Edward Clark & Laurie A. Greene ~ The Future of Yoga: Asana, Vinyasa & Emotional Depth

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Todd McLaughlin (00:33):
Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy
you are here. My goal with thischannel is to bring
inspirational speakers to themic in the field of yoga,
massage, bodywork and beyond.
Follow us at @nativeyoga andcheck us out at
nativeyogacenter.com. All right,let's begin.

(01:04):
Welcome back to Native YogaToddcast. I'm your host, Todd
McLaughlin, and today we arediving deep into the body, not
just as muscle and bone, but asa living doorway into
consciousness, imagination andmeaning. My guests are Edward
Clark. He's the founder andartistic director of the
groundbreaking Tripsichore yogatheater and Laurie A. Greene,

(01:29):
anthropologist, professor andlongtime yoga teacher. Together,
they've written a powerful newbook called Yoga and the Body,
The Future of Modern Yoga inStudio and Beyond in it, they
challenge us to see yogapractices as more than shapes or
sequences. They explore howemotion, beauty and imagination

(01:50):
intersect with the body, and howyoga can evolve as a cultural
force in the years ahead. Today,we'll talk about what it really
means to quote mind the body,how emotions like anger and
grief can become energy andpractice, why myths and
esthetics still matter, and whatthe future of yoga might look
beyond credentials and trends.
So whether you're a seasonedpractitioner, a curious

(02:13):
beginner, or just someoneinterested in how the body
shapes our sense of self, thisis going to be a conversation
that stretches your mind as muchas your muscles. Let's go ahead
and get started. I'm so happy tohave this opportunity to
interview and speak and meetwith Edward Clark and Laurie
Greene. How are you both feelingtoday? And thank you so much for

(02:33):
being coming on the show.

Unknown (02:38):
Feeling great. Thank you for having us.

Todd, thank you,

Unknown (02:41):
Edward, thank you, lovely. Welcome Todd. It's
wonderful to be here. We're notnervous about doing this at all.
We're completely

good. You have nothing to be nervous about,
because your book yoga and thebody, the future of modern yoga
in the studio and beyond is anincredible representation of
what happens when two yogapractitioners come together with
deep thoughts and and areinterested in seeing a positive
future for yoga. I enjoyed thisbook. I'm still working on it,

(03:13):
but I've gotten a long waythrough it is amazing. I'm
actually going a little slowbecause it's causing me to think
a lot, which I love. Socongratulations on such an
accomplishment. Laurie, itworked. It worked. You got not
just a pretty cover, you guysgot some gears spinning in my in
my brain. So that's

Unknown (03:34):
exactly what we want to have happen. You know, we just
want, we want to have. Onereason we wrote this book,
actually, is that we were sortof bemoaning how, like sort of
us, Old Guard people, used tosit around and just have these
really deep conversations aboutyoga and that I never get to do
that anymore, you know. And, andI'm hoping that, you know, the

(03:55):
new generation of yogis aregoing to start to have these
more, you know, interrogating,you know, deeper conversations
about the things that they'vebeen told and so that they can
really figure out the truth ofwhat's happening today. With the
practice,I think we looked at the
contemporary situation and feltthat it was diminished in a few

(04:16):
ways, and we were, wanted tohave a look at maybe why that
was, but not, not to paint ableak picture, but to actually
go there's a lot of possibilityhere. What are, how do we
construe the potential of yogastill in a way that builds on
what's going on now? So checkingout or questioning,

(04:41):
interrogating some of the majorthemes of yoga and seeing, well,
is this right, and where mightit lead? So you know, for
instance, every website of everystudio has to mention community.
Uh, in a way. And yes, communitycan be a good thing. And there

(05:02):
are also group think addedattributes to community that can
perhaps limit how one practicestheir yoga and and constrains
them to a yoga, a practice thatonly occurs around these people.
For instance,

good point one of, one of the things I found
really thoughtful andfascinating to break into the
way that you guys did was yourdifferentiation of the word
asana and vinyasa in relation toif Asana is an idea of
renunciation, in the sense that,like yoga being practiced alone

(05:47):
and with the intent of, youknow, finding liberation through
a renunciatory practice, asopposed to vinyasa, of looking
at the world as a constantlychanging environment that
vinyasa Almost models. Let's gowith the flow of the changes. So
almost one style renouncing andone style going with the flow.

(06:08):
Can you guys talk a little bitabout how that idea came about,
and your understanding of thesevarious philosophical aspects of
yoga?

Unknown (06:16):
Well, it's interesting that there's such diametrically
opposed positions. And it'sclassical, classic, if not
classical. It's a classic yogathing that you know through its
vast history, you've got so manycontradictions in it, but one
is, I mean, the way we can doit, maybe oversimplifying

(06:39):
somewhat, is that Asana, in itsrenunciate sort of aims, goes
towards stillness and tries tofind within stillness a certain
foundational unity. And is, youknow, seeking in that, if you're
Samkhya, this purusha, pureconsciousness, and it's nothing

(07:02):
to do with the body material.
Prakriti cannot apprehendPurusha because they are
different categories of reality.
And so the body must bedispensed with. And then you so
you look inwardly, so you're notdistracted by the outer realm
which and then you've gotvinyasa, which is saying quite

(07:22):
the opposite, that the nature ofthe universe is that it's this
heraclesian kind of river thatis ever flowing, and you cannot
step into the same river twice.
It is just a constant change.
And that the idea then is invinyasa and its most extreme,

(07:42):
there would be no posture, thereis only transition. And so one
takes the both. I don't know,our definition of yoga that
we're so terribly pleased withis that yoga is the study of
self and the study of realityand how they mingle. And so
Asana attempts to understandreality by looking inwardly with

(08:08):
the assumption that what youwould discover at a foundational
level in the self, in this innerrealm, will be the same as what
reality is. And vinyasa goes theother way. It's that no
everything out there isconstantly changing. The nature
of self is its mutability, andthat one attempts to, in

(08:30):
mingling with reality, find somekind of congruence between the
changeability of self and thenature of what reality is. So
curiously, they do both try andunderstand self and reality, but
they do it, one expansively andone trying to, I don't know,
reduce itself to the ultimateecho grata, but you know, this

(08:52):
single point somewhere withinthat would be the same as what
the nature of the universe is,or the other way around.
I mean, it, it, it comes down toreally, how we think about the
body, you know, and that that'show Ed and I sort of got to
this. It's something, of course,that runs through the whole
book, and it's something that wetalk about a lot in both of our

(09:16):
books, but that, you know, howdo we, how do we see we're using
our body. These are bodypractices, whether we're doing
Asana or vinyasa, but theydefine the utility of the body
very differently, and theimportance of the body very
differently. So whereas inAsana, the body needs to be, as
Ed said, dispensed with that, wehave this body, but there's

(09:37):
different techniques to dothings with the body, so that it
becomes we lose it, and itbecomes insignificant. It steps
aside, so that we can get to themore important aspects which are
considered this, again, thisCartesian idea of the mind
being, being the most importantthing, and that's, that's where
our our self is, I guess,located in this mind even

(09:58):
something beyond. MindExactly. It's certainly not, not
in the material body. Butvinyasa really says, No, like
the body is the vehicle, and thebody is, you know what? That's
us. That is, that is, that iswho we are moving, moving for
space. So the body becomes thisimportant thing, having said
this, or the most importantthing, if you look at tantric

(10:22):
writings, I mean, the body is,you know, there's a lot of
contradiction in the tantricwritings, because, on the one
hand, they do ultimately want toget to Raja Yoga, you know, to
this losing of the body. Butthen they also say, like, you
need a body in order to do this,right. You can't even do this
without a body. And so if youhave a body and you aren't doing

(10:43):
it, what a waste. Or if you waittill you're so old that you
can't do this, what a waste, youknow. So we were really, you
know, looking to really get intothis, people thinking about the
utility of the body as aninstrument for enlightenment and
for the kind of ecstaticexperiences that we can have in
yoga, again, outside of the sortof utilitarian uses that it's

(11:06):
become for now, yeah? Like, justit, and that's great, you know,
health and fitness are great,absolutely, but that's what it's
become, you know. And the otherthings are sort of like, Yeah,
we talked about as nice, the wayhow people act nice, or do
charity work or are part of acommunity, you know, good

point. Well, that's why, that's why I'm
enjoying your book so much,because it is getting me to
think so much about theseaspects that maybe we've just
like, hurry over and not reallyappreciate. Are you both leaning
toward blending the beauty ofboth of these sort of philos
philosophies, or how are youkind of now that we've laid down

(11:47):
a little bit of the idea of theasana vinyasa approach, are,
where are you thinking orfeeling like your own personal
practice now is drawing from themost

Unknown (11:59):
I think Ed and I are different, so I'll let I'll let
you talk first. No, no, you gofirst.

I can contradict anything. Yeah, there
you go. It's a smart, brilliant,let me hear what you have to say
first. Yeah,

Unknown (12:12):
that's a lie. I think there's a difference between and
we both think this actually, butprobably differently. I think
that there's a differencebetween practicing technique and
doing yoga and and I think thatboth of them are useful for me.
So I find there's a lot to belearned about technique and

(12:37):
understanding the meaning makingin my body. You know what I'm
getting out of moving in in aStiller practice. That doesn't
mean I, honestly, I neverpractice a completely still
practice, and I never reallyhave, but I think that, you
know, when you're stillsometimes there's things you can
figure out in terms of techniquein the body. But if I'm actually

(13:00):
doing yoga, meaning I'm justgoing for it, and I want to get
that experience. I'm doingvinyasa, I'm moving, but I do
think there, there is utility inbeing still and again. For me,
that's about learning techniqueand how I'll get my body to that
place.

Good answer, Edward, what is your take on
that?

Unknown (13:23):
She said everything I was oh,

she should have gone first. Man,

Unknown (13:29):
yeah, no, I'm unabashedly vinyasa esque, but I
again. I mean, you can see themerits in in being able to hold
still, finding stillness, bothof which I mean Prosaically,

(13:50):
because I use the yoga outsideof the studio. It has a purpose
in that. I'm, you know, Ipresent these choreographed yoga
theater performances. So thereare times when you need both of
these things and but in my ownpractice, I'm inclined towards

(14:15):
vinyasa, and that's been myspecialty. But you know, it's
not to say I don't enjoy a bitof stillness. Yeah, I think I
don't know. They're both verydifficult, and I would say
neither of them, in contemporaryyoga has managed to produce a

(14:35):
saint yet, or an unequivocalcity. So probably one is well
advised to do both. But I dothink that the philosophic
aspects of vinyasa have beenvery under examined. And this
idea Laurie alludes to it oralluded to it a minute ago with

(14:58):
it. It's the flow that is. Soimportant to actually be in
flow, and we're using that termas mckayleigh would use it.
Check me up on the pronunciationit is to be in this experiential

(15:19):
state that is not reflective oranalytic. It's to actually be in
having an experience. And thisis where this mingling of self
and reality becomes particularlypoignant, where you really feel,
oh yes, this is, this is what'sgoing on in the universe right

(15:40):
now, and even as a finitecreature, I'm doing it. But as
soon as you think that, Oh, I'mreally doing it, of course,
you've killed the flow. And so,yeah, something you do in
theater is you have to becompletely engaged in what
you're doing. And it's that'swhat makes it appear authentic.

(16:03):
So what one tries to thencommunicate is what this flow
state feels like to an audience.
And you know, they sort ofthrough either mirror neurons or
just general empathy, go, oh,the sadness of what they're
doing. I feel sad too, eventhough I'm on the best date of
my life, and we just were out todinner and had a lot of fun,

(16:23):
something is communicated acrosstime and space. I think it's
Laurie's turn again.

Well, on that note, Edward, I'm so curious
because you found it or startedwhat you call trippscore.

Unknown (16:40):
Hold on, hold on. We needed to coach you on that one
beforehand. I'll just, we'll gothrough this really, you can cut
that part later or not. There'snine Muses in Greek mythology
who deal with like tragic dramaand things like that, but the
muse of dance is called Terpsickery. That's where the word

(17:04):
choreography comes from. So Terpsicori, you know, it's sort of
like catastrophe and Penelope,they do all the the last parts
of it, but we're trip sickeryBecause we're trippier than
terpier. And say, well,

thank you.
Yeah, thank

Unknown (17:19):
you. You know, it's amazing the things that people
make up about, what, what? Oh,try yes, they work. They do a
lot of work on triceps and core.
You know, it's what theirtechniques known for. It's like.
But anyway, so just wait. Thankyou for one in there, after all
these years of keeping itsecret, secret knowledge.

Well, can you share, can you tell me what one
of these performances lookslike, or is attempting to
achieve? What? What is some ofthe brains behind what you're
attempting to do? I'm curious.

Unknown (17:57):
Well, very much what I was just saying, we're trying to
make people have a profoundyogic experience watching it. So
if you watch an actor playing asad scene and you're in the
audience, presumably you'regoing to feel sad because the
energy that they're they'reconveying through their actions

(18:18):
or the words they're saying, itmakes a certain sadness happen.
Or if you watch a dancer take abig leap across the stage, you
know part of you thrills to dothat in some minuscule way while
you're sitting there, you'reexperiencing what they're
experiencing. And say, We'reovertly doing yoga, posture,

(18:40):
vinyasa, e stuff, and we'rebreathing it in a very specific
way. I mean, our whole showsare, are the choreograph,
choreography of the breath goesa certain way, so people will be
breathing with us and it, it's,it's hung on a narrative
structure. The show just had afinished a show in Spain with

(19:03):
group from Mexico and a coupleof groups from Malaysia, meeting
us with another group in Spain.
And basically it was sort of theconceit was, it's called La
Playa, and we're everybody's aton the beach on like, march 20,
2020, and the next day, covidlockdown happened. So

(19:24):
everybody's having this reallynice time at the beach. And
they, you know, meet this girland and it's they have the so
the first third of the show isthis really sweet time. People
doing yoga at the beach andmeeting each other. And it's
kind of doing some ratherextreme things, but that's you
get a bunch of yogis on thebeach, they have to show off,
and then catastrophe hits, andit's like, what is the the sort

(19:49):
of spiritual landscape of thesepeople when they're going
through, uh. These extremeexperiences. And it goes from
being kind of a covid lockdownexperience, there's a war then
is sort of introduced into it.
So there's tanks and airplanesscreaming down, and it's like

(20:14):
these people are just in areally difficult place. And at
the it ends with them thisreally happy yoga story. They
they don't know, like they'rethe this, this girl and guy who
met at the beach, who reallyjust had this fabulous day at
the beach seven years later.
They don't know if the otherone's even alive or dead, and

(20:35):
all they've got, sort of is thismemory. But it is the the memory
is still this thing thatspiritually animates them, their
love has transcended death. Ormaybe they're just in prison in
some locked up

amazing. Are any words used to convey this
idea, or is it all done throughmovement and in breath.

Unknown (21:03):
This particular show had a couple of songs with
lyrics, and some of the lyricswere in Chinese, in Mandarin,
and some of the songs were inSpanish, but the bulk of it is
just soundtracks. Very cool. Ohmy gosh, very useful. Very
useful to have the wordssometimes keeping more context

(21:24):
to what's going on. Of course,yeah,

but that's fascinating to think about
trying to convey all that sortof emotion, feeling and thought
through representation of thebody and or through a movement
practice.

Unknown (21:37):
I mean, this is what I mean. We one of the fascinating
things about contemporary yogais we have more physical skill.
I mean, there's more people withmore physical skill, of course,
than there's ever been before,ever and but like, nobody has
any use for this skill set,apart from the practice that

(21:58):
they do in the studio, becausethey'll never have to do a back
bend where they grab onto theirankles in real life. They'll
never have to do a handstandwith their legs in half lotus or
full lotus. The situations justdon't come up and yet, they're
highly expressive potentialitiesin what the bodies can do,

(22:20):
because it is about balance andharmony and ecstasy. And you
know, a person genuinely havingthese intense experiences and
balance and harmony can be justas intense as ecstasy. That's a
fascinating thing to watch, andit's a fascinating thing to try
and convey it to the audience sothat they go, Oh my god, I I

(22:44):
felt it. And they might not getthe minutia of the story or the
narrative that we're doing, butyou know, you hope they can
comprehend, oh my God, that'sreal people doing that. They're
they're having an authenticexperience on stage, and I'm
having it too, because that'show humans relate to theater,

so creative.
Thank you so much for breakingthat down. For me, one of the
chapters in the book touches onanger and energy and practice.
How can you help us work? Howcan yoga help us work with
difficult emotions like anger,grief and anxiety, without
bypassing them.

Unknown (23:26):
One of the one of the things that we talk about in the
book, and especially in thatchapter, but in other places as
well, and other essays as well,is that, first of all, in yoga
today, there is an idea thatthere are acceptable or good or
desired emotions and ones thatshould not be there, you know.
So anger is a big one of them,which is why we call the

(23:48):
chapters angers and energy, butalso things like, again,
anxiety, fear is a big one. Weconsider these negative
emotions. It's our position thatthere really is no difference
between negative and positiveemotions, that they all are
potentially fuel, especiallywhen they're intense, they're

(24:12):
potentially fuel that powers ourpractice, that gives our
practice deeper meaning. There'snothing that can spur you to
have a milk toast experiencemore than emotional flatness,
right? So it's our perspective,and we know also that there's so
much emphasis in yoga right nowon trauma. You know, every the

(24:34):
assumption is that everyone istraumatized. Everyone needs
healing, and it's great, becausesince yoga has been basically
described, right now, as ahealing practice, then
everybody's our client, becauseeverybody needs healing. This is
the presumption, right? But ourperspective is a little bit
different. We're saying, Okay,there's these emotions. We
should look at these emotions.
If everything is one, if that isthe premise in yoga,

(24:58):
everything's the same. Right?
The dog Eater is the same as thepriest. Why should anger be any
different than happiness? Right?
Why should ugliness be anydifferent than beauty? Why
should any of these things bedifferent? We should just our
perspective is. We should justaccept these and observe them
and use them as a fuel to try toget more deeply into an

(25:18):
understanding of the meaning ofan our own personal practice.
And so it's not something to beshied away from, agreed, it's
not something to not deal withor try to get rid of. It's just
something to work through. Andso I think that's pretty much
how we're perceiving this ideaof how we work with these
energies, but the intensity isimportant, and along with that,

(25:41):
things like risk taking isimportant, and that's something
that we've really being stillteaching in studios. I've closed
my studios, but I'm right nowI'm teaching in one of my
students from a long time agostudio, and I just started, and
I noticed now she gave meliterally a a written out list

(26:02):
of rules for class, like I readthem and most of them, I do
already, but I was sort ofstruck by how much attention is
paid to making sure that no oneis offended at all in class. You
know, everything, nothing youcan't say anymore. Is it okay? I
gotta give you a physicaladjustment. They have to have a

(26:22):
little card in front of them.

And you can't, don't, Lori, don't, don't say
the word adjustment. No,exactly, yeah, because you're
not a chiropractor.

Unknown (26:32):
Yeah, perfect already.
And, and I was struck by this,and although I do agree that we
should be, obviously beinclusive, and we should be, you
know, understanding of people'sdifferences and, etc, etc. I
mean, I correct people because Icare about them. It when I don't
care about you. I'm like, Thatguy's an idiot. I'm not
bothering with them. You know,we, we've gotten to a point

(26:54):
almost where we're so afraid tooffend someone that we've we've
flattened. We've emotionallyflattened. The entire
experience, there's very littlerisk, because we don't want
people to get hurt or you know,but that's what the risk, the
risk is, the thing you know. SoI'm surprised Ed didn't say this
already, but I am a little bit Iwas going to, but I couldn't get

(27:18):
a word in Edwin.

He's very patiently waiting. I can feel
him on the edge of his seat. I'mabout

Unknown (27:27):
to reveal something. Dr Laurier

green, I'm ready. I'm ready. They want to
learn more. He is

Unknown (27:38):
an adrenaline junkie.
You didn't say that, but she isan adrenaline junkie, so she
knows a lot about fear andanxiety. And I think, I mean,
Laurie can maybe explain itbetter.
I mean, I do a lot of I lovedoing a lot of very risky
things, nothing that I think Iwill never do, anything that I
think I can't do, but I go ontrips for months by myself. I

(28:02):
ride my bike, I like, climb upwaterfalls, I jump off things. I
and everyone always says to me,You're so brave, like, I can't
believe you do these things. AndI feel the opposite. I do them
because I am absolutelyterrified of them, I mean, and
but I couldn't get that effect.
I couldn't have that deepexperience that's actually like
life changing. In many cases, itreally changes me. If I wasn't

(28:26):
afraid, if it was just like Igot this, I'm just gonna go off
and and I think that that'sbecome so undervalued. You know
this, I'm not saying everyoneshould be an adrenaline junkie
now. I'm saying you need to havethat risk. You need to be
pushed. You can't even get intoflow, according to chess mcaula,
you can't even get into itwithout being a level of

(28:47):
challenge. The challenge, guess,can't be so much that you can't
do it at all. It has to be onthat edge and so. But we've
taken that out of class a lot oftimes, or for the most part, I
think because we're afraidsomeone's going to be hurt or
offended, or we're going to getsued or whatever it is that's

(29:08):
that's happening, and that'sreally a shame, because it's
taken our ability to have thatintensity of meaningful
experience out of most practiceand Out of most classes.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I can
definitely see it. Edward, whatdo you think is the outcome if
we follow this trajectory in theevolution of yoga as we know it
today, it's dark, it's a darkplace. It's like, what's gonna

(29:42):
happen. I like a good, a good,scary thing

Unknown (29:49):
that's coming out. We have a yoga horror movie.
Skinny, skinny guys aren't. Hasbeen up here for six years.
There's zombie yogis. I Well, Ithink, I think hopefully what

(30:09):
happens, in a bright and upbeatkind of way is that the
challenges get reconstrued, thatthe people see the challenge
less as being How deep can youget into your hip stretches
here, or how big is your backbend? Or what is the the

(30:29):
craziness of your one armedhandstands with the legs still
bound, or whatever, and intodifferent levels of challenge,
for instance, the challenge ofmoving incredibly slowly,
keeping it vinyasa, but exactlyhow slowly Can you breathe and
move at the same time so thatthe the anxiety and fear

(30:54):
becomes, oh, my God, this is soslow. Interesting in the dance
world, you've got buto dance outof Japan, which is, again, I'm
oversimplifying here, but was acontemporary dance form sort of
evolved out of a response toHiroshima and Nagasaki, and it's

(31:16):
very slow and very painful, butthe patience that you have to do
to get to the end of the piecesactually usually pays off. So
there is, there's thatsmoothness, slowness, different
kinds of challenges will maybemark what constitutes an

(31:36):
advanced practitioner. I, I wepaint this out in our first book
Teaching contemporary yoga therebecause the technology exists
now to be able to hook littlethings up to you so that you can
understand, not you understand,You can record your movements on

(32:01):
a screen or connected to musicthrough movement sensors. You
can actually make music. So youknow, if I, if I move my hand
through that kind of a movement,it will be connected to the
violin sound on on thesynthesizer. And so you'd be
able to actually tell just fromthe way you were moving and and

(32:26):
in theory, then you could have aclass of people behaving like a
symphony orchestra, where theyare making music while they're
doing this. Or the same could bethe way in which the lighting is
controlled. When I move my righthand, the red lights come on and
when so you there's a potentialfor people's ability to use

(32:51):
their physical skills in yoga tobegin to make much more multi
sensory experiences that mightsatisfy the adrenaline junkies
in the world, but, but may alsobe very satisfying. And just a,
oh, my God. This is, this isbeautiful. This is music, this
is light, this is people incommunion with one another. And,

(33:14):
you know, the technology exists,and it is being used. I mean
this, there's a thing calledsound beam, which it does
exactly this, and it's beingused in the UK, but it's being
used to teach old agepensioners, people who are like
stuck in their chair, and allthey can do is barely move their
hand, but they can make music ina way that maybe they were never

(33:38):
capable of doing. So it's beingit's being put to therapeutic
uses at the moment, and it'sjust hasn't found its way into a
place like the yoga studio.
Yeah, I think one of the things,I think, along with what Ed's
saying with these newtechnologies, why? Why do this?
Well, one, it is a creativeendeavor, certainly, and that's

(33:59):
satisfying. But also, if youknow the idea that the more
sensory experience we can haveall at once, right? That's
really the definition ofembodiment, you know to be so
completely at one time,experiencing everything we
possibly can through our senses,you know, that that really is

(34:22):
the ultimate experience ofembodiment and and that's what
people experience when they arein something like flow, you
know, which is pretty much thesame as thing we're trying to
achieve in in in a yogaexperience. So that's the reason
that we were talking about sortof these different sensory
levels and the utility of themin a practice, and how do we

(34:42):
open those up? There was areally interesting experiment
that I read about I was atUniversity of Texas at Austin.
This psychology professor wantedto see if it was true that when
you were almost in a caraccident or some. Like that
happened that times you perceivethe time stood still, you know,

(35:03):
that everything slowed down. Sothey're trying to test this. And
they they tried a bunch ofthings that didn't work. And
finally, because they weren'tscary enough, like roller
coasters. And of course, he wasmaking his graduate students do
all these things, you know,because that's apparently the
only people. What he did was hehad them do this sort of free
base, jumping off of a buildingbackward. That was ultimately

(35:26):
because it was the scariestthing that they could think of
that was legal. And he put thesevisors on them that ticked away
the seconds, like digitalseconds, to see if time stood
still. Because that was theyweren't scared on the other
things, but they got scared onthis. And what they found was
that it didn't the perceptionwas, when you're in it that
everything slows down, butwhat's actually happening at

(35:48):
that moment is that all of yoursenses open up. Your body goes,
Ah, and there's like, you smelleverything, you hear everything,
and it's such an overload. Yourbrain can't process all these
chemical

signal. So interesting. Ears like, it's

Unknown (36:03):
slow. And so I read that, I thought, wow, that's
what we want to do in yoga, butwithout almost dying. How do we
do that? How do we how do werepeat that, that set of
circumstances? And so this iswhy we go for you know, we
strongly believe in this ideathat we want to be in the

(36:23):
sensual and why the body has tobe the central point of
engagement, because the body isthe central that's where we're
getting all that informationfrom and and so I hope that
becomes the future of yoga.

Do you feel like the great well said. Thank
you. So fascinating. Do youthink that the reason we were
attracted to the intense,difficult practices before it
got flattened, is because it didthat for

Unknown (36:52):
us? Yeah, I think that endorphin, I mean, the idea, I
think at some level, it surethere's endorphins, but
endorphins come because of that,you know. They come because we
have that intensity. Now theyreproduce that intensity by
heating a room up really hot,you know, and that, but we want
to do that with our instrument,you know. And there's nothing

(37:13):
wrong with heating a roomeither. I, I like a hot room,
but it's not the same asproducing that through your own
actions and your own efforts,and

great point, I hope so. I have one more
question on this particulartopic. I'm so curious what you
guys will think. I think one ofthe reasons that I've gravitated
from hardcore Stanga practice togentle yoga is because I have an
orthopedic challenge with myback, where back bending really,

(37:44):
really hurts, and so with pain,and I guess maybe the reason we
flatlined a little and smoothedeverything out and trying to
make things simple is becausewe're looking back at the way we
lived our lives in the past andwonder, had we done things a
little differently? Would I bein as much pain as I am now? So
I'm just kind of curious whereyour thoughts are with your own
personal practice, and what typeof experiences you've had with

(38:06):
pain, and how that affects yourdecision making as you move
forward.

Unknown (38:54):
An interesting question. So we've all, you
know, you get to be a certainage and, I have rheumatoid
arthritis. I just actuallydiscovered it, but I've had
little things all along. Look,I'm extremely lucky, nothing
major. I don't know that it'schanged my practice at all. I

(39:18):
mean pain. I feel like I alwaysused to call my body. It's
always something. And just notunderstand why I had pain here
or there. But I just try to workthrough it in a smart way, you
know, in a way that explores whyI'm in pain exactly what it is,
tries to figure it out and thenwork within the confines of

(39:39):
whatever is going on at thatmoment. I really don't. I
personally don't really pull mypractice back from things,
although I will admit there aresome things I won't do anymore,
because they'll always hurt me.
I'm not good after, but thoseare the same things that

(40:00):
honestly hurt me before. I justdidn't want to, I just didn't
want to admit it. Yeah, so Ithink we all have our own ways
of trying to understand. I mean,certain amount of pain is
inevitable, right in life, I Isay to some of my older
students, look, you have twochoices. You can sit on a couch
and watch TV from now on, andyou'll probably feel just fine,

(40:22):
but you won't be able to doanything, but if you want to
still be able to climb amountain, it's going to hurt.
How many channels, how manychannels?
But it's going you're going tofeel your body, you know. And
and I also think it's. Definingpain is also another. We could

(40:44):
be here all day doing that like,what exactly is that? But
Edward, I will leave this toyou, because you've actually
written some things on pain. So,yeah,
I think there is a light motifrunning through yoga that that,

(41:04):
because the nature of pro isthat it always ends, that it
through change, whatever iswon't be again. And so there's
this, this idea that that bringsabout sorrow. And so everybody
you know will die, and that's asorry thing. And, you know, it's

(41:26):
it kind of, as I say, it's aleitmotif. It's not completely
there, but that things are notgood, and so you might as well
turn away from life. But itwould make just as much sense to
construe everything aspotentially delightful, and it's
you know your practice. What canyou do to make your practice the

(41:49):
most delightful it can be? Andif you know doing aggressive
back bends does not bring tolight, there's no reason to do
it, because you're never goingto need those big back bends for
anything I mean, but if it is,if you're a person for whom that
is delightful, that makesperfect sense to be seeking that

(42:10):
out just to explore howdelightful things can be. And
the question, then, going backto what Laurie was saying about
sensual opening, it's, can weuse the yoga to get better at
our sensuality, that ouresthetic appreciation is

(42:30):
enhanced, and like somesommelier, we just get better
and better at tasting wine. Or,you know that we become more
aware of what smells are like,or that we listen better. And
it's, again, it's sort of thevinyasa antithesis to the asana

(42:51):
pradia Hara, where, you knowpradahara. It's withdrawal of
the senses, you know, like, cutthem off, because they'll only
distort what the reality is.
They'll only present somesimulacrum of what reality
really is. In your mind, it'srather to go the other direction
and say, How can you refine yoursenses ability? Can you find
things that are make it moredelightful? So a scent that you

(43:15):
barely could detect? You go, ohmy god, I smell Jasmine on the
air. Or, you know, it's like,how do you that light breeze
that's touching me? I feel that,rather than sort of being numb
to what the sensual informationis. So I think that's, oh, I'm

(43:35):
becoming a base Sensualist,older, I guess my I'm just
trying to come up withphilosophic reasons for why that
would be. That's that's the bigchanges. It's got to be
enjoyable. It's meant to bedelightful.

Yeah, well, I appreciate your guys's honesty,
and thank you for letting me askthese questions. I have another
big one for you. In the book youtalk about credentializing,
credentialization and quote,what really matters in modern

(44:19):
yoga. Do you think the yogaworld has become too focused on
certifications and externalvalidation and what, where can
we go here? How can we make ahealthier model?

Unknown (44:28):
The short answer is yes, and very strong Yes, in my
opinion, we always wonderwhether we should do this, but
I'm just going to do it. I mean,I think that maybe yoga alliance
is the worst thing that everhappened to us, because they
have basically caused this overcredentialing problem to a great

(44:51):
extent. You know, they, they arethe ones that pushing these
credit little courses every timeyou look, look around you, I
can't go on Facebook or anyother social media without being
shown every five seconds anothercourse that I can be certified
as a practitioner and in oneday, and it's only it's 99% off
today, and people have 20million letters after their

(45:13):
names, and we don't even knowwhat they mean, and honestly,
they mean nothing. That's theproblem. So we have this
credential inflation, and somuch so that the credentials
really cannot guarantee that anythat the person we're looking at
knows anything. In fact, itdoesn't guarantee it, because we
have no oversight really, ofthese things. And so the

(45:34):
credentials have become moreimportant than actually
knowledge. You know, I mean, itused to be before. You know,
when we first started, and maybeyou as well, I don't know, we
didn't have any of this stuff.
You just mentored with somebody,and they told you, when you were
ready, you're ready to teachthis one part of this class,
Lori, and I'd be like, you know,nervous. And my God, my teacher

(45:55):
said I was ready. And you know,that was after many years of
practice, tons of hours ofobserving and helping my mentor
or mentors, and you know, youreally knew it before you taught
it. And nowadays, of course, weknow that's not true, and I'm
not trying to, you know,disparage any teachers in

(46:17):
particular, because a lot ofthese people don't even know
what they don't know. They thinkthis is how everybody is, the
teachers, and pretty muchnowadays, it sort of is true,
right? So the credentials arenot helping us, and I don't know
what Ed thinks about this, butwhether we go back to a system
of mentoring, I don't know thatif that is possible or not or

(46:38):
but certainly we, I wish wewould get a recognition that
credentials are not what we'reafter. It's knowledge, and it
can only come from experiencethat we're after. Experience is
everything, and ex and yoga is apractice of experience, not
books, not, you know oldphilosophy as much as we value

(47:03):
that it is, it is only true whatyou experience through your
practice. And I wish we couldget back to that instead of
having the letters be what'strue instead of the person's
experience.
Well, said, Yeah, I agree withyou. I mean, there is, I mean,

(47:29):
poor old yoga Alliance, poor oldI mean,

even still. I mean, I know they're there, but
are there people involved in it?
Has AI taken it over? I mean, isit a human thing anymore, is it?

Unknown (47:43):
No? Well, well, I mean, they certainly have tried to
address, and I seem continue totry to address, the difficult
situation that has come up with.
But you know, a person is notready to teach after a 200 hour
training, and they're probablynot ready to teach with the
additional 300 which used to becalled a 500 but which is now

(48:06):
called a 300 because it's, youknow, to be a good teacher,
you've got to be doing this fora very long time to have
something to teach. And it's, itis problematic that a thing that
really functions merely as aregistry is, well, I say it's a
pity. It has saved many yogastudios. Let's face it, many

(48:31):
yoga studios have only continuedto exist because they were able
to run teacher trainingprograms. But the and, you know,
they were far more profitablethan running studio classes,
where you had two in themorning, one at lunch and two in
the evening, and you could makein a month or a 10 month course,

(48:53):
or whatever, you could wait makemuch more money putting putting
a bunch of teachers out thereand and so that, you know, made
it possible for many studios tosurvive. So however, it's
there's, I think the realproblem with it is that when
you're teaching 200 hourcourses, I've done a few, I've

(49:16):
taught on a few, I've been theHired Gun, and you're teaching
people how to do yoga ratherthan how to teach. And they're
fundamentally different skills.
You know, to do yoga is thisstuff that we're talking about.
This is this experiential stuff,what you do when you teach is

(49:38):
removed you're you're meant tobe observing and analytic and
being able to reference past andfuture, and it's not about being
in the present so much as it'sbeing able to channel a lot of
information in a way that isprofitable to the benefit of the
students figuring out what thepractice of yoga is and then so

(50:02):
what you would be normally,maybe in other places where you
learn to be a teacher, you learnhow to teach. But you know the
way it is now, people learn, oh,here's a I'll learn some
sequences. I'll learn how to doyoga, and then I can be a
teacher. It's not they'redifferent skills.

Edward have Have you ever fallen into that
situation where you are involvedin doing a training and realize
that the people you're workingwith probably will never teach
and that there isn't really thatmany opportunities for them to
teach like I find that that'sone of the conundrums that these
training. Programs are in it atthe moment is because the people

(50:44):
are sign. They're looking to tryto we're looking to try or pay
our rent. We want to fill thesetrainings up. We know we can't
even afford to pay them to teachfor us, but we're but we're
still going to train them to doit anyway.

Unknown (50:59):
You have potential. You could be a yoga
teacher. We actually talk a lotabout this. In our first book,
we talk a lot about how, youknow, there's really very few
places in this world where youcan make a living, that you can
support yourself being a yogateacher, and even fewer places
where you can support yourselfhaving a studio. Because it

(51:21):
costs more to have a studio thanto teach in
somebody's studio. I mean, arich spouse that should be in
the trainingand it's a shame that you know,
studios have to resort torunning these trainings, and
they'll let anybody in becausethey need the money so they can
stay open, so they can teach.
But then the people coming outare neither prepared to teach,

(51:41):
nor are there jobs for themwhere they can support
themselves? And again, whenEdward was talking before about
how the studio model just isn'tworking, I think that's what
we're referring to now, is thatsomething's got to give with the
studio model to make it work forboth the owners and the people
taking classes. And I think it'sgoing to require that people

(52:05):
don't look at yoga as health andfitness, you know, because
they're not going to want to payright now. They're willing to
pay the kind of money they payto go to the gym. They're not
willing to pay for somethingmore deeper, more important. I
don't even know how to qualifyit than that, and I don't really
know so much the answer to that,that question so much as to

(52:28):
identify what the Our challengeis. Maybe you know that love,
you know one direction it mightgo would be to make things more
course oriented. I mean, part ofthe problem with the studio
model is you've got thebeginners class Monday,
Wednesday, Friday, and you'vegot the same beginners on Monday

(52:51):
and Wednesday, but there's somenew ones there on Friday, and
then the next week, there'sdifferent people. And unlike
what happens when you actuallyhave course material, you you
know, you get through a course,this is what we're going to
learn. This is the informationeverybody's meant to be there.
And this is, this is how we doit, that
commit. They need to commit todo that. And that's more

(53:13):
difficult challenge, though,for that, and because I don't
know our yoga people flakes andthey they have trouble
committing, maybe that's part ofthe problem, but, but also it's
because the the what's beingoffered is not seen as being
sufficiently interesting. It's athing I do, like flossing my
teeth. It's good for me. It'sabout health and fitness, rather

(53:35):
than, my God, I'm so excited tobe going to yoga, because it's
like the stuff that gets talkedabout, the things we do, it's,
like, the most exciting part ofmy week. This is the bit I look
forward to. And this is whyhaving a teacher who really
knows what they're doingactually makes it like, Okay,
this is, this is a bigentertainment. It's

(53:58):
entertainment and it'sintelligent. I mean,

yeah, do we have, do we have a good model?
Do we have a good model ofanother training, like, another
modality of if we So, if I wereto ask you, Edward in the dance
world, and then Lori, you're inacademia, like in academia, if I
want to be an academia teacher,like, I want to work on the
professional level at a collegeor university, teaching after

(54:26):
I've learned. Does theuniversity do a good job
training people to be goodteachers? And then, and then,
Edward, in relation to dance,I'm curious, like, Huh? Okay, so
I have a dance school. Am Itraining other people to be
dance teachers? Surely, but itseems like you don't have to be
kind of a good dancer first. Ithas to be organic, right?

(54:46):
Doesn't it? Seem like you justall these things. Seem like you
have to actually spend a lot oftime doing it first, and you
naturally will then just stepinto the role when the time
presenting

Unknown (54:57):
the nail on the head. I think that you know you don't,
you don't go to medical schoolwithout taking a biology course.
You know what I'm saying? Youdon't go. I want to be a doctor.
I'll just go to medical school.
And that's the situation thatwe're in with yoga. You know,
you don't have to, you just haveto love yoga. Yeah, you don't
have to know anything. We'llteach you that, right? You're
right. And so you don't startout maybe with with but, I mean,
we're talking differently aboutstudents and teachers. Yeah, Ed

(55:19):
and I have spoken about, forexample, we've actually had
actually had this discussionlike, where could we what could
we do? And we looked at thingslike other physical disciplines,
like, let's say the martialarts, right? The martial arts
has a different model. I don'tknow. I'm not a martial artist,
so I can't really speak to allof it, but I what they do do is
progress. People, you know.

(55:41):
Their system of belts that say,right, in karate, or whatever
you're taking, you know this theteacher, you go through the
training, and you have to gothrough each step, and when you
get to that, there's a test youprove that you've made it to the
next level, and then you'rethere. We don't really have
anything

like that.
That's good point. By the timeyou're black belt, then, yeah,
do you think that? And I'vethought about this too. And then
I think the challenge with thatis that then we create this
competitive, hierarchicalstructure of like, well, and
this happened in Ashtanga bigtime. What series are you up to?
I'm on first everyone, thirdseries, yeah, and the posture
this is right. And whoever's thehigher one. You poor, sorry

(56:21):
person. Yeah, you're only a cupof toss of the scariest, most
painful posture. You're

Unknown (56:33):
not at that posture yet. And

so that's where that but I agree with you. I
like the idea of testing out, soto speak, to move to the next
and then, but, and then, but, Isee the challenge there. I
don't. Thank you for having us.
It's in

Unknown (56:46):
your mind. I mean, I don't. I don't think that
progression needs to entailcompetition with others, you
know? I think that that'ssomething that people might do
naturally because they'recompetitive, yeah. But good
point, you know, we find, we'vetalked, we talked about this lat
too, we find is that the peoplethat are actually really good at
yoga are rarely competitive. Imean, the really good, best

(57:08):
students, they're, they're doingit for themselves, you know,
they're, they're looking attheir own development. They're
not worried about being betterthan the person next to them.
Yeah, there are some people onthat,
but often, often delight in thefact that other people are
getting good. Because if you'rein a room with people who are
getting good, you get bettertoo. It's, you know, it's, it's,

(57:32):
it's only the people who thinkthey're losing in competition,
who think things arecompetitive. I find, as long as
you think you're getting better,that this is, wow. This is a
great situation. So and so isbetter at back bends, but like
my forward bends have reallycome on, great and, oh, I'm so
happy for them. And that, Imean, does happen fairly often.

(57:57):
Really. You see this as I'veseen this so much in my own
practice. Maybe I should havesaid this before, but when we
get older, there's things thatyou lose. You know, we've
probably all been there, thethree of us. There's things that
you lose that used to be like,Oh my god, I can't I'm just not
being able to hit this everytime with ease anymore. But then
there's things I am so muchbetter at now that I never used

(58:18):
to be able to do well toappreciate those, those, those,
I'm sorry. I'm

just curious.
I'm so curious. What's somethingthat you feel you're better at
now than

Unknown (58:31):
Well, certainly things like a deep back bend. I'm not
I'm a big back Bender, but Ican't do those gigantic back
bends anymore at my age. I Thereare some. But however, my
flexibility is shockingly betterthan it's ever been, but in a
good way, not in an overlyflexible way. I'm much better at

(58:55):
frankly, hand balancing thanI've ever been. For some bizarre
reason, I feel much lighter. Ithink I've just mastered this,
because so much advanced work issubtle. It's not, you know, that
there's sort of gross skilllevel. It's a subtle thing. It's
like, oh, it's not this. It'slike, oh, my arms that way. So
this is tiny little movement.
And I think when you figure thatout, certain things that take

(59:17):
finesse you get better at, and Ithink I'm much better now at the
things that took finesse, ratherthan at the things that took
more root, flexibility,yeah, strength, like or like or
like, fortitude, I think I'm thefinesse is there, and so those
things, I think I'm smarter at,and I understand more. I'm

(59:39):
smarter, you know, than I usedto be, yes. So I think I'm
better at those things. And Ithink if we appreciate that,
it's not about that, likeprogression isn't a straight
line up, I think is what I'msaying. And so it ceases to be a
competition when you cease tosee it as, you know, going
straight up a ladder. It goes indifferent ways, you know, the

(59:59):
way that we develop. And we canappreciate development rather
than, you know, some sort ofstraight line of progression
like in the Ashtanga series, Ithink that we lose that. Maybe
that's why Ashtanga can becompetitive, because it does
have that set sequence thatcan't change. But if we don't
practice in that way, or even ifwe practice Ashtanga in a way

(01:00:20):
where we appreciate thesethings. It ceases to be
competitive like that, even withourselves. You know,

Todd McLaughlin (01:00:27):
yeah, oh my gosh. We scheduled an hour and
we have two more minutes and 29seconds, just kidding. So then I
have and have so many morequestions. Maybe we can do a
part 234, and five. But. Forpart, for absolutely,

Unknown (01:00:46):
what we want the book to be doing is like, yeah, you
know

it does. It does the words you guys chose to
I'm finding, oh, man, it'sgonna. Had to, I'm not have to
look words up. There's a fewwords that you guys use that I'm
kind of, like, I don't even knowwhat that means, but in a good
way, like, I'm enjoying it onthat level you guys. Like, it's
poetic. It's, you put a lot oftime into this. It's very well

(01:01:15):
thought out. And I, you know,thank you so much for sending me
a copy that was very kind andsweet of you. And I, I've been
enjoying I've been enjoying itimmensely. So I, I'm so honored
to have this opportunity. If Ican just throw one more question
in, and hopefully it'll bereasonable to answer. Edward, is
there, is there a myth you wantto bust? Is Is there a myth that

(01:01:37):
you feel we need to talk aboutbefore we close, that you think
really is holding us back andsee yoga, either solo
practitioner community,

Unknown (01:01:46):
just a little a little one, and it's, it's just the
first thing that springs tomind, please. Because, I mean,
we've written a book that peopledescribe as scholarly, but it's
not really an academic book.
It's a little bit of an academicbook, but it's really a trade
book, but it's a crossover book,and I think there's the heavy
duty academics look a lot at theancient texts and the

(01:02:14):
sociological aspects of what'sgoing on in modern Yoga. And I'd
like to see the academe pay moreattention to what's the actual
practice is about. So it's, Ithink, kind of the myth that the
ancients really knew it all andthe knowledge has been
forgotten, and that, you know,if we just translate a few more

(01:02:37):
versions of the whatever, tryingto think of some of the ones
that James Mallinson quotes,because, you know, I mean he's
brilliant academic, and I meanthat whole Oxford crew, fabulous
work, but not at Oxford anymore.

(01:03:04):
That's anyway, yeah, but yeah,but anyway, I mean new news,
yeah, in a way, veryinteresting. I don't want to
disrespect that, because I findit fascinating to read about,
but the complete lack ofacademic writing about the

(01:03:25):
actual practice. There's morebeing written in in sports
medicine, about stuff that isexciting in terms of practice.
And it's, again, it's, it'stimid about going into some of
the yogic stuff, this stuffabout intensity and the
spiritual significance of that,it's not being properly

(01:03:46):
addressed. And so I'd say thatone. I don't know if Lori's got
a myth to bust hertotally. I totally agree with
that one, but I would also saythat, without doing any
disservice to the ancient texts,that the myth I'd like to bust
is that somehow what was said inthe ancient text is akin to
gospel. Because first of all,we've only, we only focus on a

(01:04:09):
few texts in a huge canon, hugecanon of writing, and that's an
accident of history. And I wouldattribute that mostly, or blame
mostly that on Vivekananda andhis presentation at the Chicago
parliament of religion that madewhat we do here, that you
redefined yoga in the way hewanted, right, as Raja Yoga and
so but these texts are meant toinform us about what the

(01:04:35):
ancients thought about yoga.
They're not necessarily what ourexperiences would be. And I so
that myth, I'm hoping will allowpeople to learn from those past
experiences and then use that toexperiment in the presence that
they get to decide what yoga isand what the truth of practice

(01:05:00):
is. And again, it always makesme laugh when I have students
who, like outside of the studio,are like scientists and doctors
and lawyers and Indian chiefsand believe in science, and they
walk into the studio and all ofa sudden, like they're they
believe in fairies and crystalsand chakras, which they would

(01:05:22):
never believe anything like thatin any other venue, and there's
no need for that. You know, weshould believe what we believe,
whatever. If you believe infairies all the time, great. I'm
just saying there's no reasonthat we can't be the same people
in the studio as we are outside.
We don't have to bifurcate ourlives. And I think we do that
in. An attempt to save thesanctity of these, this ancient

(01:05:43):
knowledge, which we considercorrect without question, right?
It's Shruti and sacred. Youknow, that's the myth I'd like
to bust.

Nice. Oh, man, so much, so much, and we got a
long way to go and a short timeto get there. How can we? How
can we?
Thank you. Thank you. You guysknow what I'm talking about.
Finally, I'm in good company.
I'm not I'm in my age rage, myage range, and with people who

(01:06:21):
have been at it for a long time,oh my gosh. What an honor and a
privilege. You guys. Thank youso much. You know, I feel like
what you're doing is askingquestions, and by asking
questions, this is how we cangrow and learn and progress. And
I ultimately feel that you bothlove yoga so much it has played

(01:06:44):
such a huge part in your livesthat you're wanting to ask these
important questions so thatit'll have meaning for the
future generations that come incontact with it. So I think
that's a you know, what a greattask to take

Unknown (01:07:00):
you on that that's going on.

Thanks Todd, thanks for having us. Oh, what a
pleasure. Thank you. Thank youfor thank you so much. I really
don't want to hang up, but Ihope we can do it again. So I
found you guys reallythoughtful, and I really
appreciate it. Thank you. Thankyou. Native yoga. Todd cast is

(01:07:28):
produced by myself. The thememusic is dreamed up by Bryce
Allen. If you like this show,let me know if there's room for
improvement. I want to hear thattoo. We are curious to know what
you think and what you want moreof what I can improve. And if
you have ideas for future guestsor topics, please send us your

(01:07:50):
thoughts to info at Native yogacenter. You can find us at
Native yoga center.com, and hey,if you did like this episode,
share it with your friends. Rateit and review and join us next
time booyah for ya know you.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

The Bobby Bones Show

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Edward Clark & Laurie A. Greene ~ The Future of Yoga: Asana, Vinyasa & Emotional Depth

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

The Bobby Bones Show

All Episodes

Edward Clark & Laurie A. Greene ~ The Future of Yoga: Asana, Vinyasa & Emotional Depth

Dateline NBC