March 26, 2025 • 48 mins
Tjbhpodcast@gmail.com
The conversation begins with vulnerable stories of each man's journey into ministry—paths marked by uncertainty, divine intervention, and unexpected turns. AJ shares how he abandoned his dream of becoming a comedian after God spoke through dreams, leading him instead to youth ministry. Justin recounts how his initial skepticism of church drove him to create something "authentic," only to discover God had been preparing him for ministry all along through a powerful vision.
Most striking is their unified testimony that ministry success isn't measured by growth, acclaim, or visible fruit. "How do you know you're called to this?" one asks. The answer comes with striking simplicity: "Because I'm still here." True calling persists through disappointment, through seasons where nothing works, through criticism and doubt.
Perhaps most poignant is their discussion of Amy Carmichael's poem "No Scar," which captures the essence of authentic ministry: "Hast thou no wound, no scar? Yet as the Master shall the servant be." The wounds acquired in faithful service aren't failures—they're evidence of having followed Jesus into the battle.
Whether you're questioning your own calling or simply seeking to understand the hidden realities of ministry life, this conversation offers both challenge and comfort: count the cost, prepare for pain, but know that in that painful obedience, you'll discover a joy that makes every scar worthwhile.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
guys, welcome back to navigate.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm with justin I'm here, my man he's here, and we
have another one.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
We got that aj.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hey, he's back yeah, the presence of, of, of pure
youth and punk rock come on isin the presence of, is part of
the podcast yeah, it's haunting.
It is haunting, this episode.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
It's about to get real edgy, you guys.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Real edgy.
It's about to get real.
One of those things is true.
I'll let you guys decide whichone Real or edgy.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
It's like Billy Corgan got saved and became a
youth pastor that now runs acampus.
It's awesome, it'd be sweet,that's true.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I think they would show up to that.
It's like hey, do you guys wantto see an ex-smashing pumpkin?
Instead of smashing pumpkins,it's smashing Satan Nice.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, smashing, tell me your homeschool without
telling me your homeschool.
With that line, honestly, Iwant to say more, but I will say
less.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
We actually brought AJ up.
Last podcast with Bo, we weretalking about singles.
Yeah, we were mentioning howevery time we have Bo on, we
seem to talk about dating and AJalways seems to come on when we
talk about family, because youdid the Honor your Mother and
Father one with us.
Yeah, that was fun the lasttime.
Today I don't think we're goingto talk about families, so this
could be interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I have nothing to say this is it pal, this is it.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
If we talk about the economy or something, I'll be
like I don't know.
I don't know what we're talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I'm sorry, same here.
If we talk about the economy,all of us are probably going to
be a little bit left behind onthat.
Well, I'll just say what I doknow is I think money is good.
Not having money, that's bad.
That's bad, that's bad.
Gary North is great on thissubject.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
And I would just say everyone listen.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Austrian economics, that's the way to go.
I read Wealth of Nations once.
It was cool.
Don't care, I haven't movedmuch past that and I probably
should.
You know, now that we'retalking about this, I'm like,
okay, maybe I need to go plumbthe depths on this and get after
it.
We did an episode on money,didn't we, I think?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
we did.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
One Really.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
One.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Maybe we did.
I think we did two, I don'tremember.
Anyways, what the heck are wetalking about, bro Real?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
ascent.
You know, this just came to me,so we're going to just assume
God did as we do everything.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
So shall it be written so let it be done.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
You guys have been doing ministry full-time for
years now, so I'm curiousSilence.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
How do you oh gosh?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Let me start with some just basic questions for
you guys, if you don't mind measking.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Okay, first one how did you know I will not go out
with you, not after the lasttime I'm never going to stop
asking, so just get over it.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Good, no, how did you know when god had that calling
in your life to become what youare now?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
oh aj go ahead.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Okay, uh, for me I I really thought for years the
call of my life was to be inentertainment.
I wanted to be a comedian andeven when I really got serious
about God, like right after highschool, I thought that was me.
Being obedient to the Lord wasto pursue that.
So everything I was doing wasin light of pursuing that.
(03:16):
And that came about because ofwe would go to camps and stuff
and people would—I didn't evenhave the language of prophecy,
but people would speak in mylife and they would say God's
going to use you in ways ofbringing joy and laughter and
stuff.
And I'm like, yes, that's right, I'm going to be like Chris
(03:37):
Farley, that's what I want to be.
And so when I'm really pursuingthe Lord and still have that in
my heart, to do it out ofobedience and do it because it's
like, yeah, that's who I wascreated to be.
And as my wife and I gottogether and I realized that was
not in her heart at all, was tomarry somebody, that was going
to be an entertainment, thatthere was that.
(03:59):
Now what do I do?
I think I'm supposed to marrythis girl, but she doesn't want
to follow me in this dream Ihave.
And so it took the Lord to giveme a series of actual dreams I
had in the night that informedme and that's a long story, but
these dreams informed me that Iwas supposed to marry Adriel and
not.
I was supposed to actually giveup on this dream and I thought
(04:20):
I was betraying the Lord.
But as I had submitted thesethings to my pastor and he was
like I think actually what God'strying to tell you is that you
can trust him and you shouldpursue this thing that he's put
in your life, which is your wife.
So, as I did that and I'm likethere was like three or four
months where it just felt like adeath to me, where it was like
I don't know what I'm supposedto do with my life Other than
(04:42):
I'm supposed to marry this girland I'm a loser, where it was
like I don't know what I'msupposed to do with my life
Other than I'm supposed to marrythis girl and I'm a loser.
I don't know how to do anything.
I don't know.
I'm not smart, I don't know.
There's nothing I'm passionateabout except for making people
laugh.
That's the only thing that Icare about.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Can I throw something out?
Yeah, I feel like you have acrazy high IQ, for the record,
like it's.
You're actually incrediblyintelligent.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Well, I know that now , but at the time, like because
then years later still feelingthis low self-worth thing, so
I'm telling you this is how Ifelt then.
I don't have that self-worththing now.
Yeah, I mean, maybe I do, andthen the Lord's always, he's
always beating that out of me,like you, like you yourself as a
son.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I just think people think the funny guy is not smart
and I think it's a hundredpercent wrong, like most guys
that are comedians areincredibly intelligent, but as a
kid I'm thinking well, I'm sostupid.
Everybody just laughs at me.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
And then when I actually I went and got my IQ
test and tested.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Did you really?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, cause I thought I had autism.
I got a touch of the autism.
I thought I did, I read, I readan article about people on the
spectrum and I was like I am onthe spectrum, that's what's
happening.
So I went and I went and didtons of tests and they said so
there's like seven forms of ADD.
You have five of them and youyou have incredibly slow
(05:54):
processing.
Your processing skills are thatof like a middle school boy,
and so it's like below, belowaverage.
But then when we took the IQ,everything with the IQ, it's
like your IQ is above its geniuslevel and so I do have like
very, very high IQ.
But then I'm thinking that andthen I'm so offended at God even
in that time, this is like 2015.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I'm so offended.
It's like saying you have theathletic ability of Shaquille
O'Neal in the body of like.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Of Steve.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
DeVito, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah.
So I'm like great.
So the Lord gave me this andthere's no way I can use it and
there's no context I'm evergoing to be able to use it Again
.
This is how I'm feeling as ayoung man at 20 years old that
I'm thinking God gave me thisability and he's telling me I
can't use it.
And okay, so what do I do?
And I'm feeling terrible aboutmyself.
And then we go to this camp andwhen we're at the camp the same
(06:45):
one we brought the kids to fromBrave we brought the kids and I
told them this is the same room.
It was like right here I gotthe call of God in my life
because the past, like I, wasjust so passionate for worship.
And the pastor gives me the mic.
I said we need to encouragekids to worship.
They're like they're fallingasleep, they're not doing it and
he's like he gives me the micand I just start pouring my
(07:05):
heart out, like we're going toworship God.
And in this time I'm like thisis who I am.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I ministered for 45 minutes or so you found who you
were, and it was like, yes, thisis what I'm called to do, is
that?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
And I remember ministering.
And then I went and got on thefloor, just face before the Lord
, you know, just on my face,just like my face was like, just
like I got up and it was carpetmarks all over my face and just
like I know who I am, liketotally got up, a totally
changed person, like I'm goingto spend the rest of my life
pursuing, like teenagers, forJesus.
And so even now, when it's like, yeah, but that's not totally
(07:40):
what you're doing, you're not ayouth pastor, it's just like
it's people for Jesus, I guess Idon't know.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Spiritual children, yeah, spiritual children.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Or even, like you know, I'm talking to all these
adults in the room, but I stillsee the teenagers.
I see people and I love them.
I see teenagers and Iimmediately get weepy and it's
just like come follow Jesus,yeah.
So there's something that'sstill there where it's like,
yeah, I can do anything Godtells me to do, but you get me
around teenagers, and there'ssomething.
I'm a very different person.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
That's so funny.
So I had to teach chapel thismorning for our middle school
and high school kids and I waslike I hate this, I hate this
stuff Like.
I'm in the larger room with allthe kids and I'm teaching on
prudence and I'm like, yeah,it's great.
And then there's like apost-session you do with the
high school kids and I was like,oh my gosh, I hate high school
so much.
And I was literally thinkingabout you, aj.
I was like he would be overhere, like this was the best
(08:32):
thing ever and I'm sitting herelike I need a cigarette and I
don't smoke.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, and you've got to find what.
When I talk to people that wantto be in ministry, it's like
what makes you come alive?
And they're like I don't know,just like maybe I just start
preaching and someday I'll belike pastor Jeff, and it's like
you won't make it.
You're going to get reallyoffended at God, and the best
thing that would happen is ifyou, if you, if someone beats
(09:01):
you up now, if think that youcan preach and then at some
point, because it's going to beso heavy in your heart, it will
kill you and you'll be offendedat God.
You'll be offended at all thepeople you tried to lead, and
it's like, whenever I see peopledoing ministry, my heart gets
heavy.
I want to brag on a guy that wehave here named Joe Martinez.
He's the guy that I wanted tobe.
(09:22):
He's our kids pastor and I'mlike not a lot of people are
going to make it.
You're going to make it, butwatching him get the crap kicked
out of him in ministry, it'sjust like this is part of this,
is the way.
This is part of it and itactually affirms it in me.
Like to him, I'm like you'regoing to like God's.
This is the call in your life.
This is the call in your lifeJust don't give up, and I don't
(09:42):
you know.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Dude, that's it, yeah , that's it Like.
To me it's like what's thedifference between Judas and
Peter?
Peter came back, yeah, he keptgoing until they crucified him
upside down and he wasn't goingto quit.
Like there's something about,like how do you know you're
called to this Because I'm stillhere.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Sometimes people are likeyou're doing a good job and
sometimes people say you're notdoing a good job and I'm like I
guess it's irrelevant.
It's not like whether I'm goodat this or not.
I'm called to it and I have todo this, whether we succeed or
not.
And it's like what happens ifyou do this and you let people
down.
That's a possibility.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
But I guess I have to go for Jesus.
I have a matrix that I runthings through for comments.
Tim, I don't know, I feel likewe're you're in the middle of a
different conversation.
I can come back to my story alittle bit, but I'm going to
throw this in here for theaverage person.
So I was talking to somebodyabout this this morning In my
questioning of how things aregoing, and when somebody brings
something up or like you know,you beat yourself up and then
(10:40):
you have this, you know this,the Bible, which will just
destroy you.
I kind of run things throughthat spiral, like for me, okay,
this person said this about me.
Do I think that about myself?
Does the Bible think that'strue about me?
Right, if the Bible says this,okay, how am I doing compared to
(11:01):
the people around me?
And where do I think I land onthis possibility, if I like we
should constantly be runningthings through a cycle, and I
was talking to one of our guysabout this, cause he was, he was
bringing up.
He's like, hey, the other day Itold you I was really mad at
myself, like like veryfrustrated, cause I spent more
time on my phone than I wantedto.
(11:22):
How much time are you spendingon your phone?
He's like maybe an hour.
And I was like, okay, so you'renot doing that bad, it could be
a lot worse.
And he was like, well, whywould you minimize something
that's bad?
And I was like, well, if youcame in here like I'm doing
awesome.
I'd be like you know what Godsays about you, don't you?
(11:44):
You know what I mean.
Like there's a I've met people.
Run where you're at through toget a perspective of where
you're actually at, like the youare here in your spiritual walk
.
Is this combination of what Godis saying is true, which is the
ultimate lens?
That I should run everythingthrough the reality of the world
around me and where do I findmyself?
(12:06):
And then ultimately also like myown opinion, and if you're only
paying attention to your ownopinion, that's a problem.
If you're only ever looking atthe Bible, you're just going to
walk around destroyed 100% ofthe time.
Like I guess, if I'm alwaysmeasuring myself with me and God
, I guess I'm just trash all thetime and I never like God.
Jesus doesn't even do that.
We're supposed to grow in thecontext of community and so you
(12:26):
also want to be taking intoconsideration what other people
are saying.
So anytime somebody sayssomething about you know me,
about this you're doing a goodjob, you're doing a bad job, or
how I feel about myself.
Like there should be thisspiral of okay, now I'm going to
take that, I'm going to run itthrough other people, I'm going
to run it through scripture, I'mgoing to run it through my own
brain and I'm going to start totry to develop where I actually
am in this process.
And if you only camp on one ofthose, you're probably not
(12:49):
growing yeah, totally or you'regoing to stall yourself.
So just throwing that out therefor anybody who's getting those
comments.
And maybe you're like trying tofigure out ministry in your own
life and you're like I don'tknow if I'm good or how's this
going.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Running through the matrix.
That's funny.
You bring that up because mywife came home one day and
brought something up.
She's like oh, he thought I wasthis and I no not at all she
got mad and then she asked acouple of other people.
They all agreed with me.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
It kind of wrecked her a little bit, but for good,
for good, and you know, likeJames, one talks about that of,
like you know, looking at thelaw, or you know, we look at the
word and then, um, the personthat that walks away and they
forget what they look like walksaway and they forget what they
look like.
Yeah, and it's.
There's so many people thatwith Christians, you try you, we
, as we, so, as we minister, wetry to help people and when
(13:38):
people don't actually want help,they're like nope, that's not
me, and it's just like look, I'mholding you up to the word of
God, I'm not trying and this andlook this.
So my opinion is is just, it'sjust that it's my opinion, but
then I'm going to hold it up tothe word of the word of God and
I'm going to show you this andsomeone's like you can tell me
that, but I'm like I won't do it.
(14:00):
You have you have salad in yourteeth.
Yeah, no no, I don't think so,and it's just like.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I'm telling you something that's objectively
true, right now you smell.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Okay.
Well, I guess you could do that.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
But some people have no brain at all and they don't
have any opinions except forother people's opinions of them,
and that's equally problematic,right, yeah?
But yeah, I just think it'scool hearing your story and hear
like, because I think anybodywho's in the ministry or working
through stuff you're going tohear comments.
You're going to be asking whoseopinion should I listen to, and
the right answer is all of themLike ultimately, God is the
(14:34):
final say in all things, butwhat I found is like God is the
backbone, but you're going toneed the Christian brothers and
sisters around you and your ownthoughts to try to put some
bones on the fullness of what itmeans to be you, yeah Well.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
And the Christianese people will say stuff like this,
like the only opinion thatmatters is God's.
It's like, ultimately, that'swhat we have to live by.
Right, if the Lord told you todo it, you should do it.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
That's like saying the only thing we should eat is
food Right.
What kind.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Yeah, totally.
And then it's like payattention, because if you're not
good at communicating andpeople are like I don't, like
when you communicate, all Ithink you're bad at this and
you're like their opiniondoesn't matter, only God's does.
And those guys always have tinyministries or they flunk out
and they say it's the people,the God.
You know, god wanted me to dothis, but the people are against
me.
It's like no, jesus grew infavor with God and with men.
(15:23):
Yeah, sounds like you quit.
Yeah, sounds like you quit andyou weren't able to like learn
like we do, but we absolutelyhave to learn.
So if someone's like I'm calledto be in ministry, god told me
so and then someone's like yep,and you need to dress
differently, or you need tolearn how to communicate, you
need to learn how to serve, andthey're like they can't tell me
(15:43):
what to do.
God told me to do this.
Those people never make it.
Or they church hop and tellsomebody oh man, people will
call and be like can I start aministry at your church?
I'm like I don't even never metyou before.
Do you go to this church?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
They're like no, but I'll mentor you on why I should
be here.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
How many times have you had that happen in your
career?
Like if you had to guess, like.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Since I started leading ministries, I mean, I
would say hundreds yeah.
One every like month or threemonths, some seasons it's two or
three times a week, yeah, andsome seasons it's like twice a
month.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Best ministry idea that's ever been floated by you.
That you're like if we had ajoke church, if our church was
just comedy, I would say, yes, Ihad somebody come and was like
shaking angry that we didn'thave a ministry for overweight
people Dude.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I were like they're like like shaking angry, like
you don't care about and I I'mtrying to say this in nice ways,
so I'm going to be careful herebut like the so angry that we
didn't care about the fatties.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
You know what I mean I was trying, that was trying, I
mean my response would havebeen like you don't even have.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
We're gonna do a small group at golden crab.
I had a nicer.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I had a nicer person come up with the same thing once
and they're like I would reallylike to do like a, like a small
group, like couch to 5k kind ofthing, and I was like, okay,
that's a better way to do it.
I was like, yeah, you shouldstart that.
But there's a differencebetween coming up like I have an
idea and somebody like how dareyou not accommodate us with
some spirit, don't you know?
That this is the temple and I'mlike you don't look like a
(17:23):
temple.
This is not on me.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Well, what about you, Justin?
I don't think I actually knowwhat dream you had in life
before you got saved.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Oh man, Before I got saved, I had no dream.
I wanted to win.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
AJ was talking about being a comedian and all that.
So I'm curious did you havesomething in mind?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I wanted to be a firefighter originally.
Remember that?
Yeah, I wanted to be an EMT, Iwas planning on getting my EMT
and then I was going to be afirefighter and then I ended up
in the kitchen instead, which isthe strangest.
Like I remember looking aroundthinking how did I get here?
And it was kind of awesome,Like I was in the kitchen world
(18:01):
like right before all of itstarted getting really trendy
and Food Network just took over.
But it was like housewives lostcontrol of Food Network and it
slipped into the hands of theentire population.
I feel like, is what happened.
And suddenly you had GordonRamsey's and all these people.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
So I don't know where they have these Tik TOK, famous
influencer, cook, chef peoplethat could get millions of
dollars a year.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, it's a.
So it was kind of weird for me,man, like I got saved when I
was in the kitchen world and myfirst thought was, man, I want
nothing to do with the church.
Because I feel like when I gotsaved, I was like, well, what I
know about the church is they'rea bunch of liars and terrible
people and none of them arereally serious.
And I gave my life to Christand my thought was, well, I'm
(18:48):
going to start something.
That's the real deal.
You know what I mean.
And so we started a Bible studywith like four guys and it was
cool.
It turned into like 50 and wewere pushing couches away and
like trying to stuff a bunch ofyoung people into a room.
And at some point Timmy I thinkI've said this before but I
realized that if all the peoplethat were represented in that
group that we had meetingtogether represented a category
(19:11):
of lukewarm Christian or personthat was going to be in a church
, then I basically had the sameratios and I was realizing that,
oh, you don't have the abilityto, um, at least to some level,
create the quality of disciplethat you want.
You're not doing somethingdifferent, You're doing the same
thing but acting like you'redoing something special, and it
kind of kind of hit me.
Um, my thought was I'm nevergoing to do full-time ministry,
(19:34):
I'm just going to do ministryfor the rest of my life, like
that's kind of like that waswhat was happening in my head.
And then I got a couple ofweird things happened to me.
People started telling mearound me like dude, this is,
you're really good at this man.
God's given you the gift ofwisdom, god's given you the gift
of this or that or whatever.
And I was like, okay, cool,thanks.
And um, I I gotta remember Igot an opportunity to speak at
(19:56):
this thing and I had, I think,25 pages of content and it took
me four minutes.
It was like my wedding night.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Like it was I shouldn't have said that I'm
sorry, um and uh.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
You know, it was like stuff like that, where I was
like, and I had those momentswhere I was like this is not for
me, I shouldn't.
Uh, you know, it was like stufflike that where I was like and
I had those moments where I waslike this is not for me, I
shouldn't do that, you know.
And what am I even doing?
Blah, blah, blah.
Um.
But then I had a.
I had a legit vision.
I'm not going to lie, like,like every.
I'll just lost everycessationist that listens to the
show, probably.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
But hear me, out, I think the most vivid, crazy.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Like the closest thing I could give an example to
it is a daydream, but it wasnot a daydream Like I was in it
and I had this picture of me andI was at a pulpit and I was
teaching on Jeremiah, verse 20or chapter 20.
And I remember it was like 9through 11, like that classic
passage that everybody talksabout and I was watching people
(20:54):
filling the pews and it was likeit was a room that kept getting
bigger and the rows kept goingfarther and farther and farther
back.
And I remember staring likewhat is this?
And it vanished in front of myface and I heard God say pretty
darn clearly preach the word,make disciples, love your family
.
And it was like okay, whateverthat means.
Like I have that you know thatwhole thing in detail written
(21:20):
out in some journal somewhereyou know what I mean In a box
and you know in a storage closetor something.
But it was pretty crazy.
Man, when I got saved, my firstthought was I'm going to study,
I'm not going to be part of thechurch, I'm going to do ministry
for the rest of my life, butI'm going to do it on the side
to shove it in the face of thoselying pastors who suck and
don't know what they're actuallydoing.
And God just humbled me reallyfast by showing me that, man, I
don't know what I'm talkingabout.
(21:41):
I desperately need all of thosepeople.
Yeah, there's a lot of liarsout there, but there's a lot of
solid men who are working hardto figure this stuff out, like
you are.
And so that, um, that thatvision kind of solidified some
stuff for me.
Man, some crazy stuff happenedin my life.
After that I had a couple otherpeople confirm some stuff, but
after that it was basically likeokay, well, I'm just going to
(22:02):
keep doing what I'm doing and ifit really is from God, then
he's going to put me there.
I'm not going to have to changemuch of what I'm doing, cause
I'm already studying, I'malready reading, I'm already
teaching, I'm already leading,I'm already serving.
Um, eventually it just wentfrom like buckshot, where I was
doing everything that I couldpossibly get my hands on, to I'm
primarily doing teaching andcoaching and developing roles
(22:24):
for the people that I'm around.
And I was doing that inkitchens too, like it didn't
change really what I was doing,just kind of the Avenue in which
I was deploying those gifts andum, eventually, uh, stepped
into a spot where I was able todo it full time.
And then it's just kind ofgrown from there, man.
But yeah, it was, uh, it was,um, it was a passion that God
(22:45):
lit in my heart with an, with anindeterminate way that things
are going to happen.
And then I feel like I had alegit vision and a kind of a I
would say as close to audible asI can imagine kind of spoken to
me just three things, and I'vebeen I wrote that on my wall for
the longest.
That was on my wall for likefour years was yeah, yeah, yeah,
(23:06):
had that stuff set up and I'vebeen pursuing that ever since.
I am a firm believer that if Godhas a will for your life, you
just keep being faithful in thethings that he's called you to
do and then he'll create theroad and the place in which he
wants you to do it.
And if you throw yourself outearly and like, oh, I have to do
this, so I got to go to thisplace or got to go to that thing
(23:27):
, I actually think it's thewrong way.
You just keep being faithful,work on you and what God has
called you to do, and I think hemakes that Red Sea Road for
anybody who's willing to befaithful.
And I mean, it's such a sillything to say to him because I
got to be straight.
And, aj, I know this is thesame for you too.
I say that and it's like, yeah,it all just happened.
There was so much pain in thatprocess that I almost can't even
(23:49):
describe to you how manypunches you got to take, not
only for yourself, but becauseof all the people that you're
trying to pour into and helpalong the way, that it feels
like dying man.
Um, but if you knew, if youknew that that's the only way
that you can really live.
Like, yeah, but if I don't dothis, I'm not being true to what
I know I'm supposed to do.
Um, you know what I mean.
(24:10):
Like, there's that.
There's just that tension there.
I don't know how to explain it,but anybody who's been in that
spot where they know this iswhat I'm supposed to do, knows
what it's like to experience thepain of staying in that spot,
even even when it hurts.
And if you quit, shame on you.
Yeah, shame on you.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah, okay.
So, as you're saying that,share these verses because
Adrian and I wanted to give upso early in our ministry, and
anybody maybe.
This is a good like if you'regoing to come up with a title.
It's like aspiring ministers,just like anybody that wants to
be at making ministry, becauseyou need to hear these real
stories.
That it's.
It's really.
It's glorious when it'sglorious, but for the most part
(24:47):
it's mundane and painful and uhand and it doesn't make any
sense.
Like most of the stuff thathappens doesn't make any sense.
It makes sense in retrospect.
Yeah, it helps you, it helps youon, like we've been doing it
now full time since 2009.
So what is that?
16 years and then, but evenbefore that, like you know, then
it was like two years of justlike pursuing so all these years
(25:08):
and it's just like I can maybeforesee things better now, but
the way I foresee it now is likewhat's going to happen next?
It's like we have no idea.
It'll be fine, it'll be fine,but like, instead of being like,
predict the next few years aslike, oh no clue, pastor on the
moon or something.
Okay.
So this verse, the day I wantedto quit probably one of the
harshest times of wanting toquit and I went away to go call
(25:30):
my mentor and then my wife satin the car because we were in
Green Bay, wisconsin.
We were at a restaurant inOshkosh.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
That was your first mistake was living in Green Bay.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Living in Green Bay was like the Lord's way of being
, like I'm going to take youaway from everything you know
and people are not going tothink you're funny at all.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Your one gift that you have people didn't laugh at
all, so I'd get out there andtell jokes and nobody would
laugh.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
And my little brother said that's actually the
funniest thing.
It's like at the end ofSeinfeld when Seinfeld's up
there telling jokes in prison,they're like we're going to kill
you, he's like, that's whatit's like, and I was like,
that's exactly what it's like.
It was just dude, nothing workedfor us.
And so, okay, my mentor tellsme these verses and then Adri,
the Lord, speaks it to my wifein the car.
(26:11):
It's Ecclesiastes 11, startingin verse 3.
If the clouds are full, theypour out rain upon the earth,
and whether a tree falls towardthe south or toward the north,
wherever the tree falls, thereit lies.
He who watches the wind willnot sow, and he who looks at the
clouds will not reap.
Just as you do not know thepath of the wind and how bones
are formed in the womb of thepregnant woman, so you do not
know how the activity of God,who makes all things.
(26:32):
So you're seed in the morningand do not be idle in the
evening, for you do not knowwhether morning or evening
sowing will succeed, or whetherboth of them alike will be good.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Man, that's so good.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
If you're going to be in ministry, you have to be
convinced.
God called you to do it and youdo it.
And it's like but nothing works.
And it's like yep, and it'slike yep, and it's like and I
might die in this, it's like yep.
There's no promise of success.
There's no the.
Your reward is the lord, andthat's it.
And it's like but what if thepeople don't respond?
They don't like me.
That I mean.
As cruel as it sounds.
It's like what if that's thewill of god for you?
(27:04):
What?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
if that's the plan yeah, what if god?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
if god required it of you, would you give it to him?
If you knew that, like he wasproud of you, he was, was happy
with you.
Dude, that's it.
And if you don't, if someone'slike, no, I got to have this,
it's like you're not going tomake it because you are going to
look at the wind.
You're going to try to, you'regoing to try to judge this.
Is it working at night?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Is it working?
In the morning, you will judgewhether or not you're being
obedient by what other peopleare doing around you and that
kill the calling on your life isjudging faithfulness by whether
or not you think it's working.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, and there's the seasons where it's like working
and you're like this is great,this is great and it's like
you're being set up for a hugefault, because, as soon as it
stops, as people stop tellingyou that they like you, your
funds dry up.
Like for me, dude, miracles is abig thing.
Like I want to pray formiracles, so we're seeing
miracles.
Pray for miracles, so we'reseeing miracles.
My personal life is a messinside of myself, hate myself,
(28:01):
but I'm praying and seeingmiracles happen and so I assume
this is God saying this is okay.
And then, as those things dryup, and then I lose my ministry
and then I'm still praying forpeople.
I'm working at King Sooperspraying for people in the store.
People are getting healed.
At King Soopers, praying forpeople in the store.
People are getting healed.
I'm thinking, see, god affirmsme.
It's okay for me to hate myself, it's okay for me to have a
secret life that my wife doesn'tknow about.
All these things are okay.
(28:22):
And then, as all those thingsdry up and it's just like I have
nothing to give.
Like this is me at my low pointin like 2017, 2018.
I have nothing to give theworld and the Lord's like, and I
because it's not about that,it's because I love you Like
just dude that's all Dude.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Now I want to live there.
But like the the whole, likewhere, where these jars of clay
like that are like you know,we're broken, we're cracked, we
leak.
Those moments where God meetsyou and I was like it's me, yeah
(28:58):
, it's me, and, and, and youhave these moments.
You're like, you're right, it'syou, I don't care, I just want
your, I just want to be with you, I just want to.
But but then, like we're notmeant to sit at the feet of
Jesus for the rest of our life,he sends us out, and then we're
like and then we start trying tomeasure success again by the
things around it and it it canbe exhausting, but like that,
what you're saying is a hundredpercent right.
If you're doing this, for whatit's going to produce, oh my.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
It'll be, it'll be disappointing, but if you, if
you're like this jar that's likeI will be continually filled
and I will continually pour itout.
I will pour everything out andit's like what?
What happens if they don'tappreciate you?
It's not about them, it's noteven about me.
I like the picture of the rag.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Because to me it's more like being wrung out you
know Like there's days where itfeels like is there anything
left in there?
Yep, we got more.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
You know, God's like, I'm going to get it out of you.
And then you get thrown in thewater.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
You're like thank God , I'm alive again.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I'm going to bring you out again.
I was telling you yesterday Iwas First time in months to me,
and when did you feel thatstrength come back?
In pursuit of the Lord.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, you left your environment, went somewhere else
, started praying.
God was like what's up?
Yeah, oh yeah, we're friends.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yes, and it felt so good, like I was telling Tim and
some of the other ministers andstuff on our staff here.
It's like I'm pouring out but Idon't feel like I have anything
left.
And and God has been faithfulevery week.
But I'm like I, you know, I goto seek the Lord.
I don't feel like I haveanything.
And even in those times whereit's just like but what do you
do?
It's just like you just keepletting yourself be wrung out.
(30:24):
And if the Lord says, now I'mdone with you, then you could
say, great, now I can be donewith ministry and do something
else.
But until then, if he's likeI'm going to ring you up,
there's nothing left, and it'sjust like then you're going to
be faithful to fill me, you'regoing to be faithful to do these
things.
And what happens if we pray andno one receives Christ?
What happens if we pray andeveryone?
Or what happens if we go up anddo ministry and they say we
(30:45):
don't even like your churchanymore and we leave?
So what?
And until you come to thatplace of so what, I will do it.
No matter what the cost, youcan do ministry.
There's a danger, though.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Like what if you are wrong?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Well, there's a tension here.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
God's like I didn't call you to this.
You've just been doing your ownthing.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Let me bring you back to the matrix I was talking to
you about.
Okay, you'll run it throughthis process of like what has
God said?
What do I know?
What do the people around mecommunicate?
Don't lean on any one of those.
As the, let's say, is the onlysource for communication.
And I keep saying this and I'mtrying to be careful because I
(31:22):
don't want anybody to hear mesay people and yourself are on
an equal playing field with theWord of God 100% not.
I'm saying that the Bible isthe spine.
And then your own walk andrelationship with God and how
that's playing out, and thenyour interaction with the body
of Christ and the world aroundyou then helps flesh out what
(31:44):
that functionally looks like.
And if you look at who theelders became in scripture, it's
like Paul grabs all thesepeople, start hanging out
together, working together, andthere's just some people who
rose to the top.
It's like, yeah, dude, this isyou Like.
Why did he pick Timothy?
You ever asked this question?
I mean, maybe you guys haven'tasked, but it literally says he
was well-known among the peoplein Lystra, like he was just.
(32:05):
I think it was Lystra, it mighthave been Iconium.
But he basically says, like allthese people.
He was just well-known, he wasa dude who was, he was a good
guy.
And Paul is like, hey, you'recoming with me, and I think so,
this matrix of like, what arethe thoughts, uniquely, that God
has put in my own heart?
What has God confirmed to me inhis word and what have I seen
from the people of God that Itrust?
(32:26):
And then, if you have thosethree things, it doesn't really
matter where you're going afterthat, because the confirmation
of the call has already happened.
So, if you know that's the case, if I know, hey, in front of my
face, I had like a screen rolldown in front of me and play
this vision out.
And then it was followed by Godtelling me these three things
that I'm supposed to do with mylife.
(32:47):
And then I have people around mesaying dude, I think this is
something God's doing.
And then, in my own heart, Iknow I've been wanting to do
ministry.
I just was demanding not to doit the way that God wanted me to
.
Okay, well, I have a prettygood confirmation of those
things and I'll go do it Now.
Here's the thing in the moment,it's not enough.
All of that could happen to you.
All right, and you're theperson who's like well, if that
(33:07):
happened to me, then I woulddefinitely be doing it.
If God came to me in a dream,like AJ Liar, it's no less of a
step of faith when you havethose things than it is if you
don't.
If God puts something on yourheart and you're supposed to
walk it out, it's going to bethere.
But again, looking throughscripture, what you find is the
(33:28):
people that were called to thingwent through a ton of
difficulty, usually before theycame into the blessing, and
that's usually where people quit.
I mean, even if you think aboutJesus, he gets baptized.
Right, god sends the spirit toconfirm.
A voice comes from the sky.
This is my son, whom I love, ofwhom I'm well pleased.
He's baptized.
You know, the sky part is likethis is the Messiah.
(33:50):
And then what happens?
Right to the desert, straightto hell.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Satan's going to now just wreck your life.
For the next 40 days You're notgoing to eat, and if you just
play this out in somebody'sregular life, okay.
So let's say you're called tosomething that matters.
You think you're not going tobe tested.
You think you're not going towalk through a process where you
doubt everything, where youwalk through struggle after
struggle, where you feel likeyou're failed and where you feel
(34:18):
like I'm empty.
I'm empty.
I'm empty.
Why am I empty?
So that you can get filled up,like that's.
This is the way, this is theprocess.
We got to wring out of you thecrap that needs to go, so that
you can begin to be filled withthe spirit, instead of whatever
it is that you thought youbrought.
And so many people just quit.
Man, and I don't mean to be ajerk about it, I just I guess I
(34:42):
just want to encourage peopleLike, if you, if you accept the
call from God, then you starttaking punches.
That's a good sign.
Yeah, welcome to the fight, bro.
Glad you're here.
We need more people that cantake punches, not more people
that can throw swords.
Like swords, great, but I needmore.
Like we need more shields rightnow, cause until you can learn
how to hold a shield, youshouldn't even swing that sword.
(35:04):
You know, you're going to needit.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
That's very true.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
I hope that at least maybe gives somebody courage.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
I think you're hinting at something that I've
figured out for myself, talkingabout calling ministry, because
I've struggled with you knowthis vocation, all that.
Still don't know what theheck's going on with me Vocation
.
Someday I'll figure it out whenI'm dead.
But I've come to my consensusof I don't and I gotta be
careful with this, because thesetwo guys can literally fire me,
so I gotta be careful.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
He's like the pastors that you work for could be
totally idiots.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
I work with this guy.
He's an idiot.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
There are times, a lot of times.
More often than not, I do notlike my job.
Right, just the routine of myjob.
Another toilet's leaking, areyou serious?
I get really frustrated.
But what God kind of revealedto me, over the last couple
months even, was that that'syour job.
That's not what you do, yeah.
So figure out what you do hereand then decide because it was a
(35:59):
moment, you know what.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
I mean that's a word, bro.
Yeah, it was great, that's sogood.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
And what I've come up with is like what I do for our
church is I make ministry easier?
And I make you guys look betterthan you actually are.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, I say that jokingly almost but not really.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
No, but that's real, it's not a joke.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
It's the truth, because those are things that
have been indicted In a lot ofways.
You, oh I was a someone youcould lean on in the kitchen
days.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
You know what I mean.
So, Bro, that's such a goodword.
This is what I'm doing.
This is not my ministry.
Yeah, the ministry, this is aby-product of the ministry that
I do here.
These tasks are part of thething that I'm actually trying
to accomplish, not not the solepurpose and you're doing what,
what?
Speaker 1 (36:40):
what is it you're doing here?
You know, can I?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
tell you from a personal experience, tim, just
the same thing from like adifferent angle.
Yep, like so.
So I ran um, you know, men'sministry, I think, I don't know.
It was like four years ofpreaching every, uh, friday and
I do, you know, mondays andteaching, and I was doing
internships.
I just teach all the time.
It's like it's non-stop teaching, which I like.
Like my primary gifting isteaching, all right, but I
(37:06):
started having this problem likegod, is this it?
Like I just talk and thenpeople don't change and then we
just keep doing it.
You know, yeah, there's thislike real and that's a lie,
because ultimately, all kinds ofcool stuff was happening.
I just think we can start tobelieve that the thing we're
doing, um, is like the pointinstead of this is a, this is
(37:26):
actually a piece of the largerpicture of what is going on in
the kingdom.
Yeah, and if you stop lookingat the bigger picture of fruit
that's being produced and thingsgoing on, you really can.
You can beat the heck out ofyourself and talk yourself out
of some really important thingsand even rob people from the
things that God wanted to do intheir life through you, because
(37:48):
you've talked yourself out of it.
You know yeah, but yeah, it'ssuch a good word, man.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Yeah, man, and I think that people should realize
, like, like God isn't makingnot important parts, you know,
and like the body of Christ,everything is important and
everything has a function.
And so sometimes people arelike, well, I wish I could do
something and be heroic orwhatever.
But I'm remembering the storyEnder's game, um, which you know
(38:14):
we named my son, uh, like hismiddle name is Ender, but like
the the he thinks he's justplaying a game.
I game, I'm going to just spoilit for everybody right now.
But he really he's saving theworld and they don't know.
He doesn't know until afterit's over.
And it's like all that stuffthat looked like a test.
It was actually you were reallywinning the war, and he was
like he had no idea.
(38:34):
And I'm like I think thatthere's most of the stuff that
we're doing that is going to begood and exploits for the Lord,
there's going to be maybe notmost of it, I don't know,
there's got to be a big portionof it that we have no idea that
this is what's important andit's just like you mean, what
I'm doing right now, this is thething that matters and the
stuff that makes me feel likeI'm a hero or going to do
(38:55):
something important.
That stuff is less importantand it's like so just being able
to say I'm not going to payattention to my feelings, I'm
going to just do it out ofobedience.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
I think about this all the time with the birth of
Christ, because they think hewas born in these birthing caves
for these lambs that wouldlater be sacrificed, which is
just mind-blowing to me rightoff the bat.
But thinking about who is theguy, who is the stonemason who
broke his back carving out thesestupid caves, that thinks that
(39:27):
what I'm doing is useless andmeaningless and he doesn't
realize it's going to later beinhabited by the king of glory
himself.
Yeah, like literally emmanuelgod with us, the hope of the
world, is going to be born intothis cave and every stroke you
know you're making with thatpickaxe or whatever you think is
(39:49):
just another stroke.
It's not like.
This is deep magic that you'retapping into here, but you don't
see it and you don't get it.
I think that's that really iswhat scripture is getting at all
the time.
I feel like it's just repletewith this Like what you do
matters, god's using it.
It's like it's eternal.
Everything you do in Christ isthis cataclysmic, beautiful big
(40:12):
thing.
But you're like.
You're like in a.
You're like in a simulation youknow what I mean when you're
playing some.
You know you're playing aTetris or something in real life
, but behind the scenes.
It's actually building kingdomcities and one day you're going
to take the VR goggles off andsee like oh man, there was more
going on here.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Well, and so that goes to speak of our human
experience.
It's like, well, why can't Godjust show us that?
It's like there's no way youcould understand that these
things can only be understood infaith, they can be appraised
spiritually.
So to the spiritual man likethese things, these things make
sense.
But to the carnal man, thesethings can, they can only be
spiritually appraised.
So you tell you, tell ministersthat kind of stuff too.
(40:52):
Do it in faith, do the thingsthat you, that you sense God
telling you to do, do it withjoy and obedience.
I'm you know how will I know,and it's just like, well, they
have to be spiritually appraisedand a carnal person could never
, will never, see what they'redoing is important, unless
somebody else tells them thatwas important.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yeah, yeah, I think I was thinking about a poem, tim,
actually from Amy Carmichael,just thinking about people who
are doing ministry and thedifficulty and what comes
through that and what God'sbearing behind the scene, and
like every, every little thingmattering, um, and I, I just I'm
(41:33):
going to read this to you and Ihope it hits you the same way
it hit me, cause the first timeI read it I think I actually
like teared up and probably hadsome tears, cause I was just
thinking about the significanceof it.
But it's, it's.
It's called um, no scar.
Is what it's called.
Has thou no scar, no hidden scaron foot or side or hand?
I hear these song is mighty inthe land.
(41:53):
I hear them hail thy brightascendant star.
Has thou no scar?
Has thou no wound?
Yet I was wounded by the archer, spent, leaned me against the
tree to die and rent by ravingbeast that encompassed me.
I swooned hast thou no wound?
No wound, no scar.
Yet as the master shall theservant be.
And pierced are the feet thatfollow me, but thine are whole.
(42:15):
Can he have followed far?
Who has no wound, no scar?
I read that poem like this isthe way I read that poem?
Like ooh, this is the way youknow, like if you're going to
follow Jesus with his piercedhands and his pierced feet, you
better prepare to have bloodcoming out of your hands and
feet as you're following him,and that that is the mark of
(42:39):
life.
The wounds are evidence thatyou did something.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
You did something.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Yeah yeah, the people with no wounds and no scars are
those who never went to war.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Yeah, right, and Well , and you meet the best
Christians.
We meet the people that havestories and you talk to them,
especially when they have lotsof joy and they're and then they
tell you about the tragicthings that have happened.
And it's just like I like Ithink people always assume
they're making this up.
They're making up their how,either how bad it was or how
(43:09):
happy they are right now.
But I'll tell you, the morethat I follow Jesus, the more
that I realize he's so worth it.
And if you keep it, once Jesusbecomes your prize, it becomes
very much like why aren't you,why aren't you afraid or why
aren't you sad about thesethings?
And it's like there's justsomething greater.
And if you never come to theMatthew 13, 44 thing, you've
never actually sold everythingand bought the field.
(43:30):
And again, I guess I only speakto ministers in this Like it is
true for every Christian.
But for people that are like Iwant to do something great for
God, and it's like if youhaven't sold the field and it
hasn't been great joy, you'regoing to go back.
Yeah, you're going to.
You're always going to go backand you're going to be offended
at God.
And it's uh, and I can't tellyou just have more joy.
(43:50):
It's like the only way you canhave that is you've seen Jesus
and all of a sudden it's likeit's totally worth it Did.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I remember one of the worst points in my entire life.
All right, Just being honest,it was like I could not hit a
lower low.
All right, and and I I think weprobably hit on this in some
other podcasts.
I won't go crazy in depth, butI remember saying out loud to
God okay, I literally havenothing else to give.
Like I don't know what else youwant.
You win that, there's nothingleft.
(44:19):
And you don't think that's foryour joy.
In the moment, you don't thinklike what you think is like how
dare you take from me the thingthat I hadn't given to you yet I
was planning on using that ifthings went south?
And God's like how about I justtake all the things that think
are keeping you safe or aregoing to protect you and I show
you through this process thatactually they're not and I'm the
(44:39):
only one that can actually takecare of you?
That process of pain andfrustration and selling the
field, or God, yanking the fieldout from underneath you, you
know, is actually for your joy.
It's a wonderful end game, butman, does it feel like just
having your arm pulled off inthe process?
Speaker 3 (45:01):
And it's possible to have great joy and great turmoil
, and we see Jesus with thatbefore the cross and saying if
there's any other way, but itsays that we're the joy set
before him.
So it's like, well, so whichone is it?
And it's like I guess it'spossible to have great pain and
great joy at the same time.
And yeah, I'm just telling youas possible.
(45:22):
And so, if you're, if you're,if you're, if you're, if you're,
if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if
you're, if you're, if you're ifyou're, if that's striking, it's
like you will never make it.
(45:42):
And sometimes I say that andpeople think I'm being harsh.
I'm just saying I've seen toomany people washed out.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, and it's like there's amazing moments of joy
and glory and victory.
But ironically, all thosemoments of joy and victory seem
to come from scraping the bottomof the glass of what you have
in your own walk, because it'slike you have to find out, you
have to come to the end ofyourself a lot to become a
deeper person.
It's like if you're, if you'regonna, if the Christian walk, is
(46:11):
you digging a well to be filledby the presence of God?
You dig it and you think, okay,there's enough water in there.
And God's like no man, I got somuch more.
And what does that mean?
You're going to have to emptyit out and dig deeper again and
again, and again.
And when do you tap out and sayI finally finished digging?
You serve an infinite God,buckle up.
(46:34):
But that process is as much ofa feeling of joy as it is a
labor of drought.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
And wouldn't that be the best way to be on your
deathbed?
Like if you make it 80 or 90years to be like I just kept
going, instead of like the guywho would stink if somebody had
a faithful life and then retiredat 70.
And it's like and what'd you do?
And it's like nothing Fell backinto bad habits.
It would be like what a waste.
What a loser it's like this ladythat has meant so much to me in
(47:03):
my life and you know she'sreally old right now and that
you know no more ministryopportunity, but she's like it
was worth it, he was worth it,jesus is worth it and it's just
like I want to do this for therest of my life.
I want to be saying the samething when it's just like
there's not like physically Ican't do anything.
All I can do now is pray untilthe Lord takes me home.
(47:23):
That is the coolest.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
That's it.
I have this picture in my headand it will probably not be this
cool, but it's like, at thesame time, I feel the grip.
Leave my hand, I will feelGod's grip on me.
That's what I'm confident ofand when that happens, I'm like
yes, yeah, like this, is it?
Like that's I?
Just that's cool.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah, I can't wait for that day.
Well, thank you guys forjoining AJ.
Thank you for being here, heyman, I'm always honored to be
here with you guys.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Good, a little bit of an edgy topic today in that
it's a little deep, but I alsothink it's good and probably
worth listening to people.
We Can I end Tim with a prayerfor some peeps?
(48:10):
I think it would be good.
Father God, I pray for anybodywho is wrestling with their own
calling today, wrestling withtheir own ministry.
I ask, lord, that this podcastwould actually be a line in the
sand kind of day for them, andthat you would use it as a word
to them right now to remind themof your faithfulness, your
goodness and the unique callthat you have on their life, and
that this would propel themforward in faith, to walk out
what you've called them to, lord, whatever the cost.
I pray that those words haththou no scar would just be
(48:34):
emblazoned in their mind andthey would remember, lord, that
you gave everything and becauseof that we get to give
everything.
Lord, we love you and we thankyou in Jesus' name, amen, amen.
guys, welcome back to navigate.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm with justin I'm here, my man he's here, and we
have another one.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
We got that aj.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hey, he's back yeah, the presence of, of, of pure
youth and punk rock come on isin the presence of, is part of
the podcast yeah, it's haunting.
It is haunting, this episode.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
It's about to get real edgy, you guys.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Real edgy.
It's about to get real.
One of those things is true.
I'll let you guys decide whichone Real or edgy.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
It's like Billy Corgan got saved and became a
youth pastor that now runs acampus.
It's awesome, it'd be sweet,that's true.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I think they would show up to that.
It's like hey, do you guys wantto see an ex-smashing pumpkin?
Instead of smashing pumpkins,it's smashing Satan Nice.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah, smashing, tell me your homeschool without
telling me your homeschool.
With that line, honestly, Iwant to say more, but I will say
less.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
We actually brought AJ up.
Last podcast with Bo, we weretalking about singles.
Yeah, we were mentioning howevery time we have Bo on, we
seem to talk about dating and AJalways seems to come on when we
talk about family, because youdid the Honor your Mother and
Father one with us.
Yeah, that was fun the lasttime.
Today I don't think we're goingto talk about families, so this
could be interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I have nothing to say this is it pal, this is it.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
If we talk about the economy or something, I'll be
like I don't know.
I don't know what we're talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I'm sorry, same here.
If we talk about the economy,all of us are probably going to
be a little bit left behind onthat.
Well, I'll just say what I doknow is I think money is good.
Not having money, that's bad.
That's bad, that's bad.
Gary North is great on thissubject.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
And I would just say everyone listen.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Austrian economics, that's the way to go.
I read Wealth of Nations once.
It was cool.
Don't care, I haven't movedmuch past that and I probably
should.
You know, now that we'retalking about this, I'm like,
okay, maybe I need to go plumbthe depths on this and get after
it.
We did an episode on money,didn't we, I think?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
we did.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
One Really.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
One.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Maybe we did.
I think we did two, I don'tremember.
Anyways, what the heck are wetalking about, bro Real?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
ascent.
You know, this just came to me,so we're going to just assume
God did as we do everything.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
So shall it be written so let it be done.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
You guys have been doing ministry full-time for
years now, so I'm curiousSilence.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
How do you oh gosh?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Let me start with some just basic questions for
you guys, if you don't mind measking.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Okay, first one how did you know I will not go out
with you, not after the lasttime I'm never going to stop
asking, so just get over it.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Good, no, how did you know when god had that calling
in your life to become what youare now?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
oh aj go ahead.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Okay, uh, for me I I really thought for years the
call of my life was to be inentertainment.
I wanted to be a comedian andeven when I really got serious
about God, like right after highschool, I thought that was me.
Being obedient to the Lord wasto pursue that.
So everything I was doing wasin light of pursuing that.
(03:16):
And that came about because ofwe would go to camps and stuff
and people would—I didn't evenhave the language of prophecy,
but people would speak in mylife and they would say God's
going to use you in ways ofbringing joy and laughter and
stuff.
And I'm like, yes, that's right, I'm going to be like Chris
(03:37):
Farley, that's what I want to be.
And so when I'm really pursuingthe Lord and still have that in
my heart, to do it out ofobedience and do it because it's
like, yeah, that's who I wascreated to be.
And as my wife and I gottogether and I realized that was
not in her heart at all, was tomarry somebody, that was going
to be an entertainment, thatthere was that.
(03:59):
Now what do I do?
I think I'm supposed to marrythis girl, but she doesn't want
to follow me in this dream Ihave.
And so it took the Lord to giveme a series of actual dreams I
had in the night that informedme and that's a long story, but
these dreams informed me that Iwas supposed to marry Adriel and
not.
I was supposed to actually giveup on this dream and I thought
(04:20):
I was betraying the Lord.
But as I had submitted thesethings to my pastor and he was
like I think actually what God'strying to tell you is that you
can trust him and you shouldpursue this thing that he's put
in your life, which is your wife.
So, as I did that and I'm likethere was like three or four
months where it just felt like adeath to me, where it was like
I don't know what I'm supposedto do with my life Other than
(04:42):
I'm supposed to marry this girland I'm a loser, where it was
like I don't know what I'msupposed to do with my life
Other than I'm supposed to marrythis girl and I'm a loser.
I don't know how to do anything.
I don't know.
I'm not smart, I don't know.
There's nothing I'm passionateabout except for making people
laugh.
That's the only thing that Icare about.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Can I throw something out?
Yeah, I feel like you have acrazy high IQ, for the record,
like it's.
You're actually incrediblyintelligent.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Well, I know that now , but at the time, like because
then years later still feelingthis low self-worth thing, so
I'm telling you this is how Ifelt then.
I don't have that self-worththing now.
Yeah, I mean, maybe I do, andthen the Lord's always, he's
always beating that out of me,like you, like you yourself as a
son.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I just think people think the funny guy is not smart
and I think it's a hundredpercent wrong, like most guys
that are comedians areincredibly intelligent, but as a
kid I'm thinking well, I'm sostupid.
Everybody just laughs at me.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
And then when I actually I went and got my IQ
test and tested.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Did you really?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, cause I thought I had autism.
I got a touch of the autism.
I thought I did, I read, I readan article about people on the
spectrum and I was like I am onthe spectrum, that's what's
happening.
So I went and I went and didtons of tests and they said so
there's like seven forms of ADD.
You have five of them and youyou have incredibly slow
(05:54):
processing.
Your processing skills are thatof like a middle school boy,
and so it's like below, belowaverage.
But then when we took the IQ,everything with the IQ, it's
like your IQ is above its geniuslevel and so I do have like
very, very high IQ.
But then I'm thinking that andthen I'm so offended at God even
in that time, this is like 2015.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I'm so offended.
It's like saying you have theathletic ability of Shaquille
O'Neal in the body of like.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Of Steve.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
DeVito, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah.
So I'm like great.
So the Lord gave me this andthere's no way I can use it and
there's no context I'm evergoing to be able to use it Again
.
This is how I'm feeling as ayoung man at 20 years old that
I'm thinking God gave me thisability and he's telling me I
can't use it.
And okay, so what do I do?
And I'm feeling terrible aboutmyself.
And then we go to this camp andwhen we're at the camp the same
(06:45):
one we brought the kids to fromBrave we brought the kids and I
told them this is the same room.
It was like right here I gotthe call of God in my life
because the past, like I, wasjust so passionate for worship.
And the pastor gives me the mic.
I said we need to encouragekids to worship.
They're like they're fallingasleep, they're not doing it and
he's like he gives me the micand I just start pouring my
(07:05):
heart out, like we're going toworship God.
And in this time I'm like thisis who I am.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I ministered for 45 minutes or so you found who you
were, and it was like, yes, thisis what I'm called to do, is
that?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
And I remember ministering.
And then I went and got on thefloor, just face before the Lord
, you know, just on my face,just like my face was like, just
like I got up and it was carpetmarks all over my face and just
like I know who I am, liketotally got up, a totally
changed person, like I'm goingto spend the rest of my life
pursuing, like teenagers, forJesus.
And so even now, when it's like, yeah, but that's not totally
(07:40):
what you're doing, you're not ayouth pastor, it's just like
it's people for Jesus, I guess Idon't know.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Spiritual children, yeah, spiritual children.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Or even, like you know, I'm talking to all these
adults in the room, but I stillsee the teenagers.
I see people and I love them.
I see teenagers and Iimmediately get weepy and it's
just like come follow Jesus,yeah.
So there's something that'sstill there where it's like,
yeah, I can do anything Godtells me to do, but you get me
around teenagers, and there'ssomething.
I'm a very different person.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
That's so funny.
So I had to teach chapel thismorning for our middle school
and high school kids and I waslike I hate this, I hate this
stuff Like.
I'm in the larger room with allthe kids and I'm teaching on
prudence and I'm like, yeah,it's great.
And then there's like apost-session you do with the
high school kids and I was like,oh my gosh, I hate high school
so much.
And I was literally thinkingabout you, aj.
I was like he would be overhere, like this was the best
(08:32):
thing ever and I'm sitting herelike I need a cigarette and I
don't smoke.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, and you've got to find what.
When I talk to people that wantto be in ministry, it's like
what makes you come alive?
And they're like I don't know,just like maybe I just start
preaching and someday I'll belike pastor Jeff, and it's like
you won't make it.
You're going to get reallyoffended at God, and the best
thing that would happen is ifyou, if you, if someone beats
(09:01):
you up now, if think that youcan preach and then at some
point, because it's going to beso heavy in your heart, it will
kill you and you'll be offendedat God.
You'll be offended at all thepeople you tried to lead, and
it's like, whenever I see peopledoing ministry, my heart gets
heavy.
I want to brag on a guy that wehave here named Joe Martinez.
He's the guy that I wanted tobe.
(09:22):
He's our kids pastor and I'mlike not a lot of people are
going to make it.
You're going to make it, butwatching him get the crap kicked
out of him in ministry, it'sjust like this is part of this,
is the way.
This is part of it and itactually affirms it in me.
Like to him, I'm like you'regoing to like God's.
This is the call in your life.
This is the call in your lifeJust don't give up, and I don't
(09:42):
you know.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Dude, that's it, yeah , that's it Like.
To me it's like what's thedifference between Judas and
Peter?
Peter came back, yeah, he keptgoing until they crucified him
upside down and he wasn't goingto quit.
Like there's something about,like how do you know you're
called to this Because I'm stillhere.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Sometimes people are likeyou're doing a good job and
sometimes people say you're notdoing a good job and I'm like I
guess it's irrelevant.
It's not like whether I'm goodat this or not.
I'm called to it and I have todo this, whether we succeed or
not.
And it's like what happens ifyou do this and you let people
down.
That's a possibility.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
But I guess I have to go for Jesus.
I have a matrix that I runthings through for comments.
Tim, I don't know, I feel likewe're you're in the middle of a
different conversation.
I can come back to my story alittle bit, but I'm going to
throw this in here for theaverage person.
So I was talking to somebodyabout this this morning In my
questioning of how things aregoing, and when somebody brings
something up or like you know,you beat yourself up and then
(10:40):
you have this, you know this,the Bible, which will just
destroy you.
I kind of run things throughthat spiral, like for me, okay,
this person said this about me.
Do I think that about myself?
Does the Bible think that'strue about me?
Right, if the Bible says this,okay, how am I doing compared to
(11:01):
the people around me?
And where do I think I land onthis possibility, if I like we
should constantly be runningthings through a cycle, and I
was talking to one of our guysabout this, cause he was, he was
bringing up.
He's like, hey, the other day Itold you I was really mad at
myself, like like veryfrustrated, cause I spent more
time on my phone than I wantedto.
(11:22):
How much time are you spendingon your phone?
He's like maybe an hour.
And I was like, okay, so you'renot doing that bad, it could be
a lot worse.
And he was like, well, whywould you minimize something
that's bad?
And I was like, well, if youcame in here like I'm doing
awesome.
I'd be like you know what Godsays about you, don't you?
(11:44):
You know what I mean.
Like there's a I've met people.
Run where you're at through toget a perspective of where
you're actually at, like the youare here in your spiritual walk
.
Is this combination of what Godis saying is true, which is the
ultimate lens?
That I should run everythingthrough the reality of the world
around me and where do I findmyself?
(12:06):
And then ultimately also like myown opinion, and if you're only
paying attention to your ownopinion, that's a problem.
If you're only ever looking atthe Bible, you're just going to
walk around destroyed 100% ofthe time.
Like I guess, if I'm alwaysmeasuring myself with me and God
, I guess I'm just trash all thetime and I never like God.
Jesus doesn't even do that.
We're supposed to grow in thecontext of community and so you
(12:26):
also want to be taking intoconsideration what other people
are saying.
So anytime somebody sayssomething about you know me,
about this you're doing a goodjob, you're doing a bad job, or
how I feel about myself.
Like there should be thisspiral of okay, now I'm going to
take that, I'm going to run itthrough other people, I'm going
to run it through scripture, I'mgoing to run it through my own
brain and I'm going to start totry to develop where I actually
am in this process.
And if you only camp on one ofthose, you're probably not
(12:49):
growing yeah, totally or you'regoing to stall yourself.
So just throwing that out therefor anybody who's getting those
comments.
And maybe you're like trying tofigure out ministry in your own
life and you're like I don'tknow if I'm good or how's this
going.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Running through the matrix.
That's funny.
You bring that up because mywife came home one day and
brought something up.
She's like oh, he thought I wasthis and I no not at all she
got mad and then she asked acouple of other people.
They all agreed with me.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
It kind of wrecked her a little bit, but for good,
for good, and you know, likeJames, one talks about that of,
like you know, looking at thelaw, or you know, we look at the
word and then, um, the personthat that walks away and they
forget what they look like walksaway and they forget what they
look like.
Yeah, and it's.
There's so many people thatwith Christians, you try you, we
, as we, so, as we minister, wetry to help people and when
(13:38):
people don't actually want help,they're like nope, that's not
me, and it's just like look, I'mholding you up to the word of
God, I'm not trying and this andlook this.
So my opinion is is just, it'sjust that it's my opinion, but
then I'm going to hold it up tothe word of the word of God and
I'm going to show you this andsomeone's like you can tell me
that, but I'm like I won't do it.
(14:00):
You have you have salad in yourteeth.
Yeah, no no, I don't think so,and it's just like.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I'm telling you something that's objectively
true, right now you smell.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Okay.
Well, I guess you could do that.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
But some people have no brain at all and they don't
have any opinions except forother people's opinions of them,
and that's equally problematic,right, yeah?
But yeah, I just think it'scool hearing your story and hear
like, because I think anybodywho's in the ministry or working
through stuff you're going tohear comments.
You're going to be asking whoseopinion should I listen to, and
the right answer is all of themLike ultimately, God is the
(14:34):
final say in all things, butwhat I found is like God is the
backbone, but you're going toneed the Christian brothers and
sisters around you and your ownthoughts to try to put some
bones on the fullness of what itmeans to be you, yeah Well.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
And the Christianese people will say stuff like this,
like the only opinion thatmatters is God's.
It's like, ultimately, that'swhat we have to live by.
Right, if the Lord told you todo it, you should do it.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
That's like saying the only thing we should eat is
food Right.
What kind.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Yeah, totally.
And then it's like payattention, because if you're not
good at communicating andpeople are like I don't, like
when you communicate, all Ithink you're bad at this and
you're like their opiniondoesn't matter, only God's does.
And those guys always have tinyministries or they flunk out
and they say it's the people,the God.
You know, god wanted me to dothis, but the people are against
me.
It's like no, jesus grew infavor with God and with men.
(15:23):
Yeah, sounds like you quit.
Yeah, sounds like you quit andyou weren't able to like learn
like we do, but we absolutelyhave to learn.
So if someone's like I'm calledto be in ministry, god told me
so and then someone's like yep,and you need to dress
differently, or you need tolearn how to communicate, you
need to learn how to serve, andthey're like they can't tell me
(15:43):
what to do.
God told me to do this.
Those people never make it.
Or they church hop and tellsomebody oh man, people will
call and be like can I start aministry at your church?
I'm like I don't even never metyou before.
Do you go to this church?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
They're like no, but I'll mentor you on why I should
be here.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
How many times have you had that happen in your
career?
Like if you had to guess, like.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Since I started leading ministries, I mean, I
would say hundreds yeah.
One every like month or threemonths, some seasons it's two or
three times a week, yeah, andsome seasons it's like twice a
month.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Best ministry idea that's ever been floated by you.
That you're like if we had ajoke church, if our church was
just comedy, I would say, yes, Ihad somebody come and was like
shaking angry that we didn'thave a ministry for overweight
people Dude.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I were like they're like like shaking angry, like
you don't care about and I I'mtrying to say this in nice ways,
so I'm going to be careful herebut like the so angry that we
didn't care about the fatties.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
You know what I mean I was trying, that was trying, I
mean my response would havebeen like you don't even have.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
We're gonna do a small group at golden crab.
I had a nicer.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I had a nicer person come up with the same thing once
and they're like I would reallylike to do like a, like a small
group, like couch to 5k kind ofthing, and I was like, okay,
that's a better way to do it.
I was like, yeah, you shouldstart that.
But there's a differencebetween coming up like I have an
idea and somebody like how dareyou not accommodate us with
some spirit, don't you know?
That this is the temple and I'mlike you don't look like a
(17:23):
temple.
This is not on me.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Well, what about you, Justin?
I don't think I actually knowwhat dream you had in life
before you got saved.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Oh man, Before I got saved, I had no dream.
I wanted to win.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
AJ was talking about being a comedian and all that.
So I'm curious did you havesomething in mind?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I wanted to be a firefighter originally.
Remember that?
Yeah, I wanted to be an EMT, Iwas planning on getting my EMT
and then I was going to be afirefighter and then I ended up
in the kitchen instead, which isthe strangest.
Like I remember looking aroundthinking how did I get here?
And it was kind of awesome,Like I was in the kitchen world
(18:01):
like right before all of itstarted getting really trendy
and Food Network just took over.
But it was like housewives lostcontrol of Food Network and it
slipped into the hands of theentire population.
I feel like, is what happened.
And suddenly you had GordonRamsey's and all these people.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
So I don't know where they have these Tik TOK, famous
influencer, cook, chef peoplethat could get millions of
dollars a year.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, it's a.
So it was kind of weird for me,man, like I got saved when I
was in the kitchen world and myfirst thought was, man, I want
nothing to do with the church.
Because I feel like when I gotsaved, I was like, well, what I
know about the church is they'rea bunch of liars and terrible
people and none of them arereally serious.
And I gave my life to Christand my thought was, well, I'm
(18:48):
going to start something.
That's the real deal.
You know what I mean.
And so we started a Bible studywith like four guys and it was
cool.
It turned into like 50 and wewere pushing couches away and
like trying to stuff a bunch ofyoung people into a room.
And at some point Timmy I thinkI've said this before but I
realized that if all the peoplethat were represented in that
group that we had meetingtogether represented a category
(19:11):
of lukewarm Christian or personthat was going to be in a church
, then I basically had the sameratios and I was realizing that,
oh, you don't have the abilityto, um, at least to some level,
create the quality of disciplethat you want.
You're not doing somethingdifferent, You're doing the same
thing but acting like you'redoing something special, and it
kind of kind of hit me.
Um, my thought was I'm nevergoing to do full-time ministry,
(19:34):
I'm just going to do ministryfor the rest of my life, like
that's kind of like that waswhat was happening in my head.
And then I got a couple ofweird things happened to me.
People started telling mearound me like dude, this is,
you're really good at this man.
God's given you the gift ofwisdom, god's given you the gift
of this or that or whatever.
And I was like, okay, cool,thanks.
And um, I I gotta remember Igot an opportunity to speak at
(19:56):
this thing and I had, I think,25 pages of content and it took
me four minutes.
It was like my wedding night.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Like it was I shouldn't have said that I'm
sorry, um and uh.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
You know, it was like stuff like that, where I was
like, and I had those momentswhere I was like this is not for
me, I shouldn't.
Uh, you know, it was like stufflike that where I was like and
I had those moments where I waslike this is not for me, I
shouldn't do that, you know.
And what am I even doing?
Blah, blah, blah.
Um.
But then I had a.
I had a legit vision.
I'm not going to lie, like,like every.
I'll just lost everycessationist that listens to the
show, probably.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
But hear me, out, I think the most vivid, crazy.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Like the closest thing I could give an example to
it is a daydream, but it wasnot a daydream Like I was in it
and I had this picture of me andI was at a pulpit and I was
teaching on Jeremiah, verse 20or chapter 20.
And I remember it was like 9through 11, like that classic
passage that everybody talksabout and I was watching people
(20:54):
filling the pews and it was likeit was a room that kept getting
bigger and the rows kept goingfarther and farther and farther
back.
And I remember staring likewhat is this?
And it vanished in front of myface and I heard God say pretty
darn clearly preach the word,make disciples, love your family
.
And it was like okay, whateverthat means.
Like I have that you know thatwhole thing in detail written
(21:20):
out in some journal somewhereyou know what I mean In a box
and you know in a storage closetor something.
But it was pretty crazy.
Man, when I got saved, my firstthought was I'm going to study,
I'm not going to be part of thechurch, I'm going to do ministry
for the rest of my life, butI'm going to do it on the side
to shove it in the face of thoselying pastors who suck and
don't know what they're actuallydoing.
And God just humbled me reallyfast by showing me that, man, I
don't know what I'm talkingabout.
(21:41):
I desperately need all of thosepeople.
Yeah, there's a lot of liarsout there, but there's a lot of
solid men who are working hardto figure this stuff out, like
you are.
And so that, um, that thatvision kind of solidified some
stuff for me.
Man, some crazy stuff happenedin my life.
After that I had a couple otherpeople confirm some stuff, but
after that it was basically likeokay, well, I'm just going to
(22:02):
keep doing what I'm doing and ifit really is from God, then
he's going to put me there.
I'm not going to have to changemuch of what I'm doing, cause
I'm already studying, I'malready reading, I'm already
teaching, I'm already leading,I'm already serving.
Um, eventually it just wentfrom like buckshot, where I was
doing everything that I couldpossibly get my hands on, to I'm
primarily doing teaching andcoaching and developing roles
(22:24):
for the people that I'm around.
And I was doing that inkitchens too, like it didn't
change really what I was doing,just kind of the Avenue in which
I was deploying those gifts andum, eventually, uh, stepped
into a spot where I was able todo it full time.
And then it's just kind ofgrown from there, man.
But yeah, it was, uh, it was,um, it was a passion that God
(22:45):
lit in my heart with an, with anindeterminate way that things
are going to happen.
And then I feel like I had alegit vision and a kind of a I
would say as close to audible asI can imagine kind of spoken to
me just three things, and I'vebeen I wrote that on my wall for
the longest.
That was on my wall for likefour years was yeah, yeah, yeah,
(23:06):
had that stuff set up and I'vebeen pursuing that ever since.
I am a firm believer that if Godhas a will for your life, you
just keep being faithful in thethings that he's called you to
do and then he'll create theroad and the place in which he
wants you to do it.
And if you throw yourself outearly and like, oh, I have to do
this, so I got to go to thisplace or got to go to that thing
(23:27):
, I actually think it's thewrong way.
You just keep being faithful,work on you and what God has
called you to do, and I think hemakes that Red Sea Road for
anybody who's willing to befaithful.
And I mean, it's such a sillything to say to him because I
got to be straight.
And, aj, I know this is thesame for you too.
I say that and it's like, yeah,it all just happened.
There was so much pain in thatprocess that I almost can't even
(23:49):
describe to you how manypunches you got to take, not
only for yourself, but becauseof all the people that you're
trying to pour into and helpalong the way, that it feels
like dying man.
Um, but if you knew, if youknew that that's the only way
that you can really live.
Like, yeah, but if I don't dothis, I'm not being true to what
I know I'm supposed to do.
Um, you know what I mean.
(24:10):
Like, there's that.
There's just that tension there.
I don't know how to explain it,but anybody who's been in that
spot where they know this iswhat I'm supposed to do, knows
what it's like to experience thepain of staying in that spot,
even even when it hurts.
And if you quit, shame on you.
Yeah, shame on you.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah, okay.
So, as you're saying that,share these verses because
Adrian and I wanted to give upso early in our ministry, and
anybody maybe.
This is a good like if you'regoing to come up with a title.
It's like aspiring ministers,just like anybody that wants to
be at making ministry, becauseyou need to hear these real
stories.
That it's.
It's really.
It's glorious when it'sglorious, but for the most part
(24:47):
it's mundane and painful and uhand and it doesn't make any
sense.
Like most of the stuff thathappens doesn't make any sense.
It makes sense in retrospect.
Yeah, it helps you, it helps youon, like we've been doing it
now full time since 2009.
So what is that?
16 years and then, but evenbefore that, like you know, then
it was like two years of justlike pursuing so all these years
(25:08):
and it's just like I can maybeforesee things better now, but
the way I foresee it now is likewhat's going to happen next?
It's like we have no idea.
It'll be fine, it'll be fine,but like, instead of being like,
predict the next few years aslike, oh no clue, pastor on the
moon or something.
Okay.
So this verse, the day I wantedto quit probably one of the
harshest times of wanting toquit and I went away to go call
(25:30):
my mentor and then my wife satin the car because we were in
Green Bay, wisconsin.
We were at a restaurant inOshkosh.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
That was your first mistake was living in Green Bay.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Living in Green Bay was like the Lord's way of being
, like I'm going to take youaway from everything you know
and people are not going tothink you're funny at all.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Your one gift that you have people didn't laugh at
all, so I'd get out there andtell jokes and nobody would
laugh.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
And my little brother said that's actually the
funniest thing.
It's like at the end ofSeinfeld when Seinfeld's up
there telling jokes in prison,they're like we're going to kill
you, he's like, that's whatit's like, and I was like,
that's exactly what it's like.
It was just dude, nothing workedfor us.
And so, okay, my mentor tellsme these verses and then Adri,
the Lord, speaks it to my wifein the car.
(26:11):
It's Ecclesiastes 11, startingin verse 3.
If the clouds are full, theypour out rain upon the earth,
and whether a tree falls towardthe south or toward the north,
wherever the tree falls, thereit lies.
He who watches the wind willnot sow, and he who looks at the
clouds will not reap.
Just as you do not know thepath of the wind and how bones
are formed in the womb of thepregnant woman, so you do not
know how the activity of God,who makes all things.
(26:32):
So you're seed in the morningand do not be idle in the
evening, for you do not knowwhether morning or evening
sowing will succeed, or whetherboth of them alike will be good.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Man, that's so good.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
If you're going to be in ministry, you have to be
convinced.
God called you to do it and youdo it.
And it's like but nothing works.
And it's like yep, and it'slike yep, and it's like and I
might die in this, it's like yep.
There's no promise of success.
There's no the.
Your reward is the lord, andthat's it.
And it's like but what if thepeople don't respond?
They don't like me.
That I mean.
As cruel as it sounds.
It's like what if that's thewill of god for you?
(27:04):
What?
Speaker 2 (27:04):
if that's the plan yeah, what if god?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
if god required it of you, would you give it to him?
If you knew that, like he wasproud of you, he was, was happy
with you.
Dude, that's it.
And if you don't, if someone'slike, no, I got to have this,
it's like you're not going tomake it because you are going to
look at the wind.
You're going to try to, you'regoing to try to judge this.
Is it working at night?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Is it working?
In the morning, you will judgewhether or not you're being
obedient by what other peopleare doing around you and that
kill the calling on your life isjudging faithfulness by whether
or not you think it's working.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, and there's the seasons where it's like working
and you're like this is great,this is great and it's like
you're being set up for a hugefault, because, as soon as it
stops, as people stop tellingyou that they like you, your
funds dry up.
Like for me, dude, miracles is abig thing.
Like I want to pray formiracles, so we're seeing
miracles.
Pray for miracles, so we'reseeing miracles.
My personal life is a messinside of myself, hate myself,
(28:01):
but I'm praying and seeingmiracles happen and so I assume
this is God saying this is okay.
And then, as those things dryup, and then I lose my ministry
and then I'm still praying forpeople.
I'm working at King Sooperspraying for people in the store.
People are getting healed.
At King Soopers, praying forpeople in the store.
People are getting healed.
I'm thinking, see, god affirmsme.
It's okay for me to hate myself, it's okay for me to have a
secret life that my wife doesn'tknow about.
All these things are okay.
(28:22):
And then, as all those thingsdry up and it's just like I have
nothing to give.
Like this is me at my low pointin like 2017, 2018.
I have nothing to give theworld and the Lord's like, and I
because it's not about that,it's because I love you Like
just dude that's all Dude.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Now I want to live there.
But like the the whole, likewhere, where these jars of clay
like that are like you know,we're broken, we're cracked, we
leak.
Those moments where God meetsyou and I was like it's me, yeah
(28:58):
, it's me, and, and, and youhave these moments.
You're like, you're right, it'syou, I don't care, I just want
your, I just want to be with you, I just want to.
But but then, like we're notmeant to sit at the feet of
Jesus for the rest of our life,he sends us out, and then we're
like and then we start trying tomeasure success again by the
things around it and it it canbe exhausting, but like that,
what you're saying is a hundredpercent right.
If you're doing this, for whatit's going to produce, oh my.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
It'll be, it'll be disappointing, but if you, if
you're like this jar that's likeI will be continually filled
and I will continually pour itout.
I will pour everything out andit's like what?
What happens if they don'tappreciate you?
It's not about them, it's noteven about me.
I like the picture of the rag.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Because to me it's more like being wrung out you
know Like there's days where itfeels like is there anything
left in there?
Yep, we got more.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
You know, God's like, I'm going to get it out of you.
And then you get thrown in thewater.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
You're like thank God , I'm alive again.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I'm going to bring you out again.
I was telling you yesterday Iwas First time in months to me,
and when did you feel thatstrength come back?
In pursuit of the Lord.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, you left your environment, went somewhere else
, started praying.
God was like what's up?
Yeah, oh yeah, we're friends.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yes, and it felt so good, like I was telling Tim and
some of the other ministers andstuff on our staff here.
It's like I'm pouring out but Idon't feel like I have anything
left.
And and God has been faithfulevery week.
But I'm like I, you know, I goto seek the Lord.
I don't feel like I haveanything.
And even in those times whereit's just like but what do you
do?
It's just like you just keepletting yourself be wrung out.
(30:24):
And if the Lord says, now I'mdone with you, then you could
say, great, now I can be donewith ministry and do something
else.
But until then, if he's likeI'm going to ring you up,
there's nothing left, and it'sjust like then you're going to
be faithful to fill me, you'regoing to be faithful to do these
things.
And what happens if we pray andno one receives Christ?
What happens if we pray andeveryone?
Or what happens if we go up anddo ministry and they say we
(30:45):
don't even like your churchanymore and we leave?
So what?
And until you come to thatplace of so what, I will do it.
No matter what the cost, youcan do ministry.
There's a danger, though.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Like what if you are wrong?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Well, there's a tension here.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
God's like I didn't call you to this.
You've just been doing your ownthing.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Let me bring you back to the matrix I was talking to
you about.
Okay, you'll run it throughthis process of like what has
God said?
What do I know?
What do the people around mecommunicate?
Don't lean on any one of those.
As the, let's say, is the onlysource for communication.
And I keep saying this and I'mtrying to be careful because I
(31:22):
don't want anybody to hear mesay people and yourself are on
an equal playing field with theWord of God 100% not.
I'm saying that the Bible isthe spine.
And then your own walk andrelationship with God and how
that's playing out, and thenyour interaction with the body
of Christ and the world aroundyou then helps flesh out what
(31:44):
that functionally looks like.
And if you look at who theelders became in scripture, it's
like Paul grabs all thesepeople, start hanging out
together, working together, andthere's just some people who
rose to the top.
It's like, yeah, dude, this isyou Like.
Why did he pick Timothy?
You ever asked this question?
I mean, maybe you guys haven'tasked, but it literally says he
was well-known among the peoplein Lystra, like he was just.
(32:05):
I think it was Lystra, it mighthave been Iconium.
But he basically says, like allthese people.
He was just well-known, he wasa dude who was, he was a good
guy.
And Paul is like, hey, you'recoming with me, and I think so,
this matrix of like, what arethe thoughts, uniquely, that God
has put in my own heart?
What has God confirmed to me inhis word and what have I seen
from the people of God that Itrust?
(32:26):
And then, if you have thosethree things, it doesn't really
matter where you're going afterthat, because the confirmation
of the call has already happened.
So, if you know that's the case, if I know, hey, in front of my
face, I had like a screen rolldown in front of me and play
this vision out.
And then it was followed by Godtelling me these three things
that I'm supposed to do with mylife.
(32:47):
And then I have people around mesaying dude, I think this is
something God's doing.
And then, in my own heart, Iknow I've been wanting to do
ministry.
I just was demanding not to doit the way that God wanted me to
.
Okay, well, I have a prettygood confirmation of those
things and I'll go do it Now.
Here's the thing in the moment,it's not enough.
All of that could happen to you.
All right, and you're theperson who's like well, if that
(33:07):
happened to me, then I woulddefinitely be doing it.
If God came to me in a dream,like AJ Liar, it's no less of a
step of faith when you havethose things than it is if you
don't.
If God puts something on yourheart and you're supposed to
walk it out, it's going to bethere.
But again, looking throughscripture, what you find is the
(33:28):
people that were called to thingwent through a ton of
difficulty, usually before theycame into the blessing, and
that's usually where people quit.
I mean, even if you think aboutJesus, he gets baptized.
Right, god sends the spirit toconfirm.
A voice comes from the sky.
This is my son, whom I love, ofwhom I'm well pleased.
He's baptized.
You know, the sky part is likethis is the Messiah.
(33:50):
And then what happens?
Right to the desert, straightto hell.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Satan's going to now just wreck your life.
For the next 40 days You're notgoing to eat, and if you just
play this out in somebody'sregular life, okay.
So let's say you're called tosomething that matters.
You think you're not going tobe tested.
You think you're not going towalk through a process where you
doubt everything, where youwalk through struggle after
struggle, where you feel likeyou're failed and where you feel
(34:18):
like I'm empty.
I'm empty.
I'm empty.
Why am I empty?
So that you can get filled up,like that's.
This is the way, this is theprocess.
We got to wring out of you thecrap that needs to go, so that
you can begin to be filled withthe spirit, instead of whatever
it is that you thought youbrought.
And so many people just quit.
Man, and I don't mean to be ajerk about it, I just I guess I
(34:42):
just want to encourage peopleLike, if you, if you accept the
call from God, then you starttaking punches.
That's a good sign.
Yeah, welcome to the fight, bro.
Glad you're here.
We need more people that cantake punches, not more people
that can throw swords.
Like swords, great, but I needmore.
Like we need more shields rightnow, cause until you can learn
how to hold a shield, youshouldn't even swing that sword.
(35:04):
You know, you're going to needit.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
That's very true.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
I hope that at least maybe gives somebody courage.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
I think you're hinting at something that I've
figured out for myself, talkingabout calling ministry, because
I've struggled with you knowthis vocation, all that.
Still don't know what theheck's going on with me Vocation
.
Someday I'll figure it out whenI'm dead.
But I've come to my consensusof I don't and I gotta be
careful with this, because thesetwo guys can literally fire me,
so I gotta be careful.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
He's like the pastors that you work for could be
totally idiots.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
I work with this guy.
He's an idiot.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
There are times, a lot of times.
More often than not, I do notlike my job.
Right, just the routine of myjob.
Another toilet's leaking, areyou serious?
I get really frustrated.
But what God kind of revealedto me, over the last couple
months even, was that that'syour job.
That's not what you do, yeah.
So figure out what you do hereand then decide because it was a
(35:59):
moment, you know what.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
I mean that's a word, bro.
Yeah, it was great, that's sogood.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
And what I've come up with is like what I do for our
church is I make ministry easier?
And I make you guys look betterthan you actually are.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, I say that jokingly almost but not really.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
No, but that's real, it's not a joke.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
It's the truth, because those are things that
have been indicted In a lot ofways.
You, oh I was a someone youcould lean on in the kitchen
days.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
You know what I mean.
So, Bro, that's such a goodword.
This is what I'm doing.
This is not my ministry.
Yeah, the ministry, this is aby-product of the ministry that
I do here.
These tasks are part of thething that I'm actually trying
to accomplish, not not the solepurpose and you're doing what,
what?
Speaker 1 (36:40):
what is it you're doing here?
You know, can I?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
tell you from a personal experience, tim, just
the same thing from like adifferent angle.
Yep, like so.
So I ran um, you know, men'sministry, I think, I don't know.
It was like four years ofpreaching every, uh, friday and
I do, you know, mondays andteaching, and I was doing
internships.
I just teach all the time.
It's like it's non-stop teaching, which I like.
Like my primary gifting isteaching, all right, but I
(37:06):
started having this problem likegod, is this it?
Like I just talk and thenpeople don't change and then we
just keep doing it.
You know, yeah, there's thislike real and that's a lie,
because ultimately, all kinds ofcool stuff was happening.
I just think we can start tobelieve that the thing we're
doing, um, is like the pointinstead of this is a, this is
(37:26):
actually a piece of the largerpicture of what is going on in
the kingdom.
Yeah, and if you stop lookingat the bigger picture of fruit
that's being produced and thingsgoing on, you really can.
You can beat the heck out ofyourself and talk yourself out
of some really important thingsand even rob people from the
things that God wanted to do intheir life through you, because
(37:48):
you've talked yourself out of it.
You know yeah, but yeah, it'ssuch a good word, man.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Yeah, man, and I think that people should realize
, like, like God isn't makingnot important parts, you know,
and like the body of Christ,everything is important and
everything has a function.
And so sometimes people arelike, well, I wish I could do
something and be heroic orwhatever.
But I'm remembering the storyEnder's game, um, which you know
(38:14):
we named my son, uh, like hismiddle name is Ender, but like
the the he thinks he's justplaying a game.
I game, I'm going to just spoilit for everybody right now.
But he really he's saving theworld and they don't know.
He doesn't know until afterit's over.
And it's like all that stuffthat looked like a test.
It was actually you were reallywinning the war, and he was
like he had no idea.
(38:34):
And I'm like I think thatthere's most of the stuff that
we're doing that is going to begood and exploits for the Lord,
there's going to be maybe notmost of it, I don't know,
there's got to be a big portionof it that we have no idea that
this is what's important andit's just like you mean, what
I'm doing right now, this is thething that matters and the
stuff that makes me feel likeI'm a hero or going to do
(38:55):
something important.
That stuff is less importantand it's like so just being able
to say I'm not going to payattention to my feelings, I'm
going to just do it out ofobedience.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
I think about this all the time with the birth of
Christ, because they think hewas born in these birthing caves
for these lambs that wouldlater be sacrificed, which is
just mind-blowing to me rightoff the bat.
But thinking about who is theguy, who is the stonemason who
broke his back carving out thesestupid caves, that thinks that
(39:27):
what I'm doing is useless andmeaningless and he doesn't
realize it's going to later beinhabited by the king of glory
himself.
Yeah, like literally emmanuelgod with us, the hope of the
world, is going to be born intothis cave and every stroke you
know you're making with thatpickaxe or whatever you think is
(39:49):
just another stroke.
It's not like.
This is deep magic that you'retapping into here, but you don't
see it and you don't get it.
I think that's that really iswhat scripture is getting at all
the time.
I feel like it's just repletewith this Like what you do
matters, god's using it.
It's like it's eternal.
Everything you do in Christ isthis cataclysmic, beautiful big
(40:12):
thing.
But you're like.
You're like in a.
You're like in a simulation youknow what I mean when you're
playing some.
You know you're playing aTetris or something in real life
, but behind the scenes.
It's actually building kingdomcities and one day you're going
to take the VR goggles off andsee like oh man, there was more
going on here.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Well, and so that goes to speak of our human
experience.
It's like, well, why can't Godjust show us that?
It's like there's no way youcould understand that these
things can only be understood infaith, they can be appraised
spiritually.
So to the spiritual man likethese things, these things make
sense.
But to the carnal man, thesethings can, they can only be
spiritually appraised.
So you tell you, tell ministersthat kind of stuff too.
(40:52):
Do it in faith, do the thingsthat you, that you sense God
telling you to do, do it withjoy and obedience.
I'm you know how will I know,and it's just like, well, they
have to be spiritually appraisedand a carnal person could never
, will never, see what they'redoing is important, unless
somebody else tells them thatwas important.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yeah, yeah, I think I was thinking about a poem, tim,
actually from Amy Carmichael,just thinking about people who
are doing ministry and thedifficulty and what comes
through that and what God'sbearing behind the scene, and
like every, every little thingmattering, um, and I, I just I'm
(41:33):
going to read this to you and Ihope it hits you the same way
it hit me, cause the first timeI read it I think I actually
like teared up and probably hadsome tears, cause I was just
thinking about the significanceof it.
But it's, it's.
It's called um, no scar.
Is what it's called.
Has thou no scar, no hidden scaron foot or side or hand?
I hear these song is mighty inthe land.
(41:53):
I hear them hail thy brightascendant star.
Has thou no scar?
Has thou no wound?
Yet I was wounded by the archer, spent, leaned me against the
tree to die and rent by ravingbeast that encompassed me.
I swooned hast thou no wound?
No wound, no scar.
Yet as the master shall theservant be.
And pierced are the feet thatfollow me, but thine are whole.
(42:15):
Can he have followed far?
Who has no wound, no scar?
I read that poem like this isthe way I read that poem?
Like ooh, this is the way youknow, like if you're going to
follow Jesus with his piercedhands and his pierced feet, you
better prepare to have bloodcoming out of your hands and
feet as you're following him,and that that is the mark of
(42:39):
life.
The wounds are evidence thatyou did something.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
You did something.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Yeah yeah, the people with no wounds and no scars are
those who never went to war.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Yeah, right, and Well , and you meet the best
Christians.
We meet the people that havestories and you talk to them,
especially when they have lotsof joy and they're and then they
tell you about the tragicthings that have happened.
And it's just like I like Ithink people always assume
they're making this up.
They're making up their how,either how bad it was or how
(43:09):
happy they are right now.
But I'll tell you, the morethat I follow Jesus, the more
that I realize he's so worth it.
And if you keep it, once Jesusbecomes your prize, it becomes
very much like why aren't you,why aren't you afraid or why
aren't you sad about thesethings?
And it's like there's justsomething greater.
And if you never come to theMatthew 13, 44 thing, you've
never actually sold everythingand bought the field.
(43:30):
And again, I guess I only speakto ministers in this Like it is
true for every Christian.
But for people that are like Iwant to do something great for
God, and it's like if youhaven't sold the field and it
hasn't been great joy, you'regoing to go back.
Yeah, you're going to.
You're always going to go backand you're going to be offended
at God.
And it's uh, and I can't tellyou just have more joy.
(43:50):
It's like the only way you canhave that is you've seen Jesus
and all of a sudden it's likeit's totally worth it Did.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I remember one of the worst points in my entire life.
All right, Just being honest,it was like I could not hit a
lower low.
All right, and and I I think weprobably hit on this in some
other podcasts.
I won't go crazy in depth, butI remember saying out loud to
God okay, I literally havenothing else to give.
Like I don't know what else youwant.
You win that, there's nothingleft.
(44:19):
And you don't think that's foryour joy.
In the moment, you don't thinklike what you think is like how
dare you take from me the thingthat I hadn't given to you yet I
was planning on using that ifthings went south?
And God's like how about I justtake all the things that think
are keeping you safe or aregoing to protect you and I show
you through this process thatactually they're not and I'm the
(44:39):
only one that can actually takecare of you?
That process of pain andfrustration and selling the
field, or God, yanking the fieldout from underneath you, you
know, is actually for your joy.
It's a wonderful end game, butman, does it feel like just
having your arm pulled off inthe process?
Speaker 3 (45:01):
And it's possible to have great joy and great turmoil
, and we see Jesus with thatbefore the cross and saying if
there's any other way, but itsays that we're the joy set
before him.
So it's like, well, so whichone is it?
And it's like I guess it'spossible to have great pain and
great joy at the same time.
And yeah, I'm just telling youas possible.
(45:22):
And so, if you're, if you're,if you're, if you're, if you're,
if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're, if
you're, if you're, if you're ifyou're, if that's striking, it's
like you will never make it.
(45:42):
And sometimes I say that andpeople think I'm being harsh.
I'm just saying I've seen toomany people washed out.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, and it's like there's amazing moments of joy
and glory and victory.
But ironically, all thosemoments of joy and victory seem
to come from scraping the bottomof the glass of what you have
in your own walk, because it'slike you have to find out, you
have to come to the end ofyourself a lot to become a
deeper person.
It's like if you're, if you'regonna, if the Christian walk, is
(46:11):
you digging a well to be filledby the presence of God?
You dig it and you think, okay,there's enough water in there.
And God's like no man, I got somuch more.
And what does that mean?
You're going to have to emptyit out and dig deeper again and
again, and again.
And when do you tap out and sayI finally finished digging?
You serve an infinite God,buckle up.
(46:34):
But that process is as much ofa feeling of joy as it is a
labor of drought.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
And wouldn't that be the best way to be on your
deathbed?
Like if you make it 80 or 90years to be like I just kept
going, instead of like the guywho would stink if somebody had
a faithful life and then retiredat 70.
And it's like and what'd you do?
And it's like nothing Fell backinto bad habits.
It would be like what a waste.
What a loser it's like this ladythat has meant so much to me in
(47:03):
my life and you know she'sreally old right now and that
you know no more ministryopportunity, but she's like it
was worth it, he was worth it,jesus is worth it and it's just
like I want to do this for therest of my life.
I want to be saying the samething when it's just like
there's not like physically Ican't do anything.
All I can do now is pray untilthe Lord takes me home.
(47:23):
That is the coolest.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
That's it.
I have this picture in my headand it will probably not be this
cool, but it's like, at thesame time, I feel the grip.
Leave my hand, I will feelGod's grip on me.
That's what I'm confident ofand when that happens, I'm like
yes, yeah, like this, is it?
Like that's I?
Just that's cool.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah, I can't wait for that day.
Well, thank you guys forjoining AJ.
Thank you for being here, heyman, I'm always honored to be
here with you guys.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Good, a little bit of an edgy topic today in that
it's a little deep, but I alsothink it's good and probably
worth listening to people.
We Can I end Tim with a prayerfor some peeps?
(48:10):
I think it would be good.
Father God, I pray for anybodywho is wrestling with their own
calling today, wrestling withtheir own ministry.
I ask, lord, that this podcastwould actually be a line in the
sand kind of day for them, andthat you would use it as a word
to them right now to remind themof your faithfulness, your
goodness and the unique callthat you have on their life, and
that this would propel themforward in faith, to walk out
what you've called them to, lord, whatever the cost.
I pray that those words haththou no scar would just be
(48:34):
emblazoned in their mind andthey would remember, lord, that
you gave everything and becauseof that we get to give
everything.
Lord, we love you and we thankyou in Jesus' name, amen, amen.
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