140. MyMaine Birth: Thankful for Whapio, and The Beautiful Idea of Midwives as a Presence of Reassurance and a Fountain of Information

Episode Transcript
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Whapio (00:00):
My journey has taken me from oh working in photography
and hearing the angels sing,having two births at home, all
right.
Knowing that I was going to bea midwife, just that was my
little secret.
I need I didn't even tell mymidwife for a while because I
know about timing, you know.

(00:20):
So to having a 20-yearpractice, all right, in which uh
I have seen very fewcomplications, you know.
I haven't had a lot oftransports, I've only seen one
hemorrhage.
And some people don't evenbelieve me because they're like,
how how can that be?
I mean, I I knew a wonderfulmidwife who lived out on the

(00:43):
west coast, and and uh I lovedher.
She was a uh she was a nursemidwife, and she told me one
time when we were just talking,you know, she said, Well, for
every ten women I have fivehemorrhages.
And I said, No.
And she said, Yeah, and forevery ten women, I have four
resuscitations.

(01:04):
And she said, the way youpractice, Wapio, is interesting,
and I I appreciate it, but thatwouldn't fly with me because I
have all of these, you know, Ihave all these.
I don't know.
I don't know what's going onwhen you think about something
like that.
And then that's our midwiferycommunity, too.
It's not just the doctorssaying five out of ten women are

(01:27):
gonna bleed.
This is a midwife who is wellknown and well respected saying
five out of ten women bleed.
And I realize we're normalizingcomplications, and that's not
okay.
You know, that's a that's a bigred flag punctuation mark.
When we begin to normalize, oh,that's normal.
You know, oh, you'll have highblood pressure.

(01:49):
That's normal.
That's normal.
Yeah, and we'll fix it, youknow.
So, and right now, uh thewomen, here's what's what
happened.
Women said to me, Okay, Wapio,you know what?
20 years you've been doingthis.
We have taught you well.
I was like, Yes, you have.
I have sat at the feet of manypregnant women and learned about

(02:10):
birth, all right.
And I have sat in many cornersand knitted a hat while women
gave birth, knowing that I wasthe presence of reassurance in
the room, and that's all theyneeded.
Okay, that's all they needed,and that's how I would show up
for birth, all right.
And um, they said, now you haveto teach others.

(02:31):
And I was like, I get you.
Okay, because uh because we'rechanging.
We're gonna change the field.
All right, we haven't changedthe field yet, we've just
changed a little bit here andhere and here and here and here,
but now the whole field has toroll over, okay, and it's

(02:52):
happening, as you and I know,and women today have incredible
choices.

Angela (02:59):
I'm Angela, and I'm a certified birth photographer,
experienced duela, childbirtheducator, and your host here on
the My Main Birth podcast.
This is a space where we sharethe real life stories of
families and their unique birthexperiences in the beautiful
state of Maine.
From our state's biggesthospitals to birth center births

(03:19):
and home births, every birthstory deserves to be heard and
celebrated.
Whether you're a soon-to-bemom, a seasoned mother, or
simply interested in the worldof birth, these episodes are for
you.
Hi everyone, and welcome tothis very special episode of My

(03:39):
Main Birth.
I hope everyone had a lovelyThanksgiving.
Today I'm incredibly grateful,and I mean really thankful, to
be sharing a conversation withsomeone who's shaped my journey
in birth more than I canexpress.
My mentor, Wapio.
I'm so grateful for her wisdom,her guidance, her kindness, and

(04:04):
the deep respect that she hasfor birth and women's
sovereignty.
Finding Wapio and the Matrona,the community that she's
created, has truly been a breathof fresh air for me.
And I'm so excited to share herwords with you all.
In this season of celebratingthe things that we're thankful
for, I want to say that I amtruly thankful for Wapio.

(04:27):
Let's dive in.
Hi, Wapio.
Welcome to my main birth.
Hi, Angela.
How are you?
I'm good.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to chat with me today.
It means so much to me.
Oh, I'm so glad.
I'm happy to do that.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Okay.

Whapio (04:46):
And, you know, I had I don't know if I told you this,
but if I could live anywhere inthe world, it would be in Maine.
Oh, it's beautiful.
Oh, I just love it there.
I really, really do.
And um, and you know, I'm tooold now to live there by myself.
Uh well, I live with mygrandson, but he's not gonna be
living with me forever.
And I can't deal with thewinters, you know, who was gonna

(05:08):
shovel my drive away.
Anyway, that's it.

Angela (05:17):
So now for anyone who might not know who you are, it
still amazes me that I was justfinding out who you were around
this time last year and aboutthe different programs that you
offer and your amazingcommunity, the Matrona.
But for anyone that might notbe familiar with it all, would
you share a little bit about whoyou are?

Whapio (05:40):
Okay, so um thanks for asking.
And uh I have been a midwife orand in the birthing realms for,
I don't know, about 43 yearsnow.
Okay, I've seen a lot of thingscome and go.
Uh, people ask me oftentimes,well, what have you seen in all
of these years that you've beenin birth?
And um, what changes have therebeen?

(06:01):
And I'm like, well, it's gonnasurprise you because the changes
are not in the caregivers, thechanges are in the moms and the
dads and the families that arereclaiming birth.
That's the biggest change, andthat's the most important
change.
That's the one I've beenwaiting for, you know, for many,
many years in that sense.
And and now we have options.

(06:22):
Okay.
When I was a young midwife, uh,well, actually, I I lived in
Augusta, Georgia, where themidwifery renaissance had not
come.
All right.
It was still out in California,and I so wanted to have um, you
know, my babies at home for forjust regular reasons that you

(06:43):
would, you know, I wasn't eveninto birth.
I just felt like I I had read abook one time uh about birth.
And I thought, is this real?
That you do women really dothis?
You you you get locked in a bedwhen you're trying to have a
baby.
And and you know, I was like inmy 20s then and thinking, well,
I'm not thinking about having ababy right now.
But that I had this thought,like, but when I do, I am not

(07:07):
going through this rigma roll.
I and then and then, you know,later on, 10 years later, I'm 35
and I'm pregnant, and I'mthinking, well, oh yeah, you
said you weren't gonna go, whatare you gonna do now?
All right, how are you gonnafind what you need?
And I at first I thought Iwanted to be to be geared cared

(07:29):
for because I do feel like careis a big part of prenatal, you
know, the birth continuum.
And and so I thought, well,I'll go to a doctor, but I want
to be cared for by a woman, youknow, because this is a this is
birth.
Well, the woman doctor that Iwent to, uh, she was very aloof
and very uh just justprofessional, you know, and and

(07:54):
and I like didn't like that.
So I went to another OB.
Same thing.
All right.
And I'm like, is this is thisis this how it is?
Yeah, you know, um I haven'tbeen in a hospital before, like
in my adulthood or anything.
And so I'm like, is this how itis?
Is this you know, you havewomen are not actually later on

(08:14):
I did find out that women werenot really appreciated in the
medical model.
A lot of doctors, even in the80s, felt like women should not
be involved in birth becausethey were too emotional, and so
it so the back, you know, thebackstory on that is then that
all the mid uh the the obs noware very professional.

(08:38):
All right, they're notemotional in any way, or they
don't want to have an intimaterelationship with you, and I I
kind of did.
So I found a doctor.
I I like I was what is mystrategy here?
How will I do this?
Well, I'll go in at the lastminute and I'll leave at the
second last minute, you know,and just minimize my time at the

(09:01):
hospital.
And I was like, oh, I don'tknow what this is, you know.
And then I found a doctor thatwas uh that I liked.
He was he was a man who he hesaved the life of a
nine-year-old boy at peril tohis own.
And when I heard that, Irealized this is a person that
can put others ahead ofthemselves.

(09:22):
And that's what I want.
I want that kind of aninvestment from a caregiver.
All right.
And um I really appreciatedhim.
And I could say I loved him theway you love a caregiver.
Oh, I love my midwife, I lovemy doctor, I love my lawyer, all
right, I love my mother-in-law,whatever, that kind of thing,
you know.

(09:43):
And um meantime, I was workingwhen I was pregnant, and when I
was working in the mall in acamera store, this fella came in
and he uh wanted to show me hisbirthing pictures, you know.
I was at the register, I waschecking him out, and he was
like, our baby is so special.

(10:04):
And I was sort of like, Well,babies are special, you know,
because I'm six months and I'mwell, I don't even, yeah.
He said, Well, our baby wasborn at home.
And I was like, you know, I wasflabbergasted and the angels are
singing now in the fucking inthe mall and everything is, you
know.
So um, so I I ended up having uhlet's see how what happened.

(10:29):
Oh yeah.
So I asked this fella who yourmidwife was, or how did you do
that, or what, you know, and hetold me about a midwife who
lived in California, notCalifornia, uh Carolina, because
I was in Georgia.
And I called her up and she wasaloof with me.
I said, What is this?
And then of course I I realizedthat I I did not have any idea

(10:51):
before that that there was apolitical, a sociopolitical
aspect of birth.
I thought I felt like it, whatsomebody can tell you now where
to where you can and can't haveyour baby and who you can and
can't have with you.
So anyway, I kind of lucked outand I found Bobby Nowell, and
he sh pointed me to Ina May, andIna May pointed me to like

(11:14):
calling this woman, thismidwife, you know.
And uh I found out that she hadto vet me because she was not
legal or a legal, but she shedidn't have a license.
And I was like, having alicense to have give a baby,
help a woman give birth.
Okay.
So then when she came to visitus, I knew uh I knew I could

(11:39):
feel it.
Uh she was driving to ourhouse, uh, which was an hour and
a half away, by the way.
She uh I could tell I was gonnabe a midwife.
I I knew it.
You know, you know, the angelshad quit singing, and my husband
and I had you know talked aboutit even.
And uh so that was myintroduction into midwifery.

(12:00):
I just knew I was gonna be amidwife, and that this is what I
had been waiting for all thoseyears of trying to find my
purpose in life, okay?
And then here it is unfoldedfor me.
So I've had over all thoseyears.
I've apprenticed for threeyears with my midwife who um
helped me with my babies.
I had beautiful births, eventhough, especially for that

(12:23):
time, that era, this is back inthe early 80s, okay.
Um, uh 82, 83, 84.
I've apprenticed with her foruh three years, pretty much
almost three years.
And then I kind of went out onmy own.
Uh, I lived in Georgia, shelived in Carolina, okay.
Um, and I went to birth with uhone of her apprentices for a

(12:49):
while, and then and that thatdidn't last because this was a
woman who really wanted to uhserve people, and I not that I
would uh I wanted to be amidwife, she didn't, okay.
She just wanted to go to birth.
I just wanted I felt like no, Iwant to just do the whole
thing.
I want to be available forevery woman's needs, so I am

(13:11):
going to do what a midwife knowwhat a midwife would know.
Okay.
And uh so then, you know, Ipracticed for a couple of years,
about five years, and realizedvery quickly though, actually, I
I wasn't a lot like otherpeople.
I didn't practice the same wayas other midwives did.

(13:32):
And I didn't know any othermidwives hardly.
All right.
Um, man, many of them, I Iwould go to Atlanta.
I lived in Augusta, but theclosest midwifery kind of
community was Atlanta, Georgia.
And um, you know, I I uh I Iwent there.
Uh I would go to conferences.
My midwife uh would teach methings, you know.

(13:56):
She said to me though, well, Iwill take you to births with me,
but I'm not gonna, I'm not yourteacher.
I'm not really your teacher inthe sense that I'm not gonna,
you know, give you classes oranything like that.
You have to teach yourself.
There are plenty of good booksout there.
You can teach yourself.
And if you have a question, youknow, the long arc rotation of
a posterior or something likethat, well, you know, I can we

(14:19):
can talk about that, but I amI'm not giving you lessons.
So I say that I'm self-taught,but actually I've been taught by
many, many amazing women whowrote books like Anne Fry,
Holistic Midwifery, HelenBarney, Midwifery.
Uh you know, I I read all thesebooks cover to cover,

(14:40):
everything I could get my handson.
Um I'm reading High RiskNeonatal Tear by Ann Streeter.
You can buy it, you know, it'sa textbook, but you can buy it.
I saw the other day on eBay forthree bucks.
I read it.
Okay.
I wanted to know, I wanted tobe that veritable fountain of
information for people.
I wanted to have a point ofreference for anything.

(15:02):
I didn't expect that I wouldknow everything, but I wanted to
have a point of reference.
And um so then after about 20years in practice, and I had a
very lovely, I guess you couldsay bucolic practice, you know,
I didn't take a lot of clients.
I mean, there weren't a lot ofclients actually back in 1985,

(15:26):
86.
Okay.
So um, so I had a very slow uh,you know, practice where I
could spend a lot of time withwomen.
And um, I did a lot of theSoutheast.
I did about two hours away fromyou know where I lived.
All right.
There were no other midwives insome of those towns.

(15:46):
And um I realized that I alsoI'd go to conferences and I
would realize that the focus ofa lot of conferences was the
complications, you know.
How do we deal with this andhow much how much blood is a
hemorrhage?
And and I was like, wow, that'sinteresting.
I don't, you know, that's kindof not what I built my practice

(16:06):
around.
Uh, you know, what could becomplicated?
Um, we talk about that, but uhI didn't see a lot of
complications.
I didn't have a lot to offer,you know.
I mean, well, what did you dowhen your baby did this and
that?
And what have it was like, andin in my life, I've only seen
one hemorrhage.
And, you know, we're talkingabout 40 years plus here.

(16:29):
I've only resuscitated one babyat a birth, okay.
Uh, and I felt like, well,what's going on?
You know, I'm not practicinglike my colleagues at all.
I don't, I'm not having thosethings.
And I attributed to the factfinally that it's because I
spent a lot of time with women.
And I gave them a lot of time,energy, and attention.

(16:52):
T, I called it T-E-A, time,energy, and attention.
And I felt like women, theydidn't need to have those
complications.
They didn't need them.
Uh, you know, complications arenot mine, they're the mom's.
And if I attend a woman atbirth, this is her birth, she
orchestrates it, it's not mybirth.
And if she wants to have ahemorrhage, that's I will bring

(17:13):
everything I can to bear on it,you know, to help her with it or
to do what she wants to do.
But I'm not gonna tell her howto have a baby, you know, I'm
not gonna tell her what sheshould or shouldn't do.
I'm gonna be a fountain ofinformation and and she'll tell
me what she needs to know.
I didn't put I didn't keeprecords the first time I went to

(17:34):
see you.
I didn't keep a record on you.
I wanted to just hear you, allright.
And then later on I go home andwrite things down or whatever.
Okay.
And um, I mean, I became knownin my community as the lady who
goes to home stays home with youat birth, the lady that sits
with you at birth.

(17:54):
And then as we got more realabout it, and midwifery all of a
sudden became like a anotheroption, uh, well, most people
would call what I did midwifery,even if it was very low impact
hands off.
But you know what?
The payoff was that I spent anhour taking a walk in the park

(18:18):
with women rather than an hourdoing a glucose tolerance test.
And you tell me which onefacilitates and nurtures a
mother more.
And my whole thing was allabout nurturing moms and and
having them be self-directed andhaving a deeper connection with
them and having um truth andtrust as a basis for for our

(18:42):
care and um understanding moreand more that birth takes place
in an altered state.
All right.
Women have the option to gointo an altered state, all
right.
Oftentimes, if you leave womenalone, they will automatically
go into a deeper, um, moreexpansive state.

(19:03):
Actually, what's the value ofan altered state?
Your your perspective becomesuh and widened, widen your gaze,
okay?
And I felt like um women taughtme a lot about birth, you know.
The second client, maybe, maybethird or second client I ever
worked with was a Mennonite ladyhaving her eighth baby.

(19:25):
And what am I gonna tell herabout birth?
I'm gonna sit at her feet andlearn.
So I did, and um, I got a lotof birth uh interest in like um
like the Mennonite folk who weredelightful to work for, the um
the Baptist uh folk who wantedto have lots of babies at home,

(19:49):
right?
Um, and I felt very it was justa wonderful niche to be in, to
be with women who accepted thenurturing that I was willing to
offer, wanted to have what Icall a soul-level connection,
because you know, when you arein the pregnancy continuum, the
whole childbirth continuum, youraccess to altered states is you

(20:14):
just drop right in.
It it the veils are very, verythin here.
And I appreciated that.
And um, so that was my entryinto birth, okay.
And I wasn't a clinicalmidwife.
I think if it if birth wasclinical, I wouldn't have chosen

(20:35):
that as a vocation, as acalling.
I wouldn't be called to birth,okay?
Or I would be called to birthmaybe in the way that I was,
which is undisturbed.
When I found me Dr.
Michel Odon, it was like, okay,we're talking the same language
here, and you're helping meencapsulate what's going on.
Women, and and it's come totoday, all right, that women

(20:57):
tell me they want their ownbirth.
All right.
They don't the the whole cruxof it is it's not like we don't
want to have a midwife or adoula or someone, a birth
attendant or a birth witness,all right.
We do.
We just want that person to siton their hands and they want
that person to listen to usinstead of us, you know, having

(21:20):
to listen to the midwife.
We want the midwife to have tolisten to us and what we want.
And is there anybody out there,Wapio, that that feels the same
way that is a caregiver thatwould sit with you in labor
without having to be the centerof your labor, would sit with
you during your pregnancy, partpostpartum, and birth, rather
than having to be the center ofit and be the the leader here.

(21:44):
And um, I was thinking theother day about Helen Varney.
She passed away, she haswritten the book Midwifery,
which is the standard ofmidwifery care for nurse
midwifery, all right.
Um, and she used to call itnurse midwifery, but now that
she has realized that there aremany, many women, she's passed
away now, but um recently, anduh there are many, many women

(22:07):
looking for more home birth andmore midwives who will attend
them at birth, she says to herstudents, all right, home birth.
I I've seen her evolution also,you know, in her first edition,
second, third, fourth, eachtime she comes back with a
little more information abouthome birth.
The first time it's like threepages, and now it's like 30,

(22:29):
okay, and or more.
Uh, and what she tells her herstudent midwives is, you know,
some midwives are suited towomen who have home births, and
some midwives are not.
All right.
And if you are going to workwith women who have home births,
we we're not saying that youcan't, but you have to be
prepared for a different kind ofwoman.

(22:52):
You have to be prepared for awoman who is not going to want
you to be the center of herbirth.
So not a lot of midwives, noteverybody listened to Helen
Barney, okay?
And some midwives do have avery clinical practice.
But Helen Barney wasacknowledging that women want

(23:16):
something different, all right.
And if you are one of thepeople called to help her, a
woman and her family, you willprobably have to step back.
All right.
So there, you know, it's comefull circle, although I realize
that a lot of Helen Varney's uhstudents are not suited for home

(23:37):
birth.
All right.
They need to be the center.
They st they still want to beum and and see, this is one of
the things that women taught mereally early on was that we
don't need you to be the centerof our birth.
In fact, we want you to switchroles with our partner.
We our partner want we want ourpartner in the center with us,
and we want you on the edge.

(23:58):
How's that?
And I was like, absolutely,because you know what, I had two
babies, and that's exactly whatI wanted.
I would like it.
My midwife could have flownaway, actually, even, but if she
was there, I would have likedher to have just been a witness,
you know, a witness.
And even though I had a reallygood birth for the times, okay,

(24:24):
I still didn't have the birththat I wanted, you know.
Uh, and I see that with womentoo.
And uh Margaret Mead, who was amedical anthropologist in the
field of maternal health and andmaternal fetal health, has
pointed out that birth controlis necessary for the women who
live in Europe and uh uh uh youknow, the United States, North

(24:50):
America, that there's birthcontrol is an issue.
And she she said that when Ihave traveled the world and
looked into birth and indigenouscommunities, I don't see that
they have the need for birthcontrol.
They don't have a baby.
If they don't want a baby, theydon't have a baby.
They wait two, three years orwhatever.
And she said, you know, what'sthe but what's the denominator

(25:13):
here of why in these developedcountries we have so much
emphasis on birth control,whereas in the in the indigenous
world, and she said, the onlything that I can see that
creates that is that women inthe indigenous world have
satisfying births and don't feelthe need to do it again right

(25:36):
now.
They have gotten what they needfrom their births and they're
satisfied.
Whereas in Europe and theUnited States and North America,
women are not satisfied withtheir births, and their body is
coding now to do it again, do itagain, get it right, get it

(25:56):
right this time.
And that's what we're seeing alot of.
And that's brilliant that shekind of put that together.
You know, women are notsatisfied with their births, and
and they have every right tobe.
And birth is not a processwhere you get a product at the
end of it, birth is a journey oftransformation where a woman

(26:19):
learns to switch from herexternal compass of all these,
you know, things that want tohelp her, even that she switches
over to her own internalcompass.
And this is a time when thatreally happens for a woman.
All right.
And unfortunately, we we don'tunderstand that, and we kind of

(26:41):
take that away from a woman.
And then a woman, see, this iswhat women tell me often often
is that I don't know what it isthat I missed, but I feel like I
missed something off you.
I mean, I had a good birth,according to standards, you
know, and I liked my midwife alot, but I didn't get something.
I I feel like I didn't get it.

(27:02):
What is it?
And I I can tell you, you know,somebody out of either love or
unconsciousness or the desire todo this has kind of taken your
birth away.
Um all right.
They have put you put putthemselves in the center.
They are the star of yourbirth, all right.

(27:23):
And that's what's and what'shappening is this whole journey
of transformation.
You come out feelingtransformed.
You do, you make an act of willin birth.
You you you show it's amazingwhat happens in birth, in order
to give a woman the the courageand the the um commitment to be

(27:46):
a parent, you know.
So anyway, my journey has takenme from oh working in
photography and hearing theangels sing, having two births
at home, all right, uh, knowingthat I was going to be a
midwife, just that was my littlesecret.

(28:06):
I need I didn't even tell mymidwife for a while, because I
know about timing, you know.
Uh so to um having a 20-yearpractice, all right, in which uh
I have seen very fewcomplications, you know.
I haven't had a lot oftransports, I've only seen one

(28:29):
hemorrhage.
Um, and some people don't evenbelieve me because they're like,
how how can that be?
I mean, I I knew a wonderfulmidwife who lived out on the
west coast, and and uh I lovedher.
She was a uh she was a nursemidwife, and she told me one
time when we were just talking,you know, she said, Well, for
every ten women I have fivehemorrhages.

(28:51):
And I said, No.
And she said, Yeah, and forevery ten women, I have four
resuscitations.
And she said, the way youpractice, Wapio, is interesting,
and I I appreciate it, but thatwouldn't fly with me because I
have all of these, you know, Ihave all these.

(29:12):
I don't know.
I don't know what's going onwhen you think about something
like that.
And then that's our midwiferycommunity, too.
It's not just the doctorssaying five out of ten women are
gonna bleed.
This is a midwife who is wellknown and well respected saying
five out of ten women bleed.
And I realize we're normalizingcomplications, and that's not

(29:35):
okay.
You know, that's a that's a bigred flag punctuation mark.
When we begin to normalize, oh,that's normal.
You know, oh you'll have highblood pressure.
That's normal.
That's normal, yeah, and we'llfix it.
You know.
So uh and right now, I knowthis is going on and on here,

(29:56):
but right now I've the women.
Here's what's what happened.
Women said to me, Okay, Wapio,you know what?
20 years you've been doingthis.
We have taught you well.
I was like, Yes, you have.
I have sat at the feet of manypregnant women and learned about
birth.
All right.
And I have sat in many cornersand knitted a hat while women

(30:16):
gave birth, knowing that I wasthe presence of reassurance in
the room, and that's all theyneeded.
Okay.
That's all they needed, andthat's how I would show up for
birth.
All right.
And um, they said, now you haveto teach others.
And I was like, I get you.
Okay, because uh because we'rechanging.

(30:40):
We're gonna change the field.
All right.
We haven't changed the fieldyet.
We've just changed a little bithere and here and here and here
and here, but now the wholefield has to roll over.
Okay, and it's happening, asyou and I know.
Uh, and um women today haveincredible choices.
When I first started back in uhuh 82, um, well, you had the

(31:07):
hospital and it and birthingcenters were just coming along.
Women, you know, there weren'tvery many having women having
babies at home.
Okay, and usually it was in thereligious sect.
Um, there's a book out there byMarilyn Moran, it was in the
50s, and she really got it.
She talked about how in a goodChristian family the father

(31:30):
holds the charge, and thereforehe should be the person that
that catches that baby, thatlight that's coming forth
between these two people.
And that it was just veryreligious or spiritual component
of that.
It wasn't, oh, and there wasn'tany physiological physiology
attached to it, except hersaying we had to see very few

(31:52):
complications when we turn itover to um, you know, natural
instincts and God.
All right, put those together,and you have a perfect recipe,
and here you are, the midwife,to to um witness that, to
witness that for us, and onceagain, to be the presence of
reassurance in the room, andthat's what we need you to be,

(32:17):
and that's how I would show up.
And you know what?
After I after I understood thethe Hispanic phrase for um
giving birth, darus, giving thelight, giving light, I never
caught a baby after that.
I realized I didn't put thatlight in there.

(32:37):
That's not my light, that's notmy my life that's unfolding.
And I never I I sat in thecorner where she could see me.
Didn't want her to think I wassneaking up on her.
I I I did what she asked me todo, and I got out of the center
and went to the edge, and I justwrapped my wings around this

(33:02):
whole birth, you know, and dadscaught their babies, and I felt
like wow, and I still feel likedads should catch their babies
if they want to.
I mean, I I don't want to haveany ideologies about birth, like
we should do this, and youshould have a baby at home
because shouldn't you should dowhat you want to do, that's what

(33:24):
you should do, I guess.
That's my only ideology.
Do what you can do and learnfrom it and take your
transformation.
And if you don't want anytransformation, that's okay too.
And the Matrona has become aplace where we foster every kind
of birth that you can imagine.
If you want to have your babyin that stream outside, if you

(33:46):
want to have your baby underthat tree that got hit by
lightning, if you want to haveyour baby on the kitchen floor,
if you want to be, you know, ifyou want to have a baby with me
in the other room or in the caror or whatever, this is your
birth.
And when Michelle O'Don um camealong and started talking about
undisturbed birth, it's likethat's where it's at, okay?

(34:10):
And it could it could beassisted, it could be
unassisted, it could be like Isaid, any way you want it to be.
If this is your birth,orchestrate it.
And be, you know, and one ofthe very important things about
choosing uh uh a caregiver is tobe really careful because you

(34:32):
will change are 98% of the time,I don't know, whatever, 95, 82,
I don't know, percent of thetime, you will get the birth of
the caregiver.
All right, you will not getyour birth.
You may have been respected andhad time, energy, and
attention, but when it actuallycomes to the birth, there's a

(34:52):
lot of mixed messages.
All right.
Women are told, oh, you've gotthis, or your body knows how to
birth, or you your body was madeto do this, or you got this
now, girl.
And then in birth, we'retelling you what to do, you
know, as if what happened toyou, you got this, and what your

(35:13):
body, your body needs to knowexactly what to do, not just
what to do, exactly what to do.

Angela (35:20):
Here in Maine with the licensure laws, a lot of women
are going into birth and they'rethinking one thing, but then
the midwives have these otherthings, you know, that they that
women aren't even aware of thatare coming up in birth, these
kind of like walls that they'rehitting us like, oh, we can't
stay home anymore because ofthis or or whatnot.
And I feel like thoserestrictions and more women

(35:41):
finding out about thoserestrictions has led to a rise
in the number of families freebirthing.
And I'm curious with everythingthat you've seen to bring it
back a little bit, when was thefirst time that you heard about
the term free birth?
And what were your thoughtsabout it then?
And how was it received in thecommunity?

Whapio (36:00):
Okay, so um let's see, I was practicing in the 80s.
Uh I went I had my first childin 82, and then I saw and I
started practicing, you know,studying then, okay.
And then I had an another childtwo and a half years later.
Okay, so that was myapprenticeship pretty much.

(36:21):
Uh and as I say, back then itwas sort of like birth in the
hospital.
Home birth was like, you know,kind of shy.
Then the birthing center cameand people began to maybe
understand more about oh, womenwant something different, they
want a little bit more humanityin their birthings, okay.
So birth centers came out.

(36:43):
They didn't have much else.
And Matt, nobody was readingMarilyn Moran about, you know,
the the father's role in birth,okay, as being huge, all right.
Um, and but there was a womannamed Janine Parvati Baker, and

(37:03):
um she was a proponent ofkeeping women out of the system.
She suffered for two years withuh hep C Hepatitis C, uh, died
in you know at the age of 56,and believed it was because she
had she was RH negative and shewas given Rogam, and she got the

(37:24):
hep C from the Rogam.
And meanwhile, she had writtensome some very uh very cool
books.
She had a one of the firstbooks on prenatal yoga.
She had Hygia, which is awoman's herbal, and she wrote a
book called ConsciousConception.
And I looked on the I lookedthis morning on the e on Amazon,

(37:50):
and her book, uh Hygiea, isselling for $1,200.
Conscious Conception was $350.
The, you know, we have haveJanine to thank because she was
the first person I heard evertalking about a free birth, all

(38:10):
right, with no one there.
And she free birthed her twinsat home.
Okay.
And um uh I I I can't I canonly imagine what she'd be doing
if she was still alive.
Okay, I think she she uh passedaway at 15 56, I think.
Yeah.

(38:30):
Anyway, that's where I firstheard home birth.
And I thought to myself, wow,would I do that?
And um the more I thought aboutit, the more the more I
thought, well, would I do thatabout it?
See, I I was already practicingat this point, okay.
And um nobody was taking itseriously, free birth or or

(38:52):
something like that.
People blamed it completely onnot being able to find a
caregiver that was what theyneeded.
And I was like, no, that's notit.
Many women don't, it's notbecause we couldn't find
somebody else, so we had to, youknow, that was there, and that
is a certain percentage of womenwho are like, yeah, we we
didn't find anyone that we feltwould be comfortable with in our

(39:15):
own home, all right.
But uh that's not the onlyreason that people that women
had free births.
Women had free births becausethey recognize the fact that
this is a journey oftransformation.
They want to change fromexternal compass to internal
compass.
They want the the essence ofthe transformation of birth, of

(39:36):
this journey.
They want it, they want to makean act of will, right, and
summon themselves all right tothe top of the mountain and pick
up their baby and bring ithome, or so um free birth then
was kind of considered evenamong you know the the midwives,

(39:59):
it was sort of like, well, thatand that was another thing.
There was this big ego thingabout it.
Well, what do you mean youdon't want us at the birth?
Or what do you what do you meanyou don't need us?
And what do you, you know, andit was all like, no, you're
getting it wrong.
We would love you to have cometo the birth if you can be what

(40:20):
we need, if you can let go andnot bring the clinical milia
into our birth, not put us onthe clock, if you could just be
our witness, our presence ofreassurance in the room.
We would love to have youthere.
Just just about a month ago, awoman told me that uh she said,

(40:43):
Wappio, do you have any tips forme here?
She said, I love my midwife.
I'm even studying with her.
And I asked her, I said, youknow, I and I've had a beer
birth before, so I know theropes.
And I've asked her if I couldhave like an undisturbed birth
at home and that she would bethere because I didn't want what
you call a free birth.
I wanted a birth where I wasfree to do what I wanted to do,

(41:05):
but I want you as a midwifethere.
I love you.
I want to share my birth withyou.
And she said, So could we dothat?
Could you not do heart tonesunless I asked for it?
Could you not do vaginalsunless I want that?
Could you just not be thecenter of my birth?
And her midwife said, No, I'msorry.
I can't be that for you.

(41:26):
I have protocols.
And she said something about wetried that one time and it
didn't work out.
And she said, Do you have anytips for me?
What what what should I do?
And I said, Well, okay.
One of the most logical thingsthat you could do is well, it

(41:49):
depends on where you want toplug into this and and whatnot.
But you can just call yourmidwife late.
You know, you can call yourmidwife after after the birth,
or you can call your midwifewhen you start pushing, all
right, or you can call yourmidwife when the head is
showing.
Okay.
And if you do that, if ifenough women do that, we'll get

(42:12):
the message.
All right.
We'll get the message because Icouldn't call you for my birth
because you wouldn't bring theright energy into my birth.
And and this woman was like,Well, should I keep going at it
or should I just capitulate?
You know, she said her exactwords were, should I die?

(42:35):
I do will I die here on thishill alone?
Kind of, you know, and I waslike, No, I would keep keep
pushing it because the more wepush it, the more it'll come
into reality.
And more and more midwives willwill understand that.
Do we need midwives?
Women in birth.

(42:55):
I I mean I've said this before,and it took some heat for it,
but I don't think midwives needyou the way you think they do.
I think the midwives need youto be a witness, all right?
A witness to them and be therein case they need you.
And understand that birth isnot some sort of process that we

(43:16):
get a product at the end of it.
It's a journey oftransformation.
And that's where what womenneed and call that a midwife,
but that's not what a midwife isin many ways today.
As you said, um, a woman cancall herself a midwife, but then
there's a gap between whathappens in the prenatal care and

(43:39):
then what actually happens inthe birth.
And this is what a lot of womentell me.
There's this gap there.
And they weren't, they were ina position then where they were
vulnerable, didn't want to arguewith someone over the their
body and their baby.
Uh, their husbands were like,What should I do?
I don't know what my role hereis.
Um, I know she's gonna be angrybecause somebody need to say

(44:04):
something, maybe it's me.
Uh, but she's the stuff that'shappening to her is not what she
wanted.
Should I step in?
Should I not step in?
Dads are confused about what todo, all right.
And um that's why, you know,the Matrona exists in the sense
that women said, we want ourpartners in the center with us,

(44:28):
not you, Wapio.
And I was so happy because as Isaid, that's kind of what I
wanted.
I didn't particularly want afree birth.
All right, it wasn't really onthe table when I was birthing,
uh, you know, back in the 80s,but it was coming along.
And then, you know, midwiferykind of took a jump in the sense

(44:52):
that, oh, okay, there aremidwives.
And, you know, the medicalmodel said, well, don't worry
about it.
It's a hippie phase, you know,undisturbed birth or what free
birth or whatever all thatnonsense is.
It'll pass.
Well, no, it didn't pass, allright.
And then doctors and themedical model got a little bit

(45:15):
worried.
So, what should we do?
Because women are having birthsoutside of not just outside of
our realm, but outside ofgetting any prenatal care.
And giving yourself prenatalcare, that doesn't work.
I mean, you know, this is thethe understanding in the in the
medical model.
So then the medical model did avery savvy thing.

(45:38):
Um, the medical model said, oh,midwives, you guys are great.
We need you, we need youstanding with us, and so we will
we will train you, all right.
We'll make a monoculture ofbirth, everybody births the same
way in the hospital, all right?

(45:58):
Or if it's at home, there ityou know we're not trying to
have a home birth, uh hospitalbirth at home.
This is not this is not theanswer, okay?
This is not what we were doing.
So anyway, all of a sudden,then uh something shifted.

(46:20):
All right.
Something shifted where onceagain women woke up and are
claiming more about of theirbirth.
It's not just about midwives,and maybe it could have been,
you know, when when midwiferyfirst came out even as a as an
option, like when I was in theit was in the 80s, early 80s,

(46:42):
okay, and and late 70s and soon, Michelle O'Donnell wrote his
book, I think in 80 80 or 80something, talking about birth
reborn, how how thedemedicalization of childbirth,
okay, and how birth can look inhis birth reborn book.
All right.

(47:03):
And so we shifted, and I wedon't know why, but we all of a
sudden we started talking abouthaving your baby at home by
yourself.
And then uh some people pickedit up as a a crusade, all right.
Um yeah, I think I think uh thethe most natural and safe birth

(47:27):
for a woman is the birth that'snatural for her, the one, the
place that she feels convictedand and confirmed with.
And if if you know, should Ihave a home birth?
It's now should I have a home,should I have a free birth?
All right, instead of having ahome birth, now it's like that,
it's shifted into that.
Where are you having your babyis is a very relevant question

(47:51):
that wasn't a a thought in 1956or 66 or 76.
Of course you're having yourbaby.
You mean which hospital are youhaving your baby in?
And then all of a sudden, theturn of the century, 2000,
brought on some kind of newthing where we began to look at
birth again.
We needed a new paradigm ofbirth.

(48:13):
All right, the midwifery modelof care had its limits, okay?
And many people would tell methat um I love my midwife, but
at the end of the day, and theend of the at the end of the day
and at the end of the umprenatal, it was the same thing

(48:33):
I heard in a doctor's office.
You'll have these tests, you'lldo this here, you'll eat this
diet, you'll, you know, onlynicer.
Okay, and not so patriarchaland patronizing.
Okay, so what I'm saying is thesame thing.
Oh, yes, we need midwives.

(48:54):
Of course, we need midwives.
They they are precious to us,but we need midwives who can be
guided by women rather thanwomen be guided by the midwife,
all right.
The midwife stays out of ituntil she's called in it by you,
by the midwife, by the by herown instinctual responses to

(49:14):
birth.
And that's relevant.
Her own responses to birth, andthere are caregivers that
believe that their responses tobirth are more important.
All right, what do we do withthat?
Well, yes, that can make womensay, I don't want a I don't want

(49:34):
a caregiver.
And I saw this meme, and Idon't know who it was anonymous,
but it said a woman's greatestrisk in pot in childbirth today,
her greatest risk in childbirthtoday is her choice of
caregiver.
And that's true.
That's true.
All right.
So um at the Matrona, we'llstand with you.

(49:57):
I mean, we'll teach you aswomen come, they want to know
all about birth, they want thephysiology and they want the
psychology of birth, they wantthe practicalities of birth, and
they want the wisdom keeping ofbirth.
And I do anyway.
And I think I'm a good posterchild for not having a lot of
complications.

(50:17):
I didn't.
And and it's not me.
It was the women.
The women were nurtured, thewomen got what they needed, the
women were listened to, thewomen were, you know, able to
guide their midwife to a birth,to what they wanted, rather than
the midwife you guiding them tohow she gives birth.
All right, and what here it iswomen give birth, they're not

(50:42):
given birth, okay?
But the current state ofmidwifery today is you are given
birth rather than you aregiving birth.
And free birth is a wonderfuloption.
Uh, I hear wonderful stories.
Um, I I don't hear a whole lotof stories that make me, you

(51:03):
know, where do most babies die?
In hospitals, if you will, Ihonestly.
And I think you're there'salways going to be some
something, no, no, nothing isperfect in the sense of no, we
don't get everything we want.
But I feel like uh a lot ofwomen get what they need, and if

(51:24):
they are getting what theyneed, their births unfold in a
very unneedy way.
They don't need thathemorrhage.
And you might say, Oh my god,what I'm listening to, what am I
listening to here?
You don't need that hemorrhage.
You don't, you know, it'soptional.
And uh, who's to say that awoman, you know, one woman

(51:46):
midwife told me, she said, Ithought I see hemorrhage as a
woman's uterus crying.
And I'm like, whoa, I havenever thought about that.
But okay, why?
Why would a woman's uterus becrying?
Because she's not getting whatshe needed in her birth.
It's a process that gives youan end product that is alive and

(52:06):
healthy, all right?
And we're missing somethingreally big here, and and free
birth is beginning to fill thatgap of understanding.
Women are taking a look atwell, why do I want a free
birth?
Why do I need a free birth?
Why won't my midwife give me afree birth?
I don't really want a freebirth.
I want my midwife there, iswhat this woman is saying to me.

(52:28):
But she can't make thatinvestment in me.
She had to be invested in herlicense and in her colleagues.
All right.
Do we need that?
Is that really midwifery?
Of course we need midwifery.
Women want women it's theoldest thing in the book, okay?

(52:52):
Having a a a baby and havinggiven care, all right, and not
abandoned in any way, and womencaring for each other.
All right.
And remember that when youlived out on the prairie all
those years, you know, and we'rethe your midwife was the
closest woman to you, all right,who lived closer than five

(53:12):
miles or something, okay?
So free birth is part is partof the spectrum, all right?
Locked up tight hospital birthversus free birth and everything
in between.
Moms have a whole speedometerhere that they can choose from.
And um, and I show up as thepresence of reassurance and the

(53:34):
fountain of information, andthat's what we do at the
matrona, all right.
Um, the matrona is that womanwho sits and knits in the corner
in the Hispanic tradition,okay.
And the there's the obstetra,like the clinical midwife, and
then there's the matrona, who isthe grandmotherly midwife who

(53:55):
tells stories and and knits,okay.
And um a woman should not feelany guilt or any shame or any
negativity regarding herchoices.
I I think that that'sunconscionable, untenable to
shame a woman for her.

(54:16):
Oh, so you're not gonna go fora wild birth, huh?
Or you know, oh, and that'swhat's I I talked to Nathan
Riley lately, and he, well, awhile back, and he was telling
me that it it's not being calledfree birth anymore, it's become
becoming wild birth.
All right.
Now that you're you know,primitive birth and back to
basic birth.
And I'm like, yeah, okay,that's fine.

(54:39):
Um, and you know, I'm not gonnauh get too hung up on the
nomenclature, you know.
I know what women want.
You know, we can call it a freebirth.
I liked undisturbed birth, Ithink that's what we're
claiming.
Is uh and are there midwiveswho can help women be show up

(55:01):
for women without being needingto be, as the venerable Helen
Varney said, the star of theshow, the center of a woman's
birth.
Women are looking for that kindof midwife.
Can you be that midwife?
You'll find them at home.
All right, women who give birthat home are often that kind of

(55:22):
person.

Angela (55:23):
And these days, with the way that the term midwife has
become one of the system as theynow train midwives, a lot of
the women that are doing thisaren't really even calling
themselves midwives because whattechnically we would be doing
isn't even like the definitionof a midwife these these days,

(55:44):
right?
It's the definition of amidwife would be more of
something medical.
You know, the system hasco-opted almost.
And so it's yeah, we so itthese other terms, um, I like
how you kind of use likemonetrice or like something in
between a doula and a midwife iswhat I feel like some women are

(56:05):
looking for when the midwiferelicensure limits.
I know here in Maine, women whoare pregnant with twins and
anyone who has a breach baby,some of these women are going to
home birth anyway, and they'rejust they're not able to invite,
even if they wanted to, uh aqualified, experienced, trained,
licensed midwife.

(56:26):
So I feel like that kind ofputs them in this, in this hard
spot of looking for someone elsethat can be with them, you
know, in a home birth setting,but is still, you know, going to
going, they want their birth,you know, is what I keep hearing
from women.
They want their birth, theywant a birth their way, and like
who is going to stand with themin that?
And that's it.

Whapio (56:48):
Women want their own birth.
They don't want their sister'sbirth, they don't want my birth,
they don't want your midwife'sbirth, you know, they don't want
their doctor's birth.
So who will and then thequestion comes, who will stand
with us?
Because we're not all aboutfree birth.
We're all about maybeundisturbed birth.
But free birth, well, whateverthat is, you know, some people

(57:10):
are like, you know, you just doit without a caregiver or, you
know, or something like that.
Uh and, you know, or or alicensed caregiver, or, you
know, just you and your doula,okay, or um you and your
monitrice or s or something.
Yeah, we did start a monetriceprogram.
You know, when I was a babymidwife, there were lots of

(57:31):
monitrices.
They were childbirth educators,but they were they had an
advanced level.
They knew how to checkcervixes, they knew how to
listen to heart tones and uhinterpret them correctly, they
knew how to uh uh estimate theprogress of labor.
Okay.
Um they were able to palpate ababy and understand position and

(57:54):
things like that.
They weren't meant to behigh-risk practitioners
whatsoever.
If there was a problem, it wasalways referred to uh uh uh a
more medicalized, a moremedicalized experience, okay.
Um the monetrice was oftensomeone who came to the birth,

(58:17):
and um today we it might bedifferent, but the monetrice
would come to your birth and shewould stay with you, and then
when you wanted to go or whenyou were she thought you were
ready to go, you would go to ahospital.
So a lot of times monitriceswere going to the hospital with
the woman as well.
And um uh and it some womenwould have a private caregiver,

(58:40):
okay, in there like a hired amidwife, but you're also hiring
a monetrice because a lot ofmidwives are very busy, they
don't have the time to give youthe T E A, all right.
Um, and the lone, you know, andthe walks in the park and
things like that.
One one midwife told me, Idon't have time for walks in the

(59:01):
park with people.
And I'm thinking, well, willyou have time for a con?
You know, it's not for me tosay, but will you have time for
a uh complication?
Okay, I feel like that's why Ihaven't had seen a lot of
complications in my lifetime.
Uh I gave women lots of T E A,and uh I approached them as my

(59:26):
guide.
You know, you guide me, I don'tguide you.
And if we're going to have arite of passage, you guide
yourself.
Okay, so I can completely moveout of that.
And you know, so for somewomen, that's what they're
missing.
They're missing this the shiftthat happened into the I'm still
under the guidance of anexternal force here.

(59:47):
I didn't get, I didn't make myact of will, I didn't get, and
for some women, it's like Idon't even know what I didn't
get, I just feel empty in thisplace that there's something.
In me that hasn't beenfulfilled.
Right, I think it's animportant thing to continue to

(01:00:08):
open our perspectives aboutbirth, period.
Because if we could understandthe magnitude of birth, the
things that we do to women, wewould never do.
You know, if we understood themagnitude of the journey that
this is, okay, rather than aprocess of something, you know.

(01:00:31):
And we're getting closer, butbut you know, it before a
change, things often get reallytight.
What I have seen in the past 40years is that women are
bothered more and more and more.
Okay.
And um, I read it, let's see,it was about five years ago.

(01:00:53):
I read a study where in Canadawhere hemorrhage was on the
rise.
And um, so they did a study tosee why is hemorrhage on the
rise.
And they couldn't exactly comeup with an answer, but the but
the um solution was more drugsand more monitoring.

(01:01:15):
And so now every in Canada, inmany places in Canada, uh
licensed midwives have to comein two even.
You know what I mean?
You have to have two of themcoming to the birth.

Angela (01:01:27):
At least I started here in Maine, too.
You have to have two midwives.

Whapio (01:01:31):
Really?
Okay.

Angela (01:01:32):
Yeah.

Whapio (01:01:34):
You know, so that's a that that right there is a whole
pivot of your birth turning oninto the clinical.
There's two births here now,you know, and two, I'm sorry,
two midwives here now, andthey're here to do their job,
and their job is to manage you.
One of the things that I willsay is with undisturbed birth,

(01:01:59):
or free birth, or wild birth, orunassisted birth, okay, or home
birth, you don't make decisionsfor your clients.
Okay.
You don't practice medicine andyou don't practice midwifery.
All right, because if you do,you become a clinical

(01:02:19):
practitioner and therefore youbecome responsible on some level
uh when there's an outcome thatis not what people expected.
Okay.
You never, as a as a doula, asa monitrice, as a birth sitter,
as a midwife, I don't makedecisions for you.
I am a wealth of information.

(01:02:41):
I will answer any questions.
You can ask me what I would do,I would tell you what I would
do, but that's not you.
And I I am not making yourdecisions for you.
This is forward moving.
All right, because we do havepeople who want a home birth,
but they're not willing to takethe um the responsibility of the

(01:03:04):
outcome.
Okay.
You know, you're saying I don'twant to be disturbed, so we're
not going to disturb you.
And if something is missed orsomething like that, you know,
you we're the Amona Trice isthere to give you her um
observations.
A midwife there is give youtheir observations.
It's not meant to change yourbirth, it's it's to give you the

(01:03:27):
options to what do you want tosee to do here?
Oh, your baby is breach.
Oh, do you want to go in?
All right, rather than oh, yourbaby's breached.
But you know what?
I've done uh I've done a lot ofbreach births, or I've took a
take a great workshop with Dr.
Fieschbein and all of that.
So I'm pretty comfortable withbirth with be with breach.

(01:03:50):
Well, that's that's good,that's information, but that's
not your decision to make.
Oh, okay.
Or to talk her into somethingor like that, you know.
Um the whole idea too of themonetrice is that well, what if
you're a doula and the baby'scoming and your midwife is in

(01:04:14):
traffic because you live inChicago, all right?
Wouldn't it be nice to know wwhat happens here?
All right.
What is the two of the biggestthings that happen that we are,
you know, punctuation marks withare um breathing, is the baby

(01:04:35):
gonna breathe, and bleeding, isthe mother not gonna, you know,
not gonna bleed.
And so we do want to offer aprogram in that.
We do want you to feelcomfortable if a baby is being
born, that you don't, you know,that you don't lose your your
confidence in birth.
Okay, and if you for me, ifsomething is a variation of

(01:05:01):
normal, uh the parents have aright to know your observations,
that's why they hired you.
Part of it is for you to givethem observations, okay, so that
they can make decisions, butuh, we don't make anyone's
decisions for them.
All right, never.
And don't.

(01:05:22):
Uh, I agree.
Why should you?
Uh and I realize also that thisis, as I said, very forward
thinking when a couple comes toyou and says, I know you have a
lot of birthing knowledge, Iwould like to invite you to my
birth.

(01:05:42):
Uh and um, you know, yourquestion to them is, okay, so
what is your responsibilityhere?
What do you feel myresponsibility is is?
I always ask women that andfamilies, and I also understand
that in our culture the dadholds the charge.
All right, and if the dad says,I think we should go in.

(01:06:06):
Uh you you may disagree, or themom may disagree, but the dad
has the final issue because thedad is considered legally and
lawfully and familiarly andspiritually and religiously and
socially to be the head of thefamily and to be the
decision-making person for thisfamily.

(01:06:30):
So I have no problems with thatas long as we're talked about
it.
Um traditionally, monitricesdid not um, they they were
working with women who hadanother caregiver in the sense
of we want you because we don'twant to go in too soon.

(01:06:51):
You know, we want you somebodyto check our cervix and we, you
know, or tell us, you know, it'stime to go now, you'll be
pushing soon, or you know,you're in transition, don't
worry.
That's what's going on.
It's intense, okay?
Uh, or things like that.
But um, yeah, so we have come along way.
I don't, I don't really knowhow far over we can go anymore

(01:07:16):
with, you know, free birth andand uh wild birth.
I think it's great.
I think women should I think weshould listen to women and hear
what they want, they want us tohear and and tell, you know,
and be a fountain ofinformation.
And I think there's a place foreverything.

(01:07:38):
I think our our our mantra atthe Matrona might be uh learn
everything and use it wisely.
All right, that's how it stacksup for me.
Um, and yes, I would like tosee more sister midwives who
said, yeah, I hear that from myclients too.

(01:08:00):
Is it working out for you?
Yeah, it is working out, isn'tit?
I can see a shift in birth.
Women are are are are capableof doing what we told them they
are capable of.
It's actually happening.
All right, but for that tohappen, we need to step back.
All right, we need to step backand further and further and

(01:08:20):
further.
And I think that's what we'llbe doing.
And I also don't think that ifmidwives don't do it, all right,
if midwives don't see what wewant here and see the magnitude
of birth, uh, midwives will berelegated to high-risk women.
Women who are normal and nothave any risk about it, then,

(01:08:42):
you know, will not want someonewho needs to be the center of my
birth or who needs to, youknow, have a hold on me, or who
can't, you know, practicewithout being the center of a
woman's birth.
That then I think womenmidwives will be just relegated

(01:09:02):
to high-risk clients who needsomeone to manage them.

Angela (01:09:06):
Well, this is where I think it's almost a little bit
backwards here, because there'sa lot there's quite a few women,
I feel like, that are with thelike opting out of this range of
where the licensure allows herein Maine, um, which is only the
normal like births, you couldsay, but any these higher risk
like breach twins, and thenhaving had a C-section within 18

(01:09:30):
months or more than oneC-section, they they're not
allowed to work with theseMidwests.
Who, like, would you considerthose categories more high risk?
And I, you know, like whatadvice, I guess, would you maybe
have for some of those womenwho are in that sort of tricky
place that do really want a homebirth and want to lead their

(01:09:51):
own births, they want their ownbirth, but you know, maybe they
would like that midwiferysupport there, like this hard
place.

Whapio (01:09:59):
There's a lot to be said for variation abnormal because
birth is unpredictable and umpeople are very frightened of,
you know, variations becausevariations could lead to
complications.
Okay.
And I feel like my stand onthat is the first thing is to
give this complication uh orthis variation to the mom and

(01:10:22):
saying, This is what myobserving.
How do you want to, how do youfeel about this?
All right, or or you know,something like that.
Um I feel like we are on aslippery slope.
I think the the the woman Itold you about that said, I want
my midwife at my birth, but Idon't want her to manage me.

(01:10:43):
And you know, I'm a good casefor asking for that because I've
studied midwifery and I've hada and and you're my good friend,
and and I work study with you.
And you know, I'm I I can'tunderstand why you wouldn't give
that to me, you know, but themedical model has um locked it

(01:11:06):
up.
All right.
And okay, women have the rightto make a decision where they
want to give birth.
I am asking women to do this.
Years ago, your sisters foughtfor informed consent.

(01:11:26):
In the 60s, there was no suchthing as informed consent.
In the 70s, it was beginning tobe tossed around.
I don't want the, you know.
Uh in the 80s, we're stillfighting for informed consent.
And um doctors are like, whatare you talking about?
Informed consent?
What does that mean?

(01:11:47):
Because doctors were like, youmean somebody wouldn't do what
we told them to do, or somebodydidn't, you know, and we're
like, Yes, we're we're saying toyou, you can't put your hands
in someone's body if theydisagree with if they if they
don't let you, all right?
You can't give somebody uhPitocin unless you let them all

(01:12:08):
right do that.
And and so women have to bebrave and strong.
Informed consent was, you know,we now have it, all right?
It's on every patient bill ofrights.
Um, what I feel though is thisthat if we don't use informed

(01:12:29):
consent, we're gonna lose itagain.
We're gonna lose it.
How many midwives do you know,or doctors or or whatever, who
also say in their prenatal carein their first visit, you know,
there is such a thing asinformed consent, and here in
this practice, we cannot doanything to you that you refuse.

Angela (01:12:51):
Nobody says that.

Whapio (01:12:53):
Nobody says that.
Yet we're all about it.
You know, the this is where theholistic model of care has left
us.
It's hung out, threw us underthe bus, okay?
Because at the end of the day,it sounds like a doctor.
Okay.
And um, who's gonna changethat?

(01:13:14):
You and I?
I don't know.
Women, yeah.
Consumers, yeah.
People who are who are wantingtheir birth, yeah.
They just need reassurance.
All right, some women areafraid to though say, I can't be
responsible for my birth,though, you know.
That's fine.
You don't need to beresponsible if you choose a

(01:13:36):
different kind of caregiver.
There are caregivers that arehappy to manage you and willing
to manage you.
And if you want managed care inour country, you get a choice,
managed care or physiologic.
So let's talk about this.
Anyone talking to parents aboutbirth, they need to know that
if you don't specifically want auh a managed birth, you have to

(01:14:01):
ask for a physiologic birth.
And most caregivers understandthat every now and then you get
somebody who is like, oh, well,all birth is physiologic, and
that that person is not yourcaregiver.
Okay.
Um, you know, okay.
Uh yes, you know, somebody whois honestly invested in you will

(01:14:23):
want to hear about well, whatdo you mean by uh a physiologic
birth?
Well, you know, I I'm not gonnahave any vaginals, I'm not
going to push until I feel likeit.
I'm not gonna stay in the bedif I want to get out of the bed,
no one is gonna break mywaters, no one is gonna rupture
my membranes at all.
Um, you know, no one is goingto take my baby away from me, no

(01:14:43):
one is gonna cut the cord untilI'm ready, no one is going to
uh take the baby over there forany reason, any reason at all.
All right.
Um, you know, so you have toask for those things you do.
So ask for them.
And know that the more you askfor them for you and everyone,

(01:15:06):
it will come to that.
And you won't have to ask, youjust have to say, I want a
physiologic birth, and the nurseknows what you mean.
All right, and your partner orthe father of the birth has to
go in with you if you're goingin.
The father of the birth has toimmediately say, Hi, how are
you?
We're in room 301.
Okay, where's the charge nursetoday?

(01:15:27):
Oh, can you come down to ourroom when you get a second and
introduce his monitrice or doulaor why and pay, you know, wife,
partner, and just say, We'rehere to have a physiologic
birth, and we're very glad to beusing your hospital.
Okay, and pretty soon it willhappen like that.

(01:15:49):
All right.
Now, we fought for informedconsent.
We did.
All right.
Now I'm asking women to fightfor another thing now.
How dare anyone to tell you whoyou cannot have or or can who

(01:16:09):
can come to your birth?
Who has any right whatsoever todeclare that this person is
illegally poised to haveproblems if they come to your
birth?
No, you can't practicemidwifery without a license.
You can't practice medicinewithout a license.
Okay, so don't.

(01:16:29):
And don't, you know, don't giveher a uh if she has lab work,
you're not going to interpret itbecause you're practicing
medicine and midwifery.
But give her Anne Fry's book ormake a little thing so that she
can understand what her yougive it, it's a handout, and she
understands.
Okay, so we have to do that.

(01:16:52):
And I'm asking mothers to go onrecord of of saying we want all
birthing attendance to bedecriminalized.
All right, we want nocriminality, is that a word,
associated with who a womanchooses to give birth with.

(01:17:12):
That's ridiculous for somebodyto have to sit to say, oh, but
you can't have this person atyour birth.
You can't have this person totell to comfort you or you know,
doulas, they made it in there.
So just don't practicemidwifery.
I mean, do you need to really?
And and you know, I today Iwould not practice midwifery.

(01:17:37):
I would have my ministry, Iwould make my birth my ministry,
and um leave me leave us alone,all right?
Because this is a viable optionnow for caregivers, monitrices,
doulas, even.
All right, as long as you donot make decisions for the mom.
All right.

(01:17:59):
If you tell the mom, oh, yourwaters are ruptured and there's
meconium, but I can you can stayhome.
You're practicing midwifery,and you know, and you shouldn't
be telling women things likethat, really, because how do you
know?
Uh, but the dad makes thechoice.
And if the dad says, we feelperfectly comfortable right now
with what's happening, uh, andwe're gonna stay home, or you

(01:18:21):
know, fine, there's that.
We have to respect the dadbecause that is the law,
legally, lawfully, and all ofthose others, okay.
And also, I think women shouldrevel revolt against anybody,
you know.
When I was practicing one timein uh Georgia, where I lived,

(01:18:45):
oh, I don't know, I waspracticing about 10 years then,
you know, uh, the midwives inAtlanta decided they would sign
birth certificates.
And at one point, the Bureau ofUh Vital Records, where your
births and deaths are noted, thepeople in the Bureau of Vital

(01:19:06):
Statistics were like, who whoare these people that are are
signing birth certificates?
And someone said, Oh, they'rethe midwives.
And the response to that was,we don't have midwives who go
around signing birthcertificates.
Who who are what do you meanthese are the midwives?
And then it became apparentthat there were a number of

(01:19:27):
women in Atlanta who were goingto births and offering midwifery
care and calling themselvesmidwives, and their clients
called them a midwife, okay?
And the and the um authorities,if you will, were like, How did
we miss this?
And um then a witch huntoccurred, okay, back in the 90s.

(01:19:51):
And um many many midwives wentout of business, okay.
They did not feel that theywanted to go to birth to births
and there'd be a criminalrepercussions of that.
Because there it did get kindof nasty.
Computers were um confiscated,a couple of midwives were kind
of run out of town.

(01:20:13):
Um, if you had a bad outcome,well, God bless you, you know
what I mean?
Because they would probably putyou in jail, all right, for
practicing midwifery without alicense and medicine and you
know, having a bad outcome.
So it got to be pretty hairy.
And I uh I didn't know what todo.

(01:20:36):
I I I I thought of myself as amidwife then and a birthkeeper,
but that word wasn't around yet.
That's a new word, pretty much,for the the wild woman.
All right.
Um, so what happened was thatuh I I needed to have a sign,

(01:20:57):
and I did get a sign that Ishould keep on practicing.
I did.
All right, and I'm a greatbeliever in signs, all right.
Uh and I believe yeah, Ibelieve that there's a lot to a
lot of the metaphysical stuffthat we just do are cannot
associate with healing andbirth.
You know what I mean?

(01:21:18):
That kind of thing.
It's a no-no to think aboutsomebody praying for you and a
miracle happening or something.
But anyway, um, so we've hadinstances, you know, where where
women have said, hey, hey, hey,no, you're not taking my
midwife to jail.

(01:21:38):
But what happens is the systemgoes in and they fix it so that
you're not allowed to talk toyour clients anymore.
They put a gag on things.
It's like we need midwives, weneed, well, we need midwives,
but we need women to talk aboutthis fact that no one has any
right to tell them who they canor cannot have at their birth.

(01:22:01):
And that's period, that's theend of it.
Just like now, a woman cannot,you don't have to have anybody
put Mitocin.
If you want, don't wantPitocin, you can say no.
All right.
And if you want a certainmidwife or a certain doula, or
that's all you want to have atyour house, why would anybody
get involved with that?
All right.
Women have to really do thisfor us.

(01:22:24):
And I think they would if theyknew if somebody could organize
it.
All right.
A bill that says a woman has aright to choose any caregiver
that she wishes without criminalrepercussions.
Let's do that.
That's what's going to changeit.
Women saying this, not you orme.
All right, but we're gonna makewomen aware of this.

(01:22:47):
We're gonna make women awarethat if the dad said, don't do
that to her, she didn't, shedoesn't want that.
A doctor who's who's you'resavvy enough to say that, we'll
put the the forceps down.
I don't even know if we useforceps, no, we induce instead.
Um, but you see what I'msaying?
We have to be savvy too, and wehave to have mid women who say,

(01:23:11):
Yeah, I I will choose who Ihave in my birth, not you.
And I will take that to court,you know that that I have every
right to have this woman, andyou have no right to to put a uh
uh, you know, to create alimitation on me.

(01:23:31):
But be careful, don't makedecisions for people.
Who are you?
You're not licensed.
Who are you?
Why would we obey you?
Well, it's coming around.
And I I mean, you know, I'vebeen in this business business
in this vocation for 40 someyears, and we're still having

(01:23:54):
women suffer, okay, because oftheir their birthing
experiences.
We're still having women beingcompletely derailed
psychologically.
We're having women who say, Icannot even focus on my baby
because I can't get out of myhead my birth.

(01:24:17):
It was so awful.
Okay, birth is not meant to bethat process that gives you a
product, okay?
It's meant to be that journeyof a transformation, and the
more women that have thattransformation, the more it will
become valuable.

(01:24:38):
All right, because it isvaluable.
And so I wrote this thing whenI was a midwife for about four
or five, five or six years,maybe, and realized that I was a
different midwife.
And that's okay because therewas no one else in where I
lived, and I could practicewithout having to owe anything

(01:24:58):
to any clients or or colleagues.
I had to, you know, practicelike that uh or or anything.
No, I was able to, it was justme and you and the family and
and who's ever working upstairs,God, you know, and it felt
really good that that's who Irespond to.
I don't have to respond toanyone who has my license or who

(01:25:21):
is uh expecting me to work in adifferent way.
All right.
And I feel like this monetriceis really good because women
want somebody like that,actually.
They don't they don't reallyneed a full-fledged midwife, but
they maybe don't want to go itcompletely alone.
They won't want to have someonewho has your back, someone
who's that fountain ofinformation.

(01:25:42):
They know because you told themyou're not making any decisions
for them, and that's final.
Okay.
All right.
And um, the husband, partner,father of the baby has to be
involved in this, and we have torespect that legally and
lawfully.
The dad holds the charge.
And I don't mean he makes allthe decisions, I mean he holds

(01:26:04):
the charge for the birth.
Okay, it's not like he yeah,has to read a book or anything,
and he knows when someone'sbullying his partner or when
someone is not valuing her.
Hey, no one's listening to her,you know.
That person, that person isgonna be the dad that changes

(01:26:25):
things, and we are dedicated todads at the Matrona, okay.
We understand that the doctorsmay want to create a
relationship with the fathersnow, to where you know, they
they bond with the dad.
No, and you're not gonna leavea mom sitting there in the bed

(01:26:47):
while you're in the in, youknow, that could ruin a
marriage, okay.
Or conversely, you're sittingin the bed and you don't want a
vaginal, and your husband knowsit, and instead of being like,
you know, what you know, hesays, Oh no, she doesn't want
that.
That's on our birth plan, or ohno, we're having a physiologic
birth, she doesn't want it, uh,you know.

(01:27:09):
Now that's hot.
Okay, you're sitting in thatbed, and that man is making or
father of the baby is lookingout for you, all right.
They know exactly what to do,and more and more men are being
convinced, and you know, this ismy answer to um this is my
answer to domestic violence.

(01:27:31):
I think if a man kneels infront of his wife or partner or
father of the baby and catchesthat light, they're way less
likely to hurt these two people,this mother, this baby.
I my friend Aleda told me thatuh she really, really wanted her

(01:27:52):
husband to catch her baby, youknow, and they they were gonna
have an unassisted birth, youknow, she was gonna have her mom
there in the kitchen, though.
She didn't really want her momat the birth, um, but she wanted
her mom in the house.
And uh and another lady withwas there in and they stayed in
the kitchen entirely.

(01:28:13):
And um, well, she asked me if Iwould come to her birth, and I
said, if you want your husbandto catch your baby, I shouldn't
be there because your husband,it took a long time for him to
wrap his head around the factthat a home birth would be a
good idea, but he would give hispower to me, you know.
Uh and and and says, You don'twant that.

(01:28:36):
You you you want if you wantyour husband to catch your baby,
it's just you and him, youknow, and your mom's in the
kitchen and I'm not in thehouse, all right.
And he did, he caught theirbaby, and she said, Wapio, he
just he likes he loves his twoother children, but he is
bonding with this child.
He is just walking aroundsaying, This child is so

(01:28:57):
beautiful, this child is sobeautiful.
Oh, look at him, he's sobeautiful, he's beautiful, and
she said, I'm like, What?
Come to your senses, and he'slike, No, oh no, no, look at
this child.
This is what we want.
Yeah, this is what we want.
It's the creation of family.
So we do dads, yeah.

(01:29:19):
All right, we do moms, we dobirthkeepers, we do monetrices,
we do midwives, all right.
And I'm asking that if thereare any midwives out there that
feeling are feeling what we'retalking about today and are
feeling about how women, how wework for women and how that has

(01:29:41):
been turned around, okay.
And uh, and want to startsomething or you know, plan
something around women, whatwomen want, and they want
whoever they want to have attheir birth should be legal for
them.
All right.
All of that.

(01:30:02):
Yeah.

Angela (01:30:04):
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Wapio.
This is amazing.
Would you share a little bitabout like anything you have
coming up with the Matrona?
Any um programs you have comingup?
Or sure.
Okay.

Whapio (01:30:17):
We have um our doula class happening, and the last
one of the year is the firstweekend in December.
And we do a doula class likenone other.
I mean, we don't do what's inthe books.
You'll hear things like, Well,how did you really get here?
All right.
Don't you want to know?
Don't you want to know thetruth and the authenticity of

(01:30:37):
conception and fertilization?
It's not a random event, it's anoble event.
The sperm line up and make aprocession and you know, and
we've seen this through thosefiber optic things that the
sperm are amazing little things,little creatures.
And we used to think that theywould go like this, but no, they

(01:30:58):
spin.
All right.
They're all spinning andspinning and cre and shooting
off light, all right?
And um, and that it's abeautiful thing, it's not a
random macho thing, all right.
Uh, and and do you know thatwomen carry the complete
component of genetic material tocreate life?

(01:31:18):
Men do not, but women havealways 46 chromosomes in their
over every egg at all times.
Okay, let me show you thebiology of that.
You'll be astounded at whatyour ovaries, what's in the
kernels of your ovaries, andyou'll be hearing, oh, you'll be

(01:31:39):
hearing and fertilization in anauthentic way.
We'll talk about alteredstates.
We'll talk about a new a newmodel of care, the quantum model
of care.
All right.
I mean, to me, the holisticmodel of care has at some level
let us go, you know.
The things that we were sohappy for, midwives, they're

(01:32:03):
gonna work for us.
This is us for midwives, hasn'treally happened.
And we have to face that.
All right.
And um let's talk about it.
What what do we do?
Uh, how do we how do wepractice without the medical
model jumping down your back?

(01:32:24):
All right.
Well, we'll talk about privatemembership associations where
you have a private membershipassociation and you have private
clients that you work withoutside of the public.
That's totally legal, allright, and lawful.
Okay.
Um, we have things that whatelse do we talk about?

(01:32:44):
Oh my gosh, we talk about somany things in our doula class
that that you would really loveand you would really love to
know.
And women tell me it transformstheir look outlook on birth.

Angela (01:32:54):
So not your average doula training program.

Whapio (01:32:58):
All right, but it might be your mother's.
All right, so or or your greatgrandma's, okay?
I love that.
Me too.
All right, and then we have ourmonetries program, and you can
enter that at any given time.
All right, it's uh mostly uh ontape, on live video on tape,

(01:33:20):
all right.
Uh I should say live Zoom.
That's what it is.
Okay.
And we have in it uh somereally cool stuff.
We'd have the bleeding andbreathing put in it.
We have um uh part onehomeopathy class, four days.
Uh, I am offering homeopathy uhbecause I know it's the

(01:33:42):
medicine of the future, and Iknow we are poised on that place
where it's all of a sudden it'sgonna happen.
So get in on it now, get yourremedies before they become
illegal, all right?
I I mean, just you know, thingslike that because there's gonna
be a fight.
You know, the medical modeldoes not want to see homeopathy.

(01:34:04):
And they anytime you try totalk about it, the medical model
is right there to say it isineffective and so on and so
forth.
Okay, but it is the medicine ofthe future.
So I'm offering a four-dayclass, which is for moms and the
the childbirth continuum, allright, pregnancy birth,
postpartum, and that's afour-day program.

(01:34:26):
And then I'm offering a act amonth later, I'm doing the next,
I'm doing part two, which is umfor homeopathics for
consultation, where we'll talkabout pharmacy, we'll talk about
how to use your homeopathicremedies, we'll talk about
constitutional protections,organopathic uh ideas, you know,

(01:34:48):
the miasms, you know, ancestraluh things that are going on.
My we call it miasmatically,okay.
So that we have eight days,we'll have eight days, four
coming up, and four, I think arein January.
All right.
So uh, and you'll get acertificate of uh as a

(01:35:08):
consultant, all right.
I cannot give you a certificateto practice anything.
I can't give you a certificateto practice midwifery, please
don't, all right.
But I can give you acertificate to consult because
that word is not co-opted by themedical model right now.
You can consult with someone aslong as you don't make their
decisions for them.

(01:35:28):
Oh, I get so tired of hearingthat, but you have to hear it.
That will keep you safe, allright.
So um the Monetrice program,you can enter in ever at any
time, all right.
Uh we have a program in there.
All of these in programs areembedded.
Uh, two days on navigating ahospital birth.
Everyone deserves a good birthin a hospital or home or

(01:35:51):
wherever.
Uh, Jess does an amazing classwith that, and it's also
intuitive interventions.
When do we intervene, really?
What's the first thing we dowhen something is a variation of
normal?
For me, it's give it to themom.
Moms are so adept at handlingthings much more easily and

(01:36:12):
readily.
If the system or the midwifestands back and just lets them,
I mean, if you're having ahemorrhage, obviously we're
gonna, you know, I'm not talkingabout that, but you know, if
you're having a pre-long,prolonged labor, whatever,
whatever, we're putting it backin your hands.
It works.
Intuitive interventions.
I love it.
Um, we have uh, oh, I don'tknow, a couple of other things

(01:36:37):
for you in the Monetriceprogram, but basically you will
have uh an expanded uh andelevated body of knowledge, all
right?
That uh the that the ordinarydoula doesn't have, okay.
And um moms will choose youbecause you have that ability to

(01:36:58):
work with them through thewhole pregnancy.
Doulas do not.
This is where doulas are losingout.
Some many women want somebodythere from the beginning, all
right.
And oftentimes it's not yourmidwife because she's got she's
busy, but it's the and she has alicense in many cases, okay?

(01:37:18):
So she doesn't really have timeto do a lot of the things that
you would like to do, all right?
She has you as her investment,you are her invested person.
Uh uh, and and uh wait till youhear what I have to say about
money uh is really good.
Should I tell you now?
Sure.

(01:37:38):
All right, so first of all, Ifeel like uh money is there's
plenty of money.
All right.
You may think, oh yeah, for youor whatever, but I'm telling
you right now, ask and you shallreceive.
This is a a great person oncesaid that, and how true it is,

(01:37:59):
okay.
And we should be doing a classon how to uh you know, receive,
but because it's out there andalong with cars and
refrigerators and all kinds ofstuff that you might want or
need.
It's out there, it's knowinghow to access it, access it,
okay.
All right, what was I gonnatell you?
Money, all right.

(01:38:20):
So um what I say is this chargewhat you're worth.
All right, you charge whatyou're worth.
You have every right to dothat, charge what you're worth
and give the rest away.
Now, what I mean with that isdon't give everything away, but

(01:38:43):
give away.
You see, because any pro anybusiness or group or anything
that doesn't have uh uh anoutlet or a potential for pro
bono, in other words, we havethings to give away, they're not
gonna succeed.
Okay, so have things that youcan give away.
Your community you want yourcommunity to support you as a

(01:39:06):
doula, a birthkeeper, amonetrice, a midwife, a doctor,
have something to give inreturn.
All right.
What I used to give away are uhplacenta readings, all right?
Oh, yeah, you learn in ourdoula class we talk about
placentas a lot and placentareadings.
I believe every communityshould have a placenta reader.

(01:39:27):
I I always did placentareadings as a gift.
I did ninja midwifery and ninjahomeopathy.
I did ninja homeopathy.
I would do a three-minuteconsult with you, and then I
would give you a remedy.
All right.
A ninja can make a decision inthree seconds, but we're gonna
go to three minutes, all right?
And I'll offer you a remedy.

(01:39:49):
Unless I really don't see it,and we have to do five minutes,
but you know, all right.
Um, so and and what else?
I did that, and I used to domediation, and if you want to
put another skill or tool inyour basket, become a mediator,
all right.
It's amazing, it's verystraight, it's very

(01:40:11):
forward-thinking, just like thethe don't you know uh don't make
any decisions for anyone, okay?
The same thing goes when you'rea mediator, you do not create
the solution, you help twopeople or two businesses or two
whatever, you know, you helpthem find a solution themselves.

(01:40:35):
I love mediation, and I used tooffer mediations for ten
dollars.
One day I was at a coffee shopand I was waiting in line, and
the woman in front of me uh wastalking to somebody about how
she had just finished theirmediation, and it would have and
and it was so expensive.
The lawyers were so expensive,and I thought that's what a

(01:40:58):
community needs, mediation, youknow, that is not in the hands
of lawyers, all you know,because then they can charge,
you know, like $125 an hour andthings like that.
So I wanted to give to mycommunity back, okay.
So I did mediations, I didninja homeopathy, and I did

(01:41:18):
placenta readings.
And my community was very happyto support me.
All right.
So ask for what you're worthand then have something to give
away.
And I don't mean all of it,give it all away.
I I mean, you know, givesomething in kind away.
And um money well, just believethat you deserve money because

(01:41:42):
you do, and especially if you'redoing something to up-level
humanity in the birthing realm,all right.
Um, it's trust it.
You have to trust that it'llcome.
Don't hope for it, becausehoping for it means that you're
pretty clear you don't have it,okay?
Because it's already there,it's already done.
We talk about thesemetaphysical things in our

(01:42:05):
wisdom keeping.
It really does transform aperson's life.
All right.
This I mean, this is whatpeople tell me.
And it's not, it's it's justthat now they see it.
They always knew it, now theysee it.
You know.

Angela (01:42:22):
Well, I can definitely testify to that because I feel
very transformed.
I've been in your program, theyour year-long birthkeeper
program since February, and allof these things that you're
talking about have really openedmy eyes and just meant so much
to me.
And just like putting languageto what I was feeling almost,

(01:42:44):
you know, through all of thesethings.
And yeah, all of the differentsections, the homeopathy, the
wisdom keeping, the the yeah,birth knowledge.
It's just really been soeye-opening and transformative
for me to go through.
And still, because it's notover yet, I don't know.
It's just it's been amazing.
And I really thank you so muchfor sharing all of your amazing

(01:43:07):
wisdom that you you knowcollected over these years.
It's it's so special and andwomen need to hear the things
that you're talking about.

Whapio (01:43:16):
Thanks, Angela.
That was really nice and veryaffirming.
And I always want to berelevant.
You know, I'm kind of here onthis planet for the evolution.
I feel like we have such anevolution in store for us.
If we could just get it, youknow what I mean?
The magnitude of everything andup-level everything.

(01:43:37):
Whoa, I'm here to, I like to bearound, you know.
Um, but if I'm not relevantanymore, I'm ready to go.
You know, that's that's a wholeother thing, too.
But um, yeah, I think that Iwell, thank you for saying all
that.
That's very affirming for me tohear.
Okay.

Angela (01:43:58):
You are so relevant.
And it was like a breath offresh air almost when I had
discovered you after goingthrough some of the more
dogmatic stuff, like with theFreebird Society, to then come
and find your program.
It's just it's everything thatI was originally looking for.
I just feel rejuvenated andready to really show up for
women.
And I also love how you sharedabout something to give because

(01:44:22):
I'm not in this for the money,I'm in this for the
transformation.
I feel very called to doing allof this.
And yeah, I just I'm sothankful to have found you.

Whapio (01:44:35):
Um I'm so thankful for you, all right, because you are
actively doing what we'resaying, and that is just part of
the web, another strand of theweb, another strand of the web.
And you know, one of the one ofthe most amazing things in
nature is a spider's web.
How a spider can spin that weband know how not to get caught

(01:44:59):
in it themselves, okay, and howto walk through that.
So um, so yeah, I see this theweb is little little dots or you
know, on the web.
That's us.

Angela (01:45:13):
Well, thank you for for your time.
I really appreciate you sharingall that you did.
It means a lot to me.

Whapio (01:45:19):
Thank you for having me, because that means a lot to me
too.
So we're sitting in the sameplace.
We are having, just for thegeneral populace to know, that
we are having cohort seven starton March 1st.
I won't be in it much, okay.
In fact, I'm I'm sort ofsemi-retiring, okay.
So I I'm not gonna be able to.

(01:45:41):
I'll show up every now andthen, but I can't hold the
cohort anymore.
You know, I'll be doing someshorter programs and doulas and
what and whatnot.
So um, yeah, please visit us atthe Matrona.

Angela (01:45:55):
Uh yeah, I will include all of your information in the
show notes so everybody can findyou and all of the amazing
things that you do.
And I'm sure Jess is soincredible to have found her,
also, by the way.
After every I absolutely loveher.
And yeah, I'm sure she'll do anincredible job holding this
container that you've created.

Whapio (01:46:15):
Well, a shout out then to Kote, who is uh our assistant
director.
Oh, I love Kote so much.
Um she is a doula in theChicago area.
She has this beautiful placentaart.
Um, we just did a afternoonlooking at that.

(01:46:36):
Anyway, so that's the three ofus.
So um Kote, Jess, and myself.
All right, we were the Matrona.

Angela (01:46:46):
Before you go, I just want to remind you, I have a ton
of resources for pregnancy andbirth.
If you're pregnant, whetheryou're a first-time mom or if
this is your fifth baby, I wantyou to check out the show notes
because I have some freetrainings and free downloads
that you can sign up for, aswell as the link to access My
Labor of Love, a comprehensive,self-paced online childbirth

(01:47:08):
education course.
I created this coursespecifically for moms who don't
want to be told what to do,regardless of where you're
birthing or who you're birthingwith.
And I'd honestly love to teachyou everything that I know so
that you can prepare for anautonomous birth experience and
prepare to step into your roleas the leader of your birth
journey.

(01:47:29):
So, click to the show notes,check out all of those links,
and if you ever have anyquestions, feel free to DM me at
my mainbirth over on Instagram.

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