February 24, 2025 • 45 mins
Marketing advice can feel repetitive, but does it actually work? Victoria Hajjar, founder of Ugli Ventures, shares unconventional marketing strategies that challenge the usual playbook. She shares why small business owners struggle with social media, how to stop wasting time on things that don’t matter, and what to focus on instead.
If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by social media or frustrated by marketing that doesn’t seem to work, this episode is for you. Victoria breaks down a smarter, more practical approach that helps you get results without the frustration.
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Episode Transcript
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Janice Hostager (00:00):
Hey, welcome to my Weekly Marketing.
Today's episode is all aboutcracking the code on marketing
strategy, especially when itcomes to everyone's biggest
frustration social media.
I'm thrilled to have VictoriaHajar with me, the brilliant
mind behind Ugli MarketingAgency.
Yep, you heard me right UgliMarketing Agency, that's U-G-L-I
(00:21):
.
She's gonna be giving usinsights that are pure gold when
it comes to crafting a standoutpresence online.
From where to start with astrategy to what to do at each
stage of the buyer's journey,we're going to uncover secrets
to marketing success for yourbusiness.
So here's my talk with Victoria.
Well, hey, Victoria, welcome toMy Weekly Marketing.
Victoria Hajjar (00:42):
Hi Janice.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited about beingon the show and for our
conversation today.
Janice Hostager (00:49):
Yeah, so you run a marketing business that
helps entrepreneurs grow fromsix to seven figures?
Right.
So our listeners are generallya little smaller than that.
They're generally, you know,maybe solopreneurs, new startups
, etc.
Talk to me about your system,first of all, and maybe a little
(01:09):
bit about how new startups canuse it in anticipation of their
growth, and then a little bitabout how you got into this and
so we're going to just go allover the map.
Victoria Hajjar (01:22):
That's great.
Yeah, okay, let's start about.
We'll start on my journey alittle bit, because I think mine
has been a little bit uniquefrom others in my space I think
there's a lot of folks that comefrom corporate and then they
sort of translate their systemsand their knowledge from
corporate into helping smallbusinesses and entrepreneurs,
(01:43):
and my journey has been a littlebit the opposite of that.
So I well, the interestingthing about my journey is that I
started my career in Shanghai,China, so I went to school in
New York City.
I grew up in the tri-state areaand I, after graduating from
college, I had an internshiplined up and like a job after
(02:07):
that.
So the world was for me was alittle bit planned ahead and
that I completely wanted torevolt against.
I was like I felt like you know, this could be the rest of my
life, like I could just be hereand kind of be in this place in
the world for forever.
(02:28):
And I happened to have thiscalendar inside my cubicle and I
was working for a as like anexecutive assistant at a
television network and inside mycubicle I have no idea where it
came from was this thiscalendar of different like
tourism spots across China.
So it was like the Great Wall,the Peking Opera, you know, dim
(02:50):
sum restaurant, all this and soevery day.
.
.
And that job was a little bitchallenging because I dealt with
some cranky celebrities andproducers and things like that.
So it was, you know, tough asthose first jobs go.
And I would just look at thiscalendar and it just planted the
seed in my head of I'm justgoing to get out of here and go
(03:12):
travel the world and move toAsia.
So I moved to China teachingEnglish, and I've been thinking
about this recently because fromteaching English to starting my
marketing career, it was, itwas really a challenging time
because I loved being in Chinabut I didn't know how on earth I
was going to stay withoutteaching English because I just
(03:35):
it was not my passion, wasn'twhat I wanted to do, and I got
this really great opportunity totransition from teaching to
being a marketing assistant fortwo entrepreneurs.
Okay, and so this reallystarted my journey with
marketing and this trend thatjust is a through line of my
(03:56):
life of always working directlywith entrepreneurs and with
investors.
So my first parlay intomarketing was in that and every
single company I've worked inafter has been directly with
founders and investors to growand scale their businesses.
But what's unique about thatposition, which I think a lot of
(04:18):
us can relate to, is when youare working directly with an
entrepreneur and a lot of thepeople listening here.
Maybe you have a social mediamanager, maybe you have someone
writing blogs for you or doingvarious things to help assist
you.
You know we kind of expect alot from that person.
But the problem is is that ifthat person doesn't come with a
(04:40):
lot of experience, theircapabilities are really only
going to be, as can only develop, as much as the ones above them
, their managers right, andthat's you right.
So a lot of folks get reallyfrustrated because they expect
their social media manager ortheir virtual assistant to be
(05:03):
able to create like a profitablesales and marketing program for
their business.
Let's face it right.
But the reality is is just it'sit's not oftentimes even
possible because those peoplejust don't have enough
experience.
They don't understand the fullpicture.
So that was me in the beginningof my career, with a lot of
pressure from, again, investorsare not the most forgiving bunch
(05:27):
of folks right when you saythings like that.
So I really began what I calllike a trial by fire education
in how to grow a businessthrough marketing and learning
about all the pieces ofmarketing.
And so I've been able to youknow, beyond that first
experience again workconsistently with entrepreneurs
(05:48):
directly and I've been able tohave my hands in a wide variety
of businesses and a variety ofstages.
So I've worked with, you know,early stage startup, pre-revenue
companies like just gettingthose first, you know, first
organizing the first bits of itall the way to scale and growth.
(06:08):
And I've been able to work withentrepreneurs, very experienced
entrepreneurs, because this hasbeen my learning path, just
finding more and more advancedentrepreneurs to learn from, to
expand my marketing knowledge.
But I've been able to, you know, work with entrepreneurs that
have built billion dollarunicorn businesses.
So I really run the gamut onwhat are the stages for
(06:30):
marketing for each of thesebusinesses and we can go a
little bit into that.
But that's sort of thefoundation of this framework
that I built, which I call thescalable marketing machine,
which is really like what arethe elements that you need to
have in place to be able to haveyour marketing grow and scale
your business for you and smartentrepreneurs start this early
(06:54):
on, that they start methodicallycreating their business, their
sales and marketing aroundsystems.
Right, you don't have to be ingrowth and scale mode to put
systems in place, and so that'swhat we can talk a little bit
about, because I see time andtime again you know, I've worked
with again a wide variety ofbusinesses, but I've worked with
(07:15):
strong leaders, I've workedwith weak leaders and I've seen
who are the ones that have thesuccess and ultimately, in my
opinion, or what I'veexperienced, is that those that
are building things against aproven framework and building
them against systems are theones that are able to grow
(07:36):
faster and have success faster,simply because a system allows
you to methodically implement,iterate, and improve upon things
, whereas what keeps many, manyfolks stuck for years is this
kind of execution, randomlytrying a lot of things, throwing
(07:57):
spaghetti at the wall, so tospeak.
Janice Hostager (07:59):
Right, oh, that is so true.
And I really resonate with whatyou're saying about the systems
.
I mean I started out with adesign agency and I found and
because I'm really ADD, so Iwould find like little notes
scribbled on pieces of paper andsticky notes that felt had
fallen off the computer and fallinto the floor, kind of thing.
And you know, I realized reallyearly on that if I didn't have
(08:22):
a system for myself, that I wasdoomed, I mean just keeping
track of notes from clients andyou know just my hours that I
spent on something andeverything like that.
So I 100% agree with you there.
And I also think you'reabsolutely spot on about people
hiring like not even their firsthire, maybe it would be a
(08:44):
virtual assistant that you wantto do social media, and I see
that a lot with social media andI know that we were gonna
actually talk about social mediatoday.
We just, I just have a lot ofthings I wanted to cover also.
But yeah, I think you're spoton.
People expect young, newgraduate, new college grads to
have this social mediaexperience and they do, just in
(09:06):
their own world, you know.
But aligning social media withmarketing is a whole different
ballgame.
So I'm really glad that thatyou spoke to that, for sure,
Victoria Hajjar (09:16):
Yeah 100%, 100% .
And I think, just to go back tothat point.
You know I see this over andover and over again and people
waste a lot of money.
This is going to be a littlebit of a plug to hire folks like
Janice and I.
Right, because no, because itreally.
You waste an incredible amountof money hiring folks off Fiverr
(09:38):
or getting you know a socialmedia manager, for example.
That's yeah, they'll turn outyour email, they'll do.
They'll put the they'll email,they'll put the posts together,
they'll schedule them.
And what often is lacking fromthese folks are A sort of the
high level, 10,000 foot view ofhow sales and marketing work in
your business.
Because if no one in your wholecompany, your whole business,
(10:03):
has that view, it's going to bevery difficult to ensure that
any of the sales and marketingactivities are really working in
accordance with each other.
Typically, it's easy to findexecutors, but we're we can't
expect our executors to also beour strategists.
That's why strategy andexecution are often very
different.
That's why folks like Janiceand I are very good.
(10:26):
Maybe we're not, you know theones that will be very good
toiling away in an Excelspreadsheet and and, and you
know, doing the very smalldetail oriented things.
That's why we carry that 10,000foot view and we're able to
worry about managing theoutcomes of each one of these
stages of the marketing strategy.
And that's, if you can't afforda marketing director or chief
(10:50):
marketing officer and you're thebusiness owner, that's your
role, that's your role to stepup into that role, because sales
and marketing is the lifebloodof your business.
So if there's no one in yourteam that understands how it
works and how to get success outof it, then you're going to
flounder for a long time.
Janice Hostager (11:11):
Yes, yes, yeah.
I just had a client a coupleweeks ago that had been for
years paying somebody to postthree times a week on their
social media platforms and thereally cute little graphics.
But it was more like you know,happy Friday and you know it's
just like it had, there was nostrategy behind it at all and
(11:34):
the owner was so frustrated, Imean, and and she really, it
took a long time for her torealize that yes, this isn't you
know it's it's wasting money.
You know, and nobody wants tofeel that way when you started
out.
And I get it.
I mean, you are running abusiness, you are so focused on
the other things that justgetting the doing the things
(11:55):
right, so the the trying to dosocial media on top of that,
trying to even execute a planbeyond that in is and that's
what I had actually had to do inmy business too is once I
started realizing that socialmedia was not going to do it,
SEO was not going to do it.
They all had to fit togethersomehow some way, and so I
(12:17):
developed what you call theflywheel.
I call it to Trail to the Sale,but it's the same kind of thing
.
It's like a whole customerjourney map, basically laid out
step by step, and what you needto focus on in each of those
steps, which makes your managingin marketing so much more
manageable to boot.
Victoria Hajjar (12:33):
And then you can really you can focus on the
tactics, right, it's kind oflike so let's talk.
I know you want to talk aboutsocial media.
I think this is a really goodparlay into that, because the
example that you just gave about, you know, a happy Friday post
and just like quotes and thingslike that Pre 2020, I would say
(12:56):
that those sort of things wereworking right.
Pre COVID, I feel likemarketing you know a lot of us
in marketing and, right, we'vegot a lot of marketers also
listening to this this idea oflike the content train.
Right, you just got to keep itgoing, you got to just keep
showing up.
Janice Hostager (13:10):
Yeah.
Victoria Hajjar (13:11):
But I believe that COVID really marked and
TikTok really brought about this, which is like a whole leveling
up of the quality of content onsocial media, and I think that
any of us that are functioningin that old paradigm we're just
not going to see the results,because what you said reminded
me, like there's one marketingagency here in Miami, which will
(13:35):
go unnamed, that never sendemails, never, ever, ever send
emails Only.
It's like you know, happyholidays, happy new year.
They only will send anewsletter for a holiday to wish
that the person a happy holiday, and the idea is like we're
(13:55):
just going to stay in front ofmind, but they're in my inbox.
I'm still subscribed.
They're missing a hugeopportunity and that is to be
really, truly adding value.
Right, we can truly be addingvalue and we see, especially
with the Gen Zers who have grownup in front of the screen, the
(14:15):
quality of their content theychurn out, the quality of their
hooks, the pace at which they goon to trends, like we've been
able to see some breakoutbusinesses.
In fact, I have severalfounders that I mentor whose
businesses absolutely explodedin 2020 simply because they were
(14:36):
able to capture that audienceon TikTok.
They were churning out funny,entertaining content.
They were popping on the trendsand they were able to grow
their followership to you knowhalf a million or a million
followers in a very short periodof time.
And so then they have abusiness, they have an audience.
(14:57):
But what's interesting to goback to the idea of the flywheel
is that a lot of thosebusinesses if we look at last
year, from 2022 to now,product-based businesses are at
a desperate decline because thatwave of TikTok, that board a
lot of influencers and then theysell products because they
didn't have this full journeyright the flywheel, or the you
(15:20):
know what you call it to thesale, right the Trail to the
Sale, as this, you know, as thatstrategic piece, that high
level strategy was not in place.
Many of them could not sustainthe businesses because they went
from organic, then organicstopped working, they went
straight to paid ad.
They did not have a fullflywheel strategy working and so
(15:41):
, okay, ads were cheap in 2022,but guess what?
End of 2022, 23, 24, ads arenot possible anymore and so many
, many businesses just shuttheir doors because they didn't
build community, they didn'tnurture them, they didn't build
a relationship, they didn'tbring them on the sales journey.
You know, they didn't do any ofthose pieces because they
(16:03):
didn't have that 10,000 footview that's so important.
So, to touch back on to tosocial though and a lot of us
are expecting that, okay, well,I don't want to dive into that
just yet.
So let's just put that there,because we can jump from thing
to thing, but we can talk alittle bit more about social
media and what role it plays.
Janice Hostager (16:26):
Well, and I agree and actually I was going
to talk a little bit aboutsocial media in that when you're
looking at what a smallbusiness does, is they often do
that is the first thing thatthey want to farm out or get
somebody else to do is theirsocial media, and the thing and
you touch on this to socialmedia is constantly in flux.
(16:46):
I think it is the hardest thingto have a strategy behind,
because what worked last yearisn't working this year, and so
I think there are some basicsyou want people to know, like
and trust you.
That's one of the things thatsocial media does really well.
If you're authentic behind acamera, if you have time to make
videos or get in front of thescreen, I think social media is
(17:08):
great for that.
But it's a crowded playing fieldright now and you have to be
able to stand out with somestellar hooks.
You have to develop a following.
You have that community, sothere's a lot of things that
have changed and shifted.
(17:28):
And of course, the algorithmkeeps, you know, getting changed
around a lot.
You know TikTok is, I think, aseparate thing and right now
we're in February 2025.
We don't know if TikTok is goingto stick around or not, but
we'll say Instagram, which,again, all the social media,
anything meta now has changedbecause of the lack of
monitoring now at this point intime, and so everything is kind
of in flux.
So I think a strategy is reallyimportant, but what do you
(17:53):
think is really key to have astrategy behind, or what does
that strategy look like forsocial media if you don't
necessarily know where to start?
Victoria Hajjar (18:08):
So I want everyone listening to be able to
take that lens and pull it backto that 10,000 foot view,
because the very first questionyou need to ask yourself is you
know how much time, energy,effort, investment do I have to
put into my business?
That's like the first layer weneed to really look at, because
we need to get honest withourselves, right, because if we
(18:31):
don't have the time but we dohave money, that's going to give
us some options.
If we don't have the money butwe do have time, that's going to
create a different situationfor us.
So let's go into the situationthat most people have, which is
more time than money right?
To work on their business.
And you're looking like.
You're thinking like I want togrow through social media, right
?
The first, the next questionyou need to ask yourself is you
(19:01):
know how serious am I willing totake this social media platform
?
And when you're first startingout, I would really highly
recommend only focusing on oneplatform.
I think it's again.
I think it's totally fine to bepushing content out to other
platforms automatically, but Iwould choose one platform to
really be the one where you'refocused on growth, okay, and If
(19:22):
you're using social media forgrowth and, by the way, there's
many other ways that you cangrow so I want everyone to keep
that in mind, because I thinkpeople think that social media
is their only choice, and itbecomes a problem when people
are like I hate social media, Idon't personally like to spend
time on it, I don't enjoy makingcontent, it takes me too long.
If that's you, I would highlysuggest considering a different
(19:44):
way to grow, and there's otherways to grow that are equally as
free as organic social media.
So, okay, we've decided thatwe're using social media for
growth, social media for growth,if this is something that
you're serious about, I wouldimmediately follow all of Gary
Vee's content.
I would read all of his booksbecause he's really good at
(20:08):
bringing to reality what ittakes to win on social in
today's market.
And, as I was commenting beforeabout 2020, right, the total
paradigm shift and a lot of ushas talked about this a lot
where the algorithm changed toreally being able to serve
people content based on theirinterests rather than who they
(20:31):
were following, right.
And so in the old paradigm,it's like okay, these are who
you follow.
Then the algorithm is going tomake assumptions about what you
like, based on you know who youfollow and who's following you
and all that stuff.
In the new world this for youpage, where they're just trying
to grab our attention, grab ourattention, grab our attention it
just shifted everything,because now, whatever you look
(20:53):
at, they're just going to feedyou more of.
And it's just so ridiculousbecause she's like, oh, you know
they must, she must have a dog,let's feed her more dog stuff.
Or like, oh, she's interestedin under eye cream, let's just
feed her under eye cream, right?
So this is how the algorithm isworking, and so that's why the
competitiveness of the contenthas gone through the roof,
(21:15):
because we're just competing tograb, grab, grab, grab, grab
attention, because that'sultimately going to get our
content pushed out to moreaudiences.
And if you're using social mediaas a growth strategy, your only
metric you should be trackingis impressions.
Are we getting our content togo viral, and what does it take
(21:35):
to go viral?
It takes pushing out a lot ofcontent.
So the founders that I mentorand I work with.
If they're doing an Instagramstrategy to grow their business,
you better believe that they'reposting, at least three times a
day, really good, well thoughtout content.
This is no more of the quotesand passive stuff.
(22:02):
This is actively creatingcontent each and every week or
each and every day,understanding the sending, the
trending sound, the trendinggraphics, the dances, all of the
all of that is important If youreally want to build content
that's going to get you resultsin terms of leads into your
business, right.
And if you're not able to bedoing content and social media
(22:26):
at that pace, then I would youhave two options.
You can either hire it out tohelp someone, to get someone to
help you to create the volume ofthat content, to really stay on
top of it, and that's not justa passive social media person,
just anyone you could find onthe internet.
That's someone that takes theirjob seriously and it is an
(22:46):
investment.
You should invest in someonethat is experienced as a sidebar
when you're creating your youknow your whole marketing
strategy.
We need to think about makingthose strategic investments.
So if you're like, nope, socialmedia is where I'm going to get
my leads, then that's a placeyou need to invest right and
doing it well.
Now.
If that's not the case andyou're like, okay, you're
(23:08):
cringing a little bit with mesaying all this and like maybe
social media is not for me.
We still need social media.
But then it takes a completelydifferent uh turn where we're
focused more on value-basedcontent, like no interest,
nurture.
It becomes a part of ournurture strategy.
Doesn't matter if things goviral, we just want people to
connect with us as the businessowner.
(23:29):
We want people to connect withthe value we bring them,
understand our products,understand our offers, and so
the pressure is taken off.
It still needs to be goodquality, but it doesn't have to
be quite as high frequency, itdoesn't have to be quite as
intense with paying attention tothose trends.
(23:54):
So I think it's it's reallyimportant for us to know what
game we're playing when it comesto social media because, again,
most people I talked to thinkthey're playing the, the, the.
You know, reaching newaudiences, getting leads from
social media.
That's typically the only thingthey're doing in the awareness
phase, right, that first stageof that client journey, and then
they're asking and wonderingwhy they're not getting any
leads.
Why are they not getting anyresults?
(24:15):
Because they're not utilizingsocial media in the way that's
going to deliver the results forthem.
You know.
Janice Hostager (24:22):
So what do you have to say to the individual
that just hates being on socialmedia, doesn't do it on a
personal basis, they feel likethey have to do it for work.
Where would you suggest thatthey invest their time and
energy if they don't want to dosocial, or want to do social
like kind of a back burner?
kind of thing,
Victoria Hajjar (24:42):
I do think it's really important to have social
as a component of yourmarketing strategy.
But, again, you can do,honestly, even if you're the
fellow that was doing the quotes, that's fine.
If that's part of your brandand it makes sense for you and
you just want to churn outquotes or whatever and just stay
active.
It's just.
You know, many people go tosocial first to just legitimize.
Like is this business evenstill open?
(25:03):
Like, do they even exist?
Honestly, oftentimes people aregoing to your LinkedIn, they're
going to your Instagram orgoing to your Facebook,
depending on who your targetclient is, and so I think it's,
I think it could work againstyou if you're, if you're not
present, you don't exist.
Now, that said, I think youknow if you're really not paying
a lot of attention to growth, Iwouldn't go to all of the
(25:23):
channels, because it alsodoesn't look good to have like
zero followers and zero.
So you could definitely build anice respectable amount of
following, not do anything toocrazy.
I would say just invest inmaking sure you're posting, you
know, at least three times aweek, for example, things that
are relative to your business,things that are relevant to your
target client.
So that should be going in someway.
(25:43):
You can do it yourself or youcan have a virtual assistant do
that.
But let's look at other waysthat we can grow, because the
(26:15):
one question I want everyone toask themselves is like what is
the purpose of marketing for mybusiness because it could be
different for differentbusinesses.
If you have like a B2Bbusiness, that's very very high
ticket.
You are a high level consultantand you charge tens of
thousands of dollars to workwith someone.
It's going to be a verydifferent strategy than if you
have a product based businessand you're just trying to get
someone to your landing page topurchase something.
Completely different strategy.
So level one is understandwhat's the purpose.
Right, once you identify thepurpose, then we can start
putting some metrics to it.
Like, if it's, you know, purelyto drive leads, then we need to
be measuring how many leadswe're getting.
It's purely to drive brandawareness, we need to be
(26:36):
measuring, you know, impressionsthings like that.
Or you know exposure andaudience sizes that we're
getting in front of.
But once you decide what thepurpose of marketing is for you,
then we need to really focus inon that first stage of the of
the flywheel of the journey,which is that awareness.
Right, like we need people toknow about our business and if
(26:57):
it's not social media thatyou're using for that, there's a
couple other things you can do.
There's, I mean, I like toidentify, like there's typically
only three ways that you cangrow your business.
It's through ads, which noteveryone has the budget for.
There's leveraging otherpeople's audiences, which is,
you know, partnerships throughbrand partnerships through
(27:19):
influencers right, we could beright, PR, things like that.
And the third is really searchengine optimization, right, it's
like are people finding you?
The last and fourth one that Iwould also say is an important
one, but it depends on yourbusiness is like a cold outbound
strategy which I would put intothat awareness bucket.
(27:41):
If you're a service-basedbusiness, you could invest in
getting lists of your targetclient and just reaching out to
them, picking up the phone,opening up conversations,
connecting with them on LinkedIn, dming them, sending them
emails.
You don't have to be thisincessant, annoying cold callers
(28:02):
, but this is still an extremelyeffective way to open up
opportunities, right?
If you're a product-basedbusiness, this could look like
getting wholesaler lists,getting boutique owner lists,
things like that, and reallyjust trying to actively network
and leverage relationships tobuild to get customers and get
(28:22):
clients.
So there's that outbound.
There's SEO, which again couldbe search engine optimization
for search platforms, for AI, oralso very relevant, search for
social media, right.
More and more people useInstagram.
You know TikTok.
If TikTok is going to be aroundwhen everyone's listening to
this as a search engine, right,they're looking for recipes,
(28:46):
they're looking for hotels,they're looking for products,
they're looking for advice andthey use those search bars just
like a search engine.
So that's another way we canconnect with people searching
for what we need.
And then again, leveragingother people's audiences and
partnerships is my absolutefavorite way to grow for new
businesses that don't have a lotof investment, that they're not
(29:07):
funded.
The easiest way that you can geta bunch of people into your
email list at one time is likedo a workshop with with another
business owner, do an event,right.
Leverage each other's audiencesso you can introduce your
audiences to to your.
You know your another businessowner, another business, and
(29:27):
they'll do the same for you.
And if you plug, you know oneof those a month into your
calendar to be doing thesethings, you'll find yourself
having grown your email listquite significantly by the end
of the year.
So this is a really, reallygreat way to grow when you're
first getting started.
Janice Hostager (29:45):
Yeah, yeah, and I would agree with those tips.
There's one, though, I want toclarify a little bit is that I'd
never recommend that thatbusinesses buy an email list,
because they can get you flaggedas a spammer.
So when you're talking aboutlists, I'm assuming you're
talking about like a regularmail list, right?
Victoria Hajjar (30:01):
Well, I guess in my experience, like if you
buy a list and you do a blastemail to everyone, that is
absolutely against rules.
If you get into a community andthey're, for example, really
great way to do this is, let'ssay, you want to be in community
with your target client, right?
(30:21):
Oftentimes those havedirectories.
You can start with thatdirectory and I really do
encourage people to reach outlike one-to-one.
If you get someone's contactinformation and you reach out
one-to-one, not an email blast,don't put them on your email
marketing campaigns.
No, it's actually justintroducing yourself.
(30:41):
That's completely kosher, it'scompletely fine.
And again, a lot of people willjust ignore you.
That's fine.
But you could begin to openthese conversations and the key
to this is how personable canyou get?
So, in the idea of goingthrough communities, this is a
really, really great strategy.
Let's say that you sell tolawyers, right?
(31:03):
There's a wonderful groupcalled Ms Esquire and they're
all the female lawyers ofAmerica and they have a Facebook
group and they have likelunches and events, things like
that, and you sell to lawyers.
Get yourself into that group.
There's maybe a small fee topay, but you can go to the
events and you'll get access tothe directory and you can reach
out to those lawyers one by oneand say, hey, we're both in Ms
(31:26):
Esquire group, I do this andthis.
If you ever need help with that.
This is where you are doingthis outbound.
It's cold, quote, unquote, butno, it's warm because you have a
connection right.
The cold outbound where you'rebuying lists of 10,000 and just
cold blasting them is absolutelydoesn't work.
I mean, it does, it does, butit takes a lot of time and a lot
(31:49):
of times, a lot of investmentto actually see the fruits of a
strategy like that.
Janice Hostager (31:54):
Yeah yeah.
It jumps right from awarenessto sale, with missing all the
pieces that are in between that.
So I'm glad you clarified that,thank you.
So have you worked withinfluencers?
Victoria Hajjar (32:08):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Janice Hostager (32:09):
So so what tips you have?
Do you feel like that'ssomething that newer businesses
should maybe avoid at the outset, or do you think because it can
be very powerful?
Influencers can be verypowerful.
How do you feel like like a new, newer startup or a solopreneur
can work with an influencer?
Victoria Hajjar (32:27):
Okay, I think first you have to identify your
needs.
So I think there definitely isa distinction between influencer
and a content creator.
So you can, if you need likereally good, authentic, like
looking like user generatedcontent to be able to share
because that's really reallyimportant and powerful, you can
(32:47):
simply hire people to do that onFiverr or whatever, and they
may have small audiences, butusually not influencer level
audiences and because oftentimeswhen we're getting influencers,
when we're just starting and wedon't want to pay for their
engagement, we just want thecontent right.
We want like the content thatfeels authentic, because that's
(33:12):
the stuff that really thatreally produces.
So if you're like, oh, I've gotthe content, I got that dialed
in.
I really want to grow throughinfluencers, there's a couple
ways to do it.
Can you find influencers towork with for free?
Still, yes, it's possible, butagain, a lot of this is based on
relationships.
So you're going to want to beidentifying some people to work
(33:33):
with like influencers.
I would shortlist, you know Ilove to do things like let's do
it like a dream 100 list.
Let's say who's like our 100top influencers that we would
like love to work with, and Iwould be connecting with those
individually honestly like tryto do you know five or 10, you
know every week and little bylittle you send a personal DM,
you open the relationships, youexplain, you know what your
(33:56):
business is all about and if youget some nice conversations
going, you can kind of enterthat way.
And I think that this is themissing piece that people need
to not forget about.
Influencer marketing is a lotabout relationships, right, if
you're at the level where youwant to be purely transactional
(34:17):
with influencers, then you needto be very careful about who
you're working with.
They need to have a reputationfor being um, you know that
they're delivering what theypromise, all of that stuff.
Because there is a little bitof an economy going there where
there are folks that kind of lieabout how many followers they
have and what their productionis, that I've been in situations
(34:41):
before where they just likepromise to do X, y and Z and
they don't.
So if you're consideringworking with influencers, the
first thing I would say isrelationships first.
So make sure that you meet thembeforehand, that you guys get a
vibe of each other, that youget it get along well, and that
there is something in writingabout what each side is going to
(35:03):
provide, like really organizeit right.
That's that's like the basics.
And then I would say you know,if you're considering investing
right in the working withinfluencer, just like a job
interview, I would say, couldyou give me some references of
who people you've worked withbefore, just to ensure that the
(35:26):
experience is going to be apositive one?
Because if you're a smallerbusiness just just starting out
and you're going to invest acouple thousand dollars to work
with an influencer, you want tomake sure you're going to get
your return on investment forthat and that it is going to be
a good experience for you.
And then the other thing is isthat if you're still, if you're
(35:46):
in the earlier stage, to don'tdiscount folks that have small,
like these micro influencers canbe extremely, extremely
effective.
10,000 and you and listen, weoften forget this, but like
start within our own network,I'm sure we all have like
friends or cousins or likenieces of aunts, of the no, I
(36:08):
don't know who we have an actualimmediate connection with.
Let's start with our ownnetwork first and again.
Even if, like you know, cousinSarah has like 10,000, you know
she's really on top of Instagramand had 10,000.
She's a great, if it makessense for your brand right, she
would be a great ad.
Janice Hostager (36:27):
Yeah, and locally.
If you have a local businesstoo, it's a lot, although I
think they can, if they're goodand they're local.
It can be a little moreexpensive, depending on what,
who you're after.
But you know, don't like, likeyou said, don't overlook your
community.
I love that.
Yeah, so are there.
Do you feel like there's someoverlooked strategies for
(36:49):
increasing the customer lifetimevalue using Instagram that
you've worked with, or what areyour thoughts on that?
Victoria Hajjar (36:59):
Using Instagram .
Well, I think again yes.
Janice Hostager (37:06):
Or social media in general.
Victoria Hajjar (37:08):
I think we want to really get a good handle on
how we're going, how you'regoing to utilize the user
generated content, how you'regoing to shout out your
customers and your clients likethis, and I guess, if you're
really looking to increaselifetime value, the first thing
I would say is you know, how areyou really building community
around your brand?
(37:29):
And ways we can do that isreally, again, getting our
community involved in ourmarketing is the best way that
you can increase not only LTVbut also enhance the word of
mouth.
Right, people are going to feelbetter about your brand.
They're going to recommend you,and that's a very, very
powerful thing.
(37:53):
So, um, you know, asking forusers to be, uh, giving honest
reviews and doing videos andthen saying that they'll be
featured on your Instagram, likethese, are incredible things
that let me tell you, especiallyfor the newer folks that dream
of being influencers which,let's face it, are like a lot of
kids out there a lot of peopleout there that dream of that.
That's a really greatopportunity for them to have
that reciprocity where you'regoing to feature them Right.
(38:15):
I've had brands that I'veworked with that do regular.
It's a regular spot wherethey're always doing customer
features or, you know, it's notjust testimonials, it's like
anything that they post, likerepost it, give them a shout out
.
I've had those businesses alsoutilize that content for their
newsletters as well.
I've also, you know, again, ifwe're looking at influencers,
(38:37):
you know, look at your owncustomers, look within your own
community.
Has anyone bought from you inthe past 90 days that have like
over 5,000 followers?
And again, micro influencersare fine.
We just have to see is thereanyone of our customers or
clients that are taking thisseriously right, that are
producing high quality content?
We can start there.
(38:57):
So it's all about how do youkind of bring it back to
community building and buildingthe relationship with your
current customers.
That's going to foster kind ofgood vibes inside them to keep
coming back and also torecommend you.
Janice Hostager (39:13):
Good stuff.
This is all good stuff.
Victoria Hajjar (39:15):
Right,
Janice Hostager (39:17):
It's hard, it's all a lot, and I you know
anybody that runs a businessunderstands that that you're
dealing with so many terms youdon't know and you're trying to
just run your business day today and you're dealing with all
this, this marketing stuff andit just comes at you so fast and
you feel like that feeling inyour pit of your stomach and
you're like what if I should bedoing that instead?
(39:39):
Or you know, so it really doespay off to have a strategy in
place, either with someone likeVictoria, who works with a
little larger businesses is, oractually myself too.
But you know, just having thatstructure down and you know, in
a lot of this you can get a freedownload and kind of work on it
yourself until you get to thepoint where you are ready to
(40:02):
invest a little more into it, orable to, for sure.
Victoria Hajjar (40:05):
One thing that I always like to remind people
in this journey, like we, Ithink we expect things to go
really fast.
We also read these articles ofthese really well-funded
companies that have this massivegrowth in a short period of
time, but the reality is, formost of us it's going to be a
slow burn, and I always like tosay you don't have to go fast,
(40:26):
you just have to keep going andyou're going to learn little by
little, right, and you can getstarted with a lot of free
resources.
But I think, Janice, you'dagree with me the key to
building out like an effectiveclient journey is first, just
doing one thing at a time.
So, for the marketing flywheel,for the client journey, however
(40:49):
, whatever you call it right,the Trail to the Sale, you've
got various steps right that aregoing to bring people from
first knowing about you toconverting into paying customers
and then raving fans right.
That's the general gist of theclient journey, and so if you
want to be able to methodically,you know, plug away and learn,
(41:10):
and improve.
It's like listen, we got it.
We have to work first to doingone activity for each one of
these stages.
So that means awareness phaseokay, 2025, I'm just going to do
a partnership strategy.
I'm going to give myself atarget of doing one joint
partnership event or workshop orsomething per month.
At the end of the year, I willhave 12.
(41:33):
The next is an engage right, alead magnet.
Let's just we're going toiterate and approve upon one
lead magnet.
We've got one lead magnet.
We can play around with what wecall it.
We can play around with the,you know describing what it is,
but we're not going to createany more right and then nurture.
We're only going to work onthis social platform.
We're going to do the best thatwe can on one social platform.
And so, piece by piece, you'rebuilding this journey one step
(41:55):
at a time, and you're going tomake a tremendous amount of
progress, even though it's goingto feel like a snail's pace
while you're at it, but littleby little, you're going to be
building kind of the bricks uponthe house that you will build,
this strong, with a strongfoundation, this marketing and
sales engine for yourself.
So it's like we want it all andwe want it all right now, but
(42:17):
if we can have the discipline tojust go bit by bit, I promise
at the end of the year you'll belight years away from others in
your industry.
Janice Hostager (42:28):
Great, great advice, and that is absolutely
true.
But I honestly think too, if wehad it all right away, we
wouldn't know what to do with it, we didn't know how to handle
it.
So it's, you know, in some waysa real blessing that we have to
learn everything as we go,because, as my coach likes to
say, what got you here won't getyou there.
So you know, like you figureout one thing and at one level,
(42:49):
and then to grow your businessto the next level, you're going
to have to learn some new things.
So it's all a journey, right?
So that's what makes it fun.
Victoria Hajjar (42:56):
Honestly, I've seen this time and time again,
that I've seen businesses thathave those fast rises, but guess
what?
Things start to absolutelybreak just in different ways.
Right, you have a fast rise.
Then oftentimes there's a lotof things breaking behind the
scenes because you haven'tlearned the lessons.
So, again, that slow burn isoften the recipe for something
(43:19):
that's sustainable.
That's why a lot of especiallyin the smaller businesses, you
see people that are in businessfor 20, 30, 40 years.
It's not that it all came tothem in one year or in two years
.
Janice Hostager (43:34):
Absolutely.
Victoria.
How can people learn more aboutyou?
Victoria Hajjar (43:38):
Oh well I this has been such a pleasure.
Thank you so much.
So my business is called UgliVentures with an I, so it's U G
L I V E N T U R E S.
Janice Hostager (43:49):
Yes, okay, I have to ask how you got that
name.
Victoria Hajjar (43:52):
Yes, because this all came to the around the
concept of business being reallyugly sometimes.
So when I was really strugglingin the beginning of my career, I
just thought, like this is theworst part of business the sales
and marketing.
It is the hardest, is the mostpressure right, and so I
dedicated my life essentially toreally putting in the systems
and frameworks to turn this mostugly part of business into
(44:14):
something that we can feel isbeautiful and manageable and
under control.
So Ugli Ventures is thebusiness, and if you go to
ugliventurescom backslashresources there's a ton of free
guides on how you can in factstart this climb journey that
we're speaking of.
Right, a guide on how you cango step by step and to get
started, that is all you need.
(44:35):
You just have to start learningand, again, building it piece
by piece, and when you're readyand you start seeing some
traction, then you'll be able tohire folks to help you and
maybe even higher level folks tohelp run the things.
But again, if it's you in thebeginning, you just got to roll
up your sleeves and you got tolearn it yourself.
Janice Hostager (44:54):
That is such great advice.
Thank you so much for beinghere today, Victoria.
I appreciate your time and forsharing all your wisdom.
Victoria Hajjar (45:01):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Janice Hostager (45:04):
Thanks so much for tuning in today.
If you found value in today'sdiscussion to learn more about
Victoria and anything we talkedabout on the episode today,
visit myweeklymarketingcomforward slash 96.
And don't forget to subscribeto My Weekly Marketing for more
insights into growing your smallbusiness.
Remember, marketing isn't justabout what you do.
(45:25):
It's about the stories you telland the connections you make.
So keep hustling and keepinnovating and watch your
business grow.
See you next time.
Bye for now.
Hey, welcome to my Weekly Marketing.
Today's episode is all aboutcracking the code on marketing
strategy, especially when itcomes to everyone's biggest
frustration social media.
I'm thrilled to have VictoriaHajar with me, the brilliant
mind behind Ugli MarketingAgency.
Yep, you heard me right UgliMarketing Agency, that's U-G-L-I
(00:21):
.
She's gonna be giving usinsights that are pure gold when
it comes to crafting a standoutpresence online.
From where to start with astrategy to what to do at each
stage of the buyer's journey,we're going to uncover secrets
to marketing success for yourbusiness.
So here's my talk with Victoria.
Well, hey, Victoria, welcome toMy Weekly Marketing.
Victoria Hajjar (00:42):
Hi Janice.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited about beingon the show and for our
conversation today.
Janice Hostager (00:49):
Yeah, so you run a marketing business that
helps entrepreneurs grow fromsix to seven figures?
Right.
So our listeners are generallya little smaller than that.
They're generally, you know,maybe solopreneurs, new startups
, etc.
Talk to me about your system,first of all, and maybe a little
(01:09):
bit about how new startups canuse it in anticipation of their
growth, and then a little bitabout how you got into this and
so we're going to just go allover the map.
Victoria Hajjar (01:22):
That's great.
Yeah, okay, let's start about.
We'll start on my journey alittle bit, because I think mine
has been a little bit uniquefrom others in my space I think
there's a lot of folks that comefrom corporate and then they
sort of translate their systemsand their knowledge from
corporate into helping smallbusinesses and entrepreneurs,
(01:43):
and my journey has been a littlebit the opposite of that.
So I well, the interestingthing about my journey is that I
started my career in Shanghai,China, so I went to school in
New York City.
I grew up in the tri-state areaand I, after graduating from
college, I had an internshiplined up and like a job after
(02:07):
that.
So the world was for me was alittle bit planned ahead and
that I completely wanted torevolt against.
I was like I felt like you know, this could be the rest of my
life, like I could just be hereand kind of be in this place in
the world for forever.
(02:28):
And I happened to have thiscalendar inside my cubicle and I
was working for a as like anexecutive assistant at a
television network and inside mycubicle I have no idea where it
came from was this thiscalendar of different like
tourism spots across China.
So it was like the Great Wall,the Peking Opera, you know, dim
(02:50):
sum restaurant, all this and soevery day.
.
.
And that job was a little bitchallenging because I dealt with
some cranky celebrities andproducers and things like that.
So it was, you know, tough asthose first jobs go.
And I would just look at thiscalendar and it just planted the
seed in my head of I'm justgoing to get out of here and go
(03:12):
travel the world and move toAsia.
So I moved to China teachingEnglish, and I've been thinking
about this recently because fromteaching English to starting my
marketing career, it was, itwas really a challenging time
because I loved being in Chinabut I didn't know how on earth I
was going to stay withoutteaching English because I just
(03:35):
it was not my passion, wasn'twhat I wanted to do, and I got
this really great opportunity totransition from teaching to
being a marketing assistant fortwo entrepreneurs.
Okay, and so this reallystarted my journey with
marketing and this trend thatjust is a through line of my
(03:56):
life of always working directlywith entrepreneurs and with
investors.
So my first parlay intomarketing was in that and every
single company I've worked inafter has been directly with
founders and investors to growand scale their businesses.
But what's unique about thatposition, which I think a lot of
(04:18):
us can relate to, is when youare working directly with an
entrepreneur and a lot of thepeople listening here.
Maybe you have a social mediamanager, maybe you have someone
writing blogs for you or doingvarious things to help assist
you.
You know we kind of expect alot from that person.
But the problem is is that ifthat person doesn't come with a
(04:40):
lot of experience, theircapabilities are really only
going to be, as can only develop, as much as the ones above them
, their managers right, andthat's you right.
So a lot of folks get reallyfrustrated because they expect
their social media manager ortheir virtual assistant to be
(05:03):
able to create like a profitablesales and marketing program for
their business.
Let's face it right.
But the reality is is just it'sit's not oftentimes even
possible because those peoplejust don't have enough
experience.
They don't understand the fullpicture.
So that was me in the beginningof my career, with a lot of
pressure from, again, investorsare not the most forgiving bunch
(05:27):
of folks right when you saythings like that.
So I really began what I calllike a trial by fire education
in how to grow a businessthrough marketing and learning
about all the pieces ofmarketing.
And so I've been able to youknow, beyond that first
experience again workconsistently with entrepreneurs
(05:48):
directly and I've been able tohave my hands in a wide variety
of businesses and a variety ofstages.
So I've worked with, you know,early stage startup, pre-revenue
companies like just gettingthose first, you know, first
organizing the first bits of itall the way to scale and growth.
(06:08):
And I've been able to work withentrepreneurs, very experienced
entrepreneurs, because this hasbeen my learning path, just
finding more and more advancedentrepreneurs to learn from, to
expand my marketing knowledge.
But I've been able to, you know, work with entrepreneurs that
have built billion dollarunicorn businesses.
So I really run the gamut onwhat are the stages for
(06:30):
marketing for each of thesebusinesses and we can go a
little bit into that.
But that's sort of thefoundation of this framework
that I built, which I call thescalable marketing machine,
which is really like what arethe elements that you need to
have in place to be able to haveyour marketing grow and scale
your business for you and smartentrepreneurs start this early
(06:54):
on, that they start methodicallycreating their business, their
sales and marketing aroundsystems.
Right, you don't have to be ingrowth and scale mode to put
systems in place, and so that'swhat we can talk a little bit
about, because I see time andtime again you know, I've worked
with again a wide variety ofbusinesses, but I've worked with
(07:15):
strong leaders, I've workedwith weak leaders and I've seen
who are the ones that have thesuccess and ultimately, in my
opinion, or what I'veexperienced, is that those that
are building things against aproven framework and building
them against systems are theones that are able to grow
(07:36):
faster and have success faster,simply because a system allows
you to methodically implement,iterate, and improve upon things
, whereas what keeps many, manyfolks stuck for years is this
kind of execution, randomlytrying a lot of things, throwing
(07:57):
spaghetti at the wall, so tospeak.
Janice Hostager (07:59):
Right, oh, that is so true.
And I really resonate with whatyou're saying about the systems
.
I mean I started out with adesign agency and I found and
because I'm really ADD, so Iwould find like little notes
scribbled on pieces of paper andsticky notes that felt had
fallen off the computer and fallinto the floor, kind of thing.
And you know, I realized reallyearly on that if I didn't have
(08:22):
a system for myself, that I wasdoomed, I mean just keeping
track of notes from clients andyou know just my hours that I
spent on something andeverything like that.
So I 100% agree with you there.
And I also think you'reabsolutely spot on about people
hiring like not even their firsthire, maybe it would be a
(08:44):
virtual assistant that you wantto do social media, and I see
that a lot with social media andI know that we were gonna
actually talk about social mediatoday.
We just, I just have a lot ofthings I wanted to cover also.
But yeah, I think you're spoton.
People expect young, newgraduate, new college grads to
have this social mediaexperience and they do, just in
(09:06):
their own world, you know.
But aligning social media withmarketing is a whole different
ballgame.
So I'm really glad that thatyou spoke to that, for sure,
Victoria Hajjar (09:16):
Yeah 100%, 100% .
And I think, just to go back tothat point.
You know I see this over andover and over again and people
waste a lot of money.
This is going to be a littlebit of a plug to hire folks like
Janice and I.
Right, because no, because itreally.
You waste an incredible amountof money hiring folks off Fiverr
(09:38):
or getting you know a socialmedia manager, for example.
That's yeah, they'll turn outyour email, they'll do.
They'll put the they'll email,they'll put the posts together,
they'll schedule them.
And what often is lacking fromthese folks are A sort of the
high level, 10,000 foot view ofhow sales and marketing work in
your business.
Because if no one in your wholecompany, your whole business,
(10:03):
has that view, it's going to bevery difficult to ensure that
any of the sales and marketingactivities are really working in
accordance with each other.
Typically, it's easy to findexecutors, but we're we can't
expect our executors to also beour strategists.
That's why strategy andexecution are often very
different.
That's why folks like Janiceand I are very good.
(10:26):
Maybe we're not, you know theones that will be very good
toiling away in an Excelspreadsheet and and, and you
know, doing the very smalldetail oriented things.
That's why we carry that 10,000foot view and we're able to
worry about managing theoutcomes of each one of these
stages of the marketing strategy.
And that's, if you can't afforda marketing director or chief
(10:50):
marketing officer and you're thebusiness owner, that's your
role, that's your role to stepup into that role, because sales
and marketing is the lifebloodof your business.
So if there's no one in yourteam that understands how it
works and how to get success outof it, then you're going to
flounder for a long time.
Janice Hostager (11:11):
Yes, yes, yeah.
I just had a client a coupleweeks ago that had been for
years paying somebody to postthree times a week on their
social media platforms and thereally cute little graphics.
But it was more like you know,happy Friday and you know it's
just like it had, there was nostrategy behind it at all and
(11:34):
the owner was so frustrated, Imean, and and she really, it
took a long time for her torealize that yes, this isn't you
know it's it's wasting money.
You know, and nobody wants tofeel that way when you started
out.
And I get it.
I mean, you are running abusiness, you are so focused on
the other things that justgetting the doing the things
(11:55):
right, so the the trying to dosocial media on top of that,
trying to even execute a planbeyond that in is and that's
what I had actually had to do inmy business too is once I
started realizing that socialmedia was not going to do it,
SEO was not going to do it.
They all had to fit togethersomehow some way, and so I
(12:17):
developed what you call theflywheel.
I call it to Trail to the Sale,but it's the same kind of thing
.
It's like a whole customerjourney map, basically laid out
step by step, and what you needto focus on in each of those
steps, which makes your managingin marketing so much more
manageable to boot.
Victoria Hajjar (12:33):
And then you can really you can focus on the
tactics, right, it's kind oflike so let's talk.
I know you want to talk aboutsocial media.
I think this is a really goodparlay into that, because the
example that you just gave about, you know, a happy Friday post
and just like quotes and thingslike that Pre 2020, I would say
(12:56):
that those sort of things wereworking right.
Pre COVID, I feel likemarketing you know a lot of us
in marketing and, right, we'vegot a lot of marketers also
listening to this this idea oflike the content train.
Right, you just got to keep itgoing, you got to just keep
showing up.
Janice Hostager (13:10):
Yeah.
Victoria Hajjar (13:11):
But I believe that COVID really marked and
TikTok really brought about this, which is like a whole leveling
up of the quality of content onsocial media, and I think that
any of us that are functioningin that old paradigm we're just
not going to see the results,because what you said reminded
me, like there's one marketingagency here in Miami, which will
(13:35):
go unnamed, that never sendemails, never, ever, ever send
emails Only.
It's like you know, happyholidays, happy new year.
They only will send anewsletter for a holiday to wish
that the person a happy holiday, and the idea is like we're
(13:55):
just going to stay in front ofmind, but they're in my inbox.
I'm still subscribed.
They're missing a hugeopportunity and that is to be
really, truly adding value.
Right, we can truly be addingvalue and we see, especially
with the Gen Zers who have grownup in front of the screen, the
(14:15):
quality of their content theychurn out, the quality of their
hooks, the pace at which they goon to trends, like we've been
able to see some breakoutbusinesses.
In fact, I have severalfounders that I mentor whose
businesses absolutely explodedin 2020 simply because they were
(14:36):
able to capture that audienceon TikTok.
They were churning out funny,entertaining content.
They were popping on the trendsand they were able to grow
their followership to you knowhalf a million or a million
followers in a very short periodof time.
And so then they have abusiness, they have an audience.
(14:57):
But what's interesting to goback to the idea of the flywheel
is that a lot of thosebusinesses if we look at last
year, from 2022 to now,product-based businesses are at
a desperate decline because thatwave of TikTok, that board a
lot of influencers and then theysell products because they
didn't have this full journeyright the flywheel, or the you
(15:20):
know what you call it to thesale, right the Trail to the
Sale, as this, you know, as thatstrategic piece, that high
level strategy was not in place.
Many of them could not sustainthe businesses because they went
from organic, then organicstopped working, they went
straight to paid ad.
They did not have a fullflywheel strategy working and so
(15:41):
, okay, ads were cheap in 2022,but guess what?
End of 2022, 23, 24, ads arenot possible anymore and so many
, many businesses just shuttheir doors because they didn't
build community, they didn'tnurture them, they didn't build
a relationship, they didn'tbring them on the sales journey.
You know, they didn't do any ofthose pieces because they
(16:03):
didn't have that 10,000 footview that's so important.
So, to touch back on to tosocial though and a lot of us
are expecting that, okay, well,I don't want to dive into that
just yet.
So let's just put that there,because we can jump from thing
to thing, but we can talk alittle bit more about social
media and what role it plays.
Janice Hostager (16:26):
Well, and I agree and actually I was going
to talk a little bit aboutsocial media in that when you're
looking at what a smallbusiness does, is they often do
that is the first thing thatthey want to farm out or get
somebody else to do is theirsocial media, and the thing and
you touch on this to socialmedia is constantly in flux.
(16:46):
I think it is the hardest thingto have a strategy behind,
because what worked last yearisn't working this year, and so
I think there are some basicsyou want people to know, like
and trust you.
That's one of the things thatsocial media does really well.
If you're authentic behind acamera, if you have time to make
videos or get in front of thescreen, I think social media is
(17:08):
great for that.
But it's a crowded playing fieldright now and you have to be
able to stand out with somestellar hooks.
You have to develop a following.
You have that community, sothere's a lot of things that
have changed and shifted.
(17:28):
And of course, the algorithmkeeps, you know, getting changed
around a lot.
You know TikTok is, I think, aseparate thing and right now
we're in February 2025.
We don't know if TikTok is goingto stick around or not, but
we'll say Instagram, which,again, all the social media,
anything meta now has changedbecause of the lack of
monitoring now at this point intime, and so everything is kind
of in flux.
So I think a strategy is reallyimportant, but what do you
(17:53):
think is really key to have astrategy behind, or what does
that strategy look like forsocial media if you don't
necessarily know where to start?
Victoria Hajjar (18:08):
So I want everyone listening to be able to
take that lens and pull it backto that 10,000 foot view,
because the very first questionyou need to ask yourself is you
know how much time, energy,effort, investment do I have to
put into my business?
That's like the first layer weneed to really look at, because
we need to get honest withourselves, right, because if we
(18:31):
don't have the time but we dohave money, that's going to give
us some options.
If we don't have the money butwe do have time, that's going to
create a different situationfor us.
So let's go into the situationthat most people have, which is
more time than money right?
To work on their business.
And you're looking like.
You're thinking like I want togrow through social media, right
?
The first, the next questionyou need to ask yourself is you
(19:01):
know how serious am I willing totake this social media platform
?
And when you're first startingout, I would really highly
recommend only focusing on oneplatform.
I think it's again.
I think it's totally fine to bepushing content out to other
platforms automatically, but Iwould choose one platform to
really be the one where you'refocused on growth, okay, and If
(19:22):
you're using social media forgrowth and, by the way, there's
many other ways that you cangrow so I want everyone to keep
that in mind, because I thinkpeople think that social media
is their only choice, and itbecomes a problem when people
are like I hate social media, Idon't personally like to spend
time on it, I don't enjoy makingcontent, it takes me too long.
If that's you, I would highlysuggest considering a different
(19:44):
way to grow, and there's otherways to grow that are equally as
free as organic social media.
So, okay, we've decided thatwe're using social media for
growth, social media for growth,if this is something that
you're serious about, I wouldimmediately follow all of Gary
Vee's content.
I would read all of his booksbecause he's really good at
(20:08):
bringing to reality what ittakes to win on social in
today's market.
And, as I was commenting beforeabout 2020, right, the total
paradigm shift and a lot of ushas talked about this a lot
where the algorithm changed toreally being able to serve
people content based on theirinterests rather than who they
(20:31):
were following, right.
And so in the old paradigm,it's like okay, these are who
you follow.
Then the algorithm is going tomake assumptions about what you
like, based on you know who youfollow and who's following you
and all that stuff.
In the new world this for youpage, where they're just trying
to grab our attention, grab ourattention, grab our attention it
just shifted everything,because now, whatever you look
(20:53):
at, they're just going to feedyou more of.
And it's just so ridiculousbecause she's like, oh, you know
they must, she must have a dog,let's feed her more dog stuff.
Or like, oh, she's interestedin under eye cream, let's just
feed her under eye cream, right?
So this is how the algorithm isworking, and so that's why the
competitiveness of the contenthas gone through the roof,
(21:15):
because we're just competing tograb, grab, grab, grab, grab
attention, because that'sultimately going to get our
content pushed out to moreaudiences.
And if you're using social mediaas a growth strategy, your only
metric you should be trackingis impressions.
Are we getting our content togo viral, and what does it take
(21:35):
to go viral?
It takes pushing out a lot ofcontent.
So the founders that I mentorand I work with.
If they're doing an Instagramstrategy to grow their business,
you better believe that they'reposting, at least three times a
day, really good, well thoughtout content.
This is no more of the quotesand passive stuff.
(22:02):
This is actively creatingcontent each and every week or
each and every day,understanding the sending, the
trending sound, the trendinggraphics, the dances, all of the
all of that is important If youreally want to build content
that's going to get you resultsin terms of leads into your
business, right.
And if you're not able to bedoing content and social media
(22:26):
at that pace, then I would youhave two options.
You can either hire it out tohelp someone, to get someone to
help you to create the volume ofthat content, to really stay on
top of it, and that's not justa passive social media person,
just anyone you could find onthe internet.
That's someone that takes theirjob seriously and it is an
(22:46):
investment.
You should invest in someonethat is experienced as a sidebar
when you're creating your youknow your whole marketing
strategy.
We need to think about makingthose strategic investments.
So if you're like, nope, socialmedia is where I'm going to get
my leads, then that's a placeyou need to invest right and
doing it well.
Now.
If that's not the case andyou're like, okay, you're
(23:08):
cringing a little bit with mesaying all this and like maybe
social media is not for me.
We still need social media.
But then it takes a completelydifferent uh turn where we're
focused more on value-basedcontent, like no interest,
nurture.
It becomes a part of ournurture strategy.
Doesn't matter if things goviral, we just want people to
connect with us as the businessowner.
(23:29):
We want people to connect withthe value we bring them,
understand our products,understand our offers, and so
the pressure is taken off.
It still needs to be goodquality, but it doesn't have to
be quite as high frequency, itdoesn't have to be quite as
intense with paying attention tothose trends.
(23:54):
So I think it's it's reallyimportant for us to know what
game we're playing when it comesto social media because, again,
most people I talked to thinkthey're playing the, the, the.
You know, reaching newaudiences, getting leads from
social media.
That's typically the only thingthey're doing in the awareness
phase, right, that first stageof that client journey, and then
they're asking and wonderingwhy they're not getting any
leads.
Why are they not getting anyresults?
(24:15):
Because they're not utilizingsocial media in the way that's
going to deliver the results forthem.
You know.
Janice Hostager (24:22):
So what do you have to say to the individual
that just hates being on socialmedia, doesn't do it on a
personal basis, they feel likethey have to do it for work.
Where would you suggest thatthey invest their time and
energy if they don't want to dosocial, or want to do social
like kind of a back burner?
kind of thing,
Victoria Hajjar (24:42):
I do think it's really important to have social
as a component of yourmarketing strategy.
But, again, you can do,honestly, even if you're the
fellow that was doing the quotes, that's fine.
If that's part of your brandand it makes sense for you and
you just want to churn outquotes or whatever and just stay
active.
It's just.
You know, many people go tosocial first to just legitimize.
Like is this business evenstill open?
(25:03):
Like, do they even exist?
Honestly, oftentimes people aregoing to your LinkedIn, they're
going to your Instagram orgoing to your Facebook,
depending on who your targetclient is, and so I think it's,
I think it could work againstyou if you're, if you're not
present, you don't exist.
Now, that said, I think youknow if you're really not paying
a lot of attention to growth, Iwouldn't go to all of the
(25:23):
channels, because it alsodoesn't look good to have like
zero followers and zero.
So you could definitely build anice respectable amount of
following, not do anything toocrazy.
I would say just invest inmaking sure you're posting, you
know, at least three times aweek, for example, things that
are relative to your business,things that are relevant to your
target client.
So that should be going in someway.
(25:43):
You can do it yourself or youcan have a virtual assistant do
that.
But let's look at other waysthat we can grow, because the
(26:15):
one question I want everyone toask themselves is like what is
the purpose of marketing for mybusiness because it could be
different for differentbusinesses.
If you have like a B2Bbusiness, that's very very high
ticket.
You are a high level consultantand you charge tens of
thousands of dollars to workwith someone.
It's going to be a verydifferent strategy than if you
have a product based businessand you're just trying to get
someone to your landing page topurchase something.
Completely different strategy.
So level one is understandwhat's the purpose.
Right, once you identify thepurpose, then we can start
putting some metrics to it.
Like, if it's, you know, purelyto drive leads, then we need to
be measuring how many leadswe're getting.
It's purely to drive brandawareness, we need to be
(26:36):
measuring, you know, impressionsthings like that.
Or you know exposure andaudience sizes that we're
getting in front of.
But once you decide what thepurpose of marketing is for you,
then we need to really focus inon that first stage of the of
the flywheel of the journey,which is that awareness.
Right, like we need people toknow about our business and if
(26:57):
it's not social media thatyou're using for that, there's a
couple other things you can do.
There's, I mean, I like toidentify, like there's typically
only three ways that you cangrow your business.
It's through ads, which noteveryone has the budget for.
There's leveraging otherpeople's audiences, which is,
you know, partnerships throughbrand partnerships through
(27:19):
influencers right, we could beright, PR, things like that.
And the third is really searchengine optimization, right, it's
like are people finding you?
The last and fourth one that Iwould also say is an important
one, but it depends on yourbusiness is like a cold outbound
strategy which I would put intothat awareness bucket.
(27:41):
If you're a service-basedbusiness, you could invest in
getting lists of your targetclient and just reaching out to
them, picking up the phone,opening up conversations,
connecting with them on LinkedIn, dming them, sending them
emails.
You don't have to be thisincessant, annoying cold callers
(28:02):
, but this is still an extremelyeffective way to open up
opportunities, right?
If you're a product-basedbusiness, this could look like
getting wholesaler lists,getting boutique owner lists,
things like that, and reallyjust trying to actively network
and leverage relationships tobuild to get customers and get
(28:22):
clients.
So there's that outbound.
There's SEO, which again couldbe search engine optimization
for search platforms, for AI, oralso very relevant, search for
social media, right.
More and more people useInstagram.
You know TikTok.
If TikTok is going to be aroundwhen everyone's listening to
this as a search engine, right,they're looking for recipes,
(28:46):
they're looking for hotels,they're looking for products,
they're looking for advice andthey use those search bars just
like a search engine.
So that's another way we canconnect with people searching
for what we need.
And then again, leveragingother people's audiences and
partnerships is my absolutefavorite way to grow for new
businesses that don't have a lotof investment, that they're not
(29:07):
funded.
The easiest way that you can geta bunch of people into your
email list at one time is likedo a workshop with with another
business owner, do an event,right.
Leverage each other's audiencesso you can introduce your
audiences to to your.
You know your another businessowner, another business, and
(29:27):
they'll do the same for you.
And if you plug, you know oneof those a month into your
calendar to be doing thesethings, you'll find yourself
having grown your email listquite significantly by the end
of the year.
So this is a really, reallygreat way to grow when you're
first getting started.
Janice Hostager (29:45):
Yeah, yeah, and I would agree with those tips.
There's one, though, I want toclarify a little bit is that I'd
never recommend that thatbusinesses buy an email list,
because they can get you flaggedas a spammer.
So when you're talking aboutlists, I'm assuming you're
talking about like a regularmail list, right?
Victoria Hajjar (30:01):
Well, I guess in my experience, like if you
buy a list and you do a blastemail to everyone, that is
absolutely against rules.
If you get into a community andthey're, for example, really
great way to do this is, let'ssay, you want to be in community
with your target client, right?
(30:21):
Oftentimes those havedirectories.
You can start with thatdirectory and I really do
encourage people to reach outlike one-to-one.
If you get someone's contactinformation and you reach out
one-to-one, not an email blast,don't put them on your email
marketing campaigns.
No, it's actually justintroducing yourself.
(30:41):
That's completely kosher, it'scompletely fine.
And again, a lot of people willjust ignore you.
That's fine.
But you could begin to openthese conversations and the key
to this is how personable canyou get?
So, in the idea of goingthrough communities, this is a
really, really great strategy.
Let's say that you sell tolawyers, right?
(31:03):
There's a wonderful groupcalled Ms Esquire and they're
all the female lawyers ofAmerica and they have a Facebook
group and they have likelunches and events, things like
that, and you sell to lawyers.
Get yourself into that group.
There's maybe a small fee topay, but you can go to the
events and you'll get access tothe directory and you can reach
out to those lawyers one by oneand say, hey, we're both in Ms
(31:26):
Esquire group, I do this andthis.
If you ever need help with that.
This is where you are doingthis outbound.
It's cold, quote, unquote, butno, it's warm because you have a
connection right.
The cold outbound where you'rebuying lists of 10,000 and just
cold blasting them is absolutelydoesn't work.
I mean, it does, it does, butit takes a lot of time and a lot
(31:49):
of times, a lot of investmentto actually see the fruits of a
strategy like that.
Janice Hostager (31:54):
Yeah yeah.
It jumps right from awarenessto sale, with missing all the
pieces that are in between that.
So I'm glad you clarified that,thank you.
So have you worked withinfluencers?
Victoria Hajjar (32:08):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Janice Hostager (32:09):
So so what tips you have?
Do you feel like that'ssomething that newer businesses
should maybe avoid at the outset, or do you think because it can
be very powerful?
Influencers can be verypowerful.
How do you feel like like a new, newer startup or a solopreneur
can work with an influencer?
Victoria Hajjar (32:27):
Okay, I think first you have to identify your
needs.
So I think there definitely isa distinction between influencer
and a content creator.
So you can, if you need likereally good, authentic, like
looking like user generatedcontent to be able to share
because that's really reallyimportant and powerful, you can
(32:47):
simply hire people to do that onFiverr or whatever, and they
may have small audiences, butusually not influencer level
audiences and because oftentimeswhen we're getting influencers,
when we're just starting and wedon't want to pay for their
engagement, we just want thecontent right.
We want like the content thatfeels authentic, because that's
(33:12):
the stuff that really thatreally produces.
So if you're like, oh, I've gotthe content, I got that dialed
in.
I really want to grow throughinfluencers, there's a couple
ways to do it.
Can you find influencers towork with for free?
Still, yes, it's possible, butagain, a lot of this is based on
relationships.
So you're going to want to beidentifying some people to work
(33:33):
with like influencers.
I would shortlist, you know Ilove to do things like let's do
it like a dream 100 list.
Let's say who's like our 100top influencers that we would
like love to work with, and Iwould be connecting with those
individually honestly like tryto do you know five or 10, you
know every week and little bylittle you send a personal DM,
you open the relationships, youexplain, you know what your
(33:56):
business is all about and if youget some nice conversations
going, you can kind of enterthat way.
And I think that this is themissing piece that people need
to not forget about.
Influencer marketing is a lotabout relationships, right, if
you're at the level where youwant to be purely transactional
(34:17):
with influencers, then you needto be very careful about who
you're working with.
They need to have a reputationfor being um, you know that
they're delivering what theypromise, all of that stuff.
Because there is a little bitof an economy going there where
there are folks that kind of lieabout how many followers they
have and what their productionis, that I've been in situations
(34:41):
before where they just likepromise to do X, y and Z and
they don't.
So if you're consideringworking with influencers, the
first thing I would say isrelationships first.
So make sure that you meet thembeforehand, that you guys get a
vibe of each other, that youget it get along well, and that
there is something in writingabout what each side is going to
(35:03):
provide, like really organizeit right.
That's that's like the basics.
And then I would say you know,if you're considering investing
right in the working withinfluencer, just like a job
interview, I would say, couldyou give me some references of
who people you've worked withbefore, just to ensure that the
(35:26):
experience is going to be apositive one?
Because if you're a smallerbusiness just just starting out
and you're going to invest acouple thousand dollars to work
with an influencer, you want tomake sure you're going to get
your return on investment forthat and that it is going to be
a good experience for you.
And then the other thing is isthat if you're still, if you're
(35:46):
in the earlier stage, to don'tdiscount folks that have small,
like these micro influencers canbe extremely, extremely
effective.
10,000 and you and listen, weoften forget this, but like
start within our own network,I'm sure we all have like
friends or cousins or likenieces of aunts, of the no, I
(36:08):
don't know who we have an actualimmediate connection with.
Let's start with our ownnetwork first and again.
Even if, like you know, cousinSarah has like 10,000, you know
she's really on top of Instagramand had 10,000.
She's a great, if it makessense for your brand right, she
would be a great ad.
Janice Hostager (36:27):
Yeah, and locally.
If you have a local businesstoo, it's a lot, although I
think they can, if they're goodand they're local.
It can be a little moreexpensive, depending on what,
who you're after.
But you know, don't like, likeyou said, don't overlook your
community.
I love that.
Yeah, so are there.
Do you feel like there's someoverlooked strategies for
(36:49):
increasing the customer lifetimevalue using Instagram that
you've worked with, or what areyour thoughts on that?
Victoria Hajjar (36:59):
Using Instagram .
Well, I think again yes.
Janice Hostager (37:06):
Or social media in general.
Victoria Hajjar (37:08):
I think we want to really get a good handle on
how we're going, how you'regoing to utilize the user
generated content, how you'regoing to shout out your
customers and your clients likethis, and I guess, if you're
really looking to increaselifetime value, the first thing
I would say is you know, how areyou really building community
around your brand?
(37:29):
And ways we can do that isreally, again, getting our
community involved in ourmarketing is the best way that
you can increase not only LTVbut also enhance the word of
mouth.
Right, people are going to feelbetter about your brand.
They're going to recommend you,and that's a very, very
powerful thing.
(37:53):
So, um, you know, asking forusers to be, uh, giving honest
reviews and doing videos andthen saying that they'll be
featured on your Instagram, likethese, are incredible things
that let me tell you, especiallyfor the newer folks that dream
of being influencers which,let's face it, are like a lot of
kids out there a lot of peopleout there that dream of that.
That's a really greatopportunity for them to have
that reciprocity where you'regoing to feature them Right.
(38:15):
I've had brands that I'veworked with that do regular.
It's a regular spot wherethey're always doing customer
features or, you know, it's notjust testimonials, it's like
anything that they post, likerepost it, give them a shout out
.
I've had those businesses alsoutilize that content for their
newsletters as well.
I've also, you know, again, ifwe're looking at influencers,
(38:37):
you know, look at your owncustomers, look within your own
community.
Has anyone bought from you inthe past 90 days that have like
over 5,000 followers?
And again, micro influencersare fine.
We just have to see is thereanyone of our customers or
clients that are taking thisseriously right, that are
producing high quality content?
We can start there.
(38:57):
So it's all about how do youkind of bring it back to
community building and buildingthe relationship with your
current customers.
That's going to foster kind ofgood vibes inside them to keep
coming back and also torecommend you.
Janice Hostager (39:13):
Good stuff.
This is all good stuff.
Victoria Hajjar (39:15):
Right,
Janice Hostager (39:17):
It's hard, it's all a lot, and I you know
anybody that runs a businessunderstands that that you're
dealing with so many terms youdon't know and you're trying to
just run your business day today and you're dealing with all
this, this marketing stuff andit just comes at you so fast and
you feel like that feeling inyour pit of your stomach and
you're like what if I should bedoing that instead?
(39:39):
Or you know, so it really doespay off to have a strategy in
place, either with someone likeVictoria, who works with a
little larger businesses is, oractually myself too.
But you know, just having thatstructure down and you know, in
a lot of this you can get a freedownload and kind of work on it
yourself until you get to thepoint where you are ready to
(40:02):
invest a little more into it, orable to, for sure.
Victoria Hajjar (40:05):
One thing that I always like to remind people
in this journey, like we, Ithink we expect things to go
really fast.
We also read these articles ofthese really well-funded
companies that have this massivegrowth in a short period of
time, but the reality is, formost of us it's going to be a
slow burn, and I always like tosay you don't have to go fast,
(40:26):
you just have to keep going andyou're going to learn little by
little, right, and you can getstarted with a lot of free
resources.
But I think, Janice, you'dagree with me the key to
building out like an effectiveclient journey is first, just
doing one thing at a time.
So, for the marketing flywheel,for the client journey, however
(40:49):
, whatever you call it right,the Trail to the Sale, you've
got various steps right that aregoing to bring people from
first knowing about you toconverting into paying customers
and then raving fans right.
That's the general gist of theclient journey, and so if you
want to be able to methodically,you know, plug away and learn,
(41:10):
and improve.
It's like listen, we got it.
We have to work first to doingone activity for each one of
these stages.
So that means awareness phaseokay, 2025, I'm just going to do
a partnership strategy.
I'm going to give myself atarget of doing one joint
partnership event or workshop orsomething per month.
At the end of the year, I willhave 12.
(41:33):
The next is an engage right, alead magnet.
Let's just we're going toiterate and approve upon one
lead magnet.
We've got one lead magnet.
We can play around with what wecall it.
We can play around with the,you know describing what it is,
but we're not going to createany more right and then nurture.
We're only going to work onthis social platform.
We're going to do the best thatwe can on one social platform.
And so, piece by piece, you'rebuilding this journey one step
(41:55):
at a time, and you're going tomake a tremendous amount of
progress, even though it's goingto feel like a snail's pace
while you're at it, but littleby little, you're going to be
building kind of the bricks uponthe house that you will build,
this strong, with a strongfoundation, this marketing and
sales engine for yourself.
So it's like we want it all andwe want it all right now, but
(42:17):
if we can have the discipline tojust go bit by bit, I promise
at the end of the year you'll belight years away from others in
your industry.
Janice Hostager (42:28):
Great, great advice, and that is absolutely
true.
But I honestly think too, if wehad it all right away, we
wouldn't know what to do with it, we didn't know how to handle
it.
So it's, you know, in some waysa real blessing that we have to
learn everything as we go,because, as my coach likes to
say, what got you here won't getyou there.
So you know, like you figureout one thing and at one level,
(42:49):
and then to grow your businessto the next level, you're going
to have to learn some new things.
So it's all a journey, right?
So that's what makes it fun.
Victoria Hajjar (42:56):
Honestly, I've seen this time and time again,
that I've seen businesses thathave those fast rises, but guess
what?
Things start to absolutelybreak just in different ways.
Right, you have a fast rise.
Then oftentimes there's a lotof things breaking behind the
scenes because you haven'tlearned the lessons.
So, again, that slow burn isoften the recipe for something
(43:19):
that's sustainable.
That's why a lot of especiallyin the smaller businesses, you
see people that are in businessfor 20, 30, 40 years.
It's not that it all came tothem in one year or in two years
.
Janice Hostager (43:34):
Absolutely.
Victoria.
How can people learn more aboutyou?
Victoria Hajjar (43:38):
Oh well I this has been such a pleasure.
Thank you so much.
So my business is called UgliVentures with an I, so it's U G
L I V E N T U R E S.
Janice Hostager (43:49):
Yes, okay, I have to ask how you got that
name.
Victoria Hajjar (43:52):
Yes, because this all came to the around the
concept of business being reallyugly sometimes.
So when I was really strugglingin the beginning of my career, I
just thought, like this is theworst part of business the sales
and marketing.
It is the hardest, is the mostpressure right, and so I
dedicated my life essentially toreally putting in the systems
and frameworks to turn this mostugly part of business into
(44:14):
something that we can feel isbeautiful and manageable and
under control.
So Ugli Ventures is thebusiness, and if you go to
ugliventurescom backslashresources there's a ton of free
guides on how you can in factstart this climb journey that
we're speaking of.
Right, a guide on how you cango step by step and to get
started, that is all you need.
(44:35):
You just have to start learningand, again, building it piece
by piece, and when you're readyand you start seeing some
traction, then you'll be able tohire folks to help you and
maybe even higher level folks tohelp run the things.
But again, if it's you in thebeginning, you just got to roll
up your sleeves and you got tolearn it yourself.
Janice Hostager (44:54):
That is such great advice.
Thank you so much for beinghere today, Victoria.
I appreciate your time and forsharing all your wisdom.
Victoria Hajjar (45:01):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Janice Hostager (45:04):
Thanks so much for tuning in today.
If you found value in today'sdiscussion to learn more about
Victoria and anything we talkedabout on the episode today,
visit myweeklymarketingcomforward slash 96.
And don't forget to subscribeto My Weekly Marketing for more
insights into growing your smallbusiness.
Remember, marketing isn't justabout what you do.
(45:25):
It's about the stories you telland the connections you make.
So keep hustling and keepinnovating and watch your
business grow.
See you next time.
Bye for now.
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