May 13, 2023 • 49 mins
Welcome to Mythic, where we explore meaningful living through the power of myth, including topics that span ancient lore, modern popular culture, and depth psychology. I'm your host, Boston Blake.
Monica Mody, PhD - Decolonizing Mythology
About Monica Mody
Dr. Monica Mody is a transdisciplinary poet, educator and theorist working at the intersections of embodied regenerative consciousness, earth-based wisdom, and decolonial frameworks of wholeness. She is the author of KALA PANI and a forthcoming poetry collection BRIGHT PARALLEL. She holds a Ph.D. in East-West Psychology from the California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS), an M.F.A. in Creative Writing from the University of Notre Dame, and a B.A. LL.B. from the National Law School of India University. Her doctoral dissertation was awarded the Kore Award for Best Dissertation in Women and Mythology. Dr. Mody currently serves as Adjunct faculty in the Women's Spirituality Program at CIIS as well as in the Mythological Studies Program at the Pacifica Graduate Institute, and as core faculty in the Doctoral Program in Visionary Practice and Regenerative Leadership at Southwestern College Santa Fe. She was born in Ranchi, India, and lives in San Francisco (Ramaytush Ohlone territory).
Key Moments
- 05:03 A very brief history of the Partition of India
- 11:46 Musings on kintsugi
- 14:05 Marija Gimbutas and goddesses of matriarchal societies
- 15:14 Athena’s role in the myth of Medusa
- 19:02 Saraswati and her wild river origins
- 27:43 Sita Sings the Blues
Links for further exploration
- Tusheeta/Tushita, or, Joyous Motherlines - Dr. Monica Mody
- A Note on Writing “Sarasvati” - Dr. Monica Mody
- Sarasvati—a poem by Monica Mody - YouTube
- Website of Dr. Monica Mody
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Boston (00:19):
Hello, and welcome to mythic.
Thank you for listening.
my download numbers havegone much higher recently.
I don't know what's happened,especially with the infrequency of
the podcast, but whoever is out there.
Thank you for listening andplease find me on social media.
I'd love to have a conversation around thepodcast and learn who's listening and why.
(00:42):
My guest today is the brilliantand talented doctor Monica Mody.
She is a poet.
And a writer and a theorist and educatorand her work crosses borders and genres.
She was born in Ranchi, India and nowlives in San Francisco where she got
her PhD in East-west Psychology from theCalifornia Institute of Integral Studies.
(01:06):
She also holds an MFA in creative writingfrom the university of Notre Dame.
And a bachelor of arts and laws from theNational Law School of India University.
Her doctoral dissertation receivedthe 2020 Kore Award for best
dissertation in Women and Mythologyawarded by the Association for
the Study of Women and Mythology.
Monica's poetry has appearedin numerous literary journals.
(01:29):
Her critical work advances Earth basedand decolonial feminist worldviews.
She teaches as core faculty at thePhD program and Visionary Practice
and Regenerative Leadership atSouthwestern College, Santa Fe.
And as adjunct faculty at the School ofConsciousness and Transformation at CIIS.
She has studied and circled withelders, wisdom keepers, and medicine
(01:50):
holders from many earth based andindigenous traditions, developing
an interconnected worldview rootedin ancestral healing practices.
And in this conversation withMonica, you're going to hear the
relationship between myth andcolonialism and decolonization.
So let's get to it.
Here is Dr.
(02:10):
Monica Mody.
Monica (02:17):
I'm so glad to be taking this time with you to talk about myth and story.
Boston (02:22):
Myth and story.
What do you want people to know about youand your relationship to myth and story?
Monica (02:29):
You know, it's interesting because as an artist, my primary
role so far has been as a poet.
And not as a narrative poet, a poetwho really operates in experimental
registers and works with the rhythmand beat and music and metaphor.
(02:54):
So it's interesting that especiallywhen I was working on my doctoral
dissertation, I found myself reallycircling back to this gap that I
had in my own expressive context.
like that of narrative.
My academic work then in some waysbecame about locating where the gap,
(03:19):
the breakage, in story and storytellinghappened for me in a community, a
collective and personal context.
That feels like a very resonantplace to begin For a long time why
this was not something that was veryfacile or easy for me to step into.
Boston (03:39):
So it was difficult for you to step into narrative,
step into storytelling.
And so this was the gap in yourability to express poetically.
Did I understand that correctly?
Monica (03:48):
Poetically or as a writer to as it kept going through the research
tunnels, I'm sure you understand theseresearch tunnels where they take you.
Boston (03:58):
It's a never ending Byzantine conduit of information from every
direction piling on top, and somehowideas get put into words on paper.
Yeah.
Monica (04:09):
Exactly.
And what if, what about that engineinside of yourself, which does
not really not allow you to stopfrom going inside that Byzantine?
Boston (04:19):
Yep.
Yes.
Monica (04:21):
So as I was doing that, I started making certain connections, Like my
family, my mother's side of the family hadmoved from what is now Pakistan into what
is now India at the time of the partition.
And I started realizing that therewas a way in which this whole episode
(04:42):
of the partition of India, which isin some ways it's a horrific, It's
part of something really big andtragic that happened in South Asia.
And then it was buried.
It was buried collectively until prettyrecently where a few people are beginning
to talk about it and addressing it.
Boston (05:03):
What is it that happened?
Monica (05:05):
Well, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, they were part of the British empire.
Boston (05:11):
Yes.
Monica (05:11):
in the colonized period and right as the British were exiting the area,
they created this I'm giving you a verysimple and reductive version of this,
but there was an artificial line that wasdrawn creating three separate countries.
(05:32):
So that region, that area, which wasimaginally one unified, suddenly had
political demarcations and they wereEast Pakistan and West Pakistan, East
Pakistan later on became Bangladesh,but these two were given to the Muslims.
(05:52):
This is what colonization did andmany parts of the world, they were
operating on a divide and rule policy.
So in India, there are divisionhappened specifically along religious
lines and the colonial project hadstarted instituting that had really
started emphasizing the divisions fromthe beginning of the 20th century.
(06:15):
So by the time the petition happened,there were undergone isms that ran deep
in the collective psyche not for everyone,but there was definitely enough of an
atmosphere of fear, collective fearthat was created that even though India
identified itself as secular, it's stillwas more I don't know if feasible as a
(06:37):
word, but Many Muslims felt they wouldwant to move from India to Pakistan.
And many Hindus felt it would be safer forthem to move from from Pakistan to India.
Boston (06:48):
So these lines actually They created something.
they rooted divisions.
Monica (06:54):
They changed the national myth, This is the biggest mass
migration in the history of the world.
And it's surprising to me that, morepeople don't know about it, but it's
not surprising when I think about whathappened in the post-colonial period,
especially in India, where we were sobusy as a nation, trying to be modern,
(07:15):
that we swept all the pain and thetrauma and the wound under the carpet.
We didn't even discuss it.
And that became a partof my family wound too.
It's oh, what happened?
The part of my family lost its lands,lost its history, lost family members.
And there was no talk about this.
(07:36):
So that's the rupture in narrativethat I realized was going on.
Boston (07:40):
Oh, wow.
I'm just sitting with that.
this conversation is happening withmyth and story in the background.
When you lose connection with narrative,you lose connection with the land,
with history with with a sense of placeand family, and that's hearing it so
(08:00):
personally that really brings it home.
It's one thing to have this as anabstract concept and conversation,
it's something very differentbecause it did happen so quickly.
This is not something thathappened over centuries.
It's something that happenedin a matter of a decade.
Monica (08:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the movements, the migration waspretty compressed maybe over a couple
of years, two, three years, and...
Boston (08:28):
wow.
Monica (08:30):
yeah.
Boston (08:31):
This is making the quote that started this conversation.
You said to stake your claim overculture, your cultural practice.
You have to tell your stories.
Ultimately mythology isabout place and belonging.
as you've now engaged in thisin, in storytelling as access to
(08:56):
filling these gaps, filling thisgap, What have you discovered?
Monica (08:59):
When I wrote that, I hadn't contributed this lacuna.
I think I can only like reconstructwhat was really playing for me when
playing up for me when I wrote that.
But the other piece of this is,that in this book, in this lifetime,
I'm sure in the body of a woman.
And in south Asia in particular thewhole terrain of mythology more and more
(09:29):
has been usurped by people who are veryxenophobic, nationalistic, fundamentalist,
so there's this context of oppression andit's not unrelated to what I discovered
later because to the course of my doctoralresearch, because in fact the colonization
and nationalism I really related.
(09:50):
There's that, but there's also,something about the power of the
imagination, the power of retrieval,and that's where then we talk about
something like story and myth there.
And then they're potent forces.
Even when there has a lot of hurt, evenwhen there is a lot of rupture, there are
(10:17):
still always going to be ways to connectthe pieces even through the fragments.
In my academic work I talked aboutre mythologizing, this idea that
we can gather together the pieces.
And and again, this is I think forfor women in patriarchy and in, in
(10:38):
a patriarchal context better, butalso like patriarchal colonial.
There's so many layers of capitalism.
There's like layers andlayers of oppression, right?
Like certain bodies, certain voices,certain experiences, certain ways
of knowing have always been castaside, always these been othered.
So this is not new practice, right?
(11:00):
Like you, as someone who's beenstudying that, you probably
know this intimately, right?
There's this way in which wewant to reach out to whatever
myth is, whatever mythology is.
It's this it's very, reallytalking about something that
emerged from an ancestral context.
(11:24):
Like it came from who, who was the first?
Who were the authors of the first myth?
The first myths.
So were they the shamans?
Were they the medicine peopleand the seekers and the seers and
the, the oracles, who were they?
And what was really going on there whenthese myths became the codes that contain
(11:44):
so much information about cultures.
So I'm, in some ways I ardentlybelieve that these codes are not lost.
We just have to figure outhow they can heal and restore
us today, because the, yeah.
Colonialism capitalism, patriarchy.
They're always going to try totake over that space, but we still
(12:06):
have something in us and that'slinked to our creative capacities.
Boston (12:11):
Oh, there's so much in there.
Stepping back that the image of fragmentsthat you laid down, it made me think
of this, of kintsugi, the Japanese artof repair, where you have the pieces
of a shattered, shattered pot, andthen you put it in a mold and you.
Fill in the gaps with goldand then it has structure.
(12:34):
It's use, it's usable again,it's a pot, but it is something
different from what it was.
It still has all of the elements ofthe original, but also something else.
And it's stronger, more uniqueand its history is then included.
That fracturing is a part of its story.
(12:54):
And I'm now thinking about how myth movesthrough centuries and how myth is always
reflecting the culture that it comes from,but the same stories, a few centuries
apart might be very different stories.
Hera is a goddess that very muchinterests me in Greek mythology.
(13:16):
And one of the things that interestsme is that Hera's temples are
older than Zeus's in that region.
And so this starts to suggest thather reverence goes back further.
The stories that we hear today, Hera isone a one-note wonder she's like a goddess
of jealousy, which strikes me as insane.
(13:42):
if you take that same story,she could also become a goddess
of enforcement of contracts.
Something more like Freya that sheis the Punisher of broken vows.
And then is a power goddess whois standing up to patriarchy.
She may not be able to challengeit directly, but she can
attempt to contain it's impact.
(14:05):
The point is that mythology how we tellthe same stories, you can reconstitute
those fragments in different ways.
What are some myths thatare on your mind right now?
Monica (14:18):
Oh that's a great question.
But, and I also want to quickly say,this is the, you touched on two important
points that I resonate with so much,the idea that when you bring the
fragments together, it's something new.
the gold that connects them, allowsomething else to, and what is that gold?
(14:38):
And yeah, the idea that mids changeover time and You were talking about
para do you know the work of MarijaGimbutas this archaeo-mythologist.
Boston (14:49):
I do not, please educate me.
Monica (14:51):
So Marija Gimbutas was a more central figure to in archeology.
And then when she started makingcontroversial claims that there was in the
Western civilization before the gods, themale gods became part of the dominant way
of culture, there was a different past--exactly what you're saying, that there
(15:14):
were feminine goddesses and matriarchalsocieties that were peaceful and, that
centered mutual nurture and cooperation,and she started making these claims.
She was slowly marginalized and herwork is only now been remembered.
But I think again as a womanwho this idea of reclaiming.
(15:38):
myth off the goddesses from theirtellings which again, cast them only
in such a narrow and almost demoniclight sometimes, or not demonic but
they're either shrews or, like thisone note wonder that you mentioned.
I love for instance, themyth of Medusa, right?
Boston (15:59):
One of my favorite stories and very complicated and problematic.
Monica (16:02):
Yeah.
And Athena's role in that.
What it does to the relationship betweenwomen, So for me, part of Medusa's myth
is also, I'm going to also say HélèneCixous who came in and talked about
Medusa's laughter in, in her book.
And she used that to tell the women,they have to write, we have to take
(16:25):
back this narrative space back forourselves because we are part of that,
I think that's very fertile space,Like that these mythic figures and.
Outside in, not just operating in thisobjective mythic field, but they're really
(16:46):
affecting us and interacting with us.
And that's in, in that mutual, inthe space of mutual interaction is
where we can make changes happen.
Boston (16:57):
What is the book you're referencing about Medusa,
Monica (17:00):
It's called The Laugh of Medusa.
Boston (17:02):
Laugh of Medusa?
Monica (17:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yeah.
Boston (17:06):
I will link to that in the show notes and I will read it myself.
I have been there's a, anothermyth podcast it's called.
Let's talk about myths, baby.
And the hostess is is LivAlbert and she's amazing.
And she is a hardcore defender ofMedusa and I really love her take.
And it has me slipping intothe imaginal around Medusa and
(17:29):
specifically Ovid's version of Athenatransforming her as retribution.
And I thought, what if, what wouldit, what could a story be like where
Athena is actually empowering Medusa?
What could this look like?
Where Medusa never wants to be touchedby a man, the way that she has been
(17:53):
abused by this god and what might be a Sw what could a sister action be in here?
These goddess says if Athena cannotgo against the king of the gods, but
she can somehow affect this path,but then it, and then Perseus become.
The enemy, purse Perseus becomes this manwho puts an end to this immortal creatures
(18:16):
life, maybe as retribution against Athena.
it's a story idea, but this iswhat happens when a myth comes up.
when I was a kid, I loved this story.
When I was a kid, it was just the hero,Perseus, killing the monster Medusa.
She's big and snaky and ugly.
And why shouldn't she die?
That's the thinking of a seven year old
Monica (18:38):
Right,
Boston (18:38):
creepy.
And then you get to this point.
Wait a minute.
She was just minding her ownbusiness and dude comes in with
a lops her and lops her head off.
So let's unpack that what's going on,what tradition is being upheld and
how could that story be revisioned?
Anyway, I'm just playing with ideas here.
Monica (18:58):
But that's a potency, I think that you can be visionary and people.
And so many writers I'm thinkingof do you know the book?
So C by Madeline Miller.
Boston (19:07):
I've read it three times.
I
Monica (19:08):
Oh, wow.
Boston (19:09):
much.
I love Madeline Miller and the songof Achilles is my other favorite.
Monica (19:13):
This is happening where people are really going there and
interacting with these figures.
But I wanted also take a step back.
So I grew up in a differentcountry, a different context, right?
Like a different like mythic context.
And I was a voraciousreader when I was a child.
For me the distinction between realityand books and an imagination, it,
it was very hard for me to make thatdistinction in some days, because I spent
(19:38):
so much time in books and with books.
But also the children's magazinesand books and that I was reading
and Hindi and an English.
There is this mutabilityin the mythology in India.
I find it very hard topinpoint, this is the story.
(19:59):
This is the story.
Because again there's, it's possiblethat a thousand different versions of
the same myth exist from region to regionfrom sub-community to sub community.
And that, that diversity of courseis what is at risk right now
under the nationalist government.
But but because I grew up there forme, sometimes I get very restless.
(20:23):
I'm like, oh, I don't evenwant to like the bone.
Off the mainstream narrative.
I don't even wanna operate within that.
So the there's a poemthat I wrote recently.
And I wrote it for, and for a projectcalled An Exaltation of Goddesses and
the project was in fact commemoratingMarija Gimbutas with us as work.
(20:48):
And even though Gimbutas'swork is centered more on west
Western Europe the project itselfinvited cutting international
poets from all over the world.
And so the FIGO the deity the.
Spirit I interacted with wasSaraswati and Saraswati, in Indian
(21:09):
mythological slash religion.
Religious context is a very it's she'spresented as a pretty demure civilized.
And, she's varying like silk saris andshe has this graceful, gentle, demeanor.
And as I was doing my research towrite this poem, I started realizing,
she gets her name from a river, whichvanished and the river itself is, like
(21:38):
the Hindu restaurant, the nationalistsin India are using that river in a
way that I don't at all buy into.
But at the same time, that river, if youlook at the descriptions of the river,
she's portrayed as wild unbridled.
(21:59):
She is just like storming down,storming through the lands
and creating new pathways.
And so for me, I was like, I'm goingto, really break apart the bones of that
story, where Sarasota has to be dosedsolid and Muir, and has to move with
that yeah, with this feminine grace whichleaves the wild and the completely natural
(22:26):
uninhibited aspects of her outside.
So I started with her as a river and I,it's for me, I think that was so freeing.
Saraswati is wild, because again,Saraswati is the wisdom goddess,
Sophia in the best and panty.
And so that wisdom hasto look a certain way.
(22:46):
No, for me, if the roots of it comefrom nature, the roots of it come from
there, that terrain, which is yeah.
Lush and yeah,
Boston (22:56):
You're speaking to something that is pervasive across pantheons and across
religions and mythologies as patriarchythese powerful forces, these powerful
feminine forces, whether it's a riveror an earth goddess or reproductive
capacity itself, it becomes ma it becomesreduced and made demure and fitting
(23:20):
underneath the patriarchal umbrella.
And of course, these arewild forces of nature.
They're recognized as goddesses, verylikely because they were untamable.
Mysterious.
And something we couldn't control.
We were at the mercy of, butthen they get told into stories.
(23:41):
They get turned into humannarratives where so often the woman
nest, the woman identity, I don'teven want to call it femininity.
That's not right.
But the woman, they become embodiedas a woman and then in a patriarchal
role and yet, and then you tell methis story about connecting with
(24:03):
the wildness of the river itself.
She's still under there.
Saraswati is who's wearing that sari?
this is not someone to be fuckedwith It's so fun to play with these.
When you were a child, what wereyour favorite stories growing
(24:23):
up and where did you find them?
Monica (24:25):
Oh gosh, it was so polyamorous, my vote stories, and that, that
question is still something that I'm in.
I'm never able to answerthat question favorite?
No, but I'll tell you, I'm so gratefulthat there were these repositories
of myth and folk tale that.
Published being published at the time.
So there were these books, these magazineschildren's magazine in India, Nandan and
(24:51):
gosh, Chandra forgetting the name of that.
But there was a bottle Chitra,cathartic sorry to anyone who is from
India and listening to this this.
You forgot the names, but there werethese children's magazines, which would
come out either once a month are, twice amonth and they would have these stories.
(25:14):
I'm, the name thatI'm trying to think of?
It's on all now.
We're dying.
Chitra is picto.
So these are picture stories.
For me that was onething that was happening.
I was reading.
I grew up in a small town and itwas one of the towns in India, which
actually had a British council library.
So I was reading a lot ofBritish books for children also.
(25:37):
And then this is around the time and thenational television of India, which was
. There was only one channel at the time.
It had just started broadcastingthere's so much analysis that has
been done of how that was a projectof knitting the nation together.
(25:57):
And, how this one version thencontinued to supersede all other
versions of that myth, but that'swhat you would do every Sunday.
We would all sit around thetelevision and watch it.
Remember I grew up in a very small town, Iwas picking up all these pieces from also
the conversations that we would have inthe communities, but that my parents were
(26:22):
a part of and there, again, storytellingwould happen in a different way.
It was rich in some ways.
And also I think, again, it had a verynarrow version of femininity, but more,
it doesn't really answer your question.
Boston (26:38):
But it does.
And these picture books, that picturestories, I'm imagining something akin to
comic books, something you named threelevels of story that were impacting you.
There are these picture books that you'rereading and consuming for entertainment
and the library, which you were drawnto, there is a dialogue happening
(26:59):
with your parents and storytellingis happening in a very human way.
People telling stories as in a culturalway, but then also this very interesting.
The Ramayan through a single network,spreading a national story, the United
States, our version of that was we hadthree networks that all told us variations
(27:19):
on the same news narrative, before cable.
And it did feel like a morecohesive culture at that time.
There was a more cohesive America whenthe narrative Was more tightly contained.
More viewpoints add more complexity.
Did I miss anything in there where theremovies that you were seeking out or
(27:40):
other types of entertainment, narrative?
Monica (27:42):
One thing I do want to mention as you were talking, I
realized there was actually anotherclass of stories that was in there,
Is stories from Russia.
So interestingly enough, because Indiaand Russia were very close at that time.
This is where we're still talking about.
I think when it was still USSR rightbefore the are right around the time when
(28:05):
yeah, the break the breakup happened,
Boston (28:07):
So early, mid 1980s.
Monica (28:09):
yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So because of the close connectionspolitically, between India and USSR, there
were all these like books, Russian books.
So they were also feeding my imagination.
So I think, even though we had thenational through language and just, that.
Through line had just started coming invia mass media, This is the role that
(28:33):
television played globally in some ofthese capturing their imagination and
saying, this is the only way to do story.
But because the cauldron was soalready in, in some ways rich with
complexity, which I think is a verypost-colonial phenomenon in some days.
it's the idea that you're findingyourself in a society where there's
(28:53):
many different versions of how tobe human and what the world is these
exist in, in such a complicated way.
I think that really liberatesimagination in a way.
Boston (29:07):
I agree.
It becomes pantheistic insteadof monotheistic, one, one path
to expression versus many paths,finding other ways to identify.
While we're in this particular realm, isthere any myth or fairy tale or a story
from any place in your life that has hada particularly powerful impact on you?
Monica (29:32):
I remember when I first saw Sita Sings the Blues, it's a
movie by, do you know that movie?
Boston (29:42):
No.
Monica (29:43):
I loved that movie because.
Yeah, it just takes, Sita's myth andopens the top and puts it in a different
context and makes her a blues singerand gives her agency, gives her a voice.
This is something that I knowit's been because many of the
figures, seminal figures in Indianmythology are also are pretty.
(30:07):
Again, docile are pretty linear insome ways are, they are operating
mostly not for their own ends, not
As their own agents, but onbehalf of men to free men, to
help out men, things like that.
So I think this, I know it's beena look at the work of writers from
(30:28):
India, women writers from Indiaeither now or are in the last, I
think since independence, right?
Since they're in independenceit's remains really valid.
It remains like this through-linethe wants that we want
to reclaim these figures.
We want these feminine figures, Wewant these women to be more than.
(30:51):
How they were written down how they weretextualized because it's in the oral
traditions of the myths that they'rereally alive and they have more agency.
You have so many differentversions of Sita already, right?
Like in the oral myths, butit's been they're written down.
When we started telling stories, butmaybe it wasn't the telling stories,
(31:12):
but maybe it was by who was writingdown these stories that some of
the deformities started happening.
Boston (31:21):
There's something really poetic in that too.
Just in that, once you writesomething down, you capture
it and contain it in a frozen.
When you're telling a story, wetell stories for particular reasons.
There's you don't just start talking.
Maybe I do sometimes but generallyif you're bringing up a story it's
(31:42):
to teach or to explain or describe,and it's relevant to that moment and
it, and these, if we're pulling onmyth to do it, we're pulling on great
deep ancient imagery and archetype.
We're going straight for the soul.
When you write it down, it's runningthrough the intellect This may not
(32:02):
be true with poetry, but it does havean intellectual component, but it's
a soulful practice the way I hear it.
Anyway, my point is.
There's something about freezinga myth in time and freezing these
characters in time that ultimatelycontains and controls them.
And maybe both the men and the womenthat these are wild forces that somehow
(32:28):
humans, by writing them down, theywant to have some kind of dominion
over them as opposed to embodying them.
Monica (32:34):
It's so interesting what you said about stories being told for a
particular reason, That changed when westarted telling stories for entertainment.
Boston (32:46):
Yes.
Monica (32:47):
That's part of, modernity's myth, again, we're talking, I'd come
back to the middle of modernity,which removes the sacred as something
that's needed to connect a communitytogether to tie a community together,
to, give purpose to human life.
And also theater there's again,in different parts of India
(33:09):
they've always been regional reforms of ritual theatre, right?
And these, this ritual theatre whichtells off the mythic stories that are
particular to that region, they're not.
It's supposed to be entertaining.
They're supposed to enact very significantmoments in that culture's timeline.
(33:34):
So they could be seasonal moments.
For instance, in their villages ofHimalaya's they enact the goddess
coming home coming back to herfather's house at particular moments
and there's like Petro, but that'salso tied into the harvest season,
So it could be seasonal, but it couldalso be related to rights of passage.
(33:58):
And we've lost that, in secular modernity,in colonial modernity, you've lost
so much of what it was to knit thecommunity together through the stories.
Boston (34:09):
It's such an excellent point.
And one of the things that's reallyinteresting this superhero movie
phenomenon, which I am really, I wasenjoying, I am still enjoying it.
I am a comic book kid.
So there, this is what happenswhen the nerds grow up and get the
power and the money and it's, butthey are not of a particular place.
(34:33):
They play with big ideas, butthey're all the same note.
You do get interesting things thathappened with something like Black
Panther and Wonder Woman that reallydo empower marginalized groups and
really make a point of re-imagininga world that's different, but I think
in general, and it's not just thesuperhero movies, it's movies in general.
(34:55):
It's how do we make the mostmoney possible on a global scale?
So what is going to be palatable to theUnited States, China, India, Russia,
and offend as few people as possible.
And because America does drivethis machine, it all has this
underlying very American machismofor lack of a better word.
(35:22):
I'm just thinking, yeah, that'ssomething is lost when when a
story is not tied to a place whenit's not emerging out of a place.
And this is back to what you said andmythology is about place and belonging.
Monica (35:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this whole Americanizationand globalization it's of course,
it's a very real phenomenon.
We it's really affected many of theminor stories and the minor myths.
Even right here in, in the us, w how manyindigenous myths do we know about right.
(35:58):
Local place-based myths,
Boston (36:00):
you know,
where they went, bugs bunny cartoons,the Tasmania, the Tasmanian devil,
the trickster, the Southwest imagery.
There are there local folklore isin the old Looney tunes cartoons.
And this,
Monica (36:15):
know that is hilarious.
Boston (36:17):
it just it hit me recently when I was my father deeply involved
in the Lakota Sioux traditionsand has a wealth of knowledge.
And he was telling me some storiesabout coyote, the trickster character.
And I'm like, this is Wiley coyote.
This is the coyote Roadrunner situation.
(36:37):
And I started looking like this holds up.
These stories that they did not havea written tradition, native American
we call it folklore mythology.
It was an oral tradition.
And now we don't even have thelanguages to tell the stories.
The languages have been lost.
So many of them,
Monica (36:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the loss of language andthe loss of knowledge are really
tied together in some days.
But I do want to mention, andit's interesting because I don't
want to also dis the writtenform because it's so important.
We talk about preservation.
So a couple of years ago, I was at thebook launch of this book called When a
(37:17):
Mountain Was Made and it's a collectionof stories by Greg Sarris and I'm
forgetting he's from the, I think he'sfrom California and the Sonoma state.
again, the beautiful stories, butwhat happens is even as he was reading
(37:37):
the stories, I found my brain gettingconflict reconfigured, because again,
stories are like, even if they made itto Looney tunes or whatever, but they
didn't go with the worldview intact.
That's what got lost.
And also like a desert beautiful book.
There, there are a couple of presses inparticular in India, which are really
(38:00):
trying to get the indigenous storiesin the indigenous myths written down.
There's a book called I think it'scalled the nightlife of trees,
which is all about how, yeah.
It's all about trees and it's about the.
How trees come alive at night in adifferent way when than in the daytime.
So it's so important, right?
(38:21):
That we don't just rely on them.
The main, if we are interested in mythand how do we even broaden which myths
we find ourselves in conversation withbecause they are tied into worldview.
And I think that's where the fact thatwe find ourselves in the predicament, we
are globally comes in because What a lotof the Hollywood superhero stories are
doing, they are talking about some realperils that the world is facing right now.
(38:47):
But of course they aredecontextualizing it.
And they are, pulling out someelements and absolutely they are.
they're doing it to make money.
There's something very wrongwith the world right now.
Why is it that these corporateforces, these multi-millionaires like,
why is it that they're getting todictate our world in a certain way?
(39:08):
Where do the answers come from and yes,maybe Hollywood has some ons and there
won't be enough and that's what complexitytheory also says, the answers will have
to come from that place of complexity.
No single individual or entity orgroup that ever have all the answers.
Boston (39:28):
What is something that, that you believe to be true in the
world that you just can't prove?
Monica (39:33):
Let me start with a story and then I'll maybe answer that question.
So I was writing this chapteron voice for my dissertation.
There, I talk a lot about narrativeand I talk a lot about the stories that
have been cut off and the ancestralrelationships that have been cut off.
And I was researching this placewhere my nanny there, my grandmother's
(39:58):
family came from in, in whatis now Pakistan and the places
So I was know, looking at the Wikipedia.
I was trying to study the geography andstring to see what kind of mountains
were there and things like that.
Like really trying to immerse myself inthat region to activate my imagination.
I didn't know what was going on.
I was doing my research, sodefinitely in those tunnels.
(40:20):
And then I came across this onereference in an entry about the
mountains in that area that thiswhich called the Shita legend says
still lives on those mountains.
And somehow, you know how it is when youS you grabbed, you don't even know why,
but I was entranced with two sheet them.
(40:45):
So I was like, I need to knoweverything I can about tissue down.
So I did my, I didn't make Googletrawling and I'm very good at that.
And that was the only sentence offound in some 50 places, but I didn't
find anything else about Toshi bounds.
So this search for her, and then animaginable connection with Toshiba
(41:08):
on the mountain and her relationshipwith the village and, her relationship
with the women in the villagethat became like a 10 page poem.
And a few months later I was going toread that poem at a reading in Oakland.
And so I was like, okay, I just wantto go and check that page again.
And it was a Wikipedia page andthat entry had been deleted or
(41:34):
it was no longer to be found.
And I couldn't find that sentenceanywhere on the internet after that.
Like talking about something extraordinarythat really wanted to be known coming
through and, I had copied and pastedthat, that, and that, that sentence
is actually in my dissertation.
Like I have the citation, I have the URL,I have everything, but it's gone now.
(41:57):
It's only in thatartifact, which is my home.
Which is why I feel like if there'ssomething behind the curtain that
wants to be known, it'll figureout its way, even through this
technological morass, that navigating,
Boston (42:16):
That does.
She wanted to be preserved,wanted to be kept and herd.
And then the veil closed.
Will you send me a link to that poem?
I'll include it in the show notes.
I would love to read it.
Monica (42:31):
The, it is published, but it's published in a print magazine.
And it's going to be included in mycollection that's coming out in a month
or two months, a couple of months.
So unfortunately it'snot online right now,
Boston (42:44):
Then they'd give me a link to that publication when it's
ready and we'll get that out there.
Monica (42:49):
yeah.
Boston (42:50):
I'm imagining you, the, you I'm talking to right now and the little
girl who was reading those picture booksand then also going to the library.
Monica (43:01):
one of my favorite things to do if I even now is to stay up on
light reading and I have to say it,fantasy and not scifi as much, but yeah.
Fantasy and mythological booksremain favorite but there's this
awareness that there's something.
Other than this world.
I feel like for a while, in my twenties,because I was trying to fit in and I was
(43:26):
trying to lead the conventional life.
I lost the sense of awe and wonder,but the older I grow, I find myself
connecting with that childlikesense of wow, this is our world.
And that magic more.
So I feel like if you had asked me thisquestion 10 years ago, I don't know what
(43:46):
I would have said, but now I would say,I feel like a kinship with that child
now, like with that sense of wonder.
So
Boston (43:52):
Have you ever experienced a phenomenon that you just can't explain?
Monica (44:00):
All the time.
So part of it is like the more, andI really do believe that, right?
Like the more we open ourselvesto magic and synchronicity,
the more we're gonna see that.
And so Young's notion of synchronicitythat that really is that connection
between different phenomena in the worldand that everything in the universe
is alive and is trying to talk to us,which of course is a Jungian notion,
(44:25):
but also if you look at it from ananimist perspective, It goes even deeper.
I think I'm opening myself to that lensand to that way of being more and more.
And the more I do that,I have that happen.
Plus I actually couple of years ago, twoor three years after I started my doctoral
program at CIIS, I actually studied.
(44:47):
And that was my leap of faith.
I started studying the, this WestAfrican diviner and teacher Dr.
Malidoma Some.
And I really studied inthat cosmology deeply.
And I became a diviner in that tradition.
So as a diviner you are, you'rereally sitting in front of the
(45:08):
community and saying, I'm going tocall on the ancestors on your behalf.
And there's specific technologiesby which you do that.
So when I'm sitting with people, I've hadinformation come through that I would have
no way of knowing, but it's because I'veestablished that context as a diviner.
it's a job that's entailstremendous responsibility.
(45:31):
It's not to be done lightly at all.
So I do not take it lightly.
I take it very seriously.
And ritually, so I had that happentoo, where, I really find myself
saying something and the otherperson is wow, this is accurate.
Boston (45:46):
Extraordinary.
That's an entire line of conversation.
I'd like to if you're open toit, have another conversation
specifically about divining, aboutwhat it is to be a diviner are
you
Monica (45:57):
would be fantastic.
Yeah.
Boston (45:58):
And so my last of these five questions is when in your
life have you experienced ecstasy.
Monica (46:04):
Oh well, dancing remains a big portal of ecstasy for me.
I'm not very trustful of disembodiedecstatic practices at all.
It's when I started dancing seriously.
And I started dancing once a weekbecause I was given the information in a
(46:24):
ceremony that you have to do this right.
But when I started doing that, I started,it changed understanding how the body is
one energy field in many energy fields.
And I think if we look deeper at, ecstasyis not merely about happiness or an
elevated expression of that, but I thinkit's it's something that enables you to
(46:49):
see the world as a alive and connected.
Yeah, that's a big one for me.
Boston (46:57):
Thank you.
It, I really hear that.
It's interesting.
The, everybody I've asked thisquestion, I've I think everyone has
said something to do with the body.
The answers have been in the realm of sexand dance and connectedness and drugs.
(47:17):
But also, but really it's interestingbecause the, I think the textbook
definition is about getting out ofthe body is going beyond the body,
but everybody seems to be connectingto ecstasy through the body.
Monica (47:30):
Yeah, but because the body, because we're of the earth,
we really aren't off the earth.
This is going to be our portalto open up to the universe.
Not when we leave thebody, but through the body.
Boston (47:41):
Yes.
Yes.
So as we start to wrap up ourconversation here, are there any
topics, is there anything youreally want to bring to the table?
Monica (47:52):
Just that V have we really have the capacity to tell
the myths that are needed today.
Not by giving up the old myths, but byreally interacting with them because,
The oldest myths really do comefrom that very primal consciousness.
And there is a sense of things movingin them, which is very different than
(48:16):
the versions of the myths we see today.
But we have the capacityto connect to them.
that's the beauty of theimaginal So just go and do.
it,
Boston (48:31):
That's our show for today.
Myths.
Thank you so much for listening.
And another huge thankyou to our guest, Dr.
Monica Modi.
If you enjoy mythic, pleaseconsider sharing it with a
friend or on social media.
For more information, additionalresources, and to subscribe to our
newsletter, visit mythicpodcast.com.
(48:52):
Now I've left Twitter behind, but onTikTok, I'm Boston dot Blake, and my
Instagram handle is mythic dot coaching.
Feel free to contact me with anyquestions, comments, or requests.
This episode was produced andedited by yours Truly, the music
was composed by Kevin McLeod.
Until next time, journey on.
Hello, and welcome to mythic.
Thank you for listening.
my download numbers havegone much higher recently.
I don't know what's happened,especially with the infrequency of
the podcast, but whoever is out there.
Thank you for listening andplease find me on social media.
I'd love to have a conversation around thepodcast and learn who's listening and why.
(00:42):
My guest today is the brilliantand talented doctor Monica Mody.
She is a poet.
And a writer and a theorist and educatorand her work crosses borders and genres.
She was born in Ranchi, India and nowlives in San Francisco where she got
her PhD in East-west Psychology from theCalifornia Institute of Integral Studies.
(01:06):
She also holds an MFA in creative writingfrom the university of Notre Dame.
And a bachelor of arts and laws from theNational Law School of India University.
Her doctoral dissertation receivedthe 2020 Kore Award for best
dissertation in Women and Mythologyawarded by the Association for
the Study of Women and Mythology.
Monica's poetry has appearedin numerous literary journals.
(01:29):
Her critical work advances Earth basedand decolonial feminist worldviews.
She teaches as core faculty at thePhD program and Visionary Practice
and Regenerative Leadership atSouthwestern College, Santa Fe.
And as adjunct faculty at the School ofConsciousness and Transformation at CIIS.
She has studied and circled withelders, wisdom keepers, and medicine
(01:50):
holders from many earth based andindigenous traditions, developing
an interconnected worldview rootedin ancestral healing practices.
And in this conversation withMonica, you're going to hear the
relationship between myth andcolonialism and decolonization.
So let's get to it.
Here is Dr.
(02:10):
Monica Mody.
Monica (02:17):
I'm so glad to be taking this time with you to talk about myth and story.
Boston (02:22):
Myth and story.
What do you want people to know about youand your relationship to myth and story?
Monica (02:29):
You know, it's interesting because as an artist, my primary
role so far has been as a poet.
And not as a narrative poet, a poetwho really operates in experimental
registers and works with the rhythmand beat and music and metaphor.
(02:54):
So it's interesting that especiallywhen I was working on my doctoral
dissertation, I found myself reallycircling back to this gap that I
had in my own expressive context.
like that of narrative.
My academic work then in some waysbecame about locating where the gap,
(03:19):
the breakage, in story and storytellinghappened for me in a community, a
collective and personal context.
That feels like a very resonantplace to begin For a long time why
this was not something that was veryfacile or easy for me to step into.
Boston (03:39):
So it was difficult for you to step into narrative,
step into storytelling.
And so this was the gap in yourability to express poetically.
Did I understand that correctly?
Monica (03:48):
Poetically or as a writer to as it kept going through the research
tunnels, I'm sure you understand theseresearch tunnels where they take you.
Boston (03:58):
It's a never ending Byzantine conduit of information from every
direction piling on top, and somehowideas get put into words on paper.
Yeah.
Monica (04:09):
Exactly.
And what if, what about that engineinside of yourself, which does
not really not allow you to stopfrom going inside that Byzantine?
Boston (04:19):
Yep.
Yes.
Monica (04:21):
So as I was doing that, I started making certain connections, Like my
family, my mother's side of the family hadmoved from what is now Pakistan into what
is now India at the time of the partition.
And I started realizing that therewas a way in which this whole episode
(04:42):
of the partition of India, which isin some ways it's a horrific, It's
part of something really big andtragic that happened in South Asia.
And then it was buried.
It was buried collectively until prettyrecently where a few people are beginning
to talk about it and addressing it.
Boston (05:03):
What is it that happened?
Monica (05:05):
Well, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, they were part of the British empire.
Boston (05:11):
Yes.
Monica (05:11):
in the colonized period and right as the British were exiting the area,
they created this I'm giving you a verysimple and reductive version of this,
but there was an artificial line that wasdrawn creating three separate countries.
(05:32):
So that region, that area, which wasimaginally one unified, suddenly had
political demarcations and they wereEast Pakistan and West Pakistan, East
Pakistan later on became Bangladesh,but these two were given to the Muslims.
(05:52):
This is what colonization did andmany parts of the world, they were
operating on a divide and rule policy.
So in India, there are divisionhappened specifically along religious
lines and the colonial project hadstarted instituting that had really
started emphasizing the divisions fromthe beginning of the 20th century.
(06:15):
So by the time the petition happened,there were undergone isms that ran deep
in the collective psyche not for everyone,but there was definitely enough of an
atmosphere of fear, collective fearthat was created that even though India
identified itself as secular, it's stillwas more I don't know if feasible as a
(06:37):
word, but Many Muslims felt they wouldwant to move from India to Pakistan.
And many Hindus felt it would be safer forthem to move from from Pakistan to India.
Boston (06:48):
So these lines actually They created something.
they rooted divisions.
Monica (06:54):
They changed the national myth, This is the biggest mass
migration in the history of the world.
And it's surprising to me that, morepeople don't know about it, but it's
not surprising when I think about whathappened in the post-colonial period,
especially in India, where we were sobusy as a nation, trying to be modern,
(07:15):
that we swept all the pain and thetrauma and the wound under the carpet.
We didn't even discuss it.
And that became a partof my family wound too.
It's oh, what happened?
The part of my family lost its lands,lost its history, lost family members.
And there was no talk about this.
(07:36):
So that's the rupture in narrativethat I realized was going on.
Boston (07:40):
Oh, wow.
I'm just sitting with that.
this conversation is happening withmyth and story in the background.
When you lose connection with narrative,you lose connection with the land,
with history with with a sense of placeand family, and that's hearing it so
(08:00):
personally that really brings it home.
It's one thing to have this as anabstract concept and conversation,
it's something very differentbecause it did happen so quickly.
This is not something thathappened over centuries.
It's something that happenedin a matter of a decade.
Monica (08:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the movements, the migration waspretty compressed maybe over a couple
of years, two, three years, and...
Boston (08:28):
wow.
Monica (08:30):
yeah.
Boston (08:31):
This is making the quote that started this conversation.
You said to stake your claim overculture, your cultural practice.
You have to tell your stories.
Ultimately mythology isabout place and belonging.
as you've now engaged in thisin, in storytelling as access to
(08:56):
filling these gaps, filling thisgap, What have you discovered?
Monica (08:59):
When I wrote that, I hadn't contributed this lacuna.
I think I can only like reconstructwhat was really playing for me when
playing up for me when I wrote that.
But the other piece of this is,that in this book, in this lifetime,
I'm sure in the body of a woman.
And in south Asia in particular thewhole terrain of mythology more and more
(09:29):
has been usurped by people who are veryxenophobic, nationalistic, fundamentalist,
so there's this context of oppression andit's not unrelated to what I discovered
later because to the course of my doctoralresearch, because in fact the colonization
and nationalism I really related.
(09:50):
There's that, but there's also,something about the power of the
imagination, the power of retrieval,and that's where then we talk about
something like story and myth there.
And then they're potent forces.
Even when there has a lot of hurt, evenwhen there is a lot of rupture, there are
(10:17):
still always going to be ways to connectthe pieces even through the fragments.
In my academic work I talked aboutre mythologizing, this idea that
we can gather together the pieces.
And and again, this is I think forfor women in patriarchy and in, in
(10:38):
a patriarchal context better, butalso like patriarchal colonial.
There's so many layers of capitalism.
There's like layers andlayers of oppression, right?
Like certain bodies, certain voices,certain experiences, certain ways
of knowing have always been castaside, always these been othered.
So this is not new practice, right?
(11:00):
Like you, as someone who's beenstudying that, you probably
know this intimately, right?
There's this way in which wewant to reach out to whatever
myth is, whatever mythology is.
It's this it's very, reallytalking about something that
emerged from an ancestral context.
(11:24):
Like it came from who, who was the first?
Who were the authors of the first myth?
The first myths.
So were they the shamans?
Were they the medicine peopleand the seekers and the seers and
the, the oracles, who were they?
And what was really going on there whenthese myths became the codes that contain
(11:44):
so much information about cultures.
So I'm, in some ways I ardentlybelieve that these codes are not lost.
We just have to figure outhow they can heal and restore
us today, because the, yeah.
Colonialism capitalism, patriarchy.
They're always going to try totake over that space, but we still
(12:06):
have something in us and that'slinked to our creative capacities.
Boston (12:11):
Oh, there's so much in there.
Stepping back that the image of fragmentsthat you laid down, it made me think
of this, of kintsugi, the Japanese artof repair, where you have the pieces
of a shattered, shattered pot, andthen you put it in a mold and you.
Fill in the gaps with goldand then it has structure.
(12:34):
It's use, it's usable again,it's a pot, but it is something
different from what it was.
It still has all of the elements ofthe original, but also something else.
And it's stronger, more uniqueand its history is then included.
That fracturing is a part of its story.
(12:54):
And I'm now thinking about how myth movesthrough centuries and how myth is always
reflecting the culture that it comes from,but the same stories, a few centuries
apart might be very different stories.
Hera is a goddess that very muchinterests me in Greek mythology.
(13:16):
And one of the things that interestsme is that Hera's temples are
older than Zeus's in that region.
And so this starts to suggest thather reverence goes back further.
The stories that we hear today, Hera isone a one-note wonder she's like a goddess
of jealousy, which strikes me as insane.
(13:42):
if you take that same story,she could also become a goddess
of enforcement of contracts.
Something more like Freya that sheis the Punisher of broken vows.
And then is a power goddess whois standing up to patriarchy.
She may not be able to challengeit directly, but she can
attempt to contain it's impact.
(14:05):
The point is that mythology how we tellthe same stories, you can reconstitute
those fragments in different ways.
What are some myths thatare on your mind right now?
Monica (14:18):
Oh that's a great question.
But, and I also want to quickly say,this is the, you touched on two important
points that I resonate with so much,the idea that when you bring the
fragments together, it's something new.
the gold that connects them, allowsomething else to, and what is that gold?
(14:38):
And yeah, the idea that mids changeover time and You were talking about
para do you know the work of MarijaGimbutas this archaeo-mythologist.
Boston (14:49):
I do not, please educate me.
Monica (14:51):
So Marija Gimbutas was a more central figure to in archeology.
And then when she started makingcontroversial claims that there was in the
Western civilization before the gods, themale gods became part of the dominant way
of culture, there was a different past--exactly what you're saying, that there
(15:14):
were feminine goddesses and matriarchalsocieties that were peaceful and, that
centered mutual nurture and cooperation,and she started making these claims.
She was slowly marginalized and herwork is only now been remembered.
But I think again as a womanwho this idea of reclaiming.
(15:38):
myth off the goddesses from theirtellings which again, cast them only
in such a narrow and almost demoniclight sometimes, or not demonic but
they're either shrews or, like thisone note wonder that you mentioned.
I love for instance, themyth of Medusa, right?
Boston (15:59):
One of my favorite stories and very complicated and problematic.
Monica (16:02):
Yeah.
And Athena's role in that.
What it does to the relationship betweenwomen, So for me, part of Medusa's myth
is also, I'm going to also say HélèneCixous who came in and talked about
Medusa's laughter in, in her book.
And she used that to tell the women,they have to write, we have to take
(16:25):
back this narrative space back forourselves because we are part of that,
I think that's very fertile space,Like that these mythic figures and.
Outside in, not just operating in thisobjective mythic field, but they're really
(16:46):
affecting us and interacting with us.
And that's in, in that mutual, inthe space of mutual interaction is
where we can make changes happen.
Boston (16:57):
What is the book you're referencing about Medusa,
Monica (17:00):
It's called The Laugh of Medusa.
Boston (17:02):
Laugh of Medusa?
Monica (17:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yeah.
Boston (17:06):
I will link to that in the show notes and I will read it myself.
I have been there's a, anothermyth podcast it's called.
Let's talk about myths, baby.
And the hostess is is LivAlbert and she's amazing.
And she is a hardcore defender ofMedusa and I really love her take.
And it has me slipping intothe imaginal around Medusa and
(17:29):
specifically Ovid's version of Athenatransforming her as retribution.
And I thought, what if, what wouldit, what could a story be like where
Athena is actually empowering Medusa?
What could this look like?
Where Medusa never wants to be touchedby a man, the way that she has been
(17:53):
abused by this god and what might be a Sw what could a sister action be in here?
These goddess says if Athena cannotgo against the king of the gods, but
she can somehow affect this path,but then it, and then Perseus become.
The enemy, purse Perseus becomes this manwho puts an end to this immortal creatures
(18:16):
life, maybe as retribution against Athena.
it's a story idea, but this iswhat happens when a myth comes up.
when I was a kid, I loved this story.
When I was a kid, it was just the hero,Perseus, killing the monster Medusa.
She's big and snaky and ugly.
And why shouldn't she die?
That's the thinking of a seven year old
Monica (18:38):
Right,
Boston (18:38):
creepy.
And then you get to this point.
Wait a minute.
She was just minding her ownbusiness and dude comes in with
a lops her and lops her head off.
So let's unpack that what's going on,what tradition is being upheld and
how could that story be revisioned?
Anyway, I'm just playing with ideas here.
Monica (18:58):
But that's a potency, I think that you can be visionary and people.
And so many writers I'm thinkingof do you know the book?
So C by Madeline Miller.
Boston (19:07):
I've read it three times.
I
Monica (19:08):
Oh, wow.
Boston (19:09):
much.
I love Madeline Miller and the songof Achilles is my other favorite.
Monica (19:13):
This is happening where people are really going there and
interacting with these figures.
But I wanted also take a step back.
So I grew up in a differentcountry, a different context, right?
Like a different like mythic context.
And I was a voraciousreader when I was a child.
For me the distinction between realityand books and an imagination, it,
it was very hard for me to make thatdistinction in some days, because I spent
(19:38):
so much time in books and with books.
But also the children's magazinesand books and that I was reading
and Hindi and an English.
There is this mutabilityin the mythology in India.
I find it very hard topinpoint, this is the story.
(19:59):
This is the story.
Because again there's, it's possiblethat a thousand different versions of
the same myth exist from region to regionfrom sub-community to sub community.
And that, that diversity of courseis what is at risk right now
under the nationalist government.
But but because I grew up there forme, sometimes I get very restless.
(20:23):
I'm like, oh, I don't evenwant to like the bone.
Off the mainstream narrative.
I don't even wanna operate within that.
So the there's a poemthat I wrote recently.
And I wrote it for, and for a projectcalled An Exaltation of Goddesses and
the project was in fact commemoratingMarija Gimbutas with us as work.
(20:48):
And even though Gimbutas'swork is centered more on west
Western Europe the project itselfinvited cutting international
poets from all over the world.
And so the FIGO the deity the.
Spirit I interacted with wasSaraswati and Saraswati, in Indian
(21:09):
mythological slash religion.
Religious context is a very it's she'spresented as a pretty demure civilized.
And, she's varying like silk saris andshe has this graceful, gentle, demeanor.
And as I was doing my research towrite this poem, I started realizing,
she gets her name from a river, whichvanished and the river itself is, like
(21:38):
the Hindu restaurant, the nationalistsin India are using that river in a
way that I don't at all buy into.
But at the same time, that river, if youlook at the descriptions of the river,
she's portrayed as wild unbridled.
(21:59):
She is just like storming down,storming through the lands
and creating new pathways.
And so for me, I was like, I'm goingto, really break apart the bones of that
story, where Sarasota has to be dosedsolid and Muir, and has to move with
that yeah, with this feminine grace whichleaves the wild and the completely natural
(22:26):
uninhibited aspects of her outside.
So I started with her as a river and I,it's for me, I think that was so freeing.
Saraswati is wild, because again,Saraswati is the wisdom goddess,
Sophia in the best and panty.
And so that wisdom hasto look a certain way.
(22:46):
No, for me, if the roots of it comefrom nature, the roots of it come from
there, that terrain, which is yeah.
Lush and yeah,
Boston (22:56):
You're speaking to something that is pervasive across pantheons and across
religions and mythologies as patriarchythese powerful forces, these powerful
feminine forces, whether it's a riveror an earth goddess or reproductive
capacity itself, it becomes ma it becomesreduced and made demure and fitting
(23:20):
underneath the patriarchal umbrella.
And of course, these arewild forces of nature.
They're recognized as goddesses, verylikely because they were untamable.
Mysterious.
And something we couldn't control.
We were at the mercy of, butthen they get told into stories.
(23:41):
They get turned into humannarratives where so often the woman
nest, the woman identity, I don'teven want to call it femininity.
That's not right.
But the woman, they become embodiedas a woman and then in a patriarchal
role and yet, and then you tell methis story about connecting with
(24:03):
the wildness of the river itself.
She's still under there.
Saraswati is who's wearing that sari?
this is not someone to be fuckedwith It's so fun to play with these.
When you were a child, what wereyour favorite stories growing
(24:23):
up and where did you find them?
Monica (24:25):
Oh gosh, it was so polyamorous, my vote stories, and that, that
question is still something that I'm in.
I'm never able to answerthat question favorite?
No, but I'll tell you, I'm so gratefulthat there were these repositories
of myth and folk tale that.
Published being published at the time.
So there were these books, these magazineschildren's magazine in India, Nandan and
(24:51):
gosh, Chandra forgetting the name of that.
But there was a bottle Chitra,cathartic sorry to anyone who is from
India and listening to this this.
You forgot the names, but there werethese children's magazines, which would
come out either once a month are, twice amonth and they would have these stories.
(25:14):
I'm, the name thatI'm trying to think of?
It's on all now.
We're dying.
Chitra is picto.
So these are picture stories.
For me that was onething that was happening.
I was reading.
I grew up in a small town and itwas one of the towns in India, which
actually had a British council library.
So I was reading a lot ofBritish books for children also.
(25:37):
And then this is around the time and thenational television of India, which was
. There was only one channel at the time.
It had just started broadcastingthere's so much analysis that has
been done of how that was a projectof knitting the nation together.
(25:57):
And, how this one version thencontinued to supersede all other
versions of that myth, but that'swhat you would do every Sunday.
We would all sit around thetelevision and watch it.
Remember I grew up in a very small town, Iwas picking up all these pieces from also
the conversations that we would have inthe communities, but that my parents were
(26:22):
a part of and there, again, storytellingwould happen in a different way.
It was rich in some ways.
And also I think, again, it had a verynarrow version of femininity, but more,
it doesn't really answer your question.
Boston (26:38):
But it does.
And these picture books, that picturestories, I'm imagining something akin to
comic books, something you named threelevels of story that were impacting you.
There are these picture books that you'rereading and consuming for entertainment
and the library, which you were drawnto, there is a dialogue happening
(26:59):
with your parents and storytellingis happening in a very human way.
People telling stories as in a culturalway, but then also this very interesting.
The Ramayan through a single network,spreading a national story, the United
States, our version of that was we hadthree networks that all told us variations
(27:19):
on the same news narrative, before cable.
And it did feel like a morecohesive culture at that time.
There was a more cohesive America whenthe narrative Was more tightly contained.
More viewpoints add more complexity.
Did I miss anything in there where theremovies that you were seeking out or
(27:40):
other types of entertainment, narrative?
Monica (27:42):
One thing I do want to mention as you were talking, I
realized there was actually anotherclass of stories that was in there,
Is stories from Russia.
So interestingly enough, because Indiaand Russia were very close at that time.
This is where we're still talking about.
I think when it was still USSR rightbefore the are right around the time when
(28:05):
yeah, the break the breakup happened,
Boston (28:07):
So early, mid 1980s.
Monica (28:09):
yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So because of the close connectionspolitically, between India and USSR, there
were all these like books, Russian books.
So they were also feeding my imagination.
So I think, even though we had thenational through language and just, that.
Through line had just started coming invia mass media, This is the role that
(28:33):
television played globally in some ofthese capturing their imagination and
saying, this is the only way to do story.
But because the cauldron was soalready in, in some ways rich with
complexity, which I think is a verypost-colonial phenomenon in some days.
it's the idea that you're findingyourself in a society where there's
(28:53):
many different versions of how tobe human and what the world is these
exist in, in such a complicated way.
I think that really liberatesimagination in a way.
Boston (29:07):
I agree.
It becomes pantheistic insteadof monotheistic, one, one path
to expression versus many paths,finding other ways to identify.
While we're in this particular realm, isthere any myth or fairy tale or a story
from any place in your life that has hada particularly powerful impact on you?
Monica (29:32):
I remember when I first saw Sita Sings the Blues, it's a
movie by, do you know that movie?
Boston (29:42):
No.
Monica (29:43):
I loved that movie because.
Yeah, it just takes, Sita's myth andopens the top and puts it in a different
context and makes her a blues singerand gives her agency, gives her a voice.
This is something that I knowit's been because many of the
figures, seminal figures in Indianmythology are also are pretty.
(30:07):
Again, docile are pretty linear insome ways are, they are operating
mostly not for their own ends, not
As their own agents, but onbehalf of men to free men, to
help out men, things like that.
So I think this, I know it's beena look at the work of writers from
(30:28):
India, women writers from Indiaeither now or are in the last, I
think since independence, right?
Since they're in independenceit's remains really valid.
It remains like this through-linethe wants that we want
to reclaim these figures.
We want these feminine figures, Wewant these women to be more than.
(30:51):
How they were written down how they weretextualized because it's in the oral
traditions of the myths that they'rereally alive and they have more agency.
You have so many differentversions of Sita already, right?
Like in the oral myths, butit's been they're written down.
When we started telling stories, butmaybe it wasn't the telling stories,
(31:12):
but maybe it was by who was writingdown these stories that some of
the deformities started happening.
Boston (31:21):
There's something really poetic in that too.
Just in that, once you writesomething down, you capture
it and contain it in a frozen.
When you're telling a story, wetell stories for particular reasons.
There's you don't just start talking.
Maybe I do sometimes but generallyif you're bringing up a story it's
(31:42):
to teach or to explain or describe,and it's relevant to that moment and
it, and these, if we're pulling onmyth to do it, we're pulling on great
deep ancient imagery and archetype.
We're going straight for the soul.
When you write it down, it's runningthrough the intellect This may not
(32:02):
be true with poetry, but it does havean intellectual component, but it's
a soulful practice the way I hear it.
Anyway, my point is.
There's something about freezinga myth in time and freezing these
characters in time that ultimatelycontains and controls them.
And maybe both the men and the womenthat these are wild forces that somehow
(32:28):
humans, by writing them down, theywant to have some kind of dominion
over them as opposed to embodying them.
Monica (32:34):
It's so interesting what you said about stories being told for a
particular reason, That changed when westarted telling stories for entertainment.
Boston (32:46):
Yes.
Monica (32:47):
That's part of, modernity's myth, again, we're talking, I'd come
back to the middle of modernity,which removes the sacred as something
that's needed to connect a communitytogether to tie a community together,
to, give purpose to human life.
And also theater there's again,in different parts of India
(33:09):
they've always been regional reforms of ritual theatre, right?
And these, this ritual theatre whichtells off the mythic stories that are
particular to that region, they're not.
It's supposed to be entertaining.
They're supposed to enact very significantmoments in that culture's timeline.
(33:34):
So they could be seasonal moments.
For instance, in their villages ofHimalaya's they enact the goddess
coming home coming back to herfather's house at particular moments
and there's like Petro, but that'salso tied into the harvest season,
So it could be seasonal, but it couldalso be related to rights of passage.
(33:58):
And we've lost that, in secular modernity,in colonial modernity, you've lost
so much of what it was to knit thecommunity together through the stories.
Boston (34:09):
It's such an excellent point.
And one of the things that's reallyinteresting this superhero movie
phenomenon, which I am really, I wasenjoying, I am still enjoying it.
I am a comic book kid.
So there, this is what happenswhen the nerds grow up and get the
power and the money and it's, butthey are not of a particular place.
(34:33):
They play with big ideas, butthey're all the same note.
You do get interesting things thathappened with something like Black
Panther and Wonder Woman that reallydo empower marginalized groups and
really make a point of re-imagininga world that's different, but I think
in general, and it's not just thesuperhero movies, it's movies in general.
(34:55):
It's how do we make the mostmoney possible on a global scale?
So what is going to be palatable to theUnited States, China, India, Russia,
and offend as few people as possible.
And because America does drivethis machine, it all has this
underlying very American machismofor lack of a better word.
(35:22):
I'm just thinking, yeah, that'ssomething is lost when when a
story is not tied to a place whenit's not emerging out of a place.
And this is back to what you said andmythology is about place and belonging.
Monica (35:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this whole Americanizationand globalization it's of course,
it's a very real phenomenon.
We it's really affected many of theminor stories and the minor myths.
Even right here in, in the us, w how manyindigenous myths do we know about right.
(35:58):
Local place-based myths,
Boston (36:00):
you know,
where they went, bugs bunny cartoons,the Tasmania, the Tasmanian devil,
the trickster, the Southwest imagery.
There are there local folklore isin the old Looney tunes cartoons.
And this,
Monica (36:15):
know that is hilarious.
Boston (36:17):
it just it hit me recently when I was my father deeply involved
in the Lakota Sioux traditionsand has a wealth of knowledge.
And he was telling me some storiesabout coyote, the trickster character.
And I'm like, this is Wiley coyote.
This is the coyote Roadrunner situation.
(36:37):
And I started looking like this holds up.
These stories that they did not havea written tradition, native American
we call it folklore mythology.
It was an oral tradition.
And now we don't even have thelanguages to tell the stories.
The languages have been lost.
So many of them,
Monica (36:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the loss of language andthe loss of knowledge are really
tied together in some days.
But I do want to mention, andit's interesting because I don't
want to also dis the writtenform because it's so important.
We talk about preservation.
So a couple of years ago, I was at thebook launch of this book called When a
(37:17):
Mountain Was Made and it's a collectionof stories by Greg Sarris and I'm
forgetting he's from the, I think he'sfrom California and the Sonoma state.
again, the beautiful stories, butwhat happens is even as he was reading
(37:37):
the stories, I found my brain gettingconflict reconfigured, because again,
stories are like, even if they made itto Looney tunes or whatever, but they
didn't go with the worldview intact.
That's what got lost.
And also like a desert beautiful book.
There, there are a couple of presses inparticular in India, which are really
(38:00):
trying to get the indigenous storiesin the indigenous myths written down.
There's a book called I think it'scalled the nightlife of trees,
which is all about how, yeah.
It's all about trees and it's about the.
How trees come alive at night in adifferent way when than in the daytime.
So it's so important, right?
(38:21):
That we don't just rely on them.
The main, if we are interested in mythand how do we even broaden which myths
we find ourselves in conversation withbecause they are tied into worldview.
And I think that's where the fact thatwe find ourselves in the predicament, we
are globally comes in because What a lotof the Hollywood superhero stories are
doing, they are talking about some realperils that the world is facing right now.
(38:47):
But of course they aredecontextualizing it.
And they are, pulling out someelements and absolutely they are.
they're doing it to make money.
There's something very wrongwith the world right now.
Why is it that these corporateforces, these multi-millionaires like,
why is it that they're getting todictate our world in a certain way?
(39:08):
Where do the answers come from and yes,maybe Hollywood has some ons and there
won't be enough and that's what complexitytheory also says, the answers will have
to come from that place of complexity.
No single individual or entity orgroup that ever have all the answers.
Boston (39:28):
What is something that, that you believe to be true in the
world that you just can't prove?
Monica (39:33):
Let me start with a story and then I'll maybe answer that question.
So I was writing this chapteron voice for my dissertation.
There, I talk a lot about narrativeand I talk a lot about the stories that
have been cut off and the ancestralrelationships that have been cut off.
And I was researching this placewhere my nanny there, my grandmother's
(39:58):
family came from in, in whatis now Pakistan and the places
So I was know, looking at the Wikipedia.
I was trying to study the geography andstring to see what kind of mountains
were there and things like that.
Like really trying to immerse myself inthat region to activate my imagination.
I didn't know what was going on.
I was doing my research, sodefinitely in those tunnels.
(40:20):
And then I came across this onereference in an entry about the
mountains in that area that thiswhich called the Shita legend says
still lives on those mountains.
And somehow, you know how it is when youS you grabbed, you don't even know why,
but I was entranced with two sheet them.
(40:45):
So I was like, I need to knoweverything I can about tissue down.
So I did my, I didn't make Googletrawling and I'm very good at that.
And that was the only sentence offound in some 50 places, but I didn't
find anything else about Toshi bounds.
So this search for her, and then animaginable connection with Toshiba
(41:08):
on the mountain and her relationshipwith the village and, her relationship
with the women in the villagethat became like a 10 page poem.
And a few months later I was going toread that poem at a reading in Oakland.
And so I was like, okay, I just wantto go and check that page again.
And it was a Wikipedia page andthat entry had been deleted or
(41:34):
it was no longer to be found.
And I couldn't find that sentenceanywhere on the internet after that.
Like talking about something extraordinarythat really wanted to be known coming
through and, I had copied and pastedthat, that, and that, that sentence
is actually in my dissertation.
Like I have the citation, I have the URL,I have everything, but it's gone now.
(41:57):
It's only in thatartifact, which is my home.
Which is why I feel like if there'ssomething behind the curtain that
wants to be known, it'll figureout its way, even through this
technological morass, that navigating,
Boston (42:16):
That does.
She wanted to be preserved,wanted to be kept and herd.
And then the veil closed.
Will you send me a link to that poem?
I'll include it in the show notes.
I would love to read it.
Monica (42:31):
The, it is published, but it's published in a print magazine.
And it's going to be included in mycollection that's coming out in a month
or two months, a couple of months.
So unfortunately it'snot online right now,
Boston (42:44):
Then they'd give me a link to that publication when it's
ready and we'll get that out there.
Monica (42:49):
yeah.
Boston (42:50):
I'm imagining you, the, you I'm talking to right now and the little
girl who was reading those picture booksand then also going to the library.
Monica (43:01):
one of my favorite things to do if I even now is to stay up on
light reading and I have to say it,fantasy and not scifi as much, but yeah.
Fantasy and mythological booksremain favorite but there's this
awareness that there's something.
Other than this world.
I feel like for a while, in my twenties,because I was trying to fit in and I was
(43:26):
trying to lead the conventional life.
I lost the sense of awe and wonder,but the older I grow, I find myself
connecting with that childlikesense of wow, this is our world.
And that magic more.
So I feel like if you had asked me thisquestion 10 years ago, I don't know what
(43:46):
I would have said, but now I would say,I feel like a kinship with that child
now, like with that sense of wonder.
So
Boston (43:52):
Have you ever experienced a phenomenon that you just can't explain?
Monica (44:00):
All the time.
So part of it is like the more, andI really do believe that, right?
Like the more we open ourselvesto magic and synchronicity,
the more we're gonna see that.
And so Young's notion of synchronicitythat that really is that connection
between different phenomena in the worldand that everything in the universe
is alive and is trying to talk to us,which of course is a Jungian notion,
(44:25):
but also if you look at it from ananimist perspective, It goes even deeper.
I think I'm opening myself to that lensand to that way of being more and more.
And the more I do that,I have that happen.
Plus I actually couple of years ago, twoor three years after I started my doctoral
program at CIIS, I actually studied.
(44:47):
And that was my leap of faith.
I started studying the, this WestAfrican diviner and teacher Dr.
Malidoma Some.
And I really studied inthat cosmology deeply.
And I became a diviner in that tradition.
So as a diviner you are, you'rereally sitting in front of the
(45:08):
community and saying, I'm going tocall on the ancestors on your behalf.
And there's specific technologiesby which you do that.
So when I'm sitting with people, I've hadinformation come through that I would have
no way of knowing, but it's because I'veestablished that context as a diviner.
it's a job that's entailstremendous responsibility.
(45:31):
It's not to be done lightly at all.
So I do not take it lightly.
I take it very seriously.
And ritually, so I had that happentoo, where, I really find myself
saying something and the otherperson is wow, this is accurate.
Boston (45:46):
Extraordinary.
That's an entire line of conversation.
I'd like to if you're open toit, have another conversation
specifically about divining, aboutwhat it is to be a diviner are
you
Monica (45:57):
would be fantastic.
Yeah.
Boston (45:58):
And so my last of these five questions is when in your
life have you experienced ecstasy.
Monica (46:04):
Oh well, dancing remains a big portal of ecstasy for me.
I'm not very trustful of disembodiedecstatic practices at all.
It's when I started dancing seriously.
And I started dancing once a weekbecause I was given the information in a
(46:24):
ceremony that you have to do this right.
But when I started doing that, I started,it changed understanding how the body is
one energy field in many energy fields.
And I think if we look deeper at, ecstasyis not merely about happiness or an
elevated expression of that, but I thinkit's it's something that enables you to
(46:49):
see the world as a alive and connected.
Yeah, that's a big one for me.
Boston (46:57):
Thank you.
It, I really hear that.
It's interesting.
The, everybody I've asked thisquestion, I've I think everyone has
said something to do with the body.
The answers have been in the realm of sexand dance and connectedness and drugs.
(47:17):
But also, but really it's interestingbecause the, I think the textbook
definition is about getting out ofthe body is going beyond the body,
but everybody seems to be connectingto ecstasy through the body.
Monica (47:30):
Yeah, but because the body, because we're of the earth,
we really aren't off the earth.
This is going to be our portalto open up to the universe.
Not when we leave thebody, but through the body.
Boston (47:41):
Yes.
Yes.
So as we start to wrap up ourconversation here, are there any
topics, is there anything youreally want to bring to the table?
Monica (47:52):
Just that V have we really have the capacity to tell
the myths that are needed today.
Not by giving up the old myths, but byreally interacting with them because,
The oldest myths really do comefrom that very primal consciousness.
And there is a sense of things movingin them, which is very different than
(48:16):
the versions of the myths we see today.
But we have the capacityto connect to them.
that's the beauty of theimaginal So just go and do.
it,
Boston (48:31):
That's our show for today.
Myths.
Thank you so much for listening.
And another huge thankyou to our guest, Dr.
Monica Modi.
If you enjoy mythic, pleaseconsider sharing it with a
friend or on social media.
For more information, additionalresources, and to subscribe to our
newsletter, visit mythicpodcast.com.
(48:52):
Now I've left Twitter behind, but onTikTok, I'm Boston dot Blake, and my
Instagram handle is mythic dot coaching.
Feel free to contact me with anyquestions, comments, or requests.
This episode was produced andedited by yours Truly, the music
was composed by Kevin McLeod.
Until next time, journey on.
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