Becca Tarnas, PhD - The Imaginal Realm: Astrology, Mythology, and Middle Earth - Mythic

Episode Transcript
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Boston (00:18):
My guest today is the brilliantly insightful,
creative and wise, Becca Tarnas.
Becca is an adjunct professor at bothPacifica Graduate Institute and the
California Institute of Integral Studies.
She is an astrological counselor, writer.
And artist, and her love of JRRTolkien's Middle Earth knows no bounds.

(00:41):
If you're a Lord of the ringsfan, this episode is for you.
I have all kinds of feelingsabout this interview.
We recorded it in Decemberof 2021, almost a year ago.
That means some of Becca'sastrological forecasts are outdated.
And I'm sorry, I didn't get this interviewup in time for optimum relevance.

(01:06):
Still it's a wonderful conversationand well-worth sharing now.
And the forecast are onlya small fraction of it.
And it's interesting to considerthem in the context of all that's
happened over the last 10 months.
What we're going to hit on in thisconversation is the intersection
of astrology and mythology.

(01:26):
And we're going to look at themyths of Persephone and Demeter,
and Hades, and Eros and Psyche.
And then the second part of the interviewreally gonna get into Lord of the
Rings and what is the Imaginal Realm.
And I'm going to stop talkingnow and let's get into Becca.

(01:52):
Becca, thank you so much forjoining me for this conversation.
I am delighted to have you here.
And you are the first astrologer I haveinterviewed for the mythic podcast.
Will you share your origin story with us?

Becca (02:08):
I always have to start by saying I'm a second generation astrologer
and that my father's an astrologer.
He started working with astrology inthe 1970s at Esalen Institute when he
was doing research with Stanislav Grofon psychedelic healing modalities and

(02:29):
they encountered astrology as a way to.
Basically understand the kind ofexperience that someone was going to have.
They had been trying to figure outwhy there was such variability with
psychedelic experiences betweenpeople, between sessions and none of
the psychological tests that, thatthey were applying were illuminating.

(02:52):
It was a big mystery at the time.
And someone suggested a, anastrologer named suggested, have
you tried transit astrology?
And so they tried it out and they realizedthat it illuminated the experiences
in a way that nothing else was.
So my father threw himself intostudying astrology and looking at his

(03:17):
own transits and studying the chartsand transits of everyone in the Esalen
community and over 30 years builtup a very large body of research.
And so this was the millieu I wasgrowing up in and the astrological
language was used in my household,but it wasn't taught to me.

(03:39):
Anytime that I had astrologycome more directly into my
life, it was my direct asking.
So I think I was six years old andI asked for a reading and I remember
that my dad was translating what theplanetary archetypes or to me using
mythic language, because I loved myth.
I was deeply steeped in a number ofdifferent mythologies and pantheons.

(04:03):
And so that was a languagethat made sense to me.
but I never thought that my path wouldlead toward being an astrologer at all.
I was.
Going through undergrad, I was a theatermajor, really engaged in performance.
I was an environmental studies doublemajor because I had become really invested

(04:24):
in understanding the ecological crisis.
How did we get here?
And yet through an interesting seriesof events, I was drawn back first to
my father's work and then being reallycompelled by his students and decided
that this was something I wantedto understand and wanted to learn.
And as I began to pick it up, I realizedit came quite naturally to me, probably

(04:49):
because I had grown up in that millieuof hearing the language spoken and even
getting the emotional resonance off,when my parents would talk about, oh,
he has a Saturn-Pluto transit versus,oh, he's going through a Jupiter
Uranus transit like that, just set in.
And, so over the last decade, it'sreally become one of the central focuses

(05:13):
of my work and, working as a counselingastrologer or working as a teacher and
as a continuing student as well, I'mexcited to keep learning new techniques
and modalities and branches of astrology.
So as much as I'm in a teachercounselor role, that I'm also, I
think always going to be a student.

(05:34):
So that's some of my astrologicalbackground and story.

Boston (05:38):
you never said his name.
Your father is Richard Tarnas.
created the, philosophy, cosmologyand consciousness program at CIIS.
Is he still on faculty there?

Becca (05:49):
He is still on faculty there.
He's been slowly over the lastseveral years, decreasing his teaching
because he is orienting more towardwriting several books that he's
still wanting to bring forward.
He wrote two big books, Passion of theWestern Mind and Cosmos and Psyche.
And he has a few others in the works.

(06:09):
So he's in a process of transitioningmore from teaching into writing.
And I know that's where hispassion really lies right now.

Boston (06:17):
And you are on faculty at Pacifica Graduate Institute.

Becca (06:22):
I'm an adjunct there.
Yeah.
I teach as an adjunct, both atPacifica and at CIIS right now.
So wearing multiple hats betweeninstitutions and getting to
teach a variety of classes ineach place, which is wonderful.

Boston (06:37):
What an exciting place to stand in the world, getting to do counseling
psychology, be in the educational realmwith these, these schools that are doing
such extraordinary work And I'm curiousabout what this looks like from here.
You mentioned, when you were a childand being very engaged in myth before
astrology came along, so mythologygave you a context for astrology and

(07:02):
that's what happened to me as well.
The way I think of it as this, you haveall of the mathematics, the go into the
calculations of astrology, but then youalso have this imaginal component of
astrology, which is stories in the sky.
And somehow these things come together.

(07:23):
What does that look like to you?

Becca (07:27):
I come back to the word astrology, Astro logos.
It's the language of the stars.
And as astrology was initially beingdeveloped, it was a means to interpret
and understand the will of the God.
So the stars, the night sky was seento be like a, almost like a tablet on

(07:56):
which the will of the gods was expressed.
And it was the task of astrologers andof priests and priestesses, to be able
to interpret that, to understand what isthe gods' intent for humanity, and then
how can we best participate in that?

(08:17):
That's the importance ofbeing able to interpret it.
So as far as my understanding goes,the planets, for example, which we have
named after gods-- Venus, Mars, Jupiter,Saturn, these are named after the gods.
The Greco- Roman names for them.
But of course there are many names forthe planets, from multiple cultures

(08:41):
around the world, and we can see themeanings associated with the planets
and how they are expressed in a varietyof ways through different mythic
pantheons in a variety of cultures.
So my understanding is that the planetsthemselves were never seen as gods they're

(09:02):
seen as the seat of the gods, like thephysical correlate, but not Like when
we look at the planet Venus, that isVenus completely as a goddess, it's more
like the goddess Venus is expressingthrough the physical planet Venus.
There's a correlation between them.

(09:24):
And it's a body that is specialto her and through which her will
is expressed and that in that way,the myth and the astrology are very
related, but the astrology is almostlike a space for translation space
for interpretation and communicationbetween human beings and the gods.

Boston (09:46):
That's beautiful.
I've never heard it expressed that way.
The planets as the seat ofthe gods If you were giving.
An astrological reading a transit reading,how might you translate an astrological
configuration into a mythic story?

Becca (10:07):
There's a really great example that's in the sky right
now and that's going to be inthe sky for the next several, not
just weeks, but actually months.
It's a rare combinationto have for this long.
So at the moment in December of2021, Venus has ingressed into

(10:27):
the sign of Capricorn and iscurrently in a conjunction or
right next to the planet Pluto.
So where to look up, we wouldneed a telescope to see Pluto,
but if we were to look up.
At the night sky, we would see Venusand Pluto seemingly next to each
other in the sky, even though Plutois so much further away than Venus.

(10:48):
It's like at the new moon, for example,the sun and the moon are in the same
place in the sky, but we know they'renot actually next to each other.
They just appear next to each other.
So that's what a conjunction is.
And Venus.
In terms of the astrological, meaningrelates to love, to beauty, to attraction,

(11:11):
desire, sensuality, sexuality, pleasure.
The side that relates to beauty is alsoconnected to aesthetics, to style, to the
arts, all forms of artistic creativity.
Painting, drawing,dance, music, sculpture.
Venus oversees the wholedomain of the arts.

(11:33):
So that's Venus.
And then Pluto is the archetypethat's related to the depths and the
underworld and intensities and extremes.
It's related to the death-rebirth mystery.
It's destruction and creation.
It's the elemental powers of nature.
It's instinctual.

(11:54):
It's libidinal.
And Pluto has a special relationshipto the underground, the underworld
in a mythic sense, a religious sense,but also like the urban underworld,
the criminal underworld, the sexualunderworld, any domain where we
think of a kind of underbelly.
And when Venus and Pluto are combinedas archetypal principles, that tends

(12:19):
to manifest whether in a birth chartor in terms of a personal trends
that were in this case at the worldtransit in terms of deep, intense,
Romantic relational sexual dynamics.
There can be a very beautiful depth to it.
The capacity to be transformed by love,to be transmuted by love, but also to

(12:43):
be destroyed by love and by sexuality.
There's a whole side of Venus-Plutothat's around the edgy and
the taboo and the dangerous.
And so there can be a connection tosexual transgression and assault, and
really the darker sides of sexuality,the intensely problematic sides.

(13:07):
And so this alignment of Venus and Plutois actually going to be in the sky for
several weeks because Venus is aboutto turn retrograde, meaning It's going
to be lingering in the same area of skyfor much longer than it normally would.
And then appearing to move backwardscompared to the motion that's usually

(13:28):
moving in and then moving forward again.
And so it's just passing back andforth with Pluto, making a very
long conjunction between the two.
Usually Venus would just pass by.
It would be, we would experience thatfor about 10 days in the collective.
This is months of it.
And of course we could look interms of certain world events

(13:49):
that are unfolding right now.
There's a big trial happeningat the moment looking at sex
trafficking and so forth.
So it's bubbling up in the collective.
People can probably identify thisin terms of their personal lives
too, in a positive way as well.
There's a beautiful side of Venus-Plutothat has to do with that depth and

(14:09):
rawness that we can bring forward inlove, in relationship, in sexuality.
So that's another illuminationof the astrological side.
How would we relate to that mythically?
One beautiful mythic example ofVenus-Pluto is the Persphone-Hades myth.
And there's a number ofdifferent ways to read this myth.

(14:32):
One way that we can read that myth isthat Persphone, who's a kind of beautiful
Venusian maiden figure is abducted againsther will and taken into Hades' underworld.
And in that way, it isa kind of rape story.
There's another way of interpretingit as well, where Persephone may be

(14:55):
The willing initiate wanting to bebrought into the sexual underworld as
a way to actually fully flower as awoman, as a goddess, as a fertility
goddess-- being brought into that space.
And what is so profound about thatmyth and why I tend to lean toward this

(15:19):
other interpretation is because shewillingly eats the pomegranate seeds.
She eats six pomegranate seeds,the fruit of the underworld, and
that guarantees that she will comeback for six months of the year.
Every year.
This myth is mapped onto our seasons.
When Persphone is in the upper worldwith her mother Demeter, that's when it's

(15:42):
spring and summer, then she makes herdescent into the underworld in the autumn
and spends the winter there with Hades.
And she becomes Queen of the Underworld.
She's crowned through that experienceand that is a Venus-Pluto story.
And a lot of people born with Venus-Plutocan feel a sense of relationship to it.
Whether that's the more problematicinterpretation-- the abduction,

(16:08):
the rape, there can be a feeling ofidentification with that, of course.
And then also there can be anidentification with what it means to
really own the power of the sexualunderworld and to become queen of that.
So that's one particular mythicinterpretation of the Venus-Pluto dynamic.

(16:30):
Another that I would look to in termsof fairytale, it's a similar archetypal
pattern, but a much later story isthe Beauty in the Beast fairytale.
Very similar to the Hades-Persephonemyth, but also very different.
And we can see the beast as areflection of Pluto, of the intense

(16:52):
animalistic instinctual libido.
And then Belle beauty as Venus and inthey're coming together, we can also
recognize how both parts live withinus and the beast can be beautiful
and the beauty can be beastly.
So these are some of the themesmythically, and in terms of fairytales

(17:15):
that might come up, but even asmetaphors during a Venus-Pluto at a time.
So I hope that helps answer the questionthat you've brought forward there.

Boston (17:26):
The story that is rising from me right now is Cupid and Psyche, which
also shares so many elements of Beautyand the Beast and the Persphone myth.
And when Psyche, in this case at thebehest of Venus, Venus sends psyche

(17:47):
into the underworld to retrieve thebeauty from did I get that right?
So Venus sends psyche to the underworld toget the breadth of beauty from Persephone
and she lingers and gets stuck down there.
I'm trying to remember how she gets outof the underworld that she it's, it's not

(18:09):
Hermes coming to get her, or is it, it isHermes coming to get her Cupid intervenes
and says and says, I want to marry her.
And with his help with Hermes help, hecomes in, brings her back to Olympus.

Becca (18:24):
In so many of the Venus-Pluto type myths, hermes is the one who intervenes.
So in the Hades-Persphone myth,Hermes comes at Demeter's behest,
and actually a Zeus's behest becauseDemeter is destroying the earth,

(18:45):
basically searching for her daughter.
So Hermes is the only onewho can traverse between the
upper, middle, and underworlds.
So Hermes goes into the Underworldand retrieves Persephone.
We see that in the myth you justbrought up of Psyche and Eros.
We also see it in the myth ofOrpheus and Eurydice, another lovers

(19:10):
descent into the underworld, andthere too Hermes is the mediator.
And interestingly at the end ofDecember, Mercury will conjoin, Venus
and Pluto in a triple conjunction.
So that myth is actually playingout in the sky in a matter of weeks.
I was recently doing a podcast withthe astrologers, Austin Copic and

(19:32):
Chris Brennan, and Austin Copicsaid that Hermes or Mercury is
the first relationship counselor.
And I thought that was such abrilliant way of putting it.
Sometimes you need to talk it out,which is what Hermes helps us do.

Boston (19:45):
It strikes me how many different ways the imagination
can go with these stories.
When you were describing the storyof Persephone and these two different
perspectives, one where Persephone hasno agency, the abduction version, and
then another where there might be moreto the story which gives Persephone

(20:06):
agency, something the Greeks were notsuper down on was women having agency.
One of the things that seems to behappening right now with the work
of authors like Natalie Haynes and,
Madeline Miller, they'rereclaiming these female characters.
Madeline Miller's Circebook is just phenomenal.

(20:30):
They're reclaiming these charactersand looking at the world through their
eyes, fleshing out the myths from thisunappreciated or unviewed perspective.
And that's maybe something thatwe're doing as a culture right now.
What do you make of what seems to be aRenaissance of the power of women right

(20:52):
now, while also maybe a dissolutionof gender the way we've known it?

Becca (20:58):
That's a really interesting question.
And there's a whole variety ofways I feel compelled to answer it.
It very much just feels connected to thegreat rebalancing that we're in right now.
And like any rebalancing, there'salways a potential to go too

(21:18):
far in the opposite direction.
What Jung called an enantiodromia whereyou're so extremely in one side, then
you intensely go into the opposite.
So with patriarchy being so dominantfor so long, there can be intense switch
into feminism that doesn't make spacefor men's experience or men's feelings.

(21:42):
And ultimately, I think we needan equal balancing to play out in
terms of gender, in terms of racerelations, in so many different areas.
Where I think we have to go intothe extreme first in order to figure
out what is a righteous balance.
And in a lot of those areas we'renowhere near that, but this retelling

(22:07):
of different stories from theperspective --Often it is the female
perspective and often the vilified afemale of what is going on for her.
I think that's a really just beautifulreclamation of what has been oppressed.
What's been denied, what has beenrelegated to the shadow, for example.

(22:33):
And I think it speaks to the largerculture's rebalancing in terms of a
collective integration of the shadow inthat Jungian sense because what we realize
when we do our own psychological workand we face the shadow within us and we
integrate it is we actually recognize thatthe shadow isn't even the bad parts of us.

(22:56):
We shouldn't have an equation betweenthe shadow and evil, but when you
go into the shadow and you recognizewhat you're afraid of or what you've
been denying or what you've beencalling evil, then you can start
to realize it for what it truly is.
I think that this is happening ata collective level in terms of our
myths and in terms of our stories.

(23:17):
Let's see it from the otherside and retell the same story,
but in a more balanced way.
I think what we're moving towards interms of storytelling is-- We're moving
maybe a way from the hero-villainduality, which has been mapped onto, to a

(23:39):
certain extent, the male-female duality.
Not always, but we can probably pullup a bunch of myths and fairytales
and stories that do that exact thing.

Boston (23:49):
I can find a few.
Yeah.

Becca (23:51):
Yeah, there's a good number that are out there.
And as we break that down, we stillhave to, if someone is a storyteller,
we still have to tell compellingstories where there's challenge
and there's adversity, but maybe itdoesn't have to be a person or villain.
Maybe it's something within us.

(24:11):
I was really compelled by theQueen's Gambit, the series that came
out last year, and it's based ona wonderful book of the same name.
They did a really good job by the wayof translating the book into the series.
And what I love about that,there's so much, I love about
that story, but the villain or theadversary is within the heroine.

(24:37):
She has to overcome herselfand her own challenges.
No one outside of her isputting up these blocks.
Her own struggle with addiction isactually far more of a challenge
than her being a woman in theman's world of chess in the 1960s.
And I think that was a reallybrilliant way of telling that story,

(24:57):
because it could have been told wherethe patriarchal structures are her
main challenge, but rather it's theinternal demons that she has to face.
And I feel like that's maybe wherestorytelling is moving more and more,
less duality and splitting off and moreof an owning of those challenges and
the adversity and the shadow within.

Boston (25:21):
Oh, I hope you're right.
It makes the hero's journey and internalshamanic awakening, an integration
experience, instead of a go get thetreasure or bring it back, be celebrated
which we just see again and again,and it's of course, really compelling.
That's a, there's a reason that has workedso well for so long, but I find that so

(25:45):
much more interesting and then we getto look for the stories that we resonate
with to find our own shadow pieces.
It's funny, especially with fantasyand less science fiction, but fantasy
stories like Lord of the Rings.
the journey to Mordor feels likea journey into the most hidden

(26:06):
part of the self where Frodofinally has to confront addiction.
and he's actually savedby an even darker part.
You know, Gollum is his, is hisdark mirror image who rescues him
by taking the ring and his finger.

(26:27):
that is an inner journey asmuch as it is an outer journey.
You wrote your dissertationon Lord of the Rings.

Becca (26:37):
I did.
Yes.
Comparing it to Jung's Red Book,

Boston (26:41):
Will you tell me about encountering Lord of
the Rings for the first time?

Becca (26:47):
Oh, sure.

Boston (26:48):
Or it's or Tolkien for the first time.

Becca (26:50):
Yeah.
My first encounter with Tolkien was whenI was nine years old and my teacher,
my grade school teacher, I went to aWaldorf school, was reading the Hobbit
out loud to us a little bit every day.
I think it was maybe like achapter at lunch each day.
And I was so compelled by this story.

(27:15):
It wasn't just the actual plot ofBilbo and the dwarves and Gandalf
the wizard making the journey to thelonely mountain to confront the dragon.
It's an, it's the hero'sjourney all over again.
That I was delighted by, butactually what really stuck with me
as a nine-year-old was Middle Earthwere the landscapes and the names,

(27:40):
especially the names of differentparts of the landscape or Middle Earth.
So Rivendale and Mirkwood and Dale,and Esgaroth, and Erebor, like these
names just rung through my soul.
And I felt like I've been here before.

(28:02):
This is familiar, and there was a deepsense of connection and knowing, and
being able to actually see the world.
I had a, and still do avery active imagination.
But as a child, I was, I could seethe stories very distinctly that I was

(28:22):
reading or that were being told to me.
But there was something inparticular about this story and
Middle Earth that it did feel likeI could walk around in the world.
And so I came home and told mymom how much I loved this story.
And she said wait until youread The Lord of the Rings.

(28:44):
And so it took a few more years.
I was 13 when I started reading it.
My brother gave me my first copies and Iwas part of a mother-daughter book club at
the time that lasted for about five years.
And that was my contribution because wewould go around bringing different books.
And so I wanted to read The Fellowship ofthe Ring and that was my first exposure.

(29:06):
Actually got to read it in a fellowship.
Women and young girls, whichwas a great way to do it.
And the same thing happened-- I was inthe world and the timing was perfect.
I read it right before Peter Jackson'sfilms came out, so it was in the
collective zeitgeist, as well.
But I was so glad that I'd read it firstbecause I could see my own images of

(29:32):
the story and then was blown away whenI felt like certain parts of the film
just captured it just as I had seen it.
And for the next several years,Throughout my teens, I felt
like I was living in two worlds.
I had this normal teenage highschool experience, and then
overlaid on that was Middle Earth.

(29:55):
I When I look back at my journals from thetime that the handwriting looked Elvish.
I was just completely immersed innot just the story, but this world.
And so that was my introduction to it.
Yeah.
I haven't really gotten out.
I tried to at one point in my earlytwenties, but then graduate school came

(30:17):
along and I realized I could actuallystudy Tolkien in that academic context
and figure out what had happened tome and start studying the imagination
from that more analytical perspective.
But it all began with havingThe Hobbit read out loud to me
and feeling like I've been here.
I know this place.
I know these names.

Boston (30:38):
What do you think that we can learn from Tokien and Lord of the rings?
What's what does it offerthe world right now?

Becca (30:50):
The Lord of the Rings, which was published in the mid fifties,
has been applied so many times todifferent world situations and conflict.
When it first came out,the people reading.
It actually thought that Tolkien had basedit allegorically on the second world war.
And they said, no, I was actuallywriting it long before, and if it's

(31:12):
been affected by any war, it wasWorld War One, which he fought in.
And then since it's been appliedto understanding the Cold War.
It's been applied to understanding.
When the films came out, the secondbook is called the Two Towers and the
second film came out in 2002 after nineeleven and the Twin Towers falling.

(31:32):
And at that time, when people who didn'tknow the books were like, what is this?
What is this parallelthat's happening here?
And I think we can feel it again thesedays It's so applicable to any period
in history where we feel too small totake on the heaviness, the darkness,

(31:53):
the challenges that are before us.
For me, the greatest applicability isthe great challenge of climate change.
And how we as human beings, talk abouthaving to face the shadow, have ravaged
this earth and in the Lord of the Rings,what really distinguishes Sauron's

(32:15):
evil is his treatment of the Earth.
And there's this beautifully horrendousdescription when Frodo and Sam, the
little Hobbits are approaching Mordorfor the first time, guided by Gollum
and they see the tortured earthwhere nothing will ever grow again.

(32:39):
And this is evil's treatmentof the earth itself.
And we see a much smaller ravagingtaking place with the wizard Saruman on
the white wizard, Saruman, and Isengardwhere he takes what was once a fertile
land and rips down the trees, thenturns it into a kind of Middle Earth

(32:59):
version of the Industrial Revolution.
And so when I think that it'smost applicable for our time
there and what we're each beingasked to do is, what is our task?
What is our small task or the ringthat we're asked to carry in the face
of this insurmountable challenge.

(33:22):
And the other great wisdom that I thinkis so important-- and it comes back to
what we were talking about before in termsof the hero's journey, because so many
tellings of the hero's journey followone hero through this cyclical journey.
But what stands out about theLord of the rings is that it's a
heroes, plural journey that it's aFellowship, always acting together,

(33:48):
always supporting each other.
And.
When we start off, it'snot just Frodo by himself.
He is accompanied by Samand Merry and Pippin.
They get help from Tom Bombadil.
Then they encounter Strider,Aragorn, the fellowship is growing
finally at crescendos with thenine members of the fellowship.

(34:08):
But even when the fellowshipbreaks, no one is ever acting alone.
Frodo and Sam go off togetherand support each other.
The achievement of the ring questwouldn't be possible without the two
of them and Gollum acting in concert.
We see with the three hunters-- AragornLegolas and Gimli-- they're always

(34:29):
working together, even Gandalf who youwould think of as working on his own.
Whenever we see him, he's helping others.
He is organizing much larger factionsof people in this great struggle.
Even when he rides off to MinasTirith, he is accompanied by Pippin.

(34:51):
That's one of the things that we seethroughout the story ever acts alone.
And I think that's such animportant message for our time.
The age of heroes is over.
The age of individualleaders and saviors is over.
And it is now a time of I'm drawingon Jung in part for this-- It is a
time of taking on our own spiritualand ecological burden to be able to

(35:22):
face the challenges of this time.
We can't do it alone.
Not only can we not do it at.
We are not meant to do it alone.
This is part of what I think what we'reneeding to work out is how to relate
to each other and how to move throughthese times at the smallest scales,
with, within our families, within ourrelationships, within our institutions,

(35:45):
but then at the larger scales too.
The only way we're actually goingto do anything about the ecological
crisis and climate change really isthat nations figure out that these
borders are arbitrary and that, ofcourse it's a huge problem in itself,

(36:06):
but finally for humanity to wake upand realize we are on a globe and it
is round and that the only way throughthis is actually working together.
And I know I sound totallyidealistic when I say that, but
that's the hard lesson that's here.
Otherwise we face demise really.
And that might be what ourtask really is as being hospice

(36:28):
workers through this time as well.
So those are some of my thoughtson the applicability of the Lord
of the Rings to our current era.

Boston (36:37):
You've conjured so many thoughts and memories for me.
One thing, when you talked about havingone foot in each world, I, I went
through a period like that, myselfreading, not just Lord of the Rings,
but I was also reading a lot of morecontemporary fantasy, the Xanth novels.
And I remember flying from NewYork to San Antonio, Texas.

(37:01):
And as I looked down at the world,I saw the difference between natural
shapes, the way water flowed and theway forest flowed, and then the manmade
geometry with its circles and squares.
And it looked like a, it looked like acomputer motherboard was being built.

(37:23):
In the middle of an organic landscape.
It still looks that way to me.
But I remember the first time I saw it,it was creepy and disturbing and it seems
like something that has only continued andproliferated . And now looking back, you
know, that would have been the mid 1990s.
So before our technologicalworld that we're in today,

(37:46):
Another thing you made me think of isthe personal, the soulful inhabited
body and its immediate environments.
the place that I live, my house,my apartment, the community of my
building, the neighborhood around meand the ecology of this place and the
relationships among the people here.

(38:08):
And then on this other end of thespectrum, I'm in San Francisco.
You're in Nevada City, yesterday Iwas on Zoom with somebody in Australia
and somebody else in South Africa.
And so these two things arehappening simultaneously.
There's this global connectivitythat allows us to have an impact far

(38:31):
outside our immediate environment,but the importance of tending to both.
Not only are we called upon, we have thetools to participate locally and globally
in a, in a way that we never have before.

Becca (38:47):
Yeah.

Boston (38:48):
I like your idealism.
I am an idealist, but I haven't, butmy optimism has failed in recent times.
So hearing what's possiblethrough your eyes.
It speaks to my soul and I, I hope you'llkeep sharing it beyond this podcast
because I think we need that image.

Becca (39:11):
With the idealism and identifying it as that.
And when I say that it will take comingtogether and that kind of fellowship
and relationality to overcome thesechallenges, I say that like you with the
optimism failing, recognizing that isprobably impossible given how humanity is

(39:34):
treating itself, how we're treating eachother, how we took on the challenge of
this pandemic and it's come through, notas coming together in a global sense, even
though we're all going through the samething, but also in very different ways.
I think the pandemic has shown theintense inequality that was already

(39:58):
apparent, but it's made it even clearer.
And when we say we're all in thesame boat, it isn't true at all.
Some people have really cushy liferafts and other people have a scrap
of wood, but we're all in the same.
Maybe sea with that and Same storm.
It's a good metaphor.
So it's shown that inequality it's shownthe schisms and the divisions even more.

(40:24):
And so I speak my idealism so that wecan have a sense of what we could move
towards while simultaneously recognizingthat having the ideal be what is it that
the perfect, the enemy of the good, can bevery problematic, but an ideal or a vision

(40:46):
can at least help us move towards that.
Even if we never get there.
We can still have that informingour values and our decision.

Boston (40:56):
That just strikes me as a healthy way to live living toward a better world.
At least that gives us not just hope,but purpose and a sense of possibility.
None of us.
W what's the Gandalf quote orI wish I hadn't lived to see.
I wish I hadn't lived to see such times.

Becca (41:15):
Yeah, Frodo says I wish it may not have happened in my time.
And Gandalf says, so do allwho come to see such times.
But that is not for them to decide.
All we have to decide is what to dowith the time that has given to us.
That's been my mantra since I was13 years old, that none of us would

(41:37):
really choose these times, but.
What are we tasked totake on in this time?
And that is our free choice.
It's really important to rememberthat is our free agency to
choose how we spend this time.

Boston (41:53):
I'm also reminded of, and I, this is a, this can be
a dangerous way of thinking.
It is still in my mind that things canturn dark very quickly and they did.
It just seemed like a shadow dropped overthe Earth in 2016 and only got darker.

(42:16):
And sometimes the lightcomes just as quickly.
Things can seem to magically shiftpeople's moods shift the same way.
Sometimes I wake up in the morning andI'm like, I don't know why I feel great.
And there it is.
And then that can happenat a bigger level.
New technologies can emerge.
The magic bullet theory it's not a goodway to approach global problems, but, but

(42:42):
there are forces working in our favor.
At least I would like to believe that.

Becca (42:46):
There are people who are taking on these challenges and I always feel
so inspired by are you familiar withthe Bioneers conference with those
kinds of organizations and when you canbring together people who are actually
working on solutions creatively,imaginatively, with inspiration.

(43:11):
It brings new life intovery difficult spaces.
It's not just laying down andletting the world walk over you.
And that being able to, I think thiscomes back to, what is your ring to carry?
What is your task to take on in this time?

(43:32):
And that it's enough totake on your own task.
You don't have to take on all ofit, but by taking on something that
you really love, that you're reallypassionate about, that you think
will help meet these challenges.
I think that ripples out and doesinspire others to do the same thing.

(43:57):
And then there's a wholeorchestration around taking this on.
Yeah.

Boston (44:04):
To weave some of these threads together, how do you think
astrology can support us in this time?

Becca (44:13):
It can support us in a number of ways.

One (44:15):
it can give a context for what's unfolding in terms of understanding.
What are the archetypaldynamics that are at play?
When in history have we seen this before?
And when is it going to end?
So for example, 2020 there wasa triple conjunction of three
planets, Jupiter, Saturn, and Pluto.

(44:37):
And we can particularly focus inon the Saturn-Pluto conjunction
because historically every timeSaturn and Pluto have common to major
alignment, it has correlated withreally intense, significant crises
and contractions on the world stage.
So just looking at the 20th centuryor, over the last 120 years, World

(45:02):
War One started under a Saturn-Plutoalignment World War II started under
a Saturn-Pluto alignment, the VietnamWar and the Cold War both started
under Saturn-Pluto alignments.
Nine eleven happened under a Saturn-Plutoalignment, and now COVID happened
under a Saturn-Pluto alignment.
The day that the Saturn-Pluto conjunctionwas exact was literally the day after

(45:24):
the first COVID death was announced.

Boston (45:26):
Oh, my gosh.

Becca (45:27):
And so at the time, it, and I even remember seeing amongst astrologers
that like it wasn't as big as we wereanticipating when the exact alignment
happened, which is why astrologersshould use wider orbs and realize that
alignment was coming in beginning of2018 was intensifying through 2019.

(45:48):
We were already feelingthe vice grip coming in.
2020 hits the exact alignmentsJanuary 12th, and then Jupiter
comes in which magnifies ormakes bigger whatever it touches.
Those three were in a dancewith each other all year.
Jupiter, Saturn, pluto, veryrare, triple conjunction.
The only one we've had previous tothis on in the 20th century was.

(46:12):
In the 1980s.
It was came in 1980-81 and correlatedwith a lot of the contractions at that
time, economically the AIDS epidemicand certain other political conflicts
that were happening at that time.
Another kind of empowermentof conservatism.
So there's certainly parallelsbetween the earliest.

(46:34):
And 2020, there were a couple otherfactors that made 2020 even more
intense, even more significant, butwhat is actually happening right
now, Saturn and Pluto then in thatconjunction through this year as
well, not as tight as in 2020, butextending and ending finally this month.

(46:58):
There is I think going to be somefeeling of a shift as 2021 ends.
Now, Saturn-Pluto isn't theonly factor astrologically.
There's been a Saturn Uranus square.
This is another part of thedynamics that made 2020, especially
complex where Saturn- Uranusrelates more to sudden collapse--.

Boston (47:21):
Zoom picked this exact moment to completely cut out.
The app stopped.
And I had to disconnect and reconnect.
And fortunately Becca was still thereand this was particularly significant
given what becca was discussing.

Becca (47:41):
You still there?

Boston (47:42):
That's not disturbing at all.

Becca (47:47):
And I'm talking about Saturn-Uranus, which is like the
failure of technology which..
Yeah.
So Uranus relates to innovation,breakthrough, technology, and Saturn
tends to problematize what it touches.
It ends .It negates.
It blocks.
And something that we do see withSaturn-Uranus alignments is like the

(48:08):
sudden interruption of technologyor sudden collapses of structures
or infrastructure issues as well.
A great example of that was in February,the unexpected freeze that happened.
Uranus is the unexpected.
Saturn brings cold.
It brings winter.
The unexpected freeze and Texas whereso many people's homes the pipes burst.

(48:32):
That's a great, unfortunate exampleof Saturn Uranus, where it's
literal infrastructure breakingdue to an unexpected problem.
That's all very Saturn-Uranus.
Where I was going with that as ourrecording demonstrated the exact thing I
was talking about, is we are going to bein a Saturn-Uranus square into about 2023.

(48:56):
So I think we are going to be continuingto struggle with these breaks, these
schisms, the problematic side ofinnovation, the distrust of technology.
So many different themesthat can come up around that.
I'm just looping back toyour question around how does
astrology help us with this?
And I'm speaking on the one handto the problematic side, where

(49:18):
it does give us a context forwhen things are really difficult.
It also gives us a sense of whenthose things can come to an end,
the Saturn-Pluto conjunction thatcorrelated with the onset of the
pandemic will be ending this month.
Saturn Uranus will end in 2023, butwe also have some other kinds of

(49:40):
transits coming through next year, 2022.
There's going to be aJupiter Neptune conjunction.
Jupiter Neptune is like therichness of the imagination.
It's the wealth of mythology andspirituality and religion and celebrating
that, and finding a sense of joyin the transcendent, in the sacred.

(50:03):
That alignment is going tostart to come in January.
It's going to be really potentin March, April, May of 2022.
It's really going to be here forabout 14 months through next year.
And the way that I'm thinking aboutit is just like when you're having a
really difficult day or a really hardmaybe work week and you come home and

(50:29):
you have that hot tub waiting for you.
You get in the hot tub witha nice glass of wine, and the
stars are sparkling above you.
And it eases the aches.
It eases the pain.
It doesn't fix the problems you'rehaving at work or in your life, or what
might be collapsing or falling apart.
But it's a soothing balm and is able toprovide some healing or at least give you

(50:51):
that boost you need to go back out thereand face whatever it is you're facing.
That I think is what the JupiterNeptune alignment will be like for us.
At least, I'm really hoping soit's not going to fix the problems.
I don't think it's going to make thepandemic go away, but I think we are
going to get some kind of relief.
And then if we look a little furtherahead into 2024, there's going to

(51:14):
be a Jupiter Uranus conjunction andJupiter-Uranus does tend to correlate
with sudden unexpected breakthroughs,usually in a very positive sense,
where there is the sense of opening,a new possibility and rebirth on and a
kind of heralding of positive change.

(51:34):
And as you were saying before,those mornings where you just wake
up and things suddenly are better.
looking ahead at 2024 and knowingthere's going to be this Jupiter-Uranus
conjunction, I do think it holds thatpotential for that kind of breakthrough.
Going forward a little further, there areother challenging alignments that will
be coming forward, especially 2025-26,there's a Saturn-Neptune conjunction I

(51:57):
think my bring some grief--- melancholy.
There can be tremendous sadness thatcomes forward with Saturn Neptune.
But this is the human experience.
This is the earthly experience.
It's never over.
The story keeps changing and continuing,but in terms of getting some kind of
relief from what we've been through inthese last several years, I am looking

(52:19):
towards 2022 with that Jupiter Neptuneconjunction, and especially curious about
the Jupiter-Uranus alignment in 2024.
The astrologer, Matthew Stelzner,calls Jupiter-Uranus the thank the
Lord transit because that's oftenwhat people say when it comes around.
Oh, thank goodness.
We've come through this dark night.

Boston (52:42):
My understanding is that Uranus is associated very often with Prometheus.
And so this is from the heavens to man.
So new inventions, new ideas.
On the flip side, Uranus isnamed for Ouranos, the sky god.
So you have the revolution.
The Titans over the sky god.
Both of these are breakthroughsin civilization and possibility.

Becca (53:07):
Exactly.
And while we can see a really positiveside to that in terms of breakthrough and
change and awakening, not just in termsof technology or science or innovation,
but artistically and creatively, as well.
Uranus is that spark of insightthat can be applied to any area, to

(53:28):
writing, to film, to artistic forms.
And it can correlate with a kind ofa cultural Renaissance in some ways
where that energy sparks so manynew movements that will then carry
forward in a variety of forms thatreflect the other transits going on.

(53:50):
Something that Rick Tarnas writes.
my father writes in his book, Cosmos andPsyche about Jupiter-Uranus is that during
those periods, hidden births happen.
And so something can be started.
A significant meeting between twoindividuals or the beginning of a
project that will become somethingvery significant, but we don't

(54:16):
know it in the moment when theJupiter-Uranus alignment is happening.
In terms of significant meetings,the one that's at the top of my mind
right now is like Emerson met Thoreauunder a Jupiter-Uranus alignment.
And then we see everythingthat came forward.
But at the time it's just twoindividuals meeting and that is

(54:36):
the kind of hidden birth qualitythat Jupiter your on can have.
So whenever I see clients, for example,having a Jupiter-Uranus transit coming, I
will encourage them to take on the projector the endeavor that they've maybe been
holding off doing until the time is right.
Jupiter-Uranus alignments, especiallythe collective ones, that's the moment

(55:01):
to start that project or, publish thatbook or that piece, because it's going
to carry the energy of Jupiter-Uranus.
And we may not even know yet what itwill become, but it's been seeded then.
And that's, what's really important.
So anyone listening, if you're planningsomething for the future, just remember

(55:21):
2024 might be a really good time togive it that burst of creative energy.

Boston (55:27):
You said you wanted to talk about imagination and the imaginal.
What's what's present foryou in imagination right now.

Becca (55:36):
I feel like imagination in our culture is largely misunderstood, but
it stands behind so many of these themeswe've been discussing, around story,
around myth, around astrology, becauseimagination really is what we see
the world through, and typically in amodern mindset when we say, oh, that's

(56:03):
imaginary, we mean it's just been made up.
It's not real.
It's just been pulled from somewhere.
There's no basis in reality.
And in my studies of Tolkien and CarlJung and others such as James Hillman,
Henri Corban, and Sufi mysticism, and soforth, there's so much support for the

(56:27):
idea that imagination-- the Romantics,as well-- that imagination is this
extraordinary faculty of creativity thatisn't just simply making something up.
It's actually our means of accessor maybe a better way of putting
this is a co-creation with--with the divine imagination.

(56:51):
With the archetypal principles.
You can look at it through a variety oflenses, but I really see the imagination
as this interconnecting faculty that givesus the ability to draw in the archetypal
principles into creative manifestation.
The imagination is less somethingthat's fully in our agency.

(57:14):
And is more of an experience that wehave that's given to us, but that we
also participate in and co-create with,if we look at humans experiences that
he recorded in The Red Book, they are arecord of active imagination, fantasies
that were very clearly not being made up.

(57:35):
They were coming through him,but he's also engaging with them.
And based on that, we can also surmiselooking at Tolkien's writing process of
The Lord of the Rings he kept describingand letters that he felt like he was
discovering it rather than inventing it.
And the more he wrote, the more,it just simply came through him.

(57:58):
And a lot of authors and artists willdescribe the creative process this way,
that it isn't really them doing it.
They have the agency in terms of theart and the shaping of it, the craft.
But that one is actually tapping intoa visionary experience or an imaginal

(58:19):
immersion in what some would evenconsider it to be more of a place or
realm-- the imaginal realm-- or whatCorban calls the Mundus Imaginalis,
the world of the imagination.
And then coming back to what I wasdescribing before of my very immersive
experience of Middle Earth as achild, I think in some ways that

(58:42):
was entering into the imaginal realmor the Mundus imaginalis through
the lens that Tolkien crafted.
So he was the artist who shaped thecapacity to enter into that space.
But what that space is, is given life bysomething beyond the human being, whether
we call that God or the Divine, or simplythe sacred cosmos itself coming through.

(59:07):
But we have this capacity to enter intothis imaginal space, this kind of in
between realm between the physical realmand the more abstract realm of thought.
The imaginal exists inbetween them and forming both.
And maybe I'll just conclude thisthought with someone who's very much
informed my own thinking on imagination,drawing on the Romantics, Samuel Taylor

(59:32):
Coleridge, who delineated two types ofimagination, what he called the primary
imagination and the secondary imagination.
And his description of theprimary imagination is--
He says, 'The primary imagination I holdto be the living power and prime agent of

(59:54):
all human perception and as a repetitionin the finite mind of the eternal
act of creation, the Infinite I Am."
That's from the Biographica Literaria.
What he's saying there is that the primaryimagination is the power that informs
all our human perceptions of the world.

(01:00:16):
It's the latter part where he saysit's the repetition in the finite mind.
So in the human mortal mind ofthe eternal act of creation and
the infinite I Am, the Infinite IAm is God from this perspective.
It's divine creativity, butthe primary imagination is that

(01:00:37):
eternal act of creation repeatingin our own limited mind, and this
is what we call the imagination.
This is our perception of the world ofdivine creativity coming through us.
And then the secondaryimagination that he describes.
That's the part of us that takesthat primary vision, and is

(01:00:59):
actually able to turn it into art.
It recreates it recombines tobring forward the art, the stories,
the film, the paintings thathuman artists and authors create.
And so it's a working together of thesecondary and the primary imagination.
But from this perspective, ultimatelyall imaginative expression or creative

(01:01:23):
expression is a gift from the divine.
And that brings me to, to Tolkienagain, who says he's talking
about fantasy or the capacity tocreate through the imagination.
He says, "fantasy is andremains a human right.
For we are made.
Not only are we made, but we're madein the image and likeness of a maker.

(01:01:46):
Because we, from this perspective are madein the image of God and God is a creator.
Therefore it is our humanright to be creators as well."
So those are some of my thoughts onthe imagination and our relationship
to it, and how that can informmany of these different themes
that we've been talking about here.

Boston (01:02:06):
It's such a stunning model of imagination and creativity,
and this eternal questionof where do ideas come from?
Have you read Neil Gaiman's work at all?

Becca (01:02:17):
I have read some of it.
I haven't read everything that he'swritten, but I do actually plan
or intend to do that at some pointin my life because everything I've
read of his, I absolutely love.

Boston (01:02:30):
I've been listening to his audio book version of The Sandman
graphic novels or comic book series andDream the character and The Dreaming.
The space in for the primary imagination.
This imaginal realm orsomething in between.
It's the mediator between.

(01:02:52):
Wherever there's nothing and then wherehumans encounter an infinite number
of possibilities and interact witheach other in this shared imaginal.
It's funny.
I've read most of his work.
And I decided, oh, this man is channeling.
Something is working through him.
And then I took a Masterclass withhim, and he talks about his process

(01:03:15):
of combining one thing with another.
And it was much more mechanical,He described it as, "I made it up."
And I thought, but did you, and.
And I don't relate to that.
When I write a scene, when I writefiction very much is going inside.
What's the truth?

(01:03:36):
What's true about this?
And it does feel like Iam tapping into a place.
It feels like I'mlooking through a window.
If I can just get it clearenough to write down what I see.

Becca (01:03:49):
That's actually a metaphor that Tolkien uses in his essay on fairy
stories, where he talks about clearingthe window, getting a clear view.
And that's part of what fairystories offer us, is that
they clear the window for us.
Some authors are very aware of that.
Process as something comingthrough them like Ursula K.
Le Guin really had a strong sensethat the stories were moving

(01:04:13):
through her, were choosing her.
I think some of it is where theemphasis is put, and also I think
it's really important to listen toan author's description of, where
their ideas come from, how they do it.
Neil Gaiman's more maybeconstructed approach is-- that's
also just important to recognize.
I don't want to say that whatI'm describing in terms of the

(01:04:35):
imaginal is like the only waystories come through by any means.
Like Tolkien described histheory as sub creation.
It comes in two parts.
There's the imagination, which is whatI think we've been talking about here in
terms of Coleridge's primary imagination.
It's the images that, thatone sees or what you hear.

(01:04:58):
And then the second part, whichis just as important as the art.
So it's imagination plusart equals sub creation.
He calls it subcreation becausethis is as creation under God and
that we need to hone both crafts.
My emphasis on the imagination, is in partbecause I want to redeem what imagination

(01:05:22):
is in our culture and recognize thisagency beyond us, but I don't want to
lose sight of the art and how importantit is to put those different elements
together and to be conscious of howyou're holding different pieces of a
story or an artwork when crafting inthat way that we need both sides of it.
It makes me think actually of theword genius that, you know now

(01:05:46):
will describe a person as a genius.
Oh, he's a genius at scientific ortechnological development, or he's
a genius with words or with music,whereas before genius actually
referred to the spirit that seized you.
The spirit that moved through you.
And that really speaks to justa difference in worldview.
In a modern worldview, we don'thold space for such spirits.

(01:06:09):
And so we actually attribute it to theperson and then we're like, oh, he used
to be a genius, but he isn't anymore.
What happened there?
Maybe it's not down to the person.
Maybe it's down to the moment and we canlook at their transits and their chart
and what's coming through them at aparticular time where they do get seized.
And maybe that perspective can alsooffer some relief for the person who's

(01:06:31):
stuck with writer's block or creativeanxiety because it isn't the moment.
You just keep plugging away at it.
And you wait for the genius to seize you.
It's almost like cultivating arelationship rather than putting
pressure on yourself, which can bea different approach to creativity.

Boston (01:06:49):
For creatives, that's a strong argument for showing up at your
page every day, showing up at yourcraft every day so the genius has an
opportunity to seize you in motion.
There's nothing worse than gettingseized by the genius while you're
driving 80 miles an hour on the freeway.

Becca (01:07:07):
Absolutely.
yeah.
You need to have that voicerecorder, that little notebook in
your pocket to be able to catch it.
And whenever it is coming through.

Boston (01:07:16):
Do you have closing thoughts that you want to make
sure you share before we go?

Becca (01:07:21):
Well really, I would just love to thank you for holding this space
and this beautiful podcasts thatyou're creating and bringing forward.
It's an honor to get to be a part of it.
And I really just enjoyedthe dialogue that we've had.
I feel like we've gotten to touch onsome really rich and relevant subjects.

(01:07:42):
So thank you.
Thank you for creating that space.

Boston (01:07:45):
The honor is mine.
Thank you for being here and for peoplewho want to know more about you and more
about your work how could they find you?

Becca (01:07:55):
I have a website.
It's just simply my name,beccatarnas.com and that website
houses a lot of different things.
It has a lot of podcasts and videosand writings from over the years.
It also has a list of my upcoming events.
I'm always updating that assomething new comes into the docket.
I have a few different astrology events,talks, conferences coming up next year.

(01:08:20):
So that's all available there.
If anyone's wanting toconnect in with that.
And I am making a bit of a transitionin terms of my work right now.
I've been working as anastrological counselor for
quite a few years at this point.
And I'm starting to pivot andfocus more on writing and teaching.

(01:08:41):
I'm taking a step away fromthat, but that's also going to
give me space to bring forwarddifferent kinds of offerings.

Boston (01:08:49):
I cannot wait to see what offerings you bring forward.
Thank you

Becca (01:08:54):
Thank you.

Boston (01:08:54):
Your, care with this conversation.
And thank you for all the workyou're doing in the world.
This has been a pleasure.

Becca (01:09:01):
Oh, thank you so much as well.
I'm absolutely delighted to havebeen in this conversation with you.
That's it for today's episode.
If you're enjoying Mythic, please shareit with a friend or on social media.
You can find show notes andother information for myth

(01:09:21):
lovers at mythicpodcast.com.
That's also where you can make a one-timecontribution to support production of the
podcast if you'd like, and you can alwaysdrop me a line on Twitter at Boston Blake.
Until next time, journey on.

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