Carroll Ann Friedmann ~ Beyond the Pose: Understanding the Subtle Body in Yoga Practice

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Carroll Ann Friedmann is the co-owner of Ashtanga Yoga Charlottesville, a yoga studio in Charlottesville, Virginia, alongside her husband, Liam Buckley. She has a strong background in Integral Yoga and transitioned to Ashtanga Yoga after exploring different styles. Carroll Ann has spent extensive time training in Mysore, India, under the guidance of Saraswati Jois, daughter of the renowned Ashtanga guru Pattabhi Jois. Besides teaching, she has authored a book on the Yoga Sutras, emphasizing practical application for personal growth and self-reflection.

Visit Carroll: https://www.ashtangacharlottesville.com/

Key Takeaways:

• Personal Transformation through Yoga: Carroll Ann's personal journey showcases the transformative power of Ashtanga Yoga.
• Yoga Studio Management: She discusses the intricacies of running a yoga studio, emphasizing the need for adaptability and community focus, especially amid rising costs and external pressures.
• Evolving Ashtanga Practice: Carroll Ann stresses the importance of flexibility within the Ashtanga tradition, advocating for adaptations like Black Lotus Yoga to avoid injuries and enhance accessibility.
• Female Leadership in Yoga: Highlighting Saraswati Jois's pivotal role as a woman in the Ashtanga lineage, Carroll Ann touches on the significance of female-led teaching in a traditionally male-dominated sphere.

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Episode Transcript

Todd McLaughlin (00:33):
Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy
you are here. My goal with thischannel is to bring
inspirational speakers to themic in the field of yoga,
massage, bodywork and beyond.
Follow us at @nativeyoga andcheck us out at
nativeyogacenter.com. All right,let's begin.

(01:05):
Todd, hello. Welcome to NativeYoga Toddcast. My name is Todd
McLaughlin, and if you're alongtime listener, welcome back.
And for those of you that arebrand new, I'm really happy that
you're here today. My specialguest is Carroll Ann Friedmann.
She and her husband run theAshtanga Yoga program in

(01:27):
Charlottesville, Virginia. And Ihad a really amazing
conversation with CarrollAnn. Ithink you're going to love her
down to earth, nature and herperspective on yoga, Ashtanga
Yoga in this modern era. Andplease visit her on her website,
ashtangacharlottesville.com She,at the very end of the

(01:47):
conversation, speaks about abook that she put together, that
I'm excited to get that helps uswork through the Yoga Sutras in
a practical fashion. The linksare in the description. Check
her out. Send her some love.
We'd love to hear from you. Sendus a message, and let's go ahead
and begin. I'm so happy to havethis chance to be here with
Carroll Ann Friedmann. CarrollAnn, thank you so much for
joining me today. How are youfeeling? Great? Yeah. Yay. Yay.

(02:09):
You are the owner of a yogastudio in Charlottesville,
Virginia, called AshtangaCharlottesville. Can you tell me
a little bit about what how didyou come to run the studio, and
how long have you been at

Carroll Ann Friedmann (02:28):
it? I've practiced at AYC. That's what we
call sugary or Charlotte'sfault. I practiced there since
about 2010 with Jennifer Elliot,and maybe two or three years in,
my husband, who's a anthropologyprofessor, had a sabbatical, and

(02:48):
we decided to go to India forsix months with our four kids.
We were like a traveling circus,and all of us went and studied
with Saraswati Joyce, guruji'sdaughter and Mysore, and so I
was that was where I really kindof got my feet on the ground,
even though I'd been practicinghere for a few years. And when

(03:11):
we came back from thatexperience, I said to Jennifer,
I would really like to kind ofgo deeper into this tradition,
because my background had beenin intro yoga and Hatha. And so
I started, I just went to, shewould have workshops with all
the, you know, all the amazingpeople. They all came through

(03:33):
here, and I went to all of them.
I got to know people. And thenmy dear friend Ty Landrum was
kind of coming up as a yogateacher in that studio, so I
worked with him a ton, one onone. And after, I guess, by 2015
I had started assistingSaraswati in Mysore, which is
like going to grad school forAshtanga, because you're like,

(03:55):
hundreds of people are coming inand you have your hands on and
you just gotta be like you getover yourself. So anyway, I did
this for a few years, and and Iwould come back, and I would
help Jennifer, and then I wouldgo back, and I was back and
forth and back and forth forabout eight years. I would spend
three or four months a year inmy store. And so we I was deep
in but I was also trying tobecome more like a more of a

(04:20):
support person for her. And so Istarted running an evening
program at AYC. And then covidhappened, and it was we had
this, you know, like all of usduring covid, we were like,
Okay, now what? And, yeah, oneof our, one of our old time like
our you know, 10 yearpractitioners was an infectious

(04:42):
disease expert, and she said, Wecan do this. Here's how we're
going to do this. So we actuallystayed open in person, because
in Virginia, you just dowhatever you want. There are no
laws about anything. So westayed open in person for the
whole time we we opened ourdoors. And we closed in March
for a couple of months, got ouract together, opened our doors

(05:02):
in July. But Jennifer was justshe had a lot of anxieties about
doing this, because she alsoworked with some elderly folks,
and she was just feeling likeshe just didn't have the energy
for it and the bandwidth. And wejust said, we'll do it. And so
it was like that. It was like,okay, here go. And I was already
teaching. And, I mean, myhusband, Leanne and I were

(05:25):
already, like, helping her runthe show us. So it was just like
a one day, it was her. Next day,it was me, off we go. And so
we've been doing it together forfive years. And I, you know, I
look back, I didn't understandwhat it was like for her. Like,
I had no idea. I knew it waschallenging, but I had no idea.
And now that I've been doing itfor five years, my husband and I

(05:46):
together, I can't imagine doingit without him. Yes, a solo
person. I just can't evenimagine what that would be like.
So we very much are a team. I'mthe kind of, you know, I'm the
captain or whatever, but he's,like, whatever. They call him
the first mate, and he's, he'scritical. He also has, like, a
big job out there, so he can't,you know, but we're, we really

(06:09):
do it together. And we're fiveyears in, and then on Monday, we
got an email from our leaseholder at the Shala, where we've
been for 20 years. People aredeeply attached to the Shala,
and they'll tell me, Yep, he'sgiven it to the restaurant
downstairs. He's gonna renovate,and he's and he's expelling us.

(06:30):
But But amazingly, the samemorning, I had had a
conversation with Ballet Schoolabout something about renting
space from them, and just thisprickle in my head said, Ask her
about moving here. Not that Ihad any plans to move, but it
just, it just sparked in mymind. So we had a quick
conversation about that, and shesaid, yeah, we'd love to have

(06:53):
you. And then I walked out,going, Why did I ask her that?
Like I love my Shala. And thenthat afternoon, I got an email
saying we're ending your lease.
So, wow, I know, right, it wasbizarre. And then four days
after I found out we we endedthe lease, we had a new lease at
this so we're moving in Octoberto a new place, and it's a huge

(07:18):
deal for people. I mean, youknow, when you practice in a
place for decades. People getvery attached, and you do, but I
think it's actually going to bereally good for levels.

Todd McLaughlin (07:31):
Yeah, that's cool. I'm curious if you're
going to be are you going tosublease from the ballet center?
They are, yes.

Unknown (07:41):
Yeah. Are

Todd McLaughlin (07:43):
you feeling like there's going to be a
little bit of weight off yourshoulders? Because I think one
thing as a studio owner,sometimes we we think to
ourselves, uh, wow, the overheadis just enormous. If I could
somehow share overhead withsomebody else's in a similar
boat, and maybe pair my programdown a little bit so that, you
know, I don't have to worryabout using, utilizing access to

(08:06):
it, 24/7, to maximize profit,that that could be a huge weight
off the shoulders. I'm justcurious, how are you feeling
with this information inrelation,

Unknown (08:16):
it's the opposite for us. We had a crazy situation
where we had a lease that waskind of verbal, non written, and
had gone on for 20 years, andthey'd never raised our rent. So
our rent was insanely low, andas a result, I had the lowest
prices in Charlottesville forpractice. I was passing that

(08:36):
benefit on to my students. Youknow, I really, I deeply,
believe in affordable yoga. Sowe had these super low, shallow
fees. And people were like, Whyare you so cheap? And I'm like,
because my rent is very low. Somy rent is actually doubling
going to this new place. It'sstill low, but for the ballet
school woman, it's a huge it'slike, yeah, releasing a lot of

(08:58):
financial pressure, which isgreat. And my people are psyched
they're coming with me. I have afew sub letters that are coming
with me. It's going to be fine,you know, but it was really, I
think what the the weight that'soff me is now I have an actual
lease. I'm not doing this monthto month. So my friend Ty
Landrum, he ran the overworkshop when Richard and Mary

(09:19):
left Boulder, he ran the everworkshop there, and I was
actually with him, just visitinghim, when the same thing
happened to him. His landlordcalled, and they had a 30 year,
month to month verbal agreement,and just said, Okay, you got to
be out by the end of the month.
And he was like, What are youtalking about? It's been 30
years, and this is what happensto us sometimes, especially if
we've been on a shallow for along time. It gets kind of soft,

(09:40):
you know? And he made adifferent decision. He he looked
around. I mean, I was with him.
We were all over the place,looking for space. He couldn't
find anything. And it was areally clear sign to him that it
was time to pivot, because hehad started traveling a lot. And
it was, he just felt like, Okay,this is a we can. Can't, we
can't continue this. So he endedup the yoga workshop, kind of

(10:03):
hit the road, you know, hebecame like a traveling teacher.
We had a very differentexperience, where, when we found
out three days later, I had anew lease, and it was like,
okay, clearly, this is what weneed to do. So, yeah, but I
think when you, um, you knowwhen you run a studio or a Shala
and it's your it's your life'swork and it's your living, it's

(10:25):
so different. My husband is aprofessor. I am a I'm a
financial manager, so this is akind of love job for us. It's
not the way we support ourfamily, and it never has been,
yeah, and I am really, I have, Ihave a lot of respect for people
who put the whole, you know,they've put all their eggs in

(10:47):
that basket, because that'ssuper intense. And, I mean, I
found some friends, you know,Hamish, I have, I have a handful
of friends who've done it likethis. And I think it's amazing.
I've never done that. So it'sjust a different, you know, it's
a different

Todd McLaughlin (11:01):
Yeah, well, it's so cool to hear how you're
pulling it off and making ithappen. I feel like probably
every studio owner is under thesame challenge right now with,
you know, we had a similarsituation where we've been here
19 years, and so we needed to resign our lease. We have been

(11:21):
working on five year leases, butthere's so much development
happening in our neighborhoodhere, where we've been in June,
where we are in Juneau Beach,that the new person that bought
the plaza that we're in when wewere coming at the end of our
lease, he said, Okay, they said,Okay, we'll give you another
five years, which we were reallyhappy about. We thought we were
going to have to move, but atwith a 33% increase in the rent,

(11:44):
and there was no budging onthat, I know, so we had that
really tough decision to make,but we pulled the we pulled. We
made the decision that we'regoing to stay. We're going to,
you know, take on the challenge.
It does mean increasing the costof yoga for people, which I
agree with you. We want

Unknown (12:03):
to I'm also having to increase on my face.

Todd McLaughlin (12:05):
Yeah, yeah.
It's just the name of the game.
And, well, we have what I

Unknown (12:10):
what I've done, and I'm sure you do this is I lease
space to other yoga teachers whojust want to teach a one off,
and they're not part of mycurriculum or anything. We're
just a pretty straightforwardMysore. And, you know, we teach
red primaries. We have a veryAshtanga kind of modality. But
we, we've made our spaceavailable to so many people, and
they're really grateful, youknow. And even though we don't

(12:33):
charge a whole lot for theirrent, when you add it all up, it
really helps. Yeah, hugedifference. So we kind of, we
said, well, it said we have highfees, then I don't know. It just
happened, if we have high fees,then we will have fewer renters
than if we have lower fees. Andwe are, like, pretty much full

(12:55):
all the time, because our feesare about 50% lower than what
people around us charge for thesame thing, and it just keeps us
really full, and it's huge helpto us financially. Yeah, but
yeah, we all have to just figureit out. But I'm also kind of,
like, I get a little, I don'tknow, I won't go on a rant that
it's too bad that these propertyowners can't just, like, respect

(13:18):
the work that we do. And, youknow, give us a break. I wanted
to say to this guy, doesCharlottesville really need
another big old restaurant?
Like, we've got, like, a billionof them, and how many 20 year
old yoga studios do we have?
Like, two? So it's hard to comeup against that very

Todd McLaughlin (13:39):
Yeah, corporate. Well, good point. And
I think what I'm noticing too,with the rise of AI technology,
that in person, practice spacesare becoming more valuable
because, you know, there's more.
You know, we're seeing a rise injust like, you know, online

(14:00):
capabilities. But, and then, youknow, I interviewed someone
recently. He's from India, andhe was, you know, straight away,
was saying, like, Hey, prettysoon, robots are going to be
teaching yoga, so personalizedtouch is going to be a really
big deal. And then I just readan article the other day that
people are asking the questionlike, What should I encourage my
children to do as we moveforward in this environment? And

(14:23):
the overwhelming response was tohave hands on professions, jobs
that actually require humantouch. And so I think a yoga
studio where people can comeinto a space, be around other
humans, have it authentic, andthat's becoming more valuable as
more online spaces are

Unknown (14:46):
popping. Yeah, we're, we run, we're Ashtanga. You have
a Charlottesville. Ourbackground is very sort of
Ashtanga. You know, it's verylike stay. And you're like, you
know, this is what we do. Butsince Liam and I have started
running it, we've become very,very open minded and very

(15:09):
expansive and kind of, we'vediversified what we do. And so,
like, we have a mentorshipprogram that we run where our
students who are going throughlife stuff will, like, have
meetings with us and set goals.
And, you know, that's just partof our modality. And then we
also run an apprenticeship, aswe have a teacher training

(15:30):
curriculum. And then when peoplegraduate from the teacher
training, they can becomeapprentices, so they can
actually be in the miser roomworking with us, with their
hands on people. And it's, itfeels great for them to be able
to, you know, practice whatthey've learned. And, yeah, but
it also that literally hands on,you know, like, as a Shami
people like ashga yoga teachers,we teach with our hands. And you
can't get that on Zoom, youknow, you can't, like, you can't

(15:54):
have the, the sort of magic ofbeing touched and held and you
know, so that's a that'ssomething that a robot will
never do.

Todd McLaughlin (16:05):
Agreed, agreed.
I agree with you. Can you youmade mention pre podcast that
you first got involved withyoga, within integral Yoga, you
talk a little bit about whatyour what the transition was
like, or what got you excitedabout Ashtanga as an integral
and or hatha yoga practitioner?

(16:28):
Yeah,

Unknown (16:28):
so I was at a prenatal yoga class. I was just kind of
bopping around, pregnant, youknow, looking for yoga. And a
friend took me to inert yogaclass, and I really fell in love
with the because I've been togym yoga for prenatal but in
Article, yoga, you sit down, youyou chant for a bit, and then

(16:48):
you do this practice, and thenyou sit down, and then you do
pranayama, and then you do ayoga nidra. And it's very It had
all the lens, you know, and itfelt very sort of spiritually
robust to me. And I was sort ofpost religion. When I came to
yoga, I'd been involved. I had amaster's in Divinity degree, and

(17:08):
I'd been involved in theChristian church for, you know,
15 years, very deeply. And Ileft that, like, pretty, like,
extremely. Also left a marriage.
It was one of those, you know,big explosions and bodies
everywhere anyway. So I came toyoga. I was like, yeah, no
religion, thank you. But thisjust felt so rich. And I was
like, Oh, this. So when myyoungest, I have four kids, when

(17:33):
my youngest was three or fouryears old, I I continued to go
to these classes, and I took ateacher training and sort of
went off the deep end with, youknow, the yoga thing. And I was
doing that for a while. But theproblem for me was I had been a
marathon runner and veryathletic, and I found that
postpartum was fine, like beingpregnant and doing integral yoga

(17:56):
was fine. But when I got to thepoint where I was like, back in
my body, I was needing somethinga little more like, a little
more like what a marathon Hunterlooks for, you know, we, if you
teach Ashtanga, you know, weself select, like we're all a
little type A, and my Shallot isfull of people who are General
overachievers in their lives.

(18:19):
Super intense, super like,motivated, disciplined, just
that's how I was. And theintegral yoga tradition was
beautiful, but it was just alittle too soft, and I wanted
something, a little heartbeat,so I went to a couple other
classes that a friend took meto, and they were so hard I
thought I was gonna cry. I wasjust like, Oh my God. Like, I

(18:43):
was like, This is so hard. Butthen I, you know, it's like,
okay, but there's something inhere that I really like. And
Jennifer, the old yoga teacher,she said, Okay, you need to come
to my store. And I was like,where's that, you know? So she
explained the whole Mysoremethod to me, and I was like,
all right. And I hated it. Imean, truly hated it. Like I

(19:04):
would go to my store, becauseshe was kind of making me if I
wanted to practice, and it wasthe best Yoga Studio in town,
hands down. So I was like, Iwant that one. And she's like,
You have to come to my store. SoI would go, and I would go with
this friend of mine. We'd leave,and I'd be like, Oh my god,
Don't you just hate that? Wasit? I'll give worse that. And he
just look at me, like, no. And Iwas like, oh, you know. So this
was me for like, a year. I wasjust like,

Todd McLaughlin (19:26):
do you think it was because you had to memorize
the sequence, or what part isit? Were

Unknown (19:30):
you anything? I was a freaking runner. My knees were
tight. Lotus hurt like crap. Icouldn't do there were, like, in
primary series, one day Icounted, and there were 17 poses
I couldn't do like it was just atrain wreck, and I was like, I
couldn't, I couldn't even do aheadstand against a wall, like I
couldn't push up into Urdd onyour asana, even with people

(19:52):
like

Todd McLaughlin (19:53):
it was a disaster,

Unknown (19:56):
and I was, I was so embarrassed, you know? Know,
there's like an ego bonfire, butsomething in me was like, No,
this is it. Ca, you better stayhere. This is it. So I people
laugh at me because now Ipractice third series like I'm,
you know, full on, drank theKool Aid, like I've been I'm
almost 60 years old, and Ifinished third series last year,

(20:19):
which was pretty cool, in mylate that's a big deal. That's,
yeah, yeah. And I was 45 when Istarted ashanga, you know, that
was another problem, yeah. Butthen my friend Ted says, oh,
yeah, I remember you. And I'mlike, I'm like, the turtle and
the turtle in the hair, like,slow and steady, you know, yeah,
because I, I have no naturaltalent, but I am so persistent

(20:42):
and so disciplined, and so theAshton system was perfectly
designed for someone like me,because it was like, Okay, I
don't like to be told what todo, but I like to tell myself
what to do, right? So I took theinitiative. And then after, you
know, after a few years, likemiracles were happening, like I
was, I was like, I can't believeI'm doing this, you know. And I

(21:05):
remember the first time I wentto my sort Todd, you know, the
whole scene, and I went in tosit in the hallway and watch
second series, you know, howpeople do that the one second.
And I was watching it, and I waslike, like, seriously, I thought
I was going to be sick,especially like when they were
doing, like, the Star WarsMarch, you know, titty Boston to
be. And I just looked at myhusband. I went there, who were,

(21:29):
who are these people? Like,where did they come from? What
they're like, Gumby humans. AndI was, I couldn't imagine. And
now I can I lead, I teach a leadsecond while I'm practicing it
like, you know, thetransformations that happened in
the Ashtanga system are mindboggling. So that was what
really kept me in the door, wasthis, like, incredibly

(21:53):
transformative experience, andjust watching things, watching
impossible things happen, notjust to me, but to everybody
around me, you know, like, Ihave people who, anyway, you
know, the stories, just thethings that happen are just
like,

Todd McLaughlin (22:09):
so, yeah, yeah, that's I love hearing. I love
hearing your perspective. It isamazing, like that, isn't it? It
is transforming little

Unknown (22:17):
kids. Yeah, Sarswati taught my eight year old, my 10
year old, and they spent fourand a half five years studying
with her. We were homeschool,homeschooling them. And so they
were there all the time and andjust to watch how it, how it
nurtured their character andtheir their confidence. And it
was just amazing. So practice,how old were you? 2123 and then

(22:41):
I

Todd McLaughlin (22:42):
have 112 years ago, or 10 years ago, about 12

Unknown (22:45):
years ago, and they're still practicing, you know, and
they're still and theircharacters have been shaped by
the experience of yoga. So it'sreally amazing. So I just
wanted, you know, I don't dothings halfway, and most of my
students don't either. That'sthe kind of, that's the kind of
student Ashtanga tends to track,to attract, you know, or people

(23:05):
who are just like, yeah, wearen't halfway people. We're
like, all the way people. And,you know, it's been really
awesome just to see this entirecommunity and the transformation
and the depth, the depth of,like, love and commitment and
connection we have to eachother. You know, when you
practice next to somebody in amy store room, you may not even
know their name, but you feelthis deep bondedness with them,

(23:28):
you know. And it's like, deeperthan conversation. It's deeper
than, like, sociality. It's,it's got this, like, pure
resonance, you know. And it'sreally, yeah, that's really
awesome. So we have a beautifulthe community in our Charlotte
is really exceptional. And, youknow, I will stay around for 10

(23:49):
more years just to be aroundthem.

Todd McLaughlin (23:52):
That sounds amazing. That's so cool. I know
it takes a lot of energy. Howmany days a week are you showing
up to lead class? Are you there?
We have a

Unknown (24:01):
five morning a week miso program, Monday through
Friday. And then we also teachevening Mysore Monday through
Thursday. My husband does thatbecause I'm like, ready to go to
bed. And then we do a Saturdaymorning chronic. So the other
thing we do at AYC is we'vewe've kicked out the we're not
really an Asana centered, likewe have so many other limbs

(24:23):
going on. So we have a pranayamaand meditation class every
Saturday morning that's verywell attended, followed by
vinyasa. And this is the otherthing we're doing in terms of,
like, open minded innovation. Myfriend Ty Landrum has created
Black Lotus yoga, which is a,it's kind of like, you know, the
rocket. It's a, it's a newsystem, but it's a, my source

(24:47):
style system. And it isgorgeous. I mean, it's truly and
one of the beauties of it, Todd.
I mean, if you've been doingthis 19 years, you could
probably tell me how manystudents you've lost to knees.
You know, like Ashtanga is somepeople. People are like, Yep,
it's wrecking my knees I'm outof here, or to lower back
because of the compressions. SoBlack Lotus is this system that
really delays the introductionof Padmasana poses until people

(25:11):
have had a long time to, like,open the hips and, you know? And
it's amazing, like my studentswho are practicing Black Lotus
because I'm teaching italongside. They're they're not
wrecking their knees. And, youknow, some students who left
because their knees were trashedhave come back and started this,
and they're like, oh my gosh,this is amazing. So we're really

(25:33):
trying to, yeah, radicalaccessibility is our number one
priority at a YC, like, that'slike, that is, like, the rule.
And so we use props. We usedifferent forms of poses. We
substitute poses, you know,like, we'll substitute, I don't
know Bard vadrasana from our ID,like, whatever it takes to keep
people in the practice. And it'sreally cool, because that's not

(25:57):
how I was raised, you know,yeah, yeah.

Todd McLaughlin (26:03):
Did, did Saraswati? I've had a chance to
practice with Saraswati a fewtimes. Do you feel like she took
a slightly more gentle role inthe relationship of teaching
Ashtanga, as opposed to the waySharat and or Pattabhi Jois was
holding it down? Do you feellike she Yeah.

Unknown (26:21):
I mean, we were a different Shala. You've been in
her Shala, right? You said youstudied, oh, I

Todd McLaughlin (26:27):
practiced with her when she was assisting
patabi Joyce. And when we werein India in 2004 in Mysore,
Pattabhi Joyce was there, andSharat and Saraswati were all in
the room together, yeah, I knowthere was a little bit of
changing of situations and overher place. And so I didn't
practice

Unknown (26:46):
very different. Okay, so she, I was there when all
this went down in 2014 she cameback from helping sharap. She
would teach us. We were herlittle Shala and her little
house, you know, around thecorner, and we were all kind of
packed in. And then when we weredone, she would go and help
Shera, and there weren't many ofus, so, you know. And one day

(27:07):
she just came home and she said,I'm done. I'm like, What do you
mean? She's like, I'm not doingthat anymore. And I was like,
what happened? She goes,everybody wants to be a teacher,
nobody wants to be a student.
And that was her kind of final,her final call on Sharat Shala.
And he was not happy. I mean, toput it mildly, she was like, You

(27:29):
know what? I have all mystudents, I'm going to be fully
committed to you guys. So whathappened that was in 2014 2015
to 2018 her shella blew up likewe were, oh, my God, we were
packed. I would start I wouldpractice at 430 I'd get up and
start teaching at six, and Iwouldn't leave the building till
noon, like we were just slampacked. The difference that was

(27:51):
happening in this show was shewould see someone, and she would
know what was possible, okay?
And if it was possible, just bylooking at them, if it was
possible, to do something like,say, a bind and Marcy, she would
hold them there, and she'd say,try it again. Try it again. Try

(28:12):
it with, help. Try it with, youknow, Prashanti. That's what she
called me, Prashanti, go overthere and help so and so. And
she would hold, hold the patternuntil it happened. But if she
saw someone and she knew thisbody is not going to bind in
Marie Dee ever, it's not goingto happen or it's not going to
happen in the next 10 years, shewould have them modify the pose,

(28:35):
hang out for a bit and move on.
And it was like there were nogateway poses, none. What she
did for me personally was myback bends were a train wreck,
like I could, I told you, Icouldn't push off the floor, and
I was doing primary, well,there's this now I think, kind
of crazy thing where we do allthis primary forward bending and
twisting, and then we go, Hey,do urban on your asana. And

(28:56):
people are like, Well, somepeople can just pop up. But if
they're like me, no way. Andthey get really frustrated. So
she as soon as I'd finishedsedubdasana, she said, Okay, I
keep going. And she sent me intosecond series, and she had me
practicing all the way throughto Strassen, and then, lo and
behold, I could do Batman, youknow. So there was no like, Oh,

(29:21):
you've got to drop back andstand up. I would have never
left primary series if she'ddone that to me. So she told me
later, when I, you know, workedwith her for years and years and
years, she said, six monthsprimary only. Then you get on
with it, she's like, more thansix months and the student will
get sad. That's all she put itsad, heavy, depressed. She
understood the kind of a panicnature of primary and she's

(29:45):
like, You can't keep people heretoo long, because it starts to
get, you know, and it wasbeautiful, because she was just
through her, her modeling, shewas showing me how to be a
teacher. And so. Yes, I verymuch, from the very beginning,
have embodied that spirit of yesand like. And also she taught me

(30:05):
how to how to look at bodies andkind of see what was possible.
You know, I kind of startedlooking through her eyes. I
mean, I worked with her for fiveyears, you know, yeah, so I'm so
grateful still. I mean, peoplewill say, How did you know I
could do that? And I'm like, myteacher told me, you know, she
taught me how to look at youryou know, how to look at bodies

(30:26):
and how to see possibility. Ididn't learn that myself. I got
it, you know, from her. And,yes, so, and also, even now, her
leads. We start the lead, wefinish the lead. We sit down, we
do pranayama, we chant for like,20 minutes, and then we take
rest, and she waits until we'reup before she leaves. Like,

(30:47):
there's this courtesy, this,like, kind, sweet, and I've
never once seen her Todd be uglyto anyone, like ever. Yes, I've
never seen her snap at anybody.
Now, behind the scenes, she andI are very close, and I'll go
home and have coffee with her,and she'll be normal, you know,

(31:08):
she'll Yeah, bitch a little orwhatever. But in the Shala, she
is equanimity itself, and itcreates this sense of safety
people feel in Saraswati shower.
They feel safe, they feel takencare of. You know, there's a
nurturing quality, and that'swhat I very much tried to bring

(31:29):
to AYC. And people have told me,This is my safe place. This is
my happy place. This is where Ifeel. I know everyone's going to
be nice to me here. You know,there's no no no drama at a YC,
none. And you know, I learnedthat from her, so I was never
unsure about Shaw. I don't know,but Tommy Joyce had passed away
before I started going to mystore. Now, I know Richard and

(31:51):
Mary very well, and they've toldme, you know, about the vibe and
some of the issues and and richand Mary are the same. They're
they're my main teachers now,and Ty, and they also model this
incredible kindness and respectand like gentle but but solid
instruction. And they're justso, they're so equanimous, you

(32:15):
know, yes, so that's what Ireally, you know, that's what
Liam and I tried to make happenfor our people, and we do a
pretty good job. But it's themtoo. You know, they're very
mature, that

Todd McLaughlin (33:12):
is. So I love hearing this. I'm curious, what
is the word on the street, fromyour angle, about where the
evolution will track in relationto practice in Mysore is
Saraswathi noticing an evengreater increase of numbers of
people coming to practice withher since has passed away, or

(33:37):
little bit that people areplanning to still go to Mysore
this coming season and justeverybody get together and
practice and see how it unfolds.
What are you picking up on? It'svery

Unknown (33:47):
confusing. So I don't know if you know I'm sure you
know this, but Sriracha passedaway here in Charlottesville,
like, Yes, he was the Universityof Virginia, and John Bolton are
down the road. We were Liam andI were not ourselves
participating, because we're nothis students, and so we couldn't
gain I mean, you know, you hadto be a student to be there. But

(34:07):
the whole community was there,and we know a lot of those
people, and you know, we're asmall family. We're like, I feel
like we and Charette studentsare like, first cousins, you
know. So they were here. Andwhen it happened, it was
probably the biggest shock of mylife. Actually, it was real,
tremendously disturbing. AndCharlottesville was flooded with
people, and you know, a lot ofthem are good friends of mine,

(34:29):
and I hung out with them and wetalked, and there was a lot of
who knows what's going to happennow, kind of going on, and a lot
of grief. I then went and sawSaraswati Ji this past winter,
and sat down with her and justkind of talk through what
happened, you know, becauseshe's like, you were there. Tell
me, you know, what did you see?
Because she was, you know, inIndia, she couldn't travel, and

(34:50):
it, i the whole thing was justreally fractured. While I was
there, I talked to Lakshmi, youknow, who's the chanting
teacher, and he, he told me thatthe intention was for Shruti and
Lakshmi Shah and Usha to kindof, you know, marshal their
forces and continue to run theShala. There were a lot of shots

(35:13):
students who had signed up forthat season, who were there last
winter, and they were, kind of,there. Was almost like a
tribute, you know, it's likethey were Shruti was there just
sitting dignified on the stage,kind of holding court. People
were doing their practice. Sure,he's not really a teacher, you
know, she's, I mean, she's beenvery important, but not as a as

(35:34):
a teacher. And some of theteachers were there, some of the
assistants, it was very freefreestyle. Well, and then, yeah,
there were people who receivedsort of, what would you call
them, post mortem, mortem, orwhatever, certifications and
authorizations, because thefamily felt like these were
coming, and they didn't wantthese students to feel robbed.

(35:56):
And I know there's been all thisbrouhaha, and in my mind, a
complete lack of generosity andtolerance. But, you know, that's
just where I'm coming from, but,but I think the intention,
certainly on the part of Lakshmiand Usha and Shruti is to
maintain something now, whetherShruti wants to become the

(36:16):
holder of a lineage, here's thething, the lineage is being held
firmly by Saraswati. And infact, there's been this
misunderstanding that Gurujileft the lineage to Sharad. He
actually left the lineage toboth of them, and all the
property to Saraswati, which wasinteresting, like he left her

(36:37):
the actual physical shallow soit was clearly his intention
that they continue to bothteach. And when I started at
KPJ, there was one Shala, twoteachers, you know, you'd go to
the website of the KPJ, Shala,and there was Saraswati and
Sharat, and you chose a teacher.

(36:58):
And we all, you probablyremember we all chanted
together. Well, maybe this wasafter, after your time, but we
all chanted together. We allstudied together. We we didn't,
we didn't do our leads together,or my sort of together, but we
used the big, shallow together.
We were one community. And whenSara Swati decided that she
wanted to start authorizingstudents that worked with her so
that somebody like me, forinstance, could be authorized, I

(37:20):
never did this. BTW, I justdidn't want to participate in
the whole system. I mean, notthat I was shunning people. I
was just like, Yeah, I'm justnot going to go there. And I
told her, I said, Sorry, Swati,I'm not going to get authorized.
Don't take it personally. She'slike, Oh, no, it's fine. But
anyway, when she started doingit, it created a rift, kind of
an authority rift between herand Charette, and this rift
rippled through the wholecommunity. So suddenly there

(37:43):
were two shalas, and it was sad,it was heartbreaking. So now I
think that's where we are.
Sarswati, Shala is thriving. Imean, I was there this past
winter. It's the biggest Shalashe's ever had. You know, for
her, it was huge. Yeah, she'slike, 84 years old, you know?
Wow, I know. And, and shamila,her daughter, is there every

(38:07):
day. Sharmila is, you know,there kind of shamila is holding
the it's like the queen and thePrime Minister. You know, so
much. He's the queen. She's thePrime Minister. But SARS wants
teaching. She's like on thefloor, holding people's feet up,
doing the whole, I mean, Gurujitaught till he was in his 90s,
you know, yes, yes. So she's andit frustrates. I'm sorry, I'm

(38:30):
getting a little but it, it isvery exasperating to me when
people say what's going tohappen to the lineage? And I'm
like, nothing. The lineage isjust fine. In terms of the
patabi joyous family lineage,Saraswati is, you know, up on
her feet everyday teaching. And

Todd McLaughlin (38:50):
maybe, maybe the lineage part is where people
are getting the most hung up onis this sort of stringent
attitude about getting a newpose and or getting
authorization or certification,so if, if we were to remove, and
I'm not saying I'm a player inthis sort of decision, but I

(39:11):
mean just from a from a teacherperspective, from seeing what,
how it works, with a long termexperience with students, and
how bodies do change, and howthe practice does need to be
modified. If the whole kind ofremoval, of giving poses as
like, Okay, now you've earnedit. You've bent far enough this
way, we're gonna let you go bendfar enough the other way that

(39:33):
maybe then there would be lesspressure on it. I'm sure it's
way more dynamic than just that.
I'm sure there's a whole powerthing that happens. You know,

Unknown (39:43):
that's part of the power dynamic Todd, you know. So
way back in 20, I don't know, 13or 14, I started working very
closely with Richard and Mary,and I noticed they didn't use
that language ever, and theydidn't take that approach ever.
And if I wanted to learnsomething new, they would
suggest it to me, like, Hey,would you like to try this? Or

(40:06):
try it this way? Or I would say,Hey, will you teach me this? And
we have a little conversation.
And they were basicallyfollowing my lead. They were
saying, Sure, if you want to tryit, we'll try it. And Ty also
had worked with Richard Mary,and he's like, giving Post says,
I can't give something I don'town, you know, and I felt like
this is crazy language, and sowe've never, we my husband and I
and our students and our wholeprogram, you know, we've got,

(40:30):
we've got a deep bench in termsof our teachers, never, ever,
ever, ever use that language.
And sometimes we have peoplecome in from other shallows,
say. Okay, am I allowed to,like, if it's a Friday, am I
allowed to practice? And, like,we don't use the word allowed.
I'm like, you're allowed to dowhatever you want, as long as

(40:52):
you're not going to hurtsomebody or hurt yourself. You
know, like, you're not allowedto fall out of a headstand in my
Charlotte, if you think youmight fall take a wall. But
that's the only rule, and you'renot allowed to be nasty, and
that's kind of the end of it.
And yeah, it really is. Whatyou're talking about is a it's
sort of a symptom of a largerdisease. And I personally think

(41:13):
that the problem is not with theteachers and the lineage. I
think the problem is with us. Wewant someone else to take
responsibility for our owngrowth and development and for
the decisions that we make likewe don't want to own it, you
know? And it's really greatpoint. Carol, yeah, I had to

(41:35):
decide to teach myself thirdseries, because there was no one
around who could teach me. So Ihad two or three other students.
We were all in the same place,or we were like, third series
curious. So we decided, okay,we're going to collaborate on
this. And that's what we did.
The three or four of us. Wehelped each other out, we
troubleshooted with each other.
We, you know, we jump up, and wejust had this kind of it was

(41:57):
very joyful, you know, and butit felt so rich. And I was like,
Well, if we hadn't decided tojust take responsibility for
this, who am I going to go towho's going to teach me
advanced, I don't know, youknow, like, there aren't,
there's nobody within a rockstore of here, you know what I
mean? So that kind of and, youknow, the Ashtanga police would

(42:22):
like turn on their sirens andcome get me, but fortunately, we
don't. We don't really deal withthat. And

Todd McLaughlin (42:31):
you know, I hear you, I will. First of all,
I'm very excited to connect withyou, because I feel like we
align very similar, similarly inrelation to the statement that
you made to Saraswati of justlike, Look, I'm not interested
in becoming authorized, so Ihope that you're not offended,
but I just have no drive ordesire. I have a very similar

(42:54):
sort of feeling, and I lovemeeting other people like you
that are really focused on justthe actual practice of it, and
removing a lot of thehierarchical structure with the
intent of increasing more peaceand freedom for those that are
around us, right? So, I mean,that is an amazing thing. I

(43:15):
think that I'm super grateful tobe in this place where we are
not beholden to that. I dounderstand that there, there's
value for folks that are in thatsort of stream, like I get that
I also enjoy hearing, or I'mfascinated by the fact that you
made mention that there was alittle bit of an Ashtanga police

(43:38):
community right down the roadfrom you. And I'm just curious
if you can talk a little bitabout why you might. I don't
know how you feel about this. Ican guess where you're going to
go with this, but how we canbenefit with symbiosis within
our community versus fracturing,why it's really

Unknown (43:57):
important as a certified teacher, yeah, with
Sharat, he he has my deeprespect. He's, he's worked
through, you know, a terriblemotorcycle crash. He's, he's, I
mean, he's dealt with a lot, andhe's, his practice is, like,
devoted, and his heart is big,and, you know, he really cares
about what he's doing. And hereally, he really believes in

(44:21):
this traditional, you know,system and the way it works. And
for some people, that worksreally well. I have had some
people come to me out of thatprogram and say, like, I've been
stuck on this post for like, ayear, and I'm never going to
catch my heels and what, youknow, and like, I want to keep

(44:42):
moving. And so will you let mekeep moving? And I'm like, sure.
Like, sure we'll move, you know.
So I think for some people, it'ssuffocating to be in that, in
that container, but they also,because they respect the, you
know, the integrity of thattradition, they don't want to be
nasty about it. And I don't feellike iconoclast. I just know

(45:02):
that for me, the priority is sofar beyond Asana, like Asana is
a means to an end, and when youstart to lock down the asana,
people get locked down in a lotof different ways, you know. And
so what we're trying to do isuse movement and and my
emphasis, because I'm Richard'sstudent and Thailand room

(45:26):
student, is the subtle body andso we I believe there can be
perfect, subtle body alignmentpatterns on all kinds of body
shapes, you know, like, forinstance, someone can get this.
Subtle body the subtle bodyexperience of an art of bada
Padmasana pose without actuallytaking Padmasana, because their

(45:50):
knees are going to be destroyed,but they can still find subtle
body alignment, and it's notless than and it's not modified,
and it's not so for me, likepaying attention to subtle body
alignment is way more powerfulthan physical body alignment,
and part of the freedom of beingout of the Ashtanga police

(46:14):
constraints is that you reallycan watch a student's subtle
body, You know, light up andyou're not preoccupied with,
where's the foot, or are theycatching or, you know, all the
things, all the little, all theexternal, well said horns, you
know, and then, and then, youknow, students start to feel

(46:35):
crap about themselves. Andwhenever that happens, we're
doing something wrong. I think,I mean, I just don't think
there's any benefit to that atall. You know, we want students
to walk out of the room feelinglighter than they came in, not
and as a student, I had timeswhen I was burdened with
frustration, anger, resentment,confusion, all the things. And

(46:56):
I'm like, why am I coming toyoga to feel like this? Like,
me, yeah, I gotta work and feellike that, you know, just for us
again, Mary, Mary and Richard,dear, dear friends and just like
kind of models, and also TyLandrum and Shan, these are dear
friends of mine, but they alsokind of model a life that, you

(47:17):
know, I want to emulate when indoubt, be nice, you know, just
be nice. So if we do somethingand kindness is not present,
then we're, I don't think we'redoing it right. And so when you
get into like police activities,a lot of times, force takes over
and kindness disappears, youknow.

Todd McLaughlin (47:41):
Well, great point. We could look at that on
different levels across theglobe right now, right and see
of what you're talking outsideof the yogic system. It probably
I'm, you know, I don't want toassume that everybody listening
to our conversation is totallyup to speed with the dynamics of
Ashtanga, but I feel likeeverything we spoke of will give
a really good idea, probably, ifsomebody is brand spanking new

(48:04):
to yoga, the way I was when Ifirst started, even the concept
of a yoga police would be veryodd to me. It would make me feel
like, Wait, what are you eventalking about? I can't even wrap
my head around that. But

Unknown (48:17):
ever seen the cartoon Todd? There's this old cartoon.
I don't know where it came from,but my friend Zoe Ward stuck it
up in our Shala, and it hasthese three kind of limber
people sitting in jail. And oneguy's like, what are you in for?
And one of the women goes, Oh, Idid left leg first, and Johnny
shasana. And then the otherperson said, I practiced on a

(48:37):
Friday, you know? And if you'rein Ashanti, you know exactly
what they're talking about, yes,but if you're not, you're like,
What? What? So that cultmentality is the kind of, it's
like the underbelly of theAshtanga system. And it's not
pretty. It's not, you know, andit's something that we should be

(48:58):
scared of, you know, this kindof Ashtanga cult, it's different
than having like, you know, joyand memes, but we work really
hard when new students come into cut the terminology, to make
them feel like they can belongand not like we're a weirdo
cult. The other thing, and thisis me being an astrologer, okay,
I'm going to just put on thathat for a second. Um, the kind

(49:21):
of astrology I practice iscalled evolutionary astrology,
and it's very keyed into karma.
Stephen Forrest, who's amagnificent astrologer, he came
up with a system, and it syncsbeautifully with yoga
philosophy. I believe verystrongly that the karma ripened
in Ashtanga Yoga when Sharatleft his body, that this was a

(49:42):
profound ripening of karma. Andyou know, when karma ripens
things, the fruit falls off thevine, like in the try and
become, you know, like let thecucumber fall off the vine, ripe
and ready. And when he passedaway, this was a fantastic
opportunity for Ashtanga to lookat the karma and embrace the

(50:06):
change and and sort of surrendersome of these super heavy
samskaras we've been carryingaround with us for at least A
decade, maybe longer. And somepeople are, you know, some, some
of our community really is sortof saying, okay, you know, this

(50:27):
karmic wave has broken, and sonow what you know, and they're
looking out. And then somepeople are scared and freaked
out and in grief and panicking.
Yeah, and they're kind ofgrasping onto the straws of the
old karma, you know, and, and Ijust think this is a remarkable

(50:52):
opportunity for our globalcommunity to be better, you
know, than we were. Yes, and Idon't know if we will,

Todd McLaughlin (51:01):
yeah. Well, good point. Well, some of us
will and some won't, and

Unknown (51:05):
we have to keep loving each other because, you know,
we're going through this ishugely traumatic, but it's also
an enormous possibility for justlooking, for kind of calming
down for a moment, you know, andlike looking and saying, Okay,

(51:25):
this karma has finished. Youknow, shiraji Karma is finished.
Now, where does that leave usand and what do we mindfully
with our heart, want to do now?
You know, because when, whengurus leave their bodies. You
see this all the time.
Communities either snap intohyper conservatism, or they

(51:49):
start to dissolve, like amandala, you know, like a like a
Tibetan mandala, where theybuild these sand mandalas, and
then they don't cling to them.
They gather up the sand and theyput it in a river. And here's
the thing, Todd, you know this,and I know this, the Ashtanga
system is has spilled, thespilled the banks of the Joyce
family, like it has been in thatriver for so long, dispersing

(52:14):
itself, and that's just going tohappen, like, there's no one
that can, like, get those grainsof sand back and put them in a
neat little pile, you know. Sowe're just here. We are, you and
I are going to be yoga no matterwhat happens out there and the
you know. And it's beautiful,really. It's not a sign of

(52:35):
things being out of control.
It's a sign of the the profoundblessing of this and how it's
burst the bounds of the lineage,you know, yeah, and I think this
is wonderful, just for me.

Todd McLaughlin (52:52):
I hear, yeah, I love the way that you use that
analogy. That's beautiful. I andit is really amazing to give
appreciation to the entirefamily. It's fascinating how so
much attention was placed on oneperson at a time, and then
different degrees of energyplace. But I think that now,

(53:12):
like you said, in terms of thedispersal of the information and
the amount of people that arenow practicing Ashtanga Yoga and
kind of holding it together intheir own way, it is absolutely
amazing, right?

Unknown (53:25):
Saraswati has been teaching Ashtanga Yoga since she
was 23 years old, and she's 84and you can do the math longer
than any living person on theplanet by a long shot. And
Sharat wasn't even born when shewas certified by Krishnamacharya
himself to teach yoga. So again,she's one of the only, she's the

(53:47):
only person in our lineage whowas certified by
Krishnamacharya. And I mean,she's that she actually gave me
permission this past winter towrite her biography. So I'm, I'm
probably doing, yeah, I'mprobably doing that in the next
couple of years, I need, we gota lot of material to get
together. And her daughter,Sharmila, is would like to She

(54:11):
has amazing photos of this,these generations of yogis and
this light. I mean, this familyhas devoted their entire life
and well being to us, you know,to Western non caste. We're very
serious Brahmins, and they teachus. And we're like nothing. We
don't even have a cast, youknow. So there's this incredible

(54:31):
generosity. And, you know, Ifeel like Saraswati has been
overlooked in the lineage,probably because she's a woman,
you know. And I have a lot Iwant to say about that, and her
daughter, Sharmila, again, as awoman, I

Todd McLaughlin (54:45):
want to hear what you have to say about that.
Because one thing I've noticedrecently in relation to Tantra
Yoga, the more I've beenstudying in and then when I
recently had a chance to speakwith a very scholarly female who
is a tantric, tantric yogi,Yogini. She it was so great to

(55:10):
hear it from a woman'sperspective, and how fascinating
that here in the tantric worldof the wisdom goddesses, or the
worship of a goddess, thatdoesn't it make sense that a
woman would be holding downteaching in a way where there'd
be this nice, balanced approachwithout the kind of
extracurricular, male, dominantsex energy that sometimes comes

(55:30):
with it. It just seemed to makebig sense that women would be
really good at teaching that. SoI just think it's fascinating
that there's still that powerstruggle. Of course, there's
still the power strugglebecause. Is the male female
dynamic. I mean, we could go onand on, but I'd love to hear a
little bit about how and why youthink it's the time, why it's

(55:50):
now time for for a female womanto be the lineage holder?

Unknown (55:57):
Yeah. I mean, here's the truth of it. Is that? Okay?
So this is just me. I I believethis is true, and I don't have,
like, corroborating evidence,except many conversations that
I've had with my teacher, withSaraswati, but um, when Guruji,

(56:19):
you know, he had two sons and adaughter, one of his sons passed
away. Young. One of his sons,Manju, decided he really wanted
to live in the West. After theirfirst trip to India, Manju said,
My soul belongs in the West, andI'm not coming back to India.
And he pretty much that's whathe did. And that left Saraswati

(56:41):
at home with Guruji, and becauseshe was a woman, she was given
jobs like taking care of him,making sure he was fed, cooking,
cleaning for the students aswell. She teach them how to
cook. You probably saw her in akind of diminutive role, like an
assistant role. And a lot ofpeople don't know this. But not

(57:04):
only was Saraswati one of thefirst people, the one of the
only people in the Ashanti age,and one of the first people
period woman to be certified bykrishnacharya, but she was the
first woman in India Todd toteach men yoga. And when she
decided to do that, her fatherthrough a complete fit. He was
like, Absolutely not. And shesaid, Guruji, if you can teach

(57:28):
men, I can teach women, end ofconversation. And so he let her
initially, only on their tripsin the West, she could teach,
you know, she could assist. Butthat was different be a teacher.
And then when they came home,she's like, I need to make a
living. So she started going totemples. And at first she just

(57:49):
taught women, and then some menwere trickling in. And it was a,
I mean, it was so avant gardeTodd. It was like a, it was like
a cultural revolution, a onewoman cultural revolution for
her to just say, I'm going toteach men. And it was
embarrassing, you know, it was abig deal, and she did it, and
she just kept doing it, andshe's continued to do it. And I

(58:12):
get kind of blown away by thedegree to which many of many
ashtanga yoga students don'tunderstand her critical position
in the lineage, you know, notjust as Charlotte's mother, but
also she made him. I mean, whentrout was 19, he wanted to be an
engineer, and she said, Nope,get in there. You're going to

(58:33):
help your granddad. Like, shekind of took him in hand, and if
she hadn't, like, pulled the momcard, Charlotte would have gone
on and then an engineer. And sheso if, if she had been Manju the
sun, the lineage would haveclearly passed through her to
Sharat, and that would have beenwhat everybody expected. And

(58:54):
they would have continued towork together like they were.
And then, when Manju passedaway, or retired, charrette,
would become a lineage holder,but because Saraswati was a
woman, it like the kind ofcommunity consensus was that it
skipped her and went to him, andit was very clear this is never

(59:18):
guru's intention. And so I get Iget frustrated because there's
all this talk of parampara,like, it just went to him, and
I'm like, Are you kidding me?
Like, clearly, like, she ownsthe Shala, she owns the
property. She's like, and, andso I think now it's interesting,
right? Because there is no malelineage holder. I mean, I guess

(59:38):
shamba, but you know, he he'snot really a yoga. He has other
interests. He's not really ayoga.

Todd McLaughlin (59:48):
How come? How come? Not Manju?

Unknown (59:51):
Because Manju is doing his own thing, you know, he
chose, and he's teaching us,yeah, he chose, a long time ago,
chose to step out and be in hisstand in his own shoes, and he
and Sarswati are very close.
They're there. They have a deep,loving sibling relationship. But

Todd McLaughlin (01:00:12):
ask you your thoughts on that, yeah,

Unknown (01:00:13):
because he chose, you know, and, and, but I mean, he's
still, of course, he's holding alineage. But the thing, and then
you go, what the heck is thelineage? You're holding? Like
teaches this yoga, little grainsof sand floating in the river,
or holding a lineage and and Imean that to me, that okay, I
talked about the karmic wavebreaking. Here's what I think

(01:00:36):
the opportunity we have as acommunity now karmically, is to
reevaluate. Evaluate whatlineage means and to be like,
lineage is not authority,lineage is not hierarchy.
Lineage is not blood. You know,lineages is this spirit of of

(01:00:57):
teaching and this kind ofbeautiful, elegant structure
that needs to keep changing, youknow. And God bless him. The
last thing shiraji Did in thisworld was active series, you
know. And the problem is reallythat active series, Sara Swati

(01:01:17):
response was, why we don't needthis. We can do all these things
like she already teachesactivists,

Todd McLaughlin (01:01:24):
already doing that. It's already been it's
everybody who's outside. Butaren't you doing it? Like

Unknown (01:01:30):
we're all doing it, we're going huh? He must have
been spying on us for the last10 years, because this is what
we do, you know. But, but thefact that he shiraji and his own
kind of an intention, said,Okay, I'm going to make this,
like, official, because I knowthat a lot of people in my

(01:01:50):
community are really ruleoriented people, and if there's
not a new rule, they won't doit. You know, he understood his
people, yeah, yeah. And he'slike, okay, yeah, here's the new
here's the new rules. And, youknow, the University of Virginia
is going to teach active series,and, like, people are teaching
it, and I'm laughing and going,Wow, we were really ahead of the
ball on that one. You know, weare in active series. We've

(01:02:14):
already this is what we do, youknow. So she's a little
exasperated with the wholething, understandably, because
she was kind of, yeah, the pointis, now we can, I think we can
realize what lineage reallymeans, and it does not mean
authority, and it does not meanheredity, you know, and it's not

(01:02:34):
based on DNA. And hopefully theparts of the lineage that are
going to survive whateverhappens next, are going to be
the parts that thetransformative, profound you

(01:02:55):
know, the power of Using shadesto heal the subtle body. Power
of using rhythmic breathing to,like, wake up the nervous
system. All these things, thesekind of intangible things, you
know, that Ashtanga Yogaprovides and that the rest of it

(01:03:18):
will just fall away. You know,it's like when a when a bird
comes out of its egg. If theshell clings, the bird can't go
anywhere, you know. So I thinkAshtanga is a bird with its
wings spread. We're out thereand we're doing our thing, you
and I, and you know, hundreds ofother people and their little
shallows, like we're doing thisthing, and we're not waiting on

(01:03:41):
someone to give us poses,

Todd McLaughlin (01:03:45):
yeah, Carolyn, I hear ya. I'm with you. Well. I
mean, thank you for just beingopen and honest, and I really
appreciate you not being fearfulof speaking your mind, and
sometimes, sometimes nothing tolose. A little scared, yeah,
maybe we could have nothing tolose, right? I mean, it's a

(01:04:05):
miracle every day that we canstill just show up and have a
space for our folks to show upand practice and I mean, that is
really something special. I

Unknown (01:04:14):
look I have people who are way more courageous. My
friend Ty Landrum is incrediblycourageous. You know, he came to
me when he first started withBlack Lotus, and he said, Am I
really going to do this? Like,are people going to hate me? And
he's like, but this is what'srising up in me. And I'm like,
if Ashtanga is a healthy parent,it's going to have babies, for
God's sake. Like, go make ababy, you know, and it's a

(01:04:35):
beautiful child. So I just thinkthere are lots of people. Eddie,
okay, so Eddie and I werehanging out a lot during the
funeral. You know the when hecame here for chards Memorial,
and we talked for a long time.
And, you know, it's interesting,Eddie felt the karmic wave crash
and and then he took thefreedom. And now look at what

(01:04:58):
Eddie's doing, like he's yoga.
Sangha, this new thing that he'sdoing has risen up out of him,
and it's a child of AshtangaYoga. You know, it's like a it's
like an offspring, and it'sbeautiful, and he has the
courage to do this, and he's notgoing, Yeah, throw nobody's

(01:05:19):
throwing away these people, I'mnot throwing away Ashtanga.
They're just saying. Ashtangahas has given birth to something
in me, and I want to share itwith people. And it's so
awesome, you know? So I hopethere will be more and more
people who have the courage toshare the children of this
lineage with the world.

Todd McLaughlin (01:05:40):
You know, the.
That is so well spoken, Carolyn,that I don't feel like we I need
to ask you any more questions,although I really want to
continue to continue our relate,our friendship or getting to
know each other, but that isamazing. I feel like you spoke a
powerful message, and I couldn'tagree more with everything that

(01:06:01):
you're bringing to the tablehere. I did want to prior to our
conversation, just have you talka little though about your book.
Can you explain what yourintention was or is behind the
book that you wrote, the titleand what the premise of it is?

Unknown (01:06:21):
Yeah, I'll be quick. So it's called practicing the Yoga
Sutras, which my 30 year old soncame up with as a title. But
part of what we do at AYC isevery and this is, again, Sara
spotty taught me this, becausewhen I started with her, this is
what we did. We sit on Sundaymornings, and we call it yoga
church. It's kind of a joke,because, you know, we're in the

(01:06:41):
Deep South, and we chant theYoga Sutras and we chant
bhajans. My chant teacher,Lakshmi, taught me a lot, but
actually, Dr Jayashree, I workedwith her for a very long time. A
lot of us have learned how tochant from Jayashree. So we
chant her version of the YogaSutras, and then we chant, you

(01:07:02):
know, the Ganesha bhajans andthe and the guru rash to come
and all those things together.
And then we have been studying.
We just go through the sutraslike a little Bible study, but
it's a sutra study, and we'vebeen doing this for 15 years,
and we're finally in book four.
Took that long so through thisprocess of chanting, talking,
studying, sharing ourexperiences. It's been so rich a

(01:07:27):
book rose up. What I realizedwas that the Yoga Sutras, there
are tons of yoga sutra books,and they're amazing. But what
was lacking was seeing the YogaSutras not as a philosophical
system, but as a practicemanual. And so what I wanted to
do was I wanted to write a bookthat invited people to

(01:07:48):
personalize, like deeplypersonalize, the sutras, to
actually reflect individually.
So the book itself, I have asutra and the translation and a
commentary, and then a questionand a little bubble inside the
book. It's like a journal to towrite your reflections on the

(01:08:10):
bubble, and then you just keepgoing. And it goes through all
four books, every single sutra.
So it doesn't like some of mythe people I've have gotten back
to me on it are like, Oh mygosh, you do books three and
four. I'm like, Yeah, I know.
Because usually commentaries oneand two and then three four, you
know, we're gonna give it allequal, you know. And it's been

(01:08:31):
wonderful because it's given mea chance to like, share in a
book form. My background is inacademics, and I like to write,
you know. So to share in a bookform, the the kind of wealth of
practical like embodiedknowledge in the Yoga Sutras,
not just this, but like, how tohow to take the sutras and and

(01:08:54):
like, live in them, like inhabitthem, and how to let them
basically repattern the mind ina way that creates very real,
tangible impact in a life. Andit was just super fun to write.
And so now, you know, I I go toteacher trainings and do little

(01:09:15):
sutras workshops, and I do themat the ashram, at yoga bill. And
people I get, I still get reallysweet letters. The book's been
out for a little over a year,and people are still sending me
emails saying, Yeah, this isreally hard at first, because
you were asking me to be reallyhonest every single time. And I
got kind of, you know, I gotkind of, like, freaked out by
that. But then when I just said,Okay, I'm because it's all self

(01:09:38):
reflection, you know, I'm goingto be honest. And I think that
that's the difference. It is notan academic or an intellectual
book, although, you know, I read10 intellectual books to prepare
it. It's really designed to be avery deep, personal kind of
existential encounter with thetext.

Todd McLaughlin (01:09:58):
Wow, very cool.
Well, I'm going to get a copyand work through it. And yeah,
I'll, I'll reach back out to youwith some feedback. So cool. And
for everyone listening, the thelink is in the description, they
can go to your website, get itfrom

Unknown (01:10:13):
Amazon.

Todd McLaughlin (01:10:14):
Takes a few days. Okay, cool. Directly

Unknown (01:10:18):
from the publisher.
Either way, you can come see mein Charlottesville and I'll hand
you one. Oh,

Todd McLaughlin (01:10:23):
man, I would love to come visit next time I
make my way up into Virginia. Ihave family over in Tennessee,
which isn't too far away, soI'll definitely make a point

Unknown (01:10:34):
that's cool, yeah, to have you. We have a lot of we
call it the global, you know,there's a global. Ashtanga
diaspora. And they're peoplewho, like, don't have a shallow
where they live, and so they'llpass by and pop in and go, Oh,
look, people I can practicewith. You know, we're kind of
like the Catholic Church Todd,you know, you show up at any

(01:10:55):
shallow anywhere, and they'redoing the same thing. It's, it's
so comforting, I

Todd McLaughlin (01:11:01):
hear you that is a fascinating component of
ritual, right? When there's aritual and I agree, well,

Unknown (01:11:08):
these are my people. I found them, right? Yeah. Well,
it's great to meet you, Todd, tospend some time together, like
in person. Sometime,

Todd McLaughlin (01:11:18):
I agree.
Everyone's had so many nicethings to say about you that had
practiced with come down andvisited here. So I really
appreciate the introduction thatwas made for us by Tim Renick.
Actually was the one who came inand you ever interviewed Carol
Ann and so, yeah, he's reallysweet. So thank you so much.

Unknown (01:11:35):
And he's coming, Ty's doing a workshop here in
November, and Tim's going tocome, so I'm looking forward to
that. That's

Todd McLaughlin (01:11:40):
cool. And Tim was here, he was practicing the
Black Lotus sequence. And so itwas fun to watch. Cool yeah,
really very Yeah. A nicevinyasa. Yes, yes.

Unknown (01:11:51):
So intelligent, so well designed. And it has this
beautiful balance betweenforward bending and backward
bending, even in the firstseries, which I really
appreciate. So it's beautiful,

Todd McLaughlin (01:12:04):
yeah, I think there's room for everything,
right, yeah. And it's prettycool too, to have somebody come
in and practice the sequencethat is. Ashtanga, like, Yeah,
different. And have everybody

Unknown (01:12:16):
patterning really strongly and good on you for
letting them do that. Go. Todd,well, no, seriously, some people
would be like, What are youdoing? Get out of here.

Todd McLaughlin (01:12:28):
Yeah. I mean, life is way better when you make
room for variation. Yeah, that's

Unknown (01:12:33):
awesome. Well, I'm glad. Well, I'll get down there
at some point, and you've gotsuch a pretty space, I can see
by looking at it

Todd McLaughlin (01:12:39):
behind. Well, thank you, Carolyn, thank you. I
know right,

Unknown (01:12:45):
yeah. Need to get a big Lakshmi Morty and stick it up
there and do some pushes to it,

Todd McLaughlin (01:12:51):
for sure, for sure. Oh my gosh. Well, thank
you so much. Carolyn, I have afeeling we're going to bump into
each other in person here. Allright.

Unknown (01:12:59):
Thank you so much.
Thank you. Bye. Bye

Todd McLaughlin (01:13:04):
native, yoga Todd cast is produced by myself.
The theme music is dreamed up byBryce Allen. If you like this
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(01:13:25):
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Unknown (01:14:00):
you.