May 1, 2025 • 38 mins
Have you ever walked away from a Sunday service feeling like you didn't get much out of the sermon? You're not alone. In this revealing conversation, Justin and Tim tackle the often-overlooked art of sermon engagement—exploring why many Christians struggle to connect with teaching and how to transform this vital spiritual practice.
The discussion begins with a provocative question: how do thoughtful, well-read Christians continue to benefit from basic sermons, particularly predictable ones like those delivered on Easter Sunday? Justin responds by challenging the consumer mindset many bring to church, where we expect pastors to "do the work for us" rather than taking responsibility for our own spiritual nourishment.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Guys, welcome back to Navigate.
Hi, Justin.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hey buddy.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Did you notice?
I cleaned up in here.
It looks beautiful.
I already told you this, but Ijust wanted to get it on the
record.
You have a gift, okay.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I want people to know that this our little podcast
studio.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
This thing was trashed.
We're slowly looking more andmore like a man cave.
We kept having pastors on.
We have a third person come inhere and they're like is this
where you guys live Sometimes?
Have drank water bottles andCelsius cans all over the place.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I haven't even had a Celsius in like six months too.
That stuff, I just call itanger water.
I'm telling you I can have alot of energy drinks and I'm
fine.
I drink that stuff.
I'm immediately pissed off.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
But it's still water, so it makes you feel good.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I mean, it's not water, it's not.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
It actually gives me headaches.
It's like a white claw, withoutthe fun it's poison.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
It's like would you like to have a Red Bull three
times?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, but one drink, but it's water, it hydrates.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Anyway, this week's sponsor, Celsius Nut.
Oh my gosh, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Everybody's drinking that poison.
Listen, drink.
God made water.
He made like the perfect drinkfor you.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
And we're over here poisoning it yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Sometimes people have literally branded it liquid
death.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Take this that is a brand actually.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
No, that was my point .
It's like we're like we can doit better.
We'll kill you with it.
I don't even know.
I think it's just like uh,isn't that just flavored water?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
or something.
Anyway, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I mean, I get it after the Flint Michigan stuff
all bets are off.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
People like it poison us with.
We did an episode a long timeago of Easter, yes, but it got
me thinking how, just in thewhole, in the general sense of a
Sunday morning sermon, how doyou get the best out of that?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
As a like, as a Christian how do I not as a?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
patron of church, you know, every Sunday, how do you
get the best?
Because, like you, I wasthinking of you a lot, actually,
because I'm like you.
You're a smart dude, you read alot and you talk like a book
half the time.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So how do you?
You help translate me.
Tim Like do you get things?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
out of the sermon, still Like, are you there?
And you're like, oh yeah,that's a savage question.
Not necessarily our pastor here, but just in general.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, it's probably appropriate to answer it in all
kinds of ways.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I am generally thinking differently when I
listen to sermons than maybe theaverage bear.
Do you have to turn somethingoff in your head to be able to
like?
No, let me come down to yourlevel.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, what I have to turn off is all the other things
that I have going on that Iwant to check on.
Okay, so as a, as a pastor, mythought is hey, how's, how's my
staff doing in kids ministry?
Are they all set up?
Do they have all the volunteersthat they need?
Are that they need?
Are there any weirdos wanderingaround the church that I need
to go talk to make sure they'redoing?
Okay?
I know I saw so-and-so.
(03:07):
Oh man, they lost their doglast week or something.
I better go pray for them realquick if I have a second.
I feel like there's a millionthings going on in my head about
the congregation and otherthings that don't pertain to the
message.
Necessarily and, tim, I knowyou probably have a lot of that
going on as well You'reresponsible for making sure
everything goes off without ahitch here and everything is set
(03:27):
up.
Mine's not as cool, all right,hey, somebody spilled coffee in
the kitchen.
I call it.
You're the ministry facilitatorhere.
Okay, nothing goes off unlessyou're getting it done, but yeah
.
So the first barrier for me,tim, is really just trying to
focus on the reality that thereis a war, for there's a real war
(03:51):
over distraction going on, andI think I've said this before,
but, being in ministry, it'snever been harder for me to read
my Bible, to pray or practicebasic spiritual disciplines than
when I actually became somebodywho was doing the ministry not
participating, not justreceiving from it.
It became harder.
Oh man, so much harder.
(04:12):
Yeah, like I'm telling you mostpeople who listen to the
podcast.
I worked in kitchens for 10years.
I did like executive chef stuffand, dude, I would just be in
my Bible nonstop, listening tosermons nonstop.
I'm not listening to any music.
That is not worship, it's allworship.
All the time I'm going to be inmy commentaries and I'm
(04:33):
studying and I'm doing all thisstuff.
And then, once you become like,oh no, this is my full-time
world now, you tend to thinkbecause I'm in this world and
it's just the air I breathe nowthat I don't have to work at it,
or like spend as much time andit's actually the opposite.
Um, you can become a fat personin a gym really fast.
(04:55):
You can be the personal trainerwho is so good at telling
people, telling other people howthey're supposed to, you know,
do this particular form or liftthis way, or so so clear on the
information that you're theperson that begins to not apply
it yourself in your own life and, dude, it's a dangerous place
(05:15):
to be and I think because we canget so used to just being in
the middle of what's going onand this is the world that I'm
in that we can quickly stopactually doing the things that
God has called us to do.
I mean, this is why Paul ispretty clear when he's like man.
When I do this, then I check myown heart to make sure that I'm
(05:35):
not disqualified from the raceafter spending time sharing with
you guys, because I can be sofocused on making sure you guys
get there that I can lose trackin my own heart and miss where
I'm going.
I mean, and this is the problemin the church at Ephesus, right,
it's like great, you guys aresuper religious.
Your church is fire yourcoffee's hot.
Okay, your volunteer teams arestacked, you got 90% group
(06:00):
attendance.
It's insane.
And then, and the reality is,is man, we, we kind of lost it?
Yeah, we, we, we lost the?
You know, people say the firstlove, right, which is the
language there?
But ultimately it means this,the starting point, which is
ironically what you just said,tim, which is the gospel, which
is supposed to be kind of thecentral theme of Easter, like
(06:21):
what is the actual significanceof the resurrection.
And we're over here, like youknow, it's really hard to enjoy
this sermon.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I think that's why I have a problem with Easter man.
So Easter is a busy, busy week,dude.
And then we throw in four hoursof prayer, mandatory prayer,
right, which is great, but in myhead I'm like I have 30,000
things.
I feel like I have to get doneand I'm sitting here trying to
focus in on the devotion fromthe pastor, on praying with
somebody else, on worship.
I'm like I can't, I don't havetime for this.
(06:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah, and I think there is a trick to silencing
your mind.
Yeah, you know what I mean, andI say this frequently I can't
remember the first person whosaid it to me but that God
speaks in the discipline ofsilence.
He really does.
Yeah, and if you haven'tlearned to like actually stop
(07:11):
and focus and like begin toreally lean into what God has
called you to do and what he'strying to teach you and show you
, then you'll be the person whocontinues to walk by those
things all the time and notactually get to hear the things
that he wants to show you.
I'm going to read for us realquick, psalm 19, and I think
(07:33):
I've read it on here before, butit's a really important verse
for me, or portion of the text.
It's 7 through 11.
The law of the Lord is perfect,restoring the soul.
It's 7 through 11.
(08:05):
Altogether, they are moredesirable than gold.
Yes, then, much fine gold,sweeter also than honey and
dripping of the honeycomb more.
But, moreover, by them yourservant is warned and in keeping
them there's great reward.
Like this, I hate this, like,in a sense, tim, cause it's this
reminder that like, uh, dude,everything that you're being
taught, what's coming from thisword.
What's happening in this momentis full of the spirit, full of
(08:26):
everything that you need.
This is nutritious, this isdelicious, this is all the stuff
that you should be consuming,and yet our hearts can grow
distant, you know, and we candrift from the things that I
know, this is good for me andwhat I need, but, if I'm being
honest, it is like it's notnecessarily what I'm interested
in or wanting to focus on.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Well, that's the hard part with the sermon I guess
was trying to get at too is likeI could guess what the Easter
sermons are going to be everyyear.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
You know that's not.
That's pretty easy to doBecause they're all generic in
my mind.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
I mean, and that's the thing like is the gospel
message generic?
And I think to myself howfrustrated would I be if I went
to a church on Easter and theydidn't preach the gospel Right?
I would be like what is wrongwith these?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
people.
Well, I totally understand that.
You know what I mean.
I do, I really do.
But I also think there's anaspect to something that if you
have people who are normallycoming to the church, what are
they getting fed?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I think the gospel is the power of God unto salvation
, and if you have a chance tosit down and you know a bunch of
people are coming who don'tactually know the gospel and you
don't share the very thing thatis the central theme of
everything life and death forthem, or whether they go to hell
or not, I think you missed itbut I think— Agreed.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
But what about the ones who already have the
salvation?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Oh, I think it's like what Peter said, it is no
problem at all for me to liketell you this again and again so
that you don't forget thefullness of what he's trying to
communicate to you.
I think the gospel is prettycentral to most of what's going
on.
I will say this when we look inscripture, especially in the
New Testament, there tends to betwo words that are used for
(10:13):
this proclamation of the word.
This word, kerygma, is a wordthat means like this is an
evangelistic proclamation, aheralding of the gospel itself.
And then the other word thattends to get used in this
sharing the word, is the worddidyka, which ultimately just
means the teaching that'sassociated with the gospel.
I think a lot of people want tojust focus on the kerygma,
(10:34):
which is every message is agospel message, which is good,
and there's something about that.
That's right.
But if you never get into thedidyka, which is like, okay,
then teach me.
Then how does this inform thelife that I'm supposed to live
and where I'm supposed to go andwhat I'm supposed to do
connected to the gospel?
If you never get there, youmiss out too.
The goal is to combine at somelevel.
(10:54):
I want gospel-centered teachingwith clear didactic application
to be added to what I'm tryingto do in my Christian life.
But if somebody doesn't knowthe gospel at all or hasn't
received that yet, then it wouldbe foolish to go to the
teaching.
And a lot of churches have diedthat way where it's like they
(11:19):
started preaching the gospel,then eventually they assume the
gospel and just do teaching andthen eventually they abandon the
gospel for moralism and theneverybody and then the church
dies or becomes a cult.
Yeah, you know.
So if you're asking me, there'skind of two questions here.
All right, one is Easterspecifically, one is sermons in
general.
Yeah, okay, easter inparticular.
(11:41):
I prepare my heart by isprimarily sitting in, resting in
and getting my heart right inlight of what the day represents
for me, and then helping sharewith my children how that should
impact the way that we thinkabout these days, because we get
(12:02):
pumped for all kinds of things,we get excited for stupid stuff
, but days that actually have todo with our own eternity in
life and death, and whether mymarriage makes it or not, or
whether my kids survive or not,or whatever, we'll trivialize
those and make them not a bigdeal.
And if Easter isn't bigger thanyour church, for you, the time
(12:27):
you spend at church is going tosuck and not going to be
relevant.
If it is bigger than church,then you'll understand that I'm
bringing something to churchthat day with me.
I'm not expecting them to giveme something.
Does that make sense?
So I'm preparing in light ofwhat Easter actually represents.
So even if I went to a churchthat the message was subpar and
(12:48):
I didn't feel like the worshipwas great and it was, you know,
kind of a dusty service, I'mstill going to be like dude.
There's no where I'd rather bethan with the community of
saints on Easter Sundaycelebrating the resurrection of
our Lord.
That is a, I mean, that's justa.
That's an in my bones thingthat we should have.
And I feel like that's somethingfor you that you should almost
enjoy more, because you havethis liturgical, more, let's say
(13:09):
, reverent side to you, tim,that wants to honor the church
calendar and wants to honor someof the church fathers and what
they did.
And Easter is one of thosethings that ironically, a lot of
Christians struggle with, wholike liturgy, and I think it's
funny.
It's like, well, the one thingor two things that the let's say
, the church that is lessliturgical, will actually go out
of their way to make sure thatwe do tends to be the things
(13:31):
that we ignore the most, whichtells me that people who love
liturgy actually don't loveliturgy that much, and we get
bored of it pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
We get bored of it pretty quick.
I just find the whole setup ofa sermon these days any church
man you know three songs in thebeginning, 45 minutes of
somebody talking and then songgoodbye.
Where did the 45 minutestalking come from?
I guess Do you know.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Okay, that's another great question.
Yeah, so the uh early on, veryearly on, like act six, is one
of the best places to go, wherethey have all this different
stuff happening.
And you got uh problems withthe Jewish women and the
Hellenistic Jews and there'ssome like racism early on in the
church and they're trying tofigure out what do we do?
And the apostles basically saywe have to dedicate ourselves to
(14:18):
prayer and to the ministry ofthe word.
Like this is what we aresupposed to be doing is teaching
and praying.
And it says every day they werededicating themselves to the
apostles' teaching.
And then you have simple stufflike what Paul's writing to
Timothy, where he's saying givededication to your teaching, to
public reading of Scripture.
It's supposed to be an ongoingcentral theme in churches to
(14:43):
proclaim and teach these things.
This is why the qualificationfor being an elder is you.
You got to be able to teach theword.
Why?
Because what's the centralthing that's supposed to be
happening in the church is theteaching of the word of God.
That would help developpeople's lifestyle into
something that would honorChrist further the gospel, build
the kingdom, et cetera, etcetera, et cetera.
So the proclamation of the wordis an incredibly important
(15:07):
thing.
The Bible says that the powerof life and death is in the
tongue, that the power of thegospel.
You know what I mean.
It really is the proclaimedmessage itself, and the teaching
that we read all throughout theBible is ultimately sermons
that Paul is giving to people tohelp them learn, in light of
(15:28):
what the gospel is, how they'resupposed to live.
So it's pretty unavoidable.
The worship is prescribed inseveral places, but is replete
throughout scripture.
Obviously, we have hymns andsongs that people are singing.
The Psalter itself is full ofmusic that was specific to
different events the Day ofAtonement, the Day of Ascent,
(15:49):
you know.
Or this is a lament that wesang, you know.
Or this particular song we sangduring the Feast of Booth.
It was the songs that werespecific and connected to the
moments that they were trying tocelebrate, and yeah.
So if you're asking why do westructure services, the way that
we structure services, there'sreally three things that most
(16:13):
people will say are the marks ofa church, which is the giving
of the sacraments or ordinances,the faithful proclamation of
the word and exercising churchdiscipline.
Those are the three.
So am I heralding thefaithfulness of the word?
Am I actually doing the twothings God told me to do if
you're a Protestant anywayswhich is the Lord's Supper and
(16:34):
baptism.
And then am I defending thosethings, the holiness of God, the
word itself by kicking peopleout that are rebellious and
trying to bring destruction, orbringing people back in who are
in error, who need to be lovedand brought through a process?
But yeah, those things are likedeeply ingrained in scripture
(16:55):
and absolutely unavoidable.
If you're reading the NewTestament and wondering how,
then, should our services looklike Community getting together
in the word, prayer, worship,fellowship, teaching, and then
that applying and moving intoour lives but I thought maybe
what might be a good idea, tim,in light of this, is to give
people some thoughts about howto maybe get the most out of a
(17:19):
sermon, tim.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
McCoy yeah, well, that's what I was trying to get
at, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Tim McCoy.
Okay, so what I would want tocommunicate to people is that,
honestly, you can get things outof a song that will wreck your
heart for God.
You can get things out of apiece of artwork.
You can get things out ofsomething a child says.
I think it's really importantthat we start with ourself, and
(17:46):
if you are dull to the gospeland you're mad at somebody else
for not getting there for you,that's just selfishness and
laziness presenting itself in anargument against faithfulness.
It's somebody else's fault thatI'm not getting to do or feel
the way that they're supposed tomake me feel on this particular
(18:06):
day.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
That's just horse crap and then it's just a
terrible sermon.
I'm never coming back.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Well, and I would even say that to be able to
understand if it really was aterrible sermon, your heart has
to be in the right place.
Then you would know.
But if your heart's in thewrong place, you might hear a
totally crap sermon and thinkit's great, that was the best
thing ever, right?
So you want to prepare for amessage by first preparing your
(18:31):
soul.
Like every Sunday and I broughtthis up before every Sunday
before I am doing ministry,before I'm listening to this
sermon or whatever, I'm prayingmyself hot.
I am spending time in prayer towake my heart up, because when
I walk in I'm not there, justflat out.
I'm tired, I got stuff I'mthinking about with kids or this
(18:52):
going on or that going on, andif I don't spend time in prayer
getting my heart to a placewhere I really am expectant and
wanting to see God move andready to listen for what he's
wanting to do, nothing goodhappens.
I prepare then to study.
So if you see me in a sermon,you're usually going to see me
with my Bible, you're going tosee me with a notebook, you're
going to see me with a pen, andsome of you guys might see me
(19:14):
with my phone too, because Ihave Logos on my phone and so
I'm going to sit there.
I'm going to open up my Bibleto the passage he's going to be
in.
If I know what it is early, I'mprobably going to read through
it early.
If I don't know where he'sgoing, I'm going to be ready to
go there when he tells me toopen the thing.
I'm going to write notes with myown hand as often as I can,
because I think there's a directconnection between what I'm
(19:34):
putting down with my own handand what I'm getting into my
heart, and I think a lot ofpeople are used to typing and
putting stuff in notes.
I love stuff in notes.
I'll do that if I don't have apen and paper, but there is a
real connection, like aphysiological connection,
between what you're writing downwith your hand and what you're
actually retaining andconnecting with.
And so I have a pen that Ireally love, I have a notebook
(19:55):
that I really love, and I got aBible that I really love,
because I want to actually getthe most out of those things too
.
So, like, if I'm saying this islike a finer things moment,
yeah, great, if you're going toget things that you really enjoy
and want to use and enjoy using, do it when it helps stir your
heart for a love for God and adesire to study.
So pen paper Bible.
(20:18):
If you're a guy who likes likeme, who likes to study, pop open
, log off on your phone, justhave notifications and stuff
silent so you're not havingdistractions come up while
you're trying to study which youcan do.
Obviously, you've got to besomewhat disciplined, but I like
doing that, and then I prepareto spend more time in the sermon
(20:39):
after it's preached, like Iwill probably listen to the same
sermon again.
I'll go back through and thinkabout it.
I'll hear stuff that I didn'thear before.
I want to pick up furtherinsights, and then I want to
start asking questions.
What, ultimately, is the fullthing that he was trying to
communicate in this passage?
What were the applications thatI'm hearing but I'm not
(21:02):
uniquely applying to my own life?
What am I missing Life?
What am I missing?
And then I should be takingthis thing home and I should be
looking at other texts that it'sconnecting with.
What does this text say aboutthis?
He quoted these three differenttexts.
Okay, I'm going to go to those.
I'm going to read through thosedifferent things.
(21:28):
If you're a nerd like me, I'mgoing to be asking how does the
original language in this texttake me a little bit deeper into
it?
Are there specific cultural,you know, uh relevancies here
that shed further light onwhat's being communicated?
Um, and then I like to shift itand this I'm like.
I feel like I'm taking you guysthrough a weird world, but this
is how my head works, okay, andthen I take it to okay, if I
had to teach this to someone,how would I do it?
(21:48):
Wow, and then I'm going tostart writing down.
This is probably the way Iwould phrase this.
This is a text that I wouldconnect it with, because I like
this one a little bit better.
Or I think, man, this verse isso good.
How many of us in a message arelike oh, I have a quote that
goes along with that.
That's really great.
I mean it happens to me all thetime and I sit there, like you
(22:09):
know, wanted to raise my hand,which is not appropriate outside
of worship.
You know, and I'll write downsome quotes, I'll have some
different stuff and the reason Istarted doing this, Tim,
actually originally was becauseI listened to this David Platt
secret church thing back in theday.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
David Platt, dude.
Yeah, and I could say somethings about the driest sermon.
The driest guy to talk aboutthe day David Platt, dude.
Yeah, and I can say some thingsabout the driest sermon.
The driest guy to talk aboutthe Bible is David Platt.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
And there's a lot that's like gone over the edge
there.
There's a whole thing.
But here's what I would say.
He did a four-hour teaching onthis and what he would do is he
would do this massive teaching.
But there were all these peopleand he talked in this message
about going to these likecandlelit meetings, underground
in these war-torn lands orwhatever, where it was illegal
(22:54):
to teach the word of God.
And these men were not goingfor the purpose of hearing a
message.
They were going for the purposeof absorbing everything that
they possibly could so that theycould go back to their own
congregations and teach thepeople that they were talking to
.
So the goal is not man learneda lot today, really good.
(23:16):
The goal is how am I actuallytaking what was shared, what was
taught, this information, thestructure, what's going on here,
and then thinking about how Iwould uniquely apply it to the
people that I'm speaking to orthe people that are in my own
life?
In an instant, how could I takethis and, in a five-minute devo
(23:36):
, give this to my kids in aunique way that I would want
them to understand or to take itwith me?
And so, if you are kind ofwalking through this process of
preparing my soul, preparing tostudy.
I'm spending more time planningon listening to this again and
again.
I want to think through theright questions to ask to help
(23:57):
stir stuff, and then I'm takingit, working through other texts
that correspond with it,thinking about cultural
relevance, walking potentiallythrough the original language.
If you got logos or somethingyou want to pop into and then
making it your own message, it'spretty hard not to get
something out of it.
And Howard Hendricks said theBible doesn't yield its fruit to
(24:17):
the lazy.
And I would say the same thingabout sermons.
Sometimes somebody is so giftedthat they, just when they speak
, man, the meat just falls offthe bone and you're like, oh,
this was so great.
Here's the to have all the workdone for you.
Maybe Is it good to do that allthe time?
(24:42):
Is it actually teaching you atthat point?
Maybe not.
And Tim used to get mad at mein the kitchen when we worked
together, cause if I teach you askill, you know like I remember
one time I made you, I taughtyou how to make lemon, lemon,
roses and orange roses.
And then it was like an Easterbrunch or something we were
doing ironically, and I was likeI need a hundred of these.
And you're like I wish younever taught me this.
(25:05):
And I think that's how it'ssupposed to feel.
If you're getting the most outof a message is ah, dang it.
I wish I didn't hear thissermon this week.
Now I know I need to do this youknow because it's the
conviction and what you actuallylearned, then I will begin to
see how I can apply it in mylife.
But if you go in as a consumerand not as a student I guess is
(25:27):
the best way to say this thenyou're going to miss what God's
actually trying to teach you.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
That's interesting because I think it's always the
perception of the pastor's jobis to do that for me, like you
were saying.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I think the goal of the pastor is to equip the
saints for the work of ministry.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
But when you go in for a sermon, it's like I want
to hear something that makestotal sense to my soul, right,
yeah, that I could go home andtake it with me, yeah, Let me
give you a picture.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Tim Moses would go up the mountain and get revelation
for the people and come backdown and tell them.
This is what God has said Inthe New Testament Jesus
descended from heaven.
He came down the mountainhimself to meet with us.
He gives his own spirit to usso that we can commune with him,
(26:15):
so that we can kneel before thethrone you know, the throne of
grace to find mercy and help inour time of need.
And I think sometimes we'restill looking for a Moses.
We want somebody to go get themessage for us.
You talk to God, you get allthe things that we, you just
tell us and we'll do that andwe'll let you know.
Whether we like it or not, andif you're gone too long, it's
(26:36):
your fault that we made thegolden calf and partied because
you're supposed to help me, andthat kind of mentality is.
It's totally wicked.
The goal is that the gospel,the kerygma, would transform our
hearts by the spirit, so thatwe would become a new creation
that has new appetites, thatwants to walk in a way that
(26:57):
would honor God and grow in ourfaith.
That has new appetites, thatwants to walk in a way that
would honor God and grow in ourfaith.
The didika is the teaching thatpastors and elders and
shepherds, overseers, bishopsall the same word, same thing.
They're supposed to be able toprovide for us so that we would
begin to live our life in adifferent way, but also teach
these truths to other people.
This is the whole picture.
(27:19):
I think it's 2 Timothy 2, right.
Teach the things that you haveheard and seen in me in the
presence of faithful witnesses.
Teach these things to otherfaithful men who can teach
others also.
There's four generations ofteaching in that what you saw me
do and what I taught you to do.
I want you to teach others alsoso that they can teach other
people as well.
I want you to teach others alsoso that they can teach other
(27:40):
people as well.
It's never supposed to be.
I went in, I got a great sermonand it died with me.
In fact, I would say if youheard a sermon this week and
that sermon died with you, youfailed.
(28:00):
The goal is to take whatever itis that God showed you through
that process of your ownpreparation, your readiness and
then actually enjoying the meal.
It's a lot like going to afancy restaurant, tim, and not
enjoying what they did at thatrestaurant Cause you just don't
care.
You know somebody who's like Ispent 150 bucks you know what I
mean On this meal to get you areally nice day.
Oh man, you know you've neverhad foie gras on top of your
steak like that, and it'sdelicious.
(28:20):
I want you to try it.
I think it's really good.
But then somebody's like what isthis disgusting gelatinous
thing on top of my steak?
I don't want get me Taco Bell.
You know what I mean, and Ithink a lot of times pastors can
feel like that.
Like man, I put all these hoursin, I worked really hard.
I wanted to bring you thismessage, but preaching to a cold
(28:43):
heart man is so hard and I gotto tell you.
I experienced this recently,tim, because I had to teach a
bunch of high schoolers and Ijust wanted to die afterwards.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I think I brought this up.
Yeah, you did what they did Ibrought this up with AJ.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, and it's like there's such a difference
between somebody who comes ready, who wants to hear, who wants
to learn, who wants to grow andis there to like get after it,
and somebody who is forced to bethere that doesn't want to be
there.
And, unfortunately, easter isnot a time to cast your pearls
before swine.
Easter is the time to try towake the dead.
When I come as somebody who was, you know, woken, or somebody
(29:20):
who has woken up from the dead,I get to come as somebody who is
a living representation of whatGod has actually done.
And I would say this If you area Christian we've used the term
on the podcast a lot ofhierophany You're a place where
heaven is touched earth.
You, christian, are a hierophany.
(29:40):
You are a place where heavenhas collided with earth and
created a moment in time inhistory that forever represents
the goodness and mercy andevidence of God.
And I would say you should walkaround like that.
You should live that way.
I am a representation of whatGod can do when his mercy and
(30:02):
grace and presence touchessomething that was dead.
I am now alive and let me tellyou what my God has done and
these hierophanies throughoutscripture, tim, I think you know
are these places where peoplewould build altars?
Right, it was like God touchedthe ground here.
He spoke to, to me here, so I'mgoing to build this altar.
That's supposed to be us.
We're supposed to be living,walking, breathing hierophanies.
(30:25):
I am a place where heaventouched earth and now I'm an
expression of god's goodness andmercy to anybody who would walk
by and see me.
Um, and when we are receivingthe word of God, hopefully, we
are being constantly remindedthat I am a conduit for heaven
here and I need to receive thisstuff and do something with it
(30:46):
that actually matters, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, but there's been moments where I mean
there's sermons I think I'velistened to 10 years ago that I
still listen to on a regularbasis.
Yeah, You're right.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
So I think I'm always trying to chase that next one,
you know.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I think sometimes God does reach down and uniquely
speak to you without you havingto put work in.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
You know what I mean.
But it's more like him, justlike grabbing you by the
shoulder and like look at me,yes, daddy, you know what I mean
.
Like, okay, I'm listening now.
Sometimes there is somethingthat so speaks to your heart,
dude, that you're almost undonein the moment, and it's glorious
.
You cannot do something withthat, yeah.
But I mean, I think if we'rewanting that every week, we're
(31:30):
not wanting obedience or to walkout what God has called us to
do, we're just looking for anexperience because it was so
awesome.
And do I want heaven?
Yes, do I want to be in thepresence of God all the time?
Heck, yeah, obviously I do.
That's why Jesus was runningaway to spend time with his
father all the time.
But ultimately, the work thatwe got to get done is part of
(31:52):
this process of identifying withChrist and knowing him.
Why?
Because he put on flesh.
He came down first and walkedthis out and showed us how to do
that and has given us theopportunity to do it with him,
so that we may know who he is,identify with his purposes, goal
and will and ultimately bevictorious with him through, you
(32:12):
know, cooperating with his will.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
So you think every sermon is something for you to
get something out of.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, yeah, I do, I do, even if what you got out of
the sermon was that guy'steaching was not as good as it
could have been.
Here's the three differentareas that I think I would have
spent more time if I was him.
Here's an area that I think hemissed.
I'm going to go back, I'm goingto rework this myself and
really try to solidify whatshould be there.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
That's such a weird thought too, cause it's like
this is the pastor, this is hisjob.
Who am I to question that?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Let me, let me walk you back, Tim, do you?
You have a job, but you alsohave a calling.
Sure, do you fall short in yourcalling?
Yeah, okay, um, and I would say, if I looked at most Christians
, I would say, at some levelyou've probably fallen short in
the calling that God has put onyour life.
But we think about it like youjust said this is your job, do
(33:06):
the job, and we don't think ofit as, oh no, actually this is
his life coming out of him rightnow.
How dare he have an area of hislife coming out of him that I
don't think is valuable ormeaningful enough in this moment
?
Now, for the record, if I amdoing a podcast where I'm
uniquely talking to pastors, Iam going to turn this on its
(33:27):
head and I'm going to smash backthe other direction really hard
, okay, but for the normalperson who is listening to this
podcast, who is, let's say,somebody who is attending church
, who loves the Lord, or isfiguring out their Christian
walk, navigating their Christianlife, oh, you said it, yep, I
did.
I'm going to do what the HolySpirit always does, which is
(33:48):
focus on you, not somebody else.
And I would say a pastor is notdoing a job, he's trying to
fulfill his calling, in the sameway that you're not just
walking around doing a job,you're trying to live out your
life as a Christian.
You're calling and sometimesyou crush it and sometimes you
fall short.
But we always want to fallforward.
And the worst thing that canhappen is when you treat a
(34:12):
pastor like absolute crapbecause he fell short in a
particular area, when you knowgood and well that you fall
short in your own life all thetime and somebody who does week
in and week out, bring the wordand try to love people and pour
into them and care for them.
When he does a bad job, haspeople leaving the church or
decide I'm just not being fedhere.
(34:33):
It's kind of jacked up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just think there should be alittle bit more mercy, a little
more grace in some of thoseareas.
Now, if you've been at a churchfor years and it's just stale
and you're like dude, Iliterally I'm not growing here,
okay, well, maybe that's Godtelling you, hey, I have
something else for you.
I want you to move from thispastor to this pastor.
That's not a bad thing, but Iwouldn't blame the pastor for
(34:53):
that or I wouldn't say it washis fault, say it was his fault.
I would say that's God changingsomething in me and I'm needing
to follow where he's telling meto go, not because the, the, uh
, you know the, the graphics atthis particular place are so
much better and I just theworship is so much better
because they have just betterquality there.
Well, yeah, I want those things, but ultimately that's not
what's going to grow me in myfaith, right?
(35:14):
Um, those are amenities thatare great when we have them, um,
but ultimately it could havethe potential to actually make
you worse at growing in yourfaith, because you'll rely on
the things that are done for youas opposed to having to stir
your heart and get to a placewhere you can participate and
have fellowship with Christwithout them.
(35:35):
And I think it was Francis Chanwho said this.
He said whatever you use to getpeople there are the things
you'll have to keep to get themto stay.
So, if it's like, if yourchurch is only bringing people
in because you know CarrieUnderwood is singing on a Sunday
morning and the graphics andlighting and everything are
(35:55):
absolutely perfect.
You're going to have to keepall those things, because the
gospel is not the reasonnecessarily that they're there
Now.
Our hope would be that, dude,I'm here for the gospel, but
these things are awesome andthey help elevate the experience
and stir my heart to put focuson Christ.
All of that Great.
I believe that.
But if you have a bad Sunday orthe message isn't great and you
(36:18):
feel like I'm not being fed orit might be you, bro, it might
be that I was relying too muchon everybody else to do the work
for me to get something fromGod and the second Moses stops
coming down the mountain.
I stop being an Israelite, youknow, and I would just encourage
you.
Jesus came down the mountainnot so that other people could
do it for you.
They can encourage you and helpyou, but your relationship with
(36:39):
Jesus is your own relationshipwith Jesus, and Jesus doesn't
have secondary friends orgrandkids, as some people like
to say.
It's you and him, and you'regoing to have to work that out
and get to a place where you cangrow personally.
So Easter Sunday is an importantday, tim, and I realized that
some days you've got to slug itout and some days it feels like
(37:00):
spiritual warfare and it's likeman.
I didn't get anything out ofthat, but I know this is where
I'm supposed to be and I dideverything that I could to do
the right thing, even though myheart wasn't totally where I
want it to be.
I think that I think God honorsthat more than everything was
exactly the way that I wanted.
Therefore, I could worship.
I mean, that seems that seemsshallow to me.
(37:22):
Somewhere in between is what wewant.
I used everything that I hadhere to elevate the experience
that I could so that I couldgive the fullness of my heart to
Christ.
That's what I'm trying to do,but it shouldn't stop there.
It should end up with, and so Itook everything that I received
from the Lord and I brought itto everybody I could.
That's how you actually closethe gap, and if you go halfway,
(37:44):
I actually think God will stopfeeding you personally.
Nice, so take that for whatit's worth, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Cool.
Thanks, man Appreciate this.
Talk man Awesome, All right.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, kind of random and all over the place, but
hopefully some good things thatyou guys can take out of this
and apply.
Guys, welcome back to Navigate.
Hi, Justin.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hey buddy.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Did you notice?
I cleaned up in here.
It looks beautiful.
I already told you this, but Ijust wanted to get it on the
record.
You have a gift, okay.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I want people to know that this our little podcast
studio.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
This thing was trashed.
We're slowly looking more andmore like a man cave.
We kept having pastors on.
We have a third person come inhere and they're like is this
where you guys live Sometimes?
Have drank water bottles andCelsius cans all over the place.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I haven't even had a Celsius in like six months too.
That stuff, I just call itanger water.
I'm telling you I can have alot of energy drinks and I'm
fine.
I drink that stuff.
I'm immediately pissed off.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
But it's still water, so it makes you feel good.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I mean, it's not water, it's not.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
It actually gives me headaches.
It's like a white claw, withoutthe fun it's poison.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
It's like would you like to have a Red Bull three
times?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, but one drink, but it's water, it hydrates.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Anyway, this week's sponsor, Celsius Nut.
Oh my gosh, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Everybody's drinking that poison.
Listen, drink.
God made water.
He made like the perfect drinkfor you.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
And we're over here poisoning it yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Sometimes people have literally branded it liquid
death.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Take this that is a brand actually.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
No, that was my point .
It's like we're like we can doit better.
We'll kill you with it.
I don't even know.
I think it's just like uh,isn't that just flavored water?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
or something.
Anyway, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I mean, I get it after the Flint Michigan stuff
all bets are off.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
People like it poison us with.
We did an episode a long timeago of Easter, yes, but it got
me thinking how, just in thewhole, in the general sense of a
Sunday morning sermon, how doyou get the best out of that?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
As a like, as a Christian how do I not as a?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
patron of church, you know, every Sunday, how do you
get the best?
Because, like you, I wasthinking of you a lot, actually,
because I'm like you.
You're a smart dude, you read alot and you talk like a book
half the time.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So how do you?
You help translate me.
Tim Like do you get things?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
out of the sermon, still Like, are you there?
And you're like, oh yeah,that's a savage question.
Not necessarily our pastor here, but just in general.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, it's probably appropriate to answer it in all
kinds of ways.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I am generally thinking differently when I
listen to sermons than maybe theaverage bear.
Do you have to turn somethingoff in your head to be able to
like?
No, let me come down to yourlevel.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, what I have to turn off is all the other things
that I have going on that Iwant to check on.
Okay, so as a, as a pastor, mythought is hey, how's, how's my
staff doing in kids ministry?
Are they all set up?
Do they have all the volunteersthat they need?
Are that they need?
Are there any weirdos wanderingaround the church that I need
to go talk to make sure they'redoing?
Okay?
I know I saw so-and-so.
(03:07):
Oh man, they lost their doglast week or something.
I better go pray for them realquick if I have a second.
I feel like there's a millionthings going on in my head about
the congregation and otherthings that don't pertain to the
message.
Necessarily and, tim, I knowyou probably have a lot of that
going on as well You'reresponsible for making sure
everything goes off without ahitch here and everything is set
(03:27):
up.
Mine's not as cool, all right,hey, somebody spilled coffee in
the kitchen.
I call it.
You're the ministry facilitatorhere.
Okay, nothing goes off unlessyou're getting it done, but yeah
.
So the first barrier for me,tim, is really just trying to
focus on the reality that thereis a war, for there's a real war
(03:51):
over distraction going on, andI think I've said this before,
but, being in ministry, it'snever been harder for me to read
my Bible, to pray or practicebasic spiritual disciplines than
when I actually became somebodywho was doing the ministry not
participating, not justreceiving from it.
It became harder.
Oh man, so much harder.
(04:12):
Yeah, like I'm telling you mostpeople who listen to the
podcast.
I worked in kitchens for 10years.
I did like executive chef stuffand, dude, I would just be in
my Bible nonstop, listening tosermons nonstop.
I'm not listening to any music.
That is not worship, it's allworship.
All the time I'm going to be inmy commentaries and I'm
(04:33):
studying and I'm doing all thisstuff.
And then, once you become like,oh no, this is my full-time
world now, you tend to thinkbecause I'm in this world and
it's just the air I breathe nowthat I don't have to work at it,
or like spend as much time andit's actually the opposite.
Um, you can become a fat personin a gym really fast.
(04:55):
You can be the personal trainerwho is so good at telling
people, telling other people howthey're supposed to, you know,
do this particular form or liftthis way, or so so clear on the
information that you're theperson that begins to not apply
it yourself in your own life and, dude, it's a dangerous place
(05:15):
to be and I think because we canget so used to just being in
the middle of what's going onand this is the world that I'm
in that we can quickly stopactually doing the things that
God has called us to do.
I mean, this is why Paul ispretty clear when he's like man.
When I do this, then I check myown heart to make sure that I'm
(05:35):
not disqualified from the raceafter spending time sharing with
you guys, because I can be sofocused on making sure you guys
get there that I can lose trackin my own heart and miss where
I'm going.
I mean, and this is the problemin the church at Ephesus, right,
it's like great, you guys aresuper religious.
Your church is fire yourcoffee's hot.
Okay, your volunteer teams arestacked, you got 90% group
(06:00):
attendance.
It's insane.
And then, and the reality is,is man, we, we kind of lost it?
Yeah, we, we, we lost the?
You know, people say the firstlove, right, which is the
language there?
But ultimately it means this,the starting point, which is
ironically what you just said,tim, which is the gospel, which
is supposed to be kind of thecentral theme of Easter, like
(06:21):
what is the actual significanceof the resurrection.
And we're over here, like youknow, it's really hard to enjoy
this sermon.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I think that's why I have a problem with Easter man.
So Easter is a busy, busy week,dude.
And then we throw in four hoursof prayer, mandatory prayer,
right, which is great, but in myhead I'm like I have 30,000
things.
I feel like I have to get doneand I'm sitting here trying to
focus in on the devotion fromthe pastor, on praying with
somebody else, on worship.
I'm like I can't, I don't havetime for this.
(06:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah, and I think there is a trick to silencing
your mind.
Yeah, you know what I mean, andI say this frequently I can't
remember the first person whosaid it to me but that God
speaks in the discipline ofsilence.
He really does.
Yeah, and if you haven'tlearned to like actually stop
(07:11):
and focus and like begin toreally lean into what God has
called you to do and what he'strying to teach you and show you
, then you'll be the person whocontinues to walk by those
things all the time and notactually get to hear the things
that he wants to show you.
I'm going to read for us realquick, psalm 19, and I think
(07:33):
I've read it on here before, butit's a really important verse
for me, or portion of the text.
It's 7 through 11.
The law of the Lord is perfect,restoring the soul.
It's 7 through 11.
(08:05):
Altogether, they are moredesirable than gold.
Yes, then, much fine gold,sweeter also than honey and
dripping of the honeycomb more.
But, moreover, by them yourservant is warned and in keeping
them there's great reward.
Like this, I hate this, like,in a sense, tim, cause it's this
reminder that like, uh, dude,everything that you're being
taught, what's coming from thisword.
What's happening in this momentis full of the spirit, full of
(08:26):
everything that you need.
This is nutritious, this isdelicious, this is all the stuff
that you should be consuming,and yet our hearts can grow
distant, you know, and we candrift from the things that I
know, this is good for me andwhat I need, but, if I'm being
honest, it is like it's notnecessarily what I'm interested
in or wanting to focus on.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Well, that's the hard part with the sermon I guess
was trying to get at too is likeI could guess what the Easter
sermons are going to be everyyear.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
You know that's not.
That's pretty easy to doBecause they're all generic in
my mind.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
I mean, and that's the thing like is the gospel
message generic?
And I think to myself howfrustrated would I be if I went
to a church on Easter and theydidn't preach the gospel Right?
I would be like what is wrongwith these?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
people.
Well, I totally understand that.
You know what I mean.
I do, I really do.
But I also think there's anaspect to something that if you
have people who are normallycoming to the church, what are
they getting fed?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I think the gospel is the power of God unto salvation
, and if you have a chance tosit down and you know a bunch of
people are coming who don'tactually know the gospel and you
don't share the very thing thatis the central theme of
everything life and death forthem, or whether they go to hell
or not, I think you missed itbut I think— Agreed.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
But what about the ones who already have the
salvation?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Oh, I think it's like what Peter said, it is no
problem at all for me to liketell you this again and again so
that you don't forget thefullness of what he's trying to
communicate to you.
I think the gospel is prettycentral to most of what's going
on.
I will say this when we look inscripture, especially in the
New Testament, there tends to betwo words that are used for
(10:13):
this proclamation of the word.
This word, kerygma, is a wordthat means like this is an
evangelistic proclamation, aheralding of the gospel itself.
And then the other word thattends to get used in this
sharing the word, is the worddidyka, which ultimately just
means the teaching that'sassociated with the gospel.
I think a lot of people want tojust focus on the kerygma,
(10:34):
which is every message is agospel message, which is good,
and there's something about that.
That's right.
But if you never get into thedidyka, which is like, okay,
then teach me.
Then how does this inform thelife that I'm supposed to live
and where I'm supposed to go andwhat I'm supposed to do
connected to the gospel?
If you never get there, youmiss out too.
The goal is to combine at somelevel.
(10:54):
I want gospel-centered teachingwith clear didactic application
to be added to what I'm tryingto do in my Christian life.
But if somebody doesn't knowthe gospel at all or hasn't
received that yet, then it wouldbe foolish to go to the
teaching.
And a lot of churches have diedthat way where it's like they
(11:19):
started preaching the gospel,then eventually they assume the
gospel and just do teaching andthen eventually they abandon the
gospel for moralism and theneverybody and then the church
dies or becomes a cult.
Yeah, you know.
So if you're asking me, there'skind of two questions here.
All right, one is Easterspecifically, one is sermons in
general.
Yeah, okay, easter inparticular.
(11:41):
I prepare my heart by isprimarily sitting in, resting in
and getting my heart right inlight of what the day represents
for me, and then helping sharewith my children how that should
impact the way that we thinkabout these days, because we get
(12:02):
pumped for all kinds of things,we get excited for stupid stuff
, but days that actually have todo with our own eternity in
life and death, and whether mymarriage makes it or not, or
whether my kids survive or not,or whatever, we'll trivialize
those and make them not a bigdeal.
And if Easter isn't bigger thanyour church, for you, the time
(12:27):
you spend at church is going tosuck and not going to be
relevant.
If it is bigger than church,then you'll understand that I'm
bringing something to churchthat day with me.
I'm not expecting them to giveme something.
Does that make sense?
So I'm preparing in light ofwhat Easter actually represents.
So even if I went to a churchthat the message was subpar and
(12:48):
I didn't feel like the worshipwas great and it was, you know,
kind of a dusty service, I'mstill going to be like dude.
There's no where I'd rather bethan with the community of
saints on Easter Sundaycelebrating the resurrection of
our Lord.
That is a, I mean, that's justa.
That's an in my bones thingthat we should have.
And I feel like that's somethingfor you that you should almost
enjoy more, because you havethis liturgical, more, let's say
(13:09):
, reverent side to you, tim,that wants to honor the church
calendar and wants to honor someof the church fathers and what
they did.
And Easter is one of thosethings that ironically, a lot of
Christians struggle with, wholike liturgy, and I think it's
funny.
It's like, well, the one thingor two things that the let's say
, the church that is lessliturgical, will actually go out
of their way to make sure thatwe do tends to be the things
(13:31):
that we ignore the most, whichtells me that people who love
liturgy actually don't loveliturgy that much, and we get
bored of it pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
We get bored of it pretty quick.
I just find the whole setup ofa sermon these days any church
man you know three songs in thebeginning, 45 minutes of
somebody talking and then songgoodbye.
Where did the 45 minutestalking come from?
I guess Do you know.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Okay, that's another great question.
Yeah, so the uh early on, veryearly on, like act six, is one
of the best places to go, wherethey have all this different
stuff happening.
And you got uh problems withthe Jewish women and the
Hellenistic Jews and there'ssome like racism early on in the
church and they're trying tofigure out what do we do?
And the apostles basically saywe have to dedicate ourselves to
(14:18):
prayer and to the ministry ofthe word.
Like this is what we aresupposed to be doing is teaching
and praying.
And it says every day they werededicating themselves to the
apostles' teaching.
And then you have simple stufflike what Paul's writing to
Timothy, where he's saying givededication to your teaching, to
public reading of Scripture.
It's supposed to be an ongoingcentral theme in churches to
(14:43):
proclaim and teach these things.
This is why the qualificationfor being an elder is you.
You got to be able to teach theword.
Why?
Because what's the centralthing that's supposed to be
happening in the church is theteaching of the word of God.
That would help developpeople's lifestyle into
something that would honorChrist further the gospel, build
the kingdom, et cetera, etcetera, et cetera.
So the proclamation of the wordis an incredibly important
(15:07):
thing.
The Bible says that the powerof life and death is in the
tongue, that the power of thegospel.
You know what I mean.
It really is the proclaimedmessage itself, and the teaching
that we read all throughout theBible is ultimately sermons
that Paul is giving to people tohelp them learn, in light of
(15:28):
what the gospel is, how they'resupposed to live.
So it's pretty unavoidable.
The worship is prescribed inseveral places, but is replete
throughout scripture.
Obviously, we have hymns andsongs that people are singing.
The Psalter itself is full ofmusic that was specific to
different events the Day ofAtonement, the Day of Ascent,
(15:49):
you know.
Or this is a lament that wesang, you know.
Or this particular song we sangduring the Feast of Booth.
It was the songs that werespecific and connected to the
moments that they were trying tocelebrate, and yeah.
So if you're asking why do westructure services, the way that
we structure services, there'sreally three things that most
(16:13):
people will say are the marks ofa church, which is the giving
of the sacraments or ordinances,the faithful proclamation of
the word and exercising churchdiscipline.
Those are the three.
So am I heralding thefaithfulness of the word?
Am I actually doing the twothings God told me to do if
you're a Protestant anywayswhich is the Lord's Supper and
(16:34):
baptism.
And then am I defending thosethings, the holiness of God, the
word itself by kicking peopleout that are rebellious and
trying to bring destruction, orbringing people back in who are
in error, who need to be lovedand brought through a process?
But yeah, those things are likedeeply ingrained in scripture
(16:55):
and absolutely unavoidable.
If you're reading the NewTestament and wondering how,
then, should our services looklike Community getting together
in the word, prayer, worship,fellowship, teaching, and then
that applying and moving intoour lives but I thought maybe
what might be a good idea, tim,in light of this, is to give
people some thoughts about howto maybe get the most out of a
(17:19):
sermon, tim.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
McCoy yeah, well, that's what I was trying to get
at, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Tim McCoy.
Okay, so what I would want tocommunicate to people is that,
honestly, you can get things outof a song that will wreck your
heart for God.
You can get things out of apiece of artwork.
You can get things out ofsomething a child says.
I think it's really importantthat we start with ourself, and
(17:46):
if you are dull to the gospeland you're mad at somebody else
for not getting there for you,that's just selfishness and
laziness presenting itself in anargument against faithfulness.
It's somebody else's fault thatI'm not getting to do or feel
the way that they're supposed tomake me feel on this particular
(18:06):
day.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
That's just horse crap and then it's just a
terrible sermon.
I'm never coming back.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Well, and I would even say that to be able to
understand if it really was aterrible sermon, your heart has
to be in the right place.
Then you would know.
But if your heart's in thewrong place, you might hear a
totally crap sermon and thinkit's great, that was the best
thing ever, right?
So you want to prepare for amessage by first preparing your
(18:31):
soul.
Like every Sunday and I broughtthis up before every Sunday
before I am doing ministry,before I'm listening to this
sermon or whatever, I'm prayingmyself hot.
I am spending time in prayer towake my heart up, because when
I walk in I'm not there, justflat out.
I'm tired, I got stuff I'mthinking about with kids or this
(18:52):
going on or that going on, andif I don't spend time in prayer
getting my heart to a placewhere I really am expectant and
wanting to see God move andready to listen for what he's
wanting to do, nothing goodhappens.
I prepare then to study.
So if you see me in a sermon,you're usually going to see me
with my Bible, you're going tosee me with a notebook, you're
going to see me with a pen, andsome of you guys might see me
(19:14):
with my phone too, because Ihave Logos on my phone and so
I'm going to sit there.
I'm going to open up my Bibleto the passage he's going to be
in.
If I know what it is early, I'mprobably going to read through
it early.
If I don't know where he'sgoing, I'm going to be ready to
go there when he tells me toopen the thing.
I'm going to write notes with myown hand as often as I can,
because I think there's a directconnection between what I'm
(19:34):
putting down with my own handand what I'm getting into my
heart, and I think a lot ofpeople are used to typing and
putting stuff in notes.
I love stuff in notes.
I'll do that if I don't have apen and paper, but there is a
real connection, like aphysiological connection,
between what you're writing downwith your hand and what you're
actually retaining andconnecting with.
And so I have a pen that Ireally love, I have a notebook
(19:55):
that I really love, and I got aBible that I really love,
because I want to actually getthe most out of those things too
.
So, like, if I'm saying this islike a finer things moment,
yeah, great, if you're going toget things that you really enjoy
and want to use and enjoy using, do it when it helps stir your
heart for a love for God and adesire to study.
So pen paper Bible.
(20:18):
If you're a guy who likes likeme, who likes to study, pop open
, log off on your phone, justhave notifications and stuff
silent so you're not havingdistractions come up while
you're trying to study which youcan do.
Obviously, you've got to besomewhat disciplined, but I like
doing that, and then I prepareto spend more time in the sermon
(20:39):
after it's preached, like Iwill probably listen to the same
sermon again.
I'll go back through and thinkabout it.
I'll hear stuff that I didn'thear before.
I want to pick up furtherinsights, and then I want to
start asking questions.
What, ultimately, is the fullthing that he was trying to
communicate in this passage?
What were the applications thatI'm hearing but I'm not
(21:02):
uniquely applying to my own life?
What am I missing Life?
What am I missing?
And then I should be takingthis thing home and I should be
looking at other texts that it'sconnecting with.
What does this text say aboutthis?
He quoted these three differenttexts.
Okay, I'm going to go to those.
I'm going to read through thosedifferent things.
(21:28):
If you're a nerd like me, I'mgoing to be asking how does the
original language in this texttake me a little bit deeper into
it?
Are there specific cultural,you know, uh relevancies here
that shed further light onwhat's being communicated?
Um, and then I like to shift itand this I'm like.
I feel like I'm taking you guysthrough a weird world, but this
is how my head works, okay, andthen I take it to okay, if I
had to teach this to someone,how would I do it?
(21:48):
Wow, and then I'm going tostart writing down.
This is probably the way Iwould phrase this.
This is a text that I wouldconnect it with, because I like
this one a little bit better.
Or I think, man, this verse isso good.
How many of us in a message arelike oh, I have a quote that
goes along with that.
That's really great.
I mean it happens to me all thetime and I sit there, like you
(22:09):
know, wanted to raise my hand,which is not appropriate outside
of worship.
You know, and I'll write downsome quotes, I'll have some
different stuff and the reason Istarted doing this, Tim,
actually originally was becauseI listened to this David Platt
secret church thing back in theday.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
David Platt, dude.
Yeah, and I could say somethings about the driest sermon.
The driest guy to talk aboutthe day David Platt, dude.
Yeah, and I can say some thingsabout the driest sermon.
The driest guy to talk aboutthe Bible is David Platt.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
And there's a lot that's like gone over the edge
there.
There's a whole thing.
But here's what I would say.
He did a four-hour teaching onthis and what he would do is he
would do this massive teaching.
But there were all these peopleand he talked in this message
about going to these likecandlelit meetings, underground
in these war-torn lands orwhatever, where it was illegal
(22:54):
to teach the word of God.
And these men were not goingfor the purpose of hearing a
message.
They were going for the purposeof absorbing everything that
they possibly could so that theycould go back to their own
congregations and teach thepeople that they were talking to
.
So the goal is not man learneda lot today, really good.
(23:16):
The goal is how am I actuallytaking what was shared, what was
taught, this information, thestructure, what's going on here,
and then thinking about how Iwould uniquely apply it to the
people that I'm speaking to orthe people that are in my own
life?
In an instant, how could I takethis and, in a five-minute devo
(23:36):
, give this to my kids in aunique way that I would want
them to understand or to take itwith me?
And so, if you are kind ofwalking through this process of
preparing my soul, preparing tostudy.
I'm spending more time planningon listening to this again and
again.
I want to think through theright questions to ask to help
(23:57):
stir stuff, and then I'm takingit, working through other texts
that correspond with it,thinking about cultural
relevance, walking potentiallythrough the original language.
If you got logos or somethingyou want to pop into and then
making it your own message, it'spretty hard not to get
something out of it.
And Howard Hendricks said theBible doesn't yield its fruit to
(24:17):
the lazy.
And I would say the same thingabout sermons.
Sometimes somebody is so giftedthat they, just when they speak
, man, the meat just falls offthe bone and you're like, oh,
this was so great.
Here's the to have all the workdone for you.
Maybe Is it good to do that allthe time?
(24:42):
Is it actually teaching you atthat point?
Maybe not.
And Tim used to get mad at mein the kitchen when we worked
together, cause if I teach you askill, you know like I remember
one time I made you, I taughtyou how to make lemon, lemon,
roses and orange roses.
And then it was like an Easterbrunch or something we were
doing ironically, and I was likeI need a hundred of these.
And you're like I wish younever taught me this.
(25:05):
And I think that's how it'ssupposed to feel.
If you're getting the most outof a message is ah, dang it.
I wish I didn't hear thissermon this week.
Now I know I need to do this youknow because it's the
conviction and what you actuallylearned, then I will begin to
see how I can apply it in mylife.
But if you go in as a consumerand not as a student I guess is
(25:27):
the best way to say this thenyou're going to miss what God's
actually trying to teach you.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
That's interesting because I think it's always the
perception of the pastor's jobis to do that for me, like you
were saying.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I think the goal of the pastor is to equip the
saints for the work of ministry.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
But when you go in for a sermon, it's like I want
to hear something that makestotal sense to my soul, right,
yeah, that I could go home andtake it with me, yeah, Let me
give you a picture.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Tim Moses would go up the mountain and get revelation
for the people and come backdown and tell them.
This is what God has said Inthe New Testament Jesus
descended from heaven.
He came down the mountainhimself to meet with us.
He gives his own spirit to usso that we can commune with him,
(26:15):
so that we can kneel before thethrone you know, the throne of
grace to find mercy and help inour time of need.
And I think sometimes we'restill looking for a Moses.
We want somebody to go get themessage for us.
You talk to God, you get allthe things that we, you just
tell us and we'll do that andwe'll let you know.
Whether we like it or not, andif you're gone too long, it's
(26:36):
your fault that we made thegolden calf and partied because
you're supposed to help me, andthat kind of mentality is.
It's totally wicked.
The goal is that the gospel,the kerygma, would transform our
hearts by the spirit, so thatwe would become a new creation
that has new appetites, thatwants to walk in a way that
(26:57):
would honor God and grow in ourfaith.
That has new appetites, thatwants to walk in a way that
would honor God and grow in ourfaith.
The didika is the teaching thatpastors and elders and
shepherds, overseers, bishopsall the same word, same thing.
They're supposed to be able toprovide for us so that we would
begin to live our life in adifferent way, but also teach
these truths to other people.
This is the whole picture.
(27:19):
I think it's 2 Timothy 2, right.
Teach the things that you haveheard and seen in me in the
presence of faithful witnesses.
Teach these things to otherfaithful men who can teach
others also.
There's four generations ofteaching in that what you saw me
do and what I taught you to do.
I want you to teach others alsoso that they can teach other
people as well.
I want you to teach others alsoso that they can teach other
(27:40):
people as well.
It's never supposed to be.
I went in, I got a great sermonand it died with me.
In fact, I would say if youheard a sermon this week and
that sermon died with you, youfailed.
(28:00):
The goal is to take whatever itis that God showed you through
that process of your ownpreparation, your readiness and
then actually enjoying the meal.
It's a lot like going to afancy restaurant, tim, and not
enjoying what they did at thatrestaurant Cause you just don't
care.
You know somebody who's like Ispent 150 bucks you know what I
mean On this meal to get you areally nice day.
Oh man, you know you've neverhad foie gras on top of your
steak like that, and it'sdelicious.
(28:20):
I want you to try it.
I think it's really good.
But then somebody's like what isthis disgusting gelatinous
thing on top of my steak?
I don't want get me Taco Bell.
You know what I mean, and Ithink a lot of times pastors can
feel like that.
Like man, I put all these hoursin, I worked really hard.
I wanted to bring you thismessage, but preaching to a cold
(28:43):
heart man is so hard and I gotto tell you.
I experienced this recently,tim, because I had to teach a
bunch of high schoolers and Ijust wanted to die afterwards.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I think I brought this up.
Yeah, you did what they did Ibrought this up with AJ.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, and it's like there's such a difference
between somebody who comes ready, who wants to hear, who wants
to learn, who wants to grow andis there to like get after it,
and somebody who is forced to bethere that doesn't want to be
there.
And, unfortunately, easter isnot a time to cast your pearls
before swine.
Easter is the time to try towake the dead.
When I come as somebody who was, you know, woken, or somebody
(29:20):
who has woken up from the dead,I get to come as somebody who is
a living representation of whatGod has actually done.
And I would say this If you area Christian we've used the term
on the podcast a lot ofhierophany You're a place where
heaven is touched earth.
You, christian, are a hierophany.
(29:40):
You are a place where heavenhas collided with earth and
created a moment in time inhistory that forever represents
the goodness and mercy andevidence of God.
And I would say you should walkaround like that.
You should live that way.
I am a representation of whatGod can do when his mercy and
(30:02):
grace and presence touchessomething that was dead.
I am now alive and let me tellyou what my God has done and
these hierophanies throughoutscripture, tim, I think you know
are these places where peoplewould build altars?
Right, it was like God touchedthe ground here.
He spoke to, to me here, so I'mgoing to build this altar.
That's supposed to be us.
We're supposed to be living,walking, breathing hierophanies.
(30:25):
I am a place where heaventouched earth and now I'm an
expression of god's goodness andmercy to anybody who would walk
by and see me.
Um, and when we are receivingthe word of God, hopefully, we
are being constantly remindedthat I am a conduit for heaven
here and I need to receive thisstuff and do something with it
(30:46):
that actually matters, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, but there's been moments where I mean
there's sermons I think I'velistened to 10 years ago that I
still listen to on a regularbasis.
Yeah, You're right.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
So I think I'm always trying to chase that next one,
you know.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I think sometimes God does reach down and uniquely
speak to you without you havingto put work in.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
You know what I mean.
But it's more like him, justlike grabbing you by the
shoulder and like look at me,yes, daddy, you know what I mean
.
Like, okay, I'm listening now.
Sometimes there is somethingthat so speaks to your heart,
dude, that you're almost undonein the moment, and it's glorious
.
You cannot do something withthat, yeah.
But I mean, I think if we'rewanting that every week, we're
(31:30):
not wanting obedience or to walkout what God has called us to
do, we're just looking for anexperience because it was so
awesome.
And do I want heaven?
Yes, do I want to be in thepresence of God all the time?
Heck, yeah, obviously I do.
That's why Jesus was runningaway to spend time with his
father all the time.
But ultimately, the work thatwe got to get done is part of
(31:52):
this process of identifying withChrist and knowing him.
Why?
Because he put on flesh.
He came down first and walkedthis out and showed us how to do
that and has given us theopportunity to do it with him,
so that we may know who he is,identify with his purposes, goal
and will and ultimately bevictorious with him through, you
(32:12):
know, cooperating with his will.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
So you think every sermon is something for you to
get something out of.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, yeah, I do, I do, even if what you got out of
the sermon was that guy'steaching was not as good as it
could have been.
Here's the three differentareas that I think I would have
spent more time if I was him.
Here's an area that I think hemissed.
I'm going to go back, I'm goingto rework this myself and
really try to solidify whatshould be there.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
That's such a weird thought too, cause it's like
this is the pastor, this is hisjob.
Who am I to question that?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Let me, let me walk you back, Tim, do you?
You have a job, but you alsohave a calling.
Sure, do you fall short in yourcalling?
Yeah, okay, um, and I would say, if I looked at most Christians
, I would say, at some levelyou've probably fallen short in
the calling that God has put onyour life.
But we think about it like youjust said this is your job, do
(33:06):
the job, and we don't think ofit as, oh no, actually this is
his life coming out of him rightnow.
How dare he have an area of hislife coming out of him that I
don't think is valuable ormeaningful enough in this moment
?
Now, for the record, if I amdoing a podcast where I'm
uniquely talking to pastors, Iam going to turn this on its
(33:27):
head and I'm going to smash backthe other direction really hard
, okay, but for the normalperson who is listening to this
podcast, who is, let's say,somebody who is attending church
, who loves the Lord, or isfiguring out their Christian
walk, navigating their Christianlife, oh, you said it, yep, I
did.
I'm going to do what the HolySpirit always does, which is
(33:48):
focus on you, not somebody else.
And I would say a pastor is notdoing a job, he's trying to
fulfill his calling, in the sameway that you're not just
walking around doing a job,you're trying to live out your
life as a Christian.
You're calling and sometimesyou crush it and sometimes you
fall short.
But we always want to fallforward.
And the worst thing that canhappen is when you treat a
(34:12):
pastor like absolute crapbecause he fell short in a
particular area, when you knowgood and well that you fall
short in your own life all thetime and somebody who does week
in and week out, bring the wordand try to love people and pour
into them and care for them.
When he does a bad job, haspeople leaving the church or
decide I'm just not being fedhere.
(34:33):
It's kind of jacked up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just think there should be alittle bit more mercy, a little
more grace in some of thoseareas.
Now, if you've been at a churchfor years and it's just stale
and you're like dude, Iliterally I'm not growing here,
okay, well, maybe that's Godtelling you, hey, I have
something else for you.
I want you to move from thispastor to this pastor.
That's not a bad thing, but Iwouldn't blame the pastor for
(34:53):
that or I wouldn't say it washis fault, say it was his fault.
I would say that's God changingsomething in me and I'm needing
to follow where he's telling meto go, not because the, the, uh
, you know the, the graphics atthis particular place are so
much better and I just theworship is so much better
because they have just betterquality there.
Well, yeah, I want those things, but ultimately that's not
what's going to grow me in myfaith, right?
(35:14):
Um, those are amenities thatare great when we have them, um,
but ultimately it could havethe potential to actually make
you worse at growing in yourfaith, because you'll rely on
the things that are done for youas opposed to having to stir
your heart and get to a placewhere you can participate and
have fellowship with Christwithout them.
(35:35):
And I think it was Francis Chanwho said this.
He said whatever you use to getpeople there are the things
you'll have to keep to get themto stay.
So, if it's like, if yourchurch is only bringing people
in because you know CarrieUnderwood is singing on a Sunday
morning and the graphics andlighting and everything are
(35:55):
absolutely perfect.
You're going to have to keepall those things, because the
gospel is not the reasonnecessarily that they're there
Now.
Our hope would be that, dude,I'm here for the gospel, but
these things are awesome andthey help elevate the experience
and stir my heart to put focuson Christ.
All of that Great.
I believe that.
But if you have a bad Sunday orthe message isn't great and you
(36:18):
feel like I'm not being fed orit might be you, bro, it might
be that I was relying too muchon everybody else to do the work
for me to get something fromGod and the second Moses stops
coming down the mountain.
I stop being an Israelite, youknow, and I would just encourage
you.
Jesus came down the mountainnot so that other people could
do it for you.
They can encourage you and helpyou, but your relationship with
(36:39):
Jesus is your own relationshipwith Jesus, and Jesus doesn't
have secondary friends orgrandkids, as some people like
to say.
It's you and him, and you'regoing to have to work that out
and get to a place where you cangrow personally.
So Easter Sunday is an importantday, tim, and I realized that
some days you've got to slug itout and some days it feels like
(37:00):
spiritual warfare and it's likeman.
I didn't get anything out ofthat, but I know this is where
I'm supposed to be and I dideverything that I could to do
the right thing, even though myheart wasn't totally where I
want it to be.
I think that I think God honorsthat more than everything was
exactly the way that I wanted.
Therefore, I could worship.
I mean, that seems that seemsshallow to me.
(37:22):
Somewhere in between is what wewant.
I used everything that I hadhere to elevate the experience
that I could so that I couldgive the fullness of my heart to
Christ.
That's what I'm trying to do,but it shouldn't stop there.
It should end up with, and so Itook everything that I received
from the Lord and I brought itto everybody I could.
That's how you actually closethe gap, and if you go halfway,
(37:44):
I actually think God will stopfeeding you personally.
Nice, so take that for whatit's worth, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Cool.
Thanks, man Appreciate this.
Talk man Awesome, All right.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, kind of random and all over the place, but
hopefully some good things thatyou guys can take out of this
and apply.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com