July 7, 2023 • 45 mins
Author David Berger discusses Task Force Gaea and his mythic influences. Ovid's Metamorphoses, Clash of the Titans, Wonder Woman, and more!
About David Berger
David Berger was the boy under the blanket reading books by flashlight when he should have been sleeping, and he hasn’t stopped reading since. His creative fires started by reading Greek mythology, the stories of Olympian gods and heroes sparking a conflagration of learning that took him through novels—sci-fi, fantasy, or whatever he could find—and that, coupled with his love of comic books, especially Wonder Woman, brought him to writing. The act of putting pen to paper gave him an outlet he had never had, and the inspiration of the Muses pushed him forward.
His love of fantasy prompted writing a Greek myth fantasy series, Task Force: Gaea, a Celtic fantasy trilogy beginning with The Quest of Wyndracer and Fyrehunter, as well as an anthology of his own short fiction and poetry, Hippocrene’s Promise. When he’s not teaching or writing, he’s living his best fantasy life playing Dungeons & Dragons.
Twitter: CaptW0nd3r
Key Moments
- 04:49 - David Berger's origin story
- 09:44 - Task Force Gaea
- 17:19 - Reversing Ovid's Metamorphoses: Artemis and Actaeon, Perseus and Medusa
- 20:38 - Year of Redemption: reflections on teaching high school during the 2020 Covid shutdown
- 26:35 - Clash of the Titans, Perseus is a dick.
- 34:46 - Odysseus, the rise of humanism, and the twilight of the gods
Relevant Links
- The Great Greek Myths (Les Grands Mythes) - TV Series - IMDB
- David Berger's official website
- JLA: League of One by Christopher Moeller DC Comics
- Clash of the Titans (1981) - IMDb
- Metamorphoses - Wikipedia
- D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths by Ingri d'Aulaire | Goodreads
- How a Medusa Sculpture From a Decade Ago Became #MeToo Art - The New York Times
Music composed by Kevin MacLeod
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Boston (00:19):
This episode will benefit from some context.
My guest today is David Berger,who is a good friend that I
met a number of years ago.
He is not only an incredibly talentedwriter and lover of myth and Wonder Woman.
He's also a dedicated teacher.
(00:40):
David and I recorded this episodeback in May of 2021, and some of
what we discuss is really pertinentto that time when we were coming
out of the Deep Covid lockdowns.
This recording has been on ice fora really long time, and I just sat
(01:00):
down to edit it a few weeks ago, andit was a really powerful experience
because it reminded me of why I startedthis podcast in the first place.
I started Mythic for three reasons.
One was to give myself an outlet totalk about myth and pop culture and
how those things weave together.
(01:21):
The second was to engage themythological community the people who
are approaching mythology from bothan academic and creative perspective.
The third reason was to find my people.
If you're listening to this,you might be somebody who really
identifies with myth and archetypalthinking, storytelling, and.
(01:43):
At least in my experience, it's apretty small group of people who really
thinks deeply about these things.
And I created this so that wewould have a place to discuss.
And so sitting down with David,David and I share so many interests
in common, you'll hear moreabout David when I introduce him.
but I guess what I'm trying to sayis that I'm excited to get back to
(02:03):
the core of why I started Mythic.
I'm going to make somechanges to the format.
More storytelling, which people have askedme for, more of my own responses to pop
culture and more guests, I hope, who areworking with myth in different ways, who
have maybe a more casual relationship withmythology than say, depth psychologists.
(02:26):
And also I hope to continue tointerview as a many depth psychologist
and mythologist as I possibly can.
But at the end of the day, one of thereasons that myth endures is because
it not only enlightens us, it not onlyinspires us, but it entertains us.
(02:46):
Myth is fun and talking with David.
And more importantly, editing aftertwo years this conversation with David
really got me back in touch with havingcommunity around myth and storytelling.
And toward that end, I'm going tostart hosting a monthly Zoom call
(03:08):
for anybody who wants to join.
If you'd like to get thatinformation, you can go to boston
blake.com or mythic podcast.com.
I'll have it in bothplaces, there'll be free.
There's no charge for that.
I hope I'll see you there.
I would love to meet you, would loveto meet the people who are listening
to Mythic and to discuss myth andpop culture and personal development,
(03:32):
and how they all weave together.
So I hope you enjoy this episode.
Thank you for being here.
And here is Mr.
David Berger.
My guest today is Mr.
David Berger.
He is the author of a seriesof mythology, superhero novel.
(03:57):
And the ones I've read arethe Task Force Gaea series.
I met David online many years ago,through the DC Comics Message Boards.
And then, when that was when DCcomics had message boards and then
that closed down and the WonderWoman tribe migrated to Comic Book
(04:18):
Resources, and David was the moderator.
AKA Aegis bearer of the Wonder Womanchat room and, Wonder Woman, as she
has brought so many friends intomy life, she brought David into my
life and I'm very grateful for that.
And David is also a high school teacherin Land O Lakes, Florida, and, is a
(04:40):
generally great contributor to humankind.
Thank you for being here, David.
David (04:47):
it's my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Boston (04:49):
How did myth find its way into your life?
David (04:53):
I think it all started back in school when I was very young and we
learned about Greek mythology in schoolsomewhere, probably in middle school.
And I found myself fascinated by thestories and the magic behind the stories.
My first introduction wasto Greek mythology and then
(05:14):
it later expanded to others.
Then once the comic world cameinto my life and of course, Wonder
Woman, and then they meshed that'swhen I think I even was more fueled
to look more into it because wow.
If mythology ties into thisother character, I want to
know more about the mythology.
And I just kept readingevery book I could.
I mean this was before the internet.
(05:34):
So every book I could find and multiplebooks, even if it was on the same
subject .Picture books, I look at art.
art based on mythology.
So I saw things that I probably didn'tunderstand much back then, but now
as an adult, I do understand, It was,it's been a huge part of my life?
Every day of my life is surrounded bysome aspect of mythology, whether it's
(05:55):
in the shrine I'm sitting in right now,or just pieces of art on the wall of
my home are based in mythology as well.
Boston (06:01):
How old were you when these came into your life?
David (06:04):
I'm going to say, early teens, maybe 11 or 12 at the earliest,
whenever middle school started.
Or maybe it was late elementary.
Cause I know that tenure at 10years old, I was in fifth grade.
So maybe about twelve.
I think it was when I was injunior high school, middle school,
when we started reading that.
And I don't know how it got introduced.
I don't know from what lessons orwhat books we were looking at, I do
(06:27):
actually have a copy somewhere in myhome of D'Aulaire's, mythology, which
has been one of my favorite booksever, just because of the artwork.
And I know that you'reprobably familiar with it.
and then.
Boston (06:40):
a beautiful book.
It was one of my first mythology books to,
David (06:44):
One of my favorite pictures in it is a picture of Gaia and your runner.
Yeah.
It's just, it's a spectacular pieceof art and the whole book is, and I
think somehow I acquired that book.
I don't think I ever returned itto the library, to be honest, I
think it's got to still has thebook card in the inside cover.
Yeah, that was when I first started.
And then any other book that hadit in it, any book I could find.
Boston (07:08):
That's about when it started for me too.
That's when I really starteddigging deep and I had the reading
chops to be able to track it down.
But most of the myths that Icould find were kids' books.
Had comics already enteredyour world at that point.
David (07:23):
Yeah, I think so.
I think that was about maybeI wasn't interested yet in
Wonder Woman the way I am now.
But I think as a comic bookreader, that was when I started
getting into comics at that point.
And that's how I was introduced to thecomic book, mythology Wonder Woman thing.
And then also Super Friendsthat episode of her origin.
(07:45):
all that was all of that wasaround the same time for me.
I think.
Boston (07:50):
And when you did plug into mythology and to dilemma, do you
remember one of the first storiesthat, that caught your imagination?
David (07:59):
The stories that I remember are the ones tied to the pictures and
I there's picture of Artemis runningthrough the woods with animals around her.
And I remember reading about her andbeing one of Zeus's favorite children.
And, and also as a huge spread in thebook of Athena with everything about
her, from crafts to war, to everything.
And I just remember.
(08:19):
The story is about all the birthstories, all the origin stories.
I remember, which I've gottenlater, more into, as I got older,
but those were the ones that stoodout to me, just the creation myths.
going from Chaos to Gaia, to, tothe Titans and all of that, just for
some reason, origin myths stories.
I always like to knowwhere they came from.
(08:41):
And then later on, as they got older andbecame full-fledged gods, what they did.
and that was a verysuperficial look in that book.
that was not like an in-depth.
Later on Edith Hamilton's mythologybecame like a Bible to me and
I have owned multiple copiesof that book over the years and
Bulfinch's and all sorts of books.
But I don't know if there'sany particular story.
(09:01):
I could open up a book of mythologyto any story and lose myself
for however long I have pages.
Boston (09:09):
Yeah.
To open up the book of mythology andjust pick a page and go, and that world,
that, that mythic realm, you can juststep in there and stay for a while.
I think of these gods andgoddesses as being real forces
in life, not just characters ona page or fictions describing,
(09:31):
primitive ways of seeing things.
I think of them as being psychological,psychologically relevant.
Do you relate to any ofthe gods or goddesses?
Do you see how those archetypes mightwork and function in your own life?
David (09:44):
From early on and I don't know why exactly, Apollo
was a favorite God of mine.
I know he and his sister didnot always have the best.
they could be harsh.
With their use of their bow and arrow.
But I, as far as being a god ofreason and I got up music and
spending time amongst the muses and,and the God associated with light.
(10:05):
And I don't know if some reason him.
Maybe being a young blonde kid, seeinga young blonde god just maybe think of
that's the one I, as I identified withanyway, and being a reader and one who
appreciated reason and understanding.
And I think for some reason or another,I think that's the one, that's the one
figure who stands out and who becamea much stronger figure in my writing,
(10:29):
in the novels I've written he's, he'sincluded in every book, and from that
I've tangentially, appreciated, Artemisand other figures in his life too.
But that, he's the one figure thatstands out in my mind is from earlier.
Boston (10:43):
Let's talk about the novels you've written.
What's the origin storyof Task Force Gaea?
David (10:49):
The origin story started in high school for some sort of
creative writing project we had to do.
And the teacher gave uscarte blanche to do anything.
And I had written it originally witha team of heroes in outer space,
like a star Trek meets Greek mythfeel because it would be different.
And I only remember writing the ones.
(11:09):
It was a lengthy story for me, itwas a good 20 pages back, but back
in high school, 20 pages to write fora short story, it was quite a bit.
And I remember because starTrek was big on TV for me.
And I remember the outer space thing,and I wanted to be different and
encountering versions of creatures inouter space that you'd see in the books.
And so I wanted to tie it together andthat the original team, I can't even
(11:31):
it's been so long was it was a little bitdifferent, but, It evolved over the time.
But I knew I wantedmythology to be a part of it.
And my version of the mythology too,like using the standard figures that
you can encounter, but I wanted tocreate other monsters, other gods, other
primordial beings, so that it would havemore of my touch rather than simply the
(11:55):
originals, which, we all tend to know.
I didn't want to feel likeI was being a copy of.
And using that, but because it happensso much, you read any book of adventure
and any creature that comes up, it'soh, that's a version of this Cerberus.
That's a version of aChimera or something.
I wanted mine to have a flavor of thatwithout it being, I didn't want, the
(12:15):
ghost of Homer or some other figure inancient history to wag his finger at me
and say, no, no, That's how it started.
And then once the story was written, itsat in a notebook for a very long time.
I didn't have aspirations of writinga novel until much, much later.
but that was where, when I decided that,oh, I want to expand on that story.
Eventually I picked it up againand worked with it until the first
(12:39):
book, which was like 25 years.
Boston (12:43):
I was just listening to a Jungian analyst tell this story
of starting to draw a pictureof when he was a little kid and.
he was shamed for the outcome andhe put away as crayons and never
picked them up again until I thinkhe said it was 50 years later,
(13:04):
it was much, much later in life.
And he said the same picture cameout of him at that point when
he, he, and he got, he, it washis wife, I believe who gave him
the permission slip to do the creating.
And it really struck me that this isa thing that happens to artists and
writers and makers of any kind wheresomething gets in us and it just
(13:28):
stews and refines and dances aroundin our psyche until we let it out.
And I'm struck by.
that 25 year gestation period, somethingsparked you, it sat, you probably visited
it, stepped away and visit it and steppedaway, like with much distance until
then it like comes out finally formed.
(13:50):
and then that led toanother book and another.
So how many books have you written now?
David (13:54):
In that series three are published and one is in
the process of being tweaked.
It's basically done.
I just have to go back throughand make some final changes.
After letting it sit for so long,I realized there were aspects
I wasn't really happy with.
And I'm currently waiting forthe cover art to manifest itself
from an artist I've looked into.
Then there'll be a fifth for that one.
Yeah.
(14:15):
So I have an end point, but hopefully,some kind of end point, but I'm
not against doing side novels withpicking a character out of the book
and doing something with that personor, giving up the characters are not
going to necessarily be laid to rest.
I'd like to continue.
I have another side venture on thatas well, which ties into the plot of
my, of one of the books where the godsare mortal and the whole anthology I'm
(14:37):
working on is how a year in the lifeof each of these gods and they have to
live as a human being for that year.
And, the challenges of being afully blooded mortal person with
no power, and being in a positionin life that they are not.
Accustomed to, where Poseidon is relocatedto Kansas and has to live as a farmer
(14:58):
near no water.
And how do you live alife like that for a year?
Not knowing what that's evenor, Hermes is a life coach.
Haiti's coach.
I think Hermes is a paraplegic actor.
so Hermes has to get away, getaround without the use of his
legs and be a he's an actor.
It's just, there's a whole bunch ofstorytelling I want to do where I put
(15:19):
the gods as humans in a challengingsituation and have them, Hestia
is homeless in London somewhere.
And she has to get around and knowing whothey are inside, but not looking the same.
And then having to,adapt for an entire year.
They have no choice.
And how do you, and what do you take away?
And I've alluded to it in the books,I've alluded to the fact that they
(15:40):
have had this journey, even thoughI haven't finalized that book yet,
I've made comments about they'veremember certain qualities or certain
traits that they had to adapt towhen they were living that way.
So I've so I want to get that book done assoon as this book is finished before the
fifth one, I think just because I want to,I really want to get that out of my, like
Athena being birthed from Zeus's head.
(16:01):
I want that collection ofstories out in the world as well.
Boston (16:04):
There's a quality in modern life.
people aspiring to be godlike.
And one of the things that's so appealingabout Greek myth is that gods are
not necessarily aspirational figures.
They might be.
You know the best Weaver,but you don't want to aspire.
You certainly don't want tocompare yourself to a God.
(16:27):
And this idea that the gods wouldbecome more whole by having an
experience of being human, as opposedto humans becoming more refined
by being more god-like, that juststrikes me as a wonderful parable and.
Because since we are humans, itseems to me that being more human
(16:49):
is really the way to go, to be moreof what we are instead of trying to
get away from it and be some ideal.
As you said, Apollo and Artemis, yes,they're extraordinary and outstanding
and remarkable and also dangerous.
and like all of the gods, the lightand shadow side are both very intense.
(17:11):
Like humans, but hopefully we're betterintegrated and we're not flipping from one
extreme to the other the way the gods do.
We could learn.
They can't.
David (17:19):
It's funny.
you mentioning this, I'm also working ona collection of short stories and I know
sort of been gestating for awhile whereI'm turning this, the transformation
stories kind of like a reverse Ovid where.
One of the first stories was aboutActaeon when he was transformed.
My story is.
basically the stag gets away becauseanother hunter steps in to save
(17:40):
him and ultimately he realizes thatthis is a human been transformed.
And he makes pleased to the gods tolook for redemption and eventually
the stag has transformed back intoActaeon and the man and he become close
well closer than friends, but there'ssomething in that story that shows that
there's some redemption, that Actaeondidn't mean to stumble on upon Artemis.
(18:04):
He was taken in by her beauty.
Boston (18:05):
Will you tell the story of Actaeon of Artemis and Actaeon to create context?
David (18:11):
sure.
Actaeon as a hunter.
And he was traveling with hishunting dogs and he stumbled upon
Artemis and her maidens bathing.
And it was a purely innocentact from what I gathered.
I don't think he was looking for it.
He happened to part thebranches and see her there.
And she took such an affront tothat, that she splashed water on him.
And he turned into a stag and thathis hunting hounds turned on him
(18:32):
and in the myth they devoured him.
And that was one of the ways inwhich she could be very abrupt.
I don't think it was cruelty.
I think it was just her being who she wasa goddess and feeling the sense of you've.
You dare to look at me and thatstory and my story kind of makes
it so that he becomes human again.
And there's some redemption and Icall it a heart's redemption, but H a
(18:53):
R T for that, the other one is, I'm.
I was always fascinated byPerseus and Medusa as a child.
As many people who know the story.
My story is Perseus goes to cat to killher and instead of doing so before he's
about to chop her head off, asked her,how did you come to be who you are?
(19:13):
And she tells the story, and thenthey somehow vowed to work together.
And she returns with him to Polydectesand does the thing in the myth
where she turns them all to stone.
And then somehow he again, finds away to find redemption through Athena.
Boston (19:28):
Yeah.
David (19:29):
she has really transformed back into this maiden again, but I'm
trying to make it so that it seemsplausible and workable that because
we know Poseidon raped Medusa andAthena's shrine, and rather she couldn't
take her vengeance out on Poseidon.
So she took it out on Athena and oneof the most striking things I've seen.
What would you say?
Yeah, one of the most striking thingsI've seen in recent years is, a statue
(19:52):
of Medusa holding Perseus's head..
Boston (19:55):
It's stunning.
David (19:56):
And I didn't want to do that story cause I figured that kind of has
already been done through the statue,but I wanted to do it where I want to
pick certain stories of transformationbased on the gods doing what they
do, and finding redemption somehow.
So that these people actually, througha legitimate means find peace and
the gods themselves can go, oh yeah,that I made a mistake or something.
(20:18):
that's what I've also been ruminating on.
I think part of that redemptive ideafor me is through this past year of
teaching through open thing, findingredemption in other ways, too,
in redeeming ourselves in myself.
And, it's been a very difficultyear in that, in my profession.
as many people have had.
Boston (20:38):
Would you mind saying more about that?
The year of redemption, orthe, or experiencing redemption
through this past year.
This COVID time.
David (20:48):
I spent almost 30 years in the classroom and we've had to
drastically change what we do withhybrid learning through zoom and
having kids on camera and the same time
we have kids in the classroom.
and I've had students already whostruggled with, how do you read a
play when you're all reading parts,when you can't see each other and
do all of these things together,all this stuff we had to deal with.
(21:10):
And I struggled a lot this year.
I ugly cried more in the past schoolyear than I have in the past five
years, just because it was so muchof a struggle to put the passionate.
Doing what I love to do, but notbeing able to do it the way I want to.
And being on the fly, asked tocreate curriculum that has to
get posted to a virtual place forstudents to be able to access it.
(21:33):
And we didn't have ayear or two to prepare.
It's just here we go.
We're on the hitting the ground running.
I feel like I know myself andI know that I wasn't my best.
I know that there were areas I wishI could have done better on it.
Students in bursts of honesty tell mewhat they wish I had done differently.
And I take that to heart.
it wasn't done out of malice.
(21:55):
It was done out of, we just wished thatyou had done these things differently
because we don't feel as if we got thebest experience in these circumstances.
And yes, they were hardto hear, but we're human.
And as a human being, I have to finda way to redeem myself next year.
Like I have plans for how I wantto deal with things, because
now we have a year of students.
The juniors will be my seniors who spent ayear, some of them, at home and won't have
(22:18):
been in the classroom for a whole year.
How do you reacclimateto being in the building?
Will there be masks?
Will there not?
I it's just, it's avery introspective time.
transformation.
And we've talked about that too, in thepast, the idea of transforming yourself
and transformation as a whole, becomingsomeone better and someone stronger
and looking at your flaws and lookingat all the weaknesses and using that
(22:41):
as a tool to create and be more thanwhat you were before, which ties of
course, into our Wonder Woman love.
But I think all of that comesfrom, mythological transformations.
That's all the mythology was for meas a child was watching one thing,
being transformed into another, Gaiatransforming nothingness into reality.
(23:01):
Gaia becoming the earth.
All of these things.
Just transformation is like a motifthroughout the entirety of know mythology.
Boston (23:09):
That's why Ovid called it The Metamorphosis.
transformation and to transformation.
And that's the message of myththat everything is constantly in
motion and becoming something else.
It's a message of method.
The only constant in life is change, andI would argue that transformation is a
(23:30):
conscious act that everything changes, butto transform requires your participation.
David (23:37):
It's interesting that you make that connection.
I think change and transformationaren't really exactly the same.
Change happens because circumstanceshappen and we have to adapt on the fly.
But transformation, I think is aconscious choice to transform yourself.
You have to make deliberate things happen.
Yes, the day changes intonight and night changes.
(23:59):
into day that's just apart of the natural world.
But to transform takes effort.
It takes that sense of a purpose.
It takes a vision it takes reflection.
You have to look back upon yourselfand say, where have I been?
What am I doing?
And what do I need to do in the future?
And some people don't do that.
They just live day to day.
(24:19):
And I think people like yourself andme, we are people who are reflective
and transformative And in some way,whether it's conscious or not, we
look toward myth, the idea of thecollective unconscious, or just a
sense of the storytelling of theworld has always been collective.
Transformation is in every culture.
Whether it's Egyptian or Greekor Celtic or whichever, there's
(24:42):
always some natural or supernaturaltransformation that happens.
Boston (24:47):
I think there's a mystery in there.
A reason that never goes away.
our Zeit Geist right nowis so methodological and so
mechanical and technical.
And transformation somehow implies spirit.
It somehow implies an unseen force likethat something can transform that a new
(25:12):
form can take the place of an old formto truly become something different
that flies in the face of this causeand effect, back and forth world that
it seems like everyone's looking for10 ways to make your life better.
And very rarely does that involvereally looking in and reflecting
(25:37):
on who you've been, who youare and who you want to become?
That series of Wonder Woman in the mideighties, when George Perez started
writing the book, that's when themythology went really front and center.
And that I really saw Wonder Womanas this kind of awesome life coach.
one thing that comes up is that whatwas the standalone book with the Justice
(26:00):
League, where she takes out every memberof the justice league, she wraps herself.
David (26:05):
League of One.
Boston (26:06):
League of One.
Thank you.
So in Justice League of one WonderWoman wraps herself in her own lasso.
And this is part of her regularmeditation of constantly being
honest with herself and learning tohold her own contradictions and to
constantly be renewing her own souland purifying and looking at the truth.
(26:27):
And I absolutely loved.
That's the being with the truthof who we are, the warts and all.
When was the last time youwatched Clash of the Titans?
The eighties, the 1981.
David (26:40):
Probably not that long ago within the past five or six months.
within recent times,
Boston (26:46):
Oh, great.
So I rewatched it acouple of months ago also.
And first of all, I love it.
I will never not love that movie.
To Perseus is a deck
David (26:59):
Yeah.
Boston (27:00):
goes and he steals the eye from these three women like holds their
eyeball hostage and then he goes toMedusa at home and chops her head off.
That movie, there was noreflectiveness at all.
They never, it was just.
Always forward.
It was very machismo, very masculine,there was no learning involved.
(27:23):
He was gifted from the beginning,gets the presence from Zeus and
then goes and does some really awfulthings and then to marry, Andromeda.
Who's also just being blownaround by the winds of fate.
David (27:36):
it's interesting that you bring that up because as a kid.
I wouldn't say I lookedup to heroes like Perseus.
I don't think I ever looked at them thatway, but I always thought of them as
like in the heroic sense of, I didn'tknow any differently about Medusa as
far as the pity I would have for her.
Like it didn't, it neverdawned on me as a child.
(27:56):
I didn't understand the nuances ofwhat, why Athena did what she did
and and why she couldn't do anythingto preside and that kind of thing.
So the idea of Perseus slaying amonster, we always view her as a monster.
Boston (28:09):
she's ugly.
Yeah.
David (28:10):
Yeah.
and some people have tried to evensay, if Thena actually empowered
her, because they give her the powerto turn men to stone and anyone who
would look at her or try to harm her.
And I get that it is an empowerment,but the way she's been portrayed
in storytelling is more of aregressed, monstrous figure,
not an intellectual woman who.
I could walk around of her own free willand engage, and then use that only as
(28:35):
needed, rather than just this moment, youlook at her bam, you're turning to stone.
I find that looking back on the mythology,and I think we recently touched upon this.
I don't know if I think it wasthrough Twitter, the myths, the great
Greek myth series on Netflix or.
Boston (28:51):
It's on Amazon prime, The Great Greek Myths.
David (28:54):
And I really enjoyed that version of things like listening to the stories
and some things I thought were definitelydifferent from the way I remembered them.
But of course, mythology hasvariety of origins, depending
on who's telling the story.
Boston (29:05):
It's also French and there are certain cultural norms that
the French version like translationof things was holding on to.
David (29:15):
There are certain things about that and just watching the stories unfold.
It is very patriarchal.
Zeus is the center of thatuniverse for them and all of them
male figures act accordingly.
Whereas the women, thegoddesses do plenty as well.
Hara she's got her own power, butit's always Zeus and his prowess,
as I had done with my students,I call it his magic Thunderbolt.
(29:37):
That's what he taught everybody withand they're somehow impregnated.
And that's why I take such offense to.
Going back to the comics whenWonder Woman was made her daughter.
it wasn't just the change of the story.
It was an entire switch ofpatriarchal influence where
(29:58):
she never ever had that before.
And.
That's why I loved her so much.
Cause it was a matriarchal thing.
I am more into what Gaia didor what the goddess is done.
Even when Artemis transforms Actaeon, Thepower of women has always been looked upon
(30:18):
as dark in some ways as it's a negative.
Oh, she's just acting outbecause she's a woman.
Whereas the men do it and they'rebeing men, they're being it's elevated.
And I think that's where mythologyfor me is I can look at the myths and
understand them and take from them.
But like in my books, when Ihave empowered characters, the
female characters in my booksare tremendously empowered.
(30:41):
Even though they go up againstmythological whatevers, the male
heroes in the book, don't overshare.
The women at all, they actually reallywork with they, they encourage, they
learn from as it's supposed to be.
it's not just, I don't want to justbe so pro-feminist that every female
character has to be above every man, butthere has to be an equal footing there.
(31:04):
And I think that's what mythologytaught me, looking at that.
What I thought was so impressiveas a child and it was magic.
It was magic, seeing things,transforming to other things or
seeing the gods do what they do.
But then realizing as an adult that yeah,that the Greek culture was very different
than I realized it was as a child.
(31:26):
And the same thing was true with everyother culture that has mythology to it,
including Christianity, Judaism, Islam.
There's a certain storytellingthat goes along with it.
And it's the largely grosslypatriarchal and, oppressive and abusive.
And not many people like to seethat because it takes away what they
(31:47):
believe to be part of who they are.
And it challenges them.
I like that though.
I like being challenged.
I like being on the outside.
I like being on fringe.
That's where I'm happiest.
I like being one of the weird,because then I know I have a place.
but yeah, I don't know.
It's this mythic, this idea of thismythic conversation to me is when
(32:10):
I talk about this to my kids, I doan entire unit, basically from the
birth of the universe through theTrojan war to get to a particular
poem by Yeats about Leto and the Swan.
Boston (32:21):
Yes.
David (32:22):
But I do this entire storytelling to get them every time I talk
about a god, I tell a story or two,and it's all about storytelling.
And I get to the place where,that leads into the Trojan war and
what happens with Agamemnon andMenelaus and all of this stuff.
The versions of myth, and thekids are just wide-eyed they go,
how do you know all that?
(32:43):
I said, I've been teaching itforever, but it's one of my passions.
It's storytelling.
We talk about transformation and we gointo a whole side conversation about
that too, I surround myself with magicbecause that's what triggers my creativity
like drinking from the fountain.
that the muses are inspired by, I w Iwant to have, I wish Pegasus would fly by.
(33:05):
I could put wings on my dogand just let him run around.
I named my dog after Odysseus'sdog because that was an important
figure in my storytelling.
Boston (33:14):
All of my devices have mythological names, hard
drives computers, phones.
I also, there's something that triggersmy imagination and triggering my
imagination triggers a sense of mystery.
And a sense of meaning.
I just taught a course called creatingwith the gods and we were, it was
a coaching program where we use themonths of the year as a framework.
(33:37):
So you've got the gods forwhom the months are named.
So Janus, Februus, Mars, Aphrodite,Maia, and Juno, and it was so much fun
because the game really became whereour myths embedded into our language.
We're having these imagesfed to us all the time.
(33:59):
And the more you know about the stories,the more a single word can activate
a whole way of seeing the world.
It can all be magical,naming your dog Argo.
Yes, myth is magical,but myth isn't magic.
It's where fantasy is used to communicatesomething very real, very true.
(34:23):
That doesn't actually fitinto the world of facts.
At least that's how I see it.
David (34:29):
I've watched the great myths series and the last two seasons where the Trojan
War, and then of course Odysseus's return.
And I've always loved The Iliad andThe Odyssey and even The Aeneid,
which doesn't wasn't touched on.
But I love those stories because,and there's much to learn from that.
Even though Odysseus is also a Dick, hesleeps with all these other goddesses
(34:50):
and yet he wants to go home to his wife.
it's a very differentway of looking at things.
Just the things that the trials andtribulations of humanity against
greater obstacles, and they chooseto be empowered by themselves.
And the idea that at least to put it,they put it out in the series, was that
Odysseus was moving toward abandoning thegods, was more about himself and being a
(35:10):
human being and the gods felt threatenedby that idea, which makes a lot of sense.
Boston (35:16):
I thought that was a pretty inspired take on it.
I liked that a lot and I'venever heard that before.
David (35:20):
Yeah.
Me either.
And I wonder if that's, because you saidit was inspired by this French series.
I wonder if it was a Europeanversion of events that they
had taken from something else.
And I didn't look at the sourcematerial, I don't know, but
looking back on the story.
And even that really bad home, I don'tthink it was a Hallmark movie, but
it was a movie with Armando Santiago.
He played Odysseus and Isabella Rosaliniplayed Athena and it was a fun movie,
(35:44):
but it was very much the same idea thatOdysseus wanted nothing from the gods.
And the gods kept saying, we controlyou, but he's no, not really.
I think that for me, As more spiritualin my life and I am superbly religious.
Now, I feel like I'm more a control.
I take inspiration from other sources,but I don't find myself betrothed to them.
(36:07):
And I want to live my own lifeand not look to a book of texts,
whether it's the Torah or whateverto say, this is how I must live.
I think I understand Odysseus journey.
You want to do your own thing?
You want to be your own person andnot be beholden to powers greater
than you are, or have people say,no, your wisdom actually came from
(36:28):
me as a goddess of wisdom where he'ssaying, no, I think my willingness
and my cunning is really my own.
that, that sense of owning who you areand owning your own power is incredibly
for lack of a better word, empowering.
It's just, it's powerful to saythat idea of loving who you are
for all your gifts and using them.
Boston (36:57):
When you were growing up, what were some of your favorite stories?
nursery rhymes, children's books,movies, cartoons, comics, TV.
David (37:05):
The ones that stick with me the most were ones
that have a fantasy and magic.
whether I've been King Arthur or just,magical things that were beyond the normal
mythological magical stories of all types.
Boston (37:18):
Do you remember one of the first that caught your attention?
David (37:23):
Wow.
Making me think back way far.
I think the earliest memories I haveare like first storyline stories
like that are sitting in my publiclibrary, reading a book of mythology.
And that was the one thingthat stands out, not maybe
one particular myth, but just.
Stands out to me the most.
(37:44):
And that, that kindled the fire.
Boston (37:46):
Thank you.
What's something that you believeto be true that you cannot
prove, or that cannot be proven.
David (37:54):
I don't know if it can't be proven or not.
I'm unsure on this one, but I thinkthat true compassion for others can
do more than anything else in theworld, more than money, more than
anything, compassion has the most power.
And yet it is the most underutilized.
Boston (38:12):
That's beautiful.
In what ways are you the same now asyou were when you were a little kid?
David (38:20):
I'm still in love with comic books and escape and fantasy more.
Now, if not, then, thenI didn't know any better.
That was all new to me.
Now I embrace it more as a.
And the transformative part of my life.
But yeah, it's, I'm the same in that way.
I cosplay, I dress up as other characters.
Not many people will admit tothat without a sense of shame.
(38:41):
sometimes they will go, I dothis for Halloween, but no, I
have pictures of my cosplay.
My phone has a picture of my cosplay
So yeah, that's how I amthe same now, as I was then.
Boston (38:51):
Have you ever encountered a phenomenon that you just can't explain?
David (38:56):
Wow, what an open-ended question.
oh, wow.
My fear is that it's going to comeback to something nature-based or
something and in, in the truest senseof that, but there's a certain sense of.
I don't call it.
Pleasure, maybe pleasure,euphoria being out in the natural
world, that transcends reality.
(39:19):
And in a sense, it just, there'ssomething about being a part of it all.
I am not better than worse than I ammore equal to those things around me.
There's a tree there's grass,there's a lake there's me, but it's
just, I feel like I'm that one.
Yeah, I dunno how else to describeit, but I enjoy standing outside and
taking in nature in that euphoric sense.
(39:40):
Like I'm a part of the naturalworld, just as much as anything else.
If I don't know if that trulyanswers your question, but that's
what pops in my head when you asked.
Boston (39:48):
That does sound phenomenal.
And perhaps the answer is the same,but the next question is when in your
life have you experienced ecstasy?.
David (39:59):
Multiple times, I think ecstasy for me comes from when I experienced
the truest sense of joy and love.
Whether it's with other people,whether I'm alone out in the world.
there's a certain feeling that, ecstasiesor some can be considered sexual.
(40:20):
It could be other things.
It could be religious for me.
It's not so much religious, but it'swhen I experienced love in some form
or another, I feel a sense of ecstasy.
There's it's an empowerment.
Boston (40:32):
I hear love and compassion and transformation as these three core
values in you that are really infusingyour work and your life and what it
is to be a teacher and an artist, cosplayer, as we come to the end of our
time together, is there anything youwant to bring to the conversation?
(40:53):
Something we haven't hit on somethingthat's really alive for you right now.
David (40:59):
I feel like I'm at a crossroads of my life for some reason or another.
I can't.
and every time I think about that,again, going back to mythology, I
think a pack of tea and the goddessof the crossroads and opportunities.
And I'm looking to find some sort of magicor other worldly inspiration to bring me
(41:19):
across the other side of that intersectionand put me on that path somewhere.
Again, that's as I'm sure youunderstand mythology, it's not an
overt religious experience per se,like the ancient Greeks had, but it's
an embodiment of the intangible thingsof the things in the world that we
embrace are mythical and magical.
I feel like I'm looking towards somethingcoming that I don't know yet what it is,
(41:43):
but I know that I'm at that crossroadsand I need to be respectful to myself
and others for that I need to pay homage.
I need to, I don't worship Hecate butI feel like I need to respect the world
and in all of its energy in order to moveme forward and get me to where I need.
Boston (42:00):
Such an interesting place to be in life.
I feel like we're there collectively,at the end of this long Dar
year, that has lasted a century.
So many of us are questioning futurepaths and that sense of crossroads and
you and I are both kind of midlife.
(42:21):
And so we're also at that point of, okay,we've done and we've succeeded where we've
succeeded and we failed where we failedand there's this other half of life ahead.
What's that going to look like?
Hecate is a really wonderfulone to bring into that too.
She's the goddess of the crossroad.
She's also a goddess of willpower.
I think being curious and open tothe force of Hecate is a really
(42:44):
potent, powerful place to be.
It's too bad.
She's got such a bad rap because of theChristian association with witchcraft
and such, but she's a powerful figureand a connection to the subconscious.
She's one of the ones who could movebetween the underworld and the earth.
David (43:04):
Well, she was, I think from a certain stories have told she was the
ruler of the underworld perfor Hades.
Boston (43:09):
Oh, I haven't read that story.
David (43:11):
I had a few times, she's also a part of that triad of
Hecate, Demeter, and Persephone.
It's the triple goddess figure.
And it's also a transformation.
At a crossroads, it's a placeto transform your journey.
so there's all sorts of things andwe could spend hours discussing this.
I don't get many people who understandand appreciate the mythic like you do.
(43:32):
You're the first, if anyone ever askedme, who's someone you would talk to
about mythology in general, the firstperson would be you because I've known
that about you for such a long time.
So that's one of the aspects of you thatI think I admire is that you embrace that.
Boston (43:47):
Oh, I'm honored.
Thank you.
it's it is the love of my lifeand this is a niche conversation.
And I am finding that there are peoplewho love it and who want to have it.
And because it is so obscure, youtalk to somebody at a party about
this and their eyes just glazeover and what is wrong with you?
But then you find somebody,you say Hecate and their eyes
(44:09):
light up like, oh, Who's that?
That's what this podcast is about.
Like, how do I find,where are, where are they?
Where are our people thatwe can really have this
conversation and go deep into it.
if people want to find you online orread your books, where can they go?
David (44:26):
the books are on Amazon.
If you look up David burger TaskForce, Gaea Gaea spelt with an E.
You can find me on Twitter is @mrdbergerand Instagram is inspired Gemini.
Boston (44:46):
That's today's show.
Thank you again, David Berger forbeing on the podcast, for being one of
the first interviews that I ever did.
And thank you to our listeners.
I'm so glad you're here.
Like I said at the beginning of theepisode, I'm about to start a series
of Zoom sessions where we can talkabout the intersection of mythology and
(45:09):
personal development and pop culture.
You can find more informationabout that at my website,
bostonblake.com or mythic podcast.com.
You'll want to subscribeto the newsletter.
That's where I'll release updates and moreinformation and topics that we'll discuss.
mythic podcast.com is also whereyou can find more episodes,
(45:30):
more information about the show.
If you are enjoying the podcast, I hopeyou will consider leaving us some stars
wherever you get your podcasts andconsider sharing it with your friends.
Until next time, journey on.
This episode will benefit from some context.
My guest today is David Berger,who is a good friend that I
met a number of years ago.
He is not only an incredibly talentedwriter and lover of myth and Wonder Woman.
He's also a dedicated teacher.
(00:40):
David and I recorded this episodeback in May of 2021, and some of
what we discuss is really pertinentto that time when we were coming
out of the Deep Covid lockdowns.
This recording has been on ice fora really long time, and I just sat
(01:00):
down to edit it a few weeks ago, andit was a really powerful experience
because it reminded me of why I startedthis podcast in the first place.
I started Mythic for three reasons.
One was to give myself an outlet totalk about myth and pop culture and
how those things weave together.
(01:21):
The second was to engage themythological community the people who
are approaching mythology from bothan academic and creative perspective.
The third reason was to find my people.
If you're listening to this,you might be somebody who really
identifies with myth and archetypalthinking, storytelling, and.
(01:43):
At least in my experience, it's apretty small group of people who really
thinks deeply about these things.
And I created this so that wewould have a place to discuss.
And so sitting down with David,David and I share so many interests
in common, you'll hear moreabout David when I introduce him.
but I guess what I'm trying to sayis that I'm excited to get back to
(02:03):
the core of why I started Mythic.
I'm going to make somechanges to the format.
More storytelling, which people have askedme for, more of my own responses to pop
culture and more guests, I hope, who areworking with myth in different ways, who
have maybe a more casual relationship withmythology than say, depth psychologists.
(02:26):
And also I hope to continue tointerview as a many depth psychologist
and mythologist as I possibly can.
But at the end of the day, one of thereasons that myth endures is because
it not only enlightens us, it not onlyinspires us, but it entertains us.
(02:46):
Myth is fun and talking with David.
And more importantly, editing aftertwo years this conversation with David
really got me back in touch with havingcommunity around myth and storytelling.
And toward that end, I'm going tostart hosting a monthly Zoom call
(03:08):
for anybody who wants to join.
If you'd like to get thatinformation, you can go to boston
blake.com or mythic podcast.com.
I'll have it in bothplaces, there'll be free.
There's no charge for that.
I hope I'll see you there.
I would love to meet you, would loveto meet the people who are listening
to Mythic and to discuss myth andpop culture and personal development,
(03:32):
and how they all weave together.
So I hope you enjoy this episode.
Thank you for being here.
And here is Mr.
David Berger.
My guest today is Mr.
David Berger.
He is the author of a seriesof mythology, superhero novel.
(03:57):
And the ones I've read arethe Task Force Gaea series.
I met David online many years ago,through the DC Comics Message Boards.
And then, when that was when DCcomics had message boards and then
that closed down and the WonderWoman tribe migrated to Comic Book
(04:18):
Resources, and David was the moderator.
AKA Aegis bearer of the Wonder Womanchat room and, Wonder Woman, as she
has brought so many friends intomy life, she brought David into my
life and I'm very grateful for that.
And David is also a high school teacherin Land O Lakes, Florida, and, is a
(04:40):
generally great contributor to humankind.
Thank you for being here, David.
David (04:47):
it's my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Boston (04:49):
How did myth find its way into your life?
David (04:53):
I think it all started back in school when I was very young and we
learned about Greek mythology in schoolsomewhere, probably in middle school.
And I found myself fascinated by thestories and the magic behind the stories.
My first introduction wasto Greek mythology and then
(05:14):
it later expanded to others.
Then once the comic world cameinto my life and of course, Wonder
Woman, and then they meshed that'swhen I think I even was more fueled
to look more into it because wow.
If mythology ties into thisother character, I want to
know more about the mythology.
And I just kept readingevery book I could.
I mean this was before the internet.
(05:34):
So every book I could find and multiplebooks, even if it was on the same
subject .Picture books, I look at art.
art based on mythology.
So I saw things that I probably didn'tunderstand much back then, but now
as an adult, I do understand, It was,it's been a huge part of my life?
Every day of my life is surrounded bysome aspect of mythology, whether it's
(05:55):
in the shrine I'm sitting in right now,or just pieces of art on the wall of
my home are based in mythology as well.
Boston (06:01):
How old were you when these came into your life?
David (06:04):
I'm going to say, early teens, maybe 11 or 12 at the earliest,
whenever middle school started.
Or maybe it was late elementary.
Cause I know that tenure at 10years old, I was in fifth grade.
So maybe about twelve.
I think it was when I was injunior high school, middle school,
when we started reading that.
And I don't know how it got introduced.
I don't know from what lessons orwhat books we were looking at, I do
(06:27):
actually have a copy somewhere in myhome of D'Aulaire's, mythology, which
has been one of my favorite booksever, just because of the artwork.
And I know that you'reprobably familiar with it.
and then.
Boston (06:40):
a beautiful book.
It was one of my first mythology books to,
David (06:44):
One of my favorite pictures in it is a picture of Gaia and your runner.
Yeah.
It's just, it's a spectacular pieceof art and the whole book is, and I
think somehow I acquired that book.
I don't think I ever returned itto the library, to be honest, I
think it's got to still has thebook card in the inside cover.
Yeah, that was when I first started.
And then any other book that hadit in it, any book I could find.
Boston (07:08):
That's about when it started for me too.
That's when I really starteddigging deep and I had the reading
chops to be able to track it down.
But most of the myths that Icould find were kids' books.
Had comics already enteredyour world at that point.
David (07:23):
Yeah, I think so.
I think that was about maybeI wasn't interested yet in
Wonder Woman the way I am now.
But I think as a comic bookreader, that was when I started
getting into comics at that point.
And that's how I was introduced to thecomic book, mythology Wonder Woman thing.
And then also Super Friendsthat episode of her origin.
(07:45):
all that was all of that wasaround the same time for me.
I think.
Boston (07:50):
And when you did plug into mythology and to dilemma, do you
remember one of the first storiesthat, that caught your imagination?
David (07:59):
The stories that I remember are the ones tied to the pictures and
I there's picture of Artemis runningthrough the woods with animals around her.
And I remember reading about her andbeing one of Zeus's favorite children.
And, and also as a huge spread in thebook of Athena with everything about
her, from crafts to war, to everything.
And I just remember.
(08:19):
The story is about all the birthstories, all the origin stories.
I remember, which I've gottenlater, more into, as I got older,
but those were the ones that stoodout to me, just the creation myths.
going from Chaos to Gaia, to, tothe Titans and all of that, just for
some reason, origin myths stories.
I always like to knowwhere they came from.
(08:41):
And then later on, as they got older andbecame full-fledged gods, what they did.
and that was a verysuperficial look in that book.
that was not like an in-depth.
Later on Edith Hamilton's mythologybecame like a Bible to me and
I have owned multiple copiesof that book over the years and
Bulfinch's and all sorts of books.
But I don't know if there'sany particular story.
(09:01):
I could open up a book of mythologyto any story and lose myself
for however long I have pages.
Boston (09:09):
Yeah.
To open up the book of mythology andjust pick a page and go, and that world,
that, that mythic realm, you can juststep in there and stay for a while.
I think of these gods andgoddesses as being real forces
in life, not just characters ona page or fictions describing,
(09:31):
primitive ways of seeing things.
I think of them as being psychological,psychologically relevant.
Do you relate to any ofthe gods or goddesses?
Do you see how those archetypes mightwork and function in your own life?
David (09:44):
From early on and I don't know why exactly, Apollo
was a favorite God of mine.
I know he and his sister didnot always have the best.
they could be harsh.
With their use of their bow and arrow.
But I, as far as being a god ofreason and I got up music and
spending time amongst the muses and,and the God associated with light.
(10:05):
And I don't know if some reason him.
Maybe being a young blonde kid, seeinga young blonde god just maybe think of
that's the one I, as I identified withanyway, and being a reader and one who
appreciated reason and understanding.
And I think for some reason or another,I think that's the one, that's the one
figure who stands out and who becamea much stronger figure in my writing,
(10:29):
in the novels I've written he's, he'sincluded in every book, and from that
I've tangentially, appreciated, Artemisand other figures in his life too.
But that, he's the one figure thatstands out in my mind is from earlier.
Boston (10:43):
Let's talk about the novels you've written.
What's the origin storyof Task Force Gaea?
David (10:49):
The origin story started in high school for some sort of
creative writing project we had to do.
And the teacher gave uscarte blanche to do anything.
And I had written it originally witha team of heroes in outer space,
like a star Trek meets Greek mythfeel because it would be different.
And I only remember writing the ones.
(11:09):
It was a lengthy story for me, itwas a good 20 pages back, but back
in high school, 20 pages to write fora short story, it was quite a bit.
And I remember because starTrek was big on TV for me.
And I remember the outer space thing,and I wanted to be different and
encountering versions of creatures inouter space that you'd see in the books.
And so I wanted to tie it together andthat the original team, I can't even
(11:31):
it's been so long was it was a little bitdifferent, but, It evolved over the time.
But I knew I wantedmythology to be a part of it.
And my version of the mythology too,like using the standard figures that
you can encounter, but I wanted tocreate other monsters, other gods, other
primordial beings, so that it would havemore of my touch rather than simply the
(11:55):
originals, which, we all tend to know.
I didn't want to feel likeI was being a copy of.
And using that, but because it happensso much, you read any book of adventure
and any creature that comes up, it'soh, that's a version of this Cerberus.
That's a version of aChimera or something.
I wanted mine to have a flavor of thatwithout it being, I didn't want, the
(12:15):
ghost of Homer or some other figure inancient history to wag his finger at me
and say, no, no, That's how it started.
And then once the story was written, itsat in a notebook for a very long time.
I didn't have aspirations of writinga novel until much, much later.
but that was where, when I decided that,oh, I want to expand on that story.
Eventually I picked it up againand worked with it until the first
(12:39):
book, which was like 25 years.
Boston (12:43):
I was just listening to a Jungian analyst tell this story
of starting to draw a pictureof when he was a little kid and.
he was shamed for the outcome andhe put away as crayons and never
picked them up again until I thinkhe said it was 50 years later,
(13:04):
it was much, much later in life.
And he said the same picture cameout of him at that point when
he, he, and he got, he, it washis wife, I believe who gave him
the permission slip to do the creating.
And it really struck me that this isa thing that happens to artists and
writers and makers of any kind wheresomething gets in us and it just
(13:28):
stews and refines and dances aroundin our psyche until we let it out.
And I'm struck by.
that 25 year gestation period, somethingsparked you, it sat, you probably visited
it, stepped away and visit it and steppedaway, like with much distance until
then it like comes out finally formed.
(13:50):
and then that led toanother book and another.
So how many books have you written now?
David (13:54):
In that series three are published and one is in
the process of being tweaked.
It's basically done.
I just have to go back throughand make some final changes.
After letting it sit for so long,I realized there were aspects
I wasn't really happy with.
And I'm currently waiting forthe cover art to manifest itself
from an artist I've looked into.
Then there'll be a fifth for that one.
Yeah.
(14:15):
So I have an end point, but hopefully,some kind of end point, but I'm
not against doing side novels withpicking a character out of the book
and doing something with that personor, giving up the characters are not
going to necessarily be laid to rest.
I'd like to continue.
I have another side venture on thatas well, which ties into the plot of
my, of one of the books where the godsare mortal and the whole anthology I'm
(14:37):
working on is how a year in the lifeof each of these gods and they have to
live as a human being for that year.
And, the challenges of being afully blooded mortal person with
no power, and being in a positionin life that they are not.
Accustomed to, where Poseidon is relocatedto Kansas and has to live as a farmer
(14:58):
near no water.
And how do you live alife like that for a year?
Not knowing what that's evenor, Hermes is a life coach.
Haiti's coach.
I think Hermes is a paraplegic actor.
so Hermes has to get away, getaround without the use of his
legs and be a he's an actor.
It's just, there's a whole bunch ofstorytelling I want to do where I put
(15:19):
the gods as humans in a challengingsituation and have them, Hestia
is homeless in London somewhere.
And she has to get around and knowing whothey are inside, but not looking the same.
And then having to,adapt for an entire year.
They have no choice.
And how do you, and what do you take away?
And I've alluded to it in the books,I've alluded to the fact that they
(15:40):
have had this journey, even thoughI haven't finalized that book yet,
I've made comments about they'veremember certain qualities or certain
traits that they had to adapt towhen they were living that way.
So I've so I want to get that book done assoon as this book is finished before the
fifth one, I think just because I want to,I really want to get that out of my, like
Athena being birthed from Zeus's head.
(16:01):
I want that collection ofstories out in the world as well.
Boston (16:04):
There's a quality in modern life.
people aspiring to be godlike.
And one of the things that's so appealingabout Greek myth is that gods are
not necessarily aspirational figures.
They might be.
You know the best Weaver,but you don't want to aspire.
You certainly don't want tocompare yourself to a God.
(16:27):
And this idea that the gods wouldbecome more whole by having an
experience of being human, as opposedto humans becoming more refined
by being more god-like, that juststrikes me as a wonderful parable and.
Because since we are humans, itseems to me that being more human
(16:49):
is really the way to go, to be moreof what we are instead of trying to
get away from it and be some ideal.
As you said, Apollo and Artemis, yes,they're extraordinary and outstanding
and remarkable and also dangerous.
and like all of the gods, the lightand shadow side are both very intense.
(17:11):
Like humans, but hopefully we're betterintegrated and we're not flipping from one
extreme to the other the way the gods do.
We could learn.
They can't.
David (17:19):
It's funny.
you mentioning this, I'm also working ona collection of short stories and I know
sort of been gestating for awhile whereI'm turning this, the transformation
stories kind of like a reverse Ovid where.
One of the first stories was aboutActaeon when he was transformed.
My story is.
basically the stag gets away becauseanother hunter steps in to save
(17:40):
him and ultimately he realizes thatthis is a human been transformed.
And he makes pleased to the gods tolook for redemption and eventually
the stag has transformed back intoActaeon and the man and he become close
well closer than friends, but there'ssomething in that story that shows that
there's some redemption, that Actaeondidn't mean to stumble on upon Artemis.
(18:04):
He was taken in by her beauty.
Boston (18:05):
Will you tell the story of Actaeon of Artemis and Actaeon to create context?
David (18:11):
sure.
Actaeon as a hunter.
And he was traveling with hishunting dogs and he stumbled upon
Artemis and her maidens bathing.
And it was a purely innocentact from what I gathered.
I don't think he was looking for it.
He happened to part thebranches and see her there.
And she took such an affront tothat, that she splashed water on him.
And he turned into a stag and thathis hunting hounds turned on him
(18:32):
and in the myth they devoured him.
And that was one of the ways inwhich she could be very abrupt.
I don't think it was cruelty.
I think it was just her being who she wasa goddess and feeling the sense of you've.
You dare to look at me and thatstory and my story kind of makes
it so that he becomes human again.
And there's some redemption and Icall it a heart's redemption, but H a
(18:53):
R T for that, the other one is, I'm.
I was always fascinated byPerseus and Medusa as a child.
As many people who know the story.
My story is Perseus goes to cat to killher and instead of doing so before he's
about to chop her head off, asked her,how did you come to be who you are?
(19:13):
And she tells the story, and thenthey somehow vowed to work together.
And she returns with him to Polydectesand does the thing in the myth
where she turns them all to stone.
And then somehow he again, finds away to find redemption through Athena.
Boston (19:28):
Yeah.
David (19:29):
she has really transformed back into this maiden again, but I'm
trying to make it so that it seemsplausible and workable that because
we know Poseidon raped Medusa andAthena's shrine, and rather she couldn't
take her vengeance out on Poseidon.
So she took it out on Athena and oneof the most striking things I've seen.
What would you say?
Yeah, one of the most striking thingsI've seen in recent years is, a statue
(19:52):
of Medusa holding Perseus's head..
Boston (19:55):
It's stunning.
David (19:56):
And I didn't want to do that story cause I figured that kind of has
already been done through the statue,but I wanted to do it where I want to
pick certain stories of transformationbased on the gods doing what they
do, and finding redemption somehow.
So that these people actually, througha legitimate means find peace and
the gods themselves can go, oh yeah,that I made a mistake or something.
(20:18):
that's what I've also been ruminating on.
I think part of that redemptive ideafor me is through this past year of
teaching through open thing, findingredemption in other ways, too,
in redeeming ourselves in myself.
And, it's been a very difficultyear in that, in my profession.
as many people have had.
Boston (20:38):
Would you mind saying more about that?
The year of redemption, orthe, or experiencing redemption
through this past year.
This COVID time.
David (20:48):
I spent almost 30 years in the classroom and we've had to
drastically change what we do withhybrid learning through zoom and
having kids on camera and the same time
we have kids in the classroom.
and I've had students already whostruggled with, how do you read a
play when you're all reading parts,when you can't see each other and
do all of these things together,all this stuff we had to deal with.
(21:10):
And I struggled a lot this year.
I ugly cried more in the past schoolyear than I have in the past five
years, just because it was so muchof a struggle to put the passionate.
Doing what I love to do, but notbeing able to do it the way I want to.
And being on the fly, asked tocreate curriculum that has to
get posted to a virtual place forstudents to be able to access it.
(21:33):
And we didn't have ayear or two to prepare.
It's just here we go.
We're on the hitting the ground running.
I feel like I know myself andI know that I wasn't my best.
I know that there were areas I wishI could have done better on it.
Students in bursts of honesty tell mewhat they wish I had done differently.
And I take that to heart.
it wasn't done out of malice.
(21:55):
It was done out of, we just wished thatyou had done these things differently
because we don't feel as if we got thebest experience in these circumstances.
And yes, they were hardto hear, but we're human.
And as a human being, I have to finda way to redeem myself next year.
Like I have plans for how I wantto deal with things, because
now we have a year of students.
The juniors will be my seniors who spent ayear, some of them, at home and won't have
(22:18):
been in the classroom for a whole year.
How do you reacclimateto being in the building?
Will there be masks?
Will there not?
I it's just, it's avery introspective time.
transformation.
And we've talked about that too, in thepast, the idea of transforming yourself
and transformation as a whole, becomingsomeone better and someone stronger
and looking at your flaws and lookingat all the weaknesses and using that
(22:41):
as a tool to create and be more thanwhat you were before, which ties of
course, into our Wonder Woman love.
But I think all of that comesfrom, mythological transformations.
That's all the mythology was for meas a child was watching one thing,
being transformed into another, Gaiatransforming nothingness into reality.
(23:01):
Gaia becoming the earth.
All of these things.
Just transformation is like a motifthroughout the entirety of know mythology.
Boston (23:09):
That's why Ovid called it The Metamorphosis.
transformation and to transformation.
And that's the message of myththat everything is constantly in
motion and becoming something else.
It's a message of method.
The only constant in life is change, andI would argue that transformation is a
(23:30):
conscious act that everything changes, butto transform requires your participation.
David (23:37):
It's interesting that you make that connection.
I think change and transformationaren't really exactly the same.
Change happens because circumstanceshappen and we have to adapt on the fly.
But transformation, I think is aconscious choice to transform yourself.
You have to make deliberate things happen.
Yes, the day changes intonight and night changes.
(23:59):
into day that's just apart of the natural world.
But to transform takes effort.
It takes that sense of a purpose.
It takes a vision it takes reflection.
You have to look back upon yourselfand say, where have I been?
What am I doing?
And what do I need to do in the future?
And some people don't do that.
They just live day to day.
(24:19):
And I think people like yourself andme, we are people who are reflective
and transformative And in some way,whether it's conscious or not, we
look toward myth, the idea of thecollective unconscious, or just a
sense of the storytelling of theworld has always been collective.
Transformation is in every culture.
Whether it's Egyptian or Greekor Celtic or whichever, there's
(24:42):
always some natural or supernaturaltransformation that happens.
Boston (24:47):
I think there's a mystery in there.
A reason that never goes away.
our Zeit Geist right nowis so methodological and so
mechanical and technical.
And transformation somehow implies spirit.
It somehow implies an unseen force likethat something can transform that a new
(25:12):
form can take the place of an old formto truly become something different
that flies in the face of this causeand effect, back and forth world that
it seems like everyone's looking for10 ways to make your life better.
And very rarely does that involvereally looking in and reflecting
(25:37):
on who you've been, who youare and who you want to become?
That series of Wonder Woman in the mideighties, when George Perez started
writing the book, that's when themythology went really front and center.
And that I really saw Wonder Womanas this kind of awesome life coach.
one thing that comes up is that whatwas the standalone book with the Justice
(26:00):
League, where she takes out every memberof the justice league, she wraps herself.
David (26:05):
League of One.
Boston (26:06):
League of One.
Thank you.
So in Justice League of one WonderWoman wraps herself in her own lasso.
And this is part of her regularmeditation of constantly being
honest with herself and learning tohold her own contradictions and to
constantly be renewing her own souland purifying and looking at the truth.
(26:27):
And I absolutely loved.
That's the being with the truthof who we are, the warts and all.
When was the last time youwatched Clash of the Titans?
The eighties, the 1981.
David (26:40):
Probably not that long ago within the past five or six months.
within recent times,
Boston (26:46):
Oh, great.
So I rewatched it acouple of months ago also.
And first of all, I love it.
I will never not love that movie.
To Perseus is a deck
David (26:59):
Yeah.
Boston (27:00):
goes and he steals the eye from these three women like holds their
eyeball hostage and then he goes toMedusa at home and chops her head off.
That movie, there was noreflectiveness at all.
They never, it was just.
Always forward.
It was very machismo, very masculine,there was no learning involved.
(27:23):
He was gifted from the beginning,gets the presence from Zeus and
then goes and does some really awfulthings and then to marry, Andromeda.
Who's also just being blownaround by the winds of fate.
David (27:36):
it's interesting that you bring that up because as a kid.
I wouldn't say I lookedup to heroes like Perseus.
I don't think I ever looked at them thatway, but I always thought of them as
like in the heroic sense of, I didn'tknow any differently about Medusa as
far as the pity I would have for her.
Like it didn't, it neverdawned on me as a child.
(27:56):
I didn't understand the nuances ofwhat, why Athena did what she did
and and why she couldn't do anythingto preside and that kind of thing.
So the idea of Perseus slaying amonster, we always view her as a monster.
Boston (28:09):
she's ugly.
Yeah.
David (28:10):
Yeah.
and some people have tried to evensay, if Thena actually empowered
her, because they give her the powerto turn men to stone and anyone who
would look at her or try to harm her.
And I get that it is an empowerment,but the way she's been portrayed
in storytelling is more of aregressed, monstrous figure,
not an intellectual woman who.
I could walk around of her own free willand engage, and then use that only as
(28:35):
needed, rather than just this moment, youlook at her bam, you're turning to stone.
I find that looking back on the mythology,and I think we recently touched upon this.
I don't know if I think it wasthrough Twitter, the myths, the great
Greek myth series on Netflix or.
Boston (28:51):
It's on Amazon prime, The Great Greek Myths.
David (28:54):
And I really enjoyed that version of things like listening to the stories
and some things I thought were definitelydifferent from the way I remembered them.
But of course, mythology hasvariety of origins, depending
on who's telling the story.
Boston (29:05):
It's also French and there are certain cultural norms that
the French version like translationof things was holding on to.
David (29:15):
There are certain things about that and just watching the stories unfold.
It is very patriarchal.
Zeus is the center of thatuniverse for them and all of them
male figures act accordingly.
Whereas the women, thegoddesses do plenty as well.
Hara she's got her own power, butit's always Zeus and his prowess,
as I had done with my students,I call it his magic Thunderbolt.
(29:37):
That's what he taught everybody withand they're somehow impregnated.
And that's why I take such offense to.
Going back to the comics whenWonder Woman was made her daughter.
it wasn't just the change of the story.
It was an entire switch ofpatriarchal influence where
(29:58):
she never ever had that before.
And.
That's why I loved her so much.
Cause it was a matriarchal thing.
I am more into what Gaia didor what the goddess is done.
Even when Artemis transforms Actaeon, Thepower of women has always been looked upon
(30:18):
as dark in some ways as it's a negative.
Oh, she's just acting outbecause she's a woman.
Whereas the men do it and they'rebeing men, they're being it's elevated.
And I think that's where mythologyfor me is I can look at the myths and
understand them and take from them.
But like in my books, when Ihave empowered characters, the
female characters in my booksare tremendously empowered.
(30:41):
Even though they go up againstmythological whatevers, the male
heroes in the book, don't overshare.
The women at all, they actually reallywork with they, they encourage, they
learn from as it's supposed to be.
it's not just, I don't want to justbe so pro-feminist that every female
character has to be above every man, butthere has to be an equal footing there.
(31:04):
And I think that's what mythologytaught me, looking at that.
What I thought was so impressiveas a child and it was magic.
It was magic, seeing things,transforming to other things or
seeing the gods do what they do.
But then realizing as an adult that yeah,that the Greek culture was very different
than I realized it was as a child.
(31:26):
And the same thing was true with everyother culture that has mythology to it,
including Christianity, Judaism, Islam.
There's a certain storytellingthat goes along with it.
And it's the largely grosslypatriarchal and, oppressive and abusive.
And not many people like to seethat because it takes away what they
(31:47):
believe to be part of who they are.
And it challenges them.
I like that though.
I like being challenged.
I like being on the outside.
I like being on fringe.
That's where I'm happiest.
I like being one of the weird,because then I know I have a place.
but yeah, I don't know.
It's this mythic, this idea of thismythic conversation to me is when
(32:10):
I talk about this to my kids, I doan entire unit, basically from the
birth of the universe through theTrojan war to get to a particular
poem by Yeats about Leto and the Swan.
Boston (32:21):
Yes.
David (32:22):
But I do this entire storytelling to get them every time I talk
about a god, I tell a story or two,and it's all about storytelling.
And I get to the place where,that leads into the Trojan war and
what happens with Agamemnon andMenelaus and all of this stuff.
The versions of myth, and thekids are just wide-eyed they go,
how do you know all that?
(32:43):
I said, I've been teaching itforever, but it's one of my passions.
It's storytelling.
We talk about transformation and we gointo a whole side conversation about
that too, I surround myself with magicbecause that's what triggers my creativity
like drinking from the fountain.
that the muses are inspired by, I w Iwant to have, I wish Pegasus would fly by.
(33:05):
I could put wings on my dogand just let him run around.
I named my dog after Odysseus'sdog because that was an important
figure in my storytelling.
Boston (33:14):
All of my devices have mythological names, hard
drives computers, phones.
I also, there's something that triggersmy imagination and triggering my
imagination triggers a sense of mystery.
And a sense of meaning.
I just taught a course called creatingwith the gods and we were, it was
a coaching program where we use themonths of the year as a framework.
(33:37):
So you've got the gods forwhom the months are named.
So Janus, Februus, Mars, Aphrodite,Maia, and Juno, and it was so much fun
because the game really became whereour myths embedded into our language.
We're having these imagesfed to us all the time.
(33:59):
And the more you know about the stories,the more a single word can activate
a whole way of seeing the world.
It can all be magical,naming your dog Argo.
Yes, myth is magical,but myth isn't magic.
It's where fantasy is used to communicatesomething very real, very true.
(34:23):
That doesn't actually fitinto the world of facts.
At least that's how I see it.
David (34:29):
I've watched the great myths series and the last two seasons where the Trojan
War, and then of course Odysseus's return.
And I've always loved The Iliad andThe Odyssey and even The Aeneid,
which doesn't wasn't touched on.
But I love those stories because,and there's much to learn from that.
Even though Odysseus is also a Dick, hesleeps with all these other goddesses
(34:50):
and yet he wants to go home to his wife.
it's a very differentway of looking at things.
Just the things that the trials andtribulations of humanity against
greater obstacles, and they chooseto be empowered by themselves.
And the idea that at least to put it,they put it out in the series, was that
Odysseus was moving toward abandoning thegods, was more about himself and being a
(35:10):
human being and the gods felt threatenedby that idea, which makes a lot of sense.
Boston (35:16):
I thought that was a pretty inspired take on it.
I liked that a lot and I'venever heard that before.
David (35:20):
Yeah.
Me either.
And I wonder if that's, because you saidit was inspired by this French series.
I wonder if it was a Europeanversion of events that they
had taken from something else.
And I didn't look at the sourcematerial, I don't know, but
looking back on the story.
And even that really bad home, I don'tthink it was a Hallmark movie, but
it was a movie with Armando Santiago.
He played Odysseus and Isabella Rosaliniplayed Athena and it was a fun movie,
(35:44):
but it was very much the same idea thatOdysseus wanted nothing from the gods.
And the gods kept saying, we controlyou, but he's no, not really.
I think that for me, As more spiritualin my life and I am superbly religious.
Now, I feel like I'm more a control.
I take inspiration from other sources,but I don't find myself betrothed to them.
(36:07):
And I want to live my own lifeand not look to a book of texts,
whether it's the Torah or whateverto say, this is how I must live.
I think I understand Odysseus journey.
You want to do your own thing?
You want to be your own person andnot be beholden to powers greater
than you are, or have people say,no, your wisdom actually came from
(36:28):
me as a goddess of wisdom where he'ssaying, no, I think my willingness
and my cunning is really my own.
that, that sense of owning who you areand owning your own power is incredibly
for lack of a better word, empowering.
It's just, it's powerful to saythat idea of loving who you are
for all your gifts and using them.
Boston (36:57):
When you were growing up, what were some of your favorite stories?
nursery rhymes, children's books,movies, cartoons, comics, TV.
David (37:05):
The ones that stick with me the most were ones
that have a fantasy and magic.
whether I've been King Arthur or just,magical things that were beyond the normal
mythological magical stories of all types.
Boston (37:18):
Do you remember one of the first that caught your attention?
David (37:23):
Wow.
Making me think back way far.
I think the earliest memories I haveare like first storyline stories
like that are sitting in my publiclibrary, reading a book of mythology.
And that was the one thingthat stands out, not maybe
one particular myth, but just.
Stands out to me the most.
(37:44):
And that, that kindled the fire.
Boston (37:46):
Thank you.
What's something that you believeto be true that you cannot
prove, or that cannot be proven.
David (37:54):
I don't know if it can't be proven or not.
I'm unsure on this one, but I thinkthat true compassion for others can
do more than anything else in theworld, more than money, more than
anything, compassion has the most power.
And yet it is the most underutilized.
Boston (38:12):
That's beautiful.
In what ways are you the same now asyou were when you were a little kid?
David (38:20):
I'm still in love with comic books and escape and fantasy more.
Now, if not, then, thenI didn't know any better.
That was all new to me.
Now I embrace it more as a.
And the transformative part of my life.
But yeah, it's, I'm the same in that way.
I cosplay, I dress up as other characters.
Not many people will admit tothat without a sense of shame.
(38:41):
sometimes they will go, I dothis for Halloween, but no, I
have pictures of my cosplay.
My phone has a picture of my cosplay
So yeah, that's how I amthe same now, as I was then.
Boston (38:51):
Have you ever encountered a phenomenon that you just can't explain?
David (38:56):
Wow, what an open-ended question.
oh, wow.
My fear is that it's going to comeback to something nature-based or
something and in, in the truest senseof that, but there's a certain sense of.
I don't call it.
Pleasure, maybe pleasure,euphoria being out in the natural
world, that transcends reality.
(39:19):
And in a sense, it just, there'ssomething about being a part of it all.
I am not better than worse than I ammore equal to those things around me.
There's a tree there's grass,there's a lake there's me, but it's
just, I feel like I'm that one.
Yeah, I dunno how else to describeit, but I enjoy standing outside and
taking in nature in that euphoric sense.
(39:40):
Like I'm a part of the naturalworld, just as much as anything else.
If I don't know if that trulyanswers your question, but that's
what pops in my head when you asked.
Boston (39:48):
That does sound phenomenal.
And perhaps the answer is the same,but the next question is when in your
life have you experienced ecstasy?.
David (39:59):
Multiple times, I think ecstasy for me comes from when I experienced
the truest sense of joy and love.
Whether it's with other people,whether I'm alone out in the world.
there's a certain feeling that, ecstasiesor some can be considered sexual.
(40:20):
It could be other things.
It could be religious for me.
It's not so much religious, but it'swhen I experienced love in some form
or another, I feel a sense of ecstasy.
There's it's an empowerment.
Boston (40:32):
I hear love and compassion and transformation as these three core
values in you that are really infusingyour work and your life and what it
is to be a teacher and an artist, cosplayer, as we come to the end of our
time together, is there anything youwant to bring to the conversation?
(40:53):
Something we haven't hit on somethingthat's really alive for you right now.
David (40:59):
I feel like I'm at a crossroads of my life for some reason or another.
I can't.
and every time I think about that,again, going back to mythology, I
think a pack of tea and the goddessof the crossroads and opportunities.
And I'm looking to find some sort of magicor other worldly inspiration to bring me
(41:19):
across the other side of that intersectionand put me on that path somewhere.
Again, that's as I'm sure youunderstand mythology, it's not an
overt religious experience per se,like the ancient Greeks had, but it's
an embodiment of the intangible thingsof the things in the world that we
embrace are mythical and magical.
I feel like I'm looking towards somethingcoming that I don't know yet what it is,
(41:43):
but I know that I'm at that crossroadsand I need to be respectful to myself
and others for that I need to pay homage.
I need to, I don't worship Hecate butI feel like I need to respect the world
and in all of its energy in order to moveme forward and get me to where I need.
Boston (42:00):
Such an interesting place to be in life.
I feel like we're there collectively,at the end of this long Dar
year, that has lasted a century.
So many of us are questioning futurepaths and that sense of crossroads and
you and I are both kind of midlife.
(42:21):
And so we're also at that point of, okay,we've done and we've succeeded where we've
succeeded and we failed where we failedand there's this other half of life ahead.
What's that going to look like?
Hecate is a really wonderfulone to bring into that too.
She's the goddess of the crossroad.
She's also a goddess of willpower.
I think being curious and open tothe force of Hecate is a really
(42:44):
potent, powerful place to be.
It's too bad.
She's got such a bad rap because of theChristian association with witchcraft
and such, but she's a powerful figureand a connection to the subconscious.
She's one of the ones who could movebetween the underworld and the earth.
David (43:04):
Well, she was, I think from a certain stories have told she was the
ruler of the underworld perfor Hades.
Boston (43:09):
Oh, I haven't read that story.
David (43:11):
I had a few times, she's also a part of that triad of
Hecate, Demeter, and Persephone.
It's the triple goddess figure.
And it's also a transformation.
At a crossroads, it's a placeto transform your journey.
so there's all sorts of things andwe could spend hours discussing this.
I don't get many people who understandand appreciate the mythic like you do.
(43:32):
You're the first, if anyone ever askedme, who's someone you would talk to
about mythology in general, the firstperson would be you because I've known
that about you for such a long time.
So that's one of the aspects of you thatI think I admire is that you embrace that.
Boston (43:47):
Oh, I'm honored.
Thank you.
it's it is the love of my lifeand this is a niche conversation.
And I am finding that there are peoplewho love it and who want to have it.
And because it is so obscure, youtalk to somebody at a party about
this and their eyes just glazeover and what is wrong with you?
But then you find somebody,you say Hecate and their eyes
(44:09):
light up like, oh, Who's that?
That's what this podcast is about.
Like, how do I find,where are, where are they?
Where are our people thatwe can really have this
conversation and go deep into it.
if people want to find you online orread your books, where can they go?
David (44:26):
the books are on Amazon.
If you look up David burger TaskForce, Gaea Gaea spelt with an E.
You can find me on Twitter is @mrdbergerand Instagram is inspired Gemini.
Boston (44:46):
That's today's show.
Thank you again, David Berger forbeing on the podcast, for being one of
the first interviews that I ever did.
And thank you to our listeners.
I'm so glad you're here.
Like I said at the beginning of theepisode, I'm about to start a series
of Zoom sessions where we can talkabout the intersection of mythology and
(45:09):
personal development and pop culture.
You can find more informationabout that at my website,
bostonblake.com or mythic podcast.com.
You'll want to subscribeto the newsletter.
That's where I'll release updates and moreinformation and topics that we'll discuss.
mythic podcast.com is also whereyou can find more episodes,
(45:30):
more information about the show.
If you are enjoying the podcast, I hopeyou will consider leaving us some stars
wherever you get your podcasts andconsider sharing it with your friends.
Until next time, journey on.
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