January 16, 2025 • 49 mins
Join us as we confront the intricate and often controversial topic of adultery through the lens of biblical teachings. Our guest, Nick, returns to shed light on this age-old issue, emphasizing its relevance both in ancient times and today's society. We dissect Commandment 7 and explore the nuanced debates of Pharisee groups Hallel and Shammai regarding "indecency" in Deuteronomy 24, offering insights into how these historical perspectives can shape our modern understanding of marriage and divorce.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey guys, welcome back to Navigate.
Justin is here.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I am here.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
And we have Nick with us again.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
What's up?
What's up?
Nick, the man, the myth, thelegend, the pastor.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Thanks for coming back to talk about this with us,
buddy.
Yeah, man, looking forward toit.
We took a break because of theholidays and then we recorded
this episode and we had sometechnical faults.
Now we're redoing it for thesecond time, which is always a
good time.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So if you don't, like this episode it's only a
tribute to the original episode.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
You'll never know how good that episode was it was
the greatest episode that weever recorded.
But you're never going to knowthat it doesn't get better than
the episode on adultery.
So yeah, Commandment 7.
Jeez.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Well, we've been getting some work done, man.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, we're almost done.
That's weird.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Well, I'm proud of us today, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thank you, I need to hear that.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
So I know everybody's been waiting with bated breath
to talk about this fun topic,Talk about adultery.
This is like a nightmare topic,though, in our world today,
because inside the church andoutside of the church, I feel
like this has become somethingjust insane.
This has become something justinsane.
Ironically, I think it was alsoa huge topic of contention and
(01:30):
problem in Jesus' day as well,and even before that.
You know one of the some of thebest stories in the Bible.
One of them in particular isI'm trying to think of the one
in Judges Tim, where the guy issleeping with somebody, somebody
he's not supposed to and theguy goes into his tent and just
spears both of them through.
(01:50):
Yeah, what's the name I can'tremember, but listen, things got
epic, all right, it was, it waswild out there, but yeah, so
this, this topic, uh, tim, I'mcurious like how you want to
kick it off you know that's.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
This has probably been difficult, I think, for
both of us on this topic,because we have discussed pieces
of this over the years on thispodcast, yeah, so not trying to
rehash everything back seems alittle difficult.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Well, I guess, in the biblical sense of when God gave
this commandment to Moses forthe people, what was he actually
talking about?
We'll just start there.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Okay.
So the let's say, the placethat gets quoted the most with
regard to this is what we see inLuke 16 and Matthew.
Chapter five is in Deuteronomy,chapter four or 24.
Sorry, deuteronomy, am I right?
24.
24.
Let me pull it up real quick.
(02:45):
I will read it to you and thenmaybe give you some context.
It says when a man takes a wifeand marries her and it happens
that she finds no favor in hiseyes because he has found some
indecency in her Now that wordwe're going to get into as a
point of contention in a minuteand he writes her a certificate
of divorce and puts it in herhand and sends her out from his
(03:06):
house, and she leaves his houseand goes and becomes another
man's wife.
And if later the husband turnsagainst her and writes her a
certificate of divorce and putsit in her hand and sends her out
of the house, or if the latterhusband dies, who took her to be
his wife, then her formerhusband, who sent her away, is
not allowed to take her again tobe his wife, since she has been
defiled.
For that is an Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
So divorce is always the woman's fault, that is it,
Tim, Close down the podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Remember this was just a tribute.
That is the text that is kind ofthe argument point that we see
in Matthew 5 and in Luke 16,when the Pharisees come up and
ask Jesus about divorce.
Okay, they're trying to trapJesus by putting him in the
(04:03):
middle of a contention thatexists in that day and age
between these two groups ofPharisees called the Hallel and
the Shammai, and the Shammaihave this, let's say, more rigid
, solid interpretation of thisverse, which is that indecency
he's finding in her is adulteryshe's sleeping around.
(04:24):
He's finding in her is adulteryshe's sleeping around.
This is why the commandment'sabout putting somebody to death
If you find them in adulterydoing these things.
He's saying that kind ofindecency is what this passage
is referring to, given thecontext of the rest of
Deuteronomic law.
And then you have this groupfrom Berkeley called the Hillel
group you know what I mean fromBerkeley, called the Halal group
(04:49):
.
You know what I mean.
And and their idea is indecencycould be anything.
Maybe you didn't like how shemade your steak and eggs that
morning, which they probablywouldn't eat together, you know.
Anyway, I'm sorry, I'm goingout of my mind and their idea
was basically no, you candivorce a girl for anything,
anything that you want toconsider indecency, and these
two groups were kind of in a warabout what this text was
(05:11):
talking about.
And I would like to take a stepback and say, when we read the
Old Testament law, what we'rereading is case law.
This is not prescribing topeople what they should be doing
.
This is not prescribing topeople what they should be doing
.
This is explaining what'shappening in circumstances and
some things they need to knowabout how not to handle
(05:32):
circumstances that are going tocome up.
The Bible here is notprescribing divorce.
The Bible here is saying whenthese things happen, here's what
I want you to do, kind of likethe Bible is not prescribing
murder, but it is givingscenarios in scripture where
murder happens and some thingsto do and not to do in the event
(05:55):
that those things take place.
It's like the Bible, especiallythe law, is telling you, as
things happen in your societyhere's how I want you to
navigate it.
Not because it's happening insociety, we're telling you
that's happen in your society.
Here's how I want you tonavigate it.
Not because it's happening insociety, we're telling you
that's a good thing, or itshould happen, or this is a
normal thing that you shouldjust allow to go on.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, Just accept it.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yes.
So they're trying to give youprinciples, and let's say
general principles, that youwere to derive from these
stories that it's telling aboutthings that are going to come up
, so that you would navigatethem well and walk through them
in a way that makes sense givencertain circumstances.
But like all men and women,mankind, we want to get into the
(06:34):
details and say, yeah, but whatcan I get away with?
Right?
So they find a word and they'relike well, let's just, let's
talk about that for a minute,because she burnt my eggs last
night.
You know what I mean.
Or or whatever it might be, orin our day and age.
Let's just be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I just don't feel like he listens to me, you know
whatever that, whatever thatmight be between man or woman.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
But but I would say, ultimately, the Bible is not
prescribing divorce.
It's never recommending divorce.
It's never telling people isnot prescribing divorce.
It's never recommending divorce.
It's never telling peopledivorce is a good idea.
It's never telling peopledivorce is something that would
be okay.
It's saying there are sometimes where that is going to be
a reality and going to happen.
And that's what takes us to thatpassage in Matthew 5 and Luke
(07:20):
16 where Jesus is talking aboutwhat things look like or what
was the purpose from thebeginning in general, and his
point was hey, you know and thisis where we get into the
conversation about adultery itseems like Jesus was aligning
himself with the Shammai schooland saying no, adultery is the
only reason that you would beable to divorce somebody, which
(07:44):
is, if somebody has functionallyleft you and has created
covenant with somebody else,it's the same as that person
basically being dead.
And, nick, I'd love for you tojump in, tell me your thoughts
on this, because we've beentalking back and forth and I'm
curious to see.
Would you say that adultery isgrounds for divorce or would you
(08:04):
say it may be grounds but it'snot a reason?
Speaker 3 (08:07):
That's where I would land.
I think Jesus always reaffirmedeverything he did.
He always referred back to thebeginning.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
It was said in the beginning.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
So he always referred to God's perfect design, and I
feel like in today's age, it'slike oh no, I got you, I caught
you looking at porn.
Now you're out of here.
Or I had an emotional film.
I don't want to have commitment, let me get out of here.
I feel like it's a cop-outinstead of a commitment.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah Well, there are some issues here, all right,
okay, so I'll just tell you Iwas listening to this Jewish guy
.
So I'll just tell you, I waslistening to this Jewish guy.
I'm trying to think of Dennis.
Prager big name, okay, big name.
He was saying men don't commitadultery with their heads, they
commit adultery with the otherpart of their body.
(08:53):
And I said there's a sense inwhich he is entirely correct and
there is a sense in which he isentirely wrong.
Yeah, this I mean, if you, thepoint that he was making is that
watching pornography is not bad.
He said it's not sin becauseit's not actually adultery.
And I would say there's a sensein which he's right.
(09:15):
That person is not committingthat kind of, let's say,
full-fledged I'm sleeping withanother woman adultery.
However, it is absolutelyevidence of a corrupt heart that
is walking down a road that youshould not walk, mingling with
things that you should notmingle, I would even say
interacting and let's saysexually interacting with demons
(09:35):
in a way that is not great.
By that I mean it's freakinghorrible, okay, but there is a
difference between, let's say,pornography and adultery, and
sometimes we want to put thosethings in the same category.
All of us would agree there isa difference between being angry
at somebody and murderingsomebody.
(09:56):
But Jesus says to be angry witha brother is to murder them,
and I'm like so do you want meto tell everyone?
They're guilty of murder as well.
Are you guilty of murderbecause you were angry at your
wife or husband for watchingpornography?
Are you now a murderer too?
Is that what you mean?
I don't think that's what youmean.
There is a difference between,by the way, crime and sin.
(10:16):
Sure, and in this scenario,there's a difference between,
let's say, adultery and, letlet's say, lust of the heart.
Yeah, right, and the Biblecondemns both.
Okay, but but I do think it'sworth noting.
Some people today want to sayif somebody is watching
pornography, it's the same asadultery, and I would say, nope,
that's a cop out.
(10:36):
People like to talk aboutemotional affairs, emotional
adultery.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
And I would say what is?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
that you start to allow your heart to fall in love
with somebody or catch feelingsfor somebody, and nothing has
happened, nothing has goneanywhere with it, but you
allowed yourself to go fartherthan you would like to with your
own heart with somebody.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
It's like Jack and Rose at the Titanic at the door
scene, isn't that?
Speaker 1 (11:03):
called dating Jack and Rose at the.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Titanic scene door scene.
Isn't that called dating Jackand Rose at the Titanic scene?
That's what an emotionaladultery looks like.
There you go, Tim.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I don't even know what he's talking about, but I'm
sure it's accurate.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I mean, I would just call that dating right.
So what are you talking about?
But in the context of marriage.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Okay, so with marriage, yeah in my experience
and Justin call me out if I'm Inmy experience women because
they're more emotional.
That's how God made them.
They desire that more, that'smore of a connection, whereas
men might be more physical.
There's issues at home withtheir husbands, so they have
(11:41):
like a co-worker or aquote-unquote friend.
I think it'd be as marquee yousay he's just a friend.
You have that friend but you arepouring into that friend.
You're getting your emotionalfeel, You're getting that
validation and that emotionalconnection with someone other
than your husband From that guyyou're chatting with on
Instagram or Facebook.
Tic-tac.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Tic-tac, face back.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
China's going to stop that soon.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So it's that, so you're talking like work
husbands, work wives, but at anemotional at an emotional level
that they're not connecting withat home.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, so so you are not, um, and then we're getting
into like grounds for divorceand everything else so fast and
really the topic is ultimately,first and foremost, adultery,
which is, hey, you are not, ifyou are in covenant and married,
to go and sleep with someoneelse.
You're not supposed to do that.
(12:37):
You're supposed to sleep withyour husband or your wife, if
you are a man or a woman, andyou're supposed to make sure
that you are laying your lifedown for that person.
Husbands are to provide andprotect their families.
Wives are to submit to theirhusbands and nurture and care
for their families and raise upthe young, and they're to come
(12:58):
together and have offspring.
It's supposed to be awesome.
The whole story of the Bible iskind of this story of this
relationship with God, framed inthe categories of marriage.
It culminates in God restoringhis bride to himself and at the
end of all things, there's thewedding feast of the lamb, as
the bridegroom and the bride arebrought together at the end of
(13:20):
all things.
So the whole picture of theBible is marriage.
It's supposed to be seen assomething that is holy and good
and beautiful and ultimatelythis picture of adultery has
everything to do with our ownrelationship with God, because
God is saying the way that Iview myself and my church is in
(13:41):
the same terms of a husband anda wife, and the way that you
treat your wife and the way thatyou treat your husband is
actually a picture of how you,your relationship with me is,
and I would say it's a hundredpercent accurate.
Um, nobody who is in a greatplace with God is cheating on
their wife.
Nobody who is in a great placewith God is cheating on their
(14:02):
husband.
Yeah, nobody in a great placewith God is watching a bunch of
pornography or or having anemotional affair.
Right, and I'm okay withcalling it that because we're
not calling it adultery, but Ido think affair usually means
adultery.
I don't know, there's a lot oflanguage here.
It's worth noting here that thepicture ultimately because we're
(14:23):
framing everything in thecontext of the Ten Commandments
is, if you love God, if you puthim first, if you understand the
rules of the house with yourown personal relationship with
God, then how that overflows tohow you love your neighbor.
In this case, your spouseshould look the same way, and if
that's out of order, then thisis going to be out of order and
the reason Jesus is saying, theonly reason you guys are in this
(14:45):
fight is because you're totallymissing the point of what I'm
getting at.
People had hard hearts.
He's writing laws for peoplewith hard hearts who are doing
the wrong things, and you'retrying to come up with reasons
to be able to do stuff thatshouldn't be happening in the
first place, because you guysare misinterpreting and
misunderstanding what Godintended for all of you when he
was just giving you things tohelp mitigate some of the damage
(15:06):
that's going to happen becauseof sinful people.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah, you know, what's interesting, too, is in
Mark 10 is where the Phariseestend to.
When the Pharisees come up andthey start questioning it, and
what I really do like Jesusasked him is like what does
Moses command you?
So the word command stands outa lot, because obviously they're
talking about the law, yeah,and then right after that they
the verse four says they saidMoses permitted, yeah, permitted
(15:32):
.
Don't miss that.
After that, the verse 4 saysthey said Moses permitted, yeah,
permitted.
Don't miss that, becauseoftentimes when I talk to people
they're like oh, the Biblegives me permission to do this.
It says that I'm commanded todo it, but it doesn't.
The command's always beenfaithfulness.
Moses permitted.
There's a semantical thingthere that I'd like to pull on
sometime.
Yeah, but I think that'simportant.
I think that's important, Ithink that's true.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I think that's really good.
I think God commandsrighteousness and he allows sin
for a time, and then at somepoint he's wiping it all out and
it's being destroyed.
In the same way, when we thinkabout marriage and we think
about the sanctity of marriageand what that means, I think we
need to think about it indifferent terms and frames, and
(16:12):
we're always looking forloopholes and we're always
trying to be lawyers you knowwhat I mean.
Like come up with reasons forwhy our particular scenario is
different, or anything like that.
I think it's wild.
I did want to bring up briefly,Tim, a passage that I think has
to do with this, that mostpeople don't love to get into,
and that's 1 Corinthians 11.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Head coverings.
Huh, yes, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I think 1 Corinthians 11 has a lot to do with this
kind of situation, and then I'llexplain to you a little bit
about it.
He starts out by saying Paul,be imitators of me, as I also am
of christ.
All right.
So right off the bat you havethis paul is under christ and
(17:00):
imitating christ.
And then here's what he says Iwant you to understand christ is
the head of every man, man isthe head of every woman and god
is the head of every woman andGod is the head of Christ.
Okay, so that passage rightthere, by the way, pisses
everybody off, because the wholething is a hierarchy.
He's saying God, christ, right,or God the Father, christ the
(17:24):
Son, created man and then woman.
That's what it's about, andeveryone's like how dare you Not
the God the Father, christ theSon part, but everything that
came after?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
that right Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Every man who has something on his head while
praying or prophesying disgraceshis head.
Every woman who has her headuncovered while praying or
prophesying disgraces her head,for she is one and the same as
the woman whose head is shaved.
For if a woman does not coverher head, let her also have her
hair cut off, nice.
But if it is a disgrace for awoman to have her hair cut off,
her head shaved, let her coverher head.
(18:00):
For a man ought not to shavehis head covered, since he is
the image and glory of God, butthe woman is the glory of man,
for man does not originate fromwoman, but woman from man.
So I would just like to takethat.
Um, now, let me.
Let me keep going, for indeed,man was not created for the
woman's sake, but the woman forthe man's sake.
Therefore, the woman ought tohave a symbol of authority on
(18:23):
her head because of the angels.
Okay, we can get into more, wecan talk more in this passage,
but he's basically giving ahierarchy.
He's saying this is what it'ssupposed to look like, and if
you are under the authority thatyou're supposed to be under,
then you're not going to end upin rebellion.
So the whole passage here isultimately about submission to
(18:45):
God's created order, then whathe's getting at is the opposite
of that is actually rebellion, Ilove to say.
Today a head covering for awoman was like the equivalent of
dressing modestly right.
So some people would like tobring back head coverings
because their belief is that ahead covering is a great symbol
to people in the church that asa wife I'm under the authority
(19:08):
of my husband, I would say Idon't think most people
understand that that's what itmeans today, so it would kind of
be redundant.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
But not having a wedding ring.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So not having a head coveringin our day and age would be more
like a girl dressing reallyslutty and going and flirting
with a bunch of other guys.
It's saying I'm not.
I'm kind of open for business,I'm I'm I'm not really
respecting my husband, I'm doingmy own thing, I'm a strong
independent woman.
Yeah, whatever, right, it's thatpicture and I would even say
(19:39):
that the idea is, men, you'renot supposed to have this going
on, because you're supposed tobe the one who is actually
connecting with God in thisfashion and to be the covering
for your wife, and that coveringon her head represents that she
is under your covering andyou're protecting and taking
care of her.
A man to wear a head coveringwas like the equivalent of of
(20:00):
him saying I'm the female, I'mthe one that's under her
covering, I'm.
It would be like beingeffeminate in a sense, right?
So a man who's um having hiswife take care of him she makes
all the calls, she does all thethings, yeah it would be like
that would be the equivalent.
It'd be like something is wrong.
What is he doing?
Well, he's not stepping up,he's not being the man that he's
(20:22):
supposed to be, he's notleading, he's not protecting,
he's not providing, he's not acovering.
That's rebellion to god.
And then he throws in thisabstract comment where he says
because of the angels.
Most people are like hmm, yeah,because of the angels.
It's a joke in my house with meand my wife, anytime there's
(20:43):
something weird or random thathappens you know what I mean or
just some abstract thing, she'lljust look at me and will be
like because of the angels,devil made me do this.
It seems like it comes out ofleft field, but if you realize,
this entire passage is abouthierarchy, god's ordained
structure and what's supposed tohappen, and he's communicating
submission to that structureinstead of rebellion.
(21:03):
And then he says rebellion.
Well, what's the last thingthat happened when men and women
and, let's say, divine beings,got out of their normal
structure?
You have Genesis 6.
You have literally the Nephilim.
You have women sleeping withthe sons of God, not men, but
(21:24):
literally all kinds of weirdstuff happened, god knows who
and God knows what.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Thank you too.
The Lord knows what.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
You know what's interesting, man, and might be a
rabbit hole.
We get down later.
But in verse six, when you talkabout to a woman, it's disgrace
when they shave their head.
Isn't there a movement rightnow, now that Trump's in office,
where women are rebellingagainst men and refusing to
sleep with men but also shavingtheir head as an act of
rebellion?
It's totally demonic andspiritual and I don't think we
(21:54):
realize that.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I do think there is a real element to hair, like
females and their hair and likewhy is it, tim, whenever a girl
decides to go feminist, thefirst thing to go is her hair.
You know, I don't know, dowhatever you want with that, but
it's got to be shaved on oneside, or blue, or give herself a
(22:16):
mohawk or something.
But suddenly it becomessomething else entirely.
I don't know.
It's interesting.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Well, doesn't the scripture say it's to her glory.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, god literally like provided a type of covering
.
But what I wanted to get at, tim, god literally like provided a
type of covering.
But what I wanted to get at, tim, is the whole idea of adultery
and the Ten Commandments reallystems from this idea of our love
for God and our taking ourplace with him is happening the
way that it's supposed to, thenthe overflow of that is
something beautiful and good andGod's ordained creation
(22:47):
flourishing.
What happens when we stepoutside of the good thing that
God has given us in marriage andsubmission and perspective, and
how we honor and cover eachother, whether men stepping out
and sleeping with other womenand removing that covering from
their spouse, or women steppingout from underneath the covering
of their husband and sleepingwith somebody else what you're
doing is what the demons did.
(23:09):
What you're doing is doing whatSatan does, which is step
outside of God's ordainedpicture for how things are
supposed to function.
And if you consider that sex issupposed to be this picture of
oneness right, two people comingtogether and the Trinity is
supposed to be this picture ofoneness, two things being one or
(23:32):
three things being one in it,sorry, in a profound mystery.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
It was cursed.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
In a profound mystery .
We're like man.
We don't totally understand it,but that is crazy and beautiful
and wonderful.
Then, every time Satan assaultssex in marriage, in this
beautiful picture of what it'ssupposed to be, he's actually
assaulting the very image of Goditself.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Thumbing his nose at him.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, and so when we look at this passage in 1
Corinthians 11, I think it'sjust a great reminder that
adultery is ultimately a demonicfinger in the face of the image
of God.
Yes, because the one thing thatis supposed to show oneness and
beauty and is supposed to be apicture of the culmination of
how God started and ends allthings.
(24:14):
He starts with the marriage,adam and Eve.
He ends with the marriage, thebride and the bridegroom, and in
this beautiful picture he'sredeeming all things to himself.
But what Satan loves to do isprofane that thing all along the
way.
And what's sad is that, evenstarting this podcast, we get
into all the details about whenpeople are asking when it's okay
(24:35):
to profane the identity of Godthrough their marriage bed.
When is it okay to step away andnot fight for this anymore and
not care about it?
When is it okay to destroy thison whatever grounds?
I have and it's awful, it'slike you don't realize that God
calls it an abomination and sayshe hates it because it's a
personal slander to his owngoodness and identity.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yep, so is adultery in a marriage the only grounds
to actually divorce?
Great question.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Look, in my opinion, divorce is when two people are
not, let's say, sleepingtogether, they're not living in
the covenant and, let's say,structure that God has ordained
Husbands loving their wivesbeing a provision of protection,
wives submitting to theirhusbands being a helper and a
(25:31):
nurturer.
When that stops happening, theystop coming together in oneness
and living opposite of eachother instead of together.
What you're essentially doingis tearing your souls apart.
You are functionally divorcedwhen you start living divorced.
You are officially divorcedwhen you sign papers that say
you're divorced.
You are officially divorcedwhen you sign papers that say
(25:51):
you're divorced.
My good friend Rob Kelly, wetalk about this pretty
frequently, but I think a lot ofpeople are divorced way before
they're divorced.
A piece of paper doesn't makeyou married.
It's you living and walking outthe covenant that you made to
God about how you would love,treat, be with care, for there's
a lot of men who are haven'tslept with their spouse spouse,
(26:15):
I'm making air quotes for those.
You can't see the.
You know they can't.
No, they're not doing that.
They live in the basement.
She lives upstairs, but theystay together for the kids.
What does that mean?
We're co-parenting, but I'm notmarried to her.
That's what that means.
Well, no, no, no, we're notdivorced, we're just not
sleeping together.
Okay, no, you're divorced, youjust don't have a piece of paper
(26:37):
from the government that'ssaying divorce.
I will say this divorce isirrevocably associated with the
civil magistrate because it hasto do with property and children
and livelihood, which isdirectly associated with what
the civil magistrate is supposedto oversee and help with right.
So it's two people's propertycoming together and becoming one
(26:58):
piece of property.
Now tax brackets and all thatstuff is the same Even in
biblical times.
Obviously it was property, itwas livelihood.
The government is supposed tooversee and try to help in those
circumstances.
Why in deuteronomic law it'ssaying if these things happen,
here's some of the stuff thatyou might need to do as a civil
magistrate to navigate this.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Well, not a recommendation of what god is
saying is supposed to happenyeah, that's what I like about
deuteronomy 24, because whenwe're studying it is during that
time frame.
Women could not work.
It was a cultural aspect wherethey could not work.
So if a woman did not have acertificate of divorce, in this
case there's no way to providefor her, which is the whole
(27:40):
point of.
You need this documentation inorder to be remarried so that
another man can take care of youand provide for you.
Otherwise, her only option isprostitution and we know what
the punishment for that was.
It was going to be death anddestruction.
So the only way and I actuallysaw that as an act of grace if
I'm fully transparent, like evenin the midst of the hardest
(28:02):
thing, god's heart for a womanright there is.
I know that you can't providefor yourself.
Moses allowed that I'm takingcare of you because it's a way
for another man to say, hey, ifI do this, I don't get killed.
So I actually see it as an actof grace in that aspect, when
you think about the context.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
It was trying to mitigate the amount of damage
and fallout that happened fromsinful people doing stupid
things.
100% it's not a prescriptionfor what he's hoping people
would do.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Or here's some things that you can do, if just things
go south.
Right?
I thought your hair was curly,you're out of here.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Can't you use that same excuse for people who are
living together, having kidstogether, but they're not
married?
Yeah, I would say they aremarried.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
In God's eyes.
That's what's so funny is, ifsomebody is saying I'm not
married, no, all they'reactually saying is I refuse to
actually commit to you, but Idesire all the benefits for
marriage, so I'm going to lie toGod and everyone else about my
relationship with you.
That is wrong, it's fornication.
(29:08):
And in the eyes of God, you twojust came together.
The word I brought this up, timthe words for love in the
Hebrew you have raya, achaya anddod.
Right, raya is friendship,achaya is like choosing to love
somebody through difficulty orafter you've seen difficulty,
and then dote is the mingling ofsouls.
It's when you come together,literally your souls are
(29:32):
mingling.
Like I have intertwined my soulwith this person and you're
like but it's not a big deal,I'm not nothing serious, we have
children, we live together, butwe're not ready for anything
serious.
Yet I'm saying cool, that's thebehavior of an insane person
and it's this belief insomebody's head that there's
somebody out there better forthem and they're just shorting
(29:53):
up their bets and hoping it goesdifferently.
In biblical times they wouldhave stoned you, simply put Like
they would have killed you.
You're sleeping with this woman.
You're not married to her,you're not taking her in, oh,
we're going to kill you.
And for her doing that with you, we're going to kill her too.
Yeah, they would literally killboth.
Why?
Because that this is importantto him.
(30:14):
That is a threat to all ofsociety.
Okay, men and women shacking up, having children, not taking it
seriously is literally a threatto all of society.
You want to see?
What's going on in ourgeneration today is a bunch of
men and women and the governmenttrying to be a daddy to
everyone because nobody iscaring for their kids,
(30:35):
supporting other people orcreating stable homes anymore
rates and why people do whatthey do and what happens.
Look no further than theepidemic of fatherlessness that
is going on in our nation todayand you wonder why the Bible is
like stone people that do that.
Why?
Because they literally willdisrupt your entire society and
(30:58):
create worst case scenarios foreverybody.
Nothing's worse than afatherless son running around
doing a bunch of stuff that heshouldn't be doing, and I would
say the same things Nothing'sworse than a fatherless daughter
running around doing a bunch ofstuff that he shouldn't be
doing.
And I would say the same thingNothing's worse than a
fatherless daughter runningaround and creating more
fatherless sons.
It's the same pattern that'shappening in general.
And look, a lot of people outthere.
You grew up.
Here's where we are.
(31:20):
This is life.
This is what's happening.
You came to Christ later.
Man, mistakes happen, but Ithink it's worth noting.
When we read the Bible, it'sgiving us principles for how
things are supposed to work andtrying to communicate through
the law, how seriouslydetrimental it is and how you
can wreck somebody else's lifeby living your life in this
(31:43):
particular way.
Good communities, goodsocieties, defend against that
so that those things don'tcontinue and don't go on
happening.
And the sexual revolution hasabsolutely destroyed families.
Destroyed families.
Tim, we've talked about this,you know what I mean kind of ad
(32:08):
nauseum the invention of birthcontrol.
Throw in transportation.
We've removed a lot ofresponsibility and oversight
from fathers.
We put it into the hands of menwho were not ready to be men
yet and the result is thegovernment is trying to be
everyone's dad.
Now Women are rebelling againstall men, but they're rebelling
in a way that only benefitsnefarious men, and men that are
(32:31):
actual men are seen as horriblepeople because they're trying to
take us back to some kind ofarchaic time, you know, where
women were protected andrespected and not seen as just
an object but actually somethingvaluable, made in the image of
God, under the structure of howGod called them to live.
So if people look at the Bibleand want to talk about those
archaic times, I just thinkthey're straight blind to what's
(32:54):
happening around us.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Bring back biblical masculinity.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Come on, and femininity, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
And femininity, 100% Right.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So, timmy, this topic kind oftouches everything because it
touches the image of God andwhat he's called us to do.
It touches the hierarchy thatGod has called families, men,
women, our relationship with God, how that's supposed to
function.
It touches offspring, ittouches culture, it touches
(33:21):
households.
Kind of at the middle ofeverything is marriage and God
is commanding us in the TenCommandments hey, defend this,
do not commit adultery, don't doit and dude.
It's wild to me today how peoplewill be like I had my husband
had an emotional affair, so I'mdivorcing him, my wife.
(33:44):
You know, I saw this videoyesterday.
Tim was awful.
It was a 10 minute video clipof a man recording himself
walking out on his wife and kidslike leaving.
And what was hard for me wasnot just the video, it was the
comments of all the people beinglike good for you, way to go.
A lot, a lot of women commentingon there you know, it's better
(34:05):
than him freaking out andkilling his whole family.
And I'm like right, that's ahorrible way to view that.
Yeah, yeah, it's like.
You know, you're right, it's,it's better, is it, though?
I don't know, I I like what?
At what point is this sin andthe destruction of their futures
and the misery of them nothaving a father and the damage
and problems of that.
(34:25):
Like, how are you reallyweighing that out?
Because God is saying thatbasically is a death.
It was one flesh and now thosekids, those daughters, those
sons don't have a father anymoreand that wife doesn't have a
husband.
And you're celebrating, and ourculture is celebrating, as he's
literally driving away sayingI'm leaving for the last time.
Good for you.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
That actually ticks me off, man.
I would use a little bitstronger language.
But about three years ago wewere in the parking lot and it
was when I was doing care and Ihad this couple.
They were yelling at each otherin the parking lot on a Sunday.
I'm talking about yelling tothe point where people are
walking and I walked over.
I'm like, oh, man, lord, it'salready been a long day.
(35:07):
And now it is Walked over andthe first thing I asked was like
, hey, guys, what's going on?
And they were literally.
The woman was distraught, shewas angry and what I found out
was it was the ex-husbandyelling at each other.
And I was like, guys, what's up?
What I found out?
They were trying to get backtogether.
The guy was like, man, we'retrying to reconcile, we're done.
(35:28):
And I just looked at him.
I was like man, I'm so proud ofyou, completely disarmed him.
I said, man, I am proud of you,what a testimony to God that
you were divorced and you'retrying to do what Jesus says be
reconciled.
And that one comment.
What we found out is, two yearslater, they got back together.
That one simple comment ofgrace of, yeah, you're trying to
(35:49):
do the very thing that Satan isagainst.
You're trying to go back toGod's design and his plan and
Satan's going to do everythinghe can, no matter where you are
Church parking a lot, it doesn'tmatter, he's going to oppose it
regardless.
And man, two years ago I foundout they got remarried.
(36:09):
Their kids saw that as atestimony to God's goodness and
His transformative power and Hisgrace.
They see that and now they havea greater testimony now than
they did when they got divorced.
But yet culture would say, oh,good for you, leave them.
When we would say, no, it'sworth it.
Fight for the good thing inGod's gift to you.
Fight for it because it's worthit.
It's not going to be easy.
(36:29):
It's going to be freaking hard,but it's worth it.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
And that's the story of the Bible.
Is God fighting for somebodywho is not worth it, is not
great, is not put together,continues to do the wrong things
, continues to go the oppositedirection?
The Bible would say continuesto do the wrong things,
continues to go the oppositedirection?
The Bible would say continuesto be an adulterous bride that
doesn't care and he continues tochase after love on, care for
(36:54):
and eventually marry thatunfaithful spouse who is a pain
in the butt.
So even things like adulteryyou would look at and you would
say is it grounds for divorce?
I would say, in a sense italmost is divorce.
The question is does that meanyou're going to stop fighting
for the oneness?
That God is saying is whatshould be happening in the first
place?
Now I do think we get into likeabuse and some different things.
(37:18):
I think there's great groundsfor separation If somebody is in
an unsafe situation.
Yeah, I think you can removeyourself from that situation.
Would I immediately recommenddivorce?
No, and I pride myself on beingin ministry for, however many
years, and I've neverrecommended divorce one time and
(37:38):
I just won't.
I get that some people arealready functionally divorced
and I'm trying to get them to.
No, be married, be reconciled,come together, do this thing
right.
But it's messy, but God fightsfor us and God lays down and
gives his life for us.
The first Adam stood by next tothe tree while his wife was
handed over to death.
(37:58):
The second Adam dies on thetree so that his bride could
have life.
And then, obviously, in Eph 5,right, god tells husbands I want
you to do that, I want you tobe the life giver, suffer pain
and difficulty to make sure thatshe has life, and I want her to
live her life like this, insubmission to you, walking out
(38:21):
what you've called her to do,just like Christ has called his
church.
And look, it's crazy, it's a,it's an insane thing.
Men, women, they're verydifferent.
It's not perfect, but I willtell you this God's way is way
better than all the other thingsthat are going on.
And if you want it to besomething valuable and great, I
(38:41):
would say your relationship withGod is going to define what
that actually looks like.
And a lot of people want to fixtheir marriage just by working
on their marriage.
And I would say you work onyour marriage best by spending
more time with Jesus and thenallowing Jesus to tell you how
you need to work on yourmarriage, because the stuff you
think needs fixed is usuallyslightly different than what God
(39:02):
is actually going to have youworking on.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
What about people who are just maybe dating, starting
out courting?
What are some good signs oradvice you give to watch out for
this emotional divorce stuff?
My wife and I courted.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
My wife and I courted .
I was in Okinawa, japan.
We met each other in Okinawa,japan, and she went back to
America and I asked permission.
I was old school.
I asked permission to courtwith her parents and they said,
yeah, courting means that youare pursuing marriage, you have
the intent to pursue marriage,so there's no premarital sex.
(39:38):
There has to be healthyboundaries set there.
So my wife and I, when wecourted, we held hands.
We did not kiss.
We held hands when I askedpermission to marry and I could
be wrong, I think we didn't kiss, but I know that when we got
engaged we decided to kiss.
But there had to be healthyboundaries that we had to set
(39:59):
with each other, because somepeople don't have self-control.
Other people do.
So there's got to be somehealthy boundaries.
But I think an aspect ofcourting we intentionally knew
that she was a Christian, I wasa Christian and we want to
fulfill it and honor God in afull transparency.
My wife was pure when we gotmarried.
I was not.
My wife was a virgin.
I was not, but we understoodthat and we understood that God
(40:22):
can still redeem my past, eventhough I did not fulfill what
God's desire was in my own life,not yours, ted, right, yeah,
but I will tell you, man, likehealthy boundaries and
understanding, like if you don'thonor because I think one of my
favorite verses I think it'sHebrews, I think it's like 11.
It says the marriage bed shouldbe undefiled and kept pure above
(40:42):
all things.
Defiled and kept pure above allthings.
If you are trying to be married, if you don't enter it
fulfilling God's design andkeeping the marriage pure, which
is the supremest form ofworship in a marriage in my own
opinion, it's the supremest formof worship and glorifying God
in a marriage with that oneness.
If you don't do that beforehand, god will not honor that
marriage because you've alreadydefiled it before you even
(41:03):
entered it.
Now, if you have already donethat and you're engaged, I
absolutely believe that God canredeem it and honor you if you
make a conscious commitment toforsake self and honor God.
If you've already hadpre-marital sex and say, hey,
you know what Lord, we messed up, forgive us, because there's
grace, and he will forgive you,but then you commit to being
faithful and honoring it andhe'll still bless that marriage
(41:26):
if you honor him, you, but thenyou commit to being faithful and
honoring it and he'll stillbless that marriage If you honor
him.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I really believe that , man.
Yeah, there's a lot there, eventhis topic.
Tim, everything I want to do islike get into all the potential
scenarios You're talking about,like dating.
Here's what I would say whenyou, when somebody says
courtship, what I would just sayand you can use the term
courtship, that's fine.
You want to honor the role ofthe husband and wife that raised
that person as the spiritualhead and covering and
(41:56):
responsible party for thatindividual, and you should not
place yourself as the head orcovering of that person until
you are actually in that role.
So what you're saying is mygoal would not be to attempt to
be that person's covering,attempt to pretend to be that
person's pseudo-wife orpseudo-husband until that girl
(42:21):
or that boy is ready to actuallysay I'm leaving them, I'm
coming with you and I amtrusting you as you trust God.
And a lot of people want to dothis.
We'll meet outside of thecovering halfway in between and
we'll pretend to be married fora little while or we'll get as
close as we can to see if it'ssomething we actually want to go
(42:43):
all the way with, and I'm likethat's sin in every aspect.
So, if she has a covering andyou are not yet her covering,
then you're acting like I'mactually dating her family, not
her.
I'm dating her.
I'm dating, if you want to callit this way, or I'm courting
her whole family as a unit tosee if this is something that I
(43:05):
actually want to do, not her asan individual.
Apart from that, and datingwants to recognize individuals.
Courtship is trying torecognize headship that God put
in place and say I'm eitherbringing you in and being your
head or you are staying thereand under the authority that's
going on there.
But we're not pretending thatthere's some middle ground,
(43:26):
because there's not.
Either you're there or you'rehere, but we're not playing
around in the middle.
That's what courtship issupposed to be, which means high
visibility.
The whole everything you do toher I do to you joke really is
kind of this covenant idea ofhey, it's not her, it's us,
we're deciding on you and youguys are deciding on us.
(43:46):
And if this is a good idea,it's something that creates a
new head and a new family andthen you will have
responsibility to defend later.
One of the other big problems inour society today, tim, is
father's headship.
This idea of like I'm supposedto protect and provide for my
daughter.
That's kind of gone away.
Girls are going to do what theywant.
They're teenagers.
(44:08):
They're going to, you know,boys are going to sow wild oats
and do that.
It's like no biblical societyis not supposed to look like
that and husbands and wives aresupposed to be deeply involved
in the potential relationshipsthat are going to happen with
their kids and unfortunatelywe're not.
We don't care about it, we justlet it go.
I do want to say this, cause Icause I didn't get into it and I
think it's important.
(44:30):
There are verses in portions infirst Corinthians and really
that have to do with abandonment.
Yeah, first Peter talks abouthey, if you're like, if your
husband's a non-believer, youshould win him over with your
good behavior.
But if he abandons you, if he'sleaving or, I would even say it
this way, if he is physicallyabusing you, your children are
(44:55):
in danger.
Man, get help, get out of thereas soon as you possibly can.
Go to a church, go to lawenforcement, go to boat,
whatever you got to do, but getout of that position, get some
help.
And I would say, if that personis not pursuing treating you
better, doing the right things,and is just avoiding and leaving
, then you're okay to stay whereyou're at Um now, obviously, if
(45:17):
that guy can get his craptogether and get his life right
and get there great.
But two scenarios here.
One if you're in danger, leaveand you're under grounds to
leave, would I say you'redivorced immediately.
No, would I say you should tryto work through that and get to
a better place yes.
Does he need some help?
Yes.
Should you stay in a safe placetill that help is in place and
he's doing better?
Yes.
(45:39):
If you were abandoned, though,if somebody is an unbeliever and
walks out on you, the Bible issaying you don't have to go
after them.
If you love Jesus and theydon't, and they go the way of
the world and you're still here,you're not required to go chase
that person down.
However, I don't know that thatreleases you to marry someone
(45:59):
else.
Now, a lot of people would sayin that case, you're good to
remarry, and I think a lot ofpeople have, and I think there's
grace there for people thathave, but I do.
I don't know that the Bible issaying it's a good idea for you
to go marry somebody else.
In the event that that'shappened, I think.
I think at that point you mightneed to rely on some other
people to be spiritual heads andspiritual influence and
(46:22):
protection in your family.
Normally in Israelite society,this would be your father.
Your father is going to takeover for you.
He'll care for you and therewould be justice.
If somebody did that, you'reliterally going to kill that guy
so that that doesn't happenanymore.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
I watched this YouTube documentary last night
with my wife and stepson.
I don't know if you guys it wasrose something.
It was about this mormoninfluencer on tiktok, but her
kids were like super abused andshe was blaming it on satan and
the evil.
Kids are evil, so she wouldlike lock them in closets, duct
tape their wounds, put cayennepepper and honey on their wombs,
(47:01):
duct tape them shut.
And this kid escaped and wentto the neighbor's house and,
huge thing with the husband camein the picture.
They've been the police station.
It's like no, we've beenseparated for a year.
It's like what was that time?
You saw the kids, like whenthat happened.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
So like a year ago.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
That's all I was talking to my wife.
I'm like Separated or not, Iwouldn't just ignore my kids.
Like that, like that drove meabsolutely crazy and this whole
thing blew up.
She got life in prison and allthat nonsense.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
But yeah, that's.
That's horrifying dude, it wasjust weird, just go on yeah.
What kind of husband leavesthere Like I said, leaves their
family and what kind of?
What kind of wife leaves herhusband and kids?
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Yeah, they were Mormon too, but he was also like
I to listen to her and one daycoming back and being married
with her.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
To me that's a cop-out.
Yeah, to me that's a cop-out.
That's like, yeah, if you wantme to live apart from everybody
and just be in sin and not takecare of my kids and not see them
, that's what I'll do.
That's not heroism, man, that'sbeing a beta.
That just is.
I'm like I would be involvedwith the pastors.
I beta, that just is.
I'm like I would be involvedwith the pastors.
I would be doing everythingthat I could to fight for my
(48:08):
kids.
There's a snowball's chance inhell that somebody is going to
keep me from seeing and lovingand pouring into my children.
I mean, I'd die on that hilland I know sometimes there can
be some man.
I've been this person and thatperson.
There's some healthy distanceand spaces, I get that.
But yeah, I mean, jesus foughtfor his bride.
We need to fight for ours andthe church is supposed to love
(48:31):
and fight for a deep love forJesus.
And I would say this that lovedoesn't happen on its own.
That's an intentional thingthat you cultivate and you run
after and you make happen,because it's not something that
naturally just feels amazing andworks out for you.
Junk food happens naturally.
Getting fat happens naturally.
(48:51):
Making stupid mistakes happensnaturally.
Marriage, kids covenant, thattakes intention, that's.
That's a work of God, nice socool.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Well, hey, nick, thanks for being here, bud, yeah
dude, love hearing from you.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
I just want to encourage anybody who is
wrestling through this right now.
I'm just going to pray for youand then, guys again, get help
when you need, talk to a pastorif you need to, but no matter
what, fight for the institutionof marriage, fight for your own
marriage, fight for the peoplein your life and fight so that
you would never get to a placewhere this would be something
that you would actually have toconsider with any kind of
(49:27):
gravity.
Lord, we just pray that youwould bless people who are
wrestling through this.
God, I pray that your presenceand power would rest on them,
that you would protect them fromthe evil one, that you would
give them great strength throughyour word, great rest through
prayer, lord, and great insightto know how to fight for the
things that you say are valuableand matter.
Lord, we love you and we trustyou, and I just entrust these
(49:47):
people to you who are strugglingwith it, and we ask that you
would bless them, be with themand give them everything that
they need to be the people thatyou've called them to, in Jesus
name Amen.
Right on, guys, have a greatweek, see you all next time.
Hey guys, welcome back to Navigate.
Justin is here.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I am here.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
And we have Nick with us again.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
What's up?
What's up?
Nick, the man, the myth, thelegend, the pastor.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Thanks for coming back to talk about this with us,
buddy.
Yeah, man, looking forward toit.
We took a break because of theholidays and then we recorded
this episode and we had sometechnical faults.
Now we're redoing it for thesecond time, which is always a
good time.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So if you don't, like this episode it's only a
tribute to the original episode.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
You'll never know how good that episode was it was
the greatest episode that weever recorded.
But you're never going to knowthat it doesn't get better than
the episode on adultery.
So yeah, Commandment 7.
Jeez.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Well, we've been getting some work done, man.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, we're almost done.
That's weird.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Well, I'm proud of us today, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thank you, I need to hear that.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
So I know everybody's been waiting with bated breath
to talk about this fun topic,Talk about adultery.
This is like a nightmare topic,though, in our world today,
because inside the church andoutside of the church, I feel
like this has become somethingjust insane.
This has become something justinsane.
Ironically, I think it was alsoa huge topic of contention and
(01:30):
problem in Jesus' day as well,and even before that.
You know one of the some of thebest stories in the Bible.
One of them in particular isI'm trying to think of the one
in Judges Tim, where the guy issleeping with somebody, somebody
he's not supposed to and theguy goes into his tent and just
spears both of them through.
(01:50):
Yeah, what's the name I can'tremember, but listen, things got
epic, all right, it was, it waswild out there, but yeah, so
this, this topic, uh, tim, I'mcurious like how you want to
kick it off you know that's.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
This has probably been difficult, I think, for
both of us on this topic,because we have discussed pieces
of this over the years on thispodcast, yeah, so not trying to
rehash everything back seems alittle difficult.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Well, I guess, in the biblical sense of when God gave
this commandment to Moses forthe people, what was he actually
talking about?
We'll just start there.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Okay.
So the let's say, the placethat gets quoted the most with
regard to this is what we see inLuke 16 and Matthew.
Chapter five is in Deuteronomy,chapter four or 24.
Sorry, deuteronomy, am I right?
24.
24.
Let me pull it up real quick.
(02:45):
I will read it to you and thenmaybe give you some context.
It says when a man takes a wifeand marries her and it happens
that she finds no favor in hiseyes because he has found some
indecency in her Now that wordwe're going to get into as a
point of contention in a minuteand he writes her a certificate
of divorce and puts it in herhand and sends her out from his
(03:06):
house, and she leaves his houseand goes and becomes another
man's wife.
And if later the husband turnsagainst her and writes her a
certificate of divorce and putsit in her hand and sends her out
of the house, or if the latterhusband dies, who took her to be
his wife, then her formerhusband, who sent her away, is
not allowed to take her again tobe his wife, since she has been
defiled.
For that is an Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
So divorce is always the woman's fault, that is it,
Tim, Close down the podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Remember this was just a tribute.
That is the text that is kind ofthe argument point that we see
in Matthew 5 and in Luke 16,when the Pharisees come up and
ask Jesus about divorce.
Okay, they're trying to trapJesus by putting him in the
(04:03):
middle of a contention thatexists in that day and age
between these two groups ofPharisees called the Hallel and
the Shammai, and the Shammaihave this, let's say, more rigid
, solid interpretation of thisverse, which is that indecency
he's finding in her is adulteryshe's sleeping around.
(04:24):
He's finding in her is adulteryshe's sleeping around.
This is why the commandment'sabout putting somebody to death
If you find them in adulterydoing these things.
He's saying that kind ofindecency is what this passage
is referring to, given thecontext of the rest of
Deuteronomic law.
And then you have this groupfrom Berkeley called the Hillel
group you know what I mean fromBerkeley, called the Halal group
(04:49):
.
You know what I mean.
And and their idea is indecencycould be anything.
Maybe you didn't like how shemade your steak and eggs that
morning, which they probablywouldn't eat together, you know.
Anyway, I'm sorry, I'm goingout of my mind and their idea
was basically no, you candivorce a girl for anything,
anything that you want toconsider indecency, and these
two groups were kind of in a warabout what this text was
(05:11):
talking about.
And I would like to take a stepback and say, when we read the
Old Testament law, what we'rereading is case law.
This is not prescribing topeople what they should be doing
.
This is not prescribing topeople what they should be doing
.
This is explaining what'shappening in circumstances and
some things they need to knowabout how not to handle
(05:32):
circumstances that are going tocome up.
The Bible here is notprescribing divorce.
The Bible here is saying whenthese things happen, here's what
I want you to do, kind of likethe Bible is not prescribing
murder, but it is givingscenarios in scripture where
murder happens and some thingsto do and not to do in the event
(05:55):
that those things take place.
It's like the Bible, especiallythe law, is telling you, as
things happen in your societyhere's how I want you to
navigate it.
Not because it's happening insociety, we're telling you
that's happen in your society.
Here's how I want you tonavigate it.
Not because it's happening insociety, we're telling you
that's a good thing, or itshould happen, or this is a
normal thing that you shouldjust allow to go on.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, Just accept it.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yes.
So they're trying to give youprinciples, and let's say
general principles, that youwere to derive from these
stories that it's telling aboutthings that are going to come up
, so that you would navigatethem well and walk through them
in a way that makes sense givencertain circumstances.
But like all men and women,mankind, we want to get into the
(06:34):
details and say, yeah, but whatcan I get away with?
Right?
So they find a word and they'relike well, let's just, let's
talk about that for a minute,because she burnt my eggs last
night.
You know what I mean.
Or or whatever it might be, orin our day and age.
Let's just be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I just don't feel like he listens to me, you know
whatever that, whatever thatmight be between man or woman.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
But but I would say, ultimately, the Bible is not
prescribing divorce.
It's never recommending divorce.
It's never telling people isnot prescribing divorce.
It's never recommending divorce.
It's never telling peopledivorce is a good idea.
It's never telling peopledivorce is something that would
be okay.
It's saying there are sometimes where that is going to be
a reality and going to happen.
And that's what takes us to thatpassage in Matthew 5 and Luke
(07:20):
16 where Jesus is talking aboutwhat things look like or what
was the purpose from thebeginning in general, and his
point was hey, you know and thisis where we get into the
conversation about adultery itseems like Jesus was aligning
himself with the Shammai schooland saying no, adultery is the
only reason that you would beable to divorce somebody, which
(07:44):
is, if somebody has functionallyleft you and has created
covenant with somebody else,it's the same as that person
basically being dead.
And, nick, I'd love for you tojump in, tell me your thoughts
on this, because we've beentalking back and forth and I'm
curious to see.
Would you say that adultery isgrounds for divorce or would you
(08:04):
say it may be grounds but it'snot a reason?
Speaker 3 (08:07):
That's where I would land.
I think Jesus always reaffirmedeverything he did.
He always referred back to thebeginning.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
It was said in the beginning.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
So he always referred to God's perfect design, and I
feel like in today's age, it'slike oh no, I got you, I caught
you looking at porn.
Now you're out of here.
Or I had an emotional film.
I don't want to have commitment, let me get out of here.
I feel like it's a cop-outinstead of a commitment.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah Well, there are some issues here, all right,
okay, so I'll just tell you Iwas listening to this Jewish guy
.
So I'll just tell you, I waslistening to this Jewish guy.
I'm trying to think of Dennis.
Prager big name, okay, big name.
He was saying men don't commitadultery with their heads, they
commit adultery with the otherpart of their body.
(08:53):
And I said there's a sense inwhich he is entirely correct and
there is a sense in which he isentirely wrong.
Yeah, this I mean, if you, thepoint that he was making is that
watching pornography is not bad.
He said it's not sin becauseit's not actually adultery.
And I would say there's a sensein which he's right.
(09:15):
That person is not committingthat kind of, let's say,
full-fledged I'm sleeping withanother woman adultery.
However, it is absolutelyevidence of a corrupt heart that
is walking down a road that youshould not walk, mingling with
things that you should notmingle, I would even say
interacting and let's saysexually interacting with demons
(09:35):
in a way that is not great.
By that I mean it's freakinghorrible, okay, but there is a
difference between, let's say,pornography and adultery, and
sometimes we want to put thosethings in the same category.
All of us would agree there isa difference between being angry
at somebody and murderingsomebody.
(09:56):
But Jesus says to be angry witha brother is to murder them,
and I'm like so do you want meto tell everyone?
They're guilty of murder as well.
Are you guilty of murderbecause you were angry at your
wife or husband for watchingpornography?
Are you now a murderer too?
Is that what you mean?
I don't think that's what youmean.
There is a difference between,by the way, crime and sin.
(10:16):
Sure, and in this scenario,there's a difference between,
let's say, adultery and, letlet's say, lust of the heart.
Yeah, right, and the Biblecondemns both.
Okay, but but I do think it'sworth noting.
Some people today want to sayif somebody is watching
pornography, it's the same asadultery, and I would say, nope,
that's a cop out.
(10:36):
People like to talk aboutemotional affairs, emotional
adultery.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
And I would say what is?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
that you start to allow your heart to fall in love
with somebody or catch feelingsfor somebody, and nothing has
happened, nothing has goneanywhere with it, but you
allowed yourself to go fartherthan you would like to with your
own heart with somebody.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
It's like Jack and Rose at the Titanic at the door
scene, isn't that?
Speaker 1 (11:03):
called dating Jack and Rose at the.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Titanic scene door scene.
Isn't that called dating Jackand Rose at the Titanic scene?
That's what an emotionaladultery looks like.
There you go, Tim.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I don't even know what he's talking about, but I'm
sure it's accurate.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I mean, I would just call that dating right.
So what are you talking about?
But in the context of marriage.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Okay, so with marriage, yeah in my experience
and Justin call me out if I'm Inmy experience women because
they're more emotional.
That's how God made them.
They desire that more, that'smore of a connection, whereas
men might be more physical.
There's issues at home withtheir husbands, so they have
(11:41):
like a co-worker or aquote-unquote friend.
I think it'd be as marquee yousay he's just a friend.
You have that friend but you arepouring into that friend.
You're getting your emotionalfeel, You're getting that
validation and that emotionalconnection with someone other
than your husband From that guyyou're chatting with on
Instagram or Facebook.
Tic-tac.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Tic-tac, face back.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
China's going to stop that soon.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So it's that, so you're talking like work
husbands, work wives, but at anemotional at an emotional level
that they're not connecting withat home.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, so so you are not, um, and then we're getting
into like grounds for divorceand everything else so fast and
really the topic is ultimately,first and foremost, adultery,
which is, hey, you are not, ifyou are in covenant and married,
to go and sleep with someoneelse.
You're not supposed to do that.
(12:37):
You're supposed to sleep withyour husband or your wife, if
you are a man or a woman, andyou're supposed to make sure
that you are laying your lifedown for that person.
Husbands are to provide andprotect their families.
Wives are to submit to theirhusbands and nurture and care
for their families and raise upthe young, and they're to come
(12:58):
together and have offspring.
It's supposed to be awesome.
The whole story of the Bible iskind of this story of this
relationship with God, framed inthe categories of marriage.
It culminates in God restoringhis bride to himself and at the
end of all things, there's thewedding feast of the lamb, as
the bridegroom and the bride arebrought together at the end of
(13:20):
all things.
So the whole picture of theBible is marriage.
It's supposed to be seen assomething that is holy and good
and beautiful and ultimatelythis picture of adultery has
everything to do with our ownrelationship with God, because
God is saying the way that Iview myself and my church is in
(13:41):
the same terms of a husband anda wife, and the way that you
treat your wife and the way thatyou treat your husband is
actually a picture of how you,your relationship with me is,
and I would say it's a hundredpercent accurate.
Um, nobody who is in a greatplace with God is cheating on
their wife.
Nobody who is in a great placewith God is cheating on their
(14:02):
husband.
Yeah, nobody in a great placewith God is watching a bunch of
pornography or or having anemotional affair.
Right, and I'm okay withcalling it that because we're
not calling it adultery, but Ido think affair usually means
adultery.
I don't know, there's a lot oflanguage here.
It's worth noting here that thepicture ultimately because we're
(14:23):
framing everything in thecontext of the Ten Commandments
is, if you love God, if you puthim first, if you understand the
rules of the house with yourown personal relationship with
God, then how that overflows tohow you love your neighbor.
In this case, your spouseshould look the same way, and if
that's out of order, then thisis going to be out of order and
the reason Jesus is saying, theonly reason you guys are in this
(14:45):
fight is because you're totallymissing the point of what I'm
getting at.
People had hard hearts.
He's writing laws for peoplewith hard hearts who are doing
the wrong things, and you'retrying to come up with reasons
to be able to do stuff thatshouldn't be happening in the
first place, because you guysare misinterpreting and
misunderstanding what Godintended for all of you when he
was just giving you things tohelp mitigate some of the damage
(15:06):
that's going to happen becauseof sinful people.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah, you know, what's interesting, too, is in
Mark 10 is where the Phariseestend to.
When the Pharisees come up andthey start questioning it, and
what I really do like Jesusasked him is like what does
Moses command you?
So the word command stands outa lot, because obviously they're
talking about the law, yeah,and then right after that they
the verse four says they saidMoses permitted, yeah, permitted
(15:32):
.
Don't miss that.
After that, the verse 4 saysthey said Moses permitted, yeah,
permitted.
Don't miss that, becauseoftentimes when I talk to people
they're like oh, the Biblegives me permission to do this.
It says that I'm commanded todo it, but it doesn't.
The command's always beenfaithfulness.
Moses permitted.
There's a semantical thingthere that I'd like to pull on
sometime.
Yeah, but I think that'simportant.
I think that's important, Ithink that's true.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I think that's really good.
I think God commandsrighteousness and he allows sin
for a time, and then at somepoint he's wiping it all out and
it's being destroyed.
In the same way, when we thinkabout marriage and we think
about the sanctity of marriageand what that means, I think we
need to think about it indifferent terms and frames, and
(16:12):
we're always looking forloopholes and we're always
trying to be lawyers you knowwhat I mean.
Like come up with reasons forwhy our particular scenario is
different, or anything like that.
I think it's wild.
I did want to bring up briefly,Tim, a passage that I think has
to do with this, that mostpeople don't love to get into,
and that's 1 Corinthians 11.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Head coverings.
Huh, yes, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I think 1 Corinthians 11 has a lot to do with this
kind of situation, and then I'llexplain to you a little bit
about it.
He starts out by saying Paul,be imitators of me, as I also am
of christ.
All right.
So right off the bat you havethis paul is under christ and
(17:00):
imitating christ.
And then here's what he says Iwant you to understand christ is
the head of every man, man isthe head of every woman and god
is the head of every woman andGod is the head of Christ.
Okay, so that passage rightthere, by the way, pisses
everybody off, because the wholething is a hierarchy.
He's saying God, christ, right,or God the Father, christ the
(17:24):
Son, created man and then woman.
That's what it's about, andeveryone's like how dare you Not
the God the Father, christ theSon part, but everything that
came after?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
that right Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Every man who has something on his head while
praying or prophesying disgraceshis head.
Every woman who has her headuncovered while praying or
prophesying disgraces her head,for she is one and the same as
the woman whose head is shaved.
For if a woman does not coverher head, let her also have her
hair cut off, nice.
But if it is a disgrace for awoman to have her hair cut off,
her head shaved, let her coverher head.
(18:00):
For a man ought not to shavehis head covered, since he is
the image and glory of God, butthe woman is the glory of man,
for man does not originate fromwoman, but woman from man.
So I would just like to takethat.
Um, now, let me.
Let me keep going, for indeed,man was not created for the
woman's sake, but the woman forthe man's sake.
Therefore, the woman ought tohave a symbol of authority on
(18:23):
her head because of the angels.
Okay, we can get into more, wecan talk more in this passage,
but he's basically giving ahierarchy.
He's saying this is what it'ssupposed to look like, and if
you are under the authority thatyou're supposed to be under,
then you're not going to end upin rebellion.
So the whole passage here isultimately about submission to
(18:45):
God's created order, then whathe's getting at is the opposite
of that is actually rebellion, Ilove to say.
Today a head covering for awoman was like the equivalent of
dressing modestly right.
So some people would like tobring back head coverings
because their belief is that ahead covering is a great symbol
to people in the church that asa wife I'm under the authority
(19:08):
of my husband, I would say Idon't think most people
understand that that's what itmeans today, so it would kind of
be redundant.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
But not having a wedding ring.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So not having a head coveringin our day and age would be more
like a girl dressing reallyslutty and going and flirting
with a bunch of other guys.
It's saying I'm not.
I'm kind of open for business,I'm I'm I'm not really
respecting my husband, I'm doingmy own thing, I'm a strong
independent woman.
Yeah, whatever, right, it's thatpicture and I would even say
(19:39):
that the idea is, men, you'renot supposed to have this going
on, because you're supposed tobe the one who is actually
connecting with God in thisfashion and to be the covering
for your wife, and that coveringon her head represents that she
is under your covering andyou're protecting and taking
care of her.
A man to wear a head coveringwas like the equivalent of of
(20:00):
him saying I'm the female, I'mthe one that's under her
covering, I'm.
It would be like beingeffeminate in a sense, right?
So a man who's um having hiswife take care of him she makes
all the calls, she does all thethings, yeah it would be like
that would be the equivalent.
It'd be like something is wrong.
What is he doing?
Well, he's not stepping up,he's not being the man that he's
(20:22):
supposed to be, he's notleading, he's not protecting,
he's not providing, he's not acovering.
That's rebellion to god.
And then he throws in thisabstract comment where he says
because of the angels.
Most people are like hmm, yeah,because of the angels.
It's a joke in my house with meand my wife, anytime there's
(20:43):
something weird or random thathappens you know what I mean or
just some abstract thing, she'lljust look at me and will be
like because of the angels,devil made me do this.
It seems like it comes out ofleft field, but if you realize,
this entire passage is abouthierarchy, god's ordained
structure and what's supposed tohappen, and he's communicating
submission to that structureinstead of rebellion.
(21:03):
And then he says rebellion.
Well, what's the last thingthat happened when men and women
and, let's say, divine beings,got out of their normal
structure?
You have Genesis 6.
You have literally the Nephilim.
You have women sleeping withthe sons of God, not men, but
(21:24):
literally all kinds of weirdstuff happened, god knows who
and God knows what.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Thank you too.
The Lord knows what.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
You know what's interesting, man, and might be a
rabbit hole.
We get down later.
But in verse six, when you talkabout to a woman, it's disgrace
when they shave their head.
Isn't there a movement rightnow, now that Trump's in office,
where women are rebellingagainst men and refusing to
sleep with men but also shavingtheir head as an act of
rebellion?
It's totally demonic andspiritual and I don't think we
(21:54):
realize that.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I do think there is a real element to hair, like
females and their hair and likewhy is it, tim, whenever a girl
decides to go feminist, thefirst thing to go is her hair.
You know, I don't know, dowhatever you want with that, but
it's got to be shaved on oneside, or blue, or give herself a
(22:16):
mohawk or something.
But suddenly it becomessomething else entirely.
I don't know.
It's interesting.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Well, doesn't the scripture say it's to her glory.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, god literally like provided a type of covering
.
But what I wanted to get at, tim, god literally like provided a
type of covering.
But what I wanted to get at, tim, is the whole idea of adultery
and the Ten Commandments reallystems from this idea of our love
for God and our taking ourplace with him is happening the
way that it's supposed to, thenthe overflow of that is
something beautiful and good andGod's ordained creation
(22:47):
flourishing.
What happens when we stepoutside of the good thing that
God has given us in marriage andsubmission and perspective, and
how we honor and cover eachother, whether men stepping out
and sleeping with other womenand removing that covering from
their spouse, or women steppingout from underneath the covering
of their husband and sleepingwith somebody else what you're
doing is what the demons did.
(23:09):
What you're doing is doing whatSatan does, which is step
outside of God's ordainedpicture for how things are
supposed to function.
And if you consider that sex issupposed to be this picture of
oneness right, two people comingtogether and the Trinity is
supposed to be this picture ofoneness, two things being one or
(23:32):
three things being one in it,sorry, in a profound mystery.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
It was cursed.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
In a profound mystery .
We're like man.
We don't totally understand it,but that is crazy and beautiful
and wonderful.
Then, every time Satan assaultssex in marriage, in this
beautiful picture of what it'ssupposed to be, he's actually
assaulting the very image of Goditself.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Thumbing his nose at him.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, and so when we look at this passage in 1
Corinthians 11, I think it'sjust a great reminder that
adultery is ultimately a demonicfinger in the face of the image
of God.
Yes, because the one thing thatis supposed to show oneness and
beauty and is supposed to be apicture of the culmination of
how God started and ends allthings.
(24:14):
He starts with the marriage,adam and Eve.
He ends with the marriage, thebride and the bridegroom, and in
this beautiful picture he'sredeeming all things to himself.
But what Satan loves to do isprofane that thing all along the
way.
And what's sad is that, evenstarting this podcast, we get
into all the details about whenpeople are asking when it's okay
(24:35):
to profane the identity of Godthrough their marriage bed.
When is it okay to step away andnot fight for this anymore and
not care about it?
When is it okay to destroy thison whatever grounds?
I have and it's awful, it'slike you don't realize that God
calls it an abomination and sayshe hates it because it's a
personal slander to his owngoodness and identity.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yep, so is adultery in a marriage the only grounds
to actually divorce?
Great question.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Look, in my opinion, divorce is when two people are
not, let's say, sleepingtogether, they're not living in
the covenant and, let's say,structure that God has ordained
Husbands loving their wivesbeing a provision of protection,
wives submitting to theirhusbands being a helper and a
(25:31):
nurturer.
When that stops happening, theystop coming together in oneness
and living opposite of eachother instead of together.
What you're essentially doingis tearing your souls apart.
You are functionally divorcedwhen you start living divorced.
You are officially divorcedwhen you sign papers that say
you're divorced.
You are officially divorcedwhen you sign papers that say
(25:51):
you're divorced.
My good friend Rob Kelly, wetalk about this pretty
frequently, but I think a lot ofpeople are divorced way before
they're divorced.
A piece of paper doesn't makeyou married.
It's you living and walking outthe covenant that you made to
God about how you would love,treat, be with care, for there's
a lot of men who are haven'tslept with their spouse spouse,
(26:15):
I'm making air quotes for those.
You can't see the.
You know they can't.
No, they're not doing that.
They live in the basement.
She lives upstairs, but theystay together for the kids.
What does that mean?
We're co-parenting, but I'm notmarried to her.
That's what that means.
Well, no, no, no, we're notdivorced, we're just not
sleeping together.
Okay, no, you're divorced, youjust don't have a piece of paper
(26:37):
from the government that'ssaying divorce.
I will say this divorce isirrevocably associated with the
civil magistrate because it hasto do with property and children
and livelihood, which isdirectly associated with what
the civil magistrate is supposedto oversee and help with right.
So it's two people's propertycoming together and becoming one
(26:58):
piece of property.
Now tax brackets and all thatstuff is the same Even in
biblical times.
Obviously it was property, itwas livelihood.
The government is supposed tooversee and try to help in those
circumstances.
Why in deuteronomic law it'ssaying if these things happen,
here's some of the stuff thatyou might need to do as a civil
magistrate to navigate this.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Well, not a recommendation of what god is
saying is supposed to happenyeah, that's what I like about
deuteronomy 24, because whenwe're studying it is during that
time frame.
Women could not work.
It was a cultural aspect wherethey could not work.
So if a woman did not have acertificate of divorce, in this
case there's no way to providefor her, which is the whole
(27:40):
point of.
You need this documentation inorder to be remarried so that
another man can take care of youand provide for you.
Otherwise, her only option isprostitution and we know what
the punishment for that was.
It was going to be death anddestruction.
So the only way and I actuallysaw that as an act of grace if
I'm fully transparent, like evenin the midst of the hardest
(28:02):
thing, god's heart for a womanright there is.
I know that you can't providefor yourself.
Moses allowed that I'm takingcare of you because it's a way
for another man to say, hey, ifI do this, I don't get killed.
So I actually see it as an actof grace in that aspect, when
you think about the context.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
It was trying to mitigate the amount of damage
and fallout that happened fromsinful people doing stupid
things.
100% it's not a prescriptionfor what he's hoping people
would do.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Or here's some things that you can do, if just things
go south.
Right?
I thought your hair was curly,you're out of here.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Can't you use that same excuse for people who are
living together, having kidstogether, but they're not
married?
Yeah, I would say they aremarried.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
In God's eyes.
That's what's so funny is, ifsomebody is saying I'm not
married, no, all they'reactually saying is I refuse to
actually commit to you, but Idesire all the benefits for
marriage, so I'm going to lie toGod and everyone else about my
relationship with you.
That is wrong, it's fornication.
(29:08):
And in the eyes of God, you twojust came together.
The word I brought this up, timthe words for love in the
Hebrew you have raya, achaya anddod.
Right, raya is friendship,achaya is like choosing to love
somebody through difficulty orafter you've seen difficulty,
and then dote is the mingling ofsouls.
It's when you come together,literally your souls are
(29:32):
mingling.
Like I have intertwined my soulwith this person and you're
like but it's not a big deal,I'm not nothing serious, we have
children, we live together, butwe're not ready for anything
serious.
Yet I'm saying cool, that's thebehavior of an insane person
and it's this belief insomebody's head that there's
somebody out there better forthem and they're just shorting
(29:53):
up their bets and hoping it goesdifferently.
In biblical times they wouldhave stoned you, simply put Like
they would have killed you.
You're sleeping with this woman.
You're not married to her,you're not taking her in, oh,
we're going to kill you.
And for her doing that with you, we're going to kill her too.
Yeah, they would literally killboth.
Why?
Because that this is importantto him.
(30:14):
That is a threat to all ofsociety.
Okay, men and women shacking up, having children, not taking it
seriously is literally a threatto all of society.
You want to see?
What's going on in ourgeneration today is a bunch of
men and women and the governmenttrying to be a daddy to
everyone because nobody iscaring for their kids,
(30:35):
supporting other people orcreating stable homes anymore
rates and why people do whatthey do and what happens.
Look no further than theepidemic of fatherlessness that
is going on in our nation todayand you wonder why the Bible is
like stone people that do that.
Why?
Because they literally willdisrupt your entire society and
(30:58):
create worst case scenarios foreverybody.
Nothing's worse than afatherless son running around
doing a bunch of stuff that heshouldn't be doing, and I would
say the same things Nothing'sworse than a fatherless daughter
running around doing a bunch ofstuff that he shouldn't be
doing.
And I would say the same thingNothing's worse than a
fatherless daughter runningaround and creating more
fatherless sons.
It's the same pattern that'shappening in general.
And look, a lot of people outthere.
You grew up.
Here's where we are.
(31:20):
This is life.
This is what's happening.
You came to Christ later.
Man, mistakes happen, but Ithink it's worth noting.
When we read the Bible, it'sgiving us principles for how
things are supposed to work andtrying to communicate through
the law, how seriouslydetrimental it is and how you
can wreck somebody else's lifeby living your life in this
(31:43):
particular way.
Good communities, goodsocieties, defend against that
so that those things don'tcontinue and don't go on
happening.
And the sexual revolution hasabsolutely destroyed families.
Destroyed families.
Tim, we've talked about this,you know what I mean kind of ad
(32:08):
nauseum the invention of birthcontrol.
Throw in transportation.
We've removed a lot ofresponsibility and oversight
from fathers.
We put it into the hands of menwho were not ready to be men
yet and the result is thegovernment is trying to be
everyone's dad.
Now Women are rebelling againstall men, but they're rebelling
in a way that only benefitsnefarious men, and men that are
(32:31):
actual men are seen as horriblepeople because they're trying to
take us back to some kind ofarchaic time, you know, where
women were protected andrespected and not seen as just
an object but actually somethingvaluable, made in the image of
God, under the structure of howGod called them to live.
So if people look at the Bibleand want to talk about those
archaic times, I just thinkthey're straight blind to what's
(32:54):
happening around us.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Bring back biblical masculinity.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Come on, and femininity, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
And femininity, 100% Right.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So, timmy, this topic kind oftouches everything because it
touches the image of God andwhat he's called us to do.
It touches the hierarchy thatGod has called families, men,
women, our relationship with God, how that's supposed to
function.
It touches offspring, ittouches culture, it touches
(33:21):
households.
Kind of at the middle ofeverything is marriage and God
is commanding us in the TenCommandments hey, defend this,
do not commit adultery, don't doit and dude.
It's wild to me today how peoplewill be like I had my husband
had an emotional affair, so I'mdivorcing him, my wife.
(33:44):
You know, I saw this videoyesterday.
Tim was awful.
It was a 10 minute video clipof a man recording himself
walking out on his wife and kidslike leaving.
And what was hard for me wasnot just the video, it was the
comments of all the people beinglike good for you, way to go.
A lot, a lot of women commentingon there you know, it's better
(34:05):
than him freaking out andkilling his whole family.
And I'm like right, that's ahorrible way to view that.
Yeah, yeah, it's like.
You know, you're right, it's,it's better, is it, though?
I don't know, I I like what?
At what point is this sin andthe destruction of their futures
and the misery of them nothaving a father and the damage
and problems of that.
(34:25):
Like, how are you reallyweighing that out?
Because God is saying thatbasically is a death.
It was one flesh and now thosekids, those daughters, those
sons don't have a father anymoreand that wife doesn't have a
husband.
And you're celebrating, and ourculture is celebrating, as he's
literally driving away sayingI'm leaving for the last time.
Good for you.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
That actually ticks me off, man.
I would use a little bitstronger language.
But about three years ago wewere in the parking lot and it
was when I was doing care and Ihad this couple.
They were yelling at each otherin the parking lot on a Sunday.
I'm talking about yelling tothe point where people are
walking and I walked over.
I'm like, oh, man, lord, it'salready been a long day.
(35:07):
And now it is Walked over andthe first thing I asked was like
, hey, guys, what's going on?
And they were literally.
The woman was distraught, shewas angry and what I found out
was it was the ex-husbandyelling at each other.
And I was like, guys, what's up?
What I found out?
They were trying to get backtogether.
The guy was like, man, we'retrying to reconcile, we're done.
(35:28):
And I just looked at him.
I was like man, I'm so proud ofyou, completely disarmed him.
I said, man, I am proud of you,what a testimony to God that
you were divorced and you'retrying to do what Jesus says be
reconciled.
And that one comment.
What we found out is, two yearslater, they got back together.
That one simple comment ofgrace of, yeah, you're trying to
(35:49):
do the very thing that Satan isagainst.
You're trying to go back toGod's design and his plan and
Satan's going to do everythinghe can, no matter where you are
Church parking a lot, it doesn'tmatter, he's going to oppose it
regardless.
And man, two years ago I foundout they got remarried.
(36:09):
Their kids saw that as atestimony to God's goodness and
His transformative power and Hisgrace.
They see that and now they havea greater testimony now than
they did when they got divorced.
But yet culture would say, oh,good for you, leave them.
When we would say, no, it'sworth it.
Fight for the good thing inGod's gift to you.
Fight for it because it's worthit.
It's not going to be easy.
(36:29):
It's going to be freaking hard,but it's worth it.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
And that's the story of the Bible.
Is God fighting for somebodywho is not worth it, is not
great, is not put together,continues to do the wrong things
, continues to go the oppositedirection?
The Bible would say continuesto do the wrong things,
continues to go the oppositedirection?
The Bible would say continuesto be an adulterous bride that
doesn't care and he continues tochase after love on, care for
(36:54):
and eventually marry thatunfaithful spouse who is a pain
in the butt.
So even things like adulteryyou would look at and you would
say is it grounds for divorce?
I would say, in a sense italmost is divorce.
The question is does that meanyou're going to stop fighting
for the oneness?
That God is saying is whatshould be happening in the first
place?
Now I do think we get into likeabuse and some different things.
(37:18):
I think there's great groundsfor separation If somebody is in
an unsafe situation.
Yeah, I think you can removeyourself from that situation.
Would I immediately recommenddivorce?
No, and I pride myself on beingin ministry for, however many
years, and I've neverrecommended divorce one time and
(37:38):
I just won't.
I get that some people arealready functionally divorced
and I'm trying to get them to.
No, be married, be reconciled,come together, do this thing
right.
But it's messy, but God fightsfor us and God lays down and
gives his life for us.
The first Adam stood by next tothe tree while his wife was
handed over to death.
(37:58):
The second Adam dies on thetree so that his bride could
have life.
And then, obviously, in Eph 5,right, god tells husbands I want
you to do that, I want you tobe the life giver, suffer pain
and difficulty to make sure thatshe has life, and I want her to
live her life like this, insubmission to you, walking out
(38:21):
what you've called her to do,just like Christ has called his
church.
And look, it's crazy, it's a,it's an insane thing.
Men, women, they're verydifferent.
It's not perfect, but I willtell you this God's way is way
better than all the other thingsthat are going on.
And if you want it to besomething valuable and great, I
(38:41):
would say your relationship withGod is going to define what
that actually looks like.
And a lot of people want to fixtheir marriage just by working
on their marriage.
And I would say you work onyour marriage best by spending
more time with Jesus and thenallowing Jesus to tell you how
you need to work on yourmarriage, because the stuff you
think needs fixed is usuallyslightly different than what God
(39:02):
is actually going to have youworking on.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
What about people who are just maybe dating, starting
out courting?
What are some good signs oradvice you give to watch out for
this emotional divorce stuff?
My wife and I courted.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
My wife and I courted .
I was in Okinawa, japan.
We met each other in Okinawa,japan, and she went back to
America and I asked permission.
I was old school.
I asked permission to courtwith her parents and they said,
yeah, courting means that youare pursuing marriage, you have
the intent to pursue marriage,so there's no premarital sex.
(39:38):
There has to be healthyboundaries set there.
So my wife and I, when wecourted, we held hands.
We did not kiss.
We held hands when I askedpermission to marry and I could
be wrong, I think we didn't kiss, but I know that when we got
engaged we decided to kiss.
But there had to be healthyboundaries that we had to set
(39:59):
with each other, because somepeople don't have self-control.
Other people do.
So there's got to be somehealthy boundaries.
But I think an aspect ofcourting we intentionally knew
that she was a Christian, I wasa Christian and we want to
fulfill it and honor God in afull transparency.
My wife was pure when we gotmarried.
I was not.
My wife was a virgin.
I was not, but we understoodthat and we understood that God
(40:22):
can still redeem my past, eventhough I did not fulfill what
God's desire was in my own life,not yours, ted, right, yeah,
but I will tell you, man, likehealthy boundaries and
understanding, like if you don'thonor because I think one of my
favorite verses I think it'sHebrews, I think it's like 11.
It says the marriage bed shouldbe undefiled and kept pure above
(40:42):
all things.
Defiled and kept pure above allthings.
If you are trying to be married, if you don't enter it
fulfilling God's design andkeeping the marriage pure, which
is the supremest form ofworship in a marriage in my own
opinion, it's the supremest formof worship and glorifying God
in a marriage with that oneness.
If you don't do that beforehand, god will not honor that
marriage because you've alreadydefiled it before you even
(41:03):
entered it.
Now, if you have already donethat and you're engaged, I
absolutely believe that God canredeem it and honor you if you
make a conscious commitment toforsake self and honor God.
If you've already hadpre-marital sex and say, hey,
you know what Lord, we messed up, forgive us, because there's
grace, and he will forgive you,but then you commit to being
faithful and honoring it andhe'll still bless that marriage
(41:26):
if you honor him, you, but thenyou commit to being faithful and
honoring it and he'll stillbless that marriage If you honor
him.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I really believe that , man.
Yeah, there's a lot there, eventhis topic.
Tim, everything I want to do islike get into all the potential
scenarios You're talking about,like dating.
Here's what I would say whenyou, when somebody says
courtship, what I would just sayand you can use the term
courtship, that's fine.
You want to honor the role ofthe husband and wife that raised
that person as the spiritualhead and covering and
(41:56):
responsible party for thatindividual, and you should not
place yourself as the head orcovering of that person until
you are actually in that role.
So what you're saying is mygoal would not be to attempt to
be that person's covering,attempt to pretend to be that
person's pseudo-wife orpseudo-husband until that girl
(42:21):
or that boy is ready to actuallysay I'm leaving them, I'm
coming with you and I amtrusting you as you trust God.
And a lot of people want to dothis.
We'll meet outside of thecovering halfway in between and
we'll pretend to be married fora little while or we'll get as
close as we can to see if it'ssomething we actually want to go
(42:43):
all the way with, and I'm likethat's sin in every aspect.
So, if she has a covering andyou are not yet her covering,
then you're acting like I'mactually dating her family, not
her.
I'm dating her.
I'm dating, if you want to callit this way, or I'm courting
her whole family as a unit tosee if this is something that I
(43:05):
actually want to do, not her asan individual.
Apart from that, and datingwants to recognize individuals.
Courtship is trying torecognize headship that God put
in place and say I'm eitherbringing you in and being your
head or you are staying thereand under the authority that's
going on there.
But we're not pretending thatthere's some middle ground,
(43:26):
because there's not.
Either you're there or you'rehere, but we're not playing
around in the middle.
That's what courtship issupposed to be, which means high
visibility.
The whole everything you do toher I do to you joke really is
kind of this covenant idea ofhey, it's not her, it's us,
we're deciding on you and youguys are deciding on us.
(43:46):
And if this is a good idea,it's something that creates a
new head and a new family andthen you will have
responsibility to defend later.
One of the other big problems inour society today, tim, is
father's headship.
This idea of like I'm supposedto protect and provide for my
daughter.
That's kind of gone away.
Girls are going to do what theywant.
They're teenagers.
(44:08):
They're going to, you know,boys are going to sow wild oats
and do that.
It's like no biblical societyis not supposed to look like
that and husbands and wives aresupposed to be deeply involved
in the potential relationshipsthat are going to happen with
their kids and unfortunatelywe're not.
We don't care about it, we justlet it go.
I do want to say this, cause Icause I didn't get into it and I
think it's important.
(44:30):
There are verses in portions infirst Corinthians and really
that have to do with abandonment.
Yeah, first Peter talks abouthey, if you're like, if your
husband's a non-believer, youshould win him over with your
good behavior.
But if he abandons you, if he'sleaving or, I would even say it
this way, if he is physicallyabusing you, your children are
(44:55):
in danger.
Man, get help, get out of thereas soon as you possibly can.
Go to a church, go to lawenforcement, go to boat,
whatever you got to do, but getout of that position, get some
help.
And I would say, if that personis not pursuing treating you
better, doing the right things,and is just avoiding and leaving
, then you're okay to stay whereyou're at Um now, obviously, if
(45:17):
that guy can get his craptogether and get his life right
and get there great.
But two scenarios here.
One if you're in danger, leaveand you're under grounds to
leave, would I say you'redivorced immediately.
No, would I say you should tryto work through that and get to
a better place yes.
Does he need some help?
Yes.
Should you stay in a safe placetill that help is in place and
he's doing better?
Yes.
(45:39):
If you were abandoned, though,if somebody is an unbeliever and
walks out on you, the Bible issaying you don't have to go
after them.
If you love Jesus and theydon't, and they go the way of
the world and you're still here,you're not required to go chase
that person down.
However, I don't know that thatreleases you to marry someone
(45:59):
else.
Now, a lot of people would sayin that case, you're good to
remarry, and I think a lot ofpeople have, and I think there's
grace there for people thathave, but I do.
I don't know that the Bible issaying it's a good idea for you
to go marry somebody else.
In the event that that'shappened, I think.
I think at that point you mightneed to rely on some other
people to be spiritual heads andspiritual influence and
(46:22):
protection in your family.
Normally in Israelite society,this would be your father.
Your father is going to takeover for you.
He'll care for you and therewould be justice.
If somebody did that, you'reliterally going to kill that guy
so that that doesn't happenanymore.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
I watched this YouTube documentary last night
with my wife and stepson.
I don't know if you guys it wasrose something.
It was about this mormoninfluencer on tiktok, but her
kids were like super abused andshe was blaming it on satan and
the evil.
Kids are evil, so she wouldlike lock them in closets, duct
tape their wounds, put cayennepepper and honey on their wombs,
(47:01):
duct tape them shut.
And this kid escaped and wentto the neighbor's house and,
huge thing with the husband camein the picture.
They've been the police station.
It's like no, we've beenseparated for a year.
It's like what was that time?
You saw the kids, like whenthat happened.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
So like a year ago.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
That's all I was talking to my wife.
I'm like Separated or not, Iwouldn't just ignore my kids.
Like that, like that drove meabsolutely crazy and this whole
thing blew up.
She got life in prison and allthat nonsense.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
But yeah, that's.
That's horrifying dude, it wasjust weird, just go on yeah.
What kind of husband leavesthere Like I said, leaves their
family and what kind of?
What kind of wife leaves herhusband and kids?
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Yeah, they were Mormon too, but he was also like
I to listen to her and one daycoming back and being married
with her.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
To me that's a cop-out.
Yeah, to me that's a cop-out.
That's like, yeah, if you wantme to live apart from everybody
and just be in sin and not takecare of my kids and not see them
, that's what I'll do.
That's not heroism, man, that'sbeing a beta.
That just is.
I'm like I would be involvedwith the pastors.
I beta, that just is.
I'm like I would be involvedwith the pastors.
I would be doing everythingthat I could to fight for my
(48:08):
kids.
There's a snowball's chance inhell that somebody is going to
keep me from seeing and lovingand pouring into my children.
I mean, I'd die on that hilland I know sometimes there can
be some man.
I've been this person and thatperson.
There's some healthy distanceand spaces, I get that.
But yeah, I mean, jesus foughtfor his bride.
We need to fight for ours andthe church is supposed to love
(48:31):
and fight for a deep love forJesus.
And I would say this that lovedoesn't happen on its own.
That's an intentional thingthat you cultivate and you run
after and you make happen,because it's not something that
naturally just feels amazing andworks out for you.
Junk food happens naturally.
Getting fat happens naturally.
(48:51):
Making stupid mistakes happensnaturally.
Marriage, kids covenant, thattakes intention, that's.
That's a work of God, nice socool.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Well, hey, nick, thanks for being here, bud, yeah
dude, love hearing from you.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
I just want to encourage anybody who is
wrestling through this right now.
I'm just going to pray for youand then, guys again, get help
when you need, talk to a pastorif you need to, but no matter
what, fight for the institutionof marriage, fight for your own
marriage, fight for the peoplein your life and fight so that
you would never get to a placewhere this would be something
that you would actually have toconsider with any kind of
(49:27):
gravity.
Lord, we just pray that youwould bless people who are
wrestling through this.
God, I pray that your presenceand power would rest on them,
that you would protect them fromthe evil one, that you would
give them great strength throughyour word, great rest through
prayer, lord, and great insightto know how to fight for the
things that you say are valuableand matter.
Lord, we love you and we trustyou, and I just entrust these
(49:47):
people to you who are strugglingwith it, and we ask that you
would bless them, be with themand give them everything that
they need to be the people thatyou've called them to, in Jesus
name Amen.
Right on, guys, have a greatweek, see you all next time.
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