Harnessing Power as an Independent Natural Retailer

Discover the secrets to thriving in the natural products industry with our special guests, Micah Corrigan and Chase Ballard. Dive into Micah's unique journey that began in the health food retail scene of Hawaii and led to his entrepreneurship in Wisconsin with Great Naturally Electrolytes. Meanwhile, Chase shares his inspiring transformation from an unhealthy lifestyle to a wellness-focused career, highlighting the ethical retail practices he embraced at Nutrition World. Together, we uncover the strategies that independent health food stores can use to specialize and succeed, while maintaining their core principles and ethical standards.

Explore innovative ways to build meaningful connections in your wellness-focused store. Learn how passionate staff and genuine customer care can turn your store into a trusted community hub. We discuss the art of balancing legacy and emerging brands, navigating the challenges of brand loyalty, and effectively transitioning product lineups. Micah and Chase share insights into how independent retailers can serve as influential community leaders, maintaining customer trust even amidst changes.

We delve into the critical process of evaluating brand partnerships, offering tips on using resources like Be Well Verified to ensure alignment with your business goals. Understand the importance of maintaining a strong brand reputation despite the e-commerce dominance. From pricing strategies to marketing tips, this episode is packed with advice to help your natural products business reach new heights. Whether you're a seasoned retailer or just starting, our discussion promises actionable insights to enhance your approach and impact your community positively.

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About Amanda Ballard

Amanda has worked in natural products marketing in the retail setting since 2016 and has a great understanding of the unique challenges and opportunities that retailers in this industry face. More than anything, she wants this industry to continue to boom and believes much of that success hinges on the ability of retailers to do well in their businesses and market their products effectively.

About Tina Smith

Since 2014, Tina has worked with multiple natural products businesses, discovering how to market their CBD products online, without having their payment processor shut them down, to letting customers talk about their health issues those products have helped them solve. She knows first hand how experts like you offer the best products and a superior customer experience, that is why she is committed to helping you find an easy way to grow your natural product business.

Episode Transcript

Micah Corrigan (00:00):
You know, when we're, when we're bringing in
new brands, the first questionthat I ask is what's the map?
The second question that I askis what's the quality?
And some people might thinkthat that should be reversed.
But if I'm selling the mostmiracle of miracle products and
you know people can get it $30,$40, $50 cheaper on Amazon I'm

(00:20):
not going to sell it.

Tina Smith (00:25):
Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer
Podcast.
I'm Tina.

Amanda Ballard (00:29):
And I'm Amanda and we're here to make marketing
easier for natural productsbusinesses so you can reach more
people and change more lives.
Hey guys, welcome back to theNatural Products Marketer
Podcast.
We are so excited to have twoawesome retailers with us today
Micah Corrigan and Chase Ballard.

(00:50):
Welcome to the show, guys.
Thanks for having me.
So we always like to start offwith asking how you got into the
industry, because most peopledon't grow up thinking this is
what I want to do with my life,but maybe you're different.
So, Micah, we'll start with you.

Micah Corrigan (01:08):
Yeah, so I started in Hawaii.
So my parents had a health foodstore in Kailua, Hawaii, and we
were there for well.
My parents were there for like18 years.
I was there for about six orseven.
We moved to Wisconsin.
I never forgave them.
I was there for about six orseven.
We moved to Wisconsin.
I never forgave them.
I'm just kidding.
But then we moved to Wisconsin.

(01:29):
We had the health food storethere.
I've been in it basically mywhole life and from there in
2020, I started a brand calledGreat Naturally Electrolytes and
then I've been involved in theindustry.
Recently I'm on the board forthe Positively Natural show.
I'm also involved with SaveNaturally, which is a

(01:50):
frictionless coupon platform,and then we're also starting a
Be Well Verified program as well, which we can get more into
later.
But yeah, I love this industry,I love the people in this
industry, and anything that Ican do to promote this industry
is is is my passion.

Amanda Ballard (02:07):
So you're not busy at all.

Micah Corrigan (02:09):
No, no, I have tons of free time.

Amanda Ballard (02:13):
Chase, how about you?

Chase Ballard (02:16):
Um, I got started in the industry when I was 21
or so.
Um, I was very unhealthy uh,unhealthy, the exact opposite of
the picture of wellness and oneof my family members, they got
really sick and it kind of wokeme up to start thinking about
health.
And so I started at GNC downthe road because my best friend

(02:39):
worked down there and, um, gncwas, uh, yeah, quite an
experience.
Um, it learned me to be, ittaught me to be ethical and to
sell good stuff and not crap.
And um, that led me on ajourney to find um nutrition
world in Chattanooga, tennessee,where I joined with Ed there

(03:02):
and it's been about seven, eightyears and then then moved down
to Florida to work here atDetweiler's and I've been in the
industry I guess a total of15-ish years now, maybe more.

Amanda Ballard (03:13):
Great.
Well, I know that both of youare super passionate about this
industry and seeing retailersnot only survive but thrive, and
I know you guys are doing thatin the businesses that you guys
run.
So what are the things thatyou've done in your retail
businesses in order to succeed,and what are some things that

(03:33):
other retailers need to do andpivot to also be successful?
Chase?

Chase Ballard (03:40):
Oh Lord, yeah, I mean, the biggest thing I would
say that retailers need to do isthey just need to need to
reestablish themselves as theowner of their business.
I think that's what I've beensuccessful doing, even though
I've never technically owned anyof the stores I've worked for.
I've always been just, you know, a debt while I'm the director

(04:01):
of wellness.
So I kind of get to run and I'mthe product owner of wellness,
if you will.
But you know, at NutritionWorld I was the general manager.
But I think the big thing is alot of retailers let outside
forces control and dictate theirhow they run their business and
they don't ask how they want torun their business or what

(04:23):
their goals are and set out toachieve those.
They let too many circumstancesdo that.
And that's where I really foundthat you know, if you do the
core principles right, byestablishing yourself as the
health authority in your townand staying true to your
passions, you really can dictatehow, how and what you want to

(04:44):
do and who you want to be.
And I see a lot of retailerskind of have shied away from
that for whatever reason.
So I'd say that's.
I don't know if that exactlyanswers the questions, but
that's one thing we've done, orI've helped us do, really well.
We stand firm on our standardsand our expectations of ethics
and morals and have been able todo some things in industry due

(05:05):
to that as well, by standing upand saying this isn't the way it
needs to be done, and yeah, I'dsay.
I guess the answer to thequestion simply is we've had a
backbone.

Amanda Ballard (05:17):
What would you add to that, Micah?

Micah Corrigan (05:19):
Yeah, I would say I would say specialize.
So you know, I see.
So, for example, you know, Imean I see there's like a
different spectrum of retailersright there's, you know, food,
drug mass, you know, which isall the way on like one side of
the retail spectrum.
And then there's, you know,doctor's offices, naturopathic

(05:41):
doctors, holistic practitioners,you know, on the other side of
the spectrum and you know, Ithink that it's even like the
large natural chains that we'reseeing they are kind of also
moving towards more of the massmarket side of things, where you
know they're carrying a lot ofmore conventional grocery

(06:03):
products and in the independenthealth food channel.
I think that's also kind oflike a hybrid, kind of in the
middle, and I think that if theycould specialize more, I think
that's going to be a win forthem down the road.
You know I see products being,you know I mean customers can
get products, you know,basically anywhere now, and so I

(06:32):
think if a store is trying tobe everything, it's going to be
extremely difficult for thatstore.
So I would say dig your heelsin and specialize as much as you
can so that you know, comesdown to the products.
So one of the that I say to ourteam always is that we're
looking for unique boutique andtherapeutic products, just as an
example.

(06:53):
We're not looking for productsthat can be found everywhere.
I think customers, when theycome into our stores, they want
to have that unique cutting edge, the newest products, the best
products.
But if it's just a genericcommodity product that they can

(07:14):
buy at Walmart or Target,there's not that specialty
feeling anymore.
So that's where I wouldspecialize in and then also
including services would that'swhere I would specialize in and
then also like includingservices.
So, like, if you could includeconsulting work or or blood work
or, um, you know, differenttypes of, like testing services,
I would include that as well.
Um, and then you know, try, try, adaptive marketing.

(07:37):
Uh, there's tons of differentmarketing um styles out there,
save, naturally would be wouldbe one of the things that a
retailer could incorporate.
But I think just tryingdifferent things out and trying
them at a faster rate and seeingwhat works and just being open
to new ideas.

Tina Smith (07:58):
I love hearing about all of that, Micah, and I've
got so many questions for bothof you actually.
But if you're includingservices in your business, is
there any sort of benchmark thatmakes sense for people Like
this?
Percentage of your revenueshould go to services like blood
work, consultations, anythinglike that.

Micah Corrigan (08:22):
I mean I would, I mean I would say that a lot of
retailers aren't doing it.
So I would just try, you know,starting just with one thing,
and if you can't do it or if youdon't have someone on staff, I
would try partnering with a yourlocal dietician in the area or
a local nutritionist or a localnaturopath in your area and then

(08:43):
, just you know, try to partnerwith them and provide those
services.
Because that's I mean, we havecustomers coming in and you know
they're looking for naturalproduct minded medical doctors,
they're looking foracupuncturists, they're looking
for a good chiropractorrecommendation.
So you know customers arelooking for, you know they're

(09:06):
searching for these answers.
And I think if you can just bemore integrated in your
community with other servicesthat are in there, I think
that's going to be a goodlong-term strategy.
But it's also going to set youapart, because Walmart's not
doing that, target's not doingthat, walgreens isn't doing that
.
So you want to provide as muchvalue to the customer as you
possibly can.

Tina Smith (09:27):
Yeah, I like this referral approach, this
practitioners inviting them intoyour shop, because I do think
that we talk a lot about peoplebecoming the health advocates
and health consultants for thepeople in their community and
there's no better way to do thatthan to be like, oh, you need

(09:48):
this person, I know exactly whoyou need to talk to and being
able to point them in the rightdirection.
Any ideas other than you Googlethem on finding those people
and how you sort of evaluatewhether or not they're a fit for
you in your store people andhow you sort of evaluate whether
or not they're a fit for you inyour store.

Micah Corrigan (10:08):
I mean, I mean a lot of times, I mean the
connections that we have.
They, you know, have beencustomers.
You know they're already inthat, in that kind of mindset.
So those are, I mean those arethe people that you know we're
looking for.
I mean they're already, youknow we're already connected
with them.
I would you know, I that youknow we're looking for, I mean
they're already, you know we'realready connected with them.

(10:29):
I would you know, I would youknow, if you're in the store
level and you don't have thosecurrent connections, I would try
.
You know, I don't know, makinga sign, sending out a newsletter
.
You know something like that.
You know looking, you knowlooking for a partnership like
that.
That's, that's just one idea.
Looking for a partnership likethat.

Chase Ballard (10:46):
That's, that's just one idea.
One thing you can do I thinkthat Nutrition World was doing
is it was really good as theyput together a gift basket, or
even ask your vendors for giftbaskets and take them.
Take those around topractitioners and kind of have a
personal letter in there andtalk to them about what you do,
and you'll usually gatherfeedback that way also.

Tina Smith (11:07):
Yeah, you know.
Just another tactic that we'veused before or made the
recommendation around, doingthat is and Micah, you kind of
hinted at this like some ofthose practitioners are already
coming into your store, which isgreat, but you also just have
customers who use people likethat.
So I love the idea of puttingthe sign up, because you can get
your own customers telling youno, this is the best

(11:29):
chiropractor, or I believe inthis person to do holistic
medicine, because they don'talways give me a prescription
and they help me understand whatI need from your store.
So I think just asking yourcustomers who they use or, hey,
submit your favorite, you knowthat's always a good tactic as
well.

Amanda Ballard (11:51):
Yeah, and I'd be interested to ask Chase,
because you know, if anyoneisn't familiar with Detweiler's
they're a farmer's market with awellness department.
Versus Micah's store, it's moreof a supplement store.
They have some food and I wouldsay that the vast majority of
our listeners do kind of fallinto this.
70 plus percent are supplements, but for those that aren't, I'm

(12:15):
curious how do you have thisconsultative approach in a store
that's more grocery centric,where people feel like, oh, this
still makes sense for me to getmy health and wellness advice
from a store that's more grocerycentric, where people feel like
, oh, this still makes sense forme to get my health and
wellness advice from a storethat's not just a pill shop, so
to speak?

Chase Ballard (12:33):
Yeah, it's tough because our store, each store,
each of our four stores, hasabout 3000 to 5000 customers a
day.
So it's you can't have, youknow, those long conversations
with every customer.
Now, we still make it apriority.
We keep the floor staffed asbest we can, but we kind of have

(12:55):
what we term is like a healthfood store express.
So you know, in a typicalhealth food store a conversation
may be five to 15 to 20 minutes.
Well, we try and shave those 20minute ones down into the eight
minute range.
And the biggest thing it reallyis just coming down to finding
and hiring passionate staff thatum, care about people.

(13:18):
I mean literally, I don't evenwe don't even really look for
much supplement knowledge whenit comes to people.
We can teach supplementknowledge, but we need people
that are care about people andthat are good at talking to
people.
That's kind of the main thingwe look for in our our staff.
If you have supplementknowledge, that's great, but
really it's about just lovingpeople and wanting to help

(13:39):
people.
But finding those people andthen just letting them do some
quick little nuggets is what wecall them Basically.
We just thought we're passingon health nuggets.
We're not going to be sittinghere going through a whole big
spill with people.
But we always want to keep youknow if someone's coming in for
something.
Hey, what are you taking thatfor?

(13:59):
What else are you alreadytaking?
What else are you alreadytaking?
So we try and ask those probingquestions so we can see what
else they're taking and thenhelp them find what also could
work well with them and kind ofopen that door to where they
start trusting us and give usmore information.
And then the nice thing is we'remore of a grocery store.
It's a typical health foodstore.
You see your customer onceevery four to six weeks.

(14:22):
If you're lucky, you knowsometimes they don't come back
until you know every 90 days orso.
If they buy in bulk At agrocery store, we get to see
them every week.
So it's kind of a luxury thereis.
We can kind of check in eachweek.
Hey, how are you doing?
Is that working for you, is itnot?
Do we need to bring it back?
Do we need to switch it out?
So we kind of use.
We have some weaknesses becausewe can't spend that much time,

(14:45):
because due to the volume ofcustomers, but it is nice that
we actually get to see them morefrequently because we're kind
of a neighborhood destinationfor them.
So it's kind of a.
It's a give and take, but itworks out.

Tina Smith (15:00):
You know, chase, you said something earlier when
Amanda was talking about whatare some ways you've been
successful, and I can't justleave it on the table.
I'm sure people are like, wait,we want to hear more about this
, but you said we have abackbone.
If I were to sum it up, it'sthat we have a backbone, and so
I would love to hear more ofthat, because it sort of weaves

(15:22):
into what Micah was saying aboutbeing a specialty store with
the unique boutique andtherapeutic items.
So I would love for you to saymore about having a backbone.
What has that looked like?
And then what do you do as aresult of figuring out hey,

(15:43):
we're not going to stand for X,y or Z.

Chase Ballard (15:47):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's well.
Basically, what we had done is,you know, we me and Ed were
very pivotal and others itwasn't just us, but we were very
pivotal in the map, mapcompliance, I guess, or whatever
.
But we basically said that ifyou don't have a map, if your

(16:08):
company as the vendor, doesn'thave a map policy that's
enforced, then you're not cominginto our stores.
And at this time it was 2016,2017, and map was very hit or
miss.
I'd say probably 30% of thebrands out there the main big
brands had a reliable map and70% were considering it or not

(16:32):
sure if they were going to.
And it was a very scary time inthe industry because Amazon was
just destroying our pricing inthe stores and it was very
concerning.
So we kind of came out thereand said, hey, here's our map
policy.
Basically, we sent out theseletters to all these companies
saying here's our map policy.
If you don't have a map that'senforced at 30 percent or better

(16:54):
or you know, or less whatever,then you're not allowed in our
stores.
And then we gave them adeadline and a deadline.
And I actually remember sittingdown with one of the biggest
manufacturers they, it was theirlike regional rep.
I told him what we were doing.
I said, hey, you have, you know, six weeks to get your map in

(17:15):
line and if not, we're cuttingyou.
And he laughed.
I was like we're the number onebrand in the industry, you
can't cut us.
We're like, well, okay.
And then, okay, and you know,the deadline came and we, we uh,
sent them a credit for I thinkit was like seven thousand
dollars or something, all of ourstock, um, or it was at least
70 of our stock, because webasically went through the

(17:37):
entire night.
I still remember it um vividlybecause it was a nightmare.
We went through and we pulledoff every product that didn't
have a map policy and put themin baskets and put them in the
back and basically did a creditmemo and sent them to the
companies.
And not a week later I don'tknow if it wasn't the CEO, but
it was one of the national salesrep flew down from that company

(18:00):
and I think a month later wewere flying up to their company
to meet with the CEO and stufflike that, to talk about map
policy.
So we were just a store, I meana very successful store.
I mean, you know, we weredefinitely.
We were definitely a good storebut just a single store.
That kind of prodded thismovement, if you will, because

(18:21):
we started with Soho.
Actually, I think I have one ofthe books there's very
remaining but uh, yeah, I havelike three left.
But uh, with soho we did alittle book thing.
It's like it was kind of apanic thing that amanda actually
wrote because, lord knows, Iwould not be able to do this I'm
just a writer.
but uh, yeah, I just I remembersitting down and she recorded me

(18:43):
talking and blabbing.
But anyways, we, uh, yeah, wehad we went with soho doing road
shows and, um, we neededsomething to hand out to people
because it was a lot ofinformation.
And then we did that um andthat little book kind of
circulated around the industryreal quick and a lot of people
um latched on to some of theideas in it and a lot of, I

(19:03):
think it it spooked a lot ofvendors, or actually didn't
spook them and woke them up.
I think to see, this isactually a serious issue and we
need to decide where we want tobe.
Do we want to support theindependence or do we want to
support the just be in this racewith Amazon and all these other
counterfeit brands?
And so a lot of good brandsjoined the independent, the

(19:29):
independent channel, I think, orpartnered with it, and I don't
think brands get enough creditfor that because they're.
That was a tough decision for anumber of brands.
I know a lot of brands thattalked to us that said they had
to cut, you know, two milliondollars in POs because those
weren't, they were not mapcompliant, and you know a lot of
brands don't get the credit forkind of ponying up and saying,

(19:52):
hey, no, we're not going tostand for this.
And I think I'm very passionateabout helping retailers improve
, because I think the ball isnow in the retailer's court,
because I think the brands, atleast during that time frame,

(20:14):
said, hey, we're committed tothis industry.
Now it's on us to show them whythey should stay committed.
Now, recently, we have someissues with mass market and kind
of blending the line betweenmass market and and, and
honestly, I think we start wehave to be careful not to point
fingers at the brands again andsay, hey, why are you doing this

(20:34):
?
I think we always have to stepback and ask why are they doing
this?
Why are they thinking aboutthis?
And yeah, there's greedinvolved in some things, but
some of these brands are justworried about survivability and,
honestly, in my opinion, theindependent channel is not
healthy and that's why I'mpassionate about helping it get
healthy and that's I love whatyou guys are doing at Natural

(20:56):
Products.
Marketer is trying to helpretailers and brands, but this
channel has to stay healthy.
Guys are doing at naturalproducts.
Marketer is trying to helpretailers and brands, but this,
this channel has to stay healthy, otherwise we can't blame these
brands for considering goinginto mass market, because they
have to make money too, and so,yeah, I think there's.
I'm not saying it's completelyokay, and you know, trust me,
I'm I.
I give them a very hard timewhenever I see stuff in mass

(21:18):
market, but I try to understandtheir, their situation as well.

Amanda Ballard (21:22):
So yeah, yeah, and I'd love to hear Micah's
perspective on this, because Iknow you have a similar
philosophy with, you know, mappricing and all of that.
But also, as someone who's youknow, recently started a
manufacturing company and stillhaving the retail store, like,
what are you seeing from bothsides of the coin?

(21:44):
Now, you know, what canretailers be doing to support
these brands that are, you know,trying to stay dedicated to the
independent channel in spite ofits flaws?
But then also, you know, do weblame manufacturers that have
gone a little bit more mass?

(22:04):
Like is what's the appeal?
Why do you think that theywould do something like that?

Micah Corrigan (22:10):
Well, I mean, I think.
I mean, I think the reason whybrands are kind of leaving the
channel is just because they'regoing out of business.
They're following the money.
I mean that's, you know what'shappening?
Um, so they are.
They're already saturated inall of the health food stores.
Um, but health food storesaren't growing at like an

(22:31):
exponential rate.
What is growing is emergingmarkets.
Um, a lot of, like e-tailersare growing.
The mass market channel isgrowing, especially as consumers
are becoming more and moreaware of natural products.
A lot of these mass marketretailers, you know, want to
capitalize on that, bring thosebrands in and, you know, sell
them to their customers.

(22:51):
I mean, that's essentiallywhat's going on.
Is they're just following themoney?
I mean, that's where the growthis.
So it's very hard to kind ofblame them, because that's where
the growth is and there's no.
So, however, a lot of thesebrands are, you know, they've
already won their legacy brands.
They're saturated in everysingle health food store and so

(23:14):
now they're deciding where to goto, which is an important
decision that they have to make.
How fast are they going toexpand?
What markets are they going toexpand to?
These are all questions thatthey have to figure out.
I have seen it, I think we'veall seen it, when many brands
try to go into some of theselarge mass markets and it

(23:34):
doesn't end well.
And that's because in my, in myopinion, the, the health food
stores, that's where, that'swhere the growth engine is, that
is where innovation starts,that's where education is,
that's where specialty is.
I think what we're seeing is alot of new brands coming onto

(24:02):
the market and they're seeingthis outflux of of legacy brands
going into mass markets.
And this is kind of where I'mcoming in and I'm perfectly.
I want to partner with theretail stores.
I want to partner with theindependent channel as a brand.
I think many new brands comingout, many innovative brands, are

(24:23):
also seeing that and they'rehappy to partner with the, with
the independent retailers.
So every single time a here'sanother, here's kind of another
flip side of that too Everysingle time a brand is on a
retail shelf, that is a form ofadvertisement and it's a little

(24:44):
tiny billboard for your brand,for your product on the shelf.
And I think you know, I think alot of brands know that, but
many brands maybe don't publiclyvalue it as much.
And so every single time youknow you're on the shelf or on
an independent shelf.
That is an opportunity for youknow the um, the retail

(25:04):
associate to you know, explainabout the brand, explain about
the product, um, and it leavesan open conversation for you
know what other products thebrand carries.
I mean, that's where, that'swhere the marketing is, that's
where the education is, that'sthe marketing is, that's where
the education is.
And so when brands leave thatand they go full on food, drug

(25:25):
mass, what I'm curious about ishow are they going to launch new
products?
I mean, what do you do?
Do you just try to go to a bigbox store and say, hey, I got
these new products, can I get a$2 million PO?
And normally the big boxretailers are like, well, what's
the spins data?
Where's the proof of concept?
Oh, sorry, we don't have that,we left that channel.

(25:47):
Can you buy into it?
So I think it's just adangerous road if they go down
that road.
So, I think a lot of them aretrying to navigate.
How do they still keep theirfoot in the door in the health
food stores while also trying togrow into mass market?
But as a retailer, you have thepower to promote what you want.
And this is just the lastlittle part of this, too, is the

(26:09):
retailer has the power topromote what they want.
So you don't necessarily haveto flip the light switch off on
many of these legacy brands Ofcourse not.
You build that demand for thelast 10, 20 years.
People are used to that product.
But I think it would be veryprudent for the retailer to look
at new brands and new offeringsand new innovative formulas,

(26:30):
still keeping some of thatlegacy stuff, but keeping in
mind that the legacy is goinginto other markets, so it's not
necessarily going to be along-term partnership.

Chase Ballard (26:41):
And that's that's kind of.
I'm having an argument rightnow with a very big brand in the
industry.
That's kind of sharing andtrying to figure out what they
want to do and they've kind ofsaid we're committed to the
independence over and over andover.
That's what their mouth issaying, but their actions are
starting to do different thingsand that's the thing that they

(27:01):
have to be careful with andthat's what I've been telling
the leadership there is like youhave to be very careful with
this because some actions you'remaking you may not think
they're a big deal, but the waythe independent channel sees
this is a colossal issue.
You know, we're okay to anextent with you having a facing
or two in a target, like okay ifit's the same price or if we
have a better price.
Or we're okay to an extent withyou having a facing or two in a
in a target, like okay if it'sthe same price or if we have a

(27:22):
better price or we're onpromotion.
Usually we're not going to loseour minds.
You know we don't love it.
It's kind of like eh, come on,why are you doing this?
Are we not good enough?
Type thing.
But okay, I get it.
It's, you know target, whateverI get it.
But when you start doingpromotions there, you start
creating exclusive SKUs or youstart leaning into these type
things and showing more loyaltynot loyalty, but more favoritism

(27:48):
to the mass market or starteven doing some of the things
that you, the line starts to bedrawn.
And that's where brands need tobe very, very, very careful with
that.
They need to be very carefulwith every step they take,
because I think the wholeindustry, the whole independent

(28:08):
channel, is weary of creatinganother, you know, another
garden.
We're weary of letting thathappen again.
And so I think everybody's onguard to kind of.
I'm seeing a lot more retailersactually stand up and say, hey,
no, we're not standing for thisand see some standards I think
are even extreme, but I'm happyfor them.

(28:31):
Like you know, that's where Iwent back to the beginning of,
like you own your store.
So like, if you think that'swhat's best for your business,
do that.
So I do see more retailersstanding up and saying no, but
we also on the flip side.
The other thing I'm passionateabout is that on the flip side,
we have to say yes to becomingand staying the influencer in

(28:51):
our neighborhood, the incubatoras well, because that's what our
intrigue is Like if you're notthe influencer in your
neighborhood and and I like theword should be influencer, and I
used to say health advocate inyour neighborhood.
But it's really the reasonbrands are kind of freaking out
right now is the wholeinfluencer craze, like health
food stores used to be theinfluencer.

(29:13):
That's who we were.
That's why people came to seeus.
Well, now you don't need that.
We need to remind people,especially our communities, why
we are the influencer for healthin our community and to trust
us.
But we need to focus on thatand remind the retailer, the
brands, why they need us,because it is a symbiotic

(29:34):
relationship.
Every brand that's gone mass andhas made the independent
channel upset has gone as ashell of its former self.
I mean, it just happens.
So, as a brand, they have to bevery careful with how they
navigate this water too, becauseI have seen some brands
successfully play a little inmass and some of us haven't

(29:56):
gotten too mad yet.
But it's a very fine line and Ihave to be very careful with
that.

Tina Smith (30:02):
Yes, it kind of brings me back to Michael, what
you were talking about.
Like, you want to find thesespecialty products that work.
They can bring them into yourstore and the segue here is
moving from okay, there arebrands where you're getting a
little bit wary of them as astore because they don't match

(30:24):
your philosophy anymore orthey're doing things to undercut
the channel that you've helpedthem create.
So how do you find thoseproducts that are going to be
the next great products for theindependent channel and for your
consumers?
And then how do you startswitching?
So you know, chase, you talkedabout Nutrition World just

(30:55):
pulling product off the shelfand giving a big credit back to
the manufacturer.
But that is from ourdiscussions with retailers.
That is a different approach.
That's a lot more scary thanmaybe what they're willing to
commit to.

Chase Ballard (31:04):
Well, let me answer that real quick.
I don't know if that wasdirected towards Mike or not,
but I'm going to hop in when yourealize the key here, because I
think that question is actuallymaybe phrased wrong.
The key is, and what I realized, the light bulb came on for me

(31:25):
during that transition.
At Nutrition World we cut.
At this time it was the hottestitem in the world.
It was the Natural Vitality.
I think that's the name of itCalm.
I haven't sold it in years so Idon't remember what it's called
.
I think it's Natural Vitality.
It was the hottest thing.
Everybody was you have to callit magnesium.
I mean, we were selling tons ofit but they had no map.

(31:45):
I don't even know if they stillhave a map.
I think they're owned by Cloroxnow, but I don't know.
But anyways, we could literallybuy it cheaper on Amazon than
we were getting it fromdistribution and that was
probably the one I was the mostworried about cutting.
I was like this is going tosuck, we're going to get in

(32:07):
trouble.
But we transitioned over toBlue Bonnets called Magnesium
had the same name.
It was an easy transition andthat's when the light bulb
flipped for me and I actuallyunderstood the power good
retailers have, and that is weput a sign up, hey, and we made
sure not to not to disparagenatural vitality is quality,

(32:29):
because we we want to stand forquality.
We've carried, we carried thebrand for years.
We're not going to say, oh,it's all of a sudden crap
product.
We said, hey, we don't see iteye to eye business wise anymore
.
They're just, they havedifferent priorities that don't,
don't, don't support ourbusiness.
Um, we've got this other brandthat we feel is just as good, if
not better.
Um, here's, you know, here's a10 discount on it.

(32:50):
Um, it's this, or you know, itmay be even cheaper.
And um, yeah, this justsupports our business better.
And so people will be like, oh,you don't have calm, is this
just as good?
And you like it better?
Yeah, all right, perfect.
And they just grab that and go.
So, just seeing, I think wemaybe had five to three percent
of customers that would stop andactually go buy calm somewhere

(33:13):
else.
But nothing, like I thought itwas.
I thought we were going to begetting laughed at by not having
this one thing people wanted,but that's what I learned is a
good retailer that is, thatinfluencer in their community or
that influencer to thatcustomer.
They want what you recommend,they trust you, you're their

(33:34):
influencer, so they're coming toyou.
It's not about the product youhave, so say you're trying to
get rid of you know, um,anything.
I mean we could say we'retrying to get rid of liquid IV,
just to throw my talk about mygear.
Bring in, bring in great, butreally bring in great.

(33:58):
Naturally, stand behind it, doit, do a display of it, sample
it.
I guarantee you, guarantee you,it'll be a top seller.
But it's because of you.
It's not really because any ofthe products.
It's because of you and peopletrust you.
So it's that's.
You can create any and that'swhat I tell these brands when I
argue with them.
I can find another greens, Ican find another.
I can find another greens.

(34:19):
I can find another collagen, Ican find another vegan protein.
I don't need you.
Yeah, it's nice to have you andI like partnering with you.
I don't need you.
Now, again, the key is you haveto be the influencer in your
community.
If you're not the influencer inyour community and people do
just come to you because you'rejust convenient, yeah, don't do
that, don't do that.
But if you're the influence inyour community and people come

(34:44):
to you and they trust you andyou have good pricing and they
they trust you with all theirhealth things.
They're going to switch if yousay switch Anyway, sorry.

Tina Smith (34:53):
No, that's great.
I mean, I heard several thingsthere too, and I imagine you
guys had blue bonnet products inthe store at the time already.
They weren't a new vendor, werethey?

Chase Ballard (35:04):
Right, no, they were not.

Tina Smith (35:05):
So again, there are so many like psychological
things that were going on there.
First, you guys were theinfluencers in the community and
you were directing them to adifferent product.
The product was alreadyfamiliar.
They had, at least peripherally, seen the brand name on the
shelves behind you.
So you weren't like here's abrand new thing you've never
seen before.

(35:25):
So there's familiarity that wasbuilt there and you guys
explained, like you communicatedwhat was happening and didn't
just pull the rug out from underpeople and then make them ask
questions about it so that itseems a little shady versus
being really transparent aboutwhat's going on and what you're
doing.
So a lot of things that youguys just did right intuitively,

(35:47):
around changing out the brands.
But okay, here's anotherquestion and this is maybe where
I was going initially, micah,but in the end wanted to get to
that point, chase, about thisbrand conversion.
But, micah, how do you findthose good partners?
How are you vetting them tofigure out?
Okay, this is the next personthat is offering, or

(36:11):
manufacturer that's offering, agood product for the customers,
one that you can believe in.
They're going to support theindustry, at least for the time
being.
It's always a relationship andyou get to choose to get in or
out.
But um, how do you know they'rethe right partner?

Micah Corrigan (36:44):
answer with be well verified, um, and so be
well verified will be, um, youknow, kind of that resource for
stores to find those answers.
You know, uh, the mapconversation, the quality
conversation, the innovation, uh, the support, the promotions,
the margins, uh, those are allfactors that you know I take,
you know, into account.
Chase takes into account, chaseis also helping with Be Well
Verified, and so you knowthere's the map is a huge thing.

(37:10):
Also, just getting involvedwith I mean I read Vitamin
Retailer, going to trade shows,you know having good
relationships with your you knowwith your sales reps and
brokers.
I mean the information is, youknow, having good relationships
with your, you know, with yoursales reps and brokers.
I mean the information is atyour fingertips.
But being being open to them aswell, like you know a lot of, a
lot of stores, you knowsometimes they just say like, oh
, I have this calendar, you knowthis, you know.

(37:32):
You know I'm not going to bringit in yet, which is fine, or
they're not bringing in any newproducts.
But just being open to you knowwhen there, I guarantee you,
there's brands that are tryingto like reach out to to the
stores and just being open tothat as well, so I'm not sure if
that totally answered yourquestion, tina.

Tina Smith (37:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think there are these criteria
that you can go down to evaluatethese manufacturers before they
even come in, and you can askthe right questions while you're
vetting them to both make surethey've got a great formulation
that you can trust, but alsothat they're going to be good
for your business.

(38:13):
It's one of the things thatwe're looking at constantly when
we're looking at inventory andproduct mixes and you're going,
oh my gosh, this entire brand ofSKUs is around a 20 something
percent margin in theirsupplements.
What is happening and that is alegit thing that we've just
found in one of our reviews ofproduct inventory.

(38:34):
So it's the kind of thing thatif you're making a checklist for
yourselves, if you're listeningto this conversation and you're
starting to make a checklistfor yourselves, make sure you're
finding a product that's notjust good for the customer
that's always a top priority butit's also got to be good for
your business and someone thatis not going to undercut you in
the market, so you can't find itcheaper on Amazon, cheaper than

(38:58):
even you can buy at wholesaleprices.
I mean, these are the kinds ofstandards, just to have a little
checklist for yourself, thatyou're going okay, I can trust
these people and put a matrixtogether, because some of the
things that we talk about arelike hey, do they have trainers
that are willing to come trainyour staff, or at least online
training that you can pointpeople to?

(39:18):
Will they be able to help youwith educational materials for
your customers?
As you're changing things outand I will tell you that not all
brands that are good and end upbeing good partners have all
these things but if you makeyourself a matrix and you're
sort of weighting each of theseitems on it, you're like, oh,
this one's better than that oneand you start putting things

(39:38):
together.
I think Chase at one's betterthan that one and you start
putting things together.
I think, chase, at one pointyou had a thing where it was
like all right, you guys are alevel, you guys are B.
Hey, you guys just slipped downto a C rating and then the
manufacturers are calling yougoing wait, how did I get to be
a C?

Chase Ballard (39:55):
Yeah, no, and that's what I was going to say
too of if.
If there is a brand out therethere you like and they don't
have that conversation, you'llbe shocked.
But have the conversation andhold your standards and say, hey
, here's what we need.
But if it's a brand you likeand you say, hey, I love your
product, I love your quality,but I really need X, y and Z,

(40:15):
don't just look at it from theoutside and be like, oh, we
can't partner, you'd be shocked.
Hey, you can help educate thatbrand and enforce the mission of
the independent channel as welland educate them by saying, hey
, we want to bring you in, buthere's.
You know you might be that onestraw that breaks the camel back
, but you know it was beenthinking about Matt for a while
and you know you're right, weneed to do it.

(40:40):
You'd be shocked that thatmight, you might be what they
need to hear, but you'd beshocked that you know you may
get that discount you wanted,that you didn't think you were
going to get.
You may get the co-op youthought you weren't going to get
.
So I mean, always have thatconversation of something you
think is really good for yourcustomers.
At least have the conversation,because you'll be shocked to
see what you can actually get.

Amanda Ballard (40:55):
Well and the other thing too is you know you
might think, well, I'm just oneretailer, I'm just talking to my
sales rep.
What power do they have?
And you'd be shocked at theamount of people that will
actually take that to theirhigher up and be like, hey, this
store says like we're a C grade, what the heck?
We can't, we can't stand forthat.

(41:16):
And things can change even justthrough one retailer having one
conversation with a sales rep.
So don't undervalue your voice.

Micah Corrigan (41:24):
You know, when we're bringing in new brands,
the first question that I ask iswhat's the map?
The second question that I askis what's the quality?
And some people might thinkthat that should be reversed.
But if I'm selling the mostmiracle of miracle products and
people can get it $30, $40, $50cheaper on Amazon, I'm not going

(41:45):
to sell it.
I think it's just going toleave a bad taste in our
customer's mouth and we're goingto look bad.
It's going to ruin ourreputation and I'll just
encourage them and be like hey,I think it's a great product,
but you just have to buy itelsewhere.
I just can't carry it.
We have educated staff and wehave to pay them.
We have to pay for theconvenient locations that are in

(42:06):
this area.
So if you value you know theservices here, if you value the
convenient locations, we'regoing to make sure that we have
an affordable price, a fairprice.
But you know, you know we stillhave to like keep this going
here, you know, but, uh, youknow, you know we still have to
like keep this going here, youknow.
Otherwise, you know we couldjust, you know, close up shop um
, tomorrow.
You know if that would be abetter thing for our community.

(42:29):
But I don't think that is so.
The first question is alwaysmap Um, and then the second
question is like you know, theinnovation, the formula, high
quality Um.
My manager told me that she's,she's, you know she's going to
kill me.
If I like, bring in anothermagnesium product.
So I don't know how that'sgoing to end I can't stop.
It's a bad addiction do youreally need 50 varieties?

(42:54):
That's the question.

Chase Ballard (42:55):
Well, maybe but this one, this one's threonate
and citrate and bisglycinate.

Tina Smith (43:03):
Tell me you're a natural products retailer
without telling me you're anatural products retailer.

Micah Corrigan (43:09):
But this one's like a zomal change.

Tina Smith (43:10):
You know all 18 formulations of magnesium and
what they do for you.

Chase Ballard (43:16):
Yeah, but Micah's right, do not.
The biggest advice I would tellevery retailer, the first
biggest, one of the biggestpieces of advice other than make
sure you're the influence inyour community is do not carry a
brand that makes you look bad.
Don't carry it.
You cannot carry a brand thatmakes you look bad.
Just plain and simple.

Amanda Ballard (43:35):
Well, and also I was going to say you know
brands that won't make you lookbad, but like, don't do it to
yourself either.

Chase Ballard (43:43):
Right.

Amanda Ballard (43:44):
You know, there are brands that allow you to be
super competitive.
With them and just making thechoice to be competitive because
you can still have a reallygood margin In spite of them
having, you know, a 20, 30% map,you can still compete too.

Tina Smith (44:06):
Yeah, the other thing.
I was thinking around that, asyou guys were talking as um,
this idea of an influencer, andChase, I like that um parallel
because, you're right, there areso many brands that are going
online, some of them onlineexclusively because they just
can't compete in a retailsetting, and we can talk for
hours about why that might be,but or they've just chosen not
to, and one of the things thatthey do is they buy the time of

(44:28):
the influencer.
So I'm just curious yes, thereare things that you can do
online to be an onlineinfluencer, but in your
communities, if it's not online,then what does being an
influencer look like?
Because online it can look likeokay, you're posting every day
on social media, you're havinglives where you're answering

(44:50):
questions, you have backstorywhere you've already been, where
people are and you're trying totake them to.
Hey, I got better.
So here's how, here's the plan.

Chase Ballard (45:07):
What does that look like in a store setting
versus online?
If you're asking me, I wouldsay to hire a company called
Natural Products Marketer andthey will help you become the
influencer in your neighborhood.

Amanda Ballard (45:15):
All right, not sponsored.

Chase Ballard (45:18):
But no, I honestly don't know.
I've actually had the one thing.
I don't have all the answers, Idon't admit to I'm not the
smartest guy in the room at all,but I've been very blessed too
with the retailers I've workedwith.
You know Ed had Ed had had andstill has created such a great

(45:43):
icon with Nutrition World inChattanooga.
They were already verysuccessful when I got there and
and he was already theinfluencer.
So I've never had to becomehelp someone become an
influencer.
Now we helped I helped be apart of getting his podcast
going and helping do some ofthose type things and rebranding
and marketing and their websitelaunch and some of the behind

(46:04):
the scenes stuff.
But Ed was always kind of that.
He was already the communityinfluencer and so that's just
natural to him.
So I've never had to do thatpart.
And then DebtWilers we justhave.
I mean, we have 5,000 customersa day.
I don't, we don't.
People are here, we don't haveto go out and get people.
So I've never really had toovercome that obstacle.

(46:24):
Honestly, I don't know, but Iwould.
What I would do if it was mepersonally is I would find my
key differences.
And, micah, maybe I'll answerthis question quicker or I'll go
quicker, but I would find mykey differences.
If you haven't read the bookgood to great, read the book
good to great.
You have to.

(46:44):
If you own a business, read it.
Um, but it talks about thehedgehog concept.
But basically, what are yourkey differences versus your
competition?
Find those, shout those fromthe rooftop and then tell your
story and, using some sort ofmarketing tactic somehow, that's
what I would say Um, stand onquality, stand on pricing, stand
on your story and stand on um.

(47:06):
You know, just yeah, whateveryour experience is that you're
passionate about.
So that's what I would do.

Micah Corrigan (47:12):
And I think the good to great too is like, I
mean, it's kind of likespecializing, like find out, you
can't be everything, butspecialize, you know, because
you know, know what you're goodat and then just really, you
know, go all in on that.
I know you know what Ed wouldsay too is, like, you know, be
the expert in your field.
And so people are coming to thehealth food store and they are

(47:34):
looking for solutions toproblems.
And you know, definitely ahundred percent, we're in a
people business and we justhappen to sell vitamins.
Uh, but you know you have to.
You know people are looking forI have joint problems, I have
heart problems, I have, you know, blood pressure issues um,
perfect opportunity to show themthe therapeutic products that

(47:55):
you carry.
And so you know you can't.
You know this is what I mean byunique, boutique and therapeutic
.
Like, unique, it has to be, um,you know it has to be
innovative, it has to be.
You know it just can't be likethe 51st magnesium that you're
bringing in, just a commodityitem.
Um, boutique, it's a benefit ifit's not sold everywhere.

(48:15):
Um, you know people have tocome to you to buy it.
And then, therapeutic, it has tobe well-dosed.
It has to help people.
It has to not be a kitchen sink, because when people you know,
when their wallets are gettingtight, when people are cutting
their budget, they're not goingto cut the products that are
actually helping them, they'reover, feel a difference.
And so when you sell a productat the health food store and you

(48:38):
really help that customer andthey come back, you know 30 days
, 60, I'm like, oh my gosh, thatprotocol that you gave me, like
that product that you gave me,that just helped me, you know so
immensely.
That word of mouth is they'regoing to tell their friends,
they're going to tell theirfamily members, they're going to
come in and they're not goingto get that type of service from
maybe more of a traditionalinfluencer.

(49:00):
Maybe I'm talking out of turnhere, but maybe they're
entertaining kind of thetraditional influencer.
Sure, nothing wrong with that,I love entertainment.
But they earn their trust andyou have to earn your trust.
You have to earn your customers'trust, and that is with selling
therapeutic products thatactually help people.

(49:21):
You can't just be selling.
This is kind of what I'm afraidof.
Where everything's going is alot of these legacy companies.
They started out in the healthfood store.
They had the therapeuticproduct the way that the
manufacturer intended it, andnow this big box retailer is
looking at those spins numbers.
They want those moolulu numbersto go up and it's just too high

(49:44):
of a price.
They know that their customeris not going to pay $30 for that
product or $40 for that product.
They'll pay $10.
How do you get to $10?
Well, you got to cut somecorners.
Easiest way to do it would becutting the potencies down,
using cheaper ingredients andthen maybe cutting the servings
down.
But the marketing is the same,you know, and so you know it's

(50:07):
very frustrating when I'll seesome of these products at a big
box store and it looks like thesame.
It's the same product.
On the front it looks almostidentical, and then on the back
it's like a different formula.
It's different servings,potency.
The average consumer is notgoing to pick up on that, but
then they'll remember why did Igo to that health food store?

(50:28):
That was, like you know, 50%more.
Why was that 30 bucks and it's$15 here?
Why is that?
And so that's also not a verygood long-term strategy, which
kind of goes back to what Chasewas saying Don't carry products
that make you look bad, becausethat's going to be an ever
ongoing battle for that retailer.

Amanda Ballard (50:47):
Well, it was interesting.
I was having a conversationjust this morning with an
industry friend and we weretalking about how a lot of these
products that have been createdto go direct to consumer
they're choosing the lowerquality ingredients and they're
still pricing them prettyoutrageously, in my opinion,

(51:08):
because they're basically justpadding their marketing budget
so they can actually get theirproducts to as many eyeballs as
they can.
But if you're an influencer inthe typical sense of the word,
you know talking about productson Instagram.
No one cares that it's KSM 66ashwagandha that's like out of
their vocabulary.

(51:29):
You're never going tocommunicate that, so they don't
put that in the product.
But we all know that that's thesuperior form of ashwagandha
and that's what you're going tofind in the health food store.
So it's like you have to againdifferentiate yourself with
those high quality products andbe able to effectively
communicate why this productthat you carry on your shelves

(51:50):
is way better than this directto consumer brand that you found
for half price on amazon, causethere's probably a reason for
that.

Chase Ballard (51:59):
Yeah, every, every moment of an owner's day,
or, uh, if you own a health foodstore should be how can I, how
can I remind people why theyshop with me or how can I?
That's really your entire goalof how can I make them remember
or know why they shop with usversus someone else.

(52:22):
Like that.
It comes down to experience,and experience is a big word and
a big umbrella term, but itcould be.
You know, they, they, they,they.
It's a warm, inviting feelingin the store.
We remind them of our quality.
We talk about, you know, we talkabout how AG one is very
overpriced and not worth it.
We talk about how these brandsout there you know there's

(52:46):
reasons we don't carry certainthings.
There's reason why we we doeducate on the certain
ingredients, but basically it'severything you do should be
repositioned of making thatcustomer loyal to you and not
only that, but making themambassadors for you to where
they're going out in theircommunity and sharing your
gospel message of whatever youstand for.

(53:06):
And I guess you know the bigthing is look at yourself in the
mirror and what do you standfor.
That's where I started outsaying have a backbone, like
don't look at AG1 and be likeGod, it's selling so well, I
need to bring it in.
Let's just buy it at a bulkdiscount and let's just resell
it at the price that's whatpeople want.
Let's get it in.
It's like no, like, have yourgreens, that you think is best

(53:28):
and and make a sign.
I mean, we made a sign.
I don't know where it's at.
Yeah, I got one here.
I was tired.
I was tired of hearing aboutAG1, so I made a little thingy
or Amanda made it for me, butyou know that was AG1 and Bloom,
because I was tired of hearingabout that.
And then Green Vibrance andAncient talks about different
things and that's posted in ourgreens.

(53:51):
It's just like just talk aboutwhat you have and what's special
about it.

Tina Smith (53:54):
Wait, do you guys know each other?

Chase Ballard (53:58):
We've met a few times.

Tina Smith (54:05):
I like that.
I like that idea like if youhave a chart right there, uh,
showing like this, this has thisingredient and it this doesn't,
it's very helpful for like afirst look I'll be honest, like
I don't know how Mike feels, butwhen Mike was talking about
being specialty, in my opinion,this industry is not hard.

Chase Ballard (54:25):
If people have lost customers or something has
happened.
I think it's the retailer needsto look at their self in the
mirror and ask themselves are wefocused on what we're
passionate?
Are we being fair to thecustomer?
Are we treating the customerlike we want to be treated, with
pricing, with product quality,with these things and um, and
maybe it's a time to look in themirror and really refocus on

(54:46):
those things Because, honestly,if you're being honest with your
customers, with pricing andquality and the right products,
and you're caring about yourcustomers, they're not going to
leave you.
I mean so you know.
Also, do the lights work inyour store?
Is the?
Is it clean?
Like there are things you haveto take care of?

(55:11):
But, um, if you price it mapand you carry solid products and
you're honest with your peopleand you tell them why you do
what you do, I don't think it'sthat hard.

Tina Smith (55:16):
But again, I have been a little blessed for the
retailers I work at, but yeah,Well, also, I mean, I think,
Chase, you undervalue a littlebit of things that come really
easily to you, and so when otherpeople start looking at the
different things that they needto do pricing strategy, how to
communicate, what makes themdifferent, even if they're great

(55:39):
, you know, showing up in theircommunity and partnering with
practitioners, like all thesethings there's a lot of that
that comes super easy to you.
I think it's simple tacticsthat you're talking about.

Chase Ballard (56:01):
But it's still work.

Tina Smith (56:03):
Yeah, it's still work and it's still like
identifying the right levers andthings.

Chase Ballard (56:11):
And so just because it's not hard, it
doesn't mean it's easy.

Tina Smith (56:14):
Right, yeah, that's a good point, and I just, if
you're listening to this andyou're like Chase says, this is
easy and it's not there arepieces of it that you sometimes,
um, you're in it, right, andyou can't see all the pieces
that I do think come a littlebit more naturally to you, chase

(56:34):
.
And so having someone from theoutside, even if it's a friend,
even if you're calling Micah orChase, and just being like hey,
what do you think I've got thestruggle that I'm dealing with
Sometimes, having someone fromthe outside just sort of take a
look and go hold on a secondhere, here are some simple
things, cause you're just in theday to day getting that done,
so I, and that's what.

Amanda Ballard (56:55):
I love about this industry too is like that's
how you guys met Micah andChase so many years ago.
We hadn't even met in personuntil like a year and a half ago
, which just blows my mind butit was like let me call Chase
and talk to him about this thing, because I'm not alone.
Love about this industrybetween you know SEMPA,

(57:21):
positively Natural, maho, thesedifferent organizations, like
there are so many people likeChase, like Micah, that are
willing to just hop on the phone, answer an email, like send a
text, and just be there tosupport each other, because
you're not each other'scompetition and you probably
wouldn't even view other peoplein your community as your
competition Because you knowTina says this all the time you

(57:42):
know a rising tide raises allships and when our industry
thrives it's a benefit toeverybody.

Micah Corrigan (57:52):
Yeah absolutely, some people are so focused on
like their closer competition,on like their close, closer
competition and, um, you know, II had a, a friend, come up to
our stores and sell us hisproducts and, um, what did he
say?
He was like you know, we're,you know we're both retailers.

(58:12):
And you know, I told him I'mlike dude, you're not, you're
not my competition.
And I was so happy to support,um, another retailer's products,
put them on end cap.
I was so happy to support, like, another independent owner and,
um, you know, and it's also,you know, local from Wisconsin,

(58:35):
um, but I was just so happy todo that.
And then, you know, I heardthis other retailer, they're
coming out with their productsand other retailers coming out
with a product.
Like, I mean, I think theseretailers are also kind of just
tired of seeing what's beengoing on the last decade.
It's not the most difficult toget, you know, good materials.
It's not like you know 1848 andyou had to be a

(58:57):
Rockefellerfeller, you know, toget your hands on good raw
materials.
Um, so I think we are startingto see like a landscape shift of
you know, I think the brands,the products you see in the
shelves today will be totallydifferent in in five years.
Um, you know, it's just it's I.
I think a lot of um, new brandsare coming out.
It's just it's I.

(59:18):
I think a lot of um, new brandsare coming out.
It's very exciting and I thinkstores can totally there just
needs to be like a change and,um, and I think, brand, I think
stores have to also have to like, you know, take that to heart
because, okay, kind of off topic, but, um, if it's just about
money, like, if it's just aboutmoney, this is what I always
joke with you know our staffabout.
But if it's just about money,like if it's just about money

(59:39):
and this is what I always jokewith you know our staff about
but if it's just about money andit's selling and it's just
about money, why don't we justsell cigarettes?
I mean, it's a good seller,right.
So, like that's kind of goingback to what Chase is is like,
have a backbone, you know, carrythe products that you believe
in.
You know, make sure that youhave, like the map and the high

(01:00:02):
quality products, but you don'thave to carry everything.
Retailers are confined intowhatever, like a 3,000, 6,000,
10,000, 20,000 square foot space.
You can't carry everything.
You're not going to win thatgame.
Amazon carries everything fromA to Z.
The internet carries everysingle product under the sun.
You don't have infinite space.

(01:00:24):
You're never going to win thebattle of variety.
So you know what is it?
Jeff Bezos, I think, said thisit's like people always want,
you know, fast shipping, cheapprices and the large variety.
Right, you're never going tocompete on the variety.
That's never going to happen.
And then for shipping, Iunderstand shipping is

(01:00:47):
complicated.
If you're a health food store inone area, I would focus on that
community.
I would win that community.
I would be the best retailer inthat community.
I wouldn't worry about threestates over and trying to get
the best USPS shipping rates andstart selling to those people.
Win the community.
Be the expert in your community.
Focus on that.
And then cheap prices.

(01:01:08):
Don't carry the products thatyou know are constantly
undercutting you.
You know.
Don't do that.
You know, carry I would.
We sell everything at MAP andthen from there we discount
further using our rewardsprogram.
We sell everything at map andthen from there we discount
further using our rewardsprogram.
But you know some stores whenthey sell things at like full
MSRP retail.
I mean that just also makes melook bad.

(01:01:32):
I'm like, hey man, you'recreating the wrong impression
for stores.
Like, can you not do that?
Like bring it down to that fairlevel, and then you know, after
you're carrying things at map,then you know you can negotiate
margins with the brand, but youhave to be at a competitive
right and also brands are happyto do that.
I think brands.
If you're, if you're selling italways at a very competitive
price, they're very happy to dodeals with you.

(01:01:56):
What they don't want is for youto like pad and make a 70, 80%
margin, yeah, and, like you know, just keep selling it at full
retail.
Oh, it's not selling, I don'tknow.
Well, have you tried, you know,having it at a more reasonable
price, or more affordable priceor competitive price?

Chase Ballard (01:02:13):
Um, yeah, people, people used to say, or people
think that I get these amazingdiscounts and I mean I'm sure I
get some decent discounts, butI've gotten a reputation.
I mean I'm sure you have aswell, mike, but I have a
reputation and I get gooddiscounts because, a I ask and
then B the brands.
Trust me to know that I'm goingto pass it on when we promote

(01:02:34):
stuff, we don't make a lot ofmoney on the promotion.
We actually don't.
Yeah, when we promote stuff iswhen we make the least amount of
money on that brand.
But the idea is we are buildingloyalty and we're building a
repeat customer to come back andget it when it's at, when it's
at map, because we make decentmargin when it's at map.
So I mean, but people I likethat and that's that promotion

(01:02:54):
cycle.

Micah Corrigan (01:02:55):
I mean, you know that's and that's, I think,
what stores have to do Likethere's Tina, you kind of like
mentioned this matrix too.
There's four games in thisindustry.
There's the EDLP game, there'sthe volume game, there's the
line drive game and then there'sthe random discounts game and I
hate those the most.
But the golden goose of forretailers is going to be this

(01:03:15):
EDLP margin and a lot of brandscan't afford that.
But edlp margin and a lot ofbrands can't afford that.
Um, but that would be kind oflike the golden goose is like a
really good everyday discountand, you know, not a huge like
minimum order shipping, uh.
The second uh game is volume.
You know, if you can work itout with your brand, hey, I'm
gonna order this bulk and I canget it at this, this discount.

(01:03:38):
I think that is like the bestway to go.
Line drives are the third game.
It's very sometimes confusingbecause typically there's like
four line drives a year, threeline drives a year, and stores
will order it on promotion, butthen if they're out of stock in,
let's just say, february, andthey place another reorder and

(01:03:59):
it's at wholesale.
Well, there are a lot of themare just going to wait for three
weeks till Expo West comesaround, when they can order it
on promo.
So the line drives, they'refine.
But it kind of creates thislike habit of ordering.
Like reorders are dependent ona Gregorian calendar month,
whereas if you do the volume,you know that you can order it

(01:04:20):
seven days a week, four weeks amonth, 12 months a year.
You just have to get to thatvolume and volume ordering is
dependent on item movement.
So you, yeah, buy it, put it onpromotion, try to create that
demand, sell it, and then youknow you can buy it again at
that discount and then you cankeep doing that and you don't
always have to that discount andthen you can keep doing that

(01:04:40):
and you don't always have topromote it.
You can stop the promotion fora month or two months and then
kind of reap that margin andkind of get that back.
But volume and EDLP is the bestway and the random discounts I
don't really like that.
Just because I call this onecompany, I was like, well, when
is your ashwagandha gonna be onsale next?
And like, well, when is yourashwagandha going to be on sale

(01:05:06):
next?
And they're like I don't know.
And as a retailer, as a buyer,I am trying to allocate funds.
Typically I do it for a yearand I don't know how much money
to set aside.
You know, I don't, I don'tquite know Am I going to like
sell it out and then I'm goingto be making a 20% margin for
the rest of the year, until I'mnot quite sure about that.
So those are my least favorite.
But yeah, volume and and EDLPs,um line drives are great, but
you know, I think it kind ofcreates bad habits.

Tina Smith (01:05:29):
Yeah, man, I wish that we could.
Just I know there's anothergood hour in this conversation
that we could have.
Um, I mean, Amanda, what do youthink?

Amanda Ballard (01:05:46):
Oh, yeah, well, I mean, we can always just
schedule part two Because wecould.
We can talk all day, which Ilove, but yeah, we want to make
sure that our, our listeners cancan hang with us.
So let's definitely have youguys on again if you're willing,
because you guys are just fullof knowledge and wisdom.
And I don't know about you,tina, but, like I, I have a lot
of hope for industry listeningto these guys because of how

(01:06:09):
passionate they are and how wellthey run their businesses.
So I'd love to just continue topass along your words of wisdom
to our listeners because I knowthat they'll really benefit
from it.
But thank you so much for beingwith us here today.

Tina Smith (01:06:24):
Yeah, so excited to have you guys.
I mean, I think there were somany nuggets that we could
double click on on another date,so I'd love to have you guys on
again because it's just suchpractical information, from
pricing to replacement to hey,this is a whole marketing
strategy that we could talkabout.
But loved all the informationand would love to have you back

(01:06:48):
and just really appreciate youboth.

Micah Corrigan (01:06:51):
Yeah.

Chase Ballard (01:06:51):
Yeah, thanks for having us on it was fun.

Micah Corrigan (01:06:56):
Chase and I are the same person.

Amanda Ballard (01:07:01):
Thanks so much for listening to the natural
products marketer podcast.
We hope you found this episodeto be super helpful.
Make sure you check out theshow notes for any of those
valuable resources that wementioned on today's episode.

Tina Smith (01:07:12):
And, before you go, we would love for you to give us
a review.
Follow, like and subscribe onApple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube
or wherever you're listeningtoday, and make sure you join us
for our next episode, where wegive you more marketing tips so
that you can reach more peopleand change more lives.