Thriving in Your Second Spring with Lois Keay-Smith

Unlock the secrets to navigating your "second spring" with career counsellor and reinvention coach Lois Keay-Smith. Lois joins us to share modern job search strategies and the importance of staying active and connected. This episode is packed with actionable insights that will empower you to embrace your next chapter with strength and purpose. 

Lois shares invaluable insights on recognizing and managing perimenopause and menopause symptoms, and how these often-overlooked changes can impact your career and personal life. 

We'll also dive into the revolutionary ideas presented in "The 100-Year Life" by Linda Gratton and Andrew Scott, challenging the standard concepts of retirement and exploring the potential longevity of modern life.

We also tackle the complex experiences of women dealing with redundancy and ageism to the emotional toll of job loss, this episode offers practical strategies to navigate these challenges with resilience and confidence. 

Hear personal stories and expert advice on self-care, from nutrition and exercise to finding medical professionals who specialize in women's health during menopause, ensuring you maintain your well-being through this transformative phase.

Join us around the Warm Table for a conversation you won't want to miss!

Books Lois recommends:

• Revolting Women, Lucy Ryan
• Working Identity, Herminia Ibarra
• Magnificent Midlife, Rachel Lancaster
• The New Menopause, Dr May Claire Haver
• The Late Bloomer, Clarissa Pinkola Estes (Audio series, same author of Women Who Run with the Wolves)
• Second Spring, Kate Codrington
• Menopausing, Davina McCall
• The Upgrade, Louann Brizendine
• Women Rowing North, Mary Pipher

Warm thanks to:
Sponsor: Females Over Forty-five Fitness in Victoria Park
Sound Engineering: Damon Sutton
Music: William A Spence
... and all our generous and inspiring guests around the warm table this season!

Support the show

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My Warm Table, translated into Italian is Tavola Calda. These were the words my Papa used to describe a table of good friends, good food and good conversation. I always aim to create a tavola calda in my life and I hope this podcast encourages you to do so too!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
I've definitely started to notice there are some
common themes.
There's health changes, there'ssometimes health challenges as
well at this age and stage, butalso, just you know that kind of
thinking about who am I, wheream I going next?
And, yeah, you know whetherwork that I've chosen or fallen
into or maybe accommodated forfamily or other reasons, whether

(00:27):
that's actually going tosustain me into the next stage.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Thanks for joining me , sonia Nolan, around the warm
table, or the tavola calda as myItalian papa used to call a
welcoming table of acceptance,positivity and curiosity.
My Warm Table podcast aims tocreate that and more, as we
amplify stories of WesternAustralians making our
communities better.
My Warm Table, season 3, isproud to be sponsored by Females

(00:56):
Over 45 Fitness, with a studioin Victoria Park and also online
all over Australia.
So now please take a seat andjoin us for season three as we
explore stories of hope.
I'm delighted to welcome Lois KSmith back to the warm table.
Lois is a career counsellor andreinvention coach.

(01:19):
Over the last two decades she'shelped people find confidence
through their confusion and workout their why and their way
into the next chapter of theirwork life.
You may remember Lois fromseason one of my Warm Table
podcast, when we talked abouther Churchill Fellowship, a
prestigious opportunity whichshe used to research how to help
adults navigate their careerinterruption, career reinvention

(01:42):
and work life after cancer.
It was a great discussion, somake sure you check back through
the Warm Table catalogue andcatch up on that conversation
too.
Today, lois and I are going tofocus in on the second spring, a
time of reinvention for womenin midlife.
It's a topic I'm very familiarwith and I can vouch that Lois

(02:02):
was a wise mentor and supportwhile I navigated my way through
this time.
So let's get stuck into somemore warm table wisdom.
Welcome, lois.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Thank you, Sonia, wonderful to be back.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Oh, it's so great to be able to have another warm
table conversation.
Of course, we've had lots ofwarm table coffees and
conversations since we lastrecorded anything, and that's
why it's really timely to getyou back and have a conversation
about what you're calling thesecond spring.
Tell me more about that.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, it's interesting, I think over the
years of working with lots ofdifferent clients, you know men
and women and younger people andolder people, and you know
elite athletes and just peoplegoing through cancer.
You know all sorts of differentpeople.
But I often reflect on my ownjourney and those around me who
are similar, I guess, in termsof gender and life stage and

(02:56):
various things like that, andI've definitely started to
notice there are some commonthemes, yeah, and I'm sure you
can relate, Sonia, to some ofthese.
But yeah, there's healthchanges.
There's sometimes healthchallenges as well at this age
and stage, but also just youknow that kind of thinking about

(03:16):
who am I, when am I going next?
And, yeah, you know whetherwork that I've chosen or fallen
into or maybe accommodated forfamily or other reasons, whether
that's actually going tosustain me into the next stage.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
So they're interesting themes and I can
relate.
Another conversation I havewith a lot of my girlfriends in
this similar age and I guesswe're talking post-50, is that
sort of their age group or not?

Speaker 1 (03:45):
generalising, I think when you start talking about
changes that are going on bodily, you know, in terms of
perimenopause and menopause,it's actually really interesting
because some women can startfeeling that even in well,
actually in their late 30s, butI think generally 40s yes, but
unfortunately it's not oftenrealised until a lot later.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
It's like, oh, I was probably in that I think so
absolutely.
Hindsight's a wonderful thingisn't it?

Speaker 4 (04:14):
Yeah, exactly right.
Rear-view mirror yes.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
So let's consider, we're looking, 45 plus maybe.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, let's say that.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
And I know with my group of friends you know 50
plus and a lot of us are alsotalking about.
For some it's just like youknow, your last big job.
You know you really want to gohard in this last big job, yeah,
and that's an interesting one.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Lots of people who talk to me, I do this thing
called a career chat, so I havelots of different people talking
to me and potentially, you know, some of them become clients,
one-on-one and in groups.
And, yeah, they'll often startwith that.
They'll say, oh well, I've gota good 10 years left, you know.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
And I think have you how do?

Speaker 1 (04:54):
you know that it could be 20.
It could be longer, it could beshorter, and maybe they've been
to their financial planner orsomething and they're in that
state of mind where they'resaying, oh, I've got 10 years
and I've got to make the most ofit, and I can understand that
thinking.
But I love the book and youknow we've chatted about we'll
have some show notes for all thedifferent titles of books that
I've been reading lately.

(05:15):
But this one I read a couple ofyears ago and I've done a
reread of, but it's called the100-Year Life.
It's by Linda Gratton andAndrew Scott.
It's excellent.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Fantastic, I've read that too, that power of
reinvention and understandingthat, yeah, I think they're
talking about.
You're going to live untilyou're about 100.
That's the thing.
So why would you retire at, say, 60 or 65?
Because then you've still gotanother 35 years left to do
something meaningful.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
And I think when you put the women's lens on this and
funnily enough, my backgroundbefore you know nearly 20 years
as a career counsellor andcareer coach was in finance.
But also before I changed over,I was working in superannuation
and I actually belonged toWomen in Super, which was just
like a small clutch of women whoworked in super at the time in

(06:06):
WA it was across the country.
I think we had lunch and therewas like about five of us or
something like that, and yet nowit's a massive organisation.
They run the Mother's DayClassic, you know.
They do amazing work andfundraising and shout out to the
Women in Super bunch.
But yeah, you know, the thingis that women have gaps in their
employment they have, you know,their super is considerably

(06:27):
less often.
You know there's manydifferences in how the
trajectory of their career oftenhas gone and they maybe even
have been.
I think the term sometimes usedis a trailing spouse.
You know there's lots ofreasons why for some women their
career doesn't quite look howthey might have thought it would

(06:49):
at that age, at even 50, andthen go I've got another 10 or
15 years left.
So I think for some it's likeoh well, that hasn't panned out,
I need to do more.
But I think the thing is thatyou only maybe have a finite
time limit on it if you're notreally enjoying what you do.
So that's the other point is,when people say, I've got 10

(07:11):
years left, I better just knockit out and do something with it
and make the dollars, yeah great, that's important Absolutely.
We all need to make ends meetat the moment especially, you
know, cost of living rises andall of those things.
So it's just an interestingpoint of view and it always
surprises me.
So I gently challenge peopleand say, oh, what do you?
mean, and you know, andsometimes we're going by an old

(07:32):
radio station, you know we tunedinto the channel of you study,
you work, you retire and then,unfortunately, you die, you know
, and, and we didn't didn't liveas long.
So I think, with all of this,of course, it's like how can you
keep yourself well?
And I think that is very much atheme of our discussion as well
.
It's not all about career andfocus on job or work or

(07:55):
self-employment.
It's actually how can you livewell, and that means doing
something that you're passionateabout, that fires you up, you
feel purposeful, it's meaningfulto you.
In whatever sense the passionmight come from a hobby.
It doesn't have to come fromyour work necessarily, but it's
all entwined, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Totally agree, and in fact I like to call it
full-time life not full-timework.
Yes, and I was just having thatdiscussion with one of my team
members the other day who wasworried about taking some time
off.
Oh, I need another day off andI'm so sorry and I think I'm
going to.
You know, just think about work.
And I said just stop for aminute.
I said this is full-time life.

(08:34):
Work is obviously a big part ofit, but it's not the full-time.
So let's reconfigure how wethink about it.
And so I think that thatfull-time life for me has helped
me understand that work is areally big part and it's
something that really fills mycup in many different ways, but
the health and wellbeing and thefamily and the connections and

(08:57):
the rest and recreation andeverything else that is
important and that makes me abetter employee, but it also
makes me a better mother andwife and friend.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
You know it's full-time life.
That's a really good way tolook at it absolutely, and it's
interesting when you'reconsidering all these things and
chugging away in your work andthings are going pretty well and
then maybe you know themenopause comes along.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
You say that with you know hushed silence.
Say it out loud.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
I missed the memo.
When it was the menopause, Isort of just called it menopause
and then I realised I'm doingit wrong.
But I love there's a great bookI've just been reading,
actually Eleanor Mills.
Much More to Come.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Love that title.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, it's cool and she's got a website and a
membership called Noon and Iimagine that's.
Maybe you get to Noon andyou've still got the rest of
your life, you know, until theother, until midnight, and she
talks about queen ages.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Oh, I just recently heard that term.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yes, it's lovely, great.
So I guess you know theteenager has the change and the
hormones and they've got thewhat am I going to do next with
my life and all of that sort ofthing.
So she's kind of turning thaton.
women of our ilk and sayingwe're queenages and I quite like
that.
And there's a lovely quotethere's so many good quotes in
that book but there's one aboutyou know that these women

(10:26):
haven't chosen to opt out ofwork, work has opted out of them
.
Oh, yes, yikes.
So sometimes and in fact, youknow, probably on an increasing
basis actually, unfortunately Ihave women who reach out to me
and say I'm in my 50s.
They sometimes say that rightup front or they tell me later

(10:49):
their age, because they'reusually having a phone call to
start with and they say I'vebeen let go, I've been, my
role's been made redundant andyou know many of us have had
that over the years or knowsomeone close to us.
I usually ask that in a seminartype setting or a workshop,
who's had a redundancy or hadsomeone close to them in their
family and over half, sometimesthree quarters of the room put
their hand up.
So it's very, very common andreally there shouldn't be any

(11:12):
shame or stigma about it.
But when someone's roledissolves or goes away or they
decide this is a toxicenvironment it's not always
something that's done to them,but they do choose to exit.
It can be really challenging towork out what to do next, and
what happens at this age,sometimes too, is that suddenly

(11:34):
it seems harder.
I noticed, even when I wastransitioning and doing some
portfolio work, I would go forsome contracts or some jobs and
it wasn't always as easy as ithad been before and I thought is
it me, is it the market, Is itmy resume?
Hopefully not, when I'm workingthat field, sharpening up my
communication documents.

(11:54):
But yeah, there are definitelysome challenges and I know you
might have experienced that,sonia, through your friends as
well, absolutely, oh yeah,absolutely.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
And myself, so I absolutely can vouch that you
start to turn very inwards andstart reflecting a lot and
thinking, yeah, wow, is itbecause I'm over 50 that I'm not
getting these jobs?
Is it because I'm over 50 thatpeople don't want to take a
chance?
But what about all myexperience and you know, the

(12:25):
thoughts in your head is prettypowerful can work against you or
it can work for you.
And I think it would be verynatural and certainly I
spiralled into that, you knowwondering, gosh, is this
something that have I had myuse-by date?
Is this it?
And yet I felt so ready forthat next step you know that

(12:48):
second spring, because I withoutwanting to make this all about
me, lois, but it is certainlysomething that resonates so
deeply, this understanding ofresetting and reinventing.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Definitely yeah.
And look, there's definitelymany cases of gendered ageism,
as it's being referred to, andthat's unfortunate.
But yeah, once you get intothat spiral of thinking, that's
it.
You know that's very hard foryou to move on.
I always say people buy energy.
So when you're job seeking orgoing back into that environment

(13:20):
, because some people take abreak and I think it's really
important to reset I love goinginto nature, that's my reset,
but we all have our own ways ofdoing that.
Connecting with others, youknow, having that belonging,
talking through these things, Ithink, whether that's with a
therapist, counsellor, you know,with a trusted friend or group
of friends.
So there's lots ofopportunities and I like to
gather women together, sometimesover high tea is always nice.

(13:48):
Yes, I do enjoy that.
It walks in the forest andcoffees and sort of what I call
pop-ups.
You know just little eventsthat just allow people to unload
and say this is what'shappening for me, but definitely
gathering that strength, havingthat reset and then getting
your ducks in a row.
So that is sometimes sharpeningyour marketing documentation,
your way that you approachgetting work, where you don't
just sit behind the screen onSeek or other wonderful job

(14:10):
boards they are, but you knowgetting out and actually
engaging and articulating whatit is you're looking for.
But when you do that, bringingthat energy, that sparkle in
your eye and that this is whyI'm great for this job and this
is what I want.
And of course, you know ifyou've had that reset and you've
had that help, you are ready todo that.
And even if you don't get thecallbacks which is always a big

(14:32):
bugbear I hate when employersdon't even reach out to say,
look, you did well, but youdidn't get the job.
We've all had the second, whereyou know you were great but you
didn't get it, you were second.
I had that when I was trying towork in not-for-profit because
I had all this quite diverse andinteresting experience.
It just wasn't innot-for-profit, so I get pipped

(14:52):
at the post, but then eventuallyI got an amazing job in
not-for-profit, which was great.
So sometimes it's being able towear that when maybe in your
younger years you just got everyjob I pretty much got a lot of
things I went for that I reallywanted.
I actually got yes, and we'veoften had that experience.
So suddenly to not getsomething, it's a little bit
disconcerting.
I do remember one lovely clientyears ago and she was quite an

(15:16):
awarded journalist.
She certainly had a greathistory and work history behind
her.
She went for a job more insocial media which she'd been
working towards and learningabout, and she went for the
interview and the young personinterviewing her said do you
know how to use a computer?
Oh my, Wow.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
Ouch yes definitely definitely yeah, and then she
started to doubt herself,unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
So we had to kind of dig out of that hole and, you
know, have some other strategies.
But yeah, so it's a real thing.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Let's go back to the reset, because I think that that
is actually probably thepivotal moment that gets you
ready for the reinvention.
Yes, and from reset it probablymeans something different to
everybody what resetting mightlook like.
For sure, for a woman goingthrough perimenopause or
menopause, I think there aresome real key things that will

(16:12):
help in the reset.
Yes, I agree, and I'd love youto talk through those, and you
know I'm happy to share someexperiences too.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
That would be great.
I think you know, definitelyhaving some time out, and I'm
often amazed at how women andmen actually but women will say,
oh, I've got all this leavesaved up, I haven't used.
I'm like, right, well, let'slook at that then.
But definitely with physicalchanges and that could be energy

(16:39):
levels.
You know I'm saying bring yourenergy and bring your game.
If you don't have any to drawon, that's a problem.
So that's actually a physicalproblem.
So I think you know, obviouslylooking after your nutrition and
your exercise and movement andall of those sorts of things and
getting around people.
But I think going to your GP isa great start and not
necessarily taking on board notto say don't follow your GP's

(17:03):
advice, but I think, when itcomes to women and hormones, I
think shopping around if you'renot happy with the answer.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Definitely, and I would highly recommend.
Finding a doctor who isspecialised in women's health
and particularly in themenopause stage Changed my life
for sure.
Finding the right doctor whowas able to listen to where I
was at, and that idea of energy.
So I remember, you know, thedoctor sent me off for a whole
heap of blood tests, which wasgreat, and then I went back to

(17:32):
see her and she said all theright things that I needed to
hear.
She said oh my goodness, sonia,I don't know how you even get
out of bed and do all of thethings that you do because
you've got nothing.
Your bloods tell me that you'vegot absolutely nothing left in
your DHEA whatever that is thatmakes your testosterone, that
gives you the energy she goes.

(17:52):
You've got nothing, it's allgone.
Your get up and go has got upand gone, it went.
It just left the building.
And so she said all of thoseright things to say.
You know, I'm impressed withthe fact that you're still
putting one foot in front of theother and you're showing up.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah totally For how long For?

Speaker 2 (18:08):
how long can you sustain that right?
And so she gave me thatscientific reason for why I was
so fatigued and tired and wasreally struggling to, you know,
get excited about the next step.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yes, yeah, and I think what can sometimes happen
is we revert back to things thatwe've done in the past that
worked, and I know for me I justwent.
I love exercise, it rechargesme, I get the endorphins, I like
movement.
You know I've danced a lot andthat sort of thing.
So but flinging myself intohigh kind of pressure exercise

(18:45):
where of course you know thewrong hormones are probably
charging up and and stresshormones and things like that.
So so it was interesting tosometimes, even when you
experiment with your reset andthen you go, actually it's
probably not the reset I reallyneed.
I know, for me, going and doingthe Cape to Cape it sounds like
a bit of a, you know, climbing amountain type of adventure and

(19:06):
off we go, but actually for meit was just like a digital detox
.
I spent a lot of time in asmall group but sort of hanging
back and just doing my own thingand really getting into nature.
So I think it's reallylistening to your body and also
trying to, I say, shoo away theshoulds, so when I say I should
be doing X, I should be doing Y,and your GPs are trying to look

(19:33):
after you holistically as bestthey can in their short
allotment of time.
So you'll hear sometimes theseshoulds and you'll go, oh yes,
and you'll start beatingyourself up about I should do
this, I should do more of that,less of that.
There's a great quote inEleanor's book about you know,
you've got all these thingspiling up with menopause, this,
this, this, this differentsymptoms for different people,
obviously.
And then I turned the page.
I was actually reading on myKindle, but I flipped the page
and then it said and then youcan't even have a glass of wine

(19:55):
because it affects you so much.
So I did have a bit of a giggleover that because I thought,
too true, that's it exactly.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
And coming back to the shoulds, I used to work with
this gorgeous man who used toteach this sort of stuff and he
would talk about don't should onme, so I really liked how he
positioned that.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
So true.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
But just talking about that reset and just being
really clear about the fact thatfor every woman it's going to
look different, but the firstthing to do is just really pause
and think about what is goingto work for you and for me.
It's going to look different,but the first thing to do is
just really pause and thinkabout what is going to work for
you and for me.
It was going to see a doctorwho understood women's health in
their 50s and looking at whatsupplements I needed, what

(20:39):
hormonal help I needed andgetting that right.
The second part was exercise,and I've not been a big
exerciser and so yeah, justlooking at strength training and
an exercise that was going toactually keep me going, yeah,
and I'm pleased to say that twoyears on I'm still doing it
Fantastic.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Fantastic.
Designed, as I understand, forwomen.
Designed for women, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
And so finding what it is that's going to increase
your physical strength, becausethat is really really important
at this stage muscle strength isreally, muscle mass is really
important.
So resetting from thatperspective and making the time
for it.
So I know now, even like nowthat I've gone back into
full-time work, there are a lotof people um on the team that

(21:25):
have to drop off kids and pickup kids and you know so the
flexible work hours are veryunderstanding for that, thank
goodness.
I look at my trip to the gym inthe morning as my taking my
kids to school time right.
Taking your muscles to school,taking my muscles to school, and
so I'll go and do a gym workoutbefore work and then I'll turn
up to work pretty much the sametime as everybody else is coming

(21:47):
in after dropping off children,so I'm sort of not feeling days
gone by.
I would feel guilty about that,you know, but now it's just
like you know, this is actuallya really important time for me
to keep my health going, whichmeans I'm going to be better in
my job.
So finding what that resetlooks like and how it can be

(22:08):
sustainable is really important.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
That's so true, and I think the reset also is a good
reflective time.
I've actually moved to using abullet journal.
I really love this concept.
Tell me what that?

Speaker 4 (22:20):
is.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
So bullet journal or dot journal.
I used to look at them and go,that looks a bit weird, where
are all the lines?
But now I really love it.
And bulletjournalcom.
Actually, Ryder Carroll came upwith this principle.
He had ADHD and he was findingit hard to keep track of
everything and he developed thissystem and was sort of you know

(22:41):
, tinkering away with it andusing it himself.
And a lady was struggling withplanning something and he said
I'll show you what I do.
And she was amazed and said, oh, you need to teach this.
So hence Bullet Journal cameinto being.
So he has, you know, somecourses and some actual Bullet
Journals you can buy and all thegood things.
But what I love about it, Iused to have quite a few
notebooks.

(23:02):
I'm not going to actually revealhow many, tell us, go on Too
many.
I moved when, when my daughtermoved out of home fairly
recently, um, I took over herlovely bigger room for my office
, um, so of course that meantmoving everything paperwork, all
sorts of old things and oldtext, stuff that can be shredded
and all of that fun stuff.

(23:22):
And yeah, I had so manyjournals, notebooks.
A lot of times I would keepfull things in them and then
file them away.
So some of them had been fullyused, but there were probably
about I think I found 18journals, yeah, and a lot of
those were partially used.
You know, like this idea of thispristine book that's got.

(23:42):
I'm going to write about thisin this journal and then you
write three pages and then yougo, yep, okay, I've done that.
And then, oh look, and I'd bedown south and I'd be in some
lovely gallery and there'd bethese journals or these
notebooks and I'd be like, oh, abrand.
I think it's the law of abrand-new notebook.
It's like you're a brand-newperson or it's a brand-new day.
You know, there's that sort ofnotion of it.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
I you know, while I might have sounded a bit judgy a
minute ago you've justdescribed me.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
So yes.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
I am that person, so.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
I'm wondering yeah, I mean, it's definitely a thing
you know.
So the lovely part and very,very simply and quickly and we
can put Bullet Journal as a linkbut really what it is like even
today I'm writing down somenotes, I'm writing down all the
books that we might, you know,refer to and that sort of thing,
but it does say the date and itjust runs on from the day

(24:30):
before.
But I can move to the front ofthe journal and write in my warm
table and about the secondspring, and then you know in
November if I want to look back,or next year or whatever, I can
go.
Oh, where was that?

Speaker 4 (24:44):
And I've written it in an index at the front and
I've written down the pagenumber, which is a little bit
hard to see, but it's 117 so Ican.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
I can do that and then I'll be able to find that.
So that that was a revelationfor me, because you can keep
everything in the one place.
So I think sometimes um,getting back to health and
linking back to that, as you'rekeeping a bit of a daily log of
what's going on in your worldand it's very bullet point, so
it's not having to write a bigreflection unless you want to.
I've been putting a littleextra little notation in of H

(25:16):
and that's health.
Oh nice, so I can maybe say ohlook, I woke up early, I didn't
sleep well, but then I sleptwell for four nights solid, and
then I didn't sleep well again.
And then I can go oh, what wasI doing on those days?
I can start seeing, because yourGP will ask you or your health
specialist will ask you.
You know how many times are youwaking up or how many times is
this happening to you, and oftenwe get that wrong, we

(25:38):
guesstimate.
So this is really a way thatyou can track even your moods or
what's going on in your day andyour time and that sort of
thing.
So I love it.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
I think that's great.
That's really, really practical.
You know a technique that'sreally practical that people can
adopt straight away.
I like that.
Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
And you know it is fairly well documented around.
You know, in our lastconversation we were talking
about with cancer, sometimeswith chemo and brain fog and
things like that, but also withhormonal changes you can at
times get more forgetful or findit harder to plan, or there's
other things that can happen.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
That's very varied for different people or you've
just got so much going on at thesame time, yeah absolutely so.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
Um.
So I think that reset is alsoabout not putting things in your
way, making life easier, and Ithink it's also about, sometimes
, what can I take away, not whatcan I keep adding, adding
adding because we're all good atdoing that and piling on a lot
of other things.
So I think for me just to recapthe reset, you know, definitely

(26:38):
awareness and getting that helpand support, staying active and
healthy, keeping on learning.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Oh, so important.
You know, that actually issomething that is really so key
and I've seen it in workplacesacross my career that, you know,
people in their 50s have got areally bad rap right, and for
some I'm going to play devil'sadvocate here in some cases
that's probably justifiedbecause they've stopped learning

(27:06):
, yeah, and they are countingthe days till retirement and
they are actually just sort ofsitting there thinking about the
good old days and how thingshave changed so much.
And, like I said, I'm playingdevil's advocate here because I
have seen it over and over againthat the workplace has changed,
the behaviours in the workplacehave changed, the laws have

(27:31):
changed, technology has changed.
You know, if we've been in theworkplace for 30-plus years,
which a lot of us have we'veseen significant changes and it
is our responsibility to change.
It really is, and I think thepeople in their 50s who do have
a bad rap unfortunately havemissed that opportunity to

(27:54):
change or refuse to change.
Yes, so you know, like I said,they're probably some harsh
words, but it is something thatI have seen over and over again
and it actually gives the restof us in our 50s who've kept
learning a bad rap too.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah, and I think also you're right, sonia,
because sometimes you know, inthe past and I can think back to
organisations I've worked forwe were actually given quite a
lot of PD and like send, you'rebeing sent on this course.
I remember sometimes thinking,well, what's this for?
Like, okay, I'll go along tothat.
You know, learning aboutcommunication style or whatever
it is, and they're always great.
But then I noticed there was abit of a shift to like I want to

(28:31):
learn something and I had toreally do a business case and
pitch for it.
And you know there wasdefinitely that shift.
I know if you work in a very bigorganization with a big L&D
department, you're probablythinking, well, that doesn't
apply to me, but for a lot of usin smaller enterprises,
not-for-profits, et cetera, yeah, that money is really watched
very carefully.
So if you want to do something,you often have to put a great

(28:52):
big business case together, getit over the line.
You might have to pay for itand then you may get half back
or some back or all of it backif you're lucky.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Or as a consultant, which I've been for most of my
life, you have to do it yourselfTotally.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
And I think, yeah, when you say about the bad rap,
I think when we're sitting hereand both, you know, have had our
own businesses and for a longtime, yeah, you're constantly
upgrading, Constantly learningand the digital side of that.
And, you know, I taught myselfhow to do quite a few different
things and stitch differentprograms together and all of

(29:26):
that kind of thing.
And, you know, learn about ZAPsand even now learning about AI.
And you can't really just say,well, that doesn't apply to me
when you see elderly people inthere fumbling for change and
then the cafe doesn't take moneyanymore because you know all of
that stuff.
It's just like how can you atleast keep up?
We don't necessarily have tosurge forward and be the leader

(29:46):
of everything, but how can youeven just keep up?
We absolutely need to learn.
In fact, I just gotmasterclasscom, which is like a.
You know, it's almost likeNetflix, but for learning and
development.
And I'm having a bit of fun withthat at the.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
Moment.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
But yeah, so we talked about, you know, keep
learning also, stay connectedand I think in our busy lives
it's very easy to lose touch.
And, of course, there's ourfriends and family and the
people we would have around ourtable, absolutely, but also, you
know, in terms of our networkand our professional network,
and that's very easy too,particularly when you do fall

(30:20):
into a bit of a hole or there'sbeen a gap or you're thinking
about what's my second screengoing to be and you might
retreat, but almost retreatright into yourself and not
really connect with people.
But once you've got it, got abit of um, you know what you're
working through, what you'reinterested in reconnecting with
people, and sometimes people sayto me I can't, I can't reach

(30:41):
out to that person.
It's been three years.
I was like you absolutely can,absolutely bond's still there
and you know we've got lovelytools like LinkedIn and other
things.
And asking other people youknow who, do you know who could
you connect me with in this newspace I want to explore?
People are so generous and theylove to help.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
And you're a wonderful connector.
Oh, I love connecting peopleand, in fact, I would also say
that that's one of the ways youcan keep learning, because
sitting and having conversationswith people who are in
different industries or doingdifferent work or exposed to
different learning opportunities, it keeps you stimulated as
well, and it's fantastic and Ican't overemphasise that.

(31:19):
You just need to ask for helpand you'll be so surprised at
the generosity and thewillingness of people to have a
coffee with you or even, youknow even a quick Teams call,
you know whatever it is, or Zoom, or Zoom.
Yeah, exactly, just a quickcall to connect and help you on
that.
Next step?

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yeah, definitely, and you know.
So, staying connected,exploring, don't be afraid of
exploring.
You know Herminia Burra talksabout in Working Identity.
You know doing thoseexperiments, trying things out,
and I think this stage of lifeis a great stage to also try out
new hobbies and pastimes.
And you know I go back to mydancing, but I actually have a

(31:59):
bit of an eye on surfing, ohreally, which is really
interesting because I'll have tocover myself for you to know,
in sync.
But I'm kind of curious.
I'm surfing curious at themoment, Surfing curious.
So stay posted on that one.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Well, I was sewing curious a little while ago and I
did a sewing course which youknow I probably should have
learned.
My mum is the best dressmakerincredible.
But I was never patient enoughto learn when I was younger and
now she's not patient enough toteach me because I think I've
had my time, but she's beenfixing and mending for me for,
you know, 50-plus years, wow.

(32:34):
But I decided I need to go andlearn sewing.
So I went with a girlfriend, wewent and did a sewing.
Well done, just one of thoseyou know part-time courses.
So, yeah, keep learning andexploring and finding little
hobbies.
Yeah, really important, it isfun.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
And then you meet, even if what you do is a total
disaster.
You meet other people, you havea laugh and you'll probably
forge new friendships.
Because I think that alsohappens to women and men
actually in life is that theycan lose friendships along the
way as well, because they're sowork-centric sometimes, and then

(33:07):
if they lose their job or theyleave their job, you know and
they're lonely.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
They've lost that network.
Yeah, absolutely, that's true.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
So keeping connected.
And then, interestingly, youknow, definitely we talked about
the holistic advice and thatcan be whole of life but also in
the health sector, you know,going a bit further out and
getting things that fill you upbut also slowing down.
And I put to unfurl oh, I likethat.
Yeah, I'm really, really keenabout cherry blossoms.
So I tend to always pull itback to the sakura and how you

(33:36):
know, your second spring is likethis lovely unfurling of the
petals, yes, and you can't saybloom hurry up.
Can you bloom in two and a halfweeks, because I really need you
to bloom.
Then you know it is an unfurlingand I think it's a different
pace for all of us.
So even you know, sometimeswomen will say, oh, I sailed

(34:02):
through menopause or whatever,and we're all different and some
of us are going to look backand go yeah, actually that was
tough, but I didn't know it atthe time.
Or some are going to find, yeah, challenges you know.
So I think it's being aware andtalking with others, but
knowing your pace and timingmight be different to others.
And, and I think, when we'relooking at work and returning to
work, or A lot of women withtheir second spring actually

(34:23):
decide I'm going to go out on myown, I'm going to start
something myself.
Maybe that's because theyexited a toxic workplace or
they've had a redundancy, butalso sometimes it's a choice and
I think being geared up forthat, letting that unfurl and
tapping into your own way ofdoing things, is really
important as well own way ofdoing things is really important
as well.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
That word unfurling reeks of wisdom, right, because
there's patience, there'sacceptance.
Yes, you know very much thatword unfurl is really totally
imbued with that.

(35:06):
So I think that that only comeswhen you're that little bit
older and wiser as well and havethe opportunity to sit in that
space and sit and be, but weneed to make that time and I
think that you know we can justcontinually be busy and
continually be captivated bybusyness and things that you
know we've always done.
Yes, so I want to look at theword menopause and the things
that you know we've always done.
Yes, so I want to look at theword menopause and the word

(35:28):
pause.
Oh, absolutely, the word pausein there is, I think, the first
step to help us on that nextjourney.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
I would agree with you Absolutely.
Yeah, Pause, reset and then youcan start to think about your
reinvention or your secondspring.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah, and in the second spring and in our 50s now
years and years ago, andunfortunately I can't tell you
where this research was, butthere was some research about
innovation and the findings werethat people are most innovative
when they're younger, so intheir sort of teens and early
20s and in their 50s plus, andthe rationale behind that is

(36:11):
that they're the stages in yourlife where you possibly have
less dependence on you and lesscommitments.
So in your early 20s you'resort of still finding your way,
you probably aren't saddled witha mortgage and children and you
know sort of the realities of alife.
And then later in your 50s iswhen you've done that often not

(36:39):
for everyone, but you've donethat and you're therefore in
that stage where you can be alittle bit more innovative and a
little bit more less shackledto make decisions that might be
a little bit more innovative anda little bit more less shackled
to make decisions that might bea little bit outside the norm.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, no, I would agree with that.
I think there's also thatelement that a lot of women talk
about as becoming a bit morebolshy or a bit more you know
better at boundaries justbecause, hey, I want to try this
new thing or I want to do thisthing, and I need to have that
space.
But luckily, sometimes that'sfreed up for them.
We do, of course, have oftenageing parents and other things

(37:10):
that are important to us as well.
That's right.
So, even at the reset, you know, looking at your values and we
sometimes just carry those overand think they're the same, but
actually I think it's a time tolook at that.
But yeah, there's definitelyshifting sands, isn't there?
There's some things that arefreeing up and then there's some
things that are emerging, yes,and that can make for confusion.

(37:31):
It can make for a confusingtime.
So, giving yourself the spaceto work through that and gently
unfurl.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
I like that.
Yes, gently, unfurl Greatwisdom, great wisdom.
What else should we know aboutthe second spring Lois?

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, I think the other thing is that we can look
back at ourselves and we can say, wow, I've got all these
amazing experiences.
Often, people you know will sayto me I don't really have
anything, I don't know what Iwant.
You know, I don't know what Ihave to bring, and it's nice to
spend the time to even listen totheir story and pick out all
these amazing things that theyhave.
So, and you're so good at that.

(38:13):
Oh, thank you, I love it.
As I say, I think I'm just nosy,I love I'm a career nerd I love
hearing people's stories andand not just what they've done
and experienced, but also, youknow, I can hear their strengths
and I can hear their valuesthrough that, but also how they
move themselves along.
And you know, sometimes I justforget oh yeah, I met that

(38:34):
person or I talked to thatperson, and then now they're
looking on and it's like, okay,but you were good at that, you
know, like so sometimes justreminding people, but yeah,
there's lots of little elementsthere, I think, that people can
dig into and start to realisewhat they've got to offer, but
also realise how much the worldis changing.
And, you know, being open,being really open, and don't be

(38:59):
scared of it.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
I think that's the other side is that you know it
can be scary starting a new jobin a new organisation, maybe
even a new sector, yeah, andthere's a whole bunch of new
technology to learn people toget to know, systems, to
understand.
That is a reality for everybody, not just because you're 50

(39:20):
plus.
Yeah, exactly, and so I thinkyou know, taking the time to
acknowledge that, yeah, there'sgoing to be a whole lot of
change and a whole lot of newthings I'm going to need to
learn, but I'm not the only oneand it's not expected that
you're going to walk in and knowhow to do all of that
immediately.
And in most organisationsthere's incredible support to

(39:41):
help you to navigate your way ina new place.
That's right so again, giveyourself that space and time to
be the new kid on the block andallow yourself to learn and take
advice.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yes, yeah, there's.
Sometimes, I think, with thesilvers in the hair there's that
, you know.
Oh, I've got wisdom, I've gotexperience, but at the same time
, giving yourself a break.
Yeah, everyone's learning andeveryone's, you know, needs to
ask questions.
But what I've noticed aboutmore mature people in the
workplace is that they willdocument things and they will

(40:16):
ask questions and they willwrite it down so they don't ask
it again.
They've learned it.
Oh, they can find it later.
And that's almost thatonboarding process which some
organisations do really well andsome do, unfortunately, rather
poorly.
But you can always onboardyourself.
Yes, and that's going.
Who are the people I go to?
And they're often not thepeople with the title
necessarily.
It's like that person seems toalways get that done.

(40:37):
Or who can I ask?
And people in your network,beyond that particular role?
You know I've often had coffeeswith people who want to come
into, you know, the career space.
I'm always glad to talk to themabout how that went for me and
how it's changed over time andthat sort of thing.
So I think there's a lot ofwealth of wisdom around you as
well.
So not feeling like I have toknow the answers and I need to

(40:59):
keep to myself.
You can crowdsource it, you canyes, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think another piece of advice that is
useful.
It was useful for me.
Yes, is, and it's one of thoseold sayings that may sound a
little bit I don't know,pollyanna, maybe I've been
accused of that many times thatidea of if it's for you, it
won't pass you by.
I don't know if I've said thatas eloquently as the actual

(41:30):
saying, but I feel like my lifehas been living proof of that
over and over and over again andI think if we all sit and
reflect, we'll find the samethat if it's meant to be for you
, if that is the job you'resupposed to go for and get, if
you know that idea of being abridesmaid so many times that
you know you're sort of secondin line, you know, certainly

(41:51):
I've had that experience overand over again in my career too
yes, and then you look back andyou just think, oh gosh, but
look what opened up, when youknow the right thing did come at
the right time, that's right.
You know the right thing didcome at the right time, that's
right, and not not forcing itnecessarily, just keeping on
going.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, don't force it absolutely, and you know I
sometimes have a bit of a sayingof um, it's rinse and repeat a
lot of the work you do to say Ireally want to move in this
direction, whether it's a newthing, a new career or going to
you know something you knowbefore, but in a different
context.
Um, getting yourself geared upand ready for that is one thing,
but then the actual motions ofdoing it are actually quite

(42:31):
repetitive and I think sometimeswe can get a little bit bored
with that and we maybe just, youknow we don't hear back from
employers, which you know ifyou've been brought up, whether
you do respond, you know it'sRSVP means you actually do
respond, whereas, yeah, there'sthat to contend with.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
I think that's actually one of the new things
that is worth discussing the waythat the workplace has changed
in its recruitment processes,yes, so that for me had been
quite a revelation, going backin looking for, you know,
full-time work after having beena consultant for so long.
For sure, the recruitmentprocess was a lot more

(43:09):
impersonal than what it was whenI, you know, sort of, was
looking for work years before.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Definitely yeah, and I think I mean I often encourage
people to use a multi-prongedapproach to their work search so
that they're not overly relyingon one way.
I'd always say use yourstrengths so that they're not
overly relying on one way.
I'd always say use yourstrengths.
So, for example, sonia, you'reamazing with cultivating your
networks and connections andyou're very generous with them,
so you hope that comes backaround and you know and helps
you that way.

(43:35):
But obviously there's alsothings that pop up on the job
boards.
So it's looking at that, usingyou know recruiters if that's
appropriate for your sector,even doing an expression of
interest.
You know I've had clients wherethey've said can you do that?
Can you just write a letter tosome organization?
Absolutely yes.
And I've had clients you knowsenior exec clients where

(43:56):
they've said if someone wrote mea letter and said, hey, I
really want to work in yourorganization, I've got these
skills and they were appropriate, you know I've got these skills
and they were appropriate.
You know I've had severalactually.
But one guy I remember he saidthat and I said, oh, that's
great.
And he said, oh, I would alwaysinvite them in.
And he said I actually hired alab manager that way.
He said I was like, oh wow,that is so cool, so you know you
can identify and pitch reallyyourself.

(44:19):
So I think sometimes we playtoo much by the rules.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
We've been brought up a certain way that this is how
you apply and this is what youdo and you just wait and you're
patient and you wait andactually sometimes you do need
to get brought forward, and thenyou get an email to tell you
that you've missed out, eventhough you've gone for an
interview which you know back inthe day, you'd get a phone call
, of course.
Now, often you get an email tosay you've missed out, which is
highly impersonal.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
It's unusual.
Yeah, I've had clients tell methat they were offered the job,
and by email.
Wow which is quite unusual,because that's the most fun part
of hiring Sometimes, when youring up and go hey.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
I've got good news Exactly.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
So things have changed.
They have.
And even in the applicanttracking systems you know some
big companies use.
If you just send an old resumeI joke about the year 10 resume
that you did in you know careered or something and then you've
just added to it over many, manyyears and decades and you can't
really just roll that outanymore.
If it's got tables and got youknow formatting in it and things
like that, where it's it's onlyit's going to go down the

(45:19):
outshoot when you send it in toa big company who are using
these systems.
So you do need to get with theprogram.
There's definitely new thingsand new ways and I think maybe
in the old days you know ofapplying for a job, you gave
them the resume and they'd askyou questions oh, I see you've
done this, I see you've donethat, and it was almost walking

(45:40):
through a resume.
Now it's very much behaviouralinterview questions situational
interview questions and you know, I teach something called the
triple punch, where it's likethe three things you most you
have, that they most want.
So it's really making sure it'snot really all about you, it's
about them and how you fit them.
So that takes effort and timeand Huge preparation,

(46:02):
preparation and practice.
And that's why sometimes don'tworry so much.
Go along and do all thoseinterviews that are for jobs you
kind of think you like, butthey're maybe not your dream one
or the great one, and thenyou're getting practice.
You can also do role plays andall sorts of things, fun things,
mock interviews, but yeah,that'll get you ready and then
the right one does come along.

(46:23):
It really does.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
It, but, yeah, that'll get you ready, and then
the right one does come along,doesn't it, sandra?
It really does, it absolutelydoes, absolutely does, and all
of those interviews were greatpractice for that.
Exactly, yeah, absolutely.
And just coming back to some ofthe other changes in the way
that people apply for jobs.
Sometimes you've actually gotto do a little video to answer

(46:44):
questions and, again, reallyimpersonal.
But yeah, all of these it'sjust.
I think it's important to talkabout it because, as we move
into the second spring and ifyou haven't been in the job
market for a while,understanding these new
approaches is important, so thatyou don't take it personally
and that you're prepared to stepoutside your comfort zone For

(47:07):
sure.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
And the video is a big one, because I've had a few
ladies who say, oh, you know, Ihate that idea of being on video
and they obviously want someoneyounger.
But we've talked about that andsaid, well, not necessarily,
and it's a great skill todevelop.
So even you know where theyposition.
If they're just using theirphone, making sure it's
positioned well and theypractise what they have to say

(47:30):
and look, you can usually doabout 100 takes of that and pick
the best one it's only some ofthe organisations say 5, 4, 3, 2
, 1 and you have to answer.
They're a bit trickier, but youcan still prepare, get that
ready, test it out on Zoomrecord yourself.
There's lots of littlestrategies there to get you up
to speed with it.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yeah yeah, you'll surprise yourself.
You will, I agree, I agree, andI think we come back to again
the word pause.
Yes, pause and unfurl I thinkthey're the big takeouts from
our conversation today, lois,yeah, but give yourself the time
to do this.
So, stepping into your secondspring, you need your spring in

(48:12):
your step.
I'm just going to use a punthere.
Yes, absolutely do, but inorder to get that, you do really
need to be quite deliberate andthoughtful about what that next
step is going to look like.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yes, I think you know from my business career wisdom,
I use the tree analogy a lotand if you think of your second
spring as being that beautifulsakura blossom, you know the
tree is very grounded, the rootsgo very wide and deep.
So making sure you are groundedand for me that's often going

(48:45):
out in nature if I've had toomuch tech and getting around
people that, yeah, that lift youup and you feel good around and
that sort of thing and yetgetting your health on track all
of those things are going tohelp you to replenish, Getting
the information you need, butnot overdoing that and
saturating that.
So, even though we were talkingabout learning earlier, making

(49:07):
it early on more specific towhat you need to learn or what
you'll need for that next role,you don't need to do a master's
degree in absolutely everythingyou know, you could even do a
short course or a MOOC, or youknow, udemy, coursera, linkedin,
learning.
One of those short courses isoften enough, just to you know,
upskill you in the lingo ofsomething new.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
And also just through those courses, especially if
they are with other colleagues,other people, you do meet people
in the industries.
That will then open doors goingforward, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
Yeah, you can get around, you know even meetups or
, yeah, short sort of seminarsand things like that.
So there's so much, there'sabsolutely so much.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
And following all of those on LinkedIn, definitely,
if you're not on LinkedIn, geton LinkedIn.
For sure I run workshops onLinkedIn.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Yeah, you do, and people are amazed what they can
do.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
What is there?
That's right yeah yeah, yeah,Not only reaching out to people
in the networks but reaching outto people in the networks, but
also what you can attract in.
Yeah, so we're talking aboutresetting and reinventing.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
We're talking about unfurling and pausing and a
whole plethora of books thatyou've read that we put in as
show notes, absolutely mainlyabout women and midlife, and
there's a lovely one that's anaudio series the Rest of Books,
but the Late Bloomer by ClarissaPinkola Estes, who is the sort
of curator and author of Womenwho Run With the Wolves, oh yes,

(50:34):
which is an amazing book.
Amazing book, yeah.
So that's quite lovely becauseit's an audio series and she's
narrating a lot of stories.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Oh, I'll have to tap into that it's absolutely
beautiful.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
I'm ready to sort of have another listen.
Actually, I've listened to it alittle while ago, but yeah,
we've got quite a few here thatI think will resonate.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
I just think that it's such an exciting time Like
I'm super excited about my 50s.
I'm excited about the fact thatI've been so blessed to have the
opportunity to raise my kids.
They're now independent, stillliving at home, but you know,
they've got their lives andthey're forging their paths, and
so my role has changed as amother, as the person you know,

(51:21):
running the household with myhusband who does pretty much
everything else, and I'm excitedthat this is my time to be
uninterrupted and keep movingforward in a path that I'm
really passionate about, and Ifeel like I've got so much to
give.
It's very exciting, and so Ireally feel like I've found my
second spring, now Beautiful,after going through a little bit

(51:41):
of a dark winter wondering oh,am I too old?
Are my skills even relevant?
Will I ever get to the careerheights that I have wanted to
achieve?

Speaker 1 (51:52):
You know that winter is real, yes, and the spring is
just so satisfying when it doescome, that's it and it is a
seasonal thing, so it's you know, but obviously not just waiting
it out but doing some things,having that rest, having that
pause, but also then buildingtowards.
And you know we need more womenin important roles in society

(52:16):
beyond certain years.
You know, like we needdiversity in all its ways and I
think sometimes with DEI weforget age it's sort of the last
one and yeah, it's people andtheir energy and what they bring
.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
Yeah, and that wisdom and life experiences in
different sectors, and even yourexperiences as a parent, your
experiences as somebody caringfor older parents, your
experiences in living indifferent countries there's so
much that you bring to anorganisation and to your next

(52:53):
career that I just think weshould never underestimate
ourselves.
And you know, working withsomeone like you, Lois, to
actually help people identifytheir strengths and their why
and their what next is reallycritical part of that unfurling.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
Yeah, thank you, sonia, because I find it's hard
sometimes to do all of this byyourself and on your own and on
yourself, and turn inwards andall of those things.
So having someone witness you,listen to you but then also be
able to help you with somestrategies is helpful and
generous people like yourselfwho you know spend the time,

(53:30):
yeah, to listen and to connectand those sorts of things that,
yeah, no one is an island, no,very true.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
So it's exciting, so I'm so pleased we've had this
conversation because I and Ireally do hope that it resonates
with a lot of women who mightbe at that point of
perimenopause or wondering abouttheir next step or, you know,
in their late forties or evenlate fifties, and thinking that
they've still got so much moreto offer but aren't sure how to

(54:01):
position themselves to takeadvantage of the next spring.
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
It's not too late, you're not too old, you can
unfurl.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
I love it.
Lois, thank you so much forcoming back around the warm
table today.
It's been a delight to havethis conversation with you.
Thank you so much, Sonia.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
It's been wonderful.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
Hi, I'm Kelly Riley, creator and head coach of
females over 45 fitness, or foffas we are fondly called.
Our studio is located invictoria park and we are also
online all across australia.
At foff, our members range inage from 45 through to 84 years
of age at the moment.
They're amazing examples ofhope.
Let's meet one of our membersnow and be inspired by her story
.

Speaker 4 (54:54):
My name is Marg.
I'm in my late 50s and I workas a receptionist at Dental
Health Services.
I love doing my FOF gymworkouts my health is so
important.
I discovered I hadosteoarthritis around four years
ago and had started to avoidcertain things like stirs and
bike riding because of the pain.
Instead of accepting this as myfate, I decided to join FOF.

(55:18):
I train for three hours a weekover three days and I'm pleased
to say that my osteoarthritis isunder control and I don't take
any painkillers now.
Hope for me means that in thefuture, as I age, I can look
forward to feeling strong andconfident.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Thanks for joining us around the warm table.
My warm table is produced,hosted and edited by me, sonia
Nolan.
It's my way of amplifyingpositivity and curiosity in our
community.
I invite you to share thisconversation with family and
friends and follow my Warm Tablepodcast on Facebook, instagram
and LinkedIn.
Also, you can subscribe andfollow my Warm Table on Spotify

(56:02):
or Apple Podcasts, and maybeeven leave a review, because it
helps others to find us moreeasily.