October 17, 2025 • 23 mins
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
But there's a lot of people that are in the room that
are seeking business advice.
They're seeking advice forsales.
And that's how we're going tostart this podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:06):
Excellent segue.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
Yeah.
So here we go on this episode ofthe Nerdbrand Podcast.
We're going to discuss, we'regoing to discuss sales.
Um, when is it really a sale?
And um, we really do need tohave this conversation, I feel
like, again, because I do knowthat everybody out there is
looking for leads, they'relooking for sales, they're
looking for this, but we need tostart defining these a little
better because I'm noticingeverybody has a different
(00:29):
definition for all of this.
So let's go.
Let's talk about this.
(00:56):
Let's do it.
So let's start out with thedefinition problem.
Too many folks in businessconfuse leads with sales.
A lead is not a sale.
A lead is interest, a sale iscash in hand.
unknown (01:08):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (01:08):
And I'll even go one further.
Leads are not prospects.
You know, prospect is a moredefined, you've had the first
interaction, you have an idea ofthe specific needs.
Leads are, hey, I'm interestedin you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
You don't really know what problem you're
solving.
Prospects, you do, and you'reworking toward that solution.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Funny thing is, after you do three episodes in a
studio with uh with Danielle,um, she starts taking off
clothes.
I don't know.
She's fully clothed, but listen,if we're recording-sweater has
has disappeared.
I mean, she's covered, she'sclothed, she's not naked, but
the sweater's disappeared, ashirt has disappeared, and I'm
starting to wonder if my airconditioner needs to be
addressed.
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Well, look, okay, here's the philosophy.
What's going on?
If we are recording more thanone episode and we're gonna have
video.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
There is video of this, by the way.
So there's proof.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (01:57):
Like there, if we're gonna have video and we're gonna
have clips, then you know, wedon't want to have we want to
make sure things look different.
So then when we promote it weekafter week, there's a little bit
of a difference.
So a different shirt.
So yeah, no, I've packed asweatshirt and then I have a
t-shirt, and then I had a croptop underneath.
So there we go.
SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
It's hilarious.
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
You know what?
There's a method to thismadness, all right?
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
I do believe you, I believe I just kind of let you
do you.
I really do.
And I know that I don't need toget in the way.
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Well, and the best part is is like you know me long
enough that you're like, okay,she's a little crazy.
I get it.
But then once you see the workand once you see what I've done,
you're like, okay, yep, no,yeah, okay, yeah, no, she was
right.
It looks good.
I get it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
I see it now.
SPEAKER_02 (02:40):
I see it now.
I might not understand it, but Isee it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Yeah, and that's kind of what I did.
I just kind of let it go.
It's like, all right.
SPEAKER_02 (02:46):
You've learned to just let me do me.
SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Um, anyways, you don't reallyhave uh a deal.
Uh so there is a difference, andand to kind of like uh at a
thousand-foot scale is likethere is a difference between a
contact and a deal.
Uh, and there are two differentfunnels.
There's a contact funnel andthen there's a deal funnel.
And you told me to share this.
When somebody walks intoWalmart, that is not a prospect.
(03:08):
That is not even a deal, it'snot a lead, it's nothing.
It is a person that's browsing.
And then you have the prospectuntil they grab a cart, they are
now a prospect.
They become fully a lead whenthe moment they start to commit
and go through the checkout, andthen it's a sale when stuff's in
the bag and they're going totheir car.
unknown (03:27):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
So if you're not following that on retail and
you're trying to apply that to abusiness you own with a service,
there's your disconnect.
Absolutely.
Stop looking for sales, stoplooking for leads, look for
contacts, look for people thatknow people, or that person may
be that person that becomes asale.
SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
But if you're gonna look for leads, look for
prospects.
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
Yeah, you're starting at the wrong end of the
spectrum.
SPEAKER_02 (03:48):
Right.
Don't just search for anyone andeveryone because you're not
gonna be able to serve anyoneand everyone and solve
everyone's problems.
Look for prospects, look for theperson who they've got the
shopping cart and they'rebrowsing, they know they're
looking for milk, so they'regoing to the dairy aisle.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I've had people come sixmonths later or even a year
later to me and say, hey, Jason,I want to do this project with
you.
Can you guys help out?
Yeah.
They didn't, it took a year.
Like it takes a long game to dowhat we're doing, but we're a
different business model animal.
So, what is your business model?
What does that look like?
You have to start a little bitwith that.
So the corporate truth ispipelines don't pay bills,
purchase orders do.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
Not to mention, too, I'm gonna also mention this
depending on the industry, uhthe people you meet, it's always
worth networking.
They you might they might nothave a need right then and
there, but like you said, sixmonths later to a year, they do.
Yeah.
So, like, you know, yeah, theymight not.
I'm gonna pick on nerd brandbecause I can.
Um, they might not have a needfor nerd brand when you meet
them.
But then six months later, whenthey're like, hey, we need to do
(04:45):
a new website or we need torevamp some stuff, now you do.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
Yeah, I mean, we've reworked copy on a website
before, and um, they're like,Man, that I like how that sounds
and how that reads.
And I'm like, yeah, becauseprofessional wrote it.
But then also, let's watch howGoogle responds.
And then they're like, I didn'tknow I was getting SEO.
And I'm like, if you're messingwith us, we're looking at it
holistically.
So the copy and the professionalphotography, Google's gonna look
(05:10):
at that and go, like, I likewhat I see because I know that's
different.
It's not AI generated, it's notstock, it's not this, it's not
BS.
It's it makes a difference andit can change a brand, but it's
not gonna happen if I start on aMonday, it's not gonna happen by
Friday.
SPEAKER_02 (05:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
And that's the the other thing we gotta get past.
SPEAKER_02 (05:26):
But otherwise, that's you gotta look at it from
like a 30-day, 60-day, 90-dayperiod.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
Usually about a 90-day period is gonna what's
gonna be minimum to gatherenough data to kind of see how
somebody responds to an ad youjust threw out there.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
Um, six months is really going to be your marker
for actually seeing if it'sgonna work and if remarketing
kicks in on the paid ad channelside.
SPEAKER_02 (05:45):
But I've enough data to know.
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Yeah, the data, it's always the data, but it's how
how the data is used and howlong it takes, and that's
usually where people kind ofdon't have the patience.
And that's why I think everybodywants a sale, everybody wants a
lead, but these things are notbinary, and we need to start
disentangling all of thesethings because in a contact, you
could have a contact thatbecomes a um a prospect.
(06:07):
Like an initial contact, you cancall them a subscriber, you can
call them, I just know the bank,I just met the person, whatever
you want to call it.
That that's that's subjective.
But objectively, it's like theybecome a prospect when you start
to identify that there'ssomething that they're looking
for to get fixed that maybe youcan help with.
Right.
They become a full-on lead whenthat interest grows in you
(06:28):
fixing that problem.
So the first thing that happenswhen you start to get to that
point and they become a lead,you should be asking, like, are
you ready for a proposal?
So your first meeting is, okay,let's do a discovery meeting.
SPEAKER_02 (06:40):
Well, even if it's just getting to know you,
sometimes it's not even But it'snot a one-to-one.
SPEAKER_00 (06:45):
I want to emphasize that.
SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
Oh no, for sure.
It's more or less like I hateone-to-ones.
You and me both.
I'll work my way to aone-to-one, but if it's the
first way I meet you, it's justso intimidating.
Yeah.
But um, but like, yeah, like yousaid, discovery, but it's also
the getting to know.
Like, I gotta learn about youbefore I can figure out how to
solve your problem.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
Yeah, and then once you gotta tell me things.
SPEAKER_02 (07:05):
Right.
And then once I figure it out,then I can start.
Okay, now here's some ideas.
Here now the wheels are turning.
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
Yeah.
I mean, a lot of times peoplewill say, I want to do this, I
want to do that.
Okay, cool.
Well, why don't we schedule ameeting to initial discovery
meeting and then let's let'sreconvene on that.
You want to do that?
Cool.
Okay, now they're a prospect.
So I'm like, okay, so I'mprospecting them still because I
gotta go to the internets and Igotta go research their stuff
and see if what is out therealigns with what they're
thinking and what they're whatthey think they are seeing, and
(07:33):
nine times out of ten, it's not.
Like I sit in front of peopleall the time and I Google them,
and then their reaction to it islike I didn't know that was
there.
And I was like, that's what Imean.
SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
So dangers of online when you post it or if you do
something, it's always there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
Well, I had one meeting where somebody, I
Googled their names, and it'sjust a branded search, is what
we call it, right?
And so I Google the brand andthen they looked at it and
they're like, Well, that's whyI'm getting phone calls about
all this and that.
And I was like, Yes.
Sorry, you're not the only onenamed blankety blank that's out
there.
And then, you know, so that'sthat.
And so that initial discoverywas there.
So then from there, we couldsay, like, okay, let's have a
(08:08):
second meeting.
Do you want me to develop aproposal for you on how we can
fix this perception or how wecan pivot that?
That's an invalid question toask in that initial meeting.
If they say yes, now you got adarn opportunity, you can jump
and leapfrog from prospect leadto opportunity in that moment.
If they say, Yeah, I'd like tosee what this looks like and a
cost, and make sure youemphasize I'm going, this is a
(08:29):
transaction.
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
This is not a feel-good moment where we do a
one-to-one and get to know oneanother and do all that.
We are getting to know oneanother.
This is a transaction.
So um, if that's the case, yougo ahead and you give them a
proposal and then you go overthat and then you see if that
aligns with what they initiallythought and approached you for.
And maybe you have to go backand do another one because maybe
something wasn't in alignment.
That's fair.
SPEAKER_01 (08:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
But you can't keep that cycle going.
Right.
So um, I think that that thatall happens, and that is not a
sale.
SPEAKER_02 (08:58):
Nope.
Believe me, if if that was, thenI'd be making a heck of a lot
more money than I am.
And you would too.
SPEAKER_00 (09:08):
Yeah, I mean, a contact is gonna go through,
depending on how you have yourfunnel set up, you're gonna have
a the the the prospect, you'regonna have lead, and then you're
gonna have opportunity.
By the time you hit opportunity,now you have a deal.
So then you go through the dealstage because you have different
stages.
You have different funnels.
You have one for contacts, onefor deals.
The first deal stage is thatinitial meeting.
Hopefully, you have clarified inthe contact stage that we are
(09:30):
going to now approach atransaction, right?
You're in agreement that we'regonna I'm gonna give you a
document, it's gonna have aprice on it, it's gonna have the
details of what you asked me forfor you to either sign at that
moment or whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (09:42):
If it doesn't align, then you have a second meeting.
And then the third meeting,hopefully you have either in the
second or third meeting and thatspan, you can have a signature.
Yeah.
Once you get that ink, saleclosed, you won.
That's it.
SPEAKER_02 (09:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
Um, that's hard to do.
SPEAKER_02 (09:56):
And um especially in today's world because everything
is so gosh darn expensive.
SPEAKER_00 (10:00):
Yeah, yeah.
But I wish people would stopasking for leads because they
don't know you.
It's not a lead.
They may know somebody thatneeds what you know, but they
just don't know you unless theyspecifically reach out to you
and say, This is what I need andwhat it looks like you can now
it's a lead.
Right.
That's when it's a lead.
And that can happen on yourwebsite on a contact form.
That's just my perspective fromseeing this over the last 10, 20
(10:22):
years.
SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
Yeah, I mean, it's good to have it so that way if
people aren't sure how tocontact you, or if people are
like you and me, where it'slike, hey, I'd rather just type
out a form.
Yeah.
Just have written communicationversus having to deal with
people, then great, that's anoption.
But like, you know, you can'tjust take that as gospel as
like, oh, it's a writtenquestion, it's a written thing.
(10:43):
Yeah.
That means it's gonna happennow.
SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
Yeah, no, I get contacts because of the
service-based.
If you're a service-based in uhbusiness, you may get a contact
and they're asking quite theydon't they don't know.
They're still kind of trying tofigure out if you can solve
their problem.
So you still have variousdifferent funnels to go through,
but you have to have somethingset up so that you can start to
regulate and qualify people thatwill frankly waste your time.
Um and they don't may they maynot mean to, right?
(11:08):
But it is a distraction that cantake away opportunity for you to
make money.
SPEAKER_02 (11:11):
Right.
And if anything, you know, onthe moments that hey, like you
just said, they might notrealize that it's not gonna work
out, that's okay.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
Because if maybe it's a referral, maybe I'm like,
uh, maybe you need this person,not me.
SPEAKER_02 (11:22):
Well, that, and then also it can just be, hey, this
doesn't align.
So then you're not wasting yourtime with something that isn't
aligning.
Like if you if you figure it outpretty quick, then it's like,
okay, cool.
Not in our sector where you'redoing your thing, I'm doing
mine, cool.
And you can kind of cut it thereand then focus on prospects and
(11:44):
focus on clients versus justlike putting all your time and
energy into leads.
Yes, it's important, but youhave to be able to balance that
energy.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
Well, that's like uh empty-handed selling.
Um you can't sell vapor, peoplesee right through it, right?
So the customers they want proofor and even customers become
they can fall back intoaccount-based sales, and which
is really good, and that canactually support your business.
But you know, you have toestablish customer base,
obviously, first for that, whichis coveted by everybody, but
that takes time, it can takeyears.
(12:14):
Um, but they still want proof.
So you still have to provideexamples and case studies and
real product service that theycan touch, test, and try and
feel.
It just it is just that way.
Um, you know, I've I've gotsomebody right now that's going
down the path of rebranding, andum it's gotta be they they
really can't see it.
They're a visual person, andthat's fair.
Um, they work in an industrythat's very visual, but I can't
(12:35):
show them the visuals right nowbecause once we do, they'll
start to realize, oh, this iswhat this is.
We're not redoing the logo,we're not touching the logo.
There's too many shirts and andand signage, and and that's
expensive.
So, what can we do?
SPEAKER_02 (12:48):
Not to mention you want to stay recognizable.
SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
Right.
We and that's recognizable, sowe're not touching that.
There's other things that arechanging.
And so um, Walmart just didthis.
You know, they still have thesame logo, but they've tweaked
the font, they've tweaked thelogo, and then they have a sub
brand called Walmart Plus theyjust rolled out.
And so there's little thingslike that that may happen, and
so you can't really communicatethat across a conference table
(13:12):
until it's done, and then youcan kind of walk through that,
but there has to be a commitmentto go down that path to want to
do that.
And and for us, that's where wehave to ask the business um, you
know, is this gonna be a deadend?
Is it is this gonna work?
You know, are you committed todo you kind of understand that
we're gonna go through this?
SPEAKER_01 (13:28):
Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Yeah, so you can't sell empty-handed.
You've you've got to providesome examples so that they can
kind of get an idea.
SPEAKER_02 (13:34):
Right exactly.
And especially and that'sespecially relevant.
And you mentioned it, but inservice places, I mean, like,
yeah, if you make shirts and youmake things, you can bring it to
the table, like you know, if youwould do a promotional, here's
an item, here's a sample.
You know, with service, you haveto have a really solid
portfolio.
You know, if you're if you're agraphic designer, you gotta have
(13:56):
here's examples of my work.
Here are companies that I'veworked with and get the approval
of, hey, can I slap your logo onmy website?
Which by the way, can I slapyour logo on my website?
But you know, you gotta be ableto do that.
Um, and have the backing of Iwork with people.
And you know, even if what theywant is different than what
(14:18):
you've done before, you at leasthave to show that potential.
You know, you might you mighthave built, you know, I'm gonna
use um I don't know, I'm tryingto think of a decent example.
Uh you can, you know, renovatekitchens, yeah, but the moment
you're like somebody goes in islike, hey, so like you can
renovate kitchens.
Do you do bathrooms?
(14:38):
And you know, if you can and youwant to go down that route,
cool.
But you have to have here's whatI've done with kitchens, and
here's how I can spin that intoa bathroom.
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
Yeah, but to your point of a portfolio, it's
social proof.
unknown (14:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (14:50):
It really is.
SPEAKER_02 (14:50):
It really is.
You gotta establish credibilityand legitimacy.
SPEAKER_00 (14:53):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, show off you can usethere was uh you and I were
going back and forth about doingsomething for free and to get
established.
I think for freelancers theygotta adopt that more.
I think I mean we may disagreewith this, but when you're
starting out, nobody knows whoyou are.
They don't know if you're anygood.
SPEAKER_02 (15:11):
I think it's a fine line.
I think it's one of thosethings, and it's probably also
because of how do I phrase it?
Um, I think it's partiallybecause of my experiences as an
early professional.
Um, there were a lot of timeswhere I would get thrown into
(15:32):
situations that, well, I'm I'mthe greener employee.
This is what you have to do.
I can't fight it, otherwise, youknow, it's not gonna look good
on me, or I might lose my job.
So, okay, I'm gonna do it.
And then hindsight being 2020,it's like, okay, yeah, no, that
wasn't my responsibility.
I did it and it turned outgreat, but like I should have
gotten paid more, or I shouldhave advocated for this and
(15:53):
that.
That's how it's scope creepalmost because it's like it's
you gotta find that fine line asa freelancer of okay, yeah, I'm
willing to go a little bit extrafor the sake of getting my name
out there, for the sake of theportfolio.
But you have to be so carefuland emphasize that, hey, this is
this is for this.
And you know, if you you know, Iwould appreciate you spreading
(16:16):
my name out there, but you know,don't go telling people, oh,
she's gonna do this, this, this,and this, because this is a
special scenario for you.
So then that way, if a referralone to two years later comes
down the line, they're notexpecting you to do exactly what
you did when you were startingout.
Because at that point, it'slike, okay, you do have some
experience and there is a levelof charge reasonably, but also
charge what you're worth.
(16:36):
Well, so it's in the right.
And that's why I say that's whyI say it's a fine balance
because I completely agree.
You gotta start somewhere, yougotta do a free internship,
you've got to, you know, youmight not be able to charge what
you want, but it's a sake ofstarting out, you gotta do a
free project or a wholesale costproject.
Yeah, you gotta do it to get outthere because there's so many
(16:57):
out there.
It's just that fine line of, andthat's where I'm where my
emphasis is is just make surethat you're not getting taken
advantage of.
Because I think that when a freeI've been taken advantage of a
lot.
SPEAKER_00 (17:09):
Well, and that that happens when you're dealing
directly with a business.
As an agency, we can kind ofinsulate our contractors.
SPEAKER_02 (17:15):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (17:15):
Um, an example of that is if I hire a graphic
designer and I need um Hi, howare you?
Hey.
If I need Google Ads made, okay,there is a brand guide, there is
a look.
I have a creative director.
He's gonna get very involved inwhat your ads are gonna look
like, and he's gonna not be thisperson that's like, oh, move it
two pixels to the left.
He ain't that kind of he's notthat kind of creative director.
SPEAKER_02 (17:36):
I love Mitch.
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
Um, yeah, he's amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (17:38):
Shout out to Mitch.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
He'll come in and he'll say, like, uh, I don't
know about that button there.
Um, you know, maybe we don'thave it say that.
Maybe we say something otherthan submit.
Like, he's kind of a littledifferent now what he does, but
he knows what he's doing.
Yeah, it's all about for him.
He's looking at proportions,he's looking at, you know, the
composition of the thing.
SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
There's a difference between criticism and judgment.
He criticizes, he doesn't judge.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Yeah, so he comes in and it's like he understands
this ad's got to convert, andthen I have to present the ad to
the client, and the client's gotto approve it.
And if they don't like what theysee, there's a problem.
Meantime, as a designer thatI've never worked with before,
you want me to pay you$500 to doa set of Google ads.
I can't do that because I don'tknow what you're gonna give me.
(18:19):
I know you have examples ofprevious ads that you've done
and they look pretty, but we saythis for a reason, and pretty is
easy, smart is hard.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:28):
So we need to know did they work?
SPEAKER_02 (18:30):
And exactly, and that's a different scenario
where it's like, okay, whenyou're starting out because I'll
pay you if you suck.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
That's fine.
I mean, I gotta do something tolearn.
SPEAKER_02 (18:39):
It might just not be a reoccurring.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
I may not have you do it the next time, I may have
you do something else.
I'm going through that kind ofnow, but it's just like I gotta
know can you do that?
Can Mitch work with you?
Can that can that get fixed?
Can you not?
I mean, you kind of did it withsome ads that we needed or
social posts that we needed.
You kind of got a littlecreative with the placement of
of the text on the image, and Iknew right away the client would
(19:02):
be like, WTF is that right, andI would have had him my butt off
where it and I was like, I yeah,no, no, no, no, no.
Here's what we did in the past,this is what they like.
Yeah, I don't want to deviatebecause it just makes problems.
SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
Right.
And when you're a freelancer,sometimes you don't always have
that context.
So it's just a matter of hereand it it's draft.
Yeah, here's the first draft.
SPEAKER_00 (19:22):
And Mitch will do that.
He'll be like, mm-mm, no.
SPEAKER_02 (19:24):
Yeah, no, and and that's totally fair.
I mean, as a freelancer, andespecially if you're in the
design realm, nothing you makeis gonna always be first
go-around.
I always go in expecting thereto be a bunch of a bunch of
changes that need to be made.
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:37):
And especially when I'm being freelanced out for
stuff, because I'm not the onethat's working with the client.
I don't have the context of thisis what they want.
I have examples, but there mightbe things that I'm like, oh, we
might need to switch thisdifferent.
And sometimes it's like, okay,this is a different thing, so
that works.
And then other times it's like,no, we need it to be carbon
copy, just swap out the picture.
(19:58):
Yeah.
All right, 10-4, got it.
Yeah, they have this, yeah.
And the only way to know likethat, yeah.
And the only way to really knowis number one, to have that
relationship and be open to thatcommunication, but then also not
to take that stuff personally.
I never take if it's judgmentand it's you know, you can tell
it's with negative intent, I'llget I'll get a little hurt.
But like if you're just beingcritical and you're just like,
(20:19):
the client's not gonna likethat.
unknown (20:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (20:21):
Yeah, that change it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
Yeah, got it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
But usually I usually tell you why.
SPEAKER_02 (20:24):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
I mean if I have the time, like I'm not a creative
director.
This is why I pay Mitch to dowhat Mitch does.
SPEAKER_02 (20:30):
Well, and Mitch will even tell me why later.
It's one of those things thatyou might I might not know why
now, but I'll eventually findout later.
And God forbid, if I ever didn'tfind out, I don't care.
I wouldn't.
SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
But that thing that you did, um, either way, that
color scheme and how it's laidout, that's what people like to
click on too.
Right.
We know that for a fact frommetrics.
SPEAKER_02 (20:46):
Exactly.
There's gonna be differentperspectives because like you're
gonna see certain things, I'mgonna see certain things.
So it's kind of finding thathappy medium when the worlds
collide.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
Yeah, yeah.
It's the colors and what you didwith it and everything else.
That that's that's the the proofof that.
And so, yeah, but yeah, it's oneof those things where it's like
I can't really talk about thestory, but I met a young
entrepreneur and he had a greatidea, and I thought, well, maybe
go do this and but do it forfree.
But because of the brand that Irecommended to do it for, they
have multiple locations, itwould be high exposure, it would
(21:14):
be a great case study, and itcould attract the next one like
it, which is really what youwant.
And now you're getting paid.
So that's a loss leader in amassive way, but it is something
that uh young entrepreneurs needto consider when starting out
because exactly no, you got toshow people what you can do, and
if you can't, no one's gonnahire you.
So if you're out there andyou're listening to this episode
(21:34):
and you're like, wait a minute,I'm gonna go to Lost and Found
and see if something hasNerdbrand on it, please let me
know because it's probably myfault that it's there and we
forgot it.
Um, because that happened, Iguarantee it, at least at some
event venues that we've been to.
Um, you know, and and that'ssomething that's um, you know,
we've got we've had brochuresmade, we've had other things
done.
Those are a little bit moreexpensive, but at the end of the
(21:56):
day, you know, you kind of haveto you want to the giveaways are
always a struggle to figure outwhat to do.
SPEAKER_02 (22:00):
Well, and you can't just hand out promotional swag.
You have to also have like thewhat's the word I want to look
for?
The professional stuff to gowith it.
Like you can't just hand out ifyou're at a a booth, you can't
just hand out the sunglasses andcall it good.
You gotta have the brochure thatgoes with it because you gotta
have something that establisheswho you are, what you do.
Even if it's like I mean withrealtors, they hand out
(22:23):
promotional stuff at all theiropen houses all the time.
You always see a business card.
Yeah, you gotta have some ofthose things.
Otherwise, it's just like, okay,now we're just handing out
things with no strategy.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you've listened this longon this episode, we appreciate
it.
Um, we do have this is a longone.
Yeah, it's a long one.
So we have uh we do have aPatreon, and um, you know, we
will figure out probably in thefuture like how do we do that to
make money.
Uh monetized channels are alwaysgood for revenue.
So we are looking at that now,and we've been offered some uh
monetization on a couple of ourchannels already by networks,
and so I'm reading through thatto make sure that you know it's
(22:56):
not a giveaway of our identityand property because that can
happen.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
Yeah, so uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's uh there's a lot of thatthat could go on.
Uh, there's a famous comedian,won't say his name, but happen
to him.
Dave Chappelle.
Anyhow.
unknown (23:11):
Chappelle.
SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Yeah.
Uh so yeah.
Anyways, if you enjoyed thisepisode, go to
NerdbrandAgency.com and slashpodcast, and you know, uh
follow, see some more episodes.
Tell us what you think, drop usa line on Facebooks, and we'll
see you next week.
Keep your nerdbrand strong.
But there's a lot of people that are in the room that
are seeking business advice.
They're seeking advice forsales.
And that's how we're going tostart this podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:06):
Excellent segue.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
Yeah.
So here we go on this episode ofthe Nerdbrand Podcast.
We're going to discuss, we'regoing to discuss sales.
Um, when is it really a sale?
And um, we really do need tohave this conversation, I feel
like, again, because I do knowthat everybody out there is
looking for leads, they'relooking for sales, they're
looking for this, but we need tostart defining these a little
better because I'm noticingeverybody has a different
(00:29):
definition for all of this.
So let's go.
Let's talk about this.
(00:56):
Let's do it.
So let's start out with thedefinition problem.
Too many folks in businessconfuse leads with sales.
A lead is not a sale.
A lead is interest, a sale iscash in hand.
unknown (01:08):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (01:08):
And I'll even go one further.
Leads are not prospects.
You know, prospect is a moredefined, you've had the first
interaction, you have an idea ofthe specific needs.
Leads are, hey, I'm interestedin you.
SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
You don't really know what problem you're
solving.
Prospects, you do, and you'reworking toward that solution.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Funny thing is, after you do three episodes in a
studio with uh with Danielle,um, she starts taking off
clothes.
I don't know.
She's fully clothed, but listen,if we're recording-sweater has
has disappeared.
I mean, she's covered, she'sclothed, she's not naked, but
the sweater's disappeared, ashirt has disappeared, and I'm
starting to wonder if my airconditioner needs to be
addressed.
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Well, look, okay, here's the philosophy.
What's going on?
If we are recording more thanone episode and we're gonna have
video.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
There is video of this, by the way.
So there's proof.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (01:57):
Like there, if we're gonna have video and we're gonna
have clips, then you know, wedon't want to have we want to
make sure things look different.
So then when we promote it weekafter week, there's a little bit
of a difference.
So a different shirt.
So yeah, no, I've packed asweatshirt and then I have a
t-shirt, and then I had a croptop underneath.
So there we go.
SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
It's hilarious.
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
You know what?
There's a method to thismadness, all right?
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
I do believe you, I believe I just kind of let you
do you.
I really do.
And I know that I don't need toget in the way.
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Well, and the best part is is like you know me long
enough that you're like, okay,she's a little crazy.
I get it.
But then once you see the workand once you see what I've done,
you're like, okay, yep, no,yeah, okay, yeah, no, she was
right.
It looks good.
I get it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
I see it now.
SPEAKER_02 (02:40):
I see it now.
I might not understand it, but Isee it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Yeah, and that's kind of what I did.
I just kind of let it go.
It's like, all right.
SPEAKER_02 (02:46):
You've learned to just let me do me.
SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Um, anyways, you don't reallyhave uh a deal.
Uh so there is a difference, andand to kind of like uh at a
thousand-foot scale is likethere is a difference between a
contact and a deal.
Uh, and there are two differentfunnels.
There's a contact funnel andthen there's a deal funnel.
And you told me to share this.
When somebody walks intoWalmart, that is not a prospect.
(03:08):
That is not even a deal, it'snot a lead, it's nothing.
It is a person that's browsing.
And then you have the prospectuntil they grab a cart, they are
now a prospect.
They become fully a lead whenthe moment they start to commit
and go through the checkout, andthen it's a sale when stuff's in
the bag and they're going totheir car.
unknown (03:27):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
So if you're not following that on retail and
you're trying to apply that to abusiness you own with a service,
there's your disconnect.
Absolutely.
Stop looking for sales, stoplooking for leads, look for
contacts, look for people thatknow people, or that person may
be that person that becomes asale.
SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
But if you're gonna look for leads, look for
prospects.
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
Yeah, you're starting at the wrong end of the
spectrum.
SPEAKER_02 (03:48):
Right.
Don't just search for anyone andeveryone because you're not
gonna be able to serve anyoneand everyone and solve
everyone's problems.
Look for prospects, look for theperson who they've got the
shopping cart and they'rebrowsing, they know they're
looking for milk, so they'regoing to the dairy aisle.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I've had people come sixmonths later or even a year
later to me and say, hey, Jason,I want to do this project with
you.
Can you guys help out?
Yeah.
They didn't, it took a year.
Like it takes a long game to dowhat we're doing, but we're a
different business model animal.
So, what is your business model?
What does that look like?
You have to start a little bitwith that.
So the corporate truth ispipelines don't pay bills,
purchase orders do.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
Not to mention, too, I'm gonna also mention this
depending on the industry, uhthe people you meet, it's always
worth networking.
They you might they might nothave a need right then and
there, but like you said, sixmonths later to a year, they do.
Yeah.
So, like, you know, yeah, theymight not.
I'm gonna pick on nerd brandbecause I can.
Um, they might not have a needfor nerd brand when you meet
them.
But then six months later, whenthey're like, hey, we need to do
(04:45):
a new website or we need torevamp some stuff, now you do.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
Yeah, I mean, we've reworked copy on a website
before, and um, they're like,Man, that I like how that sounds
and how that reads.
And I'm like, yeah, becauseprofessional wrote it.
But then also, let's watch howGoogle responds.
And then they're like, I didn'tknow I was getting SEO.
And I'm like, if you're messingwith us, we're looking at it
holistically.
So the copy and the professionalphotography, Google's gonna look
(05:10):
at that and go, like, I likewhat I see because I know that's
different.
It's not AI generated, it's notstock, it's not this, it's not
BS.
It's it makes a difference andit can change a brand, but it's
not gonna happen if I start on aMonday, it's not gonna happen by
Friday.
SPEAKER_02 (05:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
And that's the the other thing we gotta get past.
SPEAKER_02 (05:26):
But otherwise, that's you gotta look at it from
like a 30-day, 60-day, 90-dayperiod.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
Usually about a 90-day period is gonna what's
gonna be minimum to gatherenough data to kind of see how
somebody responds to an ad youjust threw out there.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
Um, six months is really going to be your marker
for actually seeing if it'sgonna work and if remarketing
kicks in on the paid ad channelside.
SPEAKER_02 (05:45):
But I've enough data to know.
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Yeah, the data, it's always the data, but it's how
how the data is used and howlong it takes, and that's
usually where people kind ofdon't have the patience.
And that's why I think everybodywants a sale, everybody wants a
lead, but these things are notbinary, and we need to start
disentangling all of thesethings because in a contact, you
could have a contact thatbecomes a um a prospect.
(06:07):
Like an initial contact, you cancall them a subscriber, you can
call them, I just know the bank,I just met the person, whatever
you want to call it.
That that's that's subjective.
But objectively, it's like theybecome a prospect when you start
to identify that there'ssomething that they're looking
for to get fixed that maybe youcan help with.
Right.
They become a full-on lead whenthat interest grows in you
(06:28):
fixing that problem.
So the first thing that happenswhen you start to get to that
point and they become a lead,you should be asking, like, are
you ready for a proposal?
So your first meeting is, okay,let's do a discovery meeting.
SPEAKER_02 (06:40):
Well, even if it's just getting to know you,
sometimes it's not even But it'snot a one-to-one.
SPEAKER_00 (06:45):
I want to emphasize that.
SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
Oh no, for sure.
It's more or less like I hateone-to-ones.
You and me both.
I'll work my way to aone-to-one, but if it's the
first way I meet you, it's justso intimidating.
Yeah.
But um, but like, yeah, like yousaid, discovery, but it's also
the getting to know.
Like, I gotta learn about youbefore I can figure out how to
solve your problem.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
Yeah, and then once you gotta tell me things.
SPEAKER_02 (07:05):
Right.
And then once I figure it out,then I can start.
Okay, now here's some ideas.
Here now the wheels are turning.
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
Yeah.
I mean, a lot of times peoplewill say, I want to do this, I
want to do that.
Okay, cool.
Well, why don't we schedule ameeting to initial discovery
meeting and then let's let'sreconvene on that.
You want to do that?
Cool.
Okay, now they're a prospect.
So I'm like, okay, so I'mprospecting them still because I
gotta go to the internets and Igotta go research their stuff
and see if what is out therealigns with what they're
thinking and what they're whatthey think they are seeing, and
(07:33):
nine times out of ten, it's not.
Like I sit in front of peopleall the time and I Google them,
and then their reaction to it islike I didn't know that was
there.
And I was like, that's what Imean.
SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
So dangers of online when you post it or if you do
something, it's always there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
Well, I had one meeting where somebody, I
Googled their names, and it'sjust a branded search, is what
we call it, right?
And so I Google the brand andthen they looked at it and
they're like, Well, that's whyI'm getting phone calls about
all this and that.
And I was like, Yes.
Sorry, you're not the only onenamed blankety blank that's out
there.
And then, you know, so that'sthat.
And so that initial discoverywas there.
So then from there, we couldsay, like, okay, let's have a
(08:08):
second meeting.
Do you want me to develop aproposal for you on how we can
fix this perception or how wecan pivot that?
That's an invalid question toask in that initial meeting.
If they say yes, now you got adarn opportunity, you can jump
and leapfrog from prospect leadto opportunity in that moment.
If they say, Yeah, I'd like tosee what this looks like and a
cost, and make sure youemphasize I'm going, this is a
(08:29):
transaction.
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
This is not a feel-good moment where we do a
one-to-one and get to know oneanother and do all that.
We are getting to know oneanother.
This is a transaction.
So um, if that's the case, yougo ahead and you give them a
proposal and then you go overthat and then you see if that
aligns with what they initiallythought and approached you for.
And maybe you have to go backand do another one because maybe
something wasn't in alignment.
That's fair.
SPEAKER_01 (08:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
But you can't keep that cycle going.
Right.
So um, I think that that thatall happens, and that is not a
sale.
SPEAKER_02 (08:58):
Nope.
Believe me, if if that was, thenI'd be making a heck of a lot
more money than I am.
And you would too.
SPEAKER_00 (09:08):
Yeah, I mean, a contact is gonna go through,
depending on how you have yourfunnel set up, you're gonna have
a the the the prospect, you'regonna have lead, and then you're
gonna have opportunity.
By the time you hit opportunity,now you have a deal.
So then you go through the dealstage because you have different
stages.
You have different funnels.
You have one for contacts, onefor deals.
The first deal stage is thatinitial meeting.
Hopefully, you have clarified inthe contact stage that we are
(09:30):
going to now approach atransaction, right?
You're in agreement that we'regonna I'm gonna give you a
document, it's gonna have aprice on it, it's gonna have the
details of what you asked me forfor you to either sign at that
moment or whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (09:42):
If it doesn't align, then you have a second meeting.
And then the third meeting,hopefully you have either in the
second or third meeting and thatspan, you can have a signature.
Yeah.
Once you get that ink, saleclosed, you won.
That's it.
SPEAKER_02 (09:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
Um, that's hard to do.
SPEAKER_02 (09:56):
And um especially in today's world because everything
is so gosh darn expensive.
SPEAKER_00 (10:00):
Yeah, yeah.
But I wish people would stopasking for leads because they
don't know you.
It's not a lead.
They may know somebody thatneeds what you know, but they
just don't know you unless theyspecifically reach out to you
and say, This is what I need andwhat it looks like you can now
it's a lead.
Right.
That's when it's a lead.
And that can happen on yourwebsite on a contact form.
That's just my perspective fromseeing this over the last 10, 20
(10:22):
years.
SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
Yeah, I mean, it's good to have it so that way if
people aren't sure how tocontact you, or if people are
like you and me, where it'slike, hey, I'd rather just type
out a form.
Yeah.
Just have written communicationversus having to deal with
people, then great, that's anoption.
But like, you know, you can'tjust take that as gospel as
like, oh, it's a writtenquestion, it's a written thing.
(10:43):
Yeah.
That means it's gonna happennow.
SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
Yeah, no, I get contacts because of the
service-based.
If you're a service-based in uhbusiness, you may get a contact
and they're asking quite theydon't they don't know.
They're still kind of trying tofigure out if you can solve
their problem.
So you still have variousdifferent funnels to go through,
but you have to have somethingset up so that you can start to
regulate and qualify people thatwill frankly waste your time.
Um and they don't may they maynot mean to, right?
(11:08):
But it is a distraction that cantake away opportunity for you to
make money.
SPEAKER_02 (11:11):
Right.
And if anything, you know, onthe moments that hey, like you
just said, they might notrealize that it's not gonna work
out, that's okay.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
Because if maybe it's a referral, maybe I'm like,
uh, maybe you need this person,not me.
SPEAKER_02 (11:22):
Well, that, and then also it can just be, hey, this
doesn't align.
So then you're not wasting yourtime with something that isn't
aligning.
Like if you if you figure it outpretty quick, then it's like,
okay, cool.
Not in our sector where you'redoing your thing, I'm doing
mine, cool.
And you can kind of cut it thereand then focus on prospects and
(11:44):
focus on clients versus justlike putting all your time and
energy into leads.
Yes, it's important, but youhave to be able to balance that
energy.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
Well, that's like uh empty-handed selling.
Um you can't sell vapor, peoplesee right through it, right?
So the customers they want proofor and even customers become
they can fall back intoaccount-based sales, and which
is really good, and that canactually support your business.
But you know, you have toestablish customer base,
obviously, first for that, whichis coveted by everybody, but
that takes time, it can takeyears.
(12:14):
Um, but they still want proof.
So you still have to provideexamples and case studies and
real product service that theycan touch, test, and try and
feel.
It just it is just that way.
Um, you know, I've I've gotsomebody right now that's going
down the path of rebranding, andum it's gotta be they they
really can't see it.
They're a visual person, andthat's fair.
Um, they work in an industrythat's very visual, but I can't
(12:35):
show them the visuals right nowbecause once we do, they'll
start to realize, oh, this iswhat this is.
We're not redoing the logo,we're not touching the logo.
There's too many shirts and andand signage, and and that's
expensive.
So, what can we do?
SPEAKER_02 (12:48):
Not to mention you want to stay recognizable.
SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
Right.
We and that's recognizable, sowe're not touching that.
There's other things that arechanging.
And so um, Walmart just didthis.
You know, they still have thesame logo, but they've tweaked
the font, they've tweaked thelogo, and then they have a sub
brand called Walmart Plus theyjust rolled out.
And so there's little thingslike that that may happen, and
so you can't really communicatethat across a conference table
(13:12):
until it's done, and then youcan kind of walk through that,
but there has to be a commitmentto go down that path to want to
do that.
And and for us, that's where wehave to ask the business um, you
know, is this gonna be a deadend?
Is it is this gonna work?
You know, are you committed todo you kind of understand that
we're gonna go through this?
SPEAKER_01 (13:28):
Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Yeah, so you can't sell empty-handed.
You've you've got to providesome examples so that they can
kind of get an idea.
SPEAKER_02 (13:34):
Right exactly.
And especially and that'sespecially relevant.
And you mentioned it, but inservice places, I mean, like,
yeah, if you make shirts and youmake things, you can bring it to
the table, like you know, if youwould do a promotional, here's
an item, here's a sample.
You know, with service, you haveto have a really solid
portfolio.
You know, if you're if you're agraphic designer, you gotta have
(13:56):
here's examples of my work.
Here are companies that I'veworked with and get the approval
of, hey, can I slap your logo onmy website?
Which by the way, can I slapyour logo on my website?
But you know, you gotta be ableto do that.
Um, and have the backing of Iwork with people.
And you know, even if what theywant is different than what
(14:18):
you've done before, you at leasthave to show that potential.
You know, you might you mighthave built, you know, I'm gonna
use um I don't know, I'm tryingto think of a decent example.
Uh you can, you know, renovatekitchens, yeah, but the moment
you're like somebody goes in islike, hey, so like you can
renovate kitchens.
Do you do bathrooms?
(14:38):
And you know, if you can and youwant to go down that route,
cool.
But you have to have here's whatI've done with kitchens, and
here's how I can spin that intoa bathroom.
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
Yeah, but to your point of a portfolio, it's
social proof.
unknown (14:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (14:50):
It really is.
SPEAKER_02 (14:50):
It really is.
You gotta establish credibilityand legitimacy.
SPEAKER_00 (14:53):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, show off you can usethere was uh you and I were
going back and forth about doingsomething for free and to get
established.
I think for freelancers theygotta adopt that more.
I think I mean we may disagreewith this, but when you're
starting out, nobody knows whoyou are.
They don't know if you're anygood.
SPEAKER_02 (15:11):
I think it's a fine line.
I think it's one of thosethings, and it's probably also
because of how do I phrase it?
Um, I think it's partiallybecause of my experiences as an
early professional.
Um, there were a lot of timeswhere I would get thrown into
(15:32):
situations that, well, I'm I'mthe greener employee.
This is what you have to do.
I can't fight it, otherwise, youknow, it's not gonna look good
on me, or I might lose my job.
So, okay, I'm gonna do it.
And then hindsight being 2020,it's like, okay, yeah, no, that
wasn't my responsibility.
I did it and it turned outgreat, but like I should have
gotten paid more, or I shouldhave advocated for this and
(15:53):
that.
That's how it's scope creepalmost because it's like it's
you gotta find that fine line asa freelancer of okay, yeah, I'm
willing to go a little bit extrafor the sake of getting my name
out there, for the sake of theportfolio.
But you have to be so carefuland emphasize that, hey, this is
this is for this.
And you know, if you you know, Iwould appreciate you spreading
(16:16):
my name out there, but you know,don't go telling people, oh,
she's gonna do this, this, this,and this, because this is a
special scenario for you.
So then that way, if a referralone to two years later comes
down the line, they're notexpecting you to do exactly what
you did when you were startingout.
Because at that point, it'slike, okay, you do have some
experience and there is a levelof charge reasonably, but also
charge what you're worth.
(16:36):
Well, so it's in the right.
And that's why I say that's whyI say it's a fine balance
because I completely agree.
You gotta start somewhere, yougotta do a free internship,
you've got to, you know, youmight not be able to charge what
you want, but it's a sake ofstarting out, you gotta do a
free project or a wholesale costproject.
Yeah, you gotta do it to get outthere because there's so many
(16:57):
out there.
It's just that fine line of, andthat's where I'm where my
emphasis is is just make surethat you're not getting taken
advantage of.
Because I think that when a freeI've been taken advantage of a
lot.
SPEAKER_00 (17:09):
Well, and that that happens when you're dealing
directly with a business.
As an agency, we can kind ofinsulate our contractors.
SPEAKER_02 (17:15):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (17:15):
Um, an example of that is if I hire a graphic
designer and I need um Hi, howare you?
Hey.
If I need Google Ads made, okay,there is a brand guide, there is
a look.
I have a creative director.
He's gonna get very involved inwhat your ads are gonna look
like, and he's gonna not be thisperson that's like, oh, move it
two pixels to the left.
He ain't that kind of he's notthat kind of creative director.
SPEAKER_02 (17:36):
I love Mitch.
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
Um, yeah, he's amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (17:38):
Shout out to Mitch.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
He'll come in and he'll say, like, uh, I don't
know about that button there.
Um, you know, maybe we don'thave it say that.
Maybe we say something otherthan submit.
Like, he's kind of a littledifferent now what he does, but
he knows what he's doing.
Yeah, it's all about for him.
He's looking at proportions,he's looking at, you know, the
composition of the thing.
SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
There's a difference between criticism and judgment.
He criticizes, he doesn't judge.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Yeah, so he comes in and it's like he understands
this ad's got to convert, andthen I have to present the ad to
the client, and the client's gotto approve it.
And if they don't like what theysee, there's a problem.
Meantime, as a designer thatI've never worked with before,
you want me to pay you$500 to doa set of Google ads.
I can't do that because I don'tknow what you're gonna give me.
(18:19):
I know you have examples ofprevious ads that you've done
and they look pretty, but we saythis for a reason, and pretty is
easy, smart is hard.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:28):
So we need to know did they work?
SPEAKER_02 (18:30):
And exactly, and that's a different scenario
where it's like, okay, whenyou're starting out because I'll
pay you if you suck.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
That's fine.
I mean, I gotta do something tolearn.
SPEAKER_02 (18:39):
It might just not be a reoccurring.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
I may not have you do it the next time, I may have
you do something else.
I'm going through that kind ofnow, but it's just like I gotta
know can you do that?
Can Mitch work with you?
Can that can that get fixed?
Can you not?
I mean, you kind of did it withsome ads that we needed or
social posts that we needed.
You kind of got a littlecreative with the placement of
of the text on the image, and Iknew right away the client would
(19:02):
be like, WTF is that right, andI would have had him my butt off
where it and I was like, I yeah,no, no, no, no, no.
Here's what we did in the past,this is what they like.
Yeah, I don't want to deviatebecause it just makes problems.
SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
Right.
And when you're a freelancer,sometimes you don't always have
that context.
So it's just a matter of hereand it it's draft.
Yeah, here's the first draft.
SPEAKER_00 (19:22):
And Mitch will do that.
He'll be like, mm-mm, no.
SPEAKER_02 (19:24):
Yeah, no, and and that's totally fair.
I mean, as a freelancer, andespecially if you're in the
design realm, nothing you makeis gonna always be first
go-around.
I always go in expecting thereto be a bunch of a bunch of
changes that need to be made.
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:37):
And especially when I'm being freelanced out for
stuff, because I'm not the onethat's working with the client.
I don't have the context of thisis what they want.
I have examples, but there mightbe things that I'm like, oh, we
might need to switch thisdifferent.
And sometimes it's like, okay,this is a different thing, so
that works.
And then other times it's like,no, we need it to be carbon
copy, just swap out the picture.
(19:58):
Yeah.
All right, 10-4, got it.
Yeah, they have this, yeah.
And the only way to know likethat, yeah.
And the only way to really knowis number one, to have that
relationship and be open to thatcommunication, but then also not
to take that stuff personally.
I never take if it's judgmentand it's you know, you can tell
it's with negative intent, I'llget I'll get a little hurt.
But like if you're just beingcritical and you're just like,
(20:19):
the client's not gonna likethat.
unknown (20:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (20:21):
Yeah, that change it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
Yeah, got it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
But usually I usually tell you why.
SPEAKER_02 (20:24):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
I mean if I have the time, like I'm not a creative
director.
This is why I pay Mitch to dowhat Mitch does.
SPEAKER_02 (20:30):
Well, and Mitch will even tell me why later.
It's one of those things thatyou might I might not know why
now, but I'll eventually findout later.
And God forbid, if I ever didn'tfind out, I don't care.
I wouldn't.
SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
But that thing that you did, um, either way, that
color scheme and how it's laidout, that's what people like to
click on too.
Right.
We know that for a fact frommetrics.
SPEAKER_02 (20:46):
Exactly.
There's gonna be differentperspectives because like you're
gonna see certain things, I'mgonna see certain things.
So it's kind of finding thathappy medium when the worlds
collide.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
Yeah, yeah.
It's the colors and what you didwith it and everything else.
That that's that's the the proofof that.
And so, yeah, but yeah, it's oneof those things where it's like
I can't really talk about thestory, but I met a young
entrepreneur and he had a greatidea, and I thought, well, maybe
go do this and but do it forfree.
But because of the brand that Irecommended to do it for, they
have multiple locations, itwould be high exposure, it would
(21:14):
be a great case study, and itcould attract the next one like
it, which is really what youwant.
And now you're getting paid.
So that's a loss leader in amassive way, but it is something
that uh young entrepreneurs needto consider when starting out
because exactly no, you got toshow people what you can do, and
if you can't, no one's gonnahire you.
So if you're out there andyou're listening to this episode
(21:34):
and you're like, wait a minute,I'm gonna go to Lost and Found
and see if something hasNerdbrand on it, please let me
know because it's probably myfault that it's there and we
forgot it.
Um, because that happened, Iguarantee it, at least at some
event venues that we've been to.
Um, you know, and and that'ssomething that's um, you know,
we've got we've had brochuresmade, we've had other things
done.
Those are a little bit moreexpensive, but at the end of the
(21:56):
day, you know, you kind of haveto you want to the giveaways are
always a struggle to figure outwhat to do.
SPEAKER_02 (22:00):
Well, and you can't just hand out promotional swag.
You have to also have like thewhat's the word I want to look
for?
The professional stuff to gowith it.
Like you can't just hand out ifyou're at a a booth, you can't
just hand out the sunglasses andcall it good.
You gotta have the brochure thatgoes with it because you gotta
have something that establisheswho you are, what you do.
Even if it's like I mean withrealtors, they hand out
(22:23):
promotional stuff at all theiropen houses all the time.
You always see a business card.
Yeah, you gotta have some ofthose things.
Otherwise, it's just like, okay,now we're just handing out
things with no strategy.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you've listened this longon this episode, we appreciate
it.
Um, we do have this is a longone.
Yeah, it's a long one.
So we have uh we do have aPatreon, and um, you know, we
will figure out probably in thefuture like how do we do that to
make money.
Uh monetized channels are alwaysgood for revenue.
So we are looking at that now,and we've been offered some uh
monetization on a couple of ourchannels already by networks,
and so I'm reading through thatto make sure that you know it's
(22:56):
not a giveaway of our identityand property because that can
happen.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
Yeah, so uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's uh there's a lot of thatthat could go on.
Uh, there's a famous comedian,won't say his name, but happen
to him.
Dave Chappelle.
Anyhow.
unknown (23:11):
Chappelle.
SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Yeah.
Uh so yeah.
Anyways, if you enjoyed thisepisode, go to
NerdbrandAgency.com and slashpodcast, and you know, uh
follow, see some more episodes.
Tell us what you think, drop usa line on Facebooks, and we'll
see you next week.
Keep your nerdbrand strong.
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