125 From Poland to Philadelphia: Kościuszko's Impact

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
hey fans, welcome back to another episode of the
nailing history Podcast.
I am your host, Matt, and I amjoined finally with the co-host
of the show, John N.
Hey guys.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
I am stoked to be back.
It's been a wild past couple ofweeks but Matt told me, as some
of our listeners, our listenersheard last week on the call.
He phoned in.
He phoned me in and uh, yeah,we weren't getting our money's
worth with the old buzzsprout so, uh, we had to take care of

(00:56):
that and I'm really glad hecalled me.
Uh, I was in the middle ofcooking dinner but uh, it was
great.
It really felt loose, felt good, and uh, yeah, I was just happy
to kind of talk back to youguys got some good response back
from the big uh solo episode.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
People said it was pretty good I thought it was
quite solid, enjoyed, yeah itwas actually, I think, timed in
to be a this week in Historytype thing, at first beginning
of August or end of August, Ithink was when Emperor Norton
stated that he was the emperor,I think.

(01:35):
So we were going to kind of doit in like a this Week in
History type thing.
But then, you know, time wentby, time flew by, we missed our
window for that.
And you know, time went by,time flew by, we missed our
window for that, and yeah, so Ijust wanted to get it over with,
or get it not over withnecessarily but just get it
through.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, he was quite the character.
I definitely think we had anice.
You had a great chance ofsharing that.
Fans I was yeah, they didreally great.
I really enjoyed listening toit.
It was nice to see that comeback on Thursday morning.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
I guess one of the reasons that we couldn't get
into that is one of the SundaysI think maybe the Sunday that we
were actually planning to do it.
I threw a bit of a curveball inthe situation and I actually
had time off from work planned,just had to take a week off, and
I wasn't going to do anything.

(02:27):
The last minute I was like, hey, why don't I go up?
It's the beginning of fall.
At this point it was like themiddle to the end of September.
I guess it was the middle ofSeptember and beginning of fall,
especially up north in theAdirondacks.
I figured I'd go up there maybesee some of the leaves changing
and just get up there.
I've been, I was up there years,years before and I uh, I'd

(02:50):
always been wanting to go back,so kind of last minute planned
on a trip there.
I usually go by myself, um, totrips, but I kind of thought I
don't want to really go bymyself.
Let me see if john could go um,you know, with the last minute
thing, and he came through andagreed to come up with me.
So yeah, so we went up.
We spent three, two nights,three days, two nights in the

(03:12):
Adirondacks.
It was pretty nice A littlecamping trip.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, it was a really good time.
We ascended the highest peak inthe state of New York.
It was a big achievement for us.
Matt was so kind as to get me at-shirt to celebrate the fact.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, mount Marcy in the Adirondacks.
If anybody's interested, it'sabout a 16.2 mile out and back
hike.
It's a little tough but it wasfun.
I also have to apologize to therest of the country.
I feel like I made a prettypoor impression on some Brits on
the trail.
I don't think they reallyappreciated we were passing them

(03:52):
.
This was like.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
We were almost done.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
I was pretty wiped at the time and they were.
This couple was walking.
I didn't know they were fromEngland at the time, but I just
go up to them, I go Sup.
And they didn't think it wasfunny or appreciate it at all.
They were like hello in theirEnglish accent and didn't seem
like they were impressed with myAmericanisms.

(04:14):
Matt, I don't think I said sup.
I think I was like what's up?
Hey, what's up, what's up,what's up?
Something like that, because Iwas tired and I was just trying
to be nice.
But then John was like I don'tthink you should talk to people
like that on the trail and I waslike okay, sorry, sorry for

(04:35):
being me, I just thought youwere.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
You got to understand .
We weren't in Philly, we werein the Philly area.
People were just, you know,yeah, but they were in our
country and they should haveappreciated that.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
Typical Brits.
We had some testy times betweenthe two of us, but that's what
happens when you're, you know,spending 24 hours a day together
all the way up in the mountains.
So we survived, we got throughit, we had some pretty fun times
and I guess one of the things Iguess the lead into this

(05:08):
episode uh, on our way back, weuh decided to stop at a national
historic park.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yes, national historic park park yep saratoga
national historical park thisyeah, I think it's just saratoga
national battlefield, somethinglike that yeah, so, um, so,
yeah, so we stopped in there.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
I guess I don't know if if people are super familiar
with the battle of saratoga Idon't think we've talked about
it too much.
Some of the some of the famethat came out of that.
It was a pretty significantturning point in the american
revolution, um, but also it waswhere benedict arnold really
really got his wings, as theywould say, in the middle.
I guess they wouldn't have saidit back then, but in a sense,

(05:54):
like he kind of, it was hisclaim to fame, you know, as far
as how he felt he should berespected in the military.
You know it was a big win.
Benedict Ben McDonald played asignificant role in that.
And yeah, it's like right onthe Hudson River, right.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, it's right, on the Hudson River.
It was a very important battle.
Like Matt said, it was aturning point.
By that point of the battle,the Americans, we didn't really
have a big battle or engagementwith the British that we could't
really have, kind of you know,a big battle or you know
engagement with the British thatwe could, you know, communicate
to the world saying, hey, no,we're serious and we have a shot
at winning this thing.
And so by the British army, uh,surrendering that basically

(06:36):
told the French, oh, theseupstarts might actually do
something.
And that's basically whatkicked off the French and
American alliance, which manyhistorians say.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
without that, we would not have gained our
independence.
It's like almost without aquestion, so yeah, so anyway, so
to get into that, whatever, butreally the the real reason to
to go there was that this wasalso people could say, could
consider it maybe the crowningjewel of John's boy, tadu
Kishusko's engineering featsduring the military and you

(07:13):
could potentially credit himwith a significant part of how
they won the battle.
That's kind of why we wentthere, figuring let's see what
they have about this guy.
I kind of, as we were driving,like, oh man, if they don't have
anything about him, that wouldbe so great, because you know
how John's always been he's abig deal, he's a big deal and
wanted to really see this andkind of prove his point to me.

(07:36):
I think was kind of part of it,but also wanted to see it for
himself.
It's a huge park.
They had a driving tour thatthere was a road that went up,
there was a road that went allthe way through it, right, 10
miles.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
One way, one way, it's one way, yeah you had to go
through the whole loop.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
We were warned about it, but I'm like at 10 miles
whatever, and they said it waslike a.
It was a driving tour, is whatthey called it, I believe, and
they actually had.
You could download um audio,like so I assumed, as you were
in your car, you follow itaround, there might be areas to
stop, and then there's adescription and you can see it.

(08:12):
But what we learned prettyshortly after starting it is
like not, you didn't, youcouldn't see.
You can't really blame the parkfor this, I guess, but you
couldn't see anything reallyfrom the road.
So you had to stop your car.
You had the audio, you had tolisten, but then you had to park
your car, get out and walkaround and then there was all

(08:33):
this stuff on signs thatbasically had everything that
they were saying to you in thisrecording in print, and John at
first was walking around.
I don't know if you rememberthis, john.
You were walking around withthat thing on speaker Standing
right next to me.
We were reading this plaque orthis thing that they had for

(08:54):
whatever spot we stopped at, andyou were playing it on your
phone and it was literally thesame thing that I was reading,
but in a really annoying voice,and I was, like I said, like can
you just turn that off?
I'm reading the same thing and Idid and I did thank god, I
walked away then too, so I don'tknow if you have anything else

(09:17):
to add as far as that goes.
I mean, it was like real,because we didn't have a lot of
time and we had a six and a halfhour drive coming back and I
didn't really plan to spend aton of time at this park.
I kind of thought that it wasgoing to be a quick like in and
out.
See whatever we did stop, butthere was a memorial for Tadeusz
Kiszczusko and we stopped there.

(09:38):
That was like the second stop.
It was like an obelisk, I guess.
I think is what it was right.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah, it wasn't a statue of him, it was just like
one of those Obelisk.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Obelisk type thing.
Yeah, so we stopped there, wecontinued the thing I blew past.
There was one spot.
It's a loop, the whole thing'sa loop, except one spot where
you turned off of the loop to gosee something, to go see the
thing that kachushka is knownfor.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
At this particular battle.

Speaker 1 (10:11):
We just bailed on that which I don't understand
why his memorial wouldn't havebeen at that spot.
So it's kind of weird.
I kind of figured we were donewith the kushko part of it by
the time we saw the obeliskthere.
That's kind of why I made itleft.
He didn't say anything.
I'm like we got to this Tintersection and I'm like I'm

(10:31):
not going there.
We got to go, I made the leftand then, as I made the left on
the one-way road, he's like thatwas the most important.
I'm like, oh, whoops, Maybe notthe most important.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
But if you're there to see what Cachusco's offering
was to the battle, yeah, he'dset up fortifications at this
spot called Bemis Heights on theHudson River and by how he set
it up that kind of diverted theBritish.
The British could have justcome down the Hudson, they had
to get off further north.
It was like kind of what setthe setup for how the battle
kind of would unfold.
So his engineering feat atBemis Heights would unfold.

(11:08):
So his engineering feat atbemis heights.
This guy, this one historyprofessor, says his choice of
fortifying bemis heights on thehudson river was probably one of
the most important tacticaldecisions of the american
revolution.
And we took a left whatever Ididn't know, I didn't say
anything left.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
Oh, it happens, so anyway.
So then, so we continue and weleave, and then I guess that
kind of got from what I I couldonly gather, that kind of got
john's, got john, that just thatlittle taste of some kashusko,
uh, praise I mean I knew it wasexciting, I just wanted the
validation.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
I wanted you to hear, I wanted you to be validated.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah I think.
I think so like couple days.
I don't even know if it was afull week later, john said hey,
I'm coming up or you want to goto the museum.
Maybe it was a week after wegot back from the saratoga trip
it was very soon.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
I was starting a new job on October 1st.
I had the weekend before thatto go, because this museum it's
only open half of the year inPhiladelphia and it's only open
on Saturdays and Sundays.
So I kind of had to either gonow or wait until spring.
And I had it.

(12:23):
I was itching to get there.
It's been on my bucket list fora while, as I mentioned to you
guys before, and as well, theWall Street Journal did an
article on it a few months backnow, recommending it.
You know, if you wanted toavoid the crowds, it's
definitely a good place to go.
And yeah, so we made it happen.

(12:43):
I mean, like you know, know,when matt sent me that invite
for the adirondacks, I I pulledthrough and then when I asked
him if he wanted to come with meto philadelphia, he said all
right, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
and that's where the adventure began, when our we did
another trip to philly yeah, so, um, so, basically, this museum
in philly is basically it'sjust a house that he stayed at
um after way after the americanrevolution.
We'll get into how he wound upthere but it was a place that he
came to kind of as a respite.

(13:18):
He had some injuries, he wasgetting better for that, and
that's basically all that it wasand they, you know, it was a
big deal that he came tophiladelphia.
He was a big deal and, um,pretty surprisingly, they it
seemed like that, well, we'llget into it a little bit more,
but that's, you know, that'sbasically why there's a museum
for him in philadelphia, becauseI suppose if you wanted to call

(13:42):
, if you wanted to call anyplace in America home, it would
be Philadelphia.
I think that's where he landedand I think maybe he just
identified himself as aPhiladelphian and maybe, as we
talk more about his life, thesepeople who are fans, who are
from the Philadelphia area, ormaybe people who aren't from the
Philadelphia area but knowpeople from Philly, might

(14:05):
realize that, yeah, he does.
As far as for a Polish person,he sure had that little
Philadelphia grit to him.
It seems like.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
He's pretty gritty.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
That's for sure.
So I guess let's get started.
We'll talk about our day.
One thing that I really want totalk about it's been eating me
up since we talked about the ourtrip to the Museum of the
American Revolution is John cameon here talking game about how

(14:35):
I usually go to Philadelphiataking the Norristown train line
, but he's always gone takingthe Paoli line and that the
Paoli train station is closerthan the Norristown train
station.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
I don't think that was ever my reasoning.
I just said that's I'm acreature of habit, more or less,
and that's what I've alwaysdone.
I've never, I think, the firsttime we're in the Philadelphia.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
I think when you when you, when we talked about it
and when I said, let's go toNorristown do you look to be
crazy?
Like paoli's definitely quickerthan norristown and you kind of
looked at me crazy.
I guess I'm a little snootywhen it comes to taking certain
mass transit.
So I just want to say so onething I and I was I'll admit

(15:16):
when I start when we started ourday I was cranky and I was
tired and we got.
We got an early start.
We had to get there.
The park closes at four, sojohn has been like, was planning
four hours there.
He wanted to get there at noon.
So you know, we had to getthere a little early.
I mean it was a saturday.
It's not like I was, you know,had to set an alarm to wake up
or anything, but I was a littlegroggy in the morning, a little
cranky, and it was fine, thoughwe couldn't get coffee.

(15:37):
We had to go right to itbecause john's great idea was to
park three miles away from thetrain station.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, so I've got family who live in the Paoli
Pennsylvania area and I'veparked there before he's got
they have excess parking Wellhow he pitched it, how John
pitched to me.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
He was like, yeah, this gentleman who we won't name
the relation or anything, butjohn would say he lives, he
lives right next to the trainstation, we'll just park there.
So I'm thinking, all right,whatever we could.
Always it's a big giant parkinglot, but whatever, we'll park
there.
So we get to the train stationand as we get to the train state
, so we we drive past the trainstation.

(16:22):
You know, there's extra parking, I get it.
There's extra parking wherejohn knows where it is.
We get to the train station.
So we drive past the trainstation.
There's extra parking, I get it.
There's extra parking whereJohn knows where it is.
We get to the train station, wepass the train station, I go,
there's a train station.
He said, oh, we're going topark at so-and-so's house.
I say okay, and then he keepsgoing.
He crosses the intersection,goes down a block, makes a turn,
another turn, another turn.

(16:53):
I mean we're driving for fiveminutes.
I start losing my mind.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
It's raining outside and I start I'm like what is
this?

Speaker 1 (16:56):
what misting it was misting outside, okay, and I
guess I could blame myself fornot dressing properly shirt, and
it was september and any, butanyway, he was blaming you, I
was losing my mind.
And then he's blaming me fornot being properly dressed, but
we parked there, we parked therewe walked we walked in Dunkin
Donuts.
It was probably a 15 minutewalk from where we parked to the

(17:16):
train station would be my guesswhen we could have just parked
at the train station clocked itat 12.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
don't.
Don't tell our fans who no, no,no, no, it was 12.
Don't tell our fans who no, no,no, no, no, it was 12 minutes.
Okay, you clocked it you timedit.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
I did time it.
Okay, whatever, 12 minutes.
So I'm just going to say outthere, numbers don't lie.
Paoli train station is 5minutes closer to where we live
than the Norristown trainstation, but the train ride is
13 minutes longer from Paoli toPhiladelphia.
So, right there, norristown is8 minutes faster, just going

(17:51):
that way.
You add the 12-minute walk,we're at 20 minutes longer.
The process to get toPhiladelphia is 20 minutes
longer if you go through Paoli.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
That's a good day and unfortunately, we decided to
take the train on a bad day.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
Train was 27 minutes late Class, except I mean
Saturday morning.
No reason for it to be late,except, I don't know, maybe the
conductor overslept, I don'tknow, I think it was the
remnants of that hurricane too,were coming up from Florida.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
You know a little bit of of weather and you just stay
in bed we had a gentlemanapproach us and kind of butt in
on our conversation, yeah yeah,it was the classic list.
Like you know, the times whenstrangers finally talk to one
another.
You're all being chappedbecause you're waiting for a
train 25 minutes and one personmakes an off the comment oh,
here we go.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
And then he's like oh yeah, and I'll like I'll start
like throwing shade at the septatogether.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
That's something we can have, it's a bond we can
form and then, you know, becomefriends for life.
Sort of deal on a trade from atrade station.
But we met this gentleman basedon.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
We were talking about our trip to the adirondacks and
how, something about us beinglost or maybe being lost or john
not having a map, something wewere talking about something
like that and this guy just budsin and goes oh, my mom, uh,
back in the 70s my mom got loston an island.
We were like, oh wow, mind you,this guy is wearing a sherlock

(19:19):
holmes hat and a black dusterguy was sleuthing out.
There, turns out I mean I askedthe question.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
I I looked I think I looked at matt.
I was like should I, should Irespond?
He wants a question from us?
I know he does.
I can feel it brooding from him.
I was like so like I'd likebeer, you like beer?

Speaker 1 (19:37):
huh he said he was going to breweries, right?
Is that what happened?
I somehow, he like turned intotalking about beer.
Is that how it was, or oh?
We were talking, yeah, yeah, wewere like because we were
complaining about the trainwaiting and then we were talking
about how they should have abar so that people could wait.
That's what happened, right,people could wait and like have
a bar and actually have theyshould.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
They should make money off of it and then he
immediately, like matt, justsaid that you know, just making
pleasant conversation as we'rewaiting for this late train, and
he literally takes his phoneout and he's like oh, paddington
Station in London's got that.
And we're like excuse me, ohcool, yeah right.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Then he just Like Superman, taking off of his
normal outfit to get ready tosave the world, he busts open
his duster.
Thankfully he was wearingclothing.
I was getting worried aboutthat.
He busts open his duster toreveal a shirt that reads Beer
is made from hops.
Hops are plants, beer equalssalad.

(20:37):
But he doesn't acknowledge itat all.
He busts it open and then he'sjust Because it was closed we're
talking a little bit about beeropen.
And then he's just because itwas closed we're talking a
little bit about beer.
And then he's just like, walkpacing back and forth with his
duster wide open, showing offthis t-shirt.
So I think obviously justinviting us to ask him about it
so I think I finally broke andwas like oh, that's some shirt

(20:59):
you got there, huh yeah, becauseI'm like taking notes.
So I'm like taking notes of her, I'm trying to take notes of
our trip, so I immediately takemy phone out and start taking
notes about this guy.
And I definitely wanted to getwhat his shirt said.
So I kind of made it like oh,what's that shirt say?
So I could really look at it toreally say exactly what it was.
Yeah, I hate people like that.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
But then I asked him we got talking enough.
He's like, oh, what are youdoing there?
He's like, oh, I'm going tosome breweries.
And where did he say he wasgoing?
Ardmore.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
He was going to take like a freaking three-hour long
train ride.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, we crunched the numbers Like oh my gosh, yeah,
so he was already there 45minutes waiting for this thing
and then he just had anotherhour and that sweet hat.
But regardless.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
I think I said to I wrote the note in there is I
would rather deal with thecriminals in Norristown than
these chooches they have inPaoli.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Oh, and chooches they do have.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
It was crazy, that guy was weird.
So yeah, once you got on thetrain I don't think there was
much drama, correct?
No, it was fine, we were good.
We got out, we got off thetrain.
We kind of knew we were goingbecause I think we like, once we
got into the city, john washungry, we were both a little
ornery, so we got some italianbeef.
Couldn't find seating inReading Terminal.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
What it was Italian pulled pork, oh sorry, italian
pulled pork In Reading TerminalMarket.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah.
A little bit of a tradition Iguess we got.
Now.
We got them loaded up, Feltlike chooches.
We couldn't find a table, so weate in the mall, the gallery in
the mall next in the trainstation, we found this random
table.
It was.
It was hard.
It was a horrible experience.
We walked for miles looking fora place to sit down to finally
eat these sandwiches, but anyway.

(22:51):
So all that happened, john wasable to wash his hands.
He was happy, we got, we got.
We got a good, nice, cleanbathroom in the gallery.
That's it, I'm good, as if ourfans know I mean I wash them too
much, but I was, I was, I was ahappy camper so, finally, after
a 27 minute delay of the train,having to deal with this choose

(23:11):
with his uh beers made from hopshirt um, getting our food, not
being able to find seats, allthis stuff was happening.
It was kind of like a raining.
We parked 15 minutes away fromall this stuff was just like
boiling up like this.
It wasn't a bad day, but it waslike, wow, this is a process
like so far.
I don't know if you felt thatway I knew it was like.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
I feel like I knew it was going to be.
I feel like, just like when youhave a target, that is, a
museum that's open saturdays andsundays for half of the year
from noon to four, it's like Idon't know, the stars are gonna
have to align for this to go offwithout a hitch.
And you know again, becausewe're using septa and going into
philadelphia- and we're two,two freaking suburbanites going

(23:55):
into the city.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
You know, two people with no street smarts going into
the city.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
It's not a good, not a good situation that's why I
wanted that extra time give usthat buffer so we could get
there and the doors open, and wewere pretty close.
I feel like we got thereprobably at 1230.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
so we finally get in that.
We find it, we finally get inthere wait, let's tell them
where it is, it's in what oldcity well, yeah, they want to go
so it's on what's the street,what's the cross pine, and third
pine and third pine street andthird street in old city where
all of the historical stuff is.
Yeah, it's a nice area of thecity for sure.

(24:33):
If you're going to go into thecity of philadelphia, old city
is probably the place to go sure.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
If you're going to go into the city of Philadelphia,
Old City is probably the placeto go.
Yeah, if you could avoid allthe trains and everything and
just be teleported to anywherein Philadelphia, I'd probably
say that's the neighborhood.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah for sure.
So we finally get in.
It's an old house, old-lookingbrick house.
It's cool-looking, though it'sreally very it seems authentic.
We walk in, bust through thedoors and nobody's there except
these two national parks rangers, kind of lounging in the chairs
, just kind of like what's up?
That's kind of the feeling Igot, like I can't imagine how

(25:09):
many times they get peoplecoming in and they're just like
what is this, you know?
or like they're just surprisedwhen you run into people.
Yeah, so, um, you know, again Ibust in and, like I told the
two, we got to do kushuska'snumber one fan here and they
were like, oh, and then he had alittle bit of a talk about it.
They talked, he talked againabout the book that he read,

(25:30):
about him and they were like, oh, that's cool.
They kind of gave us a rundownhe busted out the book.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
He had the book too.
He said, oh, I'm also readingit, it's a great book.
You're leaving out key detailsto other fan fandom.
Other people have fan boy, fangirl vibes with this guy, so
okay.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
So so that he's talking to him and they're
having a good conversation withthem for the most part, but
they're kind of like, yeah,enjoy, enjoy, rightfully.
So they're having a goodconversation with them for the
most part, but they're kind oflike, yeah, enjoy, rightfully.
So they're like enjoy themuseum, this is kind of how it's
set up, and then enjoy.
So I'm walking around, my eyesjust focus onto this picture of
Tadeusz Kuszczusko in a bedsprawled out like in the Titanic

(26:18):
, the Rose from Titanic, naked,pose on on a couch.
The first thing I saw when Iwalked in there.
It was pretty wild it's, and itwas funny and like I was like
john, look at this picture.
I took a picture with my phoneand it just seemed to be the
most common theme of the museum.
You see that picture everywhere.
It's on the pamphlets of themuseum.
He's kind of like leaned upjust like roses, with his hand
on his head, like oh boy yeah, Ithink he was a little bit worse

(26:39):
shape than rose from titanicwell, but I'm just saying like
he's like got it.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
It's like he's got his head on his hand, you gotta,
you gotta see this picture youguys been, like all the national
parks always have like a littlebrochure you can take home and
the brochure for this placewhich they have you can grab
when you walk in.
It was that picture.
It was that painting of himlike holding his yeah on the
couch, like holding his hand tohis head, like, oh, they like

(27:06):
yeah, that it's an oi ve typepose, which is just it's funny.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
I think the reason that it's the picture like
there's obviously coolerpictures of this guy, but it's a
picture depicting his timerecovering at this house, so
that's why it's there.
Yeah, so we're walking around,so like the first, the first
area is like the museum is like,uh, his american revolution
stuff, kind of a lot of thestuff that we had already
learned about in saratoga.
But you know, as I'm likeperusing around, john's kind of,

(27:30):
we're all kind of perusingaround me and him are perusing
around, then in comes this womanand she's just busted.
She's like, hey, ha, how's itgoing?
And they're like, hey, how's itgoing?
She's like, ah, I, uh, I'm, Idon't know how she exactly
introduced herself, but she'slike I'm a history teacher in
fourth grade for fourth grade invirginia, and you know, I know

(27:52):
all about this guy.
This guy, yes, she did.
She's like, oh, yeah, I knowall about this guy.
Yeah, I, uh, I was justteaching about him or something
and I'm like, so, I'm likelistening, I'm like history
teacher interesting.
And then the, the, the nationalparks are.
They're like, oh, oh, that's,that's cool.
Yeah, yeah, he's a pretty goodguy.
She's like now he's the guy who, um, you know, taught the army

(28:16):
how to be an army.
And then it started dawning onme and I'm hearing about this,
uh-oh, this woman's confusinghim for Baron von Steuben
Classic mix-up.
And you know the National Parksare.
So she comes in trying to belike I'm so smart, I'm a history
teacher, I'll teach yougovernment employees, whatever,
and you could tell the nationalpark.

(28:37):
We're like, oh yeah, I guesskind of like you know they knew
it too.
And then like, yeah, I guess hekind of did.
But you might be thinking ofvon Steuben and I like nudge
John.
I'm like, oh boy, we gotanother one.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
Got one hook line and sinker on this one.
So it was just it wasembarrassing for the state of
America.
It was very embarrassing, itwas pretty embarrassing.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
I would have been embarrassed if I was her for
sure, and I think she maybe was,because I don't think she even
lasted very long in the park.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
It's a park, though it is a park, though it's the
smallest national park in theentire country.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
But she didn't last very long.
We park though it's thesmallest national park in the
entire, but she did, she didn'tlast very long.
She kind of got like we wereall like interesting, and then
whatever.
But the national park servicepeople were actually being kind
of nice about it because I guessat least they knew something.
But like she knew somethingabout it but she knew nothing
about kachusko for sure.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Once they started talking about she's like uh,
whatever she would have justbeen better off saying I was in
new york once, going up to theAdirondacks and I crossed over a
Cachusco Bridge.
That was really just part ofthe highway, an overpass, an
overpass, I mean she would havebeen better off with that, it
would have been less judgmental.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
So anyway.
So what I figured is thishistory teacher didn't know
about it this fourth gradehistory teacher from Virginia.
You know, I it this fourthgrade history teacher from
Virginia.
I guess we have to take it uponourselves as the Nailing
History Podcast to educate ourlisteners and any people, our
listeners and teachers andeverything.
As I said on my solo episode, Ihave a nephew in seventh grade

(30:08):
learning about American history,so hopefully he listens to this
episode and learns somethingfor himself about who this
fellow is and maybe he can, youknow, really impress his history
, his seventh grade historyclass, with some knowledge about
this guy.
So do you at that, with nofurther ado, before we really
get into the talk of how themuseum is, kind of just want to

(30:28):
go over kashusko's life.
Does that make sense, john?

Speaker 2 (30:32):
yeah, I think so.
Yeah, yeah, because the museumis not laid out.
Yeah, it's, it's very americancentric, I think, as matt said,
as you walk in.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
But uh, yeah, his life kind of like it starts off
like showing about his, hisamerican history, that then they
have one room.
It's small part, obviously.
It's a small park.
They have one room.
That's about his background.
Then you go upstairs and it'smore about his american stuff
and then they have the room.
But we'll get into that.
So let's just get started.
In his early life, this guy Imean there is there is something

(31:03):
to it.
Like I said when we startedthis episode, he does have a bit
of an air of philadelphiaanwith him in him, like a little
bit of a grit.
He's like a gritty guy.
So you know, we'll, you guys,we'll let you guys be the judge
on if we can present to you howhe was and let us know what you
think I do.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
He was born.
Go ahead and try to say hisfull name.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
Well, no, I'm not going to say that.
I was going to say he was borninto it.
He was raised in the middleclass.
I think we, I think as anAmerican people, we, you know
not to comment on anything more.
We may have heard that sentencea little too much in the last
three months.
If you guys can follow me, Buzzphrase oh boy, Anyway, John,

(31:48):
you got his name, you got hisfull name.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
He was born Andres Taduz Bonaventura, costa chusco.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
English translation andrew thaddeus bonaventure,
costa chusco in uh february of1746 so I will say one thing
that I left out with thenational park system people when
we first walked in was they?
One of the first things theydid was give us a lesson on how
to pronounce his name Cause,choose, go, yeah, cause we can't

(32:21):
.
I came in with I don't know howI pronounced it.
I know John's first timepronouncing it Wasn't right.
I mean it's it's a hard one todo it.
So we got it from the experts.
I, I, I can confidently saythat we are now pronouncing his
last name right Kozchusko,kozchusko, yeah, kozchusko.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, so he was, as Matt said, born middle class,
but I mean that wasn't really adistinction in the 18th century.
But he was not born poor, hewas not born into an aristocracy
, he was kind of like middle Iguess you'd call it middle
gentry.
So they had land, they had someserfs, who are people that work
the lands um.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
His dad was in the army.
His dad was in the army, whichwe know which.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Over history, that usually brings some credibility
and credentials and you get, youknow land and property,
whatever.
So he was born in a you knowwell, well enough to do you know
um for himself he went.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
He did go to school like his, you know, advanced for
advanced learning, but he hadto drop out because his family
did end up like losing money.
I think his brother dropped abunch of it.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
There's the family estate and, um, you know he, he
became a military engineerthat's kind of what he's known
for the revolution.
But he did a lot ofself-teaching.
Uh, he became a really gooddrawer.
Uh at one point, yeah early onhis life, before he came to
america, uh he went to franceand, uh, other parts of europe

(33:48):
where he was kind of self-taughtand because he was polish he
couldn't actually enroll intoany of these academies.
We know these, these military.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
Well, he did he was a member.
He did join a polish academycalled the corps of cadets that
educated military officers inpoland and he did graduate from
that.
He graduated from that, became alieutenant, a lieutenant and
then became a student instructor.
So he was very interested, itseemed.
I gather he was very interestedin the science and real, the

(34:19):
real knowledge of mill.
It's like the real strategy andscience of military from an
early age to the point whereeven though he graduated I guess
at that point there maybewasn't an active war to do so he
felt the need to instruct.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
So he was definitely more on the side of the, the
nerd end of military yeah, hejust he kind of, I think, looked
at a whole picture andcertainly engineering, you know,
it's a major part of wars andlogistics.
I think he kind of definitelytook to that, but he, he wasn't
afraid to run from a fight, aswe'll find out later in his life
, um, but yeah he was.

(34:53):
He kind of became more or lessself-taught and went to all
these different academies, youknow, and kind of just was a fly
on the wall, you know, inFrance and the like.
But to kind of give a biggerpicture of kind of you know why
kind of the world he was borninto, or I guess that he, you
know, became a man in, really soat the time.

(35:14):
Poland wasn that he became a manin, really so at the time
Poland was its independentkingdom, but over the course of
his life it would slowly becarved up by the three major
powers in Central Europe at thetime, which were Austria,
prussia and Russia, and sobasically all three of these

(35:35):
great powers were kind ofseething at the mouth, foaming
at the mouth, you know, tryingto basically, you know, have
their own influence and sway andtake some land and property and
take land away effectively fromthe Polish and Lithuanian, you
know, residents and yeah.
So the Russians were very, very,um, very big and kind of, you

(35:59):
know, having their sway.
Catherine the great, who wasthe Empress of Russia at the
time, she kind of shacked upwith the King of Poland to try
to have influence and sway onhim.
But um, yeah, when he was, whenhe was of age so after, but
yeah, when he was of age, so notlong after he graduated from
that Corps of Cadets in Warsaw,you had the first partition of
Poland and that's when theyfirst started getting kind of

(36:22):
carved away.
He didn't fight in that one.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
He was too busy, kind of running around trying to
flirt with a very influentialand very wealthy aristocrat, his
daughter.
Well, you're kind of missing apoint of his life which part.
He traveled around to Paris andhe did return to Poland when
that was going on, but at thatpoint his brother lost a ton of
the family, money and land whilehe was away in Europe.
And when he came back, that'swhen he couldn't afford an

(36:57):
officer's commission and that'swhy he ended up not joining the
army, that's right.
So it's not that he was toobusy, it was that he couldn't
afford an officer's commission,so he wasn't able to.
He wasn't noble enough.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
So because of that then he ended up just becoming a
tutor for some fancy man, and Idon't know was that in france
or was that in switzerland no,this was in back in poland,
where he took a tutoring for thefancy man for the fancy man's
daughter, who he took a shiningto, who he took a liking to,
yeah, and they basically theysecretly eloped, and then word

(37:38):
got back to the dad and he'slike uh-uh, like you can't marry
out of your class and you'recertainly not going to marry my
daughter.
So he basically had to flee forhis life.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Um, you know his dad had these his henchmen like beat
it, beat it, beat him up andchase him after him.
So he bailed because of that.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yeah, he bailed and he eventually got wind that
there was a revolution going onin America.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
And he fled to Paris, and that's where he found out.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, because I guess it was all the talk.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
It was all the talk in Paris which would make sense.
The French hated Britain, sothey're like oh, these Americans
, they're trying to good forthem, but I don't know if that's
going to happen.
I think that kind of gave himlike oh, underdog story, that's
all about me.
Remember PhiladelphiaKosciuszko?
That sounds familiar.
Polish Getting shafted.

(38:34):
You think about the BroadStreet bullies.
He probably would have been amember.
A little underdog action.
So yeah, so he learned aboutthat.
Then he came to America.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, one month after the Declaration of Independence
was signed.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
He was jacked up because he smelled revolution
and he was all about revolutionfrom the whole situation with
Poland and Russia and he was anadvocate of human rights and
just the American culture ingeneral.
So he was all pumped up and waslike I'll go, I'll sign up,
Even if he's not part of hiscountry.
He's like I'll do it.

(39:10):
He sees oppression from Britain, from England, I guess america,
and he wanted to be a part ofit yeah, definitely a son of
liberty, because unfortunately,he wasn't allowed to do it for
his own country that's right.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
So he had to go to an adopted land, which america
would certainly become in hislife.
But uh yeah.
So he shows up in philadelphiain august of 1776 and I guess he
gets I don't know how he getshis address.
He manages to find his way toBen Franklin's house and he
basically just goes to his door,knocks on the door and says hi,
I want to sit your officer'sexam, like I want to.

(39:45):
You know he thought Engineer'sexam.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Sorry Wasn't it, it was an engineer's exam.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Engineer's officer I think they were included
together but just like a veryformal exam.
He thought, you know, like theyhave in France, or you know,
the older countries of Europe.
He thought, oh, america, theymust have like a formal way of
assessing who could be aqualified officer or engineer,
what have you?
And Ben Franklin's like, yeah,we don't have that, but he did

(40:10):
say I can give you a geometryexam, maybe a little more basic
for you.
So he gives him that andCachusco crushes it flying
colors.
And Ben Franklin's like,effectively, like you're hired,
Like let me talk to my peoplebeing, you know, those people
being like John Hancock, andwe'll get you commissioned into

(40:33):
the army.
And that's kind of whathappened.
Yeah, he was given an assignmentand one of the first things he
did was put these spikes in theDelaware River, that kind of
like you put these rocksformation and then you have
these like wooden pikes stickingout of it in the water.
So if there was like anyBritish ships coming into trying
to make their way into Philly,puncture the holes of the ship,

(40:55):
and Ben Franklin was superimpressed by that.
So like wow, we got a smart onehere.
We can't let this guy go.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Let's send them up to northern New York, upstate New
York.
Yeah, so they send them up toupstate New.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
York.
One of the first places he'ssent to is Fort Ticonderoga.
He's asked to kind of surveythat and, um, the big thing that
happened there is, you know,again he comes here.
He's this polish guy.
Actually everyone thought hewas french because he only spoke
french, um, so they didn't evenknow he was polish.
But he goes up to fortticonderoga and, you know, he

(41:27):
kind of does his assessment andthere's apparently fort
ticonderoga, which is way inupstate new york, not far from
where matt and I were, but it'sup on the hudson river, it's
north of saratoga, um, superimportant, um you know,
fortification at the time and uh, I think it's a place where
benedict arnold gets pantsed atone point.
Ethan allen, didn't we talkabout that once?

(41:50):
They?
were sent up there.
Anyway, he's up there and he'sasked, like you know, he's
trying to do his assessment andfind ways to fortify.
And he, this guy, he alwayssaid we got to find the high
ground, you know we.
So there's this, there's thissite, overlooking fort
ticonderoga, and he's like wegot to put cannons up there, we
got to put guns up there,because if we don't do it, the
british are going to and therest of it forget, don't be such

(42:13):
a worry.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
War to to do's, don't worry about it, we're good.
That's crazy.
That's too much work.
Classic, I mean.
This is just like um there'sprobably not many listeners who
live in my world, but thedifference between engineers and
construction workers, this isthe battle that we deal with.
The same exact thing like well,maybe we should do that, don't

(42:36):
worry about it.
College, oh, would you learnthat and would you read that in
the book one time?
High ground dirt.
I'm not doing that.
I'm not doing that.
It's too much work.
It's classic.
That's what happened.
And guess what?
Bit him in the butt.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Bit him in the butt they did not choose to, you know
, to arm this high ground, putcannon up there and, you know,
basically has defensive worksagainst the british.
Long story short, british endup doing it.
And then, very soon after, theamericans have to evacuate for
ticonderoga and the british Ithink everyone was like, oh man,
maybe we should listen to thatguy yeah, made a bit of a
whoopsie, but he's actuallypartly responsible.

(43:14):
So they all flee and they haveto come down south, down the
Hudson River, and that's kind ofwhere this campaign that would
culminate in Saratoga begins.
So they start making their waydown south on the Hudson River
and he's his team are kind offinding ways to fell the trees

(43:38):
so that they can delay theBritish from moving quickly.
They're trying to get to NewYork City.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
This is all to stop them from taking the Hudson down
to New York City.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yes, because you get that.
I mean, that was the waterwayof the colonies, that was one of
the major waterways up intofrench canada or british canada,
sorry.
Um, yeah, if the british got incontrol all of the hudson river
, it would be bad news bears.
So, yeah, so they're comingdown after they abandoned fort

(44:08):
ticonderoga, they're fellingtrees.
They do a really successful job, so, whatever he did.
So his superiors startednoticing oh, like that actually
really bought us some valuabletime.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
I think that and the Ticonderoga thing they're like
this guy knows what he's talkingabout.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Yeah, they're like oh , you know, he wasn't.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
Let's give him a shot .
He wasn't on rock star status.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
yet he was like oh, this guy's smart, this Polish
engineer can't say his name,can't write his name.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
we'll keep an eye on, seems like a bit of a goof ball
.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
I heard he got he I heard he got right out of poland
chasing some what a loser.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
But let's start listening to him.
Classic classic engineer vcontractor thing.
Like you know, this guy's justtelling us what to do.
He's not doing it himself, likethat kind of stuff, and he was
self-conscious.
But then they say so, then theyget.
They get the.
You know, we already talkedabout saratoga's, we don't
really need to get into it anymore detail.
But they get to saratoga andthey say, all right, let's give
this guy a shot right, yeah, sohe fortifies bemis heights he

(45:04):
comes up with his plan and theyfinally listen to him and they
win, they win, yeah, and theygive him a lot of credit for it.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
Give him a lot of credit for it.
France sides with us.
Word gets to France.
Ben Franklin, at that point hewould have been a diplomat, an
ambassador, out there.
He got word and he would havebeen milking that for everything
he could.
The French and Americanalliance would begin as a result
of this battle.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Then Kachusko gets down the West Point.
George Washington is like thisguy's the man.
Everybody starts liking thisguy.
Let's start listening to him.
But then I think in classicto-dos fashion, where people he
was more of a salt of the earthtype guy, growing up middle

(45:51):
class as we talked about he'slike like you know what, I'm
ready to get my hands dirty, I'mdone with this engineering
thing, or maybe not necessarilydone with it, but I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna.
I want to do a little bit more.
And he asked for a commissionto be able to get some guys to
fight and actually get his handsdirty down and down south yeah,
george washington personallygranted gachusco's request to

(46:14):
transfer to combat duty with theSouthern Army.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
And yeah, because his West Point fortifications were
praised as very innovative atthe time, and so Washington was
like all right, dude, you can dowhatever you want, you're
single-handedly winning this warfor us.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
So the North was taken care of pretty much at
this point, with all the stuffthat was done Saratoga and all
that stuff, the North was Ingeneral there wasn't much action
anymore and it was all down theSouthern Theater.
So I think Kosciuszko realizedthat and was like I want to get
down there, I want to get myhands dirty.
So then he started fighting andhe started fighting under my

(46:50):
boy, nathaniel Green, who wasrunning the show down there.
Nathaniel green loved him andthey did some.
They did some damage down there.
I don't know if there's anydefinitive like wow, a big
change for making these boats,these like flat bottom boats
that were super important.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
In one, I think, there was one battle which
wasn't going well it would usethose boats to cross the river,
otherwise they would have beenrouted.
Yeah, um so anyway.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
So, yeah, it was in me.
There was, I think, one point.
He was in the last, he wasinvolved in the last major
skirmish in the war, but onething that I read that was
pretty cool.
Uh, he had a sword that hecarried around with him during
the war and it was, and it wasinscribed with the words do not
draw me without reason, do notsheath me without honor.
Pretty cool, that's prettyawesome.

(47:36):
Now that is.
Uh, I was thinking that wouldbe a pretty funny tattoo to put,
like I guess maybe your bicepwould be cool like don't draw me
without I don't know, like onboth arms, just like half the
logo, don't draw me withoutreason.
Don't sheath me without honor,like in the middle.
Yeah, that'd be pretty cool.
Uh, I was thinking.
It just reminded me maybeCharles Lee could have used that

(47:58):
advice during the Battle ofMonmouth, where he was
retreating and Washington saysyou might not have undertaken it
unless you intended to gothrough with it when he talked
about how he was retreating.
So I thought pretty polaropposites between Charles Lee
and Tadeusz K kishusko and Iwonder what to do's kishusko
would have thought of charleslee.

(48:19):
Probably would have.
Probably would have scoffed athim oh, I'd say so yeah so yeah,
so then, so then, I guess justnot getting too much in the
weeds.
Then, after the war he leavesback for poland.
But as john, as john suggested,or john already alluded to, he
didn't get paid for a serviceyeah, um late 1783 he was became

(48:40):
.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
He became a naturalized american citizen.
So after the war and after thetreaty of paris was concluded,
he was deemed a naturalizedcitizen.
And uh, he was going to beresponsible for putting on a
fireworks display for the 4th ofJuly of that year.
But he's like, I got to go, Igot to go.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
I got to get my home.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Yeah, but he was promoted to.
Brigadier General too.
That was the big thing.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
But he did receive a certificate.
While he was, before he left,he received a certificate which
I guess is like a promise orlike a I don't know a bond.
Promissory note right, which Iguess is like a promise or like
a I don't know a bond, that hewould receive $12,280 at 6%
interest, which in in $2,022that's $323,000, paid in

(49:30):
installments of $19,400 a month.
That's pretty sweet.
That's a lot of money for, likenot that much many years of
work right 1776 to 1783.
Seven years, I guess that's not.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
I don't know if all generals were given that, but
that was a big point ofcontention Everyone's like well,
he needs to be.
He needs to leave the servicewith a general's commission in
order to be qualified for thatpay, as well as 500 acres of
land.
We look at it now.
How much every property costs.
Now Imagine me sitting on 500acres of land.

(50:12):
I think it was in Ohio is wherethey were giving it to them.
It was now Ohio.
It's a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
I guess you're not up on the current lingua of the
youth generation, but the wordOhio means like whack.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
I do not know that Also state what you never heard,
that.
No.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's a whole thing where, like, if you
say like dude, that's so ohio,that means like it's whack.
So my uh, I'm learning from mynephew who hates to talk about
it.
But yeah, like, if you haveohio r, it means like you're
whack.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
So what if you say, like that's Ohio.
You're just describing somescene in Cincinnati.
You're like, oh, it's so Ohio.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
Well, I think that's.
The point is like Ohio's lamePeople from Ohio are lame, so
you're saying to do is couldchoose go.
I'm just saying the land mightnot be worth that much if kids
these days are calling itskibbity out there.
You got to get up with thelingo, john, but anyway, yeah, I
get it.
So he got promised mad bank,but I guess at that point you

(51:27):
could promise anybody, anythingMade a general, you could
promise anybody anything,because they weren't going to
get it anyway, so whatever.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
When Washington gave down his commission in Francis
Tavern up in New York, he wasthere right along the side.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
He was like crying, conducted into the.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Society of the Cincinnati and he wore that
medal.
A lot of the paintings he's inthere's a picture of him wearing
the medal from the Society ofthe Cincinnati, which is yeah,
it was a super important.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Um, yeah, so anyway, so really his real claim to fame
, like in the worldwide historywe haven't even got to yet,
because then he leaves phil, heleaves america back for poland
and when he gets back to polandagain his brother's still being
a bum, losing his, losing hisfamily's land and losing his
money.
So he still can't afford anofficer's commission.
But then he finally gets it in1789.

(52:20):
An officer's commission.
He gets paid 12 grand zillots ayear it was lotties, I don't
know how you say it which isapparently a lot of money.
It takes care of his financialproblem once he finally becomes
an officer in the polish army.
So then in 1792, as john kindof alluded to poland's getting
split up, russia really wantedpoland and all this stuff was

(52:42):
going on.
Then finally, in 1792, the runfor like the third time, or you
know one final like while he'sover there 1792, the russian
army crossed the polish border,finally starting the
polish-russian war of 1792.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah, yeah, katherine the great was furious that the
polish, they polish in in savingthe vein of the american
revolution, the frenchrevolution.
They came out with aconstitution which, you know,
absolute monarchs hate.
Uh, you know, she wanted tohave all this influence in
poland and she's like, yeah,we're not having any of that.
And so russian troops moved inhe was an officer.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
He didn't lose a single battle during that war,
even though they, the poland orwhatever, whatever the
commonwealth, whatever youconsider, they lost the war, but
tk didn't lose a single battle.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Yeah, the Russians had a three to one advantage in
men too.
So I mean, it was probably aforegone conclusion, but they
fought hard and yeah, but hethen eventually would lead an
uprising that now bears his nameIn 1794.
Uh, that now bears his name in1794.

(53:59):
1794 fought very diligently.
But in that battle, uh, wherehe was dressed as one of this is
where he got his name thepeasant prince, it's his
nickname.
He uh, you know, leading hisarmy of literal peasants.
They were, he was armed.
They were arming peasants whowere going to fight this.
You know, trained informalrussian army, uh, you know, they
held their own and he donned apeasant's coat so he wasn't able
to be seen on the battlefield.

(54:20):
So, like the russians couldn'tjust target an officer, you know
, back in the day if you were ona horse and you had all these
medals on and stuff, it's likeyou were kind of a clear sign
that you were an officer and aneasy target.
So he kind of just kind of keptit a bit more of a low profile,
but uh yeah, he did take a,sustained a major injury, two
major injuries.
He took a pike in the back andhe got his sciatic nerve severed

(54:44):
.
So then he ended up fallinglike face down in the mud and
the Russians were looking forthis officer who, you know, has
just been the bane of theirexistence for a number of years
at this point, and uh, theyeventually find him and uh, haul
him away to russia on, uh, onkath and the greats orders.

(55:04):
And uh, yeah, then he's takento russia, and along with what.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
So they found other polls yeah, and they at this
point.
You know, just in the grandscheme of history, poland failed
to exist after this.
This was the end of polandafter this uprising.
This was the final end ofpoland as a country for 123
years.
Yep, so that was the impactthat that played.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
Um, yeah, so his country is gone his home country
effectively just off the map.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
Yeah, so he was bombed, that he fought so hard
for he was bombed.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yeah, so then he would spend the next two years
in a Russian prison, and one ofthe key things that happened was
I mean he probably would have,he might have just rotted there
for the rest of his life hadCatherine the Great kept living.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
But she died and her son, paul I who hated his mother
.
He hated her, he was like Mommy, uh-huh, I don't know what I
was gonna say.
I was gonna say something likeyou know.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
mom doesn't understand never let me do my
thing.
I want to run a empire.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Yeah, I kind of get that feeling from him like, um,
I want to.
You know when's it going to bemy turn, mommy?

Speaker 2 (56:15):
yeah, I think that's what it was maybe he knew that
by freeing, like to destroy herlegacy, by freeing this polish
patriot who she hated, like thatwould really just chap her in
the grave, you know.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
So what was on condition of his release?

Speaker 1 (56:31):
He was given a lot of rubies, substantial amount of
money and he was able to leaveRussia.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
He was given the money, a sword and a sweater not
a sweater, but that's what Iwrote down A bare skin jacket I
don't even know A jacket swordand a sweater, not a sweater,
but that's what I wrote down.
What is your skin?
Uh jacket I don't even I don'thave a jacket coat, maybe a coat
, and he ended up giving it.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
He gave it to his boy , thomas jefferson.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
It was a cool coat it's a cool coat and if you ever
go to the jefferson memorialyou see the statue of thomas
jefferson in that memorial.
He's wearing that coat and it'shis official presidential
portrait.
He's also wearing the coat ohreally, yeah.
So if you ever see a picture, apainting of jeff thomas
jefferson rocking like a crazy,like bear skin coat.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
It's the coat that kachushka gave him so freaking
cool.
Hey, so when the poland failedto exist for these 123 years,
like I said, was the 123 yearsthe end of world war one and
that's like the 14 points andeverything that we were talking.
Look at that connection, do yougo?
Look at that connection?
Anyway, just to make a pointthat kashusko really was

(57:37):
conflicted on agreeing to thoseterms of being released from
prison because he didn't want topledge allegiance to russia.
The only reason he did itwasn't for the money, wasn't for
the sweet sword, wasn't for thecool bearskin coat, but it was
because they were going torelease um, like 20 000 ex like,
uh prisoners polish yeah, itwas that fault in some cases.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Yeah, like some of these peasants who fought with
him.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
That's the only reason like it was like I'll do
it, you give me that stuff, Idon't care about that stuff.
But really the only reason I'mdoing it, which I think he tried
to make it as clear as possible, was like I don't care about
that stuff, which is why he gavethe sweater away.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
He's, I don't even want this I mean, he's probably
a little like kind of feeling alittle down too, because he gave
an oath of loyalty.
It wasn't just that he wasgiven stuff and you can go.
He had a given oath of loyalty,and then Paul said well, we'll
give you some stuff too to getyou on your feet.
You've been in prison for twoyears and just don't go.
Don't flee Europe now.
Don't go fleeing Europe on us,because we'll have our spies on

(58:35):
you.
Yeah, but don't come back toPoland.
There's no Poland for you.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
So he got, even though Poland didn't exist area,
yeah, gone um, and so he left.
And where's he going to go?
His second?

Speaker 2 (58:53):
home, philadelphia, pennsylvania, birthplace of
freedom.
Yeah, right, that's right.
So he was still on the mend.
He was not.
I don't think those wounds werereally healing very well in a r
prison.
So, yeah, he managed to fleeEurope.
He had some Russian spies onhis tail, as I briefly mentioned
, and so he kind of had to givehim the slip.
So he had to flee to Americavia Stockholm and London and he

(59:20):
left Britain in June of 1797,and he arrived in Philadelphia
on August 18th and he was givena hero's welcome by the town in
June of 1797, and he arrived inPhiladelphia on August 18th.
And he was given a hero'swelcome by the town, although…
Not John Adams and his boys,yeah as some of our fans know,
in 1797, the Federalists were inpower, john Adams was in power,
it was Alien and Sedition Actand a possible war with France

(59:42):
were on the table.
So he kind of showed up at abit of a precarious time in this
country.
But no, he had a hero's welcomeand Thomas Jefferson welcomed
him basically with open arms andyeah.
But the reason why he ended upat this little house on 3rd and

(01:00:02):
Pine is because he had asecretary of his.
I won't say his name because I'dbutcher it, but he'd been with
him for a while and a lot of do,a lot of his travels and
whatnot.
And he basically told hissecretary, like, find me the
cheapest, you know, find me adwelling as small, as remote and
as cheap as possible.

(01:00:23):
And so what his secretary foundwas this boarding house on pine
street.
Uh, that was run by a mrs annralph and uh, yeah, he got a
little room on the what was it?
The second floor, second floorof the house second floor.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Yeah, and they actually.
The place was so small thatthis museum, which is tiny to
begin with, was actually twohouses merged together.
They blew through the middlewall so that you could actually
have room to walk around, so itwas even half the size of what
we were going through, but theydo have a.
They have a little idea of whatthe museum, what his room,

(01:01:01):
would have looked like.
You can't go inside.
It's behind glass, similar tothe Washington's tent, which is
kind of lame, yeah.
But you could look in and seethere were some cool things in
there the, uh, chess board.
He was probably pretty good atchess, be my guess.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Um so he only stayed.
He only stayed at this, at thishouse, boarding house, from
august 1797 until March of 1798.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
So what Like seven or eight months.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Seven, eight months, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
One thing that we did see in that room, john, that we
should mention was that hatchetpeace pipe that we saw, which I
thought was cool.
You pointed that out.
You're like look at that, thatthing's cool.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
That was a gift to him by Chief Little Turtle of
the Miami tribe.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
Which.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
A very prominent visitor, along with.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
It was a very familiar thing to see because,
as I believe we talked about onour Harper's Ferry trip, that
was also shown in the Lewis andClark In the Lewis Merriweather
exhibit at Harper's Ferry assomething that they would bring
with them to give as a gift tothe Native.
Americans.
So maybe that Peace, and somaybe that might have been.

(01:02:09):
What if that peace pipe wasactually from Louis Merriweather
and just made its way back toCusco?
It's possible.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Well, the one from Merriweather.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
Same way that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
What Wasn't Merriweather?

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
giving that in 1803?
.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
So Cusco went for the .

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
Maybe Meriwether jacked it from Kuchuska and was
like, oh possible, maybe, maybethere's like a skirmish that
they had.
They had a big fight,meriwether and Kuchuska.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Historical record questions it, but maybe ChachiPT
can give us a.
What if?
Yeah maybe Possibility, butyeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
Sorry, I had my timeline off there.
Fans, sorry my bad.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
So in this seven months that he was recuperating
he had a number of visitors cometo see him, one of the most
important being was the vicepresident at the time, thomas
Jefferson, and they formed areally close bond during his
stay and one that would kind ofstay with them the rest of their
lives.
They'd exchange a lot ofletters for the majority of most

(01:03:15):
of their lives after the fact.
And, yeah, as I said, a chieflittle turtle of the Miami
Supreme Court, justice, chiefjustice or Williamiam patterson,
and a number of others visitedhim in his sort stay.
So word got out, you know.
Did you hear he's back in town?
Do you hear he's back in town?
The south street baller, orwhat is it?

(01:03:37):
South street brawlers?

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
broad street bully.
Yo, let's talk to him.
I heard I heard stuff wentpretty crazy over in poland.
Let's get some stories, get thedirt, let's get the tea yeah
dude like he's like in there.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
They showed like dude what happened bro and he's got
his bandage on his head andsomeone's painting him.
He's like, oh hey, and there'slike a painter painting him, oh
yeah but he was like a rock star.
so he he's like the of the sale,like of like a marquis de
lafayette Some of our fans wetalked about before like just a
big deal foreign fighter kind ofthing, who really had a big

(01:04:15):
impact on the fight and on thehistory of this country.
But he was so much more thanthat.
I mean, as lafayette probablyhad stuff in france during the
french revolution, kachushkaobviously lived a you know call
it a second life in europe, but,um, always one for liberty
ultimately which ultimately hehad to get back to after seven

(01:04:37):
or eight months in philadelphiacertainly did.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
He only spent that much and you know he went back
to france.
You know how he got back to fr.
His boy, tj, hooked him up witha fake passport.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
Classic.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
That is epic dude.
That's a cool little tidbitthere.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
That's cool.
Think about that.
The vice president of thecountry is always like don't
worry about it, I got you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
Well, you know why he did it?
Because part of the reason whyhe had to leave was because of
the Alien and Sedition Act.
He's like I got to get out ofhere, I'm going to get in prison
, and TJ's like I got you fam,Because TJ was part of the
Sedition Act too.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Well, I need his support.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
The whole purpose of that Alien and Sedition Act was
a way for possibly to get ThomasJefferson arrested for talking
trash on John Adams.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
From the Federalist.
It was the Federalist's way,let me just say, john Adams,
just say the Federalist's way oftrying to silence their
opposition.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
John Adams is more of a puppet, I feel like at that
point.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
So yeah, Hamilton, you could probably say boom
trying.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
So they were like I got you dog, I got you dog, I'm
going to get you a fake passport.
And he's like, oh, I don't knowwhat about.
And then Thomas Jefferson'slike, don't worry about it, I'm
going to break the Constitutionin a couple years anyway when I
buy Louisiana, so don't worryabout it, I'm a lawbreaker.
What an awesome team.
That would be a cool.
They would be like a Batman andRobin situation.

(01:06:02):
I feel like and surprisingly tomost people, I feel like
Kosciuszko would have beenBatman to Thomas Jefferson's
Robin.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
For a time.
Yeah, I would say so, he hadthe fight.
I mean, Jefferson never foughtin the revolution or anything
else.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
But he did before he left.
He did collect his back pay, Ibelieve, for his service, but I
think he only got the principal.
I think is what we.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Well, yeah, he wanted to, he was going to take the
principal, because that iscorrect.
But so in this relation, thebig thing, in this relationship
that he would end up in bond hewould form with thomas jefferson
, it was kind of they had areally close friendship from you
know sake of you know, talkingabout liberty and and in the
early days of of the americanrepublic.

(01:06:47):
But a big note was thatkachuska was a a big proponent
of call it individual liberty,no matter your, you know, race
or or or, uh, or othercircumstance, nationality.
So he couldn't understand,coming from Poland where he had

(01:07:08):
serfdom, which was effectivelyslavery was existent.
He couldn't see how could youcome here and fight for the
cause of liberty and freedom andstill have all these slaves in
your society?
So an agreement that he came towith Thomas Jefferson.
He said well, hey, I'll takesome of my principal money that
Congress owes me, but I want touse interest and I want to set

(01:07:31):
up my whole estate to free theslaves, and not only just any
slaves, but I want to buy yourslaves, I want to manumit your
slaves.
So when you die, I want mymoney to pay for your slaves.
I want to man you met.
I want to man.
You met your slaves, so whenyou die, I want my money to pay
for your slaves.
Freedom didn't know, thatdidn't eventually did not end up

(01:07:53):
happening and his will gotreally complicated and was yeah
because thomas jefferson waslike I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
When he got to a certain age he's like I can't do
this anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
Sorry, tk got complicated, yeah and like up
until the 1850s they they werestill looking at can we execute
Kachuska as well?
And it was like, no, this thingis dated and it's done, so but
yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
So yeah.
So he went back to France, metup with our boy Napoleon.
Turns out TK and Napoleon notthem boys as much as he thought
they could be.
Tk and TJ were not them boys asmuch as he thought they could
be.
Tk and tj were them boys.
Tk and napoleon were not themboys.
I don't think he really trustedhim well, he got excited that
there was.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
So he got word when he was still in philly that he
was getting letters saying, hey,like we got these you know some
of his polish comrades orwhatever hey, we got this new,
you got this another upstart,bon Bonaparte, napoleon, who's
like taking over Europe, andmaybe you know he's taking out
all of these, you knowmonarchies and you know, maybe
he can help the Polish fight,maybe he can help us get Poland

(01:08:57):
back.
And so he got excited by that.
That's when he was like I gotto go, I got to go, I got to
meet this guy, we got to worktogether, we got to put our
heads together here.
And yeah, by the time, by thewhat, 1798, 99, I don't think
Napoleon had called himselfemperor just yet, but it was

(01:09:17):
getting pretty close.
Cachusco, like a lot of peoplein America.

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
Hey, we all know how easy that is to do, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
It happens.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
It happens Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Exactly that is to do .
Yeah, it happens.
It happens exactly exactly 50years before our boy, before mr
norton.
But, um, yeah, I mean,obviously, I mean kachuska,
although he was a majorproponent of human rights and
individual liberty, call it uh,he thought, like many in america
, he thought the frenchrevolution, you know, while it
started out?
Well, in principle obviously inaction.
It didn't end up a littletouching, a little out of hand.

(01:09:50):
So the reign of terror, so hethought it was abhorrent.
So I think when he saw someonelike Napoleon come in, bring
some level of stability, orwhatever.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
I don't think he saw it any better than what Russia
was doing, I would guess.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
I think he came to that conclusion about Napoleon.
He was just a tyrant.
Yeah, he called him a tyrantand he called him.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
He's doing to these other countries what Russia did
to Poland.
Exactly, I think that's kind ofhow he felt, yeah.
But then after the fall ofNapoleon Alexander, I wanted TK
to return to the Polish area tomake things chill in poland
again, like kind of like.

(01:10:29):
He wanted him to be like uh, uh, like a good ally to russia,
like in poland, I think, so theycould like kind of rule it
together or whatever.
But you know which he was, Ithink, excited about at first,
but then when he got there andrealized how small Poland was
going to be like, how littleland they were actually going to

(01:10:50):
give as like to recognize thisPoland, he called it a joke.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
Yeah, they wanted to kind of Napoleon, kind of wanted
to masquerade him around, solike so this was after Napoleon
is what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
This was, this was alexander the first who wanted
him to come back and be boyswith russia oh, so I was
referring to napoleon andnapoleon's foreign secretary, or
foreign tolerant.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
I could see them.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
I could see them there's probably.
He probably had well not tointerrupt, but I think what
you're getting to maybe is thatKosciuszko had this
representation of being like avery a revolutionary but with a
very just, noble cause, andmaybe I think if Napoleon like,
hey, this guy's on my side,everyone it may be legitimate

(01:11:39):
his like is legitify a word.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
It legitimizes what their actions Legitimize
Francis' actions, whatever theymay be.
Yeah, so, exactly right.
So Napoleon's French minister,talleyrand, basically petitioned
Kachusko for moral and publicendorsement for the French fight
against Prussia, who were oneof the partitioners of Poland,

(01:12:06):
of poland.
And I think, yeah, there was.
I think kachuska wised up, likeyou said, to there being an
ulterior motive to francewanting his support.
He's like, oh, you just want mebecause I'm a face and I'm an
image and I have all thishistory and you just want to use
me for that.
But you're just as big of ajoke as these clowns in russia
and prussia and austria yeah,it's a whole thing's, it's just
a mess.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
He didn't trust any of it At that point, I think he
didn't have a home.
He didn't see himself getting ahome, so he just continued to
live the rest of his life inFrance and Switzerland.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
Yeah, back and forth.
So I guess whatever he said didnot get his head cut off.
I mean, he obviously whateverhe said.
I think he got enough respectand street cred through all of
his years of fighting and whathe did around the world that
Napoleon just, I guess, left himalone.
He just stayed in France.

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
Well then, he wound up in Switzerland, which is
where he died.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
He did end up in Switzerland.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
He died after falling off a horse and then died of
stroke complications.
Afterwards, thomas Jeffersonwrote a letter I guess you could
pretty much sum up whatKosciuszko actually meant to the
country and in the words ofThomas Jefferson.
When he died, he wrote a letterto Franz Zeltner, who was
Kosciuszko's host family whilehe lived in Switzerland.

(01:13:18):
The opening sentence is Sir Ireceived, but lately, your favor
of October 29th.
Sir I received, but lately,your favor of October 29th
announcing to us the death ofGeneral Kuzhchusko.
To no country could that eventbe more afflicting, nor to any
individual more than to myself.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
Which I think means he was bombed that his boy died.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
They were, what was he?

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
71 when he died.
What is that?
1817.
1817 minus 71.
There you go.
71.
A hero on multiple continents.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
So that was the life of Cuscusco.
Did we leave anything out, John?

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
No, we do after.
So his body was kind of when hedied, they kind of cut up his
body a little bit to honor him.
So his heart is in the royalcastle of Warsaw I think to this
day there's a picture of it onhis Wikipedia page and then the
rest of his remains wereinterned at the Wal-Wal
Cathedral in a sarcophagus inKrakow.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
Where's that?
So, both in Poland, yeah, sowe'll get a little bit more.
I want to just get our finalthoughts on him at some point.
You know just a little summary,but I think that's a pretty
good description of his life.
We went on pretty long, but Ithink he deserved it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
He did a lot.
He did a lot for the years.
So let's just get back toreality.
So that's the story of him andlet's just wrap up our trip to
the museum.
So then, as we were leaving,you know one thing just to get
back to like current present day, as you would say, we're
leaving the museum, we gothrough the whole museum, spend
a decent amount of time there.
I want to say we probably spenta little bit over an hour there,
right, yeah, I'd say about anhour, easily, maybe two.

(01:15:20):
I mean, we spent a long timethere, for how small it is and,
uh, you know, we were the lastones there.
We're well, yeah, so a couplepeople walked in the teacher did
and other whatever, and aswe're leaving, we're the only
ones there and get up to thedesk and we're just like.
We're like let's talk to theseguys.
You know these, these, the samepark rangers, were just still
lous in their chair, justchilling, you know, and I think

(01:15:43):
I don't know how we startedtalking about it, but I guess
did we just say like, how, how,when, how did you guys wind up
working at this museum?
I don't know exactly how westarted talking about that and
it was great, and they were likeyeah, dude, you know, I'm just
gonna.
They were very professionalabout it and like kind of nerdy,
because they're like well, Idon't want to say that because
you might be listening they'revery professional about.
But they were basically like Idon't know, man, we just split

(01:16:05):
time with the IndependenceNational Park, which is
Independence Hall and all thatstuff, over the more popular
area for sure, because thisplace is only open eight hours a
week.
We just rotate in and out.
So my initial thought was justlike I envision these guys out
with their boys partying on aFriday night.

(01:16:26):
It comes to 11 o'clock, ifyou've ever been out before on a
work night or whatever andyou're like Alright, guys, I got
to go, I got to go home, you'reright at that edge of one more
beer and you might as well stayout till 2 o'clock in the
morning at that point.
But you're right at the edgelike I got to go.
And then your friends are likepoint, but like you're right at

(01:16:46):
the edge like I gotta go, andthen they got.
It's like your friends are likecome on, man, just one more
beer.
And then your your thought is,yeah, I, I got kashusko in the
morning I'll be, I'll be skateby you.
Gotta open it at noon yeah likeno big deal.
Yeah, tomorrow's my easy.
I got the easy weekend shift ofkashusko museum, which I
thought was funny to think about.
It's also funny to think aboutbecause we did run into On our

(01:17:09):
way there.
We ran into a little mini-medwarf.
I have no, a little person,national Park Ranger.
We saw him.
We saw him.
Actually, I believe we saw himwhen we went to the.

Speaker 2 (01:17:21):
He's coming from that general area.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
He's coming from the area of the, but I think we saw
him at the when we were at theamerican revolution too, like
last, like in the in the springtoo, I feel like we had seen him
there.
But anyway, very short littleperson, and we just had to laugh
and think like wouldn't it befunny if he was at this
permanent park yeah, it is.
It's kind of like oh thesmallest park ranger might as

(01:17:45):
well be assigned to the smallestpark.
Why am I always here?
Now, think about it gettingassigned.
It'd be funny if he just keptgetting assigned there.
He's like why do you guys keepassigning him to?

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
me.
You just know so much, you'redoing so great.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
If we would have seen him, if we would have opened
those doors and he would havebeen there, it would have been
game over.
We would have had to leave themuseum.
I would have been laughing toohard.
That would have been so funny.

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
And obviously we're not saying Welcome to the
smallest national park To any ofour listeners out there who may
be or know a little person.
We're just having good fun.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
This is the Theo Vaughn disclaimer.
We're just having good fun,we're just keeping it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:34):
That would be hilarious, that would be funny,
and I would never Missedopportunity if he asked me that
it would have been even betterif he admitted it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
He's like yeah, they keep putting me here, smallest
park, rangeranger, smallestnational park, you know?

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
yeah, like yeah, he knows it.
Yeah, if you would embrace it,that would have been, it would
have been good.
That was funny.
Like then we were talking.
We're kind of like, hey, youknow talking to these people
just having a good talk, and youknow, we mentioned the podcast.
We mentioned the podcast acouple times, so hopefully
they're listening.
We did have somebody recentlydownload our whole catalog in
one day, so I'm hoping it's oneof those guys.
I don't know where they're from, but hopefully it's one of them

(01:19:09):
and hopefully they're listeningto this.
But we did say, hey, if you,I'm saying they should have a
movie about this guy, they coulddefinitely.
They just made a movie aboutNapoleon, who was a jerk, maybe
they should make a positive.
I didn't say that, but Ithought afterwards, like you
know that, like I feel like makea, make it about positive
person.
And uh, we were thinking likewho would play kachusko?

(01:19:33):
I said timothy chalamet.
They didn't have an answer.
I don't think they've beenasked that question by anybody
else.
And then yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
So we got really excited.
We were kind of spitballingwell, who could play in a movie,
tv series?

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
I think the response was and maybe rightfully so,
because we're coming up to twohours on our podcast just
talking about the guy probablyshould be like a multi-part TV
series instead of a movie.
That would be tough to do.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
Yeah, like a multi-part tv series instead of
a movie.
That would be tough to do, yeah.
But you know the one of thepark rangers, she tried to kind
of she got us, she got going fora second, she got, uh, really
excited.
She's like, oh yeah, well, shelooked at the other guy.
She's like wasn't there a thing, wasn't there a play put on in
philadelphia, um, about his lifeand times, or there, you know,
there's a play and isn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:20:24):
isn't it at independence hall and like she's
kind of talking about, likepresent day?
I saw john john's pants got alittle tighter when he heard
this.

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
I could say that much true and then she's like, you
know, I think it was in the whatwas that like the 70s, like was
that like in the 1970s?

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
and we were like oh, yeah, that's cool, yeah, cool,
like was it a bummer.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Can I watch it?
That's cool, yeah, cool.
Was it filmed?
Did somebody record it?
Can I watch it?
Or what's going on?
Yeah, that was funny.

Speaker 1 (01:20:52):
So then, as we were talking to these people, this
other couple came in while wewere there and it was an older
gentleman and a younger woman, Ibelieve, right, and they're
like oh, you guys are open.
And he's kind of like I alwayslike coming over here, it's
always fun, whatever Kind oflike, kind of talking down to
him.
I mean I got the impressionthat he was talking down to him
a little bit Because I think hewas coming from some Russian

(01:21:15):
museum, from what I gathered.
And he's like yeah, we're overhere, we like coming over here,
get a good laugh about how smallthis place is.
Kind of like that attitude orwhatever.
So they're talking and we go tothe other, we're looking a
little bit more of the museumbefore we leave.
And then I started realizingthis guy started saying like hey
, does anyone here know that hewas captured by and you know,

(01:21:35):
imprisoned by catherine thegreat?
And I'm like is this guy likecoming in here flexing about
like russia being the ones whofinally captured him or
something you know?
And I got that impression fromhim you remember that?

Speaker 2 (01:21:47):
I do remember that, of like all things you could say
about the guy, oh, he didn't.
How many people came in hereknow that what he did at
saratoga, like off the off thebat?
Yeah, it was really obscure.

Speaker 1 (01:21:57):
He came in flexing like yeah, oh, you know, he got
in prison.
It's like, wow, that's me andjohn.

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
It was weird because john can't hear battlefield.

Speaker 1 (01:22:05):
John can't john can't hear that.
Well, and I've noticed, and Ihe didn't really he was like it
was funny because as he wassaying this and I was hearing
this, john says do you think anyrussians ever come in here and
start like talking?
Smack on him like he's askingme that, and I'm like whispering
, like like the guy who's hereright now doing it, and he's
like what I'm saying?
Like what real loud?

(01:22:25):
I'm like, dude, let's get outof here.
And then when we leave, I'mlike you realize that's what
this guy was doing.
You're like, oh no, I didn'thear he didn't sound russian no,
he certainly did it, but youknow, maybe he's a spy.
It was funny.
It was funny, he could havebeen a napoleon fan.

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
He could have been a napoleon fan.
Napoleon ended up talking trashon him.
Everyone's got their haters.

Speaker 1 (01:22:47):
So that was it.
It was fun.
It was pretty eventful.
It was pretty eventful.
There was some cool stuff inthere.
Just a final thought I justwanted to leave I don't know,
john, if you have any more finalthoughts of just the museum in
general.
A couple of the favorite thingsthat I saw was the letter he
wrote some letter to.
I don't know if he was apostman or I don't know who he

(01:23:10):
was.
He was a postmaster general orsomething and it was a letter
that he hand wrote and he wasbasically just talking about how
he was jealous of these dudeshanging out with chicks and
getting married and stuff.
That's what I understood.
You could barely read it.
There was no actual printed textof what he was written, but I
spent a good 5-10 minutes tryingto decipher this from his
writing because it's in.
You can tell it was written inbroken English to begin with,

(01:23:33):
but also in this fancy cursive.
So I was trying to get thereand he was talking about like,
oh, he's getting married, goodfor him.
He was always hanging out withchicks.
I was always jealous.
I don't know this guy justseems like.
He seems like a normal guy whowas heartbroken, bounced out of
his country and that kind ofcame through in that letter.
I felt like it was just weirdDuring the American Revolution.

(01:23:54):
He's talking about him gettingmarried and how he's happy for
him.
Maybe that's just what hewanted.
He never got married, right?
I don't think so.
Yeah, he was always in lovewith that.
He was always in love with thatwoman that he could never have.

Speaker 2 (01:24:09):
I think if that's not relatable point, but we don't
get it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
I think after yeah, she helped him, but, and at that
point, like he, just seemedlike a really genuine nice guy
with that like thinking of thator whatever, and I.
There was one other thing thatI really liked, and not to be
funny, it's not funny, funny,I'm not making fun of him, and I
saw it.
We talked about the Zeltners,his host family in Switzerland,

(01:24:31):
and how Thomas Jefferson wrote aletter.
I guess that's who ultimatelynotified Thomas Jefferson Maybe
he was the word that was sentover that he had died and at one
point, when he was living withthem, he wrote a letter to the
teenage son, conrad the teen,the teenage son of the zeldner
family and he it was kind oflike a letter, just like of

(01:24:52):
advice to live by and stuff andI don't know, john, if you don't
mind, I'd like to read thestuff that he said.
And they had like a nice flipbook of like all this stuff in
there okay, go for it you wantme to read it?
sure it was just like a list ofsome things to live by.
Be always frank and loyal andalways speak the truth.

(01:25:13):
Shun selfishness and egotism.
Before speaking something oranswering, reflect well and
reason.
Never fail to make obvious yourgratitude, in all circumstances
, to a person who takes chargeof your happiness.
If a secret is entrusted to you, keep it religiously.
In all your actions you must beupright, sincere and open.

(01:25:34):
No dissimilation in any of yourtalk.
Never argue but seek truthserenely and modestly, john.
Be polite and considerate toeveryone, agreeable and obliging
in society, always humane andsuccor the poor according to

(01:25:57):
your means.
Read instructive books toembellish your mind and better
your heart.
There you go, john.
Never degrade yourself bymaking bad acquaintances, but be
always with persons full ofmorals and of good reputation.
At last, your conduct must besuch that everyone approves of
it.
That's some good advice to liveby.

(01:26:20):
I felt like that was nice ofhim to do.

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):
Yeah, a lot of just good moral principles, just salt
of the earth, humble.

Speaker 1 (01:26:30):
He seems like a.
Just to summarize what thisguy's life was like is like he
grew up middle class likesomeone else we know like
someone else we know grew upmiddle class going to school.
Family couldn't afford to dropout.
Finally made his way intomilitary school.
Graduated from that, stillcouldn't, still couldn't afford

(01:26:51):
to join the actual army when hiscountry was going to war.
Ended up being a tutor.
Fell in love with a girl.
Can't marry her.
What do you do?
Join the army.
The American army.
Comes to America, helps out.
He's the engineer.
Everyone's poo-pooing himsaying you don't know what
you're doing, keeps at it, workshis way up to be a respected

(01:27:17):
guy.
Finally leaves, gets to hishome country, fights first
country, loses comes back to,gets arrested, released, comes
back to Philadelphia.
Then gets basically booted outof America, which he helped,
freaking, get their independenceand he was a citizen and he

(01:27:38):
became by the alien and seditionacts.
He got basically forced backout of there.
Goes back to poland or goesback to europe.
Poland doesn't exist anymore,just a heartbroken guy, but
still lived his life.

Speaker 2 (01:27:50):
he still has, yeah, but he still has one more candle
.
He thinks oh, maybe there's onemore last shot with Napoleon,
maybe there's one more hope.
Yeah, no, just not.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
Never got married even though he seemed like a
nice guy, very relatable Soul ofthe Earth type guy and from
what I understand a lot ofpeople said he wasn't very
proper.
He was considered Again.
Even when he would go to placesreally seems like a guy who
would wear a baseball hat to hisfriend's wedding.

Speaker 2 (01:28:24):
Along with his Society of Cincinnati.
Badge Right.

Speaker 1 (01:28:28):
I think he would never know if he was wealthy.
I feel like he was a verymodest person and that was just
cool.
I don't think he ever really Iget the opinion that he did all
this stuff in the backgroundwith Saratoga and all this stuff
, but never really looked forpraise or admiration, and that's
probably why he never made hisway into the history books in

(01:28:50):
America.
I think if this guy was anAmerican he would definitely be
way more famous than he is.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
If he was American, yeah, and had an American
sounding name, I think so, yeah,like I think, for I feel like
certain people especially callit, maybe on the left, I don't
know, it's getting a politicaldistinction, but all the things
he stood for, I think they seempretty genuine.
I don things he stood for.
I think they seem prettygenuine.
I don't think he had an again.
That's again an ulterior motiveto this thing.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
I think he just genuinely no, he never got
anything for any of what he did.

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
Yeah well, he never got anything surfs and fought
with other peasants and likenever, but he never, probably
never got.

Speaker 1 (01:29:26):
He never got paid by america for doing that.
He never got his country back.
He never, never, really.
You know, he never was reallyable to enjoy the fruits of his
labor, as one could say to someend.
I don't know how the end of hislife was, but at the end of his
life.

Speaker 2 (01:29:43):
Maybe that's a good quick segue.
What was?

Speaker 1 (01:29:45):
your favorite part of the museum.

Speaker 2 (01:29:49):
I liked the the short .
There was a video on his life.
I thought that was interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:29:55):
You liked that that wasn't about his life.
I actually have that listed asbeing super lame.

Speaker 2 (01:30:01):
Well, we're different .

Speaker 1 (01:30:02):
It was four minutes and you even said so.
It was four minutes long and itwas only about the American
Revolution.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
I thought, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:30:12):
That was the worst part of the museum.

Speaker 2 (01:30:14):
honestly Didn't need to be there Of what I guess.
Maybe I like the room more thanthe painting.
There was full-size, like youknow, three or six feet high by
six feet by four feet wide.
Paintings of him, of all oflike his well known portraits,

(01:30:34):
not the one with him on his head, his bandaged head, those are
cool.
There's a full-size, life-sizebusk of his head, like a statue
of his head.
Um, I thought, yeah, seeing theroom was cool.
You know, it was just kind oflike a room, um.
But no, I thought, yeah, someof his other personal effects.
I thought I thought the stampswere cool not his personal

(01:30:56):
effects, but other things thatthe stamps were cool.
There was one that commemoratedthe 150th anniversary of him
becoming an american citizen,from 1933.
That was neat.
There was a, uh, what was awine decanter?
No, what was it whiskeydecanter?
No, what was it Whiskeydecanter?
A whiskey decanter?
Of him on a horse, like allcolored, all painted and stuff,

(01:31:22):
that was neat.
Yeah, his face was on a bunchof current money, and Polish
money primarily yeah.
But I think also just talking topeople that know about him too,
that was cool, I think, talkingto the park rangers, both in
saratoga and at the museum, likethey knew about him and I'm not
the only one.
I had a really fun time.
I'm really glad we got downthere.

(01:31:42):
Uh, it was, yeah, it was on mybucket list for a while, ever
since I read the book on him.
But, um, yeah, although maybehe he was, he never found love,
you know, he never found.
He never got his homeland back,I mean, certainly after the
fact he was commemorated and uh,you know all over the world.

(01:32:07):
And I mean, yeah, it's one ofthose things, if you ever go to
like a polish american hall, youknow one of these like places
you can go out and eat and stuffor some cultural history.
His picture is probably allover the place, him and Casimir
Pulaski, another Polish foundingfather, american founding
father they love the guy.

Speaker 1 (01:32:29):
It was a good day.
The rest of the day we had sometime.
Somebody didn't check the trainschedule to know exactly what
time the trains left, so we hadsome time to kill before we got.
We caught a train.
So like hey, what do we want todo?
And um, I thought like hey, whydon't we go see ben franklin's
grave?
Figured we were close by, itwas something quick, thought
it'd be fun to do.
So it's a couple blocks walk,but like kind of in the same

(01:32:50):
direction that we were going toBen Franklin grave, we show up
there and it turns out it's $5to get in, which is crazy, but I
made John walk all the waythere, so I paid for us to get
in there.

Speaker 2 (01:33:04):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:33:04):
And there is nothing special really with that except
Ben Franklin's grave, justsitting there.
And then I realized that therewas a bunch of people standing
outside taking pictures next tothe great outside for free,
because the gate, the, the gateright next to ben franklin's
like grave is like open, it'slike a, it's like a, you know,
you can see inside.
So people were just like posingwith pictures and throwing

(01:33:27):
pennies on it, which I guessmaybe is a thing I don't know.
I didn't do that because wejust paid five dollars to get in
and I'm thinking to myself youguys are cheap, come in and take
a look at it.
So that kind of ticked me off alittle bit.
We walked around.
It was a normal graveyard forthe Christ Church, I think is
what it's called in Philadelphia, which is still a church.
I actually worked in there atone point and saw the bell tower

(01:33:50):
, which it was really cool beingin there.
But the cemetery is not at thechurch and you walk around and
there's really no informationfor you.
You pay $5 for basicallynothing.
You walk through.
There's just a bunch of oldgravestones.
There were two gravestones thatthe people had died in the
2000s.
That was weird.

(01:34:11):
I don't know how much it costfor you to do that, which led me
to think like hey, do you thinkif we were related to them
you'd still have to pay to getin to see them?
Or could you get in for free?

Speaker 2 (01:34:21):
I'm sure you get like a pass or a badge maybe flash
and say hey, I got my relativeslike recently deceased relatives
barrier somehow and they'd belike even if they weren't
recently deceased, you should beable to go there for free.
It'd be ridiculous yeah, I meanif you could prove it that
they're there I'm sure familyand I'm sure family get passes.

Speaker 1 (01:34:43):
There were some there were some pretty cool like
grave sites and stuff and cripsand whatever, and I think I did
give you an idea of what Iwanted.
When I died, one of the peopleI think one of the people had
something pretty cool before Iremember correctly.

Speaker 2 (01:34:56):
I was like, hey, that's what I want for my
graveyard I forgot immediatelyafter well, you have to go back
I do know I will say one morepsa to our fans out there again,
common courtesy will get you along way in this world.
As matt and I were kind ofmaking our way out, we did come
past.
We did walk by the gravestoneof another founding father, dr

(01:35:19):
benjamin rush, you know, earlydoctor during the american
revolution in the in the early,in the early period.
I'm about to take a picture andas I do that, believe it or not
, a whole tour group comes intothe cemetery and they're being
led by a tour guide.

Speaker 1 (01:35:35):
They probably don't have to pay $5.

Speaker 2 (01:35:38):
I don't know how much they paid to get in there.
I'm literally standing in frontof Mr Rush's gravestone and the
leader of the tour, the tourguide, doesn't say anything.
He can kind of clearly tell I'mtrying to take a picture, I'm
here, but obviously that's a bigthing in this cemetery.

(01:35:59):
That was the next stop in histour in this cemetery, so it's
like he's got 10 people in towbut I'm already in front of it.
I got my picture and he justkind of moves right in and
stands right next to it anddoesn't acknowledge that Matt
and I are already there, likewe're trying to enjoy our couple

(01:36:20):
seconds with the man in hisdefense and this guy I agree,
and so we got pushed out ofthere and then we had to like
kind of make our way through thecrowd.

Speaker 1 (01:36:28):
In their defense we were walking counterclockwise
around the cemetery, so thenthey were walking clockwise,
which I think is probably morethe general rule of thumb, so we
were kind of going againsttraffic there.
So I mean I get.

Speaker 2 (01:36:41):
I'm with you.
But it's a great.
It's a cemetery, no one, not alot of traffic, a lot of
movement.
You could have waited.
There's more there's more.

Speaker 1 (01:36:50):
There's more traffic outside of it for the free shots
of the picture than inside ofit.
Those just for the sake of likethere's more there's more.

Speaker 2 (01:36:55):
There's more traffic outside of it for the free shots
of the picture than inside ofit.
Those just for the sake of like.
There's other weirdos thatwould pay five dollars to come
in here.
Okay, I'll let them.

Speaker 1 (01:36:59):
Maybe they'll get their money's worth if they take
this, and I, when I said that,john, is the reason that it's
five dollars is to keep theriffraff out of there, I think
is including us yes, probablyshould have raised the price a
little more to keep us out.
And they were charging a dollarfor water on top of everything.
So they get and they had noinformation Like you pay this $5
and you get nothing for it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:20):
No map.

Speaker 1 (01:37:21):
No brochure, nothing it's like.
Okay, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:37:25):
Points of interest, who were like the five founding
fathers?
I should stop by.

Speaker 1 (01:37:29):
Although it does, the money goes to the church, so
whatever, it's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:37:34):
Maintaining the cemetery and all that stuff,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:36):
It's a nice cemetery.
It's small but it's nice.
I wouldn't mind getting buriedthere.
Hint, hint.

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):
I'll work my magic.
I'll see what I can do for you.

Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
So that's pretty much it.
So then we walk, then we triedto go to the freaking Thomas
Jefferson house where he wetalked about it, I believe, when
we went to the americanrevolution, where it was the
thomas the house that thomasjefferson um wrote the
declaration of independence, butit was actually just a rebuilt
house, so it's not reallyauthentic like the kosciuszko
museum is authentic.

(01:38:06):
But we went, went there.
John looked up on his phonethat it was open from 5 a until
midnight or something.
Some crazy hours right.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
Yeah, on Mondays.
It's just a mistype in Google.

Speaker 1 (01:38:20):
So we're trying to kill the time and we get there
and it's closed and I never evenlooked to see what the actual
hours were, but so we wound upin there.
Then we're in the IndependenceNational Park System area.
We're just minding minor ownbusiness, walking through we see
all the chuchas waiting in lineto go see the stupid liberty
bell.
I mean, the line was crazy longand it was raining out.

(01:38:40):
They were waiting in line andthere's like some construction
or whatever, not to get toodetailed so we make our way
around.
Then we start walking.
There's these two guys standinguh against the wall in front of
the building that the libertybell's in, and they're like, hey
, excuse me, you're like.
We're like yeah.
He's like where's, uh, where'sthe liberty bell?
I'm like, um, look, yeah.
When they say that, I'm likeit's right there.

(01:39:02):
We were, as they asked thatquestion.
We were looking, yeah, at theliberty because there's glass
like there's.

Speaker 2 (01:39:07):
There's a glass panel that you can see into it.
It's kind of fog, it's kind ofdirty and fog, but you could
still clearly see there's aLiberty Bell behind that and
he's looking at us.
He's facing Independence Hall,we're looking at the Liberty
Bell.

Speaker 1 (01:39:19):
They were standing right in front.

Speaker 2 (01:39:22):
That was great.
And then I'm like, yeah, it'sthere.

Speaker 1 (01:39:28):
Matt's like hey, you probably want to get in line.
It's a long line.
And Because why I say thatthere was construction, there
was a long line.
I'm like, if you want I think Isaid it's right there, but I
guess if you want to go in tolook at it, you have to wait in
line.
And to do that you got to goaround here and whatever, get to
the other side of thisconstruction fence.
And the guy looked at me likehe's like what it's that way.

Speaker 2 (01:39:53):
He's like where?
Because if someone says it'sright there and they point a
finger, my first instinct is tocrack my head 180 degrees.

Speaker 1 (01:40:00):
I would have made something like I'm such a
goofball.

Speaker 2 (01:40:04):
There.
It is Pretty hard to miss that.

Speaker 1 (01:40:07):
Nothing there.
It's like okay, just like, butthat's tourists, I don't know.
I think we get you forget thatwe have some type of
Philadelphia accent to thesepeople who aren't from there, so
maybe as we talk it comesacross as like really like it's
right over there, you idiot.

Speaker 2 (01:40:27):
Oh yeah, you know, and he just sees it in the
movies.

Speaker 1 (01:40:30):
He's like these Philadelphians they talk this
way and they're never super onpoint I mean similar, like when
we're in the adirondacks and youthought I was yelling at that
guy looking for the code for thebathroom.
Maybe that's how he felt withme.

Speaker 2 (01:40:42):
So it's a story for another day, fans so then yeah,
we eventually got back tojefferson station.

Speaker 1 (01:40:51):
Should be renamed kachuska, jefferson, kachuska
station maybe there you go andthen, um, yeah, we got on the
train and then there were some,just some the thing.
Just to get back to the trains,the train station, what I've
been trying to say to john islike this is like the higher one
for one.
I realize there's the otherthing on top of it being a
longer train ride.

(01:41:11):
What I learned as we werebuying tickets is it's also in a
different zone, so it'sactually even more expensive to
ride the train.
So not only does it take longer, not only do you have to walk
15 minutes to get to the trainstation, and not only is it a
longer train ride, but it alsocosts more.

Speaker 2 (01:41:32):
It's a trifecta.

Speaker 1 (01:41:33):
The thing that I don't like about it is you're
going through the main line andso you get all these snooty
people there.
To get to the point of it'smore expensive, it's a longer
train ride.
You're dealing with a bunch ofrich, snobby chooches.
Just take the train fromNorristown.
More down to earth, Cachusco100% Cachusco would 100% not

(01:41:54):
take the Paoli line and if youwant to live the way that he did
, talking to Connor Zeltner,whatever take the Norristown
line when you're going into thecity.
That's all I got to say.
Good advice, Final.
I really kind of want to get.
I guess we kind of talked toolong and I don't want to.
Maybe the next episode we canget into this.

(01:42:17):
We got some fan mail, someresponse to our my solo episode.
We got some input, but I don'twant to do them the disservice
of talking about it at the endof a long podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:42:32):
So maybe the next episode will open.

Speaker 1 (01:42:34):
I really hope that my nephew freaking tells his
teacher well, why are welistening about the freaking ice
?
Why are we learning about theice age?
Let's learn about this guy,cachusco.

Speaker 2 (01:42:46):
Or even if they're talking a bit to the American
Revolution and they want to talkabout I don't know who's a bozo
they always talk about.
They were just like, that guywasn't that important, he was
good for a while until he wasn't.
He sold Cachusco's secrets.
He's the one I mean.
He sold the secrets to WestPoint, sold the plans to West
Point to the British.

Speaker 1 (01:43:07):
Well, he was in charge of West Point.

Speaker 2 (01:43:10):
Basically sold Cachusco up the river, literally
.

Speaker 1 (01:43:14):
All right, fans.
Well, I think that's all thatwe have for you.
I hope you enjoyed the talk ofthe finally we got to the museum
and I hope maybe you learned alittle bit about the man who I
still will say final thoughts.
I think I said this to John Idon't think he would be in the
framework of what we said offounding fathers and how

(01:43:38):
everything else was going on.
I don't think.
I think he had a huge, played ahuge role in the United States
gaining independence, which isan admirable thing, and he was a
pretty cool guy.
But as far as a high rank of afounding father, he kind of left
when the country startedgetting formed.
So I don't see it.

(01:43:59):
Yeah, I can agree to that.
We'll see on the next one.
Um, you know, as always, shootus a text.
Let us know your thoughts onkushusko.

Speaker 2 (01:44:10):
Um, get in there before you got a couple more
weeks before they close for theseason you'll be getting this
this week, so you'll probablyhave about 10 days or so oh, I
guess two days within that 10days to get there check it out
make a whole day of it send us atext.

Speaker 1 (01:44:27):
Hit us up on twitter at nailing history or send us an
email at nailing history pod atgmailcom.
Got anything else to add, john?
I just want to say, guys, I'mreally excited to have been back
Nailing History.
Or send us an email atnailinghistorypod at gmailcom.
Got anything else to add?

Speaker 2 (01:44:35):
John.
I just want to say guys, I'mreally excited to have been back
after being on hiatus.
Matt, I want to thank you againfor steering the ship solo last
week.
I'm really excited to be backon it and looking forward to
doing more episodes and growingthe base.

Speaker 1 (01:44:54):
All right, got anything else to leave them with
.
Stay curious and we say bye-bye.

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