December 9, 2024 • 61 mins
In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we’re joined by Aaron Saint-James to explore the critical differences between traditional accommodations and Universal Design for Learning (UDL). Aaron shares his journey and professional insights, highlighting why a proactive approach to inclusion in higher education is essential.
Questions:
- Tell us a bit about yourself
- Tell us a bit about your work
- Proactive vs. Reactive: Rethinking Inclusion in Higher Education
- Breaking the Mold: Why Accommodations Alone Aren’t Enough
- UDL in Action: Practical Steps for Educators
- Future-Proofing Education: The Role of UDL in Emerging Learning Environments
- Building Inclusive Universities: The Intersection of Policy, Practice, and Culture
- Where can people connect with you
Join us for this thought-provoking episode, filled with practical advice, professional insights, and stories that shine a light on this often-overlooked topic.
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#UniversalDesignForLearning #InclusiveEducation #Neurodiversity
#UDLInAction #Accessibility #InclusiveTeaching #EducationForAll
#EquityInEducation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Will (00:07):
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Neurodivergent Mates.
I'm your host Will Wheeler,join with my main man, aaron St
(00:30):
James.
What's going on, brother?
Aaron (00:34):
Not much.
I'm pretty keen to dig intosome juicy topics.
Will (00:38):
Some juicy topics.
We were just talking about yougetting ready to move shortly,
my man.
Aaron (00:43):
Yes, never an exciting thing or something to look
forward to, but it's got to bedone.
Will (00:50):
so, yeah, yeah, I gotta admit, moving sucks, man.
I saw someone moving into likethe apartment.
Actually we got, um, our, ourrent had been put up and, like I
always get worried, I'm like,oh my god, they yeah, yeah, but
they only put it up by $10.
So I was like you know what Imean?
That's not too bad when it'slike $250, that's when it's like
(01:12):
holy crap, man, that's when youstart to freak out.
But no, all cool, all cool.
Well, I wish you the best ofluck with your move.
Yeah, thank you, I'm going toneed all the luck I can get.
Did you want to plug that?
Aaron (01:32):
you might have some furniture up for grab shortly.
I've gotten rid of the stuffthat I don't need to.
Yeah, I'm good.
Will (01:37):
Okay, so you're good.
All right, I'm just trying tohelp out where I can you know,
but I tell you what right.
We've got a really cool topicthat we're going to be covering
today.
So accommodations versusuniversal design for learning.
So really cool topic there.
But before we do get stuck inanything, I might just do a
(01:58):
little bit of housekeeping foranyone who hasn't already done
so.
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(02:20):
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(02:40):
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too.
Warning, some discussions may betriggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call
emergency services.
We are not doctors.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and or strategies.
Also, if you've got anyquestions during the podcast
(03:02):
today.
Please chuck them in thecomments section of wherever
you're watching this live.
So if you're watching thisthrough Facebook Live or you're
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(03:23):
them as best as we can.
Aaron, you ready my man.
Aaron (03:27):
I am ready to rumble.
Will (03:29):
Awesome, all right, cool.
So we might just start off witha pretty basic one today.
So, luke, share us a little bitabout yourself.
I obviously know a lot aboutyou, but share with our
listeners a little bit about whoyou are.
Aaron (03:45):
Hey everyone.
So my name is Aaron St James.
A little bit about me to setthe scene.
So I'm a mature age student.
I'm also queer.
I'm neurodivergent, so I've gotADHD and dyslexia potential,
some autistic symptoms, but notenough to get fully diagnosed
because I'm quite good atcommunicating and I'm quite an
(04:07):
extrovert at times.
So my psychiatrist is like thatdoes not, uh, you don't fit the
mold for that, so we'll seelater on.
I also have a physicaldisability, um, and I want to
get into like what disability isand like what it encompasses,
because I think it's just morethan the physical aspects.
(04:28):
Like you can't say my physicaldisability because I have, like
a back injury and I have chronicpain.
So, yeah, I want to kind ofelaborate more on like what
disability is and how it's kindof changed.
All the perception or theunderstanding of disability has
changed over time as peoplebecome more aware that, like
(04:50):
visible disabilities are a formof disability too and we have to
recognize that.
Like I have chronic healthconditions such as chronic
fatigue, fibromyalgia andchronic pain, which
unfortunately comes from, Iguess, the injury that I had and
the compounding stress of beinga mature-aged student, starting
(05:13):
uni at 30 after being a cheffor over 10 years.
So yeah, that's a little bitabout myself.
Will (05:19):
I didn't know you were a chef man.
Whereabouts were you a chef?
Aaron (05:23):
I've been a chef for a few places.
I used to do corporate cateringin uh brangaroo.
I used to work for a uhcatering company which we did uh
catering on, like super yachtsuh worked for at venues like
gucci and ferrari and stuff.
It was pretty sick.
That last role is where I hadmy back, so I'm not spewing, man
(05:46):
spewing.
Will (05:47):
I heard that like um in the hospitality sector.
I was only thinking about theother day, you know everyone
right why is that?
How do you just know everyone?
It seems like everyone I knowwho works in hospitality knows
everyone.
Aaron (06:06):
It's like living in like a country town where, like
everybody just knows everybody'sbusiness, I guess, because
there's like circuits.
There's like the cateringcircuit, there's like the
restaurant circuit, there's likejust different circuits and I
guess there's like hiringcompanies and stuff.
So like you just kind of Idon't know.
(06:28):
I used to work at Fox Studiostoo, which was pretty exciting
because I think Chris Hemsworthwas there once when they were
filming one of the Guardians ofthe Galaxy movies and like some
of those chefs like catered atlike the olympics and stuff like
that.
So it's just like, yeah, it'shard to explain, but there's, I
(06:52):
guess, yeah, little justcircuits and like pockets and
clicks that I have within thehospitality business and do you
know what I sort of learned aswell, especially when I was
doing a little bit ofhospitality when I was overseas
on your days off.
Will (07:09):
You know the hospitality people really know how to party.
Aaron (07:15):
What do you reckon?
Yes, it's full of alcohol andother substance abuse.
Will (07:29):
Anyway, we'll save that one for another podcast day.
Nice, nice, nice, nice.
But yeah, no, that'sinteresting, I never knew.
I didn't realize you were achef.
Aaron (07:36):
So you, you cook up some pretty awesome meals still, or
you're just like yeah I can cookand I do love cooking, but I
actually love like styling anddesigning food more than cooking
it itself.
I think my adhd likes, yeah,the design part and like it's
(07:57):
really like I love focusing andmaking things look really like
neat and tidy.
Uh, and because I've got ibsand other health conditions,
like I can't cook the food likeyeah, okay so it's like a dairy
kind of gluten kind of a lot ofthings.
(08:19):
So it's just like my cookingrange is kind of limited so it's
just kind of made cooking a bitboring fun anymore, but yeah
anyway.
Will (08:31):
Oh well, onto.
I suppose these things happenfor a reason and you're moving
on to bigger and better things.
Yeah, so you know, um, Iobviously first met you through,
you know your program, throughunswg.
About what was that?
Two years ago or three yearsago, I can't remember, 20 might
have been even longer than that2022 or 2023, I think.
(08:55):
Yes, two or three years ago, Ithink yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I think I was.
I think I was still living aride then, I can't remember.
But, um, you know, and Isuppose the big thing that we
first really started talkingabout was, um, uh,
neurodiversity what's happeningin, you know, vocational
education and in higher ed aswell.
(09:17):
So you know you're doing a fairbit of stuff there at unsw, um,
but look, tell us a little bitabout the work that you actually
are doing.
Aaron (09:26):
Okay, so I entered.
Well, actually, I was diagnosedat 27.
I'm currently 34.
So I started uni at 30 in 2020.
And in my second year, in mybest friend actually, she was a
co-founder of the DiversifiedProject, which I am the student
(09:49):
lead and actual research officerfor, and through that project
it all started off with myfriend.
She got like an assessmentbrief for one of her like design
assessments that she didn'tfind accessible, so she didn't
know how to like process itproperly.
But as a design student, ratherthan just saying that was an
(10:12):
issue, she was like, well, whydon't I just redesign it and
then see what the professorthinks?
And he fucking loved it.
And um, then, outside ofuniversity, my friend Josie and
I were just like, why do we feellike we're dumb and like we're
broken and that, like in ahigher education system we feel
(10:33):
like we're like not good enoughand when we're intelligent
people and we've got a lot goingfor us, but in this system we
just feel like we're not, it'snot meant for us.
So, with those conversationshappening and then, uh, josie
going to her professor, we endedup getting a seed funding grant
to start the diversifiedproject and initially that
(10:55):
started off um like more studentkind of side, where we took um
a whole bunch of neurodivergentstudents problems within their
courses and through a series ofworkshops which we used like
co-design and co-production.
So we were working withstudents, academics and staff.
Majority of them identified asneurodivergent, not all of them
(11:17):
but we created a set ofsolutions to the problems that
the students are facing in theircourses and then we created a
set of recommendations which weproposed to the university.
Then we got more funding and wewent into the second phase, uh,
which is we've created aninclusive education toolkit.
This is more academic facing.
(11:37):
So uh, now it's like we knowthe students, we know what some
of the students issues are like.
We can never find out all theissues, but a lot of them
overlap.
And now we've gone on to theacademic side of things where
it's like okay, well, we knowstudents are facing x issues
like let's try and solve them bycreating an inclusive education
(11:59):
toolkit, uh, which can helpacademics kind of understand
student experience.
And we've got five key themeswhich has like a it's quite
basic um, but it's quitecomprehensive at the same time
because it's like multi-facetedtoolkit.
But um, it's basic in the sensethat, like I work within
(12:22):
accessibility and inclusion, sofor for me, these should be
standard things and anyeducation-focused academic or
like teaching staff should bedoing some of the things that
we've got in our checklist.
Like some people might be like,this is just very basic and I'm
already doing these things, sowhy bother?
But like we want to get theacademics who don't know much
(12:44):
anything about neurodiversity,neuro inclusion or making, uh,
the education system moreaccessible, and we want to try
to bring them in as much aspossible, because they're the
ones that need, like we need tolike help change their mindsets,
raise awareness.
We we need to help educate them, we need to make accessibility
(13:06):
and inclusion accessible forthem so they understand the
importance of it.
If I go back on a little tangent, halfway through this I
actually met Will through we hadlike a side project called
Storybox, so the DiversifiedProject collaborated with
(13:27):
Storybox, which is run throughSM projects, esem projects, and
what we did within this Tangentproject was we took
neurodivergent people'sexperiences of how they
navigated the outside world or,yeah, the outside environment,
and we kind of digitalize theirstories into like artwork or
(13:52):
like, yeah, digital media andthen we showcase them on this
kind of cool digital cube whichis called the story box, which
was really interesting because,like, we're raising awareness
and providing an understandingof how neurodivergent people
navigate the world, but it's ina public space, which it's just.
(14:13):
It's quite powerful andimpactful when, like you're
watching this, likethree-dimensional cube, like
with four screens, kind ofsharing people's experiences in
a public setting, it's like itwas quite a cool project.
I even had my mom come alongbecause my mom's neurodivergent
and, um, yeah, it was prettycool stuff just to see that like
(14:37):
something like neurodiversityand neurodivergent people's
experiences was publiclydisplayed and people are slowly
becoming more aware, I guessalso through social media.
Like neurodiversity is trendingand there's a lot of like, oh
yeah, how to get diagnosed withADHD, how to manage symptoms,
(14:59):
like all this stuff.
But it's, yeah, this was justlike people's real raw emotions
and their experiences of thestruggles they face when
navigating, uh, challengingenvironments, and it's
definitely.
Will (15:14):
It's definitely interesting when you can see it
in pictures, correct, you know?
Aaron (15:19):
I think that was the thing that I took away from it
yeah, like seeing someone'sstory, like, whether it's like
just a series of pictures orlike a digital kind of animation
or just like someone's photowith words behind it, it's just
so powerful and there were somany cool stories and yeah just,
(15:41):
and yeah just.
It was really cool.
Will (15:43):
Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy, the good old days eh.
Aaron (15:46):
Yeah.
Will (15:49):
No, cool, cool, but look, getting into.
You know what we were coming totalk about today.
So, like we said before westarted, we're going to cover
like accommodations versusuniversal design of learning.
So what I did want to startwith was the first question here
proactive versus reactiverethinking inclusion in higher
(16:11):
education.
What's your thoughts basedaround that?
Now, you did say a little bit,like you know, we've got
toolkits and trying to get notnecessarily the people who
already know aboutneurodiversity, but the people
who don't know aboutneurodiversity is going to be
crucial in really creating thisenvironment, not just that where
(16:34):
you study, but you knowAustralia, wide, worldwide, all
of that type of stuff.
What is your thoughts on that?
Because obviously there stillis a real big gap, but you know
we are getting closer than whatwe were.
Aaron (16:48):
Things are definitely progressing.
I think inclusion should beproactive.
It definitely shouldn't bereactive.
I think in some cases it isreactive because there are, like
certain, like the DisabilityDiscrimination Act and other
education acts, that kind offorce education systems to kind
(17:08):
of meet certain compliancelevels which, to be honest, like
this is just my opinion, but Idon't think they're living up to
those standards and I thinkthat, like accommodations, they
can often fix barriers after thefact.
But UDL kind of anticipatesdiverse needs from the start,
(17:31):
which reduces the reliance onaccommodations.
So I always think of it as, likeaccommodations, they kind of
even the playing field somewhat,but it's like this is a
neurotypical level and this is aneurodivergent level and when
you get accommodation, juststill like not to the same level
(17:54):
, but like you are getting anaccommodation could be, for
example, like uh, as a thirdyear molecular biology student
coming from a low SES background, like I didn't finish year 12.
I didn't have much of apositive education experience
because of my dyslexia andundiagnosed ADHD, like I was
(18:16):
always told, like if you justapplied yourself you would be
really good at this, and it'sjust like.
It's like I can, like I can forevery hour of like an exam, for
example.
Like I get an extra hour andsome people might be like that's
like way too much, like why doyou get that?
But it's like I process things.
I'm very intelligent, but Iprocess things in a much slower
(18:39):
pace than your average person doyou find that hour actually
does work?
it does, like it doesn't get melike thds all the time, um, but
it does help me understandquestions.
For example, because I thinkmost of the time, like you,
spend more time deciphering whatthe question is than actually
(19:00):
like finding out the answer,which is stupid, because it's
like, if the question is notaccessible, like how do you
expect a student to be able tofunction efficiently in an
environment to get the bestgrades when, like, the answers
aren't actually the issue, it'sthe questions in the first place
?
Will (19:20):
So you're finding that the questions are a big problem for
you a lot of the time.
Is that a curiosity?
Aaron (19:26):
Not just me.
I know a lot of students whokind of just like they, spend a
lot of time deciphering thequestions rather than like oh
yeah, no, I totally agree andthat's why I sort of was like is
this something?
Will (19:39):
because I have heard it not only just say in university
but in vocational education aswell and I think from what the
feedback I've got from people isthat the people writing these
things sometimes they're noteven coming from the background
of, like, the topic that's thequestions are being written from
.
If that makes sense, you knowthey're not say if it's about I
(20:02):
don't know bloody um science,they're all they're not science
people who are writing thosequestions, if that makes sense I
can't speak towards thevocational sector, but I think
within higher education youwould have more like science
people focusing on sciencequestions.
Aaron (20:19):
Um, but I I heard this good explanation of like
dyslexia the other day.
It's like imagine you'relearning Chinese for the first
time but then, putting that intoperspective, you're answering
questions in an exam for thefirst time because you've never
seen these questions before,because every practice exam you
have, it's like the questionsare never the same and they're
(20:40):
never worded the same either.
Or if it's in a differentformat, like a drag and drop
thing or like a pull-down thingof like if it's displayed in
different ways that you haven'tseen yet.
Like I have chronic, likecomplex PTSD, so it's like
adjusting to something new thatI've never seen before.
I've got to it takes me a lotof time.
(21:01):
But then there's also mydyslexia and then my adhd, which
encompasses anxiety, to kind ofjust navigate this whole space.
But the thing that I was goingto get back to you before, it's
like imagine learning chinesefor the first time and then
getting an hour extra to learn.
It's like do you think thatwould help?
Will (21:19):
yeah, exactly, it wouldn't help me like it's like.
Aaron (21:24):
This is what neurodivergent people and
students have to face on a dailybasis not all of them, because
we all uh have differentexperiences and our brains work
in different ways, but likethat's an example of like a
dyslexic, how a dyslexic personfunctions sometimes so can I
just say right, I was in a panel, gee, a few months ago now, and
(21:47):
someone goes hey, is it truethat if you read a book more
than once, you will thenunderstand it perfectly?
Will (21:56):
and I'm sitting there thinking, oh man, I could read
the book a million times but Istill wouldn't get it.
And then one of the people onthe panel said yes, that's
correct.
And I'm like what, what thehell?
You know what I mean.
This is the type of informationpeople are putting out there.
Aaron (22:14):
There's some really intelligent people who are
memorization is in a form ofintelligence.
I gotta set that straight andthat's how education systems, I
guess, view intelligence.
Like the better your grades orthe better at learning you are,
like the better your grades willbe, and it's like, well, that's
not the case.
(22:34):
It like memorization is in aform of intelligence, critical
thinking and critical analysis,and like emotional intelligence
and like deconstructingsomething and putting it back
together.
I think that's the form ofintelligence.
But like, um, what were yousaying before?
I've forgotten.
Uh, it's like reading a book.
(22:58):
Like there's some people thatwill just memorize and it's like
that.
It's like it's in there's a lotof autistic people who have a
photographic memory.
And like autism is a spectrumas well as any neurodivergence.
So it's like there's highlyfunctional and there's highly
dysfunctional and there'scertain levels of autism.
But like not many people, Ithink, could read a book and
(23:20):
then just memorize it orunderstand it fully after.
Like potentially, if you read abook and then just memorise it
or understand it fully after.
Like, potentially, if you reada page and then wrote notes and
then keep reading a page andwriting notes.
Like there's differentprocesses and methodologies
people use.
But yeah, that's a very likevague answer that person gave
(23:42):
because, like you can't just saythat like I know.
Well, that's a very like vagueanswer that person gave because
like you can't just say thatlike I know.
Will (23:46):
Well, that was the thing.
I was so puzzled and I wasready no, but that was the other
thing.
Then someone else said, oh, canI second that?
And they're like yeah, I secondthat.
And like I was ready to justturn around and go hey, look, by
the way, I will never.
I was ready to just turn aroundand go hey, look, by the way, I
will never.
I was about to shut them down,but the whole event stopped at
(24:09):
that point.
So I didn't get to actuallylike chime in my two cents,
which was like ah, Like.
Aaron (24:15):
Some people say that reading a book upside down helps
you memorise things, but it'slike is that an actual fact or
it's like?
And if research does suggestthat it's like, what was their
like?
Population of people within thestudy?
Were they new, typical?
Were they like?
Who were the people in thispodcast that you were speaking
(24:36):
with Like?
Were they new or typical?
Were they like?
Highly like photographicautistic people?
Will (24:41):
It's like you can't just generalise things.
It's like every have you everread a book upside down before?
Aaron (24:47):
I have tried.
It didn't last me that longbecause I was just like I, I
just I couldn't pay attention,like I was just.
You know, when you look upsidedown and everything just looks
funny and you just kind of tryto make sense of things, I was
looking at that and it was justlike yeah, actually just this.
Will (25:05):
This is a bit off topic.
Have you ever, like, I don'tknow, laid on a bed and your
mate or something's been sittingthere and then you look at
their, like the top of theirchin and they look like a person
.
Have you ever seen like that?
Aaron (25:19):
Those little like hand kind of people.
Will (25:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anyway, man, let's move on withthe podcast, um, but no, no, no
.
It is interesting.
I think that, like um,sometimes the wrong
information's getting out thereand there, or there may be some
information that's coming out,but it's not a one-size-fits-all
(25:43):
Sort of that's why universaldesign is probably such an
important thing.
So you know, with that beingsaid, oh, hang on, I think I
skipped one there.
So why accommodations alonearen't enough?
Why do you think that's thecase?
Accommodations alone aren'tenough?
Why do you?
Aaron (26:04):
think that's the case.
I said this the other day andsomeone kind of pulled me up on
it.
I think, like we have equitablelearning services at UNSW and
they're great.
They give us accommodations,they like advocate on our behalf
, like they Can.
I ask what type ofaccommodations they give you out
of curiosity uh, it varies from, uh, everybody's specific needs
(26:28):
, like, for example, uh, anotheraccommodation I have besides
like an hour for every hour.
For an hour, some people getlike 15 minutes for every hour
or like 30 minutes.
It depends how much you ask for, how much, like your doctor
like says in the letter thatyou've got to give them because,
like every diagnosis you getlike then can determine the
(26:50):
accommodation you get as well.
So it's like you have to kind ofstate your diagnosis and then
state the accommodation you need.
But this is a thing that grindsmy gears.
I'm not going to swear, becauseI could get very frustrated.
It's like students, at anylevel, are coming out of fresh
out of high school uh, ifthey're studying again for the
(27:13):
third or fourth time, if they'recoming into university as a
mature age student like myself,it's like you're expected to
know what you need before youneed it and it's like how can
you know what you're going toneed before you?
It's like how can you know whatyou're going to need before you
even start one course, letalone three, if you're studying
at unsw, which were trimesters,and it's like each course is
different, let alone likestudying three courses at the
(27:35):
same time.
And then, like each time you goup a year, it's like things are
going to get more complex andit's like every time you need a
new accommodation, you need anew letter or a new diagnosis or
something which costs peoplemoney.
Will (27:49):
So it's like there's so many barriers to and so you
can't get these accommodationswithout those letters.
Is that correct?
Aaron (27:59):
you can't.
They're trying to find ways oflike helping students in the
interim, like because lettersmay take time.
So if they state that, likeI've spoken to my GP, I'm
getting psychiatrists kind of toconfirm these things, I'll have
something in like three months.
They might give you certainaccommodations to kind of help
until you get it.
But majority of the time, to myunderstanding, you need like
(28:23):
professional, professional andis that all universities that
you know of?
Out of curiosity, I'm prettysure, um.
Will (28:31):
I don't know a university that wouldn't do it without one
um because, like man, I got likediagnosed with dyslexia when I
was like 10.
I'm like 42 now.
Be stuffed if I knew where thebloody diagnosis was or like
would your gp?
Your gp can do this as well,which is great yeah, yeah, I
could speak to them, but like,they would have it, but they
(28:54):
wouldn't have a clue that I'velike, I have told them, but like
, do you know what I mean?
Like they, I don't know, itjust seems weird.
Aaron (29:03):
It's just, you're just getting a note like another
accommodation I have is likelike I I've managed kitchens,
I've managed research projects,uh.
But like in a lab where there'sso many things going on at once
and there's like, say, likeeight lab demonstrators with
(29:24):
like each group of like 12students per like eight lab
demonstrators, there's likeeight different people speaking
at one time and like there's alot going on.
So like I used to have like alab assistant kind of sit next
to me and like pay attention andpick up on things that I kind
of missed, because let's saylike, if you use jargon, that
(29:46):
I've never heard this wordbefore, or like I'm trying to
understand what's been said,that could take me a good 10, 20
minutes and if my brain's notfocusing on that, what I need to
learn from my experiment, thatI've got to do my lab because I
study science, it's like I'vejust missed out on a whole heap
of shit that I need to know forthese experiments.
I used to have someone therelike listening for me and
(30:10):
helping me like regulate myemotions, because sometimes I
would get anxious as fuck.
Will (30:14):
And.
Aaron (30:14):
I need someone to like either tell me like let's go
outside and go for a walk andthen bring me back in, but it's
like I need my hand held in alab environment.
Yeah, like I can manageprojects and stuff, it's like,
but you put me in thisenvironment, which I'm not used
to, and it's like three to fourhours long and you get like
potentially a 10 minute break.
(30:35):
It's like it's it's a lot toput on a student, especially if
they've got like sensoryoverload, because there's bright
lights, things going on, somany different types of
accommodations students can get,but a lot of students don't
know what they can get, so theydon't know what to ask for.
And I think that this is anissue, and I'm a part of this
(30:55):
Students with DisabilitiesLeadership Collective and we're
trying to kind of collate whatpolicies each university has and
then I guess what?
Like we're going to try tostandardize a list of like
comprehensive accommodationsthat students may be able to ask
for, so students know like whatthey may be able to get before
(31:16):
they enter the system, becauseit's like it's it's such a
hassle trying to get a newaccommodation added in if you're
like halfway through yourcourse and you've got like no
time on your hands whatsoeverbecause, like I can't speak for
neurotypical students, butstudents that I do know like
(31:36):
they're behind all the time.
But it's like if you'reneurodivergent, you're behind a
lot of the time and you'realways catching up, so there's
always something you need to dobecause you'll be handing
assessments in late.
For example, you'll have likethree assessments or something
in one week.
It's like it never ends andit's just yeah, it's a very
clunky system and a verystressful system to put yourself
(31:57):
in um yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy crazy.
Will (32:03):
So you know talking about that.
Um, so, universal design inaction what?
What would be some practicalsteps for educators?
So you've just spoken about howit is quite clunky.
What would probably make thatbetter or easier, do you think?
Aaron (32:21):
so accommodations kind of I hate saying this it's kind of
like a band-aid approach.
It's like the foundationsaren't kind of accessible or
inclusive.
So let's just put anaccommodation in to kind of
mitigate these things, becauseacademics aren't say uh
providing uh transcripts forlectures or like providing uh
different formats forassessments to be in.
Will (32:46):
Why aren't they providing transcripts or like recordings
of their sessions?
Aaron (32:51):
Great question.
Some academics do.
Some academics don't know thatit's a feature on the technology
software that they're usingwhich is just like.
It baffles me.
But, yes, like these are thingsthat we're trying to get
standardized.
And this is where UniversalDesign for Learning comes in
because, like within ourinclusive education toolkit I
(33:14):
spoke about, which we've createdfrom a diversified project,
it's like we use UDL UniversalDesign for Learning as our main
framework to structureeverything that we're kind of
giving that educators to kind ofunderstand how to like move
forward in a more inclusivemanner.
And if say, for example, likestudents, there's like a thing
(33:35):
called the hidden curriculum,it's like learning how to learn
and there's so many thingsoutside of learning that you
need to understand and navigateas well as learning your
coursework.
And like students don't knowhow they learn best or what
their like set three kind ofneeds are, or like what their
learning style is or what theirprocessing styles are or what
their communication styles are.
(33:56):
So it's like if the student'sexpected to give a verbal
presentation in front of a wholegroup of students and they're
anxious, or they have dyslexiaand like an ADHD, potentially
like myself, it's like I canthink, but when I communicate,
it doesn't come out the same andit's like I've got anxiety
blocking my neural pathwaysgetting in the way of, like my
(34:20):
execution for communicating.
It's like that's an issue forme, in the way of, like my
execution for communicating.
It's like that's an issue forme.
So, instead of getting studentsto like gain those skill,
confidence, skills of presentingin a classroom, why don't you
just let them do a recording ofthemselves doing it and their
own comforts?
Like it's just changing thebeing more flexible in terms of
like, uh, you provide students,I guess, yeah, more flexible
(34:44):
learning environments or moreflexible like assessment types.
A universal design for learningkind of encompasses like three
different things.
So the first one, like ismultiple means of representation
, so like presenting informationin different ways, like I said
before, like text, audio, videoor like tactile formats, um.
(35:05):
The second one is about likemultiple means of action and
expression, um, so like allowingstudents to show what they've
learned in ways that work bestfor them, such as like essays,
videos, presentations or evenart, which kind of ties into the
first, uh, yeah.
And the third one's likemultiple means of engagement, so
it's like creating options forstudents to stay motivated and
(35:27):
connected, whether that'sthrough collaborative activities
, individual projects or likeflexible pacing.
So, for example, it's like whenI'm speaking to someone,
majority of the time it's kindof polite to look in someone's
eyes when you're speaking tothem, like right now, like I'm
looking here, but if I need toprocess something, I can't look
(35:49):
into somebody's eyes because Ineed to think about what I'm
saying and I can't do that.
If I'm looking in someone's eyes, then you apply that to a
classroom setting and it's likewell for students kind of
dawdling or doodling and likejust drawing whilst they're
listening and the academics likewhy aren't you paying attention
?
It's like I am paying attentionbut I need to kind of channel my
adhd energy.
(36:09):
My energy is always moving, soit's either going to be moving
in my head and I'm going to beanxious, or like overthinking or
not be able to process things.
Or I can process things whilstmy hands moving, or I'm chewing
gum, for example, but like youknow a lot of gum in a lab and
like with adhd and I can'tgeneralize this because not
(36:29):
everybody's the same, but it'slike we need people fidget I
move.
I've got a swizzle chair rightnow.
I'm like my body's moving butI'm trying to keep my like torso
still.
So I'm like not being kind ofrude to people because you're
supposed to kind of stand upstraight and stay still and all
these things when youcommunicate stuff and it's like
that's not how everybodyfunctions and it's just like
(36:51):
there's so many societal kind ofconstructs and ways of doing
things that are formal and justnot how everybody works and it's
just like things need to changeand things need to be more
adaptable and flexible and would.
Will (37:08):
Would you sort of find that like?
I think the biggest thing thatI always talk about is that a
lot of these changes wouldactually be quite simple changes
.
Would you say that as well?
Aaron (37:20):
100 like, say, for example, like providing students
lecture recordings ahead oftime, like some courses are
fully online, so it's like youjust get lecture recordings and
they're not live, uh.
But in some cases it's like youdon't get access to lecture
recordings, like a week beforeor two weeks before.
(37:40):
Like imagine if you uh weretrying to get ahead of your
course two weeks before youstarted the course, but you
don't have access to the lecturerecordings.
Will (37:49):
So you can't fully understand, like what you're
getting yourself into, becauseit's all new information, hey,
but at least if you're gettingaccess to it early, you're like,
ah, now I know I rememberlistening to that and I've got
chronic fatigue andBS.
Aaron (38:04):
So it's like every day I wake up is a whole, completely
new day to me.
I might have energy, I mightfeel sick, I might have brain
fog.
It's like I might feel greatand if I feel great I'm going to
do as much as I can in thattime because I don't know what
tomorrow is going to bring.
So it's like if I can't preparemyself because the academic or
the educator hasn't given meaccess to things before in, like
(38:28):
I need them, like say, twoweeks before example, that might
be pushing it for someacademics, but if you've got
lecture recordings that are ayear old, you can give students
access to that.
And I know some academics whodo give access to those last
year recordings but they putunder red under the recording.
It's like disclaimer, this islast year's recording.
I can't say verbatim that thisis all going to be the same
(38:50):
information, but it'll give youa heads up of what may be in the
course.
So it's like I will give youaccess to a lecture recording or
the slides in real time onceI've got them, but like I don't
have them right now.
This is the best that give youthat can help students so much,
and it's just like there's somany things like sorry, have you
(39:12):
seen?
Will (39:13):
have you seen that new I think google created it where
you can put like all your umstudy notes, for example, into
this app and then it turns itinto a podcast.
Aaron (39:26):
I haven't seen the podcast thing.
Ai is off its head right now.
Will (39:34):
Yeah, totally.
Aaron (39:36):
It's like I say Chachapiti is like my second
brain.
I honestly like I don't knowhow I functioned at university
in life without it beforehand.
So it's just like I yeah, it'sinsane I use it for everything.
Um, it's such a game changer,like I went to a microsoft
(39:57):
hackathon like maybe two weeksago, and one of the people from
the accessibility team they werelike you can scan in.
I can't remember what meetingit was.
It might be Zoom, it might beTeams, whatever.
Like a QR code that'll give youlike the closed captions in the
language that is your firstlanguage.
Oh, wow that's pretty cool andI'm just like, holy fucking shit
(40:19):
, this is so cool and this is solike needed because there's a
lot of international studentswho don't have english as their
first language and they come to,they should have a basis, basic
knowledge of englishunderstanding.
A lot of students do, somedon't, and if a student a
(40:40):
master's student, for example,in an art design course I'm
using this as a like a real lifeexample it's like master
students taking an art anddesign course give an assessment
brief, they don't know how tounderstand it, so they're not
getting the marks they wantbecause they don't understand
what's being asked of them.
Let's say, like you've got thatqr code that could translate
(41:00):
things for them, or you've gotlike an assessment brief which
you like.
Just upload the file if you'vegot chat gpt premium and then
just say translate this intoMandarin, translate this into
Cantonese, whatever languagethey speak.
It's like that's just accessibleeducation totally a form of UDL
(41:23):
, I'd say, because if anacademic can show a student like
that's what they can do, to usethis and change this into their
format, like that's givingstudents options which would
then like kind of lessen theaccommodations the student may
need.
It's not going to get rid ofthem, but it's definitely going
to help the system and it'sgoing to help the educator, but
it's yeah, it blows my mind likehow the education system was
(41:48):
before and it does give me hopebecause things are changing and
it's these conversations we'rehaving now that are going to
make a difference and helpstudents advocate for themselves
more and help academics who arepotentially listening to like
show more interested uh,interest in like udl and like
invest in learning andunderstanding that students need
(42:09):
different formats and differentlike ways of, because do you
know what I've I was talking tosomeone especially about with
like so like, especially withthe academics is that like the
harder.
Will (42:23):
The big problem with them is is that they don't have
teaching backgrounds.
They come from like, whateverit is, and these are some of the
problems that we're facingbecause they don't have that
teaching experience.
Aaron (42:37):
Like.
So within academia you've gotlike I think usually it's 60-40.
You might be like like 60researcher, 40 academic, or you
might be like 60 academic, 40research, or you might be 80
academic, 20 research, or youmight be full academic or full
research.
(42:58):
It's like there's so manyvariations of, like the type of
academic you have.
And if you're more educationfocused, you're going to have
that basic understanding.
Hopefully you're going to havethat basic understanding.
If you're more educationfocused, you're going to have
that basic understanding.
Hopefully you're going to havethat basic understanding.
If you're more research focused,like you don't have all that.
You didn't study education as abackground.
Or you may take a few coursesto get through your phd to
(43:21):
become a professor or somethinglike that or a lecturer, but
it's like you don't have thosefoundational skills some
universities have.
Like I think we've got thefault program which teaches
academics, kind of basic,accessible and inclusive kind of
ways of teaching.
Um, it needs to be probablymandatory.
(43:41):
But then I kind of second guessmyself when I say that, because
something that's mandatory it'slike it's just going to go in
one ear and out the other.
If it's like you're told theyhave to do this and they're not
interested.
So it's like oh, I'm going tosay something before.
What were we speaking about?
Will (44:03):
We were talking about the academics in one ear, out the
other.
It shouldn't be mandatory.
Aaron (44:08):
Another.
So I'm actually aneurodiversity consultant for my
school, which is the School of,like, Biotechnology and
Biotechnological andBiomolecular Sciences.
My major's Molecular Biology,and within my school of BABS I'm
going to call it for short I'ma neurodiversity consultant.
(44:30):
So I'm auditing a course interms of its accessibility and
we have, like, say, 24 differentlectures within one course,
which is 10 weeks, and thenyou've got like eight different
lecturers giving those lecturesand each lecture is structured
differently.
The layout's different.
There should be standard thingswhich UDL kind of emphasises,
(44:51):
so like, say, each lectureshould have a set of lecture
slides, should have learningoutcomes, so a student knows,
like, what they should befocusing on and those learning
outcomes should be linked to thelearning like slides.
Will (45:06):
But that's so.
It's sort of like a trainingplan, like a teaching plan,
correct.
So you know you'll be startingwith this.
It then goes into this.
It then goes into this, correct?
Aaron (45:18):
What I'm doing is I'm mainly focusing on, like, the
guest lecturers who come in andmajority of the time they're not
getting paid, they're experts,industry, they have no education
, potentially I can't speak forall of them even no education
experience or like minimaleducation experience.
So some of them, for example,have like 90 slides for an hour
(45:41):
where, like I'd say, thestandard would be, standard
would be 30 or 40 would be ideal, because that's like two
minutes on each slide.
If you've got 90 slides dividedby, it'll be like 50 or 55
minutes, because you start alecture at like five past, not
on the dot.
So it's like, say, 55 minutes,like 90 divided by 55, that's
(46:06):
like less than a minute of slide.
And it's like, if you've got awhole slide of information,
that's just text.
It's like Information overload.
I've seen a slide that'sliterally a full black
background.
It's like full of text.
There's text at the startthat's like highlighted in red,
(46:29):
the second one's highlighted inyellow and the second one's
highlighted in purple, and I'mjust like if a student didn't
have the lecture, kind ofspeaking towards this, how do
they know where to start andwhat's the important information
?
because everything is it's likethat's not accessible and that's
very overwhelming for anystudent, let alone a
neurodivergent one.
So it's like that's notaccessible and that's very
overwhelming for any student,let alone a neurodivergent one.
So it's like my.
(46:50):
What I'm trying to do is createlike a or, within the limited
time that I've been given forthis uh role, it's like create
like a set of must haveguidelines that guest lecturers
or like non-education focusedacademics can use, to say like I
should have xyz in this orderpotentially, if it's not on the
(47:11):
same order, at least you've gotthem in any way you want.
But like and I'm trying tocreate like a, an empty shell of
like have a title slide, havethis slide, have that.
So I'll have like a set ofwritten guidelines and then I'll
have like an empty shell which,like they should know that like
you've got the visual versionand then you've got like the
written version of like astandard thing that you should
(47:33):
have, because universities don'thave this.
Some might, we might have itwithin UNSW, but within our
school of Babs we don't havethat.
And like we're trying to leadthe way in accessibility, don't
have that, and like we're tryingto lead the way in the
accessibility way.
So it's like it's these thingsthat if you're using universal
(47:54):
to learn, for learning more, andacademics had more of an
understanding and it wasembedded in the university and
accessibility and inclusion werethe foundations of everything
that happens in a university,which it it should, and I
strongly stand by that.
It's like things would be somuch different.
Will (48:14):
Yeah, totally, totally.
Actually, that actually workswell into the next question here
.
So future-proofing education,so the role of UDL in emerging
learning environments.
So I think that rolls inperfectly.
So you know, if we havestandards or procedures in place
, it should make it easier foreveryone, correct?
Aaron (48:38):
It should.
I think this is where AI comesback into the picture, because I
think things like ChatterBT aregame changers, as I said before
, because if you're in a lectureand you can't ask your lecturer
a question because there's notime, or there's questions at
(49:00):
the end, or you've got anxietyand you can't ask the question
because you literally can't,you've got anxiety.
It's debilitating you.
You don't have the confidenceto either speak it out aloud,
which 99 of the students don'thave their cameras on, and they
don't speak, they just theircameras off.
They may put questions in thechat.
It's like if a student doesn'thave the confidence even to put
a question in the chat, it'slike, uh, like that's an issue,
(49:24):
and I think so sorry.
Will (49:25):
So a majority of the lectures are all done online
these days.
Is that correct?
Aaron (49:30):
lectures predominantly yes, it varies from university
to university like tutorials,lectures might be recorded or
they might be live recorded orin person.
Labs within my school havethey're in person and you can't
(49:54):
do them online.
They are trying to look at likeways of having like AI or
virtual VR simulation kind ofthings for labs to pass, because
you have to do certainexperiments and stuff and learn
certain techniques and stufflike that.
But, um, coming back to ai,it's like you've got a 24 7
(50:14):
real-time feedback tutor at yourfingertips, like that, when
you've got ai in your pocket, inyour on your mobile, on your
mac, on your pc, whatever.
And you've got like personalizedlearning, because let's say, if
an academic uses jargon, youcan literally and uh, some
(50:34):
universities don't like you'redoing this, um, but you can
screenshot a lecture slide, forexample, and then put that in
there and say simplify this forme, use an analogy to make this
more simpler for me tounderstand.
Because let's say, if you'venever done a biology course
before and you have no biologyfoundation, it's like you need a
(50:57):
foundation to learn and buildfrom.
So if you can use an analogy,that's in a non-biological terms
and then you can translate thatto a biological terms and then
you can start the foundation.
You're going to learn andunderstand things better.
But if the lecture is notspeaking in the language that
you understand like biologyjargon, for example, and each
(51:19):
science kind of has differentjargon, different words for the
same thing, which, which is soconfusing, and it's like if AI
can translate that or break itdown, simplify it, give you like
flashcards, it can doeverything you need it to.
I think now.
Will (51:37):
But Uni's frowned against that.
Aaron (51:39):
They for note-taking and stuff.
I think it's fine For like,adding in a lecture slide to a
thing like chat tpt.
They don't like because of theip issues, because it's okay,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I see solike they're really strict on
that stuff.
Um, we do have access tomicrosoft co-pilot, the basic
(52:01):
version at usw, which is like aclosed system, so like once you
ask you the question, it ordersto because it's not saved, which
is saving the ip things.
Um, but like you can still say,like you could put like your
own made lecture note documentinto chattopiti and say I need
(52:26):
to create a set of 30 exam styleadvanced multiple choice
questions for me to pre-practicemy exam, like as practice
questions for my notes.
Make sure you hit like certainpoints.
Give me a rationale behind whythe answer is the answer and
then why the other choicesyou've given me aren't right, so
(52:47):
I can learn as much as I canbefore I take this exam.
You don't get that in from anacademic like it's okay, yeah
students can do to use ai totheir advantage create a set of
questions, create flashcardshave you found that helpful for
you?
100 like I, if, even if I've gotquestions that I've generated
(53:09):
myself, I'm like what questionshave I missed here that may be
asked in a final exam?
And majority of the time itpicks up something that you're
like I actually didn't thinkabout that and it's just like
it's just, it's just opening upthe never-ending possibilities
(53:29):
of like what type of questioncould be asked in an exam.
Because, like, majority of thetime it's something that's so
like niche from what's been saidor it's like something little
has been said and they've goneon a tangent that's not kind of
course related or in thematerial, but like they're kind
of they've integrated it somehowand that question just throws
students off.
But if AI can give them thatlike foresight or that insight
(53:53):
into like what potentially mightbe asked, it's like it's so
valuable.
Will (53:58):
Yeah, yeah, that's crazy man, that's crazy.
But we are getting close to theend now, so building inclusive
universities.
What's the intersection ofpolicy, policy practice and
culture?
Aaron (54:12):
as I said before, like policies, universities, any
education system, needs to have.
I find, like I feel verystrongly that like accessibility
and inclusion need to be likethe underpinning of everything
that's been done past and future.
Like we have AI projects goingat the moment at UNSW that like
(54:37):
like I sit in there like demokind of things, where they're
like showcasing it for the firsttime, their beta versions, and
I'm like have you looked at theaccessibility aspects of any of
this?
And they're like they're noteven thinking about it.
I'm just like, as anaccessibility consultant or like
specialist, I'd say, because Iknow a lot about it.
It's like, why haven't youlooked at this yet?
(54:57):
It's like, just because you'relike centralising resources from
a university into one space,it's like how do you know that
the student knows how to gothrough that process in the
first place?
Like, like, how do you knowthat a student knows how to go
through that process in thefirst place?
Like, how do you know thatprocess is accessible to the
student?
Just because you're guidingthem there doesn't mean they're
not going to know how to use it.
It's like accessibility andinclusion needs to be the
foundation of everything that'sbeen done and is that's being
(55:20):
done and is doing has been donelike is happening currently.
Because when that is is it'slike universities are always
going on about uh, students,well-being and belonging, but
it's like how can you belong ifan environment isn't inclusive
to your identity and how youprocess and navigate and
(55:43):
function in life, and how canyou feel like you belong if
things aren't accessible to youin the first place?
It's like accessibility andinclusion when they're done
right and udl is a very goodstarting point it's like they
can create strong foundationsthat then funnel into these
well-being and belonging thingsthat the universities really
prioritize and they put a lot ofmoney for.
(56:04):
But I don't think they're doingthem well enough, because the
accessibility and inclusion isthe, it's the underpinning, and
they're not at that.
They're just looking at itthrough a neurotypical, more
professional lens and it's likewell, you need students a part
of this.
You need them, the lower sesstudents, you need these
(56:26):
disability students.
You need the students who arereally struggling and who really
don't have that sense ofbelonging yet at university
because they don't know how toaccess things, for example.
You need them a part of theconversation.
So I think you need livedexperience and you need
accessibility and inclusion asthe foundations of things.
Will (56:43):
Yeah.
Aaron (56:44):
In any part of society.
I think really, yeah, I'm astrong advocate for that.
Will (56:50):
No, no, yeah, yeah, no, no , no, that's good, that's good,
that's good and it's true.
I think that you know.
So I go to a lot of like techpitch nights and stuff like that
and people are talking.
I tell you what man man, itfeels like everyone's trying to
(57:10):
start a hr program, likeeveryone I know is trying to
build a hr program.
Right, and a lot of the timethey're not even thinking about,
like you know, accessibilityand all of that.
It's like, oh you know, ourprogram will do of that.
It's like, oh, you know, ourprogram will do this, and if it
shows this, that means that theperson's not performing.
(57:33):
And I'm like well, hang on,maybe that means that the
person's struggling withsomething.
Have you looked at it from thatperspective before?
You know so little things likethat there, but pretty crazy
stuff.
But look, aaron, thank you somuch for coming on today.
We've pretty much gotten to theend there today.
(57:53):
You know, if someone wants toconnect with you and the work
that you're doing, what's thebest place to check you out at.
Aaron (58:01):
As I said before, my name's Aaron St James.
I think it was on the screenbefore, so that's like oh yeah
it is A-A-R.
Will (58:17):
Hang on, I'll put it onto the um.
I'll put it um up on the umscreen here.
Hang on, mate, uh, paste, andthen I'll add it.
There we go.
Do you want to spell it out forthe people listening?
Aaron (58:26):
yep.
So, uh, double a r o n s a I nt hyphen j m e s.
So you can find me on linkedin.
You can find me on social media, uh, instagram and facebook.
Um, I've also got a link treebecause I provide, like,
consultancy services and yeah,uh, if you can't find me, reach
(58:47):
out to will, and we'll just passon my details yeah, no, that's
no problem like, yeah, I've gota lot on my plate, but if you've
got any questions or you needany advice, definitely just hit
me up, because I'm so passionateabout changing education,
higher education in particular,and making systems more
(59:08):
functional and more accessiblefor everyone, because when you
use UDL, it's like it caters foreveryone, not the majority, and
it's like that's how societyand things should be.
Will (59:17):
So, yeah, Cool, cool, cool , Awesome man.
Well, look, thanks so much forcoming on Awesome chat there.
Aaron (59:25):
Like always, you got much planned for over the Christmas
period mate, my family's comingfrom Tassie actually, so I'm
going to have a bit of time offand spend it with them, so
that's going to be really nice.
Will (59:35):
Oh well, will you still be in Sydney?
Aaron (59:37):
Yeah, I'll still be in Sydney.
Will (59:39):
Oh, nice man, so you won't be Whereabouts, do you live
again?
Aaron (59:45):
St Peter's.
Will (59:46):
St Peter's, so you won't be hanging around St Peter's.
Aaron (59:51):
I'm actually going to be on the Central Coast, but I will
be oh you're going up there.
Yeah, my sister's friends livethere, so we're going to be
staying at their place andprobably at the beach.
Hopefully it's a hot summerlike last year, was it?
I think it was hot last year, Idon't know what are you?
Will (01:00:10):
doing.
Yeah, I think it was oh man, oh, nothing much on Christmas, but
I think my sister and Lauren, anew boyfriend from Ireland, are
coming down to Sydney for a fewdays.
So I was going to say if youwere free we would have come and
caught up with you, but I thinkyou might be a bit busy, my
friend well, hit me up anywayand I'll see if I can make some
(01:00:33):
time, because I'd love to yeahtotally, man, totally awesome,
man, awesome.
But thank, look, thank you somuch for coming on today.
It's always a pleasure whenwe're chatting, definitely a
topic that I want to talk moreabout in the future.
So I say, this is only thebeginning, but look for all of
our listeners who alreadyhaven't done so, please
(01:00:54):
subscribe, like and follow toall of our social media pages.
My name's Will, and this isNeuroDivergent Mates.
Till next time, you.
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Neurodivergent Mates.
I'm your host Will Wheeler,join with my main man, aaron St
(00:30):
James.
What's going on, brother?
Aaron (00:34):
Not much.
I'm pretty keen to dig intosome juicy topics.
Will (00:38):
Some juicy topics.
We were just talking about yougetting ready to move shortly,
my man.
Aaron (00:43):
Yes, never an exciting thing or something to look
forward to, but it's got to bedone.
Will (00:50):
so, yeah, yeah, I gotta admit, moving sucks, man.
I saw someone moving into likethe apartment.
Actually we got, um, our, ourrent had been put up and, like I
always get worried, I'm like,oh my god, they yeah, yeah, but
they only put it up by $10.
So I was like you know what Imean?
That's not too bad when it'slike $250, that's when it's like
(01:12):
holy crap, man, that's when youstart to freak out.
But no, all cool, all cool.
Well, I wish you the best ofluck with your move.
Yeah, thank you, I'm going toneed all the luck I can get.
Did you want to plug that?
Aaron (01:32):
you might have some furniture up for grab shortly.
I've gotten rid of the stuffthat I don't need to.
Yeah, I'm good.
Will (01:37):
Okay, so you're good.
All right, I'm just trying tohelp out where I can you know,
but I tell you what right.
We've got a really cool topicthat we're going to be covering
today.
So accommodations versusuniversal design for learning.
So really cool topic there.
But before we do get stuck inanything, I might just do a
(01:58):
little bit of housekeeping foranyone who hasn't already done
so.
So if you haven't already doneso, please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
We're available on TikTok,facebook, instagram X, twitch,
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Wherever you listen to yourpodcast, please check us out,
(02:20):
like us, subscribe to us, rateus, write comments to do or to
help us to be able to, you know,work in with that algorithm
there.
Now just a big shout out toNeurodiversity Academy, our
sponsor.
We're doing some awesome stuffover at Neurodiversity Academy,
so if you haven't alreadychecked out what we're doing,
(02:40):
please go toneurodiversityacademycom Also
too.
Warning, some discussions may betriggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call
emergency services.
We are not doctors.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and or strategies.
Also, if you've got anyquestions during the podcast
(03:02):
today.
Please chuck them in thecomments section of wherever
you're watching this live.
So if you're watching thisthrough Facebook Live or you're
watching it through LinkedInLive, youtube Live, whichever
one you're watching it on,please feel free to ask us some
questions and if it's while weare live, we will try to answer
(03:23):
them as best as we can.
Aaron, you ready my man.
Aaron (03:27):
I am ready to rumble.
Will (03:29):
Awesome, all right, cool.
So we might just start off witha pretty basic one today.
So, luke, share us a little bitabout yourself.
I obviously know a lot aboutyou, but share with our
listeners a little bit about whoyou are.
Aaron (03:45):
Hey everyone.
So my name is Aaron St James.
A little bit about me to setthe scene.
So I'm a mature age student.
I'm also queer.
I'm neurodivergent, so I've gotADHD and dyslexia potential,
some autistic symptoms, but notenough to get fully diagnosed
because I'm quite good atcommunicating and I'm quite an
(04:07):
extrovert at times.
So my psychiatrist is like thatdoes not, uh, you don't fit the
mold for that, so we'll seelater on.
I also have a physicaldisability, um, and I want to
get into like what disability isand like what it encompasses,
because I think it's just morethan the physical aspects.
(04:28):
Like you can't say my physicaldisability because I have, like
a back injury and I have chronicpain.
So, yeah, I want to kind ofelaborate more on like what
disability is and how it's kindof changed.
All the perception or theunderstanding of disability has
changed over time as peoplebecome more aware that, like
(04:50):
visible disabilities are a formof disability too and we have to
recognize that.
Like I have chronic healthconditions such as chronic
fatigue, fibromyalgia andchronic pain, which
unfortunately comes from, Iguess, the injury that I had and
the compounding stress of beinga mature-aged student, starting
(05:13):
uni at 30 after being a cheffor over 10 years.
So yeah, that's a little bitabout myself.
Will (05:19):
I didn't know you were a chef man.
Whereabouts were you a chef?
Aaron (05:23):
I've been a chef for a few places.
I used to do corporate cateringin uh brangaroo.
I used to work for a uhcatering company which we did uh
catering on, like super yachtsuh worked for at venues like
gucci and ferrari and stuff.
It was pretty sick.
That last role is where I hadmy back, so I'm not spewing, man
(05:46):
spewing.
Will (05:47):
I heard that like um in the hospitality sector.
I was only thinking about theother day, you know everyone
right why is that?
How do you just know everyone?
It seems like everyone I knowwho works in hospitality knows
everyone.
Aaron (06:06):
It's like living in like a country town where, like
everybody just knows everybody'sbusiness, I guess, because
there's like circuits.
There's like the cateringcircuit, there's like the
restaurant circuit, there's likejust different circuits and I
guess there's like hiringcompanies and stuff.
So like you just kind of Idon't know.
(06:28):
I used to work at Fox Studiostoo, which was pretty exciting
because I think Chris Hemsworthwas there once when they were
filming one of the Guardians ofthe Galaxy movies and like some
of those chefs like catered atlike the olympics and stuff like
that.
So it's just like, yeah, it'shard to explain, but there's, I
(06:52):
guess, yeah, little justcircuits and like pockets and
clicks that I have within thehospitality business and do you
know what I sort of learned aswell, especially when I was
doing a little bit ofhospitality when I was overseas
on your days off.
Will (07:09):
You know the hospitality people really know how to party.
Aaron (07:15):
What do you reckon?
Yes, it's full of alcohol andother substance abuse.
Will (07:29):
Anyway, we'll save that one for another podcast day.
Nice, nice, nice, nice.
But yeah, no, that'sinteresting, I never knew.
I didn't realize you were achef.
Aaron (07:36):
So you, you cook up some pretty awesome meals still, or
you're just like yeah I can cookand I do love cooking, but I
actually love like styling anddesigning food more than cooking
it itself.
I think my adhd likes, yeah,the design part and like it's
(07:57):
really like I love focusing andmaking things look really like
neat and tidy.
Uh, and because I've got ibsand other health conditions,
like I can't cook the food likeyeah, okay so it's like a dairy
kind of gluten kind of a lot ofthings.
(08:19):
So it's just like my cookingrange is kind of limited so it's
just kind of made cooking a bitboring fun anymore, but yeah
anyway.
Will (08:31):
Oh well, onto.
I suppose these things happenfor a reason and you're moving
on to bigger and better things.
Yeah, so you know, um, Iobviously first met you through,
you know your program, throughunswg.
About what was that?
Two years ago or three yearsago, I can't remember, 20 might
have been even longer than that2022 or 2023, I think.
(08:55):
Yes, two or three years ago, Ithink yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I think I was.
I think I was still living aride then, I can't remember.
But, um, you know, and Isuppose the big thing that we
first really started talkingabout was, um, uh,
neurodiversity what's happeningin, you know, vocational
education and in higher ed aswell.
(09:17):
So you know you're doing a fairbit of stuff there at unsw, um,
but look, tell us a little bitabout the work that you actually
are doing.
Aaron (09:26):
Okay, so I entered.
Well, actually, I was diagnosedat 27.
I'm currently 34.
So I started uni at 30 in 2020.
And in my second year, in mybest friend actually, she was a
co-founder of the DiversifiedProject, which I am the student
(09:49):
lead and actual research officerfor, and through that project
it all started off with myfriend.
She got like an assessmentbrief for one of her like design
assessments that she didn'tfind accessible, so she didn't
know how to like process itproperly.
But as a design student, ratherthan just saying that was an
(10:12):
issue, she was like, well, whydon't I just redesign it and
then see what the professorthinks?
And he fucking loved it.
And um, then, outside ofuniversity, my friend Josie and
I were just like, why do we feellike we're dumb and like we're
broken and that, like in ahigher education system we feel
(10:33):
like we're like not good enoughand when we're intelligent
people and we've got a lot goingfor us, but in this system we
just feel like we're not, it'snot meant for us.
So, with those conversationshappening and then, uh, josie
going to her professor, we endedup getting a seed funding grant
to start the diversifiedproject and initially that
(10:55):
started off um like more studentkind of side, where we took um
a whole bunch of neurodivergentstudents problems within their
courses and through a series ofworkshops which we used like
co-design and co-production.
So we were working withstudents, academics and staff.
Majority of them identified asneurodivergent, not all of them
(11:17):
but we created a set ofsolutions to the problems that
the students are facing in theircourses and then we created a
set of recommendations which weproposed to the university.
Then we got more funding and wewent into the second phase, uh,
which is we've created aninclusive education toolkit.
This is more academic facing.
(11:37):
So uh, now it's like we knowthe students, we know what some
of the students issues are like.
We can never find out all theissues, but a lot of them
overlap.
And now we've gone on to theacademic side of things where
it's like okay, well, we knowstudents are facing x issues
like let's try and solve them bycreating an inclusive education
(11:59):
toolkit, uh, which can helpacademics kind of understand
student experience.
And we've got five key themeswhich has like a it's quite
basic um, but it's quitecomprehensive at the same time
because it's like multi-facetedtoolkit.
But um, it's basic in the sensethat, like I work within
(12:22):
accessibility and inclusion, sofor for me, these should be
standard things and anyeducation-focused academic or
like teaching staff should bedoing some of the things that
we've got in our checklist.
Like some people might be like,this is just very basic and I'm
already doing these things, sowhy bother?
But like we want to get theacademics who don't know much
(12:44):
anything about neurodiversity,neuro inclusion or making, uh,
the education system moreaccessible, and we want to try
to bring them in as much aspossible, because they're the
ones that need, like we need tolike help change their mindsets,
raise awareness.
We we need to help educate them, we need to make accessibility
(13:06):
and inclusion accessible forthem so they understand the
importance of it.
If I go back on a little tangent, halfway through this I
actually met Will through we hadlike a side project called
Storybox, so the DiversifiedProject collaborated with
(13:27):
Storybox, which is run throughSM projects, esem projects, and
what we did within this Tangentproject was we took
neurodivergent people'sexperiences of how they
navigated the outside world or,yeah, the outside environment,
and we kind of digitalize theirstories into like artwork or
(13:52):
like, yeah, digital media andthen we showcase them on this
kind of cool digital cube whichis called the story box, which
was really interesting because,like, we're raising awareness
and providing an understandingof how neurodivergent people
navigate the world, but it's ina public space, which it's just.
(14:13):
It's quite powerful andimpactful when, like you're
watching this, likethree-dimensional cube, like
with four screens, kind ofsharing people's experiences in
a public setting, it's like itwas quite a cool project.
I even had my mom come alongbecause my mom's neurodivergent
and, um, yeah, it was prettycool stuff just to see that like
(14:37):
something like neurodiversityand neurodivergent people's
experiences was publiclydisplayed and people are slowly
becoming more aware, I guessalso through social media.
Like neurodiversity is trendingand there's a lot of like, oh
yeah, how to get diagnosed withADHD, how to manage symptoms,
(14:59):
like all this stuff.
But it's, yeah, this was justlike people's real raw emotions
and their experiences of thestruggles they face when
navigating, uh, challengingenvironments, and it's
definitely.
Will (15:14):
It's definitely interesting when you can see it
in pictures, correct, you know?
Aaron (15:19):
I think that was the thing that I took away from it
yeah, like seeing someone'sstory, like, whether it's like
just a series of pictures orlike a digital kind of animation
or just like someone's photowith words behind it, it's just
so powerful and there were somany cool stories and yeah just,
(15:41):
and yeah just.
It was really cool.
Will (15:43):
Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy, the good old days eh.
Aaron (15:46):
Yeah.
Will (15:49):
No, cool, cool, but look, getting into.
You know what we were coming totalk about today.
So, like we said before westarted, we're going to cover
like accommodations versusuniversal design of learning.
So what I did want to startwith was the first question here
proactive versus reactiverethinking inclusion in higher
(16:11):
education.
What's your thoughts basedaround that?
Now, you did say a little bit,like you know, we've got
toolkits and trying to get notnecessarily the people who
already know aboutneurodiversity, but the people
who don't know aboutneurodiversity is going to be
crucial in really creating thisenvironment, not just that where
(16:34):
you study, but you knowAustralia, wide, worldwide, all
of that type of stuff.
What is your thoughts on that?
Because obviously there stillis a real big gap, but you know
we are getting closer than whatwe were.
Aaron (16:48):
Things are definitely progressing.
I think inclusion should beproactive.
It definitely shouldn't bereactive.
I think in some cases it isreactive because there are, like
certain, like the DisabilityDiscrimination Act and other
education acts, that kind offorce education systems to kind
(17:08):
of meet certain compliancelevels which, to be honest, like
this is just my opinion, but Idon't think they're living up to
those standards and I thinkthat, like accommodations, they
can often fix barriers after thefact.
But UDL kind of anticipatesdiverse needs from the start,
(17:31):
which reduces the reliance onaccommodations.
So I always think of it as, likeaccommodations, they kind of
even the playing field somewhat,but it's like this is a
neurotypical level and this is aneurodivergent level and when
you get accommodation, juststill like not to the same level
(17:54):
, but like you are getting anaccommodation could be, for
example, like uh, as a thirdyear molecular biology student
coming from a low SES background, like I didn't finish year 12.
I didn't have much of apositive education experience
because of my dyslexia andundiagnosed ADHD, like I was
(18:16):
always told, like if you justapplied yourself you would be
really good at this, and it'sjust like.
It's like I can, like I can forevery hour of like an exam, for
example.
Like I get an extra hour andsome people might be like that's
like way too much, like why doyou get that?
But it's like I process things.
I'm very intelligent, but Iprocess things in a much slower
(18:39):
pace than your average person doyou find that hour actually
does work?
it does, like it doesn't get melike thds all the time, um, but
it does help me understandquestions.
For example, because I thinkmost of the time, like you,
spend more time deciphering whatthe question is than actually
(19:00):
like finding out the answer,which is stupid, because it's
like, if the question is notaccessible, like how do you
expect a student to be able tofunction efficiently in an
environment to get the bestgrades when, like, the answers
aren't actually the issue, it'sthe questions in the first place
?
Will (19:20):
So you're finding that the questions are a big problem for
you a lot of the time.
Is that a curiosity?
Aaron (19:26):
Not just me.
I know a lot of students whokind of just like they, spend a
lot of time deciphering thequestions rather than like oh
yeah, no, I totally agree andthat's why I sort of was like is
this something?
Will (19:39):
because I have heard it not only just say in university
but in vocational education aswell and I think from what the
feedback I've got from people isthat the people writing these
things sometimes they're noteven coming from the background
of, like, the topic that's thequestions are being written from
.
If that makes sense, you knowthey're not say if it's about I
(20:02):
don't know bloody um science,they're all they're not science
people who are writing thosequestions, if that makes sense I
can't speak towards thevocational sector, but I think
within higher education youwould have more like science
people focusing on sciencequestions.
Aaron (20:19):
Um, but I I heard this good explanation of like
dyslexia the other day.
It's like imagine you'relearning Chinese for the first
time but then, putting that intoperspective, you're answering
questions in an exam for thefirst time because you've never
seen these questions before,because every practice exam you
have, it's like the questionsare never the same and they're
(20:40):
never worded the same either.
Or if it's in a differentformat, like a drag and drop
thing or like a pull-down thingof like if it's displayed in
different ways that you haven'tseen yet.
Like I have chronic, likecomplex PTSD, so it's like
adjusting to something new thatI've never seen before.
I've got to it takes me a lotof time.
(21:01):
But then there's also mydyslexia and then my adhd, which
encompasses anxiety, to kind ofjust navigate this whole space.
But the thing that I was goingto get back to you before, it's
like imagine learning chinesefor the first time and then
getting an hour extra to learn.
It's like do you think thatwould help?
Will (21:19):
yeah, exactly, it wouldn't help me like it's like.
Aaron (21:24):
This is what neurodivergent people and
students have to face on a dailybasis not all of them, because
we all uh have differentexperiences and our brains work
in different ways, but likethat's an example of like a
dyslexic, how a dyslexic personfunctions sometimes so can I
just say right, I was in a panel, gee, a few months ago now, and
(21:47):
someone goes hey, is it truethat if you read a book more
than once, you will thenunderstand it perfectly?
Will (21:56):
and I'm sitting there thinking, oh man, I could read
the book a million times but Istill wouldn't get it.
And then one of the people onthe panel said yes, that's
correct.
And I'm like what, what thehell?
You know what I mean.
This is the type of informationpeople are putting out there.
Aaron (22:14):
There's some really intelligent people who are
memorization is in a form ofintelligence.
I gotta set that straight andthat's how education systems, I
guess, view intelligence.
Like the better your grades orthe better at learning you are,
like the better your grades willbe, and it's like, well, that's
not the case.
(22:34):
It like memorization is in aform of intelligence, critical
thinking and critical analysis,and like emotional intelligence
and like deconstructingsomething and putting it back
together.
I think that's the form ofintelligence.
But like, um, what were yousaying before?
I've forgotten.
Uh, it's like reading a book.
(22:58):
Like there's some people thatwill just memorize and it's like
that.
It's like it's in there's a lotof autistic people who have a
photographic memory.
And like autism is a spectrumas well as any neurodivergence.
So it's like there's highlyfunctional and there's highly
dysfunctional and there'scertain levels of autism.
But like not many people, Ithink, could read a book and
(23:20):
then just memorize it orunderstand it fully after.
Like potentially, if you read abook and then just memorise it
or understand it fully after.
Like, potentially, if you reada page and then wrote notes and
then keep reading a page andwriting notes.
Like there's differentprocesses and methodologies
people use.
But yeah, that's a very likevague answer that person gave
(23:42):
because, like you can't just saythat like I know.
Well, that's a very like vagueanswer that person gave because
like you can't just say thatlike I know.
Will (23:46):
Well, that was the thing.
I was so puzzled and I wasready no, but that was the other
thing.
Then someone else said, oh, canI second that?
And they're like yeah, I secondthat.
And like I was ready to justturn around and go hey, look, by
the way, I will never.
I was ready to just turn aroundand go hey, look, by the way, I
will never.
I was about to shut them down,but the whole event stopped at
(24:09):
that point.
So I didn't get to actuallylike chime in my two cents,
which was like ah, Like.
Aaron (24:15):
Some people say that reading a book upside down helps
you memorise things, but it'slike is that an actual fact or
it's like?
And if research does suggestthat it's like, what was their
like?
Population of people within thestudy?
Were they new, typical?
Were they like?
Who were the people in thispodcast that you were speaking
(24:36):
with Like?
Were they new or typical?
Were they like?
Highly like photographicautistic people?
Will (24:41):
It's like you can't just generalise things.
It's like every have you everread a book upside down before?
Aaron (24:47):
I have tried.
It didn't last me that longbecause I was just like I, I
just I couldn't pay attention,like I was just.
You know, when you look upsidedown and everything just looks
funny and you just kind of tryto make sense of things, I was
looking at that and it was justlike yeah, actually just this.
Will (25:05):
This is a bit off topic.
Have you ever, like, I don'tknow, laid on a bed and your
mate or something's been sittingthere and then you look at
their, like the top of theirchin and they look like a person
.
Have you ever seen like that?
Aaron (25:19):
Those little like hand kind of people.
Will (25:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anyway, man, let's move on withthe podcast, um, but no, no, no
.
It is interesting.
I think that, like um,sometimes the wrong
information's getting out thereand there, or there may be some
information that's coming out,but it's not a one-size-fits-all
(25:43):
Sort of that's why universaldesign is probably such an
important thing.
So you know, with that beingsaid, oh, hang on, I think I
skipped one there.
So why accommodations alonearen't enough?
Why do you think that's thecase?
Accommodations alone aren'tenough?
Why do you?
Aaron (26:04):
think that's the case.
I said this the other day andsomeone kind of pulled me up on
it.
I think, like we have equitablelearning services at UNSW and
they're great.
They give us accommodations,they like advocate on our behalf
, like they Can.
I ask what type ofaccommodations they give you out
of curiosity uh, it varies from, uh, everybody's specific needs
(26:28):
, like, for example, uh, anotheraccommodation I have besides
like an hour for every hour.
For an hour, some people getlike 15 minutes for every hour
or like 30 minutes.
It depends how much you ask for, how much, like your doctor
like says in the letter thatyou've got to give them because,
like every diagnosis you getlike then can determine the
(26:50):
accommodation you get as well.
So it's like you have to kind ofstate your diagnosis and then
state the accommodation you need.
But this is a thing that grindsmy gears.
I'm not going to swear, becauseI could get very frustrated.
It's like students, at anylevel, are coming out of fresh
out of high school uh, ifthey're studying again for the
(27:13):
third or fourth time, if they'recoming into university as a
mature age student like myself,it's like you're expected to
know what you need before youneed it and it's like how can
you know what you're going toneed before you?
It's like how can you know whatyou're going to need before you
even start one course, letalone three, if you're studying
at unsw, which were trimesters,and it's like each course is
different, let alone likestudying three courses at the
(27:35):
same time.
And then, like each time you goup a year, it's like things are
going to get more complex andit's like every time you need a
new accommodation, you need anew letter or a new diagnosis or
something which costs peoplemoney.
Will (27:49):
So it's like there's so many barriers to and so you
can't get these accommodationswithout those letters.
Is that correct?
Aaron (27:59):
you can't.
They're trying to find ways oflike helping students in the
interim, like because lettersmay take time.
So if they state that, likeI've spoken to my GP, I'm
getting psychiatrists kind of toconfirm these things, I'll have
something in like three months.
They might give you certainaccommodations to kind of help
until you get it.
But majority of the time, to myunderstanding, you need like
(28:23):
professional, professional andis that all universities that
you know of?
Out of curiosity, I'm prettysure, um.
Will (28:31):
I don't know a university that wouldn't do it without one
um because, like man, I got likediagnosed with dyslexia when I
was like 10.
I'm like 42 now.
Be stuffed if I knew where thebloody diagnosis was or like
would your gp?
Your gp can do this as well,which is great yeah, yeah, I
could speak to them, but like,they would have it, but they
(28:54):
wouldn't have a clue that I'velike, I have told them, but like
, do you know what I mean?
Like they, I don't know, itjust seems weird.
Aaron (29:03):
It's just, you're just getting a note like another
accommodation I have is likelike I I've managed kitchens,
I've managed research projects,uh.
But like in a lab where there'sso many things going on at once
and there's like, say, likeeight lab demonstrators with
(29:24):
like each group of like 12students per like eight lab
demonstrators, there's likeeight different people speaking
at one time and like there's alot going on.
So like I used to have like alab assistant kind of sit next
to me and like pay attention andpick up on things that I kind
of missed, because let's saylike, if you use jargon, that
(29:46):
I've never heard this wordbefore, or like I'm trying to
understand what's been said,that could take me a good 10, 20
minutes and if my brain's notfocusing on that, what I need to
learn from my experiment, thatI've got to do my lab because I
study science, it's like I'vejust missed out on a whole heap
of shit that I need to know forthese experiments.
I used to have someone therelike listening for me and
(30:10):
helping me like regulate myemotions, because sometimes I
would get anxious as fuck.
Will (30:14):
And.
Aaron (30:14):
I need someone to like either tell me like let's go
outside and go for a walk andthen bring me back in, but it's
like I need my hand held in alab environment.
Yeah, like I can manageprojects and stuff, it's like,
but you put me in thisenvironment, which I'm not used
to, and it's like three to fourhours long and you get like
potentially a 10 minute break.
(30:35):
It's like it's it's a lot toput on a student, especially if
they've got like sensoryoverload, because there's bright
lights, things going on, somany different types of
accommodations students can get,but a lot of students don't
know what they can get, so theydon't know what to ask for.
And I think that this is anissue, and I'm a part of this
(30:55):
Students with DisabilitiesLeadership Collective and we're
trying to kind of collate whatpolicies each university has and
then I guess what?
Like we're going to try tostandardize a list of like
comprehensive accommodationsthat students may be able to ask
for, so students know like whatthey may be able to get before
(31:16):
they enter the system, becauseit's like it's it's such a
hassle trying to get a newaccommodation added in if you're
like halfway through yourcourse and you've got like no
time on your hands whatsoeverbecause, like I can't speak for
neurotypical students, butstudents that I do know like
(31:36):
they're behind all the time.
But it's like if you'reneurodivergent, you're behind a
lot of the time and you'realways catching up, so there's
always something you need to dobecause you'll be handing
assessments in late.
For example, you'll have likethree assessments or something
in one week.
It's like it never ends andit's just yeah, it's a very
clunky system and a verystressful system to put yourself
(31:57):
in um yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy crazy.
Will (32:03):
So you know talking about that.
Um, so, universal design inaction what?
What would be some practicalsteps for educators?
So you've just spoken about howit is quite clunky.
What would probably make thatbetter or easier, do you think?
Aaron (32:21):
so accommodations kind of I hate saying this it's kind of
like a band-aid approach.
It's like the foundationsaren't kind of accessible or
inclusive.
So let's just put anaccommodation in to kind of
mitigate these things, becauseacademics aren't say uh
providing uh transcripts forlectures or like providing uh
different formats forassessments to be in.
Will (32:46):
Why aren't they providing transcripts or like recordings
of their sessions?
Aaron (32:51):
Great question.
Some academics do.
Some academics don't know thatit's a feature on the technology
software that they're usingwhich is just like.
It baffles me.
But, yes, like these are thingsthat we're trying to get
standardized.
And this is where UniversalDesign for Learning comes in
because, like within ourinclusive education toolkit I
(33:14):
spoke about, which we've createdfrom a diversified project,
it's like we use UDL UniversalDesign for Learning as our main
framework to structureeverything that we're kind of
giving that educators to kind ofunderstand how to like move
forward in a more inclusivemanner.
And if say, for example, likestudents, there's like a thing
(33:35):
called the hidden curriculum,it's like learning how to learn
and there's so many thingsoutside of learning that you
need to understand and navigateas well as learning your
coursework.
And like students don't knowhow they learn best or what
their like set three kind ofneeds are, or like what their
learning style is or what theirprocessing styles are or what
their communication styles are.
(33:56):
So it's like if the student'sexpected to give a verbal
presentation in front of a wholegroup of students and they're
anxious, or they have dyslexiaand like an ADHD, potentially
like myself, it's like I canthink, but when I communicate,
it doesn't come out the same andit's like I've got anxiety
blocking my neural pathwaysgetting in the way of, like my
(34:20):
execution for communicating.
It's like that's an issue forme, in the way of, like my
execution for communicating.
It's like that's an issue forme.
So, instead of getting studentsto like gain those skill,
confidence, skills of presentingin a classroom, why don't you
just let them do a recording ofthemselves doing it and their
own comforts?
Like it's just changing thebeing more flexible in terms of
like, uh, you provide students,I guess, yeah, more flexible
(34:44):
learning environments or moreflexible like assessment types.
A universal design for learningkind of encompasses like three
different things.
So the first one, like ismultiple means of representation
, so like presenting informationin different ways, like I said
before, like text, audio, videoor like tactile formats, um.
(35:05):
The second one is about likemultiple means of action and
expression, um, so like allowingstudents to show what they've
learned in ways that work bestfor them, such as like essays,
videos, presentations or evenart, which kind of ties into the
first, uh, yeah.
And the third one's likemultiple means of engagement, so
it's like creating options forstudents to stay motivated and
(35:27):
connected, whether that'sthrough collaborative activities
, individual projects or likeflexible pacing.
So, for example, it's like whenI'm speaking to someone,
majority of the time it's kindof polite to look in someone's
eyes when you're speaking tothem, like right now, like I'm
looking here, but if I need toprocess something, I can't look
(35:49):
into somebody's eyes because Ineed to think about what I'm
saying and I can't do that.
If I'm looking in someone's eyes, then you apply that to a
classroom setting and it's likewell for students kind of
dawdling or doodling and likejust drawing whilst they're
listening and the academics likewhy aren't you paying attention
?
It's like I am paying attentionbut I need to kind of channel my
adhd energy.
(36:09):
My energy is always moving, soit's either going to be moving
in my head and I'm going to beanxious, or like overthinking or
not be able to process things.
Or I can process things whilstmy hands moving, or I'm chewing
gum, for example, but like youknow a lot of gum in a lab and
like with adhd and I can'tgeneralize this because not
(36:29):
everybody's the same, but it'slike we need people fidget I
move.
I've got a swizzle chair rightnow.
I'm like my body's moving butI'm trying to keep my like torso
still.
So I'm like not being kind ofrude to people because you're
supposed to kind of stand upstraight and stay still and all
these things when youcommunicate stuff and it's like
that's not how everybodyfunctions and it's just like
(36:51):
there's so many societal kind ofconstructs and ways of doing
things that are formal and justnot how everybody works and it's
just like things need to changeand things need to be more
adaptable and flexible and would.
Will (37:08):
Would you sort of find that like?
I think the biggest thing thatI always talk about is that a
lot of these changes wouldactually be quite simple changes
.
Would you say that as well?
Aaron (37:20):
100 like, say, for example, like providing students
lecture recordings ahead oftime, like some courses are
fully online, so it's like youjust get lecture recordings and
they're not live, uh.
But in some cases it's like youdon't get access to lecture
recordings, like a week beforeor two weeks before.
(37:40):
Like imagine if you uh weretrying to get ahead of your
course two weeks before youstarted the course, but you
don't have access to the lecturerecordings.
Will (37:49):
So you can't fully understand, like what you're
getting yourself into, becauseit's all new information, hey,
but at least if you're gettingaccess to it early, you're like,
ah, now I know I rememberlistening to that and I've got
chronic fatigue andBS.
Aaron (38:04):
So it's like every day I wake up is a whole, completely
new day to me.
I might have energy, I mightfeel sick, I might have brain
fog.
It's like I might feel greatand if I feel great I'm going to
do as much as I can in thattime because I don't know what
tomorrow is going to bring.
So it's like if I can't preparemyself because the academic or
the educator hasn't given meaccess to things before in, like
(38:28):
I need them, like say, twoweeks before example, that might
be pushing it for someacademics, but if you've got
lecture recordings that are ayear old, you can give students
access to that.
And I know some academics whodo give access to those last
year recordings but they putunder red under the recording.
It's like disclaimer, this islast year's recording.
I can't say verbatim that thisis all going to be the same
(38:50):
information, but it'll give youa heads up of what may be in the
course.
So it's like I will give youaccess to a lecture recording or
the slides in real time onceI've got them, but like I don't
have them right now.
This is the best that give youthat can help students so much,
and it's just like there's somany things like sorry, have you
(39:12):
seen?
Will (39:13):
have you seen that new I think google created it where
you can put like all your umstudy notes, for example, into
this app and then it turns itinto a podcast.
Aaron (39:26):
I haven't seen the podcast thing.
Ai is off its head right now.
Will (39:34):
Yeah, totally.
Aaron (39:36):
It's like I say Chachapiti is like my second
brain.
I honestly like I don't knowhow I functioned at university
in life without it beforehand.
So it's just like I yeah, it'sinsane I use it for everything.
Um, it's such a game changer,like I went to a microsoft
(39:57):
hackathon like maybe two weeksago, and one of the people from
the accessibility team they werelike you can scan in.
I can't remember what meetingit was.
It might be Zoom, it might beTeams, whatever.
Like a QR code that'll give youlike the closed captions in the
language that is your firstlanguage.
Oh, wow that's pretty cool andI'm just like, holy fucking shit
(40:19):
, this is so cool and this is solike needed because there's a
lot of international studentswho don't have english as their
first language and they come to,they should have a basis, basic
knowledge of englishunderstanding.
A lot of students do, somedon't, and if a student a
(40:40):
master's student, for example,in an art design course I'm
using this as a like a real lifeexample it's like master
students taking an art anddesign course give an assessment
brief, they don't know how tounderstand it, so they're not
getting the marks they wantbecause they don't understand
what's being asked of them.
Let's say, like you've got thatqr code that could translate
(41:00):
things for them, or you've gotlike an assessment brief which
you like.
Just upload the file if you'vegot chat gpt premium and then
just say translate this intoMandarin, translate this into
Cantonese, whatever languagethey speak.
It's like that's just accessibleeducation totally a form of UDL
(41:23):
, I'd say, because if anacademic can show a student like
that's what they can do, to usethis and change this into their
format, like that's givingstudents options which would
then like kind of lessen theaccommodations the student may
need.
It's not going to get rid ofthem, but it's definitely going
to help the system and it'sgoing to help the educator, but
it's yeah, it blows my mind likehow the education system was
(41:48):
before and it does give me hopebecause things are changing and
it's these conversations we'rehaving now that are going to
make a difference and helpstudents advocate for themselves
more and help academics who arepotentially listening to like
show more interested uh,interest in like udl and like
invest in learning andunderstanding that students need
(42:09):
different formats and differentlike ways of, because do you
know what I've I was talking tosomeone especially about with
like so like, especially withthe academics is that like the
harder.
Will (42:23):
The big problem with them is is that they don't have
teaching backgrounds.
They come from like, whateverit is, and these are some of the
problems that we're facingbecause they don't have that
teaching experience.
Aaron (42:37):
Like.
So within academia you've gotlike I think usually it's 60-40.
You might be like like 60researcher, 40 academic, or you
might be like 60 academic, 40research, or you might be 80
academic, 20 research, or youmight be full academic or full
research.
(42:58):
It's like there's so manyvariations of, like the type of
academic you have.
And if you're more educationfocused, you're going to have
that basic understanding.
Hopefully you're going to havethat basic understanding.
If you're more educationfocused, you're going to have
that basic understanding.
Hopefully you're going to havethat basic understanding.
If you're more research focused,like you don't have all that.
You didn't study education as abackground.
Or you may take a few coursesto get through your phd to
(43:21):
become a professor or somethinglike that or a lecturer, but
it's like you don't have thosefoundational skills some
universities have.
Like I think we've got thefault program which teaches
academics, kind of basic,accessible and inclusive kind of
ways of teaching.
Um, it needs to be probablymandatory.
(43:41):
But then I kind of second guessmyself when I say that, because
something that's mandatory it'slike it's just going to go in
one ear and out the other.
If it's like you're told theyhave to do this and they're not
interested.
So it's like oh, I'm going tosay something before.
What were we speaking about?
Will (44:03):
We were talking about the academics in one ear, out the
other.
It shouldn't be mandatory.
Aaron (44:08):
Another.
So I'm actually aneurodiversity consultant for my
school, which is the School of,like, Biotechnology and
Biotechnological andBiomolecular Sciences.
My major's Molecular Biology,and within my school of BABS I'm
going to call it for short I'ma neurodiversity consultant.
(44:30):
So I'm auditing a course interms of its accessibility and
we have, like, say, 24 differentlectures within one course,
which is 10 weeks, and thenyou've got like eight different
lecturers giving those lecturesand each lecture is structured
differently.
The layout's different.
There should be standard thingswhich UDL kind of emphasises,
(44:51):
so like, say, each lectureshould have a set of lecture
slides, should have learningoutcomes, so a student knows,
like, what they should befocusing on and those learning
outcomes should be linked to thelearning like slides.
Will (45:06):
But that's so.
It's sort of like a trainingplan, like a teaching plan,
correct.
So you know you'll be startingwith this.
It then goes into this.
It then goes into this, correct?
Aaron (45:18):
What I'm doing is I'm mainly focusing on, like, the
guest lecturers who come in andmajority of the time they're not
getting paid, they're experts,industry, they have no education
, potentially I can't speak forall of them even no education
experience or like minimaleducation experience.
So some of them, for example,have like 90 slides for an hour
(45:41):
where, like I'd say, thestandard would be, standard
would be 30 or 40 would be ideal, because that's like two
minutes on each slide.
If you've got 90 slides dividedby, it'll be like 50 or 55
minutes, because you start alecture at like five past, not
on the dot.
So it's like, say, 55 minutes,like 90 divided by 55, that's
(46:06):
like less than a minute of slide.
And it's like, if you've got awhole slide of information,
that's just text.
It's like Information overload.
I've seen a slide that'sliterally a full black
background.
It's like full of text.
There's text at the startthat's like highlighted in red,
(46:29):
the second one's highlighted inyellow and the second one's
highlighted in purple, and I'mjust like if a student didn't
have the lecture, kind ofspeaking towards this, how do
they know where to start andwhat's the important information
?
because everything is it's likethat's not accessible and that's
very overwhelming for anystudent, let alone a
neurodivergent one.
So it's like that's notaccessible and that's very
overwhelming for any student,let alone a neurodivergent one.
So it's like my.
(46:50):
What I'm trying to do is createlike a or, within the limited
time that I've been given forthis uh role, it's like create
like a set of must haveguidelines that guest lecturers
or like non-education focusedacademics can use, to say like I
should have xyz in this orderpotentially, if it's not on the
(47:11):
same order, at least you've gotthem in any way you want.
But like and I'm trying tocreate like a, an empty shell of
like have a title slide, havethis slide, have that.
So I'll have like a set ofwritten guidelines and then I'll
have like an empty shell which,like they should know that like
you've got the visual versionand then you've got like the
written version of like astandard thing that you should
(47:33):
have, because universities don'thave this.
Some might, we might have itwithin UNSW, but within our
school of Babs we don't havethat.
And like we're trying to leadthe way in accessibility, don't
have that, and like we're tryingto lead the way in the
accessibility way.
So it's like it's these thingsthat if you're using universal
(47:54):
to learn, for learning more, andacademics had more of an
understanding and it wasembedded in the university and
accessibility and inclusion werethe foundations of everything
that happens in a university,which it it should, and I
strongly stand by that.
It's like things would be somuch different.
Will (48:14):
Yeah, totally, totally.
Actually, that actually workswell into the next question here
.
So future-proofing education,so the role of UDL in emerging
learning environments.
So I think that rolls inperfectly.
So you know, if we havestandards or procedures in place
, it should make it easier foreveryone, correct?
Aaron (48:38):
It should.
I think this is where AI comesback into the picture, because I
think things like ChatterBT aregame changers, as I said before
, because if you're in a lectureand you can't ask your lecturer
a question because there's notime, or there's questions at
(49:00):
the end, or you've got anxietyand you can't ask the question
because you literally can't,you've got anxiety.
It's debilitating you.
You don't have the confidenceto either speak it out aloud,
which 99 of the students don'thave their cameras on, and they
don't speak, they just theircameras off.
They may put questions in thechat.
It's like if a student doesn'thave the confidence even to put
a question in the chat, it'slike, uh, like that's an issue,
(49:24):
and I think so sorry.
Will (49:25):
So a majority of the lectures are all done online
these days.
Is that correct?
Aaron (49:30):
lectures predominantly yes, it varies from university
to university like tutorials,lectures might be recorded or
they might be live recorded orin person.
Labs within my school havethey're in person and you can't
(49:54):
do them online.
They are trying to look at likeways of having like AI or
virtual VR simulation kind ofthings for labs to pass, because
you have to do certainexperiments and stuff and learn
certain techniques and stufflike that.
But, um, coming back to ai,it's like you've got a 24 7
(50:14):
real-time feedback tutor at yourfingertips, like that, when
you've got ai in your pocket, inyour on your mobile, on your
mac, on your pc, whatever.
And you've got like personalizedlearning, because let's say, if
an academic uses jargon, youcan literally and uh, some
(50:34):
universities don't like you'redoing this, um, but you can
screenshot a lecture slide, forexample, and then put that in
there and say simplify this forme, use an analogy to make this
more simpler for me tounderstand.
Because let's say, if you'venever done a biology course
before and you have no biologyfoundation, it's like you need a
(50:57):
foundation to learn and buildfrom.
So if you can use an analogy,that's in a non-biological terms
and then you can translate thatto a biological terms and then
you can start the foundation.
You're going to learn andunderstand things better.
But if the lecture is notspeaking in the language that
you understand like biologyjargon, for example, and each
(51:19):
science kind of has differentjargon, different words for the
same thing, which, which is soconfusing, and it's like if AI
can translate that or break itdown, simplify it, give you like
flashcards, it can doeverything you need it to.
I think now.
Will (51:37):
But Uni's frowned against that.
Aaron (51:39):
They for note-taking and stuff.
I think it's fine For like,adding in a lecture slide to a
thing like chat tpt.
They don't like because of theip issues, because it's okay,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I see solike they're really strict on
that stuff.
Um, we do have access tomicrosoft co-pilot, the basic
(52:01):
version at usw, which is like aclosed system, so like once you
ask you the question, it ordersto because it's not saved, which
is saving the ip things.
Um, but like you can still say,like you could put like your
own made lecture note documentinto chattopiti and say I need
(52:26):
to create a set of 30 exam styleadvanced multiple choice
questions for me to pre-practicemy exam, like as practice
questions for my notes.
Make sure you hit like certainpoints.
Give me a rationale behind whythe answer is the answer and
then why the other choicesyou've given me aren't right, so
(52:47):
I can learn as much as I canbefore I take this exam.
You don't get that in from anacademic like it's okay, yeah
students can do to use ai totheir advantage create a set of
questions, create flashcardshave you found that helpful for
you?
100 like I, if, even if I've gotquestions that I've generated
(53:09):
myself, I'm like what questionshave I missed here that may be
asked in a final exam?
And majority of the time itpicks up something that you're
like I actually didn't thinkabout that and it's just like
it's just, it's just opening upthe never-ending possibilities
(53:29):
of like what type of questioncould be asked in an exam.
Because, like, majority of thetime it's something that's so
like niche from what's been saidor it's like something little
has been said and they've goneon a tangent that's not kind of
course related or in thematerial, but like they're kind
of they've integrated it somehowand that question just throws
students off.
But if AI can give them thatlike foresight or that insight
(53:53):
into like what potentially mightbe asked, it's like it's so
valuable.
Will (53:58):
Yeah, yeah, that's crazy man, that's crazy.
But we are getting close to theend now, so building inclusive
universities.
What's the intersection ofpolicy, policy practice and
culture?
Aaron (54:12):
as I said before, like policies, universities, any
education system, needs to have.
I find, like I feel verystrongly that like accessibility
and inclusion need to be likethe underpinning of everything
that's been done past and future.
Like we have AI projects goingat the moment at UNSW that like
(54:37):
like I sit in there like demokind of things, where they're
like showcasing it for the firsttime, their beta versions, and
I'm like have you looked at theaccessibility aspects of any of
this?
And they're like they're noteven thinking about it.
I'm just like, as anaccessibility consultant or like
specialist, I'd say, because Iknow a lot about it.
It's like, why haven't youlooked at this yet?
(54:57):
It's like, just because you'relike centralising resources from
a university into one space,it's like how do you know that
the student knows how to gothrough that process in the
first place?
Like, like, how do you knowthat a student knows how to go
through that process in thefirst place?
Like, how do you know thatprocess is accessible to the
student?
Just because you're guidingthem there doesn't mean they're
not going to know how to use it.
It's like accessibility andinclusion needs to be the
foundation of everything that'sbeen done and is that's being
(55:20):
done and is doing has been donelike is happening currently.
Because when that is is it'slike universities are always
going on about uh, students,well-being and belonging, but
it's like how can you belong ifan environment isn't inclusive
to your identity and how youprocess and navigate and
(55:43):
function in life, and how canyou feel like you belong if
things aren't accessible to youin the first place?
It's like accessibility andinclusion when they're done
right and udl is a very goodstarting point it's like they
can create strong foundationsthat then funnel into these
well-being and belonging thingsthat the universities really
prioritize and they put a lot ofmoney for.
(56:04):
But I don't think they're doingthem well enough, because the
accessibility and inclusion isthe, it's the underpinning, and
they're not at that.
They're just looking at itthrough a neurotypical, more
professional lens and it's likewell, you need students a part
of this.
You need them, the lower sesstudents, you need these
(56:26):
disability students.
You need the students who arereally struggling and who really
don't have that sense ofbelonging yet at university
because they don't know how toaccess things, for example.
You need them a part of theconversation.
So I think you need livedexperience and you need
accessibility and inclusion asthe foundations of things.
Will (56:43):
Yeah.
Aaron (56:44):
In any part of society.
I think really, yeah, I'm astrong advocate for that.
Will (56:50):
No, no, yeah, yeah, no, no , no, that's good, that's good,
that's good and it's true.
I think that you know.
So I go to a lot of like techpitch nights and stuff like that
and people are talking.
I tell you what man man, itfeels like everyone's trying to
(57:10):
start a hr program, likeeveryone I know is trying to
build a hr program.
Right, and a lot of the timethey're not even thinking about,
like you know, accessibilityand all of that.
It's like, oh you know, ourprogram will do of that.
It's like, oh, you know, ourprogram will do this, and if it
shows this, that means that theperson's not performing.
(57:33):
And I'm like well, hang on,maybe that means that the
person's struggling withsomething.
Have you looked at it from thatperspective before?
You know so little things likethat there, but pretty crazy
stuff.
But look, aaron, thank you somuch for coming on today.
We've pretty much gotten to theend there today.
(57:53):
You know, if someone wants toconnect with you and the work
that you're doing, what's thebest place to check you out at.
Aaron (58:01):
As I said before, my name's Aaron St James.
I think it was on the screenbefore, so that's like oh yeah
it is A-A-R.
Will (58:17):
Hang on, I'll put it onto the um.
I'll put it um up on the umscreen here.
Hang on, mate, uh, paste, andthen I'll add it.
There we go.
Do you want to spell it out forthe people listening?
Aaron (58:26):
yep.
So, uh, double a r o n s a I nt hyphen j m e s.
So you can find me on linkedin.
You can find me on social media, uh, instagram and facebook.
Um, I've also got a link treebecause I provide, like,
consultancy services and yeah,uh, if you can't find me, reach
(58:47):
out to will, and we'll just passon my details yeah, no, that's
no problem like, yeah, I've gota lot on my plate, but if you've
got any questions or you needany advice, definitely just hit
me up, because I'm so passionateabout changing education,
higher education in particular,and making systems more
(59:08):
functional and more accessiblefor everyone, because when you
use UDL, it's like it caters foreveryone, not the majority, and
it's like that's how societyand things should be.
Will (59:17):
So, yeah, Cool, cool, cool , Awesome man.
Well, look, thanks so much forcoming on Awesome chat there.
Aaron (59:25):
Like always, you got much planned for over the Christmas
period mate, my family's comingfrom Tassie actually, so I'm
going to have a bit of time offand spend it with them, so
that's going to be really nice.
Will (59:35):
Oh well, will you still be in Sydney?
Aaron (59:37):
Yeah, I'll still be in Sydney.
Will (59:39):
Oh, nice man, so you won't be Whereabouts, do you live
again?
Aaron (59:45):
St Peter's.
Will (59:46):
St Peter's, so you won't be hanging around St Peter's.
Aaron (59:51):
I'm actually going to be on the Central Coast, but I will
be oh you're going up there.
Yeah, my sister's friends livethere, so we're going to be
staying at their place andprobably at the beach.
Hopefully it's a hot summerlike last year, was it?
I think it was hot last year, Idon't know what are you?
Will (01:00:10):
doing.
Yeah, I think it was oh man, oh, nothing much on Christmas, but
I think my sister and Lauren, anew boyfriend from Ireland, are
coming down to Sydney for a fewdays.
So I was going to say if youwere free we would have come and
caught up with you, but I thinkyou might be a bit busy, my
friend well, hit me up anywayand I'll see if I can make some
(01:00:33):
time, because I'd love to yeahtotally, man, totally awesome,
man, awesome.
But thank, look, thank you somuch for coming on today.
It's always a pleasure whenwe're chatting, definitely a
topic that I want to talk moreabout in the future.
So I say, this is only thebeginning, but look for all of
our listeners who alreadyhaven't done so, please
(01:00:54):
subscribe, like and follow toall of our social media pages.
My name's Will, and this isNeuroDivergent Mates.
Till next time, you.
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