Gaming & Spending: The Parent's Dilemma

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Shoop (00:07):
kevin games decided to send me another bot email on
this situation.
Oh my god, hey, hey audiencewelcome to nerds on tap.
We'll get back to what I wasjust talking about.
Uh, welcome to another episodeof nerds on tap, where we get
nerdy for an hour, uh, and talkabout anything nerdy business,

(00:27):
entrepreneurship or, uh,technology infused with what.
Whatever our discussion happensto be, today, we are getting
into a topic that kind of hithome with me and my son this
week gaming and spending theparent's dilemma is what we're
going to talk about, and todayI've got Sam the IT guy on again

(00:52):
.
Hello, thanks for coming onagain, sam.
We appreciate you, you redheadedsexy beast, you.

Sam The IT Guy (01:01):
Well, get used to seeing me, friends skew.

Tim Shoop (01:10):
Well, get used to seeing me friends.
Um, anyway, I was.
I was talking about the topicgaming and spending, the parents
dilemma.
We're gonna dive in uh to uh,the investment in virtual
currencies in games likefortnite and roblox and how we
deal with it as parents and andwhat can happen that can really
kill a kid's spirit.

(01:31):
Oh yeah, uh in playing thosegames.
Um, we're gonna, we'll talkabout um uh once we get through
virtual currency.
We're gonna get into thegrowing popularity in live
service games and then we'regoing to dive into some existing
lawsuits against, or somepre-existing lawsuits that have
been resolved between Epic Gamesand companies like Apple and

(01:55):
Google, and why and how does theimportance of that tie into our
story today.

But go ahead.
Is it fair to say that whatwe're going to cover is indeed
going to be epic?

Tim Shoop (02:10):
Oh, it's going to be epic because we're going to talk
about epic games.
They've had a lot of troubleover the years, but we'll get
into it later.
As always and you know this bycoming on our show last time as
always, we got to kick it offwith a tasty beverage.
Always, Edge, take it away.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcometo Nerds on Tap.

(02:38):
I'm your host, Tim Shue, and Icouldn't be more excited to
embark on this nerdy adventurewith all of you.
So grab your favorite brew,because things are about to get
exciting 3, 2, 1, go.

Edge (02:57):
Alright, guys.
So our first beer that we havetoday is our Tate's Helles.
It's a German-style lager fromthe brewery oyster city brewing
company from abalachicola,florida.
The brewer's descriptiondescribes it as a traditional
lager utilizing all german maltsand hops to produce a malt
accented, lightly hopped, goldencrisp and crushable experience

(03:21):
for the drinker.
It's's named after the localTate's Hell State Forest.

Tim Shoop (03:27):
Fantastic Edge.
I appreciate that wonderfuldescription on this beer.
Thank you, sam.
The IT guy cheers to you sir.
Clinky clinky.
All right, let me know what youthink on that.

These flights, these little glasses, these are
like shot glasses, so it's uhyeah, I, I reflexively, after we
clinked, like dropped it and Iwas like wait, we're not doing
that, like we're not going thathard and it's very hard to to
not just shoot it right like Iwas mid-gulp before.

Tim Shoop (04:00):
I was like, wait, and this first beer needs to, needs
to uh make it through theentire first segment.
So I actually had someone thatwas shooting these on a prior
show.
If you remember the show we didwith steve wilmer, the
insurance guy, um, he had totake a pee break in the middle
because he was shooting all thebeer.

(04:22):
So, anyways, let's get into thetopic at hand.
We're going to talk about theintroduction of uh to virtual
currency and games, absolutely,and kind of start there and then
make our way into the othersegments that we previously
talked about.
So what sparked this episode?

(04:42):
Kind of hit home with us.
I have a 13-year-old son athome and he loves to play
Fortnite with his friends.
Now as opposed to when I wasgrowing up.
I'm a Gen Xer, so when I wasgrowing up, yes, I played video
games, but the video games had astart and an end.

(05:03):
Right, you didn't play withyour friends online.
The technology, obviously, wasdecades later oh yeah, because
I'm old.
But we would go out and play inthe neighborhood with our
friends.
Right.
Whatever that might be right,whatever that might be, the kids

(05:28):
nowadays their way of gettingtogether?
Um, because you know they mightlive on the opposite side of
the town or whatever, or inother towns which, which, uh, it
brings them together, um,through technologies like
discord, and, and and otherother systems like that that tie
into games and you, they canconnect on these games, play
online.

Edge (05:46):
we all know we've been down this way, yeah 100.

Tim Shoop (05:49):
This is old news, right, so?
So let's talk.
So this week, specificallyearlier this week, my son walked
out in the living room where Iwas sitting and I could tell he
was upset, right, uh, sat himdown, listened to a story.
He got, quote unquote,permabanned, oh no, from

(06:11):
fortnight for supposedlycheating, cheating yeah, okay,
yeah and here's the thing now.
I always err on the side ofbeing a dad when I have these
discussions, and I start thediscussion out that way, I go.
Well, what did you do, right?

You know, first and foremost, let's let's check
that accountability, personalresponsibility.
What could you have donedifferently?
Would that have prevented it?
No, now we can move on to thenext steps and and here's the
thing.

Tim Shoop (06:43):
So I listened to him.
I felt bad for him.
Oh absolutely, and then I triedto figure out why he got banned
.
So the very first thing I didwas I did some research online.
I read about these differentcheat codes and cheat software

(07:04):
that you can install on yourmachine to cheat inside these
games, yes, and so I startedthere.
Okay, and I went on his machine.
I looked in his event viewerright, I looked at different
things.
Apparently maybe vpns you know,I've been reading in reddit that
you know vpn could be thesituation you know they don't

(07:26):
like, because epic likes totrack your ip.
They like to try, they like tomonitor your activity.
Apparently it's in their termsof service, which we'll get into
later, right, and they likewhich, which concerns me a as a
parent, that my son is beingmonitored at a young age, right,
you know, and you know, beingin cyber security, that topic

(07:50):
concerns me very quickly, veryheavily too I don't like it.
Um, secondly, uh.
So I went through his eventviewer, I went in his task
manager, I went through hisentire machine.
There wasn't any cheat software.
There wasn't any instance.
The only thing that was on hismachine there was an express vpn
that that loaded by.

(08:11):
The manufacturer bought themachine.
So I uninstalled it just as aprecaution.
I went back in, kept trying thegames.
The problem is when he would gointo the game it wouldn't give
him the option to play it underthat account.
Okay, so then when he goes intohis other account, it'll load it
but it boots him from the gameand it tells him you know you?

yeah, so his.
So this, this was one of thosewhere they didn't just block an
account, they blocked him by themac address of his device.

Tim Shoop (08:41):
Yeah, okay, nintendo does something extremely similar
, that's what it sounds like,but I I can't get a straight
answer out of epic and and we'regonna get back to what epic
decided to say and not do andand that sort of thing.
So here, so this story getsbetter, so I go.

(09:03):
Well, caleb, I heard you online, I listened to you, I can hear
you in your room playing withyour friends and I know how good
you are.
Now my son he plays in thesetournaments and he really gets
fired up about these tournaments.
There's like 3,000 or 4,000kids in these tournaments.

(09:24):
Oh hot dog, and in the lastcouple tournaments he finished,
he was ranked up in the top 15.
That's impressive.
He's pretty good yeah,absolutely, and.
But he doesn't like playingwith people that aren't so good,
and that's a familiar feeling.
That's so he tends to saythings like you're, you're not

(09:47):
great, you're, you're not good,what are you doing, come on,
come on, come on, come on.
And he and it's almost likehe's talking a different
language he's talking so fast,right, because he's trying to
lift them up to be as good ashim, so he can create a team and
go in and win these tournamentsexactly.
So the only thing I couldsurmise at that point is maybe

(10:09):
they're monitoring what he'ssaying on discord, which, no
cussing, nothing like my son, I,I can hear him in there, no
cussing, none of that.
But you maybe a little bit oftalking down.
So I'll give it that.
But here's the deal.
That's not what it was Right.
So come to find out another kidthat he had been playing with

(10:34):
that apparently got offended bythe way Caleb was talking to him
on there.
Decided to report him forcheating yeah.
Decided to report him forcheating yeah.
And then decided to text himand all his friends that kind of
like a badge of honor that hegot him booted from fortnight

(10:54):
for cheating, even though hewasn't.
Now what I'd like to do, um, and, and, and so that's the story
that introduces this segment.
Okay, so, and and.
What I want to talk about inthis first segment is virtual
currency.
Okay, uh, and I want to kick itoff by saying my son had over

(11:14):
500 invested in that accountright but epic games does not
care how much you have.
It's even in their terms ofservice, which we'll get back to
in the final segment.
Okay, they don't care and I getit.
You're trying to create a funand safe place for your kids to
play, so I commend Epic fordoing that.

(11:36):
But I don't like the way theygo about banning someone just
because they think he wascheating.
They couldn't give me anyevidence that he cheated, right,
and hence, going back to thebeginning of the show, right, I
got an email from epic and theythey won't tell me.

(11:57):
They won't tell me why he gotbanned, right.
They won't say it was cheating,they just said he's perma
banned now are you?
are you emailing epic from hisaccount, posing as him trying to
get information, or I'memailing them as a parent, okay,
yeah, and I told oh, that'sright, who I was because and
it's also, I'm assuming, it'salso a child account that they
have set up it is okay, and itis something that's already tied

(12:18):
very interesting.

Okay, very interesting so it's one of those
where there's not there's notany kind of like um, of security
features that you have to getaround because of it.
No, not at all, because it'salready linked up.

Tim Shoop (12:28):
I'm basically replying to a ticket, anyway.
So, a ticket's linked to anemail which is forwarded inside
a ticketing system, and it'sconnected that way.

I know a lot of smaller developers for live
service games like this will usethings like Zendesk like a
board board for tickets oh yeah,absolutely.
Um, so I what I would assumehave like, because, again, I,
I'm one of those where I tend totry to immediately give benefit
of the doubt wherever Ipossibly can, because, um, I

(13:00):
have always ended up fallingflat on my face in any kind of
discussion when I thought I wasright about something.
Right, you know what I mean.
So with with this one, I know,because I, I have spent years
playing games, years likeliterally grew up with it.
Uh, my generation was the onethat that was kind of the bridge
, right, it's kind of the bridgebetween, you know, gen x and

(13:20):
gen z.
Now I think it's the other ones, because we're gen y, which I
don't know why we went withmillennials, because it
absolutely fits our generationto be gen right.
Why so I like that, but growingup I like that a lot, right, I
probably saw that online, so Iknow it sounded clever, but I'm

(13:41):
pretty sure I just stole it genx X, I would imagine that stands
for extreme Right.

Tim Shoop (13:45):
Of course we were badasses.

Everything you guys invented skateboarding, at
least the X Games version of it.
The PC oh, that's right, pc.
Oh beautiful, beautifultechnology, consoles, consoles,
all of it, gaming in general.
But the thing is like, sinceI've kind of grown up with live
service games as a whole, rightlike I, I actually not just

(14:09):
witnessed it but participated init as we went on.
Because you know for I thinkthe first mmo like technically
mmo because if anyone else likeit's a free-to-play game it was
called runescape.
Now I ended up getting hookedto this game and it's one of
those where it's not actuallyvery involved, it's all just

(14:33):
managing and progressing.

Tim Shoop (14:35):
Tell our audience what MMO stands for, because not
everybody's, oh gotcha.

Now an MMO stands for a Massively
Multiplayer Online Game.
Now usually you hear them asMMORPGs.
Things like RuneScape, wow, allthat jazz, all fall under that
umbrella.
Rpg role-playing, exactly so,whereas Fortnite would be more
of an MMO shooter.
But there's certain mechanicsin games that are intentionally

(15:04):
used to kind of get thatconstant dopamine drip right,
and it's as simple as smallrewards as you play Now old
school games, the ones that youremember right Pong, donk Pong.

Tim Shoop (15:18):
Okay, all right, I will say the very first console
I had was Pong.

Uh-huh.

Tim Shoop (15:25):
But that's not what I grew up on.
I grew up on an Atari 2600 withgames like Donkey Kong and
Frogger and Pac-Man and SpaceInvaders.
Hey, what are you laughing for,Sam?

I was wanting to tag Pong onto that list again.

Tim Shoop (15:49):
I am going to Pong you over the head now, anyway.
So let's get on.
Yeah, let's, let's, let's talkabout, let's talk about virtual
currency.
So here's, here's where thedilemma came in for caleb.
He has a lot of money tied up inthat oh yeah, and as a parent,
when they, when my kids firstapproached me when they were
like seven or eight, wanting tobuy a skin, I mean the very
first thing he wanted to buy wasa skin.

(16:09):
Inside at the time it was, Ithink, roblox right, um, and
then you're like and I'm likeyou want to spend how much on a
collection of pixels?
I think it was five or tenbucks, it wasn't, but I was like
dude, that's intangible.
Yeah, it doesn't actually existin the real world and you don't
own it and you don't own itbecause it is owned by the

(16:30):
company.
So the way epic, in thissituation, sees it is you don't
own it, it's intangible, youbought it in our store and you
can turn it back in for creditsunless you get banned, even if
the ban wasn't legitimate, right?
So that's how I see it.

(16:50):
So, as a parent, when, when mymy child first approached me
when he was like seven andwanted to buy a skin for like
five or ten bucks, I was like no, but but as a parent, yeah, you
know, let's, let's go back tothe right, not the pong days,

(17:13):
let's go back to the birth ofmmos, to the early 80s oh, even
better early 80s.
So the, the, the uh,introduction of 80, 88s.
Right, I had an Atari computer,whatever.
But buying a skin in a game,even though it's intangible and

(17:34):
it's something you buy in thegame.
It's no different, in myopinion, than the way our
parents would fill our handsfull of quarters so we could
feed the donkey kong machine inthe bowling alley.
Yeah, so similar I would.
It is three or four dollars aquarters right and I would play,
but when I was done I was done.

(17:55):
My goal was to get a high scoreand get that badge of honor by
having my three initials upthere right for the high score
talk go ahead so and and that'sI.

I love that you have that experience, right,
because it's one of those thingswhere, like now, I know exactly
, I'm like, oh, I know exactlyhow to talk about this with just
what you presented.
So that being kind of the earlydays of gaming right, this is
before, like massive amounts ofstudies and money has been
pumped into the industry, how itworks, why it's successful, all
of that jazz but it's fun toactually watch the natural

(18:29):
evolution of it.
Right, there are things thatwere embedded in gaming back in
those days that are still there.
You want to talk about gettingthe high score so you can have
your name.
We have achievements now, veryspecialized tasks that you have
to unlock right and they're allused as a badge of honor to show
, hey, I'm this good at thisgame sure.

Tim Shoop (18:51):
So I played madden right and in madden I can go on
there, I can do a, a competitionexercise and I can earn some
players, you know, to add to my,my, my ultimate team and things
like that or player cards.
I can dress my my guy right adifferent way.

My guy, my avatar, my guy and I,
legitimately, would haveprepared to wait as long as it
took for you to find that wordhey, listen, there are a lot of
dumb words in today's societyaround technology oh yes but and
I can't keep up with them all,yeah I just you know we, we were

(19:35):
the birth of all this exactly.

Tim Shoop (19:38):
Anyway, long story short, let's jump forward.
Okay to robux, yes, and vbucksyes and virtual currencies that
are used in these games and howthat interchange works right,
and you know what?
What your child, what, why?
So they're wearing a badge ofhonor.

(20:00):
So if they're, they have aspecial outfit that they've
outfitted their avatar with yeahand they're the only ones
because their other buddy, theirparents, wouldn't buy it for
them right or they didn't havethe money and weren't allowed to
go buy it exactly.
Then maybe maybe they're pickedon, you know.
Maybe they're not looked at,you know they, they wear it to

(20:22):
have.
That I don't know.

Now the real reason for when it comes to
skins at least in my experiencefrom playing games when it comes
to actually purchasing thoseall skins and customizations for
appearances and things are allmeant to just be another
expression of your personality.
It's all about your way ofexpressing or showing what
you're into.
Hilariously enough, infree-to-play games Now granted

(20:48):
millennials, millennials, gen zit might be a completely
different field now, um, butwhen I was playing those games
like that at that age, you gotmade fun of for spending money
on a skin because they're likebro, do you not know?
This game is free, likeeveryone, like it was kind of a
it's kind of the norm right now.

Tim Shoop (21:05):
They're mandatory.
It's yeah, yeah, and I meanweapons, weapons inside the game
.
Right, are they allowed to buyand upgrade?

Well, some games will have features like that,
and that's where you're going tohear the phrases.
If you ever hear the phrase payto win, that's what they mean.
You are spending real-worldmoney for an in-game advantage.
It is something that isuniversally hated by the gaming
community I don't like it.
It's horrific.
So, but what the what?

(21:34):
The evolution of these games?
Like?
How far they've gone,especially when it comes to the
live service games right, yourfortnights, your world of
warcraft, destiny, like the onesthat you hop in every night and
play with your friends.
Every single one of those gameshave what's called a
progression system in place.
It is actually part of the game, and the way that it's designed

(21:55):
to maximize its fun is that youhave this sense of progressing
as you play.
Your time is rewarded bygaining in game items and game
currency, things of that nature.
Your time is being rewarded.
Now, that's the reason why,like when I hear like oh yeah,
he got permabanned, it hurts,like even even it not being me,
because that is years of work, Iknow it seems he, he, yeah,

(22:20):
yeah.

Tim Shoop (22:20):
He's like dad, I have so much money tied up in this
and and and I just I'm, I'm notgonna, you know, I'm not gonna
get that back right, and I don't.
It's not.
The first thing out of hismouth is this isn't fair, right,
and and and.
Then when he sent he savvy,yeah, he sent a ticket in epic,

(22:40):
right, and this is what I kindof want to get into.
Yeah, he got a bot responsebecause it came back within
minutes okay and it it.
Now you know we're in the cybersecurity realm.
Oh yeah, you get a phishingemail.
They're always written the sameway.
Kindly sir right yada, yada,yada this, and that these are
written very similar to that soimmediately I I thought, oh my

(23:05):
God, this is written like ahacker wrote a response and my
son sent it, got it back rightaway and they couldn't give him
an exact reason.
Nope, you're permabanned.
Sorry, situation is this, andblah, blah, blah.
So I sent an email to them.

(23:28):
I'm the father you know, knowand I care about my kids, of
course, and I don't want to seethem upset about anything, of
course, as long as they didn'tcause it.
Right now I did the duediligence right and it looks
like he didn't do anything wrong.
Come to find out that kidreported him yeah, I know, and,
it, and, and and.
It was very easy for him to dothat, but we're gonna get into

(23:51):
that in segment two.
Okay, uh, I'm out of beer, so,edge, take it away, let's have
another beer.
We're gonna talk about beingbanned in games and what you, as
a parent, need to know allright, guys.

Edge (24:06):
So our next beer is the samuel adams old fizzy wig ale.
This is actually what I'mdrinking right now.
So the fizzy wig ale is aseasoned beer brewed by boston
beer lager, known for its samueladams brand.
It's inspired by the charactermr fizzy wig from charles
darwin's a christmas carol.

(24:28):
This beer is typically releasedduring the holiday season and
is part of the Samuel AdamsWinter Classics Variety Pack.
Old Fizzy Wig Ale is a rich andflavorful brew with notes of
caramel, toffee and spicesreminiscent of the festive
flavors often associated withthe holiday season.
It's often described as ahearty and warming beer perfect

(24:53):
for enjoying during coldermonths or festive gatherings.

Tim Shoop (24:57):
Yeah, and we're having it in the dead of summer,
under these hot lights, in ourstudio.

Edge (25:03):
It's always summer in Florida.

But I'm pretty sure it was actually charles
dickens who wrote a christmascarol, not charles darwin oh, oh
yeah, I am so sorry you didn'tthink we'd notice yeah, but we
did sorry hey, uh, thanks forcalling them out on air you're
welcome.

Tim Shoop (25:22):
You're welcome yeah, hey, this is all about
accountability.
That's funny, so let's getfunny.
So let's get into the ban,let's get into this ban and
let's talk about how players canget banned.
And this is where you come in.
Sam.
How they get banned in gameslike Fortnite, roblox, call of
Duty, pokemon Go and more.

(25:42):
The kid that reported them, myson, showed me how easy it is to
click, pull up a form, pick whyyou want to report somebody and
just flip and report them.

Yep Go.
Yes, sir, now that in myexperience, that is actually
something that games have beendoing a much better job of
making much more accessible.
I've been doing a much betterjob of making much more
accessible Because, when itcomes to all of these games and
this goes for not just the gamesthat you play online that are
up for a certain amount of time,monthly subscription, no, I'm

(26:18):
talking like you walk into thestore, buy a physical copy of a
disc and go home with it.
You have that physical game inyour hand.
You do not own it.
Every single game developer,every single game manufacturer,
every single one of them, theirterms of service starts with uh,
oh, what was it exactly?
It is you.

(26:40):
Uh.
By accepting these terms, youacknowledge that you are, uh,
not the owner of it, but insteadpurchasing, purchasing a
license for it, a license right.

Tim Shoop (26:49):
They're licensing it for distribution.

Yes, and this is a lesson that you learn very
quickly in gaming.
I learned this one throughNeopets, which is, if their game
is broken, if you exploit that,you get punished for it.
Wow, so it's this weird thingthat you know, I hear about and

(27:11):
like I hear, like the samepoints that you know, same
feelings, that I felt, the samelogical conclusions that I came
to when experiencing somethinglike that, um, later on in life.
A much more, a much closerexample to this would be when I
used to play league of legends,because that's also a
free-to-play game where you canspend money for skins and it,

(27:32):
and it was all cosmetic, like itwas one of those really good
ones, free to play but not payto win.
Um, and someone would be like,oh, you play league of legends,
like yeah, they're like why?
Like, oh, it's, it's free toplay.
And they're like, oh, how muchmoney did you spend on that?
And you're like two grand.
But when it came?
But when it comes to things likeleague of legends, um, and
really any online game at thispoint in time, especially one

(27:52):
where it allows the players toactually chat with one another,
um, they are usually pretty,they're supposed to be heavily
moderated, um, but especiallywhen you get games like world of
warcraft that you know hasmillions upon millions of people
every day playing right, theregular moderation becomes a
problem so typically with thesegames that that built-in report

(28:15):
system that's like super easyand quick to do.
Uh, anytime you go toinitialize one of those, as like
a usual thing, that it'll do istake the time that you actually
go to put in the report andthey go back to when the
incident occurs that you put inyour report and then they look
through the logs and they'llmake a decision on that.

(28:36):
Now, playing league of legendsand it's the reason why I kind
of want to bring this one up,because now, granted, league of
legends, that's going to beright games.
It's a completely differentcompany than epic games, um, and
even though there are multiplekind of like accepted industry
standards, they are their ownentity and can set their own
rules, right, um.

(28:56):
But in league I had a friend ofmine who is what we call from
the, because from the internetwe refer to them as trolls.
Um, I do believe in youngerdays, pre-internet, uh, we used
to just call people like thatdifficult, like oh yeah, he's
just gonna bust your balls forfun, uh, except for dialed up to
11 with the anonymity of theinternet.

(29:17):
So he's going back and forthwith this guy and decides he
crossed the line and reports him.
They gets that automatedresponse really quickly and then
about two days later he haswhat's referred to as a soft ban
, which is usually what you'llget when it comes to like
misconduct, right like hey manyou're crossing along.

Tim Shoop (29:38):
How long does a soft?

ban last depends on the infraction and the
company.
Uh, 30 days, 30 days, thatwould be like if you were like
hardcore like that's like cyberbullying Right.
Like you, you were talkingsmack in general chat, you know,
left general chat and then youjumped into their DMs to be like
yo let me tell you aboutyourself.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that that's usually.

(29:59):
You're looking at 30 days.

Tim Shoop (30:01):
Um, for just being annoying or like rude, you
usually look about two or threedays, so so he should have
gotten a two to three day banfor what he did if, if it was
one of those where they pulledthe logs and realized like, okay
, this, this, this dude'sgetting a little.
I don't think they actuallypulled the logs.
I think there's I think youread it I was in reddit, yeah,

(30:24):
and I was reading about it and alot, of, a lot of users agree,
a lot of players agree oh, ofcourse that you know a.
They're getting back to youright away, which you know is
either a help desk or a bot mostlikely a bot.
The way these are written I can, I can kind of pick up on it
right, and they're using keywordscans in the dialogue to

(30:46):
determine which auto response tosend you.
Not just which auto response,yeah, but when they're scanning
the machine, maybe they'relooking for keywords, okay, and
shoot if anybody mentions hey,cheating, or this or that, or
you use maybe that triggers the,the permaban.

It's entirely possible and it could also be
something as small as there wasa bug in the game that if you do
it a certain way, you got amassive advantage that the
entire community knows about,because everyone jumps on Reddit
and is like hey guys, if you doX, y and Z, you become God in
this game.

(31:33):
People are going to jump on thatimmediately.
If you want like a really goodlaugh, like do you enjoy like
british humor, like kind of justdry sarcastic, of course I do,
okay.
Um, and do you also like overthe top ridiculousness?

Tim Shoop (31:40):
of course I do okay, there is.

There is a youtube channel.
I don't I don't mean to plugrandom people, but he is exactly
kind of exactly what we'retalking about on this one.
Okay, he's called the SpiffingBrit and this is a guy who uses
a.
He's very, very British or doesa very good accent Honestly,
couldn't tell either way but hegoes into games and he finds
things that are wrong with themand then makes video tutorials

(32:05):
on how everyone else can startdoing it oh that's force the
developers to fix it, to fix ityeah, so like it's otherwise
lazy, they drag it out rightexactly

Tim Shoop (32:16):
here's them up so permavamp.
So on the temporary bans.
Right, uh, harassment, maybesome bullying, uh, offensive
language, yeah, things like that.
Permaban cheating, right,extreme bullying, right things
like that.
Yes, violence, violence.
Uh well, how can you not beviolent in a video?

Edge (32:38):
game these days.
I mean you can threatensomeone's life right?

someone genuinely feels, you know,
scared right or or evensomething as direct or horrific
as like hey, go kill yourselflike that right that that's a.
That's a.
That's one that pops up likeit's.
When I was growing up playinggames like online, like it was
one of those like hey, man,don't go online to play games if
you are not ready to be talkedto well, I would you know.

Tim Shoop (33:03):
It's funny because in the situation of my son and
what he went through, right I?
I know, even if I wouldn't havebeen banned for the initial
incident, I would have beenbanned because I would have told
that kid, let me come over andyou come out, meet me in your
yard I mean because that's thegen x mentality.
Oh yeah, or at least how I usedto be I would.

I would say pre-camera in everyone's pocket.

Tim Shoop (33:26):
That's exactly how we handled business, yeah film
them exactly film them, recordit, throw them under the bus,
yeah, I don't like it.
I think it's dumb um so uh,cheat detection software, so
that we we mentioned that acouple times where these
companies monitor, uh what thesekids are doing right online and

(33:47):
keywords and things like thatpick up on it.
But cheat detection softwarescans the pc, looks for aim bots
, what hack, wall, hacks, right,uh, exploits and unauthorized
third-party software right thatmight be installed to give the
kid an unfair advantage, rightgo okay now with this one.

I don't know the exact specifics for each games,
uh, because I, I haven't, I've,I haven't really played, like
okay.
So, gamers, y'all out there whowho know what I'm about to talk
about, you, you know what it'slike to be about that life, and
by that life I mean not havingone.
Uh, it's been a hot minutesince I have game gamed, uh, the

(34:32):
way you know, children do kidsdo, yeah, yeah, exactly, they're
hardcore and they are um, now,back then I would.
I would look inside and out,because you you never know where
you might get tripped up.
Now it's my understanding whichagain could be dead wrong that
what they use to quote unquote,scan the computer to find sheet

(34:53):
detection software.
They use this access to, likethe NET framework, shared
resources upon the OS, thatmultiple programs are accessing
and all that is in their terms.
In their terms, it's somethingthat's collected in logs.

Tim Shoop (35:08):
Wow To my knowledge To me that Because that allows
them.
In their terms, it's somethingthat's collected in law.

Wow, to my knowledge that, because that
allows them.

Tim Shoop (35:12):
That's invasive.

And that's the thing.
It feels invasive, but that'show they keep the technically
like to the letter of the law,the anonymity, the privacy that
they're required to maintain.
That's how they do it.
Facebook algorithms they workexactly the same way.
They go off of likes anddislikes and things like that.
They don't have a like a.
Oh asa likes this.

(35:34):
They have this profile likes x,y and z reacts to this.
This and this.

Edge (35:40):
This is what they want to see so just throwing another
thing out there too.
Yeah, aside from just likecheat software.
Another way around it isthey're inventing gaming
controllers that have like aimbots and stuff built into the
controller.
You just plug it up via USB toyour computer and the cheat

(36:01):
detection software is scanningyour device manager for USB
devices.
That isn't like a common windowsdevice right so it'll flag if
it detects you have some weirdthird-party controller plugged
into your computer while you'replaying some game, or your phone
, or and who does this?

(36:21):
A lot of the manufacturer orthe game developers these days,
wow.
And what's great, and it's kindof.

it's kind of funny though, cause, like the,
the, the, that kind of visceralreaction that your son had like
I am very familiar with thatwhere you're just like I lost
all of it.
Now back, but back in my day,cause I'm getting close enough
to being able to say that often,but back in my day when we
played games.
If something like that were tohappen, it doesn't matter if we
put money into it, how much timewe spent on it, how important

(36:53):
it was to us If we went to ourparents and were like man, I
can't believe this happened.
Upset they'd be like dude, itis a game, get over it.
They had no idea just howimpactful's.

Tim Shoop (37:05):
Interesting, because this is actually a good lesson
yeah, it's, it's a phenomenallesson be nice, be kind right,
treat others as you would wantto be treated right, and none of
this would happen at all, butin all fairness, yeah, is um the
consequence of them thinkingthat you're cheating, even if

(37:28):
you didn't cheat right?
Is it fair to be permabannedfrom something that you have an
investment in, and an investmentmeaning using vbucks or robux
to buy in-game purchases.

Yeah, um, I fair , absolutely not.
Uh, that that one very easy tosay, that that's that's a shame
on you, epic games but at thesame time, because I am gonna
play a devil's advocate no, Ilike that yeah uh, they don't
have many other choices because,since you're not buying the

(38:06):
game, you don't own the game.

Tim Shoop (38:07):
You're playing in their sandbox and I want a fair
playing field for my children toplay in right that, um, treats
everybody fairly, exactly, andkeeps the baddies out, uh, and
things like that, and and givesthem a nice, safe place to play,
right, but at the same point,you're going to devastate a

(38:28):
child by just permabanting,banning them and not giving them
a real reason, not showing themproof or evidence, yeah, of
what it is you did wrong.
Right now, if they couldprovide evidence, right,
especially to me, yes, I wouldfeel differently about this
topic but they didn't provide meanything.

(38:48):
Even the responses to me werestupid.
Right.
Now most companies… You'regetting me riled up, sam Well.

I am a ginger, I have that effect on people.
So from what I can tell because, again, I'm not familiar with
epic games is particular termsof service and how they do
things, but most of these gameslike live online services where
they do the have bans and theydo end up banning you.
Almost all of them have anappeals process like a way to

(39:19):
appeal the decision and it isjust hoop after hoop.

Tim Shoop (39:24):
Well, they will get back to you.
I heard they generally twoweeks they.
They generally won't.
Generally they won get back toyou in like two weeks.
They generally won't.

Generally they won't, because typically
something like that getstriggered by an automated system
, so they usually have the logsto back it.

Tim Shoop (39:38):
There's the trigger key, the trigger keyword
automation.
Automation is great.
We use a lot of it at ourcompany.

Oh my goodness, we could not.
We could not without.

Tim Shoop (39:47):
But I think when it comes to this kind of stuff,
especially when you're dealingwith children, I feel like
there's an obligation to treatthem with fairness by having
human oversight and not justrelying on automation, because
automation isn't perfect.
No, it's not, and it makesmistakes, just like humans do,

(40:09):
but there are different kinds ofmistakes, because it's A plus B
equals C, or if, then what?
It's that kind of learning.
So I feel in this case thereshould have been proof, which
was never provided.
The proof is the other kidbragged to everybody, right,

(40:30):
that he got him banned.
Yeah, which shame on that kid.
Uh, I'm not gonna name names,but shame on him for doing what
he did just because he got upsetin a game.
Right, I don't think you shouldbe able to do that.
Um, so educating children onacceptable behavior and the
consequences of breaking rules,right, if I had evidence, I

(40:54):
would sit my child down and talkto him.
Right, I don't have evidence,yeah, so I'm gonna side with the
child until I have evidence,because he is innocent until
proven guilty, not the other wayaround, unless you, unless you
get into politics, and then it'susually the other way around,
that's true, I mean.

Edge (41:12):
I think another thing to consider is these companies that
have, you know, like fortnite,roblox, they have millions of
players every single day.
They're cheating, you know,detection software or harassment
policies are banning hundredsof thousands of people all the
time.
Yeah, every single person thatgets banned is all going to send

(41:35):
a response and saying why I getbanned.
I didn't do anything wrongthere's no help.

Tim Shoop (41:40):
That's big enough to control that, yeah and so it's.

Edge (41:43):
I don't know it's just kind of picking your poison on
whether you're going to start afire enough to get someone to
notice it.

Tim Shoop (41:50):
I feel like if you are going to develop a game that
becomes the monstrosity thatFortnite has become, then you
have an obligation to theplayers, the players and the
parents of the players, becausethe demographic there is tween.
Right.

(42:10):
It's a big tween game, right,and you have an obligation to
the parents.
I just don't think it's fair.

And I agree with that.
I do agree with thatwholeheartedly.
It's like they should.
But at the end of the day, theonly people they have to answer
to, the only people they need tokeep happy, are shareholders.
So it's real easy to take thecheaper option instead of the
right option.

Edge (42:36):
I mean.
So what if and just hear me out, what if?
Their account obviously ismarked as a child account?
It's an account for a minor.
Um, minors make stupiddecisions all the time.
Their brains are not developeduntil they're much older than
that they're, they're going todo stuff.

They don't write laws, they don't know the rules
?

Edge (42:58):
what if for minors whenever they break these
policies?
What if they just did soft bansor required sort of parental
consent before checking it backin?
Because it's, it's going tohappen?
What about rehabilitation?

Tim Shoop (43:12):
what about if you?

Edge (43:13):
like a training program?

Tim Shoop (43:15):
well, think about it if you have a child that broke a
rule, right?
That's a teaching moment rightin my book.
I don't have evidence of therule being broken but if you can
provide that evidence to aparent right or to the child
with the parent and and have theparent sit down with them right
and then be able to maybeprovide some sort of in-game

(43:39):
monitoring for the parent toeasily monitor that child's
activity within the game right.
That would be a win-win all theway around.
Now I monitor, I'm able tocontrol my kids internet right
or their activity, right, butthat's, that's device-based and
it's within our network right,but it's not within the actual

(44:01):
game.
I can see what game they'vebeen playing, I can see what
sites they've gone to, I can seewhat they've done.
Yeah, so I can get a choke holdon it if they break my rules,
right, but I can't inside thegame.
I don't know every little thingthey're doing other than what?

I hear coming out of the room right and that
actually leads to spicy devil'sadvocate portion, right right
For the company itself.
Just the amount of resourcesthat it would take to actually
be able to moderate these towhat I think we could all agree
on would be sufficient levels ofmoderation, safety and freedom

(44:41):
for the kids to have so they canhave that safe place to play.
But at the same time, at whatpoint can the company say, okay,
this is on the parent, not onus.
You know what I mean?
Like that's, that's the big andI know that's the one.
That immediately you're likewho's their customer?

Tim Shoop (45:01):
Is it the parent or is it the child?
The child is that player.
So technically the child's thecustomer.
That influences the parent tobuy the skin inside the game.
Exactly so they want to keepthat child happy.
Yes.
Now, my son spent hundreds ofdollars.
He probably would have spenthundreds more right so is it a
good business decision for themto permaban a kid based on their

(45:24):
automation, where they have noevidence or proof that they can
provide me right?
Or are they holding back fromproviding me that evidence or
proof because they don't want itto turn in to some other legal
battle?
So well, go ahead and we'regoing to segue.
We're going to use that as asegue to get over into, uh,
legal and ethical right concerns.

(45:45):
Okay, before we close our show,okay, that sounds good.

Um, now with it when it comes to, uh, comes to
the legal aspect of it, right,the withholding of it, not
providing any of it.
The term, again, it's in theterms of service that they don't
actually have to provide you.

Tim Shoop (46:04):
I know let's have a beer.

Yeah, let's have a beer and let's move into it.

Tim Shoop (46:07):
You're behind.
You need to finish your beer.
Edge is going to introduce thelast and final beer, and then
we're going to talk about thelegal and ethical consideration
when we allow our kids to playthese games, yes, or folks not
let them play the games, right.
We want our kids to have funbut they're not having fun.
If it's this easy to destroykids spirit, right go edge all

(46:31):
right.

Edge (46:31):
So our next beer here is the Maduro Brown Ale from the
Cigar City Brewery in Tampa,florida.
The brewer's description statesthat it's a northern English
brown ale brewed with flakedoats, full in body and silky on
the palate.
Maduro Brown Ale's chocolateand espresso notes are rounded

(46:54):
out by toffee-like qualities anda light woody hop presence.

Tim Shoop (46:59):
All right, since we drink beer on this show, I am
very blunt about the ones I likeand the ones I don't like, and
in defense of this company.
First of all, I don't likenutty brown ales.
I don't like this beer.
How about you?
Well, and it is a winter, Imean that is a winter, it's um

(47:25):
the description was very wellwritten, like so well written.

But they could have just said like hey, have
you ever wanted to drink?

Tim Shoop (47:39):
But they could have just said like hey, have you
ever wanted to drink carbonatedmud?

water.
You're a lot more harsh than Iam.
Tim, did you like it or are younot drinking?
I'm not drinking.
Would you like?

Tim Shoop (47:45):
to try mine after we've endorsed this beer in the
way we have.
Do you want to try it?

Edge (47:51):
Oh yeah, I am all about toffee and espresso.

Tim Shoop (47:58):
Oh, that was in the description, wasn't it?
It's just not my.

It's not my thing now that you said coffee,
I get it now yeah, it's, it saystoffee and espresso toffee and
espresso.

Tim Shoop (48:07):
I do like.
I do like espresso ice creamthe last one.
I don't like it in my beer so,yeah, the last one I liked,
though, uh, so let's get intolegal it still tastes like I'm
trying to turn acorns into ajawbreaker oh, how do you do
that?
You step on them and crush them, and then no, you just put
dirty acorns in your mouth allright, legal and ethical

(48:35):
consideration.
Let's get back to our childrenyes, sir legal and ethical
considerations when it comes toplaying these games.
Uh, and the perma bands and theand the temp bands that come
along with it, um, which I'velearned a lot about this week.
Um, let's, before we get intothat, let's talk about epics.
Legal battles yes, they've hada few now, obviously, um and I,

(49:03):
and then I'm going to go back tomy story and talk about what I
dug into in their terms ofservice right, and what really
was an eye-opener for me, otherthan the invasiveness of all
this monitoring software.
Uh, apple and google theyfought both of them and
obviously to for for, uh, theirtheir store sales and being able

(49:24):
to sell in their stores um.
They centered aroundmicrotransactions.
Was that google or was thatapple, the microtransactions?

uh, both actually um.
Why don't we?

Tim Shoop (49:33):
dive into that.
I'm going to give you the floorwhile I sip on this wonderful
beer that we just spoke about.

And I also feel kind of bad about it.
Edgebuddy, do you want to reada synopsis of it?
A synopsis of yeah, just of thelike hey, broad, general, this
is what happened.
Well, actually it's not needed.
That's exactly what I was justasked to do.

Edge (49:59):
Anyway, we passed that off .
Yeah, I know right, I was justlike hey, you want to do like a
beer?

No, okay, all right.
So essentially, back in.
What was it?
2021 or 2022?
I have actually something ready2021.
Okay, uh, I have actuallysomething right 2021, okay.
So originally it was epic gamessued apple.
Uh, because on their app store,uh, they force you to actually

(50:24):
go through the their built-inapp store for payments.
So any credit card processing,anything like that, was done by
Apple and they treat in-apppurchases like sales commission.
So just to be able to have yourgame in the App Store with

(50:44):
in-app purchases, part of therequirement was going through
Apple and you would end uphaving to pay any of them.
Any developer would have to pay30% out to Apple as commission.
Now, that's just the commissionpart.
Apple also processes theircredit cards for them.

(51:06):
Now, credit card processingalso takes a percentage of what
you purchase percentage of whatyou purchase.
So anytime, like, for instance,like if you're at the gas
station and you swipe your cardat the checkout, the actual gas
station ends up having I thinkthe last time I checked it was
like 3.65% was the basic level,or 365 basis points, and they

(51:31):
would take that amount out ofeach and every transaction.
So if you have a $10 check,you'd end up paying 30 cents,
and that's fair.
But when it comes to the Epicand Apple, if you were to pay
$10 for something, apple wouldget three, so you would end up
only getting 70%.
And since they have their ownpayment options, they have their

(51:51):
own payment provider and theirown portals and ways to go
through it.
Apple was intentionallyblocking it to force them to go
through the app store.
All about money, all aboutmoney.
So now google did the samething.

Tim Shoop (52:05):
Uh, now so what did fortnight?
What did these companies do?
Discount, oh yeah, so they theypromote something, yes, and
they actually what?

what caused them to actually file the lawsuit
was because they got uh removedfrom the app store unlisted,
kicked out because so who sued,who so?

Edge (52:25):
app epic sued apple epic sued apple right jump in here
real quick so thank you forcorrecting me essentially what
happens is everyone knows iOShas their complete operating
system locked down.
If you want to put an app in theApp Store for Apple, you have
to play by their rules.
Any transactions that happensgoes through Apple's system and

(52:47):
they take a 30% commission fromthat.
So what Fortnite did?
Because they want to make themoney from it.
They want more people buying it.
They can sell their V-Bucks andtheir stuff for 30% cheaper if
they went a roundabout waythrough Apple.
What they did is theyimplemented their own external

(53:10):
link that allows people onmobile devices to follow a link
to purchase something outside ofthe apple store.
Apple detected that and bannedthem.
However, fortnight was fullyexpecting it, epic gamers was
fully expecting it, and they dida whole campaign launched
around it with hashtag freefortnight or whatever, to get it

(53:33):
back on, and they sued thembecause they thought you know
apple was doing a monopoly orwhatever was.
You know shouldn't be forcingthem to do this.
They did the same thing withgoogle.
Now, google is an android-basedoperating system.
They don't force people to usethe play store.
It's's open source.

(53:53):
There's multiple app storesthat you can put your apps into.
However, there is a differencewith them.
They have some differentpolicies.
They try to steer peopletowards using the Google Play
Store, saying hey, this is whateveryone uses.

(54:13):
If you want your app to be thenumber one app, you got to use
the google play store.

You can go somewhere else.
So they essentially held seoover their head like hey, play
with us or don't get picked up,right, okay?

Edge (54:26):
so that was the difference , but essentially it was epic
games trying to sue apple andgoogle for a monopoly in these
kinds of things.

Yeah, because essentially so they lost to.

Edge (54:35):
Apple.
Well, Google lost to Epic andEpic lost to Apple.
Kind of Apple.
There's like three points inthat lawsuit, and it was the one
that Apple forces people to gothrough their app store and
doesn't open it up for externallinks to purchase somewhere else

(54:59):
.
Yeah, that was the only.
Thing.

Right, because, with Apple, apple ended up
instituting a new policy in goodfaith and that was enough to
let the judge drop it.
Essentially, they changed it towhere, instead of getting, 30%
of every transaction comes tothe store.
They cut it to 24 for largedevelopers and 12 for small

(55:21):
developers.
Now I do not know the criteriafor large versus small developer
, um, but that is something Iwould be interested to look.
I think it's like a one milliondollar commit um okay revenue in
a year or something like thatnow that to me sounds fair,
because if you're, if you'repulling, if your app, your game,
is pulling in a mil a year,then I.

(55:42):
But at the same time, becausehere's the thing, and and this
is the reason why I I actuallyI'm with epic on this one is
because these you have apple andgoogle, essentially controlling
both the marketing platform andthe payments, and they do it

(56:03):
under the guise of the.
The ecosystem that they'rebuilding out, right like apple,
is one.
I'm sure everyone listening tothis knows talking points that
apple has come up with toconvince you that the ecosystem
that they have built in is inplace, so everything works
better, which is true to acertain extent.
But, um, I know now, I knowit's.

(56:26):
It's kind of related to theepic games lawsuit, because the
epic games lawsuit kind of gotthe attention on apple that they
don't want to have.
But it's also why you can kindof understand why an additional
lawsuit comes against Apple,because when you stifle that,
when you're pulling ineverything and not allowing

(56:46):
anyone else to compete, itstifles innovation.

Tim Shoop (56:49):
So it makes sense for Apple to be getting poked by
any trust laws well you know,when my son told me how much
money he had invested in thisaccount it's a little over 500
bucks over several years I meanhe didn't, and I would call that
responsible spending in a gamelike that.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I guessyeah, for amount over time.

(57:11):
I've always been against it.
But you want your children tohave fun.
You want them to hang out withtheir friends.
It's like when we used to hangout at the playground or at the
ballpark or whatever.

Pool hall.

Tim Shoop (57:25):
Pool and alley.
I went to a pool and alleywhich had pool tables.

That's actually.
I have one.

Tim Shoop (57:32):
So you want them to have fun, right, but when he
told me how much money over time, was invested and that they
just permabanned them.
And my first thought, yeah, wasthis has class action lawsuit
written all over it yeah andthen, when I went into their
terms of service, the very firstparagraph in large caps is

(57:55):
their protections againstquote-unquote class action
lawsuits, because obviously I'mnot the first person that
thought to bring a class actionlawsuit against them for the
same reason and I'm gonna go asfar as to say that before epic
was like, epic was formed withthat clause in their terms of

(58:16):
service, because this issomething that has been going on
in the gaming industry sinceits inception.

Like, when it comes to live service games,
this has been the norm.
Now, the arguments for it, Iunderstand right, because the
thing is like, when you'retalking about, like, all the
protections that you have withyour kids set up and everything,
I'm just like oh yeah, I havethose too.
Like I filtered DNS on mynetwork to prevent certain

(58:43):
traffic.
I also locked down theirdevices themselves.
But the big thing that Epicknows and it's something that we
know all too well as well, andthat is these days, kids are
better with computers than theirparents are.
You and I are the exceptionbecause, well, let's be honest
here, we're tech gods, so weknow how this stuff works inside

(59:04):
and out.
So when we don't want our kidsdoing something on that computer
, it ain't happening.
But that's not the reality forother parents.
So I feel like Epic has to overcorrect on that.
But at the same time, like itis devastating to have years of
work ripped out of you with apermaban and not and not even

(59:28):
having an avenue to be heardyeah, I like that they have a
safe haven for kids to play inright well as safe as the
internet.

Tim Shoop (59:35):
You know, and these microtransactions and these
things they're doing.
I mean, I get it.
It's recurring revenue.
It's a way for a company to bemore sustainable.
There's more of a growthtrajectory for companies with
recurring monthly or annualrevenue.
They give the game away forfree for that very reason,

(59:57):
because they know they're goingto make their money from all
these kids that want to spendmoney inside the game.
My daughter plays a game or sheused to.
I don't know if she's stillplaying this game inside a
roblox called bricksburg.
A pretty cool game, you canbuild your little mansion, you
earn and yeah and you build andall three of mine play that
together.
It's a pretty cool it is niftyit's neat.
She built all kinds of crazyplaces but at the same time you

(01:00:20):
know and they want to spendmoney.
She's a little bit more thriftywith her spend in the game my
son.
He is very competitive, so I canunderstand respect yeah I mean,
you know, and he's good, he'sreally really good at that game
and it's really a shame that hecan no longer play it with what

(01:00:42):
he's built up, because someonethat I don't know made a claim
Right, and you don't even haveverifiable proof that what was
going on so?

Sam The IT Guy (01:00:55):
go ahead.
Yeah, that's what to say,because this is I don't.
I don't need to be like, oh,like, let me shoot down every,
every point that comes up,because I, in all honesty, I
agree with you 100 percent.
Like, 100 percent, it's just.
This isn't a new concept to me.
This is what this is in my, inmy, in my head, what it's always
been.
This is what this is in my head, what it's always been.

(01:01:16):
This is, well, the terms ofservice to play these games.

Tim Shoop (01:01:21):
Well, I call it bullshit.

Sam The IT Guy (01:01:22):
Agreed, agreed.

Tim Shoop (01:01:24):
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for getting nerdy
with us for an hour Again.
We brought on Sam the IT guyand thank you, edge, for
producing another successfulNerds on Tap show.
We hope you check out moreepisodes of nerds on tap,
everything from.
We talk about everything fromelectric vehicles to what do we

(01:01:45):
cover in our last segment?
What if?
Yeah, it was wirelesselectricity, future technologies
.
Obviously wireless technologytechnically well wireless
electricity actually alreadyexists because you have it in
wireless charging, but we wantto see it in more mainstream use
.
And while you're at it, checkout Digital Boardwalk TV and

(01:02:05):
check out some of the skits thatwe've made here in-house.
You might find one starring Samthe IT guy right over here,
this sexy redheaded beast.
So thank you again for gettingnerdy with us for an hour.
We appreciate it.
We hope your children have agood, safe gameplay inside any

(01:02:26):
of these games, and here's tothem not getting perma-banned.
Have a great day Cheers myfellow nerds and beer lovers.
Stay tuned for more Nerds onTap.
Oh, and one more thing Help usspread the nerdy love and the

(01:02:47):
love for grape brews by sharingthis podcast with your friends,
colleagues and fellow beerenthusiasts.
Let's build a community thatembraces curiosity.
Colleagues and fellow beerenthusiasts, let's build a
community that embracescuriosity, innovation and the
enjoyment of a cold one.

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