How being undiagnosed wreaked havoc on my teens and early 20's - Myke Ireland

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On this episode of Neurodivergent Mate’s we are excited to be chatting with Myke Ireland, on  - How being undiagnosed wreaked havoc on my teens and early 20's.


The questions we will be covering include:

QUESTIONS:

1. Tell us a bit about yourself

2. Tell us a bit about your work

3. Tell us a bit about your diagnosis journey

4. What are you now realising about how being undiagnosed impacted you in your teens?

5. And how did it impact your early adulthood?

6. What were some positive ways that neurodivergence impacted your early years?

7. What was the catalyst for you getting a diagnosis?

8. Your diagnosis is recent, so what are your takeways so far?

9. Where can people connect with you and your work?


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Neurodivergent Mates.
I'm your host, Will Wheeler,joined with my main man, Photon

(00:28):
John.
What's going on, brother?

Speaker 2 (00:31):
You know, having one of those Mondays Battling
executive dysfunction a littlebit Lots to do, yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Not a lot of energy to do it.
Yeah, I know how about yourself.
I'm stressed, stressed, I'm verystressed dealing with workplace
harassment and bullying.
I'm not going to go into toomuch about it, but you know what
?
It's just not right, you know,I think this day and age,

(00:57):
neurodivergent people shouldfeel comfortable to be able to
go into a workplace, whicheverworkplace, and know that they're
going to be treatedrespectfully and in the way that
everyone should be treated.
This day and age, you know,bullying just doesn't, it's just
not a thing, you know, and Ithink we need to do the best to

(01:18):
reduce this and stop it.
So I'm stressed, mate.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
So sorry to start the conversation.
I remember one of those daystoo, but we ploughed through it
right.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, hey , I might just ask if you can
turn your microphone just down atad, brother, I can do that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,that's good man, I think that's
a lot better.
But hey, you know what weshould really get into this
today?
We've got an awesome guest allthe way from Melbourne, a good

(01:53):
friend of mine, mike Ireland, totalk to us about how being
undiagnosed wreaked havoc on myteens and early twenties.
Mike, how's it going?
My friend Good.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
Thanks, Jens.
Thanks so much for having me.
This is a pleasure.
I think I mentioned before umfirst time I've ever been a
guest on someone's podcast, soyeah, no welcome, no welcome.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
So, um, uh, just a little bit of, I suppose,
insight into, um, I suppose,mike's and i's relationship, um,
when I was down in melbourneand oh, gee, gee was, how long
was that about a month ago now.

Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, about four weeks ago now, I think.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, I just reached outand said look, everyone, I'm
going to be down in Melbourne.
Mike reached out.
He's like man, come on to mypodcast and I apologise, I can't
remember the name of yourpodcast again.
Real.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
Insight Real Insight.
Real Insight I knew Insight wasthere.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
I couldn't remember the first part.
But, man, awesome set-up Likeyour set-up is killer Like
proper microphones, everything.
So it was such a greatexperience and you know, I think
any listeners here definitelycheck out the work that you're
doing.
But you know we're just sostoked that you were able to um,

(03:09):
come on today.
Um, but look, before we do getstuck into it, let's do a little
bit of housekeeping, just forall of our listeners out there
now.
If you haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
We're available on TikTok,facebook, instagram, x, twitch,
youtube, linkedin, and we'realso available on anywhere you

(03:33):
subscribe to your podcasts.
Also, too, if you haven'talready done so, check out all
the awesome work we're doingover at Neurodiversity Academy,
and you can check that out atneurodiversityacademycom Also.
Today.
We may who knows?
We may talk about some you know, maybe some distressing sort of

(03:56):
things here, so somediscussions may be triggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call
emergency services.
We are not doctors.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and strategies.
Also, too, if you are listeningon the live version which we
are currently in um, please feelfree to ask us any, any

(04:17):
questions or interact with theshow.
We always love to hear from allof our listeners.
Mike, you look, thank you somuch for coming on.
You know um where you knowwe've been chatting forward and
backwards since, uh, catching upin melbourne.
Um, you know you spoke about um, you've just gotten a whole

(04:38):
bunch of diagnosis, all of thattype stuff, and when you and I
were talking, you spoke um.
You know you were speakingabout a lot of stuff and I don't
I think there was some that youweren't quite sure.
Uh, I don't think you got adiagnosis for some of them at
one point there.
But look, um, I reckon um tellus a little bit about yourself

(05:01):
sure, all right.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
So if we start with with what I know now, and then
we can go back and talk abouthow bad that was not knowing.
But yeah, so when we caught up,when you came onto my show, it
was well and truly known that Ihad ADHD.
And that came from a bunch ofjust years and years of not

(05:22):
knowing what was going on withmy life.
But then, particularly in thelast probably three or four
years, I wouldn't say that I hadwhat you would describe as a
mental break, but I definitelywent off the rails a little bit.
You know, to the point where,just where you know that you
aren't dealing very well withlife and it's not necessarily

(05:45):
something that you're aware of,why you know, like I wasn't
necessarily chronicallydepressed or have any sort of
condition that was persisting,but there's just something not
right.
So, anyway, we knew that we hadadhd, um, and then, as part of
the follow-up to that, uh, Iexpressed my interest to try
medication, um, but if youmention medication, the tests

(06:08):
sort of go a little bit deeperand there's some other stuff
that they like to uncover,because stimulant medication
needs to be respected, um, andthat's the sort of thing that
you want to, you know, make surethat you're fit for so.
Further tests um then revealedthat I'm also, uh, asd and out
of those two diagnosesironically, you know, the adhd

(06:29):
diagnosis was somewhatsatisfying um, the asd diagnosis
was the jackpot for me.
Yeah, that, that was whatreally hit home, um, because I
relate so much more to what Iknow about myself, exemplifying
autistic traits that have reallybeen the persistent part of my
entire life, the ADHD stuff youcan always see as an undertone.

(06:52):
But I recognize, particularlywith ASD, my struggles in early
childhood and through my teenyears, just you making
friendships and understandingthe nature of what good
friendships are and how tomaintain them and how they
should feel.
So, yeah, the pitch is completenow and I can title myself

(07:15):
AUDHD.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, I'd like to say welcome to the club, but I
don't actually come under thebanner of AUDHD, so welcome to
our photon john's club.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
hey, mate, hey yeah, uh, it was actually flipped for
me.
So I I knew for ages about theautism because my younger
sister's autistic and we kind offigured it out through her
diagnosis.
But the adhd I just didn'tdidn't really know anything
about because I was sort offocused on being autistic and
that was how I identified.
And then when the person whodiagnosed me finally said,

(07:50):
actually I think ADHD as well, Iwas like, oh, I better read up
on this and I'm like that'sactually the dominant force in
my life.
So yeah, wow, yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
I find you know the nature of these things with ADHD
and ASD.
It's like a hamster wheel.
You know where one thing ismasking the other but causing
the issues of the other.
And it's funny, the more I seethis stuff unraveled in my mind,
I'm like is that actually justsomething that my ADHD is doing

(08:19):
to mask this autistic trait, sothat I'm, you know, not exposed?
Yeah, it becomes this thingthat unravels in your mind where
you're like well, which part isit Like?

Speaker 1 (08:30):
what am I actually doing and you know what right
like from.
Well, it's actually interestingknowing say yourself Ferdon
John, and now yourself Mike, butother Audi HDers as well, and
you can almost and maybe I'mwrong when I've met, say,

(08:52):
autistic people and maybe theyhave different traits to other
Audi HDers.
I can pick them up a lot easierthrough certain things where,
for all DHD and maybe I'm wrongit's almost like the ADHD covers
it, so it's hard to recognise.

(09:15):
Am I right in saying that?

Speaker 3 (09:18):
It's 100% right.
That's exactly what I'm finding, and so then it makes it a
challenge to try and work outwhat it is that I'm actually
addressing today, and becauseI'm sort of going down the
medicated path now as well.
I'm three weeks into medication.
Medication is dealing with someof it.
It's actually taking care ofsome of the ADHD stuff, but then

(09:41):
in turn, the ASD stuff reallystarts to screen through now
because the ADHD is being dealtwith.
So now I'm finding a bunch moreof the ASD stuff that's
creeping up, and yeah, it's.
It's just a new thing for me tohave to try and process yeah,
that would be a complete.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
And you know, fredon John, I think you've said
something similar in the pasthow some people, especially once
they got onto medication, forexample, they actually didn't
like it because it did changemaybe a lot of the things that
and look, this isn't me saying,hey, get off medication, or

(10:24):
anything like that.
No, this is a conversation.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This isn't me saying hey, getoff medication or anything like
that.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
No, this is a conversation.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah totally, you know where.
It quieted the brain, wherethey wanted that, you know.
And even if we look at who isthe bloke who used to be married
to oh what's that famous rapper?
He's really out there.
Oh, what's his name?

(10:50):
You don't narrow it down awhole lot.
Oh man man, what's his name?
And his wife he used to be hiswife.
They've got this famous TV showand it's three sisters and the.
The sister's father was KanyeWest.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
Okay, okay, yeah, so there we go.
That's how ADHD mind's goneinto a full plate there, right?
Um, I think you know, withKanye West we've heard that you
know he's bipolar and all ofthat, that he doesn't use his
medication because apparently itdistracts him from being able

(11:35):
to be creative and stuff likethat, you know.
So it doesn't work for him.
It probably works, but I meanlike it doesn't work in regards.
It probably works, but I meanlike it doesn't work in regards
to his music type of thing.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
It's a balancing act.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
I think it works for some I think too.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
Sorry, John.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
Let's just go there.
I think it works for some, butnot others.

Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, and I think it's a hard adjustment too,
right, like you've been livingthis way for 30-odd something
years.
I got my diagnosis at 44.
So 44 years of living this wayand then all of a sudden,
something changes and so you'relike, well, what now?
Like how do I know whatbaseline is?

(12:22):
So I think you know, and whatI've stuck with during all of
this process is, you know theneed to stick to talking
therapies as well.
So you know, yes, there'smedication.
Medication is not going to fixeverything, right?
So, um, as part of my treatmentplan, um, I catch up
fortnightly with a psychologistand we talk it through, because

(12:44):
there's plenty of stuff thatstill needs to be talked about.
And then I've got an ADHD coachas well.
That's just sort of teaching methe bits and pieces to make my
day a bit easier on myself.
So it's a full holistictreatment plan, right?
And I think you know that's oneof the things that I think a
lot of people get caught up in,in thinking that once I get my
diagnosis, if I get medicated,then I'll be fine and and

(13:08):
everything will be cool a lotmore time, yeah it's a lot more
to it, man.
And and there's actually again,there's a little bit of like
okay, it's great to move intothe medication thing, but then
there's also a bit of a okay,well, this actually needs
thought and exploration as well.
It's not just switch and we'reall good, um, so yeah, it's a
bit of a learning process thereyeah, no, no, it's true, it's

(13:31):
just, and it was actuallyinteresting.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
I went out for um breakfast or brunch, I should
say with my wife and um, uh, oneof the new advisory board
members for NeurodiversityAcademy and his partner, and you
know she was talking about likehow she's really getting into

(13:54):
like other therapies as well.
So, for example, I remember Iwent to this conference and I
met this guy who does like surftherapy and it's like, yes, you
can have be on medication, allthat, but these other things can
be really beneficial as well,if that makes sense, you have to
do everything you can to tryand I don't want to use the word

(14:18):
normalize, because you knownormal can be a tricky word in
our environment but to make yourlife more baseline for you.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
And that's the other thing that you know, I've got to
get used to with this diagnosisis because I've been through my
entire life a chronic peoplepleaser and a chronic I'm always
chronically seeking externalvalidation, you know because
it's just one of those things.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
Can I ask what you mean by people Like what would
you do to be pleasing peopleLike would it be like say, if
someone wanted you to dosomething that you know you
didn't want to do, you'd just doit so you could please them?
Is that what you mean by that?

Speaker 3 (14:58):
Sometimes they wouldn't even have to ask me.
Will you know, sometimes I'mdriven by just thinking that if
I'm not like this, if I don'thave this persona about me, then
I won't be liked.
So then I go over and above forpeople and and then I've got to
also try and find the balancebetween well, part of that is
just being a nice guy too, likeyou can also, you know, peel

(15:22):
that back and go.
It's okay just to be cool andbe wanting to, you know, take
care of all your mates and docool things.
But you always have to checkwhat is the driving validator
behind that.
And my psychologist put methrough a really great exercise
a couple of weeks ago where youform a bit of a roadmap just
based on your core values.

(15:42):
So you've got to go throughthis exercise of deciphering the
values that are important toyou, the ones that aren't
important to you, and then youtry and build this pyramid of
what are my core values and sothen checking in with those
values consistently when you'remaking decisions that you would
have normally done on thatimpulse because I'm either
thinking I need validation or Ineed to serve If you're always

(16:10):
just touching those values andgoing, okay, am I?
If I'm aligning with at leasthalf a dozen of these values,
it's the right decision.
But if I'm not and I'm stillwanting to go ahead with it well
then I'm being driven bysomething that isn't me yeah,
totally, totally, totally nointeresting stuff what we might
do.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
We might just move forward because we do have a few
questions that we, you know,and I think we're we're going
through some really great stuff.
But, um, you know, tell us alittle bit about you know, the
work you do, especially in theneurodiversity community.
You've got we've spoken aboutyour podcast all that.
You know what.
What was the whole, I suppose,drive behind, behind that and

(16:44):
all of that.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
Well, I've always been in technology and it's one
of those things where, if youwere to ask me what I want to do
when I grow up, I stillcouldn't tell you.
I've always been very unsure ofthe career that I wanted, so I
tried to at least make sure thatI again natively stuck to some
values.
I've always loved technology, Ialways loved music and I'm like

(17:08):
so what industries align withthat?
And music production was thething that I landed in, which
led through a few differentcareer paths, and I ended up in
commercial AV.
So large-scale AV stadiums,arenas, hospitals, universities.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
So would you do like big concerts and stuff like that
?

Speaker 3 (17:28):
uh, we would more fit out a stadium.
So like marvel stadium, forinstance, like the pa at marvel
stadium is something that welook after.
Oh wow, that's crazy.
What bands have you done?
Then, oh, I don't do.
No, I don't do.
I'm a complete back of houseguy man.
I'm the guy that builds thesystems.
I don't do.
No, I don't do.
I'm a complete back of houseguy man.
I'm the guy that builds thesystems.
I don't do any staging ormixing or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
Oh, but it's for like big, like concerts, right?
Corporate AV, yeah, so more soif you went to like Star City.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah, yeah, if you're in Star City and you're in one
of the big entertainment roomsor the big conference rooms,
that's the sort of stuff that wefit out ah, okay, yeah, cool,
cool, cool.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
So you spend a lot of time at conferences.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
Then always like within the understanding of how
av is used in an environment.
Yeah, yeah so now I.
I made it through um, variousexecutive positions heaven knows
how at this point, um, but nowI'm a director of technology at
the firm that I work for, um,and I tell an interesting story

(18:30):
about this because it's it'scooling how this came about.
I talk about four years ago howmy mental health 100 went off
the rails and I was working foran organization that was um
wasn't necessarily the bestorganization for me, I would say
, similar to sort of what wewere talking about before, will,
where there's an understandingand then sometimes there's not

(18:52):
an understanding, and I felt inthat environment I probably
wasn't understood the best.
Coming to Insight, the placethat I'm at now, the wholesale
change in how this business wassupportive of its people,
culture was first, you know,inclusivity mattered.
All of those things allmattered and for the first time

(19:14):
ever, when I started to expressthat I may have been dealing
with challenges, because I wouldnever vocalize that in the work
environment, but startedvocalizing that the amount of
people that rallied around me tosupport me was not anything
that I was ever familiar with.
So, inherently, what that placegave me was an opportunity to
actually be able to take stockin myself, step back from the

(19:35):
grind.
That is, you know you're asenior exec and actually look
after myself, and I think if Ididn't make this move into this
role, I probably would havenever gone through the journey
that I went through.
We wouldn't be talking.
So if they talk about the rightthings coming along at the
right time, definitely I wasfortunate enough for that.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, no, that's awesome and you know, just
hearing about that workplace,you know how supportive they are
and you know how has that madeyou, I suppose.
How is that for every day inthe workplace?

Speaker 3 (20:14):
out of curiosity, yeah, well, it's one of those
things where I came into thisplace.
I've worked for organisationspreviously that had amazing
workplace culture.
I worked for Alan's Music, andyou'll remember alan's music
yeah yep, work there for a while, another place where you work
with people that are justpassionate.
They can't get enough of whatthey do.

(20:34):
They love it, um, but in thesense of coming to this place,
it's then inspired me to do abit more around my
neurodiversity, because this isall new for me Again.
I've only known about this fora year.
But I thought, well, I know howhard it was for me and I know
how much pain I went through,not knowing what was wrong with

(20:59):
me but also never feeling like Ibelonged or was supported.
So it became a thing where I'mlike, okay, this can cripple me
or it can give me another powerto wield out in the world, and
so my decision was that, and soI guess almost overnight, I
turned a little bit spokesperson, just because there is not

(21:19):
enough talk about this stuff.
There is still not enough talkand there's still not enough
understanding, there's still notenough support and people don't
get it Like.
I started down this journey andwe can get into this a bit
later.
But I started down this journeybecause a friend of mine told
me they were neurodivergent andI turned really judgy on the

(21:42):
word because I thought is thisjust another one of those words
that people come up with becausethey can't face their real
problem.
And then that sent me down thisrabbit hole of uncovering what
neurodivergence was and then,all of a sudden, realizing that
I had something that I knew.
I could just do myself it's soweird.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
Sorry, how long ago was that?

Speaker 3 (22:02):
that was probably two years ago, because it was as
the podcast, my podcast wasstarting.
Yeah, um, because one of theguests that I wanted to get on
is a female entrepreneur that Ilove and admire and have
followed for years.
Um, she's a good personalfriend of mine but I said, okay,
let's talk about like, what arewe going to talk about when you
come on the podcast?
And she's like, I'd love totalk about what it means to be
neurodivergent and anentrepreneur and I'm like what

(22:24):
is neurodivergent?

Speaker 1 (22:26):
and and then, yeah, yeah, this is neurodivergent
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Dude, sorry I'm gonna saysomething great, but when I came
on your podcast, we didn't evenhave a conversation about what
we were going to talk about, ifI remember correctly Because I
remember right rolling inthinking, oh man, the dude

(22:47):
hasn't sent me any questions oranything and then you and I were
just there talking I'm like hehasn't spoken about anything.
Then we just sat down androlled with it.
It's one gift that I've got,will, the one gift that I've got
is that of a gab well, the onegift that I've got is that that
that of the gab there's uh, yeah, you nailed it, man, you nailed

(23:07):
it and and and you know what.
I think that's the best way todo it as well, you know, but it
can depend on your guests, Ithink as well, because if you've
got a guest, just roll with it.
Then you've probably got otherguests who are like oh my god, I
need to know the questionsbefore I get that type of thing.

Speaker 3 (23:24):
I've had episodes that haven't gone to air because
they went off the rails, justthe way that it is sometimes.
Oh really, oh really.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
So ours obviously rolled.
Well then, mate.
Beautiful Ours obviously rolledwell hey you know?

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Oh sorry, we don't have that luxury because we're
live Speaking of which just toour audience.
We're having slight technicaldifficulties.
How am I sounding now Will?

Speaker 1 (23:48):
You're still a little bit loud and like really young
Okay.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
Like what are you?

Speaker 1 (23:54):
doing.
A bit boomy Turn it like rightdown, man Turn it right down.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
No, it's nearly off.
It's the connection, not themic.
I'm just going to have to jumpout and back in again.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
Sorry guys, I'll be back.
No problem, mate, I'll hold thefort for you, all right?
Okay, cool, cool.
So you know we've spoken alittle bit about you know, when
you're diagnosed, but what wasthat diagnosis journey like for
you?
Then, you know, you, you'retalking to someone on your
podcast going oh my god, I thinkthis is me.

(24:27):
What then happened for you then?

Speaker 3 (24:30):
yeah.
So the natural inclination forme I am a dramatic researcher,
you know, and research mode is ais another sort of adhd asd
thing that I uncovered.
But if I need to know somethingabout anything, I need to know
everything, um, and so initially, when I was looking at what

(24:51):
does neurodivergent mean and andwhat does that uncover, um, I
would start to come acrossthings that seemed familiar to
me, and I think the the, thesymptom that I uncovered that I
that really familiar to me, andI think the symptom that I
uncovered that really screamedto me like you are affected by
this was the concept ofrejection sensitivity.
So rejection sensitivity,dysphoria is probably one of my

(25:15):
most defining symptoms, in thesense of it has prevented me
from being comfortable enough tomove into a bunch of things in
my life that I wanted to do butalways thought there's no way
I'm going to be able to do thisbecause if I fail then people
will think I'm a piece of shitand so on, and so on.

(25:35):
So RSD was that thing where I'mlike, hang on a minute, is this
just not how everyone feels?
And then that led to another,led to another, led to another
and all of a sudden you'rereading like it almost feels
like your autobiography.
And so I went and saw the GP.
Gp did what he had to do andthen made some referrals.

(25:59):
And you know, I guess I wasfortunate enough that I always
had connections with people thathad either received diagnoses
or that were in psychology.
I've got a lot of friends thatare sort of in you know, either
clinical or research, and it'sprobably safe to say that.
You know, I was peer-reviewedum adhd a few times by people
around me that could see thatthey're the sorts of symptoms

(26:20):
that I had.
Um, it just took the you, theformal approach to get it worked
out.
And here we are.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Yeah, there you go, there you go.
Now.
It's definitely interesting, Ithink, for myself.
That I found was how normallife my normal life used to be
before diagnosis, life my normallife used to be before

(26:49):
diagnosis, how I started torealize that a lot of the things
that I'd normally do in thepast, that was what was
affecting me, if that makessense.
So, you know, busy shoppingcenter or going to a music
festival or whatever that was,or even going to the pub.
You know, I remember when I wasyounger going to a pub and

(27:09):
being so overwhelmed by everyonethere that I just had to start
drinking as much as I could toget drunk so I could just kill
that pain, but then I'd justkeep on going.
I didn't know how to stop andit was a real big problem, you
know.
But with that being said, whatare you now realising about how

(27:32):
being undiagnosed impacted youin your teens?

Speaker 3 (27:37):
Man my teens were punishing.
I was a very insecure kid, um,my, my family life wasn't
necessarily typical, um, youknow, my, my parents separated
quite early and I moved fromlocation to location quite a lot

(27:57):
as a kid, um, which wasextremely terrifying when you
don't necessarily have a bigfamily or a big community around
you.
You always sort of always feellike you're facing that alone.
But I could tell now, lookingback at ADHD and its influence
on those actions.
Every time I had the opportunityto move either started new

(28:21):
school or move into a new classat school because I, because I
was so disruptive, I got movedaround quite a lot um, it always
presented as an opportunity forme to reinvent myself.
So what I would do would belook back on the last
appointment, you know, the lastschool or whatever I was at, all
the things that people likedabout me, I didn't like about me
, the stuff that I said that youknow got good feedback and the

(28:44):
stuff that I said, and I wouldrefine my character to a point
where, if I go into this nextschool, I'm gonna be the person
that they actually want thistime and I would drive myself
crazy, man trying to pleaseeveryone, trying yeah, people
pleasing once again.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep yeah, yep, yep.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
And then you know you also have that other thing
that's going on whilst you'reundiagnosed at school, which is,
you know, you're always introuble, you're consistently
distracting, you are a classclown, you won't settle down.
We spoke about this on my show.
You get tarred with this brush,that is, you're just like an
uproar um.

(29:25):
But then you're also put inthis environment where I can do
really well at what you tell meto do.
I'll do it that well, but I'lldo it in 15 minutes.
But the trade-off is you'rethen going to make me sit in
this room for 50 minutes with mymouth closed, and that just
doesn't work for me yeah, it'slike pain.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
I think we even said this on your podcast.
It's like pain it's torture.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
I mean, you know it's just so.
Then you, you know you, yeah,you want to then, um, continue
to seek that attention and thatvalidity.
And so, you know, I was alwaysthe kid that got attention by
doing negative stuff, um, and itwasn't until I had one teacher.
You know the one woman JeannieYoung was her name and, god
bless her, she's passed away nowbut she was that teacher where

(30:10):
every other teacher just wantedme gone, or, you know, they just
couldn't be bothered with aproblem anymore.
She was the woman that decidedto sit down and say mate,
there's something that you'rereally good at, and it's not
just being bad, um, and shecould see through it.
And she was the one that sort ofput me on the path to and I

(30:31):
credit her with my ability tospeak publicly she made a bet
with me in year 11 where shesaid if you can pull your head
in and do well and I don't meanyou need to get a's or anything
like that, I just don't want tosee you doing pull your head in
and do well, and I don't meanyou need to get A's or anything
like that, I just don't want tosee you doing the same stuff
that you do every year in year12, because I will put you on
stage as a valedictorian and I'mlike I couldn't think of

(30:53):
anything better at that age thanbeing the focal point of our
graduation.
So I did it and I got the gigand I credit her for that
because, again, she was that onewoman who decided to just look
a little bit deeper and go eh,kid's got skill, just doesn't
know how to use it.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
And you know, look, I had teachers who were the exact
same.
They were definitely don't getme wrong if I was doing bad
stuff, they would definitelytell me off for it.
Bad stuff, they woulddefinitely tell me off for it.
But yeah, it was like they knewhow to build, I knew they.
They respected me and Irespected them back, so I did do

(31:34):
something right.
I'd be like, come on, well, andyou're like, yeah, man, I can't
not do.
Do you know?
Do this, because this is, thisis the person who's doing really
well for me.
And a a lot of the time when Ihad those teachers, I really
thrived and it was actuallyinteresting.
So when I was down in Melbournefor Edutech, I did the speech at

(31:54):
Edutech, all of that, and gotoff stage and this lady yells
out to me while I'm walkingthrough the convention centre
there and she's like Will, will,will, you're awesome.
And I'm like, oh, thank you somuch, you know.
And I went over and startedtalking to her and this was a
you know, this woman obviouslyworked in a school and she was

(32:17):
with another woman and I couldjust see that this woman was
just so, you know, such a lovelyperson and such a good.
But then the woman next to herhad like this angry look on her
face, like what I was thinkingwas.
She was thinking I was full ofshit because of what I was.

(32:39):
You know, I'm like, you know,when I had this and that, and
you can just see she wasprobably one of those teachers
that I would never have gottenalong with, if that makes sense,
you know.
So they're still out there.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, there's heaps of them out there, and so you
know, that's what reallyinspired me, I think, to make
the switch.
To make sure that you know, nowI'm driving for that
neurodiverse inclusivity because, particularly in our area, in
tech, it's weird.
You look at stats, man, theyused to think that about 6% to
8% of people in tech wereneurodiverse and now they're

(33:18):
thinking it's more like 50 or 60.
Yeah, yeah, so the amount ofpeople in my industry that don't
know of the condition thatthey've got, I, I'm figuring let
me just make noise, you know.
Let me make it known if oneother person can be helped out
sorry, kev, how you're back mate, how are we sounding?

Speaker 2 (33:40):
are we sounding better?

Speaker 1 (33:41):
nah, man, you're still really tinny it's a little
bit better.
It's a little bit better canyou move the mic away from you a
little bit it's on all the samesettings.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
That normally is.
I think we're dealing with uswith australian internet right
now move it away from you, it'syeah it's on the other side of
the desk do you want to maybeput it into the other?
Room, then I'll just shut upmostly, yeah, yeah, yeah all

(34:13):
good, mate, all good, all good.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Now, um, you know, we spoke about, like you know,
your, your teen years and all ofthat type of stuff.
But what about adulthood?
Now, you know, because you know, because you know, I think for
myself, especially when I wentfrom being a teen into adulthood
you don't have people tellingyou, hey, don't do that or do

(34:37):
this or whatever.
You're free to do.
Whatever the hell you want.
What did that look like for you?

Speaker 3 (34:43):
you're free to do whatever the hell you want.
What did that look like for you?
So there was something reallyinteresting that happened, um,
in the shift from my teen yearsto adulthood and it was very
defining, clearly not um.
I wasn't aware of what washappening.
If I look back now it's veryclear, but it goes back to sort
of what you were saying before.
So I was a pretty good kid inschool as far as um like, I was

(35:07):
a clown, but I never got intotrouble.
So, like, I wasn't theshoplifting kid.
I didn't smoke weed, I didn'tdrink underage, I didn't do any
of that stuff.
I didn't even smoke cigarettes.
I was, like, super superbehavedin terms of outside of academia
and I wasn't really social asin.

(35:29):
Like, I wasn't a kid that wentto a lot of parties, or I didn't
really get invited to a lot ofparties, but I didn't
participate in the socialenvironment.
As soon as I turned 18, Iremember going out, and the
first time I went out was to anightclub in Melbourne that used
to be called the Chevron andthe Chevron had Thursday night,
uni night, which was dollar potsand spirits.

(35:50):
And you know, obviously, ifyou're a poor uni student, you
go there Totally.
There's big crowds, a lot oflights.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
With everyone else.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, great.
It was my first time, like, innightclubs.
I'd never been to nightclubs,I've never even snuck in
underage.
But all of a sudden I'm in anightclub and I'm like like what
you were saying before I can'tdeal with.
This is full-on, like it's somuch people, so much stuff.
But then you start on these andyou're like, well, life's going
down, like if I have a drink,it's sweet, like I can talk to
anyone, I can, yes, dance, I can.

(36:20):
Like I'm not even worried.
Um, so then you know, drinkingon the regular was the thing and
that was my okay.
Well, now I can be social, Ijust have a couple drinks, all
good, um, and then I fell intothat scene, um, and I started
djing.
I started doing all of thatstuff because I just loved.
You know what I discovered?
Um, and it became a passion forme.

(36:42):
But obviously with thosepassions, in particular in those
scenes, uh, you know,recreational drug use was
another thing.
That sort of started to creepin in my mid-20s and I say, hand
on my heart, the first time Iever took ecstasy.
It changed my whole ability toconnect and relate to other

(37:04):
people to a point where you knowpeople that do, that will
express how that feels for them.
But I know now that that wasreally a similar and I won't say
similar because it's not but inknowing how to use stimulants
to change the way my mind workswas something that I obviously

(37:26):
learned organically through thatprocess.
And then those stimulant typesof recreational drugs become
something that you use to get aresult.
That is typically medicatingyourself, but you're doing it
wrong, shouldn't be doing that.
But you know, that's where Istarted to understand that
something's up with my brain,because I always struggled with

(37:48):
personal relationships.
I've always struggled withfamily relationships.
I've always struggled withrelationships at work.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
Has that changed now?

Speaker 3 (37:57):
out of curiosity.
It's getting better.
It's getting better because Iknow yeah, I know what my role
is and what I'm responsible for,you know, in those
relationships.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Sorry, because it's actually interesting.
So you know, with work forexample, how, like, why doesn't
it work?
Type of thing.
If you don't mind me asking,you know, is it that you just
feel like you keep to yourself,or I'm not sure?

Speaker 3 (38:32):
just feel like you keep to yourself, or I'm not
sure.
My biggest issue in my worklife was the ability to make
rational decisions based on fact, without being overwhelmed by
the emotional value of thedecision.
Um, which is one of the thingswe're talking about.
Before that, probably thebiggest change I noticed with
being medicated is that now,whenever I am faced with a

(38:52):
choice, I'm no longer faced withlike this tsunami of emotion
that plays out like all thesedifferent fractals of what, if
it goes this way, I make thischoice and this happens and,
like you know, it's likeinception.
My mind would play out the 400different endings and stress
about them all, where now I cansort of go okay, well, there's

(39:13):
not too much emotion with it.
Now let me make the decisionbased on the facts that I have
in front of me and the peoplethat are involved.
Um, so that's something thatI've never been able to do.
And now, when I look back, youknow, you just see, time after
time where ADHD had played itsrole yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy,

(39:34):
crazy, you know.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
But you know, obviously, um, you know, I know,
for myself, especially inadulthood, um, it, it just
spiraled out of control for along time and, um, you know,
definitely with drugs and andalcohol, all of that.

(39:56):
But you know, I just got to areal point where I hated feeling
the way I did when I wasutilizing those those types of
you know things right.
So, for example, let's say, aFriday afternoon you catch up
with all your mates for a beerand then you wake up Saturday

(40:19):
morning and you're just hungover, as right.
And I remember, like having aFriday night where I'm like you
know what, I'm just going towatch the cricket.
Tonight, for example, all of mymates were sitting out the back
just pissing on, and all ofthat I said you know what, and
they were out there like, hey,will you coming out?
I'm like no, no, I'm just goingto sit here and watch the
cricket, watch the cricket.

(40:40):
And then I'll never forgetwaking up the next day and being
like, oh, my god, I'm gonna goand pay my bills.
You know, because back in thosedays, like you would have to
like pay your bills at the postoffice or whatever, like that
and like just the feeling ofbeing clear-headed.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
It was almost like a drug within itself
neurodivergent medicself-medicating with alcohol and
drugs too, can be a bit moreextreme than your neurotypical
person using those things.
So hairs can be worse and yougo a bit harder and yeah, yeah,
totally, and the thing thatalways used to happen to me too
that like it.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
It was weird because I couldn't understand the
philosophy behind it, butwhenever I was in those circles
and under the influence,particularly of like, of a
stimulant, recreational drug, Icould do amounts of that
stimulant and all my friendswould be like dude, have you
done anything Like?
Because you seem normal, likeand I would feel normal Like.

(41:45):
I would actually sit there andbe like, I can think clearly,
like.
You know it's.
It was just.
It was such a weird experiencefor me, um, but you know, an
early indicator that there wasjust something not quite right
with the chemistry of my brainyeah, totally, totally it's.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
It's definitely interesting how it works.
But, um, what were somepositive ways that
neurodivergence impacted yourearly years?
You know, did you see some?
And maybe going into your 20sas well, you know what was and
and you know, I think, whenphoton john and I were um
putting these questions together, I think a big thing for me was

(42:22):
, you know, I got into a band, Iwas very creative with writing.
I would do things a lotdifferently to others.
You know that was somethingthat really was good.
But then it was the whole otherside of the thing, like what
you were speaking about is.

(42:42):
I was then around drugs,alcohol, that party lifestyle,
that sort of like broke it uptype of thing, if that makes
sense.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah, the positive stuff.
I mean I was very content beingalone.
You know I was a loner and Iwas always happy being alone.
And I remember, you know when,was a loner and I was always
happy being alone.
And I remember, you know, whenI started holidaying, we used to

(43:14):
holiday in Gippsland when I wasprobably between the ages of
maybe 10 and 18.
And it was one of those placesyou would go to.
It's a caravan park and there'sa lot of outdoor activities and
kids are riding motorbikes andyou know dudes are going off
adventures in the bush and waterskiing and all that sort of
stuff.
And I was pretty content takingmy back when I was a sega mega
drive.
I was pretty content taking mymega drive, a mega drive, and I

(43:36):
would just sit in the caravanfor two weeks and play and I
remember everyone saying to melike what'd?

Speaker 1 (43:42):
you come on the trip for exactly.

Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yeah, yeah, this understanding of know you need
to be doing these other things,but I used to love what I loved
and the thing that I remember asa kid was, if I love something,
man, I was so in love with it.
And I used to love playingvideo games.
I used to love just watching myfavorite movies as a kid over
and over again, listening to thesame music over and over again.

(44:06):
You know, I started collectingcomics when I was in year seven
and then I started collectingfigurines and I became obsessed
with Star Wars and you know it'sjust like my obsession with
things I actually love.
You know, I love that I'mdriven to know so much about
something, sometimes Like I walkaround with so much useless

(44:28):
knowledge in my head, butsometimes someone can say
something and I can drop commentand and jump in on that
conversation as if I know whatI'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, I, I know I love that.
I know one of my favoritethings was to take drugs and
watch train spotting and I wouldwatch that like three times in
a row in a night and I would dothat most weekends, you know, if
I wasn't out doing stuff, itnever even occurred to me that
it was a bit strange until myfriends were like, hey, you know
, normal people don't do that,right?
Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
It was.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
The Matrix for me.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
Or sitting there like early hours of the morning
coming down watching Rage.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
Did you?

Speaker 1 (45:12):
ever watch it.
I'm like God, I just thinkabout that.
I'm like cringe, cringe, cringe.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
Yeah, and if you couldn't get to sleep, you were
up long enough to then watchRecovery, because Recovery would
come on at about 8 or 9 in themorning and that's when you knew
like the whole day is a waste,then yeah totally, totally,
totally.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
So what was the catalyst for you getting a
diagnosis?
I think we actually coveredthis before you know, so we
might move on from that.
Actually, now, your diagnosisis recent, so what are your
takeaways so far?

Speaker 3 (45:54):
There's so many.
There's so many.
I think, you know, the onething that I'm finding hard but
is omnipresent, is this conceptof now that that you have your
diagnosis like be kinder toyourself um, because I've always

(46:14):
been my harshest critic andagain that being built on things
like rejection, sensitivity,and you know the issues that
come from no real confidence orself-belief.
Um, but I'm trying to.
You know, even in times liketoday, I was just doing
something around the house and Igot it wrong and the first

(46:34):
thing that my mind does is thatgoing piece of shit, like why do
you even keep doing thesethings when you can just never
get them right?
You know, it's like no matterhow many times you've done it,
you keep making the samemistakes.
And then I'm like this is thepoint where I've got to get my
mind to change that response,and I can only do that by
reminding myself that this ishow I am, like I'm going to

(46:56):
continue to do this for the restof my life.
It's not going to change.
So I'm trying to become a bitmore content in sitting with
that.
You know, be kinder to yourself, but you're undoing 44 years'
worth of negative self-talk.
So there's work to do there.
But I think that's the thingthat is probably the most
freeing for me is once I can beconvinced that it's all right,

(47:19):
you know it's just how you are,things will get better.
So that's definitely one of thekey takeaways.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
The other key takeaway did you arrive at that
point right away, or was it abit of a realization to get to
that point?
Because I know for myself?
It was more oh okay, well, nowthat I know what it is, I can
learn how to be a normal person,and it took me a while to
realize.
No, I can learn how my brainworks and to accept that and to
work better with that, ratherthan thinking that I could be

(47:49):
fixed.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Yeah, I am still in that adjustment phase, so you
were just trying to you figuredout just to be yourself, right,
yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
So I'm actually 70% through that.
Yeah, it's sort of likeinteresting.
Like interesting because, likeI think and I learned this over,
actually, the pandemic theimportance of being yourself,
how much better that is on yourmental health as well, and I
think that's carrying into mydiagnosis and all of that stuff,

(48:23):
because, especially in business, all of that, I used to wear
suits, you know, shaved heads,stuff like that, and it's like
that.
So wasn't me.
And I think back to those daysand I'm like I don't know, I
just felt weak.
I look at it and I think, oh myGod, how strange, you know, and

(48:47):
I think, like what you weresaying before, mike was like,
was it to just try and pleasepeople, or was I trying to live
a world that I'm not?
For example, maybe I was tryingto be some big business person
who wears a suit, who's like aCEO or something like that.
But a CEO doesn't have to weara suit these days.

(49:08):
You can just be you, and once Irealised that, that was where,
man, I just was able to thriveso much better.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
I used to brush up against a lot of my old managers
for that very topic.
So I was the guy that alwayswent to work like this.
I've been a jeans, t-shirt andhoodie guy most of my life and,
again, very ASD in nature, right, like always comfy clothes.
And I used to brush up againstmanagement who'd be like no, if
you're going to see that client,it's got to be full suit.

(49:41):
I'm like why?
Because that's what's expected.
I'm like why is that expected?
Why is it expected that I walkin in a suit?
And does it matter if I walk inin a suit, talk absolute
rubbish, don't know anythingthat I need to know about and
just bullshit my way through it?
Is the suit going to sell that?
Or is it better that I go inwith a hoodie and a pair of
jeans and actually know what I'mtalking about?

(50:05):
I used to always have that grief.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
I've had this experience lately with
rebranding my business andcalling it punk digital instead
of proper digital.
And it came to me when I wasgetting my knuckle tattoos and
it was running through my headlike, oh, what a client's going
to think about this.
And I was like you know what?
No, I need to be more myselfand more like this, and they
might look at me sideways when Icome in the room.
But once I was like you knowwhat?
No, I need to be more myselfand more like this, and they

(50:27):
might look at me sideways when Icome in the room, but once I
start talking, they can see thatI know what I'm doing and I get
that freedom and that stressrelief of being myself.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
And that's the gift again, that's the gift that I've
been afforded with thisemployment, though I have worked
for other employers that werevery, uh, supportive and
encouraging and things like that.
Never have I been in a businesswhere you were so invited to be
yourself, um.
But then I'm also aware toothat, like you know, at an

(51:00):
executive level there is alittle bit more opportunity to
be yourself, right, becauseyou're sort of setting the
standard.
So at that point, you know,that's where then I also lent
right into that diagnosis,because, well, now I can
actually set an example as towhat it means to build an
environment for people to thrive, because I've got inside

(51:21):
knowledge.
You know, for the first timeever I've got inside knowledge
in what it's like to be, ofneurodivergence, um, simply just
having lived a life that way,and I've never just naturally
known something, um.
So that's one of those thingswhere I think, okay, well, well,
this is really I'm gonna sayit's a calling, but it's, it's
something that I need to be ableto spend more time leaning into

(51:43):
, um, otherwise it's a waste andyou want to.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
You want to anyway because you remember your.
You remember your ownexperience being undiagnosed for
so long and you don't.
You don't want to see otherpeople have to go through that
and the only way that changes isthrough conversations correct?

Speaker 1 (52:00):
yeah, and it's true, because how many?
And I don't know about you guys, but I am coming across so many
people now who, just becauseI'm talking about certain things
or I'm open about certainthings, they're learning a lot
more about themselves andthey're going oh my god, I think

(52:21):
I'm this now, and then they'llend up going get tested, all
that, and it'll come back thatthey're ADHD or they're ASD or
whatever.
That is, what about your mum?

Speaker 2 (52:35):
that's her, that's her experience.
So through my sister'sdiagnosis and my diagnosis, she
got to her own oh really, andnow she's learning through the
podcast and just knowing me andyeah, it's great, great to see.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
Oh, nice, nice, nice, nice, it's definitely I get a
stack of um of messages.
Now, like you know, I'm pretty,uh, vocal on linkedin um,
because linked LinkedIn can be abit dry, particularly in our
community, you know.
People don't necessarily do alot of talking about that.
So I've made a point to reallybe loud about it on LinkedIn and

(53:10):
I get people messaging me.
Some of these people I've knownfor 10, 15 years and all of a
sudden they reach out.
They're like hey, just wantedto ask you some questions
because I've got a son, you know, that is showing these sorts of
things and what should youthink I should do?
Or, you know, did you relate tothis when you were a kid?
And just little things whereI'm like okay, well, I'm just
going to keep doing this becauseit seems to be working it's

(53:32):
actually so.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
That's so interesting because whenever I'm talking at
conferences or whatever, youknow, I I'm open as right, and
it is it's the parents, after Iget off stage, who are coming up
to me and they're like, oh myGod, thank you so much for
speaking, because that's my son,my son's growing up, but really
worried about you know what'snext for them in regards to what

(53:56):
education to do in regards tohigher learning for them, in
regards to what education to doin regards to higher learning,
all of that type of stuff.
And I think that's where it'sreally beneficial to speak about
these things, and I think aswell, by speaking, it's not
forcing people to have todisclose.
If that makes sense, they justmight feel more comfortable to

(54:18):
want to disclose then.
If that makes sense, they justmight feel more comfortable to
want to disclose then, if thatmakes sense.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
Yeah, or they run into you at you know an event
three months from now and you'rejust that person that they can
gravitate to and go.
Hey, you know you've got fiveminutes.
I just wanted to ask yousomething.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
It's so interesting because it's like when I do meet
people who you know are eitherADHD, autistic or whatever, we
just seem to.
It's like this Instant.
It was like when you and I metup, right Like to tell you the
truth, right like when I met upwith you, I drank coffee Now, I

(54:56):
hardly ever drink coffee and Iwas on edge when I saw you mate.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
I was like oh my.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
God, how do I calm down?
Because I hardly ever drinkcoffee.
And it was only because I'dflown down really early in the
morning that I was like you knowwhat?
I think I might have a coffee,but yeah, it just put me on edge
.
So I was on edge when I waswith you, but the thing it was
just like oh, we just clicked,you know, and I think it was

(55:26):
good because we were speakingbefore we went on the podcast,
and it was like it was more sortof like oh, let's just move it
to the podcast now, and then wejust it just flowed, type of
thing.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
And I've got a story that I wanted to capitalize on
that too, because you talk aboutin the vein of neurodivergent
people clicking, and this is oneof the things that, when I got
my diagnosis, my mind went backand I went back to a point where
I'm back at this caravan parkthat I used to holiday at and
I'm probably 13 or 14 years oldand, like I said, every year

(56:02):
upon year I would go there and Iwouldn't necessarily click with
anyone because they're all verydifferent.
I remember one year there was akid, a new family had come to
the caravan park for the firsttime.
There was a kid, aaron Icertainly his name was Aaron.
He had a younger brother, aaronand I became mates instantly,
didn't even know each other andwe became mates because we just

(56:23):
had all the same little thingsthat we like to do and I thought
this is great.
I'm going to love coming hereagain, because now I finally got
a friend and I remember aboutfour or five days after I met
him, we're just riding pushbikesaround and we're at the front
of his caravan and his parentscame out and his dad came up to
me and said oh hey, you know,it's really nice to meet you.
We really appreciate youspending some time with Aaron,

(56:46):
because Aaron's got ADD and it'shard for him to make friends.
I had no idea what ADD was.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
I'm like I don't know what you're talking about, dude
, I don't know what the jam is.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
He's a cool kid and I'm hanging out with him and
we're having a good time, Likewhatever.

Speaker 3 (57:03):
That's a weird thing to say to a kid actually, yeah,
but later on, like I startedalways going back to that moment
being like what do you mean byADD?
And then, like you learn allthese different things.
And then, when I got mydiagnosis, I'm like well, of
course it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
It course, it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
It was the only kid that I could connect with.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Hey, it's interesting, is it?
What was that like for you,phoenix john?
Um, you know I I can't thinkback.
I was just trying to think backthen because I don't think I
ever have to whether any of myfriends were neurodivergent, but
they probably were some of them.
You know I hang out with theweirdest of the weird kids.
It was definitely, you know,the metalhead punk kid in school
Hang on.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Sorry, I need to sort of say this is totally
unrelated and this is just myADHD brain.
Wait, did you guys see thestuff with like Jane's Addiction
on stage?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
Oh my God, man Harry's like 65 years old and
he's trying to punch on withNavarro.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
I know man he just like he was pissed man.
Hey, he was.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Perry Farrell is a tripper.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
Is he?

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Have you ever watched an?

Speaker 3 (58:12):
interview with him.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
I've never watched.
I've seen him live, but I'venever like watched interviews
with him.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
I was going to say if it's not proof of the
simulation, at the same timethat you've got Oasis reforming,
you've got Jane's Addictionbreaking down on stage.
It's like what is happening.
It's so weird it was.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
It was weird, but you know what?
That was just a random thingthat came to my mind.
I think the reason why I wantedto share it was because, photon
John, you always talk aboutlike you were the weird kid or
something like that, but then,for some reason, you'd always
talk about smashing pumpkins,how you would always connect
with people.
You know what I mean.

(58:54):
So I was like oh hang on Jane'saddiction, you know yeah yeah,
music got me through a lot ofthat with this.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
This is oh hang on jade's addiction, you know yeah,
yeah yeah, this is anotherthing that I'd do if I ever was
doing a phd.
It would be trying to uncoverthe music genres that people
relate to the most, asundiagnosed adhd sapphires, as
children, because I find so manypeople that I connect.

(59:20):
We all like the same bands, weall like the same type of music,
not necessarily exactly thesame, but the fundamentals of
what the music did was universal, and what I found was I was
always into music that had veryclear rhythmic or polyrhythmic
elements to it, with big drums,big bass, because that was where

(59:41):
I would orient myself in music.
I would put music on for daysbecause, again, it was my other
way to shut things out.
So I was always attracted tomusic like that.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
I don't know if my view is skewed because I listen
to alternative music, but Ifound most of my neurodivergent
friends were drawn toalternative style music not
everyone, but I think that couldbe, I know, for me, when I
discovered Smashing Pumpkins, itwas that Melancholy and the
Infinite Sadness album whereit's like 28 songs and they're
all completely different fromeach other and he's singing

(01:00:11):
about being alone and weird andblah, blah, blah and I'm just
like, oh my God, it's my person,it's my people, this is my
crowd.
You know, it did a lot for me.
That was Tool for me.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
So Tool was the album .

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Well, yeah, Tool Tool , definitely Tool.
You know, Korn, rage Againstthe Machine, that were just it
was, I think.
For me it was like aggression.
I loved the aggression type ofthing.
Yeah, I was more into thosebands.
But then I went into say more,you know more.

(01:00:44):
I wouldn't say SmashingFunctions are melodic, but like
that more grungy sort.
I sort of got into grunge afterthe grunge era if that makes
sense, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
It was like I got straight intoheavy metal, a little bit of
hip-hop like Beastie Boys andstuff like that, and then sort

(01:01:06):
of went into a more melodic typeof stuff.
Now I can't listen to like theheavy stuff as much anymore.
It's like it's just too hardfor my brain.
I need that softer stuff.
But there are times where I'mlike you know what I feel like
hate breed today.
You know what I mean, and thenpump that crap.
You know, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
But um nah, all cool, the first time I ever saw hate
breed will was by accident.
I was at a sound wave show andI walked into.
They were playing like a littlebooth down the back or whatever
.
And I walked into this thingand I'm like what the hell is
going on here?
People were all over the joint,man jumping from the roof and
off speaker stacks and likethere was circle pits and this

(01:01:51):
is too much for me.
I had to get out of it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Do you know what?
Do you know what?
I remember going to a big dayout years ago and the White
Stripes were there and they wereon this like little small stage
right Then the next year theywere headlining Do you know what
I mean it was like I saw themin this little room there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
I had the same experience with Muse.
I saw them as a three-piece ona tiny side stage at like the
very last Livid Festival in theyear 2000.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Oh wow, that would have been interesting to see
what were they like back then.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
They were just a band .
You know none of the bigfireworks or anything.
They only had their first albumout.
It was awesome.
It's still a great memory.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Yeah, that's awesome, that's awesome.
But hey, you know, if, ifanyone wants to connect with you
or find out more about thestuff you know, your podcast,
all of that, where can peopleconnect with all your awesome
stuff?

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
yeah, so you can connect with me on probably
linkedin youtube.
Um, I don't do many of theother socials.
I'm pretty non-social in socialmedia, but if you just give
Mike Island a search in Google,you'll find a bunch of ways to
get in touch with me, and that'sactually spelled M-Y-K-E,

(01:03:10):
correct.
M-y-k-e correct.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
M-Y-K-E is Mike.

Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
Island.
So LinkedIn is Mike Island,YouTube is Mike Island.
But yeah, you can find a bunchof ways to get in touch with me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
Yeah, cool, cool, cool.
Mike, thank you so much forcoming on today.
It's been so awesome to youknow, listen to your story,
being able to relate to a lot ofthings about your story as well
.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
I think I think that's tripped off how we
finished off with music there,never really done something like
that before Probably do anotherhour just about that.
One day Will.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally.
But no, no, it's good, but youknow what?
That's what I love aboutpodcasts you can just do
whatever you want and that's apodcast, you know.
You don't have to be formallike all of that type of stuff.
It's just a chat.
You don't have to be formallike all of that type of stuff.
It's just the chat, you know.

(01:04:03):
But no, look, thank you so muchfor coming on and we really
appreciate it, my man.

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
Yeah, I love being part of it.
Thanks so much for reaching outAgain.
We broke the world record todayfor the first ever guest.
There we go, man.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
I'm glad to be a part of that, but look for all of
our listeners out there to be apart of that, but look for all
of our listeners out there.
If you haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and
follow all of our social mediaplatforms and check us out on
any podcasting platform.
My name's Will Wheeler, joinwith my main man, fodon John,
and this is Neurodivergent Mates.
Until next time, you.