129 Unraveling Pardons Past and Present

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What happens when global politics, family ties, and the complex world of presidential pardons collide? Join us as we unpack the shocking overthrow of the Assad regime in Syria and the assassination of the UnitedHealthcare CEO, events that have left the world buzzing with mixed reactions. Our journey isn't just about serious headlines—we also share our amusing adventure of getting verified on X (formerly Twitter) and losing a horde of bot followers along the way. The episode takes a twist into the volatile world of cryptocurrency, spotlighting the intriguing tale of internet personality Haley Welch and her meme coin escapades.

The controversy surrounding President Joe Biden's pardon of his son, Hunter Biden, takes center stage as we explore the legal, ethical, and political ramifications of such a decision. This move, covering federal crimes from 2014 to the present, including gun-related offenses and tax evasion, challenges the moral high ground of the Democrats, especially with impending elections. Throughout the discussion, we reflect on historical presidential pardons, offering a lens through which to view the complexities and familial pressures involved in such powerful acts of clemency.

Travel through history as we examine the origins and evolution of the presidential pardon, from the Whiskey Rebellion to Jimmy Carter's pardon of Vietnam War draft dodgers. We debate the most controversial pardons in U.S. history, questioning the motivations behind clemency for figures like Jimmy Hoffa and Patty Hearst. Ending on a lighter note, we recount Joe Exotic's failed pardon attempt, highlighting the bizarre yet captivating narratives that make presidential pardons a perpetual topic of fascination and debate.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of
Nailing History.
I'm your host, John, here withmy co-host, Matt Matt, how are
you today?

Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm good Glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
We're stoked.
Thank you so much.
How's your week?
How's it been?
How are you hanging in there?
Good, that's good.
That's good to hear.
Yeah, it's good.
That's good to hear.
Yeah, it's good.
Uh, it's.
It's been on a minute since wewere here, but, uh, I feel like

(00:52):
we got a good thing going.
I think the news cycle's reallygiving us some some good fire
to work with and, uh, I thinkwe're really got a good one for
you guys this week.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Any certain current events tickle your fancy at all
over the last week.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Let's see Nationally what else has even really
happened.
I guess Syria is a big problemagain.
I was seeing that in theheadlines.
I thought that was like so 2016, and I guess now it's the 2024

(01:33):
and like, I guess the assadregime has been overthrown
blasted.
Yeah, it seemed like it allhappened very quickly.
I just read headlines, I readnothing about it.
That sounds pretty dicey.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
The CEO from the UnitedHealthcare got
assassinated.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
That's probably a big one a little closer to home.
People are really up in armsabout that one.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
It seems like more people are like oh good for them
for killing him.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
I read a few YouTube comments on a video going over
it, and that was mostly what thecomments were.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
That's pretty annoying.
That annoys me.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
About how people are.
Like you can get shot.
It serves you right for denyingcoverage or whatever they were
saying.
Like he was doing it yeah sure,yep, I mean, they're in the
business of making money.
It's just, it's what it is.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Some of our fans may have noticed a little extra
addition to our ex profile Alittle colorful checkmark next
to our name.
Did you notice that, John?

Speaker 1 (02:50):
I did not.
Oh, did we get a little bluecheck, we're verified.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
We are verified, we're verified and in that
process, unfortunately, we hadto go through I don't understand
it completely.
We had to go through amulti-day vetting process on the
web.
I signed up for it.
I got duped into it because Xwas running a Black Friday

(03:20):
special 40% off of a yearlysubscription.
So I'm not not, it's not superexpensive, but I don't really
know exactly what I paid.
But I got duped into itsomewhat.
I'm like, okay, I'll do it, sohoping we'd get, maybe get some
more.
You know legitimacy and when wecomment on other videos, you

(03:40):
know people are like, oh, theyhave a blue check mark.
Maybe they know what they'retalking about.
But we ended up as mean kind ofa little bit about a little,
yeah, a little little, thatlittle you.
You get a little bit moreaccess to certain things.
You can tweet longer posts, soyou're not.
So you're not as held to thewhatever, however many

(04:01):
characters it was we don'treally post anymore.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
You X posts.
I think Elon Musk is reallyparticular about knowing people
are still calling it Twitter,but through this vetting period
we ended up losing about $140.
I'm shocked we had that many.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, we didn't really.
Yeah, I guess what during theprocess in order to be verified,
they want to make sure that youdidn't like I'm I'm projecting
here.
I didn't look into it because Idon't necessarily care, but I
assume like part of theverification process for certain
accounts, they want to makesure that you didn't just pay
for 50,000 bots so that whenpeople look at your profile, you

(04:51):
definitely seem more legit ifsomebody says, oh, this guy's
got 50,000 followers.
So I think by trying to get theblue checkmark, twitter went
through our I don't know howthey even did it, but they went
through our.
I don't know how they even didit, but they went through our
followers and, yeah, we lostabout.
We lost pretty much all of them.
So we're back, we're down to,we're down to 10 or 11, but they

(05:14):
were all bots so they weren'treal, but it looked legitimate.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
But we're bearing all now.
Now we're being honest with ourfans and for now I didn't bring
it up with you.
When we were last speaking withone another, apparently a
certain Hak'tu girl got in somehot water.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, another one of our followees, not a follower.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
What happened?
She just got wrapped up in thewhole crypto, is that?

Speaker 2 (05:42):
So I don't know exactly what happened with her
name.
Is hayley welch.
We'll call her that um of uhmeme fame.
Um, yeah, I don't know whatexactly.
I don't really understand thewhole crypto game, but it's
definitely not something thatI'd particularly want to get
involved with, as I don't reallyknow.
I don't think she is too wellversed in it.

(06:05):
Um, there's these things.
From what I understand, there'sthese things called a meme coin
.
So we have, you have some Idon't know if there's I guess
there's levels of legitimate umcryptocurrency.
So you got like bitcoin andethereum and and like those are.
Those are kind of the most,those are the original ones,

(06:25):
like there's a couple more onthat level, but then you get
down to another level where thenyou have like the doge and
other ones that were kind ofcame.
I don't know, they came outafter the fact and then you get
down to another level where it'slike just people making, like
creating coins of themselves andjust trying to like put them

(06:45):
into the market.
I don't know, I don'tunderstand it and, uh, I don't
know if she necessarily did my.
So what they're saying is shereleased this coin on a certain
day and as soon as it went up tolike a crazy amount, like a
crazy high value, everybody whowas either part of the people

(07:06):
who created the coin or herherself like sold it immediately
.
They call it pulling the rug,pulled the rug out from under
everybody, and then, when theysold that, everybody else lost a
ton of their investment.
I don't know sort of situationyeah, I mean, it's pretty much
like it and uh, you know, Idon't even know if they could
really be held account.
I don't like a pump and dumpsort of situation.

(07:26):
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty muchand I don't even know if they
could really be held account.
I don't know how.
The SEC doesn't Probablydoesn't.
I don't even know if theyregulate that.
So I don't know how.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
But my personal opinion.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
I was talking to somebody this weekend about it
and I was just jokingly sayinglike hey, did you invest in that
?
Or hey, what's going on withthat?
And they were asking about itand I'm like it's probably the
same conversation.
I'm like I don't understand it.
I obviously didn't buy it.
I don't even know how to buythat stuff.
I do own some crypto that Ibought through one of those Like

(07:56):
an app, just so that I can try.
I don't have a lot, but I wastalking to this person and I was
saying I actually feel bad forher because I think what and I
don't know, I don't know thesituation.
Obviously, I don't know herpersonally, even though we do
follow her on X, but it justseems like this cryptocurrency

(08:21):
online community is kind ofrough.
It seems like and they're all,they're all out to like out each
other and all this likenonsense.
It's like it's like if wallstreet was on reddit or
something.
We're like there's a bunch ofbullying and a lot of like
nonsense going on, a lot ofscheming going on.
That's just what I get from itand I just feel like you get
somebody like her, who was likefamous, like very big in the

(08:46):
like pop culture world right nowup and coming.
She's young, um, I don't know,I was famous, I don't know how.
I don't know how smart she Imean she had got shot, dude.
No, she was famous and trump gotshot no, she had the fifth most
listened to podcast in theworld when, like up until like

(09:07):
last week, she has, like she'sstill like, fairly like
prominent and like yeah,obviously you don't keep up with
anything, so, yeah, so she wasactually like kind of actually
doing somewhat of a good job oflike stretching this 15 minutes
of fame, and then she did this,and I just feel like somebody in
the crypto world is like oh, wecan make a quick buck off of

(09:30):
this girl.
We'll have her do this, takeadvantage of all of her fans,
and she'll be the one to takeall the heat, and they probably
went away with a couple milliondollars.
She might have made a couplemillion dollars, not knowing
exactly.
It could have been completelyinnocent to her, like I didn't
you know, she didn't know, eventhough she might have made out,
but they took advantage, I feel.
I just feel like something likethat happened.

(09:51):
I don't know for sure because,like, I don't think why would
she at this point?
Like I don't know how muchmoney she was making off the
podcast or whatever, but she wasdefinitely trending towards
being able to make somewhat of aliving doing nonsense.
She's probably getting 10 000listeners an episode, I'm sure.
So, um, I don't know why youwould try to scam people like

(10:14):
now if you already were.
It just doesn't really add up.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
So I feel a little bad, put her up to it, and she
just got taken advantage of bysomebody who's like oh yeah,
here's a way like you're yeah,and then she hasn't tweeted
since now yes, I I do feel forher honestly, but if she got
away with a couple milliondollars, that's not that bad
either, so can't feel too badfor her can't?

(10:41):
you gotta keep people you cantrust around you and just you
know, understand how you got towhere you got, like you, she
said a funny phrase once thatwas caught on air.
You just got to realize, likeI'm just taking this thing and
running with it, but you knowthere's going to be some
shysters out there trying to geta piece of that, you know.

(11:02):
So he's gonna be careful yeah,I mean hey, who are we to say
it's true, it's true, but anywayuh, yeah yeah thanks for asking
me about my expertise on that.
I'll say you're welcome, but Iguess maybe we should get right

(11:25):
into it.
Huh sure, the other big story,big scoop yeah, we're really
avoiding the obvious at thefront, front and center.
The biggest news story of thepast week I think we can all
agree in the US has been thepardoning of a Mr Hunter Biden

(11:51):
by his father, president JosephRobinette Biden, I was blown
away.
You were blown away.
What were your initial thoughts?

Speaker 2 (12:08):
I was not surprised, didn't really bother me that
much.
It's funny.
My dad said something to me onwhat, so this came out monday or
tuesday, was it?
Well, actually, you know, wasit sunday?
Was it over the weekend sunday?
Yeah, last sunday I saw my dadon wednesday and he said
something to me.
He's like what do you thinkabout this?
I'm like duh.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Typical.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
That's all I got to say.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
He lied, he said he wouldn't do it.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
I mean, I think that's the big part.
I think that's what a lot ofpeople are upset about both
sides.
I think that's where theDemocrats are really off-put
about.
It is that he did say that hewasn't going to do it.
Well, say that he wasn't goingto do it well, and I think that
that's why, in politics, Ialways say you never be 100 in
on one thing at all in politics,because if you say one thing
and then something changes orsomething happens and you have

(12:55):
to go back and everyone's justgoing to like come out of the
world, be like oh, you didn'tsay it.
Well, you said you weren'tgoing to do it.
If he would have just left itat like, I might do it, I don't
know.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
But do you think they're upset from a principled
standpoint or because now, inlight of the new president
that's coming into office,they're not going to have a
moral high ground to stand on asmuch of like?
They're not going to be able toplay the oh, like you know,
you're only supposed to bepardoning people for the safety
of the democracy or whatever allthat narrative, and then Trump

(13:27):
can just be like, well, your guyjust pardoned his son.
I think they're probably moreupset about it that they won't
be able to have as much of a legto stand on when they know
what's definitely coming downthe pipeline.
But yeah, that was a reallythat was a big one and uh, you

(13:48):
know much like the tariff pardonfor let's go.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
What did he get pardoned for?
What are the details?

Speaker 1 (13:56):
so he's got.
He got a blanket 10-year pardon.
So retroactive retroactive from2014 up until Sunday of last
week.
If he committed any federalcrime, it was deemed pardoned,
so there's a few thingslingering lingering about.

(14:19):
As some of our fans may know, afew years ago he had a little
run in with a laptop anddropping that off at a computer
shop in Delaware.
Some hot water, who drops their?

Speaker 2 (14:33):
computer off at a computer shop anymore, just get
a new one.
You know what I mean that's themost ridiculous part about that
whole freaking thing is likeman, what a job that would be.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Huh, my computer is so backed up, I gotta take it to
this guy in like a strip mallto clean it up.
Just divorced my wife.
I've got a raging crackaddiction.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
I'm just going to take my computer in.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Well, he didn't then.
But I don't know if we knowthat.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
The most unvetted place.
You have to have IT peopleavailable to you, at your
fingertips, to be able to fixyour computer.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
if you're Hunter Biden, he was a lobbyist for a
number of years.
He had connection, foreignconnections and partners.
Yeah, I'm shocked that hecouldn't just call somebody and
be like I need a guy who canlike.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Just I'm honestly wondering if, like his computer
was so bad that he couldn't getit turned on.
And then he was worried thathis uh browser history would
have been seen by somebody inthe government.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, that's every man's fear.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Every 14-year-old boy knows that one, and he didn't
want to Because if he would havetaken it somewhere where they
could have gotten his computerup and running, they would have
been able to see his internethistory, his browser history.
So I'm thinking he's like, letme just take it somewhere else.
If they see my browser history,whatever I guess.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
I wonder if the first thing people close to him would
have been like well, you'reusing DuckDuckGo, right?
And he's like nah dude,Internet Explorer, what's
DuckDuckGo?
It supposedly doesn't save anyof your history.
Oh, it's supposed to be likethis safe browser.
That's like not incognito modelike you would have on chrome,

(16:28):
it's supposed to just be like a.
It doesn't save your history.
Internet export doesn't existanymore either.
It's edge now, yeah well, I'mvery edgy, so so yeah, he had
the laptop.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Isn't specifically what he got pardoned for.
So you're just being aconspiracy theorist?
No, the laptop was.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Well, he had foreign connections in Ukraine 10 years
ago, in 2014, when his fatherwas still the vice president and
kind of responsible for Ukrainematters.
Some of our fans might rememberthere was a coup in ukraine, a
color revolution in 2014, wherethe government was, uh, austria,
you know, was was taken overand put in with a more western

(17:12):
friendly government.
Um, but yeah, at the time,hunter had some connections and
had made some money from thoseconnections and investments that
he had over there.
But then from basically 2015onward, I think it's kind of
unfortunately.
I mean, it's just sad he don'twant to see this happen to
anybody, but life kind of took adownward spiral.

(17:34):
He got, you know, he developedan addiction to crack and
alcohol, entered depression, hisbrother died, bo biden died um,
you know, a lot happened.
But uh, yeah, the one thingthat got him in hot water
happened on october 12th 2018,where he bought a 38 caliber
handgun at starquest shootersand survival supply in

(17:56):
wilmington, delaware, uh, and hehas he asserted on a US
government form that he was notusing drugs, which no one ever
does that, I'm sure of it.
It's basically been proven.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
I guess it hasn't been proven, but he almost
certainly was, and I think thisis really what I think the
question isn't even I own afirearm or two, and so I filled
this form out many times, or two, and um, that is a question.
It says, I think the and Idon't know.
We could probably pull it up,but I think the question is like

(18:33):
are you or have you ever usedany addictive substances?
I think it's something likethat.
So you could argue I guesshunter could have argued that
yeah, I smoked crack, but it'snot addicted.
He could have, he could have.
That might have been his, uh,his, defense that we're
unfortunately not going to beable to hear because of this.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Pardon, yeah, um, oh yeah, but I wasn't.
I was cool that day.
I wasn't on it the day I filledout the form oh, that's another
one that they could have done.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah, yeah, but not only, but you're missing there.
There was.
There was two things that hespecific things that he had been
charged with that he gotpardoned for was the gun
application but, also.
Yeah, he also like evadedmillions and millions of taxes
over like the period of like2015 to 2019 or something like
that.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah from his foreign dealings in ukraine and china.
He was a part owner in achinese business, didn't declare
it um, and apparently, as ofjust like a few weeks, just back
in september of this year hehad he had agreed to, he pleaded
guilty to nine federal taxcharges in LA after telling his

(19:48):
legal team that he refused tosubject his family to more
anguish and humiliation whichthey've been experiencing for a
number of years.
And he was kind of just goingin the towel.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
I'm just going to get pardoned anyway.
So, yeah, I plead guilty.
I'm sure that's you don't thinkhe knew he was going to get
pardoned.
I'm just going to get pardonedanyway.
So, yeah, I plead guilty.
I'm sure that's you don't thinkhe knew he was going to get
pardoned when he pled guilty?

Speaker 1 (20:08):
well, it was before the election.
I think if biden, I think ifmaybe harris won that's a good
point he wouldn't feel as likeneeding to.
I don't know what he would havesaid.
I mean, biden said he wasn'tgoing to do it.
Trump wins the election.
I think everyone knows.
I mean trump's not hidinganything about.
Yeah, I'm going to get thepeople I want into the justice

(20:29):
department.
I want a clean house.
I want my people doing thethings I want them to do.
So I think, yeah, democrats arepretty worried about what he's
gonna, what he's gonna pull up,pull from his sleeve, and uh,
yeah, I guess they just wantthis you know all this hunter
stuff to kind of go to bedbefore biden leaves the white
house.
But uh, yeah, see biden, whatthe president was on record as

(20:52):
saying he would not pardon hisson I don't have the exact date
in front of me on when he saidhe, when he said that.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
But uh, yeah, like we said a little earlier, that's
kind of really what's gettingpeople upset about this whole
thing according to the, the partin the letter that Joe Biden
wrote, he said that the reasonthat he didn't pay the taxes is
because he was addicted to crack, and he forgot.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Again.
Also, someone of his influencewas shocked.
He doesn't have an accountanton retainer.
Hey or his father wouldn'tinsist that he would should have
an accountant.
But you know, we all know thestate of the president currently
sometimes, sometimes, you justhave to live and let live yeah.

(21:39):
So you know, we kind of wantedto look in a little more the
history of pardons and just kindof get down to how did it come
to this?
How did it come to a sittingpresident pardoning their son
for tax evasion and gun chargesand other craziness?
How did we get here?
We could probably both agreeand I think the facts that we're

(22:12):
going to get into would back itup that the Founding Fathers,
when they included this power inthe Constitution, did not think
it would be used for this.
It's probably not somethingthey had in mind, weren't the
ones who won out and and theysaw maybe something writing on
the wall it could be used, youknow for, for one's own benefit.
But um, yeah, we'll get to that.
So, matt any idea where pardonstarted from, how it ended up in

(22:40):
the constitution in the firstplace?

Speaker 2 (22:44):
no, no idea, no idea john well I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
So it actually.
It actually harkens back to thebritish, believe it or not.
Yeah, why me, we?
We, we gained our independencefrom them, but we couldn't, you,
but we didn't sever ourpolitical past to them entirely.
So pardon power has a Britishorigin, english origin really,

(23:15):
and it goes back to what'scalled the Royal Prerogative of
Mercy, which was basically itallowed for kings and monarchs
to issue acts of clemency, andthe first dated one was by King
Ene of Wessex in the 7th centuryAD.
And as the centuries moved on,in England and other European

(23:38):
countries as well, you starteddeveloping this idea of the
divine right of kings, whereasyou know, effectively, kings and
monarchs were therepresentatives of god on earth.
So you know, they can kind ofsay and do what they, what they
pleased, and so they maintaineda royal prerogative to pardon
convicted persons, and usuallywhat they would do with that
power is they would eitherwithdraw or give alternative

(24:00):
withdrawal or give alternativesto death sentences to those
convicted, some alternatives, amain one being penal
transportation, at least in the18th century into the 19th
century, and then, as you kindof went on into the 1600s, 1700s
, the kings started using thesepardons more for political

(24:23):
reasons, including the pardoningof pirates, and so that's kind
of where the pardoning historystarted.
So our founding fathers didn'tjust kind of pull it out of a
hat saying, well, the executivegovernment or president should
have an ability to pardonwhoever they want, for whatever

(24:43):
reason.
Uh, just because that's a powerthey should have, they thought
it actually would have served aa valid purpose and uh, yeah,
that's kind of.
That's kind of how we ended upwith it even becoming a thing
discussed when the constitutionwas being ratified.
It's locked in in article 2section, section 2, clause 1 of

(25:05):
the US Constitution, whichstates the president shall have
power to grant reprieves andpardons for offenses against the
United States, except in casesof impeachment.
And the argument at the time waswell, why would you give the
president this power?
Why doesn't Congress have thispower?
I mean, they're closer to thepeople, they are more reflective

(25:26):
of the population.
The argument was that it wasmeant to be by keeping it in the
executive branch.
It could be a check on thejudicial branch, basically the
justice and the law basically,and judges who may also abuse
their powers.
So if they mistry somebody,there's laws on the books.

(25:47):
Let's say, someone's thenbrought and hauled into court.
A judge passes an unfavorableruling or one that could be
deemed a tyrannical ruling, thepresident could have the ability
to pardon that person if it'sdeemed in the benefit of the
country as a whole.
So one of the biggest proponentsof including the pardon power

(26:09):
in the Constitution was noneother than my king of spades, if
I recall Alexander Hamilton.
He wrote in the FederalistPapers number 74,.
He said that the president, itcan be used as a way of ensuring

(26:32):
peace following an insurrectionor rebellion.
So it was meant to be well-tim,know, very particular.
So they had a, they had a veryI kind of.
It was meant to be usedspecifically for acts deemed
injurious to the United Statesbut after the fact can be seen

(26:56):
as to the benefit of the U?
S and the other way to kind ofmove forward and build peace and
build that tranquility.
I think another argumentHamilton had made was that by
keeping in the executive itcould be more expedient.
When you do keep things inCongress they can maybe slow
things down a little bit forgood or bad.
But yeah, I know there werethose that definitely fought

(27:20):
against it.
You had our good oldanti-federalists and one of the
big heavy hitters in that group,george Mason said at the
Virginia Ratifying Convention.
He argued that the presidentought not to have the power of
pardoning because he mayfrequently pardon crimes which

(27:40):
were advised by himself, whichwere advised by himself.
So he saw it from a very earlystage as it could be used as a
political tool, as a politicalweapon for presidents to
basically engage in criminalactivity and using a pardon as a
cover for that activity.

(28:04):
Basically, encouragingcorruption and tyranny correct,
it's tyranny dude, it's tyrannybig time.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
So and I just I think he saw the writing on the wall
back in the day yeah, I thinkone thing that I came across, um
, as far as how this pardon, howthe how the power of the pardon
has been strengthened over theyears, something happened in, I
think it was a Supreme Courtcase in 1886.

(28:34):
It's called Ex Parte Garland, Iguess is how it's said.
But basically what happened wasin 1865, after the Civil War,
the US Congress passed a lawbasically trying to keep anybody
who was involved in theConfederacy out of Congress and
out of government by forcingthem to pledge an oath that said

(28:57):
that they had never served inthe Confederate government.
But, as we'll get to, all of theConfederacy in general was
pardoned after the Civil War.
So this guy, augustus HillGarland, who was a former
senator from Arkansas in theConfederate States, he said, hey
, the Congress isn't letting mejoin because of a crime that

(29:19):
I've been pardoned for.
I shouldn't have to face thatbecause I've been pardoned by
the president.
So he brought that to theSupreme Court.
The Supreme Court actuallyruled in favor of this guy
Garland, saying that thepresident's authority to pardon
is unlimited and extending toevery offense known to the law
and able to be exercised eitherbefore legal proceedings are
taken or during their pendency,or after conviction and judgment

(29:42):
, which made a point to say itcan't be done before a crime is
committed.
Now, at that same end, whatJohn was getting to is there are
ways that the government cancheck these pardons.
Congress has the ability withimpeachment or other
constitutional tools that areable to, you know, check his

(30:05):
pardon.
So if he pardoned somebody hecould be impeached for that
pardon.
I don't think that's out of thequestion, which I think is the
check there.
I don't know if it would everhappen.
It'd have to be somethingreally crazy, because it hasn't
happened yet and we're going tobe getting into some pretty
crazy pardons here.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Self-pardoning too.
We haven't seen that yet either.
Self-pardon, which is thediscussion too.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
And the other thing I wanted to bring up it's only
federal crime, so state criminaloffenses or federal or state
civil claims cannot be coveredin the pardon.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
Right.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
So what John and I wanted to do?
We just wanted to go throughyou know we're no experts on law
Right kind of categorize themas what we would consider a good

(31:03):
pardon, or one that we feelfollows the original intent of
the Constitution, and then acouple that might be considered
bad pardons or that we feelmaybe an abuse of power not
really achieving the goal.
That was the reason for givingthat president the power.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
And if the president is acting in a moral way and
character as per his oath todefend and uphold the
Constitution.
So the very first pardon everwas done by President George
Washington for the WhiskeyRebellion.

(31:43):
George Washington for theWhiskey Rebellion, and it was
pretty controversial, in largepart because it was the first
one.
You know you're breaking themold.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
But I would say it's almost.
It didn't take too long to geta pardon and it's pretty wild.
I think they'd be like whenthey wrote the Constitution,
like, yeah, we'll put that inthere, it's never going to
happen.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, we'll never use it.
But little did they know.
But yeah, so in 17.
In 1794, we had the WhiskeyRebellion, which was a rebellion
of.
Western Pennsylvania would makewhiskey with the corn and the

(32:27):
grain that they had in excessfrom their year's harvest and
they would sell the whiskey totry to get a little extra cash

(32:47):
in the pocket for the coldmonths.
They're really upset about thatbecause it would only apply to
whiskey.
It did not apply to beer.
So New England, for the mostpart, was left out and this
really chapped them.
So they started burning downtax offices and hanging
Alexander Hamilton and effigyCause he was the treasurer at
the time.
To this day I love a goodeffigy story, I really do.

(33:14):
To this day his picture ishanging is hanging upside down
in a bar and outside ofPittsburgh the bar is like super
old Still to this day.
They kind of have that homageto him and yeah, under.
So on Washington's behalf ofVirginia.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Governor Henry.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Lee, did you say homage Huh?

Speaker 2 (33:37):
Homage to him.
Yeah, it's a joke.
No, but that's not how youpronounce that word.
Is it homage to him?

Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, it's a joke.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
No, but that's not how you pronounce that word, is
it?
It's an homage.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
H-O-M-A-G-E.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
It's homage.
Would, you say Homage.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
It's silent H.
I didn't know that, anyway,yeah, so these guys Richmond're
just cool business.
Ladies and gentlemen, 20, 20year in existence.
Yeah, so washington.

(34:18):
He called in troops to quellthe opposition.
It was getting crazy.
People were getting tarred andfeathered.
Tax agents were getting tarredand feathered.
So these tax guys.
If you were an early taxcollector working for the
pre-IRS back in 1790s- you didnot want to be in Western CIA.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Such a geek dude, what a narc.
Well, guys, I need your taxes.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Got this new republic .
You see here, uh got.
My boss, alexander hamiltonsent me out here to get the
money from you.
Hey, you're making that whiskeythere boys.
Oh, let me get some of that.
I gotta get your money.
And just imagine showing up onthese farmers.
Dude, just living the hard lifewestern pa.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah, like working in the field, working on the field
like 15 hours a day, and thenyou come in with your suit on.
You're like we're trying tobuild some nice new.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
We're trying to build a new capital in washington dc.
It's a swamp now, but it'sgonna be great.
You're gonna love it.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
You're gonna love it I feel like, why are you
building on a swamp?

Speaker 1 (35:14):
ah, it's a good point see well, because my boss again
, alexander hamilton.
He made a deal with the southsaying that if we move the
capital from new york city, uh,somewhere more south, uh,
they'll assume our debt, thestate debts.
And uh, that's when I got a job, see, because, uh, we needed to
collect all this money for, topay for those debts that the
states incurred during thisrebellion.
So revolution.

(35:35):
So here I am Give me your money.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Money please.
Yeah, those farmers areprobably like wow, this guy is
something else.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Oh, and, by the way, new Englanders don't have to pay
the tax because they make beerand I can't really tax that that
much.
So it didn't go over well anduh yeah.
So basically people were youknow, we think we've talked
about a previous sin governor ofpennsylvania was like well, we
don't need the federal troops tocome in, I'll take care of it.

(36:14):
Like, don't have to send in themilitia, don't worry about it.
Washington did send in 13,000troops to quell the opposition.
And then a lot of these whiskeyrebel leaders were charged with
treason, although many of themwere released due to lack of
evidence.
But those that were still beingcharged, they had to be

(36:35):
pardoned.
And although the very personwho said in the Constitution
that we could use the pardonpower in instances of
insurrection and rebellion,alexander Hamilton, he was very
much against pardoning thesepeople, so I guess he wanted to
make an example of them.
So old, duplicitous Hamiltonsaid one thing but wanted to do
another To his not his credit,but like it's.

(36:57):
Like, okay, we have this.
He needed to prove that thecentral government had a little
more muscle than what it hadunder the articles of
confederation.
But it's just so funny that thevery thing he said that the
pardon should be used for uh, hewanted it to not be used for
that.
Uh, fortunately for us, for youknow, one of the greatest
presidents we've ever had,george washington he said, no,

(37:17):
I'm gonna use this pardon forjust that reason.
And he went ahead and executedthe first pardon in American
history which overturned acriminal conviction.
And it was the first time underthe young US Constitution that
the federal government wieldedmilitary force to quilts on
citizens 1795.
We got a good and bad Weighthem up.
Okay, we got our first pardonused, I would say,

(37:40):
constitutionally.
I think Matt and I would bothagree this was a good pardon for
what it was meant to be usedfor.
But, you know, would have beennice if it didn't have to come
to the federal government havingto send the military in to put
it down.
Um, that would be very, uh,ominous for the future.
That was the first pardon, anda good one at that.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Good one, good one, he gets an.
A-plus for me for that pardon,that's.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
S-tier, that's S-tier right.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
That's an S-tier pardon for sure.
Another one that we want totalk about we kind of talked
about before.
I don't think we have to go tooin-depth with the rest of these
.
Really, that one's a good one,just because it's kind of laying
the groundwork for it.
Jefferson Davis, president ofthe Confederacy after the Civil
War.

(38:35):
Basically, we kind of talkedabout this, I think, before
talking about Abraham Lincoln.
One thing that probably isn'ttalked about as much, I guess
you could say there's a lot oftalk about how he freed the
slaves, blah, blah, but onething was welcoming the south
back with open arms.
He felt like we don't want tokeep this thing going.
We won the war.
We don't want to rub theirnoses in it, we just want to.

(38:55):
Let's keep moving forward,let's get these guys back on
board so we can strengthen backthe union to what it once was.
So he wasn't able to do ithimself, but his boy, andrew
Johnson, who was his successor,to kind of carry out his plan
for reconstruction.
As far as welcoming them back,as far as he could, but he.

(39:19):
So he was pardoned, but thecharges for the treason were
never so.
Jefferson Davis was arrestedfor treason in 1865, at the end
of the Civil War.
He was in prison for two yearsin 1867.
Andrew Johnson granted a fullpardon to Davis, but although he
was pardoned, the charges fortreason were never formally

(39:40):
dropped.
So he never regained asignificant role back in
politics.
So he didn't have to.
Basically, there's differentlevels that you can pardon
someone too.
You can pardon them and wipe itcompletely clear, or you can
pardon them in a sense of like,let's just get him out of jail.
So there's different levels.
So he never I mean not like hewould have been able to get a
job anyway, it's not like hewould have been able to get a

(40:05):
job anyway it's not like hewould have been like.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
My name is davis jefferson.
I'm here to run for forcongress.
I feel like people knew whothis guy was a tax collector
yeah, so I think our secretaryof war so I mean, I think that
was a good one again, again.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
It was the purpose of the purpose of that that, uh
pardon was to unify the country,like I said.
But it, but it did kind of tickoff some Republicans and
actually, in unifying it I thinkit also rifted it a little bit.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
Well, he had to do it .
He had to wait until Congresswas out of session to pardon
other Confederates andSoutherners on the condition
that they would take an oath ofloyalty to the Union.
So he couldn't even pass thepardon while Congress was in
session because the radicalRepublicans that basically
wanted to throw the book at theSouth, they did not want to do
what Lincoln said and let him upeasy.

(40:51):
The radical RepublicansThaddeus, stevens, sumner,
others from the North, theywanted to throw the book at the
southerners and not grantpardons and they wanted to
basically make them, you know,pay for everything you know.
And but, uh, johnson was notvery liked by a lot of those

(41:12):
republicans, as matt said, andso, yeah, he had to kind of do
it on the sly a little bit and,um, he did it, but it was
certainly left very, it was veryfractious and it wasn't done.
I think he had a good intention.
I think lincoln did have a goodintention.
I think he was correct in whathe was going to do had he not
been shot.
And it would have beeninteresting to see what could

(41:33):
have been had lincoln not beenshot.
Um, but yeah, confederates, andJefferson Davis the first among
them, was uh was pardoned anduh, also an A plus maybe S tier
yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
I give him a tier cause.
It did probably put a littlebit more division between the
Democrats and Republicans.
Let's give him an eight yearfor that.
So another one.
Vietnam draft Dodgers 1977,jimmy Carter.
So another one.
Vietnam draft Dodgers 1977,jimmy Carter.
So Vietnam War was a prettycontentious time.
We didn't live through it, butour parents did, so we know a
little bit about it.
A lot of people didn't know whywe were over there.
We won't really get into that.

(42:11):
So people fled to Canada.
They sought exemptions.
They just bounced and avoidedthe draft and if they did that,
you either got caught, you wentto jail, you were stuck in
Canada, couldn't come back, oryou'd go to jail if they caught
you coming back over the borderafter the war.
So Jimmy Carter wanted to pardonthem.

(42:31):
So he did Another way to saylet's put this whole Vietnam War
Because at this point and again, this probably didn't help
solve this too much.
But a lot of people who foughtin the war didn't like the
people who dodged the war andthere was a lot of that going on
.
So Jimmy Carter, maybe to takeit upon himself to say
everything's forgiven, it's over, let's put it past us, let's do

(42:52):
it, but I will say it onlyapplied to those who had not
committed violent acts or beingconvicted of war, war-related
crime.
So, if you like, incited a riotor something part of your, as
part of your draft dodge which Ithink happened a lot, or
whatever, you didn't getpardoned.
It was only for, like, thepeaceful people.
You know that.
So it didn't pardon anybody for, like, blowing up a government

(43:15):
building because they didn'twant to go to war, which I don't
think happened, but it didn'thappen which didn't happen, so
the insurrectory behavior wasnot pardoned.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
If you were a draft dodger, yes, okay, I think on
that score alone we got to giveit.
Wait what's after A?

Speaker 2 (43:36):
I'd give it a B.
I'd give it a B, but I don'tknow.
It depends on the violent acts,though.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
But think about the Whiskey Rebellions.
They were tolerating featheringtax collectors and they all
kind of Well, they had taxcollectors fighting the Serpent.
They were insurrectory andrebellious.
It's a rebellious act just bydrafting it, I'll give you that,
judging the draft, we'll giveit a b, but it's like okay, as
long as they weren't destroyingprivate property and other
things like private things, andit was just like they were
making.
They were making a lot of noise.

(44:06):
Yeah, I think it's a b.
That's a b for me all right.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
The next one that I got here susan b anthony.
This is a little bit of adifferent one.
This is a.
This is a.
This is kind of a differentapproach to a part and I would
say that might be consideredsomewhat good but also doesn't
necessarily follow the originalintent.
I'll get to that.
Susan B Anthony, the suffragistback in 1872, she was convicted
of voting illegally as a womanwhen they weren't allowed to

(44:34):
vote.
So I don't know if shepretended.
I don't know if she pulled aDeborah Sampson and dressed up
as a woman or dressed up as aman to vote.
I I don't know if she pulled aDeborah Sampson and dressed up
as a man to vote, I don't knowbut she voted illegally.
She got caught, she got fined$100, but she never paid the
fine, but she was found guilty.
She never went to jail, butregardless.
On August 18, 2020, on the 100thanniversary of the ratification

(44:57):
of the 19th Amendment whichgave the women the right to vote
, 100th anniversary of theratification of the 19th
Amendment which gave the womenthe right to vote, trump granted
.
So.
Donald Trump granted aposthumous pardon to her.
He used it as, like he wassaying it was a symbolic gesture
for her legacy, since it wasthe 100th anniversary blah, blah
blah.
But a lot of people a lot ofwomen specifically and a lot of

(45:18):
people just in general likedetractors from it viewed it as
a way it was 2020.
So it may have been an attemptto get votes for women, when
probably not the most effectivething to be looking for votes
for women just based on what allthey, what women, are concerned
with in these days, rightfullyso.

(45:39):
So it looked as like this goesinto into.
I see the point as like hey,that was a time period that
we're not proud of.
We're happy that women can vote.
We're going back.
This shouldn't have been acrime, blah, blah, blah and
looking at it, but a big miss onthe timing that Alexander
Hamels 100 years might be alittle too late.

(46:05):
So I'm putting that on like ayeah, and I don't think I guess
I'd go C tier on that.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
C tier.
Yeah, they got the 19thamendment.
Like what she fought foreventually became law of the
land.
It's like that is her legacy,so it's like okay but it's on
the level of, like the turkeypardons.
I guess not that much less of,it's not that much more
effective but it is a rebelliousact, so you could make okay,

(46:40):
maybe it's an act of one, shewas, but it is a rebellious act,
so you could make Okay, maybeit's an act of one.
She was an individual engagingin a rebellious act.
What if she voted straightRepublican?
Maybe that's her problem.
Maybe that was her problem.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
That's all I have for Not saying that those were all
the good.
Those were all the good, thosewere all the good pardons in the
history, but just a couple thatwere highlighted.
I'm sure there were a bunch ofother great pardons that really,
yeah, were necessary and Ithink we scored them per the
constitution, though.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
And then that brings us to oh boy, the bad ones we
got.
A the bad ones we got a coupleof bad ones here.
A lot of them.
Too many to count, Way too manyto count.
So the first one here we haveBill Clinton's pardoning of his
half brother, Roger Clinton.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
Slick.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
Willie strikes again.
Yeah it.
Uh, it was a case where youknow it's a relative, which,
first and foremost, your firstquestion is going to be well,
how does that benefit?
How is that for the good of thecountry as a whole?
Like, what could thatindividual have been doing?
That's, by their being pardoned, everyone's feeling some

(48:01):
solidarity or tranquility or anability to move forward.
You know national healing kindof thing.
Um, basically what happened wasin the 80s his half brother was
charged with and served timefor cocaine use, for cocaine

(48:21):
charge, um, and so, yeah, he wasconvicted, did the time served,
did the time for the crime, andthen clinton went ahead and
pardoned him, basically to clear, expunge it from his record,
from yeah it's kind of how Iwould see it what's that to me?

Speaker 2 (48:44):
that's just.
It's just looks bad.
It was fairly unnecessary, itwas almost like a flex.
I feel like I take that as likealmost a flex from slick Willie
, like I can do this if I can dothis, so I'm going to.
I don't need to, but I'm goingto.
I mean, what really was gainedby that?
Just getting it expunged?

(49:05):
From what's this guy applyingfor a job?
To be a janitor at a highschool that he wouldn't have
been able to get with a cocaine?
Possession charge attackcollector for the irs so
inspired.
Actually I guess you probably,probably wouldn't have been able
.
I guess after that he would bebe able to get government jobs
that you wouldn't have beenbefore.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Yeah, if you're a convicted felon, that's a good
point there's tons of jobs youcan't get.
I mean, I understand and youwant to help a brother, you want
to help out your familyEveryone does.
If I could wipe away the crimesof I don't have any felons in
my family I'm aware of but um,yeah, of course you want to wave
a magic wand and be like Ireally I want that to be
expunged so you can live a fairlife moving forward.

(49:45):
But when?
you're the president of theunited states, you're held.
You're held to a hired standard.
In my opinion, or at least youused to be, that's what they
intended the office to be.
It was meant to be.
You know, if you were, if youwere, engaging in high crimes
and misdemeanors, those werelike deemed.
Are you not acting in concertwith what the constitution is

(50:07):
saying?
You need to be acting.
George washington, a man ofduty, you know somebody who lost
out.
You know lost a lot of his um,you know net worth and a lot of
his standing because of the timehe served in the presidency.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
And, as he's brought it up, on the last episode, john
.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
I know, but I'm trying to bring it back.
I'm just trying to say that itjust seems like it's just a
solid for bro and I thinkeveryone could.
People could say, well, heserved the crime, he did the
time.
Feel bad for the guy, I mean heshouldn't be held back.
But is that a pardonableoffense?

(50:48):
I would say no, I'm going togive that a.
Uh, I don't know on the on thisscale, I'm going to give it a B
Cause I think there's far worse.
There's one are far worse,there's ones far worse.
So yeah, that was Bill Clintonpardoning his half-brother Roger

(51:08):
.
Next one is Richard Clinton'spardoning of Teamsters president
Jimmy Hoffa in 1971.
So Jimmy Hoffa of Mafiakidnapped him and we never found
his body.
Fame In the time he was serving.
At the time, in the earlyseventies, he was ahead of the

(51:29):
teamsters and he was serving a15 year prison sentence for jury
tampering and fraud.
When president Richard Nixonpardoned him on December 23rd
1971, nixon had one condition,however, that Hoffa should quote
not engage in in I think youcalled him richard clinton,
richard nixon, you said richardclinton

(51:53):
they're both slick dicks, slickwillies, like dick, whatever you
want to call him.
Nixon had one condition is thatHoffa should not engage in
direct or indirect management ofany labor organization until at
least March of 1980.
Hoffa agreed and supportedNixon's re-election bid in 1972,
along with the rest of theTeamsters.
It is believed that Hoffa wastrying to reassert his power

(52:15):
over the Teamsters to findNixon's requirement when he
disappeared in 1975.
So yeah, defying Nixon'srequirement when he disappeared
in 1975.
So yeah, jimmy Hoffa probablynot the nicest guy in the world,
pretty shady characterObviously got involved with the

(52:36):
mafia in some way.
Yeah, he was charged with jurytampering and fraud, was
literally serving the sentenceout when he was pardoned.
I'm sure plenty of people inunions who he would have been

(52:59):
fighting for way, uh, how thiswould have brought, uh, any kind
of national unity or, you know,quota rebellion or whatever,
what have you?
Um, seemed a little shady to me, so I'm going to go eight here
on this one.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, me too.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
Mafia got involved.
Fat for the fact, it's weird,it's dicey.
And then, uh, next one here Igot the pardoning of patty hurst
, again by our boy, jimmy carter.
This guy's was had a hand ineverything.
So, patty patricia hurst, shewas the granddaughter of the

(53:39):
publishing titan WilliamRandolph Hearst.
In 1974, she made headlines whenan urban guerrilla group known
as the Symbionese LiberationArmy kidnapped her in Berkeley,
california.
Two months later she was 19years old and photographed
robbing a San Francisco bankwhile brandishing an assault
rifle.
And photographed robbing a SanFrancisco bank while brandishing

(54:01):
an assault rifle.
At her trial, defense lawyerfocused basically were saying
that you know she wasbrainwashed, she was put up to
it, she was acting basicallyagainst her will, like she
didn't know what she was doing,and that they were using
pervasive tactics, brainwashingtactics.
The defense did not work andHearst was convicted of bank
robbery on March 20th 1976.

(54:22):
She was in prison for almosttwo years before jimmy carter
commuted her seven-year sentenceand freed her from jail.
It was not until january of 2001where president bill clinton
granted granted her a fullpardon on the last day of his
presidency.
So we had carter and clintonget involved in one.

(54:46):
Just you know, carter got herout of jail.
Clinton gave her a full pardon,um, same situation, kind of, as
the other two.
You can make the kids like,okay, it's as on an individual
level.
It's like she was 19.
We all make mistakes, I knowwhat knows I have matt when you

(55:06):
were 19, you know no, no, no,you're an angel.
Um.
So, you know, ran with thewrong crowd, got kidnapped
wasn't asking to be kidnapped,as far as I'm aware.
Um, so you know, you feel badfor the girl, feel bad for the
family, even if they are, youknow, quite a.
They were a well-known andprestigious family, um, but

(55:29):
again, she committed a crime,not something that I think you
can just go ahead and and justexpunge and pardon for the
benefit of the whole country.
I don't see it.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
I'm going a tier again um, I'm going d tier c
tier c tier yeah, d tier well,I'm thinking, I'm thinking part
of them.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
I mean, I just don't see, I just don't see.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
I, I, I get it and she probably didn't deserve it,
but is there any proof of anykind of bribery?

Speaker 1 (56:07):
or collusion or anything like that.
The granddaughter of one of thecountry's most famous
newspapermen ever was like theydidn't have connections to be
able to like.
That went all the way up thechain.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
I mean, I've never heard of him before.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Who is it?
William Randolph Hearst Neverheard of him.
There's a castle in California.
Never heard of him.
Movie Citizen Kane is basicallykind of based off of him.
It's fictitious, but he's kindof the guy they're getting at.
He owned like a newspaperempire anyway yeah, maybe, maybe

(56:45):
I'll go be.
I don't think a see like ifthere's something in it for
Jimmy Carter well, in that case,I really wonder why he part
into this other person we'regoing to be talking about.
We'll get there.
Um, yeah, so that's another one.
I just thought that was kind ofcrazy.
Um, another one here.

(57:07):
We got bill clinton involvedagain.
We're not trying to single outcarter or clinton, just have
that on record.
It just so happens that, likeit just seems like the closer we
get to the present, it doesn'teven seem like they're trying to
even play to the constitutionanymore.
With this, with this power thatthey've been given in the
constitution, they just it justseems like they're pardoning

(57:29):
their friends and accomplices.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
So in 2001, they're also the only ones that chat gpt
came up with when you askedthem that's right in this.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
In this top 10 list in time magazine I'm reading we
have the white water controversy.
I mean, I don't know.
I was looking into this alittle bit.
I watched a 26 minute c-spanvideo on it from the 90s.
Like during the 1996 umpresidential campaign.
The republicans were kind ofspeaking out against it, but I

(58:02):
don't know all the ins and outsabout it.
You seem like you kind of had ahandle on it.
Who the Whitewater controversy?

Speaker 2 (58:12):
I don't know much.
It was something like theClintons might have been
involved.
In Arkansas there was aWhitewater housing development
that got in the real estate.
I don't know the Clintons wereinvolved somehow.
I don't know the Clintons maybewere involved.
It was never proven.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
Yeah, they kind of covered their tracks.
And there were these peoplelike the McDougals who were
indicted and, I think, convictedfor it was like a Ponzi scheme,
wasn't it?
yeah, effectively a ponzi scheme, yeah, to create these vacation
homes on this river in arkansas, and went, went bad belly up

(58:52):
and you know, they just theywere deemed as accomplices and
they were trying to pin it onclinton that he wasn't, they
were his associates and he wasin on it and he and hillary knew
all about it and like when shewas an attorney in the 90s, like
she did a lot of work and theywere, they did a lot of billable
hours for this bank that theseaccomplices were part of.

(59:12):
It was very dicey, very, youknow, very sketchy, and so the
clintons pardoned them and juston the surface, if people are
asking those questions, it'slike, well, what's your
involvement with them?
It just doesn't look good, youknow, it just looks.
It's not reflected very well,pardon susan, susan mcdougall,
who was um she was a real estateinvestor who served prison time

(59:36):
as a result of the white watercontroversy yeah, apparently she
.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
She spent two years in prison for contempt of court
because she refused to testifyagainst Clinton.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
And then she got a pardon.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
And then she got a pardon, she kept her mouth shut.
You know she did, but obviouslythere's not much of a threat
when Bill Clinton's president islike I'll just get pardoned s
tier on that one, he's going s Ithink.
So that one bothers me a lotbecause it's like a potential

(01:00:12):
that they're trying to you knowexactly what george mason said
of like trying to cover whatthey're like crimes that they
yeah what was the wording?

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
themselves were involved in having fall guys
that they can then pardon afterthe fact.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Yeah, yeah yeah, it really seems like that.
So I mean, that's exactly whatthey were warned against.
So I'm going to s on that oneand apparently it was a very big
comic.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
but pre-monica lewinsky I just feel like when
we think back of clinton'spresidency, like all, like the
drama that was, I think MonicaLewinsky really obviously took
the cake by the end of his term.
But this whitewater controversy, this was the biggest deal even
before he came into thepresidency and during his
re-election of 1996, it was areally big deal.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
Now we're going to get into some of the absurdities
of pardons.
The only one that I'm going totalk about from here it's not
actually it was never actually apardon, but I think it's just
something to talk about.
As we're getting into pardontalk, I think we want to talk

(01:01:16):
about Joe Exotic, the Tiger King, and the story of his pardon
for his crimes.
So those are the listeners whodon't know, john included,
because he never saw it.
He's one of the only peoplethat never saw the documentary.
There's a documentary on Netflixcalled Tiger King and there was
this guy, joe Exotic, and hebasically went to jail for

(01:01:37):
multiple things some animalcruelty, stuff but the big thing
was he hired a hitman to killsome woman who was his
competitor in the tiger tradebusiness or she was trying to
get him shut down, so he wantedto get her killed or something
like.
I forget.
I haven't seen it in a while,but um, anyway, he was, he's
been in jail, he's he'ssentenced to like 22 years or 20

(01:02:00):
, some years in prison and hethought that he was going to get
a pardon from from donald trumpbefore his presidency was over.
Um, so much so that he had alimo waiting for him outside of
the prison in preparation forhis release.
So he was like he's just likeHell Ben.
He thought that he was unjustlyconvicted and treated poorly

(01:02:23):
and all this nonsense.
I guess in his mind he hadTrump's ear, because at one
point Donald Jr used his mugshot, superimposed with Trump's face
on it, to like I don't know,for some social media posts
about.
I don't even know what thecontext was, but I just know
that that was done.
So he thought that like, oh,I'm in, I'm in with this family.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
They have solidarity.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
They have solidarity with me, he gets it.
I think that's what he reallytook from it.
But ultimately he didn't get it.
He didn't get pardoned, and theday that Trump left without
getting a pardon, mr Exoticposted a note on Twitter.
I guess it was saying I was tooinnocent and too gay to get a

(01:03:11):
pardon from Trump.
I only mattered to Donald Jrwhen he needed to make a comment
about me to boost his socialmedia post.
Boy, were we all stupid tobelieve he actually stood for
equal justice.
His corrupt friends all comefirst.
Equal justice his corruptfriends all come first.

(01:03:34):
And um, yeah, so uh, he didn'tget it.
But breaking news he stillwants to get one and he still
thinks he's gonna get one in2025.
So much so he is asking to bethe fish and wildlife director
in his cabinet, claiminghundreds of millions of dollars
are being wasted on thedepartment.
So he's like Trump, can youpardon me?

(01:03:55):
And they give me a job.
And I just have a side notehere that Joe Exotic is
currently engaged to a fellowinmate who is from Mexico, just
in case anybody needed an updateon.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
Joe.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
That's lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
That's pretty funny.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
I mean that would have been like a classic.
Might as well have done it.
I mean it's.
Is it that much different thanwell?
I guess I don't know Well.
I guess, the white, the whitewater.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Yeah, it seemed a little more above board.
Like you know, whatever I'mjust gonna work with you.
It doesn't seem as much smokeand mirrors with old Joe exotic
it's.
It's the real deal.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
I mean if he has, if having a having a limo waiting
for him is classic like the endkeys in the engine, ignition,
like it running Just going.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
He said that apparently here Joe Exotic says
President Biden should releasequote normal citizens like him
after Hunter Biden pardoned.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
I mean, I just think it's not the best strategy of
getting out of jail is trying toget a presidential pardon.
I think there might be If youreally think that you've been
wrongfully convicted.
I think there's probably a morestraight shooter type.
Oh, maybe some appeals theappeal process, get some
evidence, you know.
If you actually are not guilty,I think you can kind of go

(01:05:35):
through the proper legalchannels as opposed to like
going right to the presidentialpardon as your fail safe is
that's a uh that's a bold move,bold strategy.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
Definitely playing off of the Netflix.
Hey, I was on television.
How much y'all made a lot ofmoney off me.
I'll help you, you help me.
We'll make a new show together.
It'll be great.
That's funny.
I think we're delaying theinevitable here.
This is the what do you call it?

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
This is the coup d'etat of the entire podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
I mean, I watched a video not long ago, before we
got on air, that claims this ishands down the worst pardon in
US history.
Not like, without question, Ihave to agree.
I mean, when I, when I saw itin preparation for this episode,
I was like really and did it.
How is that not in all theselists?

(01:06:36):
You know, because I'm doinglike hunter, bider, pardon, like
, and it's all everyone's comingout with their you know, oh,
other crazy pardons in ushistory.
You see the richard nixon,which we didn't really get into,
but rich Nixon's pardon, yeah,the whiskey rebellion, like all
the famous ones, or well-knownones, the Confederacy, what have
you?
And this one just skirted on by.
It wasn't on any of these liststhat I was seeing, but

(01:07:01):
fortunately there's one YouTuberout there who spotted it for
what it is and I think it'shands down the worst Pardon ever
Go ahead man.
So in 1970, peter Yarrow of thefolk group, peter Paul and Mary,

(01:07:25):
was convicted of molesting a 14year old girl in uh, in a hotel
room.
It's a hotel, doesn't matterthe hotel room or his, yeah it
was a hotel room.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
She came to get a, an autograph from him.
Um, after, I guess after aconcert, her and her like 17
year old sister, and this guy,peter yarrow, answered the door
butt naked and, uh, had her.

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
Yeah, we won't get graphic with it, but he started
off naked, so so yeah, that's,that's what he was walking,
that's what she was walking into.
And um, so peter yarrow, maybejust back it up a second here of
Peter Paul and Mary fame sangthe song.
Their biggest hit was Puff theMagic Dragon.

(01:08:15):
That's all I know about it.
Live by the sea.
Other tracks they had wereLeaving on a Jet Plane.
That's the full title.
I'm leaving on a jet plane.
It's a good scene.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
I brought this up.
I think I brought this up acouple episodes ago, maybe
possibly the last episodeArmageddon.
Remember that scene whenthey're getting ready to leave
for the asteroid and Liv Tyleris like watching them or
whatever, and AJ, who is playedby Ben Affleck, is like saying

(01:08:56):
bye to her and they run intoeach other and he sings the song
All my bags are packed, I'mready to go.
I'm standing here outside yourdoor.
I hate to wake you up To saygoodbye.
So, kid.

(01:09:17):
And then remember Michael ClarkDuncan's like Leaving on a jet
plane Don't know when I'll beback.
And then Steve Buscemi Leavingon a jet plane you Don't know
when I'll be back.
And then Steve Buscemi Leavingon a jet plane.
You don't remember that scene.
I haven't seen the film.
You've never seen Armageddon.

(01:09:39):
No Dude, are you?
serious it's about an asteroidor something.
Coming to Earth, Dude it's oneof my favorite songs about it.
It's one of my favorite movies.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
It's good, it's real good, sounds like a great
soundtrack, so I was saying so.
In 1970 he was convicted.
I think the act happened in 63.
There was a couple instancesbut they came out after the fact
.
So years later, as of threeyears ago, there was another

(01:10:17):
thing, but anyway, we won't getinto that.
So he was convicted in 1970 ofmolesting a 14-year-old girl and
in 1981, on the eve before hebasically left office, president
Jimmy Carter pardoned him.
It's still it was the first andto this day the only example of

(01:10:39):
a sitting president pardoning acriminal for a crime against a
minor sexual crime against aminor sexual crime against the
minor I mean that's like theworst possible thing to do, and
then the optics of pardoningthat person is absurd but the

(01:11:01):
optics were kind of more afterthe fact because, and people
wonder, well, did he was thiskind of a setup and was it done
intentionally when he did it?
uh, carter's not on record of,even after he left office, of
explaining why he decided topardon yarrow, but when he
issued the pardon, it wasbasically when the iranian

(01:11:25):
hostage crisis was going on.
It was like as he was leavingoffice and you know that was on
the news, that was all over thenews was these hostages taken by
Iran and you know what's,what's Reagan going to do when
he comes into office.
So, basically, like, the pardonwas issued under cover,
basically, of the Iranianhostage crisis and a lot of

(01:11:46):
people were saying that that'swhy, like it wasn't, it didn't
break the news cycle and itwasn't.
People were in outrage about it.
Um, yeah, which is justhorrible.
So, but this peter yarrow cat,I mean he got in some hot water
just three years ago.
Other women have come forwardsaying that they were also.

Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
They were also his victim, uh, in the 60s, and I
mean you think about like youthink about doing a pardon like
that and then actually theamount of damage that that could
do in society having somebodylike that because if you pardon
him now, he pardoned it it waslike expunged from his record so
he wouldn't have to, you know,in today's system, register as a

(01:12:27):
sex offender or like be on thatlist or any background checks
wouldn't come up that he everdid this and the amount of
damage that that could lead tois like ridiculous yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
But people are saying , like, well, peter palmeri,
they were kind of, they were afolk group and they were
involved in a lot of likedemocratic initiatives, like
they've performed at differentcharity, democratic charity
events.
He performed in 2008 with Obamaand his campaign, so they've
been pretty big in theDemocratic establishment

(01:12:59):
basically since the 60s and 70s.
And so people are thinking,well, maybe Carter pardoned him
as like a I don't think becausehe's his biggest fan, but
because it's like I don't know.
They said he wrote a letter andhis kids.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
He said that because he was remorseful about it.
He acted remorseful about itand so he's like okay, if you're
really truly sorry about it,fine, I'll pardon you.
Which is insane.
It's insane because, like howmany everyone, how many other?
Yeah not only is that crimehave that?

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
who?
Who that commits that crime?
Well, one is I personally thinkI don't think he's really
deserving of it, but also he asa famous person at that time
just had a, had an audience, youknow, yeah, you're gonna read
that letter from a likepreferential, preferential
treatment there which is what alot of these pardons are, but
this is just like unforgivableand the fact that the fact that

(01:13:57):
carter wasn't worried about andthis isn't gonna look bad on my
legacy, no problem and it hasn't, it hasn't, it hasn't it's not
on any of these lists.
You google like hunter bidenpardon, like historical pardons,
like hunter biden none of theyarrow is not on any list of
like most absurd and like.

(01:14:18):
I mean he's still as you canstill say he's done good things.
It's maybe you know, but it'slike people could ask the
question of him and he candefend himself why did you
pardon a convicted childmolester?

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
The thing is that this is it's like?
Unforgivable and everything,but it was such a stupid pardon
that it doesn't get you anything.
It doesn't get you, it doesn'tget the country anywhere and
even like all these other onesthat we're saying are bad
pardons in that, like theWhitewater one, the potential
for that saying, are bad pardonsin that, like the whitewater
one, the potential for that orany like the jimmy hoff all the

(01:14:49):
stuff where there's like theremight be some conruption yeah,
fraud and corruption.
There couldn't even have beenthat so like there was no like
it's not it's not even bad.

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
It's not even like a bad, like it's just so obtuse oh
yeah, like just thick-headed,like he did the crime, like the
guy was convicted of a, like theevidence was there, like I feel
like with a lot of thesepardons you can kind of maybe
get away with it, because it'slike it's not black and white,
there are gray areas and that'swhere they get away with it.

(01:15:18):
Apparently, his kids, they said, and I guess they wrote in the
letter or he wrote on, like theydon't want to have a sex
offender father.
Like on the record they do.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
That stinks, man, that one stinks.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
And the fact that he got away with it by like the
iran crisis happening like rightafter it is you could say
whatever you could want aboutpeter garo as an individual and
what he's done after that, butthe fact that the president of
the united states deemed itnecessary to have to pardon him,
uh, that's an s?

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
tier, that's beyond s tier in my book that's, that's
s plus, that's that's double sit breaks the glass ceiling of
as bad as it gets yeah, the onlyone, as I said, only pardon or
individuals pardon related to acrime for a crime related to a
minor.

(01:16:13):
So yeah, I don't think we'regoing to get another one of
those in today's climaterightfully so.

Speaker 1 (01:16:20):
There's no way that would get by yeah, yeah, I don't
know how it skirted under.
Just crazy, unless he was justsuch a big fan, yo man jimmy
carter 1963.
Yo man, I got this new album,dude.
This album just about a dragonman.

(01:16:41):
It's sweet, dude.
I got my peaches growing thefarm.
I'm in georgia, man, I'm justgrowing my peaches.
He was a farmer.
Peanut, no peanut.
He was a peanut farmer.
That was what he ran on.
It was like his whole campaign.
He's like I'm the peanut farmerguy.
Yo man, I grown peanuts.
I'm in nighttime man.
I just put on this album withthis track on.

(01:17:03):
Maybe his kids wrote aheartfelt enough letter on their
dad's behalf.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
Like in crayon, Like please give my daddy a pardon
for diddling a 14-year-old.

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
Sad face like tears from their eyes, just like
waterfall tears from their eyes.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
With like handprints for their signature because they
can't sign it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
Picture of their dad naked in the doorway.
Let him go.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Here's the real question Do you think Biden
should pardon the January 6thpeople while he's still in
office?

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
I think if he does, that would be probably that
would be an S-tier move, a goodmove, because that would be in
spirit.
That would be an S tier move, agood move, because that would
be in spirit.

Speaker 2 (01:17:49):
That would be an S?

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
tier level of the use of yeah for sure, well timed
one.
Well, it doesn't allow hisother political counterpart to
do it, because when he does itit's only going to inflame, not
going to like calm the watersnow is only going to inflame,
not going to calm the waters Now.
Is it going to tick off Biden'sbase if he has one anymore and

(01:18:13):
other fellow Democrats andpeople that aren't against it?
I'm sure, but I think, in thespirit of what the power was
said to do in the Constitution,I think that's in line with what
Hamilton would say.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
It's almost like a textbook.
Use of it exactly I would agree.

Speaker 1 (01:18:32):
Now, people committed damages you could like charge
people for, like civil damage,like things they've come like
the.

Speaker 2 (01:18:37):
I mean you could do the same thing as, like pardon
some of them and leave the worstones in.

Speaker 1 (01:18:42):
Yeah, yeah, like the draft dodger thing, right, there
was, there was cut, there'scarve outs.
It was like, oh, if you didthings that were really really
bad, but like for 95 of thepeople that maybe just walked on
into the capital because theywere just in a crowd, yeah, I
don't know of any of.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
I don't know who all went to prison for it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
But yeah, you could find you make.

Speaker 2 (01:19:02):
He could maybe find a couple of them to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
It could be a way again for the democrats to come
back and try to retake the moralhigh ground where it's like the
whole thing with it is like itwas an attack on our democracy.
It's an attack on our democracy.
They were hammering that home,I mean to try to win an election
.
I don't think they were sayingthat to be principled about
anything.
But if they want to kind ofcome out from a position of
saying like no, like yeah, wedid lose, actually we need to,

(01:19:27):
really we need to be seriousabout healing now.
And while we understand thatthat was an attack on our
democracy, we have to believethat, you know, by pardoning
these individuals, it'll be thefirst step towards, you know, a
national healing.
And then they got to just playto the middle.
To the middle, they play to thesilent majority.

(01:19:49):
That's just like, oh, thatactually kind of was a cool move
.
Like you know, again, we allmake mistakes.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
That would be an Epic move.
That would be an Epic move.
I mean, I just put it on recordthat I think there's buttholes
should stay in, uh, in prison.
I'm gonna say that much.
I I'd say like to the same end,where, like if they got, if
they got pardoned, it's like ohyeah, okay, well, that's for the
reason that we're talking abouthere, but it's definitely not a

(01:20:16):
pardon for the reason that theyshouldn't be in there yeah, I
mean you can't just go onproperty and just you know, you
can't just behave that way.

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
You know there has to be, you know.
But it needs, yeah, it needs tostop being so politicized.
And if the democrats choose todo it, I know they'll be doing
it for political reasons, to tryto make themselves look better,
but I think it never can't beto eventually happen like it
can't just be like the side thathas their guy, they're always

(01:20:48):
going to pardon their guy.
Yeah, I mean, maybe it's goingto be political, like you need
to be a little more politicallysavvy.
It's like, well, if you want toreally beat Trump, well then
get out ahead of him and pardonthem before he can.

Speaker 2 (01:21:00):
It's just they just broke the rules and you
shouldn't break the rules.
I follow the rules.

Speaker 1 (01:21:04):
I don't want to live in a society where people go
breaking stuff and disrespectingproperty, even if it's
government property you need tohave the rule of law, as I
learned on my citizenship testthat you barely passed.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
I did good get the hell out of here barely passed.
I did good get the hulk out ofhere barely passed, please I
don't think all right.
well, I think that's pretty muchall that we have.
I uh just wanted to let thefans know, um, we're trying to
put together a best of episodeto uh wrap up the year here, the
year of 2024, um, so I kind ofI wanted to get some input from

(01:21:48):
the fans of what their favoritemoments may have been of the
show of the past.
I guess we started this thingin what?
March, february, yep, not afull year, but I want to get a
kind of a best of show and kindof go through them.
John and I will reminisce onall the great moments that we
had here.
So, just looking for anybody'sfavorite moments, shoot us a

(01:22:10):
text or hit us up on Twitter andwe'll, we'll, we'll play them
on air and, and you know,reminisce.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
Well, fun, fun time together.
All the memories and, hey,maybe we'll learn a thing or two
again, cause I can't rememberhalf the episodes we did.
So, memories, and hey, maybewe'll learn a thing or two again
, because I can't remember halfthe episodes we did so because
you don't listen to them, I haveamnesia you have selective
amnesia yeah, that's true it's a990 effect.

(01:22:40):
I select what.
I choose to remember like JimmyCarter selects his pardon cases
and you won't remember that inthree months I won't no of
course not.

Speaker 2 (01:22:54):
It's for the best yep , alright, well with that, we'll
see you guys next week see youguys.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
Thanks for tuning in stay.
Curious, thanks for tuning inStay curious Hairy legs.

Speaker 2 (01:23:25):
Come on, man, and we say bye-bye.