January 22, 2025 • 31 mins
Join us for an enlightening conversation with Sarah Burden, a fervent advocate for natural supplements. Discover how a single pivotal encounter reshaped her views on health and beauty, fueling her passion for natural remedies. Sarah delves into the significance of proving the efficacy of natural products through human clinical trials, shedding light on how these rigorous tests can win over skeptics and secure credibility within the medical community.
We also tackle the complexities of quality control, exploring the meticulous art of clinical research for dietary supplements. Sarah discusses the hurdles of manufacturing placebos for products like greens powders and tinctures, and how creative problem-solving ensures these placebos remain inactive. With insights drawn from Dr. Greger's "How Not to Age," we guide listeners on identifying trustworthy supplements, emphasizing the importance of scrutinizing labels and certifications to avoid the pitfalls of inauthentic products sold on platforms like Amazon.
As we venture into marketing strategies within the supplement industry, Sarah shares innovative approaches that harness customer feedback to drive engagement. Learn how capturing user-generated content during product trials can transform participants into brand advocates, while third-party certifications combat counterfeiting and ensure consumer protection. With Sarah's infectious enthusiasm and deep insights, this episode promises to equip you with valuable knowledge and a fresh perspective on the ever-evolving world of natural products.
Connect with us:
Email: info@naturalproductsmarketer.com
About Amanda Ballard
Amanda has worked in natural products marketing in the retail setting since 2016 and has a great understanding of the unique challenges and opportunities that retailers in this industry face. More than anything, she wants this industry to continue to boom and believes much of that success hinges on the ability of retailers to do well in their businesses and market their products effectively.
About Tina Smith
Since 2014, Tina has worked with multiple natural products businesses, discovering how to market their CBD products online, without having their payment processor shut them down, to letting customers talk about their health issues those products have helped them solve. She knows first hand how experts like you offer the best products and a superior customer experience, that is why she is committed to helping you find an easy way to grow your natural product business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Burden (00:00):
We kept being asked about this main competitor
product that made some reallybold claims around inflammation
and one night at the hotel we'rehaving dinner, he pulls up his
computer and starts clickingaround and really looking into
their research.
And he was like Sarah the onlystudy showing that it helps
fight inflammation was on sevenobese cats and we, like, laid
(00:20):
our heads down on the table.
Yeah, just imagine, likeGarfield or something right,
just because it works forGarfield does not mean it's
going to work for my body.
Tina Smith (00:31):
Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer
podcast.
I'm Tina.
Amanda Ballard (00:35):
And I'm Amanda and we're here to make marketing
easier for natural productsbusinesses so you can reach more
people and change more lives,can reach more people and change
more lives.
Hey guys, welcome back toNatural Products Marketer.
We are so glad to be joinedtoday by Sarah Burden.
(00:58):
I have known Sarah for quitesome time now.
I actually have a vivid memoryof meeting Sarah.
It was at Expo West gosh sixplus years ago and I remember
walking up to the booth that shewas working at and my
colleagues were already thereand they were just nerding out
everything that Sarah had to sayand I was like who is this lady
(01:18):
?
So then I joined the party andI realized I was like this woman
is a genius and she's hilarious.
And I was like why woman is agenius and she's hilarious?
And I was like why can't morepeople be like Sarah?
So, sarah, thank you so muchfor being here today.
Sarah Burden (01:32):
What a great intro .
I love it so much.
Thank you.
I do feel like I deliveredutainment right.
We've got the facts, but alsothe razzle dazzle, so thank you
for picking up on that.
Tina Smith (01:45):
It was instantaneous , so and as fellow nerds, we
appreciate the nerd part and weare also, like, fans of the
office and parks and recreation.
So we are here for the fun.
Sarah Burden (01:59):
Excellent, excellent.
We got to have that balance inlife, right.
Amanda Ballard (02:03):
Yep, yeah.
So, sarah, tell us a little bitabout who you are and where
you're at now, and how you gotinto this industry in the first
place.
Sarah Burden (02:12):
Well, wonderful.
Thanks again so much forinviting me to your podcast.
I'm thrilled to be here withyou both.
So I've been working insupplements since 2002, which
feels bonkers to say that somuch of my life has been in this
industry.
But I had been working incosmetics and skincare, working
at department stores, and acouple people I worked with had
(02:34):
started to question some of theingredients in the formulas we
sold at 21, 22,.
Never crossed my mind.
But one day I was selling areally expensive cream to a
customer and she leaned acrossthe counter and she said you
know that it's more about whatyou put into your body than what
you put on your body, right?
And that was a pivotal momentfor me because it had not
(02:55):
occurred to me before that I wasa typical young 20-something
eating garbage food, right, andstaying up late, never hydrating
, no bottles of water ever.
And it was showing up in myskin.
So she said there's a healthfood store down the street.
You should go check it out.
So I wandered into my firsthealth food store mind blown the
(03:17):
grind, your own peanut buttermachine and bottles of herbs I'd
never heard of.
And it just became my newpassion.
So I got the big, famous bulgebook of natural remedies and I
just started reading it all thetime, learning as much as I
could, and I eventually gothired there in that department
(03:38):
and started to be able tointeract with customers, where I
learned so much from thecustomers, from my coworkers,
from the different reps who camearound, and I went to every
training that anyone would letme attend.
I would go off the clock if Ineeded to, just to try to soak
up as much as I could.
So I've been in the naturalproduct industry since then.
Amanda Ballard (04:04):
Awesome.
It's funny.
We talk a lot about howsometimes your best hires are
your customers.
Yes, and so you're definitely atestament to that.
Sarah Burden (04:13):
I was that person, for sure.
I wandered in like a babe inthe woods like what is all this
stuff, and never heard thepronunciation of most of these
herbs.
But I wanted to know.
Tina Smith (04:26):
Well, sarah, I'm so excited for you to tell us more
about your company, because Iwas doing a little background.
Look into what's going on, andit's something I have a passion
for, which is the testing ofthese products.
So tell us everything.
How did it start, what made youget into that business and get
that started, and what do you do?
Sarah Burden (04:48):
Yeah, no great question.
So I think there's a number ofdifferent tracks you can take
when you stay in the industryfor a long time and you learn
more.
Maybe you want to get more intothe storytelling art within the
industry, Maybe you want to getinto the formulation part, and
so I was kind of dabblinglooking at all of these
different areas and I came backto the same place you did, Tina,
(05:09):
that if we can't prove that theproducts are effective, here's
part of it.
We just had our block party.
I've got a great block, we havea wonderful community, and when
I say I work in the naturalproducts industry, I can feel
that thing that happens wherepeople either are afraid I'm
going to try to enlist them in amulti-level marketing scheme or
they think everything we do issnakeern.
(05:31):
And she shared that her mom washaving blood sugar issues and I
said you know, there's somereally good evidence for
cinnamon, something as simple ascinnamon.
(05:51):
This was before Jim Nima waskind of the go-to and she said,
oh, I would really need to seesome research before I'd ever be
willing to recommend that to mymom.
And at the time I thought, gosh, it's got 2000 years of
traditional use in India andAyurvedic medicine, but she
needed research, and so that'sone of those other kind of
pivotal moments of shaping yourworldview right.
(06:12):
Someone in the medicalcommunity is going to need to
see a published human clinicaltrial, randomized, controlled
gold standard clinical trial.
So that's what radical scienceprovides.
So most clinical trials are runthrough organizations that can
either accommodatepharmaceuticals or they'll take
on dietary supplement clinicaltrials as well.
(06:35):
But the format was really builtfor the pharma model that you
can take a small sample size 12to 48 people is sort of the
average for a pharmaceuticaltrial and because of the
drug-like effect of apharmaceutical you can kind of
capture that change in somehealth metric quickly in a small
population.
(06:56):
Dietary supplements don't worklike drugs.
That's the definition.
That's why we can sell themover the counter, and so it does
take a larger population toreally get a good idea.
And because we are all sodifferent in the way that we
respond, they don't have adrug-like effect, they have a
food-like effect, a botanicaleffect, and so Radical created a
platform where dietarysupplement brands or ingredient
(07:20):
suppliers can get human clinicalevidence here in the US from a
diverse group of people toreally find the true effects of
the supplement and during theR&D process, to really finesse a
formula so that it works forthe demographic that you're
looking to target.
Amanda Ballard (07:38):
Wow, that's so fascinating.
Yeah, I love that.
Tina Smith (07:40):
I know, and I think there's so much research that
can be done in this industrythat has yet to be done and some
of the trials that are outthere.
I have a lot of questionsaround what form of this are
they using?
Is it pure?
Because you get varyingfeedback from some of these
(08:02):
trials where you're like I feellike there's more evidence that
is should come our way, thatthis thing will work, and, at
the same time, what are theyusing?
So how do we know that this isthe right thing and the right
formulation?
And so it's nice to hear thatthere's someone with your
background that's getting intothis work to help test, because
(08:24):
we do know that there aredifferent kinds of products on
the market, some that have veryeffective formulations and some
that don't even contain whatthey say are on the bottles.
Sarah Burden (08:35):
Right?
No, it's absolutely true.
And yeah, it was only in 2022that the FTC issued some
clarification on their guidancethat if you, as a supplement
company, are making a bold claimon your product, there needs to
be human clinical research toback that up and it needs to be
on a like population.
I'll never forget this wasprobably close to 10 years ago,
(09:01):
but a good colleague of mine andI, who had done a lot of
trainings across the country, wekept being asked about this
main competitor product thatmade some really bold claims
around inflammation.
And one night at the hotelwe're having dinner, he pulls up
his computer and startsclicking around and really
looking into the research and hewas like Sarah.
The only study showing that ithelps fight inflammation was on
seven obese cats and we, like,laid our heads down on the table
(09:25):
.
Yeah, just imagine, likeGarfield or something right,
because it works for Garfielddoes not mean it's going to work
for my body.
So you're so right, tina, thatthe standard of what counts as
evidence.
It's been a little shoddysometimes within the industry,
so the FTC has sort of tightenedthat guidance like, hey, it
needs to be people.
If you're selling to anAmerican audience, it needs to
(09:46):
be Americans.
Because if a study is done inIndia primarily vegetarian diet,
tons of D3, lots of bodymovement is that going to have
the same effect on the Americanseating a standard American diet
?
It may not.
Maybe it does, but we need tobe able to prove that it does.
Amanda Ballard (10:03):
So if a manufacturer were to go through
the clinical trial phase withradical science, what does that
look like for them?
And then, what do they kind ofget as far as being able to,
like you know, come to find outtheir products?
Fantastic, Um, all of thesegreat things.
(10:23):
How can they then use that intheir marketing material to?
To tell that story.
Sarah Burden (10:28):
That's a great question.
So we feel like all data thatwe can get for you is good data.
And we've had some brilliantbrand partners who have even
shared from the stage at supplyside West when they had a
product that did not beatplacebo in terms of achieving
statistical significance andthey went back and reformulated
and I love that kind oftransparency, right, and I know
(10:50):
that there are major retailerswho also love that kind of
transparency that the brandinvested in science, saw what
the outcome was and then madechanges to bring the most
effective product to themarketplace.
That's going to ensure customersatisfaction, loyalty, trust to
not only that brand but thenall of the retailers who feature
(11:12):
that brand and our industry asa whole.
Then I won't have my neighborsat the barbecue saying that
stuff's a bunch of hogwash.
So we love being able toprovide the data and insights.
Even in a pharmaceutical trial,only about 20% of drugs that
would go through a trial end upachieving statistical
significance against placebo.
So it is an uphill battle toachieve that.
(11:34):
So all data we say is good databecause then you'll know more,
you'll be able to see how yourstuff is really affecting your
customers.
But sometimes we find thingslike hey, maybe overall, maybe
it didn't achieve statisticalsignificance, but for women over
40, this thing was a home run.
Well, now maybe that companycan reposition this formula as a
(11:55):
women over 40 sleep aid orwhatever, right?
So now you have a demographicwho does respond to it, right?
So there are a number of thingsyou can do.
If the product ends up beingsuper successful, then the study
can help substantiate theclaims that you want to make
helps customers get a goodnight's sleep.
We've had brands who share thestatistics on their website 87%
(12:18):
of participants in a humanrandomized controlled trial saw
better sleep quality within sixweeks.
So there are a number ofdifferent claims you can make
with the outcome of your trial.
But you can tinker, you canimprove, you can shift your
demographics, you can get moreROI on your marketing, because
you're going to be just talkingto the people who have the
(12:40):
highest likelihood of reallyfeeling the effect of the
formula.
And if manufacturers, brands,come to us during that R&D phase
, we can really help optimizetheir cost of goods.
We've had a brand partner whocame pre-market to us and tested
their formulation at 25milligrams, 50 milligrams, 75
milligrams.
(13:00):
They were all effective, butwith the same degree of efficacy
.
Well, you can just manufacturethe 25 milligram because
everyone felt the same.
So there are a lot of optionsof how brands and ingredient
manufacturers can utilize thedata, which turn into more
credibility for retailers, moresatisfaction for the end
(13:20):
consumer.
Tina Smith (13:22):
So here's a thing that I'm really interested in,
because you're talking abouthelps with sleep over age 40 or
45 for women, what Deshae isalways on everyone's minds.
So what are the things that youcan do with clinical trials and
the data that you get, and whatare some things that maybe you
cannot do still, yeah, that's agreat question, and this year in
(13:45):
October will be the 30thanniversary of the Deshaies Act
passing.
Sarah Burden (13:49):
I just got to be in Salt Lake City for the
Deshaies Summit celebrating 30years and get to hear from folks
who are in the room you knowwhen that was enacted and the
hard work that went into placein order to keep the industry
safe no-transcript healthcondition, and so this is one of
(14:39):
the reasons I wanted to comework at Radical.
Two of the brands I'd worked forin the past invested in
clinical research.
So, like stage one is, I wantmore brands to invest in
clinical research, but asteriskclinical research that's being
guided by people who understandDeshaies, understand the
regulatory landscape of thedietary supplement industry,
because especially one brand Iworked for did not understand
(15:03):
regulations, did not understandDeshaies spent a huge amount of
money on a study to prove thatthe product could have an effect
on cholesterol, not realizingthey were not going to be able
to say this lowers cholesterol,even if they proved it.
So that was unfortunately not agreat spend.
So I think if a brand isthinking about clinical research
(15:25):
, partner with a platform, withan organization who is focused
on the dietary supplement space,so that you don't accidentally
blow five years worth ofresearch funds on something that
you can never share externally.
Right, it was such aheartbreaker to see.
So when I saw Radical's modelit was almost like if you take a
kid bumper bowling like, you'renot going to accidentally wind
(15:45):
up with a non-compliant claimhere.
Tina Smith (15:47):
We're not going to accidentally wind up with a
non-compliant claim here.
Yes, that sounds like huge.
Amanda Ballard (15:51):
Yeah, such a needed service.
Yeah, we think yeah, very, verycool.
So I'm curious, just because Ilike to know these types of
things what are some of thethings behind the scenes that
happen in a clinical trial thatmaybe people don't know about?
Sarah Burden (16:15):
Oh, it's a good question.
So one thing that is trickierthan anyone ever expects is
getting your placebomanufactured.
So especially so many brandswork with co-manufacturers.
They have their scheduleplanned so far in advance and
then you need to run 500 bottlesof a placebo.
That can be tricky.
So starting the process earlierthan you think is a really good
idea.
If you think you're going towant to pursue clinical research
(16:37):
because you have to getscheduled into the line, it's
not a moneymaker for theco-manufacturer, so you're going
to get relegated to the verylast possible moment.
So kind of building that intothe schedule and just the kind
of cleverness and creativitythat needs to go into sometimes
building a placebo.
What if I have a client whomakes a greens powder?
(16:59):
What's the placebo going to be?
It can't be anything botanicalbecause it has to have no effect
, right?
So there's no herb or greenthat I can give them.
It's going to have zero effect.
So we're going to have noeffect, right?
So there's no herb or greenthat I can give them, that's
going to have zero effect.
So we're going to have to getkind of crafty with that.
If it's a tincture, same kindof thing, right, it has to match
and be undetectably differentfrom the active.
(17:21):
So I think that's one of thekind of interesting light bulb
moments that most people havewhen they start thinking about a
true gold standard clinicaltrial versus an open label
consumer impression study.
So a consumer impression studycan be great for market research
, but it can't substantiate aclaim because there's no control
against something that looksidentical so that we can account
(17:42):
statistically for that placeboeffect, which in our industry is
really strong.
Tina Smith (17:48):
Yeah, well, this is amazing and I it makes me think
of I've been reading this book,how not to age by Dr Greger.
Yeah, at the very beginning hetalks about how many of the
supplements don't have what theysay are in the supplement.
So, tell us a little bit moreabout how can just a consumer
(18:09):
know that they're getting whatthey think they're getting?
What should they be looking forand what kind of certifications
should they see?
Or what are the labelingpractices that have to be done
that do protect the consumer?
Sarah Burden (18:23):
Yeah Well, I heard a piece of advice a couple
years back, during the height ofthe pandemic, when we're all
trying to figure out what wecould possibly take for our
immune system and trying to dothings remotely, and someone
told me don't put anything onyour body or into your body that
you bought from Amazon, which Ithought was pretty startling
advice to hear.
But then, more as more and moretrickles out and we've got
(18:45):
industry leaders like Now Foodswho will do a big sweep and
order a bunch of things onlinefrom Amazon and then test it and
it doesn't turn out to beauthentic.
It doesn't have the recommendedlabel amount or the declared
label amount.
So I think that's one thingthat unfortunately, there is a
lot of counterfeiting thathappens and it's in the most
(19:07):
popular categories, right?
So if you're Googling orsearching turmeric creatine, the
most popular supplementingredients are the ones that
are getting counterfeited.
So working with a brand or aretailer who you trust and who
has established credibility, Ithink is a great place to start
(19:28):
I look for personally as ashopper, I look for CGMP status
of the manufacturer to make surethat they're following those
standard good manufacturingprocesses.
Nsf certification is certainlya great third party that I like
to see on the supplements Iconsume and that I give to my
family too.
So I think some of those thirdparty certifications are really
(19:50):
smart to have and I think also,just as consumers, we always
want to keep, you know, ourlittle spidey sense going that
if this deal seems too good tobe true, right, if this
supplement is a fraction of thecost of all the rest of the pack
.
You know, when it comes topricing on this supplement, I
have to ask myself why.
Tina Smith (20:17):
Yeah, 100%, and it just makes me think the reason
that you're calling these thingsout and scrape for them to be
on the label and I know that itcosts some of the manufacturers
more money to make sure thatthey're certified or that
they've got some othertransparency happening and that
they're acting in good faith andthat they are actually
producing the product thatthey're saying they are
(20:37):
producing and doing things likethat protects the consumer and
protects them as a manufacturer.
So I love seeing these practicesput into place and we know that
there are bad actors that areout there and unfortunately, it
feels like a tax.
You know that we have to do allof these things and do
(20:58):
disclosures and havecertifications and at the same
time, it's nice to hear and Ithink that we should be the ones
that are trumpeting this onbehalf of these manufacturers
and telling people this is whoyou can trust, because there are
people that are out thereYou're right making counterfeit
substances on Amazon, and we arenot in favor of consumers
(21:24):
wasting money on somethingthat's not going to have
efficacy, and so that's why wewant to be the champions of the
manufacturers who are gettingthis right.
And there are some lovelymanufacturers who are very
transparent, honest, do theresearch, have things tested and
they make sure that what theyclaim on their label is what's
in that product.
Sarah Burden (21:43):
Absolutely Part of the Dachet Summit.
I was just at involved thecurrent leader of the Office of
Dietary Supplements from the FDAspeaking on the panel.
I always think she's brave forshowing up because there's going
to be grumbles in the audiencefull of folks working in the
dietary supplement industryright about some of the
decisions or the way that thingsget run.
(22:03):
So I always respect her forshowing up at these events.
But it's clear just frompatterns over the years that
office is really underfunded.
They don't have the amount ofresources or staff to be
investigating as manymanufacturers as there are now.
The size of that office hasn'tkept up with the growth of our
industry and so there are tradeassociations within the natural
(22:25):
products industry CRN comes tomind that really do advocate for
that sort of self-policing.
You know, like how, how can weput some best practices into
place, that a standard we canall rise to, and then the FDA
can say oh, check, look, they'redoing.
They're doing all of thesethings that we would like to see
.
Amanda Ballard (22:43):
Yeah.
So, sarah, if, if anyone wantedto learn more about radical
science how to go through, youknow, a clinical trial for
themselves and their brand howcould they do that and ways that
they could get in touch?
Sarah Burden (22:58):
Yeah, anyone can reach out to us through the
radical science website, andwe're radical spelled CLE
instead ofL.
The radical is the first rootof a plant that grows
underground.
So we feel like we're breakingnew ground with our model.
We're kind of doing things in aradical way, but with that
organic growth happening in anew territory, so they can reach
(23:20):
out to us to find out more.
Clinical trials are what we do,but because of our unique model
our completely virtual model weactually are able to gather
quite a bit of market researchfor brands as well.
So, in addition to the datathat will help substantiate
claims, we gather a lot of datathat people go elsewhere for for
(23:40):
consumer research, and sothat's all built into our trial
model trial models.
So folks in marketing teams,salespeople, r&d folks all
really benefit from the kinds ofdata that we're able to
generate around an ingredient, aformulation in your innovation
pipeline or an establishedlegacy product.
Tina Smith (24:00):
Tell me a little bit more about these market
research pieces.
How do you get started withthat?
What are you learning?
Who are you asking Like, howdoes that work?
Sarah Burden (24:11):
Yeah, so the participants who agree to be a
part of a radical trial.
We have 500 participants perstudy every time, so 250 will
receive the active product, 250receive the placebo.
We also can offer multi-armstudies.
So we have sometimes a thousandfolks in a study.
I think we've got one in thequeue that's going to have 2000
people in the study.
(24:32):
So that's a ton of data thatwe'll be able to generate
through six weeks of interactingwith all those participants.
Some of the questions thatthey're getting specifically
deal with whatever kind of studythat they're in.
If it's a sleep product, right,they're getting questions all
throughout about how many hoursdid you sleep last night, over
the last week, would you say,the quality of your sleep
(24:53):
improved, declined, right?
So they're reporting back ontheir feelings, their fatigue,
their energy levels, theircognition, and so we're
collecting all that data to helpwith the outcome of the study.
But, in addition, if a brand,say, delivers their supplement
by a sachet, like a stick packsachet, and maybe this is in the
(25:15):
innovation pipeline, this isstill in the R&D phase Well,
we're collecting all that dataabout the health outcomes.
But we could also be askingquestions like how easily did
this dissolve in your liquid?
Did you use hot or cold water?
Did you like the flavor?
Would you have liked it?
An easier tear stick pack,right?
So we can be collecting allkinds of that real-time data as
well, and that's incrediblyvaluable, as you can imagine, to
(25:37):
anyone developing a product.
You don't want to get it allthe way rolled out and find out
everyone hates the mode ofdelivery, or no one likes the
flavor, except for the threepeople who were on your R&D team
delivery, or no one likes theflavor except for the three
people who were on your R&D team, right.
We've all been at brands thathave seen that happen over time,
so it's a great way to kind ofavoid those kinds of lost
financial gains.
Tina Smith (25:59):
Yeah, and you know, there's something that we talk
about a lot in marketing isusing the words of your
customers.
They feel like you're readingtheir minds.
So it sounds like, especiallyif it's open-ended questions,
that they're giving you a lot ofkeywords really that people
like them would use.
So if they're a fan of theproduct, in the end and you use
(26:20):
those same words to attractother people, it will attract
other people like them.
Yeah, so that sounds great.
That sounds like a reallyamazing report If you could have
all the details behind it.
And then, man, I bet you'd alsoknow what people would search
online to find the product anddifferent language that you
(26:42):
could use to talk about thebenefits or why it's different
than another product.
Sarah Burden (26:47):
And it's my hope that eventually we'll be able to
capture user-generated video,maybe all through the process
right, we're not there yet butto be able to do that for folks
who are participating in thetrial, so that over the six
weeks we're collecting that dataand then at the end, what they
think about it, once they'reunblinded, and find out you know
what kinds of ingredients theywere taking.
(27:08):
So we do make it possible forbrands too, if and participants
are open to it, at the end ofthe trial to receive brand
marketing so that they and a lotof times they are clamoring to
find out like this really helpedme with my sleep, what was I
taking, you know.
So we give permission, if theparticipant agrees, for the
brand to reach out to them andsay surprise, you were taking
(27:30):
this right and now you have araving fan.
That's very cool.
Tina Smith (27:35):
Yeah, you know what else this makes me think, though
.
I'm like hey, how do I get onthat list, so I can try new
products?
Sarah Burden (27:42):
You can do that at radicalsciencecom as well, so
you can reach out in a kind ofsales capacity If you're
thinking you're a company, brandor retail and you'd like to
learn more about how you couldwork with us, and if you're
interested in being aparticipant in the trial, the
trials that are activelyrecruiting are listed and you
can click and be added.
So that's one of the otherthings.
Amanda, when you asked what aresome things behind the scenes
(28:04):
that people might not expect,the screening process is one
that I think not everyone thinksabout, because if you're taking
any medications that wouldpotentially have
contraindications, safety thingslike that we have a primary
investigator, dr Emily Pauly,who works for Radical Science,
and she is meticulous.
Nothing is more important toher than the protection of the
(28:27):
participants' health andidentity protection in terms of
anonymity throughout the study,but then also protecting their
health data at the end.
She is so scrupulous about that, so we feel really lucky to
have her on board Very cool.
Tina Smith (28:44):
Yeah, that's very interesting.
It sounds like a good pairingthat dovetails right into what
you guys are doing over there.
So the testing is that arequirement that they have to
have?
They have to show that what'sin their product is in what they
say is in their product isactually there, sorry as well,
(29:17):
wherever that's beenmanufactured.
Sarah Burden (29:18):
And then we quarantine everything product
and placebo and do a second runof all of those QA QC steps with
a third party lab that wecontract with, just because the
health and safety of all of ourparticipants is our primary, you
know, objective.
So we do that second run aswell.
Tina Smith (29:34):
Amazing.
Yeah, all right.
Well, I'm definitely going tothe website because I to see,
like, what trials are out thereand one of the reasons why, of
course, I'm going to sign up andbe like can I participate?
But one of the things I thinkeveryone could do is go look and
it'll give you some idea of newproducts that might be coming
to your area soon.
(29:55):
So some of our retailers mightget some ideas around what might
be popular that's coming in thedoor and what maybe they can
get before other places couldget them.
Sarah Burden (30:08):
That's a great idea.
Yeah, I love when I'm at ExpoWest Supply Side West I know
what's kind of coming around thebend in terms of industry
trends and especially on thesupplier side.
I start thinking like, oh, I'mgoing to start seeing some of
these kinds of formulas comeonto the marketplace soon, so I
think that's a great strategy.
Amanda Ballard (30:27):
Well, thank you so much for spending some time
with us today, Sarah.
You've been a just absolutepleasure to speak with and super
excited to see just all of thesuccess that you've had
throughout your years in theindustry and look forward to
just seeing what's next withSarah.
It's always something excitingand you're just great everywhere
(30:50):
you go.
So thank you again for spendingtime with us.
Sarah Burden (30:53):
Oh, I appreciate that, amanda, thank you so much.
It was a pleasure to be herewith you both.
It was a great conversation.
Thanks for having me.
Tina Smith (30:59):
Yeah, it was great to meet you.
I'm excited about getting tosee you at the shows in the
future.
Amanda Ballard (31:04):
Yeah, thanks so much for listening to the
Natural Products MarketerPodcast.
We hope you found this episodeto be super helpful.
Make sure you check out theshow notes for any of those
valuable resources that wementioned on today's episode.
Tina Smith (31:17):
And, before you go, we would love for you to give us
a review.
Follow, like and subscribe onApple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube
or wherever you're listeningtoday, and make sure you join us
for our next episode, where wegive you more marketing tips so
that you can reach more peopleand change more lives.
We kept being asked about this main competitor
product that made some reallybold claims around inflammation
and one night at the hotel we'rehaving dinner, he pulls up his
computer and starts clickingaround and really looking into
their research.
And he was like Sarah the onlystudy showing that it helps
fight inflammation was on sevenobese cats and we, like, laid
(00:20):
our heads down on the table.
Yeah, just imagine, likeGarfield or something right,
just because it works forGarfield does not mean it's
going to work for my body.
Tina Smith (00:31):
Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer
podcast.
I'm Tina.
Amanda Ballard (00:35):
And I'm Amanda and we're here to make marketing
easier for natural productsbusinesses so you can reach more
people and change more lives,can reach more people and change
more lives.
Hey guys, welcome back toNatural Products Marketer.
We are so glad to be joinedtoday by Sarah Burden.
(00:58):
I have known Sarah for quitesome time now.
I actually have a vivid memoryof meeting Sarah.
It was at Expo West gosh sixplus years ago and I remember
walking up to the booth that shewas working at and my
colleagues were already thereand they were just nerding out
everything that Sarah had to sayand I was like who is this lady
(01:18):
?
So then I joined the party andI realized I was like this woman
is a genius and she's hilarious.
And I was like why woman is agenius and she's hilarious?
And I was like why can't morepeople be like Sarah?
So, sarah, thank you so muchfor being here today.
Sarah Burden (01:32):
What a great intro .
I love it so much.
Thank you.
I do feel like I deliveredutainment right.
We've got the facts, but alsothe razzle dazzle, so thank you
for picking up on that.
Tina Smith (01:45):
It was instantaneous , so and as fellow nerds, we
appreciate the nerd part and weare also, like, fans of the
office and parks and recreation.
So we are here for the fun.
Sarah Burden (01:59):
Excellent, excellent.
We got to have that balance inlife, right.
Amanda Ballard (02:03):
Yep, yeah.
So, sarah, tell us a little bitabout who you are and where
you're at now, and how you gotinto this industry in the first
place.
Sarah Burden (02:12):
Well, wonderful.
Thanks again so much forinviting me to your podcast.
I'm thrilled to be here withyou both.
So I've been working insupplements since 2002, which
feels bonkers to say that somuch of my life has been in this
industry.
But I had been working incosmetics and skincare, working
at department stores, and acouple people I worked with had
(02:34):
started to question some of theingredients in the formulas we
sold at 21, 22,.
Never crossed my mind.
But one day I was selling areally expensive cream to a
customer and she leaned acrossthe counter and she said you
know that it's more about whatyou put into your body than what
you put on your body, right?
And that was a pivotal momentfor me because it had not
(02:55):
occurred to me before that I wasa typical young 20-something
eating garbage food, right, andstaying up late, never hydrating
, no bottles of water ever.
And it was showing up in myskin.
So she said there's a healthfood store down the street.
You should go check it out.
So I wandered into my firsthealth food store mind blown the
(03:17):
grind, your own peanut buttermachine and bottles of herbs I'd
never heard of.
And it just became my newpassion.
So I got the big, famous bulgebook of natural remedies and I
just started reading it all thetime, learning as much as I
could, and I eventually gothired there in that department
(03:38):
and started to be able tointeract with customers, where I
learned so much from thecustomers, from my coworkers,
from the different reps who camearound, and I went to every
training that anyone would letme attend.
I would go off the clock if Ineeded to, just to try to soak
up as much as I could.
So I've been in the naturalproduct industry since then.
Amanda Ballard (04:04):
Awesome.
It's funny.
We talk a lot about howsometimes your best hires are
your customers.
Yes, and so you're definitely atestament to that.
Sarah Burden (04:13):
I was that person, for sure.
I wandered in like a babe inthe woods like what is all this
stuff, and never heard thepronunciation of most of these
herbs.
But I wanted to know.
Tina Smith (04:26):
Well, sarah, I'm so excited for you to tell us more
about your company, because Iwas doing a little background.
Look into what's going on, andit's something I have a passion
for, which is the testing ofthese products.
So tell us everything.
How did it start, what made youget into that business and get
that started, and what do you do?
Sarah Burden (04:48):
Yeah, no great question.
So I think there's a number ofdifferent tracks you can take
when you stay in the industryfor a long time and you learn
more.
Maybe you want to get more intothe storytelling art within the
industry, Maybe you want to getinto the formulation part, and
so I was kind of dabblinglooking at all of these
different areas and I came backto the same place you did, Tina,
(05:09):
that if we can't prove that theproducts are effective, here's
part of it.
We just had our block party.
I've got a great block, we havea wonderful community, and when
I say I work in the naturalproducts industry, I can feel
that thing that happens wherepeople either are afraid I'm
going to try to enlist them in amulti-level marketing scheme or
they think everything we do issnakeern.
(05:31):
And she shared that her mom washaving blood sugar issues and I
said you know, there's somereally good evidence for
cinnamon, something as simple ascinnamon.
(05:51):
This was before Jim Nima waskind of the go-to and she said,
oh, I would really need to seesome research before I'd ever be
willing to recommend that to mymom.
And at the time I thought, gosh, it's got 2000 years of
traditional use in India andAyurvedic medicine, but she
needed research, and so that'sone of those other kind of
pivotal moments of shaping yourworldview right.
(06:12):
Someone in the medicalcommunity is going to need to
see a published human clinicaltrial, randomized, controlled
gold standard clinical trial.
So that's what radical scienceprovides.
So most clinical trials are runthrough organizations that can
either accommodatepharmaceuticals or they'll take
on dietary supplement clinicaltrials as well.
(06:35):
But the format was really builtfor the pharma model that you
can take a small sample size 12to 48 people is sort of the
average for a pharmaceuticaltrial and because of the
drug-like effect of apharmaceutical you can kind of
capture that change in somehealth metric quickly in a small
population.
(06:56):
Dietary supplements don't worklike drugs.
That's the definition.
That's why we can sell themover the counter, and so it does
take a larger population toreally get a good idea.
And because we are all sodifferent in the way that we
respond, they don't have adrug-like effect, they have a
food-like effect, a botanicaleffect, and so Radical created a
platform where dietarysupplement brands or ingredient
(07:20):
suppliers can get human clinicalevidence here in the US from a
diverse group of people toreally find the true effects of
the supplement and during theR&D process, to really finesse a
formula so that it works forthe demographic that you're
looking to target.
Amanda Ballard (07:38):
Wow, that's so fascinating.
Yeah, I love that.
Tina Smith (07:40):
I know, and I think there's so much research that
can be done in this industrythat has yet to be done and some
of the trials that are outthere.
I have a lot of questionsaround what form of this are
they using?
Is it pure?
Because you get varyingfeedback from some of these
(08:02):
trials where you're like I feellike there's more evidence that
is should come our way, thatthis thing will work, and, at
the same time, what are theyusing?
So how do we know that this isthe right thing and the right
formulation?
And so it's nice to hear thatthere's someone with your
background that's getting intothis work to help test, because
(08:24):
we do know that there aredifferent kinds of products on
the market, some that have veryeffective formulations and some
that don't even contain whatthey say are on the bottles.
Sarah Burden (08:35):
Right?
No, it's absolutely true.
And yeah, it was only in 2022that the FTC issued some
clarification on their guidancethat if you, as a supplement
company, are making a bold claimon your product, there needs to
be human clinical research toback that up and it needs to be
on a like population.
I'll never forget this wasprobably close to 10 years ago,
(09:01):
but a good colleague of mine andI, who had done a lot of
trainings across the country, wekept being asked about this
main competitor product thatmade some really bold claims
around inflammation.
And one night at the hotelwe're having dinner, he pulls up
his computer and startsclicking around and really
looking into the research and hewas like Sarah.
The only study showing that ithelps fight inflammation was on
seven obese cats and we, like,laid our heads down on the table
(09:25):
.
Yeah, just imagine, likeGarfield or something right,
because it works for Garfielddoes not mean it's going to work
for my body.
So you're so right, tina, thatthe standard of what counts as
evidence.
It's been a little shoddysometimes within the industry,
so the FTC has sort of tightenedthat guidance like, hey, it
needs to be people.
If you're selling to anAmerican audience, it needs to
(09:46):
be Americans.
Because if a study is done inIndia primarily vegetarian diet,
tons of D3, lots of bodymovement is that going to have
the same effect on the Americanseating a standard American diet
?
It may not.
Maybe it does, but we need tobe able to prove that it does.
Amanda Ballard (10:03):
So if a manufacturer were to go through
the clinical trial phase withradical science, what does that
look like for them?
And then, what do they kind ofget as far as being able to,
like you know, come to find outtheir products?
Fantastic, Um, all of thesegreat things.
(10:23):
How can they then use that intheir marketing material to?
To tell that story.
Sarah Burden (10:28):
That's a great question.
So we feel like all data thatwe can get for you is good data.
And we've had some brilliantbrand partners who have even
shared from the stage at supplyside West when they had a
product that did not beatplacebo in terms of achieving
statistical significance andthey went back and reformulated
and I love that kind oftransparency, right, and I know
(10:50):
that there are major retailerswho also love that kind of
transparency that the brandinvested in science, saw what
the outcome was and then madechanges to bring the most
effective product to themarketplace.
That's going to ensure customersatisfaction, loyalty, trust to
not only that brand but thenall of the retailers who feature
(11:12):
that brand and our industry asa whole.
Then I won't have my neighborsat the barbecue saying that
stuff's a bunch of hogwash.
So we love being able toprovide the data and insights.
Even in a pharmaceutical trial,only about 20% of drugs that
would go through a trial end upachieving statistical
significance against placebo.
So it is an uphill battle toachieve that.
(11:34):
So all data we say is good databecause then you'll know more,
you'll be able to see how yourstuff is really affecting your
customers.
But sometimes we find thingslike hey, maybe overall, maybe
it didn't achieve statisticalsignificance, but for women over
40, this thing was a home run.
Well, now maybe that companycan reposition this formula as a
(11:55):
women over 40 sleep aid orwhatever, right?
So now you have a demographicwho does respond to it, right?
So there are a number of thingsyou can do.
If the product ends up beingsuper successful, then the study
can help substantiate theclaims that you want to make
helps customers get a goodnight's sleep.
We've had brands who share thestatistics on their website 87%
(12:18):
of participants in a humanrandomized controlled trial saw
better sleep quality within sixweeks.
So there are a number ofdifferent claims you can make
with the outcome of your trial.
But you can tinker, you canimprove, you can shift your
demographics, you can get moreROI on your marketing, because
you're going to be just talkingto the people who have the
(12:40):
highest likelihood of reallyfeeling the effect of the
formula.
And if manufacturers, brands,come to us during that R&D phase
, we can really help optimizetheir cost of goods.
We've had a brand partner whocame pre-market to us and tested
their formulation at 25milligrams, 50 milligrams, 75
milligrams.
(13:00):
They were all effective, butwith the same degree of efficacy
.
Well, you can just manufacturethe 25 milligram because
everyone felt the same.
So there are a lot of optionsof how brands and ingredient
manufacturers can utilize thedata, which turn into more
credibility for retailers, moresatisfaction for the end
(13:20):
consumer.
Tina Smith (13:22):
So here's a thing that I'm really interested in,
because you're talking abouthelps with sleep over age 40 or
45 for women, what Deshae isalways on everyone's minds.
So what are the things that youcan do with clinical trials and
the data that you get, and whatare some things that maybe you
cannot do still, yeah, that's agreat question, and this year in
(13:45):
October will be the 30thanniversary of the Deshaies Act
passing.
Sarah Burden (13:49):
I just got to be in Salt Lake City for the
Deshaies Summit celebrating 30years and get to hear from folks
who are in the room you knowwhen that was enacted and the
hard work that went into placein order to keep the industry
safe no-transcript healthcondition, and so this is one of
(14:39):
the reasons I wanted to comework at Radical.
Two of the brands I'd worked forin the past invested in
clinical research.
So, like stage one is, I wantmore brands to invest in
clinical research, but asteriskclinical research that's being
guided by people who understandDeshaies, understand the
regulatory landscape of thedietary supplement industry,
because especially one brand Iworked for did not understand
(15:03):
regulations, did not understandDeshaies spent a huge amount of
money on a study to prove thatthe product could have an effect
on cholesterol, not realizingthey were not going to be able
to say this lowers cholesterol,even if they proved it.
So that was unfortunately not agreat spend.
So I think if a brand isthinking about clinical research
(15:25):
, partner with a platform, withan organization who is focused
on the dietary supplement space,so that you don't accidentally
blow five years worth ofresearch funds on something that
you can never share externally.
Right, it was such aheartbreaker to see.
So when I saw Radical's modelit was almost like if you take a
kid bumper bowling like, you'renot going to accidentally wind
(15:45):
up with a non-compliant claimhere.
Tina Smith (15:47):
We're not going to accidentally wind up with a
non-compliant claim here.
Yes, that sounds like huge.
Amanda Ballard (15:51):
Yeah, such a needed service.
Yeah, we think yeah, very, verycool.
So I'm curious, just because Ilike to know these types of
things what are some of thethings behind the scenes that
happen in a clinical trial thatmaybe people don't know about?
Sarah Burden (16:15):
Oh, it's a good question.
So one thing that is trickierthan anyone ever expects is
getting your placebomanufactured.
So especially so many brandswork with co-manufacturers.
They have their scheduleplanned so far in advance and
then you need to run 500 bottlesof a placebo.
That can be tricky.
So starting the process earlierthan you think is a really good
idea.
If you think you're going towant to pursue clinical research
(16:37):
because you have to getscheduled into the line, it's
not a moneymaker for theco-manufacturer, so you're going
to get relegated to the verylast possible moment.
So kind of building that intothe schedule and just the kind
of cleverness and creativitythat needs to go into sometimes
building a placebo.
What if I have a client whomakes a greens powder?
(16:59):
What's the placebo going to be?
It can't be anything botanicalbecause it has to have no effect
, right?
So there's no herb or greenthat I can give them.
It's going to have zero effect.
So we're going to have noeffect, right?
So there's no herb or greenthat I can give them, that's
going to have zero effect.
So we're going to have to getkind of crafty with that.
If it's a tincture, same kindof thing, right, it has to match
and be undetectably differentfrom the active.
(17:21):
So I think that's one of thekind of interesting light bulb
moments that most people havewhen they start thinking about a
true gold standard clinicaltrial versus an open label
consumer impression study.
So a consumer impression studycan be great for market research
, but it can't substantiate aclaim because there's no control
against something that looksidentical so that we can account
(17:42):
statistically for that placeboeffect, which in our industry is
really strong.
Tina Smith (17:48):
Yeah, well, this is amazing and I it makes me think
of I've been reading this book,how not to age by Dr Greger.
Yeah, at the very beginning hetalks about how many of the
supplements don't have what theysay are in the supplement.
So, tell us a little bit moreabout how can just a consumer
(18:09):
know that they're getting whatthey think they're getting?
What should they be looking forand what kind of certifications
should they see?
Or what are the labelingpractices that have to be done
that do protect the consumer?
Sarah Burden (18:23):
Yeah Well, I heard a piece of advice a couple
years back, during the height ofthe pandemic, when we're all
trying to figure out what wecould possibly take for our
immune system and trying to dothings remotely, and someone
told me don't put anything onyour body or into your body that
you bought from Amazon, which Ithought was pretty startling
advice to hear.
But then, more as more and moretrickles out and we've got
(18:45):
industry leaders like Now Foodswho will do a big sweep and
order a bunch of things onlinefrom Amazon and then test it and
it doesn't turn out to beauthentic.
It doesn't have the recommendedlabel amount or the declared
label amount.
So I think that's one thingthat unfortunately, there is a
lot of counterfeiting thathappens and it's in the most
(19:07):
popular categories, right?
So if you're Googling orsearching turmeric creatine, the
most popular supplementingredients are the ones that
are getting counterfeited.
So working with a brand or aretailer who you trust and who
has established credibility, Ithink is a great place to start
(19:28):
I look for personally as ashopper, I look for CGMP status
of the manufacturer to make surethat they're following those
standard good manufacturingprocesses.
Nsf certification is certainlya great third party that I like
to see on the supplements Iconsume and that I give to my
family too.
So I think some of those thirdparty certifications are really
(19:50):
smart to have and I think also,just as consumers, we always
want to keep, you know, ourlittle spidey sense going that
if this deal seems too good tobe true, right, if this
supplement is a fraction of thecost of all the rest of the pack
.
You know, when it comes topricing on this supplement, I
have to ask myself why.
Tina Smith (20:17):
Yeah, 100%, and it just makes me think the reason
that you're calling these thingsout and scrape for them to be
on the label and I know that itcosts some of the manufacturers
more money to make sure thatthey're certified or that
they've got some othertransparency happening and that
they're acting in good faith andthat they are actually
producing the product thatthey're saying they are
(20:37):
producing and doing things likethat protects the consumer and
protects them as a manufacturer.
So I love seeing these practicesput into place and we know that
there are bad actors that areout there and unfortunately, it
feels like a tax.
You know that we have to do allof these things and do
(20:58):
disclosures and havecertifications and at the same
time, it's nice to hear and Ithink that we should be the ones
that are trumpeting this onbehalf of these manufacturers
and telling people this is whoyou can trust, because there are
people that are out thereYou're right making counterfeit
substances on Amazon, and we arenot in favor of consumers
(21:24):
wasting money on somethingthat's not going to have
efficacy, and so that's why wewant to be the champions of the
manufacturers who are gettingthis right.
And there are some lovelymanufacturers who are very
transparent, honest, do theresearch, have things tested and
they make sure that what theyclaim on their label is what's
in that product.
Sarah Burden (21:43):
Absolutely Part of the Dachet Summit.
I was just at involved thecurrent leader of the Office of
Dietary Supplements from the FDAspeaking on the panel.
I always think she's brave forshowing up because there's going
to be grumbles in the audiencefull of folks working in the
dietary supplement industryright about some of the
decisions or the way that thingsget run.
(22:03):
So I always respect her forshowing up at these events.
But it's clear just frompatterns over the years that
office is really underfunded.
They don't have the amount ofresources or staff to be
investigating as manymanufacturers as there are now.
The size of that office hasn'tkept up with the growth of our
industry and so there are tradeassociations within the natural
(22:25):
products industry CRN comes tomind that really do advocate for
that sort of self-policing.
You know, like how, how can weput some best practices into
place, that a standard we canall rise to, and then the FDA
can say oh, check, look, they'redoing.
They're doing all of thesethings that we would like to see
.
Amanda Ballard (22:43):
Yeah.
So, sarah, if, if anyone wantedto learn more about radical
science how to go through, youknow, a clinical trial for
themselves and their brand howcould they do that and ways that
they could get in touch?
Sarah Burden (22:58):
Yeah, anyone can reach out to us through the
radical science website, andwe're radical spelled CLE
instead ofL.
The radical is the first rootof a plant that grows
underground.
So we feel like we're breakingnew ground with our model.
We're kind of doing things in aradical way, but with that
organic growth happening in anew territory, so they can reach
(23:20):
out to us to find out more.
Clinical trials are what we do,but because of our unique model
our completely virtual model weactually are able to gather
quite a bit of market researchfor brands as well.
So, in addition to the datathat will help substantiate
claims, we gather a lot of datathat people go elsewhere for for
(23:40):
consumer research, and sothat's all built into our trial
model trial models.
So folks in marketing teams,salespeople, r&d folks all
really benefit from the kinds ofdata that we're able to
generate around an ingredient, aformulation in your innovation
pipeline or an establishedlegacy product.
Tina Smith (24:00):
Tell me a little bit more about these market
research pieces.
How do you get started withthat?
What are you learning?
Who are you asking Like, howdoes that work?
Sarah Burden (24:11):
Yeah, so the participants who agree to be a
part of a radical trial.
We have 500 participants perstudy every time, so 250 will
receive the active product, 250receive the placebo.
We also can offer multi-armstudies.
So we have sometimes a thousandfolks in a study.
I think we've got one in thequeue that's going to have 2000
people in the study.
(24:32):
So that's a ton of data thatwe'll be able to generate
through six weeks of interactingwith all those participants.
Some of the questions thatthey're getting specifically
deal with whatever kind of studythat they're in.
If it's a sleep product, right,they're getting questions all
throughout about how many hoursdid you sleep last night, over
the last week, would you say,the quality of your sleep
(24:53):
improved, declined, right?
So they're reporting back ontheir feelings, their fatigue,
their energy levels, theircognition, and so we're
collecting all that data to helpwith the outcome of the study.
But, in addition, if a brand,say, delivers their supplement
by a sachet, like a stick packsachet, and maybe this is in the
(25:15):
innovation pipeline, this isstill in the R&D phase Well,
we're collecting all that dataabout the health outcomes.
But we could also be askingquestions like how easily did
this dissolve in your liquid?
Did you use hot or cold water?
Did you like the flavor?
Would you have liked it?
An easier tear stick pack,right?
So we can be collecting allkinds of that real-time data as
well, and that's incrediblyvaluable, as you can imagine, to
(25:37):
anyone developing a product.
You don't want to get it allthe way rolled out and find out
everyone hates the mode ofdelivery, or no one likes the
flavor, except for the threepeople who were on your R&D team
delivery, or no one likes theflavor except for the three
people who were on your R&D team, right.
We've all been at brands thathave seen that happen over time,
so it's a great way to kind ofavoid those kinds of lost
financial gains.
Tina Smith (25:59):
Yeah, and you know, there's something that we talk
about a lot in marketing isusing the words of your
customers.
They feel like you're readingtheir minds.
So it sounds like, especiallyif it's open-ended questions,
that they're giving you a lot ofkeywords really that people
like them would use.
So if they're a fan of theproduct, in the end and you use
(26:20):
those same words to attractother people, it will attract
other people like them.
Yeah, so that sounds great.
That sounds like a reallyamazing report If you could have
all the details behind it.
And then, man, I bet you'd alsoknow what people would search
online to find the product anddifferent language that you
(26:42):
could use to talk about thebenefits or why it's different
than another product.
Sarah Burden (26:47):
And it's my hope that eventually we'll be able to
capture user-generated video,maybe all through the process
right, we're not there yet butto be able to do that for folks
who are participating in thetrial, so that over the six
weeks we're collecting that dataand then at the end, what they
think about it, once they'reunblinded, and find out you know
what kinds of ingredients theywere taking.
(27:08):
So we do make it possible forbrands too, if and participants
are open to it, at the end ofthe trial to receive brand
marketing so that they and a lotof times they are clamoring to
find out like this really helpedme with my sleep, what was I
taking, you know.
So we give permission, if theparticipant agrees, for the
brand to reach out to them andsay surprise, you were taking
(27:30):
this right and now you have araving fan.
That's very cool.
Tina Smith (27:35):
Yeah, you know what else this makes me think, though
.
I'm like hey, how do I get onthat list, so I can try new
products?
Sarah Burden (27:42):
You can do that at radicalsciencecom as well, so
you can reach out in a kind ofsales capacity If you're
thinking you're a company, brandor retail and you'd like to
learn more about how you couldwork with us, and if you're
interested in being aparticipant in the trial, the
trials that are activelyrecruiting are listed and you
can click and be added.
So that's one of the otherthings.
Amanda, when you asked what aresome things behind the scenes
(28:04):
that people might not expect,the screening process is one
that I think not everyone thinksabout, because if you're taking
any medications that wouldpotentially have
contraindications, safety thingslike that we have a primary
investigator, dr Emily Pauly,who works for Radical Science,
and she is meticulous.
Nothing is more important toher than the protection of the
(28:27):
participants' health andidentity protection in terms of
anonymity throughout the study,but then also protecting their
health data at the end.
She is so scrupulous about that, so we feel really lucky to
have her on board Very cool.
Tina Smith (28:44):
Yeah, that's very interesting.
It sounds like a good pairingthat dovetails right into what
you guys are doing over there.
So the testing is that arequirement that they have to
have?
They have to show that what'sin their product is in what they
say is in their product isactually there, sorry as well,
(29:17):
wherever that's beenmanufactured.
Sarah Burden (29:18):
And then we quarantine everything product
and placebo and do a second runof all of those QA QC steps with
a third party lab that wecontract with, just because the
health and safety of all of ourparticipants is our primary, you
know, objective.
So we do that second run aswell.
Tina Smith (29:34):
Amazing.
Yeah, all right.
Well, I'm definitely going tothe website because I to see,
like, what trials are out thereand one of the reasons why, of
course, I'm going to sign up andbe like can I participate?
But one of the things I thinkeveryone could do is go look and
it'll give you some idea of newproducts that might be coming
to your area soon.
(29:55):
So some of our retailers mightget some ideas around what might
be popular that's coming in thedoor and what maybe they can
get before other places couldget them.
Sarah Burden (30:08):
That's a great idea.
Yeah, I love when I'm at ExpoWest Supply Side West I know
what's kind of coming around thebend in terms of industry
trends and especially on thesupplier side.
I start thinking like, oh, I'mgoing to start seeing some of
these kinds of formulas comeonto the marketplace soon, so I
think that's a great strategy.
Amanda Ballard (30:27):
Well, thank you so much for spending some time
with us today, Sarah.
You've been a just absolutepleasure to speak with and super
excited to see just all of thesuccess that you've had
throughout your years in theindustry and look forward to
just seeing what's next withSarah.
It's always something excitingand you're just great everywhere
(30:50):
you go.
So thank you again for spendingtime with us.
Sarah Burden (30:53):
Oh, I appreciate that, amanda, thank you so much.
It was a pleasure to be herewith you both.
It was a great conversation.
Thanks for having me.
Tina Smith (30:59):
Yeah, it was great to meet you.
I'm excited about getting tosee you at the shows in the
future.
Amanda Ballard (31:04):
Yeah, thanks so much for listening to the
Natural Products MarketerPodcast.
We hope you found this episodeto be super helpful.
Make sure you check out theshow notes for any of those
valuable resources that wementioned on today's episode.
Tina Smith (31:17):
And, before you go, we would love for you to give us
a review.
Follow, like and subscribe onApple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube
or wherever you're listeningtoday, and make sure you join us
for our next episode, where wegive you more marketing tips so
that you can reach more peopleand change more lives.
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