October 31, 2024 • 49 mins
tjbhpodcast@gmail.com
Venturing further, we reflect on the human pursuit of fulfillment through idols, echoing biblical references to Sheol and Abaddon. Whether it's material possessions or relationships, the search for satisfaction often leads us away from God. By exploring the generational consequences of idolatry, including addiction and abusive behavior, we underscore that only God can truly fulfill our deepest needs. Through stories from the Bible and cultural references, we challenge the allure of forbidden treasures and encourage a confrontation with our own idolatrous tendencies, urging a prioritization of spiritual fidelity.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey guys, welcome back to Navigate.
I'm with Justin Hart, justin,the man, justin.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Dude, we never are going to get the intro right.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I don't think so.
Not with you here.
I feel like when you're nothere, I feel like I do a great
job.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I nail it at night by myself, all the time when I'm
just practicing.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
But you're never not here.
So I'm here now, you not here.
I'm here now.
You never know, I'm here.
I'm here for you, tim.
All right, round two, round two, going through the Ten
Commandments.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
So the second one during my little research that I
do.
One of them was graven imagesand idols.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Is that the same thing?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
It kind of spells it out in a long way.
So Exodus 20, it says this.
It says I am a jealous Godvisiting the iniquities of the
fathers on the children and onthe third and fourth generation
(01:05):
of those who hate me, butshowing loving kindness to
thousands, to those who love meand keep my commandments.
So it's definitely a qualifiedstatement where he's not just
saying don't worship thesethings, but then he gives you
some hints about what they areand what the repercussions of
what those things are on yourfamily, which are huge, I mean.
(01:25):
So this is a big commandmentwith a lot going on with it.
Yeah, yeah.
So some people are like gravenimages.
Yeah, same thing, it's justengraved stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I always thought, like graven images, like can't
have pictures of Jesus in yourhouse, can't have a crucifix.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
That's a great question.
A lot of people think so, likethe big problem with the chosen
that a lot of people have is theGrave.
Is it breaking the secondcommandment by creating an image
that people are going topicture when they pray?
You know what I mean.
That's like oh, is this?
Are we allowed to pray and usethis as a prompt?
(02:01):
Are we not allowed to pray anduse this as a prompt?
I mean, we could really go downto the wormhole Like this this
is where you get into difficultywith um, like praying to saints
, am I, am I using this personto pray for me?
You get into this, especiallywith iconography and, uh, the
Orthodox church, which is a bigdeal right now, Like the largest
growing church in the world, isthe orthodox church, yeah, and
(02:23):
everybody's going back to itbecause it has this wonderful
iconography and deep liturgy andall this stuff.
The problem iconography like uh,iconography is basically the
created images or icons that areto assist in in worship oh,
okay so if I have, like a, apicture of jesus carved on a
cross, or if I have a statue ofChrist with, or a statue of Mary
(02:47):
or one of the saints or thingslike that, the Catholic Church
is very into this as well.
Yeah, so this is a big question, like when are you creating an
image that is helping youworship, or when are you
creating a mediator by which youare trying to worship through?
(03:08):
And it gets complicated quick,man, like there's some.
It's unfortunate, but I dothink it's important.
So when we jump in and we thinkabout idols and the second
commandment, really what we'reasking, the question is, or the
statement that's being made isdon't have anything you are
(03:30):
using to try to worship me thatis not me.
Don't use anything as a God, afalse God, something for a
religious experience.
Don't let anything basicallybecome a mediator for you in
Jesus other than Jesus, but moreso than that, don't let
anything be Jesus to you thatisn't Jesus.
So it's both things.
(03:51):
Really, if you wanted to thinkabout it this way, you could say
something along the lines ofthe first commandment is I'm
trying to think of the best wayto communicate this.
I guess the first commandmentforbids worshiping a false God.
You should only worship God.
I guess the first commandmentforbids, you know, worshiping a
false God, you should onlyworship God.
And then the second commandmentis really forbidding worshiping
(04:12):
the true God in a false manner.
It might be a good way to stateit In a false manner.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So, like, if I'm worshiping and people are
created to worship, which is whyI'm saying this it might sound
confusing to you if I say, oh,worshiping the false god in a
false manner.
Well, it's like.
Well, doesn't that sound likethe third commandment?
Sure, we'll get into some ofthat stuff later and how that
functionally plays out, but whatI would say is you can have an
(04:46):
idol, either by having a godthat is not the true god, that
you have placed in the place ofgod and now are praising it and
worshiping it in that sense, oryou can create a false mediator
to God that is not God, becausethere's actually only one
mediator between God and man theman, jesus Christ, as 1 Timothy
2 tells us.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
When you're talking about people who pray to the
saints like false mediatorsthere.
Right, yeah, exactly, On behalf, right.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Exactly so the difficulty then becomes is
someone a mediator for you,which is a problem?
And then, if you get into theCatholic Church, you get things
like what's called dulya,hyperdulia and latria.
Latria is the worship that isgiven to God alone.
Only that worship can go to him.
Worship can go to him.
But hyperdulia is like well,it's a type of reverence that we
(05:25):
have, veneration that we havefor something which functionally
looks exactly the same from theoutside.
But they feel better about itif I give one a name and the
other not, even though I'm kindof doing the same thing.
So it becomes sticky.
So, to bring it back, sorry,I'm like wow, we got into the
weeds really fast there You'vehonestly triggered something, so
yeah, Okay, well, we got intothe weeds really fast there.
(05:46):
You've honestly triggeredsomething.
So, yeah, okay, well, we can gothere.
I'm happy to do that, happy tojump in and have that
conversation, but a lot ofpeople are worshiping false gods
or, let's say, idols, and Iwant to get into what that is
because I think that's important.
And then the second thing iswhat are false ways to worship
God by way of idolatry?
That are also problems, and Ithink we there's a lot of
(06:09):
conversation about this throughchurch history Like RC Sproul,
who I dearly love.
I love RC Sproul but he has noproblem with paintings of Jesus.
He has no problems withpaintings of the Lord and that
evoking in us a sense of oh,it's a storytelling.
He's not praying to the picture, but he would say that's
totally fine.
Some people throughout churchhistory would say you should
never even attempt to paintJesus, lest you create an image
(06:33):
that is not actually the realthing, that then people come to
venerate and use for prayer in amediatorial sense, which is not
actually the right mediator.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
There's that famous painting of Jesus from that girl
who claims to have gone toheaven.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, yeah yeah, I can't remember the name of her
and she writes, she paints likeBuddhist stuff and all kinds,
like she totally went off therails.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I don't know much about it, I just like a little
documentary about it.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
But you know, I see that image everywhere.
Yeah, a lot of people see thatand they are like in the
catacombs of Jesus.
You know what I mean.
So, like in my head, I'm like Idon't think there's a problem
with trying to tell a story ordepict Christ.
So I actually don't have aproblem with the chosen.
I don't think they're breakingthe second commandment
personally by giving a poeticrendition with the understanding
(07:23):
that no, this is not actuallyJesus and you should not pray to
this person's face when you'repraying.
He's trying to display whatChrist did in an artistic
rendering.
The problem is that there is aline there, because there's been
so many times throughouthistory where people will take
an image and now the imagebecomes sacred.
The big joke about this is likeum, who's the guy?
(07:45):
Tim, who plays?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
uh, obi-wan I was just thinking that story, yeah,
it's the same thing, yeahexactly so it's like you know,
somebody had a statue of thatguy it was a picture of obi-wan
kenobi yeah, and they thought itwas jesus right and they're
like oh well, I pray to thatright.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
So they're using an icon to pray to, with the
assumption that it's endowedwith some, let's say, specific
mediatorial value.
And I would say no that is notthe case.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I would agree with you there.
But aren't there some of thesethings there to help you kind of
get your heart positioned forworship better?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So here's, another difficult thing, man, we got
into the weeds quick here.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
I'm really into this stuff.
It helps me, so let's go there.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So this is difficult.
When somebody says somethinglike a worship pastor says I'm
here to usher you into thepresence of God.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
What they just said is I'm now your mediator and
really your worship isn't goingto be the same unless I'm here.
No, incorrect, not good,although people can worship and,
let's say, the manifestpresence of God could fall in a
really cool way.
I'm like amen, but it wasn'tbecause that dude with tight
(08:59):
pants was singing a song.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
I agree, and now, he did that for me, but doesn't the
music get you there?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I would say, to the degree that something helps you
focus on the real thing, it'sgood to the degree that it
doesn't, it's a problem and alot of people have a hard time
distinguishing.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Right, okay, so, um, like old Anglican churches I
love this used to put the choirin the back and you would sing
forward like pews facing forward, and they would have like
stained glass which haddifferent pictures of different
scenes from the Bible and thingsand the goal was not to focus
on the people but focus on whoGod was and the stories.
The problem is there.
Even there, you're looking atthe glass or you're focusing on
(09:37):
the glass thing and you'retrying to pray through that
somehow or sing through it.
What's the line there?
How's that happening?
Some people JI Packer, his bookKnowing God he writes a lot
about this.
He's a big thing.
Like you, should not have adepiction of Jesus on a shirt.
You shouldn't have a depictionof Jesus on the cross.
Display the cross but don't putJesus on there, because it's
(09:58):
breaking the second commandment.
I think he's on to something inthat we're making things
trivial when we put Jesus on ashirt or put a guitar in his
hands of some depiction ofChrist that actually downplays
the significance of who he is orwhat he did.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I don't see a problem with the crucifix stuff, though
.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
I mean, that's what the cross is for Well, we'll get
into taking the name of God invain, which is where I'll really
go down that wormhole, andwe'll talk more about how to
empty the name of God of itssignificance or empty God of you
know.
In some sense, we would emptythe God, a God of the value or
(10:36):
weight of what his name and whohe is should represent.
I don't want to get there yet.
We'll get there a little bitlater.
Remember, these first fourcommandments are all about God,
right, and the next six are allabout us and how we act in light
of those things.
So, loving God, loving othersright, and how we do that.
Well, but in this particulararea we're talking about okay,
how then am I supposed toworship God?
(10:57):
That's the picture, and thereality is we are made to
worship you are made by Goduniquely to give praise and
worship to the one who createdyou in his own image.
Worship pours out of men,regardless of what they actually
functionally believe.
(11:18):
Atheist praise Atheist worship.
Agnostics praise Agnosticsworship.
People are hardwired to worship.
In fact, I saw a statistic thatit was.
Theynostics praise.
Agnostics worship.
People are hardwired to worship.
In fact, I saw a statistic thatit was.
They did some study, but it wasbasically like men are
hardwired to believe in thingsgreater than themselves and
praise regardless of what theybelieve.
It's like they're almost wiredto believe in God, whether they
(11:39):
want to or not.
So think about our culturetoday, tim.
Like what are things thatpeople functionally worship now?
And by this what I mean iswhatever is driving your
decisions that isn't from God,like that's an idol.
Whatever is driving yourdecisions that isn't something
that God has said should driveyour decisions is functionally
(11:59):
an idol.
So like, if you are, is thislike just sin or yeah Well, it's
a type of sin, right?
And I would say, of all thecommandments, this is the most
difficult hands down, becauseeverything at some level, kind
of I guess you could say,becomes an idol.
Like, let me read this to you.
This is Colossians 3, verse 5.
(12:21):
All right, you ready for this?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Let me pull this, colossians 3?
.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, colossians 3, verse 5.
All right, you ready for this?
Let me pull this, colossians 3.
Yeah, colossians 3, verse 5says put to death, therefore,
what is earthly in you.
Okay, that's important, right,sexual immorality, impurity,
passion, evil, desire andcovetousness.
And then it says this, which isidolatry.
So I would like to say, hey,idolatry is just making a graven
(12:49):
image and worshiping that.
What Paul does in Colossians istake it out of the realm of
things and actually make them,um, let's say, patterns or heart
conditions for what you'reactually trying to run after.
Okay, so here's the like.
Here's the question, tim whydid people worship idols?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
To get an answer for something.
Get stuff, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Get stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I do this, so this gives me what I want.
I'll burn incense for the rainGod so that he gives me rain,
right, I will give crops to thisparticular thing so my wife
will have a baby.
I'll give money to thisparticular thing so that these
people don't invade.
I'll sacrifice my child so thatI have a future.
(13:37):
Okay, I want to like bring thisback to our culture right now.
We can get there.
Do you see what I'm saying?
So, really, what it's saying is, hey, the condition of the
heart is to go to things thatare not God to give, what only
God is supposed to give you.
And so how this plays out inall kinds of circumstances is
(14:00):
when you want something andyou're willing to sin or go out
of your way, go to a differentplace or do something that God
hasn't ordained to get it, thatis an idol in your life.
That's what it is.
Proverbs 27, 20 is one of myfavorite verses on this.
He says Sheol and Abaddon arenever satisfied.
Nor are the eyes of a man eversatisfied Like, literally, sheol
(14:22):
and Abaddon.
The chasm which every darkthing is cast into it is a
bottomless void.
He's like.
You know what's like that?
Men's eyes Just staring into,staring at, desiring, wanting
whatever.
And obviously man here is, youknow, mankind.
But our tendency is to try toget from things that we weren't
(14:45):
meant to get what only God issupposed to give us, and we'll
look for mediators to give usthose things.
So when he's saying, hey, don'tcarve for yourself graven
images, don't make for yourselfan idol of the likeness what is
in heaven above, or on earthbelow or whatever, why?
Because he's saying, thosethings you're trying to go to to
get what you're only supposedto get from me, you come to me,
(15:07):
not to something else.
Quit making false gods.
We brought up the ox or thecalf in Exodus right?
Well, we'll just say this is theGod that got us out there, and
we'll worship and giveveneration to this.
What are they saying?
We'll replace God.
This is a good second, andit'll give us what we need right
now, so I'll settle for this.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
That whole thing to me is still weird.
Why would you build somethinglike that and expect power to
come from it?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I think, because we're made to worship, our
tendency is to create things,see wonder and beauty in them.
Imagine this, tim you look at agiant gold statue.
It's beautifully, artisticallydone.
It has jewels and ornamentsbuilt into it.
It's gorgeous.
Okay, something in you is like,wow, that's beautiful, right.
(15:52):
And then your tendency is totake it a step further and say
man, I wonder if it has somekind of magical powers.
I wonder if it has the abilityto do something for me.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
I never see it that way, but yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Well, okay, so like.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Me personally, not just in general, just me.
I just don't know how peoplecan get there.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
That's interesting.
I'm surprised to think that Ithink actually most people think
that things will accomplishthings for them all the time,
that they don't.
Most people think, well, if Ijust got a girl, that would be
this for me, then she wouldfulfill the things that I want,
even though everything in theirhead knows she can't provide for
me what my heart actually needs.
But I firmly believe deep down,if I just worship that it will
(16:35):
give me what I want.
It's the same thing.
People do this with money.
If I just had this, then thiswould provide for me what I
think I need on the inside, eventhough, if we're being honest,
it does not.
Statistically it does not.
The wealthiest people that weknow are also the most depressed
people that we know, andbankrupt people that we know are
(16:56):
also the most depressed peoplethat we know and bankrupt people
that we know.
If I just had this house, if mykid just was a little bit
different in this area, if Ijust had this, if I just had
that, and then we will pay time,talent, treasure, whatever to
those things to get them toprovide for us what we want when
we should be relying onultimately.
God, god for those things, okay,so why do we have so many
(17:16):
statues and different things inthe Catholic church?
Why do we have so many iconsand everything else?
I'm having a hard timeconnecting with God.
Yeah, I would really like ifthere was something else that
would help me do a better job ofconnecting with God.
Now, I've inserted somethingnow that I need to help me
worship, so that I can envisionsomething else to help me get
there.
Okay, now I've createdsomething that I'm not supposed
(17:38):
to have, because I'm supposed toconnect with God, not these
things.
And the problem is, tim, isthis is it's pretty pervasive
and it makes pretty clear inthis whole bit here.
Right, so you shouldn't makefor yourself an idol in the
likeness of anything that'sheaven or on earth.
I mean, you know, people haveworshiped the stars for forever
and all this kind of stuff.
I mean, I think what's going onwith aliens in a lot of ways
that, like the unhealthyfixations.
(17:59):
Again, I'll say it againwhatever is driving your
decisions, that isn't God is anidol, okay.
So if you're building your lifearound a particular thing, that
is not something that God iscalling you to do, or isn't
something that you've beencreated to do by God.
There's a problem there.
And then he says this God is ajealous God, which means what I
(18:21):
mean.
He desires you and he's notokay with you and your
girlfriend or whatever.
He's not okay with you pluswhatever it's him and you.
He's like a good husband thatis not going to allow his wife
to have side guys.
It's not going to work out.
Visiting the iniquity of thefathers on the children, on the
(18:43):
third and fourth generations,for those who hate me, but
showing loving kindness tothousands, to those who love me
and keep my commandments.
So let me give you a verypractical application for this
Generational sin man.
A father that's addicted toalcohol and loves alcohol is
worshiping at the altar ofalcohol, worshiping the idol of
alcohol, because he's trying toget from alcohol what he's
(19:04):
supposed to get from God.
And now his children alsostruggle with alcoholism and now
it runs in the family.
Okay, parents who have crazystandards for their son in this
area, or abusive parents havethis going on.
Well, it turns out that abusedpeople tend to abuse other
people.
It goes down the line God willgive you over to the idols that
(19:26):
you want to serve.
The problem is, when you servethose idols, you get the payment
that those idols give you,which tends to be death because
they can't actually give youlife.
Only Jesus can give you life.
Death because they can'tactually give you life.
Only Jesus can give you life.
One of my favorite stories inthe Bible.
That is maybe a weird one forsome people to think about when
I bring this up, but really isabout Achan.
(19:47):
Achan in Joshua chapter seven,I think seven or eight Might be
a bit of both.
I got to think about that Achanis actually.
Let me just pick it up realquick.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I'm trying to remember Aiken.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Aiken is the guy who basically is told they get a
mandate, hey, go into theseplaces, wipe them out.
I think it's AI that they'refighting against.
Yeah, joshua, chapter seven.
And they're told hey, don'ttake any of this stuff, don't
bring it home, it all needs togo, it all needs burned, it all
needs destroyed, Don't bringanything back.
(20:17):
And Aiken is the guy that takesa bunch of stuff and he puts it
in his tent, okay, and thenthey go out to war later and a
ton of people die and thenthey're like cool, we're going
to cast lots and find out whathappened.
Turns out this guy's got allthis stuff in his tent, which I
want to like get into that for asecond, because it's not like
(20:38):
their tents were miles apart.
You know how many people had toknow that he was hiding crap in
his tent.
You're telling me he brought,you know, gold and all kinds of
stuff and he buries it in histent and none of his neighbors
thought anything was weird wasgoing on.
He was digging out dirt fromthe inside and hauling stuff in
and putting it in, even if hedid it in the middle of the
night.
There's no way his familydidn't know and there's no way
(21:00):
the people around him didn'tknow, which means that he was
doing a bunch of crap and otherpeople knew it, but it wasn't a
big deal because it was in hisown home, right, which is what
we say about, like homosexualityand all kinds of stuff.
Now, it's their own home, it'sthem, it's not going to affect
me.
Then everybody goes out tobattle the next day and a bunch
of people, freaking, die becauseGod's not going to bless a
nation or a people that areallowing things like that to
(21:22):
happen without repercussions.
There's going to be stuff thatgoes on.
Anyways, they cast lots fallson his family and him and his
family are burnt to death andthen covered in stones as a
monument to remind people.
When you live your life thatway, that's how you end.
Now, remember, remember.
And there's.
The story is fascinating to mebecause man, god's been blessing
(21:43):
them and doing all this stuff.
They made it out of Egypt, theyparted the sea, they got all
these stories of everything thatGod did, fed them with manna in
the wilderness.
All these things they go in,they're wiping people out,
kicking butt, earlier, you know,the whole Jordan parts in front
of them and they, you know theywalk through on dry land, like
miracles have been happening.
The angel of the Lord shows up.
You got Jericho up to thispoint.
God is real and he is doingstuff.
(22:06):
And he's like, hey, don't touchthat.
And this guy's like you knowwhat though?
But then you think about it andthere's a reality here, like
okay, tim, you watch the BlackPearl.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
You know, pirates of the Caribbean, the Black Pearl,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
There's something about cursed treasure, isn't
there?
It's intriguing.
You know what I mean.
Or the Hobbit, or the Voyage ofthe Dawn Treader, or whatever
story you want to paint, there'salways some treasure that
you're not supposed to touch.
And there's a real oh.
I taught this the other day withmy kids because we were
watching the new Aladdin Rightand they go into this cave and
(22:40):
the deal is you can get thegenie's lamp, but don't touch
any of this other stuff, becauseif you touch any of this other
stuff you're going to die.
And what happens?
I get really infatuated by thistreasure.
I end up touching it, and thejoke is that he ends up cheating
death right in that story andgets out, and it works out for
him.
But there's something aboutcursed treasure that we
gravitate towards, even when weknow it won't have the outcome
(23:03):
that we want.
That's idolatry.
That's what I'm getting at.
Sheol and Abaddon are neversatisfied, nor the eyes of a man
ever satisfied, and so we havethis tendency in our guts to
worship things that we shouldnot, to venerate things that we
should not, to put in positionsof power things that we should
not, purely because we're tryingto get to God, but we're doing
(23:25):
it in ways that he said not toget to me, in Things like
sorcery.
I'm trying to gain power fromthe other side, and so I'm doing
these things and it's giving mesomething, but it's going to
take me to death.
This is the guts of idolatry.
So if the Bible is true andthere's one mediator between God
and man and it is God himself,jesus, then nothing else is
(23:48):
supposed to be a mediatorialthing for us to get what we want
, because it's in him that wemove and live and have our being
, so we have to put to deaththese deeds that it's talking
about in Colossians, chapterthree our tendency to want
desire and walk off for thingsthat we want to be God for us
(24:10):
because it's easier and we cancheck a box.
But it's not the real thing.
We're looking for a connectionback to God and we're willing to
settle for something other thanJesus.
That's what idolatry is.
Calvin said that the human heartis an idol-making factory.
We're just constantly coming upwith new things to put in front
of Jesus and follow instead ofJesus.
We're constantly looking forthings to fill the void in our
(24:31):
heart instead of Christ, because, if we're honest, we're not
okay with just Jesus.
We want something else.
We want something palpable thatwe can follow.
And Achan finds out the hardway that, even though he's
serving God and running afterGod, he has an idolatrous heart,
and that idolatrous heart leadshim to taking stuff that is
just stupid.
(24:51):
Like you're out in the middleof the wilderness, how are you
going to use, you know, a bunchof freaking gold and whatever
else.
Anyway, I need this though.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Right, he was probably thinking of his family.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I don't think he was Tim, you know, right before they
were all burst into flames anddied.
I just think, when we thinkabout idols and I just I'll try
to make it practical foreverybody idols, and I just I'll
try to make it practical foreverybody when you think about
idols, the movie the Pirates ofthe Caribbean is actually kind
of a good example, because whenyou touch the treasure, it
(25:23):
doesn't just touch you, it tendsto touch your whole family and
everyone around you.
And then you have all thesekinds of weird things, you know,
going on and you're wonderingwhy am I experiencing this and
how is this happening?
And you think you know theanswer is more treasure.
You think the answer is that,well, if I just had this, I'd
get away with it.
Oh, I just had that, I'd getaway.
Like idols never land and stayin one place, they're like rot.
(25:44):
They tend to touch everythingelse too, because once you have
the money, then you got to havethe girl.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And once you have the girl, then you're going to have
the job.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, and it becomes an entire worldview of getting
my gratification.
My desire is what I want that Ishould be getting from God,
from the wrong things.
Here's the picture you haveSolomon, who is the wisest and
richest man to ever exist on theplanet, thousands of concubines
, hundreds of wives, thousandsof concubines, hundreds of wives
(26:15):
, palaces, money, buildings,gardens, everything Writing
Ecclesiastes.
It's all meaningless, it sucks.
You just want to give the guy ahug afterwards because you're
like buddy.
What happened to you?
Like what happened Paul, inprison in Philippi, probably
(26:35):
walking around in excrement andurine, writing to people about
joy and how we've been giveneverything.
How is that possible?
One knows the substance andwhere to get joy and life and
how worship produces good things, real worship and one has been
(26:55):
caught up in eyes that are goingthe wrong way all the time.
Or his book, proverbs andEcclesiastes folly, which is a
false type of worship, whattakes you to meaninglessness and
a chasing after the wind.
And we are stupid.
We follow the wrong things allthe time.
This is everything that hewrites about in Romans 1.
Like another picture of thisTim.
(27:17):
That just drives me absolutelyinsane.
Okay, I'm just going to paintthis picture for you.
Adam and Eve in the garden.
All right, yeah, so we thinkabout this story.
It's like there's a tree in themiddle of the garden.
Why did God put it in themiddle of the garden?
How come it's there?
How come God couldn't just putit somewhere else?
You know what I mean.
It's super frustrating.
And it's apparently full of abunch of lush fruit and is
(27:40):
gorgeous, and Satan's just thereready to.
You know, pick you a freshfruit off this tree and do one
of those quick reels.
You know where they take theknife and slice open the fruit.
It's just the most beautifulthing you've ever seen Delicious
.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Delicious.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Exactly, butterflies show up, I'm like this is what
happened in the garden righthere.
It was one of these reels.
Okay, what blows my mind isthis what we tend to forget,
because I think of ouridolatrous hearts and our
emphasis on the wrong things, isthat God put them in a garden,
which means that although thistree was there with fruit,
(28:15):
they're in a garden in thepresence of God, walking around
with a bunch of beautiful,delicious, freaking fruit, right
?
So the first idol in the Biblethat we really see is with Adam
and Eve, and they started tobelieve that God was holding out
on them.
And when Eve saw that the fruitwas beautiful and desirable for
(28:36):
gaining knowledge, she took itand she eats it, right In the
middle of a freaking garden withtons of fruit and perfection
and literally walking with thepresence of God.
He was not robbing them,literally, he had given them
everything.
You can fill your stomach withall of this everything.
How are you hungry for fruit inthe middle of a garden that's
full of fruit.
(28:57):
You get what I'm saying.
Like that's saying, hey, listen, there's one apple and it's
rotten.
Don't eat that, eat the rest ofthese apples.
And we're like how dare youdeny me the rotten apple?
And we know this is the case,because that's what happens to
us.
We think God is holding out onus when we're literally walking
with God.
God has given us himself, andEve fixated on the fruit long
(29:20):
enough to turn her back on allof it, on the entire garden.
They just couldn't get theirhearts off of what they didn't
have, even when it was the worstthing for them.
It's one of the mostshort-sighted moves in all of
human history, and Achan reallyis repeating the same thing.
He walks into this place, he'sbeen given a nation and blessing
(29:41):
, and God's doing miracles, andthey're going to the promised
land, and he's like you knowwhat, though?
But that, that gold, I'm goingto bury that in my tent.
That's happening, and he killseverybody in that process.
So I think it's worth talkingabout in this story.
When you're thinking about anidolatrous heart, just think
about yourself here for a second.
An idolatrous heart tends tomake light of God's commands,
(30:05):
like if you are struggling withidolatry and you are, and I am
too our tendency is to downplayor doubt God's good character
with regard to his commands,which is why the Ten
Commandments are so key.
We talked about this last week.
Right, god has given us fencesso we don't get eaten by wolves.
But if you doubt the fence, youdoubt God's character, you
(30:27):
doubt that love.
Then you will start to make foryourself idols, and idols are,
I wonder, what's on the otherside of that fence.
I bet it's better.
I bet God's not actually tryingto take care of me, and you
start to walk that direction.
So you know, you got to askyourself the question are you
making light of the commandsthat God has given you in your
life?
If you are, then you're alreadystruggling with an idolatrous
heart because you don't doubtthe commands for their own sake.
(30:47):
You doubt the commands for whatyou think is on the other side
that will take better care ofyou than God.
Like in this story, achanconvinces himself somehow that
it's not hurting anybody else.
If I take this, it's not a bigdeal, and I think sin is always
trying to get you settled forsomething silly when God is
trying to offer you the promisedland, but you're just not
(31:09):
willing to trust him or wait, sowe'll take something else
instead.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Well, Saul did the same thing I'm thinking of the
story, you know, when he'ssupposed to kill all those
Anakites, and he ended up takingthe king, taking all the best
things you know.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Totally yeah, yeah, and he's like well we'll keep
the sheep.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Here's a, I guess, bring up to the idol thing, man.
If I, if my family, needs moreincome or something, I didn't
get a second job, am I makingthat an idol now?
Cause I'm not relying on God toprovide anymore.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, I think.
If it's, um, I think if it's,if it's making decisions for you
instead of God, yes, so thinkabout it this way Am I willing
to sin to get what God hasalready told me I could have?
And if you are willing to sinto get the good thing that God
is saying I'll already give youin my good timing and whether
you want to do it, then, yeah,you have an idol, because what
you're saying is I'm willing toeat the fruit so that I can have
(32:06):
the fruit faster instead ofwalking across the street and
getting the fruit there.
Now, obviously, that's a simpleexplanation.
But if you actually trust Godand he's saying I'm a jealous
God, I'm not giving you toanybody else.
You've got to trust me.
It'd be like a kid going totheir friend's parent's house so
that he can have beer, insteadof saying, hey, if you wait a
(32:28):
little bit, I'll give you thebeer, but you need to be old
enough to actually drink.
You know what I mean.
It's that it's settling forsomething that's not better and
is going to take you somewhereyou don't want to go, which kind
of leads into the second thingAn idolatrous heart tends to lie
to you about God's goodness.
I don't think he's good.
He's holding out on me, he's.
He's.
He's not giving me the, the,the things that I want in my
(32:49):
life and man, have you ever beenjust bombarded with lies?
You know, like what does thatlook like for you?
Oh yeah, Daydream.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Okay, daydreaming yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, so Adam and Eve turned their back on an entire
garden because they startstaring at the thing that they
think that they want and I justyou can imagine.
It kind of gives you an idea ofwhat the lies were that they
were believing.
But I think the same thingabout Aiken.
What was he believing when hesaw that treasure?
He's going to help my family.
We're the poor family on theblock.
I'm just trying to get a littlebit ahead.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I've worked so hard, I deserve this yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I did more than everybody else, even though
that's really not the case.
Right, I want to give.
I want to give some clarityhere.
I want to give you some quicktools with this, because I do
think it's important.
When you're dealing with anidol in your own life, one of
the best things that you can dois actually confront it out loud
.
Okay, so if you are strugglingwith money, you're struggling
with you know, whatever the idolis, that you're like man.
(33:53):
I am flirting with, doingsomething that I shouldn't.
I'm spending way too much timethinking about taking that
cursed treasure.
Say something out loud, like dosomething to remind you of the
reality that you're actually inmy favorite stories, tim, have
you ever read the CS Lewis booksthe Lion, the Witch and the
(34:13):
Wardrobe, the whole Narnia, yeah, yeah, yeah, one of my favorite
ones in there is the SilverChair, and you got this guy
named Puddle Golem.
He's kind of like a frog man,he's like a weird.
He's like a version of Golem,but like a good version of Golem
.
He's like a happy well, when Isay happy, I mean dreary all the
time but kind of like.
His character is kind of likean uncle Psy, you know kind of
(34:34):
thing.
Anyways, they go into this deep, dark cave where they're trying
to rescue this guy and thiswitch, who's a snake and a
sorcerer and all kinds of stuff,starts playing this music and
putting them under a spell andconvincing them that there is no
sun, there is no upper world,there is none of that.
You're making fairy tales,you're doing all this stuff, and
so what he does is he stickshis foot in the fire and
(34:58):
basically says pain is one ofthe things that just wakes you
up to your senses, even whenyou're falling asleep and going
under a trance, and it's anoutward thing he has to do to
remind himself of the realitythat's actually there.
And one of the things that youcan do in your life like this is
something I'll do.
If I'm noticing myself staringat somebody that I shouldn't too
long, or I'm noticing myselfpaying attention to a desire too
(35:21):
long, or I'm allowing somethingto happen on a screen in front
of me too long, I will literallysay out loud nope, don't want
that, and I'll move on.
And just saying something outloud to confront the lie that is
, that's going to take care ofme or be a better mediator to me
than God is, helps immensely.
Bringing in backup helpsimmensely too.
Invite other people in.
(35:41):
Hey, you're struggling withsomething, call your buddy.
Hey, I suck right now.
Can you help me out?
Will you pray for me?
Just like, look, I'm going tobring up another verse to you
real quick.
Hey, I suck right now.
Can you help me out?
Will you pray for me?
Just walk like, look in, I'mgoing to bring up another verse
to you real quick.
Sorry, I apparently got a lot ofthese today and I realized I
did, but in Proverbs 24, one ofmy favorite right now this is
(36:02):
verse five and six.
A wise man is strong, and a manof knowledge increases in power
.
And he says this, for by wiseguidance you will wage war, and
the abundance of counselors,there's victory.
Okay, if you're struggling in afight against something, you
got an idolatrous heart man.
I got an idol in my life Listento other people because you're
(36:23):
under the treasurer's curseright now.
Like you're not payingattention, you're allowing
something to provide somethingfor you that it should not, and
if you don't bring in backup,oftentimes you're going to lose
when the fight actually callsand when it happens.
Been putting my heart on thisway longer than I should I've
(36:50):
been trying to get from it whatI'm only supposed to get from
you.
I'm asking you to change thisthing in me.
I'm sorry, I've been, I've been, and functionally the Bible
communicates it this way You'vebeen cheating on me Like all
throughout scripture.
There's this massive narrativein the old Testament, especially
of God telling Israel quitflirting with other nations,
like in some.
In some portions, especially inlike Ezekiel, he's like hey,
(37:12):
you're spreading your legs underevery tree on the trail, like
stop it, it's disgusting.
You're perverting yourself withall these other things that
can't take care of you.
And I've taken care of you fromthe time you were a baby.
I've raised you, I poured intoyou, I've given you the things
that you needed, I cleaned youup, I've gotten you out of that
area and I'm trying to bring youback.
Stop, literally, like thelanguage you use is quit whoring
(37:34):
yourself everywhere.
You know everywhere that you'regoing.
And I don't think we thinkabout it that way because we
downplay the commands of God.
We're thinking to ourselves oh,it's not that big of a deal,
it's fine.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And it's Just going to burn my family alive later
and bury us in a wild box.
You know, what sucks for me iswhen I hear stuff like that.
It's like, well, this guy didthat and they're great, they're
fine, they're moving on in lifewhere I want to be.
So what's the?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
big deal, I think you lie to yourself.
And then the third thing reallyan idolatrous heart does to him
is it makes you lie to otherpeople, because you take the
first lie right and then you'relike it's probably fine, and so
then you invite other people init.
Case in point when Aitken isburying stuff in his tent you
know what I mean and his family.
Now they're involved in the lie, now they have to be a part of
it.
The rot spreads.
(38:18):
Now the neighbors thatdefinitely saw you burying stuff
in your tent on your way backfrom the trip.
It wasn't like he had a littlepurse full.
You know what I mean.
There was stuff going on thatwas a problem.
And now other people areinvolved in that lie.
It's the same thing again withAdam and Eve.
Right, because Eve takes thefruit, because she believes it,
(38:39):
and then the first thing shedoes is give it to Adam, who's
standing there as well, and nowhe's involved in the same thing.
And then when God confronts him, he's like it wasn't me, it was
the woman that you put here,right?
And now I'm extending thisIdolatrous hearts tend to
believe lies themselves and thenextend lies to other people,
because if the father of lies isthe thing that is creating the
(39:04):
idols.
Then you begin to speak thelanguage of the idols instead of
the actual God that you'resupposed to serve and you become
part of this kind of nastycycle of lying about things that
are going on, which is why it'sfunny to me when I talk about
the Catholic Church, because Ifeel like they're constantly
stuck in some kind of We've gotto define things really clearly
here, because we want to looklike we're doing the right thing
(39:26):
, even though we're basicallygetting people to pray to Mary.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Okay great.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Well, that's a problem.
You're not praying to thestatue, you're praying through
the statue.
Right, okay, cool.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Well, let me ask you you actually brought this
question up years ago when wefirst got saved dude.
Is prayer a form of worship?
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I think you have to say that it is, and that's what
I was saying.
When we talk about, you know,dahlia, hyperdahlia and Latria,
and they're trying to parse itout and saying, well, some
prayer is worship and someprayer is not.
And I would say prayer isworship, so praying to saints is
idolatry.
Prayer is worship, so prayingthrough something is ultimately
(40:07):
idolatry, unless you're prayingthrough Christ to the Father,
which is praying to God, and ifnot, I think you're
participating in some kind oflie.
You're putting things in aplace where you shouldn't, and
you end up kind of hiding thingsand acting like, yeah, but it
helps me, though.
An area I see this is with I'mgoing to meddle I brought it up
(40:31):
on another podcast, though, so Idon't care Like yoga, oh yeah.
So I go and I do this thing andI make poses with my body that
are actual, like poses of Hindugods, with the person creating
this with the sole purpose ofsaying if I shape my body in
this way, then I'm inviting thatgod into me to give me peace
and whatever else to help me dothis Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Or if it's just stretching.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
And it just helps me, right.
So I tell myself it's juststretching, but if I'm being
honest, I'm very intrigued byall the things that go along
with it.
Now I got crystals on mybookshelf because those seem to
be helping me out too, and Istarted reading some things.
Oh, they're just for fun, right, it's not a big deal.
This to me is the same thingwith, like smoking weed.
You're like oh, it helps me,feel this, it helps me.
(41:14):
Well, what's supposed to helpyou feel that, jesus, there's an
authorized way to get peace andjoy and hope and all these
things.
And there's an unauthorized wayto get peace and joy and hope
and all these things that aresuperficial and not really the
real thing.
And your argument is I'll do abetter job serving God if he
(41:39):
lets me do the idolatry thingtoo.
Yeah, that's not going to work.
And then we try to kind of hidethat stuff, right, because
nobody goes around in churchsaying I smoke weed.
But a lot of people do, andthey're still going and
worshiping and tellingthemselves it's fine.
Luke 12 always scared the crapout of me.
There's nothing covered up thatwill not be revealed and
nothing hidden that will not beknown, according to.
Whatever you have said in thedark, it will be heard in the
(42:00):
light in which you havewhispered in the inner rooms,
will be proclaimed upon thehousetops.
I would say listen, don't dealin lies, whether that's lies
you're telling yourself aboutthe idolatrous heart that you're
struggling with, or whetherthat's lies you're having to
deal in now to get other peopleto be okay with the thing that
you're doing.
And I've seen this with stufflike homosexuality.
(42:22):
Man, somebody is a Christian,they have a really good friend,
and now they're reallystruggling with homosexuality
and they met somebody andthey've convinced them it's a
good, monogamous, finerelationship.
We both love Jesus.
We haven't abandoned this.
Okay, ultimately, that'sidolatry.
That's what that is.
And now you're dealing in liesto try to cover up what the
idolatry is that you're doing.
(42:42):
And now they're inviting youinto that lie too and trying to
convince you persuasively, likeSatan did with the apple, that
this is fine and God wouldn'tactually mean that he wouldn't
be holding out on you for thethings that he said right.
Therefore, consider the membersof your earthly body dead as it
pertains to impurity andimmorality and passions, evil
(43:02):
desires and greed which amountto idolatry.
This is the picture.
Don't let those things destroyyou the way that they want to.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Yeah, I think I was actually talking to my wife
about this, because for me it'salways been.
I had a conversation with you along time ago about when you
get a rosary.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Remember this and you were nice about it and stuff,
but I was telling you thereasons.
Like I don't believe that ithas power, but I believe it will
help me get into a better placewhere I could talk to God.
Yeah, idolatry.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
See, that's weird to me, I guess.
Yeah, because I don't believein the artifact itself, given
anything, rather than allowingmyself to commune with God.
Better, right, you know.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
But I would say that the rosary is what is it Right?
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Yeah, well, it's a, yeah, it's for the, it's a
prayer, basically.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Well, it's kind of a mediatorial element too.
I pick this up, I play withthese beads.
The beads represent the things.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
It's got the cross on it, usually Jesus on it too
Well, you follow a prayer alongwith the beads, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
And look if somebody is like hey, I hold some nails
while I pray because they remindme of what Christ did.
Ok, that, that makes a littlemore sense.
Or you light a candle when youpray the rosary is a little bit
more associated with praying therosary for one Agreed.
There's kind of a system behindthat particular thing and they
see a lot of these things asmediatorial, not as helpful for
remembering.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
It's different, and so look, but if I view it that
way, does it still matter?
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Here's another question, tim, could you play
like crazy Eights with tarotcards?
You know, or maybe there's abetter analogy?
It would be like the match gamewith tarot cards.
Oh, I find the same one.
Well, I'm not using it for thatpurpose, but I like the cards.
They've got cool pictures onthem and stuff.
Maybe just don't.
(44:50):
What's the attraction to it whenyou could use something else?
Why use that thing?
And I think it's dragon'streasure.
You know what I mean.
I think there's a reason thatwe're attracted to some things
that we maybe shouldn't be whensomething else would do, and
it's because there's somethingassociated with it that actually
is pungent.
(45:10):
It is strong.
There is a desire for me towant to do this, and I think we
as Christians should try toavoid those things and be very
careful about it, because theydon't ever stop there.
You know what I mean.
Again, idolatry is like rot itnever stays where it is, it
continues to grow and then youfind yourself in a place where
(45:31):
you don't want to be, which isreally the fourth thing that
idolatry does.
And even in this story withAiken and the story any story in
the Bible where somebody walksin, let's say, in line with
their idolatrous heart or theidolatry that they're struggling
with.
It lies to you about your future.
It tells you this will actuallyhelp me.
This will be good If I takethis treasure, if I eat this
(45:54):
apple, if I sleep with this uh,bathsheba, you know, whatever it
is, this will be a good outcome.
It will provide for me thething that I actually want.
And everybody knows if you takethe dragon's treasure, it's
cursed you.
It does not go well, but youconvince yourself in the moment.
This will help me get to theplace that I want to go, but it
(46:15):
does not take you to the placethat you want to go.
Pick any idol.
That's how it works.
I mean, it might work for you.
For a second you feel prettypumped about it, until you don't
feel pumped about it at all,and now I literally you know
that's why I like the story ofthe black pearl right?
Like you now, I literally can'ttaste food.
But I'm going to be honest withyou.
(46:36):
People, tim, that havestruggled with addictions, with
drugs, that's literally wherethey're at.
Food doesn't taste good anymore.
It doesn't matter, I have tohave this or nothing else is
good.
We know these things internally.
But if you stare at the idol,the treasure, long enough, you
become captivated by it.
Sheol and Abaddon are neversatisfied.
Neither your eyes Close them.
(46:58):
Fix them on Jesus, get youreyes up on things that will
actually take care of you, andit goes a long way.
And I do think, look, I dothink there can be helpful tools
to remind you of who Jesus is.
I'm not saying there can't beTo my point.
I don't think shows that depictJesus are in sin of breaking the
second commandment.
(47:19):
Although I'm OK If somebodylands there, I get at least why
they want to be careful.
I think we've taken it waybeyond those things.
And I would say, man, whenthere's arenas full of people
for sports events, when they'rethrowing their hands up in the
air, they're worshiping, youknow what I mean.
They're praising.
They painted their bodies,they're going through weird,
freaking tailgating ritualsbefore the game.
(47:41):
I won't change my socks becausethey haven't lost right Like
the superstition is the wordthat we use.
All we're saying is I have astrange attraction to try to
leverage this thing as amediator to get what I want.
And again, the secondcommandment is about how God is
not to be worshipped.
Ultimately, don't worship methrough these things and don't
(48:01):
try to get from other thingswhich you're only supposed to
get through me, and our tendencyis to do that with the stuff
around us.
We see these horoscopes andpeople trying to define the
future with the stars, and wesee this with literally.
We call people icons.
You know what I mean?
It's like literally, it's likeanother word for idol.
That's all that is, and it's aproblem.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Hey man, thanks for the chat today.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Oh dang, has it been that long yeah?
Speaker 1 (48:29):
a little bit over actually.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Holy cow, I had no idea I was ranting that much I
wouldn't call it ranting no itis what it is.
But hey, listen, just like I wastelling you guys, pay attention
to what's going on with yourheart.
Confront that stuff out loud,invite back up if you're
actually struggling with it, andmake repentance and confession
a regular part of your day.
Part of your day is you want tostart clean with a real love
(48:54):
for God.
In the same way every day.
You would want to start with afresh love and an allegiance to
your bride or your husband oryour spouse or whatever
relationship you're in.
It's about allegiance to Godfirst, and then it's about
thinking through how youactually worship that God that
you love, and you don't do thatthrough other stuff or by
believing lies or walking in away that you shouldn't Focus on
the good things that God hasgiven you and trust his hand in
(49:15):
your life.
And if you start to let otherthings sneak into your life, I'm
telling you right now they'relying to you about outcomes,
they're going to make you a liarand they're going to hurt
everybody around you.
So keep it in mind.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Awesome, cool, thanks man.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Right on, guys.
Hey, have a blessed day.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Catch you.
Hey guys, welcome back to Navigate.
I'm with Justin Hart, justin,the man, justin.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Dude, we never are going to get the intro right.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I don't think so.
Not with you here.
I feel like when you're nothere, I feel like I do a great
job.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I nail it at night by myself, all the time when I'm
just practicing.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
But you're never not here.
So I'm here now, you not here.
I'm here now.
You never know, I'm here.
I'm here for you, tim.
All right, round two, round two, going through the Ten
Commandments.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
So the second one during my little research that I
do.
One of them was graven imagesand idols.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Is that the same thing?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
It kind of spells it out in a long way.
So Exodus 20, it says this.
It says I am a jealous Godvisiting the iniquities of the
fathers on the children and onthe third and fourth generation
(01:05):
of those who hate me, butshowing loving kindness to
thousands, to those who love meand keep my commandments.
So it's definitely a qualifiedstatement where he's not just
saying don't worship thesethings, but then he gives you
some hints about what they areand what the repercussions of
what those things are on yourfamily, which are huge, I mean.
(01:25):
So this is a big commandmentwith a lot going on with it.
Yeah, yeah.
So some people are like gravenimages.
Yeah, same thing, it's justengraved stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I always thought, like graven images, like can't
have pictures of Jesus in yourhouse, can't have a crucifix.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
That's a great question.
A lot of people think so, likethe big problem with the chosen
that a lot of people have is theGrave.
Is it breaking the secondcommandment by creating an image
that people are going topicture when they pray?
You know what I mean.
That's like oh, is this?
Are we allowed to pray and usethis as a prompt?
(02:01):
Are we not allowed to pray anduse this as a prompt?
I mean, we could really go downto the wormhole Like this this
is where you get into difficultywith um, like praying to saints
, am I, am I using this personto pray for me?
You get into this, especiallywith iconography and, uh, the
Orthodox church, which is a bigdeal right now, Like the largest
growing church in the world, isthe orthodox church, yeah, and
(02:23):
everybody's going back to itbecause it has this wonderful
iconography and deep liturgy andall this stuff.
The problem iconography like uh,iconography is basically the
created images or icons that areto assist in in worship oh,
okay so if I have, like a, apicture of jesus carved on a
cross, or if I have a statue ofChrist with, or a statue of Mary
(02:47):
or one of the saints or thingslike that, the Catholic Church
is very into this as well.
Yeah, so this is a big question, like when are you creating an
image that is helping youworship, or when are you
creating a mediator by which youare trying to worship through?
(03:08):
And it gets complicated quick,man, like there's some.
It's unfortunate, but I dothink it's important.
So when we jump in and we thinkabout idols and the second
commandment, really what we'reasking, the question is, or the
statement that's being made isdon't have anything you are
(03:30):
using to try to worship me thatis not me.
Don't use anything as a God, afalse God, something for a
religious experience.
Don't let anything basicallybecome a mediator for you in
Jesus other than Jesus, but moreso than that, don't let
anything be Jesus to you thatisn't Jesus.
So it's both things.
(03:51):
Really, if you wanted to thinkabout it this way, you could say
something along the lines ofthe first commandment is I'm
trying to think of the best wayto communicate this.
I guess the first commandmentforbids worshiping a false God.
You should only worship God.
I guess the first commandmentforbids, you know, worshiping a
false God, you should onlyworship God.
And then the second commandmentis really forbidding worshiping
(04:12):
the true God in a false manner.
It might be a good way to stateit In a false manner.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So, like, if I'm worshiping and people are
created to worship, which is whyI'm saying this it might sound
confusing to you if I say, oh,worshiping the false god in a
false manner.
Well, it's like.
Well, doesn't that sound likethe third commandment?
Sure, we'll get into some ofthat stuff later and how that
functionally plays out, but whatI would say is you can have an
(04:46):
idol, either by having a godthat is not the true god, that
you have placed in the place ofgod and now are praising it and
worshiping it in that sense, oryou can create a false mediator
to God that is not God, becausethere's actually only one
mediator between God and man theman, jesus Christ, as 1 Timothy
2 tells us.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
When you're talking about people who pray to the
saints like false mediatorsthere.
Right, yeah, exactly, On behalf, right.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Exactly so the difficulty then becomes is
someone a mediator for you,which is a problem?
And then, if you get into theCatholic Church, you get things
like what's called dulya,hyperdulia and latria.
Latria is the worship that isgiven to God alone.
Only that worship can go to him.
Worship can go to him.
But hyperdulia is like well,it's a type of reverence that we
(05:25):
have, veneration that we havefor something which functionally
looks exactly the same from theoutside.
But they feel better about itif I give one a name and the
other not, even though I'm kindof doing the same thing.
So it becomes sticky.
So, to bring it back, sorry,I'm like wow, we got into the
weeds really fast there You'vehonestly triggered something, so
yeah, Okay, well, we got intothe weeds really fast there.
(05:46):
You've honestly triggeredsomething.
So, yeah, okay, well, we can gothere.
I'm happy to do that, happy tojump in and have that
conversation, but a lot ofpeople are worshiping false gods
or, let's say, idols, and Iwant to get into what that is
because I think that's important.
And then the second thing iswhat are false ways to worship
God by way of idolatry?
That are also problems, and Ithink we there's a lot of
(06:09):
conversation about this throughchurch history Like RC Sproul,
who I dearly love.
I love RC Sproul but he has noproblem with paintings of Jesus.
He has no problems withpaintings of the Lord and that
evoking in us a sense of oh,it's a storytelling.
He's not praying to the picture, but he would say that's
totally fine.
Some people throughout churchhistory would say you should
never even attempt to paintJesus, lest you create an image
(06:33):
that is not actually the realthing, that then people come to
venerate and use for prayer in amediatorial sense, which is not
actually the right mediator.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
There's that famous painting of Jesus from that girl
who claims to have gone toheaven.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, yeah yeah, I can't remember the name of her
and she writes, she paints likeBuddhist stuff and all kinds,
like she totally went off therails.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I don't know much about it, I just like a little
documentary about it.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
But you know, I see that image everywhere.
Yeah, a lot of people see thatand they are like in the
catacombs of Jesus.
You know what I mean.
So, like in my head, I'm like Idon't think there's a problem
with trying to tell a story ordepict Christ.
So I actually don't have aproblem with the chosen.
I don't think they're breakingthe second commandment
personally by giving a poeticrendition with the understanding
(07:23):
that no, this is not actuallyJesus and you should not pray to
this person's face when you'repraying.
He's trying to display whatChrist did in an artistic
rendering.
The problem is that there is aline there, because there's been
so many times throughouthistory where people will take
an image and now the imagebecomes sacred.
The big joke about this is likeum, who's the guy?
(07:45):
Tim, who plays?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
uh, obi-wan I was just thinking that story, yeah,
it's the same thing, yeahexactly so it's like you know,
somebody had a statue of thatguy it was a picture of obi-wan
kenobi yeah, and they thought itwas jesus right and they're
like oh well, I pray to thatright.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
So they're using an icon to pray to, with the
assumption that it's endowedwith some, let's say, specific
mediatorial value.
And I would say no that is notthe case.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I would agree with you there.
But aren't there some of thesethings there to help you kind of
get your heart positioned forworship better?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So here's, another difficult thing, man, we got
into the weeds quick here.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
I'm really into this stuff.
It helps me, so let's go there.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So this is difficult.
When somebody says somethinglike a worship pastor says I'm
here to usher you into thepresence of God.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
What they just said is I'm now your mediator and
really your worship isn't goingto be the same unless I'm here.
No, incorrect, not good,although people can worship and,
let's say, the manifestpresence of God could fall in a
really cool way.
I'm like amen, but it wasn'tbecause that dude with tight
(08:59):
pants was singing a song.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
I agree, and now, he did that for me, but doesn't the
music get you there?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I would say, to the degree that something helps you
focus on the real thing, it'sgood to the degree that it
doesn't, it's a problem and alot of people have a hard time
distinguishing.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Right, okay, so, um, like old Anglican churches I
love this used to put the choirin the back and you would sing
forward like pews facing forward, and they would have like
stained glass which haddifferent pictures of different
scenes from the Bible and thingsand the goal was not to focus
on the people but focus on whoGod was and the stories.
The problem is there.
Even there, you're looking atthe glass or you're focusing on
(09:37):
the glass thing and you'retrying to pray through that
somehow or sing through it.
What's the line there?
How's that happening?
Some people JI Packer, his bookKnowing God he writes a lot
about this.
He's a big thing.
Like you, should not have adepiction of Jesus on a shirt.
You shouldn't have a depictionof Jesus on the cross.
Display the cross but don't putJesus on there, because it's
(09:58):
breaking the second commandment.
I think he's on to something inthat we're making things
trivial when we put Jesus on ashirt or put a guitar in his
hands of some depiction ofChrist that actually downplays
the significance of who he is orwhat he did.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I don't see a problem with the crucifix stuff, though
.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
I mean, that's what the cross is for Well, we'll get
into taking the name of God invain, which is where I'll really
go down that wormhole, andwe'll talk more about how to
empty the name of God of itssignificance or empty God of you
know.
In some sense, we would emptythe God, a God of the value or
(10:36):
weight of what his name and whohe is should represent.
I don't want to get there yet.
We'll get there a little bitlater.
Remember, these first fourcommandments are all about God,
right, and the next six are allabout us and how we act in light
of those things.
So, loving God, loving othersright, and how we do that.
Well, but in this particulararea we're talking about okay,
how then am I supposed toworship God?
(10:57):
That's the picture, and thereality is we are made to
worship you are made by Goduniquely to give praise and
worship to the one who createdyou in his own image.
Worship pours out of men,regardless of what they actually
functionally believe.
(11:18):
Atheist praise Atheist worship.
Agnostics praise Agnosticsworship.
People are hardwired to worship.
In fact, I saw a statistic thatit was.
Theynostics praise.
Agnostics worship.
People are hardwired to worship.
In fact, I saw a statistic thatit was.
They did some study, but it wasbasically like men are
hardwired to believe in thingsgreater than themselves and
praise regardless of what theybelieve.
It's like they're almost wiredto believe in God, whether they
(11:39):
want to or not.
So think about our culturetoday, tim.
Like what are things thatpeople functionally worship now?
And by this what I mean iswhatever is driving your
decisions that isn't from God,like that's an idol.
Whatever is driving yourdecisions that isn't something
that God has said should driveyour decisions is functionally
(11:59):
an idol.
So like, if you are, is thislike just sin or yeah Well, it's
a type of sin, right?
And I would say, of all thecommandments, this is the most
difficult hands down, becauseeverything at some level, kind
of I guess you could say,becomes an idol.
Like, let me read this to you.
This is Colossians 3, verse 5.
(12:21):
All right, you ready for this?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Let me pull this, colossians 3?
.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, colossians 3, verse 5.
All right, you ready for this?
Let me pull this, colossians 3.
Yeah, colossians 3, verse 5says put to death, therefore,
what is earthly in you.
Okay, that's important, right,sexual immorality, impurity,
passion, evil, desire andcovetousness.
And then it says this, which isidolatry.
So I would like to say, hey,idolatry is just making a graven
(12:49):
image and worshiping that.
What Paul does in Colossians istake it out of the realm of
things and actually make them,um, let's say, patterns or heart
conditions for what you'reactually trying to run after.
Okay, so here's the like.
Here's the question, tim whydid people worship idols?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
To get an answer for something.
Get stuff, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Get stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I do this, so this gives me what I want.
I'll burn incense for the rainGod so that he gives me rain,
right, I will give crops to thisparticular thing so my wife
will have a baby.
I'll give money to thisparticular thing so that these
people don't invade.
I'll sacrifice my child so thatI have a future.
(13:37):
Okay, I want to like bring thisback to our culture right now.
We can get there.
Do you see what I'm saying?
So, really, what it's saying is, hey, the condition of the
heart is to go to things thatare not God to give, what only
God is supposed to give you.
And so how this plays out inall kinds of circumstances is
(14:00):
when you want something andyou're willing to sin or go out
of your way, go to a differentplace or do something that God
hasn't ordained to get it, thatis an idol in your life.
That's what it is.
Proverbs 27, 20 is one of myfavorite verses on this.
He says Sheol and Abaddon arenever satisfied.
Nor are the eyes of a man eversatisfied Like, literally, sheol
(14:22):
and Abaddon.
The chasm which every darkthing is cast into it is a
bottomless void.
He's like.
You know what's like that?
Men's eyes Just staring into,staring at, desiring, wanting
whatever.
And obviously man here is, youknow, mankind.
But our tendency is to try toget from things that we weren't
(14:45):
meant to get what only God issupposed to give us, and we'll
look for mediators to give usthose things.
So when he's saying, hey, don'tcarve for yourself graven
images, don't make for yourselfan idol of the likeness what is
in heaven above, or on earthbelow or whatever, why?
Because he's saying, thosethings you're trying to go to to
get what you're only supposedto get from me, you come to me,
(15:07):
not to something else.
Quit making false gods.
We brought up the ox or thecalf in Exodus right?
Well, we'll just say this is theGod that got us out there, and
we'll worship and giveveneration to this.
What are they saying?
We'll replace God.
This is a good second, andit'll give us what we need right
now, so I'll settle for this.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
That whole thing to me is still weird.
Why would you build somethinglike that and expect power to
come from it?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I think, because we're made to worship, our
tendency is to create things,see wonder and beauty in them.
Imagine this, tim you look at agiant gold statue.
It's beautifully, artisticallydone.
It has jewels and ornamentsbuilt into it.
It's gorgeous.
Okay, something in you is like,wow, that's beautiful, right.
(15:52):
And then your tendency is totake it a step further and say
man, I wonder if it has somekind of magical powers.
I wonder if it has the abilityto do something for me.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
I never see it that way, but yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Well, okay, so like.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Me personally, not just in general, just me.
I just don't know how peoplecan get there.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
That's interesting.
I'm surprised to think that Ithink actually most people think
that things will accomplishthings for them all the time,
that they don't.
Most people think, well, if Ijust got a girl, that would be
this for me, then she wouldfulfill the things that I want,
even though everything in theirhead knows she can't provide for
me what my heart actually needs.
But I firmly believe deep down,if I just worship that it will
(16:35):
give me what I want.
It's the same thing.
People do this with money.
If I just had this, then thiswould provide for me what I
think I need on the inside, eventhough, if we're being honest,
it does not.
Statistically it does not.
The wealthiest people that weknow are also the most depressed
people that we know, andbankrupt people that we know are
(16:56):
also the most depressed peoplethat we know and bankrupt people
that we know.
If I just had this house, if mykid just was a little bit
different in this area, if Ijust had this, if I just had
that, and then we will pay time,talent, treasure, whatever to
those things to get them toprovide for us what we want when
we should be relying onultimately.
God, god for those things, okay,so why do we have so many
(17:16):
statues and different things inthe Catholic church?
Why do we have so many iconsand everything else?
I'm having a hard timeconnecting with God.
Yeah, I would really like ifthere was something else that
would help me do a better job ofconnecting with God.
Now, I've inserted somethingnow that I need to help me
worship, so that I can envisionsomething else to help me get
there.
Okay, now I've createdsomething that I'm not supposed
(17:38):
to have, because I'm supposed toconnect with God, not these
things.
And the problem is, tim, isthis is it's pretty pervasive
and it makes pretty clear inthis whole bit here.
Right, so you shouldn't makefor yourself an idol in the
likeness of anything that'sheaven or on earth.
I mean, you know, people haveworshiped the stars for forever
and all this kind of stuff.
I mean, I think what's going onwith aliens in a lot of ways
that, like the unhealthyfixations.
(17:59):
Again, I'll say it againwhatever is driving your
decisions, that isn't God is anidol, okay.
So if you're building your lifearound a particular thing, that
is not something that God iscalling you to do, or isn't
something that you've beencreated to do by God.
There's a problem there.
And then he says this God is ajealous God, which means what I
(18:21):
mean.
He desires you and he's notokay with you and your
girlfriend or whatever.
He's not okay with you pluswhatever it's him and you.
He's like a good husband thatis not going to allow his wife
to have side guys.
It's not going to work out.
Visiting the iniquity of thefathers on the children, on the
(18:43):
third and fourth generations,for those who hate me, but
showing loving kindness tothousands, to those who love me
and keep my commandments.
So let me give you a verypractical application for this
Generational sin man.
A father that's addicted toalcohol and loves alcohol is
worshiping at the altar ofalcohol, worshiping the idol of
alcohol, because he's trying toget from alcohol what he's
(19:04):
supposed to get from God.
And now his children alsostruggle with alcoholism and now
it runs in the family.
Okay, parents who have crazystandards for their son in this
area, or abusive parents havethis going on.
Well, it turns out that abusedpeople tend to abuse other
people.
It goes down the line God willgive you over to the idols that
(19:26):
you want to serve.
The problem is, when you servethose idols, you get the payment
that those idols give you,which tends to be death because
they can't actually give youlife.
Only Jesus can give you life.
Death because they can'tactually give you life.
Only Jesus can give you life.
One of my favorite stories inthe Bible.
That is maybe a weird one forsome people to think about when
I bring this up, but really isabout Achan.
(19:47):
Achan in Joshua chapter seven,I think seven or eight Might be
a bit of both.
I got to think about that Achanis actually.
Let me just pick it up realquick.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I'm trying to remember Aiken.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Aiken is the guy who basically is told they get a
mandate, hey, go into theseplaces, wipe them out.
I think it's AI that they'refighting against.
Yeah, joshua, chapter seven.
And they're told hey, don'ttake any of this stuff, don't
bring it home, it all needs togo, it all needs burned, it all
needs destroyed, Don't bringanything back.
(20:17):
And Aiken is the guy that takesa bunch of stuff and he puts it
in his tent, okay, and thenthey go out to war later and a
ton of people die and thenthey're like cool, we're going
to cast lots and find out whathappened.
Turns out this guy's got allthis stuff in his tent, which I
want to like get into that for asecond, because it's not like
(20:38):
their tents were miles apart.
You know how many people had toknow that he was hiding crap in
his tent.
You're telling me he brought,you know, gold and all kinds of
stuff and he buries it in histent and none of his neighbors
thought anything was weird wasgoing on.
He was digging out dirt fromthe inside and hauling stuff in
and putting it in, even if hedid it in the middle of the
night.
There's no way his familydidn't know and there's no way
(21:00):
the people around him didn'tknow, which means that he was
doing a bunch of crap and otherpeople knew it, but it wasn't a
big deal because it was in hisown home, right, which is what
we say about, like homosexualityand all kinds of stuff.
Now, it's their own home, it'sthem, it's not going to affect
me.
Then everybody goes out tobattle the next day and a bunch
of people, freaking, die becauseGod's not going to bless a
nation or a people that areallowing things like that to
(21:22):
happen without repercussions.
There's going to be stuff thatgoes on.
Anyways, they cast lots fallson his family and him and his
family are burnt to death andthen covered in stones as a
monument to remind people.
When you live your life thatway, that's how you end.
Now, remember, remember.
And there's.
The story is fascinating to mebecause man, god's been blessing
(21:43):
them and doing all this stuff.
They made it out of Egypt, theyparted the sea, they got all
these stories of everything thatGod did, fed them with manna in
the wilderness.
All these things they go in,they're wiping people out,
kicking butt, earlier, you know,the whole Jordan parts in front
of them and they, you know theywalk through on dry land, like
miracles have been happening.
The angel of the Lord shows up.
You got Jericho up to thispoint.
God is real and he is doingstuff.
(22:06):
And he's like, hey, don't touchthat.
And this guy's like you knowwhat though?
But then you think about it andthere's a reality here, like
okay, tim, you watch the BlackPearl.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
You know, pirates of the Caribbean, the Black Pearl,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
There's something about cursed treasure, isn't
there?
It's intriguing.
You know what I mean.
Or the Hobbit, or the Voyage ofthe Dawn Treader, or whatever
story you want to paint, there'salways some treasure that
you're not supposed to touch.
And there's a real oh.
I taught this the other day withmy kids because we were
watching the new Aladdin Rightand they go into this cave and
(22:40):
the deal is you can get thegenie's lamp, but don't touch
any of this other stuff, becauseif you touch any of this other
stuff you're going to die.
And what happens?
I get really infatuated by thistreasure.
I end up touching it, and thejoke is that he ends up cheating
death right in that story andgets out, and it works out for
him.
But there's something aboutcursed treasure that we
gravitate towards, even when weknow it won't have the outcome
(23:03):
that we want.
That's idolatry.
That's what I'm getting at.
Sheol and Abaddon are neversatisfied, nor the eyes of a man
ever satisfied, and so we havethis tendency in our guts to
worship things that we shouldnot, to venerate things that we
should not, to put in positionsof power things that we should
not, purely because we're tryingto get to God, but we're doing
(23:25):
it in ways that he said not toget to me, in Things like
sorcery.
I'm trying to gain power fromthe other side, and so I'm doing
these things and it's giving mesomething, but it's going to
take me to death.
This is the guts of idolatry.
So if the Bible is true andthere's one mediator between God
and man and it is God himself,jesus, then nothing else is
(23:48):
supposed to be a mediatorialthing for us to get what we want
, because it's in him that wemove and live and have our being
, so we have to put to deaththese deeds that it's talking
about in Colossians, chapterthree our tendency to want
desire and walk off for thingsthat we want to be God for us
(24:10):
because it's easier and we cancheck a box.
But it's not the real thing.
We're looking for a connectionback to God and we're willing to
settle for something other thanJesus.
That's what idolatry is.
Calvin said that the human heartis an idol-making factory.
We're just constantly coming upwith new things to put in front
of Jesus and follow instead ofJesus.
We're constantly looking forthings to fill the void in our
(24:31):
heart instead of Christ, because, if we're honest, we're not
okay with just Jesus.
We want something else.
We want something palpable thatwe can follow.
And Achan finds out the hardway that, even though he's
serving God and running afterGod, he has an idolatrous heart,
and that idolatrous heart leadshim to taking stuff that is
just stupid.
(24:51):
Like you're out in the middleof the wilderness, how are you
going to use, you know, a bunchof freaking gold and whatever
else.
Anyway, I need this though.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Right, he was probably thinking of his family.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I don't think he was Tim, you know, right before they
were all burst into flames anddied.
I just think, when we thinkabout idols and I just I'll try
to make it practical foreverybody idols, and I just I'll
try to make it practical foreverybody when you think about
idols, the movie the Pirates ofthe Caribbean is actually kind
of a good example, because whenyou touch the treasure, it
(25:23):
doesn't just touch you, it tendsto touch your whole family and
everyone around you.
And then you have all thesekinds of weird things, you know,
going on and you're wonderingwhy am I experiencing this and
how is this happening?
And you think you know theanswer is more treasure.
You think the answer is that,well, if I just had this, I'd
get away with it.
Oh, I just had that, I'd getaway.
Like idols never land and stayin one place, they're like rot.
(25:44):
They tend to touch everythingelse too, because once you have
the money, then you got to havethe girl.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And once you have the girl, then you're going to have
the job.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, and it becomes an entire worldview of getting
my gratification.
My desire is what I want that Ishould be getting from God,
from the wrong things.
Here's the picture you haveSolomon, who is the wisest and
richest man to ever exist on theplanet, thousands of concubines
, hundreds of wives, thousandsof concubines, hundreds of wives
(26:15):
, palaces, money, buildings,gardens, everything Writing
Ecclesiastes.
It's all meaningless, it sucks.
You just want to give the guy ahug afterwards because you're
like buddy.
What happened to you?
Like what happened Paul, inprison in Philippi, probably
(26:35):
walking around in excrement andurine, writing to people about
joy and how we've been giveneverything.
How is that possible?
One knows the substance andwhere to get joy and life and
how worship produces good things, real worship and one has been
(26:55):
caught up in eyes that are goingthe wrong way all the time.
Or his book, proverbs andEcclesiastes folly, which is a
false type of worship, whattakes you to meaninglessness and
a chasing after the wind.
And we are stupid.
We follow the wrong things allthe time.
This is everything that hewrites about in Romans 1.
Like another picture of thisTim.
(27:17):
That just drives me absolutelyinsane.
Okay, I'm just going to paintthis picture for you.
Adam and Eve in the garden.
All right, yeah, so we thinkabout this story.
It's like there's a tree in themiddle of the garden.
Why did God put it in themiddle of the garden?
How come it's there?
How come God couldn't just putit somewhere else?
You know what I mean.
It's super frustrating.
And it's apparently full of abunch of lush fruit and is
(27:40):
gorgeous, and Satan's just thereready to.
You know, pick you a freshfruit off this tree and do one
of those quick reels.
You know where they take theknife and slice open the fruit.
It's just the most beautifulthing you've ever seen Delicious
.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Delicious.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Exactly, butterflies show up, I'm like this is what
happened in the garden righthere.
It was one of these reels.
Okay, what blows my mind isthis what we tend to forget,
because I think of ouridolatrous hearts and our
emphasis on the wrong things, isthat God put them in a garden,
which means that although thistree was there with fruit,
(28:15):
they're in a garden in thepresence of God, walking around
with a bunch of beautiful,delicious, freaking fruit, right
?
So the first idol in the Biblethat we really see is with Adam
and Eve, and they started tobelieve that God was holding out
on them.
And when Eve saw that the fruitwas beautiful and desirable for
(28:36):
gaining knowledge, she took itand she eats it, right In the
middle of a freaking garden withtons of fruit and perfection
and literally walking with thepresence of God.
He was not robbing them,literally, he had given them
everything.
You can fill your stomach withall of this everything.
How are you hungry for fruit inthe middle of a garden that's
full of fruit.
(28:57):
You get what I'm saying.
Like that's saying, hey, listen, there's one apple and it's
rotten.
Don't eat that, eat the rest ofthese apples.
And we're like how dare youdeny me the rotten apple?
And we know this is the case,because that's what happens to
us.
We think God is holding out onus when we're literally walking
with God.
God has given us himself, andEve fixated on the fruit long
(29:20):
enough to turn her back on allof it, on the entire garden.
They just couldn't get theirhearts off of what they didn't
have, even when it was the worstthing for them.
It's one of the mostshort-sighted moves in all of
human history, and Achan reallyis repeating the same thing.
He walks into this place, he'sbeen given a nation and blessing
(29:41):
, and God's doing miracles, andthey're going to the promised
land, and he's like you knowwhat, though?
But that, that gold, I'm goingto bury that in my tent.
That's happening, and he killseverybody in that process.
So I think it's worth talkingabout in this story.
When you're thinking about anidolatrous heart, just think
about yourself here for a second.
An idolatrous heart tends tomake light of God's commands,
(30:05):
like if you are struggling withidolatry and you are, and I am
too our tendency is to downplayor doubt God's good character
with regard to his commands,which is why the Ten
Commandments are so key.
We talked about this last week.
Right, god has given us fencesso we don't get eaten by wolves.
But if you doubt the fence, youdoubt God's character, you
(30:27):
doubt that love.
Then you will start to make foryourself idols, and idols are,
I wonder, what's on the otherside of that fence.
I bet it's better.
I bet God's not actually tryingto take care of me, and you
start to walk that direction.
So you know, you got to askyourself the question are you
making light of the commandsthat God has given you in your
life?
If you are, then you're alreadystruggling with an idolatrous
heart because you don't doubtthe commands for their own sake.
(30:47):
You doubt the commands for whatyou think is on the other side
that will take better care ofyou than God.
Like in this story, achanconvinces himself somehow that
it's not hurting anybody else.
If I take this, it's not a bigdeal, and I think sin is always
trying to get you settled forsomething silly when God is
trying to offer you the promisedland, but you're just not
(31:09):
willing to trust him or wait, sowe'll take something else
instead.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Well, Saul did the same thing I'm thinking of the
story, you know, when he'ssupposed to kill all those
Anakites, and he ended up takingthe king, taking all the best
things you know.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Totally yeah, yeah, and he's like well we'll keep
the sheep.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Here's a, I guess, bring up to the idol thing, man.
If I, if my family, needs moreincome or something, I didn't
get a second job, am I makingthat an idol now?
Cause I'm not relying on God toprovide anymore.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, I think.
If it's, um, I think if it's,if it's making decisions for you
instead of God, yes, so thinkabout it this way Am I willing
to sin to get what God hasalready told me I could have?
And if you are willing to sinto get the good thing that God
is saying I'll already give youin my good timing and whether
you want to do it, then, yeah,you have an idol, because what
you're saying is I'm willing toeat the fruit so that I can have
(32:06):
the fruit faster instead ofwalking across the street and
getting the fruit there.
Now, obviously, that's a simpleexplanation.
But if you actually trust Godand he's saying I'm a jealous
God, I'm not giving you toanybody else.
You've got to trust me.
It'd be like a kid going totheir friend's parent's house so
that he can have beer, insteadof saying, hey, if you wait a
(32:28):
little bit, I'll give you thebeer, but you need to be old
enough to actually drink.
You know what I mean.
It's that it's settling forsomething that's not better and
is going to take you somewhereyou don't want to go, which kind
of leads into the second thingAn idolatrous heart tends to lie
to you about God's goodness.
I don't think he's good.
He's holding out on me, he's.
He's.
He's not giving me the, the,the things that I want in my
(32:49):
life and man, have you ever beenjust bombarded with lies?
You know, like what does thatlook like for you?
Oh yeah, Daydream.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Okay, daydreaming yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, so Adam and Eve turned their back on an entire
garden because they startstaring at the thing that they
think that they want and I justyou can imagine.
It kind of gives you an idea ofwhat the lies were that they
were believing.
But I think the same thingabout Aiken.
What was he believing when hesaw that treasure?
He's going to help my family.
We're the poor family on theblock.
I'm just trying to get a littlebit ahead.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I've worked so hard, I deserve this yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I did more than everybody else, even though
that's really not the case.
Right, I want to give.
I want to give some clarityhere.
I want to give you some quicktools with this, because I do
think it's important.
When you're dealing with anidol in your own life, one of
the best things that you can dois actually confront it out loud
.
Okay, so if you are strugglingwith money, you're struggling
with you know, whatever the idolis, that you're like man.
(33:53):
I am flirting with, doingsomething that I shouldn't.
I'm spending way too much timethinking about taking that
cursed treasure.
Say something out loud, like dosomething to remind you of the
reality that you're actually inmy favorite stories, tim, have
you ever read the CS Lewis booksthe Lion, the Witch and the
(34:13):
Wardrobe, the whole Narnia, yeah, yeah, yeah, one of my favorite
ones in there is the SilverChair, and you got this guy
named Puddle Golem.
He's kind of like a frog man,he's like a weird.
He's like a version of Golem,but like a good version of Golem
.
He's like a happy well, when Isay happy, I mean dreary all the
time but kind of like.
His character is kind of likean uncle Psy, you know kind of
(34:34):
thing.
Anyways, they go into this deep, dark cave where they're trying
to rescue this guy and thiswitch, who's a snake and a
sorcerer and all kinds of stuff,starts playing this music and
putting them under a spell andconvincing them that there is no
sun, there is no upper world,there is none of that.
You're making fairy tales,you're doing all this stuff, and
so what he does is he stickshis foot in the fire and
(34:58):
basically says pain is one ofthe things that just wakes you
up to your senses, even whenyou're falling asleep and going
under a trance, and it's anoutward thing he has to do to
remind himself of the realitythat's actually there.
And one of the things that youcan do in your life like this is
something I'll do.
If I'm noticing myself staringat somebody that I shouldn't too
long, or I'm noticing myselfpaying attention to a desire too
(35:21):
long, or I'm allowing somethingto happen on a screen in front
of me too long, I will literallysay out loud nope, don't want
that, and I'll move on.
And just saying something outloud to confront the lie that is
, that's going to take care ofme or be a better mediator to me
than God is, helps immensely.
Bringing in backup helpsimmensely too.
Invite other people in.
(35:41):
Hey, you're struggling withsomething, call your buddy.
Hey, I suck right now.
Can you help me out?
Will you pray for me?
Just like, look, I'm going tobring up another verse to you
real quick.
Hey, I suck right now.
Can you help me out?
Will you pray for me?
Just walk like, look in, I'mgoing to bring up another verse
to you real quick.
Sorry, I apparently got a lot ofthese today and I realized I
did, but in Proverbs 24, one ofmy favorite right now this is
(36:02):
verse five and six.
A wise man is strong, and a manof knowledge increases in power
.
And he says this, for by wiseguidance you will wage war, and
the abundance of counselors,there's victory.
Okay, if you're struggling in afight against something, you
got an idolatrous heart man.
I got an idol in my life Listento other people because you're
(36:23):
under the treasurer's curseright now.
Like you're not payingattention, you're allowing
something to provide somethingfor you that it should not, and
if you don't bring in backup,oftentimes you're going to lose
when the fight actually callsand when it happens.
Been putting my heart on thisway longer than I should I've
(36:50):
been trying to get from it whatI'm only supposed to get from
you.
I'm asking you to change thisthing in me.
I'm sorry, I've been, I've been, and functionally the Bible
communicates it this way You'vebeen cheating on me Like all
throughout scripture.
There's this massive narrativein the old Testament, especially
of God telling Israel quitflirting with other nations,
like in some.
In some portions, especially inlike Ezekiel, he's like hey,
(37:12):
you're spreading your legs underevery tree on the trail, like
stop it, it's disgusting.
You're perverting yourself withall these other things that
can't take care of you.
And I've taken care of you fromthe time you were a baby.
I've raised you, I poured intoyou, I've given you the things
that you needed, I cleaned youup, I've gotten you out of that
area and I'm trying to bring youback.
Stop, literally, like thelanguage you use is quit whoring
(37:34):
yourself everywhere.
You know everywhere that you'regoing.
And I don't think we thinkabout it that way because we
downplay the commands of God.
We're thinking to ourselves oh,it's not that big of a deal,
it's fine.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And it's Just going to burn my family alive later
and bury us in a wild box.
You know, what sucks for me iswhen I hear stuff like that.
It's like, well, this guy didthat and they're great, they're
fine, they're moving on in lifewhere I want to be.
So what's the?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
big deal, I think you lie to yourself.
And then the third thing reallyan idolatrous heart does to him
is it makes you lie to otherpeople, because you take the
first lie right and then you'relike it's probably fine, and so
then you invite other people init.
Case in point when Aitken isburying stuff in his tent you
know what I mean and his family.
Now they're involved in the lie, now they have to be a part of
it.
The rot spreads.
(38:18):
Now the neighbors thatdefinitely saw you burying stuff
in your tent on your way backfrom the trip.
It wasn't like he had a littlepurse full.
You know what I mean.
There was stuff going on thatwas a problem.
And now other people areinvolved in that lie.
It's the same thing again withAdam and Eve.
Right, because Eve takes thefruit, because she believes it,
(38:39):
and then the first thing shedoes is give it to Adam, who's
standing there as well, and nowhe's involved in the same thing.
And then when God confronts him, he's like it wasn't me, it was
the woman that you put here,right?
And now I'm extending thisIdolatrous hearts tend to
believe lies themselves and thenextend lies to other people,
because if the father of lies isthe thing that is creating the
(39:04):
idols.
Then you begin to speak thelanguage of the idols instead of
the actual God that you'resupposed to serve and you become
part of this kind of nastycycle of lying about things that
are going on, which is why it'sfunny to me when I talk about
the Catholic Church, because Ifeel like they're constantly
stuck in some kind of We've gotto define things really clearly
here, because we want to looklike we're doing the right thing
(39:26):
, even though we're basicallygetting people to pray to Mary.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Okay great.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Well, that's a problem.
You're not praying to thestatue, you're praying through
the statue.
Right, okay, cool.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Well, let me ask you you actually brought this
question up years ago when wefirst got saved dude.
Is prayer a form of worship?
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I think you have to say that it is, and that's what
I was saying.
When we talk about, you know,dahlia, hyperdahlia and Latria,
and they're trying to parse itout and saying, well, some
prayer is worship and someprayer is not.
And I would say prayer isworship, so praying to saints is
idolatry.
Prayer is worship, so prayingthrough something is ultimately
(40:07):
idolatry, unless you're prayingthrough Christ to the Father,
which is praying to God, and ifnot, I think you're
participating in some kind oflie.
You're putting things in aplace where you shouldn't, and
you end up kind of hiding thingsand acting like, yeah, but it
helps me, though.
An area I see this is with I'mgoing to meddle I brought it up
(40:31):
on another podcast, though, so Idon't care Like yoga, oh yeah.
So I go and I do this thing andI make poses with my body that
are actual, like poses of Hindugods, with the person creating
this with the sole purpose ofsaying if I shape my body in
this way, then I'm inviting thatgod into me to give me peace
and whatever else to help me dothis Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Or if it's just stretching.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
And it just helps me, right.
So I tell myself it's juststretching, but if I'm being
honest, I'm very intrigued byall the things that go along
with it.
Now I got crystals on mybookshelf because those seem to
be helping me out too, and Istarted reading some things.
Oh, they're just for fun, right, it's not a big deal.
This to me is the same thingwith, like smoking weed.
You're like oh, it helps me,feel this, it helps me.
(41:14):
Well, what's supposed to helpyou feel that, jesus, there's an
authorized way to get peace andjoy and hope and all these
things.
And there's an unauthorized wayto get peace and joy and hope
and all these things that aresuperficial and not really the
real thing.
And your argument is I'll do abetter job serving God if he
(41:39):
lets me do the idolatry thingtoo.
Yeah, that's not going to work.
And then we try to kind of hidethat stuff, right, because
nobody goes around in churchsaying I smoke weed.
But a lot of people do, andthey're still going and
worshiping and tellingthemselves it's fine.
Luke 12 always scared the crapout of me.
There's nothing covered up thatwill not be revealed and
nothing hidden that will not beknown, according to.
Whatever you have said in thedark, it will be heard in the
(42:00):
light in which you havewhispered in the inner rooms,
will be proclaimed upon thehousetops.
I would say listen, don't dealin lies, whether that's lies
you're telling yourself aboutthe idolatrous heart that you're
struggling with, or whetherthat's lies you're having to
deal in now to get other peopleto be okay with the thing that
you're doing.
And I've seen this with stufflike homosexuality.
(42:22):
Man, somebody is a Christian,they have a really good friend,
and now they're reallystruggling with homosexuality
and they met somebody andthey've convinced them it's a
good, monogamous, finerelationship.
We both love Jesus.
We haven't abandoned this.
Okay, ultimately, that'sidolatry.
That's what that is.
And now you're dealing in liesto try to cover up what the
idolatry is that you're doing.
(42:42):
And now they're inviting youinto that lie too and trying to
convince you persuasively, likeSatan did with the apple, that
this is fine and God wouldn'tactually mean that he wouldn't
be holding out on you for thethings that he said right.
Therefore, consider the membersof your earthly body dead as it
pertains to impurity andimmorality and passions, evil
(43:02):
desires and greed which amountto idolatry.
This is the picture.
Don't let those things destroyyou the way that they want to.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Yeah, I think I was actually talking to my wife
about this, because for me it'salways been.
I had a conversation with you along time ago about when you
get a rosary.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Remember this and you were nice about it and stuff,
but I was telling you thereasons.
Like I don't believe that ithas power, but I believe it will
help me get into a better placewhere I could talk to God.
Yeah, idolatry.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
See, that's weird to me, I guess.
Yeah, because I don't believein the artifact itself, given
anything, rather than allowingmyself to commune with God.
Better, right, you know.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
But I would say that the rosary is what is it Right?
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Yeah, well, it's a, yeah, it's for the, it's a
prayer, basically.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Well, it's kind of a mediatorial element too.
I pick this up, I play withthese beads.
The beads represent the things.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
It's got the cross on it, usually Jesus on it too
Well, you follow a prayer alongwith the beads, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
And look if somebody is like hey, I hold some nails
while I pray because they remindme of what Christ did.
Ok, that, that makes a littlemore sense.
Or you light a candle when youpray the rosary is a little bit
more associated with praying therosary for one Agreed.
There's kind of a system behindthat particular thing and they
see a lot of these things asmediatorial, not as helpful for
remembering.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
It's different, and so look, but if I view it that
way, does it still matter?
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Here's another question, tim, could you play
like crazy Eights with tarotcards?
You know, or maybe there's abetter analogy?
It would be like the match gamewith tarot cards.
Oh, I find the same one.
Well, I'm not using it for thatpurpose, but I like the cards.
They've got cool pictures onthem and stuff.
Maybe just don't.
(44:50):
What's the attraction to it whenyou could use something else?
Why use that thing?
And I think it's dragon'streasure.
You know what I mean.
I think there's a reason thatwe're attracted to some things
that we maybe shouldn't be whensomething else would do, and
it's because there's somethingassociated with it that actually
is pungent.
(45:10):
It is strong.
There is a desire for me towant to do this, and I think we
as Christians should try toavoid those things and be very
careful about it, because theydon't ever stop there.
You know what I mean.
Again, idolatry is like rot itnever stays where it is, it
continues to grow and then youfind yourself in a place where
(45:31):
you don't want to be, which isreally the fourth thing that
idolatry does.
And even in this story withAiken and the story any story in
the Bible where somebody walksin, let's say, in line with
their idolatrous heart or theidolatry that they're struggling
with.
It lies to you about your future.
It tells you this will actuallyhelp me.
This will be good If I takethis treasure, if I eat this
(45:54):
apple, if I sleep with this uh,bathsheba, you know, whatever it
is, this will be a good outcome.
It will provide for me thething that I actually want.
And everybody knows if you takethe dragon's treasure, it's
cursed you.
It does not go well, but youconvince yourself in the moment.
This will help me get to theplace that I want to go, but it
(46:15):
does not take you to the placethat you want to go.
Pick any idol.
That's how it works.
I mean, it might work for you.
For a second you feel prettypumped about it, until you don't
feel pumped about it at all,and now I literally you know
that's why I like the story ofthe black pearl right?
Like you now, I literally can'ttaste food.
But I'm going to be honest withyou.
(46:36):
People, tim, that havestruggled with addictions, with
drugs, that's literally wherethey're at.
Food doesn't taste good anymore.
It doesn't matter, I have tohave this or nothing else is
good.
We know these things internally.
But if you stare at the idol,the treasure, long enough, you
become captivated by it.
Sheol and Abaddon are neversatisfied.
Neither your eyes Close them.
(46:58):
Fix them on Jesus, get youreyes up on things that will
actually take care of you, andit goes a long way.
And I do think, look, I dothink there can be helpful tools
to remind you of who Jesus is.
I'm not saying there can't beTo my point.
I don't think shows that depictJesus are in sin of breaking the
second commandment.
(47:19):
Although I'm OK If somebodylands there, I get at least why
they want to be careful.
I think we've taken it waybeyond those things.
And I would say, man, whenthere's arenas full of people
for sports events, when they'rethrowing their hands up in the
air, they're worshiping, youknow what I mean.
They're praising.
They painted their bodies,they're going through weird,
freaking tailgating ritualsbefore the game.
(47:41):
I won't change my socks becausethey haven't lost right Like
the superstition is the wordthat we use.
All we're saying is I have astrange attraction to try to
leverage this thing as amediator to get what I want.
And again, the secondcommandment is about how God is
not to be worshipped.
Ultimately, don't worship methrough these things and don't
(48:01):
try to get from other thingswhich you're only supposed to
get through me, and our tendencyis to do that with the stuff
around us.
We see these horoscopes andpeople trying to define the
future with the stars, and wesee this with literally.
We call people icons.
You know what I mean?
It's like literally, it's likeanother word for idol.
That's all that is, and it's aproblem.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Hey man, thanks for the chat today.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Oh dang, has it been that long yeah?
Speaker 1 (48:29):
a little bit over actually.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Holy cow, I had no idea I was ranting that much I
wouldn't call it ranting no itis what it is.
But hey, listen, just like I wastelling you guys, pay attention
to what's going on with yourheart.
Confront that stuff out loud,invite back up if you're
actually struggling with it, andmake repentance and confession
a regular part of your day.
Part of your day is you want tostart clean with a real love
(48:54):
for God.
In the same way every day.
You would want to start with afresh love and an allegiance to
your bride or your husband oryour spouse or whatever
relationship you're in.
It's about allegiance to Godfirst, and then it's about
thinking through how youactually worship that God that
you love, and you don't do thatthrough other stuff or by
believing lies or walking in away that you shouldn't Focus on
the good things that God hasgiven you and trust his hand in
(49:15):
your life.
And if you start to let otherthings sneak into your life, I'm
telling you right now they'relying to you about outcomes,
they're going to make you a liarand they're going to hurt
everybody around you.
So keep it in mind.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Awesome, cool, thanks man.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Right on, guys.
Hey, have a blessed day.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Catch you.
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