Redefining Work: Neurodiversity’s Evolution - Vicky Little

Send us a text

On this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, I’m excited to sit down with Vicky Little, Chief Operating Officer at Specialisterne Australia! With over 17 years of experience in autism and neurodivergent employment across Australia and the UK, Vicky is a passionate disability trainer and advocate who’s transforming how organisations engage with neurodivergent talent.

From developing autism-specific transition programs at the National Autistic Society in London to launching NSW’s first autism-specific employment service, Aspect Capable, Vicky’s journey is both inspiring and impactful. Now, at Specialisterne Australia, she’s leading efforts to create alternative recruitment pathways, helping businesses unlock the unique strengths of autistic individuals and embrace the autism advantage.


Questions:

1.   Can you start by sharing a bit about yourself and your journey?
2.   What was your experience like receiving a late diagnosis, and how has it shaped you?
3.   Tell us about the work you’re doing now and what drives your passion.
4.   In your view, how has the conversation around Neurodiversity evolved over the years?
5.   What are some of the challenges you’ve encountered along the way?
6.   On the flip side, what have been some of the most positive or rewarding experiences for you?
7.   What do you think needs to happen next in the Neurodiversity employment space?
8.   Finally, how can our listeners connect with you and learn more about your work?

✨ If you're passionate about building inclusive workplaces or want to learn how to better support neurodivergent talent, this episode is for you!

🎧 Tune in now and join the conversation!

#NeurodivergentMates #Neurodiversity #InclusiveWorkplaces #AutismAdvantage #SpecialisterneAustralia #NeurodivergentTalent #DiversityAndInclusion #Podcast

Please be sure to subscribe, like and follow all our social media platforms.

Click on our Linktree link provided below to access all of our social media platforms:

https://linktr.ee/openheartedapp?fbclid=IwAR3Mk3FNMMbC4_EwZaHwzHNgugWNL4Pnm7dANcrcEMKRKXfYFN5SPGgSGcU

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Neurodivergent Mates.

(00:25):
I'm your host, will Wheeler,and today I'm joined with my
good friend Vicky Little Vicky.
What's going on, my friend?

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hey, will, thanks for having me.
It's good to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, no problem at all.
No problem, obviously we're afew weeks late.
We were supposed to come on afew weeks ago, but unfortunately
Vicky was unwell.
But are you feeling better now?

Speaker 2 (00:48):
That's the main thing I am.
I'm so sorry about that.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yes, no, no no, oh cool, it's happening.
You're looking well.
You're looking well.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Thank you I have kids , and so you regularly pick up
the loggies that go around.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy.
But yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy.
But no, no, all good, but look,really cool stuff that we're
going to be covering today.
So we're going to be talkingabout redefining work and
neurodiversity's evolution.
I think, you know, especiallywhen you and I have sat down in
the past Vicky, you know you'vebeen doing this longer than me.
You're like one of the pioneersright here, right and um, but

(01:26):
like, but, I think, um, you know, uh, it's interesting when I,
when I sat down with you lastand you did speak about how, um,
you know, so many things havechanged, how you know, you were
talking to a lot of people inthe past there who had really no
idea about what neurodiversityis and all of that.

(01:46):
But now, you know, we're reallyat, I suppose, a place where
it's just completely changingand evolving, which is good, but
it is definitely interesting tosee all the stuff there.
But look, before we do get intothings, I might just do a bit of
a shout out for anyone whohasn't listened to us before.
So if you haven't already doneso, please subscribe, like and

(02:08):
follow to all of our socialmedia pages.
We're available on TikTok,facebook, instagram X, twitch,
youtube and LinkedIn, and also,too.
You can subscribe to us.
Rate us.
Do whatever you want to do onanywhere you listen to your
podcast.
Another big shout-out toNeurodiversity Academy.
Whatever you want to do onanywhere you listen to your
podcast.
Another big shout-out toNeurodiversity Academy.
If you want to check us out, goto neurodiversityacademycom.

(02:31):
We've got some really coolstuff happening there.
Subscribe to our emailing listand, honestly, there's going to
be some really cool stuff comingout there shortly, so please
don't miss out.
But I'll do a little bit of awarning, like I always do.
Look, some discussions may betriggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call

(02:52):
emergency services.
We are not doctors.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and strategies.
Now, last of all, if you dohave some questions, please if
you're watching this through thelive version of the podcast
just put them into the.
You do have some questions?
Please, if you're watching thisthrough the live version of the
podcast, just put them into thecomments If you're on Facebook,
linkedin, youtube, whereveryou're at, and we should be able

(03:13):
to answer them.
What do you reckon, vicky?
You ready to rock and roll, myfriend?

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Ready to rock and roll?
Let's do it.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
You're born ready, you know.
All right, cool, cool, cool,cool cool.
So let's get stuck into this.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
You know the first and always the one I always go
on about.
So, look, share us a little bitabout yourself.
Great, yeah.
So look, I think it's best sortof spoken about from the
perspective of my career and thejourney and what's taken me in
this space and what you knowthat will lead into sort of what
I've seen so far.

(03:45):
And so I guess, my start of mycareer.
I studied psychology atuniversity and from that I was
really knowing that I wanted towork with people who you know
were experiencing significantbarriers, you know, in all walks
of life.
I worked with young autistickids at the time and you know,

(04:06):
that kind of then led into, youknow, opened my eyes, and so I
was in the UK.
I moved to the UK after Ifinished studying and it was
there that I was sort of reallyconnected with.
Okay.
So you know there's somethingthat needs to be done here in
terms of supporting autisticpeople to move into the world of

(04:28):
work where they're valued andthey're seen and their strengths
are identified.
And so I started working.
I was lucky enough to get a jobworking at the National
Autistic Society.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Sorry, can I ask sorry to cut you off?
What year was that around?
Just out of curiosity.
So people have a bit ofperspective of like whoa, that's
changed a hell of a lot thankyou.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
It's a good point.
Thank you, and please dointerrupt if I miss details like
that.
That's helpful no, no, it's allgood it was 2006, um, so, yeah,
so we're coming up to sort of 19years ago and so, um, I got
yeah, I was lucky to get thisjob at the national autistic
society it was called prospectswhich is their employment
service.
So so you can imagine, yeah,2006, where things were at.
We would, you know very muchabout transitioning to

(05:10):
employment, helping job seekersfind work, training employers,
and I remember literally havingto cold call employers and tell
them what autism is and that itis not just a childhood
condition, it is, you know,across the lifespan.
So that was the level ofunderstanding that we were sort
of, you know, tackling at thattime.

(05:31):
But it was a really excitingtime in the space because we did
see, you know, the movementstarted to take hold.
So we started to work with bigorganisations like Goldman Sachs
and BT and other you know,massive organisations that
started to see the value thatautistic individuals can bring
to the workplace, and so thatwas the start of those sorts of
big form recruitment programs, Isuppose, and it was a really

(05:53):
exciting time.
It was just an amazing job,amazing team.
There's still lots of peopleyou know that I worked with then
that are doing amazing work inthis space.
So it was really pivotal.
And then I returned toAustralia after five years in
the UK.
Wow, crazy and interesting was.
What was interesting is that Inoticed that we were kind of
behind here in Australia.

(06:13):
So we'd made all this progressin London and we, you know I
returned to kind of back towhere we started when I first
started working in 2006 inLondon.
So I kind of had to once againtake people on the journey of
understanding that autism is alifelong condition.
We've got talented individualswho are not able to access work,
not able to you know, use it.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Can I just ask something on that, right?
So just out of curiosity, whenyou're calling people and
explaining, you know, aboutautism, for example, what were
some of the responses you've got?
You got Because, like you said,you were having to explain some
of that stuff and, like you'reeven talking to us, you're like
no, it's not just the childhoodcondition.
What were some of the responsesthat you got.

(06:58):
Is that a curiosity?
If you want to share that?

Speaker 2 (07:01):
It's a great question because I mean obviously
everyone would be different.
Some want to share that.
It's a great.
It's a great question because Imean obviously everyone would
be different some people and acommon one was oh yeah, I have a
you know, insert relation hereniece, you know, nephew, sister,
brother, you know whatever, whois autistic, um, but they're
non-verbal so we can't hire youknow such.
So the misconception and thestereotypes was just, you know,

(07:22):
terrible, to be honest, becausepeople were thinking that
everybody, every, autisticperson.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
This is one thing.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yes, yeah, yeah and so the stereotypes which we
still are challenged by today,you know, were even more of a
barrier back then, as we know,which is why we do what we do.
But some people it would clickand they'd be like oh yeah, this
is really, you know, I want togive somebody a go, and then it
was by giving somebody a go thatthen, you know, obviously their
mindset would change and thenthey would see the talent and

(07:51):
see what this was about and whatwe're trying to do here.
So it really varied.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Wow, crazy.
But like what was it?
Oh sorry, you go.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
No, no, you had a question, Go go.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
Oh well, no, no, no, but I'm really bad.
I sometimes just throw thingsin because, like I don't know,
it just changes it up.
But, like you know, coming backto Australia after being in, I
suppose, the UK for so long, andoften, you know, I think within
the neurodiversity community,we often look at the UK as the

(08:23):
leaders in this field, type ofthing what was that like?
Coming back to Australia andthen coming back to like almost
probably close to nothing inplace at that point of time?

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Look it was.
It just became quite clear thatI needed to do something,
because there was just nothing,and it was really.
I literally got back and I justemailed everyone who was doing
anything in this space to seewhat they're doing, to see how
we can work together, and I setup my own business.
Um, and so, similar to you,will I, you know, I had another
job.
I was working in disabilityservices at Sydney University.

(08:58):
That was a three-day-a-week joband for the rest of my time, as
you, you do, I was running myown business.
So I was supporting, I wasmentoring job seekers to find
work, I was training employersbecause it just didn't exist and
so it was.
You know, it was real advocacywork.
It was really important that ithappened and it was connecting
with everyone in the space andreally starting the conversation

(09:19):
and bringing what we'd donefrom the UK to Australia because
, as you say, you know, we wereleading the way in a lot of ways
, and it was, you know, it wasreally exciting to see, you know
, what we could do once westarted that conversation.
It was slow, obviously, andwe're still, you know, moving at
different paces, but I candefinitely attest to, you know,

(09:42):
things started to change in thatspace.
We could see the employersstart to go oh okay, this is
really awesome.
But then what happened withthat business is then I went and
worked at Autism SpectrumAustralia, at Aspect, and built
their employment service there,which was really exciting.
So that business then becamethe grounds of what was Aspect's
employment service.
So that was really exciting.

(10:03):
That had business then becamethe grounds of what was Aspect's
employment service.
So that was really exciting.
That had never been done before.
That was the first time they'dsupported in the employment
space, and so then obviouslythat gave us way more kind of
capacity to reach employers andget funding and to you know, to
really make change because ofyou know for those who don't

(10:24):
know, aspect is one of theleading, I suppose.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
Autism.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
I never realised until, like because we've got
like one of our advisory members, katie Pleat is on our advisory
board and I never realised.
Aspect is like a school.
Yes, they have schools.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yes.
So Aspect is well known for itseducation side of things.
Incredible incredible schoolsthat they run, but they just
never moved into much of adultspace beyond community services,
and so this was a reallyexciting time.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
And so.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
I did that for a few years and then moved across to
Specialist Earn and I've beenworking for Specialist Earn now
for seven or eight years.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, that's right, Wow there you go, hey, so I just
want to step in for a sec.
So we've got Carlos Rodriguez,so Carlos has actually been on
the show before and he's aregular here.
Carlos, how's it going?
My friend, Awesome to hear fromyou Now.
He just wanted to ask the US iseven further behind why, in
your opinion Hopefully that'snot who you are.

(11:32):
You might see it from adifferent opinion.
It's a big question Actually.
No, they're not.
They're actually doing somegreat stuff.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
This is a big question, obviously topical
right now, so we won't get intopolitics, but we will just
reflect on the question ingeneral.
So Specialist Anne has anoffice in North America, both in
the States and in Canada, andyou know we really see some
large organisations doing somereally great things.
But you know, and obviously onthe flip side, we still see

(12:04):
those same sort of challengesdue to perhaps um budget or um,
uh, you know, internalchallenges to try and get, you
know, approvals over the line,um, and also, I think obviously
not speaking from experience forliving in america, but what I
do know is that the each stateis so, um, it's almost like a

(12:26):
different country right in each,in each.
I mean, you can you?

Speaker 1 (12:29):
can answer that.
It's almost similar to here,right?

Speaker 2 (12:34):
well, yeah, in some ways, but even more disparate.
I think you know each state hasjust such separate ways of
working and it's hard for themto you know anyway.
So I think that's what's spokenabout is one of the challenges.
But also globally, in everycountry, it's lack of
understanding, lack of awarenessfrom both organizational level
and, you know, at a managerlevel.
So we see that across allcountries.

(12:54):
Um, you know, and that's whatwe're trying to trying to tackle
, nah cool, cool, cool cool.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
So you know, moving on from that, what's your
experience like?
So you know, when we caught up,uh, you know, a while ago,
there we were speaking about alittle bit of your um journey so
far and um you were sharingwith us that you received.
You know you, you've recentlybeen diagnosed um with adhd and
you know you even said toyourself you're like I was so

(13:22):
surprised, or why didn't I pickup on this earlier, especially
working in this space, all ofthat.
So you know what's yourexperience been like receiving a
late diagnosis and how has itshaped you?

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Great, Great question .
So, yes, it's been a reallyinteresting process.
I'd say, you know, we'rereflecting on the fact that I've
been working in this space forcoming up to 19 years or so and
I'd say it's been in the lastfive years or so that it's
really kind of unravelled for mein terms of understanding that
I have ADHD and if you thinkabout what was happening five

(13:59):
years ago, which is scary tothink actually, but this was
COVID, you know 2020.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
And so I know that's five years ago.
It blows my mind, isn't it?
I know man, it feels like itwas just yesterday.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, I know.
And so, look, I think, for alot of women in particular, we
have systems in place and youknow, we may not know we have
them, but they're copingmechanisms, they're routine,
they're to-do lists, they're youknow, there's this concept of
body doubling, which I knewabout, but I didn't know that I
was, you know, needing that,which is basically that you know
, when you're spending time orthere's other people around you,

(14:34):
you're more likely to be ableto initiate tasks or move
through procrastinationchallenges, you know or to get
something done.
And so we have all thosesystems in place.
And then COVID lockdowns meantthat all of us you know, that
was all it all fell away.
So I think we're all put inthis place of, oh my gosh, you
know, now I have to reinventmyself and find out how to cope.

(14:54):
And a lot of awareness wasraised during that time because
a lot of adults was, you know,starting to unravel and realize
that they have adhd themselves.
And, like I said, that's for alot of women, I think.
And so for me, I think I cannow see that, on reflection,
with the diagnosis, that many ofthe traits that I thought was
just part of my personality isactually signs of adhd.

(15:15):
So I've obviously I've alwaysbeen honest and outspoken and
that's made me a strong advocate.
I'm like my brain is alwaysfeels like there's a million
tabs open I think that's justthe best way to describe it and
it's why I appear distractedbecause of all the you know the
busy brain.
Um, I have a home full of doompiles and that's just unfinished

(15:36):
tasks and unfinished projects,but this is all you know hidden
stuff.
People aren't seeing this right.
So, um, obviously you know myfor me, I struggle with
attention to detail, which isnot a true for a lot of ad for
some adhd's, but for me, so doyou.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
So do you like, miss, like little things I say you'll
send an email and then you'llbe like, oh my god, I didn't
realize that I had this spellingmistake there, I've read it
twice.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
I've read it twice and it's still wrong, you know
yeah yeah, mostly in big piecesof work, like not you know small
things, but if there's just youknow who's got time for that in
, you know I'm in jest but likemy brain is just let's move on
to the next thing, whereas a lotof people thrive in moving
through methodically and readingthe detail and making sure that

(16:21):
it's correct, and I need andthis is where teamwork is so
important I've got amazing teammembers who have outstanding
attention to detail, so I leanon them for help with that.
I have experienced overwhelmand burnout.
You know we were speaking aboutthis before and I think you
know I didn't realise that thatwas part of it.
I just thought that was part ofme, but that's definitely a
common sign, I suppose, of ADHDor a symptom.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
And common um sign, I suppose, of adhd or a symptom,
and I and I think it's so, soand sorry just for all of our
listeners.
So before we did come on likewe always come on like 15
minutes early to talk about,like um, just to make sure, sure
, everything's working.
But what we were talking aboutwas that, you know, especially
for myself, um, let's say I,let's say I get off this um uh
podcast here afterwards and I gosit on the couch and watch

(17:10):
netflix for me in my head I'mthinking, man, what I'm lazy I.
I need to be doing something.
Man, everyone's gonna think I'ma slob.
You know, is that what you weresort of going through like man,
man, I need?
Or what I've also found as well, is that when I don't have that
work there or something tooccupy me, I do struggle with my

(17:34):
depression and stuff like that.
You know, I'm like like I needsomething to distract me.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting and I think
everyone's different.
I definitely think I used to belike that Will Like, and I
think I think everyone'sdifferent.
I definitely think I used to belike that, well, like, I
definitely used to be just allgo like, you know, thinking
about that, owning a businessand having another job and and
you know the push to make changehere in Australia that you know
I definitely experiencedburnout and the doctors called
it adrenal fatigue, but you knowit was just me burning out, um.

(18:06):
It was nice, you know, to havea label, I suppose, but actually
in hindsight now it was adhd umand I've actually had to learn
as a result.
So one of my strategies now ismaking sure that I have downtime
.
So, you know, whatever thatlooks like for each person is
different, but for me it's justmaking sure that I schedule that
in, because if I don't, thenyeah, I will just continue I'll

(18:27):
go for a ride, so probably.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
So I've got like another meeting after this, but
I'll probably go for a ride onmy bike, like afterwards type of
thing, and I think that sort ofwinds me down type of thing,
that's it there you go likeeveryone's different and I think
that's you know, and that's areally healthy way actually to
manage so well.
But but what about what it was?

(18:50):
What about eating?
Like I know that I used tostruggle a lot with um because
I'd be like, so busy I'm like,oh my god, I haven't even.
I haven't even made dinnerstuff at mcdonald's across the
road.
I'll go and eat something crap,you know.
Or I'm traveling for work, I'lljust eat something crap.
But now I've really changed howI, how I eat and I found that's

(19:13):
really worked for me yeah, Ithink you know I've heard
different sides and everyone'sdifferent once again.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
but, um, you know you can either people forget to eat
if you have ADHD or, like forme, it was actually more that it
over-consumed my thinking tothe point where it was just like
it's exhausting how much I'mthinking about food and I don't
know if that's more of a femaletrait.
To be honest, you know, this isjust my experience.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
Or water.
Forget to drink water.
Yes, forget to drink water.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yes, absolutely.
It depends on the zone thatyou're in, I think oh yeah, you
know what I mean if it's acooler day.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Sometimes I'm like I don't feel like water.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
But it's like man, I need to have water yes oh yeah
and there's lots of cool appsnow where people get reminders
to drink water like there'sreally cool stuff around to help
this sort of stuff it'sactually I'll say you go I was
just gonna say, like you know,in line with that was also I
didn't realize I was havingsensory overstimulation, like

(20:15):
you know, take me to a loudsupermarket or a bright
supermarket.
Lots of noise, those brightlights on those new vehicles.
What is with the bright lightson those vehicles that are just
like and I seem to be the onlyone that was like- Sorry.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Which vehicles are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (20:33):
You know, just cars that have these really intense
lights.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Oh, like the.
I think it's like the LEDthey've got LED lights in them,
Like they're the newer modelsand they're like fully bright,
and it's like yeah, yeah, yeah,I think that's what you're
talking about.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So for me, look, you know, onceagain, and it can be very mild,
it's not, you know, significant, but I can now see how that
would affect my executivefunctioning and I would just
avoid things that involve that.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
So you really struggle with the shops?
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (21:05):
I've never been a big fan of shopping.
Oh, I struggle with the shops.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, I've never been a big fan of shopping and I'm
now wondering whether that'sjust because it's a land that I
don't want to go, but you knowwhat, right, like what I used to
find was like, and I didn'trealize it until I got diagnosed

(21:28):
and I'm like, oh, that wasprobably that that when I would
go to the shops and it'sincreasingly busy, even like the
car park, where you can't finda car park, why am I even here?
You know little things likethat.
It's just so much going on thatnow I've sort of gone.
Okay, well, I'm going to uhorder my um shopping, uh, that I
just pick it up from you know,like woolworth's drop pick up

(21:50):
and whatever it's called, right?
pick it up and then I'll be outof there right, or I'll go when
it's quiet and no one can annoythe crap out of me.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, I think you just kind of learn ways that
work for you and, once again,thanks to COVID, there's so many
other ways now to access thingslike, whereas before it was,
you know, not as flexible I'mcurious as well, like do you
crave social?

Speaker 1 (22:15):
like?
What I've found is I reallycrave social interaction.
Like I feel like I like don'tget me wrong, there's sometimes
where I need that quiet time,but then I'm like man, I really
want to just go and hang outwith some people or go and
network.
Yes, chat with Vicky on thephone yes.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
I'm not going to do that much.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, I'm exactly the same.
I do crave that and I thinkjust being around other people
that's been sort of, yeah,definitely a downside of the
COVID situation.
Obviously, we all were stuckfor a while, but you know, even
now moving forward.
You know working from home andso every now and then it would

(22:55):
just be nice to kind of be in aspace with other people and to
workshop and to talkface-to-face.
And I think I replace that nowwith sometimes I just go and
work in a cafe, because it's thesame for me, Like it's just
being around the buzz of otherpeople or just being around that
and it's like a low-level noisethat is really helpful.
And this is that body doublingthing I get so much done working

(23:18):
in that space and you know,that could be the opposite for
some people.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Sorry, do you know how to pronounce this person's
name here, vicky?
I'm sorry if we can't pronounceit Sianaboo a?
It's a hell of a lot of right,but thank you so much for
sharing this.
It says I'm still too scared toget diagnosed and find out.
Um, if indeed, yes, I have adhdor something else, but there is
so much being said here that Ican really relate to.

(23:52):
Three of my sisters also havesimilar issues.
All the others are okay.
We call it our dad trait, goodold dad.
We talk to each other about itand then we convince each other
it's not adhd and we try to moveon until it gets overwhelming

(24:16):
again well thank you so much forsharing that.
You know I I think probably onthat, you know, and this is it's
each individual's um choice towant to get diagnosed and all of
that.
But thank you so much forsharing that, and I think it was

(24:36):
once I was starting to hangaround other people who were
ADHD and all that.
That's what really helped me togo.
You know what?
I think I am going to getdiagnosed Because I didn't even
realise I was at first.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, yeah, each journey is different.
I was really motivated to getit just last year because it was
reaching that point where, um,I just needed to know if the way
my brain was working was, youknow, because this is the work
that we do, and I could just seemyself in so many um of the you

(25:09):
know, the conversations we'rehaving and the and the wonderful
people that we support intointo work, and so, and I think,
just like I said, yeah, theCOVID unravelling and also
another thing that happened andyou know I don't know if this is
kind of spoken about a lot, butduring COVID lockdown in 2021,
my darling dad passed away, andso there was a significant
period of loss and and grief andand lots of and then sort of

(25:32):
you know, a series of lossaround that time.
That then meant that I justlost all my like coping
mechanisms.
And it's interesting how thatkind of profound loss can then
lead to really the overspilling.
Of ADHD occurred, I suppose,because I was just feeling Well.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
I totally agree with you there.
What I found, I was on my ownall the time, you know, and I
felt I, I had lost, my cousin,had passed away over that period
.
Um, you know, and I think, justthe fact that you know, I, I,
it was like I didn't even havethe energy to say you know what
I'm gonna message vicky, forexample, and energy to say you

(26:12):
know what I'm going to messageVicky, for example, and have a
chat.
Do you know what I mean?
Because it felt like I don'tknow.
Well, to tell you the truth, Iwas waking up like late in the
afternoon because I was out ofwork.
I wasn't working, you know.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
So you know what I mean and like I just fully lost
control, and it took me a goodsix months to get over it, once
we got out of that lockdown.
Yep, yep, yep under yep cantotally empathize with
everything you're saying andthat's you know, it's, it's that
impact of covid initial impact,and then it's the you know,
it's the constant and people arestill processing and working

(26:47):
through all of that because oflife scary.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
It's like man.
I hope we don't go back that Idon't want to have to go back
through that yeah no, yeah, it'sforever changed, you know
humans, hasn't it?

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Totally, yeah, and I think the thing that I sort of
learned during that time as wellabout you know, it became
really clear was about myprocessing style.
So I never thought much aboutit.
But now I, that time I'vereally learned about my need to
move in order to help myprocessing.
So I became a huge advocate forwalking meetings.

(27:21):
During COVID I was the walkingmeeting guru, so there was at
least one a day.
I just needed to get outbecause that might have been my
only time out of the house, andI now have realized that I just
need like that.
Movement is where I work best.
And so now I have a standingdesk and I have a treadmill
under my desk and I just don'tremember the last time I sat
down.
To be honest, I'm always andyeah, I didn't realize that

(27:43):
that's.
That's so part of my way ofthinking.
I will um verbal instructions,I might miss key details, and
I'm definitely known forspeaking uh without thinking
sometimes, and so it, you knowthat that's.
I know that now that's how mybrain is working, and so I am
consciously it's all right ifyou, if you've blurt out

(28:03):
something, can it's in a prepwe're in a safe space, aren't we
so?

Speaker 1 (28:08):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
We've just got thousands ofpeople listening to us right now
so, um, yeah, it's just areally interesting experience
yeah, totally, totally, totally.
But look, moving on from that,tell us about the work you're
doing now and what drives yourpassion.
So you shared a little bitabout that before, but I think a
big thing and why I was likeman, let's get you on, was that

(28:31):
you know, I think was, um, thework that you're currently doing
.
It has changed a little bit andyou really wanted to share that
.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, yeah, thank you .
It's a really importantquestion because at Specialist
Stern we're doing some reallycool things and I think you know
, I think sometimes we've beenstuck in people's minds as just
doing recruitment and onlyworking with IT organisations or
to help people find IT roles.

(28:58):
So nothing could be furtherfrom the truth.
It's almost like you know,we're an actor that's been kind
of profiled to be only workingin romantic movies.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
A western, yeah, a romantic movie or a comedy or
something.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
No, but you know, at Specialist Zone, obviously,
that's, I think, because we hadsuch.
I mean, you know, if we reflectback to when we first opened
here in Australia 2015, 2016,and then, you know, beyond we
had such great success inrunning these hiring initiatives
.
That was initially for autisticindividuals, and now we've

(29:33):
opened up to all um,neurodivergence and so.
But back then it was likegroundbreaking, and it was.
This was the stuff that wasthen taking australia into where
the uk was, you know.
So it was.
This is the stuff that made thenews.
This is the stuff that madebusinesses go hang on a second.
What are we missing out on ifwe're not doing this?
And so, you know, that's why Ithink we've kind of been stuck
in that because of, you know,the name that we made for

(29:56):
ourselves in that time.
But since then, I mean, wereally want to be seen as almost
like trusted advisors toemployers, to help connect
employers to meaning, you know,to skilled talent in the
neurodiverse community, andthat's, you know, that's our job
.
So it's skilling up theemployers to be better in terms
of inclusion and understandingand making the changes that need

(30:21):
to be made across the board tomake their workplaces more
neuroinclusive and, obviously,making recruitment more
neuroinclusive.
But we've definitely moved wellbeyond the recruitment.
We're finding that we're doinga lot more work in everything to
do with creatingneuro-inclusive workplaces.
So it's, you know, training, alot of leadership training,
because for me, I believe that'sthe key to success in terms of

(30:44):
building neuro-inclusiveworkplaces.
It's the manager right, like agood manager, an understanding
manager will be the one that cannot only create a safe and
understanding place for theirneurodivergent employees, but
change the culture of the teamand make that a fostered, foster
a culture of inclusion, um andunderstanding goes a huge way.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Do you know what I mean?
Because I think that what I'veseen and the problems I've seen
in the past, is that becauseI've had people reach out to me
and go, oh look, we, we've gotDavid here who's really
struggling.
You know, we're thinking aboutwe're going to have to fire him
shortly and it's like, well,hang on, let's find out what's
going on with David.
And then they're telling me allthese bad things about David.

(31:26):
But then I speak to David andthink David's really good,
what's going on?
What's the manager doing?
Think david's really good,what's going on?
What's the manager doing?
What's the leadership teamdoing?
And then you find out that allthe problems are in the
leadership team there.
Yeah, so I'm just sort of goingon from what you're talking
about.
Why?

Speaker 2 (31:44):
it's so important so in regards to management and
leadership yeah, I've alwayssaid that the strongest
indicator of success of aneurodivergent employee is an
understanding manager.
And you know a lot of sort ofmanagers sort of think, well,
that's a lot of pressure, butactually it doesn't cost
anything extra to beunderstanding and empathetic.
It doesn't?
You know, it's about goodcommunication and good

(32:07):
management and you know thoseare the skills that you'd want
to be having anyway as a manager.
So it's about getting better atthat, so that you're supporting
all your employees.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
But it's like planning right and I was
speaking because I help peoplelike get their business plans
and that ready for, like youknow, for their businesses and
all of that type of stuff rightand it's like if you create,
like if you start a businesswithout a business plan, for
example, you've got no directionand everyone else around you

(32:38):
has got no direction right.
But if you've got some type ofyou know direction plan of how
you're able to support not onlyjust your neurodivergent people
but everyone there, right, it'sgoing to be a lot less stress,
it's going to be easier for you.
But trying to get that acrossto people sometimes is very

(32:59):
difficult.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah, and I think I mean one of the questions is
about the challenges actually,so we'll probably come back to
that, but it's definitely it'sdismissed as not a priority, and
that's where we're goingcompletely wrong.
You know a lot of people,leaders, leadership teams and
executives know it's a priorityand and do put things in place
to make sure that we'refostering that, that culture of

(33:20):
neuro can I give you an example?

Speaker 1 (33:22):
yeah so, not long ago I was, um, doing some work for
a company.
The management team keptputting off the neurodiversity
training, all of that.
All of these staff were comingin who were employed for this
company as part of some program,right, and, um, you know, I'm

(33:43):
sitting there thinking thesepeople keep flogging, keep
telling us to put off thetraining.
They're not going to, uh,because they're too busy and all
of that.
And I'm like you know, shit'sgonna kick off shortly,
something's gonna go wrong, andit's to, because they're too
busy and all of that.
And I'm like you know, shit'sgoing to kick off shortly,
something's going to go wrong,and they're going to have a go
at me, sure enough.
And I even told my manager.
I said, look, this is going tohappen.
And I said, when it happens,you wait, you watch.

(34:05):
Yep, sure enough, it happened.
And that day I pretty much wentsee you later.
I'm out of here much went seeus later.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
I'm out of here, you know, because I'm like it's like
okay, well, if we're not goingto support this or give us the
opportunity to be able to, tomake these changes not
necessarily huge changes or morejust training and learning what
am I even here for you knowwhat I mean yeah, 100,
absolutely, it's key and youknow, I think, think we're in
Australia, we're in that sort ofa lot of organisations are

(34:37):
building their capacity ineducation, but there's, you know
, so much more that we need todo and so you know, in terms of
the other stuff that SpecialistZone does.
So one of our key services and alot of people don't know this,
I think is workplace coachingand support.
So you know, we have a team ofamazing neurodiversity coaches
and, um, many of them have livedexperience and they, um, they

(34:58):
are the, the key, they are that.
You know, I think one of themost highly valued workplace
adjustments and supportstrategies is having a coach, um
, and you know it's thatexternal coach who's not in the
business, who's not in the weedsand can see things from a
different perspective the theoutside, yeah, totally.
Yeah, and offers that from a youknow, neurodiversity expertise
kind of thing.

(35:18):
But the key difference for usis that we're just not coaching
the employee, because that's weneed to be coaching the manager
as well.
Right, because the manager isalso going on a journey of
understanding neurodiversity,which is what we were saying
before about education being key.
It's okay so how can I supportthis individual?
How can I, you know, give themthe best tools to succeed?

(35:39):
And so the coaching is onlybest done when it's for both.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Well, you know what and you know what we're doing
with Neurodiversity Academy, andthe biggest thing there is that
it starts with thatorganization.
We need to make sure thatorganization has the right tools
.
Understanding at least basicunderstanding it can be, and
they can grow from there.
I believe, um, because if wejust go, hey look, we've got

(36:05):
some neurodivergent students whowant to study at your college
or university and they're likeyeah, yeah, all right, they're
gonna fail these people, but ifwe help the people who are
helping the people, who are thestudents, for example, they
should succeed, if they're youknow.
So, yeah, no, totally agreeexactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
And you know, as a manager myself, if I was able to
get access some additionalcoaching in a particular area
that I just needed to, it'sgonna.
It boosts your skills, not onlysupporting that employee but
supporting all your employees,because the skills that you
learn are going to helpeverybody.
You know and we hear this timeand time again from managers is
that it's just, you know, onceagain, it goes back to being
just good practice and it helpsthem to be more empathetic, more

(36:46):
patient, more understanding,and you know that's just good
for everybody.
And then the final thing thatwe do a lot of now is, like I
said, you know we are trustedadvisors.
We're here to partner withorganisations to take them on
the journey in terms ofachieving their goals, whatever
it might be, to becomingneuro-inclusive workplaces.
So it's things like assessing,you know, your maturity for

(37:07):
where you're at in terms ofneuro-inclusion and diversity
and inclusion in general, andgiving feedback and
recommendations about what to doand supporting them in that
journey all the way through.
That you know, do you?

Speaker 1 (37:18):
collect data on like stuff like that?
Are you able to go?
Hey look, from implementingthis, we've been able to see
that you are now.
So do you have that type ofstuff in place?
Out of curiosity?

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, we're starting to build that kind of data.
This is all new really, youknow so we're definitely going
to put that sort of baseline.
We're going to start to buildthat baseline and then people
will be able to sort of reallysee where they're sitting, which
I think is, you know, can beenticing.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
It's valuable.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Yeah, that's right.
You know, yeah, so that'slargely what we do.
You know, we basically doeverything and we're here.
Our goal is to help one millionneurodivergent individuals find
meaningful careers, and we dothat through partnerships,
through partnering withemployers, through inspiring
other organisations to go and dotheir own recruitment, and it

(38:05):
has to be done via buildingthose neuroinclusive workplaces
first.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, totally, totally.
I suppose it's baby steps andyou know, the more we do it, the
better it will come.
But I think that actually rollsinto the next question.
Actually really well, so inyour view, how is the
conversation aroundneurodiversity evolved over the
years?

Speaker 2 (38:29):
That's yeah, and I guess we've kind of touched on
on this a little bit, but it's agood question, um, to dive
deeper in.
So you know, like I said, therewas very little understanding
when I first started working inthis space.
It really was a case of takingpeople on the journey right from
the beginning, um, but thoseprograms that we did in sort of
2006, 2007, 2008 were reallypaving the way.

(38:51):
And also, at the same time,torkel Sonner, who is the
thought leader behind SpecialistStern it's his, you know, he's
the founder of Specialist Stern.
He was in Denmark buildingSpecialist Stern at the time.
So Specialist Stern has beenaround for 20 years and so 2004
he started, you know, reallydemonstrating that autistic
talent could be matched tocertain skills, particularly in

(39:14):
IT.
Because back then, once again,we were taking people on a
journey to see the talent, andIT was the best way at the time
to show that.
But, like I said, we've movedbeyond just IT and we work with
people in every single industry,and then I think you know it
was that sort of movement.
From that we saw the changes inEurope at the time and, like I

(39:36):
said, we were a few years behindhere in Australia, and so we've
kind of brought Australia backup, I think, to where everybody
else is in the world.
I think we can see that around2019 and 2020, what we call the
neuroadvantage movement reallystarted to take hold.
So we started to talk moreabout neurodiversity as a whole,
as opposed to just autisticindividuals, you know, in

(39:59):
isolation.
But what we know now aboutautism is that it often exists
in conjunction with many othereurotypes.
Yeah, that's right.
So the intersectionality is socommon.
So I'm so glad that we've, youknow, moved beyond and we're
broadening our understanding.
I love the word neurodiversitybecause to me it's a celebratory
word and it's celebrating thehuman experience and how diverse

(40:22):
we all are and how wonderfulthat is and how we need that
diversity for everyone to bringvalue to organizations, you know
, and so, um, I think we're nowseeing that we're now the shift
for me, I suppose, was when westopped.
You know, we we've always kindof cold called and chased
organizations and got peopleinvolved in that conversation,

(40:44):
but the flip was obviously whenorganizations started to call
more often call us.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, I want, I get it.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
I want in because I see the talent that we're
missing out on.
I see the barriers in ourrecruitment process.
I see we're not supporting thisincredible cohort of people.
What can we do?
And so that's been the shift.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Sorry, can I ask one thing on that right?
So I was actually speaking tosomeone about this the other day
.
You know how, like, we'reseeing over in the United States
how they're doing like a bigD&I cull, almost right.
What are your thoughts on that?
Because, like, and I'll sort ofsay myself to tell you the

(41:24):
truth, for me personally, I'mnot like, oh, that's so wrong
For me.
What I'm actually seeing andreading is that you know
organisations who want to, youknow, be inclusive and all that
are still going to be inclusive,but the ones that you know,
because I've seen some bigorganisations like Disney, for
example, they've pulled that.

(41:45):
I think they'd pulled out oftheir DE&I or cut it back or
something like that.
And you know, I think in a way,it's almost a good thing, and
I'm saying it in a positive way,because what we're going to
start seeing is theorganisations who truly do
support DE&I, for example,compared to ones who are just

(42:07):
doing it because they have to.
What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (42:12):
Oh, Will I have so many thoughts on this, but you
know we've only got a shortspace yeah, we only got about 15
minutes I obviously feel verypassionately about this because
you can see from what I've saidso far, this is you know, I'm so
passionate about this space but, I will say this I think I
agree that organizations whoalready know, like thankfully,
like said, this neurodiversitymovement took hold about five or

(42:34):
six years ago and thankfullywe're already there.
So, therefore, this kind ofconversation that's happening
over here won't impact theorganisations that are doing
good already and that know thatthey need to do it.
And you know, there's so manythat are out there that are just
going to continue on with theiragenda, regardless of the noise

(42:54):
that's being made.
Unfortunately, though, obviouslyyou know, there's this kind of
othering rhetoric which istaking place and that's damaging
, obviously, to the work thatpeople are doing in this space
and it minimises the incredibletalents and values that, yeah,

(43:14):
anyway the whole humanexperience the whole human race
brings, and so we in this spaceI know a lot of diversity and
inclusion advocates and neuroinclusion advocates, you know,
just charging forward, becausethere's been many times in
history, I suppose, where peoplehave tried to stop the work
that's happening here.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
It almost makes it more powerful In diversity in
general.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah, that's right and so it's actually just, you
know, I think, urged a lot ofpeople to kind of do more, and
we are so grateful to hearorganisations are saying you
know, we're moving forward withthis.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
And I think that's what I was sort of getting at
was you're going to find thatorganisations are going to go.
You know, because I'm prettysure you're the same, I don't
follow a crowd, you know.
I'm like, no, screw you, I'mgoing to do and I'm pretty sure
there's some big organisationsout there who probably are that
they're unique and all of thattype of stuff.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Correct are that they're unique and all of that
type of stuff correct?
Yeah, and that's whyspecialists don't?
You know?
We really we connect with thoseorganizations who who get it
and want to come on the journeyand those organizations will
continue, you know, especiallyin Australia, but we know
globally that, um, a lot oforganizations won't be deterred
by the noise that's happeningbut did you know what else I did
read?

Speaker 1 (44:30):
and I can't and look, I can't quote it or anything,
so I could be completely wrong,but they did say that.
Pardon me sorry.
They did say that.
Um, uh, there might be someparts of d and I that might not
be as focused on as what it hasbeen in the past, but they may

(44:50):
be looking more into, say, say,things like neurodiversity and
some of these other likeaccessibility and things like
that may become more of a thing.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, look, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
I don't know.
I can't quote what I'm reading.
Yeah, I don't know anythingabout that.
Yeah, I don't know anythingabout that.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
But all I do know is that, separate to that and what
I've been thinking and a lot ofpeople have been talking about
recently, well, maybe, maybe I'msort of seeing that, but, um, I
believe that neurodiversitydoes not sit in as a dni
initiative.
It is.
It is everyone, so one in fiveyeah, yeah, true statistic for

(45:28):
um, you know, neurodiversityprevalence, um, and that's sort
of becoming more of a globalstatistic, but we certainly
refer to it here in Australiaand I think you know, we know
that that means that it'severybody.
So every team, every manager,every, you know, every
department will need to becoming on board with how we work
in a more neuro-inclusive wayin general.

(45:48):
And so therefore, it's not kindof a budget that sits in D&I or
it's not an initiative, a abudget that sits in dni, or it's
not an initiative, it's, it'san everyday practice.
It sits with hr, it sits withyou know, it's every, it's part
of every policy and everyprocess.
So hopefully this kind of youknow will help us move more in
that way, as opposed to, youknow, just on dni totally,

(46:09):
totally.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
So moving on from that and I think this sort of
works into, but we seem to beflowing with it really well
vicky.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
You know what I mean.
We've got this down, pat, youknow.
So what are?

Speaker 1 (46:20):
some of the challenges you've encountered
along the way yeah, and I thinkI have.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
I've definitely listed some of them so far.
So, like I said, I think numberone is always lack of
understanding.
That is the biggest barrier,because if you have no
understanding, then you have no,or at least willingness to
understand.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
That stops I like that one.
What you've just said, thewillingness to understand.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
That's one of the challenges I've faced because
you need to be open to a totallylike, a different way of
recruiting um, leaning into whatthat person's experience is,
without bias or without sort ofstereotyping or assumptions,
because we're talking abouthidden neurotypes, right?
So every individual that you'reworking with, we don't know,
potentially, what's going on forthem.

(47:02):
And so that's the challengewhen managers, colleagues,
whatever interviewers, whoeveryou might be, we make
assumptions based on what we see, as opposed to you know the
whole person and what's going onfor them.
So, unconscious, bias,stereotypes, all of that
continues to be the biggestbarriers.

(47:25):
And then, leaning into whatwe've just said before, going
back to that, you know, lack ofinvestment, I suppose you know
there tends to be.
It tends to be deprioritized, Isuppose, but, like what I said
before, we believe that it isthe number one priority in terms
of, you know, meeting businessobjectives.
The bottom line, neurodiversityis key to everything and you
will, as a business, you, youget more innovation, you get

(47:50):
more um sorry, can I ask, isthere someone like yelling out
the window near your joint?
oh, sorry it's.
Yeah, I think it's youngchildren.
I'll close the door, is it no,no, no it's all cool.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
I was just like is that my house or is that your
joint?

Speaker 2 (48:04):
okay, no, it's all cool.
It's all cool.
Sorry, sorry, sorry been eatinghd.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Obviously hearing people like in the background,
it's like what the hell?

Speaker 2 (48:11):
is that I will close my window.
Just hang on a second.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah, too easy, too easy, oh my God.
Yeah, I don't know about others, but like yeah, when I like
hear little things, it likesidetracks me.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yes, no, and it's.
yeah, there's lots of kids inthis area, which is great, but
thank you, that's good, that'sgood, no problem yeah, and so
then I think the other shot,like I said, yeah, lack of
investment, budgetaryredirection or reprioritization
and um.
And one thing that'sinteresting fact from our
perspective at specialist and um, the lead time that I suppose
it takes from having the firstmeeting or the key, you know,

(48:47):
that really big discussion whereyou you can see the the cogs
turning and organizations orwhoever it might be in that
meeting, realizing how importantthis is and how vital it is,
but from that it can still be ayear or more to actually then
getting a contract signed ormoving ahead with the
initiatives that they know areimperative.

(49:08):
So we see that as a constantchallenge and that's what we're
always trying to work on ishelping organisations get to
that point and then move in thatdirection to make the changes
that need to be made and to takethem on that journey, and
that's what we sort offacilitate, I guess.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
No, no awesome stuff.
Now, on the flip side, whathave been some of the most
positive and rewardingexperiences for you?

Speaker 2 (49:33):
I love this question because it made me sort of
reflect on.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
We've spoken about the negative stuff.
Now let's talk about thepositive yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Look, I think, obviously, for me, I mean seeing
the journey of so manyindividuals that we've supported
over the years, who not onlysecure a job because for me, I
think the word job is not whatit is important but we're about
careers.
It's helping people connectwith, because a lot of
neurodivergent individuals maybe listening or that we know are
working for sure, but is it ina job that meets your skill sets

(50:06):
and where you're valued andthat is going to challenge you
and help you have careerprogression?
That's what we're about, and soit's finding the right team for
them and the values that valuesthem and that they can
contribute in a meaningful way,because, once again, every human
deserves to have that.
And so, you know, we've seenthat happen so many times over

(50:26):
the years that there's too manyto list.
But that, for me, is thatconnection and, you see, the
long-term impact of a career isobviously invaluable.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
And I think probably one of the coolest things would
be seeing people starting, forexample, growing, developing in
their career, going on evenfurther, but going on their own
journey.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Do you know what I mean?
I think, and I think it's inthere, um, you know, and if I
look back at what I was likewhen I was younger, um, it was
very difficult to take thosefirst steps to really build my
career, but once I sort of waslike, hang on, I've got this,
you know, there's no stopping me, type of thing, and I think
I've seen that in other people.

(51:12):
It's like man, this guy'skilling it, now this, this
woman's killing it.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Yes, yeah, and that's it and it's connecting.
And so, yeah, I mean, there'sso many individuals who, yes,
they've gone on their own pathand you can see that they're
finally getting that value andjust then the ripple effect on
the rest of their life likewe've some seen some individuals
going by their own houseswhereas before they weren't even

(51:37):
able to find work and justbeing a taxpayer is, you know,
is such a gift for a lot ofpeople who were never able to
achieve that before.
So that is part of the mostrewarding.
But then obviously, I thinksimilarly, the journey of the
manager and the organization isactually not talked about enough
.
So I've seen some managers whotake part in our, you know,

(52:00):
recruitment programs, forexample, this is, you know,
we've heard some managers saythat hiring neurodivergent
employees, this particularemployee, such and such, has
been the best thing that they'vedone in their career, because
they were taken on that journeyof perhaps apprehension.
Yes, like you know, you're kindof helping me see how to do
recruitment differently.
I've never done recruitmentdifferently or I've always

(52:21):
managed in this way.
So, you know, um, and, and thenthey, but they say I get it and
I appreciate it and I want tocome on the journey and they do.
And then the impact and theflip for them in terms of the
value to the team, you know,obviously to the role, but to
the entire team, to theorganisation and to them as a
manager.
So you know, if you're in thatposition as a manager or a

(52:45):
decision maker, you know this isthe impact.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
You're changing people's lives.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
You're changing people's lives and then for you
as an individual, you'rebringing more meaning to the
work that you do on a dailybasis.
And this is where it goes backto those challenges.
We get deprioritised in termsof the importance of this work,
but there's nothing moreimportant because it's about the
individual life, but then alsothe impact that you can have in

(53:11):
your individual role in anorganisation.
So we need to.
You know why aren't more peopledoing it?
We want to see people go onthis journey and you know we're
here to help do that.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
And I will say something else on that right,
because let's say, right, you'vehelped this individual, you're
a manager, you're a leader,you've inspired this person.
They've grown and developed,they've got all these great
skills.
And then let's say they're nowa manager and leader who are now
influencing other people.
That's what those people havegiven to those people who have

(53:45):
grown and developed.
They're inspiring not justthose people, but they're
inspiring other people throughthe people they've inspired but
that's, that's it.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
And it gives me goosebumps when you say that
because it's the ripple effect,right, the ripple effect of one
small act.
So that manager that I'm, youknow that I'm particularly
remembering he could have justchosen not to because it wasn't
in his daily, you know,priorities, or yeah, it was
taking too much time to focus onthe bottom line and all this
sort of stuff.
There's always, you know,something pulling us away, but

(54:21):
it the ripple effect of that oneaction of you know, supporting
that person well so that theythrive in their career, or
hiring that person, or trainingyour team.
The ripple effect of thattraining for everybody, you know
, it's invaluable.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
It is, it definitely is.
I was going to build somethingoff from that but I completely
forgot.
No, no, it's all cool, it's allcool.
It'll probably come back to me,but yeah, I think it's, you
know, helping.
You know, sometimes I look atit and's like man and it doesn't
matter if you're neurodivergentor not, but like creating, you

(54:56):
know, being a leader to createother leaders you know, I think
that's what I'm really big on.
But you know what actually blowsme away?
I do get a lot of people comingup to me going oh man, you're
so inspiring.
You inspire me, man, and Idon't even realise because I'm
just being me.
Do you know what I mean?
And it almost makes meembarrassed sometimes.

(55:16):
But I think this is the keything If someone can take away
just something little, that canmake such a huge difference for
that person in the long run.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Yes, and you know that's the power of what we're
doing here, because it will helpobviously that person for you
know, as a lifelong impact.
But then the ripple effect ofyou know, we know the data and
the stats around, working in adiverse team and a neurodiverse
team is higher morale and youknow, better communication and

(55:49):
you know, people stay longer andall that sort of stuff.
And so the data tells the storythat if you create this culture,
foster an inclusive workplacewithin your team, or, you know,
if you have more, you know adepartment or whatever it might
be, or even just in the way thatyou work with your colleagues,
that will have, you know, aripple effect on everything.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
Yeah, totally.
We are getting close to the end, so we'll get through this
question.
So what do you think needs tohappen next in the
neurodiversity employment space?

Speaker 2 (56:20):
it's a big question.
I love it though, um.
So I think, look, obviouslywe've spoken a lot about
awareness.
There's a lot of educationhappening.
Then needs to be more, but weneed to go from on, from beyond
just awareness raising toembedding neuro inclusion into
policies, like I said, allleadership performance

(56:40):
frameworks, um, and you know, atthe end of all of my training I
give you know I like to sort ofthink that there's a bit of a
call to action or somethingpeople can go away and do,
because education is achievingone objective of raising
awareness and helping peoplework better together.
But you know what next?
How can?
We can keep pushing the needle,um to create truly
neuro-inclusive workplaces, andI think that brings it back to

(57:03):
involving the um, the voices ofneurodivergent individuals, in
those decisions, and so someorganizations have ergs, for
example, but you, that'scritical, whatever that might
look like, involving people withlived experience and including
their voices in the changes, oryou know the work that you're
doing?

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Yeah, no.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
And I think there's a lot of talk and you know,
obviously, for me, being aneurodivergent leader, a lived
experience leadership and usingyour voice as a, as a
neurodivergent leader, to, to,to start the conversation and to
make it a comfortable, you know, a comfortable place where
people can come forward and feelsafe to disclose if they want

(57:44):
to, but removing the stereotypeof neurodiversity in leadership,
because that's, you know, thisis the stuff that will once
again create a ripple effect andinspire others to, you know,
use their voices.
So we want to have more leadersspeak up and create this
culture of change like this oneCan.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
I add on to that in a way.
Yeah, so I'm glad you let me dothat.
That made me joking.
I made a joke, I'm just takingthe piss.
Another big thing I would sayis definitely the utilisation of
technology.
I think, for me personally,technology has just completely

(58:26):
changed my life.
I think you were talking beforeabout your attention to detail.
You can miss that A lot of thetime.
Now I will run things through,like you know, chat, gpt or
whatever like that.
Or even if I'm wanting to writea blog, for example, right, I

(58:48):
know exactly what I want in thatblog, so I will just put
everything I want into that blog.
It won't be in order, oranything like that.
Then I go turn this into a blogfor me and boom you know it
makes my life so much easier.
I don't have to ring up my momand go hey, mom, can you check
this?
Oh, what the hell?
It's 10 o'clock at night.

(59:09):
You know what I mean, and Ithink this is but the the thing
I'm sort of getting at is thatwhat I'm finding with some
workplaces is they're often notyou know, they're not utilizing
the technology that is availablefor their um, uh employees and
it's like, and they're worriedabout like, um, you know cyber

(59:29):
threats and all that.
It's like and they're worriedabout like you know cyber
threats and all that it's like.
Well, start looking into it,because this is productivity
that you're losing becauseyou're not utilising that
technology.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
Yes, exactly, I mean, there's so many.
We can't list all the apps andall the tools that are around.
No way.
We're so lucky to live in thisspace and time that is enabling
people to work through some ofthe challenges that they were
typically struggling with behindthe scenes before, or you know,
and so, as you say, like justthe amount of work that went
into that, um, yeah, but there's, we are very lucky to be in

(01:00:02):
that, in that space and time toto aid um, where you know the
direction of where we're headingin terms of well, I feel so
free, I feel free.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
I feel free now, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
I feel that blockage.
I totally feel the same.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Yeah, and there are times.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
I will just say I do want to say one more thing in
terms of the direction we'reheading.
I think, like I alluded tobefore, organisations are
slowing down on thoserecruitment campaigns that we
used to run because people wantto organise sorry workplaces,
want to set up neuro-inclusiveworkplaces, and I totally that
is the way.
So you've got to build it.
You've got to build it beforethey come right.

(01:00:38):
You've got to build theenvironment so that people enter
a workplace that is safe andunderstanding.
But I will say this on theopposite side to that thinking,
those programs that we used torun, like we said, you know it
produced a lot of data, itproduced a lot of um, it got it
changed, it pushed the needle inthis space because it was, it

(01:00:59):
was well um covered, there was alot of um talk about it.
It got organizations changingtheir mindset and shift their
thinking and it made it apriority and it demonstrates the
impact at your organization andat your team about the impact
of not only neuro-inclusivehiring but neuro-inclusion in
general.
And so you know we'd beencouraging organisations to go
back to thinking about thebenefits of proactively hiring

(01:01:21):
neurodivergent individualsbecause obviously, once again,
there's that ripple effect.
But you've got that data at theend.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
And can I say one more thing on that right?
To say one more thing on thatright if places are sort of like
stepping away from what youused to do, for example, and
they're more going, hey look, wewant to be more inclusive and
implement, um, uh, being moreinclusive in our hiring methods,
stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
You've done your job, yes, you know what I mean
you've done your job, you knowwhat I mean yeah so yeah, I
think you know we're heading ina direction that's moving away
from that, but I would like tosee that sort of come back and
because, yeah, the, the, it's,the data demonstrates the impact
for the team, for theorganization and, obviously, the

(01:02:08):
individual.
You get the training whilst youdo that.
You, you know so there's somany outcomes that come from
that initiative.
But yeah, like I said, I thinkyou know we're heading in a
direction of leaders paving theway in terms of using their
voices.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
That's what it's all about.
Yeah, lived experience, that'swhat it's all about.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
And bringing employers on board to make the
changes that need to be made.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Totally, totally Vicky.
You are awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Now, if people want to connectwith you and be like man, I want
to get on the Vicky Littletrain right here where can they
find you?

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
So obviously on LinkedIn.
You can find me on LinkedIn,but our website,
specialisterncomau.
We've got some great casestudies on there.
We, you know, come and have alook to see the work that we've
done in terms of not only theindividuals who we've supported
into work but the employers thatwe've worked with.
There's some great docu-serieson there called Come as you Are.
If you want to watch something,if you're more visual, jump on
there and have a look and then,you know, reach out to us to

(01:03:07):
have a chat, to have a chat.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Cool, awesome.
Well, thank you so much forcoming along and look for anyone
who's been listening.
If you haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia pages or check us out on
anywhere you listen to yourpodcast.
Thank you very much for VickyLittle for joining us today.
My name's Will Wheeler.
Thank you Till next time.
No, problem.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Thanks so much for having me.