September 19, 2023 • 41 mins
Host and filmmaker Allen Wolf becomes the guest in this rebroadcast of Perspectives on Neurodiversity where he talks about the journey of making his recent movie, The Sound of Violet. We dive headfirst into a discussion about the film adaptation of his novel. The road to casting Shawn, a unique character with autism, wasn't easy, but we talk about the triumphs achieved along the way and the personal connections to the story's theme of human trafficking. We'll hear how the film reflects human life's complexities and unpack essential aspects of a character's development and relationship portrayal in films. Uncover how Allen worked to illustrate Shawn's character and discovered his autism, integrating the concept of synesthesia into the story.
We'll also reflect on the transformative power of film and the impact The Sound of Violet has had on its audience. How did the pandemic affect the film's release? How did the critical role of music shape the story? Discover how Allen and composer Conrad Pope worked to create an Academy Award-worthy score. Don't miss this enlightening exploration of neurodiversity, the intricacies of independent films, and the beauty of creative storytelling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Allen Wolf (00:03):
Welcome to the Navigating Hollywood podcast.
My name is Allen Wolf and I'm afilmmaker and an author.
Navigating Hollywood encouragesand equips entertainment
professionals to liverelationally and spiritually
holistic lives.
If you work in entertainment,be sure to visit
navigatinghollywood.
org to see how you can getinvolved.
Today you'll get to learn alittle bit more about me and my
(00:25):
work.
I was recently a guest on thepodcast Perspectives in
Neurodiversity and we'representing a rebroadcast of that
episode here.
Enjoy the show.
C.S. Wyatt (00:37):
Welcome to Perspectives on Neurodiversity,
a podcast dedicated tochallenging myths and
assumptions about neurodiverselife.
I am your host, ChristopherScott Wyatt, speaking as the
Autistic Me.
Joining us once again is AllenWolf.
I last chatted with Allen inlate 2001.
We discussed his novel, TheSound of Violet, and the planned
(00:58):
theatrical release of the filmadaptation.
Now the film is available viamost streaming services and on
Blu-ray or DVD dist.
Allen is an award-winningfilmmaker, novelist, and game
creator based in Los Angeles.
He is also the host of theNavigating Hollywood podcast.
The Sound of Violet was hisdebut novel.
(01:21):
Allen wrote, directed andproduced the film adaptation of
The Sound of Violet.
The screenplay won numerousawards and the film brings
awareness to the socialchallenges based by autistics
and the issue of humantrafficking.
His previous film, In My Sleep,won multiple festival awards.
Allen has also created fiveboard games that won a total of
(01:44):
39 awards.
Welcome back to the podcast,Allen.
Thanks so much for having me.
Great to be here.
So let's jump right in TheSound of Violet.
I will have a link to the firstdiscussion we had, which was
predominantly about the novel,and I read an electronic copy of
that novel, shared it with someof the discussions with my wife
(02:06):
.
We talked about the characterShawn, we talked about his
issues as an autistic individual, and at the time, you were
explaining to me now, almost twoyears ago, that the film was
going to differ from what I read.
And it does.
It does, yes, so let's jumpright in on that.
(02:27):
Both are about an autisticindividual's experiences dating
and trying to find love.
Yes, why did you adapt the film?
How did that adaptation changefrom the novel?
And vice versa?
Because you had explainedpreviously they were intertwined
.
Allen Wolf (02:48):
This is true.
I was always interested inseeing the story become a movie.
And the story takes place inNew York City, the movie takes
place in Seattle and there's alot in books.
You're writing out what youwant the reader to be able to
(03:12):
picture and imagine in theirminds, whereas in the screenplay
you're actually visuallyshowing them everything you want
them to see.
So it's a very differentprocess.
Whereas the novel is very lushin its descriptions and words,
when you write a screenplay it'svery skeletal in structure.
(03:32):
It's really the scaffoldingthat's going to be around the
building that you're creating,which is ultimately the film.
So there are just differentthings that are more captivating
in a film than they are in thenovel.
The novel tends to be able totake its time with certain
things, whereas in the movieyou're kind of getting to the
(03:54):
point and certain issues.
And then the other point withthe movie too is that I then
showed it to test audiencesBecause as a filmmaker, at some
point I feel like I lose myobjectivity and just need
feedback from people who watchit.
So, based on the feedback, Idid a bunch of changes to the
movie and cut out some scenes,extended some scenes, moved
(04:18):
around some scenes.
So in the end you get twodifferent experiences between
the movie and the novel.
C.S. Wyatt (04:24):
Let's talk about the main character.
Shawn, can you first explainhow you chose the lead, because
the lead has an interestingbackstory himself too.
Allen Wolf (04:34):
Well, my goal was to choose the best actors possible
, and we had a terrific castingdirector.
She brought in a lot ofdifferent actors to read for the
two lead roles.
I knew I needed a lot ofchemistry between the lead
character of Shawn and the womanthat he falls in love with,
Violet.
So I first started to narrowdown the role of Violet, and
(04:55):
then I had a real challengefinding someone who I felt would
be convincing, as Shawn itturns out.
Later I discovered that theperson who ultimately played him
, kasein Thomas, actually hasworked a lot with autistic
children as a teacher, and socame in with a certain amount of
knowledge and when heauditioned for the role I
(05:17):
thought well, he is reallygetting this character, they're
connecting really well.
So I cast him in the role.
Later he took me aside and hetold me that he could really
identify with one of the themesof the movie, which is
trafficking, because the storyis a romantic comedy about a man
who is desperate to find a wifeand he thinks he found his
(05:38):
soulmate, but his autism and histrusting nature keep him from
realizing that she's actually aprostitute looking for a ticket
out of her trapped life.
So after I cast Cason in thatrole.
He took me aside and he said Iwant you to know that my mom was
trafficked, that she actuallywas a prostitute and he was a
(06:02):
product of her and what happenedto her.
He has not talked to her sincehe was a senior in high school,
but he grew up in the fostercare system in Houston and he'd
always thought to himself if mymom had just gotten a second
chance, if people had looked ather in the way that we hope that
(06:23):
people will look at Violet'scharacter in the movie, that
could have made a realdifference in her life.
So he was very much attractedto wanting to play that part for
that reason and for theautistic themes in the movie,
and so it was such a perfect fit.
I didn't know that until afterI cast him and he didn't tell me
(06:43):
that until after I cast himbecause he didn't want that to
influence my decision.
But when I heard that it justmade it even more meaningful
that he was in that role.
C.S. Wyatt (06:53):
When we think about the foster care system.
My wife and I our daughterswere in the foster care system
for almost four years before weadopted them.
We were their first fosterplacement and I am a believer
that trauma creates a form ofneurodiversity.
It creates an awareness thatyou are in always a survival
(07:14):
mode fight or flight.
You're always on edge.
There's this instability allaround you that in many ways
alters your approaching, yourperception to relationships.
Do you feel that working onthis issue, both of trafficking
and then having a lead who isfamiliar with the dark aspects
(07:37):
of having a family member whohas been trafficked and who has
been through that Do you believethat gave him insights that
into Shawn's personality?
Allen Wolf (07:47):
Oh, tremendously.
So he's neurodiverse himselfthe case in Thomas and so he
also worked very closely withone of our lead crew members
named Tom Bond.
He was our DIT, which is theperson who is in charge of
(08:08):
making sure that all the footagegets copied and protected and
is safeguarded, so he's a verykey role in the film.
But he was very excited to workon the film because of the
themes and worked very closelywith Kaysen to make sure that
his portrayal was accurate andKaysen studied Tom and his
(08:32):
mannerisms and the way heinteracted with others as a role
model for him in that role.
So that was tremendouslyhelpful.
But I think that Kaysen'sbackground and everything that
he went through and overcamejust brought a real, just
emotional depth to thatcharacter and, I think, a deep
understanding of who he is.
(08:53):
That translated well on screen.
C.S. Wyatt (08:56):
So you did make a comment that you already had a
violet chosen before you castShawn.
I hope I say this right it'sCora Cleary playing Violet.
It's a very outstandingperformance there in the film.
How did you select her?
How was she Again?
I know you said you worked witha casting director.
How was this role chosen firstand did that sort of determine
(09:21):
the path you were going in as afilmmaker?
Allen Wolf (09:24):
It's a lot of work finding someone who will really
connect to a particularcharacter, and because I wrote
the novel in the screenplay, Ivery much had in my mind an idea
of what that character would belike, and so I saw probably
over a hundred people auditionfor that role on tape.
(09:44):
And when I saw Cora I realized,oh wow, she's really getting it,
she's really connecting to it.
She also was 19 at the time andthat fit in with that character
and I realized, wow, she had areal naturalness to her, the way
she portrayed the character andread for the role and like some
(10:06):
of the choices that she made.
So then I started to match herwith different possible shans
and then it wasn't until I sawKason that I realized, oh, wow,
okay, this is it, this is thecouple that's meant to be in the
movie, and that's your realhope.
It's like fitting a whole bunchof puzzle pieces together, and
(10:27):
different pieces don't quite fittogether and then your hope is
that you finally find one thatdoes, and I felt like I really
did when the two of them werematched together.
C.S. Wyatt (10:36):
Both of them.
This is their feature filmdebut.
Allen Wolf (10:39):
It is, which is incredible.
I mean it's just when you watchit you would never imagine this
is their first film thatthey're in.
The woman who played Ruth.
Her name is Jan D'arcy.
She's been in a lot of movies,TV shows.
She worked with David Finch.
She was in Twin Peaks.
She really took them under herwing in terms of during the
(11:00):
rehearsal process she wouldoften get together with them,
they would run lines, they wouldrehearse.
I would sit in with them andlisten to them take on the
different roles.
So I think that helped.
They really put the research inthe time in.
What was funny is that duringthe first week they were so good
(11:22):
in their roles that they neverreally made mistakes.
And at one point I said we havenothing for the gag reel
because you guys are not messingup.
And then we had another actorcome on who plays Shawn's
brother, Colin, and and Kaelonhad been in multiple TV shows
and movies and so after a takehe would do something funny
(11:44):
because he realized that it'sgoing to be on the gag reel and
then they kind of got it at thatpoint and we're able to loosen
up a bit.
But they you know it was a bigresponsibility.
These two people are carryingthis film their very first
feature film, but they reallyknocked it out of the park.
I was very, very proud of them.
C.S. Wyatt (12:02):
We discussed a couple of years ago how there's
the idea that the autisticcomputer programmer, the
autistic math savant, theautistic office worker who sits
there in the cubicle,comfortable alone, and in some
ways Shawn does fit some ofthose stereotypes.
He is a coder by profession,working on a dating app.
There's some complications thatviewers or readers will quickly
(12:25):
find out about.
Was this a conscious decisionto make him a programmer and fit
into that?
I don't want to say stereotype,because it's not just a
stereotype.
Many of us are technical innature.
But was there a reason forthese choices that you made
beyond just they're great for astory?
What influenced you saying, ok,Shawn's going to be in this
(12:47):
cubicle, way on.
Allen Wolf (12:48):
We discussed on your other show that my goal was to
never create a character thatrepresents all autistic people,
because each autistic person isvery unique and you meet one
autistic person and you've metone autistic person Like there's
really nothing about thatperson that you can make
generalizations about everyautistic person.
(13:08):
So I did want him to be uniqueand have characteristics that
fit in with his character, and Ithought that there would be a
lot of irony in a character whoworked for a dating app, who he
himself was having a lot ofissues connecting with women and
(13:28):
socially connecting with women.
His character was really firstinspired by my own awkward
dating life.
Like there are a lot of thingsabout my dating life that I
connected to with Shawn in hisown journey with One is a
naivete and the people that Iwould date and the women I went
out with, and also some of hisissues with building intimacy or
(13:51):
things that I had shared aswell.
So I could really relate to himon many levels in that way.
But beyond that, I really triedto find characteristics for him
that I felt made him unique asan individual and in terms of
him being autistic as a writerand an artist, it was more
(14:14):
something I felt like Idiscovered.
I didn't set out to make thatcharacter autistic, but it was
more that as I kept developinghim and I would have people read
the character, that peoplewould give me feedback and say,
well, there's somethinginteresting about him.
He seems to have troubledisconnecting with others in
certain ways and maybe notgetting certain social cues.
(14:36):
And then, as I did research andjust thought about some of the
relationships in my life, at onepoint I realized, oh, I think
he's autistic, so it's funny.
I felt like I discovered thatabout him.
And then once I realized that Idid even more research, talked
to more people and just tried toflesh out his character.
(14:58):
But my goal was always to makehim as unique as I could but
also just kind of fit in withthe story and what was best for
the story.
C.S. Wyatt (15:08):
And he's not just autistic, as many autistics and
neurodiverse individuals try toexplain.
They're often comorbidconditions, and in Shawn's case,
it's synesthesia.
Right, he hears color, right,hence the title.
So would you give someinsights, then, in how that also
(15:31):
became an important aspect ofthe character and the
relationships he has, not onlywith the people but even with
the world around him?
Allen Wolf (15:39):
Yeah, I discovered that that impacts about 20% of
autistic people and I havemultiple friends that actually
have synesthesia as well, and Ijust thought that would be such
an interesting part of hischaracter, especially in a movie
where everything is visual, sothat I could recreate visually
(15:59):
what he sees and then auditorilywhat he's experiencing as well.
And it's a way that he's ableto connect with the world around
him, and he sometimes uses thatas a way of trying to figure
people out and judge them is bylistening to the colors of what
they're wearing.
In the book you get much moreof that because the book is
(16:21):
longer and you get to see himexperience that in more
different contexts.
But within the movie I was ableto do it in key moments and it
really helped to set up acontrast between him and Violet.
She was able to startappreciating him and his
uniqueness and see that therewas something very different
about him when she realizes thatthat is something that is part
(16:44):
of his character early on.
C.S. Wyatt (16:46):
And when you adapted it, the relationships that are
in the book evolved slightly andshifted unsure out of necessity
.
Plus, with film there arethings you can do that are
visual, that indicaterelationships, how closely
people stand to each other whenthey're apart, when they're
making eye contact, not makingeye contact.
A lot of this works visuallymuch better, in some ways, than
(17:09):
a book.
I tell my students and I tellother people when I'm working as
a writer I don't think thattheater is better than film or
film is better than books oranything.
I comment that you know, ifwe're adapting Cinderella, how
we tell it in a book, how wetell it on stage or how we tell
it on film will change and theyeach have their own value.
(17:29):
And so what I notice about thefilm is the relationships are in
some ways much clearer,especially the relationships
with Colin and Ruth.
So you mentioned already Kalenin the brother relationship it
is an interesting one.
On screen it isn't always thesame as in the book.
(17:50):
This is a movie aboutrelationships, obviously not
just dating, but also then thetwo brothers, and it comes
across in the movie, I think,even more so than in the book,
that Colin is protective.
Allen Wolf (18:03):
I loved Kalen Christopher's portrayal of Colin
because he really does, I think, connect well to the role that
the brother takes on, which isbeing very protective of Shawn
but also wanting to comealongside him and help him to
grow and learn.
And you see that when they gotogether to one of the work
(18:26):
parties where Shawn is trying toconnect with people there and
Colin gives him some advice onhow to do so and at first it
doesn't go really that well.
I loved the connection thatthey have and later you see, in
the growth of their relationship, just a real emotional
(18:48):
connection.
Without ruining a key pointthat happens in the movie.
There's something that happenslater on where you see Colin's
character very much touched bysomething that his brother does
for him and I just think there'sjust a difference.
When you're watching somethingand you're seeing the actor's
(19:08):
performance, you're experiencingthe music of the moment, you're
just giving your full attentionto it.
I just think it hits youdifferently, emotionally.
It just goes into a differentplace, whereas when you're
reading it it's you're having to, in your imagination, come up
with the moment and what thecharacters look like, and it's
(19:29):
just a different process of howyou connect with it.
I think it can just be more,sometimes be a little bit more
emotional in the movie alsobecause it's all condensed into
one sitting, whereas you'rereading the book over multiple
days.
It was, yeah, a differentexperience in that way and I
think to your point, sometimesthat can make relationships and
(19:55):
certain situations much moreclear.
You also have much less time todo things, so you tend to
really make things much morecondensed and concise.
So there were some charactersthat in the book they were
portrayed by two differentcharacters, but in the movie I
made them into one character ortook scenes that took place over
multiple scenes in the book andthey were condensed into one
(20:16):
scene in the movie.
So that's the challenge betweengoing between the book and the
movie very different pacing,very different journey, but you
still want the audience to beable to connect and emotionally
really connect in with what thecharacters are going through.
And because it's a romanticcomedy, I also wanted them to
(20:37):
laugh and enjoy it, even thoughat the same time it's more of a
kind of a dramedy, really partcomedy, part drama.
But that's my hope as thefilmmaker is that the audience
loves going on that journey withthe characters.
C.S. Wyatt (20:51):
Stan Mallow.
Ruth is again a relationshipcharacter and you mentioned that
Jan D'Arcy was a mentor on setand Ruth is sort of the mentor
to the other characters.
That relationship is also againin the film.
It feels a little more.
She's more assertive.
It feels like in the film.
I want to say in some waysshe's also far more protective
(21:12):
and clear that she doesn't wantthat kind of girl around Right.
And it can be facialexpressions, it can be that they
stand across from each other inher room, it can be little
gestures made, but it capturesit very well.
So can you comment on Ruth inthe film?
Allen Wolf (21:30):
She adopted both Shawn and Colin when their own
parents really dropped the ballwith parenting them.
They she brought them intotheir home.
Their grandfather was stillliving at that point.
That's a little bit moreexplained in the novel.
But she really becomes theirparent to them and because of
that she's very much invested intheir future and particular
(21:55):
Shawn's future.
She knows she's not going to bearound forever, but she wants to
make sure that he's not withsomeone who really wants to take
advantage of him and wants totake advantage of her because
she's well off and so she's verysuspicious in that way and she
really wants the best for Shawn.
But I think in the context ofthe movie you see that in much
(22:22):
more in a sharper relief thanthe book, because you get fewer
scenes and so that conflict isamplified.
You see her confronting theother characters in certain
scenes and so it's just muchmore kind of critical the way
that's worked out in front ofyou and I'm sure because of that
(22:43):
she comes out as across as moreprotective and more of a Just
kind of a mother hen, aprotective mama bear really.
C.S. Wyatt (22:54):
I think because of that and there are aspects of
her beliefs that are alsoexpressed, I think, more subtly
in the book, that are more outfront in the film.
She really wants Shawn to havea relationship by lasting you
know, it's not just a seconddate.
She wants him to be married andto be I don't want to say the
(23:17):
word normal, but to betraditional.
She seems to want thattraditional future for him.
Allen Wolf (23:23):
Right and she has loved him unconditionally for
years and sacrificed so much forhim.
I think she wants to know thatthe person that she's with will
love him just as unconditionallyand sacrifice her in the same
ways that she has for him.
And I think when she firstmeets Violet she thinks that
(23:47):
something's off and that she,Violet, is really about herself
and she just knows something'swrong with her and suspects that
something's very off with theway she's dressed and the way
she's acting and she doesn'ttrust her.
She doesn't come across it veryconservatively in the way she's
dressed, the way that she acts,and so I think Ruth just has a
(24:09):
lot of fears and really onlywants the best for her son.
C.S. Wyatt (24:15):
And that brings us to the title of character.
The portrayal of Violet is thecharacter that we see grow the
moth, change the moth, whateveryou want to call it.
It's the character's arc.
In some ways is really Violet'sarc.
We are watching how she isabused, how she is used, traded
as merchandise, she's treated asa product for sale and we watch
(24:38):
her grow, mature and break freein some ways.
So could you talk about againthe portrayal you were looking
for, what you managed to getonto screen with a young, first
time theatrical performance, andreally this is the core and
heart of the film.
Allen Wolf (24:56):
Well, I really wanted, whenever you're making a
film you want to make sure thatthe main characters they start
off one way, at the beginning ofthe film and at the end of the
film they've gone through thisgrowth process and really
changed.
So I wanted both Violet andShawn's character to go through
change and to be in verydifferent places at the end.
I think for Shawn he shows suchlove for Violet, he believes
(25:25):
her when she says she's anactress early on in the film and
so he has a kind of a naivetethere.
But he also just kind of seesthe best in her and loves her
anyway and that's verytransforming for her.
And I have not seen many I don'tknow if I've seen any films
(25:46):
where there's a lead romantic,autistic character who is the
hero.
I've talked to many people aboutthis.
No one has pointed out anyother stories that have that and
I thought, yeah, it's kind ofpast due, let's have that.
And it's really because of hisautism that he's in such a
(26:07):
unique position to be able tosee her through different eyes,
through a different lens, loveher and appreciate her in ways
that others haven't and it'scompletely transformative for
her and then the way that shecares for him back is equally
transformative for him, but indifferent ways.
(26:28):
So that's one of the things Ilove about the movie.
I you know, as I've shown it toin different venues and done
Q&As in different movie theaters.
Autistic folks have come up tome afterwards or talk during the
Q&A to say how much they'veappreciated it and could even
relate to the struggles of themain character.
(26:50):
But my hope is that the personwatching the film will want to
go on that journey and just asthey grow emotionally,
relationally, that maybe we asthe audience members can be
moved and change a little bit aswe see that modeled as well.
C.S. Wyatt (27:10):
But people have also responded positively to the
changes that Violet experiences.
Allen Wolf (27:18):
Yes, we did a Q&A in New York City.
This is opening weekend.
It was playing in theatersaround the US and I started off
doing a premiere in Seattle onThursday, los Angeles on Friday,
new York City on Saturday andthen Dayton Ohio, my hometown on
(27:40):
Sunday.
And while I was in New Yorkdoing the Q&A after the film, a
woman raised her hand and toldthe audience that she is a
former Violet and she loved thefilm.
It was accurate to what sheexperienced, but then she also.
She had written notes down onher phone and read them to all
(28:06):
of us and she said that she wasvery much moved by the message
of the film that everyone hasthe right to be loved.
I actually just found the quotethat she sent to me.
This is what she said.
She said the movie was all abouthope and reminded me of the
importance of love and grace.
We are all different anddeserve the love of God and true
(28:28):
love.
This movie showed theimportance of loving people,
understanding people for whothey are and where they are, and
loving them.
Anyway.
We both held back tears, kasonand I, because we were doing the
Q&A together, but it was somoving.
I mean I love that.
I love that people watching thefilm where they're coming from,
(28:52):
if they've experienced this ornot, that they're identifying
with those characters and theirjourneys and they're being moved
by it.
It's impacting them.
I mean there's no other hopethat I could have, really, as
both the author and thefilmmakers, that it impacts
people's lives and I love that.
C.S. Wyatt (29:08):
You don't get many movies that are going to say
there's a main character who's aprostitute and then the movie
is positively reviewed byfaith-based and family-focused
organizations.
And yet I've looked at some ofthe reviews online.
You had the review from Doveand some other sources that
tells you that this is a movieabout acceptance and not just
(29:30):
the experiences of the humantrafficking in the prostitution.
Allen Wolf (29:35):
Right yeah.
C.S. Wyatt (29:37):
That has to be rewarding, that this has been
widely accepted by people whomay at first wonder why are you
making a movie about aprostitute?
Allen Wolf (29:45):
Right, right.
Well, I think that for a lot ofus, when you hear that word or
you hear someone being denotedas a prostitute, a lot of images
get through your head.
And I think for a lot of peoplethere's a lot of judgment and
they think, oh, that person'sprobably that because of
something they've done orthey've chosen that for their
(30:08):
career or something.
And that was kind of where Iwas coming from when I first
started researching the film,because my perception of someone
who's in prostitution was verymuch in line with what I had
seen in most movies, where it'sthe empowered woman who's out
there.
This is her own choice, this isher way of making a living.
But then when I did theresearch, I found that I mean
(30:30):
nearly 100% of the time theseare women who've been abused,
who've experienced trauma.
They're not there by choice.
I mean who would do that bychoice?
And even the people who wouldmaybe publicly say, oh no, this
is my choice, I'm doing thisbecause it's my body.
If you do a little digging,they nearly 100% of the time
themselves were abused orexperienced trauma.
(30:51):
So then you have to askyourself how much of a choice is
this?
Are they really making this outof a healthy whole person.
So I realized no, that's notthe case and so that really
informed the creation of thatcharacter.
But I found early on in theearly test screenings of the
movie you don't find out, youdidn't originally find out how
(31:16):
Violet got to that place in herlife until nearly the end of the
movie.
That's how it is in the book.
But when I did test screeningsI discovered that audiences
couldn't really relate her andcouldn't connect with her until
I moved that scene up toward thevery beginning of the movie.
Till now it happens about 30minutes in.
(31:36):
You see what happened to her.
Once people experienced thatthey realized wow, I am rooting
for this character, I want thebest for this character and I
think it's just similar that wayin life that once we understand
what happens to not only thisperson but anyone who's going
through something that we as asociety might judge and say, ooh
(31:58):
, look at that person and thechoices they're making, once you
understand the background andwhat they've been through, it
really does bring a lot ofcompassion, a lot of empathy and
it can bring us to a differentplace.
So I did appreciate thereviewers who saw that in that
character, and the audiencemembers too, that they really
saw.
Okay, this is not quite what Ithought it was, maybe.
(32:19):
I came into this and a lot ofpeople after watching the film
said you know, I want to dosomething, I want to be a part
of changing this, and so they'dcontact their local
organizations or they'd go onour website, thesoundofvioletcom
, where you can get involved,and they'd make a difference.
That was very inspiring to me.
C.S. Wyatt (32:37):
Well, you said you did three premieres plus one in
your hometown of Dayton, and Irecall from our conversation
that is where you got your startas a filmmaker.
Yes, the premiere comes rightat the I wouldn't say the end,
but towards the edge ofreopening with COVID.
What was that experience like?
Premiering a movie as we'recoming out of the pandemic
(33:00):
trying to get this, you know,launched into theaters.
How difficult and challengingwas that, not just for you but
for your cast and all of thosepeople supporting this effort.
Allen Wolf (33:11):
Well, covid delayed our movie by a couple of years.
So in a few weeks a series ofvideos are gonna be coming out
that show behind the scenes howthe movie was made and when you
see that no one's wearing a maskbecause COVID hadn't happened
yet.
So by the time we actuallyrecorded the orchestral
(33:33):
soundtrack with a 52 pieceorchestra about a month before
COVID hit, and then the moviegot derailed because theaters
closed and we knew that itwasn't gonna be seeing the light
anytime soon.
So we first showed at the end.
It first came out in theatersat the end of April and 2022.
And it was a little strange,like I, people were just kind of
(33:56):
coming out of the darkness,coming out into public again.
I remember people I invited tocome to the premiere.
Some people said, no, I'm stillnot doing anything in public.
And you know, I understood, youknow where people were.
But I think enough people feltlike either that it wasn't the
(34:16):
threat that it was or they,frankly, had already gotten
COVID and felt like, okay, I'vealready been through this.
I think I'll be fine that theycame out in support of the film
and it made such a difference.
I mean, it's really fun toexperience the movie with a
crowd of people.
I'm encouraging people to watchthe movie and invite their
(34:38):
friends, their neighbors, theirfamily over, because there are
some really great issues in thefilm to talk about as a group.
It's a great movie night tohave.
It's a great opportunity toconnect with people that you
haven't connected with beforeEven your neighbors, maybe that
you haven't spent time with.
Like who doesn't want to comeover and watch a movie and then
have a great talk about itafterwards?
(34:59):
So I'm hoping that in that waytoo, the movie will continue to
bring people together, continueto help build a community.
But COVID definitely impactedus in the timing of it, but
ultimately, you know, I thinkeverything works out as a
certain way for a reason, and Iwas super thankful that we got
it all filmed and all the musicrecorded before everything shut
(35:20):
down.
C.S. Wyatt (35:22):
You mentioned the music you worked with.
Conrad Pope and indie filmsreally struggle to get original
music or original arrangements.
Both can be a challenge, andeven some popular shows when
they go to DVD or they getre-released, they have to change
the music because they'rerights issues, whatever.
Music is so key to film, Ibelieve from the days of silent
(35:46):
film when the music was theemotion.
This is one of the fewindependent films I've seen
where you even have, I believe,cds of the music.
Allen Wolf (35:56):
Right, right.
C.S. Wyatt (35:58):
That really I'm a sound person.
I love sound.
I'm a sound is my thing.
The audience I'll give you somebehind the scenes here if
you're listening to this podcast.
I just came from school of rockwith my daughter who plays
keyboard and drums and she isautistic and where she fits in
is she can play the drums andshe can play keyboard, and so
(36:19):
she's at school of rock here incentral Texas.
Music is so important to us.
It is how we communicate, howour emotions are conveyed.
We think in terms of songs.
I'll name a song to her to tellher how I'm feeling and she
gets it.
What led you to thatrelationship with Colored Pope,
who has worked on major projects?
(36:41):
He also contributed to yourfirst film.
Again, music being so key to me, I really appreciate an indie
film with this quality of soundproduction.
Allen Wolf (36:50):
Well, yes, our sound mixer, who ultimately mixed all
the sounds, was nominated foran Academy Award for past work
that he's done.
And our composer, conrad Pope,has worked with John Williams,
danny Elfman, alexander De Pla.
He's worked with some of thetop composers in the world and I
(37:13):
was very fortunate to meet himbefore I did my previous film,
The Sound of Violet, and Iwanted a Bernard Herman-esque
score because it's a very kindof Hitchcockian story and so it
was important to me to have anorchestral score for that.
And he did such an amazing joband we got a soundtrack deal for
(37:34):
that movie as well that I knewfrom the beginning I wanted to
work with Conrad on this movie,and so I first sent him the
novel.
He read the novel many yearsago.
We had been talking about thescore for years, so he's just
such a beautiful storytellerwith music that I thought, wow,
(37:56):
to have him partner with me andcome alongside this film could
just add just layers ofdimensions to the story.
I wanted him so badly to benominated for an Academy Award.
That was my goal and we butunfortunately we just got pushed
out by major films.
(38:16):
I mean, I didn't realize that.
I was a little naive going intoit because I thought, oh, it's
about the score and howbrilliant the score is, and we
sent out the score and links tothe score to Academy members.
But unfortunately we just gotpushed aside by just major films
that had just multimilliondollar budgets to be able to
promote their scores and theirmovies.
But that's how good I thoughtthe music was.
(38:38):
I just thought he did such anamazing job and that's one thing
I hear over and over frompeople who see the movie is how
much they love the music in themovie and to me it's what really
helps people to connect to themovie emotionally.
So I listened to the soundtrackmyself many times.
It's just, my kids have evenfigured out some of the songs on
(39:02):
the piano, so it was a realblessing.
I was so fortunate to work withConrad and I hope to work with
him again on my next film.
C.S. Wyatt (39:11):
It has been a pleasure to have you back on the
podcast.
If you're interested in moreinformation about Allen's work,
you can go to allenwolf.
com.
If you're interested inwatching the movie, I suggest
myself.
I always end up buying aBlu-ray just because things go
on and off streaming services.
You can do that atthesoundofvioletcom, so it's
(39:36):
just like it soundsThesoundofvioletcom.
You can purchase the DVD,Blu-ray or the soundtrack.
I think the soundtrack isdefinitely a standalone purchase
.
It's really a beautifularrangement.
Is there anything else that youwould like the audience to know
about this incredible projectand how it has turned out?
Allen Wolf (39:57):
Well, I'd love to hear what your audience thinks.
So, if you watch the film, youcan reach me through our website
, thesoundofvioletcom, and Ihave to spell out violet, it's
like the flower, because peoplesometimes think I'm saying the
sound of violence, but it's likeThe Sound of Violet, like the
color.
So if you go tothesoundofviolet.
com, I'd love to hear what youthink.
(40:18):
So please reach out to methrough the website and you'll
get to see the trailer.
On the website.
There are links to every placeyou can stream the movie or
watch the movie, and we're goingto be posting behind the scenes
footage and how the movie wasmade too, which is completely
fascinating.
So I'd love to hear from youraudience, I'd love to hear what
you all think of the film.
C.S. Wyatt (40:39):
But I really want to thank you for joining us on
Perspectives on Neurodiversity.
I do want to remind people thatindependent film, the
independent arts in general,really struggle and a lot of
people will wonder gee, should Ispend the $5 to rent?
Should I spend the $15 to buysomething?
You have to understand thatindependent film right now and
(41:01):
musicians, everyone right now isreally struggled to get back on
their feet after the pandemic.
If you want high qualityoriginal works of art, no matter
what the art is, you have topay for it.
And I know that sounds horrible, but artists need to eat.
We do consume food, we do needshelter.
We're hungry, we are hungry.
(41:21):
So I have no problem saying ifyou watch the trailer, you will
probably end up wanting to rentor buy The Sound of Violet.
So go to thesoundofviolet.
com, watch that trailer, listento it, see it.
Then if you rent it, you stillmight buy it.
You might as well buy it, right?
I mean, come on, Come on.
But that's my own personal view.
(41:43):
I do appreciate listeners ofthe Perspectives on
Neurodiversity podcast.
And again, Allen, it has been apleasure to talk to you again.
Allen Wolf (41:51):
It's been great to talk with you.
Thanks so much for having me,Scott.
I appreciate it.
Welcome to the Navigating Hollywood podcast.
My name is Allen Wolf and I'm afilmmaker and an author.
Navigating Hollywood encouragesand equips entertainment
professionals to liverelationally and spiritually
holistic lives.
If you work in entertainment,be sure to visit
navigatinghollywood.
org to see how you can getinvolved.
Today you'll get to learn alittle bit more about me and my
(00:25):
work.
I was recently a guest on thepodcast Perspectives in
Neurodiversity and we'representing a rebroadcast of that
episode here.
Enjoy the show.
C.S. Wyatt (00:37):
Welcome to Perspectives on Neurodiversity,
a podcast dedicated tochallenging myths and
assumptions about neurodiverselife.
I am your host, ChristopherScott Wyatt, speaking as the
Autistic Me.
Joining us once again is AllenWolf.
I last chatted with Allen inlate 2001.
We discussed his novel, TheSound of Violet, and the planned
(00:58):
theatrical release of the filmadaptation.
Now the film is available viamost streaming services and on
Blu-ray or DVD dist.
Allen is an award-winningfilmmaker, novelist, and game
creator based in Los Angeles.
He is also the host of theNavigating Hollywood podcast.
The Sound of Violet was hisdebut novel.
(01:21):
Allen wrote, directed andproduced the film adaptation of
The Sound of Violet.
The screenplay won numerousawards and the film brings
awareness to the socialchallenges based by autistics
and the issue of humantrafficking.
His previous film, In My Sleep,won multiple festival awards.
Allen has also created fiveboard games that won a total of
(01:44):
39 awards.
Welcome back to the podcast,Allen.
Thanks so much for having me.
Great to be here.
So let's jump right in TheSound of Violet.
I will have a link to the firstdiscussion we had, which was
predominantly about the novel,and I read an electronic copy of
that novel, shared it with someof the discussions with my wife
(02:06):
.
We talked about the characterShawn, we talked about his
issues as an autistic individual, and at the time, you were
explaining to me now, almost twoyears ago, that the film was
going to differ from what I read.
And it does.
It does, yes, so let's jumpright in on that.
(02:27):
Both are about an autisticindividual's experiences dating
and trying to find love.
Yes, why did you adapt the film?
How did that adaptation changefrom the novel?
And vice versa?
Because you had explainedpreviously they were intertwined
.
Allen Wolf (02:48):
This is true.
I was always interested inseeing the story become a movie.
And the story takes place inNew York City, the movie takes
place in Seattle and there's alot in books.
You're writing out what youwant the reader to be able to
(03:12):
picture and imagine in theirminds, whereas in the screenplay
you're actually visuallyshowing them everything you want
them to see.
So it's a very differentprocess.
Whereas the novel is very lushin its descriptions and words,
when you write a screenplay it'svery skeletal in structure.
(03:32):
It's really the scaffoldingthat's going to be around the
building that you're creating,which is ultimately the film.
So there are just differentthings that are more captivating
in a film than they are in thenovel.
The novel tends to be able totake its time with certain
things, whereas in the movieyou're kind of getting to the
(03:54):
point and certain issues.
And then the other point withthe movie too is that I then
showed it to test audiencesBecause as a filmmaker, at some
point I feel like I lose myobjectivity and just need
feedback from people who watchit.
So, based on the feedback, Idid a bunch of changes to the
movie and cut out some scenes,extended some scenes, moved
(04:18):
around some scenes.
So in the end you get twodifferent experiences between
the movie and the novel.
C.S. Wyatt (04:24):
Let's talk about the main character.
Shawn, can you first explainhow you chose the lead, because
the lead has an interestingbackstory himself too.
Allen Wolf (04:34):
Well, my goal was to choose the best actors possible
, and we had a terrific castingdirector.
She brought in a lot ofdifferent actors to read for the
two lead roles.
I knew I needed a lot ofchemistry between the lead
character of Shawn and the womanthat he falls in love with,
Violet.
So I first started to narrowdown the role of Violet, and
(04:55):
then I had a real challengefinding someone who I felt would
be convincing, as Shawn itturns out.
Later I discovered that theperson who ultimately played him
, kasein Thomas, actually hasworked a lot with autistic
children as a teacher, and socame in with a certain amount of
knowledge and when heauditioned for the role I
(05:17):
thought well, he is reallygetting this character, they're
connecting really well.
So I cast him in the role.
Later he took me aside and hetold me that he could really
identify with one of the themesof the movie, which is
trafficking, because the storyis a romantic comedy about a man
who is desperate to find a wifeand he thinks he found his
(05:38):
soulmate, but his autism and histrusting nature keep him from
realizing that she's actually aprostitute looking for a ticket
out of her trapped life.
So after I cast Cason in thatrole.
He took me aside and he said Iwant you to know that my mom was
trafficked, that she actuallywas a prostitute and he was a
(06:02):
product of her and what happenedto her.
He has not talked to her sincehe was a senior in high school,
but he grew up in the fostercare system in Houston and he'd
always thought to himself if mymom had just gotten a second
chance, if people had looked ather in the way that we hope that
(06:23):
people will look at Violet'scharacter in the movie, that
could have made a realdifference in her life.
So he was very much attractedto wanting to play that part for
that reason and for theautistic themes in the movie,
and so it was such a perfect fit.
I didn't know that until afterI cast him and he didn't tell me
(06:43):
that until after I cast himbecause he didn't want that to
influence my decision.
But when I heard that it justmade it even more meaningful
that he was in that role.
C.S. Wyatt (06:53):
When we think about the foster care system.
My wife and I our daughterswere in the foster care system
for almost four years before weadopted them.
We were their first fosterplacement and I am a believer
that trauma creates a form ofneurodiversity.
It creates an awareness thatyou are in always a survival
(07:14):
mode fight or flight.
You're always on edge.
There's this instability allaround you that in many ways
alters your approaching, yourperception to relationships.
Do you feel that working onthis issue, both of trafficking
and then having a lead who isfamiliar with the dark aspects
(07:37):
of having a family member whohas been trafficked and who has
been through that Do you believethat gave him insights that
into Shawn's personality?
Allen Wolf (07:47):
Oh, tremendously.
So he's neurodiverse himselfthe case in Thomas and so he
also worked very closely withone of our lead crew members
named Tom Bond.
He was our DIT, which is theperson who is in charge of
(08:08):
making sure that all the footagegets copied and protected and
is safeguarded, so he's a verykey role in the film.
But he was very excited to workon the film because of the
themes and worked very closelywith Kaysen to make sure that
his portrayal was accurate andKaysen studied Tom and his
(08:32):
mannerisms and the way heinteracted with others as a role
model for him in that role.
So that was tremendouslyhelpful.
But I think that Kaysen'sbackground and everything that
he went through and overcamejust brought a real, just
emotional depth to thatcharacter and, I think, a deep
understanding of who he is.
(08:53):
That translated well on screen.
C.S. Wyatt (08:56):
So you did make a comment that you already had a
violet chosen before you castShawn.
I hope I say this right it'sCora Cleary playing Violet.
It's a very outstandingperformance there in the film.
How did you select her?
How was she Again?
I know you said you worked witha casting director.
How was this role chosen firstand did that sort of determine
(09:21):
the path you were going in as afilmmaker?
Allen Wolf (09:24):
It's a lot of work finding someone who will really
connect to a particularcharacter, and because I wrote
the novel in the screenplay, Ivery much had in my mind an idea
of what that character would belike, and so I saw probably
over a hundred people auditionfor that role on tape.
(09:44):
And when I saw Cora I realized,oh wow, she's really getting it,
she's really connecting to it.
She also was 19 at the time andthat fit in with that character
and I realized, wow, she had areal naturalness to her, the way
she portrayed the character andread for the role and like some
(10:06):
of the choices that she made.
So then I started to match herwith different possible shans
and then it wasn't until I sawKason that I realized, oh, wow,
okay, this is it, this is thecouple that's meant to be in the
movie, and that's your realhope.
It's like fitting a whole bunchof puzzle pieces together, and
(10:27):
different pieces don't quite fittogether and then your hope is
that you finally find one thatdoes, and I felt like I really
did when the two of them werematched together.
C.S. Wyatt (10:36):
Both of them.
This is their feature filmdebut.
Allen Wolf (10:39):
It is, which is incredible.
I mean it's just when you watchit you would never imagine this
is their first film thatthey're in.
The woman who played Ruth.
Her name is Jan D'arcy.
She's been in a lot of movies,TV shows.
She worked with David Finch.
She was in Twin Peaks.
She really took them under herwing in terms of during the
(11:00):
rehearsal process she wouldoften get together with them,
they would run lines, they wouldrehearse.
I would sit in with them andlisten to them take on the
different roles.
So I think that helped.
They really put the research inthe time in.
What was funny is that duringthe first week they were so good
(11:22):
in their roles that they neverreally made mistakes.
And at one point I said we havenothing for the gag reel
because you guys are not messingup.
And then we had another actorcome on who plays Shawn's
brother, Colin, and and Kaelonhad been in multiple TV shows
and movies and so after a takehe would do something funny
(11:44):
because he realized that it'sgoing to be on the gag reel and
then they kind of got it at thatpoint and we're able to loosen
up a bit.
But they you know it was a bigresponsibility.
These two people are carryingthis film their very first
feature film, but they reallyknocked it out of the park.
I was very, very proud of them.
C.S. Wyatt (12:02):
We discussed a couple of years ago how there's
the idea that the autisticcomputer programmer, the
autistic math savant, theautistic office worker who sits
there in the cubicle,comfortable alone, and in some
ways Shawn does fit some ofthose stereotypes.
He is a coder by profession,working on a dating app.
There's some complications thatviewers or readers will quickly
(12:25):
find out about.
Was this a conscious decisionto make him a programmer and fit
into that?
I don't want to say stereotype,because it's not just a
stereotype.
Many of us are technical innature.
But was there a reason forthese choices that you made
beyond just they're great for astory?
What influenced you saying, ok,Shawn's going to be in this
(12:47):
cubicle, way on.
Allen Wolf (12:48):
We discussed on your other show that my goal was to
never create a character thatrepresents all autistic people,
because each autistic person isvery unique and you meet one
autistic person and you've metone autistic person Like there's
really nothing about thatperson that you can make
generalizations about everyautistic person.
(13:08):
So I did want him to be uniqueand have characteristics that
fit in with his character, and Ithought that there would be a
lot of irony in a character whoworked for a dating app, who he
himself was having a lot ofissues connecting with women and
(13:28):
socially connecting with women.
His character was really firstinspired by my own awkward
dating life.
Like there are a lot of thingsabout my dating life that I
connected to with Shawn in hisown journey with One is a
naivete and the people that Iwould date and the women I went
out with, and also some of hisissues with building intimacy or
(13:51):
things that I had shared aswell.
So I could really relate to himon many levels in that way.
But beyond that, I really triedto find characteristics for him
that I felt made him unique asan individual and in terms of
him being autistic as a writerand an artist, it was more
(14:14):
something I felt like Idiscovered.
I didn't set out to make thatcharacter autistic, but it was
more that as I kept developinghim and I would have people read
the character, that peoplewould give me feedback and say,
well, there's somethinginteresting about him.
He seems to have troubledisconnecting with others in
certain ways and maybe notgetting certain social cues.
(14:36):
And then, as I did research andjust thought about some of the
relationships in my life, at onepoint I realized, oh, I think
he's autistic, so it's funny.
I felt like I discovered thatabout him.
And then once I realized that Idid even more research, talked
to more people and just tried toflesh out his character.
(14:58):
But my goal was always to makehim as unique as I could but
also just kind of fit in withthe story and what was best for
the story.
C.S. Wyatt (15:08):
And he's not just autistic, as many autistics and
neurodiverse individuals try toexplain.
They're often comorbidconditions, and in Shawn's case,
it's synesthesia.
Right, he hears color, right,hence the title.
So would you give someinsights, then, in how that also
(15:31):
became an important aspect ofthe character and the
relationships he has, not onlywith the people but even with
the world around him?
Allen Wolf (15:39):
Yeah, I discovered that that impacts about 20% of
autistic people and I havemultiple friends that actually
have synesthesia as well, and Ijust thought that would be such
an interesting part of hischaracter, especially in a movie
where everything is visual, sothat I could recreate visually
(15:59):
what he sees and then auditorilywhat he's experiencing as well.
And it's a way that he's ableto connect with the world around
him, and he sometimes uses thatas a way of trying to figure
people out and judge them is bylistening to the colors of what
they're wearing.
In the book you get much moreof that because the book is
(16:21):
longer and you get to see himexperience that in more
different contexts.
But within the movie I was ableto do it in key moments and it
really helped to set up acontrast between him and Violet.
She was able to startappreciating him and his
uniqueness and see that therewas something very different
about him when she realizes thatthat is something that is part
(16:44):
of his character early on.
C.S. Wyatt (16:46):
And when you adapted it, the relationships that are
in the book evolved slightly andshifted unsure out of necessity
.
Plus, with film there arethings you can do that are
visual, that indicaterelationships, how closely
people stand to each other whenthey're apart, when they're
making eye contact, not makingeye contact.
A lot of this works visuallymuch better, in some ways, than
(17:09):
a book.
I tell my students and I tellother people when I'm working as
a writer I don't think thattheater is better than film or
film is better than books oranything.
I comment that you know, ifwe're adapting Cinderella, how
we tell it in a book, how wetell it on stage or how we tell
it on film will change and theyeach have their own value.
(17:29):
And so what I notice about thefilm is the relationships are in
some ways much clearer,especially the relationships
with Colin and Ruth.
So you mentioned already Kalenin the brother relationship it
is an interesting one.
On screen it isn't always thesame as in the book.
(17:50):
This is a movie aboutrelationships, obviously not
just dating, but also then thetwo brothers, and it comes
across in the movie, I think,even more so than in the book,
that Colin is protective.
Allen Wolf (18:03):
I loved Kalen Christopher's portrayal of Colin
because he really does, I think, connect well to the role that
the brother takes on, which isbeing very protective of Shawn
but also wanting to comealongside him and help him to
grow and learn.
And you see that when they gotogether to one of the work
(18:26):
parties where Shawn is trying toconnect with people there and
Colin gives him some advice onhow to do so and at first it
doesn't go really that well.
I loved the connection thatthey have and later you see, in
the growth of their relationship, just a real emotional
(18:48):
connection.
Without ruining a key pointthat happens in the movie.
There's something that happenslater on where you see Colin's
character very much touched bysomething that his brother does
for him and I just think there'sjust a difference.
When you're watching somethingand you're seeing the actor's
(19:08):
performance, you're experiencingthe music of the moment, you're
just giving your full attentionto it.
I just think it hits youdifferently, emotionally.
It just goes into a differentplace, whereas when you're
reading it it's you're having to, in your imagination, come up
with the moment and what thecharacters look like, and it's
(19:29):
just a different process of howyou connect with it.
I think it can just be more,sometimes be a little bit more
emotional in the movie alsobecause it's all condensed into
one sitting, whereas you'rereading the book over multiple
days.
It was, yeah, a differentexperience in that way and I
think to your point, sometimesthat can make relationships and
(19:55):
certain situations much moreclear.
You also have much less time todo things, so you tend to
really make things much morecondensed and concise.
So there were some charactersthat in the book they were
portrayed by two differentcharacters, but in the movie I
made them into one character ortook scenes that took place over
multiple scenes in the book andthey were condensed into one
(20:16):
scene in the movie.
So that's the challenge betweengoing between the book and the
movie very different pacing,very different journey, but you
still want the audience to beable to connect and emotionally
really connect in with what thecharacters are going through.
And because it's a romanticcomedy, I also wanted them to
(20:37):
laugh and enjoy it, even thoughat the same time it's more of a
kind of a dramedy, really partcomedy, part drama.
But that's my hope as thefilmmaker is that the audience
loves going on that journey withthe characters.
C.S. Wyatt (20:51):
Stan Mallow.
Ruth is again a relationshipcharacter and you mentioned that
Jan D'Arcy was a mentor on setand Ruth is sort of the mentor
to the other characters.
That relationship is also againin the film.
It feels a little more.
She's more assertive.
It feels like in the film.
I want to say in some waysshe's also far more protective
(21:12):
and clear that she doesn't wantthat kind of girl around Right.
And it can be facialexpressions, it can be that they
stand across from each other inher room, it can be little
gestures made, but it capturesit very well.
So can you comment on Ruth inthe film?
Allen Wolf (21:30):
She adopted both Shawn and Colin when their own
parents really dropped the ballwith parenting them.
They she brought them intotheir home.
Their grandfather was stillliving at that point.
That's a little bit moreexplained in the novel.
But she really becomes theirparent to them and because of
that she's very much invested intheir future and particular
(21:55):
Shawn's future.
She knows she's not going to bearound forever, but she wants to
make sure that he's not withsomeone who really wants to take
advantage of him and wants totake advantage of her because
she's well off and so she's verysuspicious in that way and she
really wants the best for Shawn.
But I think in the context ofthe movie you see that in much
(22:22):
more in a sharper relief thanthe book, because you get fewer
scenes and so that conflict isamplified.
You see her confronting theother characters in certain
scenes and so it's just muchmore kind of critical the way
that's worked out in front ofyou and I'm sure because of that
(22:43):
she comes out as across as moreprotective and more of a Just
kind of a mother hen, aprotective mama bear really.
C.S. Wyatt (22:54):
I think because of that and there are aspects of
her beliefs that are alsoexpressed, I think, more subtly
in the book, that are more outfront in the film.
She really wants Shawn to havea relationship by lasting you
know, it's not just a seconddate.
She wants him to be married andto be I don't want to say the
(23:17):
word normal, but to betraditional.
She seems to want thattraditional future for him.
Allen Wolf (23:23):
Right and she has loved him unconditionally for
years and sacrificed so much forhim.
I think she wants to know thatthe person that she's with will
love him just as unconditionallyand sacrifice her in the same
ways that she has for him.
And I think when she firstmeets Violet she thinks that
(23:47):
something's off and that she,Violet, is really about herself
and she just knows something'swrong with her and suspects that
something's very off with theway she's dressed and the way
she's acting and she doesn'ttrust her.
She doesn't come across it veryconservatively in the way she's
dressed, the way that she acts,and so I think Ruth just has a
(24:09):
lot of fears and really onlywants the best for her son.
C.S. Wyatt (24:15):
And that brings us to the title of character.
The portrayal of Violet is thecharacter that we see grow the
moth, change the moth, whateveryou want to call it.
It's the character's arc.
In some ways is really Violet'sarc.
We are watching how she isabused, how she is used, traded
as merchandise, she's treated asa product for sale and we watch
(24:38):
her grow, mature and break freein some ways.
So could you talk about againthe portrayal you were looking
for, what you managed to getonto screen with a young, first
time theatrical performance, andreally this is the core and
heart of the film.
Allen Wolf (24:56):
Well, I really wanted, whenever you're making a
film you want to make sure thatthe main characters they start
off one way, at the beginning ofthe film and at the end of the
film they've gone through thisgrowth process and really
changed.
So I wanted both Violet andShawn's character to go through
change and to be in verydifferent places at the end.
I think for Shawn he shows suchlove for Violet, he believes
(25:25):
her when she says she's anactress early on in the film and
so he has a kind of a naivetethere.
But he also just kind of seesthe best in her and loves her
anyway and that's verytransforming for her.
And I have not seen many I don'tknow if I've seen any films
(25:46):
where there's a lead romantic,autistic character who is the
hero.
I've talked to many people aboutthis.
No one has pointed out anyother stories that have that and
I thought, yeah, it's kind ofpast due, let's have that.
And it's really because of hisautism that he's in such a
(26:07):
unique position to be able tosee her through different eyes,
through a different lens, loveher and appreciate her in ways
that others haven't and it'scompletely transformative for
her and then the way that shecares for him back is equally
transformative for him, but indifferent ways.
(26:28):
So that's one of the things Ilove about the movie.
I you know, as I've shown it toin different venues and done
Q&As in different movie theaters.
Autistic folks have come up tome afterwards or talk during the
Q&A to say how much they'veappreciated it and could even
relate to the struggles of themain character.
(26:50):
But my hope is that the personwatching the film will want to
go on that journey and just asthey grow emotionally,
relationally, that maybe we asthe audience members can be
moved and change a little bit aswe see that modeled as well.
C.S. Wyatt (27:10):
But people have also responded positively to the
changes that Violet experiences.
Allen Wolf (27:18):
Yes, we did a Q&A in New York City.
This is opening weekend.
It was playing in theatersaround the US and I started off
doing a premiere in Seattle onThursday, los Angeles on Friday,
new York City on Saturday andthen Dayton Ohio, my hometown on
(27:40):
Sunday.
And while I was in New Yorkdoing the Q&A after the film, a
woman raised her hand and toldthe audience that she is a
former Violet and she loved thefilm.
It was accurate to what sheexperienced, but then she also.
She had written notes down onher phone and read them to all
(28:06):
of us and she said that she wasvery much moved by the message
of the film that everyone hasthe right to be loved.
I actually just found the quotethat she sent to me.
This is what she said.
She said the movie was all abouthope and reminded me of the
importance of love and grace.
We are all different anddeserve the love of God and true
(28:28):
love.
This movie showed theimportance of loving people,
understanding people for whothey are and where they are, and
loving them.
Anyway.
We both held back tears, kasonand I, because we were doing the
Q&A together, but it was somoving.
I mean I love that.
I love that people watching thefilm where they're coming from,
(28:52):
if they've experienced this ornot, that they're identifying
with those characters and theirjourneys and they're being moved
by it.
It's impacting them.
I mean there's no other hopethat I could have, really, as
both the author and thefilmmakers, that it impacts
people's lives and I love that.
C.S. Wyatt (29:08):
You don't get many movies that are going to say
there's a main character who's aprostitute and then the movie
is positively reviewed byfaith-based and family-focused
organizations.
And yet I've looked at some ofthe reviews online.
You had the review from Doveand some other sources that
tells you that this is a movieabout acceptance and not just
(29:30):
the experiences of the humantrafficking in the prostitution.
Allen Wolf (29:35):
Right yeah.
C.S. Wyatt (29:37):
That has to be rewarding, that this has been
widely accepted by people whomay at first wonder why are you
making a movie about aprostitute?
Allen Wolf (29:45):
Right, right.
Well, I think that for a lot ofus, when you hear that word or
you hear someone being denotedas a prostitute, a lot of images
get through your head.
And I think for a lot of peoplethere's a lot of judgment and
they think, oh, that person'sprobably that because of
something they've done orthey've chosen that for their
(30:08):
career or something.
And that was kind of where Iwas coming from when I first
started researching the film,because my perception of someone
who's in prostitution was verymuch in line with what I had
seen in most movies, where it'sthe empowered woman who's out
there.
This is her own choice, this isher way of making a living.
But then when I did theresearch, I found that I mean
(30:30):
nearly 100% of the time theseare women who've been abused,
who've experienced trauma.
They're not there by choice.
I mean who would do that bychoice?
And even the people who wouldmaybe publicly say, oh no, this
is my choice, I'm doing thisbecause it's my body.
If you do a little digging,they nearly 100% of the time
themselves were abused orexperienced trauma.
(30:51):
So then you have to askyourself how much of a choice is
this?
Are they really making this outof a healthy whole person.
So I realized no, that's notthe case and so that really
informed the creation of thatcharacter.
But I found early on in theearly test screenings of the
movie you don't find out, youdidn't originally find out how
(31:16):
Violet got to that place in herlife until nearly the end of the
movie.
That's how it is in the book.
But when I did test screeningsI discovered that audiences
couldn't really relate her andcouldn't connect with her until
I moved that scene up toward thevery beginning of the movie.
Till now it happens about 30minutes in.
(31:36):
You see what happened to her.
Once people experienced thatthey realized wow, I am rooting
for this character, I want thebest for this character and I
think it's just similar that wayin life that once we understand
what happens to not only thisperson but anyone who's going
through something that we as asociety might judge and say, ooh
(31:58):
, look at that person and thechoices they're making, once you
understand the background andwhat they've been through, it
really does bring a lot ofcompassion, a lot of empathy and
it can bring us to a differentplace.
So I did appreciate thereviewers who saw that in that
character, and the audiencemembers too, that they really
saw.
Okay, this is not quite what Ithought it was, maybe.
(32:19):
I came into this and a lot ofpeople after watching the film
said you know, I want to dosomething, I want to be a part
of changing this, and so they'dcontact their local
organizations or they'd go onour website, thesoundofvioletcom
, where you can get involved,and they'd make a difference.
That was very inspiring to me.
C.S. Wyatt (32:37):
Well, you said you did three premieres plus one in
your hometown of Dayton, and Irecall from our conversation
that is where you got your startas a filmmaker.
Yes, the premiere comes rightat the I wouldn't say the end,
but towards the edge ofreopening with COVID.
What was that experience like?
Premiering a movie as we'recoming out of the pandemic
(33:00):
trying to get this, you know,launched into theaters.
How difficult and challengingwas that, not just for you but
for your cast and all of thosepeople supporting this effort.
Allen Wolf (33:11):
Well, covid delayed our movie by a couple of years.
So in a few weeks a series ofvideos are gonna be coming out
that show behind the scenes howthe movie was made and when you
see that no one's wearing a maskbecause COVID hadn't happened
yet.
So by the time we actuallyrecorded the orchestral
(33:33):
soundtrack with a 52 pieceorchestra about a month before
COVID hit, and then the moviegot derailed because theaters
closed and we knew that itwasn't gonna be seeing the light
anytime soon.
So we first showed at the end.
It first came out in theatersat the end of April and 2022.
And it was a little strange,like I, people were just kind of
(33:56):
coming out of the darkness,coming out into public again.
I remember people I invited tocome to the premiere.
Some people said, no, I'm stillnot doing anything in public.
And you know, I understood, youknow where people were.
But I think enough people feltlike either that it wasn't the
(34:16):
threat that it was or they,frankly, had already gotten
COVID and felt like, okay, I'vealready been through this.
I think I'll be fine that theycame out in support of the film
and it made such a difference.
I mean, it's really fun toexperience the movie with a
crowd of people.
I'm encouraging people to watchthe movie and invite their
(34:38):
friends, their neighbors, theirfamily over, because there are
some really great issues in thefilm to talk about as a group.
It's a great movie night tohave.
It's a great opportunity toconnect with people that you
haven't connected with beforeEven your neighbors, maybe that
you haven't spent time with.
Like who doesn't want to comeover and watch a movie and then
have a great talk about itafterwards?
(34:59):
So I'm hoping that in that waytoo, the movie will continue to
bring people together, continueto help build a community.
But COVID definitely impactedus in the timing of it, but
ultimately, you know, I thinkeverything works out as a
certain way for a reason, and Iwas super thankful that we got
it all filmed and all the musicrecorded before everything shut
(35:20):
down.
C.S. Wyatt (35:22):
You mentioned the music you worked with.
Conrad Pope and indie filmsreally struggle to get original
music or original arrangements.
Both can be a challenge, andeven some popular shows when
they go to DVD or they getre-released, they have to change
the music because they'rerights issues, whatever.
Music is so key to film, Ibelieve from the days of silent
(35:46):
film when the music was theemotion.
This is one of the fewindependent films I've seen
where you even have, I believe,cds of the music.
Allen Wolf (35:56):
Right, right.
C.S. Wyatt (35:58):
That really I'm a sound person.
I love sound.
I'm a sound is my thing.
The audience I'll give you somebehind the scenes here if
you're listening to this podcast.
I just came from school of rockwith my daughter who plays
keyboard and drums and she isautistic and where she fits in
is she can play the drums andshe can play keyboard, and so
(36:19):
she's at school of rock here incentral Texas.
Music is so important to us.
It is how we communicate, howour emotions are conveyed.
We think in terms of songs.
I'll name a song to her to tellher how I'm feeling and she
gets it.
What led you to thatrelationship with Colored Pope,
who has worked on major projects?
(36:41):
He also contributed to yourfirst film.
Again, music being so key to me, I really appreciate an indie
film with this quality of soundproduction.
Allen Wolf (36:50):
Well, yes, our sound mixer, who ultimately mixed all
the sounds, was nominated foran Academy Award for past work
that he's done.
And our composer, conrad Pope,has worked with John Williams,
danny Elfman, alexander De Pla.
He's worked with some of thetop composers in the world and I
(37:13):
was very fortunate to meet himbefore I did my previous film,
The Sound of Violet, and Iwanted a Bernard Herman-esque
score because it's a very kindof Hitchcockian story and so it
was important to me to have anorchestral score for that.
And he did such an amazing joband we got a soundtrack deal for
(37:34):
that movie as well that I knewfrom the beginning I wanted to
work with Conrad on this movie,and so I first sent him the
novel.
He read the novel many yearsago.
We had been talking about thescore for years, so he's just
such a beautiful storytellerwith music that I thought, wow,
(37:56):
to have him partner with me andcome alongside this film could
just add just layers ofdimensions to the story.
I wanted him so badly to benominated for an Academy Award.
That was my goal and we butunfortunately we just got pushed
out by major films.
(38:16):
I mean, I didn't realize that.
I was a little naive going intoit because I thought, oh, it's
about the score and howbrilliant the score is, and we
sent out the score and links tothe score to Academy members.
But unfortunately we just gotpushed aside by just major films
that had just multimilliondollar budgets to be able to
promote their scores and theirmovies.
But that's how good I thoughtthe music was.
(38:38):
I just thought he did such anamazing job and that's one thing
I hear over and over frompeople who see the movie is how
much they love the music in themovie and to me it's what really
helps people to connect to themovie emotionally.
So I listened to the soundtrackmyself many times.
It's just, my kids have evenfigured out some of the songs on
(39:02):
the piano, so it was a realblessing.
I was so fortunate to work withConrad and I hope to work with
him again on my next film.
C.S. Wyatt (39:11):
It has been a pleasure to have you back on the
podcast.
If you're interested in moreinformation about Allen's work,
you can go to allenwolf.
com.
If you're interested inwatching the movie, I suggest
myself.
I always end up buying aBlu-ray just because things go
on and off streaming services.
You can do that atthesoundofvioletcom, so it's
(39:36):
just like it soundsThesoundofvioletcom.
You can purchase the DVD,Blu-ray or the soundtrack.
I think the soundtrack isdefinitely a standalone purchase
.
It's really a beautifularrangement.
Is there anything else that youwould like the audience to know
about this incredible projectand how it has turned out?
Allen Wolf (39:57):
Well, I'd love to hear what your audience thinks.
So, if you watch the film, youcan reach me through our website
, thesoundofvioletcom, and Ihave to spell out violet, it's
like the flower, because peoplesometimes think I'm saying the
sound of violence, but it's likeThe Sound of Violet, like the
color.
So if you go tothesoundofviolet.
com, I'd love to hear what youthink.
(40:18):
So please reach out to methrough the website and you'll
get to see the trailer.
On the website.
There are links to every placeyou can stream the movie or
watch the movie, and we're goingto be posting behind the scenes
footage and how the movie wasmade too, which is completely
fascinating.
So I'd love to hear from youraudience, I'd love to hear what
you all think of the film.
C.S. Wyatt (40:39):
But I really want to thank you for joining us on
Perspectives on Neurodiversity.
I do want to remind people thatindependent film, the
independent arts in general,really struggle and a lot of
people will wonder gee, should Ispend the $5 to rent?
Should I spend the $15 to buysomething?
You have to understand thatindependent film right now and
(41:01):
musicians, everyone right now isreally struggled to get back on
their feet after the pandemic.
If you want high qualityoriginal works of art, no matter
what the art is, you have topay for it.
And I know that sounds horrible, but artists need to eat.
We do consume food, we do needshelter.
We're hungry, we are hungry.
(41:21):
So I have no problem saying ifyou watch the trailer, you will
probably end up wanting to rentor buy The Sound of Violet.
So go to thesoundofviolet.
com, watch that trailer, listento it, see it.
Then if you rent it, you stillmight buy it.
You might as well buy it, right?
I mean, come on, Come on.
But that's my own personal view.
(41:43):
I do appreciate listeners ofthe Perspectives on
Neurodiversity podcast.
And again, Allen, it has been apleasure to talk to you again.
Allen Wolf (41:51):
It's been great to talk with you.
Thanks so much for having me,Scott.
I appreciate it.
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