122. MyMaine Birth: Nikki's Two FreeBirth Stories and Her Experience with The Radical BirthKeeper School and MatriBirth Midwifery Institute

Episode Transcript
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Nikki (00:00):
And coming out of MMI, which is the second free birth
society course that I took,coming out of that I realized
that doula isn't a bad word.
I think we were kind of I'mgoing to use the word
brainwashed or conditioned.
I was at least, you know, I canonly speak for myself I was

(00:20):
conditioned by the free birthsociety that doula is a bad word
, that you don't want to be adoula, you don't want to be a
medical midwife, those thingsare bad and you want to be this
other thing.
So first they were using theterm birthkeeper, which I think
is a fine word to use.
It's, you know, a woman who'sattending a birth, not doing

(00:43):
anything medical, like a doula,but in the absence of any
medical provider.
So typically a birth keeper isgoing to be there.
There's no midwife, there's nodoctor, she's not doing anything
medical, so she's acting as adoula.
But typically a doula is goingto work in the presence of a
doctor or a midwife.

(01:03):
So I guess that's the bigdifference.
But for some reason the wordbirthkeeper shifted, and Emily
and Yolanda and some of theseother free birth advocate or
educators, whatever you want tocall them, for some reason the
term birthkeeper shifted and nowthey want to be midwives and I

(01:27):
think that kind of muddies thewaters, because most people are
going to see a midwife as awoman who is coming to a birth
with medical skills and hands onskills.
So these birth keepers, I reallydo think it's just a separate
thing and there's nothing wrongwith it.

(01:48):
There's nothing wrong withbeing a birth keeper, there's
nothing wrong with being a doula.
But I think it's very, veryimportant to be completely
transparent and honest with yourexperience level.
And of course, I do want togive Emily and Yolanda some
credit here.
They have always as from thetrainings I've taken with them,
they are always encouragingwomen to be honest and to be

(02:12):
transparent.
I've never heard them encouragewomen to lie about their
experience and they have spokento the importance of being
honest with your clients.
But I think using the wordmidwife if you don't have that
sort of medical training andhands-on skills, I do think that
can be very misleading.

Angela (02:35):
I'm Angela and I'm a certified birth photographer,
experienced doula, childbirtheducator and your host here on
the my Main Birth podcast.
This is a space where we sharethe real-life stories of
families and their unique birthexperiences in the beautiful
state of Maine, from our state'sbiggest hospitals to birth
center births and home births.

(02:56):
Every birth story deserves tobe heard and celebrated.
Whether you're a soon-to-be mom, a seasoned mother or simply
interested in the world of birth, these episodes are for you.
Welcome.
You're listening to episode 122of my Main Birth.
Today's birth story guest isNikki, and she is here to share

(03:20):
all about her two amazing freebirth stories, as well as her
experience with the Free BirthSociety and the programs that
they offer.
I first met Nikki last yeararound this time when we had
both signed up for theMatriBirth Midwifery Institute,
which we thought, according totheir marketing, was going to be

(03:40):
the world's leading sovereignmidwifery school.
Be the world's leadingsovereign midwifery school,
spoiler.
It was not any of that, butyeah, let's get into her story.
Hi, nikki, welcome to my MainBirth.
Hello, thank you so much fortaking the time to chat with me
today.
As you know, I very muchsupport women's rights to birth

(04:00):
where, how and with whomever shechooses.
So the purpose of theseepisodes are more to highlight
the separation of the beautifulidea of free birth, which is a
perfectly fine option for manyhealthy women, from the more
dangerous ideologies that arepromoted by the free birth
society.

Nikki (04:19):
Yeah, both things can be true, right, you can support
free birth and also recognizethat Emily and Yolanda are
ripping people off.

Angela (04:27):
So true.
So we first met each otheraround this time last year, when
we were first starting MMI,which we're going to be talking
all about.
But first will you start bysharing a little bit about you
and your family.

Nikki (04:42):
Yeah, of course.
So I have been studyingmidwifery and serving women in
the birth space for about fiveyears now.
I live in New Hampshire.
My business is Born Free Family.
I live here with my husband andmy two children, both of which

(05:03):
were free birthed.
On my property we have a littlehomestead and, yeah, for the
past couple of years I've justbeen a stay at home mom doing a
lot of homemaking andhomesteading while trying to run
my business on the side, andit's just been really wonderful.

Angela (05:20):
Amazing.
Now would you share a littlebit about your views on birth
growing up, Like what likestories did you hear around
birth while you're younger?

Nikki (05:46):
always got the impression that she it almost seemed like
she didn't really remember ordidn't care to remember.
It didn't seem like a really bigthing for her.
Just, you know, she had thestandard hospital medicalized
births, did whatever the doctorssaid, and then kind of moved on
with her life.
It wasn't a big deal for her.
And you know, I remember lateron, maybe when I was 13 or 14,
my best friend's mother wastalking about her one day and it

(06:12):
was interesting because shepresented it as a rite of
passage of sorts, but not apositive one.
And it's so interesting becausepregnancy and birth, I do

(06:33):
believe, is a rite of passageand it can be so empowering and
so beautiful, but this womanpresented it as this horrific,
awful thing.
So after that I kind of decidedthat maybe I didn't want to
have children.
And yeah, it wasn't until I wasmaybe 20 years old that I
stumbled upon a home birth video.

(06:57):
It was actually a free birthvideo and that got birth back on
my radar and that was whatreintroduced me to birth and
showed me that birth can be thisbeautiful, wonderful thing.

Angela (07:12):
Yeah, so where did it kind of take you from there?

Nikki (07:17):
Yeah, so from there, I just knew immediately after.
So I think at that point in mylife I was already teaching yoga
, but I was looking forsomething more.
That wasn't 100% fulfilling forme.
I knew I wanted to work withwomen, but I wasn't really sure

(07:38):
exactly what my path was.
And I saw that free birth video.
It was really inspiring to meand I started doing a quick
Google search on how to become ahome birth midwife and, of
course, all Google told me wasthat you know, you have to go to
nursing school and you need tobecome a certified nurse midwife

(07:59):
to do any sort of midwifery,which, of course now I know is
very, very far from the truth.
But at that time I just I was.
I was searching for my path, soI just was going to do whatever
it took.
So I enrolled in nursing school, did that for a few years and
then, while I was in nursingschool that's when it was

(08:19):
actually my now husbandintroduced me to my mentor and
the woman that I apprenticedunder and yeah, so he was the
one that told me that there wasanother path into midwifery and
that I didn't have to go tonursing school and do all this
stuff.
So I did graduate from nursingschool, but after that I started
a midwifery apprenticeship.

Angela (08:42):
Oh my gosh, that's so cool.
I love that your husband ledyou in that direction.

Nikki (08:45):
Yeah, it was kind of funny because when he brought it
up I was very dismissive ofwhat he was saying because I'm
thinking you're just a guy, whatdo you know?
He didn't have any kids Likeyou don't know anything about
this.
And it turns out his oldroommate was a midwife and she
was training midwives in thehome that they were living in.

(09:08):
So he actually knew a lot moreabout midwifery than I did, even
at the time.

Angela (09:15):
Oh my gosh, that's amazing, wow.
So what kind of yeah happenedthen after you finished nursing
school?
How did things go for you?

Nikki (09:40):
I started my apprenticeship.
I did that for about four years.
At the time I was also workingas a doula, just trying to get
as much experience in birth as Icould.
I also worked as a nurse for alittle bit, not in any sort of
birth or you know a maternitycapacity, but I just whatever,
just a job to get through myapprenticeship.
And yeah, so I think about twoyears into my midwifery

(10:01):
apprenticeship I discovered theFree Birth Society.
It was actually my very first.
She wasn't really a client, itwas just a friend who invited me
to her birth.
It was the very first birth Iattended.
It was a home birth with amidwife and she was the woman
who introduced me to the FreeBirth Society.

(10:24):
But I didn't really get into ituntil a couple years later
Learned about the Radical BirthKeeper School and then at that
point I enrolled in the RadicalBirth Keeper School.
It just seemed based on how itwas presented to me.
It seemed like my beliefs werevery in line with them.
At this time, like I said, Iwas still doing my medical

(10:45):
midwifery apprenticeship, but Iwas looking for something more
and I was looking for somethinga little bit more outside of the
system.

Angela (10:54):
So what were your thoughts as you were going
through your apprenticeship witha midwife?
Maybe some experiences thatcame up throughout that program
that might have led you to startthe Radical Birth Keeper School
, like what were you kind ofnoticing throughout your years
during apprenticeship, that kindof led you there.

Nikki (11:12):
Yeah.
So the midwife I was workingwith was pretty respectful of
women's autonomy.
There were I don't think anyred flags were being raised at
that point for me.
I don't think any red flagswere being raised at that point
for me.
I was still very medical in mythinking from my indoctrination
in nursing school and just myentire life of indoctrination

(11:35):
that birth is in the hospitaland it's this medicalized event
and it's dangerous.
So I think it was a very slowprogression of me getting more
and more out of the system, mequestioning more things.
I think the experience Iwitnessed in birth up to that

(11:55):
point, any medical interventionthat happened, I was able to
justify it and I was able to.
I thought they were allabsolutely necessary and, like I
said, the midwife I was workingwith was relatively hands-off.
But now reflecting, now thatI've been, you know, supporting
women outside of this, of thesystem, so to speak, I can

(12:18):
reflect now and see that some ofthose things weren't entirely
necessary.
So I think the RBK program waskind of my start of questioning
medical midwifery, because whenI enrolled in the RBK school I
was kind of just looking forsomething to complement my

(12:41):
apprenticeship.
I was still fully sold on themedical midwifery model.
And yeah, it wasn't until thatprogram where I started to
question things, and a lot ofthe things that came up in that
program that Emily and Yolandataught I had never even thought
of.
There was this one time I thinkI really didn't even know what I

(13:04):
was getting myself into.
I think I was.
I don't know what I wasexpecting, but yeah, at the
beginning of the program she,emily, was talking about how
basically no medicalinterventions and no monitoring
is necessary at all, like youdon't need any prenatal care,
you don't need any of this.
Monitoring is necessary at all,like you don't need any

(13:26):
prenatal care, you don't needany of this.
And of course that was oppositeof what I had known to be true
at that point.
So we kind of went back andforth about whether things like
taking vital signs, like takingblood pressure, or taking doing
blood draws, because to me andeven now I still think this that

(13:47):
is just a method of collectinginformation and it's really what
you're going to do with thatinformation.
You know you could take a highblood pressure and just transfer
a woman and say, no, sorry,you're not my client anymore,
I'm transferring you to an OBand you can birth in a hospital,
but you don't necessarilyalways have to do that over a
high blood pressure reading.

(14:08):
So yeah, me and Emily kind ofwent back and forth on that.

Angela (14:11):
Yeah, you had like private conversations outside of
like the class or no, it wasduring class.

Nikki (14:16):
Yeah, yeah, it was pretty much all during class, but it
was interesting becausethroughout that program I think
it might have been a 12-weekprogram, but throughout that
program I think it might havebeen a 12-week program, but
throughout that program thingsslowly started to unravel for me
and some things I agreed withand some things I disagreed with
.
Because even after I completedthe RBK school, I continued on

(14:37):
with my midwifery apprenticeshipand I went into women's homes,
I took their blood pressure, Idrew their labs, I attended
births in the capacity of astudent.
So you know I'm listening toheart tones, I'm doing all of
the things that Emily andYolanda disagree with, you know.
So I think at that point in mylife I was still pretty balanced

(15:00):
.

Angela (15:00):
You know, I took what resonated with me and I still
continued to do my own thing,yeah, so you didn't feel too
manipulated then in the RBKschool with like those
conversations you were havingback and forth, or was it
manipulative?

Nikki (15:15):
I was.
I, yeah, it felt now lookingback on it, the way I was spoken
to.
I was definitely being spokendown to and almost maybe not
necessarily, I don't, you know,I don't want to assume her
intentions, but I could see howmaybe she was trying to make an
example of me as the woman whois questioning things, and I

(15:41):
think she was, and I think shewas.
I think they both were verypersuasive.
So, included in the RBK schoolyou also get access to the
Complete Guide to Free Birth.
So I took both of those coursesand I think by the end of both
of those courses I think I waspersuaded more against the

(16:06):
medical model.
You know, like I said, I wasstill doing like the classic
medical midwifery, but I wasdefinitely starting to question
things, especially things likeultrasounds.
And I remember I was working ata birth center with a different
midwife at the time and Ibrought that up to her because I
was very disturbed about what Iwas learning about ultrasounds.

(16:27):
And of course, you know,especially Yolanda presents it
as something that can be very,very dangerous for the baby.
And I have done my own researchon this and it's, you know, you
can take it both ways, but yeah,I just remember there were
things I was learning that Iwould bring to the midwives I
was apprenticing under and I wasjust so, so concerned about

(16:50):
these things that I was learningand thankfully they were able
to kind of bring me back intothe middle ground, you know.
So when it came to theultrasound, this woman told me
yes, there is potential for forharm, especially if you're doing
multiple ultrasounds, excessiveultrasounds.

(17:12):
But if you're just doing ananatomy scan at 20 weeks, that
could give you valuableinformation that you might want
to know.
And of course, women shouldhave the right to decline or
accept these sort of tests.
So I'm really grateful that Ihad women in my life, midwives

(17:33):
who were able to kind ofcomplement what I was learning
from Emily and Yolanda.
I think that really reallybenefited me to kind of keep me
more moderate and more openminded.

Angela (17:48):
Yeah, totally.
So you finished the RBK school.
How long was it until you foundout you were pregnant for the
first time after that?

Nikki (17:57):
So I think it was another two years, maybe a little less
than two years.

Angela (18:02):
So would you tell me about how you found out you were
pregnant and your thoughts inchoosing your care?

Nikki (18:09):
Yeah, so I got pregnant a month after our wedding.
So we weren't really trying,but we weren't.
You know, we were going tostart trying soon.
I guess I wasn't actually likeI had stopped using using any
sort of cycle tracking for birthcontrol.
Yes, we got pregnant veryquickly and at that point I had

(18:35):
thought that I wanted themidwife the main midwife who I
was apprenticing with.
I had thought that I had wantedher to attend my birth at that
time and it wasn't until towardsthe end of my pregnancy
actually that I had decided thatI just couldn't have her there.
I think it was a mix betweenwanting to free birth but also

(18:59):
personal issues that we werehaving.
I just had a feeling that ifshe was at my birth, that it
wouldn't end well.
Basically, I had a feeling thatI think the word sabotage is
kind of abrasive.
But yeah, I felt like I wouldbe kind of better off by myself.

(19:22):
Kind of better off by myself.

Angela (19:26):
Yeah, so how were you feeling throughout that
pregnancy?

Nikki (19:36):
Yeah, I was really excited, I was feeling really
good.
I think it is actually thefirst trimester was very rough
for me because I was workingfull time as a night shift nurse
and also I was taking doulaclients and doing a midwifery
apprenticeship, so, and I wasteaching yoga.
So I basically had like fourjobs working night shift, which
is, of course, horrible foranyone.
But it became really, reallydifficult once I got pregnant

(20:00):
and I think that caused me tohave very extreme pregnancy
symptoms.
I was very nauseous, I was sotired.
I was actually very, verydepressed in the beginning of my
pregnancy.
It was kind of a really hardpoint in my life and it was so
strange because I was so, soexcited to be pregnant.

(20:23):
I was so excited that afteryears of supporting other women,
it was finally my turn.
But I was just so sick andhaving a really hard time at my
nursing job that it kind of just, yeah, it made the first part
of my pregnancy really tough,but at about 15 weeks I had left

(20:44):
that job and focused on mybusiness.
That's when I started toseparate from the midwife I was
working with and start my ownbusiness, and I did a lot of
rebranding.
I started the blueprints for mybirth prep course.
So I started to get this newenergy after that 15 weeks and

(21:05):
started to feel really good andI was just able to be excited
and you know, move forward?

Angela (21:12):
how were you feeling towards, like, the end of your
pregnancy?

Nikki (21:16):
yeah, I think so the the whole pregnancy.
I wasn't really interested indoing very much for prenatal
care.
I had that midwife come visitme a couple of times.
Like I said, we had workedtogether for four years and she
knew that I was pretty outsideof the medical system already.
So she basically just told melisten, if you want me to order

(21:38):
a test, if you want me to comesee you, I will.
But I'm going to kind of sheknew I wasn't really interested
in too much in regard to medicalprenatal care.
So she said, yeah, just callher if you need something and
I'll leave you alone.
So I did some minimal prenataltesting, but not very much.

(21:59):
And maybe halfway through mypregnancy I guess we started to
have some complications in ourpersonal relationship and in our
business relationship.
Like I said, I started to do myown thing and we started to
separate.
And I think I was 36 weeks whenI finally broke it to her that

(22:19):
I couldn't have her at my birth.
And yeah, like I said, I just Iwas just really called to free
birth at that point and I justhad this deep inner knowing that
this was just something that Ineeded to do on my own and I
think, being pregnant whileattending births, I think it was

(22:42):
a very different experiencethan attending births, not being
pregnant and not having anykids.
I think I really started toanalyze what was going on at
these births and it was almostlike I was looking at the scene
from a lens of a woman who wasabout to give birth instead of a

(23:02):
birth worker.
You know what I mean.
So I was seeing things thatpeople were doing at these
births and I'm thinking I wouldnever want someone to come into
my birth space and do thesethings.
And it doesn't mean that thosethings are necessarily wrong or
disruptive, it just would havebeen for me personally.
So some women are veryinterested in all of the testing

(23:26):
.
You know they want to birth inthe hospital.
They don't care if nurses anddoctors that they've never met
are in their space while they'rebirthing, and that's totally
fine for them.
But I mean, this woman wasbasically my best friend and I
knew I couldn't have her there,you know.
So I think we're just alldifferent and I was.
I'm very glad that I was ableto have that insight to set

(23:50):
myself up for the birth that wasgoing to work out for me.

Angela (23:56):
What were the final weeks and then days leading up
to when your labor startedlooking like?

Nikki (24:08):
your labor started looking like yeah, I feel very
lucky that I just enjoy beingpregnant.
I feel really natural beingpregnant.
I was really focusing on mynutrition, I was focusing on
exercising, you know, preparingfor baby yeah, I it's funny
because I was setting myself upto be pregnant for, like,
mentally, I was telling myself,you know, don't expect to have

(24:29):
the baby until 42 weeks, atleast 44 weeks, because I didn't
want to be focused on that duedate and then go past it and
then be really disappointed andstart to get uncomfortable,
because I've seen so many womenhave that experience where
they're thinking, okay, I wassupposed to have this baby two
weeks ago, and that's when Ithink the end of pregnancy

(24:53):
symptoms really start to getexacerbated, because they're
thinking in their head I shouldhave already had this baby, but
I ended up having her a dayafter the projected due date.
So it's funny, I was ready in asense, but I think mentally and
spiritually I was not ready,because I'm telling myself okay,

(25:16):
you still have another twoweeks at least.
It's interesting because mymother and my mother-in-law
messaged me the day before shewas born to check in.
So I think their maternalinstincts kind of knew that
something was up, but I hadabsolutely no clue.
I remember the night before shewas born, I was in the shower

(25:38):
making a mental to-do list,thinking, okay, tomorrow I'm
going to go to the grocery storeand I'm going to make bonbons.
Thinking, okay, tomorrow I'mgoing to go to the grocery store
and I'm going to make bonbons.

Angela (25:51):
And that obviously did not happen, because I went into
labor very maybe a couple hoursafter I was having those
thoughts.
Oh my goodness, so how didthings get started?

Nikki (25:58):
Yeah, it was 2.30 in the morning.
I was just settling into bedand right when I laid down I
started having sensations.
They were pretty mild, kind oflike a lower crampy sensations,
and very soon I realized thatthey had a pattern and that I
was probably in labor.

(26:19):
But still, I think, because Ihad worked in birth for so long,
I had seen this play out somany different ways and I didn't
want to get myself too excited.
I didn't want to waste myenergy and I also saw the value
in trying to get some sleep.
So I really tried to get somesleep but it got pretty intense

(26:44):
rather quickly.
I ended up coming downstairsbecause I didn't want to wake my
husband up and yeah, I justkind of labored all night and I
think it was about five o'clockin the morning when I just
wasn't able to rest anymore.
Laying down was impossible.
I was trying really hard to getcomfortable but they were

(27:07):
starting to get really reallyintense.
So, mind you, this is onlyabout three hours into the birth
process and I think maybearound 7 o'clock my husband came
downstairs because he gotnervous because I wasn't in bed.
Stairs because he got nervousbecause I wasn't in bed.
And still, at this point, eventhough I'm having very intense

(27:29):
contractions.
I'm thinking, you know, this isprobably.
You know, I'm probably notgoing to have the baby until
later tonight, but it might, youknow, once the sun comes up it
might just fizzle out completelyand it could be a couple more
weeks, you know, because I'mthinking of all of these
different scenarios that I'veseen play out.
But no, it kept chugging alongand gradually gaining in

(27:50):
intensity.
And it's kind of funny because,you know, I told you I had that
to do list in my head.
So I'm thinking, well, I bettercheck some things off of this
to do list, you know, because Imight be having a baby tonight.
To-do list, you know, because Imight be having a baby tonight.
So I'm mopping the floors.
Thankfully I decided againstgoing to the grocery store.
That was a little too much forme.

(28:11):
But I'm mopping the floors andthey are just getting so intense
and I'm moaning through them.
And it got to the you know I'mat the end of mopping the floors
and it got to the point whereI'm having to run across the
floor to my birth ball and I'mjust really breathing through

(28:33):
them, almost screaming throughthem, and I'm thinking I better
hurry up, because I'm not goingto be able to mop these floors
for very much longer.
And at that point I wasthinking, yeah, maybe I should
run a bath and start to relax.
That was maybe at 10.

(28:53):
And yeah, so I kind of I mean,things got really intense, I'm
just trying anything I can do toget comfortable.
Nothing's working.
And at around noon my watersreleased and she was born.

(29:20):
Maybe two minutes later.
It went from super highintensity to all of a sudden she
was there, which of course thatbrought a certain sense of
relief because I'm not in theintensity of the birth process,
but it was also very, veryoverwhelming because, remember,
I'm telling myself that I'm notgoing to have her until later
tonight or later that night ormaybe even the next day.

(29:41):
So when she was born, about 10hours after the birth process
started, as a first time mom,yeah, it was very, very intense.

Angela (29:52):
How did your placenta come out?

Nikki (29:56):
Yeah, so that was kind of tricky, it didn't.
I yeah, it was very challengingto birth my placenta.
I yeah, it was very challengingto birth my placenta and I
think maybe that was because Iwasn't entirely ready to be done
with my pregnancy and I thinkmaybe just that abrupt ending of
the birth, like the main birthprocess, I think maybe that

(30:20):
could have caused some, somedifficulty with me birthing my
placenta.
Another theory is maybe Ineeded to be witnessed by
another woman in that stage.
I really do stand behind freebirth for me personally.
I mean I didn't.
During the birth process Icouldn't even really be

(30:41):
witnessed by my husband.
I mean, if he said anything oreven touched me, I was just
really.
I think for me in the birthprocess I'm just so at such a
heightened state that any extrastimulus is just too much for me
.
So most women want thatconstant attention and support

(31:03):
of their husband or anotherwoman, but for me I just really
need to go through that journeyalone and that was consistent
for me in both of my births.
I just it's a solo journey forme.
But yeah, so it was the nextday after my daughter was born
and I mean I felt like I hadtried everything to birth this

(31:28):
placenta and I wasn't reallyworried because I wasn't
excessively bleeding.
I felt really good, I didn'tfeel sick, I wasn't having any
other indicators that somethingwas wrong, but I just knew that
the placenta needed to come outand it was.
It was pretty stressful.
I was still able to establish abreastfeeding relationship with

(31:51):
my daughter.
I was still able to bond withher and start resting and
relaxing.
But still in the background ofeverything was the truth that I
needed to birth my placenta.
So, yeah, the next day Iactually the midwife, the main

(32:12):
midwife I apprenticed with sheactually texted me in the middle
of the night and asked me if mydaughter was born.
She just had this intuitivesense that it was.
It was the day of the eclipsethat she was born.
There was a solar eclipse.
So she texted me and said Idon't know if it was the eclipse

(32:35):
or I don't know if yourdaughter was born, but I, she
knew something she could senselike a shift in the energies or
something.
So when I woke up that morning,I ended up calling her and
letting her know that mydaughter was born and that the
placenta still hadn't come.
And she offered to come help meand she was able to do a

(33:01):
newborn exam.
She was able to check me fortears, so it was nice for her to
also offer those things for meand I was I think I was.
I took so long to reach out toher one because we were having a
little bit of turbulentturbulence in our relationship.
But also I was thinking it wasgoing to have to be a manual

(33:25):
extraction because, like I said,I had tried everything.
You know, at this point I'dbeen attending births for four
years and I know pretty much allof the tricks to get a placenta
out and I had never encounteredanything like this in my
practice.
And well, I had seen a coupleinstances where women weren't

(33:46):
able to birth their placenta andit required basically the
midwife going in and reachinginto her uterus and getting the
placenta.
And usually that happensbecause it's kind of suction
cupped into inside.
So I just I really didn't.
I mean, I've seen it before.
It's obviously painful, it'sobviously very uncomfortable and

(34:10):
I just didn't, I didn't wantthat.
So finally, you know, I, so Iinvite her over.
I'm thinking that that's goingto have to happen and thankfully
she wanted to try somethingless invasive.
Before doing that she had me siton a wooden birthstool.
She applied pressure to the topof my uterus With her other

(34:34):
hand, she pressed in with hertwo fingers on my pubic bone,
she had me bear down and myplacenta plopped right out.
Oh, my goodness, I could havekissed her because it was very
stressful and you know, I'mthinking she's going to have to
do this incredibly invasivemaneuver and yeah, so I was so

(34:56):
grateful to her to be able tosupport me.
Even after all of the kind ofdrama that we had had in our
personal life, even afterseparating professionally, I was
just so incredibly gratefulthat she was able to come and
support me and help me and justkind of hold space for me.
So, yeah, it was really.

(35:18):
Yeah, I'm just, I'm so gratefulfor helping me because, right,
the alternative if I didn't haveher would have been to go to
the hospital and my postpartumstory would have been very, very
different if I would have hadto go to the hospital.

Angela (35:37):
Right.
So how was your postpartum time?

Nikki (35:42):
Yeah, I mean, in some ways it was so magical and
wonderful and then in other waysit was pretty challenging.
I think you know I'm very luckyto have an easy time
breastfeeding.
So both of my children justlatched immediately, but I did

(36:02):
feel kind of unsupportedimmediately.
But I did feel kind ofunsupported I'm.
You know, my mother and mymother-in-law both came.
My mother and my mother stayedfor a week and then a couple
weeks later my mother-in-lawstayed for a month.
So we did have people in thehome who were very supportive.

(36:24):
But I think, just as a firsttime mom, I didn't really
exactly know what I needed.
And you know, even as a womanwho had worked in birth for four
years, you really I just didn'tknow.
Until I had my own experience Iwas thinking that maybe I would
want a lot more space.
But really what I needed wascommunity and I kind of needed

(36:45):
my friends to gather around meand to support me and I think I
just didn't advocate for myself.
So in some ways it was just sodreamy to have this new baby and
while things were really simple, in other ways it was pretty
lonely.

Angela (37:08):
Yeah, postpartum can be a lot of ups and downs for sure.
Yeah, so what paths did youtake with your birth work after
that?

Nikki (37:17):
Yeah, yeah, so I took a break from attending births in
person.
I don't.
I think I took about a sixmonth break, but I did already
have clients that I wassupporting, so I was still doing
prenatal appointments.
Like I mentioned earlier, Irebranded my business.

(37:39):
I rebranded my business so,yeah, actually immediately
postpartum, that was a big thingthat I was working on was doing
all of the things to rebrand mybusiness making logos, you know
, setting up all of the backendstuff.
I do all of that stuff myselfand this isn't my first business
, so I'm kind of getting prettygood at it at this point.

(38:02):
But it still requires a lot ofwork and now, looking back on
that, I probably should havetaken a beat and just let my
postpartum time be and work onthat stuff later, because I do
think it's more challenging andyou just think energetically.
You're just not really in.
Most women aren't in thatheadspace to be doing all of

(38:25):
this business creative stuff.
But I did it and in thatpostpartum time is when I
recorded the bulk of all of thevideos for my birth prep course.
So that's about 70 videos thatare five minutes to 45 minutes
in length.
So it was just very it took alot of time and thankfully, you

(38:47):
know, my mother-in-law was thereso she was able to kind of hang
out with my daughter while Iwas doing all of this business
stuff.
So it was a lot of hard work butit was very much a labor of
love and you know I'm so proudof what came out of that time a
labor of love, and you know I'mso proud of what came out of
that time.
And I think in a way it waskind of a good time to do it

(39:10):
because everything was so freshfor me.
I had just gone through my ownpregnancy.
I had just gone through my ownbirth.
Most of the births I hadattended up to that point were
home birth with a medicalmidwife, and then maybe you know
, I'd also attended hospitalbirths.
I had attended a couple birthsin a birth keeper sense where I
just kind of hung out and didn'treally do any of the medical

(39:33):
observation and just supported awoman in a very hands-off sense
.
But the bulk of my experiencehad been pretty medical.
So it was nice to have my owncompletely free birth experience
to complement my otherexperiences I had attending
births.

Angela (39:54):
You know, I have a side question.
You kind of just mentioned,like you did, a couple like as a
birth keeper, where you kind ofdidn't do anything medical and
the way you described it itsounded like a doula.

Nikki (40:05):
Yeah, it's funny, and a birth keeper is so it's funny
that you say that, because I wasthinking that, as I was, I
almost didn't want to say it.
But yeah, as a doula basically,and you know, I think I mean
we'll get more into this laterbut coming out of MMI, which is
the second Free Birth Societycourse that I took, coming out

(40:28):
of that I realized that doulaisn't a bad word.
I think we were kind of I'mgoing to use the word
brainwashed or conditioned.
I was at least, you know, I canonly speak for myself.
I was at least, you know, I canonly speak for myself.
I was conditioned by the freebirth society that doula is a
bad word, that you don't want tobe a doula, you don't want to

(40:48):
be a medical midwife, thosethings are bad and you want to
be this other thing.
So first they were using theterm birth keeper, which I think
is a fine word to use.
It's, you know, a woman who'sattending a birth, not doing
anything medical, like a doula,but in the absence of any

(41:09):
medical provider.
So typically a birth keeper isgoing to be there.
There's no midwife, there's nodoctor, she's not doing anything
medical, so she's acting as adoula, but typically a doula is
going to work in the presence ofa doctor or a midwife.
So I guess that's the bigdifference.
But for some reason, the wordbirthkeeper shifted, and Emily

(41:32):
and Yolanda and some of theseother free birth advocate or
educators, whatever you want tocall them For some reason the
term birth keeper shifted andnow they want to be midwives and
I think that kind of muddiesthe waters, because most people
are going to see a midwife as awoman who is coming to a birth

(41:54):
with medical skills and hands-onskills.
So these birth keepers, I reallydo think it's just a separate
thing and there's nothing wrongwith it.
There's nothing wrong withbeing a birth keeper, there's
nothing wrong with being a doula.
But I think it's very, veryimportant to be completely

(42:15):
transparent and honest with yourexperience level.
And of course, I do want togive Emily and Yolanda some
credit here.
They have always, as from thetrainings I've taken with them,
they are always encouragingwomen to be honest and to be
transparent.
I've never heard them encouragewomen to lie about their

(42:35):
experience, and they have spokento the importance of being
honest with your clients, intothe importance of being honest
with your clients.
But yeah, I'm just, I think,using the word midwife if you
don't have that sort of medicaltraining and hands-on skills, I
do think that can be verymisleading.

Angela (42:54):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Did you find out you werepregnant for the next time
before you started MMI, or wasit after?

Nikki (43:04):
It was after.
So I MMI the.
I heard about MMI.
I was maybe three months out, Iwas maybe three months
postpartum, so I still had anewborn.
And I am rebranding my business.
I had just separated from mymentor and I was still searching

(43:27):
for more knowledge and, like Isaid, I had a pretty extensive
hands-on medical apprenticeship.
I did do the Radical BirthKeepers School so I had a taste
of that outside of the systemmidwifery.
But yeah, I really wanted morethe system midwifery.
But yeah, I really wanted more.
And now in hindsight, I thinkwhat I was looking for was more

(43:48):
in line with what Wapio or maybeSister Morningstar offers and I
had enjoyed the RadicalBirthkeeper School.
I heard about MMI.
It basically sounded like itwas going to be similar to the
Radical Birthkeeper School butway more in depth.
And that's exactly what I waslooking for.
I was looking for moreknowledge from the outside of

(44:11):
the system perspective.
I wasn't really interested inany more medical knowledge.
So I mean, that's not what Iwas looking for at all.
And yeah, unfortunately that'snot what I was looking for at
all.
And yeah, unfortunately that'snot really what I received from
the program.

Angela (44:27):
Yeah, when did you start to notice that things were
lacking?

Nikki (44:31):
I think I was so excited in the beginning and it was also
a huge financial investment forme.
So I think it took a long timefor me to admit that things
weren't as good as I wanted themto be, because I didn't want to
admit that I had made a hugefinancial mistake that has

(44:54):
impacted my family.
My husband was actually the onewho pointed out early on like
he was kind of listening in thebackground of my calls, and I
think immediately he was likehis red, like alarm bells kind
of went off in his head, becausehe's listening to me on these
calls and I think I don't evenremember there was a call these

(45:19):
are three hour long calls, onealmost every week, and then once
a month we had a pod call.
These are three hour long calls, one almost every week, and
then once a month we had a podcall.
So, and then on top of that wehave all of the prerecorded
content.
So I'm on the computerlistening to this all day almost
.
So he would hear it in thebackground and it just didn't

(45:41):
seem right to him.
It seemed like a bunch of fluff.
So he would ask me are youreally getting your money's
worth out of this program.
What is the return oninvestment?
Because he's thinking my wife'snot really working very much,
he's mainly supporting ourhousehold financially, which he
is absolutely fine with, ourhousehold financially, which he

(46:07):
is absolutely fine with.
But for me to take out, youknow, a $9,000 investment in my
business, he wants to make surethere's going to be a return on
that investment.
Yeah, so anyways, to answeryour question, I was really
excited in the beginning.
I did notice that it was thesame exact things in the Radical
Birth Keeper School, because wegot the outline of the program

(46:29):
in the beginning and it waspretty much exactly the.
Still hoping that we're goingto go more in depth and my
biggest intention with startingthis program was to learn more

(46:52):
about the business side ofthings, which we kind of touched
on in RBK, but not enough, Ididn't think.

Angela (47:01):
So I'm just really hoping that I'm going to learn
more about the business side ofthings and yeah, and it sold
that aspect of it, but then it'slike it's the fourth quarter,
like they covered it a littlebit, I guess yeah, I really
didn't like how it was set upand in the radical birth keeper
school it was birth section.

Nikki (47:23):
It was kind of split up into three parts, so it was
birth, the self-mastery stuffand then the business stuff and
we were doing all of thosesimultaneously through the 12
weeks.
So I was kind of expecting thatin MMI.
So I'm thinking I'm going toget a year of business coaching,
but really that's not what wegot at all and I actually didn't

(47:46):
even get to that part it wasthe first quarter, I think when
Yolanda had hopped on and talkedabout a birth that she attended
in Nicaragua.

Angela (47:54):
that kind of freaked the whole cohort out a little bit.

Nikki (47:58):
Yeah, out of respect for, like, her privacy, I'm not
going to get into too manydetails but she hopped on to a
call.
So, like I mentioned, we havethese almost weekly calls and
she came into this call andwanted to kind of debrief a
birth that she had attended withus, which isn't abnormal.
That's a lot of what we weredoing in the program.

(48:21):
Sometimes students woulddebrief I debriefed a birth that
I attended Emily and Yolandawould frequently debrief births
that they were attending, so itwasn't out of the ordinary at
first, but she's basicallydebriefing a birth where
something went wrong and it hadclearly really rattled her mean.
She was very shaken up by thisbirth and I felt like she had

(48:47):
came on.
So most of the women in theprogram are either brand new
birth workers or they haven'teven started their careers in
birth work and I felt like shewas very inappropriate in the
way she was basically traumadumping and fear mongering into

(49:07):
the whole room.
Basically told women that ifthey were going to attend births
that they were probably goingto get arrested and go to jail.
That there's no way to attendbirths safely, there's no way to
attend births legally, which isabsolute, complete baloney.
I know women who have beenattending births for 50 years

(49:31):
that have never had any sort oflegal issues.
But the thing is they'refollowing the laws, they're
licensed, and listen, I don'tlike licensure, I really
disagree with licensure.
I am not a fan of NARM, I don'treally like any of that, but
that's kind of the way to do itwithout having issues.

(49:55):
There are rules that moststates and most countries have,
that most states and mostcountries have, and really, if
you follow them, you're probablynot going to run into any
serious issues.
So, yeah, I just oh, and thenthat that was kind of when the
program turned from a midwiferyprogram into now they're

(50:19):
encouraging us to just docoaching and to be mentors.
And listen, we're not.
I mean, it's crazy to charge$12,000 for a birth mentor
program.
So I felt like it wasabsolutely a bait and switch.
They portrayed the program asthis really, you know what did

(50:44):
they call it?
The the world's leadingsovereign midwifery program, and
that's just not what wasdelivered at all.
So, yeah, that Yolanda's freakout was a major red flag for me
and I spoke up in that class andI because I thought it was so
wrong what she was doing toscare all of these brand new

(51:06):
birth workers.
I mean, it was just I.
So I felt like it would havebeen more appropriate, for maybe
, if she took some time to likedeep, maybe debrief it with,
like one of her mentors, Ididn't.
I thought it was veryinappropriate for her to present

(51:27):
that situation to the classwhile it was so fresh and while
it was still going on.
I mean, while she waspresenting to it to us, there
were still certain aspects ofthe situation that were
unraveling for her.
So I thought maybe she shouldhave even taken the day off.
Yeah, it was just veryinappropriate.
I thought so yeah, maybe thatwas in the first quarter and

(51:48):
then the second quarter comesaround, which is the birth
quarter, and it was very, verymuch lacking.
I was very disappointed by theprogram and what they were
presenting.
But again, I was still notwanting to admit that I had made

(52:08):
this huge financial mistake andI was just trying to get
whatever I could out of it andwas trying to be positive and
whatever.
And it wasn't until I startedspeaking to other women who were
in the program and I probablyspoke with maybe about 15 women

(52:31):
because I was, again, I'm tryingto get the most out of this
program.
So I was doing a lot of one onones with other women who are in
the program program.
I'm doing a lot of meetings,I'm messaging women and I was
starting to realize I'm not theonly one who's thinking this is

(52:52):
lacking.
And yeah, it seemed like almosthalf of the women who were in
the program were at least alittle bit disappointed by the
content thus far at least alittle bit disappointed by the
content thus far and a lot ofwomen were wanting more.

Angela (53:16):
So, as far as the content went, having had taken
RBK and also, which included thecomplete guide to free birth,
how would you say this comparedto the information in there,
would you almost like?

Nikki (53:21):
my opinion was that it was less information than in the
complete guide, not only was itless information, it was longer
videos, but it was just a lotof ranting and rambling, like
there was no cohesive flow tothe videos.
It just seemed like, especiallyYolanda's videos was her

(53:45):
talking around in circles arounda topic and never really making
any clear or concise points.
And I don't know if she thought, if she made a 45 minute long
video, that it would make up forthe lack of legit information.
I don't know what the deal wasthere, but the videos also

(54:05):
seemed like they were veryrushed and it was clear that
they were making and releasingthe videos as we were going
through the program, which isvery strange.
That's not typically how youwould run a program like this.
Typically you would have all ofthe content outlined, you would
do all of that work before weeven started, but it felt very,

(54:28):
very rushed and extremelyunprofessional.
I mean, I've taken a lot oftrainings.
I've taken a lot of trainingswhen it comes to birth, like
university courses.
You know I went through a wholenursing program, so I've done a
lot of different types ofcourses and I've never

(54:49):
experienced one as messy andunprofessional as this one.
Seriously, and like I said, Ireally enjoyed the Radical Birth
Keeper School I felt like theRadical Birth Keeper School.
Those videos were polished andprofessional and they were
pretty much to the point.
But this was yeah, just itwasn't what they promised.

Angela (55:12):
Yeah, that's exactly how I feel.
So did your views on birth as awhole start to shift at all
throughout the program as thingsespecially started to unfold
like just leading up to when youdecided to remove yourself from
the program?

Nikki (55:29):
So I think while I was in the program my views on birth
were pretty extreme.
I think that started in myfirst pregnancy, towards the end
of my first pregnancy, and thenI think I once I had this free
birth where things went prettywell.
I mean my birth was prettysimple and straightforward.

(55:49):
You know we talked about thecomplication with the placenta,
but other than that, I mean mybirth was totally simple and
straightforward.
So I think that kind of provedmy point that things only go
wrong because midwives arecoming in and sabotaging birth.
And then of course, that beliefwas reinforced from what we

(56:14):
were learning in this program.
So I think, especially in thebeginning of the program, my
views of outside of the systembirth were very extreme.
And while I was in the program Istarted attending births again
and I had actually attended acouple of home births one with a
midwife and one with just mepresent where things didn't go

(56:38):
quite right.
Both of those births turnedinto hospital transfers and yeah
, that was very confusing for me.
The first one I blamed on themidwife.
I said she just wasn't patientenough, she just didn't want to
wait.
Maybe she was scared, maybe itwas because of her licensure she

(56:59):
didn't want to get in troublewhatever.
And that birth actually endedup in a surgical birth because
the baby was breached and thehospital wasn't willing to do a
vaginal breach delivery,especially on a first time mom.
So that was very confusing forme and I was kind of going back

(57:19):
and forth on you know what, ifit was just me there, would she
have had this awesome home birthor would something bad have
happened to her or the baby?
So I was kind of that was veryconfronting for me.
I'm trying to figure out and ofcourse there's really no way to
know.
But that was when I started toquestion okay, is, is medical

(57:42):
intervention sometimes necessary?
And then the next birth Iattended was just me present and
she was in labor for like fourdays and eventually she decided
to transfer to the hospital andhonestly I was relieved because

(58:06):
I was starting to get nervoustoo.
But I'm being told in thisprogram that women only transfer
if they have bad support,basically.
And I actually debriefed thatbirth with the class during one
of our live classes and I leftthat class feeling like crap.

(58:30):
I yeah, I don't.
I mean I'm not sure if this washer intention, but Emily
basically made me feel like Iwas a bad birth worker and that
you know, there's really noreason to transfer unless it's a
blatant emergency or unless awoman just has inadequate birth

(58:54):
support.
So yeah, I was almost furtherconfused and I was really
questioning myself as a birthattendant confused and I was
really questioning myself as abirth attendant.

Angela (59:06):
Yeah, I remember that call and I remember feeling very
sad for you as she wasbasically tearing you apart.
Like I was like, oh no, likeyou know, because like where I
was coming from, I wasn't likefully also, like you know,
ingrained in like free birth orbust I guess.
So I could see, I guess, thenuance in it and I was just,
yeah, that was, that was hard tosee her treat you that way in

(59:29):
that call.

Nikki (59:30):
Also, I want to just insert here that we were also
being told that it was normalfor women to be in labor for
four or five days.
So up to this point, right, I'mattending births with a medical
midwife and typically, yeah,there'd be a transfer before

(59:53):
that point.
So this is kind of a new thingfor me.
Oh right, okay, so it can benormal for a woman to be in
labor for that long.
So on one hand, I was reallytrying to support this woman,
but on the other hand, I stillhave it in the back of my head.
This isn't normal.
There is something preventingher from birthing her baby, and

(01:00:17):
so I was very conflicted becauseup to that point I felt like
longer births there wassomething wrong.
And there is something that'syou know, and it could be a
number of things.
It could be her physiology, itcould be something with the baby
, that's kind of holding thebaby up.
It could be somethinghormonally.
Maybe she can't get comfortable.

(01:00:38):
I mean, there are so manyreasons that cause these longer
births and I don't think it'snormal, and I think a skilled
birth worker can help women tonot be in labor for four days.
But it was kind of beingpresented to us, as this is just
in the range of normal and youjust need to be down with being

(01:01:02):
in a woman's home for a week,yeah.
So it was confusing to me.
I felt like, oh, maybe I'm justnot as knowledgeable as I
thought I was.
I just don't have theexperience that I thought I did.
I was very much gaslightingmyself and then, after months of
debriefing this birth, aftermonths of mulling it over in my

(01:01:24):
head, I just couldn't let thisbirth go.
I needed to figure it out andafter really analyzing it, I've
came back to what I originallythought to be true, which is
it's not really normal to be inbirth for that long.
No woman wants to be in laborfor five days.
It's ridiculous to expect birthattendants to be in a woman's

(01:01:50):
home for that long and to justmove in and live with her, which
is basically what we were beingencouraged to do.
You just you know, if you'renot down to move in with a woman
for two weeks, then you can'tdo this work and I just think
that's absolutely ridiculous.
And thankfully I've come backto reality to recognize that.

(01:02:16):
And it can be for acomplication or an emergency,
but it can also just be becausea birth is taking a really long
time and a woman is exhausted orshe wants pain relief.
Whatever reason a woman choosesto transfer is valid, and it's

(01:02:38):
really not any of my business tojudge her.

Angela (01:02:43):
Exactly, and I feel like that is something that is kind
of promoted within thecommunities and the courses is
not not directly, but in theirpersuasive ways.
It's like you know, oh well,they couldn't do it.
You know there must besomething wrong.
How did they co-create that?
When, like sometimes maybethings just happen and like that
is what it is, yeah, that when,like, sometimes maybe things

(01:03:03):
just happen and like that iswhat it is, yeah, and just the
the shaming of people, like ifthey don't, it's like I just
feel like that was really notokay well, it's interesting too,
because there's this blatanthypocrisy where they say that
you don't judge a woman andthere's no hierarchy of birth
and oh, you're supposed torespect every woman's autonomy

(01:03:26):
and her freedom to choose.

Nikki (01:03:29):
But then there's this very strong undertone that if
you don't successfully freebirth and if you even have a
birth attendant there, you havesomehow failed.
And it was such this weird mindgame because they kept saying,
oh, sovereign birth is sovereignbirth.
It's okay to have a midwife ora birth keeper or birth

(01:03:54):
attendants there, but if you do,you're outsourcing your
responsibility, yourresponsibility.
So they're saying it's okay.
But there's also this verystrong undertone that if you
don't birth completely alone,you're not enlightened and if
you don't get that, then youjust it like they would almost

(01:04:15):
make us feel like we were dumbif we didn't get it.
So it's just so much hypocrisyand weird mind games that were
being played on us that I didn'tfully unravel until I had
exited the program.
And intentional, but they areteaching some weird stuff.

(01:04:37):
Yeah, it's just really weirdand this is why so many people
have accused them of running acult, and I think that language
is pretty strong, but there'sdefinitely some culty stuff

(01:04:59):
going on there.

Angela (01:05:01):
Yeah, yeah, totally, I guess, to back it up a little
bit, would you tell me aboutwhen you found out you were
pregnant for the second time andyeah, like what your thoughts
were and like yeah, all that.

Nikki (01:05:14):
So that's pretty interesting.
I didn't actually accept that Iwas pregnant until around
Christmas.
I actually took a pregnancytest on Christmas Eve and it was
positive.
But it's such a long story.
But basically I had alreadybeen pregnant for three months

(01:05:36):
but was kind of gaslightingmyself into believing that I
wasn't pregnant even though Ihad taken a previous positive
pregnancy test.
And I convinced believing thatI wasn't pregnant even though I
had taken a previous positivepregnancy test and I convinced
myself that I had miscarried.
And it was just a weird andconfusing time.
I was very disconnected from mybody In the background of

(01:05:57):
everything.
I'm in MMI and that isconsuming my life because we're
on these three hour long calls.
I'm glued to my computer.
Again, it was a huge financialinvestment, so I'm trying to
really get my money's worth andit was just, yeah, really
consuming my life and I.

(01:06:18):
It was a time in my life whereI just really needed to go touch
some grass and come back toreality and enjoy my life and
get off of the computer.
So, yeah, it was just like aweird, a very weird time.
So, yeah, I had been pregnantfor basically the whole program
but hadn't really accepted thatuntil Christmas.

(01:06:47):
Until Christmas, and then Ithink I it gets confusing with
the, with the numbers, but I hadthought I was six weeks and I
could feel kicking, could feelmovement inside, which is not
really possible that early, andI could also feel it from the
outside, which is absolutely.
I know, every woman isdifferent, every baby's

(01:07:08):
different, everyone's body isdifferent.
It's just impossible.
The baby doesn't even have legsyet.
You know what I mean.
You're not feeling movementfrom the outside.
So that was my first clue that Iwas further along than I
thought I did.
So I had three possibleconception dates, so I just kind
of bumped it up to the middleone.
And then, yeah, after someother assessments, I actually

(01:07:31):
had listened with a Doppler,which of course we're being
taught in MMI that the Doppleris the devil and it's going to
kill your baby.
So I listened with the Dopplerto because I would have been 10
weeks along at that point andit's possible to hear with the

(01:07:52):
Doppler at 10 weeks, but it'sgoing to usually take a little
bit to find the heartbeat andit's also going to be very low,
like right above the pubic bone,and I had a feeling I'd find it
around my navel.
So that was my test to see how,if I was further along, so that

(01:08:17):
and my measurements,consistently I was measuring
bigger than I would have been.
I kind of used some of thoseassessments to determine my real
conception date.

Angela (01:08:33):
So what were you thinking then at that point?

Nikki (01:08:36):
So my first due date was the end of August, and then it
moved up to the beginning ofJuly and then it moved up to the
end of May.
So it was, yeah, to be threemonths off is crazy, but also to

(01:08:57):
not know you're pregnant orjust to be blatantly denying
that you're pregnant for threemonths, that that was actually
really hard for me.
I I felt like really bad abouthow disconnected I was from my
body.
I felt really sad about missingthe entire first trimester of

(01:09:18):
my pregnancy.
Yeah, I mean, I, I really I tryto be very connected with my
body and very in tune.
And now I can kind of see thatit was because I was so obsessed
with this program that I wasn'treally able to to live in my

(01:09:39):
body and be in the moment, andthat, you know, of course, is my
responsibility.
So I'm not blaming that on anyprogram or anyone else, but but
yeah, it was really.
It was really kind of likedisappointing and sad that I had
missed so much of my pregnancy,especially as someone who loves
pregnancy so much.

(01:10:00):
It was kind of a bummer, but um, but yeah, I mean it is what it
is so how are you feeling then?

Angela (01:10:08):
like after that, like into the new year, as things
progressed?

Nikki (01:10:12):
I had another pretty straightforward pregnancy.
I had a lot of anxiety in thispregnancy.
I death in stillbirth andmiscarriage was an overarching
theme that just kept coming upover and over again and so we we
talked about it in mmi.

(01:10:34):
But I had also taken a trainingon supporting women through
loss and I had also made it oneof my personal missions to
support women through loss andto kind of shed light on it, and
at first it didn't bother me.
But as I progressed through mypregnancy there were a lot of
women in the Lighthousemembership.

(01:10:56):
I was also in the Free BirthSociety membership.
There were a lot of women whowere experiencing loss.
There were a lot of women whowere experiencing loss.

(01:11:20):
So it felt like every time Ilogged in to Mighty Networks,
into that the membership, itfelt like every time I logged on
there was someone talking abouthow they lost their baby.
So you know, and also it wasbeing very much normalized in
the program.
Yeah, I don't, I.
So in my own experienceattending births I had only ever
experienced one baby who hadpassed, and that baby had passed

(01:11:44):
a couple of days after theywere born.
So to me it's not normal, likestillbirth isn't normal.
I know it happens and I knowsometimes it can't be prevented,
but that I don't think it'sthat common.
But for some reason in thisprogram they were presenting it
as something.
It was weird.
They're using this weirdlanguage like, well, it's not

(01:12:06):
common, but it's not uncommon.
Okay, what does that mean Ifit's?
You know those are twoopposites.
If it's not uncommon, then it'scommon.
So that was kind of weird.

(01:12:39):
But I felt like some of now,upon further reflection, I think
some of those losses probablycould have been prevented if
there was some sort ofassessment prenatally or if
there was a skilled birthprofessional present during the
birth.
So I still stand by that everywoman has the right to decide
what kind of birth they want tohave, where they want to birth
and who they want present attheir birth.
So I don't want to blame anyfamilies for what they choose.
It's always a horrible thingwhen a baby passes, no matter

(01:13:00):
how it happens, and I don'tthink we should be blaming
families who are mourning andgrieving.
But I think maybe in the freebirth society sphere I think
they were normalizing it alittle too much.

Angela (01:13:15):
Um, and so it's also have that nuance in the mindset
of like free birth or bust,because yeah, like a lot of you
know, it was a lot of persuasionto like be free birth or bust
or very bad things will happento you if you go into the
medical system at any point forany reason and well, a lot of
yeah.

Nikki (01:13:34):
So there's that fear-mongering of if you go to
the hospital they're going toassault you, which is true
sometimes, but I've also I knowwomen and I have attended births
who actually had positiveexperiences in the hospital.
Do I think I would have apositive experience in the
hospital?

(01:13:54):
No, because of who I am as aperson, I'm very adverse to the
medical system.
I just very adverse to themedical system.
I wouldn't go unless it was anabsolute emergency.
But some women are looking forthose services and it really is
a shame because even the woman Iattended who ended up

(01:14:14):
transferring, she felt anincredible amount of guilt and
shame and she didn't even wantto share her birth story and
still, almost a year later, sheis still having a hard time
navigating that and I think it'smainly because of that home
birther bust mentality.
She definitely didn't have thatmentality the whole time

(01:14:37):
through her pregnancy.
She always told me that shewould rather go to the hospital
than have something and thatfree birth or bust mentality is
very prevalent in the communityand it made it so she doesn't
really feel safe sharing herbirth story with any of those

(01:14:57):
women and I think that's so sad.
Yeah, yeah, it really startedto mess with my mind Like, is

(01:15:19):
this a sign?
And I mean I can talk about itnow because I mean, as you can
see, I'm holding my son and he'sperfectly healthy.
But I there were times in mypregnancy where I was absolutely
convinced that I was going tohave a stillbirth and it was.

(01:15:40):
It was.
It was really painful andchallenging in it.
It was, yeah, it brought up anoverwhelming amount of anxiety.
I was constantly questioning,questioning myself Am I doing
something wrong?
You know, like, should I bedoing something?
Like?
Yeah, it was really difficultand thankfully I did seek out.

(01:16:06):
You know, I'm doing my ownassessments as someone who's
completed a midwifery training,doing my own assessments as
someone who's completed amidwifery training.
But I eventually went and sawthis was actually after I had
left MMI.
I saw out a midwife in mycommunity who I had attended
births with and who I trustedand who I knew was free birth,

(01:16:26):
friendly, and I went in for aprenatal appointment with her
and she was just able to reflectback to me kind of what I knew
from doing my own assessments.
But it was just reallycomforting to get a second
opinion and I think if I wouldhave stayed in the program and

(01:16:47):
stayed in with thatindoctrination of, you know,
free birth and wild pregnancy.
I think I might not have donethat, you know.
So it was nice to be able to toaccept help.

Angela (01:17:02):
Yeah, definitely Did you birth after you left the
program.
Then you okay, so yeah.

Nikki (01:17:09):
I had been out of the program for several months at
that point, as these storieslike overlap each other a little
bit.

Angela (01:17:19):
what was the final thing that kind of made you want to
leave the program?

Nikki (01:17:23):
Yeah, I think it was a lot of things, a lot of things.
There was one woman who waskicked out of the program who
was actually in my RBK cohortand she wanted to stay in the
program and she was removed forspeaking her mind.

(01:17:45):
What she said wasn't even thatbad.
I mean.
I was appalled that she waskicked out of the program and
she wasn't the only one.
There were a lot of women whowere kicked out of the program.
But I think her storyspecifically was really
troubling to me because she hadreally didn't do anything wrong

(01:18:09):
at all and she was so upset andreally wanted to stay in the
program.
So just seeing how Emily andYolanda were treating women who
had paid them thousands ofdollars.

Angela (01:18:21):
Like tens of thousands of dollars in her case.

Nikki (01:18:24):
I know yeah in her case, she had gone to the festival,
she did RBK, she did MMI, so shewas all in right.
So you would assume that theywould kind of trust her
character, that she you knowshe's invested so much into

(01:18:44):
their programs and their coursesso it just seemed really out of
pocket for them to just boother like that, without any
explanation, without anyconversation.
So there was that watchingwomen.
I mean, I'm a free speechabsolutist.
I understand that it's theirprogram and they should have a
certain amount of guidelines in,you know, like a code of

(01:19:08):
conduct.
I'm not opposed to that, but itseemed like women were being
punished for speaking their mindand for asking reasonable
questions.
So there was that.
But even up to that point Istill wanted to stay in the
program because I didn't want tocompletely lose out on my
investment.
Because I didn't want tocompletely lose out on my

(01:19:30):
investment, I knew that a refundwas probably out of the
question, so I just wanted tosee if there was anything more I
could get out of the program.
What really put the final nailin the coffin was the last two
live classes that I attended.

(01:19:56):
Live classes this that Iattended, there was one where
yolanda addressed the redditdrama and just the way she spoke
about it I felt was verystrange.
She um, yeah, she compared herthe situation to thecible, which
, if listeners don't know, isabout the Salem witch trials,

(01:20:18):
and yeah, she was verydismissive of anyone who was
asking questions.
It's all drama, don't even payattention to it, it just seemed.
Her reaction to it seemed very,very sketchy to me.
So that kind of raised some redflags.
She wasn't acting like aninnocent person, but still I'm

(01:20:41):
like on the fence, still notsure if I was going to leave,
was going to leave, and thenthere was the final call that I
attended, which was presented.
I'm trying to remember theexact language that they used.
I think it was a time to joinour hearts in connection,

(01:21:03):
something like that.
That's what the call wasdescribed as.
So it was an extra call wherewe were allegedly supposed to be
able to present some questionsand kind of like recalibrate
into the program after somedrama, some people getting
kicked out and all of that.

Angela (01:21:21):
Well, also, four of the mentors had left.
They had mentors that were in,you know, guiding these pod
calls.
There were just smaller groupsof women in the program and you
yeah, four of them left as allof the red thing was starting
that's.

Nikki (01:21:35):
That's an important piece .
So not only were students beingkicked out and willingly
leaving, because in it's notjust because of, you know, the
reddit drama we don't even needto get into that.
People were leaving becausethey were so disappointed about

(01:21:56):
the course content and they wereso disgusted by Emily and
Yolanda's conduct in the liveclasses and how condescending
and rude they were being towomen.
This is why people were leaving.
It had nothing to do with anygossip or drama.
It was specifically because ofEmily and Yolanda's conduct and

(01:22:17):
because of how much the coursewas lacking.
It almost wasn't even worthstaying in.
So in that call, the call startsout with Emily making legal
threats to the entire Zoom roombecause people were recording

(01:22:39):
the live classes and they wereposting it on Reddit, sharing it
privately, which is anotherthing that was very disturbing
to me.
I was very disappointed thatother women in the program who I
guess naively thought would beable to honor the privacy of

(01:23:03):
this space and to respect otherwomen's privacy and the
sensitive things that we'resharing, I was very disturbed
that those very privateconversations were being shared.
So that was very disappointingto me and that was actually
another reason why I no longerreally felt comfortable engaging

(01:23:28):
candidly in the program,because there were obviously
women in the program who werenot acting in good faith and who
were sharing privateconversations on Reddit and
everywhere else.
So that was another thing thatwas disturbing to me, and of
course that's not Emily andYolanda's fault.
That is just other women kindof being bad actors in my

(01:23:51):
opinion.
I don't want to assume theirintentions Perhaps they didn't
have bad intentions but I stilldon't think it was respectful of
other people's privacy.

Angela (01:24:04):
That was a turning point for me at least.
At that point I was like thisis such an unsecure space.
Anything you say in here couldend up with reporters from the
New York Times, the Guardian,like who knows who else is.
Like there's other womensharing these conversations with
who knows who, and that wasvery disturbing for me.

Nikki (01:24:21):
Yeah, and you know I'm typically a very private person,
but if I feel safe to do sosafe to do so I will open up to
people.
And I felt very safe in themembership, in the courses I had
taken with Free Birth Society.
I felt very safe sharing withEmily and Yolanda and pretty

(01:24:43):
much any other woman who was inthat space.
And it felt very violating.
I don't think anything I reallysaid was shared publicly maybe
a few things, but yeah, it justfelt very violating.
I don't think anything I reallysaid was shared publicly maybe
a few things, but yeah, it justfelt very violating to know that
those sensitive conversationswere being shared.
So basically, that was thereason why Emily was making

(01:25:06):
legal threats to the whole room.
Basically, if you're sharingstuff and we find out you're
screen recording andscreenshotting, I have a whole
legal team and I will attack youand all this stuff.
So felt like a weird way tostart off a call that was
described as a way to join ourhearts in connection.
That was kind of bizarre, butwhatever.

(01:25:26):
So I'm still listening and Iasked a question.
It's not really appropriate forme to share what my question
was about, but I shared aquestion in good faith.
I wasn't um, I wasn't trying toask it in any certain type of
way, it was just an honest, open.

(01:25:48):
It was just an honest, open,genuine question that I was

(01:26:21):
askinglit and the way I wasspoken to, the tone in the words
that were used by Emily as shewas speaking to me felt very
demeaning.
She was absolutely speakingdown to me.
It felt very rude and I wasblown away.

(01:26:41):
I was completely shocked andthat was the point where I knew
that I could no longer engagewith these people anymore.

Angela (01:26:54):
Okay, so you broke free and you're.
We don't know exactly how faralong.
Do you estimate you werepregnant at this point?
Like roughly?

Nikki (01:27:03):
I don't even remember.
I was probably, we'll say abouthalfway through my pregnancy.

Angela (01:27:09):
How was like the rest of your pregnancy after you left
the program?

Nikki (01:27:13):
Overwhelming.
I had a lot to unravel, but I'malso very grateful that I left
the program because it gave methat space to unravel all of the
conditioning and to kind ofcome back to my own homeostasis
and determine what do I actuallybelieve in, what do I know to

(01:27:36):
be true, given my experience inbirth, in giving all of my
studies with all of thetrainings I had done so I didn't
necessarily discredit all ofthe things that I had learned I
will say that I learned so muchfrom Emily and Yolanda.

(01:27:56):
I think the radical birthkeeperschool was a much more positive
experience.
I think they were a little bitmore sane at that point.
I think they both really wentoff the rails by the time we
enrolled in MMI.
I think they are both veryextreme in their beliefs now,

(01:28:18):
but still, even in MMI therewere valuable conversations.
So basically, I took theentirety of all of my knowledge
and all of my experience and Icame back to what I know to be
true and I think that wasextremely important for me to do
to finish out my pregnancy andto enter the birth portal again.
So yeah, I had space to do that.

(01:28:41):
It was wonderful to be able toget off of the computer.
I probably didn't touch mycomputer for the whole rest of
my pregnancy, unless, unless itwas, you know, things I needed
to do for business.
But yeah, I even took a stepback from my business and only,
um, I really cut back on what Iwas doing.
Now I am only doing a weeklynewsletter and a monthly free

(01:29:07):
resource.
I moderate some other groups.
But yeah, I kind of came backinto my in-person existence and
got much more.
Yeah, just really took a stepback from the technology aspect
of my business and my life andit was really refreshing.

Angela (01:29:30):
What were the final, like weeks and then days leading
up to when your labor startedlooking like.

Nikki (01:29:36):
It was still.
I was still very anxious.
I was very, very anxiousbecause of all of the

(01:29:59):
stillbirths that were happeningin the membership.
I was afraid that I was goingto basically turn into a
statistic of women trying toenjoy my time with my older
toddler as you know, my last fewweeks with her as an only child
and just enjoy my husband andenjoy my life, and I think for

(01:30:24):
the most part, I was enjoying mypregnancy.
You know, I still felt good.
Physically, I felt really good,but it was kind of like that
lingering fear in the back of myhead and, yeah, it was just a
weird time because I didn't feelthat way in my first pregnancy.
I was so confident in my firstpregnancy and I just knew that

(01:30:46):
everything was going to beperfect and it was, and I just
trusted myself and my body and,um, yeah, so it was definitely a
challenge and I think I thinkthese I'm grateful that these
things presented themselves forme because I learned a lot.
It really humbled me and thisexperience really, I think made

(01:31:11):
me a better birth worker andmade me, yeah, just really
humbled me.
But as I entered the birthprocess this next time, it kind
of all came back and I justtrusted my body, I let it unfold
.
This birth was very, very quick.

(01:31:32):
It was only three hours.
It started kind of similarly tothe first birth, where it
started out as kind of somecramping, some weaker sensations
, and so that started.
At 5.30 in the morning, rightwhen I woke up, my older
daughter woke me up and then Istarted feeling sensations.

(01:31:53):
My husband was already awake soI didn't even tell him I was in
labor yet, but he offered totake her so I could get some
more sleep.
And I did not get any moresleep because it very quickly
progressed into very intensecontractions, very quickly
progressed into very intensecontractions and, yeah, within
three hours he was born.

(01:32:17):
It was, yeah, it was verysimilar to the first birth,
where I was kind of just runningaround trying any position,
doing anything I could to getcomfortable, not really able to
do so, and it was a littledifferent.
So in my first birth I had thefull fetal ejection reflex where

(01:32:45):
I didn't even push, I just letit happen and she just came out.
And this birth I had a moment, Imean, I was screaming.
It was so intense, it was sopainful, so I'm up there
screaming.
And then I had a moment where Ithought to kind of go inwards

(01:33:05):
and to be more quiet and to kindof conserve my energy and I
squatted down and then I gotthis overwhelming urge to push
and I actively pushed him outand it was maybe three pushes,
maybe more than that, maybe likefive.
And then he was born and he wasI.

(01:33:26):
I caught him and he was pinkand screaming and he was
perfectly healthy and I think Iduring the birth process I had
forgotten my fears, but just anoverwhelming sense of relief as
I saw him and he was justclearly so healthy and so

(01:33:50):
perfect.
And he was just clearly sohealthy and so perfect and he
was thriving and I just keptthanking God over and over and
over again.
I was just so insanely gratefulto have a healthy baby.
God everyday sense and it hasreally brought this new sense of

(01:34:17):
gratitude for the health of myfamily into my life.
You know I've always beengrateful, but it was kind of on
a new level just because I hadall of those overwhelming
thoughts in my pregnancy.

Angela (01:34:27):
But yeah, did his head come out with one contraction
and then his body with the next.
It wasn't all just in one.

Nikki (01:34:34):
I think I'm not even sure if I waited for the next
contraction.
I think it was just so intenseand I don't even know what was
happening.
I was just ready for him to beborn.
It's just so intense and sopainful that I think in the
moment I just didn't even careand was just once I realized

(01:34:55):
that he was in the birth canaland that he was coming.
I just kept pushing, I think.
I think I just was really readyto be done.

Angela (01:35:04):
Yeah, oh my goodness.

Nikki (01:35:05):
So how did your placenta come this time placenta come
this time Actually easier, I soafter he was born I called to my
husband.
He came up, so unfortunately hewasn't present for either of
their emergencies.
But he came up and I noticedpretty quickly that I was

(01:35:25):
bleeding a lot more than I wasin my previous birth and it
didn't really concern me atfirst, but I was.
I was nervous about theplacenta so I was kind of afraid
to give it any sort ofmeaningful traction or pull.
But I did notice that I wasbleeding a lot so I did take
some herbs to to try to to helpme birth the placenta and to

(01:35:51):
kind of, you know, take care ofsome of the bleeding.
I was definitely concerned atthat point and I actually made
the decision to call thatmidwife that had helped me in my
previous postpartum time andshe was on.
I don't even think she knew mydue date.
She had no clue that I was inlabor.
She was on her way to prenatalappointments and she dropped

(01:36:17):
everything she was doing,canceled her appointments to
come immediately to my house tohelp me.
And again, I mean this woman.
You know we've had our ups anddowns in our relationship, but
the times I needed her most shewas there for me and I'm just so
incredibly grateful for that.
So she came.

(01:36:38):
At this point before she came, Icalled her.
The placenta still hadn't comeand I was still bleeding a lot.
After I got off the phone withher, the placenta came maybe 10
or 15 minutes later and that wasa huge relief just to have that
done, and I think the bleedingwas still pretty significant but

(01:37:00):
it had slowed down quite a bit.
I don't know if that's becausethe placenta came out or because
I had taken those herbs, but atthat point I was feeling pretty
lethargic and prettylightheaded and she was able to
come and help me.
So that was great.

Angela (01:37:15):
Yeah, having that support if you need it and not
feeling shameful if you have toask for it is so huge yeah.

Nikki (01:37:22):
And I also want to say you know I'm very confident in
my ability to birth my babies.
Like I said, it's very much asolo mission for me, so I don't
really need too much support inthat time.
I also birth my babies veryquick, so there's not a whole
lot of time for any sort ofsupport.
I think maybe if I had longerbirths, maybe eventually I would

(01:37:45):
want some help.
But I really didn't anticipatethat my husband would obviously
need to be caring for our olderdaughter.
I knew that wouldn't be aproblem during the birth.
I knew it would be great forhim to just go off do his thing
and take care of our olderdaughter.

(01:38:05):
But after the baby came, I needhelp, just even logistically
help with him, help to get me tothe bed, help with birthing,
the placenta.
I need him to go fetch methings.
You know I'm going to needwater, I'm going to need food,
there's cutting the cord,there's so many things going on

(01:38:28):
and I didn't really anticipatehow challenging that would be
for my husband.
It was just impossible.
He can't take care of ourdaughter and take care of me and
clean up and do all of thethings.
So that was something I reallydidn't anticipate.
So that was another reason whyit was so nice to have this
woman come, because she cleanedup, she put the placenta in the

(01:38:50):
freezer.
There are just so many thingsthat she helped that also.
It's just nice to have aseasoned birth professional
there.
You know, my husband doesn'tknow all of the things that need
to happen.
This woman has attendedhundreds of births.
So she just came into my homecleaned up, like she just knew
exactly what to do to help inthat moment, and I think that

(01:39:13):
was a huge help as well.

Angela (01:39:16):
Yeah, oh, that's awesome .
So how like you're obviouslystill postpartum, but how was
your like immediate postpartumand the last few months?

Nikki (01:39:25):
A lot harder.
I felt really really good withmy postpartum.
With my first postpartum I feltlike I had this whole hormonal
reset.
I felt like immediately I hadso much energy.
I felt really strong In mysecond postpartum, I think
because I had lost so much bloodand so I had gotten pregnant

(01:39:47):
three months postpartum so I hadno time to replace my nutrient
stores.
I was breastfeeding my wholepregnancy and my whole
postpartum.
Still I'm breastfeeding twobabies now.
So I felt very depleted, I felttired and I really felt called

(01:40:12):
to rest and I I fully understoodhow important rest was in this
postpartum time.
And I, um I you know I had onedear friend who came every day
for the first five days of mypostpartum and she would come in

(01:40:34):
, she would do the dishes, shewould bring me water, she would
bring me food, she would take myolder daughter outside just to
get her out of the house, andhaving her support in those
first few days was just sohelpful.
And then, after my mom came andstayed for a week and a half

(01:40:56):
and she was able to support meand just stay with us.
So, and then my mother-in-lawcame, maybe a week after that
and she stayed for a week.
So in some ways it was verysimilar to my first postpartum
and in some ways we had support,but it still wasn't enough.

(01:41:19):
So again, I felt really lonely.
I felt let down by some of myfriends.
You know, in some ways I havehad visits from some of my
friends and they've brought memeals and they've celebrated
with me and they've held spacefor me.
But, yeah, two of my longtimebest friends.

(01:41:41):
We've been best friends sincewe were 12.
Both of those women I'm twomonths out and both of those
women have yet to come to visitme.
They haven't really checked invery much and I've felt very let
down and disappointed by thatand it's really and you know

(01:42:02):
they aren't the only ones, butit's really made me question
who's here to support me in allphases of my life and who isn't?

Angela (01:42:13):
just to put it simply, have your views shifted on birth
now, after all of theexperiences that you've gone
through now would you saythey've changed at all.

Nikki (01:42:26):
Yeah, absolutely, I feel so much more open-minded.
Absolutely, I feel so much moreopen-minded.
It's interesting because I feellike I'm back where I was.
Well, no, not even I was goingto say that I'm back where I was
a couple years ago, but I'm not.
But I am.
I was more open-minded hospitaland I can you know the hospital

(01:42:53):
isn't for me and it's nottypically where I choose to
support women.
Usually I support women at home.
But my sister that is the placefor her and she is very type A.
She wanted all of themonitoring is very type A.

(01:43:16):
She wanted all of themonitoring.
She opted for the epidural andthat was just what worked for
her and I was able to supporther in that.
I think it was really so.
She had her baby a month beforemy son was born.
So I was pregnant her wholepregnancy.
We kind of like walked thatjourney together but we took two
completely separate paths and Ithink at first that was very

(01:43:37):
hard for me to hold and it wasvery difficult for me to respect
her choices because I kind ofam a know-it-all and I felt like
I'm doing things the perfectway.
But after witnessing her birthand supporting her through that,
I was able to fully recognizethat that is the place where she

(01:44:01):
feels more comfortable.
And, yeah, I was finally ableto come to a place where I
completely respect her as awoman and as a mother, and I
completely respect her as awoman and as a mother and I
completely respect her decisions.
And that's another thing thatI'm very grateful for, because
it didn't feel good to bejudging both of my sisters'
birth their babies in thehospital and I attended both of

(01:44:23):
those births and it doesn't feelgood to be judging your sisters
and to be judging other women,to be judging your sisters and
to be judging other women, and Idon't I'm not better than
anyone else.
So it felt really nice to cometo this point where I just
completely respect them and wedon't do things the same.

(01:44:43):
That's fine and it's.
You know, it's really none ofmy business how they want to
birth their babies and how theywant to raise their children.
And, yeah, it feels good.

Angela (01:44:55):
Yeah, it's kind of brings it right back to the
whole point.
I feel like why I'm doing allof these episodes, and it's to
highlight that the idea of freebirth is an amazing, beautiful
idea that definitely works for alot of women beautiful idea
that definitely works for a lotof women.
But it doesn't become a goodthing when it shifts into an

(01:45:16):
ideology where it's likeeveryone should free birth.

Nikki (01:45:17):
Yeah yeah, it can become very dogmatic and I don't think
everyone should free birth.
Thinking about my sister'ssister's birth specifically, she
, she doesn't want a free birth.
So there's that.
But I also don't think thatshe's a good candidate for free
birth.
And at one point in my life Ithought that free birth, I

(01:45:39):
thought that everyone could freebirth.
You know, I was excited.
I had my own dreamy free birth.
It was great and I was just soexcited and I'm thinking
everyone should do this,everyone should know this bliss
and this joy.
And you know, and still I do seewhere I disagree with some of
the practices that happen in thehospital and I don't think that

(01:46:03):
they are always, you know,conducive to the hormonal matrix
and all of that, but I stillthink that not every woman I
want to be careful with my words, but I think it's important to

(01:46:28):
have a certain level ofknowledge and confidence to
safely free birth.
And I think there's a reason whysome women transfer
unnecessarily when they freebirth, and when I say
unnecessarily, I mean justwithout the presence of an
emergency or complication.
I think some people believethat you don't need to do any

(01:46:50):
research to free birth, and thatmight be the case for some
women, but I also think thatthey kind of got lucky and I do
think it's a good idea to haveat least a certain foundation of
knowledge.
The reasons why I am soconfident free birthing is

(01:47:10):
because I have so muchexperience in birth work and a
foundational medical knowledgewhere, if my baby did need to be
resuscitated, I would know whatto do.
You know what I'm saying.

Angela (01:47:25):
Yeah, I definitely think it is important to do some
research if you're planning onfree birthing, for sure, and to
just be careful because, aswe're highlighting, there is
some misinformation out there incertain programs.
So yeah, and then also, likeyou mentioned, there are
ideologies on both sides, likethe hospital has their whole set

(01:47:47):
of ideologies of how thingsshould be, which you know isn't
a good thing on either side.
But to have these ideas and tojust let women choose, you know,
do their own research andchoose what's best for them, I
think is really what's mostimportant.

Nikki (01:48:00):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's a huge reason why I
created um, the birth my, mybirth prep course is because I
saw the value in providinginformation and I tried to be as
non-biased as possible.
But I really just wanted topresent women information so

(01:48:21):
they could make their owndecisions.
I'm not really interested intelling people how they're
supposed to birth, but I dothink that it is very valuable
to have real evidence-basedinformation, because there's so
much garbage out there and thereare so many people who are just
giving their opinions withoutanything to back it, and I do

(01:48:45):
think it is really valuable tohave some sort of research or
evidence to back what we'resaying.
Of course, there's a lot ofanecdotal information that can
be valuable, but, yeah, I thinkit is helpful to present the
medical perspective and theout-of-the system perspective

(01:49:08):
and everything in between, andthen women can just take that
information and choose whatfeels best for themselves.

Angela (01:49:18):
Yeah, that's so important.
So how can people get ahold ofyou, what's your website, and is
there anything else you want toshare about your birth course?

Nikki (01:49:29):
Yeah, so my website is bornfreefamilycom.
I do mainly these days, I docoaching virtually, and I also
support women locally in personfor postpartum care, locally in

(01:49:55):
person for postpartum care.
So I do stuff like yonisteaming yoga, meditation, stuff
like that, and, yeah, I alsohave the knowledge is power
birth prep course, which is mygo at your own pace
comprehensive pregnancy, birth,postpartum and newborn care
resource.
So you can find all of that onmy website and I also have

(01:50:17):
contact information on there aswell, so people can shoot me an
email if they have any questionsor if they want to get in
contact with me.

Angela (01:50:29):
Awesome.
Knowledge is power.
I love that yeah.

Nikki (01:50:33):
Great name for it Awesome .

Angela (01:50:34):
Well, thank you so much, Nikki, for taking the time to
chat with me today and forsharing your story.

Nikki (01:50:40):
Yeah, thank you so much.
This was really wonderful.

Angela (01:50:44):
Before you go, I just want to remind you I have a ton
of resources for pregnancy andbirth.
If you're pregnant, whetheryou're a first-time mom or if
this is your fifth baby, I wantyou to check out the show notes,
because I have some freetrainings and free downloads
that you can sign up for, aswell as the link to access my
Labor of Love, a comprehensive,self-paced online childbirth

(01:51:07):
education course.
I created this coursespecifically for moms who don't
want to be told what to do,regardless of where you're
birthing or who you're birthingwith, and I'd honestly love to
teach you everything that I knowso that you can prepare for an
autonomous birth experience andprepare to step into your role
as the leader of your birthjourney.

(01:51:27):
So click to the show notes,check out all of those links and
, if you ever have any questions, feel free to DM me at my main
birth over on Instagram.

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