December 5, 2024 • 45 mins
What if the secret to a truly restful life is hidden in an ancient commandment? Join us as we unpack the significance of the Sabbath, guided by Josiah and other familiar voices. Through humorous anecdotes and intriguing biblical narratives, we reflect on the motivation Thanksgiving has given us, critiquing those who prefer to criticize rather than contribute, and encouraging active community participation. Listen along as we navigate the necessity of Sabbath rest and ponder its importance for a life less burdened by busyness.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey guys, welcome to Navigate.
Hi Justin, hey buddy, Welcomeback again.
You look fabulous.
Thank you, we are on a roll.
You know why?
Give me some butter?
Because we've gone two in a row, justin.
Oh my gosh, we're getting itdone, we're doing it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It was the glory of Thanksgiving Tim it was.
That has given us the specialpower and ability to stay on a
roll.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Speaking of bellies of power, we have Josiah with us
.
Oh yeah, it's good to be back.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
What is up, josie?
What's up buddy?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
What's up guys?
You only come on the podcastwhen Justin's here.
I kind of feel a little hurtfulabout that.
That's a fair point.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I mean, I think, it was a long time ago.
I was in a couple like when wewere doing like the mini-divos.
Oh, yeah, you brought me in onlike two of those.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah, I kind of miss those.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Back in the day.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Back in the day.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I'll tell you what.
The next time I'm out, grabthis guy, throw him in, give him
a weird topic like I don't know, something like menstrual laws
or something you know, justthrow a weird one out and be
like listen, josiah, you reallyneed to explain to me.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
The stuff you guys find fascinating in the Bible is
way different than me, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
There's a story in Deuteronomy about this girl who
tries to break up a fight, endsup getting her hand cut off.
Explain to me why that happens.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I'm sorry, some of you are going to look that up
and find out what that's allabout.
It's a real thing somehow, yeah, anyways, let's continue this
series of commandments.
Okay, yeah, let's go.
We're doing the fourth one,which is keep the Sabbath holy,
and prior to recording this, wewere talking, we kind of did one
back in.
Was it March?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, we were doing one on rest.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, so the Sabbath came up a lot, so there might be
a lot of stuff that maybe comesback.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm assuming there will be some overlap a little
bit.
Yeah, that's okay.
That's fine, tim.
You know what I think about.
What I think about Sabbath,though, was when you were
working at.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
DFC back in the day.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, and you had that.
What was it like?
10 o'.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Okay, yeah he was asking to speak to somebody and
I said well, there's nobody here.
He's like well, who are you?
I'm like I'm just themaintenance guy.
He's like oh, so you're notanybody important I need to talk
to.
Literally said important totalk to.
Wow.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Thanks, bud, and he's like that's all I needed to
know and just left.
But now I know what the fourthcommandment is from the rest of
my life because of that one dude.
It was an angel.
Angel or not, you never forgetit, never forget it.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
And he walked among us.
If it was an angel, he was aprick.
When I'm dead, in eternity, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Tim, that's the point You're saying.
I hope I don't meet him again.
Maybe that's the wrong way tothink about it.
I don't know.
I have a lot of stories fromworking back scenes in a church.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I wonder if people let him into their church based
on a set of specific questionsthat he can either answer or not
answer.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It was wild, I don't know it was very strange, very
rude, that's pretty wild.
I don't know it was verystrange, very rude, that's
pretty wild.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
It's like that false piety dude just walking around
and critiquing every church yeah, he gets his jolly he's not
serving or doing anything, butfeels validated by telling
everybody else what they're notdoing.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well enough.
Especially at 10 o'clock atnight, when after hours, all I'm
saying is, those who don't willalways validate themselves by
criticizing those who do willalways validate themselves by
criticizing those who do.
So if you're somebody who istrying and working hard to do
things and you're gettingcritiqued from people, just be
reminded.
98% of those people, theirwhole existence.
(03:34):
They feel validated by lookingat you and feel better about not
doing anything because they canpoint at people who haven't
done it exactly right.
And there's a lot of that inour world today in general.
In fact, I feel like somepeople's whole ministry is built
on that.
You know what I mean.
You get, oh geez, I don't wantto name drop here, or else I'm
(03:56):
doing the same thing.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
There are some people .
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I remember reading an article from Pulpit and Penn
one time it was his blog andtheir whole goal in life is just
to wreck people that they don'tlike.
And I just remember thinking Iwill never be this person, I'm
not going to do this.
Like your whole thing isfinding some weird nuance or a
word somebody used the wrong wayand then just lighting them up,
and I'm like there's a verydark place in hell for people
(04:23):
like you.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Just calling everybody a heretic.
That's what Jesus said to thePharisees, right yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
you love to load heaps on people's backs.
You won't lift a finger to helpthem, right?
So listen?
If you listen to this podcastand we're throwing this out here
, we haven't even gotten to thecontent today.
There will be no rest for you.
If you love to critiqueeverybody else, you're
constantly mad at your church.
You're probably not serving,not helping and not bought into
(04:50):
what's actually going on.
Find a place either whereyou're going to do that or stop.
Yeah, Okay, Throwing it outthere.
That's for free.
Awesome, You're welcome.
You're welcome for that.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
All right.
Well, back to the subjectmatter here.
The Sabbath.
I'm actually more curious.
Why was this a necessarycommandment that God had to give
his people.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Why are any of them necessary, Tim?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I could ask that question with all of them really
, but I want to lead with thatone.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I think the Sabbath law, at least just from a
functional standpoint,functional standpoint is written
into the fabric of existenceand what God commands as a
eschatological reality and as areality built into the fabric of
who we are as insufficientpeople.
(05:37):
So, to sum this up, the Sabbathis commanded by God to remind
you, as an individual, that youare not enough.
This is like a okay, here's aninteresting thing to think about
.
Okay, why do you have to eat?
Anybody ever been frustrated byhunger?
Yeah, like, why is this a thing?
(05:59):
Why did God make like?
These are the things that hit mewhen I'm on the pillow at like
11 pm, the pillow thoughts, andI'm like trying to close my eyes
and you've seen the meme before.
And your brain is like hey,what happens if Pinocchio says
my nose is going to grow?
You know what I mean.
And then you got to decide inthat moment Is it a lie?
Is it not a lie?
Does his head just explode?
(06:26):
One of these things, ultimately,is like why do you have to eat
food?
Well, god created you in such away that you would have to
remember that you are dependenton things that are
non-negotiables, and if youdon't do this, you will
literally die, and it can eitherbe a great joy to you, it can,
or it can be a great frustrationto you.
Depends on how you want to viewit and how you want to live
your life Right.
The, the lazy man, finds food ajoy and also a terror, because
(06:48):
he does not want to work toactually create the kind of food
and enjoy the thing that he'smeant to have.
It's frustrating to him.
All right, there's otherelements of this that I could
get into.
Like there's just one afteranother.
Why do we require this?
Why is humans, are we so needy?
And why is humans, are we soquick to think that we're not
(07:13):
needy at all and everyone elseis Um?
I think the Sabbath representsfor all of us this great
reminder that we cannot find umor be sustained in who we are
apart from reliance on Godhimself.
And if this commandment isn'there, we become, let's say,
(07:33):
ostensibly self-sufficient andtotally fine without God.
How's that?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Does that sum it up?
Well, take your best shot atout of Josie.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
I would just piggyback onto there that it's
the very essence of the gospel,because man's dependence upon
himself and his own ability iswhat's being stripped away.
When it comes to the Sabbath,you rest because God's the one
who actually has control ofeverything in your life.
(08:03):
It is not your job, it is notyour efforts, it is not your
efforts, it is not how much foodyou stored up, it's not all X,
y and Z, all these differentthings that you've done in your
life.
What you're becoming dependenton when you have to take a day
of rest is that God's the onethat makes the world go round,
and I think that is the veryfabric and essence of the gospel
in and of itself.
And so, yeah, I mean it'sfundamental to the
(08:25):
creator-creature distinctionthat we are God's creatures and
the fallenness of man is hisattempt to become God.
Therefore, the Sabbath wasabsolutely necessary to remind
us of our creatureliness and whoGod is as creator.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Okay, so, but the Sabbath, as we view it now, is
like one day a week, usuallywith Sundays right.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
No no.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
You don't consider Sunday Sabbath?
No, why not?
A lot of people do, do you?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
consider Sunday Sabbath.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
I would say that I mean, that's what I was brought
up to believe anyway.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
The.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Sabbath was also a day of worship and rest in the
Lord.
I think that you're shown inthe New Covenant that ministry
is even allowed on that day.
So I would say the Lord's Daywould be rightfully the new
Sabbath.
What's the Lord's Day?
The Lord's Day Sunday asopposed to Saturday.
(09:22):
That's inaugurated because ofChrist's resurrection.
Oh, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So normally a Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar and
Sabbath is on Saturday, andthen we celebrate the Lord's day
on Sunday because it was aresurrection day.
So I would say that the Sabbathlet's say as a functional,
let's say rigid principle oftaking Saturday off.
(09:46):
You know, in Israel, like theelevators, you can't press a
button so they don't run onSaturdays.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Really.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Literally straight up .
Wow, you're not allowed to flipa light switch on Saturdays.
Like they are dead seriousabout some of this stuff.
It blows my mind.
Those regulatory principlesaround Sabbath, I would say, are
transmuted to the heavenlies.
Christ, let's say, fulfilledthose in the law and I would say
that the Sabbath for us now isa principle that we follow, not
(10:18):
a practice that's as rigid onthat particular day.
In fact, I would say that Idon't celebrate the Sabbath in
this sense as I read it in thecommandment.
I would say I celebrate theSabbath in Christ and there's
principles about the Sabbaththat are applied to the Lord's
day, which is resurrectionSunday.
If you think about the Sabbathbeing put into place, it was
(10:40):
this where the final day, theultimate last day, is a day of
rest, right, and then after thatday of rest is a new day.
If you think about Christcoming, it represents our final
rest has come and now we'rebeginning to celebrate something
(11:01):
new, a new creation, a new daythat begins after the fullness
of what was accomplished.
So, now that Christ has come, Iwould say the Lord's day for us
does not.
It resembles Sabbath, but isnot the ultimate Sabbath,
because Christ is our Sabbathhe's our rest.
Okay, interesting, kind of awild ride there.
Now listen, there's a lot ofink that has been spilled on
this particular topic.
Like some people, aggressiveSabbatarians they're like heck.
(11:23):
No, if you mow your lawn on aSunday and you don't attend
church, there's a good chanceyou're going to be under church
discipline for abusing theSabbath.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well, the Pharisees went to Jesus too about working,
doing stuff on the Sabbath.
Oh yeah, he called them out forit too.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, well, he told them I'm allowed to heal people
on the Sabbath.
Yeah Right, the Sabbath wasmade for you, not you for the
Sabbath, Like his whole point.
Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Oh, sorry, no, I'm sorry, sorry to cut in here, but
I mean it's for good deeds too.
It's not that good deeds wereliquidated, I mean Jesus' old
parable of the man who.
What is it?
What's the parable that he usesof the analogy of?
What is it the donkey?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
The donkey in the well.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
The donkey in the well and helping your neighbor.
I mean it still was.
I mean they went so far withthe Mishnah and all these other
laws that they began to be sohypercritical about this that
you couldn't do anything butJesus.
I think a huge thrust of whathe's trying to show them is that
, look, because of yourtraditions, you added all this
stuff onto there, but by no waywas the Sabbath meant to exclude
(12:27):
good deeds from happening Right.
Otherwise you'd be disobeyingthe law because you'd see your
neighbor in need and the lawrequires you to assist your
neighbor and if you fail to doso, you're basically an
accomplice if somebody'sattacking them.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
You miss the point of the Sabbath, you miss the point
of the rules.
You put the cart before thehorse.
Yeah.
So, like Isaiah 58, I'd love tobring up when we talk about
Sabbaths.
If you turn back your foot fromthe Sabbath, from doing your
pleasure on my holy day, andcall the Sabbath a delight and
the holy day of the Lordhonorable, if you honor it, not
going your own way or seekingyour own pleasures or talking
(13:01):
idly, then you shall takedelight in the Lord and I will
make you right on the heights ofthe earth.
I will feed you with theheritage of your father, jacob,
for the mouth of the Lord hasspoken.
This passage is really makingthe point.
Hey, the Sabbath is not aboutyou, it's not a day of self-care
.
You know?
Help me out.
Is it self-care?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Self-help?
Yeah, it's not a self-help day.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
It's not about that.
It's about prioritizing theLord.
It's about resting in him anddoing the things that he has
asked you to do, instead of thethings that you think you're
supposed to do.
So if your idea of Sabbath iseating hot dogs, watching ball
games, playing a stupid game youlike to play, or whatever,
making it all about resting, Ithink you're actually missing
(13:42):
the substance of it.
Now, rest is certainly a partof it, but it's maybe a
different kind of rest than whatwe think about.
When we think about rest, wethink about self-care, and I
just I don't think that's theessence of what it's actually
(14:02):
trying to get at, and it framesit a couple of different ways.
So Deuteronomy frames theSabbath in the, let's say, the
redemption of the Israelitepeople, them being taken out of
Egypt and brought into thepromised land, and he basically
says hey, take the Sabbath as areminder, because God is the one
who brought you out of Egyptand took care of you.
So everybody in your land needsto take this day and remember
that God is the one who savedyou.
(14:23):
You can't do it on your own.
He's got you.
Take the day to remember that.
In Exodus, he actually frames ita little bit differently.
He frames it in creation andsays because God rested on this
day, you need to do so as well.
And it's kind of a twofoldreminder.
One, you need to do thisbecause God modeled it for you
first, and if he's telling youto do this, you need to do this.
(14:43):
Secondly, he's making the pointthat, hey, god is telling you
you need to rest because he'sactually the one that's going to
take care of you.
In both senses it's a referenceto what God has done and your
need to, like, chill out,breathe out and focus on him and
what he has done.
And then obedience to what hehas called you to do.
Those are big deals, but bothof them are kind of
communicating at least basicallythe same substance of reliance
(15:07):
on God and what he has told youinstead of what you think you
need to get done this particularday.
And let's let's be honest,we're kind of addicted to work,
but we're also addicted toentertainment, which makes us
feel more exhausted and busythan we actually are.
Yeah, now, wouldn't you agreewith that, like?
we totally agree, we had a lotgoing on, but sometimes our
weariness and exhaustion is ourown fault because we've just
been death scrolling or doingwhatever other weird nonsense we
(15:30):
didn't need to do.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
I think rest for me has and this is a part of
delusion I have is I finally getto do the things that I want to
do and I get two, three hoursor whatever it might be.
I finally get to read this bookor play this game or watch this
movie with no interruptions.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, yeah, it rarely feels restful either.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah, it's enjoyable, worthless.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Honestly, it's the difference between something
being enjoyable and it beingrestful maybe.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
What's fascinating is that you I mean even I was
talking to Pastor Matt a whileago and he even talked about the
culture in Europe and howthey're able to just relax and
everybody has a pretty slow lifeIn the United States we have a
totally different culture.
We have a culture, as RushJuney would call it, a culture
of insomnia, A culture where youcannot rest, you cannot sleep,
(16:21):
and even when you are resting,you are finding entertainment
and you're doing things.
And I think what's fascinatingis ultimately that the heart
condition behind that is a heartthat doesn't want to be left to
itself, because then it's goingto tear itself to pieces or
really feel the guilt and theweight of what it's done.
I mean, this goes all the wayback to.
You know, I keep thinking ofRush Dooney's comments on this
(16:45):
from the Institutes of BiblicalLaw, but what he talked about
was that wicked people, peoplewho are evil, they cannot rest.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
You're saying there's no rest for the wicked.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
There is no rest for the wicked.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
You can put it that way.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
But yeah, there's no rest for the wicked, and he
talks about how every otherreligion.
I mean, if your entire systemis man-centered, then the world
goes around because of you.
Everything's dependent upon you, and when you decide to navel,
gaze at yourself, you're goingto be disappointed with yourself
.
I mean, this goes back to whatyou brought up in the beginning
with sufficiency.
We are insufficient, and sowhen, if I sit there and I'm
(17:24):
supposed to rest and all I canmeditate on is my
insufficiencies, it's going tomake me miserable.
In fact, I cannot rest.
I'm incapable of it because I'mnot looking to the thing that
is sufficient, that actuallygives me peace.
Because I have no peace, thewicked don't have peace.
Then comes the distractionsthat we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Think about this in prayer.
This is a good principle foryou If you're thinking okay,
justin, I get what you'retalking about, this idea of rest
, but it's focused on God, butit's also like a time of peace.
If you're the kind of personwhen you pray, you got all these
anxieties and frustrations, andyou pray and you walk away and
you still have all thoseanxieties and frustrations.
(18:03):
You didn't like give thosethings to God or learn to focus
on helpful things.
You're just staying exhaustedand involved God in the process.
Yeah Right, sabbath is supposedto be like that.
That day is a day where you'reintentionally saying the angst
that I feel, the projects that Ithink I need to get done.
I'm intentionally laying thesethings aside and I'm going to
(18:25):
focus on the good things God hasdone and hand those things to
him and trust them with them,knowing that he actually has
them, not me.
Those things to him and trustthem with him, knowing that he
actually has them, not me.
And if I continue to carry theload on this day of rest that
I'm trying to take, or this timeof rest that God has given me,
instead of giving it to Christduring this time, what I am
saying is.
I know better than God does andI have to take care of this
(18:48):
because he won't.
That's the picture.
So prayer and this day ofSabbath if you want to call it
this, or this idea of Sabbath,are similar in this idea that
it's actually an intentionalremoving of the weight that you
have been carrying with regardsto what you need to do and what
you have to accomplish andputting those things on God and
(19:08):
saying he is my rest.
I'm going to put these thingsdown and when I acknowledge that
he is my rest, then I actuallyget rest myself.
But until I make that mentalshift, put these things on him
and allow myself to breathe outand trust him with those things,
I will not receive rest at all.
I can't because I'll continueto shoulder something that I'm
(19:28):
not supposed to.
This is the point of why I wassaying earlier.
This is really fulfilled inChrist.
If you are a Christian, christis now your rest.
All right, eschatologically,ultimately, soteriologically,
other big words.
At the end of all things,holiness is restored to us in a
(19:49):
unique way that we didn't havebefore, and I brought this up on
our other podcast.
We did on this, but reallyangst and weariness is a desire
for holiness that we have.
I want to be made holy.
I'm not Something's wrong,something is deficient,
something is off, and I have adesire for it to be put back
together.
And my weariness, my hunger,all those things like.
(20:10):
You realize this in heaven.
You're not going to be hungryanymore.
You're not going to need sleepanymore.
Why?
Because all of that's fulfilled.
I no longer have that.
Why?
Because I'm in the verypresence of Christ himself and
he sustains all.
And this is why, in like inRevelation, it says there's no
need for the sun anymore.
You don't need the sun, it'sgone.
Why?
Because Christ is our light,you know what I mean.
(20:30):
It's like well, you mean thebasic thing that's needed for
all of life and existence itself, the thing that gives us night
and day and all these things.
Yeah, you don't need that.
Why?
Because Jesus literally nowsustains all those.
What is that?
The restoration of holiness,the restoration of what you were
meant to have in the verybeginning, but even in a greater
sense than in Eden, because youhave transcended even the
(20:50):
bodies that they had at thatpoint into a resurrection body
which is even greater than whatthey had in the Edenic state.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
In my opinion, yeah, and if you cannot rest in God
now, like if you don't takeseriously the Sabbath and the
reality that you're meant torest in God and depend on what
he can do, then eternity isgoing to be terrible for you.
I mean the penultimate blessingof rest, I mean what history
ends in, is the ultimate restthat God has promised his people
.
If you can't rest now in him,the ramifications of that
(21:19):
eschatologically is pretty badfor you.
I mean because your life isstill about you.
You're independent.
You're basically saying I haveno need of God.
And this is why it's sointriguing, because when I came
to look at the Ten Commandments,this was always the one that
stuck out to me.
I'm like dude, why does thatmatter?
Like who cares?
Like even growing up, nobodyever really could describe to me
(21:40):
why the Sabbath matters.
In fact, most people would belike well, that doesn't apply to
us anymore.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
At all yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
But yet you know, the more that I've grown in
understanding the scriptures, isthat, just as you were saying,
soteriologically,eschatologically, I mean, it's
in the vein and fabric ofeverything that is Christianity.
Yeah, and so.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So if you thought about it this way, tim, you have
have no other gods before me.
Don't have any idols, don'ttake my name in vain or empty it
of its meaning, and rely on mein all things.
That, that's the picture thatyou have.
I am everything that you need,and you need something ongoing
in your life to remind you ofthat, lest you move away, float
(22:24):
away from that deep reality thatis supposed to be woven into
the fabric of all things.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, is the Sabbath still just a day then?
Cause it kind of like what youwere saying about Christ being
in you.
Now he is your rest.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
This is great dude, so let's talk about this, okay,
so think about it this way, timyou shall have no other gods
before me.
Is that something I do in a day?
Do what have no other godsbefore Yahweh, before Jesus?
Yeah, sure, is that something Ido a day of the week?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Every day, I would hope.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Okay, so you're saying that that is not
something that is, let's say,restricted to one particular day
.
Are there things that I do on?
specific days to reallyemphasize that and make sure my
heart is doing that.
Well, I would hope so.
I would hope so as well.
Right, I think what we'reseeing is, hey, the first table
of the law which is reallyfocused on this idea of
(23:16):
understanding my relationshipwith God.
Theology, anthropology, thatkind of what is my relationship
with God bleeds over into how Iactually live my life, whether
it's not stealing, not murdering, not committing adultery, not
lying All these different thingsare not a day of the week.
(23:37):
And I think the point is, whenwe look at the Sabbath, it was
something he instituted thatthey needed to have in an
ongoing way, built into thefabric of creation itself with
the way that God orchestratedthe week.
The six plus one, seven equalscompletion, the full number,
what it's supposed to be.
This idea bleeds over into itto help people understand
(23:57):
Sabbath is not just somethingyou do weekly, it's actually an
ongoing thing.
You need to practice with agreat emphasis on it in one
particular time to make sure youdo this.
So I do think, should everybodyhave a day where they are
resting 100%?
I think that is absolutely.
You should totally do that.
I think the commandment isfilled in Christ.
I think the principle stillexists for us today, which is
(24:17):
why most people would say theLord's day is our day to really
emphasize that and look at itand I would say, totally, that's
great.
I wouldn't necessarily call itthe Sabbath.
I would say the principle ofthe Sabbath is being used there
in that particular way.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
If I can just run through a text real quick, just
Colossians, chapter two, verses16 through 17.
I can just run through a textreal quick, just Colossians 2,
verses 16 through 17.
Ironically enough, justin and Iused this when we met with a
church of Sabbatarians who werepicketing outside of our church
and we had a debate with them.
And what did we do?
We almost convinced one of themto join us.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, they ran off because they were like he's like
stop convincing the people Ibrought with me oh, it was funny
.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
But Colossians 2.16, verse 17, is really where we get
the transposition, you can say,of this law.
Therefore, let no one passjudgment on you in questions of
food and drink or with regard toa festival or a new moon or a
Sabbath.
These are a shadow of thethings to come, but the
substance belongs to Christ andreally what the distinction here
(25:25):
is is that we have function andform going on here.
The outward expression haschanged of the Sabbath.
Christ is that outwardexpression for us now, but the
function, the essence of thesabbatical laws still apply to
us very much so.
So, just as you're saying, wecan observe a different day,
people can choose a differentform in which they practice this
, but the function of it, theessence of it, still needs to be
the same.
And just real quick, if at somepoint we can talk about the
(25:48):
ramifications of us abandoningsabbatical practices just beyond
individuality.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Dude dive in Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I'm just going to jump into it.
I think that we have a societythat is built that is completely
man-centered now to where youcannot stop a plant from running
nonstop.
We have built an entire systemthat is so dependent upon man
that nobody can actually restand take a day off.
And it's quite fascinatingbecause what you saw with Israel
(26:17):
is that, because the Sabbathwas so ingrained in their
society, they could take a yearoff where they would not have to
cultivate the land.
The sabbatical laws extended tothe earth as well.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, Literally whole patches of ground.
They're like it gets a SabbathIn the seventh year, the
sabbatical year.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
They were meant to leave the ground alone so they
could recultivate.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Do you know there's a big concern about this right
now.
Yeah, there's a massive concernabout ground itself.
We are using, let's say,grounds that are being farmed to
their extent, we're not givingthem any time to recover and
they're seriously concerned thatin the years to come we're
actually going to have a massivedeficit in food because we're
not allowing the ground to restWow, going to have a massive
(26:57):
deficit in food because we'renot allowing the ground to rest
Wow.
So interesting to me, likethere's just a natural
implication there of not doingit.
And the same way that you don'tsleep, you start hallucinating
and turn into a jerk.
You know what I mean, andactually end up dying if you
don't sleep long enough.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
It could kill you.
There's huge ramifications.
I mean, the seventh year, too,would also influence debts.
Seventh year, too, would alsoinfluence debts.
So, like you in other places ofthe laws and the case laws, you
were not allowed to go intoloans.
You weren't allowed to entrustthe example, the case that's
(27:32):
given, is a homeless manentrusting his coat to someone
else, and the reason he was notallowed to go into that kind of
debt is because it threatenedhis very livelihood.
So, with regards to peopleentering into loans, where, if
you couldn't pay off the loanand you went bankrupt, if all of
your assets would be liquidatedby the amount that you are in
debt, that's a wicked loan,that's usury, as the Bible would
(27:54):
call it.
But what's fascinating is thatthe sabbatical laws also
protected you from debt becausepeople you couldn't go into a
loan that would be with you therest of your life, to where you
would basically, by biblicalstandards, be considered
enslaved by the amount.
So in the seventh year, yourdebts were paid off, your debts
were freed, and so obviouslythere's a picture of forgiveness
(28:15):
as well and a picture of thegospel.
But just think about how, if wewere to implement these things
into society, even into thesystem in which we run, every
seven years all the debts wouldbe forgiven.
I mean it would change the waythat we live.
I mean you're talking about asociety that would be, so you
could say, self-sufficient tothe degree to where we actually
design our industry, to where wecan let it be for a while and
(28:41):
then we can actually recover.
We make a more self-sustainablesystem because we're not only
trusting in God to run thingsand to run the earth as he has,
but also the ability for societyto be at rest and to be at
peace and take a step back fromdestroying the land.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Really easy to abuse, though, too, like if I knew my
debts were going to be at restand to be at peace and take a
step back from destroying theland.
It's really easy to abuse,though, too, like if I knew my
debts were going to be paid inseven years and I just rack up
as much as I could.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, that's the thing is you wouldn't be allowed
to, because people, if theyknew the seventh year is coming
here's where you're at would notgive you a loan, because they
also would not want to forgive aton of debt on purpose.
So it made people have to becareful about what they were
asking for, when they wereasking for it and be more
thoughtful so that they'reactually paying attention to
their life and what they weredoing and how they were living.
And then, when they were bigmistakes made, somebody ran on
(29:28):
really hard times.
There was a drought in theselast two years.
If that seventh year hit, therewas a forgiveness portion of it
too, where it's like we'regoing to start fresh, and I
think it really was a wonderfulway to think about how we should
do life.
So, yeah, so if you get into thecivil aspect of the law itself
and how these things should beapplied to society states, all
(29:48):
these things, I wouldn't say, oh, the Sabbath is just, it's just
a spiritual thing.
No, there's implications thatgo across all kinds of things in
society that we would want toimplement in a very literal way
to honor God and what we'redoing, but ultimately it's a
representation and a picture ofChrist and our ultimate rest in
Him.
But I love that you broughtthat up, because there's a lot
of implication about how thatwould play out in a society
(30:10):
today and how it would actuallymake things a lot better than
where they're actually atcurrently.
Now, can I bring something upabout that?
Oh, josie, do you havesomething else you want to say?
Speaker 3 (30:19):
The last thing I would add is that, again, I'm
not saying here that we wouldone-to-one implement it, just
like Israel had it.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
General equity.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah, general equity the form, the spirit of it, the
essence of it is an extremelywise principle and it's built
into the very fabric of creation.
That's why over-cultivating thesoil that you have destroys it
and why we just discussed,obviously, that we're looking at
droughts and crop issues movingforward into the future, but
(30:49):
it's built into the fabric ofcreation and every single
biblical principle that Godgives us.
There is a depth of wisdomthere that I do not think that
we have expounded from thescriptures, and I think it would
be very wise for us to continueto look at the ramifications of
these laws and how they wouldactually affect our society
today.
And I would argue better, oursociety today.
(31:10):
But go ahead.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
No, no, no.
That's super good man, I lovethis.
So that's super good man, Ilove this.
I'm going to throw somethingout here, too, with regard to
Sabbath and our tendency tooverdo it or not rely on God or
be ongoing to the point wherewe're draining the ground of its
nutrients because we just won'tgive things a rest.
This is Edmund Burke.
Men are qualified for civilliberty in exact proportion to
(31:31):
their disposition to put moralchains upon their own appetites.
Disposition to put moral chainsupon their own appetites Okay.
In proportion as their love tojustice is above the rapacity.
In proportion is theirsoundness and sobriety of
understanding is above theirvanity and presumption.
In proportion as they are moredisposed to listen to the
counsels of the wise and good inpreference to the flattery of
(31:52):
knaves.
Society cannot exist unless acontrolling power upon will and
appetite be placed somewhere,and the less of it there is
within, the more there must bewithout.
This means that the more thereis within a person, the less
chains you need.
The less there is within aperson, the more chains you need
.
It is ordained in the eternalconstitution of things that men
(32:15):
of intemperate minds cannot befree.
Their passions forge theirfetters.
His point is, if you don't havea regulative principle strong
inside of you, then you will bemade a slave by the reality of
things outside of you.
If you have a strong desire tocontrol yourself and live in
(32:36):
discipline and rely on God, letthe ground rest, put down the
work for the day, quit doingthis, then you will find in the
eternal nature of thingsthemselves.
They will make you rest, theywill make you sit, they will
make you lie down.
I bring it up in Psalm 23.
He makes me lie down in creampastures because if I can't lie
down on my own, he will make medo it.
(32:56):
You'll get sick, you'll getsomething will go wrong.
It is built into the fabric ofreality that Sabbath is a
necessity.
And to your point, you begin tosee how we're unable in our
society today to do rest.
We don't know how and we'vereplaced rest with self-help
because we think distraction isbetter than actual peace.
(33:18):
And this is ultimately becauseif Christ is your rest, then
he's at the center of everythingand you actually know how to
put some things away and hangout and focus on what actually
matters and do the right things.
In our society we don't haveChrist at the center.
Who's at the center?
We are so.
What do I worship on Sabbath,now, when it becomes necessary
myself?
It's entertainment.
It's at the center.
We are so.
What do I worship on Sabbath,now, when it becomes necessary
Myself?
(33:39):
It's entertainment, it'sself-help, it's those kinds of
things.
Yes, exactly so.
It's important.
So some people and I would putmyself in this category suck at
putting work away.
Not good at it.
I talk to my wife about it allthe time.
I have to downshift, like witha distraction, oftentimes to get
myself to function the way thatI am supposed to and pay
(33:59):
attention to my kids, payattention to what's going on,
pay attention to my wife's heart, spend time in the world Like
I'm good at it Sometimes.
Sometimes I'm not good at it.
There is a large group of peoplein the United States that are
on the other side of thespectrum, who do not like work.
They don't like doing anything,and I would say it's really
(34:22):
important to notice what it saysin the beginning of this before
it gets to everything else.
It says six days you shalllabor and do all your work.
The seventh day you rest.
So at least one large portionof this commandment is telling
people you need to work six days, do something, you're working,
you're doing stuff, and it'sfunny to me because even in our
culture we do well.
Five days of work, two days I'moff, and actually the Bible is
(34:46):
saying well, at least one ofthose days that you're off from
your occupation.
If you live here in the States,and that's your Western world
and that's your flow, one ofthose days you're working at
home, you're doing stuff, you'recleaning, you're putting stuff
together.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
You're fixing things.
You still have thoseresponsibilities, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I think a lot of people punt on it, man.
Yeah, I mean, when it talksabout the sloth, especially in
Proverbs, it's like you go byhis house it looks like crap,
the fence is broken.
We are supposed to work, we'remade to work.
Work is not a bad thing, andI've read a lot of books on
(35:25):
Sabbath, even books like theRuthless Elimination of Hurry,
which I don't want to get into.
But the picture is, yes, weneed rest.
I would say we are an anxious,overworked society with a deep
hole and a desire for holiness,and we've replaced Christ with
ourself, and so we can't getrest and we're just turning
things up all the time and thebill comes due at some point and
it's not going to go well, andwe're distracting ourself with
entertainment from thedestruction that is going to
(35:48):
come if we don't get this undercontrol.
But there's a lot of people whodon't want to work, they don't
want to put time in.
They don't want to put time in,they don't want to do those
things, and they're constantlylooking for rest the rest of the
week, all the time, becausethey're constantly filling the
rest of their time withentertainment too.
You know what I mean, ordistraction, or other times.
Right, it's Thessalonians.
(36:08):
If a man doesn't work, he's notsupposed to eat.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I think of Nietzsche.
Normally I don't quote him, butit just brought a quote of his
to mind.
Under peaceful conditions, thewarlike man attacks himself.
And I'm like that is so true.
If you are at war in yourselfand you do not have the peace of
God, when you sit still and youhave that restful condition,
you have that time of rest.
You assault yourself, youassault your own mind.
(36:32):
There is no peace Again.
There is no rest for the wicked.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Totally, totally.
So.
What's a good practice, then,as a Christian?
If Sabbath is something webring with us every day, what
are some moments in our liveswe'd be like okay time to chill,
I would say, not withdistraction, like we've been
talking about either, butsomething that's actually godly
rest.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yeah, as far as godly rest goes, I think, first off,
sleeping is good.
You get a lot of sleep.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
You're not going to be helped anybody if you're just
continually tired, wouldn't yousay, if you suck at sleeping,
it's because you're not trustingGod?
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Yeah, you're not trusting God.
The wicked cannot sleep becausehe is staying up thinking about
all the things that he has todo and how he has to keep the
world spinning.
The Christian can, because theChristian's like you know.
God, you're sovereign,everything's in your hand.
I can actually rest mentallyand putting yourself in that
mindset.
I think it's an intentionalityto meditate on what's good, to
(37:27):
focus your mind on God'sabilities and not your
inabilities.
If you're focusing on yourinabilities, there's no rest and
you're tormented.
But if you're focusing on theabilities and how big your God
is, it puts your heart at restbecause you realize how powerful
he is.
I mean, you can always JarredNeal, pastor Jared Neal.
At this point he said somethingso profound that really changed
(37:49):
the course of my life.
He's like you can always askthe question what if?
And just him saying that, whatif I did this?
What if I did that?
What if I had a different wife?
What if I have, you know, adifferent job?
You can always run down thatrabbit hole and the truth is
that you're actually trying todetermine your future.
You are trying to be the God ofyour own destiny, divine your
future.
Yeah, exactly.
(38:10):
And so when you think that wayit's unhealthy.
There's an intentionality tosay no, it's not about what.
If it is, what has God done?
What will God do?
Who is my God?
And that is what truly is goingto give you rest, I think, from
that mindset.
That is then how you catapultinto everything else that you
would do to honor God Worshipobviously praising the Lord,
(38:31):
turning on some worship musicand praising him, focusing your
mind on him, spending aridiculous amount of time in
prayer and that doesn't meanjust like I got to be saying
something constantly and keepasking God for stuff.
Sit in the silence, sit in thesilence.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
That's so good, I think, yeah, getting good at
shutting your mind off for aminute and I don't mean by
filling it with something else,I mean get your brain to shut up
.
God speaks in the discipline ofsilence.
He does.
That's good.
I also want to touch oncovenant renewal, just briefly,
okay, and I'm not going to getinto all the implications of
(39:08):
that, because there's a wholeworld that we could get into.
There is something special thathappens when you put aside
everything else that you'redoing and you come together with
the covenant people of God andyou praise and you worship the
Lord together.
God not salvific grace from God, but a very real grace from God
(39:32):
that is given to those who taketime to worship in the covenant
community that you cannot findin entertainment or vacation or
whatever else you think yourweekend is for.
When you come together with thecovenant people of God and
(39:53):
worship and praise the Lordtogether and serve the body of
Christ and love one another anddo relationship with each other
the way that we're supposed to,something special happens when
you do that with your family.
It's a beautiful thing thatproduces rest in you in a way
that other things don't.
Most people think I'm going torest by getting away to the
(40:14):
mountains.
I'm going to rest by going toMoab.
I'm going to rest by gettingaway to the mountains.
I'm going to rest by going toMoab.
I'm going to rest by takingthis cruise.
And what you're talking aboutusually is more of a type of
entertainment and distractionthan a focusing on who your rest
actually is.
And I'm telling you, when youdo that, you're putting yourself
in the center of what will giveyou rest instead of Christ, who
(40:35):
is your rest in the center ofyour life.
And so when I talk about thisidea of covenant renewal is what
I mean is hey, god made acovenant with you and said
listen, I'm going to be your God, you be my people, I will be
your rest, I'll care for you, orI'll take care of you.
When you come back togetherwith the covenant people of God
and pray and renew your heartand remind yourself who he is
(40:56):
and receive communion orwhatever that looks like, what
you're doing is renewing thereality that God said I got you,
I'll take care of you, I willbe your rest.
And I would just tell you onyour weekends that one of the
best things that you can do isworship together on the Lord's
day, restore your heart, get toa place where you're actually
resting in Christ and allowinghim to be the fullness of what
(41:18):
he's supposed to be for you.
And we punt on it all the time.
We dodge that we think it's abox to check, not an infusion of
grace, and I really think it is.
I think people punt on that alot and so I would say, yeah, do
that, like go worship together,praise the Lord, make a point
of that and do it with otherpeople.
And I would even add to thatthere's a tendency for us, when
(41:40):
we think about rest, to thinkabout isolation and not
community.
And I would say, actually restis found with the people of God,
doing covenant things of Godunder the authority of God, in
the presence of God, like that'sa good thing that you want to
do.
And when we think about rest, wetend to think about get away
from everybody else, need to beby myself.
Give me a game, give me awhatever I'm like.
(42:01):
Look, I'm not againstentertainment, have fun.
Look, I'll pop open Skyrim oncein a while still, and I'll get
after it.
Nothing wrong with that, go forit.
I do think.
But that's not necessarily whereyour rest is.
And you need to know your restis.
And you need to know your restultimately is with the people of
God in the presence of God,worshiping our glorious God.
And how do I know this?
(42:22):
Why would I say this?
Well, because, ultimately, yourfinal rest is that.
So, if you want to know, hey,what is rest actually?
How does this end?
Well, in the presence of God,with the people of God
worshiping the Lord Christhimself.
And so if you want a picture ofthat now and how do I tap into
that now, go to church, be withthe people of the Lord, open the
(42:43):
book, worship and praise himnow, because that's a part of
how that is going to be absorbed, taken into your spirit,
refreshing you in this momentbefore you get to that final
resting place.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
One thing that I would like to tag on here would
be, along with bringing peoplein and worshiping communally
before God as the bride ofChrist, something else we've
lost in society is, I think,feasting and festivals Like we
cannot.
If we have an event, it needsto last X amount of time.
It needs to be like an hour,two hours even.
(43:14):
You know, I just recently gotmarried and we were, like, you
know, half an hour for this,half an hour for this, and when
you look at what they did in theBible, I mean they were
feasting for weeks.
And I'm like dude we're on theprecipice of Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
How come Thanksgiving isn't a week?
I know dude.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Well, I would argue for it to be all the way up
until Christmas, and then we one.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
And we feasted all over again.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
I love the concept of feasting and I think that we've
really lost our heart with that.
I think these Sabbaths are notthese melancholy days where you
get up and you put on sackclothand ashes and you go before the
Lord and you're really downcast.
These are meant to be days andtimes of joy and happiness, and
(43:56):
that's the point, and I thinkfestivals are a great expression
of Lord.
This is everything you've givenme Good drink, good food, good
friends and we're here togetherand we are worshiping and we are
centering our hearts on theLord.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Well, that's the difference between.
Do I see having to eat food asa frustration or do I see it as
a glorious good that God hasgiven to me?
The rest is the same thing.
Do I see it as a frustration oras a good thing?
Do I see going to church as afrustration or do I see it as a
beautiful thing that I get to do?
And it all depends on who's thecenter of everything.
If it's you, you will seeeverything as a frustration,
(44:28):
because it's stuff that you haveto do and you hate that.
Or you see it as God has givenme these wonderful gifts to
remind me who I am, who he isand where rest is found.
Now it's a joy, yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Or you're condemning yourself because you can't do it
Amen and you feel like you needto fix something, but you can't
fix it.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
So, therefore, you condemn yourself.
Yep, that's the other side ofit.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Thanks guys, all right, man hey everybody.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Find your rest in your life Awesome.
Thanks for being here bud.
Have a good week, everybody.
All right?
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Catch you all next time.
Hey guys, welcome to Navigate.
Hi Justin, hey buddy, Welcomeback again.
You look fabulous.
Thank you, we are on a roll.
You know why?
Give me some butter?
Because we've gone two in a row, justin.
Oh my gosh, we're getting itdone, we're doing it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It was the glory of Thanksgiving Tim it was.
That has given us the specialpower and ability to stay on a
roll.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Speaking of bellies of power, we have Josiah with us
.
Oh yeah, it's good to be back.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
What is up, josie?
What's up buddy?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
What's up guys?
You only come on the podcastwhen Justin's here.
I kind of feel a little hurtfulabout that.
That's a fair point.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
I mean, I think, it was a long time ago.
I was in a couple like when wewere doing like the mini-divos.
Oh, yeah, you brought me in onlike two of those.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah, I kind of miss those.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Back in the day.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Back in the day.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I'll tell you what.
The next time I'm out, grabthis guy, throw him in, give him
a weird topic like I don't know, something like menstrual laws
or something you know, justthrow a weird one out and be
like listen, josiah, you reallyneed to explain to me.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
The stuff you guys find fascinating in the Bible is
way different than me, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
There's a story in Deuteronomy about this girl who
tries to break up a fight, endsup getting her hand cut off.
Explain to me why that happens.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I'm sorry, some of you are going to look that up
and find out what that's allabout.
It's a real thing somehow, yeah, anyways, let's continue this
series of commandments.
Okay, yeah, let's go.
We're doing the fourth one,which is keep the Sabbath holy,
and prior to recording this, wewere talking, we kind of did one
back in.
Was it March?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, we were doing one on rest.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, so the Sabbath came up a lot, so there might be
a lot of stuff that maybe comesback.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm assuming there will be some overlap a little
bit.
Yeah, that's okay.
That's fine, tim.
You know what I think about.
What I think about Sabbath,though, was when you were
working at.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
DFC back in the day.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, and you had that.
What was it like?
10 o'.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Okay, yeah he was asking to speak to somebody and
I said well, there's nobody here.
He's like well, who are you?
I'm like I'm just themaintenance guy.
He's like oh, so you're notanybody important I need to talk
to.
Literally said important totalk to.
Wow.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Thanks, bud, and he's like that's all I needed to
know and just left.
But now I know what the fourthcommandment is from the rest of
my life because of that one dude.
It was an angel.
Angel or not, you never forgetit, never forget it.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
And he walked among us.
If it was an angel, he was aprick.
When I'm dead, in eternity, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Tim, that's the point You're saying.
I hope I don't meet him again.
Maybe that's the wrong way tothink about it.
I don't know.
I have a lot of stories fromworking back scenes in a church.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I wonder if people let him into their church based
on a set of specific questionsthat he can either answer or not
answer.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It was wild, I don't know it was very strange, very
rude, that's pretty wild.
I don't know it was verystrange, very rude, that's
pretty wild.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
It's like that false piety dude just walking around
and critiquing every church yeah, he gets his jolly he's not
serving or doing anything, butfeels validated by telling
everybody else what they're notdoing.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well enough.
Especially at 10 o'clock atnight, when after hours, all I'm
saying is, those who don't willalways validate themselves by
criticizing those who do willalways validate themselves by
criticizing those who do.
So if you're somebody who istrying and working hard to do
things and you're gettingcritiqued from people, just be
reminded.
98% of those people, theirwhole existence.
(03:34):
They feel validated by lookingat you and feel better about not
doing anything because they canpoint at people who haven't
done it exactly right.
And there's a lot of that inour world today in general.
In fact, I feel like somepeople's whole ministry is built
on that.
You know what I mean.
You get, oh geez, I don't wantto name drop here, or else I'm
(03:56):
doing the same thing.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
There are some people .
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I remember reading an article from Pulpit and Penn
one time it was his blog andtheir whole goal in life is just
to wreck people that they don'tlike.
And I just remember thinking Iwill never be this person, I'm
not going to do this.
Like your whole thing isfinding some weird nuance or a
word somebody used the wrong wayand then just lighting them up,
and I'm like there's a verydark place in hell for people
(04:23):
like you.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Just calling everybody a heretic.
That's what Jesus said to thePharisees, right yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
you love to load heaps on people's backs.
You won't lift a finger to helpthem, right?
So listen?
If you listen to this podcastand we're throwing this out here
, we haven't even gotten to thecontent today.
There will be no rest for you.
If you love to critiqueeverybody else, you're
constantly mad at your church.
You're probably not serving,not helping and not bought into
(04:50):
what's actually going on.
Find a place either whereyou're going to do that or stop.
Yeah, Okay, Throwing it outthere.
That's for free.
Awesome, You're welcome.
You're welcome for that.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
All right.
Well, back to the subjectmatter here.
The Sabbath.
I'm actually more curious.
Why was this a necessarycommandment that God had to give
his people.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Why are any of them necessary, Tim?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I could ask that question with all of them really
, but I want to lead with thatone.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I think the Sabbath law, at least just from a
functional standpoint,functional standpoint is written
into the fabric of existenceand what God commands as a
eschatological reality and as areality built into the fabric of
who we are as insufficientpeople.
(05:37):
So, to sum this up, the Sabbathis commanded by God to remind
you, as an individual, that youare not enough.
This is like a okay, here's aninteresting thing to think about
.
Okay, why do you have to eat?
Anybody ever been frustrated byhunger?
Yeah, like, why is this a thing?
(05:59):
Why did God make like?
These are the things that hit mewhen I'm on the pillow at like
11 pm, the pillow thoughts, andI'm like trying to close my eyes
and you've seen the meme before.
And your brain is like hey,what happens if Pinocchio says
my nose is going to grow?
You know what I mean.
And then you got to decide inthat moment Is it a lie?
Is it not a lie?
Does his head just explode?
(06:26):
One of these things, ultimately,is like why do you have to eat
food?
Well, god created you in such away that you would have to
remember that you are dependenton things that are
non-negotiables, and if youdon't do this, you will
literally die, and it can eitherbe a great joy to you, it can,
or it can be a great frustrationto you.
Depends on how you want to viewit and how you want to live
your life Right.
The, the lazy man, finds food ajoy and also a terror, because
(06:48):
he does not want to work toactually create the kind of food
and enjoy the thing that he'smeant to have.
It's frustrating to him.
All right, there's otherelements of this that I could
get into.
Like there's just one afteranother.
Why do we require this?
Why is humans, are we so needy?
And why is humans, are we soquick to think that we're not
(07:13):
needy at all and everyone elseis Um?
I think the Sabbath representsfor all of us this great
reminder that we cannot find umor be sustained in who we are
apart from reliance on Godhimself.
And if this commandment isn'there, we become, let's say,
(07:33):
ostensibly self-sufficient andtotally fine without God.
How's that?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Does that sum it up?
Well, take your best shot atout of Josie.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
I would just piggyback onto there that it's
the very essence of the gospel,because man's dependence upon
himself and his own ability iswhat's being stripped away.
When it comes to the Sabbath,you rest because God's the one
who actually has control ofeverything in your life.
(08:03):
It is not your job, it is notyour efforts, it is not your
efforts, it is not how much foodyou stored up, it's not all X,
y and Z, all these differentthings that you've done in your
life.
What you're becoming dependenton when you have to take a day
of rest is that God's the onethat makes the world go round,
and I think that is the veryfabric and essence of the gospel
in and of itself.
And so, yeah, I mean it'sfundamental to the
(08:25):
creator-creature distinctionthat we are God's creatures and
the fallenness of man is hisattempt to become God.
Therefore, the Sabbath wasabsolutely necessary to remind
us of our creatureliness and whoGod is as creator.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Okay, so, but the Sabbath, as we view it now, is
like one day a week, usuallywith Sundays right.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
No no.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
You don't consider Sunday Sabbath?
No, why not?
A lot of people do, do you?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
consider Sunday Sabbath.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
I would say that I mean, that's what I was brought
up to believe anyway.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
The.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Sabbath was also a day of worship and rest in the
Lord.
I think that you're shown inthe New Covenant that ministry
is even allowed on that day.
So I would say the Lord's Daywould be rightfully the new
Sabbath.
What's the Lord's Day?
The Lord's Day Sunday asopposed to Saturday.
(09:22):
That's inaugurated because ofChrist's resurrection.
Oh, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So normally a Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar and
Sabbath is on Saturday, andthen we celebrate the Lord's day
on Sunday because it was aresurrection day.
So I would say that the Sabbathlet's say as a functional,
let's say rigid principle oftaking Saturday off.
(09:46):
You know, in Israel, like theelevators, you can't press a
button so they don't run onSaturdays.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Really.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Literally straight up .
Wow, you're not allowed to flipa light switch on Saturdays.
Like they are dead seriousabout some of this stuff.
It blows my mind.
Those regulatory principlesaround Sabbath, I would say, are
transmuted to the heavenlies.
Christ, let's say, fulfilledthose in the law and I would say
that the Sabbath for us now isa principle that we follow, not
(10:18):
a practice that's as rigid onthat particular day.
In fact, I would say that Idon't celebrate the Sabbath in
this sense as I read it in thecommandment.
I would say I celebrate theSabbath in Christ and there's
principles about the Sabbaththat are applied to the Lord's
day, which is resurrectionSunday.
If you think about the Sabbathbeing put into place, it was
(10:40):
this where the final day, theultimate last day, is a day of
rest, right, and then after thatday of rest is a new day.
If you think about Christcoming, it represents our final
rest has come and now we'rebeginning to celebrate something
(11:01):
new, a new creation, a new daythat begins after the fullness
of what was accomplished.
So, now that Christ has come, Iwould say the Lord's day for us
does not.
It resembles Sabbath, but isnot the ultimate Sabbath,
because Christ is our Sabbathhe's our rest.
Okay, interesting, kind of awild ride there.
Now listen, there's a lot ofink that has been spilled on
this particular topic.
Like some people, aggressiveSabbatarians they're like heck.
(11:23):
No, if you mow your lawn on aSunday and you don't attend
church, there's a good chanceyou're going to be under church
discipline for abusing theSabbath.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Well, the Pharisees went to Jesus too about working,
doing stuff on the Sabbath.
Oh yeah, he called them out forit too.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, well, he told them I'm allowed to heal people
on the Sabbath.
Yeah Right, the Sabbath wasmade for you, not you for the
Sabbath, Like his whole point.
Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Oh, sorry, no, I'm sorry, sorry to cut in here, but
I mean it's for good deeds too.
It's not that good deeds wereliquidated, I mean Jesus' old
parable of the man who.
What is it?
What's the parable that he usesof the analogy of?
What is it the donkey?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
The donkey in the well.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
The donkey in the well and helping your neighbor.
I mean it still was.
I mean they went so far withthe Mishnah and all these other
laws that they began to be sohypercritical about this that
you couldn't do anything butJesus.
I think a huge thrust of whathe's trying to show them is that
, look, because of yourtraditions, you added all this
stuff onto there, but by no waywas the Sabbath meant to exclude
(12:27):
good deeds from happening Right.
Otherwise you'd be disobeyingthe law because you'd see your
neighbor in need and the lawrequires you to assist your
neighbor and if you fail to doso, you're basically an
accomplice if somebody'sattacking them.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
You miss the point of the Sabbath, you miss the point
of the rules.
You put the cart before thehorse.
Yeah.
So, like Isaiah 58, I'd love tobring up when we talk about
Sabbaths.
If you turn back your foot fromthe Sabbath, from doing your
pleasure on my holy day, andcall the Sabbath a delight and
the holy day of the Lordhonorable, if you honor it, not
going your own way or seekingyour own pleasures or talking
(13:01):
idly, then you shall takedelight in the Lord and I will
make you right on the heights ofthe earth.
I will feed you with theheritage of your father, jacob,
for the mouth of the Lord hasspoken.
This passage is really makingthe point.
Hey, the Sabbath is not aboutyou, it's not a day of self-care
.
You know?
Help me out.
Is it self-care?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Self-help?
Yeah, it's not a self-help day.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
It's not about that.
It's about prioritizing theLord.
It's about resting in him anddoing the things that he has
asked you to do, instead of thethings that you think you're
supposed to do.
So if your idea of Sabbath iseating hot dogs, watching ball
games, playing a stupid game youlike to play, or whatever,
making it all about resting, Ithink you're actually missing
(13:42):
the substance of it.
Now, rest is certainly a partof it, but it's maybe a
different kind of rest than whatwe think about.
When we think about rest, wethink about self-care, and I
just I don't think that's theessence of what it's actually
(14:02):
trying to get at, and it framesit a couple of different ways.
So Deuteronomy frames theSabbath in the, let's say, the
redemption of the Israelitepeople, them being taken out of
Egypt and brought into thepromised land, and he basically
says hey, take the Sabbath as areminder, because God is the one
who brought you out of Egyptand took care of you.
So everybody in your land needsto take this day and remember
that God is the one who savedyou.
(14:23):
You can't do it on your own.
He's got you.
Take the day to remember that.
In Exodus, he actually frames ita little bit differently.
He frames it in creation andsays because God rested on this
day, you need to do so as well.
And it's kind of a twofoldreminder.
One, you need to do thisbecause God modeled it for you
first, and if he's telling youto do this, you need to do this.
(14:43):
Secondly, he's making the pointthat, hey, god is telling you
you need to rest because he'sactually the one that's going to
take care of you.
In both senses it's a referenceto what God has done and your
need to, like, chill out,breathe out and focus on him and
what he has done.
And then obedience to what hehas called you to do.
Those are big deals, but bothof them are kind of
communicating at least basicallythe same substance of reliance
(15:07):
on God and what he has told youinstead of what you think you
need to get done this particularday.
And let's let's be honest,we're kind of addicted to work,
but we're also addicted toentertainment, which makes us
feel more exhausted and busythan we actually are.
Yeah, now, wouldn't you agreewith that, like?
we totally agree, we had a lotgoing on, but sometimes our
weariness and exhaustion is ourown fault because we've just
been death scrolling or doingwhatever other weird nonsense we
(15:30):
didn't need to do.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
I think rest for me has and this is a part of
delusion I have is I finally getto do the things that I want to
do and I get two, three hoursor whatever it might be.
I finally get to read this bookor play this game or watch this
movie with no interruptions.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, yeah, it rarely feels restful either.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah, it's enjoyable, worthless.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Honestly, it's the difference between something
being enjoyable and it beingrestful maybe.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
What's fascinating is that you I mean even I was
talking to Pastor Matt a whileago and he even talked about the
culture in Europe and howthey're able to just relax and
everybody has a pretty slow lifeIn the United States we have a
totally different culture.
We have a culture, as RushJuney would call it, a culture
of insomnia, A culture where youcannot rest, you cannot sleep,
(16:21):
and even when you are resting,you are finding entertainment
and you're doing things.
And I think what's fascinatingis ultimately that the heart
condition behind that is a heartthat doesn't want to be left to
itself, because then it's goingto tear itself to pieces or
really feel the guilt and theweight of what it's done.
I mean, this goes all the wayback to.
You know, I keep thinking ofRush Dooney's comments on this
(16:45):
from the Institutes of BiblicalLaw, but what he talked about
was that wicked people, peoplewho are evil, they cannot rest.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
You're saying there's no rest for the wicked.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
There is no rest for the wicked.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
You can put it that way.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
But yeah, there's no rest for the wicked, and he
talks about how every otherreligion.
I mean, if your entire systemis man-centered, then the world
goes around because of you.
Everything's dependent upon you, and when you decide to navel,
gaze at yourself, you're goingto be disappointed with yourself
.
I mean, this goes back to whatyou brought up in the beginning
with sufficiency.
We are insufficient, and sowhen, if I sit there and I'm
(17:24):
supposed to rest and all I canmeditate on is my
insufficiencies, it's going tomake me miserable.
In fact, I cannot rest.
I'm incapable of it because I'mnot looking to the thing that
is sufficient, that actuallygives me peace.
Because I have no peace, thewicked don't have peace.
Then comes the distractionsthat we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Think about this in prayer.
This is a good principle foryou If you're thinking okay,
justin, I get what you'retalking about, this idea of rest
, but it's focused on God, butit's also like a time of peace.
If you're the kind of personwhen you pray, you got all these
anxieties and frustrations, andyou pray and you walk away and
you still have all thoseanxieties and frustrations.
(18:03):
You didn't like give thosethings to God or learn to focus
on helpful things.
You're just staying exhaustedand involved God in the process.
Yeah Right, sabbath is supposedto be like that.
That day is a day where you'reintentionally saying the angst
that I feel, the projects that Ithink I need to get done.
I'm intentionally laying thesethings aside and I'm going to
(18:25):
focus on the good things God hasdone and hand those things to
him and trust them with them,knowing that he actually has
them, not me.
Those things to him and trustthem with him, knowing that he
actually has them, not me.
And if I continue to carry theload on this day of rest that
I'm trying to take, or this timeof rest that God has given me,
instead of giving it to Christduring this time, what I am
saying is.
I know better than God does andI have to take care of this
(18:48):
because he won't.
That's the picture.
So prayer and this day ofSabbath if you want to call it
this, or this idea of Sabbath,are similar in this idea that
it's actually an intentionalremoving of the weight that you
have been carrying with regardsto what you need to do and what
you have to accomplish andputting those things on God and
(19:08):
saying he is my rest.
I'm going to put these thingsdown and when I acknowledge that
he is my rest, then I actuallyget rest myself.
But until I make that mentalshift, put these things on him
and allow myself to breathe outand trust him with those things,
I will not receive rest at all.
I can't because I'll continueto shoulder something that I'm
(19:28):
not supposed to.
This is the point of why I wassaying earlier.
This is really fulfilled inChrist.
If you are a Christian, christis now your rest.
All right, eschatologically,ultimately, soteriologically,
other big words.
At the end of all things,holiness is restored to us in a
(19:49):
unique way that we didn't havebefore, and I brought this up on
our other podcast.
We did on this, but reallyangst and weariness is a desire
for holiness that we have.
I want to be made holy.
I'm not Something's wrong,something is deficient,
something is off, and I have adesire for it to be put back
together.
And my weariness, my hunger,all those things like.
(20:10):
You realize this in heaven.
You're not going to be hungryanymore.
You're not going to need sleepanymore.
Why?
Because all of that's fulfilled.
I no longer have that.
Why?
Because I'm in the verypresence of Christ himself and
he sustains all.
And this is why, in like inRevelation, it says there's no
need for the sun anymore.
You don't need the sun, it'sgone.
Why?
Because Christ is our light,you know what I mean.
(20:30):
It's like well, you mean thebasic thing that's needed for
all of life and existence itself, the thing that gives us night
and day and all these things.
Yeah, you don't need that.
Why?
Because Jesus literally nowsustains all those.
What is that?
The restoration of holiness,the restoration of what you were
meant to have in the verybeginning, but even in a greater
sense than in Eden, because youhave transcended even the
(20:50):
bodies that they had at thatpoint into a resurrection body
which is even greater than whatthey had in the Edenic state.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
In my opinion, yeah, and if you cannot rest in God
now, like if you don't takeseriously the Sabbath and the
reality that you're meant torest in God and depend on what
he can do, then eternity isgoing to be terrible for you.
I mean the penultimate blessingof rest, I mean what history
ends in, is the ultimate restthat God has promised his people
.
If you can't rest now in him,the ramifications of that
(21:19):
eschatologically is pretty badfor you.
I mean because your life isstill about you.
You're independent.
You're basically saying I haveno need of God.
And this is why it's sointriguing, because when I came
to look at the Ten Commandments,this was always the one that
stuck out to me.
I'm like dude, why does thatmatter?
Like who cares?
Like even growing up, nobodyever really could describe to me
(21:40):
why the Sabbath matters.
In fact, most people would belike well, that doesn't apply to
us anymore.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
At all yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
But yet you know, the more that I've grown in
understanding the scriptures, isthat, just as you were saying,
soteriologically,eschatologically, I mean, it's
in the vein and fabric ofeverything that is Christianity.
Yeah, and so.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So if you thought about it this way, tim, you have
have no other gods before me.
Don't have any idols, don'ttake my name in vain or empty it
of its meaning, and rely on mein all things.
That, that's the picture thatyou have.
I am everything that you need,and you need something ongoing
in your life to remind you ofthat, lest you move away, float
(22:24):
away from that deep reality thatis supposed to be woven into
the fabric of all things.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, is the Sabbath still just a day then?
Cause it kind of like what youwere saying about Christ being
in you.
Now he is your rest.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
This is great dude, so let's talk about this, okay,
so think about it this way, timyou shall have no other gods
before me.
Is that something I do in a day?
Do what have no other godsbefore Yahweh, before Jesus?
Yeah, sure, is that something Ido a day of the week?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Every day, I would hope.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Okay, so you're saying that that is not
something that is, let's say,restricted to one particular day
.
Are there things that I do on?
specific days to reallyemphasize that and make sure my
heart is doing that.
Well, I would hope so.
I would hope so as well.
Right, I think what we'reseeing is, hey, the first table
of the law which is reallyfocused on this idea of
(23:16):
understanding my relationshipwith God.
Theology, anthropology, thatkind of what is my relationship
with God bleeds over into how Iactually live my life, whether
it's not stealing, not murdering, not committing adultery, not
lying All these different thingsare not a day of the week.
(23:37):
And I think the point is, whenwe look at the Sabbath, it was
something he instituted thatthey needed to have in an
ongoing way, built into thefabric of creation itself with
the way that God orchestratedthe week.
The six plus one, seven equalscompletion, the full number,
what it's supposed to be.
This idea bleeds over into itto help people understand
(23:57):
Sabbath is not just somethingyou do weekly, it's actually an
ongoing thing.
You need to practice with agreat emphasis on it in one
particular time to make sure youdo this.
So I do think, should everybodyhave a day where they are
resting 100%?
I think that is absolutely.
You should totally do that.
I think the commandment isfilled in Christ.
I think the principle stillexists for us today, which is
(24:17):
why most people would say theLord's day is our day to really
emphasize that and look at itand I would say, totally, that's
great.
I wouldn't necessarily call itthe Sabbath.
I would say the principle ofthe Sabbath is being used there
in that particular way.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
If I can just run through a text real quick, just
Colossians, chapter two, verses16 through 17.
I can just run through a textreal quick, just Colossians 2,
verses 16 through 17.
Ironically enough, justin and Iused this when we met with a
church of Sabbatarians who werepicketing outside of our church
and we had a debate with them.
And what did we do?
We almost convinced one of themto join us.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, they ran off because they were like he's like
stop convincing the people Ibrought with me oh, it was funny
.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
But Colossians 2.16, verse 17, is really where we get
the transposition, you can say,of this law.
Therefore, let no one passjudgment on you in questions of
food and drink or with regard toa festival or a new moon or a
Sabbath.
These are a shadow of thethings to come, but the
substance belongs to Christ andreally what the distinction here
(25:25):
is is that we have function andform going on here.
The outward expression haschanged of the Sabbath.
Christ is that outwardexpression for us now, but the
function, the essence of thesabbatical laws still apply to
us very much so.
So, just as you're saying, wecan observe a different day,
people can choose a differentform in which they practice this
, but the function of it, theessence of it, still needs to be
the same.
And just real quick, if at somepoint we can talk about the
(25:48):
ramifications of us abandoningsabbatical practices just beyond
individuality.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Dude dive in Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I'm just going to jump into it.
I think that we have a societythat is built that is completely
man-centered now to where youcannot stop a plant from running
nonstop.
We have built an entire systemthat is so dependent upon man
that nobody can actually restand take a day off.
And it's quite fascinatingbecause what you saw with Israel
(26:17):
is that, because the Sabbathwas so ingrained in their
society, they could take a yearoff where they would not have to
cultivate the land.
The sabbatical laws extended tothe earth as well.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, Literally whole patches of ground.
They're like it gets a SabbathIn the seventh year, the
sabbatical year.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
They were meant to leave the ground alone so they
could recultivate.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Do you know there's a big concern about this right
now.
Yeah, there's a massive concernabout ground itself.
We are using, let's say,grounds that are being farmed to
their extent, we're not givingthem any time to recover and
they're seriously concerned thatin the years to come we're
actually going to have a massivedeficit in food because we're
not allowing the ground to restWow, going to have a massive
(26:57):
deficit in food because we'renot allowing the ground to rest
Wow.
So interesting to me, likethere's just a natural
implication there of not doingit.
And the same way that you don'tsleep, you start hallucinating
and turn into a jerk.
You know what I mean, andactually end up dying if you
don't sleep long enough.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
It could kill you.
There's huge ramifications.
I mean, the seventh year, too,would also influence debts.
Seventh year, too, would alsoinfluence debts.
So, like you in other places ofthe laws and the case laws, you
were not allowed to go intoloans.
You weren't allowed to entrustthe example, the case that's
(27:32):
given, is a homeless manentrusting his coat to someone
else, and the reason he was notallowed to go into that kind of
debt is because it threatenedhis very livelihood.
So, with regards to peopleentering into loans, where, if
you couldn't pay off the loanand you went bankrupt, if all of
your assets would be liquidatedby the amount that you are in
debt, that's a wicked loan,that's usury, as the Bible would
(27:54):
call it.
But what's fascinating is thatthe sabbatical laws also
protected you from debt becausepeople you couldn't go into a
loan that would be with you therest of your life, to where you
would basically, by biblicalstandards, be considered
enslaved by the amount.
So in the seventh year, yourdebts were paid off, your debts
were freed, and so obviouslythere's a picture of forgiveness
(28:15):
as well and a picture of thegospel.
But just think about how, if wewere to implement these things
into society, even into thesystem in which we run, every
seven years all the debts wouldbe forgiven.
I mean it would change the waythat we live.
I mean you're talking about asociety that would be, so you
could say, self-sufficient tothe degree to where we actually
design our industry, to where wecan let it be for a while and
(28:41):
then we can actually recover.
We make a more self-sustainablesystem because we're not only
trusting in God to run thingsand to run the earth as he has,
but also the ability for societyto be at rest and to be at
peace and take a step back fromdestroying the land.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Really easy to abuse, though, too, like if I knew my
debts were going to be at restand to be at peace and take a
step back from destroying theland.
It's really easy to abuse,though, too, like if I knew my
debts were going to be paid inseven years and I just rack up
as much as I could.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, that's the thing is you wouldn't be allowed
to, because people, if theyknew the seventh year is coming
here's where you're at would notgive you a loan, because they
also would not want to forgive aton of debt on purpose.
So it made people have to becareful about what they were
asking for, when they wereasking for it and be more
thoughtful so that they'reactually paying attention to
their life and what they weredoing and how they were living.
And then, when they were bigmistakes made, somebody ran on
(29:28):
really hard times.
There was a drought in theselast two years.
If that seventh year hit, therewas a forgiveness portion of it
too, where it's like we'regoing to start fresh, and I
think it really was a wonderfulway to think about how we should
do life.
So, yeah, so if you get into thecivil aspect of the law itself
and how these things should beapplied to society states, all
(29:48):
these things, I wouldn't say, oh, the Sabbath is just, it's just
a spiritual thing.
No, there's implications thatgo across all kinds of things in
society that we would want toimplement in a very literal way
to honor God and what we'redoing, but ultimately it's a
representation and a picture ofChrist and our ultimate rest in
Him.
But I love that you broughtthat up, because there's a lot
of implication about how thatwould play out in a society
(30:10):
today and how it would actuallymake things a lot better than
where they're actually atcurrently.
Now, can I bring something upabout that?
Oh, josie, do you havesomething else you want to say?
Speaker 3 (30:19):
The last thing I would add is that, again, I'm
not saying here that we wouldone-to-one implement it, just
like Israel had it.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
General equity.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah, general equity the form, the spirit of it, the
essence of it is an extremelywise principle and it's built
into the very fabric of creation.
That's why over-cultivating thesoil that you have destroys it
and why we just discussed,obviously, that we're looking at
droughts and crop issues movingforward into the future, but
(30:49):
it's built into the fabric ofcreation and every single
biblical principle that Godgives us.
There is a depth of wisdomthere that I do not think that
we have expounded from thescriptures, and I think it would
be very wise for us to continueto look at the ramifications of
these laws and how they wouldactually affect our society
today.
And I would argue better, oursociety today.
(31:10):
But go ahead.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
No, no, no.
That's super good man, I lovethis.
So that's super good man, Ilove this.
I'm going to throw somethingout here, too, with regard to
Sabbath and our tendency tooverdo it or not rely on God or
be ongoing to the point wherewe're draining the ground of its
nutrients because we just won'tgive things a rest.
This is Edmund Burke.
Men are qualified for civilliberty in exact proportion to
(31:31):
their disposition to put moralchains upon their own appetites.
Disposition to put moral chainsupon their own appetites Okay.
In proportion as their love tojustice is above the rapacity.
In proportion is theirsoundness and sobriety of
understanding is above theirvanity and presumption.
In proportion as they are moredisposed to listen to the
counsels of the wise and good inpreference to the flattery of
(31:52):
knaves.
Society cannot exist unless acontrolling power upon will and
appetite be placed somewhere,and the less of it there is
within, the more there must bewithout.
This means that the more thereis within a person, the less
chains you need.
The less there is within aperson, the more chains you need
.
It is ordained in the eternalconstitution of things that men
(32:15):
of intemperate minds cannot befree.
Their passions forge theirfetters.
His point is, if you don't havea regulative principle strong
inside of you, then you will bemade a slave by the reality of
things outside of you.
If you have a strong desire tocontrol yourself and live in
(32:36):
discipline and rely on God, letthe ground rest, put down the
work for the day, quit doingthis, then you will find in the
eternal nature of thingsthemselves.
They will make you rest, theywill make you sit, they will
make you lie down.
I bring it up in Psalm 23.
He makes me lie down in creampastures because if I can't lie
down on my own, he will make medo it.
(32:56):
You'll get sick, you'll getsomething will go wrong.
It is built into the fabric ofreality that Sabbath is a
necessity.
And to your point, you begin tosee how we're unable in our
society today to do rest.
We don't know how and we'vereplaced rest with self-help
because we think distraction isbetter than actual peace.
(33:18):
And this is ultimately becauseif Christ is your rest, then
he's at the center of everythingand you actually know how to
put some things away and hangout and focus on what actually
matters and do the right things.
In our society we don't haveChrist at the center.
Who's at the center?
We are so.
What do I worship on Sabbath,now, when it becomes necessary
myself?
It's entertainment.
It's at the center.
We are so.
What do I worship on Sabbath,now, when it becomes necessary
Myself?
(33:39):
It's entertainment, it'sself-help, it's those kinds of
things.
Yes, exactly so.
It's important.
So some people and I would putmyself in this category suck at
putting work away.
Not good at it.
I talk to my wife about it allthe time.
I have to downshift, like witha distraction, oftentimes to get
myself to function the way thatI am supposed to and pay
(33:59):
attention to my kids, payattention to what's going on,
pay attention to my wife's heart, spend time in the world Like
I'm good at it Sometimes.
Sometimes I'm not good at it.
There is a large group of peoplein the United States that are
on the other side of thespectrum, who do not like work.
They don't like doing anything,and I would say it's really
(34:22):
important to notice what it saysin the beginning of this before
it gets to everything else.
It says six days you shalllabor and do all your work.
The seventh day you rest.
So at least one large portionof this commandment is telling
people you need to work six days, do something, you're working,
you're doing stuff, and it'sfunny to me because even in our
culture we do well.
Five days of work, two days I'moff, and actually the Bible is
(34:46):
saying well, at least one ofthose days that you're off from
your occupation.
If you live here in the States,and that's your Western world
and that's your flow, one ofthose days you're working at
home, you're doing stuff, you'recleaning, you're putting stuff
together.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
You're fixing things.
You still have thoseresponsibilities, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I think a lot of people punt on it, man.
Yeah, I mean, when it talksabout the sloth, especially in
Proverbs, it's like you go byhis house it looks like crap,
the fence is broken.
We are supposed to work, we'remade to work.
Work is not a bad thing, andI've read a lot of books on
(35:25):
Sabbath, even books like theRuthless Elimination of Hurry,
which I don't want to get into.
But the picture is, yes, weneed rest.
I would say we are an anxious,overworked society with a deep
hole and a desire for holiness,and we've replaced Christ with
ourself, and so we can't getrest and we're just turning
things up all the time and thebill comes due at some point and
it's not going to go well, andwe're distracting ourself with
entertainment from thedestruction that is going to
(35:48):
come if we don't get this undercontrol.
But there's a lot of people whodon't want to work, they don't
want to put time in.
They don't want to put time in,they don't want to do those
things, and they're constantlylooking for rest the rest of the
week, all the time, becausethey're constantly filling the
rest of their time withentertainment too.
You know what I mean, ordistraction, or other times.
Right, it's Thessalonians.
(36:08):
If a man doesn't work, he's notsupposed to eat.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I think of Nietzsche.
Normally I don't quote him, butit just brought a quote of his
to mind.
Under peaceful conditions, thewarlike man attacks himself.
And I'm like that is so true.
If you are at war in yourselfand you do not have the peace of
God, when you sit still and youhave that restful condition,
you have that time of rest.
You assault yourself, youassault your own mind.
(36:32):
There is no peace Again.
There is no rest for the wicked.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Totally, totally.
So.
What's a good practice, then,as a Christian?
If Sabbath is something webring with us every day, what
are some moments in our liveswe'd be like okay time to chill,
I would say, not withdistraction, like we've been
talking about either, butsomething that's actually godly
rest.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yeah, as far as godly rest goes, I think, first off,
sleeping is good.
You get a lot of sleep.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
You're not going to be helped anybody if you're just
continually tired, wouldn't yousay, if you suck at sleeping,
it's because you're not trustingGod?
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Yeah, you're not trusting God.
The wicked cannot sleep becausehe is staying up thinking about
all the things that he has todo and how he has to keep the
world spinning.
The Christian can, because theChristian's like you know.
God, you're sovereign,everything's in your hand.
I can actually rest mentallyand putting yourself in that
mindset.
I think it's an intentionalityto meditate on what's good, to
(37:27):
focus your mind on God'sabilities and not your
inabilities.
If you're focusing on yourinabilities, there's no rest and
you're tormented.
But if you're focusing on theabilities and how big your God
is, it puts your heart at restbecause you realize how powerful
he is.
I mean, you can always JarredNeal, pastor Jared Neal.
At this point he said somethingso profound that really changed
(37:49):
the course of my life.
He's like you can always askthe question what if?
And just him saying that, whatif I did this?
What if I did that?
What if I had a different wife?
What if I have, you know, adifferent job?
You can always run down thatrabbit hole and the truth is
that you're actually trying todetermine your future.
You are trying to be the God ofyour own destiny, divine your
future.
Yeah, exactly.
(38:10):
And so when you think that wayit's unhealthy.
There's an intentionality tosay no, it's not about what.
If it is, what has God done?
What will God do?
Who is my God?
And that is what truly is goingto give you rest, I think, from
that mindset.
That is then how you catapultinto everything else that you
would do to honor God Worshipobviously praising the Lord,
(38:31):
turning on some worship musicand praising him, focusing your
mind on him, spending aridiculous amount of time in
prayer and that doesn't meanjust like I got to be saying
something constantly and keepasking God for stuff.
Sit in the silence, sit in thesilence.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
That's so good, I think, yeah, getting good at
shutting your mind off for aminute and I don't mean by
filling it with something else,I mean get your brain to shut up
.
God speaks in the discipline ofsilence.
He does.
That's good.
I also want to touch oncovenant renewal, just briefly,
okay, and I'm not going to getinto all the implications of
(39:08):
that, because there's a wholeworld that we could get into.
There is something special thathappens when you put aside
everything else that you'redoing and you come together with
the covenant people of God andyou praise and you worship the
Lord together.
God not salvific grace from God, but a very real grace from God
(39:32):
that is given to those who taketime to worship in the covenant
community that you cannot findin entertainment or vacation or
whatever else you think yourweekend is for.
When you come together with thecovenant people of God and
(39:53):
worship and praise the Lordtogether and serve the body of
Christ and love one another anddo relationship with each other
the way that we're supposed to,something special happens when
you do that with your family.
It's a beautiful thing thatproduces rest in you in a way
that other things don't.
Most people think I'm going torest by getting away to the
(40:14):
mountains.
I'm going to rest by going toMoab.
I'm going to rest by gettingaway to the mountains.
I'm going to rest by going toMoab.
I'm going to rest by takingthis cruise.
And what you're talking aboutusually is more of a type of
entertainment and distractionthan a focusing on who your rest
actually is.
And I'm telling you, when youdo that, you're putting yourself
in the center of what will giveyou rest instead of Christ, who
(40:35):
is your rest in the center ofyour life.
And so when I talk about thisidea of covenant renewal is what
I mean is hey, god made acovenant with you and said
listen, I'm going to be your God, you be my people, I will be
your rest, I'll care for you, orI'll take care of you.
When you come back togetherwith the covenant people of God
and pray and renew your heartand remind yourself who he is
(40:56):
and receive communion orwhatever that looks like, what
you're doing is renewing thereality that God said I got you,
I'll take care of you, I willbe your rest.
And I would just tell you onyour weekends that one of the
best things that you can do isworship together on the Lord's
day, restore your heart, get toa place where you're actually
resting in Christ and allowinghim to be the fullness of what
(41:18):
he's supposed to be for you.
And we punt on it all the time.
We dodge that we think it's abox to check, not an infusion of
grace, and I really think it is.
I think people punt on that alot and so I would say, yeah, do
that, like go worship together,praise the Lord, make a point
of that and do it with otherpeople.
And I would even add to thatthere's a tendency for us, when
(41:40):
we think about rest, to thinkabout isolation and not
community.
And I would say, actually restis found with the people of God,
doing covenant things of Godunder the authority of God, in
the presence of God, like that'sa good thing that you want to
do.
And when we think about rest, wetend to think about get away
from everybody else, need to beby myself.
Give me a game, give me awhatever I'm like.
(42:01):
Look, I'm not againstentertainment, have fun.
Look, I'll pop open Skyrim oncein a while still, and I'll get
after it.
Nothing wrong with that, go forit.
I do think.
But that's not necessarily whereyour rest is.
And you need to know your restis.
And you need to know your restultimately is with the people of
God in the presence of God,worshiping our glorious God.
And how do I know this?
(42:22):
Why would I say this?
Well, because, ultimately, yourfinal rest is that.
So, if you want to know, hey,what is rest actually?
How does this end?
Well, in the presence of God,with the people of God
worshiping the Lord Christhimself.
And so if you want a picture ofthat now and how do I tap into
that now, go to church, be withthe people of the Lord, open the
(42:43):
book, worship and praise himnow, because that's a part of
how that is going to be absorbed, taken into your spirit,
refreshing you in this momentbefore you get to that final
resting place.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
One thing that I would like to tag on here would
be, along with bringing peoplein and worshiping communally
before God as the bride ofChrist, something else we've
lost in society is, I think,feasting and festivals Like we
cannot.
If we have an event, it needsto last X amount of time.
It needs to be like an hour,two hours even.
(43:14):
You know, I just recently gotmarried and we were, like, you
know, half an hour for this,half an hour for this, and when
you look at what they did in theBible, I mean they were
feasting for weeks.
And I'm like dude we're on theprecipice of Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
How come Thanksgiving isn't a week?
I know dude.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Well, I would argue for it to be all the way up
until Christmas, and then we one.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
And we feasted all over again.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
I love the concept of feasting and I think that we've
really lost our heart with that.
I think these Sabbaths are notthese melancholy days where you
get up and you put on sackclothand ashes and you go before the
Lord and you're really downcast.
These are meant to be days andtimes of joy and happiness, and
(43:56):
that's the point, and I thinkfestivals are a great expression
of Lord.
This is everything you've givenme Good drink, good food, good
friends and we're here togetherand we are worshiping and we are
centering our hearts on theLord.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Well, that's the difference between.
Do I see having to eat food asa frustration or do I see it as
a glorious good that God hasgiven to me?
The rest is the same thing.
Do I see it as a frustration oras a good thing?
Do I see going to church as afrustration or do I see it as a
beautiful thing that I get to do?
And it all depends on who's thecenter of everything.
If it's you, you will seeeverything as a frustration,
(44:28):
because it's stuff that you haveto do and you hate that.
Or you see it as God has givenme these wonderful gifts to
remind me who I am, who he isand where rest is found.
Now it's a joy, yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Or you're condemning yourself because you can't do it
Amen and you feel like you needto fix something, but you can't
fix it.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
So, therefore, you condemn yourself.
Yep, that's the other side ofit.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Thanks guys, all right, man hey everybody.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Find your rest in your life Awesome.
Thanks for being here bud.
Have a good week, everybody.
All right?
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Catch you all next time.
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