March 5, 2024 • 60 mins
In this episode, we sit down with Teri Hoffman to talk about market research, who reveals how the largest companies orchestrate product launches. We navigate a thought-provoking discussion that balances the precision of hard data with the nuances of marketing intuition, including eye-opening case studies like the launch of Procter & Gamble's Febreze.
Teri underscores the power of first impressions and the art of distilling genuine feedback from potential customers. Do you need lots of data or should you trust your gut instinct? Listen to the full episode to find out.
Teri underscores the power of first impressions and the art of distilling genuine feedback from potential customers. Do you need lots of data or should you trust your gut instinct? Listen to the full episode to find out.
Connect with us:
Email: info@naturalproductsmarketer.com
About Amanda Ballard
Amanda has worked in natural products marketing in the retail setting since 2016 and has a great understanding of the unique challenges and opportunities that retailers in this industry face. More than anything, she wants this industry to continue to boom and believes much of that success hinges on the ability of retailers to do well in their businesses and market their products effectively.
About Tina Smith
Since 2014, Tina has worked with multiple natural products businesses, discovering how to market their CBD products online, without having their payment processor shut them down, to letting customers talk about their health issues those products have helped them solve. She knows first hand how experts like you offer the best products and a superior customer experience, that is why she is committed to helping you find an easy way to grow your natural product business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Teri Hoffman (00:00):
Big companies do a lot of this work.
It's called simulated test,marketing concept testing,
forecasting sales for newlaunches.
They do a lot of pre-launchwork to really try to prove it
out before they go to market.
For two reasons.
One is big investment just likeanybody would try to validate
their idea from a garage fiddleor founder working on a new
invention to big, huge companies.
(00:22):
But the reason big companieshave to rely so much on that
type of research before theylaunch is primarily because
Welcome to the Natural ProductsMarketer podcast.
Tina Smith (00:37):
I'm Tina and I'm Amanda, and we're here to make
marketing easier for naturalproducts businesses, so you can
reach more people and changemore lives.
Amanda Ballard (00:49):
So, Terry, I'm excited to have you on the
podcast because you went throughthe whole story brand training
process around the same timethat I did and that's where we
got to meet.
So I know that you know abouthow to tell stories to help
market products and services,which is awesome, and at the
same time, you are a data geek.
(01:09):
So you started a company arounddata research and whether or
not that you need to use it,whether or not it works well.
So tell us your story aboutstarting your company, what led
you to do that and what led youto decide to get into the field
of marketing as well.
Teri Hoffman (01:28):
Yeah Well, my career has primarily been yes,
formally in marketing research,primarily in, I'd say, either
innovation or renovation, so newproducts going to market, or
revamping the brand message, soclients who have new ideas in
either realm and primarily bigcorporate lands.
(01:50):
So I've worked in big companies.
I've worked in big servicecompanies doing marketing
research to go to marketstrategy, which is a lot of
consumer testing along the way.
So marketing research hasreally been what would be my
primary kind of specialization,if you will.
As far as the data geek part,using data that comes from
(02:11):
potential customers, gettingfeedback, doing research with
customers to try to hone andrefine and prove out new ideas
Before they go to market, andalso, once they go into market,
it's seeing how they're doing,course correcting that sort of
thing.
So that's what I've always done.
For about 10 years, I worked ina big research company
(02:32):
specializing in new productlaunches and we had a model that
we would use that would includeinputs from potential customers
.
So we get feedback to new ideasalong the way of developing
them, as well as inputs abouthow you're going to go to market
.
So what kind of marketing areyou going to do?
(02:52):
Are you going to advertise ornot?
Are you going to be on TV ornot?
Where will this be sold?
All those things impact howmany you'll sell and if you'll
sell as many as you're hoping.
So big companies do a lot ofthis work.
It's called simulated test,marketing, concept testing,
forecasting sales for newlaunches.
They do a lot of pre-launchwork to really try to prove it
(03:13):
out before they go to market.
For two reasons.
One is it's a big investment,just like anybody would try to
validate their idea, from agarage fiddler founder working
on a new invention to big, hugecompanies.
But the reason big companieshave to rely so much on that
type of research before theylaunch is primarily because it's
(03:35):
not easy to prototype.
It can cost millions of dollarsto create a tangible thing to
see if people will buy it.
So we have to try to figure outcan we attract people to this?
Do we have the right offer?
Do we have the right features?
Do we have the right message?
Get it as tight as we can.
And we have to prove out to themoneyholders that this thing is
(03:57):
going to at least meet ourexpectations for what we need to
pay back our investment.
So that's what big companies doand that's kind of work I did.
It's primarily 20 years, but 10of my years were really really
specialized in that arena and wehad all the rigorous approaches
.
We did what you call concepttesting, which in the startup
world is more like ideavalidation, so getting feedback
(04:20):
from potential customers.
Users want to have a prototype.
But we did this at a much morescaled level Lots of big sample
sizes with lots of people in ourresearch and we have very
proven out, accurate, very proud, very accurate ability to
(04:40):
predict sales, down to how manyproducts you'll sell in year one
.
So we had to constantly refineour models and break them apart
and see if they're wrong andthat sort of thing.
So that taught me a lot aboutlaunches, but nonetheless.
So I worked.
We're all about the rigor, but Ialways loved the little things
and the nuances you get fromactually talking directly to
(05:01):
potential customers or actualcustomers, the little things
they'd say, the context of howthey use a product.
I mean there's so much you canlearn just from having a few
conversations and that wasalways more exciting to me than
the big numbers and forecastingthe sales and putting the sales
in front of the CEO and gettingeverybody to buy and to launch a
(05:22):
new product.
So that was kind of how Ialways felt.
So I always liked the morenuanced part of marketing
research that we do, butnonetheless we were all about
rigor.
So we did all the things forabout a year.
For just to back up a little bit, there was a particular project
I worked on with Procter Gamblefor the Fabrice brand.
Fabrice was on its way tobecoming a billion dollar brand.
(05:44):
It was hot and growing and theywere looking for new products
to launch for that brand.
And there was a particularAirFresher project that they
were working on.
That really was different fromwhat they're used to launching
into the market.
It was more expensive, it wasbig, it did all these, it was a
cool gadget and we did all theresearch and it proved it.
On paper it looked great.
We did all the concept testing.
(06:06):
We passed all of our metricsand benchmarks and thresholds.
We did the sales forecast.
Everything looked good on paper, right, but I just could tell
something wasn't right.
This once good idea felt likeit was veering onto the path to
market.
That just didn't feel right forthe idea and I could get into
all the nitty-gritty about it.
(06:26):
But long story short is it wasone of the most epic flops in
the history of the company.
I was getting ready to run a 5Kwith a good friend of mine who
worked at P&G he worked on theFebreze brand or in the same
division and he kind of made ajoke.
Hey, your name came up in ameeting the other day.
I'm like, oh really.
He's like yeah, they said tofire you.
(06:47):
Like well, that's not funny,chuck.
He said yeah, yeah, you knowthat debacle.
Febreze said stories.
He said they asked whatconsultants, what's your
research supplier, pass thisthing?
Who said we should take this tomarket?
Fire them right.
And I'm thinking something isbroken about our process,
because I could tell this thingwas going in the market.
(07:08):
All wrong, it was just thechannel it was going into.
The idea that it used to bebecame something else just
didn't feel right.
But I didn't have anyammunition at all in my hands
from the research, no signals orclues.
So I went back and dug it tothe research, which we had to do
anyway as part of our process,to really prove out our fix.
(07:30):
Where we missed right Wassomething that we were
responsible to do.
But I was also super hungry todig in, because that's why I
named my company now Hunch.
Since the first time I reallyrealized, gosh, if you have a
hunch, you have to figure out away to explore it, follow it,
hone it right, not ignore it.
All the signs were there.
Once I dug into more of what wewould call the color commentary
(07:53):
or the qualitative, open-ended,contextual stuff, like the
conversational type of data fromthe consumers that were
participants in our research wasso telling.
All the little clues andsignals were there.
They were all there.
This was a very bulky product,right.
So that was coming up.
(08:14):
It's like, well, I'd ratherjust let a candle At the time
that Shania Twain, the countrymusic singer, was going to be a
spokesperson for the product andit looked like a CD player at
the time, the old-style CDplayer, and so people were
saying, oh, it's a play music.
It's all the little signals ofthe distraction, confusion that
(08:35):
you could expect one wouldexperience the first time they
encounter this new product, thenew message for this new product
, were there, but we didn'tbring them to surface, nor did
we have good techniques to helpus really bring those things to
the surface.
They were the fluffy stuff,right.
All the hardcore numbers lookedgood and this could happen.
I mean, the more new to theworld or different or abstract
(08:58):
the thing is that you're workingon.
If it's a marketing message ora product to put in the market,
the harder it is to rely ontraditional methods of research.
Talk with customers to getfeedback.
It's the harder it is to dotraditional research if you will
, or trust it at its face value.
So, anyway, that debacle, as Ilike to call it, really led me
(09:18):
on a quest to get beyond onlylooking at the hard numbers, the
quantitative data or thestandard metrics, as we say in
the corporate world.
There's got to be a better way.
And it also felt likeoverdubbed, and I've felt this
for years working on thecorporate side of the fence and
(09:40):
the product, innovation andmarketing.
We do so much research and thelittle things are right in front
of us and they really are bestrealized just by talking, to
hearing natural words frompotential customers, from your
actual customers.
The hard part is you can't justtalk to a few people sometimes
(10:00):
and feel confident that you'reon the right track or you have
the right version, and that'swhere all the more higher sample
size split testing comes intoplay.
Then you start testing lots andlots of things and relying a
little too much on the research.
So I've really spent the last 10years studying launches in
parallel to doing marketingresearch, go to market strategy
(10:21):
with clients like crazy, becauseI just was so passionate about
finding the framework, if youwill, or the ingredients of a
really successful launch whichled me in the latter.
I guess the last 10 years spenta lot of time working on new
campaigns, new messaging forestablished brands that want to
(10:45):
reboot the foundational storythat would feed into a new
advertisement, and all the sameprinciples apply for trying to
really nail that core story ofwhat this thing will do for the
customer and then to work thatinto the messaging and the offer
.
But really it's that story ofdoing all the rigorous research
(11:05):
and still something going tomarket pretty all wrong and you
can't just blame the research.
But it's in part like leaninginto, I would argue, too much
research, too much rigor is, Iwould say, I would say with full
authority a bigger risk thanjust doing going and talking to
(11:28):
friends and family and a fewpeople when you're working on a
new idea.
I say your better bet is tofollow your instincts, not
ignore them, not ignore gettingfeedback and getting input when
you're working on something new.
But the rigorous stuff Icouldn't stand behind it anymore
, which is why I went LMIN.
Amanda Ballard (11:50):
So when you're doing research for these new
product launches or a rebrand orreboot, are you talking to
customers every time Like, whatis this?
You're saying that data isgreat, but sometimes it's not
enough, or sometimes you justhave a gut feeling that things
are wrong.
What's your process around thishunch?
Teri Hoffman (12:12):
Yes.
So definitely talking witheither potential customers or
current customers depends on thesituation or users.
If you have already at least abasic version of what you want,
if it's a product developmentinitiative and you have a
prototype or something in thestartup world they call it MVP,
(12:32):
a minimally viable product, it'ssomething that you can put in
the hands of people to see ifthey'll buy it, to see if they
like it, just help you refine it.
So in any of those scenarioswhether you're in the early
stage of I have, I know I wantto do marketing, do advertising,
or I know I want to revise mymessaging, or I have a new
(12:53):
product offer or new product Inany of those scenarios we
certainly are I would never saydon't, ever test it out and try
to refine and work, do someresearch along the way.
And just I would never advocategoing straight to market and
just seeing what happens.
I've never talked with anyonewho has done that and been
(13:13):
successful.
In fact, people who claimthat's what they've done when
you dig in, they've actuallydone quite a bit of early stage
validation, refinement bytalking with people, using,
getting reactions to theirinitial idea, kind of refining
it, getting reactions to theirinitial product.
So our process is essentiallyit's very simple, like we are
(13:36):
going to my company.
We start with ideas, so we comein when someone has an idea for
any of those scenarios.
Let's call it a product, a newproduct offering, and they're
either sure or not sure of oneof two things.
The key authority points areelements, the lead, the core
(14:00):
idea itself and how they woulddescribe that in one line, or
the customer story, which iswhat's the problem.
And then what's this, what'sthe we call it the pain to gain
script.
So it's similar to a one linerright and in the story around
world, where it's like there's aproblem in the way of something
(14:20):
somebody wants right and oursolution is going to remove that
.
So if you're not, whereveryou're unsure is where we start.
But we always start with whatwe call a Hunch Lab, which is
essentially I want to hear theorange and story behind this
idea, because there's always alot of really good clues in that
(14:44):
story.
Oftentimes they have been alittle bit forgotten or muddied,
because once you start gettinginto moving toward going to
market, a lot, one idea becomesmany and you're getting a lot of
advice.
Then you got to think about howyou're going to put in the
market and it's sort of likelet's get back to what.
Yeah, you fired up initially,so it's exploring.
You know what's your specialsauce, what's your plan, all the
(15:05):
things you about your brand oryour product, right, and then we
flip the script.
We come back In another session.
We really have found that youhave to iterate and not try to
do everything in one session.
Flip the script, call it apower hour this is just our
names for it and this is wherewe really go.
We're going to flip intocustomer mode.
Let's do a situation dump.
(15:27):
Let's think of all thesituations that would prime
somebody, make them, put them ina situation where they might
need a want or where you'regoing to have a good solution
for them, and then you know thatleads us to what we would call
a concept or a piece of stimulithat we can actually put in
front of potential customers andget their reactions.
(15:48):
When we get reactions, wealways do it.
It takes two minutes, it's aninitial reaction, it's
open-ended.
That's how we do it.
We have abandoned asking, a lotof asking why, asking if they'll
buy all these things.
Our big corporate clients stilllike to ask us questions, but we
can do it later in theinterview or in the survey,
whether it's a live interview ora survey.
But I always tell people whoare doing it themselves, like
(16:10):
lead with a pitch of some sortor an idea or the thing that you
want to get a reaction to,typically the piece of the, it's
either the idea or it's the wayin the positioning of the idea,
and oftentimes you shouldn'ttry to shove them too much
together and put too many thingsin front of people.
(16:31):
You don't want to get areaction and see where people go
with it on their own.
I mean, does it make themexcited?
Are they confused?
Are they silent?
Never a good sign.
You know if they are gettingtripped up.
That's always that lead.
You know.
You find out what's trippingthem up, right.
So, yes, we typically iteratewith we always iterate with
(16:51):
potential customers.
How many just depends on thesituation.
Could be a few, could be 150,it could be 300, depending on if
we have multiple versions.
Tina Smith (17:00):
But short answer.
So what advice do you have forpeople that are in these
decision-making?
You know roles where maybe theyare kind of lean one way or the
other, they're maybe hyperanalytical, where it's like I
need the data to tell me everylittle thing, or else I can't
pull the trigger.
Or they are the other side,where it's like if my gut says
(17:25):
no, like I will never change mymind.
How do you kind of balance thetwo?
Because it sounds like therehas to be a balance, like we
can't ignore data but we alsocan't fully rely on our hunches.
Teri Hoffman (17:42):
Yeah, well, I think you should ignore bad data
and flaw data, and that's whereI can help people, I think, if
you're hunched so I just lovethe word hunch, I like the
casualness of it, right but ifyou have an instinct, people who
have strong instincts about howto like, if it's a marketing
(18:04):
message or a product, like theyhave a strong instinct that
they're on to something right,like that is not just out of the
air and typically the piecethat people closest to I'd say,
the heart of the customerthey're trying to serve are the
closest to the problem they'retrying to solve.
The person who's been, you know, is close to the customer is
their instinct.
(18:25):
This is not some guess, right,like.
So my instinct is to lean intosomeone's instinct and start
there.
If you're that strong andyou're, and why you know, you
think A or B is better, ifthat's you know, or if we should
say yes to this or no, you know, whatever the decision might be
(18:45):
, let's start there, becausewhat's behind that is a whole
load of clues on my ability andeven someone's own ability, like
it's like kind of stepping backand thinking what it feels,
just strongly.
Well, let me go back to wherewe are now with this new product
or this new marketing campaignand let's look at where we are
with it and where is the gapbetween the two?
(19:06):
And as far as data goes, I mean, I think it depends what the
data source is.
I'm not an anti-data person,but I think it depends on what
the data source is.
You know, I think if there'sthat much of a disconnect
between the data and someone'sinstinct and if they're instinct
(19:27):
, once I dig like I personallydig into that's where I start,
feels very convicted and sound,and I hear elements of an
alluring message or what we callan alluring vibe like this.
They're going on and on aboutwhat they know, which is how
much easier that this is goingto make life for somebody, and
how the competitors are creatinga problem and they're convinced
(19:50):
that the way to go to market isto actually nullify a
competitor, which we wouldusually be a little bit watch
out about that.
You want to be careful.
You're basically giving awayimpressions for the competitor.
I think Subway once ran an adall about their freshness with
M's McDonald's M's.
(20:11):
That quickly was taken off themarket because you're
essentially just sellingMcDonald's.
She's Burger's right, like whenyou do that.
Anyway, I think it's a matterof 100% agree on the balance
piece, but you should never.
Instincts are where you shouldstart.
I especially feel so passionateabout this because I spent so
(20:32):
much time in the corporate worldworking with people on
innovation teams and marketingteams, specifically consumer
insight specialists likemarketing researchers like me,
who are knee deep with consumers.
Right, they are hearing theirpains, seeing what their life
looks like, and then they arethe ones that are seeing the
(20:54):
disconnect between that and thenwhat the company feels like
they need to do.
We need to get this out in themarket because we need to catch
up with the competitor.
We can't do it this way, wehave to do it that way, and
there's often a conflict.
And so I can't tell you thenumber of times I've gotten on a
phone call with a client andthey're excited about a new idea
(21:15):
and they tell me about the idea.
We do our initial session, wereview the idea, we talk about
the game plan for what we needto do to fill in any gaps that
they have as far as moving tothe next stage with any research
they need, and, lo and behold,they go off and work with the
team, and then I come back andsay all right, here's the here's
, we've put it into a concept.
(21:36):
This is a concept.
In the corporate world isessentially like a customer
pitch.
Right, you're putting it on apiece of paper so that you could
serve it up to people and seehow they'd react to it.
And I'm like where did thatgood idea go?
What is this?
It's all watered down.
There's like, instead of onespecific problem, one kind of
prime customer mindset, there'slike 15 things in there.
(21:56):
They have no idea how it'sgoing to go to market at their
slapping a price on it.
I'm like whoa, it's kind ofjumping from early to all the
way over here and I don't know.
I mean, obviously there arelimitations and you can't ignore
them in terms of how theexecution is everything right In
(22:18):
terms of how you go to marketif you've got this idea.
I've talked to many startups,where one in particular comes to
mind, where this really amazingidea for seniors and their
family isn't there Caregivers,their kids to help them.
The idea was to augmentsomeone's television so they
(22:40):
could.
You know, an older person who'snot had a lot of tech
experience isn't really savvy onsmartphones, but you could
augment their televisions sothey could video, talk on video
on their TV without having to doanything, you know, with their
loved ones.
And he was so passionate aboutthis idea because he had
experienced this problem.
And I've been talking with alot of people whose parents are
(23:02):
aging and they can't get overthere enough and they can't see
them enough, but they can't getthem to use FaceTime and all the
things, and it was just.
It was just such a poignant,worthy problem to go after.
But you know, then he's meetingwith investors and they want an
ability that the marketing justfeels too grandiose.
You know, like, oh my gosh, themarketing plan, how maybe you
(23:22):
should sell this to nursinghomes instead, you know, and
have them put it in thepatients' rooms.
And you know, okay, well, thehardware issues started coming
into play and there were realissues like there's the hardware
we have to make for this, wecan't get it in time.
So then it becomes like I hadthis problem I wanted to solve
and I knew I validated the heckout of it.
I mean, have people cryingtelling me they want this thing
(23:44):
right, like, but then how I needto take it to market to satisfy
the people who are going toinvest in this and how I need to
retool the product based on thehardware limitations pretty
much change what this could be.
So it's like, instead of givingup, you have to think about all
right, could there be a newgo-to-market model?
And if it's going to be sellingto nursing homes now you got to
go.
What's in it for them, right?
(24:05):
Like no, there's much what's init for, you know, the daughter
or son of their aging parentwho's sitting alone in their
house anymore.
It's now what's in it for theperson in the nursing home who
wants to buy this, you know?
So just, I think, an examplethat's a little bit veering away
(24:26):
from your question around dataversus gut, but I think that
particular story came to mindbecause I was thinking about
what happens to so many goodideas when they go into market
as the execution.
There are real blockers that canoccur and you always have to go
back to your story that you'vestarted with.
(24:49):
If I call it a story script inthe story-run world, they call
it the long-form brand script,the short version of that.
Whatever it is that you call it, we have many clients who call
it a manifesto.
But the pain and gain storywhat our solution will do for
somebody in a pretty specificand poignant situation to get
(25:14):
them to transition to success.
If you have that script in hand, and that's what you're
marching forward with, you haveto recognize when you have to
either go back to the story andfind a new one or you have to
find a way to make your launchplan match what it is, your
(25:39):
ideal customer, the mindsetyou're going after, the specific
problem that you're solving.
If you want to stay convictedon that path, then it may be
that it's a consumer product orconsumer offering and not B2B
and not digital.
It starts small before you gobig.
How grassroots and small canyou go into a really small test
(25:59):
market?
It's not like you're trying toraise money from investors, but
this has to be a stepwiseprocess.
Going DTC marketing is very,very expensive.
You're not going to go fromprototype to advertising during
money in a football overnight.
It's usually a very stepwisetype of go-to-market plan.
(26:22):
Those are the ones that succeed.
I mean, it's one of the biggestbrands that feel like they have
a huge, wide, expanded productline and they're for everybody
today started in a very, veryhyper focused, specific,
grassroots, door-to-doors weused to say type of launch plan.
Yeti is still my favoriteexample, tina's like.
(26:45):
I've heard this story but I loveit.
These two guys were twobrothers, son of an angler,
their professional fishermen.
It's called an angler.
I've learned in my outdoorsyyears they would have coolers
that they put their fish andtheir drinks in, but they would
beat those coolers up.
There's a picture online of oneof the brothers standing
(27:08):
casting on a cooler.
They just were like their dad,I think.
He built boats and there wasthe material that was used for
boats.
I'm giving the story right asfar as where the material came
from.
They knew that they could makea better cooler that would keep
things cold but also be really,really durable and would stand
(27:29):
up to a day out on the boat.
The product that's in everysoccer mom's hand in America and
every party on every boat andevery backyard today started as
one product, going after onespecific problem, which is not
even keeping things cold.
(27:49):
It was durability, this thingsuper durable.
Look how we can beat the heckout of it.
Stand on all these things.
Who did they talk to?
Initially?
They talked to the very samepeople they knew would feel
their pay and wish for otherfishermen, fisher women and
outdoors people.
I think it took years beforethis was in every REI and that
(28:12):
sort of thing.
There's a lot of good storiesout there.
There's no such thing as anovernight sensation.
Now, with the digital world, Ithink when that happens, or
seemingly happens, it's veryserendipitous.
But these launches that becomea lot of things for a lot of
different kinds of peopletypically start with one person
(28:33):
or one very hyper focused typeof problem that they knew they
could solve, that they werepassionate about solving.
The initial launch plan wasvery grassroots, was not
immediately jumping to, goingtoo broad.
What we're helping people do isnot water down their product
(28:56):
concept before they go intomarkets, that they're not
fiddling to death with newmessaging and split testing with
real live people and real liveplatforms spending real live
advertising money.
You're not going to get itperfect before you go live and
you certainly your first productis not every product you'll
have, but feel like you got tolove it before you launch it,
(29:18):
feel like you've nailed it.
That feeling one of thequestions, tina, you sent me
that you might ask today you hadasked about how do you know?
You know when you take a test,the standard, like whether it's
the ACT or whatever test whereit's a standardized questions.
I always think back to liketaking a math question on maybe
(29:40):
the ACT and you know when youknow you got it right.
You know that feeling oh yeah,it's C, I know it's C.
That feeling you aren't 100%sure you might be.
I mean there are times when youmight be.
You just know you've nailed it.
It's that feeling right.
It's not about perfection, it'snot about the only thing you'll
(30:02):
ever launch into the market,but it's that feeling.
Pia Silva she's amazing.
She wrote the book Bad AsherBrand.
How I stumbled across her yearsago.
I've worked with her.
She's been a mentor and abusiness coach for me.
She's awesome.
She talks about it feeling likeyour favorite pair of jeans,
(30:22):
like when you know.
You know Mainly talking aboutthe kind of messaging and
knowing your ideal customertarget and getting real niche
with your message.
She always says like yourfavorite pair of jeans.
That's how it should feel.
It's hard to feel that way withjust numbers.
You've got to go beyond thenumbers.
Tina Smith (30:38):
I'm curious though, like with your experience with
these massive companies, becauseI see this, you know we're in
the natural products business.
I see this all the time withbrands that have been really
successful with a product.
It could just be kind of like astandard product, like a
protein powder or something likethat.
Then they do really well withit.
They're like oh well, let'sjust add new versions of the
(31:00):
same product.
We'll just sprinkle dust,whatever extra things, like oh,
this is a stress protein thatdoesn't exist.
But it's like let's try to hitthese trendy stress or hydration
or weight loss or whatever.
It doesn't really alter theproduct all that much.
I'm curious what the processlooks like for some of these
(31:21):
larger companies where theymaybe feel like they have that
like well, we need to hit thesetrendy things, even if it's not
necessarily an effective product.
How hard is it to stop thattrain from the time of like oh,
we have this idea, let's justreformulate ever so slightly to
(31:42):
create this new product.
Then they bring it to market.
In our case, where we work witha lot of retailers and they're
just like this is crap, we don'twant to sell this.
It's like stick with what youknow.
You had a really great flagshipproduct and now you're just
adding stuff that doesn't needto be there and trying to be
(32:03):
something that you're not.
I'm just curious is it almostbetter for them to go to market,
even if they have, like poorresearch, once they've kind of
started that process of theformulation, the packaging?
I know it's expensive is itbetter to take it to market and
let it fail once it gets thereor to stop it in its tracks?
Teri Hoffman (32:26):
Ooh, that's a loaded question.
I laughed initially.
I was like PTSD laughing, Ithink Gosh, in the bigger
company world there are oftentimes when the reason for
launching or extending so addingofferings or extending is to
(32:50):
actually satisfy the retailer.
It's for shelf space, it's formaking sure we stay ahead of the
competition.
That's often the reason andthat can go.
Bigger companies have theability to, of course, correct
pretty quickly or to recover, Iwould say, more easily than a
smaller company.
(33:10):
That's where, I would say, inthe situation where a retailer
is saying we don't need this,sometimes you have to learn the
hard way, unfortunately.
I want to save everybody fromthat.
We all do.
That's what we want to save ourclients from A couple of
sprints, easier said than donesometimes, when you have your
own thing, pitching the retailerbefore you make the thing would
(33:37):
be key.
Okay, right, like we have thisidea.
What we can do is and so thisis a common thing that we have
done with bigger companies thatI think could be really useful
as far as advice for smallercompanies that are emerging and
trying to grow would be creating, like, what we call a concept
(34:00):
or the idea, without creatingthe product, getting reactions
to it getting a validation fromconsumer excitement, right To be
able to show, to pitch that tothe retailer and doing your
diligence before you've gonethrough with the effort of all
the R&D right Like it often isthe reverse that happens.
Right, like the R&D no, they'reonto something, they've got
(34:23):
this formulation, they werepitched by some shop that has
some unique ingredient orsomething that they've like.
I mean, the exclusion would bewhen you truly do stumble onto
something that is technology oris an ingredient or is a
combination of ingredients thatyou know can solve a problem
that nobody else has been ableto crack the code right.
(34:46):
Or an example would be there'sa dog food brand called Badlands
Ranch.
It's actually Catherine Hegelwho was the actress on Grey's
Anatomy and she's a big animaladvocate, all about natural
foods and cooking and all thesethings that she's real
passionate about that.
(35:07):
And she has a farm in Utahsomewhere and they live on the
farm and cook all their own foodand live off the land mentality
right and is very passionateabout trying to feed our animals
something that is food that isless processed but recognizes
like it's not that easy to makemy dog's food or if it's all of
like farmer's dog and all theseawesome brands that are out
(35:28):
there.
Now it's frozen, so it's likecreates okay.
Well, what do I do when I haveto travel with my dog?
And now I got to let it fall,or it's like I got to keep it
cold, so her?
If you go to their website, lookat their messaging for their
product.
Pretty quick into the messagingyou'll find them talking about
(35:49):
technology, which is not usuallywhat we advise.
Like, people don't want to hearall about your brand and all
about what it does and all aboutthe science, but in this case
they're actually come up to you.
It's like hey, we've come upwith a way to slow cook the food
so that we can still make itdry, so that it's still easy,
just like we know you want it,but also retains a lot very
(36:09):
minimally processed.
So it's just an example wherewe know this is a pain point.
Like we know, people wish theyhad a better solution than
feeding dry dog food and theyfeel guilty about doing it.
But it's expensive and not easyto go to all natural dog food.
So is there a middle ground?
(36:30):
And the technology itselfspeaks volumes, even if it's
like all you have to do is tellme about this technology and I'm
like, yay, it feels believable.
So in that case, because that'sa good, that's a strategy
that's rare, I think, that works.
That's rarely the way thesebrands that are adding new
products, are expanding or etcetera, like to lead with the
(36:53):
science, the ingredient or thetapping into a trend.
These are be skeptical aboutthat Anytime that you know
you're following a trend oryou're just throwing in an
ingredient that sounds trendy,just so you can have another
product on the shelf.
If it's not truly tapping intoa problem that's unsolved, maybe
(37:16):
hold.
Amanda Ballard (37:17):
Yeah, terri, this reminds me of you said
earlier.
The people closest to thecustomer are the ones who have
the hunch that you shoulddefinitely pay attention to and
in our world.
So we work with naturalproducts retailers and natural
products manufacturers, and whatkeeps coming up over and over
(37:38):
again is this advice of you usethe independent retailers, with
these small audiences who arevery connected to their local
community, who stand in theaisles and consult with their
clients.
You use those as test markets.
They get all your new ideas andyou can even come and just have
some training with theiremployees and you'll get
(38:00):
feedback before you launch aproduct or before you try
something new.
So there's a number of thingslike there's a wealth of
information and all that you'vebrought to the table.
And it just reminds me over andover again, both for the
retailer owner, because to betalking to the people who are
talking to the customers.
A lot of times the retail owneris the person on the floor, but
(38:23):
many times they've got a lot ofemployees who are interacting
with their customers Perfecttime to flow to new idea.
If you're going to bring a newproduct into the store, the
people who are walking thoseaisles will know if people in
that community are going to beexcited about that thing.
They've heard about all theproblems that you're still not
(38:44):
able to solve yet, so they'rethe people that you can be
talking to to get that feedback.
And the same with themanufacturers.
If you've got a distributor inthe area and you're thinking
about a new idea, great time tohave conversations with the
people who are working thosefloors.
That is closest to the customer.
Teri Hoffman (39:02):
Oh yeah, 100%.
And that reminded me of aproject that I worked on, gosh,
a few years ago, one of myfavorite clients.
They actually make cat litter.
It's called World's Best CatLitter, by the way.
They're very special people,the very special products, so
there's a plug for them.
It's all natural cat litter andthey're building the brand,
(39:23):
looking for new ways to buildthe brand but also extend the
brand and create newformulations, that sort of thing
.
And we did some work at theearly stage of a new initiative
and the sales team was involvedand it was such a reminder that
(39:44):
these people are out talking andthey were talking like the feed
stores.
They had all these insights, aswe like to call it.
I think insights come from us,not from data, but they were.
It was so insightful because ofjust the things that they would
say they've heard from beingout on the floor talking to
their customers and thenhappening upon somebody shopping
the cat litter aisle and thenthey're talking to them and then
(40:06):
the person shelt to shock inthe cell chimes in and it was
that moment when I realized,gosh, we have to get this is
like grassroots right here.
Right, you can get feedback ifyou're already on to If you're
looking for a new way, if you'rekind of in the more early stage
of like I want to just learnmore about my customers.
(40:27):
My gosh read reviews, find afew friends who've used your
product.
Right, go talk to them,especially, like you said.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's anadvantage in this space that
they have, whether it's theretailer, the manufacturer,
there's such a tightrelationship with these more
boutique, local, smallerdistribution channels because
(40:48):
there's just interactionhappening.
And I've always said thesalespeople, the big companies
marketing in sales, it's sort oflike you know, they feel like
they're supposed to be alignedbut they're often feel like
they're working at each othersometimes and I get it.
But, like the sales folks areout there, like you said,
(41:10):
they're out there on the groundtalking with people while things
are being bought and sold andgosh customers asking questions.
I mean what an opportunity,right, like when people are like
asking questions because theycan't find something or they
think something's not availablethat they think they want when
it really is.
I mean that's a big clue,that's a big opportunity if,
like all these brands thinkthey're communicating something
(41:33):
and consumers don't think theycan find that anywhere.
Amanda Ballard (41:36):
Yeah, Well, terry, this has been great, like
you've given so many nuggetsfor people to use to launch new
products.
But really, I mean, I feel likethe heart of this interview has
been around staying in touchwith your customer, because I
think that's where the gutfeeling comes from is that
(41:57):
interaction, the conversationsand hearing feedback, because
you're right, products don'tmake it if you're not solving a
problem, and the only way you'regoing to know what problems are
out there is personalexperience and feedback from
other people.
So I love all the informationthat you've given today and I
know that people are going to beable to use it to sell more
(42:19):
product in their stores andlaunch new products and sort of
innovate in their markets in away that is less expensive for
some of our smaller companies.
You don't need all this data.
Data is great, don't ignore it,but you don't necessarily need
it if you're in touch with yourcustomer, and I think that's a
beautiful thing.
(42:39):
So we always ask our podcastguests the same questions to end
the interview.
Oh gosh, yes, amanda, do youwant to do that, or you?
Tina Smith (42:53):
want me to.
Yeah, I'm watching Loaded, I'mready to go, all right, okay.
So, terri, who do you like tofollow to kind of stay up to
date with all things marketingand kind of stay at the top of
your game?
Teri Hoffman (43:07):
Oh, wow, of course , donald Miller, jj Peterson,
the story of Brown folks, I youknow it was pretty life-changing
when I stumbled upon, actually,somebody locally recommended, I
read, building a story brand,when I was actually launching my
(43:28):
own company, because it's hardto do you know create, clarify,
you know figure out your ownmessaging and your own offers
for yourself.
And so I realized reallyquickly oh my gosh, this is so
practical.
Well, of course, it's based ona 2,000-year-old, proven
framework, a stinkin' good story, right?
So that is a big one for me.
(43:49):
Gosh, there are so many Forbehavioral like, there is a book
called Influence, which I thinkis the foundation of persuasion
, influence, consumer behaviorby Rappacciadini, and he
recently launched a newsletteron LinkedIn.
(44:11):
I'm like, oh wow, look at this.
You know, I was just surprisedthat he did that and it's really
really good and it's one ofthose things where it's a lot of
social science experimentation,a lot of social experiments,
but they're very easy to like.
He'll do like a little slide.
You know, if you follow him onLinkedIn, a couple slides share,
(44:31):
you know, carousel, if you will.
And it's really easy to get thelesson from it and apply it
somewhere very distant from theactual experiment itself.
So those are probably my twofavorites.
I have a bunch my gosh.
Amanda Ballard (44:47):
Yeah, cialdini is one of the best.
So if you guys want to get thatbook, he's done several
presuasion.
And who's working with them?
Bass Wooters actually wrote abook called Online Influence and
I helped them do theirmarketing when they were first
launching that.
And now they've sort of broughtthese two brands together.
(45:09):
And that's Bass is thepractical guy.
He's from the Netherlands andhe is like out there running the
tests with his crew and thenbringing the data back and
Cialdini is talking about it.
So I think that was a perfectlike match.
Teri Hoffman (45:25):
And so far, oh, I didn't know that I have to check
it out.
I have a personal.
I was at a conference.
It was actually all aboutbehavioral science and he was
one of the speakers.
I got to meet him.
He's just, he just has thisaura about him too.
He just feels like good people,person, right.
But he was talking aboutwriting his book Presuasion and
(45:48):
I'll never forget he said he puta picture of his grandchild or
grandchildren inside of what hewas writing because he wanted to
make sure what he created wouldbe something they'd be proud
about.
And I feel like I try toremember that all the time.
I mean, you have to.
Everybody wants to feel proudabout, they've had an impact on
(46:09):
in some way, even if no oneknows it.
But you right, like that youhad, you were the reason that
this went to market this way oryou helped do whatever it is,
and I thought that was so neattoo.
So I have an emotional likepull for him.
But yeah, his stuff is just.
There are many others right Outthere that are good reads, but
there's a problem with my twofavorite.
(46:30):
I could go on and on on thisquestion.
I do I do a lot of skimming.
I'll tell you I'm a big doer,probably to a fault.
So I, you know, I'll get into abook and my brain's like, get
something, you need all this.
As soon as I get I'm like, oh,I'm going to try that, I'm going
to try a new idea.
And then it's like, oh, putthat on the shelf, let me try a
new one.
I think another really good onejust it's a little bit outside
(46:51):
of the norm, I think, in themarketing world is Hit Makers by
Derek Thompson.
He's actually a writer for theAtlantic and it's all about you
know why things go pop, whatmakes, what makes, what really
makes things go viral.
You know what makes big ideastake off, and it's called Hit
Makers.
It's really, really it's just.
(47:13):
It's just.
It's not for somebody who'slooking for.
Give me 10 examples and 10exact tips to use today.
It's more about like, here'swhat really goes on in terms of
why things take off, why newideas take off.
He talks about how modern music, you know, is all based on the
same chords and you know,there's something subtly
(47:34):
familiar.
There's newness and subtlefamiliarity and the balance of
that.
So it's a really good one too,especially somebody who's
thinking about growing theirbrand and trying to attract
customers quickly with a reallystrong message, or wanting to
put a new product into themarketplace, or sell a new
product right.
Like retailers, care too aboutmessaging and so forth.
Tina Smith (47:55):
So awesome.
What do you think is the singlebiggest decision you have made
in your career that's led toyour success?
Amanda Ballard (48:07):
No pressure, just the single biggest.
Teri Hoffman (48:09):
Yeah, I like that.
Amanda Ballard (48:15):
I wrote these questions by the way, this is
not.
Teri Hoffman (48:18):
Yeah, tina, I get it, don't shoot the mess here.
Okay, decision.
Okay, there's a few.
I was trying to decide.
There are like three differentstories.
Interestingly, they all tieinto two things One, feeling
(48:41):
pulled to work with somebody whoI sense could teach me a lot,
who's moving and do or couldteach me a lot, or being able to
hack my way and try new things.
So making decisions to doeither of those two things and
walking away from taking theroad loss traveled, but I would
(49:02):
say probably the single biggestone was when I was working at
Ipsos, which is a big marketingresearch company I think it's
the second biggest in the worldnow.
I was there for 10 years and Iwas working on a business unit
and the company acquired a newbusiness unit or a new business
from another company and theycame in to pitch us because we
were kind of the generalists andthey were specialists and we
(49:23):
would need to pull them in oncertain projects and so forth.
And the person who runs thatbusiness his name is Jason Brown
.
He's now head of the clientorganization at Ipsos.
He was probably the firstperson that in my world of
(49:43):
designing, selling marketing anddoing marketing research who
really would talk from abusiness results first
standpoint and he was supercasual and just like there was
something about.
I'm like, wow, I could learnfrom this person.
I was really new in the industryat the time and I was really
(50:05):
attracted to this person who wastalking about business results
first.
I'll talk about design andgadgets and data and our
livelihood is designing and allthese things it was more about.
This is what the businesscontext is and the kind of
business strategy that we wantto.
It was all about results and Ijust had to go work for him.
(50:27):
I knew that and serendipitously, a job came up and I got on his
team and I jumped ship,probably earlier.
I was doing really, really wellin the job that I was in at the
time so well.
I was having a really amazingyear so well.
That became a little bit of aoh, you're poaching her from one
division to the other, but itwas like knowing I had to work
(50:48):
with that person and that jobwas kind of everything for where
I am now.
It gave me all of my ideas.
It taught me all thefoundational basics about
helping people really be moreabout good market strategy first
, research second.
So long went, a way to sayknowing I wanted to work for him
(51:08):
and then working for himbecause I'll never have a boss.
Everybody works for him saysthe same thing, so that was
amazing learning experience.
Amanda Ballard (51:17):
Well, I love that too, because, talking about
business context and what's thebusiness result of this, versus
just having a great idea,people come to us and say, hey,
I want a new website, and I'mlike, okay, maybe.
Teri Hoffman (51:33):
Right, oh gosh.
Amanda Ballard (51:34):
Right, because I don't know if it's going to
give you the business resultsthat you're looking for, but I
think it's a great goal, likewhat are we trying to accomplish
?
And then let's talk about thepath to get their website might
be the right thing.
So I love that.
I love it when marketers andthis is a big watch out, a big
red flag If your marketing teamthat you're going to is just
like fulfilling your requests orthey are not in touch with what
(51:59):
your business goals are or whatthe context is around, how you
can and kind of get therebecause of regulations or like
whatever it is that's contextualto your business, your
marketing team better be awareof it, because you can have a
new website and it can be areally great one and it might
not get you where you want to go.
Teri Hoffman (52:21):
Oh yeah, so great.
My world as well.
You know it's like you want togive them what they think they
want, but you know they needprobably something else.
So you need to get the contextfrom them and dig in a little.
But I just I've found ifthey're not willing to talk
through, like let me dig in withthem a little bit first, then
it's probably not the right fitfor what we do.
(52:42):
You know I need to have, I knowyou think this is what you need
, this is what you need me to dofor you.
I have found that, like, allthey need is for them to want to
have a session with me to letme dig in and ask questions.
And if they're open to that andthey're excited about sharing
context, I usually know that Ican help them.
See that it's their idea to notimmediately jump into building
(53:06):
the website or, in my world,immediately jumping into the
research or immediately, youknow, whatever it is.
Yeah, they need to want to.
I mean, I'm sure there aresituations when people look I've
written the copy, tina, I wantthis website bill, right.
Like, maybe there's that rarecase, but I think it's pretty
rare, right.
Amanda Ballard (53:24):
Yeah Well, and I do think some hesitation around
sharing some of thatinformation from my perspective
has been we've done this amillion times, like sometimes I
think that with businesscoaching, if you make me write
one more vision or missionstatement, or like I have to map
out what my three year plan isone more time, what I really
(53:45):
needed someone to get in thetrenches with me and help me get
things done.
I think that's some hesitationbecause they've been burned in
the past by people who gothrough this long drawn out
process.
They've done it a million times.
It's gotten them nowhere.
So first red flag is thatyou're not asked.
Second red flag is it doesn'tmatter what you say, they're
still going to offer you awebsite or like whatever it is.
(54:06):
But I understand hesitationsometimes with, like going
through this rigorous processagain.
Tina Smith (54:12):
Yeah.
So, terry, what do you think issome low hanging fruit that
would give people in the naturalproducts industry some quick
wins in their businesses?
Teri Hoffman (54:24):
Well gosh, tina already mentioned one, which is,
if you haven't, If you haven'ttalked with users, customers
recently talk to a few.
It's so stupidly simple A fewconversations.
Read reviews.
(54:44):
I know it might sound silly tomany business owners, because
they business owners andfounders do tend to do these
things more so than you know.
A bigger company got otherthings going on and you start
lose touch with those types ofactivities.
But like simple right, likejust conversations.
Don't even worry about thestructure of the conversation.
(55:06):
You know, if it's really justwant to know how you're doing,
have some conversations.
That, to me, is the lowest oflow hanging fruit there is I've
worked with.
So I come from a big corporateland that I spent several years
working with startups as well.
When I started my companyintentionally, you know, and
I'll never forget.
(55:28):
A guy had an initial kickoffsession with him and he had a
new product that was already hisfirst version, was already in
the market and had sold.
He was selling.
He wanted to improve it, buildit out, scale it, all those
things.
Before he did that, he wantedto make sure he had really
nailed what he was going toscale.
And one of the first things hesaid to me is like he knew that
I have, you know, doing theresearch is a big part of my
(55:49):
livelihood and expertise and Icome from you know, corporate
world.
And he said it was almost likeI was going to tell you I
haven't done much research.
He was almost like embarrassedbecause he felt like he hadn't
done the right, all the valid,all the things that you're
supposed to do that we probablydo over here in the corporate
world, that he just he just wentfor it as a founder and I said,
(56:11):
okay, well, let's talk a littlebit about your product, what
you know now.
And he started telling me aboutthis hunch, obviously the
theory that he has that hethinks it's an umbrella.
It's a.
It's actually a huge umbrellathat's called Humbra that you
put on the back of a truck thatis really sturdy and creates
shade.
Okay, and he.
This came upon him as he wasout in the Death Valley desert
(56:35):
under the sun baking and hecouldn't get enough shade under
the tent or the pop of tent thathe had.
So he had said, like I reallythink the problem that I'm
really solving is the wind, it'ssturdy, it's about shade, I
think it's about sturdy.
I was like, well, how do youknow this?
He said, well, well, first Ilooked at my sales and then I
looked at where they were comingfrom and they just happened to
be coming from like windy areas.
(56:56):
So your question about data,that would be a good, that would
be a clue, right?
Data should be about clues andsignals and not proof, right?
I'm like, oh, that that's agood theory, right?
And then he said, then he says,keep in mind, he tells me that
he has not done any.
I've really not done any,really, customer, I really just
went for it, I haven't done muchresearch.
(57:16):
I said, okay, well, and then Isaid what else?
How else do you know that?
And he said, well, when Italked to all the customers, I'm
like, wait, wait, wait, maybe,and talk to all of them, he was,
yeah, I call every singlecustomer that has bought my
product and I just basically, hewas basically journey mapping,
right, he was asking them, just,you know, hey, how'd you hear
about this Kind of what, whatyou're experienced so far?
I mean, I'm like can I hire youto do our research for us?
(57:39):
You know, I was like can I juststop you for a second and let
you know that please don'tassume what you're doing is
research, right, like you aredoing the things to keep in
touch with making sure yourcustomers and their needs and
making sure you're solving theright problem.
And before you go big with thisthing, wanting to really nail a
(58:02):
problem that you suspect is alittle different than what you
started out with, I just, I wasso like that's a long-winded
story, I'll have to figure itout.
I edit this one down.
Maybe we'll retake it becauseit's a good one.
I was like he's telling me thathe doesn't do any research and
then feeling kind of embarrassedby it.
And then he proceeds to tell mehe talks to every customer and I
thought if I could get everyone of my big clients to talk to
one, to want to talk to one,you know, just go talk to one
(58:25):
you know, wow.
Tina Smith (58:28):
So that's awesome.
Well, thank you so much foryour time, terri.
If people want to get in touchwith you or, you know, do a
consultation with you, how wouldthey get in touch with you?
Teri Hoffman (58:38):
Yeah, gohunchcom is our website.
There is a button right on thehomepage to book a call.
So that's the first.
That's where we always start,just to hear a little bit about
where you are.
If we can help you always getsomething out of that call,
because we will review whateveryou have at the moment whether
it is a working idea, whetherit's an established brand
message.
(58:58):
We'll review it together andgive you some tips right on that
call.
So that's the first step.
My email is terri T-E-R-I one Rat gohunchcom.
I had to make the emphasisabout the one R.
It's like a joke with myfriends and I.
You know everybody puts two Rsin it and I have to.
Nobody on this podcast knowsabout that inside joke, but they
(59:22):
have now they do, it might puta Y on it too.
Oh listen, that's the boyversion.
Terri Bradshaw shirters.
Amanda Ballard (59:32):
Very funny.
Yeah, thanks so much, Terri,for being here and doing this,
and we'll have links to yourwebsite and your email address
in our show notes so that peoplecan find you easily.
And if you're looking for somesort of guerrilla marketing
research, I think Terri's agreat option to go with.
(59:54):
So book a consult and learn alot of things about whether or
not your hunch with yourcustomers is right.
Teri Hoffman (01:00:04):
Aw, thank you, it's been super fun.
Thank you for having me on.
Tina Smith (01:00:08):
Thanks so much for listening to the Natural
Products Marketer podcast.
We hope you found this episodeto be super helpful.
Make sure you check out theshow notes for any of those
valuable resources that wementioned on today's episode.
Amanda Ballard (01:00:19):
And, before you go, we would love for you to
give us a review.
Follow, like and subscribe onApple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube
or wherever you're listeningtoday, and make sure you join us
for our next episode, where wegive you more marketing tips so
that you can reach more peopleand change more lives.
Big companies do a lot of this work.
It's called simulated test,marketing concept testing,
forecasting sales for newlaunches.
They do a lot of pre-launchwork to really try to prove it
out before they go to market.
For two reasons.
One is big investment just likeanybody would try to validate
their idea from a garage fiddleor founder working on a new
invention to big, huge companies.
(00:22):
But the reason big companieshave to rely so much on that
type of research before theylaunch is primarily because
Welcome to the Natural ProductsMarketer podcast.
Tina Smith (00:37):
I'm Tina and I'm Amanda, and we're here to make
marketing easier for naturalproducts businesses, so you can
reach more people and changemore lives.
Amanda Ballard (00:49):
So, Terry, I'm excited to have you on the
podcast because you went throughthe whole story brand training
process around the same timethat I did and that's where we
got to meet.
So I know that you know abouthow to tell stories to help
market products and services,which is awesome, and at the
same time, you are a data geek.
(01:09):
So you started a company arounddata research and whether or
not that you need to use it,whether or not it works well.
So tell us your story aboutstarting your company, what led
you to do that and what led youto decide to get into the field
of marketing as well.
Teri Hoffman (01:28):
Yeah Well, my career has primarily been yes,
formally in marketing research,primarily in, I'd say, either
innovation or renovation, so newproducts going to market, or
revamping the brand message, soclients who have new ideas in
either realm and primarily bigcorporate lands.
(01:50):
So I've worked in big companies.
I've worked in big servicecompanies doing marketing
research to go to marketstrategy, which is a lot of
consumer testing along the way.
So marketing research hasreally been what would be my
primary kind of specialization,if you will.
As far as the data geek part,using data that comes from
(02:11):
potential customers, gettingfeedback, doing research with
customers to try to hone andrefine and prove out new ideas
Before they go to market, andalso, once they go into market,
it's seeing how they're doing,course correcting that sort of
thing.
So that's what I've always done.
For about 10 years, I worked ina big research company
(02:32):
specializing in new productlaunches and we had a model that
we would use that would includeinputs from potential customers
.
So we get feedback to new ideasalong the way of developing
them, as well as inputs abouthow you're going to go to market
.
So what kind of marketing areyou going to do?
(02:52):
Are you going to advertise ornot?
Are you going to be on TV ornot?
Where will this be sold?
All those things impact howmany you'll sell and if you'll
sell as many as you're hoping.
So big companies do a lot ofthis work.
It's called simulated test,marketing, concept testing,
forecasting sales for newlaunches.
They do a lot of pre-launchwork to really try to prove it
(03:13):
out before they go to market.
For two reasons.
One is it's a big investment,just like anybody would try to
validate their idea, from agarage fiddler founder working
on a new invention to big, hugecompanies.
But the reason big companieshave to rely so much on that
type of research before theylaunch is primarily because it's
(03:35):
not easy to prototype.
It can cost millions of dollarsto create a tangible thing to
see if people will buy it.
So we have to try to figure outcan we attract people to this?
Do we have the right offer?
Do we have the right features?
Do we have the right message?
Get it as tight as we can.
And we have to prove out to themoneyholders that this thing is
(03:57):
going to at least meet ourexpectations for what we need to
pay back our investment.
So that's what big companies doand that's kind of work I did.
It's primarily 20 years, but 10of my years were really really
specialized in that arena and wehad all the rigorous approaches
.
We did what you call concepttesting, which in the startup
world is more like ideavalidation, so getting feedback
(04:20):
from potential customers.
Users want to have a prototype.
But we did this at a much morescaled level Lots of big sample
sizes with lots of people in ourresearch and we have very
proven out, accurate, very proud, very accurate ability to
(04:40):
predict sales, down to how manyproducts you'll sell in year one
.
So we had to constantly refineour models and break them apart
and see if they're wrong andthat sort of thing.
So that taught me a lot aboutlaunches, but nonetheless.
So I worked.
We're all about the rigor, but Ialways loved the little things
and the nuances you get fromactually talking directly to
(05:01):
potential customers or actualcustomers, the little things
they'd say, the context of howthey use a product.
I mean there's so much you canlearn just from having a few
conversations and that wasalways more exciting to me than
the big numbers and forecastingthe sales and putting the sales
in front of the CEO and gettingeverybody to buy and to launch a
(05:22):
new product.
So that was kind of how Ialways felt.
So I always liked the morenuanced part of marketing
research that we do, butnonetheless we were all about
rigor.
So we did all the things forabout a year.
For just to back up a little bit, there was a particular project
I worked on with Procter Gamblefor the Fabrice brand.
Fabrice was on its way tobecoming a billion dollar brand.
(05:44):
It was hot and growing and theywere looking for new products
to launch for that brand.
And there was a particularAirFresher project that they
were working on.
That really was different fromwhat they're used to launching
into the market.
It was more expensive, it wasbig, it did all these, it was a
cool gadget and we did all theresearch and it proved it.
On paper it looked great.
We did all the concept testing.
(06:06):
We passed all of our metricsand benchmarks and thresholds.
We did the sales forecast.
Everything looked good on paper, right, but I just could tell
something wasn't right.
This once good idea felt likeit was veering onto the path to
market.
That just didn't feel right forthe idea and I could get into
all the nitty-gritty about it.
(06:26):
But long story short is it wasone of the most epic flops in
the history of the company.
I was getting ready to run a 5Kwith a good friend of mine who
worked at P&G he worked on theFebreze brand or in the same
division and he kind of made ajoke.
Hey, your name came up in ameeting the other day.
I'm like, oh really.
He's like yeah, they said tofire you.
(06:47):
Like well, that's not funny,chuck.
He said yeah, yeah, you knowthat debacle.
Febreze said stories.
He said they asked whatconsultants, what's your
research supplier, pass thisthing?
Who said we should take this tomarket?
Fire them right.
And I'm thinking something isbroken about our process,
because I could tell this thingwas going in the market.
(07:08):
All wrong, it was just thechannel it was going into.
The idea that it used to bebecame something else just
didn't feel right.
But I didn't have anyammunition at all in my hands
from the research, no signals orclues.
So I went back and dug it tothe research, which we had to do
anyway as part of our process,to really prove out our fix.
(07:30):
Where we missed right Wassomething that we were
responsible to do.
But I was also super hungry todig in, because that's why I
named my company now Hunch.
Since the first time I reallyrealized, gosh, if you have a
hunch, you have to figure out away to explore it, follow it,
hone it right, not ignore it.
All the signs were there.
Once I dug into more of what wewould call the color commentary
(07:53):
or the qualitative, open-ended,contextual stuff, like the
conversational type of data fromthe consumers that were
participants in our research wasso telling.
All the little clues andsignals were there.
They were all there.
This was a very bulky product,right.
So that was coming up.
(08:14):
It's like, well, I'd ratherjust let a candle At the time
that Shania Twain, the countrymusic singer, was going to be a
spokesperson for the product andit looked like a CD player at
the time, the old-style CDplayer, and so people were
saying, oh, it's a play music.
It's all the little signals ofthe distraction, confusion that
(08:35):
you could expect one wouldexperience the first time they
encounter this new product, thenew message for this new product
, were there, but we didn'tbring them to surface, nor did
we have good techniques to helpus really bring those things to
the surface.
They were the fluffy stuff,right.
All the hardcore numbers lookedgood and this could happen.
I mean, the more new to theworld or different or abstract
(08:58):
the thing is that you're workingon.
If it's a marketing message ora product to put in the market,
the harder it is to rely ontraditional methods of research.
Talk with customers to getfeedback.
It's the harder it is to dotraditional research if you will
, or trust it at its face value.
So, anyway, that debacle, as Ilike to call it, really led me
(09:18):
on a quest to get beyond onlylooking at the hard numbers, the
quantitative data or thestandard metrics, as we say in
the corporate world.
There's got to be a better way.
And it also felt likeoverdubbed, and I've felt this
for years working on thecorporate side of the fence and
(09:40):
the product, innovation andmarketing.
We do so much research and thelittle things are right in front
of us and they really are bestrealized just by talking, to
hearing natural words frompotential customers, from your
actual customers.
The hard part is you can't justtalk to a few people sometimes
(10:00):
and feel confident that you'reon the right track or you have
the right version, and that'swhere all the more higher sample
size split testing comes intoplay.
Then you start testing lots andlots of things and relying a
little too much on the research.
So I've really spent the last 10years studying launches in
parallel to doing marketingresearch, go to market strategy
(10:21):
with clients like crazy, becauseI just was so passionate about
finding the framework, if youwill, or the ingredients of a
really successful launch whichled me in the latter.
I guess the last 10 years spenta lot of time working on new
campaigns, new messaging forestablished brands that want to
(10:45):
reboot the foundational storythat would feed into a new
advertisement, and all the sameprinciples apply for trying to
really nail that core story ofwhat this thing will do for the
customer and then to work thatinto the messaging and the offer
.
But really it's that story ofdoing all the rigorous research
(11:05):
and still something going tomarket pretty all wrong and you
can't just blame the research.
But it's in part like leaninginto, I would argue, too much
research, too much rigor is, Iwould say, I would say with full
authority a bigger risk thanjust doing going and talking to
(11:28):
friends and family and a fewpeople when you're working on a
new idea.
I say your better bet is tofollow your instincts, not
ignore them, not ignore gettingfeedback and getting input when
you're working on something new.
But the rigorous stuff Icouldn't stand behind it anymore
, which is why I went LMIN.
Amanda Ballard (11:50):
So when you're doing research for these new
product launches or a rebrand orreboot, are you talking to
customers every time Like, whatis this?
You're saying that data isgreat, but sometimes it's not
enough, or sometimes you justhave a gut feeling that things
are wrong.
What's your process around thishunch?
Teri Hoffman (12:12):
Yes.
So definitely talking witheither potential customers or
current customers depends on thesituation or users.
If you have already at least abasic version of what you want,
if it's a product developmentinitiative and you have a
prototype or something in thestartup world they call it MVP,
(12:32):
a minimally viable product, it'ssomething that you can put in
the hands of people to see ifthey'll buy it, to see if they
like it, just help you refine it.
So in any of those scenarioswhether you're in the early
stage of I have, I know I wantto do marketing, do advertising,
or I know I want to revise mymessaging, or I have a new
(12:53):
product offer or new product Inany of those scenarios we
certainly are I would never saydon't, ever test it out and try
to refine and work, do someresearch along the way.
And just I would never advocategoing straight to market and
just seeing what happens.
I've never talked with anyonewho has done that and been
(13:13):
successful.
In fact, people who claimthat's what they've done when
you dig in, they've actuallydone quite a bit of early stage
validation, refinement bytalking with people, using,
getting reactions to theirinitial idea, kind of refining
it, getting reactions to theirinitial product.
So our process is essentiallyit's very simple, like we are
(13:36):
going to my company.
We start with ideas, so we comein when someone has an idea for
any of those scenarios.
Let's call it a product, a newproduct offering, and they're
either sure or not sure of oneof two things.
The key authority points areelements, the lead, the core
(14:00):
idea itself and how they woulddescribe that in one line, or
the customer story, which iswhat's the problem.
And then what's this, what'sthe we call it the pain to gain
script.
So it's similar to a one linerright and in the story around
world, where it's like there's aproblem in the way of something
(14:20):
somebody wants right and oursolution is going to remove that
.
So if you're not, whereveryou're unsure is where we start.
But we always start with whatwe call a Hunch Lab, which is
essentially I want to hear theorange and story behind this
idea, because there's always alot of really good clues in that
(14:44):
story.
Oftentimes they have been alittle bit forgotten or muddied,
because once you start gettinginto moving toward going to
market, a lot, one idea becomesmany and you're getting a lot of
advice.
Then you got to think about howyou're going to put in the
market and it's sort of likelet's get back to what.
Yeah, you fired up initially,so it's exploring.
You know what's your specialsauce, what's your plan, all the
(15:05):
things you about your brand oryour product, right, and then we
flip the script.
We come back In another session.
We really have found that youhave to iterate and not try to
do everything in one session.
Flip the script, call it apower hour this is just our
names for it and this is wherewe really go.
We're going to flip intocustomer mode.
Let's do a situation dump.
(15:27):
Let's think of all thesituations that would prime
somebody, make them, put them ina situation where they might
need a want or where you'regoing to have a good solution
for them, and then you know thatleads us to what we would call
a concept or a piece of stimulithat we can actually put in
front of potential customers andget their reactions.
(15:48):
When we get reactions, wealways do it.
It takes two minutes, it's aninitial reaction, it's
open-ended.
That's how we do it.
We have abandoned asking, a lotof asking why, asking if they'll
buy all these things.
Our big corporate clients stilllike to ask us questions, but we
can do it later in theinterview or in the survey,
whether it's a live interview ora survey.
But I always tell people whoare doing it themselves, like
(16:10):
lead with a pitch of some sortor an idea or the thing that you
want to get a reaction to,typically the piece of the, it's
either the idea or it's the wayin the positioning of the idea,
and oftentimes you shouldn'ttry to shove them too much
together and put too many thingsin front of people.
(16:31):
You don't want to get areaction and see where people go
with it on their own.
I mean, does it make themexcited?
Are they confused?
Are they silent?
Never a good sign.
You know if they are gettingtripped up.
That's always that lead.
You know.
You find out what's trippingthem up, right.
So, yes, we typically iteratewith we always iterate with
(16:51):
potential customers.
How many just depends on thesituation.
Could be a few, could be 150,it could be 300, depending on if
we have multiple versions.
Tina Smith (17:00):
But short answer.
So what advice do you have forpeople that are in these
decision-making?
You know roles where maybe theyare kind of lean one way or the
other, they're maybe hyperanalytical, where it's like I
need the data to tell me everylittle thing, or else I can't
pull the trigger.
Or they are the other side,where it's like if my gut says
(17:25):
no, like I will never change mymind.
How do you kind of balance thetwo?
Because it sounds like therehas to be a balance, like we
can't ignore data but we alsocan't fully rely on our hunches.
Teri Hoffman (17:42):
Yeah, well, I think you should ignore bad data
and flaw data, and that's whereI can help people, I think, if
you're hunched so I just lovethe word hunch, I like the
casualness of it, right but ifyou have an instinct, people who
have strong instincts about howto like, if it's a marketing
(18:04):
message or a product, like theyhave a strong instinct that
they're on to something right,like that is not just out of the
air and typically the piecethat people closest to I'd say,
the heart of the customerthey're trying to serve are the
closest to the problem they'retrying to solve.
The person who's been, you know, is close to the customer is
their instinct.
(18:25):
This is not some guess, right,like.
So my instinct is to lean intosomeone's instinct and start
there.
If you're that strong andyou're, and why you know, you
think A or B is better, ifthat's you know, or if we should
say yes to this or no, you know, whatever the decision might be
(18:45):
, let's start there, becausewhat's behind that is a whole
load of clues on my ability andeven someone's own ability, like
it's like kind of stepping backand thinking what it feels,
just strongly.
Well, let me go back to wherewe are now with this new product
or this new marketing campaignand let's look at where we are
with it and where is the gapbetween the two?
(19:06):
And as far as data goes, I mean, I think it depends what the
data source is.
I'm not an anti-data person,but I think it depends on what
the data source is.
You know, I think if there'sthat much of a disconnect
between the data and someone'sinstinct and if they're instinct
(19:27):
, once I dig like I personallydig into that's where I start,
feels very convicted and sound,and I hear elements of an
alluring message or what we callan alluring vibe like this.
They're going on and on aboutwhat they know, which is how
much easier that this is goingto make life for somebody, and
how the competitors are creatinga problem and they're convinced
(19:50):
that the way to go to market isto actually nullify a
competitor, which we wouldusually be a little bit watch
out about that.
You want to be careful.
You're basically giving awayimpressions for the competitor.
I think Subway once ran an adall about their freshness with
M's McDonald's M's.
(20:11):
That quickly was taken off themarket because you're
essentially just sellingMcDonald's.
She's Burger's right, like whenyou do that.
Anyway, I think it's a matterof 100% agree on the balance
piece, but you should never.
Instincts are where you shouldstart.
I especially feel so passionateabout this because I spent so
(20:32):
much time in the corporate worldworking with people on
innovation teams and marketingteams, specifically consumer
insight specialists likemarketing researchers like me,
who are knee deep with consumers.
Right, they are hearing theirpains, seeing what their life
looks like, and then they arethe ones that are seeing the
(20:54):
disconnect between that and thenwhat the company feels like
they need to do.
We need to get this out in themarket because we need to catch
up with the competitor.
We can't do it this way, wehave to do it that way, and
there's often a conflict.
And so I can't tell you thenumber of times I've gotten on a
phone call with a client andthey're excited about a new idea
(21:15):
and they tell me about the idea.
We do our initial session, wereview the idea, we talk about
the game plan for what we needto do to fill in any gaps that
they have as far as moving tothe next stage with any research
they need, and, lo and behold,they go off and work with the
team, and then I come back andsay all right, here's the here's
, we've put it into a concept.
(21:36):
This is a concept.
In the corporate world isessentially like a customer
pitch.
Right, you're putting it on apiece of paper so that you could
serve it up to people and seehow they'd react to it.
And I'm like where did thatgood idea go?
What is this?
It's all watered down.
There's like, instead of onespecific problem, one kind of
prime customer mindset, there'slike 15 things in there.
(21:56):
They have no idea how it'sgoing to go to market at their
slapping a price on it.
I'm like whoa, it's kind ofjumping from early to all the
way over here and I don't know.
I mean, obviously there arelimitations and you can't ignore
them in terms of how theexecution is everything right In
(22:18):
terms of how you go to marketif you've got this idea.
I've talked to many startups,where one in particular comes to
mind, where this really amazingidea for seniors and their
family isn't there Caregivers,their kids to help them.
The idea was to augmentsomeone's television so they
(22:40):
could.
You know, an older person who'snot had a lot of tech
experience isn't really savvy onsmartphones, but you could
augment their televisions sothey could video, talk on video
on their TV without having to doanything, you know, with their
loved ones.
And he was so passionate aboutthis idea because he had
experienced this problem.
And I've been talking with alot of people whose parents are
(23:02):
aging and they can't get overthere enough and they can't see
them enough, but they can't getthem to use FaceTime and all the
things, and it was just.
It was just such a poignant,worthy problem to go after.
But you know, then he's meetingwith investors and they want an
ability that the marketing justfeels too grandiose.
You know, like, oh my gosh, themarketing plan, how maybe you
(23:22):
should sell this to nursinghomes instead, you know, and
have them put it in thepatients' rooms.
And you know, okay, well, thehardware issues started coming
into play and there were realissues like there's the hardware
we have to make for this, wecan't get it in time.
So then it becomes like I hadthis problem I wanted to solve
and I knew I validated the heckout of it.
I mean, have people cryingtelling me they want this thing
(23:44):
right, like, but then how I needto take it to market to satisfy
the people who are going toinvest in this and how I need to
retool the product based on thehardware limitations pretty
much change what this could be.
So it's like, instead of givingup, you have to think about all
right, could there be a newgo-to-market model?
And if it's going to be sellingto nursing homes now you got to
go.
What's in it for them, right?
(24:05):
Like no, there's much what's init for, you know, the daughter
or son of their aging parentwho's sitting alone in their
house anymore.
It's now what's in it for theperson in the nursing home who
wants to buy this, you know?
So just, I think, an examplethat's a little bit veering away
(24:26):
from your question around dataversus gut, but I think that
particular story came to mindbecause I was thinking about
what happens to so many goodideas when they go into market
as the execution.
There are real blockers that canoccur and you always have to go
back to your story that you'vestarted with.
(24:49):
If I call it a story script inthe story-run world, they call
it the long-form brand script,the short version of that.
Whatever it is that you call it, we have many clients who call
it a manifesto.
But the pain and gain storywhat our solution will do for
somebody in a pretty specificand poignant situation to get
(25:14):
them to transition to success.
If you have that script in hand, and that's what you're
marching forward with, you haveto recognize when you have to
either go back to the story andfind a new one or you have to
find a way to make your launchplan match what it is, your
(25:39):
ideal customer, the mindsetyou're going after, the specific
problem that you're solving.
If you want to stay convictedon that path, then it may be
that it's a consumer product orconsumer offering and not B2B
and not digital.
It starts small before you gobig.
How grassroots and small canyou go into a really small test
(25:59):
market?
It's not like you're trying toraise money from investors, but
this has to be a stepwiseprocess.
Going DTC marketing is very,very expensive.
You're not going to go fromprototype to advertising during
money in a football overnight.
It's usually a very stepwisetype of go-to-market plan.
(26:22):
Those are the ones that succeed.
I mean, it's one of the biggestbrands that feel like they have
a huge, wide, expanded productline and they're for everybody
today started in a very, veryhyper focused, specific,
grassroots, door-to-doors weused to say type of launch plan.
Yeti is still my favoriteexample, tina's like.
(26:45):
I've heard this story but I loveit.
These two guys were twobrothers, son of an angler,
their professional fishermen.
It's called an angler.
I've learned in my outdoorsyyears they would have coolers
that they put their fish andtheir drinks in, but they would
beat those coolers up.
There's a picture online of oneof the brothers standing
(27:08):
casting on a cooler.
They just were like their dad,I think.
He built boats and there wasthe material that was used for
boats.
I'm giving the story right asfar as where the material came
from.
They knew that they could makea better cooler that would keep
things cold but also be really,really durable and would stand
(27:29):
up to a day out on the boat.
The product that's in everysoccer mom's hand in America and
every party on every boat andevery backyard today started as
one product, going after onespecific problem, which is not
even keeping things cold.
(27:49):
It was durability, this thingsuper durable.
Look how we can beat the heckout of it.
Stand on all these things.
Who did they talk to?
Initially?
They talked to the very samepeople they knew would feel
their pay and wish for otherfishermen, fisher women and
outdoors people.
I think it took years beforethis was in every REI and that
(28:12):
sort of thing.
There's a lot of good storiesout there.
There's no such thing as anovernight sensation.
Now, with the digital world, Ithink when that happens, or
seemingly happens, it's veryserendipitous.
But these launches that becomea lot of things for a lot of
different kinds of peopletypically start with one person
(28:33):
or one very hyper focused typeof problem that they knew they
could solve, that they werepassionate about solving.
The initial launch plan wasvery grassroots, was not
immediately jumping to, goingtoo broad.
What we're helping people do isnot water down their product
(28:56):
concept before they go intomarkets, that they're not
fiddling to death with newmessaging and split testing with
real live people and real liveplatforms spending real live
advertising money.
You're not going to get itperfect before you go live and
you certainly your first productis not every product you'll
have, but feel like you got tolove it before you launch it,
(29:18):
feel like you've nailed it.
That feeling one of thequestions, tina, you sent me
that you might ask today you hadasked about how do you know?
You know when you take a test,the standard, like whether it's
the ACT or whatever test whereit's a standardized questions.
I always think back to liketaking a math question on maybe
(29:40):
the ACT and you know when youknow you got it right.
You know that feeling oh yeah,it's C, I know it's C.
That feeling you aren't 100%sure you might be.
I mean there are times when youmight be.
You just know you've nailed it.
It's that feeling right.
It's not about perfection, it'snot about the only thing you'll
(30:02):
ever launch into the market,but it's that feeling.
Pia Silva she's amazing.
She wrote the book Bad AsherBrand.
How I stumbled across her yearsago.
I've worked with her.
She's been a mentor and abusiness coach for me.
She's awesome.
She talks about it feeling likeyour favorite pair of jeans,
(30:22):
like when you know.
You know Mainly talking aboutthe kind of messaging and
knowing your ideal customertarget and getting real niche
with your message.
She always says like yourfavorite pair of jeans.
That's how it should feel.
It's hard to feel that way withjust numbers.
You've got to go beyond thenumbers.
Tina Smith (30:38):
I'm curious though, like with your experience with
these massive companies, becauseI see this, you know we're in
the natural products business.
I see this all the time withbrands that have been really
successful with a product.
It could just be kind of like astandard product, like a
protein powder or something likethat.
Then they do really well withit.
They're like oh well, let'sjust add new versions of the
(31:00):
same product.
We'll just sprinkle dust,whatever extra things, like oh,
this is a stress protein thatdoesn't exist.
But it's like let's try to hitthese trendy stress or hydration
or weight loss or whatever.
It doesn't really alter theproduct all that much.
I'm curious what the processlooks like for some of these
(31:21):
larger companies where theymaybe feel like they have that
like well, we need to hit thesetrendy things, even if it's not
necessarily an effective product.
How hard is it to stop thattrain from the time of like oh,
we have this idea, let's justreformulate ever so slightly to
(31:42):
create this new product.
Then they bring it to market.
In our case, where we work witha lot of retailers and they're
just like this is crap, we don'twant to sell this.
It's like stick with what youknow.
You had a really great flagshipproduct and now you're just
adding stuff that doesn't needto be there and trying to be
(32:03):
something that you're not.
I'm just curious is it almostbetter for them to go to market,
even if they have, like poorresearch, once they've kind of
started that process of theformulation, the packaging?
I know it's expensive is itbetter to take it to market and
let it fail once it gets thereor to stop it in its tracks?
Teri Hoffman (32:26):
Ooh, that's a loaded question.
I laughed initially.
I was like PTSD laughing, Ithink Gosh, in the bigger
company world there are oftentimes when the reason for
launching or extending so addingofferings or extending is to
(32:50):
actually satisfy the retailer.
It's for shelf space, it's formaking sure we stay ahead of the
competition.
That's often the reason andthat can go.
Bigger companies have theability to, of course, correct
pretty quickly or to recover, Iwould say, more easily than a
smaller company.
(33:10):
That's where, I would say, inthe situation where a retailer
is saying we don't need this,sometimes you have to learn the
hard way, unfortunately.
I want to save everybody fromthat.
We all do.
That's what we want to save ourclients from A couple of
sprints, easier said than donesometimes, when you have your
own thing, pitching the retailerbefore you make the thing would
(33:37):
be key.
Okay, right, like we have thisidea.
What we can do is and so thisis a common thing that we have
done with bigger companies thatI think could be really useful
as far as advice for smallercompanies that are emerging and
trying to grow would be creating, like, what we call a concept
(34:00):
or the idea, without creatingthe product, getting reactions
to it getting a validation fromconsumer excitement, right To be
able to show, to pitch that tothe retailer and doing your
diligence before you've gonethrough with the effort of all
the R&D right Like it often isthe reverse that happens.
Right, like the R&D no, they'reonto something, they've got
(34:23):
this formulation, they werepitched by some shop that has
some unique ingredient orsomething that they've like.
I mean, the exclusion would bewhen you truly do stumble onto
something that is technology oris an ingredient or is a
combination of ingredients thatyou know can solve a problem
that nobody else has been ableto crack the code right.
(34:46):
Or an example would be there'sa dog food brand called Badlands
Ranch.
It's actually Catherine Hegelwho was the actress on Grey's
Anatomy and she's a big animaladvocate, all about natural
foods and cooking and all thesethings that she's real
passionate about that.
(35:07):
And she has a farm in Utahsomewhere and they live on the
farm and cook all their own foodand live off the land mentality
right and is very passionateabout trying to feed our animals
something that is food that isless processed but recognizes
like it's not that easy to makemy dog's food or if it's all of
like farmer's dog and all theseawesome brands that are out
(35:28):
there.
Now it's frozen, so it's likecreates okay.
Well, what do I do when I haveto travel with my dog?
And now I got to let it fall,or it's like I got to keep it
cold, so her?
If you go to their website, lookat their messaging for their
product.
Pretty quick into the messagingyou'll find them talking about
(35:49):
technology, which is not usuallywhat we advise.
Like, people don't want to hearall about your brand and all
about what it does and all aboutthe science, but in this case
they're actually come up to you.
It's like hey, we've come upwith a way to slow cook the food
so that we can still make itdry, so that it's still easy,
just like we know you want it,but also retains a lot very
(36:09):
minimally processed.
So it's just an example wherewe know this is a pain point.
Like we know, people wish theyhad a better solution than
feeding dry dog food and theyfeel guilty about doing it.
But it's expensive and not easyto go to all natural dog food.
So is there a middle ground?
(36:30):
And the technology itselfspeaks volumes, even if it's
like all you have to do is tellme about this technology and I'm
like, yay, it feels believable.
So in that case, because that'sa good, that's a strategy
that's rare, I think, that works.
That's rarely the way thesebrands that are adding new
products, are expanding or etcetera, like to lead with the
(36:53):
science, the ingredient or thetapping into a trend.
These are be skeptical aboutthat Anytime that you know
you're following a trend oryou're just throwing in an
ingredient that sounds trendy,just so you can have another
product on the shelf.
If it's not truly tapping intoa problem that's unsolved, maybe
(37:16):
hold.
Amanda Ballard (37:17):
Yeah, terri, this reminds me of you said
earlier.
The people closest to thecustomer are the ones who have
the hunch that you shoulddefinitely pay attention to and
in our world.
So we work with naturalproducts retailers and natural
products manufacturers, and whatkeeps coming up over and over
(37:38):
again is this advice of you usethe independent retailers, with
these small audiences who arevery connected to their local
community, who stand in theaisles and consult with their
clients.
You use those as test markets.
They get all your new ideas andyou can even come and just have
some training with theiremployees and you'll get
(38:00):
feedback before you launch aproduct or before you try
something new.
So there's a number of thingslike there's a wealth of
information and all that you'vebrought to the table.
And it just reminds me over andover again, both for the
retailer owner, because to betalking to the people who are
talking to the customers.
A lot of times the retail owneris the person on the floor, but
(38:23):
many times they've got a lot ofemployees who are interacting
with their customers Perfecttime to flow to new idea.
If you're going to bring a newproduct into the store, the
people who are walking thoseaisles will know if people in
that community are going to beexcited about that thing.
They've heard about all theproblems that you're still not
(38:44):
able to solve yet, so they'rethe people that you can be
talking to to get that feedback.
And the same with themanufacturers.
If you've got a distributor inthe area and you're thinking
about a new idea, great time tohave conversations with the
people who are working thosefloors.
That is closest to the customer.
Teri Hoffman (39:02):
Oh yeah, 100%.
And that reminded me of aproject that I worked on, gosh,
a few years ago, one of myfavorite clients.
They actually make cat litter.
It's called World's Best CatLitter, by the way.
They're very special people,the very special products, so
there's a plug for them.
It's all natural cat litter andthey're building the brand,
(39:23):
looking for new ways to buildthe brand but also extend the
brand and create newformulations, that sort of thing
.
And we did some work at theearly stage of a new initiative
and the sales team was involvedand it was such a reminder that
(39:44):
these people are out talking andthey were talking like the feed
stores.
They had all these insights, aswe like to call it.
I think insights come from us,not from data, but they were.
It was so insightful because ofjust the things that they would
say they've heard from beingout on the floor talking to
their customers and thenhappening upon somebody shopping
the cat litter aisle and thenthey're talking to them and then
(40:06):
the person shelt to shock inthe cell chimes in and it was
that moment when I realized,gosh, we have to get this is
like grassroots right here.
Right, you can get feedback ifyou're already on to If you're
looking for a new way, if you'rekind of in the more early stage
of like I want to just learnmore about my customers.
(40:27):
My gosh read reviews, find afew friends who've used your
product.
Right, go talk to them,especially, like you said.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's anadvantage in this space that
they have, whether it's theretailer, the manufacturer,
there's such a tightrelationship with these more
boutique, local, smallerdistribution channels because
(40:48):
there's just interactionhappening.
And I've always said thesalespeople, the big companies
marketing in sales, it's sort oflike you know, they feel like
they're supposed to be alignedbut they're often feel like
they're working at each othersometimes and I get it.
But, like the sales folks areout there, like you said,
(41:10):
they're out there on the groundtalking with people while things
are being bought and sold andgosh customers asking questions.
I mean what an opportunity,right, like when people are like
asking questions because theycan't find something or they
think something's not availablethat they think they want when
it really is.
I mean that's a big clue,that's a big opportunity if,
like all these brands thinkthey're communicating something
(41:33):
and consumers don't think theycan find that anywhere.
Amanda Ballard (41:36):
Yeah, Well, terry, this has been great, like
you've given so many nuggetsfor people to use to launch new
products.
But really, I mean, I feel likethe heart of this interview has
been around staying in touchwith your customer, because I
think that's where the gutfeeling comes from is that
(41:57):
interaction, the conversationsand hearing feedback, because
you're right, products don'tmake it if you're not solving a
problem, and the only way you'regoing to know what problems are
out there is personalexperience and feedback from
other people.
So I love all the informationthat you've given today and I
know that people are going to beable to use it to sell more
(42:19):
product in their stores andlaunch new products and sort of
innovate in their markets in away that is less expensive for
some of our smaller companies.
You don't need all this data.
Data is great, don't ignore it,but you don't necessarily need
it if you're in touch with yourcustomer, and I think that's a
beautiful thing.
(42:39):
So we always ask our podcastguests the same questions to end
the interview.
Oh gosh, yes, amanda, do youwant to do that, or you?
Tina Smith (42:53):
want me to.
Yeah, I'm watching Loaded, I'mready to go, all right, okay.
So, terri, who do you like tofollow to kind of stay up to
date with all things marketingand kind of stay at the top of
your game?
Teri Hoffman (43:07):
Oh, wow, of course , donald Miller, jj Peterson,
the story of Brown folks, I youknow it was pretty life-changing
when I stumbled upon, actually,somebody locally recommended, I
read, building a story brand,when I was actually launching my
(43:28):
own company, because it's hardto do you know create, clarify,
you know figure out your ownmessaging and your own offers
for yourself.
And so I realized reallyquickly oh my gosh, this is so
practical.
Well, of course, it's based ona 2,000-year-old, proven
framework, a stinkin' good story, right?
So that is a big one for me.
(43:49):
Gosh, there are so many Forbehavioral like, there is a book
called Influence, which I thinkis the foundation of persuasion
, influence, consumer behaviorby Rappacciadini, and he
recently launched a newsletteron LinkedIn.
(44:11):
I'm like, oh wow, look at this.
You know, I was just surprisedthat he did that and it's really
really good and it's one ofthose things where it's a lot of
social science experimentation,a lot of social experiments,
but they're very easy to like.
He'll do like a little slide.
You know, if you follow him onLinkedIn, a couple slides share,
(44:31):
you know, carousel, if you will.
And it's really easy to get thelesson from it and apply it
somewhere very distant from theactual experiment itself.
So those are probably my twofavorites.
I have a bunch my gosh.
Amanda Ballard (44:47):
Yeah, cialdini is one of the best.
So if you guys want to get thatbook, he's done several
presuasion.
And who's working with them?
Bass Wooters actually wrote abook called Online Influence and
I helped them do theirmarketing when they were first
launching that.
And now they've sort of broughtthese two brands together.
(45:09):
And that's Bass is thepractical guy.
He's from the Netherlands andhe is like out there running the
tests with his crew and thenbringing the data back and
Cialdini is talking about it.
So I think that was a perfectlike match.
Teri Hoffman (45:25):
And so far, oh, I didn't know that I have to check
it out.
I have a personal.
I was at a conference.
It was actually all aboutbehavioral science and he was
one of the speakers.
I got to meet him.
He's just, he just has thisaura about him too.
He just feels like good people,person, right.
But he was talking aboutwriting his book Presuasion and
(45:48):
I'll never forget he said he puta picture of his grandchild or
grandchildren inside of what hewas writing because he wanted to
make sure what he created wouldbe something they'd be proud
about.
And I feel like I try toremember that all the time.
I mean, you have to.
Everybody wants to feel proudabout, they've had an impact on
(46:09):
in some way, even if no oneknows it.
But you right, like that youhad, you were the reason that
this went to market this way oryou helped do whatever it is,
and I thought that was so neattoo.
So I have an emotional likepull for him.
But yeah, his stuff is just.
There are many others right Outthere that are good reads, but
there's a problem with my twofavorite.
(46:30):
I could go on and on on thisquestion.
I do I do a lot of skimming.
I'll tell you I'm a big doer,probably to a fault.
So I, you know, I'll get into abook and my brain's like, get
something, you need all this.
As soon as I get I'm like, oh,I'm going to try that, I'm going
to try a new idea.
And then it's like, oh, putthat on the shelf, let me try a
new one.
I think another really good onejust it's a little bit outside
(46:51):
of the norm, I think, in themarketing world is Hit Makers by
Derek Thompson.
He's actually a writer for theAtlantic and it's all about you
know why things go pop, whatmakes, what makes, what really
makes things go viral.
You know what makes big ideastake off, and it's called Hit
Makers.
It's really, really it's just.
(47:13):
It's just.
It's not for somebody who'slooking for.
Give me 10 examples and 10exact tips to use today.
It's more about like, here'swhat really goes on in terms of
why things take off, why newideas take off.
He talks about how modern music, you know, is all based on the
same chords and you know,there's something subtly
(47:34):
familiar.
There's newness and subtlefamiliarity and the balance of
that.
So it's a really good one too,especially somebody who's
thinking about growing theirbrand and trying to attract
customers quickly with a reallystrong message, or wanting to
put a new product into themarketplace, or sell a new
product right.
Like retailers, care too aboutmessaging and so forth.
Tina Smith (47:55):
So awesome.
What do you think is the singlebiggest decision you have made
in your career that's led toyour success?
Amanda Ballard (48:07):
No pressure, just the single biggest.
Teri Hoffman (48:09):
Yeah, I like that.
Amanda Ballard (48:15):
I wrote these questions by the way, this is
not.
Teri Hoffman (48:18):
Yeah, tina, I get it, don't shoot the mess here.
Okay, decision.
Okay, there's a few.
I was trying to decide.
There are like three differentstories.
Interestingly, they all tieinto two things One, feeling
(48:41):
pulled to work with somebody whoI sense could teach me a lot,
who's moving and do or couldteach me a lot, or being able to
hack my way and try new things.
So making decisions to doeither of those two things and
walking away from taking theroad loss traveled, but I would
(49:02):
say probably the single biggestone was when I was working at
Ipsos, which is a big marketingresearch company I think it's
the second biggest in the worldnow.
I was there for 10 years and Iwas working on a business unit
and the company acquired a newbusiness unit or a new business
from another company and theycame in to pitch us because we
were kind of the generalists andthey were specialists and we
(49:23):
would need to pull them in oncertain projects and so forth.
And the person who runs thatbusiness his name is Jason Brown
.
He's now head of the clientorganization at Ipsos.
He was probably the firstperson that in my world of
(49:43):
designing, selling marketing anddoing marketing research who
really would talk from abusiness results first
standpoint and he was supercasual and just like there was
something about.
I'm like, wow, I could learnfrom this person.
I was really new in the industryat the time and I was really
(50:05):
attracted to this person who wastalking about business results
first.
I'll talk about design andgadgets and data and our
livelihood is designing and allthese things it was more about.
This is what the businesscontext is and the kind of
business strategy that we wantto.
It was all about results and Ijust had to go work for him.
(50:27):
I knew that and serendipitously, a job came up and I got on his
team and I jumped ship,probably earlier.
I was doing really, really wellin the job that I was in at the
time so well.
I was having a really amazingyear so well.
That became a little bit of aoh, you're poaching her from one
division to the other, but itwas like knowing I had to work
(50:48):
with that person and that jobwas kind of everything for where
I am now.
It gave me all of my ideas.
It taught me all thefoundational basics about
helping people really be moreabout good market strategy first
, research second.
So long went, a way to sayknowing I wanted to work for him
(51:08):
and then working for himbecause I'll never have a boss.
Everybody works for him saysthe same thing, so that was
amazing learning experience.
Amanda Ballard (51:17):
Well, I love that too, because, talking about
business context and what's thebusiness result of this, versus
just having a great idea,people come to us and say, hey,
I want a new website, and I'mlike, okay, maybe.
Teri Hoffman (51:33):
Right, oh gosh.
Amanda Ballard (51:34):
Right, because I don't know if it's going to
give you the business resultsthat you're looking for, but I
think it's a great goal, likewhat are we trying to accomplish
?
And then let's talk about thepath to get their website might
be the right thing.
So I love that.
I love it when marketers andthis is a big watch out, a big
red flag If your marketing teamthat you're going to is just
like fulfilling your requests orthey are not in touch with what
(51:59):
your business goals are or whatthe context is around, how you
can and kind of get therebecause of regulations or like
whatever it is that's contextualto your business, your
marketing team better be awareof it, because you can have a
new website and it can be areally great one and it might
not get you where you want to go.
Teri Hoffman (52:21):
Oh yeah, so great.
My world as well.
You know it's like you want togive them what they think they
want, but you know they needprobably something else.
So you need to get the contextfrom them and dig in a little.
But I just I've found ifthey're not willing to talk
through, like let me dig in withthem a little bit first, then
it's probably not the right fitfor what we do.
(52:42):
You know I need to have, I knowyou think this is what you need
, this is what you need me to dofor you.
I have found that, like, allthey need is for them to want to
have a session with me to letme dig in and ask questions.
And if they're open to that andthey're excited about sharing
context, I usually know that Ican help them.
See that it's their idea to notimmediately jump into building
(53:06):
the website or, in my world,immediately jumping into the
research or immediately, youknow, whatever it is.
Yeah, they need to want to.
I mean, I'm sure there aresituations when people look I've
written the copy, tina, I wantthis website bill, right.
Like, maybe there's that rarecase, but I think it's pretty
rare, right.
Amanda Ballard (53:24):
Yeah Well, and I do think some hesitation around
sharing some of thatinformation from my perspective
has been we've done this amillion times, like sometimes I
think that with businesscoaching, if you make me write
one more vision or missionstatement, or like I have to map
out what my three year plan isone more time, what I really
(53:45):
needed someone to get in thetrenches with me and help me get
things done.
I think that's some hesitationbecause they've been burned in
the past by people who gothrough this long drawn out
process.
They've done it a million times.
It's gotten them nowhere.
So first red flag is thatyou're not asked.
Second red flag is it doesn'tmatter what you say, they're
still going to offer you awebsite or like whatever it is.
(54:06):
But I understand hesitationsometimes with, like going
through this rigorous processagain.
Tina Smith (54:12):
Yeah.
So, terry, what do you think issome low hanging fruit that
would give people in the naturalproducts industry some quick
wins in their businesses?
Teri Hoffman (54:24):
Well gosh, tina already mentioned one, which is,
if you haven't, If you haven'ttalked with users, customers
recently talk to a few.
It's so stupidly simple A fewconversations.
Read reviews.
(54:44):
I know it might sound silly tomany business owners, because
they business owners andfounders do tend to do these
things more so than you know.
A bigger company got otherthings going on and you start
lose touch with those types ofactivities.
But like simple right, likejust conversations.
Don't even worry about thestructure of the conversation.
(55:06):
You know, if it's really justwant to know how you're doing,
have some conversations.
That, to me, is the lowest oflow hanging fruit there is I've
worked with.
So I come from a big corporateland that I spent several years
working with startups as well.
When I started my companyintentionally, you know, and
I'll never forget.
(55:28):
A guy had an initial kickoffsession with him and he had a
new product that was already hisfirst version, was already in
the market and had sold.
He was selling.
He wanted to improve it, buildit out, scale it, all those
things.
Before he did that, he wantedto make sure he had really
nailed what he was going toscale.
And one of the first things hesaid to me is like he knew that
I have, you know, doing theresearch is a big part of my
(55:49):
livelihood and expertise and Icome from you know, corporate
world.
And he said it was almost likeI was going to tell you I
haven't done much research.
He was almost like embarrassedbecause he felt like he hadn't
done the right, all the valid,all the things that you're
supposed to do that we probablydo over here in the corporate
world, that he just he just wentfor it as a founder and I said,
(56:11):
okay, well, let's talk a littlebit about your product, what
you know now.
And he started telling me aboutthis hunch, obviously the
theory that he has that hethinks it's an umbrella.
It's a.
It's actually a huge umbrellathat's called Humbra that you
put on the back of a truck thatis really sturdy and creates
shade.
Okay, and he.
This came upon him as he wasout in the Death Valley desert
(56:35):
under the sun baking and hecouldn't get enough shade under
the tent or the pop of tent thathe had.
So he had said, like I reallythink the problem that I'm
really solving is the wind, it'ssturdy, it's about shade, I
think it's about sturdy.
I was like, well, how do youknow this?
He said, well, well, first Ilooked at my sales and then I
looked at where they were comingfrom and they just happened to
be coming from like windy areas.
(56:56):
So your question about data,that would be a good, that would
be a clue, right?
Data should be about clues andsignals and not proof, right?
I'm like, oh, that that's agood theory, right?
And then he said, then he says,keep in mind, he tells me that
he has not done any.
I've really not done any,really, customer, I really just
went for it, I haven't done muchresearch.
(57:16):
I said, okay, well, and then Isaid what else?
How else do you know that?
And he said, well, when Italked to all the customers, I'm
like, wait, wait, wait, maybe,and talk to all of them, he was,
yeah, I call every singlecustomer that has bought my
product and I just basically, hewas basically journey mapping,
right, he was asking them, just,you know, hey, how'd you hear
about this Kind of what, whatyou're experienced so far?
I mean, I'm like can I hire youto do our research for us?
(57:39):
You know, I was like can I juststop you for a second and let
you know that please don'tassume what you're doing is
research, right, like you aredoing the things to keep in
touch with making sure yourcustomers and their needs and
making sure you're solving theright problem.
And before you go big with thisthing, wanting to really nail a
(58:02):
problem that you suspect is alittle different than what you
started out with, I just, I wasso like that's a long-winded
story, I'll have to figure itout.
I edit this one down.
Maybe we'll retake it becauseit's a good one.
I was like he's telling me thathe doesn't do any research and
then feeling kind of embarrassedby it.
And then he proceeds to tell mehe talks to every customer and I
thought if I could get everyone of my big clients to talk to
one, to want to talk to one,you know, just go talk to one
(58:25):
you know, wow.
Tina Smith (58:28):
So that's awesome.
Well, thank you so much foryour time, terri.
If people want to get in touchwith you or, you know, do a
consultation with you, how wouldthey get in touch with you?
Teri Hoffman (58:38):
Yeah, gohunchcom is our website.
There is a button right on thehomepage to book a call.
So that's the first.
That's where we always start,just to hear a little bit about
where you are.
If we can help you always getsomething out of that call,
because we will review whateveryou have at the moment whether
it is a working idea, whetherit's an established brand
message.
(58:58):
We'll review it together andgive you some tips right on that
call.
So that's the first step.
My email is terri T-E-R-I one Rat gohunchcom.
I had to make the emphasisabout the one R.
It's like a joke with myfriends and I.
You know everybody puts two Rsin it and I have to.
Nobody on this podcast knowsabout that inside joke, but they
(59:22):
have now they do, it might puta Y on it too.
Oh listen, that's the boyversion.
Terri Bradshaw shirters.
Amanda Ballard (59:32):
Very funny.
Yeah, thanks so much, Terri,for being here and doing this,
and we'll have links to yourwebsite and your email address
in our show notes so that peoplecan find you easily.
And if you're looking for somesort of guerrilla marketing
research, I think Terri's agreat option to go with.
(59:54):
So book a consult and learn alot of things about whether or
not your hunch with yourcustomers is right.
Teri Hoffman (01:00:04):
Aw, thank you, it's been super fun.
Thank you for having me on.
Tina Smith (01:00:08):
Thanks so much for listening to the Natural
Products Marketer podcast.
We hope you found this episodeto be super helpful.
Make sure you check out theshow notes for any of those
valuable resources that wementioned on today's episode.
Amanda Ballard (01:00:19):
And, before you go, we would love for you to
give us a review.
Follow, like and subscribe onApple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube
or wherever you're listeningtoday, and make sure you join us
for our next episode, where wegive you more marketing tips so
that you can reach more peopleand change more lives.
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