May 8, 2025 • 45 mins
tjbhpodcast@gmail.com
What does it mean to have "the Lord's favor" in your life? Is it about prosperity, success, and answered prayers? Or is there something deeper happening when we talk about divine blessing?
In this thought-provoking conversation, we challenge common misconceptions about God's favor by looking at biblical figures like Joseph, Moses, and Job who experienced God's presence through both triumph and suffering. We explore how Satan can offer counterfeit "blessings" that lead us away from God while creating the illusion of divine approval, and why the true mark of favor isn't in outcomes but in presence.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey guys, welcome to Navigate.
Justin.
What's up, dude?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
What is up?
Speaker 1 (00:08):
my brother.
We have a Mr Matt with us aswell, mj Fresh, how's it going,
mj Fresh?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I've never called him that before I've never been
called that before either.
Yeah, matthias, matthias.
That's also another name thatI've thought about in my head
calling him, but I haven't saidout loud yet.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I think Matthias sounds better than Matthew.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yeah, His pronouns are she her.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
You better not.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, dude, Iwill hurt you, he's not ready to
reveal those yet.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Okay, I'll hurt you on live recording I now have a
pen sticking out of my leg.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Now, matt, you've joined us on a few episodes now,
so glad you're here.
Thanks for being here.
Don't know how Justin keepsconvincing you to do this, but
I'm here for it.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I promise him a Hot Pocket.
It shows up every time.
It's so weird.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
It doesn't take much.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I never give him the Hot Pocket.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, which flavor though, if you say ham and
cheese get out, that's the bestflavor, dude get out.
No way, I don't know, bro, Ijust went for it.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I was like I don't think I've had a Hot.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Pocket in my life that is the worst one.
Is that a thing?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
People still order as Hot Pockets.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Order a Hot Pocket.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
The closest thing to a Hot Pocket that I've had is
that really delicious chickencheese loaf that they sell you
at Costco.
You know what I mean whenyou're eating it.
Twofer.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Costco food hacks.
That's a food hack.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's like four bucks too, I'm telling you you can
travel in time if you do that,but you better hope there's a
bathroom wherever you travel to.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Okay, I'm sorry, we're back.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
That's great.
Yeah, what do?
You got for us.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I'm sorry we're back, that's great.
What do you got for us?
I wanted to talk a little bitabout the Lord's favor, nice.
I feel like when I talk tocertain people you can kind of
tell when somebody has it Okay.
Is that wrong to like think ofit in that term, I guess?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
It kind of depends.
So like, let me ask you aquestion, tim.
Explain this a little bit more,elaborate more.
What do you mean by the Lord'sfavor?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
The Lord's.
It feels like somebody who hasbeen given a gift, accepts it,
and then things have beenprogressing for the betterment
of their own life.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
It just seems like it's working out, things are
working out better for us.
It's like that dude's just he'sgetting it.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, it's like I got this house and I promised to
give it to the Lord and now I'vegot this new raise and this new
job and then, like you knowwhat I mean, things just kind of
seem to progress for him.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, okay.
So there is definitely such athing in scripture as the
anointing of the spirit, likewith Joseph, like this classic
picture of this guy who is thisparadox, because everything goes
wrong for him and everythingkeeps going right.
Where it's going wrong, likehow is it that a guy who's you
(02:55):
know what I mean lied to andthrown into a pit by his
brothers who were planning tomurder him, gets sold into
slavery, does all the rightthings and everything goes wrong
for him and in that process itseems like everything he touches
continues to work.
You know, there's that kind ofanointing where we're like okay,
it keeps saying in there, godwas with him and I'm going to
come back to that in a secondAll right.
(03:16):
But there is also this likeweird satanic blessing and it's
the wrong way to put it, but I'msaying it this way just to kind
of explain it to people where Ithink, if you are serving Satan
, I think there's a type of,let's say, advantage that I
(03:36):
think the darkness will give youin certain circumstances, Like
the whole.
You know Satan taking Jesus tothe mountaintop and is like I'll
give you all of this if youjust bow your knee to me, Just
kneel to me.
I actually think he was allowedto.
Yeah, I actually think itimplies at some level that he
had the ability to give to whohe wanted some of these kingdoms
(04:00):
and some of these places.
Now we could get into some ofthe theology around geography
and things like that.
I'm not trying to go too deepinto the weeds here, but it
seems to me that there arepeople who are empowered by
demonic forces, who can alsohave a type of, let's say, edge
to what they do, the jobs theyget, how far ahead they get.
(04:21):
And I wouldn't want to conflatethat with blessing from God,
because somebody might be like,oh, it's all working out for me.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Clearly, god must be okay with what I'm doing.
You've talked about this, butcalled it the wrath of God as
well, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,kind of the same thing here.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I mean it really.
If you're serving, I think,satan and running the opposite
direction, I think you couldfind everything working out for
you.
I really think you could, andit wouldn't at all be what you
actually wanted.
It would be the wrong directionentirely.
Matt thoughts on this.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah, and it is kind of tricky right, and I think I
talked about this the first timethat we were on the show
talking about new age stuff andhow that kind of works.
But there is ways to thatpeople end up in some sort of a
partnership?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Are we talking about blood magic today?
What are we talking about?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I mean, I guess we're kind of getting there with this
area, but there are ways thatpeople, whether whatever their
ambitions are, that they canpartner with something in the
spiritual, and they may or maynot be consciously aware of that
.
I think as Christians we havethe ability to like discern that
from the Holy Spirit.
Hey, that's actually wicked.
Oh, this is actually God.
Right, that's the uniqueability of a Christian to be
(05:29):
able to do that.
But people who just kind of dothe worldly thing will end up in
certain avenues and certainpaths where it's like, wow, this
is awesome.
All of a sudden I got thisperfect job.
I just got out of thissituation into this situation
and it seems to be working outgreat.
And ultimately just got out ofthis situation, into this
situation and it seems to beworking out great.
And ultimately what's happeningis that the enemy is using that
(05:49):
person for their agenda and itseems and feels like it's
something real good for them inthe time and all it reminds me
of I'm not sure if you guys haveheard of this short story or
not it's called the monkey's pawI brought this up on a podcast,
did you a few long time ago?
yeah, the monkey's paw.
For any listener who's notaware of it, it's a horror short
story WW Jacobs is the name ofthe author and essentially what
(06:10):
happens is that a father getsthis monkey's paw that has three
fingers held up and you canmake a wish off of it.
And the problem with it is thatyou get what you want, but
maybe not how you want it.
Not how you want it, and if youare ultimately partnering with
the wrong things to be able toachieve your end goals, you will
end up in a position whereyou're compromised.
(06:31):
At the end of it, you haveshort-term gain for a long-term
judgment from the Lordultimately yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
How do you prevent that then, as a believer, as a
Christian, when you see God'sfavor in someone's life?
So I mean I can't say all goodthings are from the devil, right
?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Well, this is the picture that I wanted to boil it
down to.
There are these verses thatpeople misunderstand in
Scripture all the time.
Where it talks about like aclassic one is Psalm 51.
Take not your presence from me.
Okay, god is omnipresent.
What do you mean, david?
(07:07):
What do you mean take your?
He literally is everywhere.
His presence can't go away.
Or he'll say things in thePsalms like if I arise on the
wings of dawn, there you are.
If I make my bed in Sheol,there you are.
Where can I go from yourpresence?
Okay, well, what gives?
What is he getting at?
Or why does it make the pointso often in Scripture where it
says with Joseph and the Lordwas with him.
(07:29):
Right, like, of course, god waswith him.
He's with all of us, he'severywhere.
There is this clear, ongoing,consistent connection in
Scripture with the presence ofGod and his blessing in
scripture, with the presence ofGod and his blessing and the way
that the Bible tends tocommunicate blessing is like his
(07:50):
presence is with them, and whenhis presence is not with them,
it denotes that there's a lackof blessing, like it will
literally say at certain parts,and the spirit of God left him,
like it just said, like pulledoff, like with King Saul, like
you're done, spirit of God.
Nope, I'm not with you anymore.
My presence isn't with you.
And we're not talking aboutGod's immutable characteristics
(08:11):
changing.
And a lot of people want to dothis.
They're like see, he's notomnipresent.
See, now we're all open theists.
Don't be freaking weird.
The Bible is trying tocommunicate that that God's
presence symbolizes rest andblessing and his goodness, like
some simple places to go, exodus33,.
My presence will go with youand I will give you rest.
(08:33):
Okay, so this promise here isthat God's presence literally
brings rest and peace to hispeople.
When I'm with you, you havethese things.
The Lord is my shepherd.
I shall not want who makes melie down in green pastures.
He leads me besides.
So what is he talking about?
When God's presence is with me,like everything is going the
way that it's supposed to, andeven when it's not exactly what
(08:55):
I'm hoping for, god's with meand he's in that.
And then you have verses theother direction, when it's
talking about people in hell,like in 1 Thessalonians I think
it's chapter 5, he talks aboutpeople being away from the
presence of God, who are likebeing destroyed.
They're sentenced todestruction.
But in Revelation it says thatthey're burning in hell in the
(09:16):
presence of the Lamb.
Okay, so we know that God isthere.
Why is it saying in one versehe's there and in another verse
he's not there?
Well, because there'sconnection between the presence
of God and the blessing of God.
So what is it ultimately sayingin this text?
People who are under God's wrath.
It's not that he's not withthem, it's that his blessing
(09:37):
doesn't go with him.
His manifest presence thatbrings joy and hope and all the
amazing grace that God gives tous as those he loves, who are
walking in obedience with them,receive the people who are not
walking that direction, althoughhis presence is still with them
.
In a different way, it saysthat God's wrath abides on them,
(09:58):
which is to say, I will neverbe rid of God, but it will not
be his presence that goes withme.
So whenever we talk about God'sblessing on somebody's life,
what I want you to think aboutis God's presence in my life.
And so when we're pursuingblessing, we shouldn't be
thinking about an outcome, weshould be thinking about the
(10:19):
person.
If I want blessing, then what Iactually want is to pursue
God's presence.
See, because the Bible isactually saying those are the
same thing.
When I have found the presenceof God, I'm actually receiving
blessing from God.
But if I'm just pursuingblessing, well, I can actually
get that from a demon.
I can actually find that fromSatan.
This is why Jesus in the youknow, hey, in his temptation
(10:42):
right Turn these stones to bread, yeah, satan could do that for
you, that's an outcome?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Actually, I have that question for you, matt.
When you did with all theoccult stuff, did you have
things happen to you that cameoff as, like this is a blessing?
This is why I'm continuing todo this, more so than when you
were a Christian.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah, I mean, you get confirmations one way or the
other and it's basically like acarrot that you can never reach.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You just are constantly reaching out to grab
it.
You're like, oh, almost had it.
It's like that old commercialwith the dollar bill and the old
man oh you have to be quickerthan that.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
It's a lot like that, though, and people are reaching
out for it, and I think whatyou hit on, justin, is really,
really important.
It's how are we defining whatfavor is and how are we defining
what blessing is?
Because, ultimately, like favorwhere we started is God's
acceptance of you in hispresence, based off of your
understanding and pursuing him,and pursuing his preset and
(11:37):
doing what we are able to do inobedience to him.
And I think about that because,like Genesis 6, 8, noah found
favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Well, if you really think aboutthat, because, like Genesis 6,
8, noah found favor in the eyesof the Lord Well, if you really
think about Noah's like path andtrajectory, like that, he
probably had a really tough life.
The fact that he preached for120 years into the most
perverted culture that you couldimagine probably even worse
(11:58):
than what we have today and heonly managed to save his family
members, which is like what?
Not a lot of people, comparedto the amount of time that he
put into it, and then you havetotal destruction upon the earth
.
He stuck on the ark for a longtime with nothing but his family
and animals, and like, doesthat look like favor Right?
Like probably not in the moment, but it was favor.
(12:21):
It was favor because the Lordwas with him moment, but it was
favor.
It was favor because the Lordwas with him.
It was favor because the Lordsustained him and brought him
through that horrible likedestruction, that terrible
destruction of the of the world.
Um, so I think that there's adefinition problem.
Sometimes what we want as favoris probably different than what
the Lord has for us as favor,and we sometimes let the world
(12:44):
define what that means.
So, like man, favor would looklike I just got a new BMW.
Favor would look like I justgot a huge promotion.
Favor would look like I justwas able to buy a huge house.
That's not necessarily favor.
Sometimes those things areactually curses to people.
Like, hey, you just got a greathouse, somehow, you got a loan
(13:04):
for it and now you're underwater.
Now your payments are just.
Right Now you're losing it, butlike, ultimately, the pursuit of
the Lord is what brings that toyou.
You brought up.
Who was it?
What am I thinking of?
I don't know.
It's fine.
There's plenty of examples ofpeople throughout scripture
where it does not look like anideal situation.
(13:26):
Yeah, joseph went through somany trials and so many problems
, but the Lord was with him andthere was favor upon him to be
able to deliver people andultimately, favor results in
glorifying the Lord and the Lordbeing glorified more.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Sure, I think this is a natural response.
But I mean, we've all hadmoments in life where we just
get our teeth kicked inconstantly, Right, and then it's
that moment.
What am I doing wrong?
Like why, is God not with thisanymore?
Like what am I?
What do I need to change?
What do I need to figure out?
Cause it always seems like if Icould just figure out the right
answer, then God's going tocome back.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, Do you ever think Moses was just in?
Then God's going to come back.
Do you ever think Moses wasjust on the backside of the
desert?
Just like you know, I justhaven't cracked the code and one
of these days I'm going tofigure it out.
And then you know, 40 yearsafter that, he's like.
You know, if I could just crackthe code, maybe I'd finally get
out of this desert again.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I feel like Moses is like I wish I'd never became a
shepherd, I think.
I just think God's favor.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I did not hide good enough.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yeah, I just think God's favor means walking in his
plan, where his presence is.
I mean and he's thepersonification of this, the
quintessential verse thatexpresses this is if what Moses
said if you don't go with us,don't take us up from here yeah,
what he's saying.
I don't want to be where yourpresence isn't.
If your presence isn't goingwith us, then I don't have your
(14:46):
blessing, I'm not with you andI'm not going that direction.
Which tells me this Moses foundcomfort and peace in God alone.
He realized that thedestination of getting to the
promised land was not worth itif God's presence wasn't
actually there, and this is thething that I've brought up in
the past before.
(15:07):
But picture heaven eating thefruits that you haven't even
imagined yet.
You know what I mean that Godhas come up with, and hanging
out with the friends that youlove, that you miss so dearly,
or family members, or you know,maybe that weird dog that I
don't believe is in heaven, butyou do.
You know whatever that might be.
(15:27):
And maybe you, maybe you havethe ability to fly, maybe you,
maybe you will never feelexhausted, ever again.
None of those things exist ifJesus is not there, because he
is the substance of every singlegood thing.
Imagine, imagine, like thispicture of oh man, and I'm
(15:47):
trying to think of the story.
There's all these stories, likemythic stories, where somebody
tries to bring somebody backfrom the dead and they find that
it's not the person that theylove because their essence is
gone the monkey's bum, you knowwhat I mean?
Yeah, yeah, very similar Likethis.
This mythos goes beyond onestory.
It's like a constant thing infables.
I did things the wrong way andthe outcome that I got was very
(16:10):
different, even though what Isaid I was going to get is
standing in front of me.
Honestly, tim, what's the moviethat we love with Brennan
Fraser?
Is that his name?
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Tarzan oh, bedazzled, bedazzled, that's what I was
thinking of.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You know what I mean.
Every time he gets the thinganswered he's like this is not,
yeah, it's just, it's ruined.
It's ruined.
And as we just process that, Ijust I think we need to realize
that being where the presence ofGod is, that's where the joy is
, that's where the joy is,that's where the hope is.
(16:42):
And if we're focusing on ourcircumstances, we'll start to
hate the presence of God, whichis such a weird thing to think
about.
But like, God is with me rightnow, he's walking with me, he's
doing this stuff and I can begrowing in hatred and bitterness
.
And if you're like that, can't,you can't be in the presence of
God and experience that.
Well, say that to Lucifer, okay.
Or let's go a step farther, saythat to Judas, right.
(17:05):
Who is literally in thepresence of Jesus, hanging out,
experiencing miracles.
We're all like how did thathappen to you, bro?
How are you seeing the miracleof the fish and the loaves?
How are you seeing lepers gethealed?
How is all this happening?
And then you are gettingembittered and frustrated and
(17:27):
angry the whole time.
Well, because his innerdialogue sounded more like this
I'm sick of sleeping outside,I'm sick of just eating bare
minimum.
I'm sick of being attacked bythese Pharisees all the time.
I'm sick of Jesus not doingmore to bring in his kingdom and
usher it in sooner.
I'm sick of not getting morerespect from the society around
(17:49):
us for the things that I've done.
I'm sick of not being noticedamong the 12 for all the things
that I'm taking care of.
I'm sick of working off thesescraps.
I deserve a little bit morefrom the money box.
You can be actively angry at Godand searching for outcomes and
wanting more when you're in thevery presence of Jesus himself,
(18:09):
who is the fulfillment of thosethings, if you're not paying
attention to what it actuallymeans in that moment.
And so many people are justblind.
Like God is here, he's with you, he's caring for you, he loves
you and you are one of thesepeople that again 1
Thessalonians talks about, whoare just.
(18:29):
You're just.
The God of this age has blindedyou.
You have flirted withbitterness and frustration and
irritation so long that youcould be in the very presence of
God and be angry and bitter andirritated because you can't see
any of it.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, you know, I get this paralysis analysis thing
with God sometimes of God, Iwant your favor, so I'm going to
read more, pray more, just givea checklist mentality to it.
But that, I find, honestly,increases more bitterness
because I'm not seeing theresults.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I'm not seeing the outcomes.
Give me the outcome.
God's like, do you want to hangout with me?
I'm right here, right, right,yeah, give me the thing.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yeah, and it's funny too, because when we pray for
certain things that maybe theLord's put on your heart as
something that you actuallyreally truly desire, he's giving
you the desires of your heart.
You take it to your prayercloset and you're like, okay,
lord, give this to me, I wantthis, I want to partner with you
in this.
And then all of a sudden itseems like your plan for how you
get there is totallydisregarded and like the
(19:31):
timeline's different.
The friendships won andfriendships lost all of a sudden
become a different thing and itsends you on this path.
And I think that's tempting forthe Christian to be like, well,
where is God in this?
Because you said, you saidyou'd give me this, you said you
were going to take care of it,but you were actually saying, on
my terms, right?
And I think the root questionends up becoming to the
(19:53):
Christian who is God?
Who's God to you?
And it touches onto hissovereignty and like is he
actually?
Do you actually confess him tobe fully sovereign over your
life, over the circumstances ofthe world as it is?
And my heart goes out to peoplelike who face horrible
tragedies.
It's tough to find God in thecancer diagnosis.
It's tough to find God in thehurricane aftermath, but the
(20:16):
people who make it through that,and they crucify the flesh and
they instead turn their eyes toChrist, are the ones that is
sustained by him and his favoris poured out immeasurably to
them.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Let me ask you guys, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Oh, I was just going to say this.
Heart posture is really clearlyseen in the prophet Elijah, who
is at his wits end, angry thathe's not seeing revival in the
nation.
And God asked him the questionwhat are you doing here, elijah?
His response I've been veryjealous for the Lord, the God of
hosts, for the sons of Israelhave forsaken your covenant,
torn down your altars, killedyour prophets with the sword,
(20:52):
and I alone am left and theyseek my life to take it away.
Okay, this is the guy who justslaughtered 900 false prophets,
called down fire from heaven andjust showed everybody, in the
face of everyone, that Yahweh isthe true God.
Fed by ravens about 40 days agofrom this, he was eating
(21:12):
pancakes cooked on a hot stonemade by an angel of God for him,
of God for him, and he can'tsee God's blessing or provision
because he's too focused on whatGod hasn't done for him or the
things he thought he was goingto accomplish.
And I wanted to make a noteabout this before we get too far
off this topic For anyonethat's read Until we have Faces,
(21:35):
I'm just going to continue torecommend it because I think
it's a fabulous book.
Is that CS Lewis?
Yeah, it's Lewis' last book.
It's a retelling of the Greekmythological story of Cupid and
Psyche.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
All right, yeah, the Greek one.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It's really good.
There's this story about thisyoung girl who, basically, is
taken and married by a god andthis god takes her away to this
palace, this beautiful place.
It's fantastic and the onlyrule is she's not allowed to
look at his face.
Like that's the one rule You'renot allowed to look at his face
(22:09):
, but look what he's providedfor us.
It's this amazing thing.
And this girl basicallyconvinces this girl to do the
thing that she's not supposed todo, in bitterness and
frustration, because ultimately,she's mad that this girl is
married to this god and that shedoesn't get all of her time and
affection.
(22:31):
This the protagonist if youcould call her that in the story
.
She's not.
She's writing a book, basically, which is a polemic against the
gods, to tell them everythingthat they've done wrong and how
horrible they've done and howthey've ruined her life.
And in this instance, sheallows her bitterness to
(22:59):
convince her sister, who hasthis amazing setup with this
prince who's taking care of herand loves her and has provided
all this stuff.
She convinces her to sinagainst him and ends up.
She ends up losing her abilityto stay married to this God you
know what I mean and has toleave and go wander the earth by
herself, and I love this storyfor a lot of reasons.
There's like every fairy taleis in this tale, but ultimately,
what I want to focus on is theperson who can't see the present
(23:21):
.
Oh, I forgot to mention thisthe castle in this tale.
But ultimately, what I want tofocus on is the person who can't
see the present.
Oh, I forgot to mention this.
The castle in this is invisible.
She can see that this girl'spsyche looks healthy and
beautiful and vibrant morevibrant than she's ever been but
she can't see it.
She can't see the castle.
And bitter people who can't seethe presence of God uh, try to
convince other people of howawful and terrible God is.
(23:42):
That if you just did what hetold you not to do, then you
would see how horrible he is.
It's the fruit in the garden.
If you just do the thing thathe told you not to do, then
you'll see.
It's what Satan says to God.
If you just do this to him,then you'll see.
This is the guy who's alwaysaccusing people to try to get
(24:03):
them, bait them, into doingsomething that they shouldn't do
.
You know what I mean To get thething or the outcome that he
wants.
That is actually destructionand something awful, and many
people like Judas are sittingaround bad talking, frustrated,
growing bitterness and actuallystealing from other people who
are enjoying the presence of God, the ability to see the
(24:24):
presence of God, by getting themto indulge in that wicked,
malicious, unforgiving, bitterheart towards God.
And so you need to be reallycareful, because people who
can't see the blessing of Godwill try to convince you that
you can't see it either.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
And I would even tell you too, it's a muscle that the
Christian needs to develop,especially depending on people's
testimony.
People can come into a, theycan become regenerated, they can
become a Christian, and theycan still carry with them the
really, really pessimisticoutlook on life.
Sure, and they carry that withthem.
Then, all of a sudden, like allthe things are going wrong
according to their mind andtheir judgment of things,
(25:01):
because, oh well, I'm aChristian and all of a sudden my
life just became harder, likewhy did that happen?
And they aren't quitecatechized yet to be able to
think through, like Romans 8, 28, that God is working out all
things for the good of those wholove him, for ultimately.
So the question then becomesright, like if we are looking
for favor from the Lord, ifwe're trying to be in that area
(25:24):
of things, I think that twothings come to mind.
Number one is that put down ourown presuppositions about what
that means.
Sure, like it's completelydifferent.
God's ways are higher than oursand he knows way better than us
about how to glorify himselfthrough what we're doing, about
how to glorify himself throughwhat we're doing.
And the second thing that weneed to understand is why does
favor rest upon some people andnot rest upon others.
(25:47):
And ultimately it's due to thefact that God's providence is
something that is presented topeople for the expansion of the
kingdom.
It's presented to people forthe health and the good of his
church.
Right, all of the things thathe's doing is for his church and
to glorify him and, asChristians, for us to be able to
(26:09):
partner with God, so to speak,is more along the lines of
saying just like God, you havecontrol, like you're in this.
And then that's where you startto see okay, well, if the goal
is expansion of your kingdom, ifthe goal is the good of your
church and to take care of yourchurch if I can trust Romans 8,
28, then everything else is kindof inconsequential.
(26:29):
We all know that we'll gothrough hard times and better
times, and everybody needs tounderstand that, that there's
going to be different seasonsfor everybody.
And you brought up Job.
Job's a great example of that.
Man was faithful Like he didaccording to the scriptures.
He really did nothing wrong andhe got slapped up the entire
book of Job pretty much, and hedid not so much as posture
(26:55):
himself to make himself thejudge of his own situation.
He did not posture himself in away of saying like, well, this
is good, this is bad, butinstead his friends all came to
him and said this is how youjudge this.
Well, that wasn't at all whatGod was saying.
That wasn't at all what God'sreasoning behind that was.
Now did Job have questions?
(27:16):
Absolutely, and the funny partabout that is how God answered
Job.
He, he didn't.
He, he's like god.
Why is everything so hard?
And you know what he did.
He showed him how big he was ohgod said shut up.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
He says I am god you are not.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Yeah, do you?
Do you know what thefoundations of the earth look
like?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
you ever made a hippopotamus loser like, do you?
Speaker 3 (27:37):
know how difficult that was to get through approval
processes with that animal morelike you know how difficult
that was to get through approvalprocesses with that animal More
like you know how easy it wasfor me yeah.
And ultimately, when confrontedwith who God is and his
character, Job shrunk back andsaid you know what?
You're right.
And then what happened at theend of Job?
(27:58):
Blessing, Blessing.
We forget about that Ten times,right, we forget about that.
Everything that he lost, theLord restored to him and
everything that happened to himwas for it to be documented,
written down, put into ourscriptures for us to be able to
read for encouragement.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
And just to follow the narrative of what we've been
talking about.
Basically the story of Job ishey, if you take away all the
outcomes that the person ishoping for, satan tells God well
, he'll definitely stop seeingyour presence and stop following
you.
Then he's more interested inthe outcome than you.
And the story of Job is Jobwrestling the entire time to
(28:37):
hold on to God and to him, asopposed to his circumstances,
and in that getting to see thefullness of that blessing
restored 10 times over.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I like that.
Yeah, if this is the outcome offollowing God, then so be it
right.
Yes, kind of that mindset, thatis it.
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
It is.
Every.
Every instance of difficulty inyour personal life is a greater
opportunity to tighten yourgrip on what actually matters
and loosen your grip on theoutcome that you think you need.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, matt, you brought up control and we did
one on Ecclesiastes a coupleweeks back, jesse, yeah, and we
didn't get to this part, but Ilearned this with Ecclesiastes
when he's talking aboutmeaningless, how it's actually
Hebrew for hevel yeah.
Which means smoke and vapor.
So he's not calling lifemeaningless.
Hebrew for hevel, which meanssmoke and vapor.
So he's not calling lifemeaningless.
He's saying your life is like asmoke.
You cannot grasp it.
(29:24):
Like it's going to go whereit's going to go, you know.
Trust God At the end of thatbook.
Just trust God.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Well, the connection to that right is John, chapter 3
.
Yeah, the spirit, or the wind,blows where it wants to.
Yeah, and if you are followingthe spirit, what does that say
about your vapid existence?
It's going to be here and thereand God's going to take you
places, and people that followthe wind uh, are are vapor.
That should write like yeah,I'm going, I'm going with him,
(29:52):
but have you ever seen a smoke?
Try to fight against the wind.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
That's an awkward that doesn't make any sense,
yeah, yeah, even nature itself,you know, is it a wrong
mentality to all right?
I want God's favor, so I'mgoing to start, I'm going to
read the Bible.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
For the favor, I'm going to go to church for the
favor, I'm going to tithe forthe blessing, so I?
I think that that's a.
The short answer is probablyyes, right, but at the same time
, there is something to be saidabout building spiritual habits
so that you get there, right.
It sounds more like prosperity,I guess.
Well, there's a concept of eatuntil you're hungry, right, you
may have to discipline yourselfenough to be able to get to the
point where, all of a sudden,you're doing this not because of
(30:34):
the fact that you're trying toget something from God, but
rather your heart starts toactually fall in love with who
God is.
And that is an okay startingplace for some people.
But so long as they don't landthere and end there, and they
continue to have gooddiscipleship and they're
attending the church that theLord has told them to attend,
and learning under good men, orpotentially, if you're a lady,
learning under a spiritual woman, that's more, I guess, advanced
(30:57):
in the Christian faith than youare, if you're doing those
things, I think that most ofthat will kind of work itself
out.
But I mean, I think that a lotof people would probably say,
well, I know, I'm supposed to dothis, and then you start to
like oh, I do this because Ilove God Right.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And I think that's, I guess, what I'm kind of getting
at is I want the works or thefruits right to be an overflow
of my love for God.
But, man, it's hard, Like Idon't want to read all the time,
I don't want to pray all thetime, I don't want to worship
all the time.
You know what I mean.
So forcing myself to do thosethings like is this counting?
Can I throw something in here?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, I think about this immediately in the context
of marriage.
I just do look, I love my wife.
I have five children.
I'm trying to think there'sthis pastor, he has this joke.
He's like I don't have fivekids because I love kids.
I have five kids because I lovemy wife.
You know, always make me laugh.
It's so funny.
But here's the deal you couldsay.
(31:55):
You could say that all thethings that I'm doing at home
are ultimately to spend uniquetime with my wife.
Right, that's really not thecase.
But am I working my game allday as well?
You bet I am.
I think that's the tension is,ultimately, I want to do
(32:15):
something that's going to helpserve the outcome.
To do something that's going tohelp serve the outcome and in
that there's also great joy andadventure and frustration and
all the things that come alongwith like relationship.
So if you make it one or theother, you either end up in
legalism or antinomianism.
But the Christian faith is thistension of I love my wife, I
(32:40):
want to stay married and alsoI'm going to work for the
benefit and the things thathelped me fall more in love with
you in that process, which arethrough these small steps along
the way.
So this great picture ofcovenantal love and also
sanctification is this processof being married but also
working your game because youwant to stay married, and I do
(33:03):
think that's it.
So if I'm reading the Bible andI'm worshiping, is that
ultimately because I just wantGod to give me a house?
No, but I'd love a house.
Right?
If I don't get the house, am Ifalling out of love with Jesus?
No, I love Jesus.
This is what I'm doing.
But I'll tell you what's goingto happen If I get that house
I'm going to fill it with peoplewho don't know Jesus yet or
(33:25):
other worshipers of God, and I'mgoing to use this house for
God's glory and for what we'regoing to do.
Is that a good thing?
Yes, because it's part of theprocess and ultimately, to
fulfill that relationship andhelp continue to grow the
process of loving God's presence.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah, and I.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
God takes those things from you If you start to
elevate the gift above the giverright.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
That's such a good word because there's something
that I tell people all the timeis that when we're finally
standing in front of Jesus andwe're kind of revealed
everything that he has beendoing and orchestrating in our
lives, I firmly believe we'llprobably thank him more for the
no's in our lives than the yes,that for the things that he
closed the door on in our lives,then the things that he opened
the doors in our lives.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, and know this we learn far more from pain than
we ever do from victory.
Guys, yep, you just do.
Our moments of joy arefantastic and I appreciate them,
and our hilltops are fantasticand I love them and I want them.
But the times where I'mactually growing and becoming
something more is when you're inthe prison with Joseph and
(34:29):
you're actually finding thepresence of God with you there,
and I would argue those samethings are true in your marriage
and with your kids as well.
True, in your marriage and withyour kids as well.
It's the low, frustrating pointsthat actually define your
strength, because you had tofind that together and work at
that together, not the momentswhen everything's working out
together.
This is why I always joke aboutstupid shows like the Bachelor
(34:50):
or whatever it's like.
Yeah, take them all out oftheir actual work environment,
out of all the struggle theymight deal with, and put them on
a freaking island togetherwhere everyone cooks for them,
everyone cleans for them andeverything is perfect.
And then take them out of thatenvironment after they think
they found the one and put themin an actual difficult
environment and let's see how itworks out.
(35:10):
I can't imagine the statisticsof people staying together on
that show are very high.
I just I don't think.
I don't think so because it'snot the moments of victory that
forge, you know, beauty andgreatness and connection.
It's the moments of strugglethat do those things.
And if you're always avoidingthat, you're always looking just
for outcomes, it's not going togo well.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
You reminded me of uh , was it Psalm?
Oh man, two, three, you knowyou leave me by still waters
through the valley of the shadowof death.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
It was 23.
23,.
I was way up.
Well, I got two and a three.
You were in the Psalms.
I was there, you were in thePsalms.
It was great.
And you didn't say book Rightthe Psalms.
You said the right number, joeBiden.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
You remind me of that Psalm because for the longest
time I thought that go throughthe valley, get to the mountain
right.
And then you go through thevalley, get to the mountain.
We're talking about the hillsand stuff.
But now I read that and I'mlike no, you find the valley in
the well, you find the greenpastures in that valley.
(36:09):
Yeah, you have to find thepasture within that valley of
death.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, the mountaintop that's how you get there Is the
valley sometimes.
Yeah, you know what I mean, andthe valley is the mountaintop.
It's your perspective.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Is God with me or is he not with me?
It's like the idea of, like Isaid, this is like a
step-by-step thing or something,but it's all one thing.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
The valley, the mountain.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
The pastures is all in there.
You just got to find thepasture with God.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
It's what made Peter a retard.
Like, let me explain this, thisto you.
I'm not trying to be edgy here.
Well, maybe I am a little.
Peter and John are gettingwhipped and beaten and they're
coming out singing songs becausethey're like man, we're getting
to do what Jesus did.
Y'all are crazy.
Or Paul, he's chained to peoplein prison and he's just singing
(36:54):
hymns in the middle of thenight.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Stoned once and then walked back into the city.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
It creates the behavior of a crazy person in
you, because, instead of beingthe person, like Judas, who's in
the presence of God and onlyfocusing on all the outcomes he
doesn't have, you can be theopposite of that, where you can
be the person who's in all theoutcomes you don't have, but so
enamored by the presence of Godthat you're just invulnerable to
it, and I think that is thethat's.
(37:22):
The goal, you know, is tobecome that person who worships
an immovable God and, because ofthat, becomes an immovable
person, and that's a really goodthing that we would want to
work on together.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
But yeah, and by the way, I looked it up on how many
couples stay together afterdating shows and stuff like that
.
So that's like married at firstsight, the Bachelor, all these
other ones 80 to 95% of couplesfrom dating shows end up
breaking up post-show.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Because you end up synthetic right.
You synthetically look at theworld, and I think that this is
a good metaphor for how weactually can view success.
Sometimes it's like, great, wehad this awesome thing, but
where are you actually groundedin?
Where are you actually rootedin and, actually, more
importantly, what's yourmotivations?
Speaker 1 (38:09):
right.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
I think that there is something to be said where,
like, there's some altruism thatthe Christians should lean into
to some degree.
It's like, why do we do what wedo for the sake of the Lord
alone, like we don't do it forhim to be able to fill our bank
account?
We don't, you know, buy the bighome in order to say, well,
look at my home.
Everything that we have and aregiven are instruments and tools
(38:29):
that the Lord has given us in aspecific way, in a specific
time, for us to be able to servehim.
So when, justin, you weresaying that, wow, if I got a big
home, do you know what I'd bedoing?
I'd be filling the home with awhole ton of people that to be
able to worship you and glorifyyou, lord, that's what I would
do.
That with, do with that house.
And I think that sometimes, like, we can say that and the Lord
(38:49):
says, okay, cool, well, let mesanctify you until you get to
that point, because I actuallyknow where your heart truly is.
And then we shake our fist atthe sky and we're like why is it
so hard?
Why do I not have the housethat I want yet?
And the reality is that if youwere given that, it would just
be like giving a loaded gun to atoddler.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Daddy won't buy me a car, right yeah, but we kind of
treat it like that.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
And, at the same time , there's things that the Lord
gives us that we desire, that wereally want to be involved in,
that we want to pursue, that wewant to have and, yes, I think
that in our hearts and in ourminds, we know that it's
supposed to be sanctified, givenas a sacrifice to the Lord, but
also keep in mind he can takeit away anytime, right.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, I totally agree with all that.
I think, just through thisprocess, this podcast, I really
think the thing to remember isultimately looking for blessing
and pursuing blessing should belooking for and pursuing the
presence of God, and there's atension there of desiring
outcomes that would help fulfilland amplify my love for the
(39:50):
presence of God.
David's whole life was apursuit of the presence of God.
Moses' whole life was a pursuitof the presence of God.
Even Christ comes down, becomesincarnate, is separated from
God and the worst moment for himever.
You know what I mean.
My God, my God, elo, elo lamasabachthani, my God, my God, why
have you forsaken me?
The worst thing that can happento you is that the presence of
(40:12):
God would not be with you in aparticular moment and our heart
cries.
Christians needs to be.
If you don't go with us, don'ttake us up from here, and if
that is your heart posture,whatever outcome you're sitting
in right now, christian, you getto be I'll say it again the
retard.
You're right.
Who is like?
Dude, everyone's like.
Why are you happy?
How are you surviving throughthis?
(40:34):
How is this working out?
Because I know God Right andhe's with me and I can make.
This is the God that makesgraves in the gardens right.
This is the God that makes thehighway that's called holiness.
This is the God that hasresurrection power and, no
matter what circumstance I findmyself in, I know I'm in his
presence and this prison, likeJoseph, is about to become mine
(40:57):
and I'm going to use it in areally cool way to bring about,
ultimately, the salvation oftons of other people.
This goes so far beyond me.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yeah, and I'd say with that mindset too, I think
as a Christian you could almostlook at almost all situations in
your life as a form of God'sfavor on you.
It may not appear like that atthe front end of it.
It may seem tough, but if youare truly abiding in the Lord
and understanding that, hey,trials and tribulations are a
grace from him, hey, the coolthings that he's giving you and
the things that are working outin your life, that's a grace
(41:26):
from him.
And all of that is to meld youand to make you and to sanctify
you into more and more hislikeness as your life grows,
goes on, so that you can glorifyhim all the more.
And that, at the root level, isfavor, even when it's like
you're rubbing off the roughedges of a piece of wood with
sandpaper, like that's God'sfavor, that's okay, and we need
(41:49):
to understand that as.
Thank you, sir.
May I have another?
Yeah, I mean again, have that.
If we are able to really trulysit as Christians and say you
know what?
I don't know why so-and-sopassed away in my life.
I don't know why a firecompletely destroyed my home.
I don't know why any of thishappens, but I know that God's
(42:11):
got a plan.
God is fully in control, god isabsolutely sovereign and I
guarantee you because, justinand Tim, you guys probably have
exact same type of testimonieswhere you go through something
so hard and then maybe yearslater you look back and you're
like, okay, I know exactly whatthe Lord was doing and I would
not change that for anything,because that has helped define
(42:33):
me and make me into who I am andto how I worship what I've
noticed with.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
that is when things are hard and struggling,
eventually life takes onmomentum because of those hard
and struggling and it's like, ohokay, this is great.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Matt, I was over here while you guys are so deep in
this and for some reason my headfloated way too.
Yeah, my pronouns would not beshe, her if I didn't go.
I'm sorry.
We'll call back to thebeginning of the episode.
You're 100% right.
You're 100% right and I havefaith.
Even.
I would even say for you guysthat are like man, I don't, I
look back and I don't know whyGod did this.
(43:08):
Hebrews 11 is one of my favoritepassages because it says hey, a
bunch of people didn't get tosee what you got to see.
They didn't get to.
Abraham got this promise.
He didn't get to see thefruition of that promise until
he was on the other side.
But I'm trusting God's presence, that I'm following him, and
one day, whether on this side ofthe grave or the next, I will
look back and not only will whatGod has done be perfect, it
(43:29):
will be seen by the saints tohave been perfect as well.
And my hope is in that, in thatone day, that great feeling of
justice and revelation and truth, and that man, what God has
done is marvelous.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
And it's total triumph, too right.
You look at it and it's likeman, the triumph of the Lord and
all of this.
And I just I guess one thingthat I would say for men,
especially if you're goingthrough some stuff just think
about this.
I think about this all the time.
It's winning without a fightactually feels like losing, yeah
, Like winning without a fightfeels inauthentic.
It feels like, did I actuallydeserve that?
(44:03):
Like, and I kind of think aboutlike Jake Paul versus Mike
Tyson.
It's like do you actually feelgood about that dude Like I?
Speaker 2 (44:09):
saw this meeting man.
Somebody was like.
He was like this Greenlandshark is 463 years old and
somebody was like better,callake paul, he's got another
fight yeah, but no, I mean, thelord puts us through this for a
reason.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
David would not be who he was if it wasn't for the
caves.
Yeah, you know, joseph wouldnot have been who he was if it
wasn't for the prison, and thelord delights in using people
who've just said yes to him,regardless of the circumstance.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Do you think that's what Joseph's brothers said to
him when they first find out?
Speaker 3 (44:47):
You're going to love it later.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
No, no, no, no no, they saw him and they had a hard
time recognizing him at first,and then they knew it was him
and they were like prisonchanged you.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
I just thought of like prison Mike.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
I'm from the office.
I'm prison.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Joseph.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
All right.
Well, this was a fun topic,guys.
Thank you both for being here,yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I'm going to pray for people real quick, Timmy.
Father, God, I pray for peopleto see you and enjoy your
presence.
Lord, I pray that for anybodythat is dealing with the spirit
of Joseph or Judas, Lord,dealing with that spirit that
wants to see all thefrustrations when you have set a
table for us in the presence ofour enemies, Lord, would you
(45:32):
just heal their damaged emotionsin this moment.
Give them eyes to see youclearly, ears to hear what it is
that you're saying, Lord, and agrip in their hand to hold
tightly to you through whateverthey're walking through.
Lord, we love you and we thankyou for your presence that is
with us, Lord, as we walk inunity with your spirit.
We pray in Jesus name, Amen.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Amen, cool.
Well, thanks for having me guys.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Thanks for coming back on everybody have a great
week, all right?
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Catch you all next time.
Hey guys, welcome to Navigate.
Justin.
What's up, dude?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
What is up?
Speaker 1 (00:08):
my brother.
We have a Mr Matt with us aswell, mj Fresh, how's it going,
mj Fresh?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I've never called him that before I've never been
called that before either.
Yeah, matthias, matthias.
That's also another name thatI've thought about in my head
calling him, but I haven't saidout loud yet.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I think Matthias sounds better than Matthew.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yeah, His pronouns are she her.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
You better not.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, dude, Iwill hurt you, he's not ready to
reveal those yet.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Okay, I'll hurt you on live recording I now have a
pen sticking out of my leg.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Now, matt, you've joined us on a few episodes now,
so glad you're here.
Thanks for being here.
Don't know how Justin keepsconvincing you to do this, but
I'm here for it.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I promise him a Hot Pocket.
It shows up every time.
It's so weird.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
It doesn't take much.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I never give him the Hot Pocket.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, which flavor though, if you say ham and
cheese get out, that's the bestflavor, dude get out.
No way, I don't know, bro, Ijust went for it.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I was like I don't think I've had a Hot.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Pocket in my life that is the worst one.
Is that a thing?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
People still order as Hot Pockets.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Order a Hot Pocket.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
The closest thing to a Hot Pocket that I've had is
that really delicious chickencheese loaf that they sell you
at Costco.
You know what I mean whenyou're eating it.
Twofer.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Costco food hacks.
That's a food hack.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's like four bucks too, I'm telling you you can
travel in time if you do that,but you better hope there's a
bathroom wherever you travel to.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Okay, I'm sorry, we're back.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
That's great.
Yeah, what do?
You got for us.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I'm sorry we're back, that's great.
What do you got for us?
I wanted to talk a little bitabout the Lord's favor, nice.
I feel like when I talk tocertain people you can kind of
tell when somebody has it Okay.
Is that wrong to like think ofit in that term, I guess?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
It kind of depends.
So like, let me ask you aquestion, tim.
Explain this a little bit more,elaborate more.
What do you mean by the Lord'sfavor?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
The Lord's.
It feels like somebody who hasbeen given a gift, accepts it,
and then things have beenprogressing for the betterment
of their own life.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
It just seems like it's working out, things are
working out better for us.
It's like that dude's just he'sgetting it.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, it's like I got this house and I promised to
give it to the Lord and now I'vegot this new raise and this new
job and then, like you knowwhat I mean, things just kind of
seem to progress for him.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, okay.
So there is definitely such athing in scripture as the
anointing of the spirit, likewith Joseph, like this classic
picture of this guy who is thisparadox, because everything goes
wrong for him and everythingkeeps going right.
Where it's going wrong, likehow is it that a guy who's you
(02:55):
know what I mean lied to andthrown into a pit by his
brothers who were planning tomurder him, gets sold into
slavery, does all the rightthings and everything goes wrong
for him and in that process itseems like everything he touches
continues to work.
You know, there's that kind ofanointing where we're like okay,
it keeps saying in there, godwas with him and I'm going to
come back to that in a secondAll right.
(03:16):
But there is also this likeweird satanic blessing and it's
the wrong way to put it, but I'msaying it this way just to kind
of explain it to people where Ithink, if you are serving Satan
, I think there's a type of,let's say, advantage that I
(03:36):
think the darkness will give youin certain circumstances, Like
the whole.
You know Satan taking Jesus tothe mountaintop and is like I'll
give you all of this if youjust bow your knee to me, Just
kneel to me.
I actually think he was allowedto.
Yeah, I actually think itimplies at some level that he
had the ability to give to whohe wanted some of these kingdoms
(04:00):
and some of these places.
Now we could get into some ofthe theology around geography
and things like that.
I'm not trying to go too deepinto the weeds here, but it
seems to me that there arepeople who are empowered by
demonic forces, who can alsohave a type of, let's say, edge
to what they do, the jobs theyget, how far ahead they get.
(04:21):
And I wouldn't want to conflatethat with blessing from God,
because somebody might be like,oh, it's all working out for me.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Clearly, god must be okay with what I'm doing.
You've talked about this, butcalled it the wrath of God as
well, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,kind of the same thing here.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I mean it really.
If you're serving, I think,satan and running the opposite
direction, I think you couldfind everything working out for
you.
I really think you could, andit wouldn't at all be what you
actually wanted.
It would be the wrong directionentirely.
Matt thoughts on this.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah, and it is kind of tricky right, and I think I
talked about this the first timethat we were on the show
talking about new age stuff andhow that kind of works.
But there is ways to thatpeople end up in some sort of a
partnership?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Are we talking about blood magic today?
What are we talking about?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I mean, I guess we're kind of getting there with this
area, but there are ways thatpeople, whether whatever their
ambitions are, that they canpartner with something in the
spiritual, and they may or maynot be consciously aware of that
.
I think as Christians we havethe ability to like discern that
from the Holy Spirit.
Hey, that's actually wicked.
Oh, this is actually God.
Right, that's the uniqueability of a Christian to be
(05:29):
able to do that.
But people who just kind of dothe worldly thing will end up in
certain avenues and certainpaths where it's like, wow, this
is awesome.
All of a sudden I got thisperfect job.
I just got out of thissituation into this situation
and it seems to be working outgreat.
And ultimately just got out ofthis situation, into this
situation and it seems to beworking out great.
And ultimately what's happeningis that the enemy is using that
(05:49):
person for their agenda and itseems and feels like it's
something real good for them inthe time and all it reminds me
of I'm not sure if you guys haveheard of this short story or
not it's called the monkey's pawI brought this up on a podcast,
did you a few long time ago?
yeah, the monkey's paw.
For any listener who's notaware of it, it's a horror short
story WW Jacobs is the name ofthe author and essentially what
(06:10):
happens is that a father getsthis monkey's paw that has three
fingers held up and you canmake a wish off of it.
And the problem with it is thatyou get what you want, but
maybe not how you want it.
Not how you want it, and if youare ultimately partnering with
the wrong things to be able toachieve your end goals, you will
end up in a position whereyou're compromised.
(06:31):
At the end of it, you haveshort-term gain for a long-term
judgment from the Lordultimately yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
How do you prevent that then, as a believer, as a
Christian, when you see God'sfavor in someone's life?
So I mean I can't say all goodthings are from the devil, right
?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Well, this is the picture that I wanted to boil it
down to.
There are these verses thatpeople misunderstand in
Scripture all the time.
Where it talks about like aclassic one is Psalm 51.
Take not your presence from me.
Okay, god is omnipresent.
What do you mean, david?
(07:07):
What do you mean take your?
He literally is everywhere.
His presence can't go away.
Or he'll say things in thePsalms like if I arise on the
wings of dawn, there you are.
If I make my bed in Sheol,there you are.
Where can I go from yourpresence?
Okay, well, what gives?
What is he getting at?
Or why does it make the pointso often in Scripture where it
says with Joseph and the Lordwas with him.
(07:29):
Right, like, of course, god waswith him.
He's with all of us, he'severywhere.
There is this clear, ongoing,consistent connection in
Scripture with the presence ofGod and his blessing in
scripture, with the presence ofGod and his blessing and the way
that the Bible tends tocommunicate blessing is like his
(07:50):
presence is with them, and whenhis presence is not with them,
it denotes that there's a lackof blessing, like it will
literally say at certain parts,and the spirit of God left him,
like it just said, like pulledoff, like with King Saul, like
you're done, spirit of God.
Nope, I'm not with you anymore.
My presence isn't with you.
And we're not talking aboutGod's immutable characteristics
(08:11):
changing.
And a lot of people want to dothis.
They're like see, he's notomnipresent.
See, now we're all open theists.
Don't be freaking weird.
The Bible is trying tocommunicate that that God's
presence symbolizes rest andblessing and his goodness, like
some simple places to go, exodus33,.
My presence will go with youand I will give you rest.
(08:33):
Okay, so this promise here isthat God's presence literally
brings rest and peace to hispeople.
When I'm with you, you havethese things.
The Lord is my shepherd.
I shall not want who makes melie down in green pastures.
He leads me besides.
So what is he talking about?
When God's presence is with me,like everything is going the
way that it's supposed to, andeven when it's not exactly what
(08:55):
I'm hoping for, god's with meand he's in that.
And then you have verses theother direction, when it's
talking about people in hell,like in 1 Thessalonians I think
it's chapter 5, he talks aboutpeople being away from the
presence of God, who are likebeing destroyed.
They're sentenced todestruction.
But in Revelation it says thatthey're burning in hell in the
(09:16):
presence of the Lamb.
Okay, so we know that God isthere.
Why is it saying in one versehe's there and in another verse
he's not there?
Well, because there'sconnection between the presence
of God and the blessing of God.
So what is it ultimately sayingin this text?
People who are under God's wrath.
It's not that he's not withthem, it's that his blessing
(09:37):
doesn't go with him.
His manifest presence thatbrings joy and hope and all the
amazing grace that God gives tous as those he loves, who are
walking in obedience with them,receive the people who are not
walking that direction, althoughhis presence is still with them
.
In a different way, it saysthat God's wrath abides on them,
(09:58):
which is to say, I will neverbe rid of God, but it will not
be his presence that goes withme.
So whenever we talk about God'sblessing on somebody's life,
what I want you to think aboutis God's presence in my life.
And so when we're pursuingblessing, we shouldn't be
thinking about an outcome, weshould be thinking about the
(10:19):
person.
If I want blessing, then what Iactually want is to pursue
God's presence.
See, because the Bible isactually saying those are the
same thing.
When I have found the presenceof God, I'm actually receiving
blessing from God.
But if I'm just pursuingblessing, well, I can actually
get that from a demon.
I can actually find that fromSatan.
This is why Jesus in the youknow, hey, in his temptation
(10:42):
right Turn these stones to bread, yeah, satan could do that for
you, that's an outcome?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Actually, I have that question for you, matt.
When you did with all theoccult stuff, did you have
things happen to you that cameoff as, like this is a blessing?
This is why I'm continuing todo this, more so than when you
were a Christian.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah, I mean, you get confirmations one way or the
other and it's basically like acarrot that you can never reach.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You just are constantly reaching out to grab
it.
You're like, oh, almost had it.
It's like that old commercialwith the dollar bill and the old
man oh you have to be quickerthan that.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
It's a lot like that, though, and people are reaching
out for it, and I think whatyou hit on, justin, is really,
really important.
It's how are we defining whatfavor is and how are we defining
what blessing is?
Because, ultimately, like favorwhere we started is God's
acceptance of you in hispresence, based off of your
understanding and pursuing him,and pursuing his preset and
(11:37):
doing what we are able to do inobedience to him.
And I think about that because,like Genesis 6, 8, noah found
favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Well, if you really think aboutthat, because, like Genesis 6,
8, noah found favor in the eyesof the Lord Well, if you really
think about Noah's like path andtrajectory, like that, he
probably had a really tough life.
The fact that he preached for120 years into the most
perverted culture that you couldimagine probably even worse
(11:58):
than what we have today and heonly managed to save his family
members, which is like what?
Not a lot of people, comparedto the amount of time that he
put into it, and then you havetotal destruction upon the earth
.
He stuck on the ark for a longtime with nothing but his family
and animals, and like, doesthat look like favor Right?
Like probably not in the moment, but it was favor.
(12:21):
It was favor because the Lordwas with him moment, but it was
favor.
It was favor because the Lordwas with him.
It was favor because the Lordsustained him and brought him
through that horrible likedestruction, that terrible
destruction of the of the world.
Um, so I think that there's adefinition problem.
Sometimes what we want as favoris probably different than what
the Lord has for us as favor,and we sometimes let the world
(12:44):
define what that means.
So, like man, favor would looklike I just got a new BMW.
Favor would look like I justgot a huge promotion.
Favor would look like I justwas able to buy a huge house.
That's not necessarily favor.
Sometimes those things areactually curses to people.
Like, hey, you just got a greathouse, somehow, you got a loan
(13:04):
for it and now you're underwater.
Now your payments are just.
Right Now you're losing it, butlike, ultimately, the pursuit of
the Lord is what brings that toyou.
You brought up.
Who was it?
What am I thinking of?
I don't know.
It's fine.
There's plenty of examples ofpeople throughout scripture
where it does not look like anideal situation.
(13:26):
Yeah, joseph went through somany trials and so many problems
, but the Lord was with him andthere was favor upon him to be
able to deliver people andultimately, favor results in
glorifying the Lord and the Lordbeing glorified more.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Sure, I think this is a natural response.
But I mean, we've all hadmoments in life where we just
get our teeth kicked inconstantly, Right, and then it's
that moment.
What am I doing wrong?
Like why, is God not with thisanymore?
Like what am I?
What do I need to change?
What do I need to figure out?
Cause it always seems like if Icould just figure out the right
answer, then God's going tocome back.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, Do you ever think Moses was just in?
Then God's going to come back.
Do you ever think Moses wasjust on the backside of the
desert?
Just like you know, I justhaven't cracked the code and one
of these days I'm going tofigure it out.
And then you know, 40 yearsafter that, he's like.
You know, if I could just crackthe code, maybe I'd finally get
out of this desert again.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I feel like Moses is like I wish I'd never became a
shepherd, I think.
I just think God's favor.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I did not hide good enough.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yeah, I just think God's favor means walking in his
plan, where his presence is.
I mean and he's thepersonification of this, the
quintessential verse thatexpresses this is if what Moses
said if you don't go with us,don't take us up from here yeah,
what he's saying.
I don't want to be where yourpresence isn't.
If your presence isn't goingwith us, then I don't have your
(14:46):
blessing, I'm not with you andI'm not going that direction.
Which tells me this Moses foundcomfort and peace in God alone.
He realized that thedestination of getting to the
promised land was not worth itif God's presence wasn't
actually there, and this is thething that I've brought up in
the past before.
(15:07):
But picture heaven eating thefruits that you haven't even
imagined yet.
You know what I mean that Godhas come up with, and hanging
out with the friends that youlove, that you miss so dearly,
or family members, or you know,maybe that weird dog that I
don't believe is in heaven, butyou do.
You know whatever that might be.
(15:27):
And maybe you, maybe you havethe ability to fly, maybe you,
maybe you will never feelexhausted, ever again.
None of those things exist ifJesus is not there, because he
is the substance of every singlegood thing.
Imagine, imagine, like thispicture of oh man, and I'm
(15:47):
trying to think of the story.
There's all these stories, likemythic stories, where somebody
tries to bring somebody backfrom the dead and they find that
it's not the person that theylove because their essence is
gone the monkey's bum, you knowwhat I mean?
Yeah, yeah, very similar Likethis.
This mythos goes beyond onestory.
It's like a constant thing infables.
I did things the wrong way andthe outcome that I got was very
(16:10):
different, even though what Isaid I was going to get is
standing in front of me.
Honestly, tim, what's the moviethat we love with Brennan
Fraser?
Is that his name?
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Tarzan oh, bedazzled, bedazzled, that's what I was
thinking of.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You know what I mean.
Every time he gets the thinganswered he's like this is not,
yeah, it's just, it's ruined.
It's ruined.
And as we just process that, Ijust I think we need to realize
that being where the presence ofGod is, that's where the joy is
, that's where the joy is,that's where the hope is.
(16:42):
And if we're focusing on ourcircumstances, we'll start to
hate the presence of God, whichis such a weird thing to think
about.
But like, God is with me rightnow, he's walking with me, he's
doing this stuff and I can begrowing in hatred and bitterness
.
And if you're like that, can't,you can't be in the presence of
God and experience that.
Well, say that to Lucifer, okay.
Or let's go a step farther, saythat to Judas, right.
(17:05):
Who is literally in thepresence of Jesus, hanging out,
experiencing miracles.
We're all like how did thathappen to you, bro?
How are you seeing the miracleof the fish and the loaves?
How are you seeing lepers gethealed?
How is all this happening?
And then you are gettingembittered and frustrated and
(17:27):
angry the whole time.
Well, because his innerdialogue sounded more like this
I'm sick of sleeping outside,I'm sick of just eating bare
minimum.
I'm sick of being attacked bythese Pharisees all the time.
I'm sick of Jesus not doingmore to bring in his kingdom and
usher it in sooner.
I'm sick of not getting morerespect from the society around
(17:49):
us for the things that I've done.
I'm sick of not being noticedamong the 12 for all the things
that I'm taking care of.
I'm sick of working off thesescraps.
I deserve a little bit morefrom the money box.
You can be actively angry at Godand searching for outcomes and
wanting more when you're in thevery presence of Jesus himself,
(18:09):
who is the fulfillment of thosethings, if you're not paying
attention to what it actuallymeans in that moment.
And so many people are justblind.
Like God is here, he's with you, he's caring for you, he loves
you and you are one of thesepeople that again 1
Thessalonians talks about, whoare just.
(18:29):
You're just.
The God of this age has blindedyou.
You have flirted withbitterness and frustration and
irritation so long that youcould be in the very presence of
God and be angry and bitter andirritated because you can't see
any of it.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, you know, I get this paralysis analysis thing
with God sometimes of God, Iwant your favor, so I'm going to
read more, pray more, just givea checklist mentality to it.
But that, I find, honestly,increases more bitterness
because I'm not seeing theresults.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I'm not seeing the outcomes.
Give me the outcome.
God's like, do you want to hangout with me?
I'm right here, right, right,yeah, give me the thing.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yeah, and it's funny too, because when we pray for
certain things that maybe theLord's put on your heart as
something that you actuallyreally truly desire, he's giving
you the desires of your heart.
You take it to your prayercloset and you're like, okay,
lord, give this to me, I wantthis, I want to partner with you
in this.
And then all of a sudden itseems like your plan for how you
get there is totallydisregarded and like the
(19:31):
timeline's different.
The friendships won andfriendships lost all of a sudden
become a different thing and itsends you on this path.
And I think that's tempting forthe Christian to be like, well,
where is God in this?
Because you said, you saidyou'd give me this, you said you
were going to take care of it,but you were actually saying, on
my terms, right?
And I think the root questionends up becoming to the
(19:53):
Christian who is God?
Who's God to you?
And it touches onto hissovereignty and like is he
actually?
Do you actually confess him tobe fully sovereign over your
life, over the circumstances ofthe world as it is?
And my heart goes out to peoplelike who face horrible
tragedies.
It's tough to find God in thecancer diagnosis.
It's tough to find God in thehurricane aftermath, but the
(20:16):
people who make it through that,and they crucify the flesh and
they instead turn their eyes toChrist, are the ones that is
sustained by him and his favoris poured out immeasurably to
them.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Let me ask you guys, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Oh, I was just going to say this.
Heart posture is really clearlyseen in the prophet Elijah, who
is at his wits end, angry thathe's not seeing revival in the
nation.
And God asked him the questionwhat are you doing here, elijah?
His response I've been veryjealous for the Lord, the God of
hosts, for the sons of Israelhave forsaken your covenant,
torn down your altars, killedyour prophets with the sword,
(20:52):
and I alone am left and theyseek my life to take it away.
Okay, this is the guy who justslaughtered 900 false prophets,
called down fire from heaven andjust showed everybody, in the
face of everyone, that Yahweh isthe true God.
Fed by ravens about 40 days agofrom this, he was eating
(21:12):
pancakes cooked on a hot stonemade by an angel of God for him,
of God for him, and he can'tsee God's blessing or provision
because he's too focused on whatGod hasn't done for him or the
things he thought he was goingto accomplish.
And I wanted to make a noteabout this before we get too far
off this topic For anyonethat's read Until we have Faces,
(21:35):
I'm just going to continue torecommend it because I think
it's a fabulous book.
Is that CS Lewis?
Yeah, it's Lewis' last book.
It's a retelling of the Greekmythological story of Cupid and
Psyche.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
All right, yeah, the Greek one.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It's really good.
There's this story about thisyoung girl who, basically, is
taken and married by a god andthis god takes her away to this
palace, this beautiful place.
It's fantastic and the onlyrule is she's not allowed to
look at his face.
Like that's the one rule You'renot allowed to look at his face
(22:09):
, but look what he's providedfor us.
It's this amazing thing.
And this girl basicallyconvinces this girl to do the
thing that she's not supposed todo, in bitterness and
frustration, because ultimately,she's mad that this girl is
married to this god and that shedoesn't get all of her time and
affection.
(22:31):
This the protagonist if youcould call her that in the story
.
She's not.
She's writing a book, basically, which is a polemic against the
gods, to tell them everythingthat they've done wrong and how
horrible they've done and howthey've ruined her life.
And in this instance, sheallows her bitterness to
(22:59):
convince her sister, who hasthis amazing setup with this
prince who's taking care of herand loves her and has provided
all this stuff.
She convinces her to sinagainst him and ends up.
She ends up losing her abilityto stay married to this God you
know what I mean and has toleave and go wander the earth by
herself, and I love this storyfor a lot of reasons.
There's like every fairy taleis in this tale, but ultimately,
what I want to focus on is theperson who can't see the present
(23:21):
.
Oh, I forgot to mention thisthe castle in this tale.
But ultimately, what I want tofocus on is the person who can't
see the present.
Oh, I forgot to mention this.
The castle in this is invisible.
She can see that this girl'spsyche looks healthy and
beautiful and vibrant morevibrant than she's ever been but
she can't see it.
She can't see the castle.
And bitter people who can't seethe presence of God uh, try to
convince other people of howawful and terrible God is.
(23:42):
That if you just did what hetold you not to do, then you
would see how horrible he is.
It's the fruit in the garden.
If you just do the thing thathe told you not to do, then
you'll see.
It's what Satan says to God.
If you just do this to him,then you'll see.
This is the guy who's alwaysaccusing people to try to get
(24:03):
them, bait them, into doingsomething that they shouldn't do
.
You know what I mean To get thething or the outcome that he
wants.
That is actually destructionand something awful, and many
people like Judas are sittingaround bad talking, frustrated,
growing bitterness and actuallystealing from other people who
are enjoying the presence of God, the ability to see the
(24:24):
presence of God, by getting themto indulge in that wicked,
malicious, unforgiving, bitterheart towards God.
And so you need to be reallycareful, because people who
can't see the blessing of Godwill try to convince you that
you can't see it either.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
And I would even tell you too, it's a muscle that the
Christian needs to develop,especially depending on people's
testimony.
People can come into a, theycan become regenerated, they can
become a Christian, and theycan still carry with them the
really, really pessimisticoutlook on life.
Sure, and they carry that withthem.
Then, all of a sudden, like allthe things are going wrong
according to their mind andtheir judgment of things,
(25:01):
because, oh well, I'm aChristian and all of a sudden my
life just became harder, likewhy did that happen?
And they aren't quitecatechized yet to be able to
think through, like Romans 8, 28, that God is working out all
things for the good of those wholove him, for ultimately.
So the question then becomesright, like if we are looking
for favor from the Lord, ifwe're trying to be in that area
(25:24):
of things, I think that twothings come to mind.
Number one is that put down ourown presuppositions about what
that means.
Sure, like it's completelydifferent.
God's ways are higher than oursand he knows way better than us
about how to glorify himselfthrough what we're doing, about
how to glorify himself throughwhat we're doing.
And the second thing that weneed to understand is why does
favor rest upon some people andnot rest upon others.
(25:47):
And ultimately it's due to thefact that God's providence is
something that is presented topeople for the expansion of the
kingdom.
It's presented to people forthe health and the good of his
church.
Right, all of the things thathe's doing is for his church and
to glorify him and, asChristians, for us to be able to
(26:09):
partner with God, so to speak,is more along the lines of
saying just like God, you havecontrol, like you're in this.
And then that's where you startto see okay, well, if the goal
is expansion of your kingdom, ifthe goal is the good of your
church and to take care of yourchurch if I can trust Romans 8,
28, then everything else is kindof inconsequential.
(26:29):
We all know that we'll gothrough hard times and better
times, and everybody needs tounderstand that, that there's
going to be different seasonsfor everybody.
And you brought up Job.
Job's a great example of that.
Man was faithful Like he didaccording to the scriptures.
He really did nothing wrong andhe got slapped up the entire
book of Job pretty much, and hedid not so much as posture
(26:55):
himself to make himself thejudge of his own situation.
He did not posture himself in away of saying like, well, this
is good, this is bad, butinstead his friends all came to
him and said this is how youjudge this.
Well, that wasn't at all whatGod was saying.
That wasn't at all what God'sreasoning behind that was.
Now did Job have questions?
(27:16):
Absolutely, and the funny partabout that is how God answered
Job.
He, he didn't.
He, he's like god.
Why is everything so hard?
And you know what he did.
He showed him how big he was ohgod said shut up.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
He says I am god you are not.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Yeah, do you?
Do you know what thefoundations of the earth look
like?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
you ever made a hippopotamus loser like, do you?
Speaker 3 (27:37):
know how difficult that was to get through approval
processes with that animal morelike you know how difficult
that was to get through approvalprocesses with that animal More
like you know how easy it wasfor me yeah.
And ultimately, when confrontedwith who God is and his
character, Job shrunk back andsaid you know what?
You're right.
And then what happened at theend of Job?
(27:58):
Blessing, Blessing.
We forget about that Ten times,right, we forget about that.
Everything that he lost, theLord restored to him and
everything that happened to himwas for it to be documented,
written down, put into ourscriptures for us to be able to
read for encouragement.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
And just to follow the narrative of what we've been
talking about.
Basically the story of Job ishey, if you take away all the
outcomes that the person ishoping for, satan tells God well
, he'll definitely stop seeingyour presence and stop following
you.
Then he's more interested inthe outcome than you.
And the story of Job is Jobwrestling the entire time to
(28:37):
hold on to God and to him, asopposed to his circumstances,
and in that getting to see thefullness of that blessing
restored 10 times over.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I like that.
Yeah, if this is the outcome offollowing God, then so be it
right.
Yes, kind of that mindset, thatis it.
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
It is.
Every.
Every instance of difficulty inyour personal life is a greater
opportunity to tighten yourgrip on what actually matters
and loosen your grip on theoutcome that you think you need.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, matt, you brought up control and we did
one on Ecclesiastes a coupleweeks back, jesse, yeah, and we
didn't get to this part, but Ilearned this with Ecclesiastes
when he's talking aboutmeaningless, how it's actually
Hebrew for hevel yeah.
Which means smoke and vapor.
So he's not calling lifemeaningless.
Hebrew for hevel, which meanssmoke and vapor.
So he's not calling lifemeaningless.
He's saying your life is like asmoke.
You cannot grasp it.
(29:24):
Like it's going to go whereit's going to go, you know.
Trust God At the end of thatbook.
Just trust God.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Well, the connection to that right is John, chapter 3
.
Yeah, the spirit, or the wind,blows where it wants to.
Yeah, and if you are followingthe spirit, what does that say
about your vapid existence?
It's going to be here and thereand God's going to take you
places, and people that followthe wind uh, are are vapor.
That should write like yeah,I'm going, I'm going with him,
(29:52):
but have you ever seen a smoke?
Try to fight against the wind.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
That's an awkward that doesn't make any sense,
yeah, yeah, even nature itself,you know, is it a wrong
mentality to all right?
I want God's favor, so I'mgoing to start, I'm going to
read the Bible.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
For the favor, I'm going to go to church for the
favor, I'm going to tithe forthe blessing, so I?
I think that that's a.
The short answer is probablyyes, right, but at the same time
, there is something to be saidabout building spiritual habits
so that you get there, right.
It sounds more like prosperity,I guess.
Well, there's a concept of eatuntil you're hungry, right, you
may have to discipline yourselfenough to be able to get to the
point where, all of a sudden,you're doing this not because of
(30:34):
the fact that you're trying toget something from God, but
rather your heart starts toactually fall in love with who
God is.
And that is an okay startingplace for some people.
But so long as they don't landthere and end there, and they
continue to have gooddiscipleship and they're
attending the church that theLord has told them to attend,
and learning under good men, orpotentially, if you're a lady,
learning under a spiritual woman, that's more, I guess, advanced
(30:57):
in the Christian faith than youare, if you're doing those
things, I think that most ofthat will kind of work itself
out.
But I mean, I think that a lotof people would probably say,
well, I know, I'm supposed to dothis, and then you start to
like oh, I do this because Ilove God Right.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And I think that's, I guess, what I'm kind of getting
at is I want the works or thefruits right to be an overflow
of my love for God.
But, man, it's hard, Like Idon't want to read all the time,
I don't want to pray all thetime, I don't want to worship
all the time.
You know what I mean.
So forcing myself to do thosethings like is this counting?
Can I throw something in here?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, I think about this immediately in the context
of marriage.
I just do look, I love my wife.
I have five children.
I'm trying to think there'sthis pastor, he has this joke.
He's like I don't have fivekids because I love kids.
I have five kids because I lovemy wife.
You know, always make me laugh.
It's so funny.
But here's the deal you couldsay.
(31:55):
You could say that all thethings that I'm doing at home
are ultimately to spend uniquetime with my wife.
Right, that's really not thecase.
But am I working my game allday as well?
You bet I am.
I think that's the tension is,ultimately, I want to do
(32:15):
something that's going to helpserve the outcome.
To do something that's going tohelp serve the outcome and in
that there's also great joy andadventure and frustration and
all the things that come alongwith like relationship.
So if you make it one or theother, you either end up in
legalism or antinomianism.
But the Christian faith is thistension of I love my wife, I
(32:40):
want to stay married and alsoI'm going to work for the
benefit and the things thathelped me fall more in love with
you in that process, which arethrough these small steps along
the way.
So this great picture ofcovenantal love and also
sanctification is this processof being married but also
working your game because youwant to stay married, and I do
(33:03):
think that's it.
So if I'm reading the Bible andI'm worshiping, is that
ultimately because I just wantGod to give me a house?
No, but I'd love a house.
Right?
If I don't get the house, am Ifalling out of love with Jesus?
No, I love Jesus.
This is what I'm doing.
But I'll tell you what's goingto happen If I get that house
I'm going to fill it with peoplewho don't know Jesus yet or
(33:25):
other worshipers of God, and I'mgoing to use this house for
God's glory and for what we'regoing to do.
Is that a good thing?
Yes, because it's part of theprocess and ultimately, to
fulfill that relationship andhelp continue to grow the
process of loving God's presence.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah, and I.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
God takes those things from you If you start to
elevate the gift above the giverright.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
That's such a good word because there's something
that I tell people all the timeis that when we're finally
standing in front of Jesus andwe're kind of revealed
everything that he has beendoing and orchestrating in our
lives, I firmly believe we'llprobably thank him more for the
no's in our lives than the yes,that for the things that he
closed the door on in our lives,then the things that he opened
the doors in our lives.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, and know this we learn far more from pain than
we ever do from victory.
Guys, yep, you just do.
Our moments of joy arefantastic and I appreciate them,
and our hilltops are fantasticand I love them and I want them.
But the times where I'mactually growing and becoming
something more is when you're inthe prison with Joseph and
(34:29):
you're actually finding thepresence of God with you there,
and I would argue those samethings are true in your marriage
and with your kids as well.
True, in your marriage and withyour kids as well.
It's the low, frustrating pointsthat actually define your
strength, because you had tofind that together and work at
that together, not the momentswhen everything's working out
together.
This is why I always joke aboutstupid shows like the Bachelor
(34:50):
or whatever it's like.
Yeah, take them all out oftheir actual work environment,
out of all the struggle theymight deal with, and put them on
a freaking island togetherwhere everyone cooks for them,
everyone cleans for them andeverything is perfect.
And then take them out of thatenvironment after they think
they found the one and put themin an actual difficult
environment and let's see how itworks out.
(35:10):
I can't imagine the statisticsof people staying together on
that show are very high.
I just I don't think.
I don't think so because it'snot the moments of victory that
forge, you know, beauty andgreatness and connection.
It's the moments of strugglethat do those things.
And if you're always avoidingthat, you're always looking just
for outcomes, it's not going togo well.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
You reminded me of uh , was it Psalm?
Oh man, two, three, you knowyou leave me by still waters
through the valley of the shadowof death.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
It was 23.
23,.
I was way up.
Well, I got two and a three.
You were in the Psalms.
I was there, you were in thePsalms.
It was great.
And you didn't say book Rightthe Psalms.
You said the right number, joeBiden.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
You remind me of that Psalm because for the longest
time I thought that go throughthe valley, get to the mountain
right.
And then you go through thevalley, get to the mountain.
We're talking about the hillsand stuff.
But now I read that and I'mlike no, you find the valley in
the well, you find the greenpastures in that valley.
(36:09):
Yeah, you have to find thepasture within that valley of
death.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, the mountaintop that's how you get there Is the
valley sometimes.
Yeah, you know what I mean, andthe valley is the mountaintop.
It's your perspective.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Is God with me or is he not with me?
It's like the idea of, like Isaid, this is like a
step-by-step thing or something,but it's all one thing.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
The valley, the mountain.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
The pastures is all in there.
You just got to find thepasture with God.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
It's what made Peter a retard.
Like, let me explain this, thisto you.
I'm not trying to be edgy here.
Well, maybe I am a little.
Peter and John are gettingwhipped and beaten and they're
coming out singing songs becausethey're like man, we're getting
to do what Jesus did.
Y'all are crazy.
Or Paul, he's chained to peoplein prison and he's just singing
(36:54):
hymns in the middle of thenight.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Stoned once and then walked back into the city.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
It creates the behavior of a crazy person in
you, because, instead of beingthe person, like Judas, who's in
the presence of God and onlyfocusing on all the outcomes he
doesn't have, you can be theopposite of that, where you can
be the person who's in all theoutcomes you don't have, but so
enamored by the presence of Godthat you're just invulnerable to
it, and I think that is thethat's.
(37:22):
The goal, you know, is tobecome that person who worships
an immovable God and, because ofthat, becomes an immovable
person, and that's a really goodthing that we would want to
work on together.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
But yeah, and by the way, I looked it up on how many
couples stay together afterdating shows and stuff like that
.
So that's like married at firstsight, the Bachelor, all these
other ones 80 to 95% of couplesfrom dating shows end up
breaking up post-show.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Because you end up synthetic right.
You synthetically look at theworld, and I think that this is
a good metaphor for how weactually can view success.
Sometimes it's like, great, wehad this awesome thing, but
where are you actually groundedin?
Where are you actually rootedin and, actually, more
importantly, what's yourmotivations?
Speaker 1 (38:09):
right.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
I think that there is something to be said where,
like, there's some altruism thatthe Christians should lean into
to some degree.
It's like, why do we do what wedo for the sake of the Lord
alone, like we don't do it forhim to be able to fill our bank
account?
We don't, you know, buy the bighome in order to say, well,
look at my home.
Everything that we have and aregiven are instruments and tools
(38:29):
that the Lord has given us in aspecific way, in a specific
time, for us to be able to servehim.
So when, justin, you weresaying that, wow, if I got a big
home, do you know what I'd bedoing?
I'd be filling the home with awhole ton of people that to be
able to worship you and glorifyyou, lord, that's what I would
do.
That with, do with that house.
And I think that sometimes, like, we can say that and the Lord
(38:49):
says, okay, cool, well, let mesanctify you until you get to
that point, because I actuallyknow where your heart truly is.
And then we shake our fist atthe sky and we're like why is it
so hard?
Why do I not have the housethat I want yet?
And the reality is that if youwere given that, it would just
be like giving a loaded gun to atoddler.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Daddy won't buy me a car, right yeah, but we kind of
treat it like that.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
And, at the same time , there's things that the Lord
gives us that we desire, that wereally want to be involved in,
that we want to pursue, that wewant to have and, yes, I think
that in our hearts and in ourminds, we know that it's
supposed to be sanctified, givenas a sacrifice to the Lord, but
also keep in mind he can takeit away anytime, right.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, I totally agree with all that.
I think, just through thisprocess, this podcast, I really
think the thing to remember isultimately looking for blessing
and pursuing blessing should belooking for and pursuing the
presence of God, and there's atension there of desiring
outcomes that would help fulfilland amplify my love for the
(39:50):
presence of God.
David's whole life was apursuit of the presence of God.
Moses' whole life was a pursuitof the presence of God.
Even Christ comes down, becomesincarnate, is separated from
God and the worst moment for himever.
You know what I mean.
My God, my God, elo, elo lamasabachthani, my God, my God, why
have you forsaken me?
The worst thing that can happento you is that the presence of
(40:12):
God would not be with you in aparticular moment and our heart
cries.
Christians needs to be.
If you don't go with us, don'ttake us up from here, and if
that is your heart posture,whatever outcome you're sitting
in right now, christian, you getto be I'll say it again the
retard.
You're right.
Who is like?
Dude, everyone's like.
Why are you happy?
How are you surviving throughthis?
(40:34):
How is this working out?
Because I know God Right andhe's with me and I can make.
This is the God that makesgraves in the gardens right.
This is the God that makes thehighway that's called holiness.
This is the God that hasresurrection power and, no
matter what circumstance I findmyself in, I know I'm in his
presence and this prison, likeJoseph, is about to become mine
(40:57):
and I'm going to use it in areally cool way to bring about,
ultimately, the salvation oftons of other people.
This goes so far beyond me.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yeah, and I'd say with that mindset too, I think
as a Christian you could almostlook at almost all situations in
your life as a form of God'sfavor on you.
It may not appear like that atthe front end of it.
It may seem tough, but if youare truly abiding in the Lord
and understanding that, hey,trials and tribulations are a
grace from him, hey, the coolthings that he's giving you and
the things that are working outin your life, that's a grace
(41:26):
from him.
And all of that is to meld youand to make you and to sanctify
you into more and more hislikeness as your life grows,
goes on, so that you can glorifyhim all the more.
And that, at the root level, isfavor, even when it's like
you're rubbing off the roughedges of a piece of wood with
sandpaper, like that's God'sfavor, that's okay, and we need
(41:49):
to understand that as.
Thank you, sir.
May I have another?
Yeah, I mean again, have that.
If we are able to really trulysit as Christians and say you
know what?
I don't know why so-and-sopassed away in my life.
I don't know why a firecompletely destroyed my home.
I don't know why any of thishappens, but I know that God's
(42:11):
got a plan.
God is fully in control, god isabsolutely sovereign and I
guarantee you because, justinand Tim, you guys probably have
exact same type of testimonieswhere you go through something
so hard and then maybe yearslater you look back and you're
like, okay, I know exactly whatthe Lord was doing and I would
not change that for anything,because that has helped define
(42:33):
me and make me into who I am andto how I worship what I've
noticed with.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
that is when things are hard and struggling,
eventually life takes onmomentum because of those hard
and struggling and it's like, ohokay, this is great.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Matt, I was over here while you guys are so deep in
this and for some reason my headfloated way too.
Yeah, my pronouns would not beshe, her if I didn't go.
I'm sorry.
We'll call back to thebeginning of the episode.
You're 100% right.
You're 100% right and I havefaith.
Even.
I would even say for you guysthat are like man, I don't, I
look back and I don't know whyGod did this.
(43:08):
Hebrews 11 is one of my favoritepassages because it says hey, a
bunch of people didn't get tosee what you got to see.
They didn't get to.
Abraham got this promise.
He didn't get to see thefruition of that promise until
he was on the other side.
But I'm trusting God's presence, that I'm following him, and
one day, whether on this side ofthe grave or the next, I will
look back and not only will whatGod has done be perfect, it
(43:29):
will be seen by the saints tohave been perfect as well.
And my hope is in that, in thatone day, that great feeling of
justice and revelation and truth, and that man, what God has
done is marvelous.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
And it's total triumph, too right.
You look at it and it's likeman, the triumph of the Lord and
all of this.
And I just I guess one thingthat I would say for men,
especially if you're goingthrough some stuff just think
about this.
I think about this all the time.
It's winning without a fightactually feels like losing, yeah
, Like winning without a fightfeels inauthentic.
It feels like, did I actuallydeserve that?
(44:03):
Like, and I kind of think aboutlike Jake Paul versus Mike
Tyson.
It's like do you actually feelgood about that dude Like I?
Speaker 2 (44:09):
saw this meeting man.
Somebody was like.
He was like this Greenlandshark is 463 years old and
somebody was like better,callake paul, he's got another
fight yeah, but no, I mean, thelord puts us through this for a
reason.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
David would not be who he was if it wasn't for the
caves.
Yeah, you know, joseph wouldnot have been who he was if it
wasn't for the prison, and thelord delights in using people
who've just said yes to him,regardless of the circumstance.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Do you think that's what Joseph's brothers said to
him when they first find out?
Speaker 3 (44:47):
You're going to love it later.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
No, no, no, no no, they saw him and they had a hard
time recognizing him at first,and then they knew it was him
and they were like prisonchanged you.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
I just thought of like prison Mike.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
I'm from the office.
I'm prison.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Joseph.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
All right.
Well, this was a fun topic,guys.
Thank you both for being here,yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I'm going to pray for people real quick, Timmy.
Father, God, I pray for peopleto see you and enjoy your
presence.
Lord, I pray that for anybodythat is dealing with the spirit
of Joseph or Judas, Lord,dealing with that spirit that
wants to see all thefrustrations when you have set a
table for us in the presence ofour enemies, Lord, would you
(45:32):
just heal their damaged emotionsin this moment.
Give them eyes to see youclearly, ears to hear what it is
that you're saying, Lord, and agrip in their hand to hold
tightly to you through whateverthey're walking through.
Lord, we love you and we thankyou for your presence that is
with us, Lord, as we walk inunity with your spirit.
We pray in Jesus name, Amen.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Amen, cool.
Well, thanks for having me guys.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Thanks for coming back on everybody have a great
week, all right?
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Catch you all next time.
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