December 18, 2024 • 47 mins
Unlock the secrets to mastering pricing strategies in the natural products industry with insights from our expert guests, Chase Ballard and Micah Corrigan. Discover how adopting MAP pricing as a standard can revolutionize your market approach and keep your customers coming back for more. We'll explore the common pitfalls of sticking to full MSRP pricing and how this can skew consumer perceptions, making in-store shopping seem more expensive than online giants like Amazon. Learn from other industries' pricing models and gain actionable strategies to refine your pricing tactics and strengthen your market position.
Join us as we reveal the blueprint to building customer loyalty and trust through impactful loyalty programs and transparent practices. We discuss the art of turning customers into loyal "trustomers" with significant incentives and the vital role of training staff to engage effectively with customers at checkout. For retailers hesitant to move away from MSRP, we provide guidance on collaborating with partner brands to offer competitive everyday prices. Trust and transparency are key as we navigate these challenges, fostering strong relationships with partner brands for sustainable growth.
Finally, we dive into innovative promotional strategies that can transform retail success, highlighting the power of BOGO deals and other promotions in boosting sales and brand visibility. While aggressive promotions attract new customers, they also present challenges like brand-switching. We stress the importance of balancing promotions while maintaining customer trust and pricing integrity. By collaborating creatively with brands, retailers can channel enthusiasm and support to build a loyal customer base, ensuring sustainable growth in a competitive market. Don't miss this opportunity to elevate your business with proven strategies and insights.
Connect with us:
Email: info@naturalproductsmarketer.com
About Amanda Ballard
Amanda has worked in natural products marketing in the retail setting since 2016 and has a great understanding of the unique challenges and opportunities that retailers in this industry face. More than anything, she wants this industry to continue to boom and believes much of that success hinges on the ability of retailers to do well in their businesses and market their products effectively.
About Tina Smith
Since 2014, Tina has worked with multiple natural products businesses, discovering how to market their CBD products online, without having their payment processor shut them down, to letting customers talk about their health issues those products have helped them solve. She knows first hand how experts like you offer the best products and a superior customer experience, that is why she is committed to helping you find an easy way to grow your natural product business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chase Ballard (00:00):
Well, I think that, right there, what you just
said is our entire industry.
Half of our stores are stuck in2008.
Half of our I'm not evenkidding by half, probably, maybe
more half are stuck in 2008.
They're still doing SuperTuesday.
Sorry if that offended half ofyou.
(00:20):
You should be very offended.
Tina Smith (00:25):
Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer
Podcast.
Amanda Ballard (00:33):
I'm Tina and I'm Amanda, and we're here to make
marketing easier for naturalproducts businesses so you can
reach more people and changemore lives.
Hey everyone, welcome back tothe Natural Products Marketer
Podcast.
We are so excited to have ChaseBallard and Micah Corrigan back
with us so soon, so thank youguys so much for joining us
again.
Micah Corrigan (00:52):
Thanks for having us.
Tina Smith (00:54):
Thanks.
Super popular podcast last timewe got a lot of feedback for it
from it, so very excited tochat with you guys again.
Amanda Ballard (01:04):
Yeah.
So if you didn't listen to partone, I highly encourage you to
go back.
Even just pause this episode.
Go back and listen to part one,come back and listen to part
two and it'll just be a muchricher conversation.
But there's going to be lots ofgreat insights for you today as
well.
So just to hop right in, guys, Iknow we talked a lot about
(01:26):
becoming the influencer in yourcommunity Last time.
We talked a lot about mappolicy and how you guys
implement that in your pricingstrategy and it made me think
that I wanted to do a deep diveinto pricing and promotional
strategies today.
Because we run into this withalmost every single client when
(01:47):
we start working with them,because we're deep diving into
their finances and, you know,looking at how, what their store
mixes and all of theirinventory and what their margins
are, and inevitably it comes upwhere we find that something's
off with their pricing model andso we're trying to figure out
how to best navigate thatconversation with them.
(02:08):
So I'm selfishly really excitedto just pick your brains today,
because I think you have a lotof wisdom to share in this
regard.
So I want to kind of just painta little bit of a picture of
what we're seeing as the mostcommon situations that we've run
into when we've been workingwith stores and maybe you have
(02:28):
other things that you would addto it, but what we're finding
the most common is stores areeither pricing at full MSRP,
with just occasional sales Maybethey have like one or two items
or one or two lines on sale atany given time.
Option two is they price somelines at MAP, but they're
(02:51):
marketing them as being on sale,and then they're on sale all
the time, and then the vastmajority of their products are
still at full MSRP, as well asoccasional sales line drives,
things of that nature, butthey're still only getting close
to MAP at that point.
And then the third situationwe're running into is stores
(03:13):
that are pricing at MAP almostall the time.
However, they don't do extrapromotions on top of that.
So I'd love to kind of justthrow all of that out there and
get your thoughts and feedbackon what you know pros and cons
are of those differentstrategies, If you would do
something completely differentand kind of how you think
through your pricing strategy.
(03:34):
I'll start with you, Micah.
Micah Corrigan (03:37):
Yeah.
So I think that pricing thingsat full MSRP is just a bad
practice as a retailer.
When I'll visit other stores,I'll see products that are sold
at full MSRP, and what it does,in my opinion, is that it just
reinforces this idea tocustomers that shopping in
(03:59):
stores is more expensive thanAmazon, and so it hurts me as a
retailer when other fellowretailers are pricing it at full
MSRP.
So we're trying to break thathabit of shopping on Amazon.
There's this idea that Amazonis always going to be cheaper,
and it's really not.
But if we continue pricingthings at full MSRP, then that's
(04:21):
, you know, becoming a realityfor customers.
So I want to break that habit.
And so, you know, we priceeverything at MAP at our stores
and then from there we negotiatediscounts and promotions, and
then you know, we have otherways to promote further than
that.
But for us, we're pricingeverything at MSRP when a brand
(04:43):
has an MSRP price.
For us, we're pricingeverything at MSRP when a brand
has an MSRP price, but they'reselling it at MAP.
Map is the new MSRP.
Msrp really doesn't meananything, it's just a made up
number.
I'll give you an example.
I was purchasing a dishwasher alittle bit ago and I looked
online and everything was thesame price, and so in our
(05:05):
industry we're really focused onmap, but in other industries
it's called a UPP, a universalprice point.
So if you ever bought a TV or adishwasher and appliance, a lot
of those are the same pricesand then from there they have
other ways to promote it.
Like you get a new, you buy themattress and then you get the
bed frame, you know, for free,or you know the manufacturer
gives, you know, an addedincentive from there.
(05:27):
But yeah, I'm really focused onselling everything at MAP, also
known as a UPP.
Amanda Ballard (05:33):
Yeah, chase, what would you add to that?
Chase Ballard (05:37):
Yeah, no, I agree with everything Micah said.
I don't I mean I don't win anyfriends with saying this, but
like, I think, like honestly, ifyou're selling an MSRP, like
you need to do a lot of workbecause I think you're, you're
pretty much I think you'reyou're out of business.
If you're, you sell MSRPbecause you're going either I'm
(06:00):
going to move into town orsomeone like me is going to move
into town and put you out ofbusiness, or Amazon is just
going to slowly kill you andthen you also make the industry
look bad, like Mike has said, ofwhere now people think always
shopping in a store is this badpricing?
So it's really like get withthe program.
I mean, the battle of map waswon and most brands if you are a
(06:23):
halfway decent buyer and youknow can talk to brands and buy
on promotion and things likethat, you can still make 40, 50,
55 percent on a lot of thesebrands and sell it map every day
and that's that's a good margin.
You know the days of 70 percentmargin, 65 percent, that's not.
(06:46):
That doesn't exist and it mayexist for you, but you're
probably not moving volume andyou're probably not making money
.
And the last we checked.
I mean, the thing we say a lothere is we don't take percent to
the bank, you take money to thebank.
So it's how much are youselling?
It's like, yeah, okay, you, youknow people need to start
looking at how much money theyneed to operate, not what margin
they need to operate.
So, yeah, I think just kind ofgetting back to retail, of buy
(07:11):
something and turn it and sellit and have fun doing it.
The other thing I would say,though, is the thought escaped
me, but when it comes to beingon sale, so I price at MAP every
day on everything I have, and Ithink everybody should and then
(07:33):
we run promotions on top of MAP, and we have to talk to vendors
and explain what we're doing,and usually, when we tell them
that we're pricing it at mapevery day and we want to do
something extra, they're prettywilling to go along with us.
If we don't communicate that,then yeah, they're like well, I
don't know if I can do that, butonce they find out we're
pricing it at map and we need tocompete with Amazon, they're
(07:55):
pretty willing to work with us.
And the thing about saying it'son sale and it's Matt Price,
though, that you know, the wholecrux of this industry, I mean
the most important thing in thisentire industry when it comes
to customers is getting yourcustomers to trust you.
(08:17):
I'm going to start calling themtrust-mers.
Micah Corrigan (08:22):
It's a new word, Chase.
Chase Ballard (08:24):
Made it up on the fly.
The goal is to get people totrust you with their health, but
really it's just get them totrust you.
If you're sitting here sayingit's on sale, look at this sale
30% off, that's Amazon'severyday price.
That's not really a sale.
I see what you did there andthen the next time.
(08:45):
Here's the problem.
When you do actually run a selland you hopefully start pricing
a map every day and youactually do have a cool sell on
top of map, maybe they don'tbelieve you or you know.
So trust is a very importantthing and you can lose trust
very quickly with customers andthat should be your most sacred
(09:05):
thing as your customer.
Micah Corrigan (09:08):
Did it again.
It's a thing now.
It's a thing now.
Chase Ballard (09:12):
Your customer's trust, but that should be your
most important asset.
I think so, yeah.
Micah Corrigan (09:18):
Yeah, and I just want to add to Chase's point.
We call it the Amazon suggestedretail price.
That's the map Amazon suggestedretail price.
That's the map Amazon suggestedretail price.
So I mean that should just bethe EDLP, that should just be
the everyday price.
How you market some retailers.
They want to take the made upnumber and take 20% off.
(09:39):
I think that's fine.
It just shows value like aneveryday value, of course.
I think that's fine.
It just shows value like aneveryday value, of course, and
that's what we do.
But then, on top of that,customers at the end of the day,
customers they just have theirphone, they have their apps and
(10:02):
they're looking.
It takes them one second.
It's not like the 80s or the90s where you had to drive 20
minutes to the next store and 30minutes to the next store and
then price compare and then calland what happened?
In a matter of seconds they canshop 10 retailers online and
they should all be seeing thesame price point and then from
there, however, that e-tailer orthat retailer provides extra
value.
That is going to be therelationship in terms of like,
(10:24):
promotions and price.
That's important.
So, like for us, we we relypretty heavily on our rewards
program and that's how we um,you know, give you know, besides
running promotions specificallyin store, uh, we really rely on
our rewards program to add thatadded value.
So, like at our customers, youknow, you know, you know they
(10:51):
get 1% cash back on everythingthey buy and then they can use
that 1% cash back towardsanything on the next purchase
and then we'll do like addedextra deals, you know, 10% cash
back, 15%, 20, 25, 30.
And that really adds up.
I mean you're you sell aproduct 30.
And that really adds up.
I mean you're, you sell aproduct A lot of times they can
accrue, you know, $5 or $10right in that purchase and then
(11:11):
that also helps them come backinto the store and then they can
use that towards the nextpurchase and that kind of keeps
keeps the money kind ofrevolving in the same system.
Chase Ballard (11:20):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
For any store that has thecapability to do a loyalty
rewards program.
I think that's the home run ofhome runs.
I guess that would be a grandslam.
That is the way to do it, andespecially if you can leverage
that into your e-commerce, tolike yes, yes, yes, yes, because
(11:50):
then now you have theire-commerce shopping, they're not
going to want to buy anythingon Amazon, even if, you know,
because we have that problem, wedon't have a loyalty program
and we don't even have ane-commerce.
Where I'm at here and you knowwe'll talk to people because
everybody shops on Amazon.
Amazon's a.
Everybody uses Amazon, or mostpeople do, and you know people
(12:12):
go, oh, yeah, I just picked upsome of those on Amazon.
They're working great, thoughThanks for recommending them.
Well, without having thatloyalty program or that, those
you know the, yeah, the rewards,those, um, you know the uh,
yeah, the the rewards, um, wecan't.
You know.
We can kind of say, oh, hey,you know, make sure you can keep
supporting us, type stuff.
But, um, but really, when youhave the reward points or the
(12:34):
cash back, you can really, itjust makes sense.
So, yeah, that's.
That's, I think, a reallysuccessful strategy.
Micah Corrigan (12:41):
Yeah, like when, when a customer is trying to
decide, you know what, what'sthe difference?
Right, they have it, you know,they have it at um town $10 at
the retailer.
They have it at $10 on Amazon.
They have it at $10 on a largeother e-tailer.
What's the difference?
Well, now I can get it same dayat that store.
Right now I don't have to, youknow, feel bad that I could save
(13:01):
an extra 10% or 20% on Amazon.
So that's a win.
You already have that physicallocation benefit.
And then the second benefit,yeah is is I was I was just
doing this like a little bit agotoo.
I was comparing, you know, aproduct between two e-tailers
and, and one of the e-tailershad a better rewards program and
fostered loyalty and I'm like,okay, well, if I'm going to
(13:24):
invest in this product, you know, and I'm going to keep
purchasing that product, well, Imean, that is like a no brainer
.
You know I can accrue rewards,you know, every time I purchased
this.
So you know, I, I, I think thatis that's definitely like um
people, that you know peopleshould definitely look into that
, if they don't already have aloyalty program, to start
(13:44):
investing in one like that.
Chase Ballard (13:46):
Well, and what's cool is, I've never done rewards
that high, but that's what'scool is a 20% off sale.
It just doesn't ring that well.
But you say 20% cash back, it'slike holy.
What it's like excuse me, thatjust sounds insane.
And that's really what you needto do as a retailer is get your
(14:06):
customers to stop, and theirjaw should drop and be like are
you kidding me Really?
So yeah, that has a really goodring to it, and I mean you know
at previous retailers that wehad a program like that and it
was funny.
You'd have customers that justwanted to save their money and
like they're like no, no, I'msaving it up, I'm gonna come in
here and buy the whole store,I'm gonna save it up.
(14:27):
And there'd be like people withlike 600 bucks and it was like
I mean, okay, keep doing that,that's fine.
Tina Smith (14:35):
Well, that's another thing.
That's um, that's kind ofimportant at the checkout, like
training your people at thecheckout to have that
conversation Like, do you wantto use your, your, your rewards
right now?
You've got this much moneybanked.
So I've seen some retailers dothat very well and I've seen
I've been in other retailerswhere it prints it out on the
(14:56):
receipt but there was noconversation that happened.
No one reminded me that I justearned more rewards.
No one was thanking me forshopping.
That's a whole point point ofthe experience where you can
make your customers more.
You can make them intotrustmers.
Micah Corrigan (15:13):
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, customers, I love it.
We're going to turn that into anatural progression, like we had
.
You know, we had one customerwho like swore up and down, he's
never joining a rewards program, he doesn't want to do it, and
um, it took about two years orthree years, um, for customers
in front of him in line at oh,$10 off, $15 off, $20 off, $5
(15:37):
off, and it wore him down somuch he's like, okay, fine, I'll
do it.
He was so tired of seeingeveryone save so much money in
front of him.
You know, and there's ethicslike we don't, we don't sell our
customer data.
Obviously, you know we want tokeep that within, you know our
ecosystem, but it just kind ofkeeps the dollars flowing inside
(15:57):
our business, which has beenvery helpful.
Tina Smith (16:01):
Yeah, key key for trust is to have a conversation
about how you're using people'sdata, and some people aren't
asking immediately, but it'snice, when they go to look at
the loyalty program, that theycan say, oh wait, they're not
selling this to anyone.
Amanda Ballard (16:20):
I want to ask, you know stores listening to
this and maybe they fall in thatMSRP camp and that's, that's
their comfort zone.
The thought of reducing theirprices you know 20 percent to be
a map every day scares the crapout of them.
What advice would you give to astore like that that you know?
(16:49):
Here's what you're saying.
Like, you guys are two reallysuccessful retailers doing this
every single day and they, youknow, maybe only do map pricing
a few times a year per line.
What, what?
What does that transition looklike?
How do you do that in a waythat isn't so terrifying?
Micah Corrigan (17:02):
Well, first, first of all, I want to add that
it's slowly going to erode thetrust.
Well, first, first of all, Iwant to add that, um, it's
slowly going to erode the trust.
Like, you know, you're sellingto that customer but that
customer has a son or a daughterand that son or daughter is
online and over time, that childis going to say hey mommy, hey
(17:22):
daddy, you can save $10, $20.
How many times are you buyingthis supplement?
You know, 12 times a year.
I mean you could save a hundreddollars right there, $120,
right there, and then youmultiply that by.
You know, you know twoprotocols, three other protocols
for the protocols.
You know six.
You know brands.
I mean, it's just a ton ofsavings.
(17:43):
And slowly, people are startingto calculate that I'm like, why
am I spending this much money?
It's the same product andthere's like that's another
conversation if it's actuallythe same product.
But you know, let's just say,for the sake of this, that it is
the same product.
Then that's going to slowly,you know, create a bad taste in
that person's mouth becausethey're going to be thinking, oh
, like, what else are they doingto me?
(18:03):
You know, how else do I?
Am I getting like cheated.
So I think that trust is goingto slowly erode.
But I, you know I would juststart slow.
You know you could just do Iwould.
Well, okay, I would first findyour partner brands.
So there's going to be somebrands that, like you, can't do
it and you have to decide ifit's worth it to carry those
(18:25):
brands.
And there's going to be manybrands like Chase brought up
that if you talk to them and yousay, hey, I want to price it at
a competitive price every day,most partner brands are going to
be willing to play some kind ofball with you.
I think the brands are justtired of people padding their
margins with 60%%, you know, andit's not good for the whole
(18:47):
industry like that.
But I would start slow.
I'd find the brands that can doit.
I'd find the brands that youknow that are partner brands and
I would slowly start makingthose a priority and ordering up
on those, giving those moreshelf space, promoting those,
those more shelf space,promoting those.
You know you don't need to have.
(19:08):
You know 70 varieties ofvitamin C, you know you can
slowly start whittling that downto priority or to partner
brands and then making surethose partner brands can give
you the margins at the map price.
Tina Smith (19:17):
So let's talk about that for a minute.
Micah and Chase, we can comeback to you if you wanted to
chime in on that.
But I hear a lot of times likefocus.
So you're talking about partnerbrands.
Focus is helpful, even in theamount of choice that you're
giving the customer.
But what is the right amount?
(19:38):
Because we hear things likeokay, well, some people aren't
going to try a protein powderunless it's, you know, a certain
dollar amount or less.
So what are those price points?
Are we looking for something inhigh, medium, low range?
Are we looking for 14 kind ofskews Like what?
What does that look like?
Micah Corrigan (19:59):
Sure, yeah, um, I think the high, medium, low is
a good strategy.
Um, I You're already a physicalretailer.
I would lean more into thehigher end.
That's just my personal opinion, or at least that works with
our market.
People can buy the crappiestproducts that they want online
(20:20):
already.
You're there to solve the needsof the customer.
Make sure you're providinghigh-end quality service,
high-end quality products.
I would go with the higher end.
Insert maybe some middle brandsthat are there for
price-sensitive customers, ofcourse, but I would lean already
into the higher end because ourindustry, most of our retailers
(20:43):
, are very niche.
Right, we're not in the massmarket.
The mass market does a greatjob at selling mass market
products and mass marketproducts are really great at low
potencies, fewer servings,lesser quality ingredients.
They're they're focused ongetting that price point and I
(21:03):
think if you compete directly inthat lane, it's not, it's not a
winning strategy In my opinion.
Um, I think the lane is goingto be more in the unique
boutique therapeutic lane.
It's not, it's not a winningstrategy in my opinion.
Um, I think the lane is goingto be more in the unique
boutique therapeutic lane.
Tina Smith (21:15):
Yeah, chase, I felt like you were about to say
something when he was talkingabout your partner brands.
Chase Ballard (21:21):
Oh, I don't remember what I was going to say
.
Um, I did have a.
It's funny.
I had a funny story that cameup the other day of talking
about these brands andnegotiating with them, with
partner brands, and it was um, Iwas asking for a deeper
discount to do something crazy.
I forget what it was, but, um,it was funny.
It cracked me up because theysaid, oh, I think it went, got
(21:45):
up to their regional or their ussales or the, the, the bigger
dog.
They're like, oh, it's chase.
Well, yeah, we know he's goingto pass on the price, just do it
, because there's so many storesthat don't pass on the price
and we're tired of dealing withthem.
And it was just like oh well,thank you, other retailers for
helping me get a better deal.
(22:05):
So, um, but yeah, that was justa funny story that there,
apparently, there's a lot ofretailers that aren't passing on
these deals and it's just.
I mean, that's where, again,when we talk about negotiating
with these partner brands, mostof them are just desperate for
someone to actually execute apromotion and pass it on, like
(22:26):
that's really all they'rewanting.
It sounds like like it's likethey're not asking for a ton,
it's like you're just going tofollow through on the deal.
That's great, so I didn'treally have much to add other
than that, though.
Tina Smith (22:37):
That's a perfect segue into promotions.
Tell us a little bit more likewhat's your strategy around that
.
When do you start doing them?
How do you make the choice ofwho, how often?
That kind of thing thing.
Chase Ballard (22:50):
Yeah, I mean, you know typically brands.
You know a typical brand is youget an everyday price or you
should negotiate for an everydayprice where you can make money
at map.
You know, for example,depending on the brand, you
should be making anywherebetween 35% margin up to 50%
margin at map, depending on.
(23:11):
You know volume, relationshipand um types of products.
But you know.
But really then from there, youknow most brands are going to
run a line drive on top of theireveryday discount a few times a
year.
Or you know you can negotiatecertain things.
But you know, just execute yourpromotions around that.
And you know I'm notorious.
I don't know if I'm notorious.
(23:32):
I'd say other people do it too.
But I don't like falling intopromotional calendars.
It's like I kind of use thoseas a guideline and then I just
kind of say like okay, well,don't hold me accountable to any
of that.
But you know, let let's worktogether and let's do my custom.
You know, this month I want todo this, this month I want to do
this, this month I want to dothis, and it works out pretty
well.
And I don't know you.
(23:52):
Just, I don't know.
For promotions I don't.
I don't let brands reallydictate what they want to do for
promotions.
I kind of say here's what Iwant to do, because this is what
excites me.
It kind of goes back to what Iwas saying last podcast of like
you need to be the owner, likedon't.
If it doesn't excite, you,don't do it.
Like you know, thank, thankgoodness, so many of these
(24:14):
brands are going away from.
They used to do this a lot andI think most of them are
stopping finally, I think, butthis whole like oh well, this
month we're having our Bvitamins on sale and on next
month it's our vitamin D, andthen then, oh, next month it's
like just stop, like just doeverything or don't do anything.
And I think we're finally kindof getting back to it's just a
(24:35):
pure line drive instead of likecategories and subcategories and
stuff like that.
But I don't even know why I goton that point.
But yeah, just make sure,dictate to what the brand,
dictate to the brands what youare excited about, what you want
to do, and execute that.
And I give a lot of the brandsideas of like you know, I tell
them like listen, come up withthe ideas.
(24:58):
Here's the margin I need to hit.
But as long as I hit thismargin.
Sometimes on a promotion, we'redoing a margin of like 20% 25%
net margin.
But you know what?
20% 25% net margin.
But you know what, if we didn'tdo that promotion and we sold
it at 40% margin, maybe we bringin $500 in sales on that item
(25:19):
or that brand that month.
I mean $500 in margin thatmonth.
Doing that promotion, we maybring in $3,000.
Stop thinking about percent ofmargin and think about dollars.
What's exciting, what arepeople going to be excited about
?
And just about dollars, likewhat's exciting.
Amanda Ballard (25:35):
What are people going to be excited about?
And just do that?
I don't know.
Well, and I think that that'san interesting point, because I
know we've talked about this onprevious episodes as it relates
to co-op, and I think the theconcept is the same If you are
going to a brand and you're like, hey, I have this idea around
this marketing activity or thispromotion, or both together,
what do we need to do to makethat happen?
Like they're going to be superexcited to work with you.
(25:57):
If you're just like, okay, whatcan I get from you?
They're not going to be asexcited to work with you.
But if you are taking theinitiative and coming up with
these ideas and thinking outsideof the box, they're going to be
way more likely to say yes toeven the craziest of ideas.
And they're going to share thatwith other customers too,
(26:19):
because you know that's again,the beauty of this industry is
hey, chase is doing this thingdown in Florida.
Would you want to try that inyour store, micah?
Like that's, you know thatworked really, really well, so
it can inspire other retailersto get ideas and then kind of
just set off this domino effectof success for everybody.
Chase Ballard (26:42):
Well, we started doing a thing about two or three
years ago.
It was this crazy idea.
It started with AncientNutrition, I believe.
It was buy one, get one free atMatt Price and we were like
wait, can this actually work?
And you know, we put pen topaper and it kind of worked out
(27:04):
and we started doing that.
They actually took thatnationwide to a bunch of select
retailers and copied thatprogram.
So, yeah, they took thisprogram to other retailers and
they started launching it there.
They actually got their producthigher up in spins.
They called me and thanked meabout that.
But anyways, what we starteddoing from there is we tried it
(27:26):
with some other brands and we'relike, okay, hey, this is kind
of working, here's how we'redoing it, here's kind of the
magic strings we're pulling.
And then we started doing itwith some other brands and we're
like, okay, hey, this is kindof working, here's how we're
doing it, here's kind of themagic strings we're pulling.
And then we started doing itwith two, two or three other
brands.
And now we've got it kind of sostreamlined to where, when I
meet with a brand, I'd saybasically, here's our package
tiers, to where, if you know, wesell it map every day.
So I have to have this margin,or you're not coming in the
(27:46):
store.
And then the second one is likeall right, and then we do buy
one, get one half off, you know,at map, and we need this margin
to do that.
Your lift's going to be aboutthree to five X.
They're like okay, that's cool.
And then it's like all right,and then we have our BOGO free.
Now that's where they're likeholy crap, what?
(28:11):
Like 50x?
Well, you know maybe, but 20xis usually pretty much
guaranteed.
And so they now want to workhard to get to that.
So I kind of give them theparameters and say here's the
game we're playing, here's thetools you need to play in this
game.
And then they work hard to comeup with ideas to do that.
(28:31):
So you kind of put them to workand say here, here's the,
here's the parameters, like,have fun.
And that's worked really well.
And so now we're on year two orthree of that and, um, I used
to have to work and scrap andclaw for every like to get those
bogo frees going.
Now they just kind of fall inmy lap because the brands
understand where I need to beand kind of understand the rules
(28:53):
.
Tina Smith (28:53):
So okay, you said a lot of numbers there and I just
want to talk about them again,because they're big.
Like you're talking about bignumbers, and the thing I was
thinking about when you weretalking about promotions and
doing like really big deals isyou're trying to buy new buyers,
(29:13):
like you're trying to movepeople into the category who
haven't tried it before yes,people that are there enjoying
some benefit of it too, butyou're not necessarily doing
that for them.
So you're trying to buy newpeople.
So my question is if you get tothat 20 X with a BOGO, how long
does that last?
Does it stay at 20 X, or is it?
(29:34):
You know you're here it liftsto 20 and then it drops back
down, but not lower.
What does that look like?
Chase Ballard (29:40):
Yeah, no, it's definitely.
Um, there's, there'srepercussions to that and you
know, some of our customers havegotten wise to, you know, to
just brand switching and brandhopping to where, say, we have
green fibrants BOGO free, andthen we have ancient nutrition
greens BOGO free, and then maybeanother greens, bogo free.
They'll just kind of migrate towhichever greens is BOGO free.
(30:03):
So there are dangers in some ofthat.
Honestly, I don't even thinkmost retailers need to do the
BOGO free type stuff because Ithink it's a little too
aggressive for most retailers.
Because I'm not, you know, aback If people haven't listened
to the personal I might.
My company we don't have.
We're not a health food store,we are a grocery store with some
(30:24):
health products, but we have awellness set like we almost have
like a mini health food storewellness set in our stores and
so we don't really have our ownseparate social channel.
We don't have our own separatemedia team and marketing access
Like.
So we really are blessed withhaving a lot of people Like we
have about 3000 to 5,000 feetthrough our store today, so we
(30:47):
kind of have to grab them withhey, look at this crazy deal.
Like that's kind of our bestway to to kind of have to grab
them with hey, look at thiscrazy deal.
Like that's kind of our bestway to to kind of get sales is
to have these mind blowing deals.
If you're already having a goodcustomer base and people are
coming to you for wanting thosetherapeutic things and wanting
to hear you, I still think youshould run good promotions.
I don't know if you have to dosomething as crazy as a BOGA
(31:08):
free or I think you should stillplay with it every once in a
while.
But I forgot exactly whatyou're asking.
But there are dangers and youdo see, you still see a lift
because you're buying customersand that's where the brands are
excited about that.
I mean, yeah, you, you, you seea lift, but it's not 20 X in
perpetuity.
No, it goes back down.
I don't have an exact on whereit goes back down to, but, um,
(31:32):
it definitely does help buy thatcustomer for sure.
Tina Smith (31:35):
Yeah, I mean it's.
It's probably building yourbase.
It's not 20 X, but it'sbuilding on top of what you had
before and then the next timeyou climb it's a little bit
bigger.
So you were talking aboutmarketing with that.
So that's interesting.
You're probably in storesignage, that kind of thing
because you're saying you don'thave access to like do
particular promos on socialmedia or through email with
(32:00):
where you are right now.
But I was just thinking aboutthere is that chance and I'm
glad you talked about the brandswitching a little bit of
cannibalism of your own peoplemoving from one thing to another
.
And I would caution people tobe very careful, especially if
it's one of the medium tierbrands that you're talking about
.
Micah, when you start runningpromos on that, I like to
(32:22):
segment out people who are onthose premium brands already.
So if they've been buyingpremium brand X for a protein
powder, I'm not going to sendthem the email promo around the
mid tier or lower tier brandpromo that's running, because I
don't want them to switch.
So we're careful with that.
(32:45):
But I was going to ask ifthere's any other marketing that
you guys do chase.
Chase Ballard (32:48):
It sounds like maybe not, but you're just
trying to catch eyeballs asthey're walking by yeah, no, and
before I segue into that, Iwill say we are very selective
on the types of products we willdo bogo free on, because just
any product isn't doesn't reallywork.
I mean, I've turned down brandsnow and and you know, I may
still do it, but it just I tellthem it's not gonna be as
(33:10):
successful, but typically thoseare very successful on your
brands that you can switch toand have the same effect, like
greens, proteins, collagens,stuff, to where it's maybe a
flavor preference or yeah,there's a little bit of
uniqueness.
But okay, well, this one's 10types and this one's three and
this one's five, and it's likeokay, but it's still pretty much
the same.
When you get into your likeTerry, naturally, well, I take
(33:34):
the, I take Terry, or I take youknow, life seasons, or I take
like having people jump fromproduct to product.
Like that People aren't aswilling to do that they want.
They know that specific formulaworks for them and we I think
as retailers in this space youdon't want to be really be
incentivizing that product flopon those type things.
(33:54):
Like again, our whole goal isreally should be getting people
to trust us with their healthand helping repair their health.
Now, obviously we have to.
You know we're retailers also,so we have to make money and
sell and do stuff in betweenthose things.
But the root of it all isgetting people on kind of a
protocol that works for them.
So that's where things that dosucceed really well in
(34:16):
promotions that are bigger arethose more.
I call them kind of pantrystaples my southern accent flew
in there but some pantry staples.
But some pantry staples likeyour greens, your proteins, your
collagen, mct oil, things likethat.
They're like OK, these arestaples and you can kind of
trade brands pretty easily forthe most part.
(34:37):
Sorry for my brands that don'tthink you can trade brands
easily in that, forgive me.
As far as other marketingthings we do, we do a lot of
in-store signage.
Yeah, that's the biggest thingwe do.
We lean a lot into likepromoting local, promoting top
sellers, uh, staff favorites,things like that, and things you
(34:59):
can do on the shelf like, justbecause you don't have a great
marketing um, team, um or orsocial media or website, I think
you should get one of those andget that going if you have
access to it.
Um, but do a lot of thingsin-store with proper signage as
well.
Tina Smith (35:13):
As long as you have the traffic, I think for sure
yeah.
Micah Corrigan (35:16):
And then one of the things we also include is we
use Save Naturally, so that'sgoing to have the little sticker
.
You put it on the shelf andthen that purchase is subsidized
directly from the productmanufacturer, from the brand
itself, and then that retailergets reimbursed automatically
every two weeks.
So that's been working reallywell for us.
It's a very safe.
Great Naturally runs on it aswell.
(35:38):
So Great Naturally knows thatwe can subsidize that product
directly on the shelf every dayfor that campaign and we know
that that retailer is going toget reimbursed instead of all
the other ways that our industryis currently doing right now
with paper coupons.
But that's a great way that wepartner.
And then also we rely heavily onthe infra flyers.
(36:01):
So that's what we do.
We add on top of that we addthe rewards program and then
we'll do in-store maybe seasonalthings, like other special
things where it's definitelylike a map violation.
So we don't do that online, Uh,but that's more of an in-store
specific promotion like a, youknow, like a BOGO or you know
(36:22):
like a, really, you know.
You know, buy one, get one 50%off.
We don't do that online justbecause that's going to violate,
you know, our partner brands,maps, but you know there's,
there's tons of those types ofthings that we do.
And then with um, you knowshelf talkers, and then with
signage, yeah, it's a, yeah,it's really important.
Amanda Ballard (36:41):
So, micah, I'd love to just elaborate that on
that a little bit further,because it sounds like your,
your store.
Obviously you have have yourunique boutique, therapeutic
kind of mantra that you live by.
I think there are other storesthat probably are very similar
to you and that they're likewe're super consult.
We have a very consultativeapproach.
(37:01):
We carry these high end linesthat maybe they don't offer
these great discounts.
So like, why should we discount?
So how can you?
Is there a fine line betweenhaving these more premium brands
and discounting?
Does it cheapen the brand ordoes it just make the customer
(37:24):
happy?
Micah Corrigan (37:26):
Again it goes back to the erosion of trust.
I don't want to oversell aprice or product for a customer.
I just don't want to do that.
I think that Otis is on thebrand too, from the last podcast
.
Just make sure you're sellingproducts that don't make you
look bad.
Just make sure that you're notselling brands that are doing
(37:51):
50% off, 60% off, mat violationsbehind your back.
Dtc Don't allow that.
And then, having accepted that,then you know work with your
brands, with you know like thepremium brands, when you're.
I guess what your point is islike with the margins, right,
just make sure that that marginis healthy enough for you to
(38:13):
afford high quality service andhigh quality staff that can help
your customers.
That's the main thing.
It's very difficult to havehigh quality service and staff
and sell everything at a verycheap mass market product and a
mass market margin.
That doesn't really work.
So I think, finding thosepremium quality products that
(38:34):
you can make a healthy margin atthe map every single day, and
then quality products that youcan make a healthy margin at the
map every single day, and thenfrom there you can negotiate
promotions.
I would look at it that way andwe ended the last podcast with,
like, there's four like gamesthat we have in this industry.
Right, there's the EDLP game,which and I think this is kind
(38:54):
of how Chase is also looking atthe different tiers right, you
have the EDLP game, you have theline drive game, you have the
volume game and then you havethe random discount games or the
seasonal, and those are myleast favorite.
I was talking with a brand aboutthat and I was like when is
your Ashwagandha going to be onsale next?
And they had no idea.
They said maybe Q4, could be Q3.
(39:14):
We're not sure yet.
And so as a retailer, I'mtrying to allocate my funds for
the entire year.
I'm trying to figure that out.
I have a budget.
I don't know when I'm going tobuy it next.
So those types of brands whereI can't figure out my margins,
it's always like a guess.
We really steer away from thosebrands.
(39:35):
And then the EDLP is the goldengoose.
Many brands, they can't affordto do an EDLP 50 margin.
Maybe they do 45, maybe 40,maybe 35.
There's different types, maybe30.
There's different types oftiers like that.
And then there's two other onesthe volume and then the line
drive.
I personally Everyone does linedrives drives.
(39:57):
People are very used to linedrives.
I personally don't like linedrives that much for me, just
because when I sell a productlike, the whole point is to grow
a brand.
Right, we want to grow a brand,we want to gain that trust, we
want to, like, buy new customers, like tina said, and then I
sell out and then I don't knowhow to order again.
Now I have to reorder and it's20% margin.
(40:17):
What do I do?
So I prefer volume, becausevolume, I can go to bed at night
knowing that the next day I canalways order at that discount.
I just have to do a little bitof volume and then from there
you have to figure out is thevolume gross?
Is it 72?
Is it 144?
Is it 60, 36?
Is it 2000 units?
(40:38):
Is it a pallet?
What is that?
That's going to be anegotiation that the retailer
has to do again with the brand.
But reorders are dependent onitem movement when the brand
sets it up as a volume.
If the brand sets up theirentire promotion as a line drive
, then reorders are dependent ona random gregorian calendar
(41:00):
month, which is typically expowest.
You have expo east, which is nolonger expo east, you know what
I mean, and then you have, youknow, the two other shows, um,
three other shows likethroughout the year, and then a
lot of people are kind ofleapfrogging to that next
promotion.
Um, so just make sure likethat's just a lot of different
types of promotions that you canwork directly with the brand.
(41:20):
But the whole point is to makesure, like Chase was saying,
make sure that there's at leasta healthy margin on an EDLP or
not EDLP volume, just everydayway that you can buy that
product.
Make sure that that's a healthymargin and then from there do
those like discounts that likeChase was talking about.
You know, buy one, get one.
You know, map off and that willhelp grow the brand and brands
(41:45):
really want to partner withstores that follow through with
that.
And then you sell it out andthen you can buy it again.
You don't have to wait tillExpo West to buy it again, you
can buy it again tomorrow.
That's what brands really wantand I think that's kind of the
(42:05):
method that we as retailers needto follow as well.
Amanda Ballard (42:06):
So we're running close to the end of our time,
but I wanted to make sure Iasked this question.
So a lot of retailers are kindof married to their pricing and
their promotional calendars,structures, all of that.
One of the objections that wehear is you know, maybe we could
switch to map on some brands,but like our customers have
(42:29):
always been used to this, likethis is how we've always done
our discounts.
You know, an everyday low pricesounds great, but they, you
know they're used to seeing oursignage look a certain way or
our discounts look a certain way.
How would you encourageretailers to take ownership of
those changes, given that theyshould be a positive for their
(42:49):
customers?
How do they communicate that inan effective way?
Micah Corrigan (42:54):
Well, first I want to say, like the feet, like
timmy and timmy is a fictionalcharacter, right that has a
smartphone and that will slowlystart showing his or her parents
.
You know timmy, his parents,right, like that.
You know the.
You know they can buy thesesupplements cheaper somewhere
else.
So I think it's like a band-aid.
(43:17):
I mean it's like it's it's atough, you know, bandaid to like
rip off right away, but I think, over time it's like an
investment.
It's taking, you know, twosteps backward to take three
steps forward.
I think if you want to remainrelevant and if you want to, you
know, stand top of mind.
I think it's like a transitionthat you slowly have to move
forward with and customers, overtime, will get used to it.
(43:44):
We used to organize our storeby a brand and because for us it
was better, because for us itwas like easier to order that
way, but it was terrible for thecustomer.
You know vitamin D was in, youknow.
You know seven different aisles, so so it's, it's so it's
what's better for the customerat the end of the day.
That's how I would look at it.
Chase Ballard (44:02):
I was sidetracked there but I was looking up the
exact verbiage on a quote.
There's a number of quotes outthere, but I'm just blunt with
other retailers and they maylike it or not, but honestly,
one of the quotes that I like isBenjamin Franklin.
It says when you're finishedchanging, you're finished.
So if you're married to yourprograms, like my BOGO free
program that I have right now, Ihope I'm not running that in
(44:25):
six years.
That's not good on me.
Like I need to be changingstuff.
Like if you're stopped changingthen you're dead.
So yeah, and on that note.
Tina Smith (44:48):
That's pretty much die, yeah, uh, I think I mean
there's a lot of truth in thatwe're messing around, but
there's a lot of truth in thatbecause change is inevitable.
So you're in.
One of the things that I talkabout is that law of entropy,
like if you stand still, you'reactually going backwards,
because there's constantexpansion and change.
Chase Ballard (45:04):
Well, I think that, right there, what you just
said is our entire industry.
Half of our stores are stuck in2008.
Half of our I'm not evenkidding by half, it probably may
be more Half are stuck in 2008.
Half of ours I'm not evenkidding by half, it probably may
be more.
Half are stuck in 2008.
They're still doing superTuesday.
Sorry, if that offended half ofyou, you should be very
(45:26):
offended.
Um change get better pricing.
Tina Smith (45:31):
Well, I mean, that's really part of our mission here
, though, is to help people.
It is part of it is they.
They're not out and about andin touch with, maybe, whatever
else is happening in the retailworld, number one and number two
in this industry.
So part of the reason that, um,we're bringing you guys to the
table again and again is becausemaybe this might be the last
(45:54):
time now.
Amanda Ballard (45:56):
When the complete flight is funneling in.
Chase Ballard (45:59):
I think people need to wake up and like I'll
help any retailer, I'll give myphone out to any retailer.
But like we've got to change,you've got to grow with the
times and you know it's we'vehad.
We've had 16 years now, or whenthe smart I mean what social
media came out 2000,.
I don't know it's.
We've had a lot of time.
I love this industry more thananything.
(46:21):
I want to keep it healthy andsurviving and there's a lot of
stores struggling and dying whenthis is the time when natural
product health is the highestit's ever been and it's only
growing and getting higher.
But people are turning toTikTok and Amazon and not the
neighborhood health food storethat's been there for 30 years
and that's a problem.
Amanda Ballard (46:40):
Yeah, so let's fix it and change together.
So awesome.
Well, thank you guys so muchfor your time Always a pleasure
and we'll see you guys next time.
Thanks so much for listening tothe Natural Products Marketer
podcast.
We hope you found this episodeto be super helpful.
Make sure you check out theshow notes for any of those
valuable resources that wementioned on today's episode.
Tina Smith (47:02):
And, before you go, we would love for you to give us
a review.
Follow, like and subscribe onApple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube
or wherever you're listeningtoday, and make sure you join us
for our next episode, where wegive you more marketing tips so
that you can reach more peopleand change more lives.
Well, I think that, right there, what you just
said is our entire industry.
Half of our stores are stuck in2008.
Half of our I'm not evenkidding by half, probably, maybe
more half are stuck in 2008.
They're still doing SuperTuesday.
Sorry if that offended half ofyou.
(00:20):
You should be very offended.
Tina Smith (00:25):
Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer
Podcast.
Amanda Ballard (00:33):
I'm Tina and I'm Amanda, and we're here to make
marketing easier for naturalproducts businesses so you can
reach more people and changemore lives.
Hey everyone, welcome back tothe Natural Products Marketer
Podcast.
We are so excited to have ChaseBallard and Micah Corrigan back
with us so soon, so thank youguys so much for joining us
again.
Micah Corrigan (00:52):
Thanks for having us.
Tina Smith (00:54):
Thanks.
Super popular podcast last timewe got a lot of feedback for it
from it, so very excited tochat with you guys again.
Amanda Ballard (01:04):
Yeah.
So if you didn't listen to partone, I highly encourage you to
go back.
Even just pause this episode.
Go back and listen to part one,come back and listen to part
two and it'll just be a muchricher conversation.
But there's going to be lots ofgreat insights for you today as
well.
So just to hop right in, guys, Iknow we talked a lot about
(01:26):
becoming the influencer in yourcommunity Last time.
We talked a lot about mappolicy and how you guys
implement that in your pricingstrategy and it made me think
that I wanted to do a deep diveinto pricing and promotional
strategies today.
Because we run into this withalmost every single client when
(01:47):
we start working with them,because we're deep diving into
their finances and, you know,looking at how, what their store
mixes and all of theirinventory and what their margins
are, and inevitably it comes upwhere we find that something's
off with their pricing model andso we're trying to figure out
how to best navigate thatconversation with them.
(02:08):
So I'm selfishly really excitedto just pick your brains today,
because I think you have a lotof wisdom to share in this
regard.
So I want to kind of just painta little bit of a picture of
what we're seeing as the mostcommon situations that we've run
into when we've been workingwith stores and maybe you have
(02:28):
other things that you would addto it, but what we're finding
the most common is stores areeither pricing at full MSRP,
with just occasional sales Maybethey have like one or two items
or one or two lines on sale atany given time.
Option two is they price somelines at MAP, but they're
(02:51):
marketing them as being on sale,and then they're on sale all
the time, and then the vastmajority of their products are
still at full MSRP, as well asoccasional sales line drives,
things of that nature, butthey're still only getting close
to MAP at that point.
And then the third situationwe're running into is stores
(03:13):
that are pricing at MAP almostall the time.
However, they don't do extrapromotions on top of that.
So I'd love to kind of justthrow all of that out there and
get your thoughts and feedbackon what you know pros and cons
are of those differentstrategies, If you would do
something completely differentand kind of how you think
through your pricing strategy.
(03:34):
I'll start with you, Micah.
Micah Corrigan (03:37):
Yeah.
So I think that pricing thingsat full MSRP is just a bad
practice as a retailer.
When I'll visit other stores,I'll see products that are sold
at full MSRP, and what it does,in my opinion, is that it just
reinforces this idea tocustomers that shopping in
(03:59):
stores is more expensive thanAmazon, and so it hurts me as a
retailer when other fellowretailers are pricing it at full
MSRP.
So we're trying to break thathabit of shopping on Amazon.
There's this idea that Amazonis always going to be cheaper,
and it's really not.
But if we continue pricingthings at full MSRP, then that's
(04:21):
, you know, becoming a realityfor customers.
So I want to break that habit.
And so, you know, we priceeverything at MAP at our stores
and then from there we negotiatediscounts and promotions, and
then you know, we have otherways to promote further than
that.
But for us, we're pricingeverything at MSRP when a brand
(04:43):
has an MSRP price.
For us, we're pricingeverything at MSRP when a brand
has an MSRP price, but they'reselling it at MAP.
Map is the new MSRP.
Msrp really doesn't meananything, it's just a made up
number.
I'll give you an example.
I was purchasing a dishwasher alittle bit ago and I looked
online and everything was thesame price, and so in our
(05:05):
industry we're really focused onmap, but in other industries
it's called a UPP, a universalprice point.
So if you ever bought a TV or adishwasher and appliance, a lot
of those are the same pricesand then from there they have
other ways to promote it.
Like you get a new, you buy themattress and then you get the
bed frame, you know, for free,or you know the manufacturer
gives, you know, an addedincentive from there.
(05:27):
But yeah, I'm really focused onselling everything at MAP, also
known as a UPP.
Amanda Ballard (05:33):
Yeah, chase, what would you add to that?
Chase Ballard (05:37):
Yeah, no, I agree with everything Micah said.
I don't I mean I don't win anyfriends with saying this, but
like, I think, like honestly, ifyou're selling an MSRP, like
you need to do a lot of workbecause I think you're, you're
pretty much I think you'reyou're out of business.
If you're, you sell MSRPbecause you're going either I'm
(06:00):
going to move into town orsomeone like me is going to move
into town and put you out ofbusiness, or Amazon is just
going to slowly kill you andthen you also make the industry
look bad, like Mike has said, ofwhere now people think always
shopping in a store is this badpricing?
So it's really like get withthe program.
I mean, the battle of map waswon and most brands if you are a
(06:23):
halfway decent buyer and youknow can talk to brands and buy
on promotion and things likethat, you can still make 40, 50,
55 percent on a lot of thesebrands and sell it map every day
and that's that's a good margin.
You know the days of 70 percentmargin, 65 percent, that's not.
(06:46):
That doesn't exist and it mayexist for you, but you're
probably not moving volume andyou're probably not making money
.
And the last we checked.
I mean, the thing we say a lothere is we don't take percent to
the bank, you take money to thebank.
So it's how much are youselling?
It's like, yeah, okay, you, youknow people need to start
looking at how much money theyneed to operate, not what margin
they need to operate.
So, yeah, I think just kind ofgetting back to retail, of buy
(07:11):
something and turn it and sellit and have fun doing it.
The other thing I would say,though, is the thought escaped
me, but when it comes to beingon sale, so I price at MAP every
day on everything I have, and Ithink everybody should and then
(07:33):
we run promotions on top of MAP, and we have to talk to vendors
and explain what we're doing,and usually, when we tell them
that we're pricing it at mapevery day and we want to do
something extra, they're prettywilling to go along with us.
If we don't communicate that,then yeah, they're like well, I
don't know if I can do that, butonce they find out we're
pricing it at map and we need tocompete with Amazon, they're
(07:55):
pretty willing to work with us.
And the thing about saying it'son sale and it's Matt Price,
though, that you know, the wholecrux of this industry, I mean
the most important thing in thisentire industry when it comes
to customers is getting yourcustomers to trust you.
(08:17):
I'm going to start calling themtrust-mers.
Micah Corrigan (08:22):
It's a new word, Chase.
Chase Ballard (08:24):
Made it up on the fly.
The goal is to get people totrust you with their health, but
really it's just get them totrust you.
If you're sitting here sayingit's on sale, look at this sale
30% off, that's Amazon'severyday price.
That's not really a sale.
I see what you did there andthen the next time.
(08:45):
Here's the problem.
When you do actually run a selland you hopefully start pricing
a map every day and youactually do have a cool sell on
top of map, maybe they don'tbelieve you or you know.
So trust is a very importantthing and you can lose trust
very quickly with customers andthat should be your most sacred
(09:05):
thing as your customer.
Micah Corrigan (09:08):
Did it again.
It's a thing now.
It's a thing now.
Chase Ballard (09:12):
Your customer's trust, but that should be your
most important asset.
I think so, yeah.
Micah Corrigan (09:18):
Yeah, and I just want to add to Chase's point.
We call it the Amazon suggestedretail price.
That's the map Amazon suggestedretail price.
That's the map Amazon suggestedretail price.
So I mean that should just bethe EDLP, that should just be
the everyday price.
How you market some retailers.
They want to take the made upnumber and take 20% off.
(09:39):
I think that's fine.
It just shows value like aneveryday value, of course.
I think that's fine.
It just shows value like aneveryday value, of course, and
that's what we do.
But then, on top of that,customers at the end of the day,
customers they just have theirphone, they have their apps and
(10:02):
they're looking.
It takes them one second.
It's not like the 80s or the90s where you had to drive 20
minutes to the next store and 30minutes to the next store and
then price compare and then calland what happened?
In a matter of seconds they canshop 10 retailers online and
they should all be seeing thesame price point and then from
there, however, that e-tailer orthat retailer provides extra
value.
That is going to be therelationship in terms of like,
(10:24):
promotions and price.
That's important.
So, like for us, we we relypretty heavily on our rewards
program and that's how we um,you know, give you know, besides
running promotions specificallyin store, uh, we really rely on
our rewards program to add thatadded value.
So, like at our customers, youknow, you know, you know they
(10:51):
get 1% cash back on everythingthey buy and then they can use
that 1% cash back towardsanything on the next purchase
and then we'll do like addedextra deals, you know, 10% cash
back, 15%, 20, 25, 30.
And that really adds up.
I mean you're you sell aproduct 30.
And that really adds up.
I mean you're, you sell aproduct A lot of times they can
accrue, you know, $5 or $10right in that purchase and then
(11:11):
that also helps them come backinto the store and then they can
use that towards the nextpurchase and that kind of keeps
keeps the money kind ofrevolving in the same system.
Chase Ballard (11:20):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
For any store that has thecapability to do a loyalty
rewards program.
I think that's the home run ofhome runs.
I guess that would be a grandslam.
That is the way to do it, andespecially if you can leverage
that into your e-commerce, tolike yes, yes, yes, yes, because
(11:50):
then now you have theire-commerce shopping, they're not
going to want to buy anythingon Amazon, even if, you know,
because we have that problem, wedon't have a loyalty program
and we don't even have ane-commerce.
Where I'm at here and you knowwe'll talk to people because
everybody shops on Amazon.
Amazon's a.
Everybody uses Amazon, or mostpeople do, and you know people
(12:12):
go, oh, yeah, I just picked upsome of those on Amazon.
They're working great, thoughThanks for recommending them.
Well, without having thatloyalty program or that, those
you know the, yeah, the rewards,those, um, you know the uh,
yeah, the the rewards, um, wecan't.
You know.
We can kind of say, oh, hey,you know, make sure you can keep
supporting us, type stuff.
But, um, but really, when youhave the reward points or the
(12:34):
cash back, you can really, itjust makes sense.
So, yeah, that's.
That's, I think, a reallysuccessful strategy.
Micah Corrigan (12:41):
Yeah, like when, when a customer is trying to
decide, you know what, what'sthe difference?
Right, they have it, you know,they have it at um town $10 at
the retailer.
They have it at $10 on Amazon.
They have it at $10 on a largeother e-tailer.
What's the difference?
Well, now I can get it same dayat that store.
Right now I don't have to, youknow, feel bad that I could save
(13:01):
an extra 10% or 20% on Amazon.
So that's a win.
You already have that physicallocation benefit.
And then the second benefit,yeah is is I was I was just
doing this like a little bit agotoo.
I was comparing, you know, aproduct between two e-tailers
and, and one of the e-tailershad a better rewards program and
fostered loyalty and I'm like,okay, well, if I'm going to
(13:24):
invest in this product, you know, and I'm going to keep
purchasing that product, well, Imean, that is like a no brainer
.
You know I can accrue rewards,you know, every time I purchased
this.
So you know, I, I, I think thatis that's definitely like um
people, that you know peopleshould definitely look into that
, if they don't already have aloyalty program, to start
(13:44):
investing in one like that.
Chase Ballard (13:46):
Well, and what's cool is, I've never done rewards
that high, but that's what'scool is a 20% off sale.
It just doesn't ring that well.
But you say 20% cash back, it'slike holy.
What it's like excuse me, thatjust sounds insane.
And that's really what you needto do as a retailer is get your
(14:06):
customers to stop, and theirjaw should drop and be like are
you kidding me Really?
So yeah, that has a really goodring to it, and I mean you know
at previous retailers that wehad a program like that and it
was funny.
You'd have customers that justwanted to save their money and
like they're like no, no, I'msaving it up, I'm gonna come in
here and buy the whole store,I'm gonna save it up.
(14:27):
And there'd be like people withlike 600 bucks and it was like
I mean, okay, keep doing that,that's fine.
Tina Smith (14:35):
Well, that's another thing.
That's um, that's kind ofimportant at the checkout, like
training your people at thecheckout to have that
conversation Like, do you wantto use your, your, your rewards
right now?
You've got this much moneybanked.
So I've seen some retailers dothat very well and I've seen
I've been in other retailerswhere it prints it out on the
(14:56):
receipt but there was noconversation that happened.
No one reminded me that I justearned more rewards.
No one was thanking me forshopping.
That's a whole point point ofthe experience where you can
make your customers more.
You can make them intotrustmers.
Micah Corrigan (15:13):
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, customers, I love it.
We're going to turn that into anatural progression, like we had
.
You know, we had one customerwho like swore up and down, he's
never joining a rewards program, he doesn't want to do it, and
um, it took about two years orthree years, um, for customers
in front of him in line at oh,$10 off, $15 off, $20 off, $5
(15:37):
off, and it wore him down somuch he's like, okay, fine, I'll
do it.
He was so tired of seeingeveryone save so much money in
front of him.
You know, and there's ethicslike we don't, we don't sell our
customer data.
Obviously, you know we want tokeep that within, you know our
ecosystem, but it just kind ofkeeps the dollars flowing inside
(15:57):
our business, which has beenvery helpful.
Tina Smith (16:01):
Yeah, key key for trust is to have a conversation
about how you're using people'sdata, and some people aren't
asking immediately, but it'snice, when they go to look at
the loyalty program, that theycan say, oh wait, they're not
selling this to anyone.
Amanda Ballard (16:20):
I want to ask, you know stores listening to
this and maybe they fall in thatMSRP camp and that's, that's
their comfort zone.
The thought of reducing theirprices you know 20 percent to be
a map every day scares the crapout of them.
What advice would you give to astore like that that you know?
(16:49):
Here's what you're saying.
Like, you guys are two reallysuccessful retailers doing this
every single day and they, youknow, maybe only do map pricing
a few times a year per line.
What, what?
What does that transition looklike?
How do you do that in a waythat isn't so terrifying?
Micah Corrigan (17:02):
Well, first, first of all, I want to add that
it's slowly going to erode thetrust.
Well, first, first of all, Iwant to add that, um, it's
slowly going to erode the trust.
Like, you know, you're sellingto that customer but that
customer has a son or a daughterand that son or daughter is
online and over time, that childis going to say hey mommy, hey
(17:22):
daddy, you can save $10, $20.
How many times are you buyingthis supplement?
You know, 12 times a year.
I mean you could save a hundreddollars right there, $120,
right there, and then youmultiply that by.
You know, you know twoprotocols, three other protocols
for the protocols.
You know six.
You know brands.
I mean, it's just a ton ofsavings.
(17:43):
And slowly, people are startingto calculate that I'm like, why
am I spending this much money?
It's the same product andthere's like that's another
conversation if it's actuallythe same product.
But you know, let's just say,for the sake of this, that it is
the same product.
Then that's going to slowly,you know, create a bad taste in
that person's mouth becausethey're going to be thinking, oh
, like, what else are they doingto me?
(18:03):
You know, how else do I?
Am I getting like cheated.
So I think that trust is goingto slowly erode.
But I, you know I would juststart slow.
You know you could just do Iwould.
Well, okay, I would first findyour partner brands.
So there's going to be somebrands that, like you, can't do
it and you have to decide ifit's worth it to carry those
(18:25):
brands.
And there's going to be manybrands like Chase brought up
that if you talk to them and yousay, hey, I want to price it at
a competitive price every day,most partner brands are going to
be willing to play some kind ofball with you.
I think the brands are justtired of people padding their
margins with 60%%, you know, andit's not good for the whole
(18:47):
industry like that.
But I would start slow.
I'd find the brands that can doit.
I'd find the brands that youknow that are partner brands and
I would slowly start makingthose a priority and ordering up
on those, giving those moreshelf space, promoting those,
those more shelf space,promoting those.
You know you don't need to have.
(19:08):
You know 70 varieties ofvitamin C, you know you can
slowly start whittling that downto priority or to partner
brands and then making surethose partner brands can give
you the margins at the map price.
Tina Smith (19:17):
So let's talk about that for a minute.
Micah and Chase, we can comeback to you if you wanted to
chime in on that.
But I hear a lot of times likefocus.
So you're talking about partnerbrands.
Focus is helpful, even in theamount of choice that you're
giving the customer.
But what is the right amount?
(19:38):
Because we hear things likeokay, well, some people aren't
going to try a protein powderunless it's, you know, a certain
dollar amount or less.
So what are those price points?
Are we looking for something inhigh, medium, low range?
Are we looking for 14 kind ofskews Like what?
What does that look like?
Micah Corrigan (19:59):
Sure, yeah, um, I think the high, medium, low is
a good strategy.
Um, I You're already a physicalretailer.
I would lean more into thehigher end.
That's just my personal opinion, or at least that works with
our market.
People can buy the crappiestproducts that they want online
(20:20):
already.
You're there to solve the needsof the customer.
Make sure you're providinghigh-end quality service,
high-end quality products.
I would go with the higher end.
Insert maybe some middle brandsthat are there for
price-sensitive customers, ofcourse, but I would lean already
into the higher end because ourindustry, most of our retailers
(20:43):
, are very niche.
Right, we're not in the massmarket.
The mass market does a greatjob at selling mass market
products and mass marketproducts are really great at low
potencies, fewer servings,lesser quality ingredients.
They're they're focused ongetting that price point and I
(21:03):
think if you compete directly inthat lane, it's not, it's not a
winning strategy In my opinion.
Um, I think the lane is goingto be more in the unique
boutique therapeutic lane.
It's not, it's not a winningstrategy in my opinion.
Um, I think the lane is goingto be more in the unique
boutique therapeutic lane.
Tina Smith (21:15):
Yeah, chase, I felt like you were about to say
something when he was talkingabout your partner brands.
Chase Ballard (21:21):
Oh, I don't remember what I was going to say
.
Um, I did have a.
It's funny.
I had a funny story that cameup the other day of talking
about these brands andnegotiating with them, with
partner brands, and it was um, Iwas asking for a deeper
discount to do something crazy.
I forget what it was, but, um,it was funny.
It cracked me up because theysaid, oh, I think it went, got
(21:45):
up to their regional or their ussales or the, the, the bigger
dog.
They're like, oh, it's chase.
Well, yeah, we know he's goingto pass on the price, just do it
, because there's so many storesthat don't pass on the price
and we're tired of dealing withthem.
And it was just like oh well,thank you, other retailers for
helping me get a better deal.
(22:05):
So, um, but yeah, that was justa funny story that there,
apparently, there's a lot ofretailers that aren't passing on
these deals and it's just.
I mean, that's where, again,when we talk about negotiating
with these partner brands, mostof them are just desperate for
someone to actually execute apromotion and pass it on, like
(22:26):
that's really all they'rewanting.
It sounds like like it's likethey're not asking for a ton,
it's like you're just going tofollow through on the deal.
That's great, so I didn'treally have much to add other
than that, though.
Tina Smith (22:37):
That's a perfect segue into promotions.
Tell us a little bit more likewhat's your strategy around that
.
When do you start doing them?
How do you make the choice ofwho, how often?
That kind of thing thing.
Chase Ballard (22:50):
Yeah, I mean, you know typically brands.
You know a typical brand is youget an everyday price or you
should negotiate for an everydayprice where you can make money
at map.
You know, for example,depending on the brand, you
should be making anywherebetween 35% margin up to 50%
margin at map, depending on.
(23:11):
You know volume, relationshipand um types of products.
But you know.
But really then from there, youknow most brands are going to
run a line drive on top of theireveryday discount a few times a
year.
Or you know you can negotiatecertain things.
But you know, just execute yourpromotions around that.
And you know I'm notorious.
I don't know if I'm notorious.
(23:32):
I'd say other people do it too.
But I don't like falling intopromotional calendars.
It's like I kind of use thoseas a guideline and then I just
kind of say like okay, well,don't hold me accountable to any
of that.
But you know, let let's worktogether and let's do my custom.
You know, this month I want todo this, this month I want to do
this, this month I want to dothis, and it works out pretty
well.
And I don't know you.
(23:52):
Just, I don't know.
For promotions I don't.
I don't let brands reallydictate what they want to do for
promotions.
I kind of say here's what Iwant to do, because this is what
excites me.
It kind of goes back to what Iwas saying last podcast of like
you need to be the owner, likedon't.
If it doesn't excite, you,don't do it.
Like you know, thank, thankgoodness, so many of these
(24:14):
brands are going away from.
They used to do this a lot andI think most of them are
stopping finally, I think, butthis whole like oh well, this
month we're having our Bvitamins on sale and on next
month it's our vitamin D, andthen then, oh, next month it's
like just stop, like just doeverything or don't do anything.
And I think we're finally kindof getting back to it's just a
(24:35):
pure line drive instead of likecategories and subcategories and
stuff like that.
But I don't even know why I goton that point.
But yeah, just make sure,dictate to what the brand,
dictate to the brands what youare excited about, what you want
to do, and execute that.
And I give a lot of the brandsideas of like you know, I tell
them like listen, come up withthe ideas.
(24:58):
Here's the margin I need to hit.
But as long as I hit thismargin.
Sometimes on a promotion, we'redoing a margin of like 20% 25%
net margin.
But you know what?
20% 25% net margin.
But you know what, if we didn'tdo that promotion and we sold
it at 40% margin, maybe we bringin $500 in sales on that item
(25:19):
or that brand that month.
I mean $500 in margin thatmonth.
Doing that promotion, we maybring in $3,000.
Stop thinking about percent ofmargin and think about dollars.
What's exciting, what arepeople going to be excited about
?
And just about dollars, likewhat's exciting.
Amanda Ballard (25:35):
What are people going to be excited about?
And just do that?
I don't know.
Well, and I think that that'san interesting point, because I
know we've talked about this onprevious episodes as it relates
to co-op, and I think the theconcept is the same If you are
going to a brand and you're like, hey, I have this idea around
this marketing activity or thispromotion, or both together,
what do we need to do to makethat happen?
Like they're going to be superexcited to work with you.
(25:57):
If you're just like, okay, whatcan I get from you?
They're not going to be asexcited to work with you.
But if you are taking theinitiative and coming up with
these ideas and thinking outsideof the box, they're going to be
way more likely to say yes toeven the craziest of ideas.
And they're going to share thatwith other customers too,
(26:19):
because you know that's again,the beauty of this industry is
hey, chase is doing this thingdown in Florida.
Would you want to try that inyour store, micah?
Like that's, you know thatworked really, really well, so
it can inspire other retailersto get ideas and then kind of
just set off this domino effectof success for everybody.
Chase Ballard (26:42):
Well, we started doing a thing about two or three
years ago.
It was this crazy idea.
It started with AncientNutrition, I believe.
It was buy one, get one free atMatt Price and we were like
wait, can this actually work?
And you know, we put pen topaper and it kind of worked out
(27:04):
and we started doing that.
They actually took thatnationwide to a bunch of select
retailers and copied thatprogram.
So, yeah, they took thisprogram to other retailers and
they started launching it there.
They actually got their producthigher up in spins.
They called me and thanked meabout that.
But anyways, what we starteddoing from there is we tried it
(27:26):
with some other brands and we'relike, okay, hey, this is kind
of working, here's how we'redoing it, here's kind of the
magic strings we're pulling.
And then we started doing itwith some other brands and we're
like, okay, hey, this is kindof working, here's how we're
doing it, here's kind of themagic strings we're pulling.
And then we started doing itwith two, two or three other
brands.
And now we've got it kind of sostreamlined to where, when I
meet with a brand, I'd saybasically, here's our package
tiers, to where, if you know, wesell it map every day.
So I have to have this margin,or you're not coming in the
(27:46):
store.
And then the second one is likeall right, and then we do buy
one, get one half off, you know,at map, and we need this margin
to do that.
Your lift's going to be aboutthree to five X.
They're like okay, that's cool.
And then it's like all right,and then we have our BOGO free.
Now that's where they're likeholy crap, what?
(28:11):
Like 50x?
Well, you know maybe, but 20xis usually pretty much
guaranteed.
And so they now want to workhard to get to that.
So I kind of give them theparameters and say here's the
game we're playing, here's thetools you need to play in this
game.
And then they work hard to comeup with ideas to do that.
(28:31):
So you kind of put them to workand say here, here's the,
here's the parameters, like,have fun.
And that's worked really well.
And so now we're on year two orthree of that and, um, I used
to have to work and scrap andclaw for every like to get those
bogo frees going.
Now they just kind of fall inmy lap because the brands
understand where I need to beand kind of understand the rules
(28:53):
.
Tina Smith (28:53):
So okay, you said a lot of numbers there and I just
want to talk about them again,because they're big.
Like you're talking about bignumbers, and the thing I was
thinking about when you weretalking about promotions and
doing like really big deals isyou're trying to buy new buyers,
(29:13):
like you're trying to movepeople into the category who
haven't tried it before yes,people that are there enjoying
some benefit of it too, butyou're not necessarily doing
that for them.
So you're trying to buy newpeople.
So my question is if you get tothat 20 X with a BOGO, how long
does that last?
Does it stay at 20 X, or is it?
(29:34):
You know you're here it liftsto 20 and then it drops back
down, but not lower.
What does that look like?
Chase Ballard (29:40):
Yeah, no, it's definitely.
Um, there's, there'srepercussions to that and you
know, some of our customers havegotten wise to, you know, to
just brand switching and brandhopping to where, say, we have
green fibrants BOGO free, andthen we have ancient nutrition
greens BOGO free, and then maybeanother greens, bogo free.
They'll just kind of migrate towhichever greens is BOGO free.
(30:03):
So there are dangers in some ofthat.
Honestly, I don't even thinkmost retailers need to do the
BOGO free type stuff because Ithink it's a little too
aggressive for most retailers.
Because I'm not, you know, aback If people haven't listened
to the personal I might.
My company we don't have.
We're not a health food store,we are a grocery store with some
(30:24):
health products, but we have awellness set like we almost have
like a mini health food storewellness set in our stores and
so we don't really have our ownseparate social channel.
We don't have our own separatemedia team and marketing access
Like.
So we really are blessed withhaving a lot of people Like we
have about 3000 to 5,000 feetthrough our store today, so we
(30:47):
kind of have to grab them withhey, look at this crazy deal.
Like that's kind of our bestway to to kind of have to grab
them with hey, look at thiscrazy deal.
Like that's kind of our bestway to to kind of get sales is
to have these mind blowing deals.
If you're already having a goodcustomer base and people are
coming to you for wanting thosetherapeutic things and wanting
to hear you, I still think youshould run good promotions.
I don't know if you have to dosomething as crazy as a BOGA
(31:08):
free or I think you should stillplay with it every once in a
while.
But I forgot exactly whatyou're asking.
But there are dangers and youdo see, you still see a lift
because you're buying customersand that's where the brands are
excited about that.
I mean, yeah, you, you, you seea lift, but it's not 20 X in
perpetuity.
No, it goes back down.
I don't have an exact on whereit goes back down to, but, um,
(31:32):
it definitely does help buy thatcustomer for sure.
Tina Smith (31:35):
Yeah, I mean it's.
It's probably building yourbase.
It's not 20 X, but it'sbuilding on top of what you had
before and then the next timeyou climb it's a little bit
bigger.
So you were talking aboutmarketing with that.
So that's interesting.
You're probably in storesignage, that kind of thing
because you're saying you don'thave access to like do
particular promos on socialmedia or through email with
(32:00):
where you are right now.
But I was just thinking aboutthere is that chance and I'm
glad you talked about the brandswitching a little bit of
cannibalism of your own peoplemoving from one thing to another
.
And I would caution people tobe very careful, especially if
it's one of the medium tierbrands that you're talking about
.
Micah, when you start runningpromos on that, I like to
(32:22):
segment out people who are onthose premium brands already.
So if they've been buyingpremium brand X for a protein
powder, I'm not going to sendthem the email promo around the
mid tier or lower tier brandpromo that's running, because I
don't want them to switch.
So we're careful with that.
(32:45):
But I was going to ask ifthere's any other marketing that
you guys do chase.
Chase Ballard (32:48):
It sounds like maybe not, but you're just
trying to catch eyeballs asthey're walking by yeah, no, and
before I segue into that, Iwill say we are very selective
on the types of products we willdo bogo free on, because just
any product isn't doesn't reallywork.
I mean, I've turned down brandsnow and and you know, I may
still do it, but it just I tellthem it's not gonna be as
(33:10):
successful, but typically thoseare very successful on your
brands that you can switch toand have the same effect, like
greens, proteins, collagens,stuff, to where it's maybe a
flavor preference or yeah,there's a little bit of
uniqueness.
But okay, well, this one's 10types and this one's three and
this one's five, and it's likeokay, but it's still pretty much
the same.
When you get into your likeTerry, naturally, well, I take
(33:34):
the, I take Terry, or I take youknow, life seasons, or I take
like having people jump fromproduct to product.
Like that People aren't aswilling to do that they want.
They know that specific formulaworks for them and we I think
as retailers in this space youdon't want to be really be
incentivizing that product flopon those type things.
(33:54):
Like again, our whole goal isreally should be getting people
to trust us with their healthand helping repair their health.
Now, obviously we have to.
You know we're retailers also,so we have to make money and
sell and do stuff in betweenthose things.
But the root of it all isgetting people on kind of a
protocol that works for them.
So that's where things that dosucceed really well in
(34:16):
promotions that are bigger arethose more.
I call them kind of pantrystaples my southern accent flew
in there but some pantry staples.
But some pantry staples likeyour greens, your proteins, your
collagen, mct oil, things likethat.
They're like OK, these arestaples and you can kind of
trade brands pretty easily forthe most part.
(34:37):
Sorry for my brands that don'tthink you can trade brands
easily in that, forgive me.
As far as other marketingthings we do, we do a lot of
in-store signage.
Yeah, that's the biggest thingwe do.
We lean a lot into likepromoting local, promoting top
sellers, uh, staff favorites,things like that, and things you
(34:59):
can do on the shelf like, justbecause you don't have a great
marketing um, team, um or orsocial media or website, I think
you should get one of those andget that going if you have
access to it.
Um, but do a lot of thingsin-store with proper signage as
well.
Tina Smith (35:13):
As long as you have the traffic, I think for sure
yeah.
Micah Corrigan (35:16):
And then one of the things we also include is we
use Save Naturally, so that'sgoing to have the little sticker
.
You put it on the shelf andthen that purchase is subsidized
directly from the productmanufacturer, from the brand
itself, and then that retailergets reimbursed automatically
every two weeks.
So that's been working reallywell for us.
It's a very safe.
Great Naturally runs on it aswell.
(35:38):
So Great Naturally knows thatwe can subsidize that product
directly on the shelf every dayfor that campaign and we know
that that retailer is going toget reimbursed instead of all
the other ways that our industryis currently doing right now
with paper coupons.
But that's a great way that wepartner.
And then also we rely heavily onthe infra flyers.
(36:01):
So that's what we do.
We add on top of that we addthe rewards program and then
we'll do in-store maybe seasonalthings, like other special
things where it's definitelylike a map violation.
So we don't do that online, Uh,but that's more of an in-store
specific promotion like a, youknow, like a BOGO or you know
(36:22):
like a, really, you know.
You know, buy one, get one 50%off.
We don't do that online justbecause that's going to violate,
you know, our partner brands,maps, but you know there's,
there's tons of those types ofthings that we do.
And then with um, you knowshelf talkers, and then with
signage, yeah, it's a, yeah,it's really important.
Amanda Ballard (36:41):
So, micah, I'd love to just elaborate that on
that a little bit further,because it sounds like your,
your store.
Obviously you have have yourunique boutique, therapeutic
kind of mantra that you live by.
I think there are other storesthat probably are very similar
to you and that they're likewe're super consult.
We have a very consultativeapproach.
(37:01):
We carry these high end linesthat maybe they don't offer
these great discounts.
So like, why should we discount?
So how can you?
Is there a fine line betweenhaving these more premium brands
and discounting?
Does it cheapen the brand ordoes it just make the customer
(37:24):
happy?
Micah Corrigan (37:26):
Again it goes back to the erosion of trust.
I don't want to oversell aprice or product for a customer.
I just don't want to do that.
I think that Otis is on thebrand too, from the last podcast
.
Just make sure you're sellingproducts that don't make you
look bad.
Just make sure that you're notselling brands that are doing
(37:51):
50% off, 60% off, mat violationsbehind your back.
Dtc Don't allow that.
And then, having accepted that,then you know work with your
brands, with you know like thepremium brands, when you're.
I guess what your point is islike with the margins, right,
just make sure that that marginis healthy enough for you to
(38:13):
afford high quality service andhigh quality staff that can help
your customers.
That's the main thing.
It's very difficult to havehigh quality service and staff
and sell everything at a verycheap mass market product and a
mass market margin.
That doesn't really work.
So I think, finding thosepremium quality products that
(38:34):
you can make a healthy margin atthe map every single day, and
then quality products that youcan make a healthy margin at the
map every single day, and thenfrom there you can negotiate
promotions.
I would look at it that way andwe ended the last podcast with,
like, there's four like gamesthat we have in this industry.
Right, there's the EDLP game,which and I think this is kind
(38:54):
of how Chase is also looking atthe different tiers right, you
have the EDLP game, you have theline drive game, you have the
volume game and then you havethe random discount games or the
seasonal, and those are myleast favorite.
I was talking with a brand aboutthat and I was like when is
your Ashwagandha going to be onsale next?
And they had no idea.
They said maybe Q4, could be Q3.
(39:14):
We're not sure yet.
And so as a retailer, I'mtrying to allocate my funds for
the entire year.
I'm trying to figure that out.
I have a budget.
I don't know when I'm going tobuy it next.
So those types of brands whereI can't figure out my margins,
it's always like a guess.
We really steer away from thosebrands.
(39:35):
And then the EDLP is the goldengoose.
Many brands, they can't affordto do an EDLP 50 margin.
Maybe they do 45, maybe 40,maybe 35.
There's different types, maybe30.
There's different types oftiers like that.
And then there's two other onesthe volume and then the line
drive.
I personally Everyone does linedrives drives.
(39:57):
People are very used to linedrives.
I personally don't like linedrives that much for me, just
because when I sell a productlike, the whole point is to grow
a brand.
Right, we want to grow a brand,we want to gain that trust, we
want to, like, buy new customers, like tina said, and then I
sell out and then I don't knowhow to order again.
Now I have to reorder and it's20% margin.
(40:17):
What do I do?
So I prefer volume, becausevolume, I can go to bed at night
knowing that the next day I canalways order at that discount.
I just have to do a little bitof volume and then from there
you have to figure out is thevolume gross?
Is it 72?
Is it 144?
Is it 60, 36?
Is it 2000 units?
(40:38):
Is it a pallet?
What is that?
That's going to be anegotiation that the retailer
has to do again with the brand.
But reorders are dependent onitem movement when the brand
sets it up as a volume.
If the brand sets up theirentire promotion as a line drive
, then reorders are dependent ona random gregorian calendar
(41:00):
month, which is typically expowest.
You have expo east, which is nolonger expo east, you know what
I mean, and then you have, youknow, the two other shows, um,
three other shows likethroughout the year, and then a
lot of people are kind ofleapfrogging to that next
promotion.
Um, so just make sure likethat's just a lot of different
types of promotions that you canwork directly with the brand.
(41:20):
But the whole point is to makesure, like Chase was saying,
make sure that there's at leasta healthy margin on an EDLP or
not EDLP volume, just everydayway that you can buy that
product.
Make sure that that's a healthymargin and then from there do
those like discounts that likeChase was talking about.
You know, buy one, get one.
You know, map off and that willhelp grow the brand and brands
(41:45):
really want to partner withstores that follow through with
that.
And then you sell it out andthen you can buy it again.
You don't have to wait tillExpo West to buy it again, you
can buy it again tomorrow.
That's what brands really wantand I think that's kind of the
(42:05):
method that we as retailers needto follow as well.
Amanda Ballard (42:06):
So we're running close to the end of our time,
but I wanted to make sure Iasked this question.
So a lot of retailers are kindof married to their pricing and
their promotional calendars,structures, all of that.
One of the objections that wehear is you know, maybe we could
switch to map on some brands,but like our customers have
(42:29):
always been used to this, likethis is how we've always done
our discounts.
You know, an everyday low pricesounds great, but they, you
know they're used to seeing oursignage look a certain way or
our discounts look a certain way.
How would you encourageretailers to take ownership of
those changes, given that theyshould be a positive for their
(42:49):
customers?
How do they communicate that inan effective way?
Micah Corrigan (42:54):
Well, first I want to say, like the feet, like
timmy and timmy is a fictionalcharacter, right that has a
smartphone and that will slowlystart showing his or her parents
.
You know timmy, his parents,right, like that.
You know the.
You know they can buy thesesupplements cheaper somewhere
else.
So I think it's like a band-aid.
(43:17):
I mean it's like it's it's atough, you know, bandaid to like
rip off right away, but I think, over time it's like an
investment.
It's taking, you know, twosteps backward to take three
steps forward.
I think if you want to remainrelevant and if you want to, you
know, stand top of mind.
I think it's like a transitionthat you slowly have to move
forward with and customers, overtime, will get used to it.
(43:44):
We used to organize our storeby a brand and because for us it
was better, because for us itwas like easier to order that
way, but it was terrible for thecustomer.
You know vitamin D was in, youknow.
You know seven different aisles, so so it's, it's so it's
what's better for the customerat the end of the day.
That's how I would look at it.
Chase Ballard (44:02):
I was sidetracked there but I was looking up the
exact verbiage on a quote.
There's a number of quotes outthere, but I'm just blunt with
other retailers and they maylike it or not, but honestly,
one of the quotes that I like isBenjamin Franklin.
It says when you're finishedchanging, you're finished.
So if you're married to yourprograms, like my BOGO free
program that I have right now, Ihope I'm not running that in
(44:25):
six years.
That's not good on me.
Like I need to be changingstuff.
Like if you're stopped changingthen you're dead.
So yeah, and on that note.
Tina Smith (44:48):
That's pretty much die, yeah, uh, I think I mean
there's a lot of truth in thatwe're messing around, but
there's a lot of truth in thatbecause change is inevitable.
So you're in.
One of the things that I talkabout is that law of entropy,
like if you stand still, you'reactually going backwards,
because there's constantexpansion and change.
Chase Ballard (45:04):
Well, I think that, right there, what you just
said is our entire industry.
Half of our stores are stuck in2008.
Half of our I'm not evenkidding by half, it probably may
be more Half are stuck in 2008.
Half of ours I'm not evenkidding by half, it probably may
be more.
Half are stuck in 2008.
They're still doing superTuesday.
Sorry, if that offended half ofyou, you should be very
(45:26):
offended.
Um change get better pricing.
Tina Smith (45:31):
Well, I mean, that's really part of our mission here
, though, is to help people.
It is part of it is they.
They're not out and about andin touch with, maybe, whatever
else is happening in the retailworld, number one and number two
in this industry.
So part of the reason that, um,we're bringing you guys to the
table again and again is becausemaybe this might be the last
(45:54):
time now.
Amanda Ballard (45:56):
When the complete flight is funneling in.
Chase Ballard (45:59):
I think people need to wake up and like I'll
help any retailer, I'll give myphone out to any retailer.
But like we've got to change,you've got to grow with the
times and you know it's we'vehad.
We've had 16 years now, or whenthe smart I mean what social
media came out 2000,.
I don't know it's.
We've had a lot of time.
I love this industry more thananything.
(46:21):
I want to keep it healthy andsurviving and there's a lot of
stores struggling and dying whenthis is the time when natural
product health is the highestit's ever been and it's only
growing and getting higher.
But people are turning toTikTok and Amazon and not the
neighborhood health food storethat's been there for 30 years
and that's a problem.
Amanda Ballard (46:40):
Yeah, so let's fix it and change together.
So awesome.
Well, thank you guys so muchfor your time Always a pleasure
and we'll see you guys next time.
Thanks so much for listening tothe Natural Products Marketer
podcast.
We hope you found this episodeto be super helpful.
Make sure you check out theshow notes for any of those
valuable resources that wementioned on today's episode.
Tina Smith (47:02):
And, before you go, we would love for you to give us
a review.
Follow, like and subscribe onApple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube
or wherever you're listeningtoday, and make sure you join us
for our next episode, where wegive you more marketing tips so
that you can reach more peopleand change more lives.
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