June 23, 2025 • 27 mins
Influencer marketing can feel out of reach for small businesses, but it doesn’t have to be. In this episode, I’m joined by Aya Saad, CEO of Vivian Agency, who specializes in helping small brands grow through strategic influencer partnerships that actually fit their goals and budgets.
We talk about how to find the right kinds of influencers (hint: smaller followings can often lead to bigger impact), what to look for beyond vanity metrics, and how affiliate-style partnerships can lower your upfront costs. Aya also shares smart ways to approach influencer outreach, red flags to avoid, and why consistency (not luck) is what makes these campaigns work.
Whether you’re in a product- or service-based business, this episode will give you a clearer, more practical view of what influencer marketing can look like when it’s done with strategy and authenticity. It’s packed with ideas you can start testing right away.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Janice Hostager (00:04):
I'm Janice Hostager.
After three decades in themarketing business and many
years of being an entrepreneur,I've learned a thing or two
about marketing.
Join me as we talk aboutmarketing, small business and
life in between.
Welcome to My Weekly Marketing.
(00:33):
Hey, hey, welcome back to MyWeekly Marketing.
Today's episode is a good one.
If you've ever wondered whatactually works when it comes to
affiliate or influencermarketing, if you've even
wondered if it's worth trying,you're going to love this
episode.
Listen, I know, when we sayinfluencer marketing, your brain
might picture million-dollarcontracts or private jets or
someone whose entire job islooking fabulous on Instagram.
(00:55):
But the truth is that you don'tneed to hire the Kardashians to
make influencer marketing workfor your small business.
In fact, partnering withmicro-influencers, which are
creators with smaller but superengaged audiences, is a way,
more effective and affordableway to do this.
Micro-influencers are people whohave already had their
(01:17):
audiences trust.
So maybe it's parenting after40, holistic wellness, career
reinvention or quirky handmadegifts.
Whatever it is, their followerslisten to them.
As a small business, you canoffer free product, an affiliate
commission, a bundle ofservices or even just a
thoughtful partnership.
(01:38):
It's not about throwing lots ofmoney at reach.
It's about buildingrelationships with people who
already talk to their customersthat you're trying to reach, and
when it's done well, that kindof word of mouth can snowball.
So today, on this episode, I'mchatting with the brilliant Aya
Saad.
Aya is CEO of the Vivian Agency, which is an affiliate and
(02:00):
influencer marketing agency.
They help clients all aroundthe world launch and manage
affiliate and influencermarketing programs, even if the
business is small like yours.
So grab your copy, yournotebook or both, unless you're
driving of course and let's divein.
Good morning, Aya.
Thank you for joining me todayand welcome to My Weekly
(02:20):
Marketing.
Aya Saad (02:23):
Thank you, and thank you for having me.
Janice Hostager (02:27):
So let's start with the basics.
A lot of my customers are smallbusiness owners and they don't
really even know where to startwith influencer marketing,
especially if they have a smallbudget.
How do you recommend thatpeople start out?
Aya Saad (02:44):
Yeah, I'd say the very first thing that any business
owner should do is to do theirresearch first.
So, first of all, they need todo the research and come up with
a strategy according to thatresearch, Just because if you
dive into affiliate andinfluencer marketing without a
plan, you'll probably get lost.
So you need to do your research.
(03:06):
Look at your market, look atsimilar brands, look at your
competitors.
How they are collaborating withaffiliates and influencers.
What are they offering them interms of commissions, in terms
of value offering?
Are they offering them freeproducts?
Are they offering them certainpercentages of commission
bonuses, incentives?
(03:27):
And look at the industry rangefor commissions in your industry
.
Look at different collaborationtypes.
So, for example, you cancollaborate with nano and micro
influencers through theaffiliate program.
So those influencers can becomeyour affiliate and you don't
have to have a big budget forthat.
(03:48):
All you have to do is have themjoin your affiliate program,
send them a product, ask them toactually use the product, make
content about it, and they willbe compensated through
commissions that come from sales, through their affiliate link
or discount code.
So this is a way to start.
It might not work for the macro, mega and celebrity influencers
(04:09):
when you don't have a bigbudget.
However, if you work with nanoand micro influencers who have
close-knit communities, who havehigh engagement rates with
their audience, have done thisbefore with other brands, you
are very likely to find a lot ofsuccess when working with them
and you don't have to invest alot in advance.
You will just be investing theproduct that you give to them as
(04:32):
a gift in order for them to tryand share their own authentic
experience, and you can actuallyget a lot from this.
So you get a promotion on theirsocial channel.
You get lovely content that, ifthey tag you as a collaborator,
for example, on your socialmedia, it also shows up on your
accounts.
So you're getting usergenerated content from that.
You could ask permission toreshare that content while
(04:55):
giving them credit for it.
So you get a lot of it by justbuilding good relationships with
those influencers and becausethey have a engaged audience and
audience that really trusttheir recommendations, they are
very likely to make sales foryou and their audience is very
likely to be convinced andinfluenced by their experience
(05:17):
with your product or services,and they definitely have the
influence to get you thosebuyers and get you those new
customers if you provide themwith the tools and the value
offering and your value offeringdoes not have to be a big chunk
of money in advance.
Janice Hostager (05:40):
Okay, so a couple of things that you
mentioned that I have follow upquestions on.
First of all, how do you findout the information?
Do you just reach out to theindividuals and ask them about
their commissions and that sortof thing?
Aya Saad (05:51):
So typically when you're doing your research,
initially from similar brands inyour industry and from your
competitors, you can know therange of commissions their
affiliate programs is offering,because most of the time it's
publicly displayed on theiraffiliate program page.
Or if you just do a simplegoogle search about the industry
(06:11):
standard, let's say, for aclothing brand, the industry
standard is around maybe 10 to20 percent.
If it's not something that issuper luxurious, it's just
something for maybe daily wearor sportswear, something that's
for daily use.
So you'll probably find thatthe commission standard is
between 10 and 20%.
And then what you need to do isto structure that offer
(06:35):
properly to provide the bestvalue for your influencers and
affiliates.
So maybe you're not able tooffer them the whole 20%, but
you can offer them 10%commissions and then a 10%
discount for their audience, andthat way they're also extending
the value to their audience aswell, and it's very likely that
(06:56):
an audience would buy using adiscount code, even if it's a
very small amount, rather thanwith no discount at all,
especially with social mediainfluencers, because it's so
easy for people to grab, likethe five, six letter discount
code from the video descriptionor if it's similar, let's say,
to their social media usernameor something.
It's super easy for people tograb that discount code and so
(07:20):
you're able to track any salesthat are coming from that
influencer and also you'll beable to attribute commissions to
them.
And in order for you to do that,you need to have a system in
place, and there are a lot ofaffiliate softwares and
platforms that you can use,depending on your website
builder.
So, for example, if somebody ison Shopify, there is, I'd say,
(07:44):
over 100 SaaS products.
There are so many of them.
Some of them even offer freetrials in the beginning.
You can start with somethingthat is very small and then
scale and upgrade and get thefancy features later on when you
have a more establishedaffiliate program.
But you just need to startsomewhere, even if it's small.
You just need to have a placeto track the sales and traffic
(08:07):
coming from your affiliates andinfluencers.
You need to identify the rightaffiliates and influencers for
you.
They need to be relevant andthey need to relate to your
product as well, because if theydon't really relate to the
product, then even if they agreeto promote it, their audience
is just not going to beconvinced If it's someone who
never works out at all and thenout of nowhere they start
(08:30):
promoting a sportswear brand andthis is not their style and
they do not wear any sportswearat all.
It's not going to be convincingto their audience, but if it's
someone who's always in herleggings and sportswear, then it
makes a lot of sense to theaudience and they believe that
she actually likes the productand they want to replicate that
(08:50):
positive experience that theinfluencer has had with the
brand.
Janice Hostager (08:54):
Gotcha and they really have to know their ideal
customer to do that for sure.
Aya Saad (08:59):
Exactly, absolutely.
Janice Hostager (09:01):
So the other thing I was asking about a lot
of my listeners haveservice-based businesses.
Do you work with, or have youworked with, service-based
businesses to set up influencermarketing campaigns?
Aya Saad (09:14):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The concept of affiliatemarketing in general is to have
people who have reach to yourtarget audience or to your
target customers spread the wordabout you.
So the concept is reallyapplicable to any type of
product, service, even sometimesB2B products as well, because
(09:36):
everyone thinks that affiliateand influencer marketing is just
for B2C.
But no, actually even forservices, even for B2B products,
or even B2B services, it is avery valid concept.
You just need to find the rightpeople who are able to convey
the right message about yourproduct to the right audience.
(09:57):
That's all.
It's all about being relevant.
It's all about finding thosethought leaders, those people
that really relate to yourservice, even if they're not in
the, I'd say, the typical senseof influencer that we see on
social media, even if they'remaybe someone who has like a
Facebook group and a verytight-knit community that is
(10:18):
interested in that specificservice or in that specific
product.
It could be a thought leader orsomeone who is on LinkedIn who
is very influential.
It doesn't always have to bethe Instagram lifestyle
influencer who posts about theirdaily life.
You just need to find the rightpeople in your niche, and the
same concept would apply themore sales they refer to you,
(10:40):
then they earn commissions fromthat, and that's it.
Janice Hostager (10:44):
Gotcha.
So if I've never or mylisteners have never used
influencer marketing oraffiliate marketing, how do you
even well, let's just stick withinfluencer at this point.
How do you know if it's a goodfit for your business?
Aya Saad (10:58):
I would say how I know it's a good fit.
I, to be honest, think that itapplies to everyone.
It can be applied if done right.
It's something that I stronglybelieve in.
If you find the right people,then it is applicable and it
fits but in general if there arepeople who are in general
interested in your product,obviously, or service, because
(11:20):
you've launched that product,then there are people interested
in it and this addresses acertain pain point for them.
Then there's also someone whois talking about that, so you
need to find the people who talkabout it and then those are
your affiliates and those areyour influencers and those are
the people who are spreadingthat word of mouth.
So it's very similar to youmaybe taking your customers and
(11:45):
asking them to refer a friend,but instead this is someone who
is more influential, someone whohas a bigger community.
It's the same exact concept ofword of mouth, but you're using
people who have more influenceon their communities and they
are more visible, and because ofsocial media, this has become
easier.
I'd say, so, instead of yougetting a customer who would
(12:07):
just might be inviting five or10 of their friends or family
members to try your service orproduct, then you're getting a
ton more people just becausethat person reaches a lot more
people through social media andagain, it doesn't have to be
Instagram and the typicalconcept.
It could be that they'retalking in conferences because
(12:27):
they're very influential in thatniche.
It could be that they post onLinkedIn and they have a very
engaged community.
It could be that they even poston Reddit, post on Facebook.
It just depends on also whereyour target customers are, based
on their demographics, based ontheir age.
For example, it's very popularthat TikTok has a much younger
(12:49):
audience than the other socialmedia platforms.
So if your target audiencemaybe is slightly older, then
maybe you should be targetingother social media platforms
like Instagram or Facebook.
Another thing is that you needto be mindful of where your
target audience are presentonline.
So some services or someproducts might not even have
(13:13):
that social media presence, butthey might find their proper
affiliates and influencers inforums and communities,
sometimes even offlinecommunities.
But again, they are promotingand providing, maybe like a card
with a QR code that takespeople to the website link and
then they can buy the service orthe product from there.
(13:35):
So even if it's an offlinecommunity, that would work as
well.
It just depends on finding theright people.
Janice Hostager (13:48):
100% Love that.
So what about if you have alocal business?
Do you sort of, kind ofbrainstorm with me for a minute.
Do you look at, maybenewscasters.
I know you mentioned offline?
Could it be like the leader ofa local networking group or
something like that?
Or what else do you recommendfor people who have local brick
and mortar businesses?
Aya Saad (14:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
It could be someone who is,let's say, you have a bakery and
you have a local bakery.
So you basically seek out thefamily and mom groups and the
groups of residential areas thatare around your bakery or areas
that you may be delivering tothroughout the city or county
(14:28):
where your store is, and youeither might have an e-commerce
platform where you're able totake the orders from there, so
you're able to set up anaffiliate system and provide
those influential people, theleaders of those groups or the
admins of those groups with thelink or maybe even a discount
when people are referred by themto you.
(14:48):
So it's a matter of findingthose influential people and
giving them the tools to promoteyou.
Janice Hostager (14:56):
Is it more effective to work with like a
micro-influencer or look forsomebody with a really large
audience?
Let's say that you have abigger budget.
Do you see any difference interms of ROI or engagement
depending on how big thatinfluencer is or how many
followers they have?
Aya Saad (15:13):
Yeah, so typically, if you have a bigger budget and
you are looking to work withmuch bigger influencers, it's
definitely a great investmentbecause you're getting a lot
more eyeballs on your productand your services.
So, even if it's not directlyrelated to your sales
immediately, but it is gettingyou the brand awareness.
(15:34):
I think that typically, wheninfluencers have a larger number
of followers, then they're verylikely to have a lower
engagement rate, just becauseit's a math thing.
When you have a larger audience, then it's very likely to have
a smaller amount of them engaged.
But if you don't have thebudget, then focus on the nano
(15:56):
and micro influencers under50,000 followers who have really
good engaged audience.
And also, whenever you'reworking with bigger influencers,
you need to take a look andanalyze the authenticity of
their followers, because at thispoint, followers can be bought.
It could be just a number.
So you need to ensure thatthere are actually people behind
(16:17):
that big number of followersand people who are going to be
engaged and actively engagedwith that influencer throughout
their posts.
Janice Hostager (16:26):
How do you tell if somebody has some bot
followers or purchase followers?
Aya Saad (16:32):
So we typically use tools for that.
So there are a lot ofinfluencer analytic platforms
that some of them are evenavailable for free.
Some of them are maybe a bitmore advanced, so they are
available at a different pricing.
It depends.
But you, every time you areinvesting a big amount of money,
(16:53):
or even if it's not big, ifyou're investing money in
advance with an influencer, youneed to first ask them for their
own analytics of their profile,but then also do your own
research and analyze theirprofile outside using external
tools to ensure that the numbersadd up.
There is going to be somediscrepancies depending on the
(17:13):
point of time where thoseplatforms would pick up the data
.
100% that's going to happen,but it needs to be discrepancies
that make sense also.
So the influencer can't saylike my views are 100,000 on
every post, and then you look attheir profile and you look at
your tool and they're barely1000 views per post, so it
(17:35):
doesn't make a lot of sense.
But if it's like 100,000, andthen you find just a slightly
smaller number, then okay, yeah,it's just a small discrepancy.
It makes sense because it doeshappen that each platform would
give you some discrepanciesdepending on the point of time
where it grabbed the data.
Janice Hostager (17:51):
Are there any other red flags that people
should look for when choosing aninfluencer or signing a
contract?
Aya Saad (17:59):
I'd say if the influencer doesn't really show a
lot of interest in your productand for them this is just
another deal then I don't reallyrecommend working with that
influencer because your productis not gonna get the attention
you want it to get from them.
If your partnerships need tomean something, they need to
(18:22):
mean something to the influencerand they need to mean something
to you.
So if you're investing moneywith an influencer, they need to
be very aligned with yourvalues.
They need to be already acustomer for your brand.
They are the person that isgonna buy that brand anyways.
Loves your brand genuinely doeshave that relationship with you
(18:43):
, because otherwise it doesn'tsound authentic and if you're
just another deal on the table,you're just not gonna get that
message properly out there,because people can sense when
somebody really really likessomething and when it's just the
next promotion that they had todo..
(19:06):
.
Janice Hostager (19:06):
Right, right, yeah, so take us through the
steps that you or a businesssmall business owner would go
through when setting up aninfluencer campaign.
So what does it look likebehind the scenes?
Aya Saad (19:16):
So behind the scenes for us, I'd say we always start
with research, so getting toknow the brand, their target,
their market and theircompetitors to ensure that the
strategy that we come up with isactually going to make them
stand out.
And then the second thing wouldbe the strategy, and the
strategy is determining who youwant to have as your affiliates
(19:37):
and influencers.
What are you going to offerthem?
Because you need to have anoffer in place.
It doesn't have to be set instone.
It needs to also have someflexibility and room for
negotiation.
However, you need to have anoutline of what you're able to
offer on a minimum level and amaximum level.
Those are your limits and howmuch exactly you could offer.
Also, what are yourexpectations from those
(20:00):
affiliates and influencers?
Are you mainly focusing on thesales, so you want the
influencers themselves to have asales approach, or you want
them to be the type of peoplewho are after the brand
awareness more, or you want amix?
You need to also have certainexpectations and what you are
wanting to achieve from youraffiliate and influencer
(20:21):
marketing program.
You would also need to do a lotof research and picking people
and go for quality over quantity.
You need to be consistent withyour outreach because many, many
times you reach out to someone,it's not that they're not
interested, it's not that theymean to ghost you, but these
people also have lives and itjust happens that your email
(20:44):
fell through.
You reached out to them at areally bad time in their life.
These things happen and manytimes when we are very
consistent with outreach andfollow-up, of course without
being spammy, but beingconsistent meaning letting them
know that you have not forgottenabout them and this deal is
still on the table if they'rewilling to take it.
Sometimes we've reached out tosomeone at month one never had a
(21:07):
response from them, despite thefollow-ups, and then we reach
out six months later and theyare so excited, can't believe
we're actually reaching out tothem.
They've seen the product, theyreally love it and they want to
be a part of it, and theyactually never saw that first
email we sent out.
Janice Hostager (21:23):
So consistency,
Aya Saad (21:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Janice Hostager (21:28):
And then at that point it really becomes
about the negotiation, and thenyou put together a contract, is
that it?
And then how long does acampaign typically run?
Aya Saad (21:38):
So I'd say for affiliate marketing, the
campaign can be a lifetimecampaign.
So as long as they're promotingyour product, they can earn
commissions from that, becausethey're only earning as long as
they're making the sale.
So for affiliate marketing andwhen influencers are your
affiliates, meaning earning oncommission basis, then that's
something that's very long term.
(21:59):
It can be there as long as theywant to be a part of the
program and as long as you havethat program live and running.
However, with more specificinfluencer campaigns, the range
depends.
So it could be like a one-timething that you reach out for
maybe a specific campaign.
Let's say you are doing aspring collection and you want
(22:21):
influencers to be promoting thatcollection specifically, but
that's it.
So you're only running thatpromotion for the time that this
collection is available.
However, if you or it could bemaybe about a discount for a
certain occasion, like a holidaydiscount or something like that
, or it can be campaigns fordifferent purposes.
So you can run a campaign forone month and the objective of
(22:44):
that campaign is this, and thenanother campaign for another
month for a different objective.
I wouldn't say there is like aminimum or a maximum.
You can run those campaignsdepending on your priorities and
your needs.
And also, of course, if you aredoing something that is a fixed
fee campaign that where you'repaying influencer a fixed fee
per content piece or per acertain amount of content
(23:08):
pieces, you need to be verymindful of your budget and how
you're able to split that budgetbetween different influencers,
because I don't recommendespecially if you're still just
testing things out, do not putall your eggs in one basket and
invest all your budget into oneinfluencer.
It's better to have differentinfluencers, different types of
your customer personas, alsopeople who are approaching your
(23:31):
product from different angles ofpromotion, so you can see what
has worked best.
Janice Hostager (23:37):
Interesting, it sounds like for a smaller
business.
Actually, an affiliate type ofsetup would work a little better
, right?
Because they're constantlypromoting on their own schedule
and they will just get apercentage of what they sell,
correct?
Aya Saad (23:56):
Yeah, and within that affiliate program that you have
long term.
You can actually have campaignsrunning within that.
So, for example, you can say,okay, everyone, for the rest of
June if the best 10 videos wouldget an extra 5% commissions on
all their sales.
Or if you publish a video inthe summer season, you will get
(24:17):
a $50 bonus, for example.
You can do so many things andplay around and we always
recommend doing these thingsbecause it makes your affiliates
stay engaged and stay excitedabout your product, excited
about your program.
Whenever you have a new productlaunch, select your top
affiliates and send them thatproduct before it's even live on
(24:38):
the website.
They would really appreciatethat.
It goes a long way for them andyou will have your own like
pre-launch campaigns withouteven having to ask for it.
So it's also a great way tobuild those relationships,
because if you build thoserelationships right with your
affiliates, then you're going tohave them promoting you long
term.
Janice Hostager (25:00):
Love it, love it.
So what's one piece of advicethat you give to a business
owner who's maybe still on thefence about this?
Do you think they should giveit a try?
Do you think we should all giveit a try and see what works?
Or what's your best advice?
Aya Saad (25:13):
My advice would be just if you want to give it a
try, you need to understand thatit is a lot of work.
It's not like ads.
It's not something that's goingto give you immediate results
and you can see immediately ifit's working or not.
It's something that you need towork on.
So you need to have the time toinvest into that and you need
(25:33):
to have a proper plan, becauseotherwise you would be unfair
towards the concept of affiliatemarketing if you decide that
it's not working for you and youjust haven't tried it properly.
So if you don't have the time toinvest into it, seek support.
If you don't have the budgetfor that, then maybe just table
that for now, until you actuallydo have the time and the tools
(25:57):
and everything to invest into it, because long term it can have
amazing results on your business.
It grows exponentially At somepoint.
If you build thoserelationships correctly, you
don't even have to reach out topeople anymore.
People are reaching out to youbecause they've seen all those
influencers talking about yourproduct and they want a bit of
that too.
So if you build thoserelationships right, at some
(26:21):
point the affiliate programwould become self-sufficient,
actually.
Janice Hostager (26:26):
Love it, love it.
So where can people learn moreabout you or affiliate marketing
or your agency, or tell us howto get in touch with you?
Aya Saad (26:34):
Yeah, absolutely, my name is Aya.
I'm CEO of Vivian Agency.
You can reach us out atvivianagencycom.
I believe Janice will have thelinks with the episode.
Yeah, exactly, you can reachout to us via the website form.
You can reach out to medirectly at ayavivianagencycom
or you can message me onLinkedIn and the show notes will
(26:55):
also have that link.
Janice Hostager (26:57):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, Aya.
We've learned a lot today aboutinfluencer marketing.
I appreciate your time, thankyou.
Aya Saad (27:05):
Thank you so much for having me.
Janice Hostager (27:07):
So are you ready to try out some affiliate
marketing?
For more information aboutanything we talked about today,
visit myweeklymarketingcom.
Forward slash 113.
If this episode gave you ideas,I would love to hear about them
.
Screenshot the episode, tag meat Janice Hostager Marketing at
Instagram and tell me one ideayou're excited to try.
(27:28):
And hey, if you want morebehind the scenes tips and
strategies like this one, makesure you're subscribed to My
Weekly Marketing.
Thanks so much for joining metoday.
See you next time.
Bye for now.
I'm Janice Hostager.
After three decades in themarketing business and many
years of being an entrepreneur,I've learned a thing or two
about marketing.
Join me as we talk aboutmarketing, small business and
life in between.
Welcome to My Weekly Marketing.
(00:33):
Hey, hey, welcome back to MyWeekly Marketing.
Today's episode is a good one.
If you've ever wondered whatactually works when it comes to
affiliate or influencermarketing, if you've even
wondered if it's worth trying,you're going to love this
episode.
Listen, I know, when we sayinfluencer marketing, your brain
might picture million-dollarcontracts or private jets or
someone whose entire job islooking fabulous on Instagram.
(00:55):
But the truth is that you don'tneed to hire the Kardashians to
make influencer marketing workfor your small business.
In fact, partnering withmicro-influencers, which are
creators with smaller but superengaged audiences, is a way,
more effective and affordableway to do this.
Micro-influencers are people whohave already had their
(01:17):
audiences trust.
So maybe it's parenting after40, holistic wellness, career
reinvention or quirky handmadegifts.
Whatever it is, their followerslisten to them.
As a small business, you canoffer free product, an affiliate
commission, a bundle ofservices or even just a
thoughtful partnership.
(01:38):
It's not about throwing lots ofmoney at reach.
It's about buildingrelationships with people who
already talk to their customersthat you're trying to reach, and
when it's done well, that kindof word of mouth can snowball.
So today, on this episode, I'mchatting with the brilliant Aya
Saad.
Aya is CEO of the Vivian Agency, which is an affiliate and
(02:00):
influencer marketing agency.
They help clients all aroundthe world launch and manage
affiliate and influencermarketing programs, even if the
business is small like yours.
So grab your copy, yournotebook or both, unless you're
driving of course and let's divein.
Good morning, Aya.
Thank you for joining me todayand welcome to My Weekly
(02:20):
Marketing.
Aya Saad (02:23):
Thank you, and thank you for having me.
Janice Hostager (02:27):
So let's start with the basics.
A lot of my customers are smallbusiness owners and they don't
really even know where to startwith influencer marketing,
especially if they have a smallbudget.
How do you recommend thatpeople start out?
Aya Saad (02:44):
Yeah, I'd say the very first thing that any business
owner should do is to do theirresearch first.
So, first of all, they need todo the research and come up with
a strategy according to thatresearch, Just because if you
dive into affiliate andinfluencer marketing without a
plan, you'll probably get lost.
So you need to do your research.
(03:06):
Look at your market, look atsimilar brands, look at your
competitors.
How they are collaborating withaffiliates and influencers.
What are they offering them interms of commissions, in terms
of value offering?
Are they offering them freeproducts?
Are they offering them certainpercentages of commission
bonuses, incentives?
(03:27):
And look at the industry rangefor commissions in your industry
.
Look at different collaborationtypes.
So, for example, you cancollaborate with nano and micro
influencers through theaffiliate program.
So those influencers can becomeyour affiliate and you don't
have to have a big budget forthat.
(03:48):
All you have to do is have themjoin your affiliate program,
send them a product, ask them toactually use the product, make
content about it, and they willbe compensated through
commissions that come from sales, through their affiliate link
or discount code.
So this is a way to start.
It might not work for the macro, mega and celebrity influencers
(04:09):
when you don't have a bigbudget.
However, if you work with nanoand micro influencers who have
close-knit communities, who havehigh engagement rates with
their audience, have done thisbefore with other brands, you
are very likely to find a lot ofsuccess when working with them
and you don't have to invest alot in advance.
You will just be investing theproduct that you give to them as
(04:32):
a gift in order for them to tryand share their own authentic
experience, and you can actuallyget a lot from this.
So you get a promotion on theirsocial channel.
You get lovely content that, ifthey tag you as a collaborator,
for example, on your socialmedia, it also shows up on your
accounts.
So you're getting usergenerated content from that.
You could ask permission toreshare that content while
(04:55):
giving them credit for it.
So you get a lot of it by justbuilding good relationships with
those influencers and becausethey have a engaged audience and
audience that really trusttheir recommendations, they are
very likely to make sales foryou and their audience is very
likely to be convinced andinfluenced by their experience
(05:17):
with your product or services,and they definitely have the
influence to get you thosebuyers and get you those new
customers if you provide themwith the tools and the value
offering and your value offeringdoes not have to be a big chunk
of money in advance.
Janice Hostager (05:40):
Okay, so a couple of things that you
mentioned that I have follow upquestions on.
First of all, how do you findout the information?
Do you just reach out to theindividuals and ask them about
their commissions and that sortof thing?
Aya Saad (05:51):
So typically when you're doing your research,
initially from similar brands inyour industry and from your
competitors, you can know therange of commissions their
affiliate programs is offering,because most of the time it's
publicly displayed on theiraffiliate program page.
Or if you just do a simplegoogle search about the industry
(06:11):
standard, let's say, for aclothing brand, the industry
standard is around maybe 10 to20 percent.
If it's not something that issuper luxurious, it's just
something for maybe daily wearor sportswear, something that's
for daily use.
So you'll probably find thatthe commission standard is
between 10 and 20%.
And then what you need to do isto structure that offer
(06:35):
properly to provide the bestvalue for your influencers and
affiliates.
So maybe you're not able tooffer them the whole 20%, but
you can offer them 10%commissions and then a 10%
discount for their audience, andthat way they're also extending
the value to their audience aswell, and it's very likely that
(06:56):
an audience would buy using adiscount code, even if it's a
very small amount, rather thanwith no discount at all,
especially with social mediainfluencers, because it's so
easy for people to grab, likethe five, six letter discount
code from the video descriptionor if it's similar, let's say,
to their social media usernameor something.
It's super easy for people tograb that discount code and so
(07:20):
you're able to track any salesthat are coming from that
influencer and also you'll beable to attribute commissions to
them.
And in order for you to do that,you need to have a system in
place, and there are a lot ofaffiliate softwares and
platforms that you can use,depending on your website
builder.
So, for example, if somebody ison Shopify, there is, I'd say,
(07:44):
over 100 SaaS products.
There are so many of them.
Some of them even offer freetrials in the beginning.
You can start with somethingthat is very small and then
scale and upgrade and get thefancy features later on when you
have a more establishedaffiliate program.
But you just need to startsomewhere, even if it's small.
You just need to have a placeto track the sales and traffic
(08:07):
coming from your affiliates andinfluencers.
You need to identify the rightaffiliates and influencers for
you.
They need to be relevant andthey need to relate to your
product as well, because if theydon't really relate to the
product, then even if they agreeto promote it, their audience
is just not going to beconvinced If it's someone who
never works out at all and thenout of nowhere they start
(08:30):
promoting a sportswear brand andthis is not their style and
they do not wear any sportswearat all.
It's not going to be convincingto their audience, but if it's
someone who's always in herleggings and sportswear, then it
makes a lot of sense to theaudience and they believe that
she actually likes the productand they want to replicate that
(08:50):
positive experience that theinfluencer has had with the
brand.
Janice Hostager (08:54):
Gotcha and they really have to know their ideal
customer to do that for sure.
Aya Saad (08:59):
Exactly, absolutely.
Janice Hostager (09:01):
So the other thing I was asking about a lot
of my listeners haveservice-based businesses.
Do you work with, or have youworked with, service-based
businesses to set up influencermarketing campaigns?
Aya Saad (09:14):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The concept of affiliatemarketing in general is to have
people who have reach to yourtarget audience or to your
target customers spread the wordabout you.
So the concept is reallyapplicable to any type of
product, service, even sometimesB2B products as well, because
(09:36):
everyone thinks that affiliateand influencer marketing is just
for B2C.
But no, actually even forservices, even for B2B products,
or even B2B services, it is avery valid concept.
You just need to find the rightpeople who are able to convey
the right message about yourproduct to the right audience.
(09:57):
That's all.
It's all about being relevant.
It's all about finding thosethought leaders, those people
that really relate to yourservice, even if they're not in
the, I'd say, the typical senseof influencer that we see on
social media, even if they'remaybe someone who has like a
Facebook group and a verytight-knit community that is
(10:18):
interested in that specificservice or in that specific
product.
It could be a thought leader orsomeone who is on LinkedIn who
is very influential.
It doesn't always have to bethe Instagram lifestyle
influencer who posts about theirdaily life.
You just need to find the rightpeople in your niche, and the
same concept would apply themore sales they refer to you,
(10:40):
then they earn commissions fromthat, and that's it.
Janice Hostager (10:44):
Gotcha.
So if I've never or mylisteners have never used
influencer marketing oraffiliate marketing, how do you
even well, let's just stick withinfluencer at this point.
How do you know if it's a goodfit for your business?
Aya Saad (10:58):
I would say how I know it's a good fit.
I, to be honest, think that itapplies to everyone.
It can be applied if done right.
It's something that I stronglybelieve in.
If you find the right people,then it is applicable and it
fits but in general if there arepeople who are in general
interested in your product,obviously, or service, because
(11:20):
you've launched that product,then there are people interested
in it and this addresses acertain pain point for them.
Then there's also someone whois talking about that, so you
need to find the people who talkabout it and then those are
your affiliates and those areyour influencers and those are
the people who are spreadingthat word of mouth.
So it's very similar to youmaybe taking your customers and
(11:45):
asking them to refer a friend,but instead this is someone who
is more influential, someone whohas a bigger community.
It's the same exact concept ofword of mouth, but you're using
people who have more influenceon their communities and they
are more visible, and because ofsocial media, this has become
easier.
I'd say, so, instead of yougetting a customer who would
(12:07):
just might be inviting five or10 of their friends or family
members to try your service orproduct, then you're getting a
ton more people just becausethat person reaches a lot more
people through social media andagain, it doesn't have to be
Instagram and the typicalconcept.
It could be that they'retalking in conferences because
(12:27):
they're very influential in thatniche.
It could be that they post onLinkedIn and they have a very
engaged community.
It could be that they even poston Reddit, post on Facebook.
It just depends on also whereyour target customers are, based
on their demographics, based ontheir age.
For example, it's very popularthat TikTok has a much younger
(12:49):
audience than the other socialmedia platforms.
So if your target audiencemaybe is slightly older, then
maybe you should be targetingother social media platforms
like Instagram or Facebook.
Another thing is that you needto be mindful of where your
target audience are presentonline.
So some services or someproducts might not even have
(13:13):
that social media presence, butthey might find their proper
affiliates and influencers inforums and communities,
sometimes even offlinecommunities.
But again, they are promotingand providing, maybe like a card
with a QR code that takespeople to the website link and
then they can buy the service orthe product from there.
(13:35):
So even if it's an offlinecommunity, that would work as
well.
It just depends on finding theright people.
Janice Hostager (13:48):
100% Love that.
So what about if you have alocal business?
Do you sort of, kind ofbrainstorm with me for a minute.
Do you look at, maybenewscasters.
I know you mentioned offline?
Could it be like the leader ofa local networking group or
something like that?
Or what else do you recommendfor people who have local brick
and mortar businesses?
Aya Saad (14:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
It could be someone who is,let's say, you have a bakery and
you have a local bakery.
So you basically seek out thefamily and mom groups and the
groups of residential areas thatare around your bakery or areas
that you may be delivering tothroughout the city or county
(14:28):
where your store is, and youeither might have an e-commerce
platform where you're able totake the orders from there, so
you're able to set up anaffiliate system and provide
those influential people, theleaders of those groups or the
admins of those groups with thelink or maybe even a discount
when people are referred by themto you.
(14:48):
So it's a matter of findingthose influential people and
giving them the tools to promoteyou.
Janice Hostager (14:56):
Is it more effective to work with like a
micro-influencer or look forsomebody with a really large
audience?
Let's say that you have abigger budget.
Do you see any difference interms of ROI or engagement
depending on how big thatinfluencer is or how many
followers they have?
Aya Saad (15:13):
Yeah, so typically, if you have a bigger budget and
you are looking to work withmuch bigger influencers, it's
definitely a great investmentbecause you're getting a lot
more eyeballs on your productand your services.
So, even if it's not directlyrelated to your sales
immediately, but it is gettingyou the brand awareness.
(15:34):
I think that typically, wheninfluencers have a larger number
of followers, then they're verylikely to have a lower
engagement rate, just becauseit's a math thing.
When you have a larger audience, then it's very likely to have
a smaller amount of them engaged.
But if you don't have thebudget, then focus on the nano
(15:56):
and micro influencers under50,000 followers who have really
good engaged audience.
And also, whenever you'reworking with bigger influencers,
you need to take a look andanalyze the authenticity of
their followers, because at thispoint, followers can be bought.
It could be just a number.
So you need to ensure thatthere are actually people behind
(16:17):
that big number of followersand people who are going to be
engaged and actively engagedwith that influencer throughout
their posts.
Janice Hostager (16:26):
How do you tell if somebody has some bot
followers or purchase followers?
Aya Saad (16:32):
So we typically use tools for that.
So there are a lot ofinfluencer analytic platforms
that some of them are evenavailable for free.
Some of them are maybe a bitmore advanced, so they are
available at a different pricing.
It depends.
But you, every time you areinvesting a big amount of money,
(16:53):
or even if it's not big, ifyou're investing money in
advance with an influencer, youneed to first ask them for their
own analytics of their profile,but then also do your own
research and analyze theirprofile outside using external
tools to ensure that the numbersadd up.
There is going to be somediscrepancies depending on the
(17:13):
point of time where thoseplatforms would pick up the data
.
100% that's going to happen,but it needs to be discrepancies
that make sense also.
So the influencer can't saylike my views are 100,000 on
every post, and then you look attheir profile and you look at
your tool and they're barely1000 views per post, so it
(17:35):
doesn't make a lot of sense.
But if it's like 100,000, andthen you find just a slightly
smaller number, then okay, yeah,it's just a small discrepancy.
It makes sense because it doeshappen that each platform would
give you some discrepanciesdepending on the point of time
where it grabbed the data.
Janice Hostager (17:51):
Are there any other red flags that people
should look for when choosing aninfluencer or signing a
contract?
Aya Saad (17:59):
I'd say if the influencer doesn't really show a
lot of interest in your productand for them this is just
another deal then I don't reallyrecommend working with that
influencer because your productis not gonna get the attention
you want it to get from them.
If your partnerships need tomean something, they need to
(18:22):
mean something to the influencerand they need to mean something
to you.
So if you're investing moneywith an influencer, they need to
be very aligned with yourvalues.
They need to be already acustomer for your brand.
They are the person that isgonna buy that brand anyways.
Loves your brand genuinely doeshave that relationship with you
(18:43):
, because otherwise it doesn'tsound authentic and if you're
just another deal on the table,you're just not gonna get that
message properly out there,because people can sense when
somebody really really likessomething and when it's just the
next promotion that they had todo..
(19:06):
.
Janice Hostager (19:06):
Right, right, yeah, so take us through the
steps that you or a businesssmall business owner would go
through when setting up aninfluencer campaign.
So what does it look likebehind the scenes?
Aya Saad (19:16):
So behind the scenes for us, I'd say we always start
with research, so getting toknow the brand, their target,
their market and theircompetitors to ensure that the
strategy that we come up with isactually going to make them
stand out.
And then the second thing wouldbe the strategy, and the
strategy is determining who youwant to have as your affiliates
(19:37):
and influencers.
What are you going to offerthem?
Because you need to have anoffer in place.
It doesn't have to be set instone.
It needs to also have someflexibility and room for
negotiation.
However, you need to have anoutline of what you're able to
offer on a minimum level and amaximum level.
Those are your limits and howmuch exactly you could offer.
Also, what are yourexpectations from those
(20:00):
affiliates and influencers?
Are you mainly focusing on thesales, so you want the
influencers themselves to have asales approach, or you want
them to be the type of peoplewho are after the brand
awareness more, or you want amix?
You need to also have certainexpectations and what you are
wanting to achieve from youraffiliate and influencer
(20:21):
marketing program.
You would also need to do a lotof research and picking people
and go for quality over quantity.
You need to be consistent withyour outreach because many, many
times you reach out to someone,it's not that they're not
interested, it's not that theymean to ghost you, but these
people also have lives and itjust happens that your email
(20:44):
fell through.
You reached out to them at areally bad time in their life.
These things happen and manytimes when we are very
consistent with outreach andfollow-up, of course without
being spammy, but beingconsistent meaning letting them
know that you have not forgottenabout them and this deal is
still on the table if they'rewilling to take it.
Sometimes we've reached out tosomeone at month one never had a
(21:07):
response from them, despite thefollow-ups, and then we reach
out six months later and theyare so excited, can't believe
we're actually reaching out tothem.
They've seen the product, theyreally love it and they want to
be a part of it, and theyactually never saw that first
email we sent out.
Janice Hostager (21:23):
So consistency,
Aya Saad (21:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Janice Hostager (21:28):
And then at that point it really becomes
about the negotiation, and thenyou put together a contract, is
that it?
And then how long does acampaign typically run?
Aya Saad (21:38):
So I'd say for affiliate marketing, the
campaign can be a lifetimecampaign.
So as long as they're promotingyour product, they can earn
commissions from that, becausethey're only earning as long as
they're making the sale.
So for affiliate marketing andwhen influencers are your
affiliates, meaning earning oncommission basis, then that's
something that's very long term.
(21:59):
It can be there as long as theywant to be a part of the
program and as long as you havethat program live and running.
However, with more specificinfluencer campaigns, the range
depends.
So it could be like a one-timething that you reach out for
maybe a specific campaign.
Let's say you are doing aspring collection and you want
(22:21):
influencers to be promoting thatcollection specifically, but
that's it.
So you're only running thatpromotion for the time that this
collection is available.
However, if you or it could bemaybe about a discount for a
certain occasion, like a holidaydiscount or something like that
, or it can be campaigns fordifferent purposes.
So you can run a campaign forone month and the objective of
(22:44):
that campaign is this, and thenanother campaign for another
month for a different objective.
I wouldn't say there is like aminimum or a maximum.
You can run those campaignsdepending on your priorities and
your needs.
And also, of course, if you aredoing something that is a fixed
fee campaign that where you'repaying influencer a fixed fee
per content piece or per acertain amount of content
(23:08):
pieces, you need to be verymindful of your budget and how
you're able to split that budgetbetween different influencers,
because I don't recommendespecially if you're still just
testing things out, do not putall your eggs in one basket and
invest all your budget into oneinfluencer.
It's better to have differentinfluencers, different types of
your customer personas, alsopeople who are approaching your
(23:31):
product from different angles ofpromotion, so you can see what
has worked best.
Janice Hostager (23:37):
Interesting, it sounds like for a smaller
business.
Actually, an affiliate type ofsetup would work a little better
, right?
Because they're constantlypromoting on their own schedule
and they will just get apercentage of what they sell,
correct?
Aya Saad (23:56):
Yeah, and within that affiliate program that you have
long term.
You can actually have campaignsrunning within that.
So, for example, you can say,okay, everyone, for the rest of
June if the best 10 videos wouldget an extra 5% commissions on
all their sales.
Or if you publish a video inthe summer season, you will get
(24:17):
a $50 bonus, for example.
You can do so many things andplay around and we always
recommend doing these thingsbecause it makes your affiliates
stay engaged and stay excitedabout your product, excited
about your program.
Whenever you have a new productlaunch, select your top
affiliates and send them thatproduct before it's even live on
(24:38):
the website.
They would really appreciatethat.
It goes a long way for them andyou will have your own like
pre-launch campaigns withouteven having to ask for it.
So it's also a great way tobuild those relationships,
because if you build thoserelationships right with your
affiliates, then you're going tohave them promoting you long
term.
Janice Hostager (25:00):
Love it, love it.
So what's one piece of advicethat you give to a business
owner who's maybe still on thefence about this?
Do you think they should giveit a try?
Do you think we should all giveit a try and see what works?
Or what's your best advice?
Aya Saad (25:13):
My advice would be just if you want to give it a
try, you need to understand thatit is a lot of work.
It's not like ads.
It's not something that's goingto give you immediate results
and you can see immediately ifit's working or not.
It's something that you need towork on.
So you need to have the time toinvest into that and you need
(25:33):
to have a proper plan, becauseotherwise you would be unfair
towards the concept of affiliatemarketing if you decide that
it's not working for you and youjust haven't tried it properly.
So if you don't have the time toinvest into it, seek support.
If you don't have the budgetfor that, then maybe just table
that for now, until you actuallydo have the time and the tools
(25:57):
and everything to invest into it, because long term it can have
amazing results on your business.
It grows exponentially At somepoint.
If you build thoserelationships correctly, you
don't even have to reach out topeople anymore.
People are reaching out to youbecause they've seen all those
influencers talking about yourproduct and they want a bit of
that too.
So if you build thoserelationships right, at some
(26:21):
point the affiliate programwould become self-sufficient,
actually.
Janice Hostager (26:26):
Love it, love it.
So where can people learn moreabout you or affiliate marketing
or your agency, or tell us howto get in touch with you?
Aya Saad (26:34):
Yeah, absolutely, my name is Aya.
I'm CEO of Vivian Agency.
You can reach us out atvivianagencycom.
I believe Janice will have thelinks with the episode.
Yeah, exactly, you can reachout to us via the website form.
You can reach out to medirectly at ayavivianagencycom
or you can message me onLinkedIn and the show notes will
(26:55):
also have that link.
Janice Hostager (26:57):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, Aya.
We've learned a lot today aboutinfluencer marketing.
I appreciate your time, thankyou.
Aya Saad (27:05):
Thank you so much for having me.
Janice Hostager (27:07):
So are you ready to try out some affiliate
marketing?
For more information aboutanything we talked about today,
visit myweeklymarketingcom.
Forward slash 113.
If this episode gave you ideas,I would love to hear about them
.
Screenshot the episode, tag meat Janice Hostager Marketing at
Instagram and tell me one ideayou're excited to try.
(27:28):
And hey, if you want morebehind the scenes tips and
strategies like this one, makesure you're subscribed to My
Weekly Marketing.
Thanks so much for joining metoday.
See you next time.
Bye for now.
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