Tova Olsson is a seasoned educator and scholar with over 20 years of experience in yoga philosophy, mythology, and religious studies. With a bachelor's degree and master's in religious studies, Tova is currently working on her PhD while actively teaching at a university level in Sweden. Tova is well-known for her engaging storytelling through social media under the handle @Saraswati_Studies, where she elaborates on Indian philosophy, mythology, and the history of yoga.
Embark on this enlightening journey through the intricacies of yoga philosophy with Tova Olsson. Listen to the full episode to unearth more engaging insights and stay tuned for more enriching content from the series.
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(01:04):
Oh, wow, I'm so happy you'rehere. Tova Ollson is My special
guest this week. She wrote abook Yoga and Tantra History,
Philosophy and Mythology. Go andfollow her on Instagram. Please
go follow her on Instagram. Youhave to check her out. And I
(01:27):
think what she's doing with yogaphilosophy and the way she's
sharing the information that sheshares on Instagram is priceless
as a yoga practitioner or ateacher, and so please go follow
her, read her post each day,like and comment, because she
does an amazing job, and shedefinitely put some serious time
(01:48):
in, and you will learn a lot. Soher handle is at
@saraswati_studies. The linksfor all of her resources are in
the notes, so find her and takeone of her courses, or travel
with her to India to learn more.
I had an amazing conversationwith her and got the best vibes,
(02:09):
and I feel her heart is reallyin an amazing right place. So I
hope that you enjoy this as muchas I did, and let's go ahead and
begin. I'm very grateful to haveTova Ollson here today on the
podcast, Tova. Thank you so muchfor joining me.
Tova Olsson (02:29):
Thank you for
inviting me Todd.
Todd McLaughlin (02:32):
I found you via
social media. I typed in
Instagram Shaiva Tantra, and youpopped up at the very top, and I
started following you yourhandles at Saraswathi underscore
studies, and I started readingyour posts. And I love the way
(02:54):
that you share the history,philosophy and mythology of yoga
and India with the imagery thatyou use, and I find you doing an
incredible job. So first, I wantto thank you for all the time
and energy that you put into theeducation sphere that's
available on Instagram.
Unknown (03:14):
Thank you for
recognizing that it is a lot of
work. And of course, it's it's alabor I do out of love and out
of inspiration. But yes, I don'tthink people realize how much
work and how hard one thatknowledge is, right? Yes,
giveaway for free to Instagram,yeah, yeah.
Todd McLaughlin (03:37):
Well, that's
that's cool. I noticed you have
a teachable platform, also underthat same handle, which is or
the website name is, Saraswatistudies dot teachable which the
links are on the descriptionpeople can find super easy. And
I saw you have several courseson Indian philosophy. Can you
(03:58):
tell me a little bit about how Iknow you've been teaching for
over 20 years. How did you go inthis direction? A lot of people
start getting fascinated withyoga within the posture world.
What was your trajectory forfinding yoga and then putting
your attention on to studyingphilosophy.
Unknown (04:23):
Well, I I got my
bachelor in religious studies
pretty early in my early 20s, Iwould say, and I was always a
child and a teenager that reallyenjoyed writing, reading,
philosophy, religion, you know,the greater questions in life
was kind of, kind of always onmy mind. And so I was also a
(04:47):
very physical child. I lovegymnastics. I love to dance, and
all of these things kind of cametogether in my studies of yoga.
So, yes, I discovered. Posturalyoga in my late teen, teens,
probably, and by that time, Iwas also, of course, very, very
(05:08):
interested in all types ofstudies. I moved away from home.
I dropped out of school when Iwas 17. I was a really good
student, but I was also a veryrestless young woman, and so I
moved to Paris in my teens, andI read a lot of books. I did a
lot of dancing. I earned aliving, of course, as a
(05:29):
waitress. The things that youneed to do when you're young.
And when I came back to Sweden,I started to work as a language
teacher in French and English.
And so studying, teaching hasalways been something that's
been very, very close to myheart. And then I moved around.
I lived in the Caribbean for afew years, and I did some
(05:51):
academic studies on a distance,because that was possible
through my Swedish University.
And used to mention theUniversity in Sweden is free,
right for the citizens ofSweden. So I was able to engage
in all types of studies. For avery, very long time. I studied
(06:15):
anthropology, internationalrelations, literature, and I
finally, kind of got caught byreligious studies, and then at
the same time I had been I hadstarted to teach dance, and also
I started to teach yoga in myearly 20s. And this happened
kind of out of accident, youknow, I was teaching dance in a
(06:39):
dance school, and there was ayoga teacher there, and she was
going on holiday or somethinglike that, and she needed
somebody to fill in for her. AndI said, Well, I do postural yoga
at home, but I have noeducation. And she said, I don't
have it either, you know. Andthis was way back over 20 years
ago, so there wasn't a lot ofyoga teachers in Sweden, and
(07:01):
much less yoga teachertrainings, you know. So I very
shyly went to teach my firstyoga class, and people really
liked it. And after that, youknow, several other, I think,
dance studios and also gyms. Andso kind of asked me if I wanted
to come and teach yoga. And so Ikind of proceeded on that path
(07:24):
of being invited to differentplaces and feeling kind of shy
about it, and then eventually,of course, doing teacher
trainings and doing emotions andso with different teachers and
and educating myself more andmore over the years. But I think
for me, postural yoga was neverseparated from the study of
(07:46):
philosophy, because I was alwaysso interested in those aspects
of yoga. And I from the verybeginning and up until this day,
I always start when I'm going toteach a class. I always start
with the planning aroundphilosophy, or the planning
around mythology, and then thepostural yoga kind of comes as a
(08:10):
result of those ideas. Soinspiration, amazing. So after
having taught for about, youknow, quite a long time. And of
course, my my classes tended toget a little bit longer over the
years. So in yoga studios thenand in recent years, I could
(08:35):
teach classes that were twohours long or so, and then I
could take my time, and ofcourse, also teaching workshops
and teaching in yoga teachertrainings. So I can more take my
time with the philosophy and themythology and the things that
I'm very, very, very interestedin, even though I still, you
know, practice Asana everysingle day, but I don't see
(08:58):
myself as a teacher of posturalyoga. And since I started that
platform, Saraswati studies, theonline school came first, and
the Instagram came after that,because I had no online
visibility. And people told me,If you're going to have an
online school, you need onlinevisibility. And I didn't even
(09:19):
know why I should have an onlineschool. It was Saraswati, the
goddess of learning, who kind ofurged me to open up that online
school. And just one year later,the pandemic hit online school
was the reason that I couldsupport myself and my two kids
during that time, and thenthrough the Instagram post, the
(09:40):
online school has steadilygrown. In the beginning, I just
taught in Swedish, of course,and I felt kind of shy about
teaching in English. I felt thatthere are a lot of brilliant
teachers already teaching inEnglish. I wanted to kind of
tend to the people in Swedenthat needed more philosophy and
mythology. Teachings. But thenpeople started to ask me to
(10:03):
start teaching in English, andso I did. And yeah, amazing.
Todd McLaughlin (10:10):
Of the story,
the compression I hear you,
that's amazing too, but that'sso cool. I love hearing how
these evolve, and very cool thatyou were a step ahead on the
online before the pandemic,because that was what I believe,
pushed a lot of us yoga teachersonline that would have never
thought this would be an optionor even a passion, you know, so
(10:35):
that's I that's really cool. I'mI'm curious when you come in
with a group of new students tothe world of philosophy, and
when you have as much time inthe saddle and or as many years
of practice and study that youhave, where's the beginning
point for you and wheneducating?
Unknown (10:55):
Well, I know that we
speak a little bit about
storytelling later, perhaps, andmythology, but I find that
storytelling and mythology issuch a beautiful way to open
into mythology, because peoplelove storytelling. As adults, we
don't get to sit down and listento storytelling so often, but we
(11:17):
consume storytelling through,you know, Netflix or the cinema
or listening to audiobooks orwhatever it is that we're
engaging with we love as humansstorytelling. So I think that's
that's kind of a way to touchpeople's hearts and make them
(11:40):
engage in philosophy in a waythat they wouldn't be able to do
if we used to open up the yogasutra or one of the tantric
things. Yeah. But what I usuallydo also when, when I am teaching
a yoga teacher training, forexample, is that I first teach
on the history of yoga, and thenwhen we kind of have an overview
(12:01):
of the history and developmentof yoga, it makes sense to also
look at the philosophicalsystems and the different texts
that were important in differenttime periods of the development
of yoga and so, so all of thesethings kind of come together. So
it's a great big puzzle. And westart, you know, with kind of
(12:22):
the corners of the puzzle, andthen we kind of build in and try
to fill it up.
Todd McLaughlin (12:28):
Oh, that's a
great point. And that brings
back a memory. I one of myteachers would, when we be in
shavasana or in a setting, in ateacher training, would pull out
some of the classic texts andjust read. And I remember laying
there on the floor just feelinglike, wow, nobody just reads it
to me anymore, or to anyone likeit's such a nice experience. I
(12:50):
would gather you would storytell via combo of both, maybe
reading and stuff that you'vecrafted, material you've crafted
before. But that's that's areally good point. I think
that's so valuable to hear storyand to have someone tell it. I
agree with you, too, but that'sso cool. You know, I often hear
yoga students express confusionabout conflicting stories. There
(13:15):
are about the origins of yogaand where it came from, and who
it belongs to and what it's for.
And as someone who's beenimmersed in this practice for a
long time, I'm curious, how doyou suggest that we as modern
practitioners and teachersnavigate this complexity with
respect and clarity, I guess,clarity like, how do we get
clear about the origins, andthen how do we be respectful as
(13:37):
well? Because I know sometimesif we tell a story, there might
be somebody that might say, Doyou have your story, right?
Unknown (13:46):
Yeah, this is a very,
very big question, right? And
as, as a historian of religion,of course, because, of course, I
went back to the university, youknow, it wasn't the end of my
story that after after a fewyears of teaching yoga, I kind
(14:06):
of got tired of not being ableto kind of dive deep into theory
and think longer thoughts. So Iwent back to the university, I
got my masters, and I'mcurrently working on my PhD,
right? So I am a historian ofreligion, and of course, for me,
as a scholar and a long timepractitioner of yoga, finding
(14:30):
out the truth of the matter isquite important. You know,
something that we developthrough yoga, according to the
tradition, is discernment, andso I would say that it is
important as practitioners toinform ourselves to the best of
our capacity. And that means, ofcourse, if we're not scholars,
(14:50):
that we're not going to keeptrack of every single
development within, you know,the academic study of yoga, but
to still. You know, inform us sothat we don't, especially as
teachers, tell our studentsthings that don't really make
sense at all. So I would say,you know, there's an idea within
(15:14):
Indic Traditions that we havethree ways of, kind of making
sure that something is true. Wehave the scripture or the
tradition. We have our ownteachers, and then we have our
own experience, right? And so Iwould say that we work with all
of these things. So scripturewould both be, you know, the the
Indian scriptures, that Yogicand Tantric scriptures, but it
(15:38):
would also be, perhaps academicarticles and books, so that we
kind of keep track on Okay, butwhat do the scholars actually
say about this? And then we haveour own teachers, right? And
teachers that we hopefully havegreat trust in, and their
version of the story and theirknowledge. And then we have our
(15:58):
own experience in the questionof what yoga is good for, or
what yoga is supposed to do,right? We can look at them, the
historical scriptures, what ourteachers tell us, but we can
also see what has it actuallymeant for me in my life. So I
would say that we have to dependon all of these three things we
can't just say, Well, myexperience is that yoga is
(16:21):
right, because that kind ofleaves us a little ignorant.
Todd McLaughlin (16:27):
Agreed, agreed?
What? What? What is the originstory that you feel has come
true, or you see as truth?
Unknown (16:41):
Well, you can, you can
study with me, right? Or you can
read my book. It's kind of hardto give the full overview like
this. I agree. I agree. I wouldsay that the story that we hear
a lot about yoga being ancient,about yoga being, you know, this
essential, pretty much unmovedtradition throughout the ages
(17:05):
that has never changed. Youknow, in any way, we as
scholars, of course, say thatall religions, our spiritual
traditions, develop over time,in change according to different
cultures and contexts. And it'sthe same with yoga, of course.
So we have a development of yogafrom about, well, we would say
(17:29):
perhaps 500 BCE and and, andsince then, development in many,
many different ways. I used aswe have many different tantric
traditions, we have manydifferent yoga traditions,
right? And yoga has never meantjust one thing, but it has meant
(17:50):
many different things for peoplein different cultural contexts,
and it still develops, ofcourse. So I would not say that
yoga is just, you know, we haveone ancient, traditional,
authentic yoga, and then we havethis falsified new, right, but
(18:14):
that there are many differentforms of yoga, and that they're
all equally authentic, in a way.
But what we can also know aspractitioners, of course, is
that, just as with familyrecipes or whatever it is that
we're working with, we can knowwhat will be the outcome of
certain techniques if they havebeen tried and testified by
(18:36):
people before us, so that wedon't have to reinvent the wheel
every single time we step on theyoga mat, right? And that is
what I think, is the value ofkind of looking to tradition,
not wasting our time. Because ifwe are all really spiritual
seekers, we don't like to wastetime, right?
Todd McLaughlin (18:58):
I hear you too,
a great answer. I appreciate
that in your in your posts, youwrite about Indian Gods and
Goddesses, not just asmythological figures, but as
ways to express inner experiencefor someone who didn't grow up
in that culture. How might thesestories serve as tools for
(19:20):
personal insight, rather thansome distant symbolism. How? How
can we make these, these storiesreal for us in in our day?
Unknown (19:36):
Well, there's a
philosopher that said that myths
never were, but always are. Youknow, it's stories that never
were, but they always are,meaning they're happening right
now, right? And I know there's alot of people nowadays that say
that the Indian mythologicalstories, for example, that they
(19:58):
are history and. That isdebatable, of course, but the
way I work with stories is that,not to say that deities don't
have an objective existence,because they do, and I also work
with them in that way, but theway I work with deities through
(20:19):
mythology is very much to haveus embody the deity. And this is
also a tantric approach. And thetantric approach is that we
learn to embody and identifywith certain deities, and the
way I speak about them, then isas wisdom qualities. So we have
(20:39):
wisdom qualities, like Ganesha,like Saraswati, like Parvati,
Kali, whoever it is that wemight be working with, and we
realize that this is a wisdomquality that lies latent,
perhaps in us. Maybe it's verymuch alive, and we need to work
with it in a different way. But,the way I see these wisdom
(21:02):
qualities is that there areenergies that are present in the
world and also present withinus, and that we can learn to
work with them in certain waysand embody them in certain ways.
Todd McLaughlin (21:13):
Yeah, amazing.
Did you just what was the firstdeity that you feel you had
affinity with and or started tofeel you were pulled toward or
attracted to or curious in
Unknown (21:31):
this is so long ago,
right, that I find it hard to
say, well, it was that deity. Iknow that the first mantra that
I worked with was mostdefinitely the Om Namah, Shivaya
mantras. I would say in thatway, the Shaiva traditions or
Shiva was always present for me.
But I know that the first murti,the first statue of a deity I
(21:54):
bought was Ganesha, and I stillhave that murti, and it's quite
special, because I tend to kindof give things away all the
time. I don't tend to keepanything, but that theory, I
still have it, and I still dopuja for it every day. It's
sitting here in my kitchen, so Isee it all the time when I pass
Yeah, nice.
Todd McLaughlin (22:18):
And I'm
gathering from you, then you are
saying that in relation to thisevolution that's occurred for
you throughout your experienceof study and practice. Do do you
ascribe since that you'veevolved toward really
appreciating Shaiva, tantraphilosophy? Do you feel that
(22:42):
initial connection through Shivaand or Ganesh might have been on
purpose or without, withoutmistake? Yeah,
Unknown (22:53):
absolutely, I
definitely feel like these are,
these are mystical traditions.
You know, we can intellectualizethem all we want, but at the end
of the day, these are deeplymystical currents, and it's
amazing for me to see howeverything kind of falls into
place over time. And we haverealizations and things that we
(23:13):
might have, you know, studiedfor years, once the embodied
experience is there we go. Oh,all right, this is, you know,
that's what I always say when Itell the stories of the deities
that we can listen to them overand over and over again, because
every single time they willspeak to a different lived
(23:34):
experience in our lives, right?
So, the very first time that Istarted doing a sadhana for
Ganesha, and the realizationsthat I had then are going to be
very different from therealizations I have now, right?
And the embodied, the felt senseof Ganesha in my life, right?
(23:55):
And so in the Shakta traditions,for example, the goddess
traditions, we say that wealways open with mantras to
Ganesha. We always begin withGanesha. But it took me so many
years to realize that I hadstarted with Ganesha. And I know
that for my students too, when Itell them, Well, you know, you
(24:16):
should always shun to Ganeshafirst. You should always begin
with a sudden Africa Ganesha. Itcan take them so many years to
realize, oh, okay, I have tobacktrack, or this organic
development happened so that Ihad to go through this practice,
you know. So when it comes toShaiva Tantra, I think that was
(24:36):
always my path, because the veryfirst yoga schools that I was
educated within, like Anusarayoga, for example, had a strong
connection to Shaiva Tantra. Andso I think the Tantra and Shiva
was always a very, very strongpart of my path. And I mean, I
(24:59):
love. Are all deities. I can'tsay that I love all deities, but
I love a lot of deities, and Ihave a lot of knowledge about a
lot of deities, and I can feelthem when they are especially
approachable in the year cycle.
You know, we have giant teeth,we have birthday celebrations of
gods and goddesses. And so it'sbecause that wisdom quality, or
(25:21):
that energy, is especiallypresent in the world at that
time, right? And so I can feelthat, and I can adore a God like
Krishna, for example, at thattime of the year when he's
especially present. But that isnot my Ishta. That is not, you
know, that that aspect of theDivine that I keep coming back
to, while adiri, like Shiva, isso close to my heart, or
(25:45):
Sarasvati, the goddess oflearning and articulation and
the arts, is one that I devotemy life to.
Todd McLaughlin (25:55):
Yes, great
answer. Do. There's often a big
debate about whether modern yogastudents need to even study
classical texts, like sometimesI'll have students come in that
I'll mention books like BhagavadGita or the Mahabharata, or even
(26:17):
that might be a stretch for mostso yoga sutras. And there's
often I feel a little debateabout, like, why would I even
need to study that? I feel likeyou've done a great job of
already explaining why this isimportant. But I'm curious, from
your perspective, is itessential? And if so, how can we
engage with those teachings in away that honors the original
(26:39):
context while still making themrelevant.
Unknown (26:46):
Well, I would say that
a few years back, I would
definitely argue that we do not,at least not only need to study
the yoga sutra and the BhagavadGita, depending on what
worldview we hold aspractitioners. You might be
(27:06):
aware that the Bhagavad Gita andthe yoga sutra, they're both
grounded in a philosophicalsystem called Samkhya, which is
that dualistic philosophicalsystem, a very early
philosophical system that speaksabout liberation as separation
(27:28):
between the observer Purusha andthat which is observed, trakriti
nature, right? So it's basicallysaying, if you want to be
liberated, if you want toprogress in yoga, you have to
learn to stand apart from lifeand experience all of the
(27:48):
experiences in life, right? Donot get attached to your family.
Do not believe your mind. Do notget attached to the body. You
know, whatever it might be.
Well, tantic traditions have adifferent approach to reality,
seeing reality as the body ofthe goddess of Shakti, right? So
I would say that as a student ofyoga, and particularly as a
(28:11):
teacher of yoga, you're enteringinto a stream of knowledge, a
yoga cannon, where the yogasutra and the Bhagavad Gita are
some of the most important textsand you need to know about them
in order to be a good teacher ofyoga and in order to be able to
explain certain ideas to yourstudents. Having said that those
(28:32):
are not the only texts that youneed to study as a yoga teacher,
especially depending on whatkind of worldview you have.
Because something I do not agreewith is people having an
embodied practice. They want touse yoga in order to be,
perhaps, you know, a bettermother or a better father. They
(28:54):
want to be engaged inrelationship and in life, and
then they use a renunciate text,like the yoga sutra, to teach
that embodied philosophy. Itdoesn't make any sense, so I
think that you need to knowabout it, and it's a brilliant
text when it comes to mappingthe mind, understanding
(29:17):
meditation, you know, but weneed tantric text as well, I
would say, in the modern yogaworld. So absolutely, Bhagavata
is a beautiful text, you know, Ihave a very devotional bend. So
I love the Bhagavad Gita, and Ican also really appreciate yoga
sutra, as you know, a manualtowards meditation, but you need
(29:41):
to know what kind ofphilosophical system they're
grounded in, and you need toknow that there are other texts
as well.
Todd McLaughlin (29:52):
Yeah, great
point. Tuva and I noticed the
other day you made a post aboutthe Samkhya philosophy and the.
The tatwas And so the categoriesof existence, which I've always
found requires quite a bit ofserious study to try to wrap my
(30:12):
head around what is being taughtwhen I try reading about Samkhya
philosophy. And I'm curious, isit possible for you to explain
Samkhya philosophy for usnewbies that are looking at it,
going, What in the world isgoing on here? Like, what are
they talking about? Do you havea condensed version that would
(30:36):
would help preface then, if wewere to discuss the tatwas
According to tantric philosophy,and then maybe the correlation
between or these two systems.
Maybe number one, can you definethe word tatva for us?
Unknown (30:54):
Yeah, tatva means that
nest, so we often translate it
as principle or element, or, Iwould sometimes say, level of
reality. And definitely, if youbring the tattva chart up to
brand new students, they aregoing to be confused and run
away. But having said that, Ithink if you want to study so
(31:18):
called yoga philosophy, it's oneof the best tools that we have
to really understand thesimilarities between these
different systems and thedifferences and so Samkhya means
enumeration, and what it is,numbering is these different
(31:39):
levels of reality. So accordingto Samkhya, we have 25 tattvas,
25 levels of reality, meaningwhat we can experience in a
human consciousness, right? Andso in this tattva chart, we have
the highest level of reality,meaning, that's it, right? That
is the possible. That's thehighest possible level that your
(32:03):
consciousness can reach. Andaccording to Samkhya, that level
is purusha. And Purushatranslates to person, a
masculine person, but it isoften translated as witness
consciousness or individualconsciousness, and then the
other 24 tattvas stand apartfrom purusha, and they are all
(32:27):
connected to prakriti, tonature, everything that changes
and evolves, right? And so inthe time of the compilation of
the yoga sutra, the yoga sutrais very much influenced by
Buddhist philosophy. And as youmight be aware, the main thing
in Buddhist philosophy isSaravana dukam, everything is
(32:49):
suffering, right? Everything issuffering because everything is
constantly changing, and becauseof this impermanence, right? The
only thing that we can learn todo, according to Sankhya, is to
not identify with all everythingthat is changing, right? So what
is changing? The body ischanging the world around us is
(33:10):
changing our mood, is changingour emotions, our thoughts. So
the witness consciousness triesto stand apart from everything
that is changing in order to notsuffer, right? So this is pretty
much the view of classicalTantra, early early yoga. Not
classical Tantra, but classicalyoga, early yoga, and also an
(33:33):
aspect of Buddhist philosophy,right? But then, as classical
forms of tantra developed. Theysay they don't toss that earlier
Samkhya and tatvashar the way,because that's not the Indian
way. Usually, you build ontosomething that is already there
in existence. So they say, Yes,we honor you. We honor the
(33:55):
tradition. We say that all ofthis is true, but now we know
more. We've seen more, we'veseen higher levels of reality.
And actually Purusha is not thehigher, but you can go beyond
purusha, and actually then thehighest goal of a spiritual
development is not thisseparation, this aloneness, this
(34:16):
autonomy, but actually a unionbetween Shiva and Shakti,
consciousness and energy on amuch higher level. And that is
why it might be important forpeople to study the yoga sutra,
for example, because some peoplejust want to go straight to
Tantra. I think want to gostraight to all of that juicy
stuff, without really kind ofclimbing the tatvas and
(34:40):
realizing that, okay, this ishow far as I can go through my
intellect. This is as far as Ican go through witness
consciousness. But they want toskip all that and just just go
straight to these very loftytantric concepts without
actually being mature. For them.
So I would say that most of usthat really study Tantra in a
(35:02):
deep way now, we had our yearsof really dedicated yogic
discipline right before comingto Tantra. And I would say that
that is perhaps
Todd McLaughlin (35:20):
helpful.
Amazing, Tuva, great answer Icould follow. I followed all
that. So thank you so much. Ican see that I'm even though I
used my hands a lot, I like it.
No, my head is following yourhands. I know I sound like I'm
bouncing around their hands. Youknow, I noticed that you made
(35:40):
slight little nod toward thisidea in Samkhya with Purusha
being a male and so I'm curious,then, can you speak a little bit
about the role of gender in, Iguess, well, within Tantra,
(36:02):
because I know that's part ofyour forte, so that's why I'm
going here. But are you noddingtoward the fact that if we have
a system that puts a male god upat the top, that that limits a
good half of the population fromrealizing having having self
realization or liberation?
Unknown (36:24):
Well, Purusha is not a
God, right? Purusha is an aspect
of you. It's your witnessconsciousness. But the words in
Sanskrit, Purusha and prakritiare gendered, and so the word
Purusha is masculine and theword packet in nature is
feminine. And so we have thisidea often right, that the
(36:49):
masculine is more associatedwith a cool, unobserving
coolness, the capacity towitness and stand apart from
while the feminine is, you know,embodied, chaotic, changing,
always moving right. And we cansee that these ideas kind of
(37:11):
transfer into into contemporaryspirituality. So my PhD research
is about the construction ofgender in contemporary Tantra in
Europe. And so, of course, wehave a lot of ideas around
masculinity and femininity incontemporary spirituality that I
think are not always helpful foreither feminine or masculine
(37:35):
practitioners or women andfemale and male practitioners.
Todd McLaughlin (37:41):
Interesting. So
would you agree that then, when
we look at Shaiva Tantraphilosophy, that then we see the
characteristic of Shiva beingconsciousness and Shakti being
(38:02):
energy and that having a similarcorrelation to Purusha and
prakriti, with a kind of malegender toward the Shiva side And
the Purusha side and theprakriti and Shakti having this
(38:23):
female, gendered side, and thesimilarity between that. And
then, I guess my follow upquestion to that is, do you feel
there's benefit if I were toattempt to see Shiva as Shakti
and Shakti as Shiva? What likedoes that make Did that make
sense?
Unknown (38:44):
Yeah, I mean Purusha
and prakriti according to
Tantra, remember, theydeveloped, or Nando Shaiva
Tantra developed that tattvachart to have 36 levels instead
of 25 and so they would say thatthat highest tattva, according
to that system, is parama Shiva,the highest form of Shiva, or
(39:07):
sometimes known as ridaya, theheart, the combination of Shiva
and Shakti within Shaktasystems, Goddess oriented
systems, Shakti would be on topright, be the highest principle
of reality. But these systemwould see Purusha and prakriti
as contracted or limited formsof Shiva and Shakti, right? So,
(39:30):
Prakriti is a limited form ofShakti. Purusha is a limited
form of Shiva. They haveforgotten some of their true
nature, right? But they arestill, you know, connected to
consciousness and energy. Ithink what becomes problematic
in the Shaiva system, forexample, they will say that
(39:53):
Shiva consciousness, of course,is not a man and not only male
body. So to speak, haveconsciousness. All bodies do and
all bodies are made out ofShakti. They're all made out of
energy and creative capacity.
The root for the word Shakti,Shak means to be capable of
(40:15):
capacity, right? And sosomething that is interesting in
the tantric systems is that thegoddess is power, right? If
consciousness can do anything,it can do it because of Shakti.
So when we look at the dancingform of Shiva, for example,
Nataraja, he is said to havefive powers, five Shaktis, the
(40:38):
Shakti of consciousness, theShakti of bliss, the Shakti of
will or desire, the Shakti ofknowledge and the Shakti of
action. And he's performing thefive acts of consciousness,
destroying, creating,sustaining, hiding and
revealing, because he is full ofcreative capacity. So one of the
(41:02):
great differences between ShaivaTantra and Advaita Vedanta, for
example, would be that withinthe tantric system,
consciousness is full ofcreative capacity. It can do
something like our innerconsciousness. It creates all
the time, right? It comes upwith new ideas. It sends up
(41:22):
memories and images. This is ourinherent Shakti, and so using
that discernment again to seethat it's not a question of
dividing into feminine andmasculine or just or to always
try to say that that feminine ispassive in some way, but that
(41:44):
you know the feminine, accordingto this tradition, is powerful.
And if consciousness doesanything, it does it because of
Shakti.
Todd McLaughlin (41:57):
Yes, amazing.
Do you feel that therepresentation that we have of
imagery within the mythology ofShiva and Shakti, do try to
transcend that, or do you or nottranscend it? But Do you often
attempt and say your yogapractice or meditation practice,
(42:19):
or the way that you view theworld. Do we? Do we? Are we
pressed toward eventuallyevolving beyond seeing it on
that level? Or like, almostlike? Is that just a way for
humans to be able to wrap ourheads around it, and then
(42:40):
eventually we should let go ofthe visual representations that
we have of these differentideas. Or, I'm guessing, I'm
almost thinking that from thetantric view, it would be like,
No, you go right into it and youlike, should always embrace it
or utilize it and and and keepit real and use these ideas and
vision, visuals or statues orrepresentations as a way to go
(43:06):
deeper. Do you have thoughts onon is, does that make sense?
What I said?
Unknown (43:16):
Well, I would say that
the iconographical form of the
deities is a teaching tool,right? By looking at it, what
kind of bodily qualities does ithave? What kind of weapons or
tools Is it holding? Now, thisis teaching us something about
that wisdom quality. But whattemperature tradition will say
is, of course, this is not howthe deity really looks like,
(43:38):
right? This is, as you said, arepresentation that we can
adore, something we can showdevotion towards, because it
kind of looks like us. But themore true representation of the
Deity is the yantra, thegeometrical form, and the even
more true representation is themantra, the sonic form. So the
(44:00):
mantra is the diri according toTantra, and we learn more and
more to work with mantras as weenter tantric practices. I would
say, then again, you know,devotion is such a huge part of
these traditions. In ShaivaTantra, for example, which is a
very, you know, highintellectual tradition, still,
(44:25):
we see that some of the mostrevered teachers in the
tradition were great devotionalpoets, and they never stopped
loving the form of the Deity,even though they completely
transcended that form.
Todd McLaughlin (44:40):
Yeah, great
answer. Thank you. That made it
clear. I love that you broughtup the idea image of the yantra.
If you sit in front of a yantraand gaze at it, can you share
any type of realization?
Questions or experiences youhave.
Unknown (45:04):
I don't work with
gazing at Yantras, but I have
worked with constructing Yantrasfrom scratch, with some of my
beautiful collaborations atMystic art retreats, and it's
extremely challenging. We make ayantra from scratch, and it
(45:27):
really takes a lot of effort anddiscipline to really step into
the energy of that particulardeity and construct the body of
the Deity, so to speak. Youknow, and I don't worship those
Yantras, because they're notperfect, of course, since I just
constructed them as a beginner,but I would definitely recommend
(45:48):
that practice, because just asmeditation, it takes a lot, a
lot of concentration to reallyconstruct the yantra. Yeah.
Todd McLaughlin (45:56):
Wow. So Tuva.
Help me understand you.
Potentially would go into somesort of meditative space, have a
feeling of contact with a energyor deity, and then attempt to
(46:18):
diagram that through the visualof a yantra based off of the
experience. Am I? Am Iunderstanding that correctly?
That
Unknown (46:28):
would be an extremely
advanced practice, something
that the great seers of the pastand present can do right? But
what I've done is to practicewithin a tradition where a seer
has already seen the yantra,seen the form of the Deity, and
then instruct people in how toconstruct that deity. And then
(46:49):
you construct it, all the whilechanting the mantra of the
Deity, for example. And then youuse particular colors that you
know is associated with that DRen, so you construct the body
of the of the DD, and if you areable to install the DD properly
in the yantra, then you canworship it, right? But I'm a
(47:11):
very imperfect artist. I'm not,I'm not worshiping the Yantras
that I've done
Todd McLaughlin (47:16):
myself. Yeah,
understood. I get it. That's
That's so cool, though, it'samazing to think about now,
initially, in our conversation,you had made mention that these
myths are happening right now,like as opposed to reading and
studying a myth and thinkingthat's a neat story from the
(47:38):
past. And I right away, or Igather that you by having the
view that you stated of if wecan potentially study a myth and
then self introspect and seewhere that myth might be
revealed or appearing in our ownlives. Currently, that I guess
(48:02):
where my question is is, can youexplain a little bit about your
process of reading and studyingmyth, and then how to feel that
myth being alive in your lifecurrently, is there, is there
something we can do as apractitioner to I mean, I think
the answer is probably prettyclear right in front of me
(48:23):
already, just, just, just do it
Unknown (48:30):
in grace, and the grace
of just doing it right, because
it's grace that also makes us dowhatever we do and whatever we
engage in. But you know, there'sa lot of things that have just
happened over time in my lifethat I don't, as I said, I don't
really know when they began orhow it's not like I
intentionally set out to studymythology. I always loved
(48:53):
stories. I was always reading, Iwas always writing. I was always
interested in kind of bringingout the juice of a yoga
practice, making it taste more,you know. And so storytelling
and the deities really helped mewith that. And now it's say that
(49:14):
there's kind of no turning back.
I might be a crazy person, youknow, but then I have to kind of
live with that, because for me,all of life now is kind of
mythology. You know, when I lookaround and I see the news in the
world, and I see, you know,different people and the way
that I see them acting outarchetypes in different ways all
(49:35):
the time, and I see myself doingit as well, you know. So even
though I might not say it allthe time, I'm constantly seeing
deities. I'm constantly seeingarchetypes playing out in the
world in different ways andshowing their patterns, you
know, in different ways. Andit's, it's a magical life in a
way. Yeah,
Todd McLaughlin (49:57):
I agree. I
agree. Can you share? Share a
myth or a story with this now.
Unknown (50:04):
Oh, well, one
Todd McLaughlin (50:08):
that might you
made mention. Well, I mean, I
think something that's reallyprevalent right now for all of
us is hearing stories in thenews like you made mention
hearing what is happening in theworld, and then obviously where
we're getting our storytellingfrom, that might be, well, I was
(50:30):
going to say questionable, butto be real, I hear stories from
you on social media. Soobviously, social media isn't
all just slanted one way or theother, there's incredible
amounts of information availableto us at all moments, coming
from all angles and all channelsand all directions. So but I
(50:51):
curious if there's a myth thatyou're seeing played out
currently when you do engage inwatching the your world, our
world,
Unknown (51:02):
as you said. You know,
storytelling is incredibly
powerful, and that is why all ofthe leaders of the world are
fighting to be the one tellingthe story. You know, the
credible story. But I can justsay the wisdom quality that is
quite present for me at themoment is a mahavidya, a great
(51:22):
wisdom goddess known asdumavati, and her giant tea, her
victory or her appearance,sometimes called her birthday.
It was used last week. And thisis one of the least worshiped
goddesses that we have in thetantric tradition, because she's
(51:43):
very fierce and difficult tobehold. She's known as the
oldest one yishta. It's her fullmoon today, as we're speaking.
Dumavati means the one who ismade out of smoke, and so she is
(52:03):
a widow. She's usually dressedin white, which is not an
auspicious color in India, it'sthe color of funerals and of
having lost something, she hasno ornament. She's usually seen
seated on a chariot with nobodypushing it or pulling it. So she
(52:27):
is often described as a womangoing nowhere, and she is very
much associated with periods ofgreat loss, of frustration, of
disappointment, of seeingsomething go up in smoke that
you might have worked for very,very long time to manifest,
right? So the great goddess ofthe end of time, the tralaya.
(52:52):
And so there are many esotericinterpretations of dumabati, but
I also think of her in a veryyou know, here and now way, as
the way that older women aremarginalized in society, for
(53:12):
example, and the way that womenare constantly told to look
young and act young and and kindof shy away from old age in any
way that they can. And also, ofcourse, being able to look at
the difficult things in life, tonot when somebody comes to us
with grief, to not immediatelytry to make them feel better,
(53:34):
or, you know, quickly move awayfrom whatever is filling us with
difficult emotions and also thestate of the world that we are
in right now, to dare look atthe misery, to dare look at the
hunger, to dare look at all ofthe terrible things that are
going on around us, and thenmove into action, if we can,
(53:55):
right, but to not shy away fromeverything that is going up in
smoke around us, right? So dumatis very present for me since a
few weeks back, and though wemight try to avoid her, there is
really no way, because she'scoming for us all.
Disappointment, lost, grief iscoming for us all. So we might
(54:18):
as well worship her, right? Wemight as well say, Okay, you're
here. Welcome, you know, how canI, how can I be with you? How
can I tolerate you?
Todd McLaughlin (54:28):
Oh, man, that's
beautiful. Tuva, I'm so happy to
hear that, because when I'vealways, I've always, kind of
been looking at the calendar andI'm waiting for when the full
moon will land on my birthday,and it hasn't happened yet, ever
since I started to fall in lovewith the full moon. And so my
(54:49):
mom's birthday is today, and shepassed away a few years ago. And
so when I looked at the calendarand I saw that Wednesday, we're
recording. This on June 11, iswas going to be the full moon.
And I went, Oh man, it's mymom's Full Moon birthday. And I
just felt so, just kind ofexcited, you know, in a way. So
(55:11):
then when we scheduled this, andI saw, Oh, we got it on
Wednesday, oh, it's on the fullmoon on my mom's birthday, I was
like, yeah. So now, now hearingyou say, explain the myth. I'm
sorry. Can you please repeat thegoddesses who the name of the
Goddess? We're talking domavati.
Domavati. Thank you. Sorry,dumavati, for missing that on
the first go. I just feel like,I just feel like hearing that
(55:36):
story is just warming me upbecause of everything. I mean,
that's so beautiful, especiallyjust accepting, like you said,
who we are, and that thatintense energy of trying to,
like, hold back on our agingprocess, or just all of that
energy that comes with theintensity and challenge of it. I
(56:00):
just think you bringingattention to it is so important.
Unknown (56:08):
And thank you for
sharing about your mother. Thank
you always almost brought me totears. Beautiful for her to be
celebrated on yesterday's NewMoon, and for us to celebrate
the older women in our lives,yeah, wishing for them to be
something that they cannot be,you know, but, but really
(56:29):
appreciating their wisdom andhonoring them. Yes,
Todd McLaughlin (56:34):
wow. Tova, you
know, where so you're working
towards your PhD, and do youhave the vision of discontinued
study and teaching? I see thatyou're offering a retreat in
India. And can you speak alittle bit about for you, what,
(56:56):
what it's like for you to go toIndia having, I guess. Let me
preface this question. The firsttime I went to India, I was so
overwhelmed. And then when Icame home and I started doing
more study and reading anddiving deeper into philosophy,
then the second time I went,Wow, I saw things differently,
(57:17):
and I could, I could start toappreciate which temples were
affiliated with which particulargod or goddess, and the
different characteristics ofmarkings and sari colors and
different things that werehappening which I in no way
(57:38):
claim to understand fullyeverything I saw, because, wow,
India is so amazing. Can youtell me a little bit about how
you what it's like for you whenyou go based on your passion for
yoga and philosophy?
Unknown (57:58):
Well, first time I went
to India. I was 25 I think, and
then, you know, I was so intoyoga. I was there for seven
weeks. I traveled around alittle, but I spent most of the
time in Rishikesh, used in anashram, just doing hardcore
(58:19):
practice, you know, from fouro'clock in the morning till
evening, you know, and I washappy with that back then. Now I
have much more of an interestin, as you said, the temples and
all of the sacred sites. And sothen I was, I just wanted to go
in, right? Because I was in myShiva period, and then Shakti
came into my life, and I wantedto see all the beauty around me.
(58:42):
So when I went there, when I was25 I was sure that I was going
to go back within a year or two.
But then I had my first child,and I had my second child, and I
became a single mother, and Ihad a few difficult years, you
know, with my children fulltime, not being able to make any
money, really struggling. And sothe invitation to come back to
(59:03):
India now was just like thegoddess, you know, inviting me,
drawing me back. So now I'm ableto go through work, and I have
great collaborators in India.
And what I do with mystic artretreats, for example, is to go
to different Shakti pizzas, theseats of powers, the places that
(59:24):
are filled with the Energy ofThe Goddess. And I'm incredibly
best blessed to be able to visitall of these beautiful places
and and use my love formythology and philosophy to
teach students that come with methere. So there are, you know, I
don't teach live so much anymorein Sweden because I have a full
(59:45):
time position in the university.
A lot of I teach a lot online.
So these are basically the timeswhen I can see students live and
spend time with them and reallygo deep into the. Traditions,
wow, wow. Of course, now I get,like the best of India. Well,
(01:00:07):
when I went as a 25 year old,you know, I was not a structured
traveler. When I was show up, Ihad no hotel booked. I had no
travel plan. I would just gowherever the wind brought me
basically, you know. So it waskind of risky traveling like
that by yourself as a femaleback then, and I'm sure now as
(01:00:28):
well, but I always managed now,of course, I travel in a very
secure and organized way, whichis a lot safer for my family,
too. Amazing. Yes, you know fromthe moment that I knew when we
decided in the beginning of thisyear that we were going to go to
Kamakhya, which is the mostfamous, famous Shakti pizza that
(01:00:52):
we have in in India, that wewere going to go there in
November, I've been longing eversince, you know, it's gonna be,
it's gonna be beautiful,
Todd McLaughlin (01:00:59):
incredible,
Amazing, Tuva, oh my gosh,
that'd be so fun. Are you? Whatis the role that you have at the
university? What is yourteaching role?
Unknown (01:01:08):
But I'm doing my PhD,
so mostly what I do is my
research, but I also teach somecourses. I teach in the basic
courses for religious studies, Iteach Hinduism and Buddhism, and
I also teach course on thehistory of yoga, which is like a
(01:01:30):
new course that we start thatactually drew us, a lot of
people to the university.
Todd McLaughlin (01:01:36):
Amazing. Could
you when you were 25 Do you
think you could have flashedforward to the future to see
yourself teaching yoga andhistory around Buddhism and
Hinduism at a university level.
Could you have, did you dreamthat early on or or would you
have said, No way, because, youknow, you mentioned, like the
unstructured traveler, like windblows north, I go north. You
(01:01:58):
know, were you could you haveseen that? Did you have that
passion early or or would yousay it's taken just dedication
and and attentiveness to gethere?
Unknown (01:02:12):
I think I did see it,
but I
Todd McLaughlin (01:02:17):
amazing control
in
Unknown (01:02:20):
because, as I told you,
I was I started teaching in a
high school when I was just 19.
So I've done a lot of teachingin school in my life. Up until
just a few years back, I havebeen teaching in different
schools, teaching philosophy,teaching French and so on. So I
would say that I was always kindof aiming for teaching in the
(01:02:44):
university, because that's it.
That's, I would say it's this.
It's the simplest way ofteaching. Of course, it demands
a lot when it comes to yourknowledge, but it's really hard
work to teach in the school withkids, you know, as you might be
aware, and this is just gettingmore and more difficult in
Sweden. I mean, bless all theteachers here, it is really
(01:03:06):
rough to teach in the schoolsystem. So I think I was always
aiming for that, even though Ihad no idea how that would
happen, yeah. I think being ateacher, being a teacher within
these particular subjects. Yeah,I could have, yeah, yeah, known
that that would happen.
Todd McLaughlin (01:03:27):
That's cool,
too. Wow. I I'm so grateful to
have this opportunity. I I willcontinue to learn from you, and
I haven't. I'm going to orderyour book. I can't wait to read
it. It is called and it'savailable on Amazon. Everyone
can find and also provide thelink in the in the description
(01:03:49):
of where you can order itdirectly from India. You said
your book was published by apublisher in India, which is
amazing. Congratulations. It'stitled yoga and tantra, history,
philosophy and mythology, soeveryone can find that super
easy. And Tuva, I reallyappreciate you taking time. I
(01:04:10):
know you're busy, and I am verygrateful for your generosity and
and how sweet you are inresponding to me. And so thank
you so much. Is there anythingthat you would like to leave us,
leave us with, or send us offwith, or not leave us, but we'll
join in, and we'll chime in onyour on your social media. You
(01:04:32):
do an incredible job. So Ireally want, hopefully everyone
listening will go and follow youand and every day I see you
posting so much interestingstuff that I I'm fascinated by
so but is there anything thatyou would like to share before
we conclude?
Unknown (01:04:51):
No, just thank you,
Todd, it's been lovely speaking
with you. Thank you for yourgenerosity and your
appreciation. And as you said,you can find my. Online courses
through my teachable platformand my link tree on Saraswati
studies on Instagram. Of course,I taught a course on the vignana
(01:05:11):
Bhairava Tantra, which is atantric meditation manual,
earlier this spring. So thatcourse is up for self study now,
and hopefully, if I find thetime this autumn, I'm going to
teach a course on Navaratri, onthe Nine Nights of The Goddess.
So focusing on the Devi mahatmyaand Kundalini and some of the
(01:05:34):
most beloved goddesses in thegoddess traditions, that is
what's coming up. And of course,the kamcha retreat in November.
We still have a few spots leftif you want to join us in India.
Amazing.
Todd McLaughlin (01:05:47):
And then just
one last question, when I went
on your teachable are they alltaught in English, or some
taught in Swedish and some inEnglish? I just wanted to
clarify, yeah,
Unknown (01:05:58):
so there's, there are a
lot of courses in Swedish, but I
think you perhaps five or fourin English, and it's the ones on
top, so you can easily see, andalso, when you open up to read
more about the courses, you cansee if it's written in English
then the course. But there's acourse on the history philosophy
and mythology of yoga, which iskind of the flagship course.
(01:06:21):
Then there's a course on KashmirShaivism, the heart of classical
Tantra. Course on the dasamahavidyas, the 10 tantric
wisdom goddesses and the vignanaBhairava. Course the tantric
meditation, which, of course,also have a Tantra, a lot of
tantric philosophy in it. Sowhat's up for now in English,
Todd McLaughlin (01:06:43):
well, thank you
so much. Tuva, I really
appreciate it. I can't wait tocan you continue to learn from
you?
Unknown (01:06:50):
Thank you. Thank you so
much.
Todd McLaughlin (01:07:01):
Native yoga
Todd cast is produced by myself.
The theme music is dreamed up byBryce Allen. If you like this
show, let me know if there'sroom for improvement. I want to
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