November 19, 2025 • 58 mins
Aromatherapy can be more than a pretty scent—it can be a reliable wellness tool and a powerful retail differentiator. We sat down with Pranarōm’s national educator, Liza Dawkins, to unpack how safety, sourcing, and smart training turn essential oils into solutions customers can trust. From countering social media hype to using batch testing and Certificates of Analysis, we share practical steps to elevate credibility without slipping into fear or elitism.
We explore the tug‑of‑war between online convenience and in‑store experience, then show how to win on both fronts. Teach your team to ask outcome‑based questions and offer cross‑department solutions that pair aromatherapy with herbs, supplements, and grocery staples. Learn why diffusion still counts as systemic exposure, how oxidation undermines safety, and when a smaller bottle is actually the better buy. You’ll hear specific ways to position therapeutic blends next to sinus, stress, and sleep sets, and how to use subtle, high‑quality scent to anchor memory and comfort inside your store.
Seasonal marketing comes alive here: meet customers where they are with timely content and micro‑workshops that translate to real‑world results. We also talk transparency—organic standards, constituent profiles, ethical sourcing—and how to honor local makers who do the work even if they can’t afford every seal. If you want to build trust over trends, keep your staff longer, and create a store that people choose for guidance as much as goods, this conversation gives you tactics to start tomorrow.
Enjoyed this conversation? Follow, rate, and share the show so more natural retailers can build smarter, safer, and more connected communities. Got a question or a challenge we should tackle next? Email us at info@naturalproductsmarketer.com.
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Email: info@naturalproductsmarketer.com
About Tina Maddock
Since 2014, Tina has worked with multiple natural products businesses, discovering how to market their CBD products online, without having their payment processor shut them down, to letting customers talk about their health issues those products have helped them solve. She knows first hand how experts like you offer the best products and a superior customer experience, that is why she is committed to helping you find an easy way to grow your natural product business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liza Docken (00:00):
Because education is always the key.
I think things work better instores if if the staff is
educated.
Um, but then there's thetrickiness, right?
Because I think the other thingis that when stores are wanting
to have me come in and educate,it's because the turnover seems
to be pretty high on the retailside.
And that's tricky too, becausehow do we how do we enhance
(00:22):
retention?
Tina Maddock (00:23):
Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer
Podcast.
I'm your host, Tina Matdock.
On this podcast, you'll hearfrom manufacturers, retail
owners and operators, and otherbusiness experts that will help
you grow your business so youcan serve more people and change
more lives.
So, of course, thank you forbeing here.
And I would love for you tojust take a moment and introduce
(00:46):
yourself and talk about how yougot into natural products.
Liza Docken (00:50):
Yeah, thanks.
Um, I'm Liza Dawkins, and I'mthe national educator at
Pronaroom.
We are an organic aromatherapybrand.
And my journey to the naturalproducts world is sort of
through my hippie dad, who, youknow, I remember him bringing me
my first natural deodorantstick and being like, you should
(01:10):
maybe try this.
So this was in my teens, andthere was a health food store in
our neighborhood.
So this was back in the 90s,and um I had, you know, had done
all my things and I had beenworking other places.
And then I moved to Norway togo to art school.
And on my return, I needed ajob.
And it was me walking past thehealth food store that my dad
(01:34):
had always taken me to, and theyhad a help wanted sign.
And I was like, well, let'sjust see.
And they hired me on the spot,and then I've been in the
industry basically ever since, alittle bit off and on in my um
early 30s, but it's just sort oflike a kiss mit moment.
So um that's really where myjourney began.
(01:54):
And so I worked on the retailside actually for about 20 years
and then um came to Pronorumafter that.
So the bulk of my experience inthis industry is on the retail
side.
I managed and you know did allthose kinds of things.
I was a buyer, but um yeah, nowI'm really happy because
education is I love to learn andI love to share what I learn.
Tina Maddock (02:16):
So how long were you in Norway?
I'm so curious.
Liza Docken (02:19):
Oh, so that was a year.
Um, let's see.
Yeah, it was a year.
So they have these folk highschools, and that means that
between high school anduniversity, you get three years
to try these schools that are ayear-long program.
And that means that you can trysomething before you get into
university and make your bigdecision as to what you might
(02:42):
study.
They also have mandatory ummilitary service, but in and
amongst all of that, you can goto these folk high schools, and
they're, you know, mine was anart track, um, but at my school,
there were circus tracks andhorse training tracks.
So it was like this very coolamalgamation of three different
(03:02):
things that really, if you thinkabout it, could actually all be
intertwined.
But yeah, they have them allover the country.
And um, my grandparents werefirst generation um here
Norwegians, and so my dad hadgone to a folk high school, and
so then I went.
I don't think my daughter'sgonna go, but uh, it's a really
beautiful way to a take a gaphere, but to really feel out
(03:26):
like we should be doing thathere.
It's such a beautiful idea tohave that opportunity to feel
out, like you can doautomechanic.
I would love to go be an automechanic, so this is why I
always give this example, butyou can go and learn anything,
it seems, um, for a year and seehow you like it.
And so then they don't wastetheir education in the way I
(03:47):
feel some people do.
Tina Maddock (03:49):
Well, also, I mean, I never think that
education or learning is awaste, and we will get back on
track, everyone, in a moment.
But um, I am watching someyoung people, whether they're
between high school and collegeright now or college and
careers.
And there is this sense becausethings are so expensive to get
education here right now, thatif you pick a thing, then that's
(04:13):
the thing you have to do.
And I love that idea of just alittle bit of experimentation
and realizing that, I mean, evenyour natural products journey,
mine as well.
I didn't start out or go tocollege for this or or say this
was what I wanted to do with mylife.
You kind of find your way intoyour place.
(04:34):
And so it's nice if you canexperiment a little bit and it's
not like high stakes.
Right.
Right, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I we maybe we should do someof that with the natural
products industry and offeryoung people the opportunity to
come into retail or to get someeducation around that.
That would be very cool.
(04:55):
Uh, Sinpa, if you're listening,I'm on board.
Yeah, I'll support it.
Yeah, for sure.
All right.
Well, tell us a little bitabout you presented at Soho.
It's one of the reasons that Icontacted you to see if you
would be on the podcast becauseyou were there on the ground
where there were plenty ofmanufacturers and plenty of
(05:15):
retailers.
And so I'm just curious, like,what were you hearing while you
were there?
Things that people are afraidof, challenges, or things that
people are excited about.
Liza Docken (05:26):
I think um, in terms of retail in a broad
sense, I think there's obviouslysome struggle with online
versus in in-store.
And you know, I'm I'm prettyold school and I really love
being in a place and hands-on,interacting with a human being.
(05:50):
But I also totally understandthe desire for the convenience
of being able to shop online.
And so, how do we how do wesurvive on both sides?
You know, how can we make itwork for everyone?
And I think that's one of themain things that I heard a lot
of.
Um, but there was also a lot ofenthusiasm, you know, specific
(06:13):
to what I know in this industryin terms of aromatherapy.
There is a lot of interest inbroadening our horizons in terms
of how we use at leastessential oils, right?
There's usually, you know,people understand an oil to be
good for this or for that.
And really, when we can broadenthat and see where an essential
(06:36):
oil can be applied outside ofthose quintessential or usual
applications, um, I think that'sfun.
And so, of course, as aneducator, my passion is to
educate.
My passion is to like learn howwe can spread that, because
education is always the key.
I think things work better instores if if the staff is
(06:58):
educated.
Um, but then there's thetrickiness, right?
Because I think the other thingis that when stores are wanting
to have me come in and educate,it's because the turnover seems
to be pretty high on the retailside.
And that's tricky too, becausehow do we how do we enhance
retention?
Um, I think retention supportssales.
(07:20):
So being able to see that in abigger picture, um, you know, I
think it can start with at leastsomewhat the education piece.
Of course, workplace culture isgreat, but I can't influence
that.
But you know, um, so retailers,you know, and I'm thankful that
there's good and and sort ofdifficult moments.
(07:41):
Um, because if there weren'tany good, then what would we be
doing here?
Um so I heard a lot about thosetwo things in particular, just
in terms of how can we how canwe better support the store, but
then better support thecustomers via that support in
the store.
Tina Maddock (08:00):
Yeah, and you know, I do think that the more
education opportunities that yougive people, whether it's about
products, how to sell, how tointeract with people, or just
leadership training, does makeyour store a little bit more
sticky for your customers.
I mean, for your employees.
And when your employees aresticky and they start to behave
(08:22):
in line with your values, um,then it makes your customers
more sticky to your store.
So some of those things, it'shard because we do have
transient um employees rightnow.
It's a little bit differentthan it's been before.
Staffing's always been aproblem.
This is not a new thing.
(08:44):
It's always been um sort of awrestling match, but this looks
a little bit different than itused to.
People are in and out and theydon't mind leaving faster than
normal.
And also, there are a lot ofpeople that are like, wait a
minute, I have the opportunityto work from my house, or I get
more flexible hours when I dothings like this.
So I do think there's anopportunity for stores to be
(09:07):
really curious about how do weget flexible enough for these
employees to want to stickaround.
But also, what are the thingswe can offer that somewhere else
is not going to offer them?
Education, leadershipexperience, and opportunities,
opportunities to get out thereand do some of the things that
we always talk about.
So some of these marketingtactics, if you invite some of
(09:28):
your employees in to participatein those and even drive them,
especially if you're not doingthem right now, perfect
opportunity to give someone achance to do something that's
not necessarily on the floor orstocking shelves or whatever it
is.
You might invite them into amore creative opportunity.
So yeah, I agree that that thisis a real thing to look at.
(09:52):
Like, how do we becomeattractive to um to for people
to stay working with us?
But I think that translates tohow do we become attractive for
the customers?
And one of the things that youwere talking about is this sense
of you like to get out therewith the people and shop
sometimes just for theexperience of having another
human being to talk to.
(10:13):
And um, yeah, online offers aconvenience, but if you have
things that are exciting or anexciting reason to come to the
store, there's a demonstration,there's a workshop, there's some
community event that's beingheld at your store, people are
more likely to come more oftenand feel like they've got a
little bit of a communityhappening.
(10:34):
Yeah.
Um but tell us a little bitmore about, you know, essential
oils online competition.
We talked about this a littlebit when you and I were having a
discussion before.
And I find it reallyinteresting that essential oils,
especially, um, have a lot ofinfluencers and MLMs that are
out there.
And you guys are offering alittle bit of a different
(10:55):
experience, and there are thingsthat are important to you that
are values that you hold thatmight be a differentiator in
stores.
Liza Docken (11:02):
Yeah, I think, oh man, I have I have to find a
good balance here because I havestrong opinions about it.
But I my concern when it comesto you know the sort of
onslaught of options online, andthen when you also get into the
MLMs, there's a lot of focusthere on informing for sales
(11:30):
versus what I really focusedtoward, and that's educating for
safety.
And so the difference betweeneducation for safety and
informing for sales is obviousalready, but it will incline
people to overstate, um, enhancethe abilities.
(11:52):
You know, social media isreally interesting because it
definitely, when there aretrends online, we see our sales
spike in certain products basedon what's happening out there.
And there's a lot of dangerousinformation circling in those
moments because they'll justdecide that an oil is suddenly
the heel all, cure all magicpotion.
(12:14):
Yeah.
And they are profoundlysupportive for our health, but
you really need to know whatyou're doing, how you're using
them, um, you know, without eventouching on that internal
versus external application orusage, you still have to be
incredibly careful when it comesto using essential oils.
(12:35):
So online is great and verylittle that can be said.
You can't really interact withthe customer.
You can make infographics, buteven with those, you have to
stay really general, more sothan you even would in person
for Dé compliance, it seems,with a lot of online retailers.
(12:55):
So it's um it's this trickyplace.
And so I try to get on socialmedia, you know, at least once a
week just to educate on someelement, um, just to try to,
again, to balance out what's outthere, because there's a lot of
not necessarily misinformation,but yes, sometimes, and then
sometimes just not enoughinformation so that they don't
(13:18):
understand how to use it oncethey buy it.
And then they're just left totheir own devices.
And unfortunately, in thiscountry, if a little bit is
good, then we think a lot isbetter, and that is so the
opposite of true with essentialoils in particular.
So we have to be so careful.
Um, but I think that you know,we're finding ways.
(13:39):
I mean, we as in a uh market,like, you know, a lot of
retailers are starting to havetheir online stores.
Um, and so I'm seeing wherethey can maybe they post a video
and it's one of their staffmembers and it's sharing, hey, I
we have this new product, andhere's how you use it, and come
into the store and we'll helpsupport you if you want more
(14:00):
information.
I think that's a really greattactic because it it initially
gives information but invitesthem in.
Um, and I think when a customerknows that they can go in and
get more um information, thenthey're more likely to do that
than if they were gonna try anddo their online shopping with
the same store.
Tina Maddock (14:19):
So Yeah.
You know, one of the thingsthat brings up for me is you you
can remix a lot of social mediaum things these days and giving
attribution to the originalproducer or whatever.
But um I I think you canattract a lot of people by going
further on explanations, likehere's what you've been hearing,
(14:39):
and you can even show like whathas been said by someone else.
And here's what I'd like foryou to know don't forget that
you need this, that, and theother, or this is the best way
to use this in that case, and orum have a you know, not um not
overdoing it in certain areas.
(15:00):
The the I was talking to astore um owner the other day,
and he was like, I'm theanti-TikTok guy because I'm
constantly going on and saying,you might have heard this on
TikTok.
Let me help.
unknown (15:16):
Yeah.
Tina Maddock (15:16):
Here's maybe why we don't even carry that
product, which is great.
I mean, I think you can get alot of respect from your
consumers that way, but also youcan go further in explaining
how to use things or making surethat things are safe.
And I think that will garner alot of um social media
(15:39):
following.
But again, it just gives yougives trust to your store,
especially if it's not aroundI'm trying to get you to buy
more of this.
I'm actually telling you, maybeit's not always the right
product for you, but come by andwe can talk to you about what
might be.
Liza Docken (15:54):
Well, absolutely.
I mean, the first example thattypically pops into my head is
you know, this sort of auraaround frankincense.
And yes, is it wonderful?
It's a lovely oil and it's dearto my heart.
And the way many people use it,you know, I can think of three
(16:15):
examples that would be bettersubstitutions depending on the
application.
Um and that gets tricky becausepeople don't want to hear that.
They they're, you know, they'rethey get tenacious.
They're like, no, no, no, it'sfrankincense or nothing in this
one example.
And it's like, I understand.
And let's think about theplant, let's think about your
(16:35):
body, let's think about the youknow, the need.
Um, yeah, it I could go on andon about that, but I'll I'll
stop there.
But it's it is a veryinteresting influence.
Um, that obviously back in theday when I was in retail, we did
not have that at all.
It was really driven by thecommunity.
(16:56):
So um, I mean, I remember whenum I live in Minneapolis and the
Somali community has beengrowing quite a bit since the
90s um from refugees and thingslike that.
And with the higher populationof Somali people, we had more
drive for black seed oil.
Oh, and like that goosebumps alittle bit because we weren't
(17:16):
really talking about it.
We weren't thinking about it,and now it's everywhere and
everyone knows about it.
But that was really driven, youknow, by that.
And those kinds of influencesin retail, I think, are really
cool and interesting.
Um, it's not to say that socialmedia is all bad, but it tends
to be, you know, so sensationaland so over the top that it
(17:39):
doesn't always serve us, youknow, as in terms of our health
and wellness.
unknown (17:44):
Yeah.
Tina Maddock (17:44):
So if I'm just thinking from a marketing
perspective, like what mightthat mean to me?
Let's take fragrancefrankincense, for example, and
you could go on to social mediaand be like, five reasons
frankincense might not be theright oil for you.
Right.
Yeah.
Which is great because then youbecome the consultant, yeah.
Versus just the place I buy athing, because we all know that
(18:08):
if you're that, you're very notsticky.
It's going to be price-driventhat people are coming to you
versus being the consultant,which again goes back to
education.
Like you have to know yourcraft in order to be a good
consultant on the floor.
But those are greatopportunities to just have a
quick little reel.
(18:28):
And people start to trust youmore the more that you talk
about things like that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
So talk to me a little bitabout some.
Uh, here's what I see and hearwith essential oils sometimes.
Um, they're they can beprice-driven because people
don't understand the differencesbetween the different producers
(18:49):
of essential oils or thesourcing background.
Um, so walk me through a littlebit of that when a customer
group, like your entire customergroup, is is walking toward
that lower priced item in thestore.
What should we be doing toeducate people?
Or how do we become competitiveagainst it's always the lower
(19:11):
priced item?
Liza Docken (19:13):
Yeah, this is a great question because I think
about this a lot in terms of,you know, having been in retail,
understanding that, you know,it's good to offer a range of
pricing.
And um what I think needs to bemore widespread is the
knowledge that essential oils, Icall them the wild west of the
(19:36):
wellness world still.
Because it's one of thosethings where you can find oils
that say pure or say natural ormight even claim a therapeutic
grade.
There's no certification orcertifying body that can back
that up.
And so you could have asynthetic oil, not naturally
derived, or partially naturallyderived and partially synthetic,
(19:59):
but any amount of syntheticimmediately is gonna throw off
the endocrine system.
So not a good idea, but theycan still say pure because no
one's gonna check to see.
And so um, I think that when wedon't have supporting documents
for an oil, we should be verywary of using it.
(20:21):
So, what I mean by that is asthe example, pranorum, we offer
a certificate of analysis onevery single batch of every
single essential oil.
So if people are curious aboutit, the certification goes
through, lists every singleconstituent present there, um,
shows its organic certification,shows its Latin binomial, you
know, and this testing isn'tit's like it's not we're doing
(20:42):
that.
Um, they get tested before weget them to ensure that we're
actually getting what we wantbecause the way we recommend
using essential oils, weabsolutely have to have that
information.
And so that's the other piece,too, is you know, when it comes
to educating on how to use oils,um, I have to be very clear
when I talk about oils that whatI'm sharing is based
specifically on the oilsPranaroom offers because I don't
(21:05):
know what other brands aredoing.
I don't work there, I don't seetheir sourcing, I don't see if
they're manipulating by mixinglavenders or synthesizing um,
you know, the amount of lavenderessential oil that is sold in
the market far exceeds what thisplanet can grow.
And so we have to be clearthat, like, okay, how do we
ensure that what we're buying isin fact from you know, plant
(21:28):
material, first of all, andideally organic plant material.
Um, and so I get a little bitwarm when I talk about this
because it's really importantbecause it I get it, you know,
and one of the things I hear alot in terms of buying the less
expensive or even saying I don'tneed an organic essential oil
(21:51):
is when people say it's becauseI'm diffusing.
So I'm not using it internallyor topically.
And so I as gently andthoughtfully as I can inform
them that you're still consumingit to some degree.
You're breathing it in, it'sbeing absorbed by your lungs.
The lung tissue is taking inscent molecules are in the air,
(22:11):
right?
All scent is particulate, whichis fascinating and kind of
creepy all at the same time.
But that's why certainessential oils aren't great in
diffusers or at certain levels.
But if you were to do a bloodtest with someone who's been
diffusing for a half an hour,you would find transit levels of
that essential oil in theirblood.
So it's not nothing to diffuse,and a lot of people diffuse all
(22:35):
day every day, which would bekind of wild.
So that's an important piece toremember too, and that the
amount of essential oil we needisn't that much, and so buying
these massive bottles isn'tnecessary, we don't need to
always be buying these hugevalue-sized bottles.
(22:58):
Oftentimes, we only need asmall amount, you know, and then
I start thinking about likewhat is the shelf life of an
essential oil once it's opened.
It varies greatly depending onwhat type of oil you're using.
So chances are your oil isoxidized.
I know so many people who havebottles and bottles of essential
oils in their closet orcupboard, they've had them for
(23:20):
years, they're likely oxidized,so then you're not using them
for anything but cleaningbecause once oxidized, you're
not diffusing, you're not usingtopically, you're sure, you're
not taking them internally.
So there's there's so many waysin which um you know we can
share information.
(23:41):
Another example in terms of youknow, why do we want to invest
in an essential oil?
If you think about lavender isthe panacea, so it's the most
popular essential oil, it takes2,000 pounds of lavender
flowering tubs, that's theweight of an adult bison, to
(24:02):
make one gallon of essentialoil.
Tina Maddock (24:04):
Oh my goodness.
Liza Docken (24:05):
And that's staggering when you think about
the land mass required to growthe plant material for a small
amount of liquid.
And I think then we start tosee why you would want to invest
to make sure that you aregetting the type of lavender
you're looking for.
You then want to invest in anorganic oil because you're
(24:25):
getting concentrated chemicals,otherwise, that have been
sprayed on the plant material.
And so you're there's it'slayered, it's so layered.
Um and so the ways to supportstores would be pick the element
that makes the most sense toyou, and then start there.
(24:46):
And if you know you build onthat, um, because if I say
here's all the reasons why, it'soverwhelming, but take the
example that makes the mostsense to you and then help your
customers understand thatbecause if the responsibility
starts with the pronoun, forexample, for ethical forcing,
then it's in our recommendedusage, but the responsibility is
(25:08):
also on the consumer not to usea whole bottle in a day because
that would be wild, right?
It's unsafe, it's not worth,it's not respecting the plant
material.
So that's those are the thingsthat pop into my mind first.
Tina Maddock (25:24):
Yeah, I think so.
While you're talking, one ofthe things I was thinking about
is when you talk about diffusingthings into the air and they're
actually making them into yourlungs and bloodstream.
Um, I feel like thisconversation is probably easier
to have with consumers thanmaybe five years ago or 10 years
ago because we are constantlytalking about microplastics and
(25:48):
how we're inhaling them now.
So I feel like that opens justthe fact that people are getting
more educated about theinhalation of certain materials
and how that's changing ourhealth.
I feel like there's anopportunity to sort of piggyback
on the fact that that's apopular topic and you can now
have a conversation that's veryeducational around essential
(26:10):
oils.
Um, so I do feel like followingtrends in the health community
and then finding a way, like howthen is another topic relevant
to this conversation that'shappening is a great way to have
an entry point to have aconversation with a consumer
online, especially because thistopic is trending, but also in
(26:35):
the store, and then you can makesome draw some parallels from
some of these conversations.
Liza Docken (26:40):
Yeah.
I mean, I I think too about theuh home scent industry and what
toxins are being released bysome of those, you know, the
pieces that you can plug in ordo something else with that then
release these scents.
I mean, there are studies outthere already that show the
(27:01):
toxicity of those ingredients,and then you're sharing them in
the air, and then you have whatdo you have pets?
Do you have children?
I mean, what are we what are weexposing ourselves to without
knowing or without doing theresearch?
And then I think that's youknow, that starts the spectrum
of quality um when it comes toaromatics.
Tina Maddock (27:25):
Yeah.
And I do also think that um,well, first talking to the
consumer a little bit more aboutum what they don't understand
about regulation or notregulation in this industry.
That can cover the entirestore.
Um, and you know, what's on thelabel?
(27:46):
Is that what's in the bottle?
Has it been tested?
Are there heavy metals?
Is this organic?
Is it synthetic versus organicmaterials?
This can apply across, it's notjust for essential oils.
These are conversations thatfeel important to continue
having over and over againbecause it is a differentiator.
If you, and and I do think mostof the natural product stores
(28:09):
are this, the watchtower of whatwe are offering for people to
put into their bodies, on theirbodies, um, and around their
bodies.
And you become the source to belike, okay, well, is this okay?
Is this not okay?
Tell me more.
What do I not know about aningredient, a product, and
anything?
And so I think thisconversation around essential
(28:32):
oils is store-wide.
You could do this all over theplace and talk about those
different things.
And sourcing keeps coming up.
Like, how do you source theproduct that's in the bottle?
And how do you know that what'son the labels in the bottle?
So tell me more about that.
What are the conversations thatyou feel like retailers should
(28:52):
and can be having around thosetopics?
Liza Docken (28:57):
Yeah, I think that I mean, again, how does a
company back up what they'reselling?
How does, you know, how do youfind confidence in a product to
then offer to your customer?
Um and so the you know,certifications I mean, I I I'm
(29:18):
I'm conflicted here too, becauseI love the idea of someone
telling me something and shakingmy hand and making eye contact
and me believing that that iswhat is true.
And um and yet um having thesecertifications is great because
the system the system isn'tgonna support that, right?
They're gonna they're gonnafind ways to navigate that.
(29:39):
So I think I think the key isto have that conversation
without it becoming smug,without it becoming elitist.
Um I think really at the heart,you know, there is that element
where you have that sort ofdivide between.
Between a natural products, youknow, store, co-op, whatever it
(30:04):
might be, and then you know, aconventional store.
And I don't want them to beseparate.
I think there's space for allof it.
And so to not make it seemlike, well, you don't know what
you're doing, you should bedoing this.
It's sharing the informationwith them in a way that do you
know what it means to have acertified essential oil?
(30:24):
Do you know what it means tohave a certified herbal tincture
or whatever it might be?
How does that enhance yourexperience of taking the
product?
Because I think I what I loveso much is I've always loved
this about the natural productindustry, where as a retailer, I
was offering a naturalalternative to something that
(30:47):
would have side effects, mighthave ingredients that weren't
supporting your health, eventhough the product's meant to
support the health.
So um so you want that naturalalternative, and then you want
how do I back that up?
How do I support you, you beingcustomer, me being retail?
How do I do that?
Well, I choose brands that giveme that information.
(31:11):
And then then again, I alsounderstand that there are a lot
of people trying to do a reallygood thing in terms of what
they're offering as, you know,products and can't afford
certification, can't afford allthe testing.
So how do we how do we fit themin?
And then, in my opinion, itneeds to be more local.
It needs to be someone that youdo have interactions with.
You can go to their farm or totheir facilities or to whatever
(31:32):
it might be.
And that's your owncertification, right?
So as an employee, you say,I've been there, I've seen it, I
trust it.
Um, but at the end of the day,you know, we're we're still
we're still individuals.
We still have differentbiochemistries.
We all are going to responddifferently to different
products.
Doesn't matter.
Much of this doesn't matter ifthe product doesn't sit with you
(31:55):
and say, yeah, this feels likeit's nourishing me or supporting
me.
So the certifications aregreat, but I think I think as a
former retailer, there was nobetter sort of certification
than if I'd tried it and said,hey, here's how this worked for
me.
I would I would recommend thisto you.
(32:16):
Um but again, I really do thinkthat it's about not, I would
like less separation.
I would like less, less, we'rebetter than you, we're better
than them.
That's not my energy at all.
Um I want I want a world inwhich we're all doing the best
(32:37):
that we can and we're allunderstanding why that's
important.
Tina Maddock (32:42):
Yeah.
So a few things come up for mewhile you're having this
conversation.
One is sort of a fear-basedtactic, like um talking about
this from a place of fear, likeyou need to be afraid if the
following doesn't happen, versusframing it up as something
like, here are all the reasonsthat we love this.
We love that we know this issourced this way, or it's
(33:05):
third-party tested, or wevisited this farm.
And that's also the other thingI was thinking about as you're
talking about this, theaffordability of some of these
certifications, like USDAorganic.
Um, these small local farms cando everything according to the
right standards and more, butbut affording the um
(33:30):
certification of that and thethe entire process and red tape
is just not something that's umavailable to them in order to
have competitive pricing andthat sort of thing.
So I see a lot of like locallygrown um or that would normally
be organic if if you knew whatall was going on in the farm,
(33:53):
but they're just not ready toshell out the money that it
takes to get the certification.
And you're right.
I think it's hey, this localfarm provided this, and we know
they use this kind of feed, andwe feel really comfortable with
the practices around animals andthings that they do.
So um, I think there's room forall, like you're saying, and
(34:15):
that the education is reallyaround um here, just look for
these things.
It doesn't have to be beafraid, it, but it is hey, look,
look for these things becausethis starts to tell me that
these people are aligned withwhat you're looking for.
Liza Docken (34:34):
Yes.
And there's that piece aroundwhat outcome are you looking for
here?
That sort of nudges them tomaybe do a little more research
or search inside themselves,which I think is so important
when we're doing anything aroundour health and wellness.
But what is it about this thatyou need?
(34:54):
Um, and if we understand whatyour desired outcome is, then
it's even easier to recommendwhat thing might support that
outcome.
Tina Maddock (35:05):
Um, that's why one of my favorite questions to um
when I when I talk to some ofthese retailers, I'm asking
their floor teams, like, how areyou greeting people when they
come in the door?
And most of them are veryfriendly and they're like, hey,
we're so happy you're heretoday, or hey, welcome to the
store.
And it kind of stops there manytimes.
(35:28):
And this is about sales, butit's also about getting people
to the right um products and andservices that they need.
But just asking that question,what brought you into the store
today?
What are you looking to solve?
What outcome are you lookingfor?
That's another way to say sortof the same thing that can then
guide how you guide someoneelse, which will ultimately, the
(35:51):
moment that you start helpingpeople reach their goals or
solve their problem, ultimatelythat's gonna lead to more sales.
And so it's just a really greatpractice to start that
relationship in that way.
Like, why, why are you here andwhat are you trying to
accomplish being here?
And let me help you find theright thing that you're looking
for.
Liza Docken (36:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I at when I was in retail, Ihad um I had a training with
Catherine from Wishgarden Herbs,and I remember her telling me
that the produce section is likeyour best source, right?
For medicine.
And I'm thinking about it interms of like, that's your
(36:33):
foundation.
And then how do you build onthat, right?
And the wellness departmentcomes after that.
So you start with thatfoundation.
Um, because at the end of theday, oftentimes what you're
getting in the wellnessdepartment is some element of
what's available in the producesection in a different form.
And so I don't know.
I mean, I think about it, youknow, I'm getting a little
(36:55):
whimsical now, but it's verymuch that like what's the
biggest picture?
And so again, when you asksomeone what's your desired
outcome, you're able to thensay, well, let's look at this
spectrum.
So someone would, I remember acustomer came in and, you know,
he was having digestive issues.
So I recommended a product fromthe wellness department, a
(37:18):
product from produce, and aproduct from the cooler.
And he came back the next dayand gave me this huge hug
because he felt better, youknow.
And so there are ways toincorporate all things.
And I think that that'simportant to remember too in
retail, because we can get stuckin like I only recommend herbs,
I only recommend vitamins, Ionly recommend essential oils, I
(37:39):
only recommend, you know what.
But to get that broader imagegoing too, I think is just helps
get at all of those pieces.
Tina Maddock (37:49):
Yeah.
So talk to me a little bitabout now that we're into this
retail sales, helping customersconversation.
Um, you mentioned earlier inthe podcast, and I did want to
loop back around to it, that umthere's a way of thinking
outside the box for essentialoils.
Like, what are the main reasonsthat someone gets and uses an
essential oil?
(38:10):
And then let's move next intookay, what's outside more
outside of the box, or what arethere things that people and
consumers and the people on thefloor are just not thinking
about they could use essentialoils to do?
Liza Docken (38:25):
I would say it's obviously aromatherapy starts
with aromatics.
Um, people are looking forsomething to put in their
diffuser, or maybe they like toput a drop of essential oil on
the shower floor, and thatsteams up for them while they're
showering personal careproducts.
It's really around, it startsaround that aromatic piece.
(38:48):
And, you know, when we talkabout aromatherapy as a
practice, we're most familiar inthis country with the English
model of aromatherapy, which ischoosing oils for the aromatics
and then using themaromatically, and that's
beautiful.
Um, but then we obviously stillare not still, but have begun
(39:10):
and are continuing with thistheme of internal use.
And I think that, you know,that starts getting into the
therapeutics because thearomatics of the oil are not
what we're concerned about.
If we're taking theminternally, we're using them to
support our health and wellnessin a more profound way.
Then you need to know whatconstituents are present because
those constituents are theactive ingredients that support
(39:33):
us.
So you have this aromaticpiece, which is a beautiful
practice, and we we employ thatat Pronorum as well.
But but then you do have thatconversation of moving toward
the internal use piece.
And one needs to be incrediblycareful going there.
There have to be certainguidelines and safety measures
in place in terms of what's thedelivery system and how do we
(39:57):
how do we inform our customersin a way that they stay safe.
But then between those two,it's these blends that can be
put together for therapeuticusage.
And so what I think retailersoften don't consider is that,
you know, if they carrypronorome as an example and they
(40:18):
have a customer come in to say,I'm having an allergic reaction
to the pollen or to, you know,whatever it might be, or I have
a cold and I'm having a hardtime breathing, the likelihood
of that staff bringing them toour sinus formula as an example
(40:38):
is not as likely as them beingbrought to the herbal tinctures
or the vitamins, you know, somesupplement in there.
And oftentimes there'scrossover in ingredients if you
look at, say, the sinus formulaversus something you might find
in a tincture or a supplement.
And so I think that's a placewhere aromatherapy can grow if
(41:02):
people are formulating with thatin mind.
So unfortunately, there's not aton of formulation outside of
pranerome happening in that way.
I think it'll increase as timegoes on.
I think we're really startingto see this turn in how
aromatherapy is presented andreceived in the retail sector.
And so when we think aboutusage like that, that's outside
(41:24):
the box.
That's like, you know, whenthey you when they are brought
to the aromatherapy set, they'relike, oh, uh, well, I don't
need something that smells good.
And it's like, well, this isn'tformulated to smell a certain
way, it's formulated to supportyou in a certain way.
That helps them open uh theireyes to what aromatherapy can
do.
Because if you think about, Imean, my most favorite little
(41:49):
tidbit in this realm is that thebulk of essential oils that are
created in the world areutilized in the food product
industry, not in the wellnessside.
So it's flavorings for sodasand canned foods and things like
that.
Um, they're utilized forpersonal care products and go
beyond that, but they really areeither flavoring or aromatics
(42:13):
and not even being used in theway we think of aromatherapy.
So people are using essentialoils probably daily if they
don't, you know, they may notknow it.
So I think that that helps themsee, like, oh wait, I've
already, I've already got thisin my life, but it's it's then
(42:33):
in that delivery system, it'sabout the dilution, right?
Those are the probably two mostimportant things for people to
know as they start to thinkoutside the box in terms of
aromatherapy.
What do I know about thisproduct?
You know, what what kind ofdocumentation supports this
product?
And then wow, I had no ideathat I could use something, you
(42:56):
know, to support my symptoms ofshingles or athlete's foot or
whatever it might be, we cansupport those symptoms with
essential oils.
It doesn't have to be, youknow, something else.
Um but that I mean, there's alot of room for that still for
growth in in that in thatdepartment.
(43:16):
So that just to loop back tothat piece around, you know, the
more affordable brands.
Um often they're moreaffordable, A, obviously,
because they're not organic, butthey're not being tested.
And so then we can't use themthe same way until we get some
kind of certification aroundwhat constituents are present
there.
But, you know, it's amultifaceted thing.
(43:38):
I mean, it's really interestingbecause I remember when I first
started in the 90s in thehealth food store, you know, we
had like one brand.
Um, it looked familiar.
I'm sure my mom had had thatbefore, and it was, you know, an
aromatic moment.
Absolutely.
I mean, it was rose geranium.
I remember the carpet, thefloor, yeah, the floor, the you
(43:59):
know, the shelves on the wall.
Like I know exactly where I waswhen that happened, and I
smelled it.
It was like everything opened.
So it opens, and then where dowe go?
And and hopefully I do my jobwell enough that the staff knows
how to support.
Tina Maddock (44:16):
Yeah, those are all great.
And you know, thinking aboutdifferent um recipes, use cases
for some of these essential oilsum can also be fun for the
staff, the team to dig into anddo a little research for
(44:36):
themselves as well, because theyall have use cases they could
have they could be using for umessential oils, among other
things.
And so it's always easiest ifthey start from, hey, I'm
solving my own problem or justmaking my life a little bit
better in these areas.
And so, okay, well, maybe howcould I do that with things that
(45:00):
are right here in the store?
And that leads to the abilityto educate other people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, here's an interestingconversation.
Um, market from a marketingperspective, there is something
about scents.
So you were just talking aboutyou remember the moment that you
(45:21):
had that smell, the rosegeranium, and it probably brings
out very strong memories foryou because that happens with
smells.
Um, there's also a lot ofresearch around what makes
people feel at home, or whatscents make people feel a sense
of community or connected orfocused or um calming and that
(45:43):
sort of thing.
And so, what's the vibe thatyou want to give in your store?
What are your thoughts aroundhaving that aromatherapy running
in the store?
Liza Docken (45:53):
Well, I think it's a great idea in terms of that
scent, then becomes theirtouchstone to your store.
Because when you breathe in,you're if you're breathing in
through your nose, it's cominginto the limbic system of your
brain, in which is housed manyelements, including the part of
(46:16):
your brain that's focusing onmemory.
And that's why when I smellcardamom, I'm suddenly in my
grandma's kitchen baking withher.
Um, we've all had thatexperience.
And so you as a retailer, youas a store, they get to set, you
know, you get to set the stage.
You get to decide, like, okay,every time someone walks in,
(46:37):
they're gonna have this smell.
That's associated with supportfrom staff, feeling better after
they've started taking whateverit is they might have bought.
Um, you know, I think that weget into that conversation
around scent sensitivity andthen people not wanting things
diffuse.
So I always recommend startingreally subtle.
(46:59):
You know, there's some reallygreat ways that are very subtle,
but oftentimes sensesensitivities develop because of
synthetic.
And so if you're diffusingsomething that is not guaranteed
to be synthetic, that is, youknow, a pure, truly, usually
that's through organic orconstituent-based testing, um,
(47:20):
then you're not gonna have theissues with that type of thing.
But I know some stores theyjust have a policy where they
can't diffuse.
That doesn't mean you can'tstill have some aromatic
element.
Um but yeah, I think I thinkthat's a really great way
because also, you know, there'splenty of studies showing it's
(47:42):
like when realtors bake cookiesin a home before they have an
open house, right?
Yeah.
How do you set the stage forpeople to feel comfortable and
not as a way to manipulatesales, but just like if you feel
comfortable, you're more likelyto interact with the staff.
That's my situation, anyway.
If I'm comfortable and feelinggood in myself, I'm gonna talk
(48:02):
to people more likely, have thatconversation, and then walk
away with more support.
Whether I just got an educationand maybe never bought
anything.
Um, I'm a huge proponent ofeducation first, and then let's
see how it goes from there.
But um, aromatics play a hugerole in supporting someone.
I can tell you, I people wouldwalk into the wellness
(48:24):
department where I last worked,flustered, end of the day,
didn't know what they came infor.
They're having a moment, andI'd say, let's just let's just
go over here.
And we would pick up anessential oil and we'd rub a
drop in our palms and cup it andbring it to our nose.
You know, we'd breathe in andthat would be it.
And then they'd be like, Oh,you know what?
I actually came in for lettuce,you know, and then they'd leave
(48:46):
the fine, no problem.
But like now they remember thatthey went to that store and
they were supported, and thenboom, you're you're you're a
reliable resource.
Um and I think that's all anyof us are looking for.
Where can I go that feelsreliable?
Where can I go where I feellike I trust people and what
they're saying and what they'reoffering?
(49:07):
I mean, it is we're in a placeright now that feels a little
disconnected, wacky.
So, like, how do we feel alittle more aligned, centered,
connected?
Like you said, that's a greatword.
I I think aromatics can supportthat absolutely.
Tina Maddock (49:25):
Yeah, so I love that as a tool to help build
relationship.
So everything we talk about, Imean, marketing is all about
building a relationship.
And then the sales come becauseyou have um a friend, you have
a trusted ally, you have aconsultant that you believe in,
and again, you know is reliable.
(49:46):
So I believe that doing usingsome of these, whether it's an
aromatic, whether you'rediffusing, or like you said, if
someone comes in and they areworked up, head over to the
essential oils and have a chatand um help them decompress so
that they can communicate withyou.
(50:06):
It's just a tool for betterconnection, a better way for
them to get back to themselves,like you were talking about.
It does not have to be seen asI'm trying to make you buy more
things or manipulate you likeyou were talking about.
I think it's if we look at allof these as tools for connection
and relationship, then I thinkthe store ends up doing better
(50:28):
anyway.
Yep, absolutely.
Yeah.
Okay.
Any trends you want to talkabout with co-op or other
marketing activities aroundessential oils?
I mean, we really did dig in alittle bit today to talk about,
even on the floor, like what youcan do.
So I'm very happy.
These are tactics people canuse today.
But is there anything else thatcomes to mind when you're
(50:48):
talking about marketingactivities around essential
oils?
Liza Docken (50:52):
I think that what really speaks to people is
meeting them where they're at interms of what season is it?
What is happening in the world,the real world, even if we
won't don't want to see it,which a lot of us don't, um, but
need to in some way or oranother.
(51:14):
I think that speaking to, likeI just did a webinar about
seasonal transition.
What does that look like?
What does that mean?
How does that affect usphysically, emotionally,
whatever it might be?
And we know the basics, right?
We go into winter wellness andthen we need, you know, to
support our immune systems, butthere is that transition from
(51:35):
one to the other.
And obviously, then too, weconsider that not all climates
are the same.
So those in the southern statesaren't going to have quite the
shift.
And yet, light is changing.
The weather patterns arechanging, and that will disrupt
the equilibrium of the entiresystem, whether it's again
physically or emotionally.
(51:55):
So I love what we've been doinga lot lately is focusing on
those transitions, focusing onwhere we are in the moment.
And then obviously it's likemaybe there's, you know,
whatever it might be, school isstarting, or we're talking about
spring breaks or whatever.
But the more real you make itfor people, yeah.
(52:16):
You know, and then loop inthose pieces, maybe if it works,
you know, where because socialmedia is a thing, it's
absolutely a thing.
It has some good, has somenegatives, but you can loop in
ways to connect because thegenerational thing, what I find
really interesting is that youknow, Gen Z and Gen Alpha,
(52:40):
they're on the track to beingour next consumers given their
age.
They are deeply immersed in thescreen experience of life, and
also understand that there's ananother element out there in the
real world, which is prettycool to see because you know,
for a while there we werelooking like we were gonna just
(53:01):
try to live on our screens.
And so I'm hopeful about thatbecause then you can tie those
two pieces in.
Yeah, there's a social mediainfluence to certain things,
whether that's like vernacularor whatever it might be, but
then what's happening out there?
And how do we marry those twoto create something really nice
in terms of what you said,feeling connected?
(53:23):
I mean, I just love that.
How do we feel connected?
How do we connect generations?
How do we connect seasonaltransitions?
How do we do all of that?
Um, and it's just being real,in my opinion.
How real can we get?
Um, honesty is, I think, reallytreasured right now.
And so the more reliable youcome across, the more you're
(53:46):
gonna be listened to.
And that may seem like yeah,duh, but I think there's a lot
out there.
I mean, you can I can say a lotof things in a sort of
confident way, but it comesback, right?
You say something, they try it,they they feel supported in
that.
And so you work through that.
(54:07):
But but again, they're lookingfor a reliable source.
They need someone who's tellingthem something real.
Tina Maddock (54:15):
Yeah, and I think too, I love what you're talking
about, meeting them right wherethey are.
There are different life stagesfor different generations.
They're having an everydayexperience where they're looking
for help with things, orthere's a challenge or issue,
allergies, seasonal affecteddisorder.
(54:36):
I know we're not gonna talkabout medical things, but like,
um, but obviously there's aday-to-day that people are
encountering and they're justtrying to live their life and
care for the people they loveand, you know, be valuable in
the world for the most part.
And so, what are thoseexperiences?
And I do think the more thatyou have different generations
in your store, the more you'regonna be able to speak to the
(54:58):
different generations where theyare in that moment and how
they're feeling and the thingsthat they're encountering every
day.
Like, is it busy mom season?
Okay.
That's a whole separatesituation than, hey, I'm
experiencing paramenopause andmaybe some emptiness syndrome at
the same time.
So those just being able tospeak to people where they are,
(55:22):
and a lot of that comes fromhaving different people in your
store, or at least talking tothe customers and being real
about, hey, what's going on inyour life right now.
And then you're like, oh, I seethat a lot of my customers are
in this generation, in this lifestage, or in this season.
And then being able to haveconversations that are relevant
(55:43):
to them and not just you whereyou are, um, is very helpful.
unknown (55:49):
Yeah.
Tina Maddock (55:50):
And I think these retailers are just they have
tools and communities that canhelp people no matter their life
stage.
So it's great if they can startto say, no, I understand where
you are.
Um, and we're here with you.
Yeah.
All right.
So tell me, where can retailersfind you?
(56:11):
Maybe they aren't carrying youguys essential oil right now, or
maybe they want more education,or maybe they just got excited
about something you said andsay, I want this new product in
here.
How do they find you guys?
How do they get it?
Liza Docken (56:25):
Um so prana room.us is the easiest access point for
us.
Um, but we're at a lot of thetrade shows, so we're really out
there supporting.
Um we love the smaller shows.
Um, we go to the bigger ones,but the smaller shows really add
for that opportunity to havemore interaction.
So things like Soho um arereally helpful because you you
(56:51):
get to have that one-on-one.
But I would say those are thetwo primary ways to find us if
you're in retail and looking tofind more.
The website is hugelyinformative, um, just in terms
of every, you know, there's aneducation section, there's the
products.
Um that is really ourtransparency and education, I
(57:11):
would say, are two tenantsreally in terms of like we want
you to understand so that youcan support yourself better.
Um, I try to convey that whenI'm speaking at events, um, but
also just at the table withretailers as they're coming
around.
So those would be the twoprimary, yeah.
Tina Maddock (57:28):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much foryour time.
This is look, I think there aretools that people got in this
conversation they could take anduse in their store tomorrow.
And also, I think there's awhole world that you yourself
offer from an educationalperspective that could really
enrich the store community andum the education that they can
(57:48):
provide for their employees.
So thank you so much for beingon the show.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much for joiningus for the latest episode of the
Natural Products Marketerpodcast, where we're here to
help you grow your business soyou can serve more people and
change more lives.
If you have any questions thathave come up during this episode
(58:09):
or others, or there's just aretail challenge that you're
facing today, I would love foryou to reach out to us at info
at naturalproductsmarketer.com.
We're here to answer questions.
But most of all, if you have aquestion, then another retailer
probably also has that question.
So we can bring experts ontothe podcast to give you the
(58:30):
information that you reallyneed.
And if you liked what youheard, give us a thumbs up or
give us a review on uh YouTube,Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you're listening today.
All right, it was great to seeyou.
Because education is always the key.
I think things work better instores if if the staff is
educated.
Um, but then there's thetrickiness, right?
Because I think the other thingis that when stores are wanting
to have me come in and educate,it's because the turnover seems
to be pretty high on the retailside.
And that's tricky too, becausehow do we how do we enhance
(00:22):
retention?
Tina Maddock (00:23):
Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer
Podcast.
I'm your host, Tina Matdock.
On this podcast, you'll hearfrom manufacturers, retail
owners and operators, and otherbusiness experts that will help
you grow your business so youcan serve more people and change
more lives.
So, of course, thank you forbeing here.
And I would love for you tojust take a moment and introduce
(00:46):
yourself and talk about how yougot into natural products.
Liza Docken (00:50):
Yeah, thanks.
Um, I'm Liza Dawkins, and I'mthe national educator at
Pronaroom.
We are an organic aromatherapybrand.
And my journey to the naturalproducts world is sort of
through my hippie dad, who, youknow, I remember him bringing me
my first natural deodorantstick and being like, you should
(01:10):
maybe try this.
So this was in my teens, andthere was a health food store in
our neighborhood.
So this was back in the 90s,and um I had, you know, had done
all my things and I had beenworking other places.
And then I moved to Norway togo to art school.
And on my return, I needed ajob.
And it was me walking past thehealth food store that my dad
(01:34):
had always taken me to, and theyhad a help wanted sign.
And I was like, well, let'sjust see.
And they hired me on the spot,and then I've been in the
industry basically ever since, alittle bit off and on in my um
early 30s, but it's just sort oflike a kiss mit moment.
So um that's really where myjourney began.
(01:54):
And so I worked on the retailside actually for about 20 years
and then um came to Pronorumafter that.
So the bulk of my experience inthis industry is on the retail
side.
I managed and you know did allthose kinds of things.
I was a buyer, but um yeah, nowI'm really happy because
education is I love to learn andI love to share what I learn.
Tina Maddock (02:16):
So how long were you in Norway?
I'm so curious.
Liza Docken (02:19):
Oh, so that was a year.
Um, let's see.
Yeah, it was a year.
So they have these folk highschools, and that means that
between high school anduniversity, you get three years
to try these schools that are ayear-long program.
And that means that you can trysomething before you get into
university and make your bigdecision as to what you might
(02:42):
study.
They also have mandatory ummilitary service, but in and
amongst all of that, you can goto these folk high schools, and
they're, you know, mine was anart track, um, but at my school,
there were circus tracks andhorse training tracks.
So it was like this very coolamalgamation of three different
(03:02):
things that really, if you thinkabout it, could actually all be
intertwined.
But yeah, they have them allover the country.
And um, my grandparents werefirst generation um here
Norwegians, and so my dad hadgone to a folk high school, and
so then I went.
I don't think my daughter'sgonna go, but uh, it's a really
beautiful way to a take a gaphere, but to really feel out
(03:26):
like we should be doing thathere.
It's such a beautiful idea tohave that opportunity to feel
out, like you can doautomechanic.
I would love to go be an automechanic, so this is why I
always give this example, butyou can go and learn anything,
it seems, um, for a year and seehow you like it.
And so then they don't wastetheir education in the way I
(03:47):
feel some people do.
Tina Maddock (03:49):
Well, also, I mean, I never think that
education or learning is awaste, and we will get back on
track, everyone, in a moment.
But um, I am watching someyoung people, whether they're
between high school and collegeright now or college and
careers.
And there is this sense becausethings are so expensive to get
education here right now, thatif you pick a thing, then that's
(04:13):
the thing you have to do.
And I love that idea of just alittle bit of experimentation
and realizing that, I mean, evenyour natural products journey,
mine as well.
I didn't start out or go tocollege for this or or say this
was what I wanted to do with mylife.
You kind of find your way intoyour place.
(04:34):
And so it's nice if you canexperiment a little bit and it's
not like high stakes.
Right.
Right, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I we maybe we should do someof that with the natural
products industry and offeryoung people the opportunity to
come into retail or to get someeducation around that.
That would be very cool.
(04:55):
Uh, Sinpa, if you're listening,I'm on board.
Yeah, I'll support it.
Yeah, for sure.
All right.
Well, tell us a little bitabout you presented at Soho.
It's one of the reasons that Icontacted you to see if you
would be on the podcast becauseyou were there on the ground
where there were plenty ofmanufacturers and plenty of
(05:15):
retailers.
And so I'm just curious, like,what were you hearing while you
were there?
Things that people are afraidof, challenges, or things that
people are excited about.
Liza Docken (05:26):
I think um, in terms of retail in a broad
sense, I think there's obviouslysome struggle with online
versus in in-store.
And you know, I'm I'm prettyold school and I really love
being in a place and hands-on,interacting with a human being.
(05:50):
But I also totally understandthe desire for the convenience
of being able to shop online.
And so, how do we how do wesurvive on both sides?
You know, how can we make itwork for everyone?
And I think that's one of themain things that I heard a lot
of.
Um, but there was also a lot ofenthusiasm, you know, specific
(06:13):
to what I know in this industryin terms of aromatherapy.
There is a lot of interest inbroadening our horizons in terms
of how we use at leastessential oils, right?
There's usually, you know,people understand an oil to be
good for this or for that.
And really, when we can broadenthat and see where an essential
(06:36):
oil can be applied outside ofthose quintessential or usual
applications, um, I think that'sfun.
And so, of course, as aneducator, my passion is to
educate.
My passion is to like learn howwe can spread that, because
education is always the key.
I think things work better instores if if the staff is
(06:58):
educated.
Um, but then there's thetrickiness, right?
Because I think the other thingis that when stores are wanting
to have me come in and educate,it's because the turnover seems
to be pretty high on the retailside.
And that's tricky too, becausehow do we how do we enhance
retention?
Um, I think retention supportssales.
(07:20):
So being able to see that in abigger picture, um, you know, I
think it can start with at leastsomewhat the education piece.
Of course, workplace culture isgreat, but I can't influence
that.
But you know, um, so retailers,you know, and I'm thankful that
there's good and and sort ofdifficult moments.
(07:41):
Um, because if there weren'tany good, then what would we be
doing here?
Um so I heard a lot about thosetwo things in particular, just
in terms of how can we how canwe better support the store, but
then better support thecustomers via that support in
the store.
Tina Maddock (08:00):
Yeah, and you know, I do think that the more
education opportunities that yougive people, whether it's about
products, how to sell, how tointeract with people, or just
leadership training, does makeyour store a little bit more
sticky for your customers.
I mean, for your employees.
And when your employees aresticky and they start to behave
(08:22):
in line with your values, um,then it makes your customers
more sticky to your store.
So some of those things, it'shard because we do have
transient um employees rightnow.
It's a little bit differentthan it's been before.
Staffing's always been aproblem.
This is not a new thing.
(08:44):
It's always been um sort of awrestling match, but this looks
a little bit different than itused to.
People are in and out and theydon't mind leaving faster than
normal.
And also, there are a lot ofpeople that are like, wait a
minute, I have the opportunityto work from my house, or I get
more flexible hours when I dothings like this.
So I do think there's anopportunity for stores to be
(09:07):
really curious about how do weget flexible enough for these
employees to want to stickaround.
But also, what are the thingswe can offer that somewhere else
is not going to offer them?
Education, leadershipexperience, and opportunities,
opportunities to get out thereand do some of the things that
we always talk about.
So some of these marketingtactics, if you invite some of
(09:28):
your employees in to participatein those and even drive them,
especially if you're not doingthem right now, perfect
opportunity to give someone achance to do something that's
not necessarily on the floor orstocking shelves or whatever it
is.
You might invite them into amore creative opportunity.
So yeah, I agree that that thisis a real thing to look at.
(09:52):
Like, how do we becomeattractive to um to for people
to stay working with us?
But I think that translates tohow do we become attractive for
the customers?
And one of the things that youwere talking about is this sense
of you like to get out therewith the people and shop
sometimes just for theexperience of having another
human being to talk to.
(10:13):
And um, yeah, online offers aconvenience, but if you have
things that are exciting or anexciting reason to come to the
store, there's a demonstration,there's a workshop, there's some
community event that's beingheld at your store, people are
more likely to come more oftenand feel like they've got a
little bit of a communityhappening.
(10:34):
Yeah.
Um but tell us a little bitmore about, you know, essential
oils online competition.
We talked about this a littlebit when you and I were having a
discussion before.
And I find it reallyinteresting that essential oils,
especially, um, have a lot ofinfluencers and MLMs that are
out there.
And you guys are offering alittle bit of a different
(10:55):
experience, and there are thingsthat are important to you that
are values that you hold thatmight be a differentiator in
stores.
Liza Docken (11:02):
Yeah, I think, oh man, I have I have to find a
good balance here because I havestrong opinions about it.
But I my concern when it comesto you know the sort of
onslaught of options online, andthen when you also get into the
MLMs, there's a lot of focusthere on informing for sales
(11:30):
versus what I really focusedtoward, and that's educating for
safety.
And so the difference betweeneducation for safety and
informing for sales is obviousalready, but it will incline
people to overstate, um, enhancethe abilities.
(11:52):
You know, social media isreally interesting because it
definitely, when there aretrends online, we see our sales
spike in certain products basedon what's happening out there.
And there's a lot of dangerousinformation circling in those
moments because they'll justdecide that an oil is suddenly
the heel all, cure all magicpotion.
(12:14):
Yeah.
And they are profoundlysupportive for our health, but
you really need to know whatyou're doing, how you're using
them, um, you know, without eventouching on that internal
versus external application orusage, you still have to be
incredibly careful when it comesto using essential oils.
(12:35):
So online is great and verylittle that can be said.
You can't really interact withthe customer.
You can make infographics, buteven with those, you have to
stay really general, more sothan you even would in person
for Dé compliance, it seems,with a lot of online retailers.
(12:55):
So it's um it's this trickyplace.
And so I try to get on socialmedia, you know, at least once a
week just to educate on someelement, um, just to try to,
again, to balance out what's outthere, because there's a lot of
not necessarily misinformation,but yes, sometimes, and then
sometimes just not enoughinformation so that they don't
(13:18):
understand how to use it oncethey buy it.
And then they're just left totheir own devices.
And unfortunately, in thiscountry, if a little bit is
good, then we think a lot isbetter, and that is so the
opposite of true with essentialoils in particular.
So we have to be so careful.
Um, but I think that you know,we're finding ways.
(13:39):
I mean, we as in a uh market,like, you know, a lot of
retailers are starting to havetheir online stores.
Um, and so I'm seeing wherethey can maybe they post a video
and it's one of their staffmembers and it's sharing, hey, I
we have this new product, andhere's how you use it, and come
into the store and we'll helpsupport you if you want more
(14:00):
information.
I think that's a really greattactic because it it initially
gives information but invitesthem in.
Um, and I think when a customerknows that they can go in and
get more um information, thenthey're more likely to do that
than if they were gonna try anddo their online shopping with
the same store.
Tina Maddock (14:19):
So Yeah.
You know, one of the thingsthat brings up for me is you you
can remix a lot of social mediaum things these days and giving
attribution to the originalproducer or whatever.
But um I I think you canattract a lot of people by going
further on explanations, likehere's what you've been hearing,
(14:39):
and you can even show like whathas been said by someone else.
And here's what I'd like foryou to know don't forget that
you need this, that, and theother, or this is the best way
to use this in that case, and orum have a you know, not um not
overdoing it in certain areas.
(15:00):
The the I was talking to astore um owner the other day,
and he was like, I'm theanti-TikTok guy because I'm
constantly going on and saying,you might have heard this on
TikTok.
Let me help.
unknown (15:16):
Yeah.
Tina Maddock (15:16):
Here's maybe why we don't even carry that
product, which is great.
I mean, I think you can get alot of respect from your
consumers that way, but also youcan go further in explaining
how to use things or making surethat things are safe.
And I think that will garner alot of um social media
(15:39):
following.
But again, it just gives yougives trust to your store,
especially if it's not aroundI'm trying to get you to buy
more of this.
I'm actually telling you, maybeit's not always the right
product for you, but come by andwe can talk to you about what
might be.
Liza Docken (15:54):
Well, absolutely.
I mean, the first example thattypically pops into my head is
you know, this sort of auraaround frankincense.
And yes, is it wonderful?
It's a lovely oil and it's dearto my heart.
And the way many people use it,you know, I can think of three
(16:15):
examples that would be bettersubstitutions depending on the
application.
Um and that gets tricky becausepeople don't want to hear that.
They they're, you know, they'rethey get tenacious.
They're like, no, no, no, it'sfrankincense or nothing in this
one example.
And it's like, I understand.
And let's think about theplant, let's think about your
(16:35):
body, let's think about the youknow, the need.
Um, yeah, it I could go on andon about that, but I'll I'll
stop there.
But it's it is a veryinteresting influence.
Um, that obviously back in theday when I was in retail, we did
not have that at all.
It was really driven by thecommunity.
(16:56):
So um, I mean, I remember whenum I live in Minneapolis and the
Somali community has beengrowing quite a bit since the
90s um from refugees and thingslike that.
And with the higher populationof Somali people, we had more
drive for black seed oil.
Oh, and like that goosebumps alittle bit because we weren't
(17:16):
really talking about it.
We weren't thinking about it,and now it's everywhere and
everyone knows about it.
But that was really driven, youknow, by that.
And those kinds of influencesin retail, I think, are really
cool and interesting.
Um, it's not to say that socialmedia is all bad, but it tends
to be, you know, so sensationaland so over the top that it
(17:39):
doesn't always serve us, youknow, as in terms of our health
and wellness.
unknown (17:44):
Yeah.
Tina Maddock (17:44):
So if I'm just thinking from a marketing
perspective, like what mightthat mean to me?
Let's take fragrancefrankincense, for example, and
you could go on to social mediaand be like, five reasons
frankincense might not be theright oil for you.
Right.
Yeah.
Which is great because then youbecome the consultant, yeah.
Versus just the place I buy athing, because we all know that
(18:08):
if you're that, you're very notsticky.
It's going to be price-driventhat people are coming to you
versus being the consultant,which again goes back to
education.
Like you have to know yourcraft in order to be a good
consultant on the floor.
But those are greatopportunities to just have a
quick little reel.
(18:28):
And people start to trust youmore the more that you talk
about things like that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
So talk to me a little bitabout some.
Uh, here's what I see and hearwith essential oils sometimes.
Um, they're they can beprice-driven because people
don't understand the differencesbetween the different producers
(18:49):
of essential oils or thesourcing background.
Um, so walk me through a littlebit of that when a customer
group, like your entire customergroup, is is walking toward
that lower priced item in thestore.
What should we be doing toeducate people?
Or how do we become competitiveagainst it's always the lower
(19:11):
priced item?
Liza Docken (19:13):
Yeah, this is a great question because I think
about this a lot in terms of,you know, having been in retail,
understanding that, you know,it's good to offer a range of
pricing.
And um what I think needs to bemore widespread is the
knowledge that essential oils, Icall them the wild west of the
(19:36):
wellness world still.
Because it's one of thosethings where you can find oils
that say pure or say natural ormight even claim a therapeutic
grade.
There's no certification orcertifying body that can back
that up.
And so you could have asynthetic oil, not naturally
derived, or partially naturallyderived and partially synthetic,
(19:59):
but any amount of syntheticimmediately is gonna throw off
the endocrine system.
So not a good idea, but theycan still say pure because no
one's gonna check to see.
And so um, I think that when wedon't have supporting documents
for an oil, we should be verywary of using it.
(20:21):
So, what I mean by that is asthe example, pranorum, we offer
a certificate of analysis onevery single batch of every
single essential oil.
So if people are curious aboutit, the certification goes
through, lists every singleconstituent present there, um,
shows its organic certification,shows its Latin binomial, you
know, and this testing isn'tit's like it's not we're doing
(20:42):
that.
Um, they get tested before weget them to ensure that we're
actually getting what we wantbecause the way we recommend
using essential oils, weabsolutely have to have that
information.
And so that's the other piece,too, is you know, when it comes
to educating on how to use oils,um, I have to be very clear
when I talk about oils that whatI'm sharing is based
specifically on the oilsPranaroom offers because I don't
(21:05):
know what other brands aredoing.
I don't work there, I don't seetheir sourcing, I don't see if
they're manipulating by mixinglavenders or synthesizing um,
you know, the amount of lavenderessential oil that is sold in
the market far exceeds what thisplanet can grow.
And so we have to be clearthat, like, okay, how do we
ensure that what we're buying isin fact from you know, plant
(21:28):
material, first of all, andideally organic plant material.
Um, and so I get a little bitwarm when I talk about this
because it's really importantbecause it I get it, you know,
and one of the things I hear alot in terms of buying the less
expensive or even saying I don'tneed an organic essential oil
(21:51):
is when people say it's becauseI'm diffusing.
So I'm not using it internallyor topically.
And so I as gently andthoughtfully as I can inform
them that you're still consumingit to some degree.
You're breathing it in, it'sbeing absorbed by your lungs.
The lung tissue is taking inscent molecules are in the air,
(22:11):
right?
All scent is particulate, whichis fascinating and kind of
creepy all at the same time.
But that's why certainessential oils aren't great in
diffusers or at certain levels.
But if you were to do a bloodtest with someone who's been
diffusing for a half an hour,you would find transit levels of
that essential oil in theirblood.
So it's not nothing to diffuse,and a lot of people diffuse all
(22:35):
day every day, which would bekind of wild.
So that's an important piece toremember too, and that the
amount of essential oil we needisn't that much, and so buying
these massive bottles isn'tnecessary, we don't need to
always be buying these hugevalue-sized bottles.
(22:58):
Oftentimes, we only need asmall amount, you know, and then
I start thinking about likewhat is the shelf life of an
essential oil once it's opened.
It varies greatly depending onwhat type of oil you're using.
So chances are your oil isoxidized.
I know so many people who havebottles and bottles of essential
oils in their closet orcupboard, they've had them for
(23:20):
years, they're likely oxidized,so then you're not using them
for anything but cleaningbecause once oxidized, you're
not diffusing, you're not usingtopically, you're sure, you're
not taking them internally.
So there's there's so many waysin which um you know we can
share information.
(23:41):
Another example in terms of youknow, why do we want to invest
in an essential oil?
If you think about lavender isthe panacea, so it's the most
popular essential oil, it takes2,000 pounds of lavender
flowering tubs, that's theweight of an adult bison, to
(24:02):
make one gallon of essentialoil.
Tina Maddock (24:04):
Oh my goodness.
Liza Docken (24:05):
And that's staggering when you think about
the land mass required to growthe plant material for a small
amount of liquid.
And I think then we start tosee why you would want to invest
to make sure that you aregetting the type of lavender
you're looking for.
You then want to invest in anorganic oil because you're
(24:25):
getting concentrated chemicals,otherwise, that have been
sprayed on the plant material.
And so you're there's it'slayered, it's so layered.
Um and so the ways to supportstores would be pick the element
that makes the most sense toyou, and then start there.
(24:46):
And if you know you build onthat, um, because if I say
here's all the reasons why, it'soverwhelming, but take the
example that makes the mostsense to you and then help your
customers understand thatbecause if the responsibility
starts with the pronoun, forexample, for ethical forcing,
then it's in our recommendedusage, but the responsibility is
(25:08):
also on the consumer not to usea whole bottle in a day because
that would be wild, right?
It's unsafe, it's not worth,it's not respecting the plant
material.
So that's those are the thingsthat pop into my mind first.
Tina Maddock (25:24):
Yeah, I think so.
While you're talking, one ofthe things I was thinking about
is when you talk about diffusingthings into the air and they're
actually making them into yourlungs and bloodstream.
Um, I feel like thisconversation is probably easier
to have with consumers thanmaybe five years ago or 10 years
ago because we are constantlytalking about microplastics and
(25:48):
how we're inhaling them now.
So I feel like that opens justthe fact that people are getting
more educated about theinhalation of certain materials
and how that's changing ourhealth.
I feel like there's anopportunity to sort of piggyback
on the fact that that's apopular topic and you can now
have a conversation that's veryeducational around essential
(26:10):
oils.
Um, so I do feel like followingtrends in the health community
and then finding a way, like howthen is another topic relevant
to this conversation that'shappening is a great way to have
an entry point to have aconversation with a consumer
online, especially because thistopic is trending, but also in
(26:35):
the store, and then you can makesome draw some parallels from
some of these conversations.
Liza Docken (26:40):
Yeah.
I mean, I I think too about theuh home scent industry and what
toxins are being released bysome of those, you know, the
pieces that you can plug in ordo something else with that then
release these scents.
I mean, there are studies outthere already that show the
(27:01):
toxicity of those ingredients,and then you're sharing them in
the air, and then you have whatdo you have pets?
Do you have children?
I mean, what are we what are weexposing ourselves to without
knowing or without doing theresearch?
And then I think that's youknow, that starts the spectrum
of quality um when it comes toaromatics.
Tina Maddock (27:25):
Yeah.
And I do also think that um,well, first talking to the
consumer a little bit more aboutum what they don't understand
about regulation or notregulation in this industry.
That can cover the entirestore.
Um, and you know, what's on thelabel?
(27:46):
Is that what's in the bottle?
Has it been tested?
Are there heavy metals?
Is this organic?
Is it synthetic versus organicmaterials?
This can apply across, it's notjust for essential oils.
These are conversations thatfeel important to continue
having over and over againbecause it is a differentiator.
If you, and and I do think mostof the natural product stores
(28:09):
are this, the watchtower of whatwe are offering for people to
put into their bodies, on theirbodies, um, and around their
bodies.
And you become the source to belike, okay, well, is this okay?
Is this not okay?
Tell me more.
What do I not know about aningredient, a product, and
anything?
And so I think thisconversation around essential
(28:32):
oils is store-wide.
You could do this all over theplace and talk about those
different things.
And sourcing keeps coming up.
Like, how do you source theproduct that's in the bottle?
And how do you know that what'son the labels in the bottle?
So tell me more about that.
What are the conversations thatyou feel like retailers should
(28:52):
and can be having around thosetopics?
Liza Docken (28:57):
Yeah, I think that I mean, again, how does a
company back up what they'reselling?
How does, you know, how do youfind confidence in a product to
then offer to your customer?
Um and so the you know,certifications I mean, I I I'm
(29:18):
I'm conflicted here too, becauseI love the idea of someone
telling me something and shakingmy hand and making eye contact
and me believing that that iswhat is true.
And um and yet um having thesecertifications is great because
the system the system isn'tgonna support that, right?
They're gonna they're gonnafind ways to navigate that.
(29:39):
So I think I think the key isto have that conversation
without it becoming smug,without it becoming elitist.
Um I think really at the heart,you know, there is that element
where you have that sort ofdivide between.
Between a natural products, youknow, store, co-op, whatever it
(30:04):
might be, and then you know, aconventional store.
And I don't want them to beseparate.
I think there's space for allof it.
And so to not make it seemlike, well, you don't know what
you're doing, you should bedoing this.
It's sharing the informationwith them in a way that do you
know what it means to have acertified essential oil?
(30:24):
Do you know what it means tohave a certified herbal tincture
or whatever it might be?
How does that enhance yourexperience of taking the
product?
Because I think I what I loveso much is I've always loved
this about the natural productindustry, where as a retailer, I
was offering a naturalalternative to something that
(30:47):
would have side effects, mighthave ingredients that weren't
supporting your health, eventhough the product's meant to
support the health.
So um so you want that naturalalternative, and then you want
how do I back that up?
How do I support you, you beingcustomer, me being retail?
How do I do that?
Well, I choose brands that giveme that information.
(31:11):
And then then again, I alsounderstand that there are a lot
of people trying to do a reallygood thing in terms of what
they're offering as, you know,products and can't afford
certification, can't afford allthe testing.
So how do we how do we fit themin?
And then, in my opinion, itneeds to be more local.
It needs to be someone that youdo have interactions with.
You can go to their farm or totheir facilities or to whatever
(31:32):
it might be.
And that's your owncertification, right?
So as an employee, you say,I've been there, I've seen it, I
trust it.
Um, but at the end of the day,you know, we're we're still
we're still individuals.
We still have differentbiochemistries.
We all are going to responddifferently to different
products.
Doesn't matter.
Much of this doesn't matter ifthe product doesn't sit with you
(31:55):
and say, yeah, this feels likeit's nourishing me or supporting
me.
So the certifications aregreat, but I think I think as a
former retailer, there was nobetter sort of certification
than if I'd tried it and said,hey, here's how this worked for
me.
I would I would recommend thisto you.
(32:16):
Um but again, I really do thinkthat it's about not, I would
like less separation.
I would like less, less, we'rebetter than you, we're better
than them.
That's not my energy at all.
Um I want I want a world inwhich we're all doing the best
(32:37):
that we can and we're allunderstanding why that's
important.
Tina Maddock (32:42):
Yeah.
So a few things come up for mewhile you're having this
conversation.
One is sort of a fear-basedtactic, like um talking about
this from a place of fear, likeyou need to be afraid if the
following doesn't happen, versusframing it up as something
like, here are all the reasonsthat we love this.
We love that we know this issourced this way, or it's
(33:05):
third-party tested, or wevisited this farm.
And that's also the other thingI was thinking about as you're
talking about this, theaffordability of some of these
certifications, like USDAorganic.
Um, these small local farms cando everything according to the
right standards and more, butbut affording the um
(33:30):
certification of that and thethe entire process and red tape
is just not something that's umavailable to them in order to
have competitive pricing andthat sort of thing.
So I see a lot of like locallygrown um or that would normally
be organic if if you knew whatall was going on in the farm,
(33:53):
but they're just not ready toshell out the money that it
takes to get the certification.
And you're right.
I think it's hey, this localfarm provided this, and we know
they use this kind of feed, andwe feel really comfortable with
the practices around animals andthings that they do.
So um, I think there's room forall, like you're saying, and
(34:15):
that the education is reallyaround um here, just look for
these things.
It doesn't have to be beafraid, it, but it is hey, look,
look for these things becausethis starts to tell me that
these people are aligned withwhat you're looking for.
Liza Docken (34:34):
Yes.
And there's that piece aroundwhat outcome are you looking for
here?
That sort of nudges them tomaybe do a little more research
or search inside themselves,which I think is so important
when we're doing anything aroundour health and wellness.
But what is it about this thatyou need?
(34:54):
Um, and if we understand whatyour desired outcome is, then
it's even easier to recommendwhat thing might support that
outcome.
Tina Maddock (35:05):
Um, that's why one of my favorite questions to um
when I when I talk to some ofthese retailers, I'm asking
their floor teams, like, how areyou greeting people when they
come in the door?
And most of them are veryfriendly and they're like, hey,
we're so happy you're heretoday, or hey, welcome to the
store.
And it kind of stops there manytimes.
(35:28):
And this is about sales, butit's also about getting people
to the right um products and andservices that they need.
But just asking that question,what brought you into the store
today?
What are you looking to solve?
What outcome are you lookingfor?
That's another way to say sortof the same thing that can then
guide how you guide someoneelse, which will ultimately, the
(35:51):
moment that you start helpingpeople reach their goals or
solve their problem, ultimatelythat's gonna lead to more sales.
And so it's just a really greatpractice to start that
relationship in that way.
Like, why, why are you here andwhat are you trying to
accomplish being here?
And let me help you find theright thing that you're looking
for.
Liza Docken (36:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I at when I was in retail, Ihad um I had a training with
Catherine from Wishgarden Herbs,and I remember her telling me
that the produce section is likeyour best source, right?
For medicine.
And I'm thinking about it interms of like, that's your
(36:33):
foundation.
And then how do you build onthat, right?
And the wellness departmentcomes after that.
So you start with thatfoundation.
Um, because at the end of theday, oftentimes what you're
getting in the wellnessdepartment is some element of
what's available in the producesection in a different form.
And so I don't know.
I mean, I think about it, youknow, I'm getting a little
(36:55):
whimsical now, but it's verymuch that like what's the
biggest picture?
And so again, when you asksomeone what's your desired
outcome, you're able to thensay, well, let's look at this
spectrum.
So someone would, I remember acustomer came in and, you know,
he was having digestive issues.
So I recommended a product fromthe wellness department, a
(37:18):
product from produce, and aproduct from the cooler.
And he came back the next dayand gave me this huge hug
because he felt better, youknow.
And so there are ways toincorporate all things.
And I think that that'simportant to remember too in
retail, because we can get stuckin like I only recommend herbs,
I only recommend vitamins, Ionly recommend essential oils, I
(37:39):
only recommend, you know what.
But to get that broader imagegoing too, I think is just helps
get at all of those pieces.
Tina Maddock (37:49):
Yeah.
So talk to me a little bitabout now that we're into this
retail sales, helping customersconversation.
Um, you mentioned earlier inthe podcast, and I did want to
loop back around to it, that umthere's a way of thinking
outside the box for essentialoils.
Like, what are the main reasonsthat someone gets and uses an
essential oil?
(38:10):
And then let's move next intookay, what's outside more
outside of the box, or what arethere things that people and
consumers and the people on thefloor are just not thinking
about they could use essentialoils to do?
Liza Docken (38:25):
I would say it's obviously aromatherapy starts
with aromatics.
Um, people are looking forsomething to put in their
diffuser, or maybe they like toput a drop of essential oil on
the shower floor, and thatsteams up for them while they're
showering personal careproducts.
It's really around, it startsaround that aromatic piece.
(38:48):
And, you know, when we talkabout aromatherapy as a
practice, we're most familiar inthis country with the English
model of aromatherapy, which ischoosing oils for the aromatics
and then using themaromatically, and that's
beautiful.
Um, but then we obviously stillare not still, but have begun
(39:10):
and are continuing with thistheme of internal use.
And I think that, you know,that starts getting into the
therapeutics because thearomatics of the oil are not
what we're concerned about.
If we're taking theminternally, we're using them to
support our health and wellnessin a more profound way.
Then you need to know whatconstituents are present because
those constituents are theactive ingredients that support
(39:33):
us.
So you have this aromaticpiece, which is a beautiful
practice, and we we employ thatat Pronorum as well.
But but then you do have thatconversation of moving toward
the internal use piece.
And one needs to be incrediblycareful going there.
There have to be certainguidelines and safety measures
in place in terms of what's thedelivery system and how do we
(39:57):
how do we inform our customersin a way that they stay safe.
But then between those two,it's these blends that can be
put together for therapeuticusage.
And so what I think retailersoften don't consider is that,
you know, if they carrypronorome as an example and they
(40:18):
have a customer come in to say,I'm having an allergic reaction
to the pollen or to, you know,whatever it might be, or I have
a cold and I'm having a hardtime breathing, the likelihood
of that staff bringing them toour sinus formula as an example
(40:38):
is not as likely as them beingbrought to the herbal tinctures
or the vitamins, you know, somesupplement in there.
And oftentimes there'scrossover in ingredients if you
look at, say, the sinus formulaversus something you might find
in a tincture or a supplement.
And so I think that's a placewhere aromatherapy can grow if
(41:02):
people are formulating with thatin mind.
So unfortunately, there's not aton of formulation outside of
pranerome happening in that way.
I think it'll increase as timegoes on.
I think we're really startingto see this turn in how
aromatherapy is presented andreceived in the retail sector.
And so when we think aboutusage like that, that's outside
(41:24):
the box.
That's like, you know, whenthey you when they are brought
to the aromatherapy set, they'relike, oh, uh, well, I don't
need something that smells good.
And it's like, well, this isn'tformulated to smell a certain
way, it's formulated to supportyou in a certain way.
That helps them open uh theireyes to what aromatherapy can
do.
Because if you think about, Imean, my most favorite little
(41:49):
tidbit in this realm is that thebulk of essential oils that are
created in the world areutilized in the food product
industry, not in the wellnessside.
So it's flavorings for sodasand canned foods and things like
that.
Um, they're utilized forpersonal care products and go
beyond that, but they really areeither flavoring or aromatics
(42:13):
and not even being used in theway we think of aromatherapy.
So people are using essentialoils probably daily if they
don't, you know, they may notknow it.
So I think that that helps themsee, like, oh wait, I've
already, I've already got thisin my life, but it's it's then
(42:33):
in that delivery system, it'sabout the dilution, right?
Those are the probably two mostimportant things for people to
know as they start to thinkoutside the box in terms of
aromatherapy.
What do I know about thisproduct?
You know, what what kind ofdocumentation supports this
product?
And then wow, I had no ideathat I could use something, you
(42:56):
know, to support my symptoms ofshingles or athlete's foot or
whatever it might be, we cansupport those symptoms with
essential oils.
It doesn't have to be, youknow, something else.
Um but that I mean, there's alot of room for that still for
growth in in that in thatdepartment.
(43:16):
So that just to loop back tothat piece around, you know, the
more affordable brands.
Um often they're moreaffordable, A, obviously,
because they're not organic, butthey're not being tested.
And so then we can't use themthe same way until we get some
kind of certification aroundwhat constituents are present
there.
But, you know, it's amultifaceted thing.
(43:38):
I mean, it's really interestingbecause I remember when I first
started in the 90s in thehealth food store, you know, we
had like one brand.
Um, it looked familiar.
I'm sure my mom had had thatbefore, and it was, you know, an
aromatic moment.
Absolutely.
I mean, it was rose geranium.
I remember the carpet, thefloor, yeah, the floor, the you
(43:59):
know, the shelves on the wall.
Like I know exactly where I waswhen that happened, and I
smelled it.
It was like everything opened.
So it opens, and then where dowe go?
And and hopefully I do my jobwell enough that the staff knows
how to support.
Tina Maddock (44:16):
Yeah, those are all great.
And you know, thinking aboutdifferent um recipes, use cases
for some of these essential oilsum can also be fun for the
staff, the team to dig into anddo a little research for
(44:36):
themselves as well, because theyall have use cases they could
have they could be using for umessential oils, among other
things.
And so it's always easiest ifthey start from, hey, I'm
solving my own problem or justmaking my life a little bit
better in these areas.
And so, okay, well, maybe howcould I do that with things that
(45:00):
are right here in the store?
And that leads to the abilityto educate other people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, here's an interestingconversation.
Um, market from a marketingperspective, there is something
about scents.
So you were just talking aboutyou remember the moment that you
(45:21):
had that smell, the rosegeranium, and it probably brings
out very strong memories foryou because that happens with
smells.
Um, there's also a lot ofresearch around what makes
people feel at home, or whatscents make people feel a sense
of community or connected orfocused or um calming and that
(45:43):
sort of thing.
And so, what's the vibe thatyou want to give in your store?
What are your thoughts aroundhaving that aromatherapy running
in the store?
Liza Docken (45:53):
Well, I think it's a great idea in terms of that
scent, then becomes theirtouchstone to your store.
Because when you breathe in,you're if you're breathing in
through your nose, it's cominginto the limbic system of your
brain, in which is housed manyelements, including the part of
(46:16):
your brain that's focusing onmemory.
And that's why when I smellcardamom, I'm suddenly in my
grandma's kitchen baking withher.
Um, we've all had thatexperience.
And so you as a retailer, youas a store, they get to set, you
know, you get to set the stage.
You get to decide, like, okay,every time someone walks in,
(46:37):
they're gonna have this smell.
That's associated with supportfrom staff, feeling better after
they've started taking whateverit is they might have bought.
Um, you know, I think that weget into that conversation
around scent sensitivity andthen people not wanting things
diffuse.
So I always recommend startingreally subtle.
(46:59):
You know, there's some reallygreat ways that are very subtle,
but oftentimes sensesensitivities develop because of
synthetic.
And so if you're diffusingsomething that is not guaranteed
to be synthetic, that is, youknow, a pure, truly, usually
that's through organic orconstituent-based testing, um,
(47:20):
then you're not gonna have theissues with that type of thing.
But I know some stores theyjust have a policy where they
can't diffuse.
That doesn't mean you can'tstill have some aromatic
element.
Um but yeah, I think I thinkthat's a really great way
because also, you know, there'splenty of studies showing it's
(47:42):
like when realtors bake cookiesin a home before they have an
open house, right?
Yeah.
How do you set the stage forpeople to feel comfortable and
not as a way to manipulatesales, but just like if you feel
comfortable, you're more likelyto interact with the staff.
That's my situation, anyway.
If I'm comfortable and feelinggood in myself, I'm gonna talk
(48:02):
to people more likely, have thatconversation, and then walk
away with more support.
Whether I just got an educationand maybe never bought
anything.
Um, I'm a huge proponent ofeducation first, and then let's
see how it goes from there.
But um, aromatics play a hugerole in supporting someone.
I can tell you, I people wouldwalk into the wellness
(48:24):
department where I last worked,flustered, end of the day,
didn't know what they came infor.
They're having a moment, andI'd say, let's just let's just
go over here.
And we would pick up anessential oil and we'd rub a
drop in our palms and cup it andbring it to our nose.
You know, we'd breathe in andthat would be it.
And then they'd be like, Oh,you know what?
I actually came in for lettuce,you know, and then they'd leave
(48:46):
the fine, no problem.
But like now they remember thatthey went to that store and
they were supported, and thenboom, you're you're you're a
reliable resource.
Um and I think that's all anyof us are looking for.
Where can I go that feelsreliable?
Where can I go where I feellike I trust people and what
they're saying and what they'reoffering?
(49:07):
I mean, it is we're in a placeright now that feels a little
disconnected, wacky.
So, like, how do we feel alittle more aligned, centered,
connected?
Like you said, that's a greatword.
I I think aromatics can supportthat absolutely.
Tina Maddock (49:25):
Yeah, so I love that as a tool to help build
relationship.
So everything we talk about, Imean, marketing is all about
building a relationship.
And then the sales come becauseyou have um a friend, you have
a trusted ally, you have aconsultant that you believe in,
and again, you know is reliable.
(49:46):
So I believe that doing usingsome of these, whether it's an
aromatic, whether you'rediffusing, or like you said, if
someone comes in and they areworked up, head over to the
essential oils and have a chatand um help them decompress so
that they can communicate withyou.
(50:06):
It's just a tool for betterconnection, a better way for
them to get back to themselves,like you were talking about.
It does not have to be seen asI'm trying to make you buy more
things or manipulate you likeyou were talking about.
I think it's if we look at allof these as tools for connection
and relationship, then I thinkthe store ends up doing better
(50:28):
anyway.
Yep, absolutely.
Yeah.
Okay.
Any trends you want to talkabout with co-op or other
marketing activities aroundessential oils?
I mean, we really did dig in alittle bit today to talk about,
even on the floor, like what youcan do.
So I'm very happy.
These are tactics people canuse today.
But is there anything else thatcomes to mind when you're
(50:48):
talking about marketingactivities around essential
oils?
Liza Docken (50:52):
I think that what really speaks to people is
meeting them where they're at interms of what season is it?
What is happening in the world,the real world, even if we
won't don't want to see it,which a lot of us don't, um, but
need to in some way or oranother.
(51:14):
I think that speaking to, likeI just did a webinar about
seasonal transition.
What does that look like?
What does that mean?
How does that affect usphysically, emotionally,
whatever it might be?
And we know the basics, right?
We go into winter wellness andthen we need, you know, to
support our immune systems, butthere is that transition from
(51:35):
one to the other.
And obviously, then too, weconsider that not all climates
are the same.
So those in the southern statesaren't going to have quite the
shift.
And yet, light is changing.
The weather patterns arechanging, and that will disrupt
the equilibrium of the entiresystem, whether it's again
physically or emotionally.
(51:55):
So I love what we've been doinga lot lately is focusing on
those transitions, focusing onwhere we are in the moment.
And then obviously it's likemaybe there's, you know,
whatever it might be, school isstarting, or we're talking about
spring breaks or whatever.
But the more real you make itfor people, yeah.
(52:16):
You know, and then loop inthose pieces, maybe if it works,
you know, where because socialmedia is a thing, it's
absolutely a thing.
It has some good, has somenegatives, but you can loop in
ways to connect because thegenerational thing, what I find
really interesting is that youknow, Gen Z and Gen Alpha,
(52:40):
they're on the track to beingour next consumers given their
age.
They are deeply immersed in thescreen experience of life, and
also understand that there's ananother element out there in the
real world, which is prettycool to see because you know,
for a while there we werelooking like we were gonna just
(53:01):
try to live on our screens.
And so I'm hopeful about thatbecause then you can tie those
two pieces in.
Yeah, there's a social mediainfluence to certain things,
whether that's like vernacularor whatever it might be, but
then what's happening out there?
And how do we marry those twoto create something really nice
in terms of what you said,feeling connected?
(53:23):
I mean, I just love that.
How do we feel connected?
How do we connect generations?
How do we connect seasonaltransitions?
How do we do all of that?
Um, and it's just being real,in my opinion.
How real can we get?
Um, honesty is, I think, reallytreasured right now.
And so the more reliable youcome across, the more you're
(53:46):
gonna be listened to.
And that may seem like yeah,duh, but I think there's a lot
out there.
I mean, you can I can say a lotof things in a sort of
confident way, but it comesback, right?
You say something, they try it,they they feel supported in
that.
And so you work through that.
(54:07):
But but again, they're lookingfor a reliable source.
They need someone who's tellingthem something real.
Tina Maddock (54:15):
Yeah, and I think too, I love what you're talking
about, meeting them right wherethey are.
There are different life stagesfor different generations.
They're having an everydayexperience where they're looking
for help with things, orthere's a challenge or issue,
allergies, seasonal affecteddisorder.
(54:36):
I know we're not gonna talkabout medical things, but like,
um, but obviously there's aday-to-day that people are
encountering and they're justtrying to live their life and
care for the people they loveand, you know, be valuable in
the world for the most part.
And so, what are thoseexperiences?
And I do think the more thatyou have different generations
in your store, the more you'regonna be able to speak to the
(54:58):
different generations where theyare in that moment and how
they're feeling and the thingsthat they're encountering every
day.
Like, is it busy mom season?
Okay.
That's a whole separatesituation than, hey, I'm
experiencing paramenopause andmaybe some emptiness syndrome at
the same time.
So those just being able tospeak to people where they are,
(55:22):
and a lot of that comes fromhaving different people in your
store, or at least talking tothe customers and being real
about, hey, what's going on inyour life right now.
And then you're like, oh, I seethat a lot of my customers are
in this generation, in this lifestage, or in this season.
And then being able to haveconversations that are relevant
(55:43):
to them and not just you whereyou are, um, is very helpful.
unknown (55:49):
Yeah.
Tina Maddock (55:50):
And I think these retailers are just they have
tools and communities that canhelp people no matter their life
stage.
So it's great if they can startto say, no, I understand where
you are.
Um, and we're here with you.
Yeah.
All right.
So tell me, where can retailersfind you?
(56:11):
Maybe they aren't carrying youguys essential oil right now, or
maybe they want more education,or maybe they just got excited
about something you said andsay, I want this new product in
here.
How do they find you guys?
How do they get it?
Liza Docken (56:25):
Um so prana room.us is the easiest access point for
us.
Um, but we're at a lot of thetrade shows, so we're really out
there supporting.
Um we love the smaller shows.
Um, we go to the bigger ones,but the smaller shows really add
for that opportunity to havemore interaction.
So things like Soho um arereally helpful because you you
(56:51):
get to have that one-on-one.
But I would say those are thetwo primary ways to find us if
you're in retail and looking tofind more.
The website is hugelyinformative, um, just in terms
of every, you know, there's aneducation section, there's the
products.
Um that is really ourtransparency and education, I
(57:11):
would say, are two tenantsreally in terms of like we want
you to understand so that youcan support yourself better.
Um, I try to convey that whenI'm speaking at events, um, but
also just at the table withretailers as they're coming
around.
So those would be the twoprimary, yeah.
Tina Maddock (57:28):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much foryour time.
This is look, I think there aretools that people got in this
conversation they could take anduse in their store tomorrow.
And also, I think there's awhole world that you yourself
offer from an educationalperspective that could really
enrich the store community andum the education that they can
(57:48):
provide for their employees.
So thank you so much for beingon the show.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much for joiningus for the latest episode of the
Natural Products Marketerpodcast, where we're here to
help you grow your business soyou can serve more people and
change more lives.
If you have any questions thathave come up during this episode
(58:09):
or others, or there's just aretail challenge that you're
facing today, I would love foryou to reach out to us at info
at naturalproductsmarketer.com.
We're here to answer questions.
But most of all, if you have aquestion, then another retailer
probably also has that question.
So we can bring experts ontothe podcast to give you the
(58:30):
information that you reallyneed.
And if you liked what youheard, give us a thumbs up or
give us a review on uh YouTube,Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you're listening today.
All right, it was great to seeyou.
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