Grapes, Grifts, and Gavel

As a holiday treat, Whitney had the opportunity to sit down and chat with Amanda of Wine & Crime and Javier of PRETEND. In a podcasters on podcasters style convo, the three talk about true crime, podcasting as a whole and their dream team!

Check out Javier and Amanda wherever you get your podcasts!

Javier Leiva - PRETEND, Criminal Conduct, Ponzi Playbook
https://open.spotify.com/show/2vaCjR7UvlN9aTIzW6kNCo

Amanda Jacobson - Wine & Crime 
https://open.spotify.com/show/5OeKXVPomhbejM9v7CDqxJ?si=4451247ce3704a0a

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Javier Leva with the Pretend Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm Whitney Saint Andre with Navigating Advocacy, and.

Speaker 3 (00:05):
I'm Amanda Jacobson with Whining Crime.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
And if you don't recognize some of these voices, it's
because we are three badass podcasts simul casting on our
own feeds to tell you about our show and kind
of go behind the scenes to see how we put
all these crazy shows together. And for some of you
who don't know, the podcast community, especially the indie true

(00:30):
crime podcast community, is a very very tight knit group.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
It is especially if you know Josh Hallmark, who was
the brilliant mind behind this idea to hook us all
up together and have us all meet both in person
over the years and now virtually and do a fun
little like true crime conversation crossover hangout.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, Josh is really the glue or the thread that
ties us all together.

Speaker 4 (00:58):
Yes, he's just so amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
It's like a pyramid scheme, Josh, he's at the top.
A lot of people just don't realize that all these
podcasts they're being, you know, like the puppet Master's accurate.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
He did tell me I have to find four people
to like complete my tier and then have them find
four people. Josh, I had no idea you were mlming us.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
I know.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
I am a proud owner of a pair of Lularoe leggings,
I will say, but.

Speaker 4 (01:28):
I bought the second hand, so then it doesn't count.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
It doesn't count, it doesn't count. Did you watch that
documentary Lula Rich?

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah? Yeah, that's great. Every time I watch a documentary
about a conn ardist like that, I'm like, I wish
I love it first, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
I love it. Did you watch Chimp Crazy on HBOO?

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, yes, it looks like Tiger King two.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
It is Whitney.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Hold on, have you recently watched The Kings of Tupelo.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
No, oh, I've heard it, scream.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
It's on Netflix and it is just as unhinged as
Tiger King.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Well, you're the second person to recommend that, so now
I gotta watch it.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yea, yeah, yeah, three episodes, so it's a quick it's
a quick beinge but yeah, well let's so what Oh.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
Yeah, oh I love that.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Awesome.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Okay, well good, I have the rest of my day schedule.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
So today what we want to do is really talk
about our origin stories, because these are three very different shows.
Very different shows and with different audiences. And I think
you guys are going to love to find out what
all these podcasts are about. So why don't we just started,
like with Whitney, tell me a little bit about your show,
because your show navigating advocacy. That's not what your show

(02:45):
was about at the beginning, right, So, like, how has
your show evolved like since since you started the whole thing?

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Well, we started as your typical true current podcast.

Speaker 4 (02:55):
In the pandemic.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
We had nothing to do, but my family isolated. My
best friend and co host, Melissa, her family isolated. But
we cheated the system a little bit where we'd have
Wednesday family dinners and all eight of us would get together.
We both have boys, two boys each from now eighteen
to nine, and so it was just a lot of
chaos all the time. Well, in the pandemic, we'd get

(03:16):
together Melissa I would sit at the dinner table and
talk about all the things we'd listen to. We read
all those things, and in full transparency and honesty, we
would day drink.

Speaker 4 (03:27):
Sometimes.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
Oh hell, I got I want to crime here, let's.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Go yep, I wanted to I talked to Melissa into
recording our conversations at one point and said, why don't
we just do our own podcast. If we're listening, let's
just record what we're talking about anyway, And she is
an introvert. She was really hesitant, but that day drinking
really helped me out there. So we created Cults, Crimes,
and Cabernet that used to be our name, and we

(03:51):
covered everything from cults to serial killers to suspicious deaths.
Anything that caught our attention we were covering. And both
of us are volunteer based people, so if there's something
that needs to be done, we're the first people to
sign up for it, whether that's our children's school, in
the community. That's just who we are as a person,
and when that was taken away in COVID, we were

(04:13):
trying to figure out a way to fulfill that need
within our own personalities. So we reached out to a
family in West Texas. It's in San Angelo, Texas, the
Brandon Lawson's family, and wanted to go out and see
where this man went missing, because if you listen to
Brandon's story on most podcasts, they talk about him disappearing

(04:35):
in woods, and there's not a lot of places in
Texas that have true woods. I mean there's like mesquite
trees and cacti and it's not wide.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Open spaces exactly.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
So we wanted to see what they were talking about.
And West Texas is a lot of desert, so it
didn't make sense to me.

Speaker 4 (04:53):
So we went out.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
There and being on that on that site and meeting
with the families. It really sh the way we started
consuming true crime and the way we started working with families.
And it was an evolution, like we just learned what
we were doing wasn't right or we felt it wasn't
right anymore because of the volunteer aspect of what we do,

(05:14):
so we rebranded we and it took a little while
for us because we really loved our name. I'm a
sucker for a good alliteration, you know, and we decided
to rebrand. That's when we became Navigating advocacy because we're
still learning. We're trying to learn the proper ways to
do things or ways to help in other ways and
learning about language and it's just this constant flow of

(05:37):
education and that's kind of where we're at now.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
That's such a cool thing about podcasting in general, is
that you know that's your baby. It evolves as you
evolve as people, and you know, the podcasts that see
some of the most success are the ones that bring
your unique, authentic selves into the show. And you know,
human beings are complex and we have the capacity to

(06:02):
change and to learn and to grow, and it's really
really cool to see your show like reflecting that process
along with you in real time. I think that that's
such a cool thing to model to the people that
listen as well, that like, at any point, you can
you can shift directions, you can shift gears, you can
get passionate about different things, you can find what connects
with you deeply and like follow that, follow that poll.

(06:26):
I think that's so fucking cool.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, and it's okay not to if you don't like,
if you don't feel that way, it's okay too. This
is just our journey that we're sharing with you.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah. And I think that the true crime landscape has
changed so much all what years did you guys start?
I started in twenty nineteen.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
Twenty twenty seventeen, Oh okay, yeah, Yeah, we launched right
after the first you know who win of the election. Yeah,
And our show, Winding Crime was very much like a
response to everything is garbage and our mental health is
in the shitter and guess what still is babes, But

(07:08):
I mean, yeah, it was. It's very similar Whitney, where
it's like best friends with a shared interest and a
love of a little bit of boozing and just diving
into stories that as consumers of true crime, we wanted
to focus on a short form. We're not serialized. We

(07:28):
know our limits and our skill set, and like, I
have so much respect for people who can build content
but also who just can do the intense research and investigation.
Like I always come back to Josh as an example
of this with True Crime Bullshit, where like the absolute mind, body,

(07:49):
and soul that goes into true crime bullshit and everything
that they've uncovered about Israel comeage. It's so much research
that their team is incredible, Like they go so deep,
and that is not my skill set. My skill set
is finding a story that I connect with, whether there
is maybe a humorous connection because we are we're true

(08:09):
crime comedy, which is like kind of a weird thing
to navigate and doesn't necessarily feel like they go together
and has been aligned to toe that is not always easy.
But where we bring in the comedy is really about
ourselves and like sharing our stories, and you know, you'll
be surprised at how many times you can connect to

(08:32):
either of course a victim, but also like a perpetrator
in some instances or some you know, element of what
you're talking about. And that's where we kind of bring
the comedy in or just find like these absurd stories that.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Right, yes, it's such a heavy topic.

Speaker 3 (08:46):
It's such a heavy topic, and we launched it such
a heavy time and then history just continues to repeat
itself that we really wanted to connect over like these
weird police blotters and weird articles that people send us
and talk about them without making the long form investment
that other phenomenal shows have made. So we're not serialized.

(09:08):
We do everything kind of episodic under a theme. So
we've covered really anything that you can think of, and
it's it's really been a wild journey and very fun.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
It's it's kind of interesting because this started off as
a hobby for me, like something that I was doing
on the week nights, you know, like if my kid
was in a game or like sporting thing or on
the weekend, you know, and now it's become my full
time job. Right, It is so crazy to see that transformation.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
I'm sure when did that shift? Like how far in
did that shift happen for each of you?

Speaker 1 (09:45):
It happened like three weeks ago for me, congratulations, I know,
but it was it wasn't completely voluntary. You know, I
had a full time job and yeah, that came to
an end.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
And now that was Lucy's journey. We all had full
time jobs and Lucy was actually laid off a few
years into the show and it aligned with you know,
the show picking up some good momentum and we were
able to shift. But like, that is a scary plunge.
I left my job.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
I was just laid off.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
It happens.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
It was crazy. Yeah, but this is like a like
go time, you know, like it's now or never, and
there's so much momentum and we have all built this
great community of you know, our listeners are very loyal
and oh admitted and why not, let's let's make this
thing go.

Speaker 3 (10:37):
You know, what about you, Whitney, When did that shift
for y'all?

Speaker 2 (10:41):
We shifted to full time podcasters probably a year and
a half in now. To be fair, we have super
supportive husbands that allow us to do this. It's not
that we've turned it into a full time career, meaning.

Speaker 4 (10:54):
Salaries are.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
But we were able to really transition into making this
our full time passion about a year and a half in.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
That's so exciting. It's it's awesome, but it really is,
like it is a scary plunge. And I feel like
we get questions a lot all the time from people
who listen to the show and are exploring podcasting for themselves,
and Lucy and I often we have like two things
that we will typically say. One is, don't do it.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
I know I always tell people to do it.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
But you know, that's kind of like my joke response.
I think that if you are passionate about something and
you feel like your voice will lend something to that arena,
then like, fuck yeah, do it. Go for it. But
if you are building it, if you're making your plan
to make money to have it be your full time job,

(11:52):
it's really really, really hard and it can happen.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
But it can happen, you're going to spend years trying
to years.

Speaker 3 (12:01):
Wining Crime was just us the host for you know,
the first four or five years of the show, while
we were pounding the pavement building the advertising base, like
and we're still independent now we do have help with
our ad sales, but like, we were doing all of
that in house, all of the social media, all of
the editing. I mean it was and we were also working.

(12:22):
So it was a true labor of love. And now
we're in a place, all of these years later where
we do have you know, we're a company, we have
a small staff, We're able to pay ourselves and our
team and like provide health insurance and some benefits. And
I'm not saying it to brag. I'm saying it because

(12:42):
it's it's rare, and it's hard, and it's terrifying because
then you get to a space where it's like, Okay,
I'm counting on me, my husband is counting on me,
my staff is counting on me.

Speaker 4 (12:58):
So pressure is different, is different.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
And so if you are thinking about podcasting, I just
we encourage you not to enter that space with like
a financial gain mindset.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
You're putting a lot more work into it than you're
getting back. And that's what you know. And nobody likes
commercials like commercials, but I don't either, But you know,
and and and the fact that some of our patrons
are helping us out. Like there's a lot of work
that goes into this. Like you said all these things
that we like for me, one new cost that I

(13:32):
was not expecting is like unprecedented legal bills, you know, like.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Oh my god, I just say, these.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Things don't come for free, and like we're doing this
full time, and so yeah, there's a lot of work
that comes into this, and like ads they help make that.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
We're like in the process of negotiating. Uh, I say
this in a very light term. We're not like going
to court, but a lawsuit for a photo that we
use that we sourced, but I guess they were not.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
I've had that happy too.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
Yeah, and the photo is funny because it is the
gravesite of a certain president's ex wife on a certain
golf course, and so of course it's like they're people
that are mad about it. So it's like, yeah, unexpected
costs are real. You have to be really careful about
how you are sourcing your information, and you know, Josh

(14:22):
has experienced this, like there's plagiarism in the community unfortunately,
and just being really really careful about how you navigate,
where you're getting your information, how you're presenting your information
and being really transparent about how you're sourcing your information
is also very key. You never know who is data

(14:42):
farming and trying to find where you fucked up and
then get a paycheck from it.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah. Oh man, there are so many vultures in this creer,
so many vultures.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
And they are picking at the corpses. Baby, I got
nothing left to give.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
So when we were were kind of planning this episode,
we were coming up with these fun things to talk about,
and we have this magical list of like prompts for us.
So I say, let's let's kick it off. Let's let's
do one. I think one that really resonated for us
was this idea of memorable first, Like what is the
first case that truly kept you up at night? Like

(15:23):
which is the one that haunts you? Because we've all
been there right where you're like, like you said, man
that last night, you were just staring at the ceiling, right.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
Yo, Whitney, go first, because I need, I need, I
got one.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
I got one too.

Speaker 4 (15:39):
Don't you go first? This time? You got first? This time?

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah? Because I was thinking about that one, and I
remember I was, Uh. I did the series called The
Pests and it was about these gangstalkers. This one guy
went on Twitter and he said that he did not
like he did not think Norm McDonald was funny and
such a I know it's like a hot take, but

(16:02):
it shouldn't snootball. Yeah, it snowballed into this crazy gang
stocking scenario where all these people were like like dogging
this guy. But then it turned into like they were
doxing him. Then they were swatted. They sent the police
to his house forty times. They swatted his house forty times,

(16:24):
so he would be woken up at night with guns
pointed to his head. I mean, like this was like
it just went so crazy and these people were so scary.
And so I put together these three episodes about the pests,
and my wife and I were like, I don't think
we should release these because we don't right exactly. And

(16:46):
so I was like, well, what if I just put
it out on Patreon, like they'll never find it, right,
So I released it on Patreon and I go on
vacation and I decided that I was just not going
to check my phone all the time. Good for not
a peak. And I realized that the pests found the
episodes on Patreon. They ripped it, they put it on
their dark web forum, and all hell broke lose and

(17:10):
I had that sinking feeling that like, oh.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
Shit, you know, did anything happen or actually.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
The pests really liked my reporting and it was great. Okay,
the crisis I've verded that's.

Speaker 4 (17:24):
The best case scenario there, I know.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
But I was really sweating that one.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
That's terrifying. And I mean you've got you've got a family.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Oh yeah, I mean well, and you're not just dealing
with one person. You're dealing with like a grounch of
anonymized like people that just have an extra grind. So yeah,
that was probably the sky. And I've done some pretty
scary stuff, but I mean I've been in a cult
and all that, but like, for some reason, that's the
one that really really freaked me out.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
We're going to circle back to be a well just
for a day, just for.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Just to get research infiltrated, you know, yeah, wow, exactly.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
Put a p in that.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
So this this question was really hard for me because
I grew up watching wildly inappropriate things like most of
us did that were born in the eighties and nineties.
I don't know, I don't want to age anyone here,
But I was born in the eighties, so I'm saying same.
We didn't really have rules when it came to like
what stuff we consumed. So I watched like the movie

(18:27):
seven at I want to say, like eight nine years old,
like wildly inappropriate, and there's none of that kind of
stuff kept me up at night. It didn't give me
nightmares or anything like that. So when I transitioned into
this world of true crime, there hasn't been one specific
case that keeps me up at night. I'm really good
at compartmentalizing the information, but I will stay up for

(18:51):
thinking I've disappointed someone with the story I've told.

Speaker 4 (18:55):
I worry a lot.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
About disappointing family members that we work with, because this
whole season we're exclusively working with family members on episodes.
I'm worried about putting out misinformation, like all of the
strange things related to true crime as opposed to the
actual details of a story. That's what keeps me up
at night is disappointing somewhere, right, Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
There are two for me. One I covered on our show,
and you know it's something that I'm also very passionate about.
Is I'm an abolitionist. I am not a fan of
the police personally, and so cases that include police violence

(19:40):
and like the targeting of black and brown people really
fucked me up. And we unfortunately, you know, Minneapolis is
where I live. And so every Filando Castile for many
years was kind of a household name, and then George
Floyd became a household name and real faces to a

(20:02):
revolution toward collective liberation. But one of I covered the
Falando Castile case, and this was a man who was
driving with his girlfriend and their baby in the car.
He was like a school lunch employee. He was just
like a lovely person. They got pulled over for a
tail light. He declared that he had his concealing carry,
that he had a weapon in the car, like he

(20:24):
followed every rule, and the officer opened fire on him
while he was sitting in the car getting his wallet
as he was asked to do to produce ID, and
he died in front of his girlfriend and child. And
his girlfriend, in a moment of power and quick thinking,
opened her Facebook and started live streaming what was happening.

(20:48):
And without her act of bravery, the police could easily
just own the narrative of what had happened there, and
as they often do, spun any reality that they saw
fit again. We saw this act of bravery repeated, and
we see it many times, like in the George Floyd case,
to be that brave to go live when you know

(21:14):
someone is is dying, and it's like the only way
that you can intervene in any way or at least
expose the truth. The cases like that just sit in
my heart in a way that I can't really explain.
I mean, it's just such, it's such injustice, and you know,
we're we're taught since we're children that like you're supposed

(21:36):
to be able to trust police and investigators, and you know,
it's like there's a level of betrayal and systemic violence
and systemic racism that it's just like this huge onion.
You just peel back these layers, and we feel so
small in terms of how do we make changes here?
How do we keep this from happening? And you know,

(21:58):
there are so many incredible people activists that are working
tirelessly to either abolish or at least completely reform these systems,
and I just think that that work is so important
and incredibly noble. So cases like that really stick with me.
And then one I don't even know if we have
fully covered this case because it's really been covered by

(22:21):
so many podcasts, but a specific sound bite associated with
the Delphi murders when the suspect tells them to like
go down the hill. That clip, that audio clip. I've
heard it twice, and it gives me fucking chills just

(22:42):
to imagine like the fear that those girls must have
been experiencing in that moment, and his voice is so
eerily calm and authoritative, and it just absolutely fucking chills
me to my core. And I like to the point
where I keep up on news with that case. And

(23:02):
you know, they have a suspect in custody now and
there are a lot of really you know, exciting developments
happening with that case. But I almost have to be
mindful of like listening to any podcasts about it because
I don't want to fucking hear that audio. I don't
know what it is about that motherfucker's voice.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
It's haunting.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
It's haunting. That shit keeps me the fuck awake at night.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
Well, he was found guilty.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Oh we yes, who yeah?

Speaker 1 (23:29):
And that, But going back to your body cam and
live Facebook Live comment. I mean, I think that technology
has changed so rapidly and it's covered and it's changed
the way that we cover stories because now, as you know,
when I worked in news, police didn't wear a body

(23:49):
cam and we didn't even have Facebook. I don't think
maybe we did, but there was definitely no like live option,
you know, everything that if I wanted to go live,
I needed like a big microwave truck with the big
poll and stuff like that. So like the fact that
citizens can now broadcast to the world like instantly, or
I as a journalist, could request the body cameras, it

(24:13):
just changes the dynamics of storytelling, but also about the
way police approach scenes and the way they react to things.
So I just think it's really interesting the way that
technology has not only changed law enforcement, but the way
we cover things as independent you know, journalists.

Speaker 3 (24:33):
Oh for sure, and just as civilians, as citizens like
we now have the capacity to expose truth in ways
that you know, positions of power were always able to suppress,
right And not to say that there isn't still wild
suppression like all over the Internet and technology, et cetera,

(24:55):
But it's just it's a really fascinating element where anyone
you know, basically every phone now is a smartphone, so
everybody has a video camera in their pocket. Almost everybody
has the capacity to share an event in real time live.
And that was just like you said, that was not
a thing. That was barely a thing ten years ago,

(25:17):
right right, So yeah, I mean that those kinds of
developments are are really really fascinating to follow and to
see happening.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah right.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
I also worked in the news back in the day,
and you can't control the narrative anymore because everyone can
share what is happening there. It is truly amazing what
technology has done for getting information out.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
We're going to take a short break and after the break,
we're gonna discuss some more fun topics. So stick around.
We'll re ride back. When we started coming up with
this idea of collaborating, we came up with a bunch
of fun prompts and one of them is I thought
was pretty hard if I had unlimited resources. So, if

(26:03):
you had full investigator, full investigative team with an unlimited budget,
what cold case or unsolved mystery would you tackle first?
And I really struggled with this one. I mean My
first thought was dB Cooper, you know, because like everybody's looking.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
For d B.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Cooper. Yeah, but I'm not so interested in DBI Cooper personally.
I don't know why, because I interviewed a hijacker who
actually jumped out of the plane with the cash and
actually survived to live to tell the story, and I
thought that was way more interesting than d B. Cooper. Who. Yeah,
so I'm not so interested in dB Cooper. But if
I had to pick, I think I would go to
a story I covered extensively, which was the case of

(26:43):
Frank Abognail Junior. He's the guy from Catch. Maybe you
can so for those of you who don't know, Frank
Abognail Junior lied about his life story. He never really
did the things he said he did.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
He was one of the most successful con artists of
all time.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
I do it's very meta because he's he's still a
connartist except the government, right, he does not work for
the government. That's a lie too, it is, yes, it's
all a lie. Yeah, he was never he what he
did dress up as a pilot and got some free flights,
but he was never a lawyer, he was never a doctor.

(27:20):
He never worked for the FBI. He was never a professor.
It's all a lie. He's built this like decades long career.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
Still getting duped by that motherfucker. All these years later,
we all are what the fuck? I really thought that
that consulting thing after his arrest and imprisonment was real.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
He says he works at the FBI Academy teaching ethics.
It's all bullshit.

Speaker 4 (27:44):
Oh gosh, Amanda listened to pretend you had know this.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
I am the worst. It's so caullable. You can tell
me anything and I'd be.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
Like, wow, me too. Yeah, but podcasters don't listen to
other podcasts time, and we don't, and why would we,
Like we marinated all this dark stuff, like why would
we want to listen to more true crime? But the
reason why I picked this one because I thought, to me,
it's a little bit of an unsolved case because if
he wasn't a pilot, a doctor or lawyer or professor

(28:14):
or working for that FBI, then what the heck was
he doing?

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Right?

Speaker 1 (28:17):
And we kind of found out some of the things
that he was doing during that time period, like scamming
doctors and realtors with these investment scams. There's like twenty
to thirty years that, like, we would love to fill
in the gaps because this guy was definitely a con
artist and he was definitely fooling people. It's just not

(28:39):
the con artists that we thought he was.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
Wow, that's I'm shook.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah, Tom Hanks and Leo DiCaprio lied to me, I.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Know, and Steven Spielberg don't forget him. I'm sure they
knew the real that's the worst part. I'm sure that
Hollywood knew that it was all bologna and all.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
Right, they have to tell the most interesting I mean,
the movie is fucking great. It's a phenomenally shit.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
I get shipped on a daily basis about this there, Like, dude,
it was a movie. Of course they made some things up.
I'm like, no, no, no, they made the whole thing up right,
Like it wasn't even based on a true story. It
was based on the live fantasy.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah, exactly what about yours, Whitney, I don't.

Speaker 4 (29:20):
I can't pick a single case.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
That's that's my problem is if we have an unlimited budget,
I want to go big and take every piece of
DNA that's out there and test every single piece of
DNA out there, use the technology of today and solve
them all. I can't narrow it down to one because
give me an unlimited budget, I'm musa spend it.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah that's super fair. Yeah, I am such a child
of the eighties that mine will always, like my knee
jerk reaction to this question, will always be Jambonet Ramsey.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah that was That's your Roman empire.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
It's kind of my Roman empire. And like I think
that younger folks, you know, listeners who were not kids
or teens or preteens in the late eighties early nineties
media frenzy still exists very much now. But like tabloids
were at their peak of like problematic existence when we

(30:19):
were that age. And so when I tell you, this
little Girl was plastered on every magazine, in every supermarket,
on every TV channel, you could not escape the image
of Jambinet Ramsey. And even in that story still is
very captivating to audiences today. I mean, we just got

(30:41):
what two new Jambine Ramsey documentary series that just came out,
and you know, I don't want to get sued, so
I'm not going to go too deep into my theories,
but like it's a weird case. It was botched by
investigators from the very beginning. The DNA was fucked, everything
was muddy, the crime scene was not handled properly at all.

(31:05):
And it's one of those cases where it's like, this
is a family that did slash, does have unlimited resources,
and we still don't fucking know, we still don't fucking know,
and how important that handling of evidence and chain of command,
and you know, it doesn't matter if it's a small
town and the cops know the family, it doesn't fucking matter.

(31:25):
You have to treat those crime scenes with the utmost
care and vigilance because that is, in my opinion, the
most critical moment is that first assessment of a crime
scene and that collection of evidence. And as we can
see with the jam Day Ramsay case, if you don't
collect it properly, it really doesn't matter how much money
and unlimited resources you have. If the evidence isn't there,

(31:48):
you're fucked. Well.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Those first hours are so critical to making sure that
the case goes right. I mean imagine like a lot
of law enforcement and worked on cases where they I
don't know if they ever said this, but they kind
of assume it was a suicide. You know, you can't
assume it's a suicide because if you go in with
that mindset, then you're missing out on any potential clues

(32:13):
and you can never recreate that. I mean that you
could try, but we know the blood spatter sometimes is
considered it could be junk science too, you know, like
things aren't. You could replicate it, but nothing will replace
the evidence that's had no and.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
I mean even DNA is not like the smoking gun
that right, the true crime, you know, especially documentaries have
made it out to be.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
I'm working on a story right now because you know,
you would think that DNA is ironclad, right, I mean
you can't. You know, you can't. You can't fake DNA.
But now I'm working on a case of these these
DNA experts that have been either manipulating the data excluding

(32:58):
other DNA evidence. And it's a amazing I thought it
was just this one woman who was accused of doing that,
and then the more I look into it, I mean
this is like a problem.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
Oh yeah. I mean you can't quote unquote fake DNA,
but you can. You can withhold it, you can manipulate it,
you can improperly collect it. You can There's room for
not only just human error, which you know, even investigators
are people with preconceived biases and ideas and thought processes

(33:30):
that are going to guide an investigation. It is what
it is. But yeah, even in the labs, like shit
can fucking happen, and there are bad actors in there
too well.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
And if you want, if you have a conclusion in mind,
and you have some DNA, and then you have other DNA,
but you only want, you know, to show this DNA
because it's more convenient for the case, and that creates
a problem, and that never to me. It never occurred
to me that DNA could be also subjective thousand.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
Percent, and that, to your point, is a problem in
so many cases where like the investigators or whatever team
is working on this has, you know, their version of events,
and instead of letting the evidence guide them toward the conclusion,
they want to use the evidence to fit the narrative

(34:23):
that they are connected to. And we all do that.
I mean, we speculate in our show all the time
and like bend over backwards to try to make certain
things align that might not align. But like we're also
very clear that we're not journalists and that we're speculating
wildly and it's a very hypothetical like maybe it was this.
We're not the ones that are fucking in the trenches

(34:44):
like trying to solve these crimes. So, but that that
kind of process happens in a lot of investigations. At
first glance, this is what we think happens. So we're
going to try to find the pieces that fit that
rather than let's let's look at the puzzle and let
the puzzle fit together and then come to a conclusion.
It's kind of a backwards way that we investigate crimes,

(35:07):
certainly in the US.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
So let's get on to our next topic, which is
controversial cases. Are there any cases where you've had a
change of heart or perspective after researching and even releasing
your episodes?

Speaker 3 (35:21):
Yes, all right, got okay. Michael Peterson and his wife Kathleen,
The Staircase. The Staircase. Lucy, co host of Wine and Crime,
has a show on our subscriber platform, calls Spooky Little Bitch,
and she has always been a skeptic on whether Peterson

(35:45):
did kill his wife, and I had always been like,
he did it, He did it? Yeah, dude, it's a creep.
You're never going to change my mind, And She did
an interview on an episode of Spooky Little Bitch with
someone who is an expert in uh like forensics, but
also specifically birds owls, and he talked, Yeah, he talked

(36:08):
a lot about the owl theory, which I had always
laughed at thought it was absolutely ridiculous. And after listening
to that interview, I am no longer convinced that it
wasn't an owl. I mean, there's evidence that they didn't include.
There's bird poop, there was feathers, there was all kinds
of shit that was actually like consistent with an owl attack.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Man, I'm with you on this one. So you know,
I live in Raleigh, North Carolina. Actually technically not even Raleigh.
I live in between Raleigh and Durham, And this is
your neighbor takes place in Durham. Yeah, And in my
backyard we have a bunch of owls. I mean I
see them all the time. We were eating dinner and
they're like swooping by. One day and I love owls,

(36:51):
of course, like they even had the little baby owls.
They go on the trampoline, They're super cute, really awesome.
But one day I'm like in the back porch, you know,
just sitting there with my daughter, and there was this
owl staring at us and it wasn't going it was
going like, no, I had never heard that sound before.

(37:14):
And then it flapped the swing and flew close to us. Nope,
like intimidating us. And we're like I told my daughter,
I was like, get up, let's walk very quietly. Yeah, yeah,
birds out, and I all of a sudden that ol
theory makes a little bit of sense.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
I don't know, honestly, Like, I'm going to send you
the file for this interview, because I was fucking blown
away by the stuff that this guy pointed out that
had been not included in feathers. Oh yeah, not included
in the like overall you know, evidence right up, things
that were not put in any of the documentaries or

(37:53):
coverage on this case. I mean, obviously we know that
so much documentary coverage is biased. It's just that it
is what it is. I mean, even in our own shows,
like we we bring our series and biases into our
productions as well. We're human. But damn, I mean it
was I was like, there's no way you're going to convince.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Me she's such a controversial.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
Polarizing Sosteners are like, I know, Amanda's a Michael Peterson sympathizer. Yep,
I famously hate women and he didn't do it. Pull
that clip out of context, start and make me go viral.
Let's fucking go cancel me?

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Oh man, how about you? And do you have one?

Speaker 4 (38:44):
Well, there's one that we covered.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
It's not really controversial because not many people have covered it,
but after researching it, we had done a story about
a woman in a small town in Arkansas. She was
a woman of color, She had a child with a
white man who was married to another person. This all
came out after her murder, but her mother was murdered,

(39:07):
and they tried to blame the murder on two a
lesbian couple, one of which was a woman of color
that we know of. The other woman may have been
a woman of color also, but we're not sure of that.
But all the media coverage of it pointed to the
fact that this couple was responsible for the it's a
super brutal murder and her three year old daughter founder.

(39:28):
But we worked with the daughter and we sent her
our full episode, recorded it everything with everything we found
research wise that's out there. She's like, you got this
all wrong. Let me send you what I have, and
it was the media was way wrong. I mean, like
this woman got convicted, she was then later exonerated of
it and all the charges were dropped against her, but

(39:50):
the second woman in the relationship was never charged at
all because they didn't have evidence and it was all
based off of planted evidence, and this murder weapon been
lost and then refound and retested in all kinds of
crazy things like that. So that was a case for
us that was particularly eye opening about basically checking your
sources because just because it's in the news does not

(40:12):
mean anything.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Right, We've all seen that happen. I mean, that's the
danger with us in the podcasting world is that, you know,
I do a lot of investigations, first person accounts, that
kind of stuff, and not all my stories are like that, right,
Like sometimes I'm relying on articles that are being written
about it, and if somebody gets the story wrong from

(40:33):
the beginning, it has a snowball effect because then somebody
else picks it up, and somebody else picks it up,
and then it becomes true even though it's not right.
And so that is like when you said, when I
think you said earlier that you know, getting it wrong
keeps you up at night. I mean, yeah, that that
keeps me up at night too, because there's so many
ways that we could get the information wrong if we're

(40:53):
not getting it firsthand right.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Right from that, Yeah, And that's part of why I
think the Wine and Crime format in this context does work,
because again, we're not investigative, so we are just pulling
from the resources that are available to us on the internet,
like newspapers. Dot com is our best friend. But because
the show is so conversational, we have the opportunity to
flag like I read this in this article, I don't

(41:18):
know if I agree with this and then have that conversation, right,
But like, media literacy is a challenge that everybody faces.
I mean I recently, it actually just came out today.
We do these monthly episodes called Gossip at the Corpse Cart,
and people will send us like, well, I don't know,
we just get drunk and say stupid shit. A segment

(41:41):
that I do on there is just funny headlines. And
I will cold read these articles that people send me
that are just like about unhinged true crime or you know,
just something really funny. And I had one sent to
me that was about a cornfest in Iowa and how
like somebody had to go to the hospital because they
like shove too much corn in their mouth. And I
was like, and it was in Wisconsin, and I was like, Oh,

(42:01):
there's no way this isn't real. And as I'm reading
it with Lucy and a guest that we had on
the show, they were like, the photo for this is Ai.
He has like an extra weird finger. Something is going on,
and I'm like, I'm usually so good about this kind
of stuff, but because in this format, I cold read it,
like I see the headline and I'm like, this is funny.
I want to just experience this in real time, live

(42:24):
on the show. So I didn't catch that, and I
was like destroyed, Like my whole world was falling apart.
Because we do talk about how important media literacy is
and like being careful about your sources, and here I
am reading something from like basically the Wisconsin version of
the Onion with like an AI fucking culture. It's getting
harder and harder to Oh, this was so obviously Ai.

(42:47):
I am ashamed, Like the second you see it, you
would know, but I was just like, I thought it
was so funny and I was so in love with
it that I like didn't want to believe that it
could be fake, so I just did and then was
put in my place, which I appreciate.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
I think. Another one of my controversial cases I think
that everyone will know is making a murderer. Oh, I mean, yeah,
that one, Stephen Avery.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
It's you.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
If you only watched the Netflix and didn't look up
anything at all, you were bound and determined after season
one that he was innocent and it was all fabricated,
and everyone the world.

Speaker 4 (43:23):
Is against Stephen Avery.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
And then you get season two and you're like, hold on,
I have questions, and then you actually do research and
you're like, I have way more questions now than ever
before because wow.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
Mm well, and that's one of those sure cases where
it's like I I don't know for sure. I think
he probably did do it, like having had a similar
experience that you had. But that's another one of those
things where it's like the investigation fucking matters so much
because when mistakes or planted evidence or pushing a narrative, whatever,

(43:55):
any of those things come into play, then you get
the court of public opace. I mean, this happened with
Jean Ben ay Ramsay, there's so much misinformation about that
case that has been regurgitated so many times in the
media that it's just taken at first glance as fact
when it is inherently not true. And there's a lot

(44:15):
of that with the Stephen Avery case as well. I think,
you know, Brendan Dacy got the short end of the
stick and was definitely taken advantage of as a disabled person. Again,
all of these biases that can come into play that
really affect an investigation. And again, none of that means
that they are innocent. But how we gather that evidence,

(44:40):
how we get confessions, how we convict, how we take
those cases to trial, fucking matters. It matters so much.
We have to do that shit with integrity or we
can have no trust in any of these fucking systems.
Maybe they did get the right guy, but if they
went about it in a fucking shady way, then it's

(45:02):
all for fucking nothing.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
Yeah, it off. Yeah, it's crazy. How I mean, sometimes
as consumers of these documentaries or news in general, we
don't have the time to research and like go you know,
and fact check everything that we've seen. You know, sometimes
we have to like trust that some of this information

(45:24):
is true, and boy that you know, like a lot
of people either as cherry picked or they just like
skew the the details to the point where like it's
not even true anymore. But I was thinking about the
controversial cases. I think about one where I was personally duped,
you know, because I don't see myself so much as
a victim's advocate, because I try not to take, you know,

(45:48):
a side. I tried to report things as neutral as possible.
But there was this one case that I was working on.
It was about this like middle aged couple. They were
like the salt of the earth that were religion, you know,
this and that. And they said that they were the
victims of the stalker, that their doctor's husband was stalking

(46:09):
them and sending all these messages and you know, the swatting,
just like the case I had told you before. And
these people had been stocked and harassed for two years straight.
And I believed them, like they gave me no reason
not to believe them. And then it all changed when
I realized during the course of my investigation that the

(46:29):
IP addresses for some of these harassing messages was coming
from their own house.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
The call was literally coming from inside the house.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Someone at that house was stocked. It was sending these
messages like it could have been the mom, it could
have been the dad, it could have been the one
of the adult kids. It was such but I felt
so betrayed, you know, because I spent I actually spent
two years before I ever broadcast, like or dropped the episode.
I spent two years investigating this case, and I felt

(47:00):
up and you could hear that during the course of
my reporting, because it starts off like, hey, we got
to find this guy that's you know, bring him to
justice and all this stuff, and then during the course
of the investigation, I was just like, are you fucking
kidding me?

Speaker 3 (47:13):
What season is that? I need to go back and
listen to that, to those episodes.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
It's called The Stalker. Okay, Oh my god, I should
know this. It's I want to say, season thirty. Okay.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
I mean, if you if you search, pretend The Stalker
the Stoker.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
I don't remember my own show. I kind of listen.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
We have hundreds of fucking episodes. People are always like,
do you remember when the gal said this on this episode.
I'm like, y'all, no, I don't remember what I had
for breakfast. I have no idea what I say the
second after I've seen it.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah, we're episodic too, so I'm like, no, I don't
remember what we covered in season two.

Speaker 4 (47:49):
Let me go to my list.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
It's season twelve, guys, season twelve, all.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Right, the soccer in season twelve. All right, season twelve,
I cannot. Yeah, that one sucked that you put so much.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
Well, it made for an interesting story, though, because and
you solved it well. Yeah, they ended up getting arrested
and charged with six felonies after Like, so I before
I released the series, I sent it to the detective
work in the case. Yeah, and like three days later
a grand jury met and they got arrested, and oh crazy.

(48:21):
I know it was nuts, but it is hard.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
I mean. Another part of the reason why I personally
in my true crime podcasting journey shy away from that
direct connection, right, is because I am like terminally empathetic,
and I get very connected very quickly. And I the

(48:44):
betrayal that you felt from like covering this story and
being so deeply investing in helping this family and then
discovering that like it was them all along. Nope, that
would be like my last season of podcast. I'm fucking done.
My mental health came now.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
That teaches you to set rate yourself a little bit
from the subjects, because I've learned that, and all of
us bring different perspective, right, Like, so Whitney's thing and
her whole thing is, you know, victim advocacy, right Like
for me, I can't do that because sometimes in my experience,

(49:19):
the victims, even though they mean very well, they see
the story just from one vantage point, of course, and
they're like they're convinced. I remember I did this one story,
and like the victim's family like they were just convinced
that this person was the killer or whatever, and it
was just like there was no talking them out of it,

(49:40):
no matter what you know, because that's what made sense
to them. And so like, as an investigator, you almost
have to like take a step back talk to as
many people as possible because the truth is somewhere in between.
But I try to keep a healthy distance, although like
it's really hard you get attached to these.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
People, right, And I mean I imagine it would have to
be excrew sciatingly hard to talk to a victim and
believe their story, of course, and also have that separation
and other information and outside perspective that like communicating those perspectives,
whether it's directly to their face or in the context

(50:18):
of what you release in your show, and having it
not be aligned with their exact experience and their perception
of what had happened. And you know, we're all, as
Kamala Harris would see say, you think you just fell
out of a coconnutry, Like, we're all the product of
all of our generational trauma and all of our experiences
and everything that came before us that led us to

(50:40):
these moments right now. And so that kind of shit
will always infiltrate how we perceive our experiences and even
the experiences of others. So that shit is very, very
hard to navigate because you can't not be human.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
I'm curious how Witmy handles that, because have you ever
encountered a situation like that where you know that the
victim is like just not intentionally like misleading you, but
that they're just have you ever witness sent.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Yeah, those are the hardest interviews we have working with families, because,
like you said, they perceive things a certain way. They're grieving,
so they are feeling things that are different that may
skew what they saw or what they heard or what
they know. So we really have to lean hard into facts,
and you do. Javierd does an excellent job of this.

(51:28):
If you haven't listened to pretend, go do it, because
he is strictly fact based, and he says like, look,
you said this, but this says this, and that's presenting
all of the information at once, and I think that's
where you have to really lean into those things of
the police report said this, but the family told me
this and let people kind of form their own opinions
on the matter, which is how we handle things because

(51:51):
we don't want to tell a family member that they're wrong,
and we don't want to say that the police report
is wrong. This is just the information that has been
given and it happens to conflict.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
Yeah, correct that right, correct.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
It's it's just so hard and you don't want to
again tell families that they're wrong. Uh. I mean, there's
there's a case that we haven't covered yet, but we've
been working on for a very long time where an
uncle is suspected in the crime and it becomes a
very fine line which you can't even really see the line.

(52:27):
It's so fine of how do you introduce this potential
suspect without actually identifying him as a family member where
it can affect the investigation, It can affect affect the
family dynamic and cause a lot of problems, but also
still share this person's story.

Speaker 4 (52:46):
It's it's it's very.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Complicated, and that's kind of why we are the way
we are. Of like that we're trying to figure this
out to you guys, like we're evolving with this and trying
to learn to So we.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Just talked about the cases that really changed our minds,
which is kind of remarkable, right when we think we're
doing one thing and then where we change our minds.
But what is the hardest part for you guys to
make a true crime podcast? The listeners just might not realize.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
I think for us, the hardest part is that we
are truly independent. We do not have a staff of anyone.
So we research everything, we record everything, we edit everything,
we manage our social medias.

Speaker 4 (53:27):
We set up.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
The interviews, we do the interviews, we transcribe the interviews,
we then write the scripts, so literally everything is done.
This is a forty hour week plus job. Nine times
out of ten, I mean there's some episodes that take
a little less time because there's a little less information
out there. Honestly, the ones with less information out there
take longer than the ones with a lot of information out.

Speaker 4 (53:49):
There because you have to dig deeper.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
So I think what people don't realize is they get
an hour ish show and they think that that might
take three hours to put together, when in all reality
it takes forty hours of production, and then to keep
your audience engaged on top of that, with social media,
with scheduling, with administrative style work, that's even more. I

(54:16):
think that's the hardest part is you don't realize how
much work it takes to put something together for sure.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
For sure. Yeah, I think for us, because it's short
form and we do we cover a lot of cases,
a lot of stuff that's like obscure and weird that's
not covered at length. But then we also cover some
pretty famous ones too, and just the format of our
show does not allow for all of the details and

(54:43):
the in depth you know reporting investigating all of that.
So that's challenging to make sure we are providing a
thorough but also cut for time version of some of
these really twisty, journey complex things. That people are like,
oh my gosh, please talk you know, talk about Jean,
Betty Ramsey, talk about X Y Z. And it's like,

(55:06):
we will touch on that, we will cover it to
the best of our ability, but we don't have the
time within the format of our show to be able
to do that.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
And how often do you publish every week?

Speaker 3 (55:17):
And then we have our Gossip at the Corpus Card
episode every month, and then we're putting out two shows
monthly on our subscriber platform, Like we're making a ton
of content, a ton of content, and it is really
hard work. I think, kind of to what Whitney was saying,
Sometimes folks that listen don't know the amount of work

(55:39):
that goes into the show. And I think sometimes, while
I'm very grateful and feel very supported and connected to
our listener community, that sometimes the paranormal or paranormal hot
parasocial relationship portion can be a challenge because you hear
our voices and we're very vulnerable and open on our show,

(56:02):
and we produce a we have a great team, so
we produce a pretty polished product, but like we're people,
like we're just two idiots who are silly and drink
some wine and get high and talk about true crime cases.
And so we're going to mess up. We're going to
get information wrong, We're going to maybe have opinions or

(56:27):
takes that people don't agree with, and that's okay. We're
very open to feedback. We have apologized, we have adjusted,
you know, our our thought processes. Like we've had our
listeners people, we're just people, and we've had our listeners
with us for now almost eight years. So like we're
not the same people that we were when we started

(56:47):
this show, and that I think that that's an important
thing to show, Like we kind of talked about at
the top of the episode, that growth and that change
over the years, especially reading some of the stories that
have so many similarities and unpacking ways that we did
see like the justice system before and how we see

(57:09):
it so differently now. But yeah, that's always an interesting
thing to navigate, especially like when we're meeting people in
real life at shows or at conferences or things or
you know, events and things like that, For people are
excited and overwhelmed and like really pumped to meet us,
and I'm just like that. I feel like my ego

(57:30):
feels one way about that, and then the other part
of me is like, I'm just an idiot. I'm just
like a person just like you who just happens to
make a living talking about my life and a true
crime on a on a show that like you listen to.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
I'm no different, But you built your tribe over the years, right,
Like these are your people, right, they really are listen. Yeah,
and some people might not like would you say or whatever,
but those people fall off, and what's left at the
end of the day is your community, right, Like, yeah,
they come for you. I mean you can literally probably
talk about going to lunch at the Piccadel or whatever,

(58:10):
and they probably think it's hysterical. And like, my audience
tells me that too, Like I can talk about whatever.
I just I just released an episode about the Lady.
It's a repeat, but still it was one of my favorites,
The lady on the Maury Publics show who was afraid
of olives. Oh, there's nothing to do with true crime now.
It was a fun story that I wanted to tell.
Oh yeah, And and my listeners are like, yeah, whatever,

(58:33):
it was fun, you like it, We like it? So whatever.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
Yeah, I think I just you know, want to express
that we are so fortunate that our listeners give us
a lot of grace and if you are a consumer
of this content, like that's a great way to consume
content with like grace and humanity. And also we take

(59:00):
in your feedback, like we we really do listen to you.
And there have been many times when our listeners have
helped make us better people. And that's something that I
wasn't expecting and something that I really appreciate and like
that is welcome. And also we're we're just human beings
trying to figure it out. And we're figuring it out

(59:21):
like on a microphone and broadcasting that out to the world.
It's a really vulnerable thing to do, right, So I'm
not saying like tone police and you know, don't give
us feedback, like we want the feedback well.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
And even the bad reviews, like I love that thing, right, Like,
well at the beginning, they do stings, right, but we
get a lot more. Normal people don't get as much
feedback as we do. Right now, we say something that's
slightly off, and we're going to get emails or pet reviews,
and you definitely you have to build this thick skin

(59:57):
to deal with on that stuff. But like you said,
some of them are history.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Oh yeah, there, I have one cross stitched in my kitchen.
The review is a one star review that says bad
is the title, and then it says, I hear they're
playing this podcast on repeat in Guantanamo Bay.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Oh that's awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
That beats our cats. One. That beats our cats one.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
Oh true. Well, you know everyone out here saying that
Navigating Advocacy is an anti cat podcast. So as someone
who wants to cats, that's a.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Really good I heard in the background, So.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
Clearly hate cats. If your dog barks, you hate cats.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
If you guys hear my great Dane is snoring in
the background.

Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
So yeah, I love the pets. But yeah, I mean
like the cats too.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
We just don't have cats, we do, we love them all.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
This making content also has a way of like forcing
the creators to be chronically online, so that like I
am chronically online because I have terminal FOMO and I
never want to like not know the joke, and yeah,
I want to be in on everything, so it like
fits well for me. But it is a challenge with

(01:01:03):
my mental health and you know, seeing even though I
take in feedback with like an open mind and a
lot of grace. There are things that gnaw at you
that are more like less about the content itself or
the subject matter and more about you know, your voice
or your physical attributes, things that like you are exposed

(01:01:23):
to by by being in putting yourself in the public
eye in that way. It's hard and those are things
that I unpack in therapy and that that's a challenge.
That is a challenge.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
It keeps the economy going right right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
It's interesting that you you point that out because there
was something that early on when we were back when
were culled Crimes and Cabernet, we had made this obviously
parody video of us at Sam's Club filling up.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
Or a Costco family, How Dare you well?

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
With Sam's was closest okay, filling up our heart with
Snoop Dogg's and I teen Crimes wine because we thought
it was like it fits, like this is funny, and
I mean clearly we're not buying a cart full of
wine for the weekend, like we were like this weekend's
grocery order check, you know, like and of course they're like,

(01:02:16):
that's the most weightlifting those women have done in their
entire lives.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
Oh fuck you.

Speaker 4 (01:02:25):
Right, So those things they do hurt. You're like, they hurt,
but you know, what are you gonna do? It's a
comment and it counts in the algorithm. I guess it's a.

Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
Surprise that we have to pay for putting content.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
And yeah, I mean I don't I don't know your
experience with that, Javier, but like a lot of true
crime podcasters are women, and so you know, just historically.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
I don't get.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
Yeah, we are subjected to comments in that arena, you know,
pretty regularly, and we have a social media manager, and
like we're not against deleting and blocking people that are
just trolling and being fucking assholes. Like our content is free,
Like you don't have to listen to it, you don't

(01:03:11):
have to follow it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
You can.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
People are mean. People are mean people jugular and especially
for women and vocal fry and all this stuff. It's
just so you know, just don't listen to it. Yeah,
move along, Just go listen to something else, you know, Like.

Speaker 4 (01:03:27):
I'm interested, Yeah, I'm interested to hear.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
What's what's more difficult for Hoavier?

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Yeah, like in terms of like like reviews or just
in oh a man's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Because I know what I have, we need a man's voice.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
That's what this world, the world of podcasting needs more
male voices. No, Now, I think for me, I think
we all our shows are so different. But for me,
you're just asking me now, So I'll just tell you
what's bothering me now is that I had this huge
case fall through, you know, and I'm I do this

(01:04:04):
every season. I'm like, I ran out of stories, and like,
you know, I have all these interviews but not the
main con artists, and like, I just like, I'm out
of stories. You know. I'm having that fear now, But
everything always works out. Every time I have this freak
out moment that I have no content, then it just
like poors and then I don't know what to do

(01:04:25):
with it. But yeah, I just had this case I've
been working on for a year and a lot of
my cases, by the way, that in terms of what's
hard is that I release episodes weekly, but some of them,
my cases, on average, heart takes six months of reporting,
some take two years. This one that just fell through
was a year worth of reporting. And it was this

(01:04:47):
extortion case out of Nebraska that these women were getting
targeted by I'm guessing a guy right like he was
targeting them, hacking into their iademic, stealing their now, stealing
their nudes, sending their nuds to their parents, to their
employers on a daily basis. And then and I finished
the story, and it was really awful what this guy

(01:05:10):
did to them, and I right before I released the episodes,
or i'd never released the episode, but right when I
was going to release the episode, I called one of
the victims, just trying to see if the harassment was
still happening, just to get like an update, and she's like,
oh my god, I'm having like PTSD just talking to you.
If you don't mind, I'd rather you not air the
story because I changed my name, I changed my job,

(01:05:32):
I changed my phone number, and things have finally quieted down,
not just for me but for all the other girls.
And I just I'm afraid that if you started, if
you air this, it might start back up. And you
know what, without hesitation, I just I pulled it like
I don't care.

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
Of course, that's hard, you know, you pour your heart
and soul.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Yeah, it's a lot of work, but also it's a
very important story to tell because I think that people
could learn a lot from it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
When you know what there might come a time down
the road when they're ready for that content.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
That's what she realised. She said, don't don't, she said,
just put it on the shelf for now, and you
never know. It was really tragic because one of the
girls during the course of my investigation actually ended her life.
Oh now, we don't know if it was directly because
of the sextortion, right, it had to be a contributing factor,
and that that really impacted the other victims as well.

(01:06:26):
I mean, it's just real life. Yes, these are real
people's lives. And yeah, my show does contain journalism whatever,
but it's entertainment and I don't want their lives to
be exploited. But yeah, and so I was happy to
have this moment where I'm scrambling looking for the next
story because it's just not worth it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
Do you take how do you choose your cases?

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
Like?

Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
Do you take case suggestions? Do people reach out to you?
Do you reach out to people? How do you what's
that process?

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
Yeah, I've had a lot of At the beginning, I
used to like actively look for the story. Now how
the problem is sifting through the stories that come in
from suggestions and I get a lot of people like, oh,
this guy, you know, he was dating my elderly parent
and he's you know, swindling her. And I got a
lot of romance scams and a lot of different stories

(01:07:15):
coming in. But the problem is that it's hard. Just
because the story sounds juicy doesn't mean that it's worthy
of a story, you know, Like there needs to be
some documentation to back up some of these claims. I
can't just like run with somebody's story just because they
have a good story, you know, Like I have to
do the legwork, and a lot of times I end

(01:07:37):
up doing the legwork and nothing comes out of it
right because it's or they're just regular citizens. So I can't,
Like Loddna, I don't know if your audience is familiar,
I just did this, like all summer long. I just
did this. I don't even know how many episodes it
was North Well, it was a lot of episodes. I
did a lot of episodes on this woman, Ladna Humphrey,
who she's a true crime podcaster, author er all this stuff.

(01:08:00):
She has a very polished image, but she also has
a thirty year documented history of harassing some of the
people that either she's worked with or the people that
she's writing about. It's almost like she was accused of
creating her own stories, right, And for her, it was
clear why I could tell that story because this is
a person that has already put themselves in the public eye,

(01:08:22):
and so they considered themselves a public figure.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
And is in the same space that you're in that
we're in as true crime podcasters, undermining the trust of
the work that people that shows like both of yours
are out there doing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
Yeah, just because if the things that they're saying about
her are true, then she's poisoning what the work that
we're doing, right, because then people really can't believe anything. Right.
But the reason why I felt comfortable pursuing a story
like that versus some story that a listener sent me
is that she's a public figure, so her the threshold
for privacy is a little different for her than it

(01:08:58):
is for like Billy Bob that you know is scamming grandma, right,
And so yeah, I just I really have to there
is an endless supply of story ideas. I just have
to do enough legwork on each one of those to
make sure that it's viable for an actual story. So
it's for me, the problem is like sifting through it,
doing the legwork and getting it out like that's hard.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
Do you This is a question for both of you.
Do you have teams that help you with your research?
Are you so primarily doing it all yourself?

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
When you're shaking her head, I cannot believe that she
still does that, Like I cannot believe that you're even
editing yourself. I have a good editor, but we've used.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Your editor once or twice. Actually, really, I believe it
is someone you recommended to us a long long time ago.
But yeah, we we research everything. Melissa does the majority
of our research because I'm the one that does the
editing and the social media. So thankfully we get to
split responsibilities a little bit. And I'm the creative brain

(01:09:59):
tie of person and she's more of the type A.

Speaker 4 (01:10:03):
Logistics so researchers exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
We're strong in our own areas, so that works great
for us. But yeah, we still do every single thing
on our own book.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
He made many years, for many, many years, and I
think I'm doing this almost eight years now. For like
maybe five of those I was doing everything, editing everything myself.
And just recently, I mean I had to get an
editor because if I if I'm editing a show, then
I'm not reporting on the next show. And so that
was that saved a lot. And this guy, he's so good.

(01:10:37):
You know, when he sends back a draft, I'm I'm
looking for things to complain about every time. Yeah, he's great.
And so for me, that freed me up. And then
this year I actually hired two producers because I was
working at full time job and I couldn't work full
time job, be a family guy and also produce this
crazy and vious like weekly podca. You know, it was

(01:11:01):
just too much. So my producers and it's taken me
a long time. They're not full time, but like it's
taking us a long time to learn how to work together,
you know, and they know what I like and so
that's been kind of fun collaborating. I've never done that before,
so kind of like in between you know, Amanda and Whitney's.

Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
Yeah, I mean, it is the team that you have
behind you, whether it's the team of two that are
making the show or the people that you trust to
bring in to the project. It's all so important. I mean,
we we could not make our show. We put out
so much content. We could not make our show without

(01:11:40):
John our editor, and Andrea our production manager, Like they
work so hard and they are such an incredible collaborative team.
We have, you know, calls and meetings about just like
pitching ideas and live show ideas and video content, like
because you do get burned out being in the creative

(01:12:01):
space consistently trying to think of new things and ways
that you can connect with your audiences. And having even
if they're not employees or you know, people that work
directly with you. Having community even just like this to
bounce ideas off of and work together and get to
know each other is so key to like not just

(01:12:25):
being in this space, but thriving in this space and
being able to bring what we bring to our listeners
every week. So huge thanks to all of those support people. Seriously,
we'd be dead without you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
Well, in full transparency, I think what has saved us
is that we have met incredible people like y'all, like
Josh Likes countless others that when we've come into a
roadblock of how do we handle this situation? What should
we do here? Have you ever seen this? We've created
this community, it's so receptive to providing answers and solutions

(01:12:58):
and this is what we did in that situation, or
the feedback in just being able to have a sounding
board of someone that understands what you're doing or what
you're going through and willing to help. I've not met
a single person in the podcasting industry, whether it's true
crime or not, that's not been willing to sit down
and have a conversation with you about how to improve
or resolve your issue.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
Oh, it is such a supportive community for real, Like,
obviously you're gonna get your boudets and rogans and you
could just steer clear, but for the by and large,
especially the indie podcasting community, it is so collaborative and
so supportive, and it like we don't really care about
the size of your show, Like if we can make
something happen, if we can work together, if we can

(01:13:42):
offer resources or knowledge, like they're gonna we're gonna share it,
and it's so fucking cool. Well, is this a good
place to take a quick break and hear a word
from our sponsors and then finish out with a couple
of really fun little top and then call it a day.

Speaker 1 (01:14:02):
Yeah, yeah, I like it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):
All Right, we'll be right back.

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
All right, We're back and we are now going to
talk about our dream collaboration. So if you could interview
anyone a detective, a journalist, a witness, a criminal, who
would it be and why?

Speaker 3 (01:14:18):
Okay, my answer is not at all related to true
crime in any way, shape or form. But on our show,
our monthly episodes of Gossip at the Corpse Card, we
have a segment called Coven Confessions, and every month we
have a guest come on and our producer Andrea pulls
anonymous confessions that our listeners have sent into us, ranging

(01:14:40):
from the most embarrassing thing that's ever happened to them
the worst thing they've ever done, which is a great
party game with your family. Go around the table and
say what's the worst thing you've ever done? You'll learn
a lot. And then we have these guests come on
and they cold read these confessions and Andrea will pull
them to be like connected to something in the guests life,

(01:15:00):
maybe connected to their career or where they're from, or
you know whatever. And we've had so many fucking awesome
people on those segments. So let me clarify, I am
not saying this to diminish any of the incredible guests
that we've had to come on to read those. But
my dream guests to come on and do that would
be Drew Off Wallow and Brittany Broski. I love these

(01:15:25):
women so much. If you're not like a big TikTok girly,
then you might not recognize who they are. But they're
two creators. Drew Off Wallow is someoen and she has
built this incredible platform on really intersexual feminism, and like
she just tears specifically white men the fuck apart on
her show and on her like on her channel, and

(01:15:48):
she's built this incredible platform. She's so smart, and she's
so funny, and she's so intuitive and just like a brilliant,
brilliant person. And she's doing really impactful work through this
like comedic lens that I think is so clever and
makes it digestible while also like really taking in some
important lessons on racism and misogyny. And it's just it's

(01:16:12):
just fucking brilliant what she's putting out into the world.
And I would fucking kill to have her come on
and read some of these confessions. And Brittany Broski is
someone who like speaks to my autism adhd heart so deeply.
Her show is so funny. It's called The Broski Report.
She has it on YouTube and podcasting, and she really

(01:16:33):
just like nerds out about whatever the fuck she wants
to talk about on her show, and sometimes she'll get
really vulnerable. Sometimes she'll like do dragon sounds. I just
like love her show. Listening to her talk like scratches
something in my brain because I'm like, oh, your brain
and my brain are the same, and I love it.
I'm so comforted by her. And yeah, just another like

(01:16:55):
fucking funny, brilliant, vulnerable, awesome person. I think it would
be so fun to have an opportunity to work with
either or both of those phenomenal women.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
That's so cool.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
Yeah, check them out.

Speaker 4 (01:17:10):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
So, Whitney, you got you got someone I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
So this is so hard because I'm a people person.
I want to be with all the people all the time,
because I'm the extreme extrovert.

Speaker 4 (01:17:24):
That's why I have Golden.

Speaker 2 (01:17:24):
Retrievers as dogs because they always want to be with
me and.

Speaker 4 (01:17:28):
That comforts me. So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
The list is ongoing. Anyone who wants to come talk
to me, come, let's just do it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
Yeah, Whitney, I had a hard time with this one too,
because I'm not usually like starstruck, and I don't really
want to meet any famous detective or anything like that.
But you know, while Amanda was talking, I was thinking,
you know Steve Hartman from CBS News. He's a journalist.
I don't know if you guys know him. He he
does all these feel good stories for cebe Yes, and like,

(01:18:00):
long time ago, you used to do these. Everyone had
a story segments on CBS and they were like tear jerkers.
I mean, you watch that, and I've always wanted to
make people cry while like my podcast, you know, and
he always finds like the heart of a story, and
like the fact that he could literally talk to anybody
and find the story. I just want to like ask

(01:18:21):
him a million questions, like how do you do that?
You know, because I think I'm pretty personable, but there
are some people that I talked to them, I'm just
like I hit a wall, like yeah, but I do
believe everybody has a story. I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
I do wish I could improve on my interview skills
because I just get so wrapped up in the conversation
that then I forget to ask the questions I meant
to ask, and then you know, you're an hour and
a half into your interview and you're like, oh, by
the way, I also still have twenty questions to ask
you because I've just wasted all of our time together.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
No, that's okay. I think that that means that you're
a good listener. And if you're listening and not just
like asking your questions, you're gonna get That's where the
real good stuff comes from. Like if you just like
move on to your next question, missed like a big opportunity, right,
Like maybe it wasn't what you were planning, but but
it's definitely that's where the gold is.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):
Yeah, letting that conversation flow is such a fun and
intimate way to like not just create content, but you know,
get to know and really connect with the people that
you're working with.

Speaker 1 (01:19:19):
Yeah. Absolutely, all right, So let's end it with one
last prompt.

Speaker 3 (01:19:23):
All right, I'm so excited about this product.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
This is called The Desert Island True Crime. So you
have one detective, one journalist, one legal expert, and one
forensic scientist. It could be real, it could be fictional.
Who makes up your team and why Amanda?

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
Okay, my detective would be Clarice Starling from Silence of
the Lamps.

Speaker 1 (01:19:52):
All right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:53):
I have complicated, uh hormonal responses to Jody Foster that
guide that decision pretty strongly as well. So that's one
My journalist Keith fucking Morrison. I have listened to the
thing about Pam so many times. It's a comfort show

(01:20:15):
of mine. I just like want to be his best
friend and I could fucking listen to him read a
grocery list and I would be so happy with that.
I also just think he's, like he does something really
unique in his journalism and maybe people you know are
into this and maybe they're not, but his kind of
like subtle commentary or reactions are like the way that

(01:20:38):
he can evoke responses out of people in this sort
of like grandfatherly like his voice is so iconic that
it's borderline silly, and I feel like it breaks down
some barriers for people when they're in conversation with him
in a unique way. That's like it just I don't know,
it just does something for me. I just think he
would be so interesting to collaborate with. I didn't choose

(01:21:01):
a legal expert because I didn't but in terms of
like investigation I would want Elizabeth Salander Salander from the
Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, the Researcher. She can find
fucking anyone, anything, anywhere. That bitch is a badass. And

(01:21:22):
I also have complicated, uh hormonal feelings about her character
and about Rooney Mara in general. And then my scientist
pic is Robin Williams scientist character from Flubber, Professor Philip Brainer,
because that man can make something out of something incredible

(01:21:47):
out of nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:21:48):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:21:49):
So that's my fucking team.

Speaker 1 (01:21:51):
That watch this, watch Flubber watch. No, no, I want
to watch the movie with her her team.

Speaker 3 (01:22:02):
Oh, the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

Speaker 1 (01:22:03):
No, no, I'm talking about like all these people in
one movie.

Speaker 3 (01:22:07):
Yeah, in one movie, somebody has to do a cool
super cut edit of like Flubber, the Girl with the
Dragon Tattoo and Silence of the Lambs.

Speaker 1 (01:22:14):
I don't think anybody's ever mashed those up.

Speaker 3 (01:22:17):
But somebody creative can make that happen.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
So this would make it a really excellent TikTok. Just
gonna say that I'm taking note of that that.

Speaker 1 (01:22:26):
Together.

Speaker 3 (01:22:26):
I need that mashup. I need the Flubber Dragon tattoo, Silence.

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:22:35):
It's no longer Mary Kill. This is the new thing.

Speaker 3 (01:22:38):
I love this silence of the dragon flobber.

Speaker 1 (01:22:42):
There you go. Oh man, that's awesome. How about you, Whdney?
Did you assemble your dream team? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
Sort of, but now I feel it now hearing a
man is like is like im blatantly obvious.

Speaker 3 (01:22:56):
Follow that not everybody can bring the unhinged adhdanius that
I bring to the table. It's not a comparison. We
all are different, we have different skills.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
I also went all fictional because that's just what I
had to do. So I feel like I had to
go Jessica Fletcher flex Fletcher, Jessica Fletcher because duh. I
mean then for those who don't know, that's murder, she wrote,
go watch it again. Child of the eighties, That's where
most of mine come from.

Speaker 3 (01:23:24):
The show is so fucking good.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
I'm stuck on my detective between Sherlock Holmes and Morgan
Freeman from seven Yet list watched that so many times
as a child. He's like ingrained in my brain. And
who doesn't like to listen to Morgan Freeman. Also Angelina,
Joe Lee and Bone Collector is up there.

Speaker 4 (01:23:43):
That's a good one.

Speaker 1 (01:23:44):
Yeah. Yeah, also complicated or complicated feelings.

Speaker 3 (01:23:48):
So many complicated feelings were little heart cannot take it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:53):
My investigator is not truly an investigator, but she's someone
that always wanted to seek out more information and would
do the hard things, the hard digs, which is Nancy Drew.

Speaker 3 (01:24:05):
I love that choice.

Speaker 2 (01:24:07):
She was not afraid to go do it herself. And
I love that because I am a feminist, So sign
me up for all those adventures.

Speaker 1 (01:24:15):
She's I got True Crime, Starter drug. You know, honestly
got Gateway.

Speaker 3 (01:24:19):
If you're a millennial and true Crime, you had your
Nancy Drew era, and your Babysitters Club era and your
box Car Children era. I feel like that's the pipeline.

Speaker 4 (01:24:27):
Yeah, yeah, it is, it really is.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
And then my lawyer or legal expert isn't traditionally in
criminal aspects, but I think if he took his tenacity
into the criminal realm, he would get some shit done.
And that's Harvey Specter from Suits. Oh okay, that's my

(01:24:50):
dream team.

Speaker 1 (01:24:51):
I like it.

Speaker 3 (01:24:52):
I'm over here thinking Josh would pick like Tom Girardi,
which if you watch Real Housewives or ever saw Aaron Brockovich,
you know who that is, but he's you know, obviously disgraced,
disgrace former lawyer Tom Girardi.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
Yeah, well, I winning I thought your lineup was awesome. Yeah,
I would totally watch that mashup movie too, sober, don't
blow it, I know. Okay, well I too went the
fiction all route because it's so much easier. But my
my detective is Adrian Monk from Monks.

Speaker 3 (01:25:28):
Oh hell yeah he was.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
Yeah, he's just so neurotic and I just love that actor.
I loved him and miss maisl and I just think
he's so like freaking funny, and so he would definitely
be my detective. The legal And this one might be
a deep cut because I don't know how many people
watch this, but did you ever watch Boston Legal? And

(01:25:52):
it wasn't that awesome? And so my lawyer would be
It was tough to choose. But Denny Crane, which is
William Shatner character, Oh my god, I love that show.
And if you haven't watched that show, that is such
an underrated show, I'll watch it. I don't even know
where you can see that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:10):
That was an era of television like Boston Legal, fucking
like Crossing Jordan medium. What else was was it ally
McBeal was out around that time. It was like such
an like the nineties were wild, y'all.

Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
When networks still had good shows. Yeah, yeah, and so
for sure. So for journalists, I chose and I'm cheating here,
but just because I just want to see I just
want to work with this guy. I choose Ron Burgundy,
you know, Will Ferrell Anchorman.

Speaker 3 (01:26:47):
That's great. I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:26:49):
That's a great one.

Speaker 3 (01:26:50):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:26:52):
Anything, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And here's here, just to make
things interesting my forensic scientists, I chose, uh, Walter White
from Breaking Bad, even though he's not funny like everybody
else is funny. Yeah, I mean that guy has like
an answer forever, brilliant. Yeah, I'm just rewatching Breaking Bad.

(01:27:13):
And there was this episode with him and Jesse and like, uh,
I think they were stuck in the desert their car
battery died, and like Jesse's like, come on, mister White,
why don't you just are you gonna make like a
robot or something.

Speaker 3 (01:27:24):
To get us out of the generator And they're out
there fucking That's like one of my favorite shows of
all time. My husband and I rewatch it almost every year.
We love it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:33):
It's so good.

Speaker 4 (01:27:33):
It's so good.

Speaker 3 (01:27:34):
That is a fenomenal pick.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
That's so good, Walter White Baby. Yeah, and I just
picked that just because it's top of mind. I'm watching
that now. It's such a good show. I think I've
watched it like three times.

Speaker 3 (01:27:46):
It's so fucking good. Dude, well done.

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
Yeah, I think all of our lineups were pretty good.
And I love this. By the way, I think we
should do make this like an annual tradition, and you know,
I agree. I think our are over. Josh Hallmark will
be so proud of us if we continued this tradition.
But it was so cool just to bring us together.
We're such three different shows. And if you haven't checked
out Wine and Crime or Navigating Advocacy or pretend, I

(01:28:13):
mean check it out, because you're missing out. These are really,
really good shows. I've been around for a long time.
They have huge audiences for a reason, and I think
you're gonna love it. And I hope that we gave
you a small little taste of who we are in
this episode. But yeah, go check us out. All of
our info will be down in the show notes, and

(01:28:36):
we from all of us. I hope everyone has a
great twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (01:28:41):
Thank y'all so much. This was a blast. I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:44):
I'm in every year.

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
Hell yah, I would do this weekly shit on lives.
Let's you know, like this is too much fun. Thank y'all,
check everybody out.

Speaker 3 (01:28:53):
Yes, echoing everything that everyone has said. Huge thanks to
Josh Hallmark for connecting us in person and you know
in this opportunity, and to our listeners, we love y'all.
We could not do any of this without you, and
your support means the world to us. So thank you
for helping us close out what you know was not
an easy year twenty twenty four. And I just want

(01:29:14):
to put positivity, resistance, and strength and community out into
the world for twenty twenty five. And we are sticking
around and we'll be here with you through all of
the bullshit that is to come. That's right, all right, y'all.
We'll catch you after the new year.

Speaker 1 (01:29:33):
Thanks, all right, take care