United for Change: The Impact of DSHEA and the Future of the Natural Products Industry

Episode Transcript
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Tina Smith (00:06):
Okay, well, we'll go ahead and get started.
Welcome to the United forChange 30 Years of Dachet
webinar brought to you by CENPAand Natural Products Marketer.
I'm Tina Smith, with NaturalProducts Marketer, and I am
honored to have the opportunityto lead this discussion.
We're so excited to have you aswe celebrate 30 years of the

(00:28):
Dietary Supplement Health andEducation Act, or DSHEA.
Now, a lot of you know whatDSHEA is and some of you are
afraid of it and some of you areexcited about it, but we are
here to explore its long-termimpact on the natural products
industry.
Over the next hour or so, we'regoing to dive into the origins
of Deshaies, hearing directlyfrom the pioneers who played

(00:50):
pivotal roles in its creation.
We'll explore the key momentsthat shaped this legislation and
discuss how it continues toinfluence our industry today and
into the future.
We have this webinar scheduledfor about an hour and a half,
but we want to leave a big partof it open for audience
questions.
So here's what you can expect.

(01:10):
For at least the first hour,we're going to give a brief
background on Dachet, what it isand even how it came to be.
Two, we're going to have apanel discussion, and we are
joined by distinguishedpanelists Cheryl Hughes of the
Whole Weedery Store andRestaurant, s Upton, the CEO of
Planetary Herbals, deborah Short, executive Director of SendPuff

(01:31):
, peter Broadhead, formerco-owner of Brighter Day Natural
Foods Market, and Bruce Cohenof Nutrition World and Palm
Beach Gardens, florida.
They're going to share theirfirsthand experiences and
insights from the early days ofDachet.
Then after that, we're going towalk right into a Q&A session.
So we're going to have that ledby our emerging leaders in the

(01:54):
industry, including KatieColeman from Nutrition World in
Chattanooga, amanda Ballard ofthe Natural Products Marketer
and board member of CINPA, brianMosser, also board member of
CINPA, director of businessdevelopment of Get Healthy, and
Ryan Simpson-Brenner, head ofmarketing for Enzymedica.

(02:14):
Now we want your interactionduring this webinar.
So please, all along the way,you can submit questions in our
chat feature.
You'll notice at the bottomthere's a Q&A section and a chat
section.
If you'll just stick to thatchat section, we'll be able to
gather everyone's questions fromone place.
And just a quick reminderbefore we begin the webinar the

(02:36):
Soho Expo is almost here.
It's September 12th through the15th in Orlando and there is
still room for you to join.
So head to CINPAorg and getregistered, because we would
love to meet you in person, andit's a fantastic opportunity to
network and to continue thisconversation on Deshaies and
connect with panelists and otherindustry professionals.

(02:58):
So, without further ado, let'sget started.
Debra, I'm going to start withyou.
I would love to have a briefoverview of what in the world
Deshaies is anyway, and I'masking to unmute you.

Debra Short (03:18):
Hey, hey, hey, everyone, thank you all for
being here.
I appreciate it.
Santa is wanting to make surethat we all have our voices
heard, so I'll kind of gothrough just a little bit of
what we know about the SHEA.
The Dietary Supplement, healthand Education Act of 1994 is a

(03:39):
US federal law that defines andregulates dietary supplements.
This act was intended to exemptdietary supplements from
industry from most FDA drugregulations, but it also
established standards for thesupplements and prohibited
manufacturers from making falseclaims.
So by enacting this law,deshaies, it defines a dietary

(04:00):
supplement as a category of foodand it establishes standards
for them, including safety andlabeling requirements.
So those naysayers that are outthere who think our industry is
unregulated, well, deshaiestook care of that.
So this year we celebrate the30th anniversary of Deshaies,
resounding the voice and historyof how our industry included
our retailers and how ourretailers sent messages to

(04:22):
consumers by using the officialBlackout Day campaign across the
nation on August the 13th 1994,which was just a few days ago.
This campaign made an impact onour elected officials on the
Hill.
The industry effort went on tothe passage of Deshaies and we
all worked together for thecommon cause of defending all

(04:43):
our health freedoms and theeffort led to the second largest
letter writing campaign thatCongress ever experienced, next
to the Vietnam War.
You guys have probably heardthat a million times.
Well, we have a story to telland we have an industry to unite
and I think, using this calland with the people and the
veterans and the new emergingleaders that we have on this
call, we're going to be able toaccomplish just that.

(05:04):
I look forward to yourquestions and, tina, back to you
.

Tina Smith (05:09):
Thanks so much, deborah.
That's interesting.
I know you say there were a fewthings that we've all heard a
thousand times, but every timeyou talk about the Shea I feel
like I learned something more,even if you've said it a hundred
times.
So keep saying it.
Peter, I'm going to move overto you now and talk.
I know you were a lobbyistduring the formation of Deshaies

(05:30):
, so I'm curious what is thebackground Like?
What was going on in theindustry around that time?

Peter Broadhead (05:36):
Yeah, there was so much uncertainty at that
time that was going on becausewe you would hear things and
you'd know didn't know what theFDA might be doing next.
So one of the first sort ofgalvanizing moments happened on
a raid on a famous naturalmedical doctor.
Dr Jonathan Wright, who is very, very well known, had a clinic

(05:59):
out in Tacoma, washington, wrotefor Prevention Magazine at that
time, was just very well knownhe was.
They went in and ransacked hisclinic and shut it down because
he was using preservative freenutrients that he would get from
Germany doing IV treatments andso this was a whole thing of

(06:21):
just kind of like an FDA actingat their will doing things.
So it galvanized that and Ialso had a second incident that
I want to talk about that reallywas very relevant to that.
We had a very popular productthat was made by Terry Lemeran,
enzymatic Therapy.

(06:41):
At that time he made a productcalled Thymic Fractions, thymic
Extract, and we actually had alocal medical doctor who used it
and had extremely good resultsin helping him with hepatitis B
supporting it.
It became very, very popular inour town and word got out
nationally.
Well, the FDA just randomlywent in and stopped enzymatic

(07:03):
therapy from marketing thatproduct, pulled it off the
shelves no real reason that weknew of, and changed everything
around on it, and so we were ata point where just tremendous
uncertainty you didn't know whatthey were going to do next.
There was just a randomness totheir actions that we felt, and

(07:25):
we felt very vulnerable to whatwas going on at that time.

Tina Smith (07:29):
That does sound really scary.
If you owned a retail store,roy, first I realized that I got
your introduction wrong, sotell people who you are and also
give us a little bit ofinformation about your role in
helping develop the Dachetlegislation.

Roy Upton (07:51):
So my position is American Herbal Pharmacopeia.
I'm the president of theAmerican Herbal Pharmacopeia but
I'm also the director ofPlanetary Herbals, which is a
division of Threshold, andThreshold Enterprises is a
California-based distributor andwe were central in organizing
the National Blackout Day.
In the first case, deshaies wasactually prompted in a great

(08:19):
manner because of the NutritionLabeling and Education Act,
because of the NutritionLabeling and Education Act which
was passed in like 1999 to 2000.
And when the FDA wrote theregulations of how that law
would be administered and thatlaw was meant to provide
manufacturers with an ability tomake health claims on food

(08:39):
products fiber and heart disease, fiber and cancer, b6 and folic
acid for birth defects, calcium, osteoporosis, things like that
.
But when they wrote theregulations they had very
specific targeted nutrients thatthey said anything above 150

(09:01):
percent of anDA, which isridiculously low from a
nutritional perspective, shallbe regulated as a drug.
And then the one sentence thatgot me was that any herb whose
only use is for medicinalpurposes shall be regulated as a
drug.
So that meant that most of theherbs would come off the market

(09:22):
because nobody was going to paythe $231 million to go through
the drug approval process.
That turned me from a folkloricor a local herbalist into a
political activist.
That never stopped.
So then, I think we're going totalk about Blackout Day a
little later, is that true?

Tina Smith (09:41):
Well, I was going to actually say you brought it up.
So tell us what in the world isblackout day, because I had
actually never heard that before.
Debra talked about it recently.

Roy Upton (09:51):
Yeah.
So when the NLEA regulationssaid that many of the nutrients
and the potencies and the herbalproducts that we always had
access to, they were always partof the public domain, just like
foods are part of the publicdomain, just like foods are part
of the public domain we sawthat nothing was safe.
And actually the idea originalidea came from Daniel Gagnon who

(10:15):
had a retail store called HerbsEtc in Santa Fe, new Mexico,
and Daniel, on his own, he didhis own blackout day, just
individually, where he drapedhis shelves and when customers
came in looking for somethinghe's like sorry, I can't give it
to you because FDA is going totake it off the shelf pretty
soon and he turned his storeinto a political action center.

(10:38):
Then Nature's Way contacted himand said hey, we want to do
this nationally.
And then I got wind of it andwith Threshold Enterprises we
had distribution throughout theentire country, 80% penetration
into the retail market.
So for the next year we wrotepetitions, political action

(11:00):
letters on how they could maketheir retail store a political
action center, how to contacttheir senators, their
congresspeople, how to lobbylocally, the phone numbers to
call.
We gave every hand-fed, everyretailer and every natural
healthcare practitioner almostin the country a script for how

(11:22):
to defend their right to use theherbs and the nutrients that
they used to for theirhealthcare needs.
And again with Cheryl Hughes aswell.
Cheryl and I did a lot of worktogether and organizing.
Cheryl had shopping bags andbadges that retailers could wear

(11:45):
.
She printed them at her owncost.
We printed all the material andsent them out into every order.
If we had 300 orders going outthe door every day, there were
300 political action packs goinginto every order and that's
what stimulated a great deal ofthe consumer interest in

(12:07):
defending our rights and inleading to the passage of
Deshaies.
The one other thing I will sayis that every store did
something a little bit different.
Wild Oats in New Mexico had ahealth fair outside in front of
their store.
They didn't stop selling theherbs, but they made sure that
every customer knew they had astatue of liberty that was put

(12:32):
outside like a woman dressed asa statue of liberty, you know,
saying we have to defend ourhealth freedom.
The herb room here we in SantaCruz, we blocked off three out
of four of the aisles.
It's a very small store andsaid in a year, unless you sign
this right now and we would putin the envelope, put a stamp on

(12:53):
it and unless you call these twonumbers, our Congress people
and our senators right now,you're not going to have access
to these in a year.
And that's what really.
And everybody did their ownthing.
You know, some people did radiopodcasts or video shows, public
TV, different types of eventsat their store.

(13:15):
We even did events all over thecountry for acupuncturists,
naturopaths, consumers.
It was pretty amazing of how wecould mobilize our consumer
base.

Tina Smith (13:29):
That's so interesting, Roy.
It sounds like everyone fromthe industry just started coming
together and working towardthis cause together.
Bruce, I'd love to talk to you.
You were a retailer during thistime.
I'm sure you had some of thesecampaigns going on at your store
, but before Blackout Day, howwere you feeling?

(13:52):
It feels like there was a lotof uncertainty.

Bruce Cohen (13:55):
Well, we had been involved with the industry since
the late 1960s and we had atthe time six stores and we
organized a campaign to meetevery congressperson within our
districts.
Plus, we organized furthersouth in southern Florida to

(14:16):
meet other congressmen, senatorsfrom the state in Florida to
push them to co-sponsor the Shealegislation and it was very
successful.
I mean meeting with CongressmanAlcee Hastings, which is
outside my district but veryclose to our district, to listen

(14:39):
to his stories and stuff andthen him making phone calls for
us as a congressman to his otherfriends who were congressmen to
get them to support the bill.
Was really powerful to us.
We in our stores blacked out wehad coffins in the store, we had

(15:00):
funeral homes, bring hearses toeach store, had funeral homes,
bring hearses to each store, andwe really, you know, did the
letter writing campaigns, wefaxed anything we can do, as Roy
was saying, the phone calls.
We did it all and it wasamazing how the reaction, you
know, when you spoke to acongressman or their aides, they

(15:23):
knew all about this by the timewe got to them and it was just
getting them on board asco-sponsors of the bill and they
told us they've never seenanything like what our industry
was doing.
It was a really great time.
I mean it was scary, but it wasgreat, and customers got
involved.
It was very exciting.

Tina Smith (15:48):
Yeah, cheryl, same for you.
Tell us more about how you werefeeling and what tactics.
We already put some things upon the screen that were going on
at your store, but what kind oftactics were you putting in
place and how are you feelingbefore and during this?

Cheryl Hughes (16:02):
Well, I think the most important thing to note is
that there were so manyorganizations that jumped in on
this.
They, I think the mostimportant thing to note is that
there were so many organizationsthat jumped in on this.
They were all over the country.
Mpa, which was in an FAA, hadbranches all over the country.
It was very easy to communicateto each other and everybody got
involved in this.
As we said, we had so manypeople to pull at and to learn

(16:23):
how to communicate with ourcongressmen and our senators.
Some of us got to testifybefore Congress.
We got to talk to our localschools and newspapers.
We got to put out pressreleases.
We were coached on how to speak.
There were groups that wereorganized to go before each
congressperson and senator onlobby day.
That was really an incredibleopportunity for all of us to

(16:46):
learn how to get your voiceheard.
People thought that your voicedidn't matter.
Well, we proved them all wrongby telling them how important it
was to matter.
And when they walked into astore and saw what they couldn't
buy any longer, it was veryclear, because a picture is
worth a thousand words and youcan tell customers oh, you
weren't going to get this,because they're talking about

(17:07):
seed oils.
They're talking about enzymes,amino acids.
They're talking about orotates.
They're talking aboutantioxidants, herb tinctures.
All this stuff was going to beremoved.
We heard about Jonathan Wright.
We heard about the guns beingdrawn by the FDA.
We heard about the raids onvarious stores.
Everybody was nervous.
The stores that were doing areally good job in monitoring

(17:29):
the companies that had truth andlabeling and had efficacious
products were not as scared assome of the other people that we
were up against, which wasthere are groups of people that
can make all kinds of claims outthere in the public and that
did nothing to help ourcredibility with FDA.
We had to overcome that.
There had been a bias from FDAsince the 1938.

(17:53):
The NLEA was constantly beingchallenged.
The Proxmire Amendment went inand saved us for a little while.
The NLEA moratorium allowed usthe time to go back to Congress
and tell them what we reallyneeded for an act to protect
consumer access to dietarysupplements, to allow people to
have the freedom to choose, andI think when I first got

(18:15):
involved, I had no idea thatthese battles had been raging
for as long as they had.
So to find out that thisopportunity for us to protect
and preserve the businesses thatwe had, but, more importantly,
consumers' access to choose whatkind of healthcare they wanted
was fascinating, and so that'swhy I got involved and that's

(18:36):
why we were able to get theretailers and all of our various
fractions of NPA to workclosely to develop this blackout
kit, to get everybody involved.
Even GNC, who couldn't blackout their stores because
corporate laws were verydifferent than independent laws,
were there.
Handing out the information,telling consumers, getting them

(18:57):
involved, faxing and phoning,letter writing all of that.
Today it would be so mucheasier to communicate with
customers.
But every single person gotsomething in the hands of every
consumer that came in that store, and I feel like we did such an
incredible job of uniting allthe different fractions in our
industry.
Jerry Kessler from NaturalHealth Alliance he was amazing.

(19:21):
There were people that didn'tspeak to each other initially.
They all got together behindthis issue.
There was a division betweenthe food and the supplement
industry.
A lot of that got healed,because we sell both components
to wellness, and that's food andnutritional supplements, and if
we can't talk about one thenwe're going to hurt the other.

(19:41):
So there was this amazingcoming together of all the
fractions of our industry and itwas exciting to witness.

Tina Smith (19:48):
Yeah, excuse me.
Yes, and Deborah, I see youraising your hand and I'm
wondering two things.
One is this is these are somephotos that you sent over, so
this is from your store.

And no, that's not.
It's not from my store.
No, this is one of the oneshere at the office, but that is
very similar.

Tina Smith (20:09):
So you did this blackout campaign too, but you
were telling me about doing thisfaxing campaign and I thought
there's going to be a lot ofpeople on this webinar who don't
even know what a fax is.
That is true.
It was a very different way ofgoing about communicating.

Right and you know there's there's still retailers
that I'm in contact with on thedaily that that say you know,
whenever we're ready, we'reready.
We did the faxing and it workedreally well.
Well, I don't think that thatworks as well right now, but I
do know and I want to kind ofcontribute to what Cheryl was
saying.
Kind of contribute to whatCheryl was saying being able to

(20:49):
be a part of this whole campaignmoving forward not only brought
awareness to the industry butit brought out for our business,
the House of Health in Shawnee,oklahoma.
What it did is it broughtawareness for our customers, our
community, that understand thatwe were fighting for their
freedom to be able to purchaseproduct in our store.
And so that's the one thingthat we built that integrity

(21:10):
with our community, and theyunderstood and they were behind
100 percent everything that wedid, and I'm sure all the
retailers that are here with ustoday have experienced that as
well.
There's nothing more thanbuilding integrity with your
customer whenever you need themto be a voice for you on the
Hill or on any kind of matterthat is going to help and affect

(21:30):
your business.

Tina Smith (21:31):
Yeah, and Roy, I see your hand raised.
You were talking about thisearlier.
For sure that you guys gotconsumers involved with this,
writing letters, faxing, comingup on the Hill.
So tell us more.

Roy Upton (21:43):
Well, the interesting thing I wanted to mention is
regarding the faxes.
The faxes were actually one ofthe most successful parts of the
campaign, for the simple reasonthat they were receiving so
many faxes through their machinethat they couldn't do anything
else in their office and thatthey were processing so many

(22:05):
single letters.
So, right now, if we do anemail blast, they're not going
to read a single one.
What they're going to do isthey're going to count the
numbers of how manycommunications they got, but
when they're getting faxes andtheir fax machine is running out
of paper and they need to hiretemps in order to open up the

(22:27):
letters in order to know whetherit's something they need to
respond like a realcongressional request or
something.
That's actually a big part ofwhat made this successful.
We had Congress.
I had Congress people callingme in my district saying, roy,
will you tell these people tostop?
We got the message.

(22:48):
We understand the need.
I'm like, I'm sorry, but thisis like you're taking our
ability, our choice, away.
So I just wanted to say thatabout facts and letters relative
to how we would communicatetoday and whether or not that
would be equally as effective.

Tina Smith (23:09):
Yeah, it's really kind of marketing 101.
You have to be above the noiseand get attention, and sometimes
you have to do that by usingsome of the resources so that
they have to get to the bottomof what's happening exactly.
Peter, I want to go back to youbecause I want to hear more

(23:29):
about other lobbying efforts.
Who did you?

enroll to help make the industry look big.
And maybe who did we have onour side at that time?
Well, we did have, as Roy saidwe had.
Congressman Richardson was onewho was our congressman in Iowa,
who was also a big ally of oursat that time.
I don't remember Tom Harkin, DCand worked for, I believe it

(24:07):
was, an entire year on helpingwith this legislation.
He was incredible, probably oneof the most outstanding people
in our industry to do that, andit was incredible what he did
Amazing, you know.
So anyway, they were allinvolved.
And then again, just toreiterate, you know the letter
writing campaigns that we did,the sort of the shock that would
hit the customers when theyrealized they couldn't purchase

(24:29):
a product and how angry they gotof having their choices, of
being limited, reallyspearheaded a big effort on that
.
And then we had the NationalLobbyist Day, which Cheryl was
also very involved with doingthat.
That was an incredible day.
We were most of us were in ExpoEast at that time, so we were

(24:54):
already in the DC area and weall took an extra day and we
went down on foot all theretailers, down to the halls of
our congressional offices andknocked on doors, and so we went
to like I had my owncongressman, who was a freshman
Republican congressman at thattime, went to his office but
visited all the offices of allthe congresspersons in Georgia,
since that's where I'm from, andtalked to their aides about the

(25:19):
issue.
It was an amazing you knowpersonal lobbying experience
that we had, and so we hadhundreds of retailers, you know,
spanning all over, goingthrough all the office buildings
in Washington DC doing that.
It was an amazing, amazingevent and a really powerful
experience on the workings ofdemocracy.

Tina Smith (25:41):
Yeah, Peter, I love this and everyone's sort of
bringing this up over and overagain.
It was retailers, manufacturers, all the trades people were
coming together, and evenconsumers and obviously and I
want to hear a little bit aboutMel Gibson from someone but, Roy
, I would love to hear from youagain why do you think it

(26:05):
happened so well that the entireindustry came together on this?

Roy Upton (26:10):
I think it's because the threat was very real.
And actually one of the thingsI think that I brought to the
table, which was very effectivethroughout the whole campaign,
was FDA was telling everybody inCongress we're not really doing
that, they're lying, they'reexaggerating, we have no
intention to take these productsoff the market.

(26:32):
But what I did, I took the NLEAregulations and I cut and
pasted every specific sentencewhere they said they were going
to restrict access to vitamin Cor anything over 150% of RDAs,
that herbs are going to beregulated as drugs, that the
amino acids, the orotates, allthese different forms that were

(26:53):
on our shelves, that were publicaccess, were going to disappear
.
And I just line them up, cutand pasted them all at that time
, where you know typing andretyping the Federal Register.
And I walked into Waxman'soffice on this lobbying day that
Peter was talking about, andWaxman's, who is our strongest

(27:14):
opponent, said I had FDA in herelast week.
They said they're not doing anyof this and I'm like, okay,
here's what the Federal Registersays this.
And I'm like, okay, here's whatthe federal register says.
And he read that and his eyesopened and he was visibly
disturbed.
Not that he became a supporterof supplements.

(27:34):
He never did.
But he was upset that FDA outand out lied to them, that
representatives of our federalgovernment out and out
misrepresented what they weredoing.
And here was the language rightin front of him saying
different.
And that to me was one of themost effective things, because

(27:58):
we can stand back and saythey're going to do this to us,
but when we show the words thatthey actually published and
their intent, that's a wholedifferent story.
We have to take it out of ournarrative and we have to put it
in a manner that says look, thisis what they're saying.
I consider that one of the mosteffective things that I brought

(28:21):
to this conversation ofactually pulling out that
language, because the threat wasvery real and unless we had
some legislative fix that thesewere going to, the natural
supplements were going to go bythe wayside in a big way.
So I think that's whatcatalyzed a lot of our fear is

(28:46):
that the threat was very real.

Tina Smith (28:49):
And then, okay, someone tell me the Mel Gibson
story.
Who's got it?
Anyone?

Roy Upton (29:00):
uh roy, you're muted again lauren israel said, knows
the real backstory of how thatcame to be and the the
organizers.
Well, mel gibson's dad inaustralia was known as vitamin
gibson, so they were raised asnatural health advocates and,
through connections andnetworking in Hollywood and and

(29:23):
people that produced videos,somebody got to Mel Gibson and
said hey, can you, can you dothis video for us?
And I think we have a link thatwe could share with people.
But essentially it was you seea SWAT team coming out of an
armored car with rifles, bustinto a house in the middle of
the night or in the earlymorning, dark morning, and they

(29:45):
come into the kitchen and thisguy's leaning over his, you know
, in a cabinet and they gofreeze, freeze, you know, hands
up, hands up, and Mel Gibsonholds up a bottle of vitamin C.
He's like hey guys, it's avitamin C, vitamin C.
He's like, hey guys, it's avitamin C.
And as they put the handcuffson, you know it says, if we

(30:23):
don't act, this can happen.
And then they haul Mel Gibsonaway and he says you know,
vitamin C, like an oranges.
And it was classic and thiswent.
This went viral as much as itcould go viral at the time
discussion of exactly what FDAwas doing and why they were
going to take or why we neededto protect access to the health

(30:46):
care that we wanted.
Whoopi Goldberg, I remember hersaying you know how pissed off
Jewish mothers are going to bethat you're really trying to
take away chicken soup.
Really, you know, becauseremember what they were saying.
Any claim that was forprevention or treatment of
disease was a drug.

(31:06):
It didn't matter if it'schicken soup or broccoli or
garlic.
If you make a diseaseprevention or treatment claim,
it's a drug.
So that was the mindset at thetime and it's still the mindset
now.
But that was the Mel Gibsonvideo.
If you haven't seen it,everybody should watch it.

Tina Smith (31:29):
So we posted the link in the chat for anyone who
wants to grab it, and we'll alsohave it in the show notes.
We're going to have thisavailable as a replay.
But, cheryl, I want to ask you,why do you think it was so easy
for the entire industry to cometogether and some of these
boundaries to be crossed?

Well, first of all, you get to somebody's
freedom to choose and theirpocketbooks.
Those are two huge things.
And I think, secondly, we werepassionate about our industry
and our products.
We were proud of the productsthat were made.
We saw people spending theirmoney out of pocket.
They weren't getting reimbursedby insurance companies.
Retailers have always been agatekeeper.

(32:10):
We've always been the link fromthe manufacturer to the
consumer and all we did was stepinto those boots and arm
ourselves with enoughinformation and the same
consistent message.
When we went to lobby day, weall had packets, we all knew
what we were going to say and wewere schooled and trained and

(32:32):
we were well-versed in what wasgoing to happen.
We were in those lobby days.
We were well-versed on how tohandle consumer questions in
those lobby days, we werewell-versed on how to handle
consumer questions.
I think when FDA has thisinherent bias of our industry
and they claim that we'reunregulated, it just makes
people think twice about really.
Why would people spend thiskind of money to take care of

(32:56):
their health and have thefreedom to choose that?
If FDA, who had the power allalong to take off bad products
and bad players, they could havedone this, but they chose to
make this claim out there.
So this inherent bias just keptbubbling to the surface, and I
think people were tired of it,and so we have been so fortunate
, for three decades, to havelived under Deshaies.

Tina Smith (33:19):
Yeah, Bruce, you have your hand up.

Yeah, and we also had a lot of data, you know, on
the issues with drugs.
People were taking Tylenol evenand stuff, the interactions and
where the supplements that wewere selling herbs etc didn't
have any bad effects on peopleand we were able to show that

(33:44):
and it was really important forthe congressmen, senators, to
see that and hear that from us.

Tina Smith (33:55):
So it sounds like there's this both situation
happening, where you'repromoting the freedom to choose
and that these things are greatfor you, but also, hey, you guys
are allowing things to be soldthat are not even as healthy for
you.
So, roy, you have your hand up.

Roy Upton (34:16):
It was just one more thing.
Go to your question of why itwas successful is that we
literally tied in everybody, sothe entire manufacturing
community, the entire retailercommunity.
But we also had, for example,the National Organization of
Women in California first, andthen the National National
Organization of Women supportingthe legislation.

(34:39):
This became an indigenousrights issue Native Americans,
hispanic people that depend onherbs as their primary form of
healthcare, every naturalhealthcare practitioner Ayurveda
, traditional Chinese medicine,naturopathy, orthomolecular,
nutritionists so we had anAmerican Association of

(35:00):
Chiropractic Care.
We had almost every naturalhealthcare practitioner and user
supporting the need for Dachet.
So it cross-platformed.
It wasn't just for those whocould afford it, it wasn't just
for those who are making moneyin industry or in retail, it is.

(35:20):
This is our right, this is ourhuman right.
And I'll just mention one thingCheryl was able to get a meeting
with Mike Taylor, who was thedeputy director of FDA, and she
went to the organizations andsaid, hey, I just called them, I
just called the secretary, Iset up a meeting and nobody

(35:45):
would touch it.
None of the organizations wouldtouch it.
They're saying Cheryl, don't go.
She calls me, almost in tears,saying, roy, I got this meeting
both with FDA and with Centerfor Science in the Public
Interest.
We're also against this and I'mlike let's go.
And we were able to get ourmessage across that this is not
just the business thing, and Ithink that's to me the most

(36:05):
important thing for us torecognize, because FDA and those
who are opposing dietarysupplements and natural health
care, they think it was justbecause of business.
They think Orin Hatch supportedus just because there were a
lot of herb companies in Utah,which is partly true, but he's

(36:26):
also Mormon and the Mormonsstrongly believe, as did Bill
Richardson's community and LeonPianetta, who is the co-signer
of Deshaies.
He was my representative andeventually became chief of staff
on the Clinton.
These are strong communitiesthat demand and want access to

(36:47):
natural, to alternatives,natural healthcare therapeutics
and not just follow the statusquo.
So that's why it was sosuccessful.
We crossed through virtuallyevery demographic in the country
.

Tina Smith (37:02):
Yeah, what I keep hearing from you guys is we just
tried, we reached out, we tried, we connected, we networked and
we built relationships, which Ithink is a beautiful thing, and
it's another reason to come toSoho so you can create some of
those relationships for yourself.

Cheryl, I saw your hand was raised so I was
going to just dovetail on thatfinancial piece of it, because
consumers were aware not onlytheir freedoms were being
impacted, but if these thingswere labeled as drugs, you
couldn't go and buy vitamin Cover the RDA without going to
your physician.
Now that's a huge increase incost, not counting the
inconvenience.
So it was a really easyconversation to have, as Roy

(37:47):
pointed out with every segment,and people were just learning
that they could.
I mean Michael Taylor and BruceSilverplay that was just no big
deal.
You just call them up, they hadto listen to us, I mean, and
they did, but people were notaware that we could do that.
No big deal.
You just call them up.
They had to listen to us, Imean, and they did, but people
were not aware that we could dothat.
We don't know the power that wehave until we were given the
opportunity to exercise that,and I think that was a huge

(38:09):
lesson for everybody thatparticipated in this.
Our voices do matter and,however we reach people that are
in that position, we have theirear and they are obligated to
listen to us in that position wehave their ear and they are
obligated to listen to us.

Tina Smith (38:22):
Yeah, that's amazing , and I'm just thinking of the
Shea seems scary sometimes whenpeople talk about it.
I hear a lot from retailers andmanufacturers like, oh, it's so
limiting and we have to figureout how to get around the Shea
or stay compliant with it.
Are we being compliant?
And it sounds to me like it wasreally protective whenever you

(38:47):
guys first helped develop thislegislation, and I'd love to
hear more around where you thinkthis is going in the future,
peter, lessons that we'relearning from this.
Will the Shea hold up?
What does that look like forour future?
Uh-oh, peter, I'm sorry you'remuted, so I'm going to there you

(39:15):
go, yeah.

I mean it really in providing a framework
of the way that it works, so itallows us to really keep our eye
on developments in the futureand a way that we can work on
maintaining this.
You know, labeling, health, Iknow, are going to continue to

(39:39):
come up as technologies andthings like that, and
information availability makesit, you know, more challenging.
I mean, we've got AI as oneexample, which I'm still, you
know, in the dark about reallypersonally on that.
So we've got to use it as sortof like set the tracks for us

(40:02):
and keeping an eye on any kindof changes that would be coming
up in the future, and we've gota track record of something that
can do that.
I mean, I do remember in thepast when the manufacturers

(40:22):
first were able to put astructure function claim on a
label, and what a celebrationthat was for us and we actually
had products which hadstatements on them about, you
know, body systems that you knowthey were supporting, and it
was an amazing, amazing thingfor us to have that.
We really felt like we hadreally garnered a whole new
level of education and freedomfor the consumer, garnered a
whole new level of education andfreedom for the consumer.

(40:43):
So it's using that and havingour eyes and ears open.
I mean Daniel Fabricant with theNatural Products Association,
if people aren't familiar with alot of the work that he's done
on the regulation issues and hehas at times been a champion for
coming out and continuing toknow, continuing to protect our
industry when these issues comeup.
We had, we all had, the scare acouple of years ago about

(41:04):
N-acetylcysteine as a productthat you know FDA was looking at
and that was a that was anothersort of big moment coming,
coming at us that we had to.
You know, we were nervous aboutand having to work for to keep
those gates open for us.

Tina Smith (41:22):
Yep, I am a huge fan of NIC and I was very nervous
about that.
Cheryl, you have your hand up.

Well, I think most of us in the retail
industry have a position oftrust in our communities.
We have built thoserelationships by being honest
with our customers, by sellingefficacious products, by
communicating things that weknow to be truthful and
non-misleading.
And we have a little trainingdoll whatever you want to call

(41:49):
it.
She's called Vitamindy and shetells our new staff that's in
the supplement department whatthey can and can't say, based on
Deshae laws, and it's a greattraining tool because it's very
easy to get carried away.
You know, if you or I discoversomething that we love, we're
kind of a convert and we want totell everybody and sometimes we
tell too much and sometimes wecross the line maybe as being

(42:13):
practitioners, when we're not,and that's where you can
alienate the medical side ofyour community.
So, if you are training yourstaff properly, if you are
continuously building that trustwith your consumer, all it does
is make you a better retailerand a better part of your
community, and I think that'spart of what the Deshaies law

(42:34):
allowed us to do and why it'simportant for us to say ever
vigilant.

Tina Smith (42:38):
Yeah, and Debra part of this too.
This has lasted for 30 yearsand there's a reason for that.
So why do you think that itstood for 30 years?
Very well for the industry, andwhat does that look like for
the future?

You know, I think that there has been times when
there's always rocky roads,there's always naysayers that
are out there.
We get bad press all the time,but I think that industry has
stuck together and, as we havedone that, with all the trades
that are out there and all theas Roy spoke to the nutritional
professionals that bind togetherto be one united voice, I think

(43:17):
it helped to develop ourstrength.
Now, we did have an amendment,as you guys know, in 2007 of the
adverse event reporting systemthat did amend DSHEA, and the
reason why we did that isbecause we didn't really have a
whole lot of adverse events thatwent about, and so what we did

(43:38):
was we tried to put our big haton and say this is where we are,
and so it has decreased ordecreased it has not.
It has not caused any majorproblems, but it did give a
reporting system and we give alot of kudos for that to be able
to come forward.
Now, what I do think that mightbe a little bit different.

(44:00):
Moving forward and this is forthe emerging leaders that are
part of this panel discussion isthat the shade does have some
archaic language in there.
I mean, there's the structure,function, claims.
There's so much differentavenues that people can go and
get communication nowadays allof our Facebook and you know,

(44:22):
tiktok and all these differentplatforms that are out there
that is going to have to havesome kind of big lasso that's
going to pull it in, and I thinkMichael McGuffin was the one.
Maybe, roy, you can tell me hewas the one that said that is.
The one thing that probablydoes need to be looked at is the
communication part that we have, because everything was pretty

(44:42):
rigid whenever they wrote thelaw.
We kind of knew where to placethe books that were not going to
be put next to the supplementsthat made any kind of claims.
It just kind of evolved fromthere.
So I think, once you get intothe emerging leader side of this
webinar, they'll be asking thequestions well, what about this

(45:03):
and what about that?
So to me, that's the one thingthat probably will be opened up.

Tina Smith (45:08):
Yeah, perfect, and I think that leads us straight
over to you, amanda.
We do have emerging leadersthat have joined us today from
the industry and they are goingto ask the panelists questions
that they have, and this isanother time.
I'm just going to invite youagain to post up your questions
in the chat so that we can alsoask the panelists questions for

(45:30):
you, and if we run out of time,we will still ask our panelists
these questions and get answersback for you and send them your
way via email.
Post them up on the channelswhere we're going to have this
live stream available for yourreplay.

Amanda Ballard (45:48):
Yeah, thank you, tina, and thank you to all of
you panelists.
This has been just reallyinformative so far and I'm
excited to just continue theconversation with our emerging
leaders.
So I wanted to kick it off withKatie.
So, katie, you're a secondgeneration owner.
Your dad lived through this thepassing of the shade, the

(46:08):
blackout days, all of that.
Did this conversation kind ofstrike up anything that you
wanted to ask of the panel, aswell as any experiences that you
would like to share from yourdad living through that period
of time?

Cady Kuhlman (46:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
When all the veteran panelistswere speaking I was actually
thinking of a lot of storiesthat my dad had told me over my
childhood and over my youth.
I was actually four years oldwhen Deshaies passed and I don't
have a ton of memories frombeing four but I honestly think
I can remember the locationwhere our store was which is not

(46:42):
the location now but I rememberthat a yellow notepad and my
dad was constantly gettingeverybody to sign and we were
just burning through yellownotepads because we were just on
fire to get that sent in thefax over to legislature.
And you know he still speaks sofondly to this day of Deshaies
and what it's done for ourindustry and so it's so cool

(47:04):
that something has lasted us 30years.
He said at the time as well,our business was a good business
but it wasn't as big as it wasnow.
So he pulled like all of hismoney together to buy the Mel
Gibson commercial that we werespeaking about, to put it on all
of our local TV stations, andthat was about all the profits
for like six months of time thathe had coming in from the store

(47:25):
.
So he got that all around thelocal Chattanooga area and we
were watching that actuallycommercial the other day
together and just kind oftalking about the fond memories,
because now we're here and soI'm able to take over the store
one day and continue on thisleadership and I truly believe a
lot of that is due to theDeshaies Act, absolutely.

Awesome.
Thank you, katie.
Brian, I know you had aquestion for the panel about the
state of the industry.
I'll turn it over to you.
Thank you, hi.
Yes, you're muted now, Brian.

Brian Mosser (48:01):
Hi, no, I first want to thank all of the veteran
panelists because you know, wewouldn't be running the stores
that we're running and wewouldn't be able to do what
we're doing without all the workyou guys did.
So hats off to you.
But I did have a question.
I guess more for Roy.
I guess more for Roy.
You know we're talking aboutDeshaies today, but you know
where we are at currently withour industry, with politics, the

(48:24):
way they are, with the state ofonline sales.
What do you think?

Roy Upton (48:35):
something that's around the corner that retailers
and a younger generation shouldbe concerned about.
Going forward, I think ourgreatest deficiency has been
that we've never been able tochange the public perspective.
And in the early 2000s ajournalist named Anna Tufeksis
wrote a Time Magazine coverpiece on the power of

(48:56):
nutritional supplements and shewent into writing that article
from a completely negativeperspective that this is snake
oil, old wives, teals andquackery, because that was her
perception and once she, becauseshe was a journalist, she went
to true nutrition experts atTufts, at California, Berkeley,

(49:19):
different universities, talkingto real experts in nutrition and
she completely changed andcreated one of the most positive
articles ever written on thepotential benefits of
supplements.
But what she told us we have totake to heart.
She said in the eyes of themedia, journalists, that the

(49:42):
health food industry'sreputation was only one, rung up
from the tobacco industry, andthat's horrible and that's
predominantly because of themajority of conventional medical
practitioners that continue torepeat the mantra that we're
unregulated, that they'repotentially unsafe, that their

(50:04):
efficacy is not proven, and thismantra has existed for longer
than Deshaies has existed and weas an industry today have not
changed that narrative that muchand I believe that's the
greatest challenge for theyounger generation.
We have to tell our story.

(50:24):
We have to tell people theexperiences that we have.
Think about it.
If you look at almost everysurvey of a natural products
user, whether it's a health foodconsumer, a retail consumer or
whether it's a patient of anatural health practitioner

(50:45):
their demographics they'redescribed as being highly
educated, self-motivated inhealthcare and they have a high
level of satisfaction with thesupplements and with the natural
care they're given throughpractitioners.
So how can we have thisnarrative, this true narrative
that we know because we'reactually interfacing with these

(51:08):
people, and then have this othernarrative in the media?
So I think that's the emergingleaders challenge Tell the story
.
Find a way to tell the storythat gets that truth out.

I love that.
I know, Ryan, you have yourhand up.
I know you're a big advocate ofstorytelling, so I'm interested
to hear your thoughts on that.

Ryan Sensenbrenner (51:33):
Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely.
And again, you know, thank youto the veteran.
You know team members, you know, on this call, and again, thank
you to the veteran team memberson this call.
Like Katie, I grew up in thisindustry but I was six when
Deshaies was first put intoaction.
But my youth was actuallyrunning around enzymatic therapy

(51:53):
in the mid-90s.
My dad led the marketing teamthere and you know he tells the
story recently of going to hisdoctor and his doctor was
recommending CoQ10 to him and hethought that was the most
amazing thing because he playeda role with Dr Mike Murray of
helping to make CoQ10 mainstream, you know, under Enzymatic and,
of course, other brands at thattime.

(52:15):
So I think the industry has madeprogress at that time.
So I think the industry hasmade progress.
But what I also think, as youalluded to, amanda, you know,
storytelling is my world and sooften when I talk to independent
retailers, they have a lot ofbeliefs, they have a lot of
passions, they have a lot ofvalues.
I think we've heard some ofthat today, but you know we

(52:38):
don't always get that out toconsumers and I'd be curious of
the panelists.
You know truly, truly, you knowwhat was the consumer response
within the store and the day today, you know, during this time,
and how do you think that wouldbe different today, you know?
Will consumers interface withthe store in a different way

(53:01):
than they did back then?

Bruce, what do you have to say about that?

You know, back then it was really easy because
customers did not have theability to buy online and so
they really listened to.
What we had to say is, likeCheryl was saying you know the
trusted value of being partnerswith.
You know your store.
We had that in six locationsand you know customers really

(53:30):
were concerned.
Today I think it'd be a littledifferent, because there's so
many avenues and people are somistrusting of everything.
To get them to maybe do asbroad a letter writing or type

(53:51):
program that we did in the 1990s, it would be concerning to me.

Cheryl.

Well, I think that education, which was the
cornerstone to all of ourbusinesses, was certainly the
cornerstone to the passage ofDeshaies, is still our
cornerstone today, and soeducating consumers oftentimes
will have customers come in andthey're talking about the
products they've bought invarious places, including online
, et cetera, and if they're nottalking tit for tat the same

(54:23):
items that we carry we have anopportunity to talk about maybe
why that particular productdidn't work and talk about
efficacy of products that weknow and manufacturing practices
of companies that we'refamiliar with, and I think being
able to call out the badplayers, then I think that's
still an important mission thatwe need today.

(54:45):
When customers ask us questionswe're very honest about we don't
carry this because and I thinkthat that is a respectful answer
and it might generate somebonding with that customer and
so when we change them toanother product and it works for
them, you get that satisfaction.
But I think people arereluctant to call out bad

(55:06):
players in our industry and wehad a lot of them back then.
We had people that were makingjust terrible claims and they
had horrible ingredients andwe've seen ingredients over time
spiked with poor things andpeople aren't aware of that.
And because the Internet andonline sales and home sales have
skyrocketed, people have a opendialogue with misinformation

(55:28):
now and we have an opportunityto correct some of that
misinformation.
I think that's still reallyimportant important?

Yeah, absolutely , and I think something that
I've heard multiple times inthis webinar has been having the
trust of your customer and howall of this created more trust
with your customer.
So I think when you have that,you can much more easily call
out those bad actors, becauseyour customers will listen to
you.
Shifting gears a little bitback into legislation, I know

(56:01):
historically we had senatorslike Orrin Hatch that were
industry champions.
We had kind of talked about hima little bit with the why
behind that.
But, roy, I wanted to ask youif you have any knowledge of any
industry champions we have inCongress today, or or anybody
that's, you know, more moreactively opposed to us, and kind

(56:24):
of just fill fill in theaudience of who we have on our
side.

Roy Upton (56:30):
I think there are a number of people.
Early on after Deshaies, acongressional dietary supplement
caucus was formed and it's beenmore or less active throughout
the decades since the passage ofDeshaies.
But there was a recentinitiative to re-energize that
Dietary Supplement Caucus inJanuary of 2024.

(56:52):
So the caucus consists of what?
15 to 20 senators and 30 to 40congresspeople and we can
provide a list of who thosepeople are in those specific
states and if you know of, forexample, of other
representatives that should beon that list.
That would be an initiative forpeople to go after those people

(57:15):
and say, hey, can you become apart of this dietary supplement
caucus?
That would be the first thing.
The second thing would be howdo we keep the energy of that
dietary supplement caucus going?
Should there be quarterlymeetings, monthly meetings,
monthly communications?
A new study comes out on thebenefits of a supplement, an

(57:36):
herb or nutritional supplement.
We need to have some mechanismthat feeds that information to
the Dietary Supplement Caucus.
Does a critical review makesure that it's not a lousy study
, for example, so that we keepthe energy and the momentum in
that Dietary Supplement Caucusgoing, or that we keep them

(57:57):
educated about our issues isgoing, or that we keep them
educated about our issues.
And again, I think that's beenone of our failures as an
industry.
We tend to be reactive.
This is going to happen to us.
Therefore, we have to dosomething, but very seldom,
other than in the way we dealwith our customers.
We're not proactive.
And again, I would say that'san emerging leader, younger

(58:20):
generation, you got to figureout how do we develop these
communication mechanisms bywhich we build our base of
consumer advocates andcongressional advocates.

So, cheryl, I'll turn it over to you for a
second.
What do you think makes astrong industry advocate, and
what advice would you give toour attendees today for engaging
with their legislators, towhether they are current
champions of our industry, ifthey're a little bit more
indifferent, or even if they'reopposed?

just from all of your experience over the years,
Well, I think the number onething is the success story.
With a dietary supplement,they've either had their own
personal experience or someonein their family changed their
lifestyle, incorporatedsomething that helped them out.
We do see practitioners anddoctors today saying, oh, that's
okay to take it or yeah, youmight try.

(59:15):
We didn't see that 30 years ago.
It was very rare.
So I think those successstories create the advocates.
Also, all of the naturalhealers that are out there.
There's a million differentmodalities.
Those people have had successwith their clients.
Those are the people that havethe stories, that can reach out
and tell those stories.
So I think that's how youidentify them when you are

(59:36):
talking to somebody and you findout, oh, that really worked for
you.

Would you like to be a consumer advocate for us
?
Just keep them in mind, awesome, okay.
So switching gears a little bitto more of the manufacturing
side of things.
We have Ryan with us and, as amanufacturer and as a marketer
in particular, you're dealing alot with the regulatory side of
how, what you can say on a, on apackage, and what you cannot

(01:00:05):
say.
Could you just kind of fill usin on what we need to be aware
of, to what, what kind ofregulations there are, what is,
what is it to substantiate yourclaims, and kind of just fill us
in on all the details there?

Ryan Sensenbrenner (01:00:21):
Yeah.
So my role at Enzymedica isreally to come up with what we
can't say, and then I work withour regulatory team to figure
out how we do say it right.
But I've spent a lot of timemarketing in the world of Dachet
.
I've been with Enzymedica forover 13 years now in marketing.
I've been with Enzymedica forover 13 years now in marketing

(01:00:45):
and I think, first of all, we'rereally blessed in the United
States because I can tell youthere's other parts of the world
where I can say far less aboutsupplements.
I'm very thankful for theguidelines that Deshaies allows
us, but I think you know,without getting into the nuts
and bolts of exactly how yousubstantiate, I think you know,
without getting into the nutsand bolts of exactly how you
substantiate and what thestandards of substantiation will
be.
What I will say is it'sbecoming more important than

(01:01:05):
ever.
Someone earlier mentioned therole of influencers and TikTok
and all of these things, asbrands are bringing them on
board.
They are agents of your company, right?
They are, you know, qualifiedunder rules of both Touché as
well as FTC for sponsored posts.
You know, and there was evensome new rules that just came

(01:01:28):
out over the last couple ofweeks regarding customer
testimonials, and if you'reposting testimonials on your
stores, social media, forexample, you've got to
acknowledge that there was abusiness relationship there, so
on and so forth.
So I think you know again, Icould do a whole talk on
substantiation, but theknowledge here is that you've

(01:01:49):
really got to be careful.
And it's FDA, it's FTC and thenit's also, you know, local
issues, state level, attorneygenerals, community rules.
I saw in the comments about CBD, for example, some things there
.
You know, we talked to a lot ofstores across the country that
were having local lawenforcement come take CBD off

(01:02:12):
shelf.
So you got to be smart about it.

Amanda Ballard (01:02:16):
Yeah, what are some tools that we have at our
disposal?
You know, obviously a lotchanged in 30 years from a
technology standpoint and Idon't think that we can just get
away with oh, we'll just putthat book over here, away from
the product anymore.
We don't talk like that anymore.
So what are some of the toolsout there that retailers can use

(01:02:38):
, manufacturers can use to kindof help them stay compliant with
what they're saying?

Yeah, I mean you're still going to have
in-store the old school thirdparty literature and that
beautiful exemption around that,and anyone who's worked with
Hoppy in the industry will knowwell the role of books and third
party literature, how that canhelp support your sales.
But there are some modern toolsas well.

(01:03:03):
First of all, stay in the know.
I'll never forget my first weekat Enzymedica.
I was joined at the company byanother industry veteran, scott
Cloud, who gave me a list ofLinkedIn groups to join, and
even back then I joined many ofthose to stay in the know, and
they were the trade associationsand media groups.

(01:03:25):
So I think you've got to followthose things.
There's also some reallyphenomenal experts out there,
one that I like to follow.
His name is Asa Waldstein.
Asa has created an AI-based appcalled Apex Compliance which
has a low-cost monthlysubscription.
It's definitely in the realm ofa typical health food store

(01:03:48):
budget where you can actuallyrun your content and your posts
through it and it looks forflagged at-risk terms and it
gives you suggestions on how toreword things.
At-risk terms and it gives yousuggestions on how to reword
things.
So APEX compliance is great,and also tools like ChatGPT are

(01:04:08):
evolving.
You can put content into thereand you can ask ChatGPT hey,
please review this against stateand federal regulations.
I warn you, it's not perfect,but all of these are tools that
are out there that can help yoube successful.

Roy, you have something to add to this.

Roy Upton (01:04:21):
Yeah, I think it's important for us to remember
that one of the provisions ofDSHEA Ryan touched on it was
that it allows for thedissemination at point of
purchase of third-partyindependent data.
So meaning that if somebody'sasking about vitamin E, you can
give them a JAMA New EnglandJournal of Medicine article, a
research article that saysvitamin E may be beneficial for

(01:04:44):
the treatment or prevention ofcardiovascular disease.
See a doctor.
So that was allowedspecifically under D'Shea, which
prior to D'Shea that wasprohibited.
It was considered an extensionof marketing.
So that's extremely important.
The second thing that'simportant and it's a little bit
of a can of worms andcontroversial and not clear cut

(01:05:05):
is the fact that theConstitution does have this
thing that's called freedom ofspeech, freedom of press.
Now, the key is that the pressand the speech has to be
truthful and not misleading.
But there's case history onboth sides supporting free
speech with regards to thebenefits of supplements, even to

(01:05:29):
the point of being able to saygreen tea has a preventative
effect against cancer, whichbecame a qualified health claim
under NLEA, which became aqualified health claim under
NLEA.
And so we have to pay attentionthat Dachet was predominantly a
labeling and a marketing law,but we also have to remember

(01:05:49):
especially as retails, consumers, health professionals that we
also have this other thingcalled the Constitution of the
United States states and we justhave to work within the
parameters and have integrity onhow we present information.
Again, as ryan was saying, bein the know, don't promise what
you can't promise.

(01:06:09):
Don't exaggerate the benefitsjust to sell a product.
Be really know the haveintegrity with the information
that you're putting out.

And just one further quick thought on that
too, and you know there was agreat, great comment in from
Mitch on the chat.
I won't address the full comment, but you know, as you know, any
government agency, you know youcan debate their level of
funding if it's proper or not.
But what I will say istechnology is going to play a

(01:06:42):
greater role of enforcement.
It already is, now and in thefuture.
And so when you look at theseorganizations, or again your
attorney generals, or these lawfirms and things that are out
there, they're going to useautomated tools that are
scraping the internet, lookingfor keywords that are the most
problematic things.

(01:07:04):
Now that isn't a you know,license to kill or license to
cheat, to say what you want andnot use those keywords.
But again, just be aware, asequally as technology can help
us ensure that we are compliant,can help us ensure that we are
compliant, it can also be usedagainst us to identify, you know
, areas of, you know where maybea organization or a store is

(01:07:27):
overreaching its messaging, beit on your own website or social
media.
You've got to be smart aboutthat.

Yeah, and that brings me to my next question.
Katie, I know your storecreates a lot of online content
whether it's social media, yourwebsite, blogs and so on.

Cady Kuhlman (01:07:48):
What are some things that you and your staff
are mindful of when you'recreating that content supporting
healthy levels of?
We're very mindful, obviously,to not be treating or diagnosing
.
We don't want to say that thisis the cure for what they're
looking for, but I do believethat you can train your staff
for that type of language thatthen the consumer can very

(01:08:11):
clearly understand what they'reasking for, that we are giving
them a remedy for that.
It's just doing that politedance around the words.
And so you know I was thinkingthere's some brands that just do
it so wonderful.
One of them is Life Seasons,when they actually have on the
side each ingredient and howit's supporting the body.
That's been a wonderful tool formy floor staff, as they're

(01:08:34):
learning more and more aboutnatural health, has been to
point to what's on the bottle ifit explains it in a really nice
way, which they do a great jobVital Planet, you know there's
many other wonderful independentsupporting brands in our
industry that do that type ofthing.
But you know, if you turn thatbottle around and it says
nourishing the circulatorysystem, it's helping to moderate

(01:08:56):
the effects of stress, thosekind of generalized words are
where we go when it comes to oursocial media, and that's been
very effective for us.
And then when we're writingblogs which we do write a lot of
blogs.
That has very much helped ourtraffic to our website and our
SEO for us to be more searchableon Google.

(01:09:16):
For us to be more searchable onGoogle when we write blogs, we
try to refer to a study orsomething that PubMed said, or
something that the nutrientcould be pointed back to, what
the study said about thatnutrient.
So instead of just tying in abrand, tying in you know, an
exact formula and speaking aboutexactly what that formula does.
We're kind of going nutrient oringredient based and then

(01:09:39):
speaking in the ways that wouldbe Dachet compliant, using
PubMed studies.
So it's a little bit moreeducation based on those blogs
where a consumer on our socialmedia is probably not looking
for ads in depth and they'reable to understand our language.

As I said, with the maintaining optimal health
and promoting healthy levels up,so thank you, and I'd actually
like to get some feedback fromPeter, as well as from Cheryl,
about how you trained your staff, since you know you guys lived
it firsthand.
Any tips that you would givefor how to talk about this to

(01:10:18):
your staff?
Peter, I'll start with you.

Peter Broadhead (01:10:23):
Yeah, well, we conducted regular trainings on
the aisle, of course, withupdating information, and I
would use other sources ofinformation sometimes to keep
people up on the newestinformation.
Nutri-ingredients is a greatwebsite, which a lot of
manufacturers do, but whatthey'll do is they'll provide

(01:10:44):
studies that are coming out thatare short, concise and easy to
read so you can get a lot of thenewest information.
I still use those and send themto people in the vitamin.
On that.
I use Mark Blumenthal quite abit from the Herbalgram and his
herb clips because he's got alot of the newest studies and

(01:11:05):
you can read them and they comeout on a biweekly basis, so do
that.
I use a lot of audio trainingstoo.
There's so many good highcaliber podcasts out with with
uh you know, top functionalmedicine people on certain
topics and people can get thestaff can get a deeper

(01:11:26):
understanding of of material touse as long, and also, you know,
with current uh literaturethat's out from books and such
like that.
And then then, of course, infrahad some great training
programs that we used and thatwas some really important, very
valuable tools, because thosehave all been fully vetted and

(01:11:50):
their whole training modules andeducating the staff are
excellent and there's a wholehuge library there that can be
accessed.

Right Cheryl and then Roy.

Cheryl Hughes (01:12:01):
Well, I underscore everything that you
said, peter, and I would add oneother thing.
The industry is not the smalllittle cottage industry that we
all started out in and we kneweverybody, but that doesn't mean
that we can't know theimportant players and the
companies that we are selling onour shelves.
The companies that we areselling on our shelves, so
establishing a relationship,calling them up, asking and
talking to their departments,getting that feedback for the

(01:12:22):
consumer while they're standingthere.
The consumer has a question youcan answer, pick up the phone,
make the phone call, find out,because that knowledge that you
get for that one customer can gothroughout the entire vitamin
department and answer otherpeople's questions coming
forward.
So I still think that's avaluable resource, in addition
to all the things that youmentioned, peter.
And, as I said, we use atraining tool called Vitamindi

(01:12:43):
and I'll just share that later.

Roy Upton (01:12:46):
Yeah, and I just want to mention that FDA actually
provided a guidance document onhow to develop structure and
function claims and how youdifferentiate those from disease
prevention and treatment claims.
So that's right from FDA.
I don't know if it's stillavailable on their website, but
we could find a link foreverybody and provide that.
But the other thing I wanted tomention is that FDA actually

(01:13:10):
did a survey a number of yearsago as to what kind of language
consumers prefer, and they weredifferentiating between drug
language ie this is proven to besafe and effective for you know
whatever and the second wasqualified health claims, which
is like green tea may, in somecases, in conjunction with the

(01:13:34):
low fat, high fiber you know lowsodium diet and you turn five
times around under a full moonmay, in some cases, prevent
cancer.
People did not like either thedrug claims or the qualified
health claims.
They preferred structure andfunction claims because this may

(01:13:54):
support healthy sleep.
It's in reality, none of us canever tell somebody what is going
to work best for them for theirparticular condition.
A medical doctor, if they tellyou that is lying.
A nutritionist, an herbalist ifthey tell you that they're
lying or they're exaggerating,all we can say is that, in our

(01:14:19):
experiences, this is the best wecould do to support healthy
physiology.
Try to promote homeostasis,provide you with what your body
needs in order to have a betterstate of health.
And if we're telling anybody,we're curing cancer and heart
disease again, whether you're amedical doctor, acupuncturist or

(01:14:41):
retailer, it's just not true.
We can't say that.
So structure and functionclaims were actually preferred
by consumers, and I think thatit's actually a really good
mechanism for putting ourinformation out there in an

(01:15:01):
integrous way.

I just wanted to add to that too.
I think everything you justsaid I would look at, as a store
owner, as an opportunity.
I was talking to a relativelynew owner out of Texas at Soho
Health Fest, which I'll plugthat event, by the way, too, if
you haven't been down to thatshow.
It is phenomenal what the Sempateam does there.

(01:15:27):
But the store owner, he's onlyowned the store for a couple of
years now.
He was a real estate agent, buthe announced to us.
He said a know, a couple times amonth I become a pharmaceutical
drug rep.
And we said what do you mean?
And he said well, what he doesis he takes at least a day or
two every month and he goes toevery single doctor's office and

(01:15:50):
pharmacy in his community,almost like a drug rep, and he
brings a little basket ofsupplements and he brings third
party literature and informationand he gives it to those
practitioners and he builds adialogue.
Now, not everyone is receptiveto that right, but in his
community he's now buildingrelationships with those medical
experts that create a healthyecosystem.

(01:16:13):
Between that and everycommunity is different right who
is the most trusted?
It may be a doctor, it may be apharmacist.
It may be a holisticpractitioner.
Take the opportunity where youknow.
Those individuals can be youradvocates too when it comes to
these kind of claims.

And Katie, I know that your store does that
really well.
I'd love to hear your insight.

Cady Kuhlman (01:16:38):
Yeah, so thank you , ryan, for bringing that point
up.
So that's something that'sreally big within our business
is trying to partner with otherpeople that may not be as
like-minded as us.
So we go out into the community.
We actually have two of ouremployees One is our
nutritionist and then one is ourhealth expert.
That works the floor, but theygo around and we have a list.

(01:16:58):
A health expert that works thefloor, but they go around and we
have a list.
And every probably every month,we try to go to five or six new
places that either have amedical doctor, a med, spa,
bioidentical hormone clinics,orthopedic office, something,
and try to just start arelationship.
Sometimes that's met withthey're not interested.
Sometimes that fosters arelationship over time.

(01:17:19):
But we do bring a little basketand we try to bring literature
that supports their specificindustry.
So you know, for orthopedicsurgeons generally the person
needs to lose a little bit ofweight before they can have the
surgery.
So we may bring in things aboutjoint health or assisting in a
diet protocol that we can helpthem with.
For the eye doctor we go to, wetake eye supplements in and

(01:17:42):
some literature and research onwhat the supplements can do.
So that's been a big, I think,bridge between us and the
medical world here in ourcommunity and, like I said, it
doesn't always work, but I thinkit's worth a try.
So Awesome.

So one more question from Brian before
before we head into q a from theaudience.

Brian Mosser (01:18:09):
Yes, I actually was kind of asking the question
of you know, we're talking abouthow we all came together for
Deshaies back in the day, but,like this is also issues that
we're dealing with, or wantingto protect our rights to be able
to buy and sell supplementsgoing into the future, which is,
you know, how can retailersreally be able to educate their
communities about how, on adaily basis, they could be

(01:18:37):
protecting their rights goinginto the future of being able to
buy or sell supplements?

Debra Short (01:18:42):
I think you have to be.
I think you have to be truthfuland you have to and the source
that you get your informationfrom has to be a very trusted
source of how you're wanting toconvey the message that you're
going to do.
You've already developed arelationship with your customers
over the years and so theytrust you, so you've got that
kind of trust.

(01:19:02):
But the more that you educateyour staff, that you educate
yourself on how there are newproducts in industry and how
they work specifically, I thinkthat's probably one of the best
things.
Now, of course, I'm going toplug Soho Expo, because we have
great speakers that are going tobe there that are going to talk
about product and they're goingto talk about advocacy.

(01:19:25):
As a matter of fact, on Fridaywe're going to have a great
leader in the industry who'sgoing to be talking about
advocacy on HSAs and FSAs andwhere that they're understanding
what it is that is legally,that they can say.

(01:19:55):
And two, that is going to betruthful and non-misleading.
The trade magazines that we haveout there Vitamin Retailer,
whole Foods Magazine, taste forLife Magazine those are all
great education tools we alsohave on our SEMPA website.
If you're a SEMPA member, youcan go on the back end of our
website in to pay them to sitthere and listen to something

(01:20:32):
that's going to educate them.
I think that is something thatwe lose sight of sometimes is
that if we can't afford to bringthem to a trade show to do that
, we can afford to let them sitthere while we go and work out
on the floor and they can listento what we got to listen to at
the trade show event that we doOur president, renee Southard.

(01:20:55):
She said I can take all thenotes that I can, but I've got
to bring this back to my staffand that's just a great tool for
that.
So, brian, I hope I answeredyour question the way you wanted
to.
I think the big thing is thateducation is key to staying
relevant in this industry.
Networking and being a part ofthis industry and connecting

(01:21:21):
with the people that we haveopportunity to talk to today
just kind of enhances that.
So I hope that answered yourquestion, brian.

Brian Mosser (01:21:26):
Yeah, I mean you definitely answered that part of
my question.
I just wanted to piggyback offwhat you said as a retailer who
pays my employees to doeducation, regardless what it is
.
I mean you definitely answeredthat part of my question.
I just wanted to piggyback offwhat you said as a retailer who
pays my employees to doeducation, regardless what it is
.
I always try to deal withcompanies and brands that don't
just support independent storesbut that actually have education
and science backing theproducts, and I can't say enough
how helpful it is to have thatavailable and make sure your

(01:21:49):
staff are doing it.
And again, we pay our staff.
I think that goes a long wayfor staff members and retailers.

Great.
Well, thank you so much,emerging Leaders, for your
participation.
I'm going to pass it back overto Tina, because the chat has
been blowing up with yourquestions, so we want to make
sure, in the few minutes that wehave left, that we can answer
as many of those as we can.

Tina Smith (01:22:16):
Yeah, some of these were already answered,
thankfully, and some of them gotanswered a little bit here and
a little bit there, butspecifically from Ted
Constantine and I know Katiesort of spoke to this a little
bit.
But what type of support cansupplement manufacturers offer
to support independent retailers?
Cheryl Bruce, if you guys havesome ideas of what would be
really helpful in your storefrom manufacturers?

Cheryl Hughes (01:22:41):
We do a lot of training, so we have them come
in for a lunch and the employeesare sitting in the break room
with a.
Sometimes it's on TV becauseit's remote, Other times they're
in person.
They're eating lunch, they'regetting trained.
We want that third-partyliterature to go out to our
vitamin staff as well as some ofthe other people that are on
our staff.
We do consumer lectures andpeople are invited to attend

(01:23:05):
that staff as well as theconsumers themselves, and when
the sales reps come in, we wantthat literature.
We want to know what is thestory behind the products and
why are they unique and what'sthe literature and the science
behind them.

Yeah, awesome Peter, it looks like you have your
hand up too.

One of the tools that I've really loved was
Steve Langford, who's anindustry retailer out of
Wisconsin, has a fantasticpodcast and he interviews
industry experts who work witheach of the individual companies
and he's incredibly careful onD'Shea following those

(01:23:49):
guidelines when he's doing theseinterviews, but I found to be
immensely helpful in educatingstaff.
So he'll have people from anumber of country life now you
know Kyalik Garlic, on and onand on.
Just lots of companies withgreat information, so that's a
great resource.

It looks like that's HealthCast Health quest podcast
podcast.

Yeah, right, all right.

There's probably 120 plus episodes on that perfect
library yes, and training wehear that all the time from
retailers, that training.
If you guys could provide moretraining in their stores, both
for their representatives, andalso just have educational
events, because that is a goodattractor for new audiences as

(01:24:37):
well.
So I know they would love tohear that as well.
We'll do one more just becauseof time and then we're going to
wrap this up.
But if you did submit aquestion, don't worry, we will
reach out to you personally andtry to answer your question to
the best of our ability.
But from Erin Reynolds, shewould like to know what was done
and who was involved in helpingovercome the recent NIC issues

(01:25:00):
with the FDA.
Roy, I think you had an answer.

Roy Upton (01:25:04):
Yeah, there's actually.
Again, this was a great example.
I put it into the chat.
This was a great example of howDeshaies did help to protect
access.
A number of manufacturers anddistributors actually held on to
pre-Deshaies catalogs.
Remember that one of theprovisions of Deshaies was that

(01:25:25):
if something was used as asupplement prior to in the
market, as a supplement prior tothe enactment of Deshaies,
october 1994, then it's alegally allowed supplement.
Well, we were able to show thatat least two companies had NAC
as a supplement listed indistributor and manufacturer

(01:25:47):
catalogs prior to Deshaies, andwe made those catalogs available
to the legal and the trade thelegal people in the trades that
were interfacing withcongressional representatives
and regulatory representativeswhat they also.
Though there's also a provisionthat said that if something was

(01:26:08):
used as a drug prior to its useas a supplement, then it was not
a legal supplement ingredient,and that was one of the
challenges about NAC.
But again, the NAC product thatwas actually used as a drug was
an injectable, and the lasttime I knew Peter Broadhead or

(01:26:29):
Cheryl Hughes was not sellinginjectable NAC in their stores.
So again, we were able to makethe case that NAC as a tableted
supplement or a capsule wasavailable prior to Dachet and
therefore as a legal dietarysupplement, and that the drug
provision that would haveotherwise prevented it was only

(01:26:49):
focused on or only relevant toan injectable preparation which
we don't sell.
Perfect example where theframers of Dachet kind of saw
the writing on the wall andwe've been able to use that to
protect access to supplementsstill today.

So what I'm hearing is that if you have something
coming up where the FDA might beregulating against your product
, reach out to Roy and he willfix everything for you.
I'm just kidding, but also I'msure he would make himself
available.
But, debra, that does bring usto the end of this webinar and

(01:27:29):
thank you, panelists, emergingleaders, everyone who attended,
but Deborah, wrap us up.
Like, how do people stayinvolved in webinars like this,
in the ability to network andstay involved in the activism
community for this industry?

Debra Short (01:27:52):
activism community for this industry.
Well, I think that it is.
I got to give some credit hereto Jay Jacobowitz and the Whole
Food June issue of Whole FoodMagazine which kind of inspired
me to try to have a discussionwith you, tina.
To put this webinar together,it's because the title of it was
Deshay 30, where is ourgrassroots army?
And we've got to get it workingtogether.

(01:28:12):
Our voice is bigger and betterwhen we all have one voice
standing together tall next toeach other.
So I think that for the nextfew future years that we move
forward is that we need todecide and we need to work
together.
It is going to be opening adoor.
I, I have to believe I knowthere's a lot Mitch was talking

(01:28:34):
about several different thingsthat industry is is addressing
right now but network with eachother, you know, communicate on
however level.
You can attend your trade shows.
They are there's something thatare there for you and and you
know our companies that that areour exhibitors that come in and
our our speakers and educationopportunities that are there for
you and our companies that areexhibitors that come in and our
speakers and educationopportunities that are out there

(01:28:55):
.
That's where you learn andthat's where you need to be
spending your time and effortsto keep your business moving and
going forward.
I know we're really excitedabout Soho Expo coming up and we
hope that everyone gets to behere Tina, thank you, and Amanda
so much for being a part ofthis and helping us get this

(01:29:15):
message out, and all of thewonderful veterans that we have
and our emerging leaders.
We couldn't have done itwithout you and I'm just so
grateful for all of you to behere, all our attendees.
We will have this.
I think Tina put in the chatthat we will have it available.
We will host it also on ourSoho Expo website.
So if you need to reaccess orto re-listen or share with

(01:29:40):
someone, we appreciate that.
Again, tina, thank you so much.

Thanks to everyone.
Yeah, it was great having youguys and we'll see you next time
.
Okay, bye.

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