February 5, 2025 • 43 mins
Discover how to transform your workplace into a sanctuary of safety, engagement, and productivity with insights from our special guest, renowned business writer and speaker Mike Michalowicz. Mike, known for his groundbreaking books like "Profit First" and "All In," shares his expertise on compassionate leadership and the art of building unstoppable teams. With a blend of humor and practical advice, Mike introduces a refreshing perspective on proactive management that can enhance peace of mind and boost productivity.
We then shift gears to examine the dynamics between corporate America and small businesses, exploring how intimate settings can foster genuine connections and support among team members. Through personal anecdotes and the symbolic presence of a cherished office tree, we discuss how aligning employees with their strengths can transform their experience from mere job satisfaction to a fulfilling pursuit. The F-A-S-O framework comes into play here, highlighting how fit and passion can revolutionize the way we perceive work.
As we challenge the conventional notions of human potential, this episode uncovers innovative strategies for leaders to unlock hidden abilities within their teams. From workshops that stimulate curiosity and desire to the importance of creating a comprehensive safe environment—physically, emotionally, and financially—we leave no stone unturned. We delve into the intricacies of profit-sharing and motivational dynamics, all while maintaining a light-hearted approach with Mike's entertaining stories, including his unexpected success in matchmaking. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for leaders eager to optimize business performance and workforce management.
Connect with us:
Email: info@naturalproductsmarketer.com
About Amanda Ballard
Amanda has worked in natural products marketing in the retail setting since 2016 and has a great understanding of the unique challenges and opportunities that retailers in this industry face. More than anything, she wants this industry to continue to boom and believes much of that success hinges on the ability of retailers to do well in their businesses and market their products effectively.
About Tina Smith
Since 2014, Tina has worked with multiple natural products businesses, discovering how to market their CBD products online, without having their payment processor shut them down, to letting customers talk about their health issues those products have helped them solve. She knows first hand how experts like you offer the best products and a superior customer experience, that is why she is committed to helping you find an easy way to grow your natural product business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike Michalowicz (00:00):
I thought physical safety was something we
had to worry about in the 1800s.
This is how ignorant I am.
I asked my office here.
I said is there any safetyconcerns?
It was an anonymous survey.
And they came back and said,yeah, the alleyway on the side
of our office there's analleyway that goes to the
parking lot.
They said it's pitch black andwhen the sun starts setting you
know this time of year by fiveo'clock, four o'clock, it's
getting dark.
We're leaving, I, we're leaving.
(00:21):
I'm afraid about leaving theoffice and going down this dark
alleyway and I start thinkingabout it around noon.
So half the day is wasted inworry.
I'm like, oh my God.
So we put string lights up andit's super bright and you can
see exactly what's going onbecause you all the way to your
car and it's brought around thislevel of safety.
So we have to evaluate thesethings.
Tina Smith (00:42):
Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer
Podcast.
Amanda Ballard (00:45):
I'm Tina and I'm Amanda, and we're here to make
marketing easier for naturalproducts businesses, so you can
reach more people and changemore lives.
Tina Smith (00:57):
Welcome to another episode of Natural Products
Marketer Podcast, and today weare joined by one of my favorite
people, mike Michalowicz.
He is a business writer, author, speaker, and he owns I don't
know 15 different businesses.
I'm very excited to have himtoday because he I love what
(01:21):
Mike has to share, because healways talks about things that
he has stumbled through and sortof figured out.
And what he does is he has anamazing network of connections
that he goes to when he's havinga problem and he's like how do
I solve this?
And then he's a researcher toothat looks to find all the ways
that you can fix the problemthat he's having.
(01:43):
So I I'm just so excited tohave him on the podcast.
He's a great business resourceand a personal friend.
Amanda Ballard (01:52):
Yeah, and I will say I remember Tina introduced
me to Mike's work years ago andI had never heard of him before
and immediately I became afangirl and read about every
single book that he's everwritten in a very short amount
of time.
And immediately I became afangirl and read about every
single book that he's everwritten in a very short amount
of time and I was like I see whyyou like this guy so much,
because he is definitely awealth of knowledge, a super
(02:15):
easy read, super fun andpractical.
I personally love listening tohis books on Audible because
he's so animated and it's justso much fun.
So I hope you enjoy thisinterview with Mike Michalowicz.
Tina Smith (02:27):
We are excited to have you here.
Mike Michalowicz (02:30):
I can feel it.
I can feel the energy.
Tina Smith (02:35):
I feel like you're being sarcastic, but we're
excited.
Mike Michalowicz (02:38):
There's a little bit of sarcasm in there.
Good Well, I'm excited to bewith you.
Let's have some fun and be ofservice.
Tina Smith (02:44):
Yes, let's do have some fun.
We want to first talk to youabout your book.
All In, this is MikeMichalowicz, and he's my friend
and an author.
And Mike, we've known eachother for how many years now
Five, six years.
Mike Michalowicz (03:05):
Um, yeah, something like that it's been.
Yeah, I would say over fiveunder seven.
So there you go.
Tina Smith (03:11):
Right, yeah, and I first came to know who you were
through profit first.
You did a podcast on DonaldMiller's podcast for story brand
and that's how I got to knowwho you were and I connected
with one of your Profit Firstpeople and she then connected us
because she was doing great andit's Dr Sabrina Starling who is
(03:35):
wonderful.
She's an amazing business coachand she brought us together for
a business retreat.
That's where we first met, sothat was exciting.
But now you've written a newbook called All In, and it's
about getting your employees tobe all in on your business.
Mike Michalowicz (03:54):
It is.
It's also the smallest book.
I don't know if you can see it,but see, it's about that big.
So think about that.
Trying to read that.
The text is like and and thereason I did this, tina and
Amanda, I know cause you'reasking me why would the person
make a book that's the size of athimble?
And the reason is I asked DonMiller.
I said how do you get peoplemore engaged?
(04:15):
He's like make it so difficultthat they have to be fully
attentive.
And so I'm gonna make thesmallest book ever.
And sure enough, uh, no one'sread it.
Tina Smith (04:25):
And now it's blending into your background.
Mike Michalowicz (04:27):
You've got to choose that background color.
It's actually sitting on myshoulder there, yeah, so the
book's called All In thesubtitle is how Great Leaders
Build Unstoppable Teams, andwhat I did and, admittedly, what
I do with most actually all mybooks is there is something that
I'm not good at that I'mstruggling with that.
(04:50):
I want to learn how to getbetter at it, and I think I've
been a meh leader in manycapacities and I really want to
up-level my game, and I foundtechniques and strategies that
most people don't consider, andit doesn't matter if you're in
the marketing industry or ifyou're in bowling lanes or
bowling alleys, it doesn'tmatter.
(05:11):
Leadership needs to be present.
So I discovered these differenttechniques.
I've been trying them out and Iwould think I went from meh to
meh plus now to meh plus now,but I think there's ways to
elevate your game, to really bea leader that doesn't lead
through authority in thetraditional sense, leads through
(05:34):
compassion.
That actually is the ultimateexpression of authority.
Tina Smith (05:37):
Can you tell me what scale you're rating that on
from meh to?
Mike Michalowicz (05:42):
Yeah.
So you want to know the wholescale.
So the lowest is pfft, thehighest is like my god.
So somewhere between pfft andmy god is there's meh.
There's meh plus, there's likethat's pretty good.
There's like meh, I haven'tseen much better.
Then there's I've seen better,but not many.
And then there's me've seenbetter, but not many.
(06:05):
And then there's ah.
Tina Smith (06:06):
So hopefully that helped.
Meh plus, meh plus For context.
Mike Michalowicz (06:10):
Yeah, the book can get you to.
Oh my God, I really do feelthat way, but you got to execute
on it and it takes time.
Tina Smith (06:18):
Right, okay, so we are actually talking to
independent retailers.
This is what our podcast is allabout.
Natural products retailers.
This is what our podcast is allabout Natural products
retailers.
And then the independent guys,the mom and pops.
They probably have one location, sometimes they have two, maybe
a few more, but it'sconsolidated to a geographic
location and they are sometimescompeting with the publics down
(06:42):
the store that's got to buy one,get one with similar products.
So they're also competing fortalent and it's interesting,
especially right now, that'sharder than ever to get good
people in a retail setting whowant to come into a location and
be part of the community and dowhat you want to do.
(07:03):
So this could not be moretimely, I think.
Mike Michalowicz (07:07):
I agree.
I'll tell you what we've beentold to do is well for your
retail store selling thesenatural products.
What's the grand mission?
How are you serving thecommunity?
What's the goal?
That's the wrong move.
And yet we've all been toldthat, because that's going to
empower my team to rally aroundthis one point, there's partial
(07:28):
truths to it.
Here's the question I found is,as you consider people, what is
their individual visions forthemselves?
What do they want to do?
What's meaningful to them?
So the grand mistake thatleaders make, and I've made for
20 years, was saying here's thecorporate mission.
We're going to eradicateentrepreneurial poverty.
That's important to me or we'regoing to I used to be in
(07:50):
computer crime investigationwe're going to make sure that we
deliver the essence of thetruth, which is the data itself.
But when I spoke to mycolleagues, while that was great
and all one person their dreamwas to surf and navigate the
world by sailboat.
Her name is Carol.
She's like that's what I'm herefor.
(08:12):
This is great but I also want toachieve this and this is the
most important thing in my life.
Everyone has their vision andwhat a great leader will do is
understand the vision of everyindividual and that we do have
individual visions.
And then how do we lock arms?
How do we achieve this greatvision of bringing health to our
community and someone having atravel experience or whatever it
(08:36):
may be, and the other personachieving what they want?
Now, I'm not saying this isMake-A-Wish Foundation.
I'm not saying our companiesneed to satisfy these dreams,
but we need to see this iswhat's most relevant to our
colleagues and employees, justlike the corporate mission is
inevitably the most importantthing to the owner Eradicating
(08:56):
entrepreneurial poverty.
That's my mission.
That serves my ego.
I'm excited about that, mycolleagues get it and they want
to support that.
But they have other facets oftheir lives that's extremely
important to them.
They recognize what I want andtherefore they're on board.
I recognize what they want andtherefore I'm on board with them
, and it's simply just havingthe conversation about it.
(09:16):
Sometimes there's blocking andtackling.
Sometimes I can make anintroduction or vice versa and
help out, but when we show thatwe care for the mission of each
team member.
Each team member cares for themission of the corporation,
which is the mission of anotherteam member, which is the owner.
Tina Smith (09:35):
Yeah, let me give you a realistic example of how
this happens in the stores.
A lot of these people want tohelp people on their health and
wellness journey, and the ownermight be male and very excited
about sports nutrition, while wehear stories all the time like,
how do you get into thisindustry, how do you get into
(09:57):
this business?
And they hire someone who isjust trying to take care of a
major illness in their kid'slife, who is just trying to take
care of a major illness intheir kid's life and that can
open up huge doors for beingable to bring products that can
help other children or helpother moms support their kids on
while they're dealing withmajor illnesses and different
(10:19):
ways to affect that.
We've seen that happen againand again.
Mike Michalowicz (10:23):
Yeah, and the more we have the opportunity to
speak about our own individualstories and desires, the more
connection forms.
So I'll tell you a little thingwe do here at our office.
We have a daily huddle happenthis morning, 931.
That's our start time and thetraditional business huddle is
here's our mission for thecompany, here's our individual
(10:45):
tasks.
That is important.
We do need to be in alignment,we have to work in concert.
But the thing that we add is wetalk about how you're doing on
your own individual missions.
So I have it.
It's off camera, but let's seeif I can turn my camera this way
just so you can see it right.
There is a poster.
It says mike 2024.
Um, one of the missions wasintroduce introduce Tina to
(11:06):
someone for her.
To date that seemed to work outpretty well.
But on there I have differentindividual personal desires.
I have in all differentcategories.
Well, my colleagues, we allhave these and we refer to them
every meeting.
It's like, hey, do you checkanything off your list?
So we we have that personalconversation, but we're all
(11:28):
aware of what's going on.
There's something special whenthe owner of that retail store
and there's maybe two or threeother people working there,
whatever it may be, comes in themorning and says, doesn't say,
hey, let's have a great day,let's sell some vitamins.
Comes in and hey, how did lastnight go?
Did you have that conversationwith the mortgage broker?
Is the house getting a littlecloser?
(11:49):
Hey, how's your mom doing?
I know she's not doing well andthat she's such an important
facet of your life.
Those conversations buildconnection and that's what's
missing out.
So we have a deliberatepractice happens to be every
morning where thoseconversations come up.
We have a deliberate practice,happens to be every morning
where those conversations comeup no-transcript.
Amanda Ballard (12:13):
Yeah, I absolutely love that because
I've worked in corporate Americaand you know Fortune 500
companies.
Mike Michalowicz (12:19):
Sorry to hear that.
Amanda Ballard (12:21):
I know I hated it because that did not exist
and it was like you're just acog in a wheel and it was like
you know, maybe I would talk tomy manager once a week and it
was just like hey, Amanda,what's up Like that was, that
was the extent of our personalconnection.
And then when I started workingin small mom and pop businesses
(12:42):
, it was like, hey, how are yourkids?
You're heard of children, Letme, let me tell you all the
crazy stuff that's going on athome and, uh, I have four, by
the way, Um, uh.
So that was a huge, just shiftfor me personally, where I was
like this is what work can beand something that I feel like
(13:03):
the independent retailers thatwe work with need to lean into
even more is like this is astrength.
Maybe you can't pay thesalaries that this Fortune 500
company was paying me, but, mygosh, you connect with me on a
personal level and how importantthat is.
Like I would gladly work for acompany for less money if I felt
(13:26):
like I was valued.
Mike Michalowicz (13:28):
Yeah, corporate America seems to
dehumanize.
This is a generalization.
Not all corporations do this,but there's a tendency.
And what facilitates that is wehave terms like human resource.
A human resource, you're athing, not a human being.
They have to pay highersalaries because they dehumanize
(13:51):
us.
So the only way to attractsomeone is the currency tradeoff
.
Interestingly, you can't payenough to someone to feel human.
You have to be human, and so,as corporations stay a little
longer, we're going to goldenhandcuff you and, oh, your human
part.
You can have that when youleave the office.
So one advantage that smallbusiness has is we're so much
(14:15):
more intimately connected.
I think part of the reason isjust the nature of it is we have
so many job responsibilities.
There's such a strongerdependency.
So think I have a retail storewith four employees, including
myself.
If Mandy and Tina, you bothwork for me and man, if you say
I have to be with the herd ofkids today, that's 25% of the
(14:37):
work staff gone for the day.
Now, to give context, corporateAmerica with 100,000 employees.
If one person says I got to gotake care of the kids, whatever,
we have 100,000 employees, butif 25%, if 25,000 people said
can't show up today, that'd beall over the headlines of the
news 25,000 people don't showfor work.
But that's what's happening tosmall business.
(14:59):
It's just because we're playingsmall numbers, we don't think
the impact is a big deal, but itis a massive deal.
So there's a dependency and aneed for the owner to have these
employees available and to playall out.
And because we're small, wehave this intimacy.
So I really want to know aboutyou, because I really depend on
you and we're small, we havethis intimacy so.
So I really want to know aboutyou, because I really depend on
you and we're small enough andintimate enough.
(15:19):
I really want to get to knowyou.
I think we can level it up,though, and make it a deliberate
practice.
I think it comes out out ofjust natural conversations hey,
let's go have pizza together.
I think there can be somedeliberate activities.
I'll give you one example thatwe have here in our office.
I think, tina, you've been here, have you seen the tree?
(15:47):
Have you been here?
Have you seen the tree?
Okay, so we have a tree in ouroffice, on the wall outside of
my office, and it's just abarren piece of wallpaper shaped
like a tree, no leaves on oranything.
But every time you accomplish apersonal vision, you have for
yourself a dream or desire, youfill it out on this leaf and you
start putting on the tree.
So the tree blooms.
(16:07):
What we've been doing this fornow about four or three or four
years and there's hundreds ofleaves up there, some things as
innocuous as I cleaned out myattic but that was a dream.
Someone had, like it's beenfrustrating.
That person was Corday, beenfrustrating her for years and
she put on her list and we saidhow's that attic going?
(16:27):
And she actually took a halfday one day and just got done.
She's like thanks forsupporting me in this.
I would never got doneotherwise.
Right next to it is one thatsays five years cancer-free.
That was Amy who said my dreamis never to have this horrible
disease to come back.
All the dreams are important.
We shouldn't rate thesignificance to what it means to
(16:48):
our colleagues, but we alsoneed to celebrate it, so that's
part of our practice.
It was about a year or sixmonths ago.
I said gosh, there's so manyleaves up here.
I think we should pull all theleaves down and restart.
And my colleagues eight of ushere at the office said no
stinking way, those leaves stayup forever because that's
meaningful accomplishments andit's not recognized in other
parts of my life.
(17:09):
Not their words, but definitelythe intuition that came, the
intonation that came out of whatthey were saying.
So I said, well, how do wecelebrate all of the new visions
that are being accomplished?
And I think it was Andrea whosaid, well, why don't we get
flowers and start putting themon the ground and why don't we
put clouds and birds up?
And everyone will be arecognition of something we
accomplished.
(17:29):
And, by the way, you write downexactly what you did on it, you
sign it, you put the date andyou put it up there.
It's a good way to pay homageto your colleagues' dreams and
visions and, selfishly,reciprocity.
When we care for each other,each other cares for the whole
group and the business getselevated.
Tina Smith (17:48):
Yeah, so can you give us some idea of the overall
framework from gettingemployees to be all in?
Mike Michalowicz (17:56):
Yeah, sure, sure, sure.
So it's an acronym F-A-S-O.
Faso kind of rhymes with lasso,and there's four elements I
dove into.
First is a fit.
When we do what we like to do,it's no longer a job, and I know
we've heard this and you'veexperienced it.
There is another great book outthere.
(18:18):
It's called Working Genius byPat Lencioni, and he talks about
identifying where your fieldsof passion he calls it genius
are and how excellent we can bewhen we do what we're great at.
So the first job of a leader isto realize that every human
being is actually an A player.
(18:39):
There's this fallacy out therethat 10% of the population is A
players.
But when I survey audiencesI'll say, hey, just in this room
, who here is an A player?
And I'm like don't be bashfulhere, I want to know the God's
truth.
Every hand goes up in everyroom I'm in and I'm like this is
the truth.
Everyone's an A player.
If we are doing the right thing, that compels us, that gives us
(19:00):
energy and drive.
It's the thing we want to do,we feel called to do, and some
of us need guidance to find that.
But we definitely know whenwe're not doing it.
So the first job of theentrepreneur, the leader, is to
identify where can people excel?
Do you have a person in yourstore who's the great
communicator and just really isgreat at socializing?
How do you have them engage thecommunity more?
Do someone who's great atvetting out products,
(19:21):
negotiating the purchasing orsomething move people toward
that?
And the ironic thing about whenyou find and develop people's
desires, they don't need to comewith experience.
I think there's a thought likeoh, you know, someone's got five
or six years experience doingthis.
They have to know what they'redoing.
No, no, no.
Someone who's thirsty willlearn really fast and will learn
(19:43):
your way.
So don't necessarily needexperience, but you do need the
next thing.
So A stands for ability.
You do need that hiddenpotential ability.
Most organizations considerexperiential talent.
They say, well, what's yourpast?
Because that indicates yourfuture.
As we know, that doesn'tnecessarily mean anything.
Someone could say they can saywhatever they want on resumes,
(20:05):
particularly chat GPT.
Now you say whatever you wantand chat GPT will make you look
amazing.
But we want to look forpotential.
So the question is how do youfind potential?
So here's a super cool tip Runworkshops.
So the question is how do youfind potential?
So here's a super cool tip Runworkshops.
So what you can do.
Instead of saying we're lookingto hire someone, you can say hey
, everything about working inthe natural food space or
(20:30):
natural vitamins and so forth,everything about working in the
retail space.
We have a workshop where youcan come in and experience this
for a couple of days, see whatit's like.
The interesting thing aboutworkshops is you can even charge
people for this thing, and it'seven better you do this.
Charge them 50 bucks because itvets out their interest and say
show up, try this out and wewill show you what it's like.
(20:50):
Maybe you even want to run yourown store one day.
Now, the interesting thing ispeople that show up are truly
curious.
That's the first definition ofpotential.
As we teach, we also observe,and the people who are curious
they ask questions, show desire,are people that probably would
be good employees, and there arecertain people that hit the
level I call thirst, where theycan't quit.
(21:11):
It's like this is who I am.
So run a workshop to vet outpeople who want to learn,
because learners are the Aplayers.
Right, we want to learn and getbetter at something that we've
interest in, and the people whoshow thirst may be your
employees.
This isn't just theory.
Home Depot next time you see abuild a birdhouse workshop and
you go down there to build abirdhouse, that is a recruiting
(21:33):
platform.
People are like no, no, no,they're trying to sell products
Ultimately.
They want me to be happy withthe store.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'ssecondary.
They're recruiting.
They want to see the people whoshow up curious.
They want to see the peoplethat ask the most questions,
help other folks that are there,desire and the weirdo that
comes like two or three times ina row every workshop, every
weekend I'm building a birdhouse.
(21:53):
They'll approach you and sayhave you ever considered working
at Home Depot?
You're the exact type ofcandidate we're looking for.
You vet people without tellingthem.
You're vetting them.
You do it through education.
Two more things, real quick.
The S in this model stands forsafety.
You need to set an environment,of course, that we feel safe.
Physical safety, relationalsafety, emotional safety.
(22:15):
Those are all components andthe leader has influence over it
.
I thought physical safety wassomething we had to worry about
in the 1800s.
This is how ignorant I am.
I asked my office here.
I said is there any safetyconcerns?
It was an anonymous survey andthey came back and said, yeah,
the alleyway, on the side of ouroffice there's an alleyway that
goes to the parking lot.
They said it's pitch black andwhen the sun starts setting you
know, this time of year by fiveo'clock, four o'clock, it's
(22:37):
getting dark.
We're leaving.
I'm afraid about of leaving theoffice and going down this dark
alleyway.
And, uh, I started thinkingabout around noon.
So half the day is wasted andworry.
I'm like, oh my God.
So we put string lights up andit's super bright and you can
see exactly what's going on.
You can see all the way to yourcar and it's brought around
this level of safety.
So we have to evaluate thesethings.
(22:58):
I'll tell you that that's maybeobvious.
If, once you ask, I'll tell yousomething.
That's not obvious is financialsafety.
I think what many leaders,small business owners think is I
need to pay my people more.
That gives them safety and itdoes not.
Financial safety comes out fromfinancial understanding, and one
way that employers can helpwith this is by having open
(23:19):
books.
We've had open books now for 10years.
We don't share salaries.
That's all blended in expensesbecause we want to protect
people's privacy.
But they know the healthyorganization and what's so
interesting about this is whenyou know the healthy
organization, you have asecurity that your future is
secured or not.
If the organization isstruggling, you know that maybe
(23:41):
it's time to take action, butyou see what's going on, as
opposed to this opaque reality,master mystery, where you don't
know what's going on.
So we have open books and whatI found is that people feel
comfort in knowing the health ofthe organization and feel much
more secure in their positions.
Yes, you have to pay people acompetitive salary, but not
(24:01):
everyone's driven by a salary.
Actually, many people aredriven by lifestyle and salary
is secondary to them.
They have secured themselvesfinancially to the degree they
want to.
They want a comfortablelifestyle, and so they want to.
They want a comfortablelifestyle, and so they want to
make sure their position isgoing to be there.
So open books doesn't justeducate your employees.
It gives them a sense ofsecurity.
The last thing is ownership.
Ownership is where someonefeels and acts like an owner of
(24:23):
the business.
It's actually the number onething I hear from people is I
wish my employees would act likeowners.
So how do you get someone tofeel like owners?
You don't give them equity.
Equity, in fact, can result inentitlement.
There's these ESOP programs andstuff, where you own a small
part of the business.
What seems to happendisproportionately is employees
say I own some.
(24:44):
Now Where's my money?
You owe me.
That's entitlement.
Instead, you can use what'scalled psychological ownership.
That's entitlement.
Instead, you can use what'scalled psychological ownership.
Psychological ownership are thepsychological triggers that
cause someone to feel that whatthe business is is actually part
of them.
There's an association of theiridentity to the business.
The business is me and I am thebusiness.
(25:04):
And you'll hear that inemployees when someone says you
know, I don't know if, if thestore or your store is selling
as effectively as it could, asopposed to I don't know if our
store is selling as effectivelyas it could.
When you hear our or this is myjob.
That's a definition ofpossession, meaning that I
associate myself with theorganization.
(25:24):
So how do you invoke it?
Give people intimate knowledge,ability to learn skills.
You do it through control,meaning that they have authority
over something.
Many business owners becomemicromanagers, actually
stripping away control.
So people don't feel that theyhave ownership.
And the last thing is you givethem the ability to personalize.
How do I make it more of my own?
I'll give you one quick example.
(25:47):
I know I'm doing a big diatribehere, but I wanted to give the
full context.
If you rent a car, you clearlydon't feel ownership.
You leave that Hertz orwhatever and you do donuts in
the parking lot.
We definitely abuse the car andwe surely don't wash it before
we return it.
But when you own a car youmight get it washed occasionally
.
You're probably not abusing thecar and doing donuts.
(26:07):
You're not skidding into everysingle light or peeling out when
it turns green.
Why is that?
Because you may not even ownyour car.
Maybe the bank who legally ownsit.
But we feel like we own it.
We even say we own it.
Why?
Because you personalize it,program all the radio stations.
You probably don't program theradio stations in your rental
car.
You put a bumper sticker onyour car or window sticker.
(26:27):
You probably don't do that witha rental car.
You determine when you want todrive it.
This is a control when you wantto drive it, where you want to
take it.
The rental car probablyactually gives you rules Can't
take it out of the country,can't do a certain amount of
miles.
You can do what you want withyour car control and you have
intimate knowledge.
When you bought your car youmay have gone through that
entire manual.
You know, in the middle ofJanuary, shivering to death
(26:48):
outside like, what does thisbutton do?
Do you even read the manual inthe rental car?
You just want to know where theturn signal is.
Those three elements aresignificant in giving someone a
sense of ownership, even thoughthey don't, in this case, the
bank, owns it.
You know, legally own something, so you can do that in your
business.
Tina Smith (27:05):
They still have printed like car manuals.
Printed like car manuals.
Yeah, have you bought a carrecently?
Mike Michalowicz (27:17):
Oh, they do, it's always in the glove
compartment, I'm just teasingyou.
Amanda Ballard (27:19):
I'm teasing you, I know.
So, Mike, I do have a questionabout this whole open books and
ownership and where that maybeoverlaps a little bit.
So I know you said you knowmaybe not necessarily give them
equity stake in the company, butsomething like doing a
commission or some sort ofprofit share type situation in
(27:40):
an area where they feel likethey have ownership.
Is that something that youfound works well?
Mike Michalowicz (27:46):
Yeah.
So we've tested that and it canbe a motivational factor.
I am consistently surprised howfew people are motivated by
money and what I found in my ownorganization.
So this is an antidote, morethan data.
We have eight of us here.
We do a profit share and we doit every quarter.
(28:07):
20% of the profits that come outof the company get evenly
distributed, regardless of yoursalaries.
So everyone gets the same sliceand no one really says anything
.
It's like and I'm not, I'm not.
It's not ingratitude, they'renot ingrates, it's just.
This is normal.
And I said well, why are wedoing this If no one's like
thanks, mike, and let's, let'spush forward next quarter.
And I'm like oh, for me as theleader, it makes me feel good, I
(28:31):
feel that I'm doing somethingto honor my colleagues who are
putting an effort in here.
So profit distribution, Irealize at least in my case, but
in other people's cases tooit's really a reward for the
giver, not the receiver.
So observe and play those tools.
The interesting thing is peoplewill say, oh, money's a
motivator.
(28:52):
Absolutely, I'll work harderfor a commission.
The reality is, when people arefully embraced and encouraged
to be their full selves, they goall out.
I suspect both of you play allout in your businesses on your
podcast, not because of thecompensation you're receiving,
just because that's the natureof who you are and that's what I
believe most people are is whenwe're in the right environment,
able to express ourselves theway we want to express ourselves
(29:14):
, we will play all out.
I'm not saying everyone willplay all out for any company
because it may not be a fit.
In fact, small businesses wherewe have four or five employees,
most people that you considerwon't be a fit.
That's why we got to do theseworkshops and test people out.
Those are A players.
It's not A players for you.
They need to find positionselsewhere.
Tina Smith (29:36):
Yeah, I want to talk before you leave about this
return on payroll concept thatyou talked about.
Mike Michalowicz (29:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Tina Smith (29:46):
So tell us about you were talking about three times
the salary should be where therevenue is when you hire an
employee.
Tell me more about that andwhere you've seen it work or
what tweaks you make when it'snot working.
Mike Michalowicz (30:03):
Yeah, it's a rule of thumb.
Most small businesses becomeoverstaffed and they are so
burdened by payroll it's a slowdeath of the business they can't
sustain.
So what we do is we use as arule of thumb so if a business
is doing, let's say, $300,000 ayear and overall payroll and
this includes the owners is200,000.
(30:23):
We know that business shouldreally be doing about 600,000,
three times payroll to be in ahealthy position.
We know immediately there's redflags and we have to go into a
deep evaluation.
So that's what it's used asit's just a rule of thumb
analysis on the fiscal state ofa business.
For most retail businesses, thenumber one expense is payroll
(30:46):
and number two is rent orownership of the building.
Sometimes the building comesfirst and then the employees
come next and then inventory.
Those are the big three.
What's interesting is when itcomes to cutting costs on
inventory, it's a thing we'relike, yeah, yeah, when it comes
to cutting or controlling costswith employees, that becomes a
very emotional decision.
(31:06):
I've had this person for twoyears.
I can't let them go.
So it's the thing that we becomeleast critical of or we become
most avoidant of, and that's whythat number is so important to
understand so you can make anappropriate decision.
I will share this If you areoverstaffed and your business is
dying.
This belief that I try to saveeveryone while my business
(31:27):
collapses is like saying theTitanic's going to float again.
No, we got to get people offthe ship, and sometimes you have
to save the ship by letting afew people move on to other
opportunities so you can get thebusiness to be fiscally healthy
again.
And that's a very hard decision.
So we have to look at thenumbers first.
Amanda Ballard (31:44):
Do you do that over a period of time?
You know initially when I makethat hire.
If I'm hiring someone for, youknow, $60,000 a year, I expect
to see that three X return.
Mike Michalowicz (31:56):
Yeah, I expect to see 180.
Yeah, it may not be overnight,but that's gotta be my plan.
And so if I hire someone todaythat's making 60, I got to say
this business has to be bringingan additional 180 by such and
such period.
Tina Smith (32:16):
And I commit not to making more hires or any more
decisions in the meantime untilthis person is doing that.
Yeah, and I would justencourage anyone that if you
find that you're oversteppedlike you're talking about like
the burden financial burden isheavy on the employee side of
things and this math isn'tworking for you.
Look at profit first, becausethere are a number of things
that you can do, which willinclude evaluating and like
moving people out if necessary,but there are also other things
(32:37):
where expenses are too much andways to create more revenue that
you're probably just notthinking about right now, and
revenue will solve a lot ofproblems for businesses, like
sales growth if done well withthe same amount of staff, will
solve a lot of problems.
Mike Michalowicz (32:55):
That's exactly true.
Tina Smith (32:56):
Anything else that you just want to close out with?
Mike Michalowicz (33:00):
Well, if I can share the resource, mike
Motorbike nickname from gradeschool, the only PG one I had,
as in the motorcyclemikemotorbikecom.
All my resources are up therepre-booked chapters and so forth
.
Tina Smith (33:12):
Well, thanks for joining us for that episode with
Mike Michalowicz.
That was super fun and I alwaysenjoy chatting with him as we
were going through the all in abook that he's written.
I was just thinking about Iwonder if this is what he did to
help me find my fiance.
Did he create a workshopsituation?
(33:35):
And I'm sorry he's not on hereto enjoy this right now, cause
he is so proud that heintroduced me to the man I'm now
marrying.
Well done, mike.
He thinks that he should start.
We've talked about like he has15 businesses, but he thinks he
should start a matchmakingbusiness because it worked once.
Amanda Ballard (33:54):
I mean, you got to start somewhere, right.
Tina Smith (33:57):
He has 100% record that it works and I'm only
sharing this because we actuallygot engaged at the Senpa show
in September, so it's somethingI mean.
I just feel like this communityis part of my whole story now,
both my business, mike McAllen'scommunity and now the natural
(34:19):
products community.
So it's been the whole wayalong our journey.
So Mike introduced me.
You guys are where we you guysare where we.
Amanda Ballard (34:38):
I said, yes, all the things.
Tina Smith (34:39):
So the stars aligned and everything is great.
So thank you, mike Michalowicz.
Yeah, anything um Amanda thatkind of stuck out for you as he
was talking through the processof All In.
Amanda Ballard (34:48):
You know, one of my favorite things that he said
and as I've been reading thebook is that every person is an
A player, and I feel like, inworking in retail for as long as
I have, it's easy to feel likethere's B and C players on your
(35:08):
team and get frustrated, and Ithink that there's something to
be said about.
Everyone is an A player.
They just might not be an Aplayer in your business, and so
if you can find a place for themin your business where they can
shine as an A player, do thatif you want to keep them around,
(35:29):
if there is an opportunity forthem to shine in that area, but
if not, there's an opportunityelsewhere, because everyone has
their own unique ability.
So I thought that was a reallyimportant reminder, just because
it is so easy to get frustratedwith underperformers, but
knowing just how valuable peopleare as individuals and I love
(35:52):
that he was talking about his,you know this community that
he's building within his ownteams, and I see that in the
stores that I've worked in andvisited, they really are almost
like family, and so I do thinkthat that is something that
again sets these independentbusinesses apart, and as long as
(36:14):
we just are always thinkingabout how valuable people are as
individuals.
Whether or not there's aperfect fit for them in our
company is one thing, but just areminder of how important it is
to treat people with respectand remember how valuable they
are.
Tina Smith (36:31):
Yeah, and you know another thing that stood out to
me because I've seen it happen.
So as he was talking about it,I was like, oh my gosh, this
reminds me of that scenario thathappened with this retailer.
But he's talking about theseworkshops and using them as well
.
You're educating, which is hugein this industry.
You're educating the public,but the people who come and
(36:54):
attend over and over again,they're the people who are most
interested in the type ofeducation that you want to
provide to everyone anyway.
And then, second, they areprobably people that are
referring they're probably superreferrers to educational events
or whatever they've learned.
If you watch the people who havelearned things in your
(37:16):
workshops, the next time they'rein the store, if they're
sharing that with anothercustomer without being prompted,
that's a perfect opportunity.
And it just reminds me of whensomeone has a health issue and
they're willing to help someoneelse and we've seen that happen
(37:37):
and then they end up being areally great employee and
talking through that ownershippiece of it.
Then they start to own aparticular section and they
attract more people like them.
So, whether it's hey, I'm a mom, I deal with this chronic issue
for my kid or pets We'vetotally seen this happen in a
(37:57):
pet department.
Amanda Ballard (37:59):
Yeah, absolutely , and I think you know customers
really can make the bestemployees as long as they're
given opportunity, anopportunity and I know that
there was something that wewanted to talk about and we
didn't have the time to butbuilding a bench for when you
have a need almost like making alist ahead of time of these are
(38:23):
whether it's a potential,whether it's a customer or
someone you've interviewed inthe past, or a previous employee
that's maybe moved on eventhough you absolutely loved
working with them, whoever theyare.
Have a list of potential benchpeople that you could pull in
whenever you have a need thatneeds to be filled.
I thought that was a reallygood insight from the book.
Tina Smith (38:43):
Yeah, you know.
What else, though, about thatvery topic, I was thinking about
having the bench available.
Like, you start having theseconversations and you realize
that someone could be a reallygood fit for working with you,
but you don't have a positionyet.
I think the stores haveopportunities because they do
(39:05):
these events, whether it's ahealth fair or something's
happening on a weekend, and theyneed extra people to hand out
samples or something like that.
It's the perfect time to offersome compensation for a short
period of time, like, hey, wouldyou be willing to come and give
us a hand at this event?
All we need you to do is passout samples for this thing that
(39:26):
you already love and talk topeople about it, and we can pay
you.
And that way, you're notoverstaffing up and they're
getting to know you.
You're getting to know themwhere you're kind of having this
trial period of dating, andthen, when a position's
available and they're stillinterested, hopefully then you
(39:48):
have someone who's ready to fillthat role.
Amanda Ballard (39:52):
Yeah, absolutely .
I think that's wise and I'veseen it play out so I know it
can be done.
So it's definitely it requiresnurturing those relationships
and just staying in touch.
But I think it's well worth it,because you never know when
staff can change and to be ableto pull people in, at least
(40:18):
having that relationshipavailable to you.
They might say no, they mightnot be interested at the time,
but you at least have a place tostart, as opposed to just
posting a job listing on a jobboard somewhere.
Tina Smith (40:31):
And it's probably your customer, yeah, like,
because those are people who aremost interested in what you're
doing.
So I mean, just think about thenumber of customers that are
coming through these stores.
There's a whole job poolsitting right there because
they're already interested inthat kind of work you're doing
and they could be great so youget to have that customer
(40:54):
interaction with them every day.
So I would be on the lookout.
If there are customers helpingcustomers, that's a good sign.
Yep, okay, I think that's itfor the Michalowicz episode.
His new book is all in.
You can get it on Kindle,amazon, get it shipped to you,
or I would highly recommendAudible because he's funny when
(41:17):
he reads, he likes to perform,so I like to listen to him read
his own books.
But the other books that I loveare Pumpkin Plan for Small
Business Owners Profit First forsure, because that can really
help you get your financialsbalanced out and working
correctly.
Clockwork that can help youwith your operations and
(41:38):
managing systems in yourbusiness.
And Get Different is a marketingbook that we love and use and
could talk a lot about that book.
A lot of different.
There's a framework in therethat helps you figure out what
makes you different, and we talkabout that all the time but
(41:58):
also just some blocking andtackling with marketing tactics
that come from that book thatare really great, and then his
latest book, all In, which isall about employees.
So Mike is always coming upwith a new book and a new
business.
So be on the lookout for what'snext from him, because he is
one of my go-to business leadersthat I trust.
(42:18):
I know he's done a lot ofhomework and he's gotten a lot
of great advice from people whoare in it and are doing it every
day that he can bring to thetable, and so it's solid.
Every time he writes a book Iam absolutely on board.
Amanda Ballard (42:34):
Thanks so much for listening to the Natural
Products Marketer Podcast.
We hope you found this episodeto be super helpful.
Make sure you check out theshow notes for any of those
valuable resources that wementioned on today's episode.
Tina Smith (42:45):
And, before you go, we would love for you to give us
a review.
Follow, like and subscribe onApple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube
or wherever you're listeningtoday, and make sure you join us
for our next episode, where wegive you more marketing tips so
that you can reach more peopleand change more lives.
I thought physical safety was something we
had to worry about in the 1800s.
This is how ignorant I am.
I asked my office here.
I said is there any safetyconcerns?
It was an anonymous survey.
And they came back and said,yeah, the alleyway on the side
of our office there's analleyway that goes to the
parking lot.
They said it's pitch black andwhen the sun starts setting you
know this time of year by fiveo'clock, four o'clock, it's
getting dark.
We're leaving, I, we're leaving.
(00:21):
I'm afraid about leaving theoffice and going down this dark
alleyway and I start thinkingabout it around noon.
So half the day is wasted inworry.
I'm like, oh my God.
So we put string lights up andit's super bright and you can
see exactly what's going onbecause you all the way to your
car and it's brought around thislevel of safety.
So we have to evaluate thesethings.
Tina Smith (00:42):
Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer
Podcast.
Amanda Ballard (00:45):
I'm Tina and I'm Amanda, and we're here to make
marketing easier for naturalproducts businesses, so you can
reach more people and changemore lives.
Tina Smith (00:57):
Welcome to another episode of Natural Products
Marketer Podcast, and today weare joined by one of my favorite
people, mike Michalowicz.
He is a business writer, author, speaker, and he owns I don't
know 15 different businesses.
I'm very excited to have himtoday because he I love what
(01:21):
Mike has to share, because healways talks about things that
he has stumbled through and sortof figured out.
And what he does is he has anamazing network of connections
that he goes to when he's havinga problem and he's like how do
I solve this?
And then he's a researcher toothat looks to find all the ways
that you can fix the problemthat he's having.
(01:43):
So I I'm just so excited tohave him on the podcast.
He's a great business resourceand a personal friend.
Amanda Ballard (01:52):
Yeah, and I will say I remember Tina introduced
me to Mike's work years ago andI had never heard of him before
and immediately I became afangirl and read about every
single book that he's everwritten in a very short amount
of time.
And immediately I became afangirl and read about every
single book that he's everwritten in a very short amount
of time and I was like I see whyyou like this guy so much,
because he is definitely awealth of knowledge, a super
(02:15):
easy read, super fun andpractical.
I personally love listening tohis books on Audible because
he's so animated and it's justso much fun.
So I hope you enjoy thisinterview with Mike Michalowicz.
Tina Smith (02:27):
We are excited to have you here.
Mike Michalowicz (02:30):
I can feel it.
I can feel the energy.
Tina Smith (02:35):
I feel like you're being sarcastic, but we're
excited.
Mike Michalowicz (02:38):
There's a little bit of sarcasm in there.
Good Well, I'm excited to bewith you.
Let's have some fun and be ofservice.
Tina Smith (02:44):
Yes, let's do have some fun.
We want to first talk to youabout your book.
All In, this is MikeMichalowicz, and he's my friend
and an author.
And Mike, we've known eachother for how many years now
Five, six years.
Mike Michalowicz (03:05):
Um, yeah, something like that it's been.
Yeah, I would say over fiveunder seven.
So there you go.
Tina Smith (03:11):
Right, yeah, and I first came to know who you were
through profit first.
You did a podcast on DonaldMiller's podcast for story brand
and that's how I got to knowwho you were and I connected
with one of your Profit Firstpeople and she then connected us
because she was doing great andit's Dr Sabrina Starling who is
(03:35):
wonderful.
She's an amazing business coachand she brought us together for
a business retreat.
That's where we first met, sothat was exciting.
But now you've written a newbook called All In, and it's
about getting your employees tobe all in on your business.
Mike Michalowicz (03:54):
It is.
It's also the smallest book.
I don't know if you can see it,but see, it's about that big.
So think about that.
Trying to read that.
The text is like and and thereason I did this, tina and
Amanda, I know cause you'reasking me why would the person
make a book that's the size of athimble?
And the reason is I asked DonMiller.
I said how do you get peoplemore engaged?
(04:15):
He's like make it so difficultthat they have to be fully
attentive.
And so I'm gonna make thesmallest book ever.
And sure enough, uh, no one'sread it.
Tina Smith (04:25):
And now it's blending into your background.
Mike Michalowicz (04:27):
You've got to choose that background color.
It's actually sitting on myshoulder there, yeah, so the
book's called All In thesubtitle is how Great Leaders
Build Unstoppable Teams, andwhat I did and, admittedly, what
I do with most actually all mybooks is there is something that
I'm not good at that I'mstruggling with that.
(04:50):
I want to learn how to getbetter at it, and I think I've
been a meh leader in manycapacities and I really want to
up-level my game, and I foundtechniques and strategies that
most people don't consider, andit doesn't matter if you're in
the marketing industry or ifyou're in bowling lanes or
bowling alleys, it doesn'tmatter.
(05:11):
Leadership needs to be present.
So I discovered these differenttechniques.
I've been trying them out and Iwould think I went from meh to
meh plus now to meh plus now,but I think there's ways to
elevate your game, to really bea leader that doesn't lead
through authority in thetraditional sense, leads through
(05:34):
compassion.
That actually is the ultimateexpression of authority.
Tina Smith (05:37):
Can you tell me what scale you're rating that on
from meh to?
Mike Michalowicz (05:42):
Yeah.
So you want to know the wholescale.
So the lowest is pfft, thehighest is like my god.
So somewhere between pfft andmy god is there's meh.
There's meh plus, there's likethat's pretty good.
There's like meh, I haven'tseen much better.
Then there's I've seen better,but not many.
And then there's me've seenbetter, but not many.
(06:05):
And then there's ah.
Tina Smith (06:06):
So hopefully that helped.
Meh plus, meh plus For context.
Mike Michalowicz (06:10):
Yeah, the book can get you to.
Oh my God, I really do feelthat way, but you got to execute
on it and it takes time.
Tina Smith (06:18):
Right, okay, so we are actually talking to
independent retailers.
This is what our podcast is allabout.
Natural products retailers.
This is what our podcast is allabout Natural products
retailers.
And then the independent guys,the mom and pops.
They probably have one location, sometimes they have two, maybe
a few more, but it'sconsolidated to a geographic
location and they are sometimescompeting with the publics down
(06:42):
the store that's got to buy one,get one with similar products.
So they're also competing fortalent and it's interesting,
especially right now, that'sharder than ever to get good
people in a retail setting whowant to come into a location and
be part of the community and dowhat you want to do.
(07:03):
So this could not be moretimely, I think.
Mike Michalowicz (07:07):
I agree.
I'll tell you what we've beentold to do is well for your
retail store selling thesenatural products.
What's the grand mission?
How are you serving thecommunity?
What's the goal?
That's the wrong move.
And yet we've all been toldthat, because that's going to
empower my team to rally aroundthis one point, there's partial
(07:28):
truths to it.
Here's the question I found is,as you consider people, what is
their individual visions forthemselves?
What do they want to do?
What's meaningful to them?
So the grand mistake thatleaders make, and I've made for
20 years, was saying here's thecorporate mission.
We're going to eradicateentrepreneurial poverty.
That's important to me or we'regoing to I used to be in
(07:50):
computer crime investigationwe're going to make sure that we
deliver the essence of thetruth, which is the data itself.
But when I spoke to mycolleagues, while that was great
and all one person their dreamwas to surf and navigate the
world by sailboat.
Her name is Carol.
She's like that's what I'm herefor.
(08:12):
This is great but I also want toachieve this and this is the
most important thing in my life.
Everyone has their vision andwhat a great leader will do is
understand the vision of everyindividual and that we do have
individual visions.
And then how do we lock arms?
How do we achieve this greatvision of bringing health to our
community and someone having atravel experience or whatever it
(08:36):
may be, and the other personachieving what they want?
Now, I'm not saying this isMake-A-Wish Foundation.
I'm not saying our companiesneed to satisfy these dreams,
but we need to see this iswhat's most relevant to our
colleagues and employees, justlike the corporate mission is
inevitably the most importantthing to the owner Eradicating
(08:56):
entrepreneurial poverty.
That's my mission.
That serves my ego.
I'm excited about that, mycolleagues get it and they want
to support that.
But they have other facets oftheir lives that's extremely
important to them.
They recognize what I want andtherefore they're on board.
I recognize what they want andtherefore I'm on board with them
, and it's simply just havingthe conversation about it.
(09:16):
Sometimes there's blocking andtackling.
Sometimes I can make anintroduction or vice versa and
help out, but when we show thatwe care for the mission of each
team member.
Each team member cares for themission of the corporation,
which is the mission of anotherteam member, which is the owner.
Tina Smith (09:35):
Yeah, let me give you a realistic example of how
this happens in the stores.
A lot of these people want tohelp people on their health and
wellness journey, and the ownermight be male and very excited
about sports nutrition, while wehear stories all the time like,
how do you get into thisindustry, how do you get into
(09:57):
this business?
And they hire someone who isjust trying to take care of a
major illness in their kid'slife, who is just trying to take
care of a major illness intheir kid's life and that can
open up huge doors for beingable to bring products that can
help other children or helpother moms support their kids on
while they're dealing withmajor illnesses and different
(10:19):
ways to affect that.
We've seen that happen againand again.
Mike Michalowicz (10:23):
Yeah, and the more we have the opportunity to
speak about our own individualstories and desires, the more
connection forms.
So I'll tell you a little thingwe do here at our office.
We have a daily huddle happenthis morning, 931.
That's our start time and thetraditional business huddle is
here's our mission for thecompany, here's our individual
(10:45):
tasks.
That is important.
We do need to be in alignment,we have to work in concert.
But the thing that we add is wetalk about how you're doing on
your own individual missions.
So I have it.
It's off camera, but let's seeif I can turn my camera this way
just so you can see it right.
There is a poster.
It says mike 2024.
Um, one of the missions wasintroduce introduce Tina to
(11:06):
someone for her.
To date that seemed to work outpretty well.
But on there I have differentindividual personal desires.
I have in all differentcategories.
Well, my colleagues, we allhave these and we refer to them
every meeting.
It's like, hey, do you checkanything off your list?
So we we have that personalconversation, but we're all
(11:28):
aware of what's going on.
There's something special whenthe owner of that retail store
and there's maybe two or threeother people working there,
whatever it may be, comes in themorning and says, doesn't say,
hey, let's have a great day,let's sell some vitamins.
Comes in and hey, how did lastnight go?
Did you have that conversationwith the mortgage broker?
Is the house getting a littlecloser?
(11:49):
Hey, how's your mom doing?
I know she's not doing well andthat she's such an important
facet of your life.
Those conversations buildconnection and that's what's
missing out.
So we have a deliberatepractice happens to be every
morning where thoseconversations come up.
We have a deliberate practice,happens to be every morning
where those conversations comeup no-transcript.
Amanda Ballard (12:13):
Yeah, I absolutely love that because
I've worked in corporate Americaand you know Fortune 500
companies.
Mike Michalowicz (12:19):
Sorry to hear that.
Amanda Ballard (12:21):
I know I hated it because that did not exist
and it was like you're just acog in a wheel and it was like
you know, maybe I would talk tomy manager once a week and it
was just like hey, Amanda,what's up Like that was, that
was the extent of our personalconnection.
And then when I started workingin small mom and pop businesses
(12:42):
, it was like, hey, how are yourkids?
You're heard of children, Letme, let me tell you all the
crazy stuff that's going on athome and, uh, I have four, by
the way, Um, uh.
So that was a huge, just shiftfor me personally, where I was
like this is what work can beand something that I feel like
(13:03):
the independent retailers thatwe work with need to lean into
even more is like this is astrength.
Maybe you can't pay thesalaries that this Fortune 500
company was paying me, but, mygosh, you connect with me on a
personal level and how importantthat is.
Like I would gladly work for acompany for less money if I felt
(13:26):
like I was valued.
Mike Michalowicz (13:28):
Yeah, corporate America seems to
dehumanize.
This is a generalization.
Not all corporations do this,but there's a tendency.
And what facilitates that is wehave terms like human resource.
A human resource, you're athing, not a human being.
They have to pay highersalaries because they dehumanize
(13:51):
us.
So the only way to attractsomeone is the currency tradeoff
.
Interestingly, you can't payenough to someone to feel human.
You have to be human, and so,as corporations stay a little
longer, we're going to goldenhandcuff you and, oh, your human
part.
You can have that when youleave the office.
So one advantage that smallbusiness has is we're so much
(14:15):
more intimately connected.
I think part of the reason isjust the nature of it is we have
so many job responsibilities.
There's such a strongerdependency.
So think I have a retail storewith four employees, including
myself.
If Mandy and Tina, you bothwork for me and man, if you say
I have to be with the herd ofkids today, that's 25% of the
(14:37):
work staff gone for the day.
Now, to give context, corporateAmerica with 100,000 employees.
If one person says I got to gotake care of the kids, whatever,
we have 100,000 employees, butif 25%, if 25,000 people said
can't show up today, that'd beall over the headlines of the
news 25,000 people don't showfor work.
But that's what's happening tosmall business.
(14:59):
It's just because we're playingsmall numbers, we don't think
the impact is a big deal, but itis a massive deal.
So there's a dependency and aneed for the owner to have these
employees available and to playall out.
And because we're small, wehave this intimacy.
So I really want to know aboutyou, because I really depend on
you and we're small, we havethis intimacy so.
So I really want to know aboutyou, because I really depend on
you and we're small enough andintimate enough.
(15:19):
I really want to get to knowyou.
I think we can level it up,though, and make it a deliberate
practice.
I think it comes out out ofjust natural conversations hey,
let's go have pizza together.
I think there can be somedeliberate activities.
I'll give you one example thatwe have here in our office.
I think, tina, you've been here, have you seen the tree?
(15:47):
Have you been here?
Have you seen the tree?
Okay, so we have a tree in ouroffice, on the wall outside of
my office, and it's just abarren piece of wallpaper shaped
like a tree, no leaves on oranything.
But every time you accomplish apersonal vision, you have for
yourself a dream or desire, youfill it out on this leaf and you
start putting on the tree.
So the tree blooms.
(16:07):
What we've been doing this fornow about four or three or four
years and there's hundreds ofleaves up there, some things as
innocuous as I cleaned out myattic but that was a dream.
Someone had, like it's beenfrustrating.
That person was Corday, beenfrustrating her for years and
she put on her list and we saidhow's that attic going?
(16:27):
And she actually took a halfday one day and just got done.
She's like thanks forsupporting me in this.
I would never got doneotherwise.
Right next to it is one thatsays five years cancer-free.
That was Amy who said my dreamis never to have this horrible
disease to come back.
All the dreams are important.
We shouldn't rate thesignificance to what it means to
(16:48):
our colleagues, but we alsoneed to celebrate it, so that's
part of our practice.
It was about a year or sixmonths ago.
I said gosh, there's so manyleaves up here.
I think we should pull all theleaves down and restart.
And my colleagues eight of ushere at the office said no
stinking way, those leaves stayup forever because that's
meaningful accomplishments andit's not recognized in other
parts of my life.
(17:09):
Not their words, but definitelythe intuition that came, the
intonation that came out of whatthey were saying.
So I said, well, how do wecelebrate all of the new visions
that are being accomplished?
And I think it was Andrea whosaid, well, why don't we get
flowers and start putting themon the ground and why don't we
put clouds and birds up?
And everyone will be arecognition of something we
accomplished.
(17:29):
And, by the way, you write downexactly what you did on it, you
sign it, you put the date andyou put it up there.
It's a good way to pay homageto your colleagues' dreams and
visions and, selfishly,reciprocity.
When we care for each other,each other cares for the whole
group and the business getselevated.
Tina Smith (17:48):
Yeah, so can you give us some idea of the overall
framework from gettingemployees to be all in?
Mike Michalowicz (17:56):
Yeah, sure, sure, sure.
So it's an acronym F-A-S-O.
Faso kind of rhymes with lasso,and there's four elements I
dove into.
First is a fit.
When we do what we like to do,it's no longer a job, and I know
we've heard this and you'veexperienced it.
There is another great book outthere.
(18:18):
It's called Working Genius byPat Lencioni, and he talks about
identifying where your fieldsof passion he calls it genius
are and how excellent we can bewhen we do what we're great at.
So the first job of a leader isto realize that every human
being is actually an A player.
(18:39):
There's this fallacy out therethat 10% of the population is A
players.
But when I survey audiencesI'll say, hey, just in this room
, who here is an A player?
And I'm like don't be bashfulhere, I want to know the God's
truth.
Every hand goes up in everyroom I'm in and I'm like this is
the truth.
Everyone's an A player.
If we are doing the right thing, that compels us, that gives us
(19:00):
energy and drive.
It's the thing we want to do,we feel called to do, and some
of us need guidance to find that.
But we definitely know whenwe're not doing it.
So the first job of theentrepreneur, the leader, is to
identify where can people excel?
Do you have a person in yourstore who's the great
communicator and just really isgreat at socializing?
How do you have them engage thecommunity more?
Do someone who's great atvetting out products,
(19:21):
negotiating the purchasing orsomething move people toward
that?
And the ironic thing about whenyou find and develop people's
desires, they don't need to comewith experience.
I think there's a thought likeoh, you know, someone's got five
or six years experience doingthis.
They have to know what they'redoing.
No, no, no.
Someone who's thirsty willlearn really fast and will learn
(19:43):
your way.
So don't necessarily needexperience, but you do need the
next thing.
So A stands for ability.
You do need that hiddenpotential ability.
Most organizations considerexperiential talent.
They say, well, what's yourpast?
Because that indicates yourfuture.
As we know, that doesn'tnecessarily mean anything.
Someone could say they can saywhatever they want on resumes,
(20:05):
particularly chat GPT.
Now you say whatever you wantand chat GPT will make you look
amazing.
But we want to look forpotential.
So the question is how do youfind potential?
So here's a super cool tip Runworkshops.
So the question is how do youfind potential?
So here's a super cool tip Runworkshops.
So what you can do.
Instead of saying we're lookingto hire someone, you can say hey
, everything about working inthe natural food space or
(20:30):
natural vitamins and so forth,everything about working in the
retail space.
We have a workshop where youcan come in and experience this
for a couple of days, see whatit's like.
The interesting thing aboutworkshops is you can even charge
people for this thing, and it'seven better you do this.
Charge them 50 bucks because itvets out their interest and say
show up, try this out and wewill show you what it's like.
(20:50):
Maybe you even want to run yourown store one day.
Now, the interesting thing ispeople that show up are truly
curious.
That's the first definition ofpotential.
As we teach, we also observe,and the people who are curious
they ask questions, show desire,are people that probably would
be good employees, and there arecertain people that hit the
level I call thirst, where theycan't quit.
(21:11):
It's like this is who I am.
So run a workshop to vet outpeople who want to learn,
because learners are the Aplayers.
Right, we want to learn and getbetter at something that we've
interest in, and the people whoshow thirst may be your
employees.
This isn't just theory.
Home Depot next time you see abuild a birdhouse workshop and
you go down there to build abirdhouse, that is a recruiting
(21:33):
platform.
People are like no, no, no,they're trying to sell products
Ultimately.
They want me to be happy withthe store.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'ssecondary.
They're recruiting.
They want to see the people whoshow up curious.
They want to see the peoplethat ask the most questions,
help other folks that are there,desire and the weirdo that
comes like two or three times ina row every workshop, every
weekend I'm building a birdhouse.
(21:53):
They'll approach you and sayhave you ever considered working
at Home Depot?
You're the exact type ofcandidate we're looking for.
You vet people without tellingthem.
You're vetting them.
You do it through education.
Two more things, real quick.
The S in this model stands forsafety.
You need to set an environment,of course, that we feel safe.
Physical safety, relationalsafety, emotional safety.
(22:15):
Those are all components andthe leader has influence over it
.
I thought physical safety wassomething we had to worry about
in the 1800s.
This is how ignorant I am.
I asked my office here.
I said is there any safetyconcerns?
It was an anonymous survey andthey came back and said, yeah,
the alleyway, on the side of ouroffice there's an alleyway that
goes to the parking lot.
They said it's pitch black andwhen the sun starts setting you
know, this time of year by fiveo'clock, four o'clock, it's
(22:37):
getting dark.
We're leaving.
I'm afraid about of leaving theoffice and going down this dark
alleyway.
And, uh, I started thinkingabout around noon.
So half the day is wasted andworry.
I'm like, oh my God.
So we put string lights up andit's super bright and you can
see exactly what's going on.
You can see all the way to yourcar and it's brought around
this level of safety.
So we have to evaluate thesethings.
(22:58):
I'll tell you that that's maybeobvious.
If, once you ask, I'll tell yousomething.
That's not obvious is financialsafety.
I think what many leaders,small business owners think is I
need to pay my people more.
That gives them safety and itdoes not.
Financial safety comes out fromfinancial understanding, and one
way that employers can helpwith this is by having open
(23:19):
books.
We've had open books now for 10years.
We don't share salaries.
That's all blended in expensesbecause we want to protect
people's privacy.
But they know the healthyorganization and what's so
interesting about this is whenyou know the healthy
organization, you have asecurity that your future is
secured or not.
If the organization isstruggling, you know that maybe
(23:41):
it's time to take action, butyou see what's going on, as
opposed to this opaque reality,master mystery, where you don't
know what's going on.
So we have open books and whatI found is that people feel
comfort in knowing the health ofthe organization and feel much
more secure in their positions.
Yes, you have to pay people acompetitive salary, but not
(24:01):
everyone's driven by a salary.
Actually, many people aredriven by lifestyle and salary
is secondary to them.
They have secured themselvesfinancially to the degree they
want to.
They want a comfortablelifestyle, and so they want to.
They want a comfortablelifestyle, and so they want to
make sure their position isgoing to be there.
So open books doesn't justeducate your employees.
It gives them a sense ofsecurity.
The last thing is ownership.
Ownership is where someonefeels and acts like an owner of
(24:23):
the business.
It's actually the number onething I hear from people is I
wish my employees would act likeowners.
So how do you get someone tofeel like owners?
You don't give them equity.
Equity, in fact, can result inentitlement.
There's these ESOP programs andstuff, where you own a small
part of the business.
What seems to happendisproportionately is employees
say I own some.
(24:44):
Now Where's my money?
You owe me.
That's entitlement.
Instead, you can use what'scalled psychological ownership.
That's entitlement.
Instead, you can use what'scalled psychological ownership.
Psychological ownership are thepsychological triggers that
cause someone to feel that whatthe business is is actually part
of them.
There's an association of theiridentity to the business.
The business is me and I am thebusiness.
(25:04):
And you'll hear that inemployees when someone says you
know, I don't know if, if thestore or your store is selling
as effectively as it could, asopposed to I don't know if our
store is selling as effectivelyas it could.
When you hear our or this is myjob.
That's a definition ofpossession, meaning that I
associate myself with theorganization.
(25:24):
So how do you invoke it?
Give people intimate knowledge,ability to learn skills.
You do it through control,meaning that they have authority
over something.
Many business owners becomemicromanagers, actually
stripping away control.
So people don't feel that theyhave ownership.
And the last thing is you givethem the ability to personalize.
How do I make it more of my own?
I'll give you one quick example.
(25:47):
I know I'm doing a big diatribehere, but I wanted to give the
full context.
If you rent a car, you clearlydon't feel ownership.
You leave that Hertz orwhatever and you do donuts in
the parking lot.
We definitely abuse the car andwe surely don't wash it before
we return it.
But when you own a car youmight get it washed occasionally
.
You're probably not abusing thecar and doing donuts.
(26:07):
You're not skidding into everysingle light or peeling out when
it turns green.
Why is that?
Because you may not even ownyour car.
Maybe the bank who legally ownsit.
But we feel like we own it.
We even say we own it.
Why?
Because you personalize it,program all the radio stations.
You probably don't program theradio stations in your rental
car.
You put a bumper sticker onyour car or window sticker.
(26:27):
You probably don't do that witha rental car.
You determine when you want todrive it.
This is a control when you wantto drive it, where you want to
take it.
The rental car probablyactually gives you rules Can't
take it out of the country,can't do a certain amount of
miles.
You can do what you want withyour car control and you have
intimate knowledge.
When you bought your car youmay have gone through that
entire manual.
You know, in the middle ofJanuary, shivering to death
(26:48):
outside like, what does thisbutton do?
Do you even read the manual inthe rental car?
You just want to know where theturn signal is.
Those three elements aresignificant in giving someone a
sense of ownership, even thoughthey don't, in this case, the
bank, owns it.
You know, legally own something, so you can do that in your
business.
Tina Smith (27:05):
They still have printed like car manuals.
Printed like car manuals.
Yeah, have you bought a carrecently?
Mike Michalowicz (27:17):
Oh, they do, it's always in the glove
compartment, I'm just teasingyou.
Amanda Ballard (27:19):
I'm teasing you, I know.
So, Mike, I do have a questionabout this whole open books and
ownership and where that maybeoverlaps a little bit.
So I know you said you knowmaybe not necessarily give them
equity stake in the company, butsomething like doing a
commission or some sort ofprofit share type situation in
(27:40):
an area where they feel likethey have ownership.
Is that something that youfound works well?
Mike Michalowicz (27:46):
Yeah.
So we've tested that and it canbe a motivational factor.
I am consistently surprised howfew people are motivated by
money and what I found in my ownorganization.
So this is an antidote, morethan data.
We have eight of us here.
We do a profit share and we doit every quarter.
(28:07):
20% of the profits that come outof the company get evenly
distributed, regardless of yoursalaries.
So everyone gets the same sliceand no one really says anything
.
It's like and I'm not, I'm not.
It's not ingratitude, they'renot ingrates, it's just.
This is normal.
And I said well, why are wedoing this If no one's like
thanks, mike, and let's, let'spush forward next quarter.
And I'm like oh, for me as theleader, it makes me feel good, I
(28:31):
feel that I'm doing somethingto honor my colleagues who are
putting an effort in here.
So profit distribution, Irealize at least in my case, but
in other people's cases tooit's really a reward for the
giver, not the receiver.
So observe and play those tools.
The interesting thing is peoplewill say, oh, money's a
motivator.
(28:52):
Absolutely, I'll work harderfor a commission.
The reality is, when people arefully embraced and encouraged
to be their full selves, they goall out.
I suspect both of you play allout in your businesses on your
podcast, not because of thecompensation you're receiving,
just because that's the natureof who you are and that's what I
believe most people are is whenwe're in the right environment,
able to express ourselves theway we want to express ourselves
(29:14):
, we will play all out.
I'm not saying everyone willplay all out for any company
because it may not be a fit.
In fact, small businesses wherewe have four or five employees,
most people that you considerwon't be a fit.
That's why we got to do theseworkshops and test people out.
Those are A players.
It's not A players for you.
They need to find positionselsewhere.
Tina Smith (29:36):
Yeah, I want to talk before you leave about this
return on payroll concept thatyou talked about.
Mike Michalowicz (29:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Tina Smith (29:46):
So tell us about you were talking about three times
the salary should be where therevenue is when you hire an
employee.
Tell me more about that andwhere you've seen it work or
what tweaks you make when it'snot working.
Mike Michalowicz (30:03):
Yeah, it's a rule of thumb.
Most small businesses becomeoverstaffed and they are so
burdened by payroll it's a slowdeath of the business they can't
sustain.
So what we do is we use as arule of thumb so if a business
is doing, let's say, $300,000 ayear and overall payroll and
this includes the owners is200,000.
(30:23):
We know that business shouldreally be doing about 600,000,
three times payroll to be in ahealthy position.
We know immediately there's redflags and we have to go into a
deep evaluation.
So that's what it's used asit's just a rule of thumb
analysis on the fiscal state ofa business.
For most retail businesses, thenumber one expense is payroll
(30:46):
and number two is rent orownership of the building.
Sometimes the building comesfirst and then the employees
come next and then inventory.
Those are the big three.
What's interesting is when itcomes to cutting costs on
inventory, it's a thing we'relike, yeah, yeah, when it comes
to cutting or controlling costswith employees, that becomes a
very emotional decision.
(31:06):
I've had this person for twoyears.
I can't let them go.
So it's the thing that we becomeleast critical of or we become
most avoidant of, and that's whythat number is so important to
understand so you can make anappropriate decision.
I will share this If you areoverstaffed and your business is
dying.
This belief that I try to saveeveryone while my business
(31:27):
collapses is like saying theTitanic's going to float again.
No, we got to get people offthe ship, and sometimes you have
to save the ship by letting afew people move on to other
opportunities so you can get thebusiness to be fiscally healthy
again.
And that's a very hard decision.
So we have to look at thenumbers first.
Amanda Ballard (31:44):
Do you do that over a period of time?
You know initially when I makethat hire.
If I'm hiring someone for, youknow, $60,000 a year, I expect
to see that three X return.
Mike Michalowicz (31:56):
Yeah, I expect to see 180.
Yeah, it may not be overnight,but that's gotta be my plan.
And so if I hire someone todaythat's making 60, I got to say
this business has to be bringingan additional 180 by such and
such period.
Tina Smith (32:16):
And I commit not to making more hires or any more
decisions in the meantime untilthis person is doing that.
Yeah, and I would justencourage anyone that if you
find that you're oversteppedlike you're talking about like
the burden financial burden isheavy on the employee side of
things and this math isn'tworking for you.
Look at profit first, becausethere are a number of things
that you can do, which willinclude evaluating and like
moving people out if necessary,but there are also other things
(32:37):
where expenses are too much andways to create more revenue that
you're probably just notthinking about right now, and
revenue will solve a lot ofproblems for businesses, like
sales growth if done well withthe same amount of staff, will
solve a lot of problems.
Mike Michalowicz (32:55):
That's exactly true.
Tina Smith (32:56):
Anything else that you just want to close out with?
Mike Michalowicz (33:00):
Well, if I can share the resource, mike
Motorbike nickname from gradeschool, the only PG one I had,
as in the motorcyclemikemotorbikecom.
All my resources are up therepre-booked chapters and so forth
.
Tina Smith (33:12):
Well, thanks for joining us for that episode with
Mike Michalowicz.
That was super fun and I alwaysenjoy chatting with him as we
were going through the all in abook that he's written.
I was just thinking about Iwonder if this is what he did to
help me find my fiance.
Did he create a workshopsituation?
(33:35):
And I'm sorry he's not on hereto enjoy this right now, cause
he is so proud that heintroduced me to the man I'm now
marrying.
Well done, mike.
He thinks that he should start.
We've talked about like he has15 businesses, but he thinks he
should start a matchmakingbusiness because it worked once.
Amanda Ballard (33:54):
I mean, you got to start somewhere, right.
Tina Smith (33:57):
He has 100% record that it works and I'm only
sharing this because we actuallygot engaged at the Senpa show
in September, so it's somethingI mean.
I just feel like this communityis part of my whole story now,
both my business, mike McAllen'scommunity and now the natural
(34:19):
products community.
So it's been the whole wayalong our journey.
So Mike introduced me.
You guys are where we you guysare where we.
Amanda Ballard (34:38):
I said, yes, all the things.
Tina Smith (34:39):
So the stars aligned and everything is great.
So thank you, mike Michalowicz.
Yeah, anything um Amanda thatkind of stuck out for you as he
was talking through the processof All In.
Amanda Ballard (34:48):
You know, one of my favorite things that he said
and as I've been reading thebook is that every person is an
A player, and I feel like, inworking in retail for as long as
I have, it's easy to feel likethere's B and C players on your
(35:08):
team and get frustrated, and Ithink that there's something to
be said about.
Everyone is an A player.
They just might not be an Aplayer in your business, and so
if you can find a place for themin your business where they can
shine as an A player, do thatif you want to keep them around,
(35:29):
if there is an opportunity forthem to shine in that area, but
if not, there's an opportunityelsewhere, because everyone has
their own unique ability.
So I thought that was a reallyimportant reminder, just because
it is so easy to get frustratedwith underperformers, but
knowing just how valuable peopleare as individuals and I love
(35:52):
that he was talking about his,you know this community that
he's building within his ownteams, and I see that in the
stores that I've worked in andvisited, they really are almost
like family, and so I do thinkthat that is something that
again sets these independentbusinesses apart, and as long as
(36:14):
we just are always thinkingabout how valuable people are as
individuals.
Whether or not there's aperfect fit for them in our
company is one thing, but just areminder of how important it is
to treat people with respectand remember how valuable they
are.
Tina Smith (36:31):
Yeah, and you know another thing that stood out to
me because I've seen it happen.
So as he was talking about it,I was like, oh my gosh, this
reminds me of that scenario thathappened with this retailer.
But he's talking about theseworkshops and using them as well
.
You're educating, which is hugein this industry.
You're educating the public,but the people who come and
(36:54):
attend over and over again,they're the people who are most
interested in the type ofeducation that you want to
provide to everyone anyway.
And then, second, they areprobably people that are
referring they're probably superreferrers to educational events
or whatever they've learned.
If you watch the people who havelearned things in your
(37:16):
workshops, the next time they'rein the store, if they're
sharing that with anothercustomer without being prompted,
that's a perfect opportunity.
And it just reminds me of whensomeone has a health issue and
they're willing to help someoneelse and we've seen that happen
(37:37):
and then they end up being areally great employee and
talking through that ownershippiece of it.
Then they start to own aparticular section and they
attract more people like them.
So, whether it's hey, I'm a mom, I deal with this chronic issue
for my kid or pets We'vetotally seen this happen in a
(37:57):
pet department.
Amanda Ballard (37:59):
Yeah, absolutely , and I think you know customers
really can make the bestemployees as long as they're
given opportunity, anopportunity and I know that
there was something that wewanted to talk about and we
didn't have the time to butbuilding a bench for when you
have a need almost like making alist ahead of time of these are
(38:23):
whether it's a potential,whether it's a customer or
someone you've interviewed inthe past, or a previous employee
that's maybe moved on eventhough you absolutely loved
working with them, whoever theyare.
Have a list of potential benchpeople that you could pull in
whenever you have a need thatneeds to be filled.
I thought that was a reallygood insight from the book.
Tina Smith (38:43):
Yeah, you know.
What else, though, about thatvery topic, I was thinking about
having the bench available.
Like, you start having theseconversations and you realize
that someone could be a reallygood fit for working with you,
but you don't have a positionyet.
I think the stores haveopportunities because they do
(39:05):
these events, whether it's ahealth fair or something's
happening on a weekend, and theyneed extra people to hand out
samples or something like that.
It's the perfect time to offersome compensation for a short
period of time, like, hey, wouldyou be willing to come and give
us a hand at this event?
All we need you to do is passout samples for this thing that
(39:26):
you already love and talk topeople about it, and we can pay
you.
And that way, you're notoverstaffing up and they're
getting to know you.
You're getting to know themwhere you're kind of having this
trial period of dating, andthen, when a position's
available and they're stillinterested, hopefully then you
(39:48):
have someone who's ready to fillthat role.
Amanda Ballard (39:52):
Yeah, absolutely .
I think that's wise and I'veseen it play out so I know it
can be done.
So it's definitely it requiresnurturing those relationships
and just staying in touch.
But I think it's well worth it,because you never know when
staff can change and to be ableto pull people in, at least
(40:18):
having that relationshipavailable to you.
They might say no, they mightnot be interested at the time,
but you at least have a place tostart, as opposed to just
posting a job listing on a jobboard somewhere.
Tina Smith (40:31):
And it's probably your customer, yeah, like,
because those are people who aremost interested in what you're
doing.
So I mean, just think about thenumber of customers that are
coming through these stores.
There's a whole job poolsitting right there because
they're already interested inthat kind of work you're doing
and they could be great so youget to have that customer
(40:54):
interaction with them every day.
So I would be on the lookout.
If there are customers helpingcustomers, that's a good sign.
Yep, okay, I think that's itfor the Michalowicz episode.
His new book is all in.
You can get it on Kindle,amazon, get it shipped to you,
or I would highly recommendAudible because he's funny when
(41:17):
he reads, he likes to perform,so I like to listen to him read
his own books.
But the other books that I loveare Pumpkin Plan for Small
Business Owners Profit First forsure, because that can really
help you get your financialsbalanced out and working
correctly.
Clockwork that can help youwith your operations and
(41:38):
managing systems in yourbusiness.
And Get Different is a marketingbook that we love and use and
could talk a lot about that book.
A lot of different.
There's a framework in therethat helps you figure out what
makes you different, and we talkabout that all the time but
(41:58):
also just some blocking andtackling with marketing tactics
that come from that book thatare really great, and then his
latest book, all In, which isall about employees.
So Mike is always coming upwith a new book and a new
business.
So be on the lookout for what'snext from him, because he is
one of my go-to business leadersthat I trust.
(42:18):
I know he's done a lot ofhomework and he's gotten a lot
of great advice from people whoare in it and are doing it every
day that he can bring to thetable, and so it's solid.
Every time he writes a book Iam absolutely on board.
Amanda Ballard (42:34):
Thanks so much for listening to the Natural
Products Marketer Podcast.
We hope you found this episodeto be super helpful.
Make sure you check out theshow notes for any of those
valuable resources that wementioned on today's episode.
Tina Smith (42:45):
And, before you go, we would love for you to give us
a review.
Follow, like and subscribe onApple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube
or wherever you're listeningtoday, and make sure you join us
for our next episode, where wegive you more marketing tips so
that you can reach more peopleand change more lives.
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