September 2, 2024 • 61 mins
In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we’re thrilled to have Shamus Hart as our special guest. Join us as we explore - What is masking & how does it affect us. Shamus shares personal insights and experiences, shedding light on the challenges many neurodivergent individuals face when trying to fit into societal norms. Don’t miss this enlightening conversation!
QUESTIONS:
1. Tell us a bit about yourself
2. Tell us a bit about your work
3. What is masking?
4. How does masking affect neurodivergent individuals?
5. Can masking be a useful tool?
6. There's a bit of of an "unmasking movement" happening at the moment. What your thoughts on it?
7. What have been your experiences around masking in the workplace?
8. What advice could you give to any neurodivergent people out there about managing masking in their life?
9. Where can people connect with you and find out more about your work?
All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com
To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.
#neurodiversity #neurodivergent #leadership #podcast
Please be sure to subscribe, like and follow all our social media platforms.
Click on our Linktree link provided below to access all of our social media platforms:
https://linktr.ee/openheartedapp?fbclid=IwAR3Mk3FNMMbC4_EwZaHwzHNgugWNL4Pnm7dANcrcEMKRKXfYFN5SPGgSGcU
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of NeuroDivergent Mates.
I'm your host, will Wheeler,joined with my main man, photon
(00:28):
John.
What's going on, brother?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, you know working hard.
A lot of Neurodiversity Academystuff today, nice, good, good,
good good good, good, good, goodto see.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Good to see.
Good to see.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, just a whole bunch of stuff.
Um, yeah, just um, a wholebunch of stuff.
So obviously, withneurodiversity academy, we've
got um, we've put out for anadvisory board and um, we've
actually had some really good umcandidates apply.
So I've been doing a fewinterviews there, um, that's
going to help me to develop theum accreditationsations in areas
(01:05):
I don't know.
So you know I'm surrounded bythese masters, meaning you and
Prateek, but I lack all thisother experience.
So having these people come onboard is going to be so helpful.
So it's been fun yeah, it hasbeen.
But I tell you what right, it'snot as exciting as the guests
(01:26):
that we've got coming on today.
So what we're going to becovering is what is masking and
how does it affect us withSeamus Hart.
Seamus, how's it going, myfriend?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Hey guys, yeah great, and thank you for inviting me
on the show.
I think it's a really excitingtopic.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
No problem.
No problem, it's great to beable for inviting me on the show
.
I think it's a really excitingtopic.
Um, no problem, yeah, we talk abit about it and it's it's um,
yeah, it's a daily thing, youknow, yeah, totally, and I think
, like you know, even for for me, like when kev you know, I'm
(02:04):
not autistic and Kev's taught mea lot about autism and I
remember him talking a lot aboutmasking I'm like what is
masking?
Or he'd tell me stuff, like youknow, I went out with my mates
and I said, look, I'm not goingto mask tonight and I want you
to be okay with that, am I right, ferdon John?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, I tried demasking for the first time.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, yeah, and I was sort of like, well, what does
that look like?
You know, what do?
What should I know?
As like a friend maybe, orwhatever.
So when you came in, when youand I were talking the other
week, it was sort of like youknow, you're talking a lot about
that, especially at work, andhow you mask a lot, and I was
(02:54):
like, oh my God, this will besuch a cool topic to get Photon
John in and yourself to talkabout this, you know.
But before we do get started, Imight just do a little bit of
housekeeping, just so we can.
I don't know, just let all ofour listeners know.
And I don't know, just let allof our listeners know.
So, if you haven't already doneso, please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia pages.
We're available on TikTok,linkedin, facebook, instagram, x
(03:15):
, twitch and YouTube.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Man, I stuffed it up a little bit there, man, I
usually have it all in order,but I got it, I got it.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, totally, totally.
But also too, if you haven'talready done so, please check
out all the work we're doing atneurodiversityacademycom.
We've got some really coolstuff happening there.
And also too, um, maybe whilewe're talking, some of the
discussions may be triggering.
If you need help, please reachout to loved one, to a loved one
(03:43):
, or call emergency services.
We are are not doctors.
This is the space for sharingexperience and strategies.
Also, too, if you've got anyquestions while we're going
through the live podcast, pleasepop it in the chat channels on
our pages there, and if we'restill live, we'll ask the
questions or have a bit of adiscussion while we're going
(04:05):
through it.
All right, I think I may.
Oh, here we go.
We've got a guest already.
I know that one.
I know that one.
Thank you, joe, for saying hello, awesome, okay, cool.
So you know, first things.
First, Seamus, um, tell us alittle bit about yourself.
(04:26):
You've done some really awesomestuff.
And um, yeah, just tell us alittle bit about ourselves okay,
I'll probably give you the the10,000 foot view.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
So, uh, yeah, I originally got a Asperger's
diagnosis well, a temporary one,I would probably say in 2007.
So it was like oh, here's yourpiece of paper.
Oh, by the way, it's adults, wedon't have much to actually
help you with.
Here's the certificate and goon your merry way.
It took me about 10 years toreally kind of come to terms
(05:01):
with it, and what actuallyhappened was I had quite a bit
of burnout and ended up gettinganother diagnosis in 2017, which
was ASD level what excuse me?
Autism spectrum disorder, levelone.
And then I recently gotre-diagnosed again, about a year
(05:25):
or two ago.
So I'm actually ASD level twowith ADHD, and the interesting
part about it is that part ofthe reason why my diagnosis had
changed so dramatically from 17now is due to masking.
So even a lot of practitionersand medical professionals
(05:49):
professionals especially fordiagnosing women are just not
sure about masking and where itfits in, and there's a couple of
dimensions to it.
So for me, I missed out becauseI didn't know I was masking as
much.
Uh, it's not funny.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Big vote on John.
You were the same right brother.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, you just described my entire life from
2007, including the diagnosesand the time they happened.
So, yeah, I did my first testand, quote, failed it.
You know, maybe you have Vespa,but yeah, I was sort of
answering the questions as Ikind of had learnt to, but not
(06:27):
really as I felt, because Ididn't realise the extent to
which I was masking.
You know, I was like, yeah,I've kind of learnt to deal with
that, so I'll answer it thisway, not, oh, actually that
really bothers me.
Yeah.
So yeah it's an interestingjourney oh sorry.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So what has happened?
Like you know, since, like youknow, being diagnosed, all that,
how has that changed for you?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Ooh, I think probably the big one is, I would say,
identity.
It's probably the biggest onebecause I guess pre-diagnosis
you're fitting in and for me itwas a matter of world was in
hard mode, couldn't work out why, like, and there was things
(07:16):
that people could do that Ithought that they're not
struggling at it or maybe theyare, but they're not saying
anything about it.
Everything from work to home torelationships, to doing things
like going out and then cominghome and like being totally
shattered for you know, a coupleof days, or just not having the
(07:39):
medical.
I guess the medical side kindof validated.
Um, like, I mean, somethinghappens, you get sick and it's
like there are other underlyingreasons for it.
Um, like the burnout isn'tburnout, it's because of you
know, my cup is, yay, full andI've used more than I can, so it
(08:01):
was like a bit of an energysort of a thing.
Um, I think it's also as wellyou understand, when you get an
autism diagnosis, that you'vebeen fitting into what a
neurotypical world is and howthat works, and then you kind of
look at yourself and you go,well, who actually am I?
I think that's probably themost significant thing to come
(08:21):
out of it is that you realisethat you've just, basically,
there's an identity that you'vemade to fit into a world that's
not really accommodating and notreally understanding of what
you need, and that's from likeschool to even to the workplace.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And I think that's probably a neurodivergent thing
as a whole, because I'm notautistic, but I look at a lot of
things myself, or even when Iwas younger, and think, you know
, I don't feel normal, if thatmakes sense, I know that's very
not me.
(08:59):
That was what was going on in myhead at the time.
I'm like, well, I feel like Idon't fit into this crowd.
But I feel like I don't fitinto this crowd but I can, I
feel like I can be amongst it.
Um, and that was very difficultand, I suppose, confusing at
the same time.
That I don't know, I just feltlike I didn't really have a like
.
I just know, when I was atschool, I would was the one who
(09:22):
would move around from crowd tocrowd, not to stay with the one
lot of people, because and Isuppose when I look at it now,
it's probably my ADHD, forexample going okay, you've had
enough of these people, they'reboring, you need to go on to the
next people type of thing.
You're the friendly guy, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I was about to the only thing I was going to add to
that that you just sparked amemory.
It was like when I when I wasin in high school.
One of the things is they talkabout like peer group pressure,
and I'm sitting in there and Ijust like I didn't get it.
I'm like why would you want todo that?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
that really should have been an indication for
being yeah, true, it probablycould have been a lot like that,
but you know what, like when,when you and I sat down, I think
it was about a week or so ortwo weeks ago, whenever it was,
time flies when you're havingfun, I suppose, um, and you were
talking to me about a lot ofstuff.
You know, you you've done a lotof work, but you've, um, you're
(10:20):
really trying to get into theneurodiversity space now.
So, you know, tell us a littlebit about the work that you do
or you're trying to work towards.
I'd really love to hear alittle bit about that.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Oh, I guess part of it is that part of the identity
and self-discovery.
I started a psych degree andI've also one subject left on a
double, basically a double majorin philosophy and applied
ethics, and part of it.
I just found all of thesethings that I thought I really
(10:54):
wish I knew these when I was ateenager.
They would have weighed.
You know, things likeattachment theory, attachment
styles, how people interact.
I really wish I kind of knewthat.
And it applied really well toto being a ux designer, because
you're designing for you knowpeople doing things.
Um, so there was part of thatwhich kind of was a natural um
(11:17):
connection.
But there's the other part ofit.
I found that there was a lot ofum neurodivergent people who I
had worked with and some wereout, some weren't, and I found
that a lot of the stuff that Ihad, exactly what they had.
So I started kind of postingthings up on Medium, just doing
some random posts, doing a fewworkshops with places of work.
(11:42):
A lot of it resonated a lot.
It was either someone wasneurodivergent or they had
neurodivergent kids and they'relike, okay, that's why they're
doing that.
Um, I had quite a few people Iworked with and um really great
instances that one of the theguys who I worked with had a um,
had an autistic child and oneof the things that they
(12:05):
struggled with was the conceptof tomorrow opposed to days of
the week, and like explaining tothem like tomorrow isn't
logical, but Tuesday is, so itdoesn't change.
And that helped them.
And another one as well, saidyou know, they're having
(12:25):
problems after lunch with theirautistic child and it was purely
the sensory from a playground.
They gave them headphones andthat just solved them.
That's like, yeah, wow, theirwife goes oh my God, you're my
new best friend.
And I just found that there wasa lot of need for it.
There was stuff that for me waslogical and just made sense.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
But can I just say on that, like you know, I'm not a
parent, but I'm assuming as aparent you just wouldn't think
that playing in the playgroundwould be something that someone
would be affected by, becauseyou'd think, oh great, the kids
out there having fun.
You know that.
Do you know what I mean?
(13:10):
You're thinking, oh, they'replaying on the swings, how could
that affect them?
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
what I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
It's a whole different and I suppose it's a
whole different way of lookingat it going.
Well, that could actuallyaffect them a lot because of
these things going on.
Yeah, speaking from experience.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Well, speaking from experience, they might be having
an absolutely traumaticnightmare.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, but people just wouldn't see it that way.
People just may not see it thatway.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I mean it's funny.
You know you were talkingbefore about um, uh, masking and
graduate and the identity sideof stuff, you know, tying into
the school thing.
I was the kid in grade one orwhatever, just walking around by
themselves at lunch because Ijust there was just complete
disconnect with me and the otherkids.
I couldn't comprehend them andthey couldn't comprehend me.
(14:03):
And then, as I got older, youknow, I got lonely, so I started
learning oh, this is thecorrect way to behave, and I'm I
don't have any idea whatmasking is, but I build this
sort of series of um behaviorsthat I've gradually learned
through very harsh trial anderror, uh, the way to get people
to.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
You know, not hate on you and um, yeah, and you think
what was?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
um, I was just a very strange kid.
I was just like there was,there was a um.
I remember when we were ingoing to school in tasmania,
there was this other kid.
I think we made friends becausewe're just as weird as each
other, because we didn't talk toeach other.
And I remember I was it waslike grade one we were on the
monkey bars and I was just, yeah, we just sort of silently
agreed that we would both playon the monkey bars and you know
(14:51):
doing a few things that werefunny and then started laughing
and then we just became friends,right, and it was just there
was.
He didn't put any of that verbalstuff on me that I couldn't
navigate, you know what I mean.
But then he was like one of myfirst friends and then I sort of
figured out how to have friendsand figured it out more and
more.
And then I became a musician inhigh school and suddenly people
(15:14):
want to talk to me and so Istart learning all these
behaviours and I think I'mprogressing and improving as a
person.
But I'm actually getting worsebecause as I do this more and
more I'm starting to burn out.
I start to experience burnoutduring my teen years quite hard,
and I just think I havedepression and so they put me on
antidepressants, but it's notreally addressing any of the
(15:34):
root causes.
I'm not learning any tools tocope with this stuff, so yeah,
long-winded answer Great.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
So maybe that goes well into our next question.
Yeah, long-winded answer Great.
So maybe that goes well intoour next question.
Yeah, but yeah, so what ismasking?
You know, seamus, you know Ithink it's important.
I know, from when I first metwith Kev, I was like, masking,
what are you talking about?
Like I just honestly didn't getit.
And when you're not from that,like, um, you know, being
(16:07):
autistic, um, and and look,don't get me wrong I, I'm
learning, as well as aneurodivergent person, that I as
, especially as an adhd, therewas probably a lot of times I
was masking, or even as adyslexic person, I was masking
as well at times, but maybe notat the level that, say, an
(16:29):
autistic person may, if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
It's interesting you say because it's a really good
segue from John what you saidbefore, because one of the
things that I could not do atschool and I was tested for
dyslexia, I think in about yeareight, remembering that I can't
read under fluorescent lights, Isee the flickering.
(16:57):
So the way that I would getaround that was I'd memorize a
text so I could pretend that Iwas readingise a text so I could
pretend that I was reading andgoing and it wasn't to do
anything like that.
So I mean, I think like in asimplistic way, like people look
at masking as kind of acting,but it's a little bit more
(17:18):
nuanced and a little bit morelike complex than that.
There's actually quite a lot ofacademic literature on it that
goes from everything like youcan think of.
But the way that I kind ofnavigate it is that when you
think about it it's an acutestress response to social
(17:39):
stimuli.
Is that I'm getting anxious fornot fitting in?
How can I change my behaviourand lower that stress to fit in?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Which then?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
increases stress, exactly, and also increases
cognitive load, and I think alot of people don't realise that
a lot of the autisticbehaviours from high-functioning
people and I hate that term areconditioned out of them
inadvertently, like I mean agood one with ADHD.
(18:14):
It's like if we're notfidgeting, we're not paying
attention.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Oh, okay, I see what you mean, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
So ADHD, there is forms of masking.
So like I'm ADHD, adhd as wellit's like if I'm fidgeting I'm
not really paying attentionbecause I'm spending all my time
to actually pretend to listenwhen I'm clearly not.
So you can imagine how greatmeetings are when I'm not
fidgeting.
So a mask would be stoppingthat fidget and that's
(18:43):
reinforced.
You know parents telling theirkids oh, you know, you've got to
pay attention in class.
So they're not actually payingattention, they're, they're just
masking an underlying.
So try and look as if they'redoing that.
Yeah, exactly.
And then that kind of goes intothe subconscious and like
there's level of levels ofconsciousness when you think
(19:03):
about masking everything fromlike the, the behavioral stuff,
like how am I going to dress andwhat type of scripting am I
going to say when I'm talking tosomeone, to mirroring
behaviours, mirroring themannerisms you know, suppressing
stims and that really deepsubconscious stuff that you're
(19:25):
not really aware that you'redoing but you kind of do.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's quite a complicated web of cogs
happening under the hood thatyou don't really realise.
It's not just I'm pretending tobe okay.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yeah, no, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, and I think you know, could you?
I'm just trying to think, couldyou give like an example of
maybe what that might be?
So you know, we're talking alittle bit about relationships
before before we came on.
You know how was that, and I'vesort of watched a few things on
TikTok, for example.
(20:03):
We can't like take what theysay on TikTok, but the people
who were sharing stuff, theyweren't giving advice on masking
, for example, they were moresharing their experience.
So I think that was sort of a.
You know it was interesting tohear.
But you know, I remembersomeone was sharing that when
they would go on dates, peoplewould be like, would be like, oh
(20:26):
well, you know this person, butthey were masking the whole
time and then once, like, thatrelationship gets, I suppose,
more involved.
You know you can't just bemasking the whole time you're in
a relationship.
That must be incredibly hard aswell, because how do you
present yourself straight fromthe get-go, especially when
(20:47):
you're dating and things likethat?
Speaker 3 (20:52):
It's an interesting one, especially in the dating
scene, because when you thinkabout it, that dating, in
essence it's a lot of peacockingand a lot of like falseness to
it, like you're presenting anavatar of what you think
yourself is.
Um, but yeah, it's.
(21:12):
It's a difficult one,especially like we burn out
really quickly so we can'treally mask around partners and
this goes across anyone who'sneurodivergent.
It's just we can't mask long,and that goes for both partners
as well.
So you get a lot of burnout oryou notice that your partner is
(21:33):
stimming, which is a reallyinteresting thing.
So I actually read a study acouple of weeks ago and they
said one of the big confusingthings for women on the spectrum
and masking and stimmingbehavior is that it's often
confused as flirting so one ofthe give me an okay, you give me
(21:54):
an example, really really goodexample of it.
Yes, that a neurotypical femalewill often play with her hair.
It's a form of preening toprove that they're like,
interested, and you know they'replaying with her hair.
It's a form of preening to provethat they're interested and
they're playing with their hair.
With an autistic female, it'sactually quite the opposite is
that they will do stimmingbehaviour to lower that anxiety
(22:15):
level, and so they might haverepetitive behaviour with their
hair.
It might be their stim playingwith their hair.
Yeah, that's interesting.
You interpret it as, oh wow,they're really interested when
it's not the case, and thatcould be a problem.
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Well, that's a oh, here you go.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Oh no, you wouldn't have any problems with that.
I've been sitting away.
No, you don't have any.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Oh, that right.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Sorry, mate, problems with that.
I've been sitting away.
It is me.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
no, you don't have any hair on that right?
No, um, it's, it's.
You know, it can be our wholeexperience, you know, um, I
often try to explain my friends.
The thing with autism is thatnot all the behaviors we might
exhibit seem abnormal.
They might be perfectly normalbehaviors that anyone else
exhibits.
But the, my friends, the thingwith autism is that not all the
behaviors we might exhibit seemabnormal.
They might be perfectly normalbehaviors that anyone else
exhibits.
But the thinking that got us tothat behavior was completely
(23:12):
different and it doesn't meanwhat you think it means.
Would that be sort of whatyou're getting at?
Oh so your neurotypical brainsees the behavior and goes well,
the way I know this, the way Iunderstand this behavior.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
It means this, but the autistic person is just not
even remotely in the sameheadspace you know, because I'm
sorry, sorry to just step in onthat one right because I
remember, before I met my wife II did go out on a date with a,
an autistic person, at one pointand she was playing with her
hair and I was thinking, oh, Ithink this girl's interested,
(23:48):
type of thing, so why that's?
I honestly did pick that up,you know, and I thought, um that
that was the case, type ofthing it's.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
It's.
It's interesting because it'slike that's one of the big ones,
especially masking, because youmay not, by the time the I
guess this is probably a reallyweird flip side one is that a
lot of the times with masking,and when the person gets
comfortable with them, they dropthe mask and then suddenly
you've got this oh my God,there's a completely different
(24:20):
person.
What's actually happened?
So it's like it's a real weirdsort of a vibe and it's like and
and a lot of masking.
It's like you may not evenrealize you're doing it, like
even I I found out like themasking I was doing was
effectively conditioned from avery young age, like oh, stop
(24:42):
fidgeting.
Like a lot of the, the stimsthat I would have done as a
child, like they weredisciplined out of me by
well-meaning teachers.
So it means that I was maskingthose autistic traits, which
means that I go into a you knowa to a medical practitioner and
(25:05):
they're also contending with 35years' worth of really effective
masking and strategies to fitin with the group.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
And when you start to become aware of masking and
what it is and how it affectsyourself, um, that can also be
stressful, even if you're stilldoing it.
You're still good at it.
I was.
I was just.
You know, I hate walk-inbarbers and every barber just
just like walking.
I'm like no, give me anappointment.
I want to get in, get it done,get out, um.
But I couldn't do it the otherday, so I went in and I'm having
to sit there with families andstuff and I just was very aware,
(25:43):
in a way that I wasn't when Iwas younger, how uncomfortable,
you know, the whole situationwas for me.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
The waiting game.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Yeah, and I was supposed to do shopping
afterwards and I just didn't.
I just went home and just sortof sat in a dark corner.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, wow, crazy, crazy.
And do you know what?
Sometimes and this is nothingagainst the barbers, because
they're probably trying to docustomer service and all that
but sometimes I just enjoy goingto a barber where I don't have
to make conversation.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Do you know what I?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
mean They'll just do my hair.
So sometimes I'll try to go toa barber that can't speak really
good English and they won'treally talk to me type of thing,
and they'll just do my hair andI'm out of there if that makes
sense, it's.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
It's interesting you say that because there's also a
cultural dimension to masking aswell.
So even from a cultural pointof view you will see um people
do that.
I mean, best example of it isif you watch that border.
You know the borders where theycatch people going through
customs and bringing in.
All the people do it.
(26:49):
So it's not just a phenomenathat's just completely isolated
to autism.
It's like the degree of whichdepends on, like I guess the
best way to look at it is the,the, the majority versus a
minority.
So part of it is is a socialtechnique to fit in.
(27:09):
So it's like it's interestingthat you you kind of said that
because it's that often kind ofum affects other areas, just not
autism and I don't thinkeveryone's kind of yeah well you
know what.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
It's interesting because I I'm and I think I
think it sort of maybe workswell into our next question how
does masking affectneurodivergent individuals?
And I think, as I'm learningmore about my diagnosis and all
that and even from you know, Iwas diagnosed with dyslexia when
I was like 10 or something likethat I'm still learning a lot
(27:46):
about certain things that sortof happened or what I was
thinking back in those days.
So, for example, I was meetingwith someone on the weekend and
when I speak to a lot of peopleI used to go to school with, I
talk about how, you know, I wasgoing through so much, I was
failing, I had no realself-esteem, I felt like a loser
(28:09):
, all that.
And people are like what really, I thought you were just this
popular, cool kid and I'mthinking what?
That was the opposite to what Iwas thinking.
But a friend of mine, they'relike well, you must have been
masking really well, becausethat was the image you were
putting across, but inside I wasa complete wreck, if that makes
(28:34):
sense, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, no, it totally does make sense.
Yeah, I think probably.
Yeah, john, you probably wantto have a good thought on this
no, no, no, no, no one thought Iwas good all good, all good.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So how does masking affect neurodivergent
individuals?
So we've sort of touched alittle bit on on it.
But what's like?
No, you know.
So what can be the outcome ofpeople having to mask all the
time, say at work or whatever.
That might be what, and we'vesort of spoken about kev you'd
(29:14):
have to go home and sit in adark room, um, what you know?
Could this cause illness?
Can this cause people to goinsane?
I don't know.
This is where it would beinteresting to hear a little bit
more about it.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, it's an interesting one because I think,
probably the big one.
When you think about it.
It's the cognitive load, likefor me, and to kind of like
touch on what you guys saidbefore, it's like for me I was a
wreck and always exhausted.
I've had glandular fever acouple of times.
It's how fast I've pushedmyself.
(29:52):
So I've had serious burnout andit's purely because of the
cognitive load.
And if you think about it likethis is that neurodivergent
people tend to process about 40%more stimuli than a
neurotypical brain.
And there's like you can have alook on Google with a couple of
(30:12):
these and they've got brainscans and showing how much they
process.
So we're not just processingmore, but we're having more
conscious thought, and I'mtalking about different levels
of consciousness here toactually appear normal.
So we're over-processing.
So it's, like you know, reallyover-revving a tuned car like a
(30:34):
V6 or a V8 and not switching upthe gears.
So the amount of effort we have, there's always going to be
burnout and it's not a matter ofif you're going to get burnt
out, it's a matter of when.
And it's like.
I've seen a lot of people.
They get their diagnosismiddle-aged, like you know, in
(30:54):
their middle 30s to 40s, andit's because they've just
exerted so much energy to appearto be normal and end up burning
out and, as a result, it's likeoh, by the way, the underlying
reason for all this exhaustionis purely because you've you
know, you're masked effectivelyto fit in.
(31:15):
You're doing all thesecompensatory acts to fit in.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Can I give you an example and I was just thinking
about it then of masking as adyslexic person right Now.
I think this works in with it.
Well, right.
So let's say, when I'm reading,right Now, I can read really
well.
But if I want to try to read,to look as if I really know how
to read and look good, I cansound really great.
(31:41):
But I am not going to bepicking up what I'm actually
reading, you know.
So if you're thinking about akid in school who's trying to
read something can try to soundlike everyone else so it doesn't
look like they're struggling orwhat.
It don't get me wrong.
When I was in school, I stillread and I was struggling.
But now, because it wasinteresting, I had to speak at
(32:03):
this school on last Wednesdayand there was a question saying
oh you know, is it true that ifyou read a book more than once,
you will retain all of thatinformation?
And I'm thinking no way.
And then someone's like thenone of the people on the panel
is like yeah, yeah, that's true.
And I'm like thinking.
(32:24):
One of the people on the panelis like yeah, yeah, that's true.
And I'm like thinking what thehell?
And I'm thinking I could readit a million times and still not
pick it up.
But like you were talking aboutwith that brain and I know the
pitch you're talking about yousee the I think it's the
autistic brain is using like itswhole, the whole brain, where,
say, a neurotypical brain wouldjust be using a slight little
(32:45):
part of it, type of thing.
And I'm thinking, and like I'mno doctor, but like what I'm
thinking is that because I'mtrying to focus and get
everything while I'm reading, Iam having to try and use all of
my brain and my brain feels likeit's physically like like
burning type of thing.
It's not like that, but it'shard to explain it.
(33:08):
But it is yeah, it is, it's likesorry, you go well, what I was
sort of going to finish off withis that, let's say, I then get
um a certain technology to readthat book back to me.
My brain's now able to relaxand I'm able to just take that
(33:29):
information, because I'm nothaving to do the reading, take
the information in, try to bedoing it at a speed that
everyone else thinks it's good,so I'm able to relax and bring
more like information in andlearn better, you know.
So I think that could be sortof like masking in a way for
dyslexic people, if that makessense.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Absolutely.
It's like you're probably a 90skid like me.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, man, 90s, girl.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, 90s, girl.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Remember getting the old 486 or the pentium one, like
the first season seriespentiums.
You could like play some reallycool 3d games, but you'd need a
3d card in it okay.
So if there was no 3d card.
You could still run it, um, butyou'd hear the, the fan and
that like burn.
That's exactly what's happeningwith us is it's like running
(34:25):
without gpu.
That's kind of what I was goingto say before.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
It's just like yeah I feel the burning, the burning
brain thing you were talkingabout.
Will I get that when I'm,because I don't really have a
problem with loud noises as such.
It's certain types of noises,or too many, going on at once
and I that's when there's somuch going on in the room and
I'm talking to a person tryingto cut out all this other
sensory noise and just hear themand not appear rude.
(34:52):
That's when my brain's on fire.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
It's almost like at a networking event for me.
I'm trying to cut outeverything else just to focus on
this person.
Or I remember I was sittingdown with one of our advisory
board members on Saturday.
I took her out for lunch and wehad a bit of a brainstorming
session.
Man, we were going for it hardas both ADHDers.
(35:18):
Then I just got to a point andI'm like like my brain is fried
and she's like so is mine.
I'm like let's stop.
You know what I mean?
It was just.
It was just like it was likethat.
You know you can be pompous andand I think that's like a hyper
focus.
You know we'll hyper focus andthen all of a sudden we just go
(35:40):
boom, boom, that's it.
I need to break.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, no, definitely, definitely.
It's like, definitely, you kindof get to the end of it and
your brain's just done as muchas it can.
It's like a switch, it justgoes off?
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah, it does, and it's almost like say, if we have
I don't know, let's say it'slike okay, work, let's have
lunch.
Trying to get back into whatyou were before lunch, for
example, it can be incrediblydifficult For me.
It might be like I can't getback into it for another three
(36:17):
hours.
My brain is, but then I couldbe back in hyper focus again.
It's sort of weird how it sortof really works like that.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Or if you have like a whole, sorry, just if you have
a whole.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
No, you're right.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Hyper-focus day and you kick ass at work and your
boss is like, oh, that's thebest, and then the next morning
you can't even come in.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Yeah, yeah, totally, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
That cup emptied yesterday and I'm going to need
some time.
You know, yeah, totally,totally, totally.
It's almost like you know.
Sometimes, like Friday, let'ssay like by the time it gets to
Friday, you're like, oh my, andeveryone's like this.
It's like, oh my God, theweekend, you know, and it's just
good to relax and recharge,type of thing.
But I remember I used to onlydo four days a week.
(37:07):
I'm doing five days a week now.
And I'm like, oh my God, likedoing four days a week was so
much better for me mentally.
You know, now I'm sort of likewhat the weekend's over, I still
like, I still feel like I'm onthe recharge button.
Weekend's over, I still feellike I'm on the recharge button,
if that makes sense, you know.
But we should move on from that.
Can masking be a useful tool?
Speaker 3 (37:34):
that's, that's a good .
That's a good one.
I I think you can take two.
No, no, it's.
It's a good one.
It's it's.
I think you can take two toolsfrom it.
I think, at a fundamental level,masking when and this is kind
of like from all the academicstuff it's compensatory behavior
(37:55):
for not fitting in or astereotype bias, depending on
how you look at it.
So part of it is the utilityand this is from a utilitarian
stance.
So it's like, as an outcome, isthat it's something that we do
to fit in and that's more of asymptom of not having the right
(38:15):
structures and supports andaccommodations.
So it's like for us to get thebasic level of social well we
have to mask.
But then, if you look at itfrom the other point of view, so
the antisocial version ofmasking and a lot of people
don't look at it it's calleddark acting.
It's called dark acting.
(38:36):
So psychopaths, so anything onthe dark triad trait, which is
psychopathy, machiavellianismand narcissism.
Yeah, narcissism tends to usedark acting to get they want.
So they use this acting ormasking as a utility To get what
(38:57):
they want, type of thing.
Yeah, they use this acting ormasking as a utility.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
People like us To get what they want type of thing,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
So it's to manipulate and get the outcome they want.
On the other hand, we need touse it to fit in, because, I
mean, we're already excludedfrom a lot of things and the
best way we can get that is notreally being ourselves, but by
fitting in with the, theaccepted behaviors, like you
kind of said before.
(39:20):
Like, oh, at school you thoughteveryone thought you had it
together and you were the coolguy and all that, but it was
like deep down it wasn't.
It was part of driving behaviorwas to get that level of
acceptance.
Um, not a nefarious, nefarioustype of thing, it was just
that's what you were trying toget out of it and yeah, yeah
(39:42):
yeah, yeah, yeah totally, andyou know, kev, what sorry I'll
feed on john.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
What about yourself, mate?
Like what was some of you knowwhen you were like in your band
and stuff, was it like similarfor that, or is that more like
you could be more yourself?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
yeah, the band got better and my vocal performances
got far better when I justpulled the curtain down and
stopped all that nonsense oftrying to.
You know, because I was like itwas a very I was doing the sorts
of performances that othersingers were doing, but I was
doing it in a way that I hadstudied them and I'm thinking
mechanically about everythingthat I'm doing every minute of
(40:23):
every song and it distracted mefrom quality and all that kind
of stuff.
So as soon as I just went, I'mgoing to dance around like a
crazy person and stim on stageand I'm going to be really open
online about the fact that I'mautistic and ADHD and possibly
other things.
But you know, music's easybecause people are really
accepting and they likedifferent people and it made me
(40:43):
such a unique vocalist that waythat we became more popular and
so it was a really good thing.
But in dealing with venues,sometimes when you're touring
around, in dealing with peopleto do with work, especially
where sales are concerned, orjust a short interaction it's
not something I've ever forcedmyself to do for long periods of
(41:05):
time, but I do find sometimesthere's just a short interaction
that I need to have withsomeone at the shop or at work
and I'll just put it on the maskand because it just makes it
happen easier and I need to getan answer out of them or
something like that.
But I just don't recommend itas a long time, all the time,
kind of strategy, you know.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
So when I come up to visit, do you remember?
I'm coming up to visit you in,like, yeah, october, november,
okay, I'm glad because I wouldhave been homeless, I could have
gone to my parents house, but,um, I would have had to go all
the way from Redcliffe back downto Victoria Point.
But anyway, that's all anotherstory.
Will you be masking that wholetime on there?
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Not really.
No, it's.
You know it's little things andit's big things, and I'm still
learning when I'm masking.
I still haven't fully figuredit out.
And you know, there's thatidentity thing that you spoke
about, seamus.
I'm still figuring that out too, but it's starting to become.
You know, the more I marinatein this community and you know,
the podcast has been likeamazing for me.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Can I ask what you mean by the identity thing?
Well, you don't know what doyou mean?
The identity thing?
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Well, you get so used to masking.
You do it for so many years youdon't know what parts of you
are you really being you andwhat parts of you were learned
behaviors to become moreaccepted.
You know what I mean.
Wow.
So now it's like this thing.
Now there's like little things.
My friends know if we're in a,a club or whatever, and because
I'm fine when there's like aband on or I'm in the band
because it's one moving piece ofsound that just drowns out
everything else, if you knowwhat I mean.
But they're trying to talk tome and all I can hear is the air
conditioner two rooms away.
I can just say that to them andthey're like, oh okay, well,
(42:46):
I'll finish this conversationwith you later then.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
And they don't expect me and they understand that
they don't expect me or getupset with me if I can't focus.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
They understand that I'm having a if I can't focus.
That's interesting.
That's interesting because I'vesort of I suppose I've learnt a
lot about myself as well inregards to once I got diagnosed
with my ADHD, that I couldn't goto the shops at certain times
because there was just way toomany people and there's babies
crying and, you know, trolleysin my way and I just couldn't be
(43:20):
in this free for all, like youknow.
I just felt.
But now, when I've sort of gota better idea of what time to go
there or to get it dropped tomy boot, I now know that works
for me.
Seamus, what's it been like foryou?
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
It's funny because that was probably the big thing
that I kind of got out of it andit's kind of part of the reason
why I started studyingphilosophy.
Long story short and a friendof mine knows that kind of one
of my special interests is likemythology and I was like
absolutely ancient Egypt crazy.
(44:01):
When I was a child Got me theMyth of Sisyphus, thinking it
was like mythology and it's not.
It's basically anexistentialism book by Camus
Great read, by the way, and alot of it.
Like there's bits in it thatit's just so on point about
(44:24):
being autistic and especiallyabout the sense of meaning, and
it's like you kind of realisethat what you're doing is none
of it's for yourself and none ofit's things that you actually
get a lot of joy out of or anysort of meaning.
It's just purely to fit in.
So I'm acting this way to fitin, like that's the purpose.
(44:46):
It's not like, oh well, you knowI like doing this, so it's
actually I don't like doing thisand it's only doing that
fitting in.
I mean one of the the big onesthat I got out of Camus when he
said and this is the light bulbmoment for me when I thought, oh
, I am probably 100% autistic onthis one because I really
didn't come to terms to it untillike 2016, 2017, that he said
(45:12):
you'd be surprised how manypeople put so much energy in to
be appearing normal when they'renot.
And I'm just like that was me.
I may have muffed up the quotea little bit, but that's roughly
what he said and it's like forme.
It's like that identity bit,because the mask, you start
doing it, you're doing it allthe time and you lose who and
(45:36):
why you're doing it.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah, you're doing it all the time and you, like, you
lose who, who and why.
You're doing it.
Yeah, can we just, can I justtake a moment to point out that
amazing bloody sense of reliefwhen not just diagnosis, but
these things start to dawn onyou.
You're going, oh, okay, also alittle bit of a grieving process
as you learn.
You're like things could bevery different.
But, yeah, that I, I, you knowit's been so beautiful learning
(45:59):
more about it and having thesechats, you know, on the podcast
and yeah, it just and probablyvalidated well, probably
connecting with people similarwho have had a similar
experience.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
And you're sort of like because I always, always
say this I felt like when I wasin school I was the only
dyslexic person who wasstruggling and failing in school
.
That's what I felt.
But then once I opened up,especially to some people at
school, they're like oh yeah,man, I'm this.
And now I'm like, oh my God, Inever thought that in a million
(46:32):
years.
But then you sort of feel thatlike, like, oh, so it's not just
me who's going through this andit's almost a sense of relief,
but it's still some like somehard times back then because you
felt very lonely.
It was very lonely because youyou didn't know you're thinking
there's something not right withme.
(46:53):
You know, cool, cool, cool,cool, cool.
Sorry, did you have somethingyou wanted to share, shangers?
Speaker 3 (47:02):
Oh no, it's just.
Yeah, that made a lot of sense,what you said before.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
No, totally, totally Now.
You know, fodor and John wasactually talking about this when
we were getting the questionstogether and he said there's a
bit of an unmasking movementhappening at the moment.
What are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 3 (47:22):
oh I, I.
I think it's a reallyinteresting one because I I'm
probably going to say somethingthat's probably not not in line
with it.
But I think it's not so much anunmasking movement, I'm saying
it's more of an identitymovement where it's the
isolation of hey, this is notreally brilliant.
(47:44):
It's more of an existentialmovement, if you will.
It's saying that you knowautistic people exist or any
type of neurodivergent personexists and because of that the
movement's really identifyingthe behaviours from a
(48:05):
neurominority.
It's not necessarily unmasking,it's making.
It's like actually educatingpeople about them, and I think
that's a good thing.
Similar to what Frantz Fanondid with a lot of his cultural
context of like the mid-20thcentury.
So same sort of thing.
(48:26):
But yeah, for me it's like I'veseen all different types and I
think it's still a good thing,like getting education out there
about what a condition is, notjust from a dsm-4 or five or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Um makes a huge difference for acceptance and
actually like not burning outthrough masking but also not not
getting all of your learning onthis topic from tick tock yes
which is not which is not toinvalidate it, but I do see a
lot of influencers out there whoare You're right, and look, I
(49:05):
never disparage anyone who's notdiagnosed.
You know, I knew four yearsbefore I got diagnosed, but
pre-diagnosis you're not alwaysas super educated.
And just people in general onsocial media they're not always
super educated.
They might get some thingswrong and they shouldn't be
giving medical or mental healthadvice.
So, yeah, you've got to becareful about what, what you
(49:26):
choose, where you choose tolearn from.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Um, yeah, and it sort of rilesme a little bit because these
tiktokers will build like thesehuge followings because I know
maybe they look good in whateverthey're wearing or they do some
funny clips and that, but thenthey start becoming experts and
selling books and all of thisstuff and I'm like what the hell
(49:51):
?
There's people out here who'sdoing all this research and that
, who have the evidence behindthem and you know if, and it's
just, it's a real problem totell you the truth.
It's a real problem, but youcan get.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
This is what I mean by picking and choosing.
I mean, um that adhd loveaccount.
You know they're kind of likewhat you're talking about.
They've made funny videos,they're a couple um, they're
really beautiful, but butthey've learned a lot through
diagnosis and psychologists andso they they've genuinely
educated themselves and theyhave written a book which, um I
bought for my mom who's um hasfound out she's all dhd and um
(50:28):
uh, that, I know, is reallygenuine, genuinely helpful and
full of.
I can't wait to read it whenshe's done, you know, so it.
So it can go the other way, Ithink you're just going to pick
carefully you know who youchoose to listen to.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
But it just blows my mind that someone can do a funny
video or do like I was watchinga son do the other day and he
was just doing something, likehe was hiding behind a bin or
something and going I don't knowwhat it was, it was like an
ADHD-er.
When they're going out intopublic and they're hiding behind
a bin or something like thatGot thousands of views, you know
(51:02):
, I suppose it's, you know,funny and all of that type of
thing.
But then you know people arelike you know, all it would take
is that person to then giveadvice and people would be like
yeah, yeah, yeah, you're deadright.
And then a person who does havethe experience and knowledge to
come in and go actually that'snot right.
(51:22):
And then, because these peoplehave such a huge following,
they'll then attack you forbeing wrong when you're not
wrong you know what I mean,exactly, exactly, and it's even
even in the space.
Speaker 3 (51:35):
you get quite a few people like that.
They mark out their littleterritory and it's like they
become the pseudo expert in it.
And I've seen that a lotposting up on LinkedIn and Insta
and it's like a lot like Ithink it's like a fine line and
it's like even with a lot of themainstream media shows and that
(51:58):
I think a lot of them are alittle bit dangerous on how they
actually portray someneurodivergent conditions but
don't actually label it so likeGood Doctor, really good example
of it.
And to a second extent.
But the Good Doctor isn'tautistic, he's, he's, it's
(52:21):
savantism.
If you want to look at it, andit's like you know, I can't
memorize gray's anatomy.
If I could, I wouldn't be Iwould have been a doctor when I
was 12 years old, but, yeah,that hasn't happened yeah, and
you know, it's neurodiversity.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
You know, like all the autistic people are not the
same.
It's just, yeah, it'sfrustrating so you know, I just
quickly want to say, before wemove on, not to disparage any
social media influences we lovethem, we want to have more of
them on the show and we alsolove ready set squirrel in
particular.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
She's amazing yeah, yeah, yeah, and, like we said,
there are some good people doingsome really great stuff.
It's.
It's like who are those peopleyou know?
Um, they're sometimes cloudedbehind the crap that's out there
, the false crap.
I should say, um, cool, cool,cool.
So what has been yourexperiences around masking at
(53:16):
work?
Now, I know you and I spokeabout this when you and I first
caught up.
How has that been for you, oryour past experience, because I
know you went through a fair bitof stuff.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
Yeah, I think it's a really tough one.
Probably the best example of itis I've done kind of in
services for some businesseswhen I've worked there and I've
spoken about autism.
The thing that really shocksthem is that one in five are
(53:50):
neurodivergent and they all tendto ask and it's like there's
this idea that there's none inthe organisation and chances are
, statistically speaking, you'veprobably got one in five Will's
going to have something to sayabout this, I'm sure.
Yeah, no, it's reallyinteresting.
Yeah, and there's the otherpoint of view is that your
(54:13):
autistic specifically forautistic workers will be masking
.
So if they're not feeling safearound you, they're not going to
ask the right accommodations,they're not going to get the
right support and you're notgetting the best out of them,
and so it's got.
A knock-on effect is thatyou've got kind of liabilities
aside, you've got people whowill burn out very quickly and
(54:35):
for the amount of effort thatthey need to fit in where it's,
I don't think that's a good wayof managing anyone yeah, it's um
, it's a tricky one.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
It's actually interesting with the one in five
, I had someone say to me ohlook, we don't have dyslexic
people at our workplace.
And I'm just thinking, oh yeah,you've probably got, like you
know, a handful of them sittingin your office right now.
Um, it just shows how littleyou know, um, but that's the
type of mindsets we're stillliving with, um.
(55:09):
But you know what I'm saying?
There are some workplaces whoare really doing some great
stuff on it now, um, but not allyou know, and I it's just with
some of the workplaces I'mdealing with at the moment.
I'm just seeing it.
I'm just like oh my god, likethese guys have no idea users so
users, so I don't know what theword like had it just well.
(55:37):
It just blows my mind that whatwe're trying to work towards,
some people are saying thatthey're neuro inclusive, but
they're probably the worst onesyou know and it's like, oh my
god, like you've got so much tolearn, but you know they have
neuro inclusive quotas.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Perhaps.
Speaker 1 (55:56):
But that's about it you're exactly right, it's true
there's quotas that they do haveto get with some things, but
anyway, that's a whole.
That's a whole.
Nother podcast, um, but look,we're getting to the end.
But like, what advice could yougive to any neurodivergent
(56:19):
people out there about managingmasking in their life?
Speaker 3 (56:25):
I would probably start with a bit of reductive
absurdism and just really askwhy.
I think that the hardestquestion to ask is why you're
actually masking and there's,there's always an underlying
reason for it.
Um, you know it's, you know itcan be anything, um, a lot of it
(56:46):
.
I, you know, I've unpacked overthe last several years with,
with um, with my therapist, andfound out oh, by the way, you
know, it was discipline Out ofyou at high school or like, and
not just talking aboutpunishment, it's like things
like well, I would complainabout the lights, and well, the
(57:08):
explanation and this has gonethrough even to the workplace
that you're effectively gaslitto believe that's not a problem,
that you're effectively gaslitto believe that's not a problem.
So I would say part of it isthat underlying why are you
masking?
And it's usually social orsensory aspects to why you're
doing that.
Understanding that and it's notabout unmasking, it's just
(57:33):
understanding the why and Ithink it also gives a lot more
validity to what you're actuallygoing through and why things
are so hard yeah, no,interesting, interesting.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
What are your thoughts on that photo on john?
Speaker 2 (57:47):
um, something I was kind of going to say before
about the, the demasking, or, uh, the re-educating is perhaps a
better way to put it.
Like you're saying before,seamus, but be careful just
suddenly dropping the mask in apublic space, that could.
That in itself could betraumatic, you know, because,
(58:07):
although you may have to takesome time to get to know exactly
every aspect of what it isyou're doing to mask, there's
likely going to be a few thingsyou're aware of.
We're just like, okay, I'm justgoing to stop doing all these
things at once.
That could be an experience.
Do it responsibly, think aboutit carefully.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Ah no, interesting, interesting stuff.
Seamus, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Like you know, you're doingsome really starting to do some
really cool stuff out there.
You know, if people areinterested in some of the stuff
you're doing, where can theyconnect with your work?
Speaker 3 (58:41):
The best place is LinkedIn, so a lot of the works
I'm putting up on LinkedIn, soit's just like all these little
interesting thought experimentsthat I've picked up through my
studies and talking to otherneurodivergent people.
Speaker 1 (58:56):
So yeah, yeah, and you said you were going to be
releasing a book and I say thatthat's correct.
I'm actually in edit mode, I'mnot saying so.
Speaker 3 (59:09):
No, no, no, it's actually in edit mode at the
moment.
Yeah, cool, so I've written.
Yeah, yeah, I've done totallythe autistic hyper focus thing
and I've got about 200 000 wordsand I'm cutting that down, so
there'll probably be a couple ofbooks in in it.
Um, I've got about 80 throughediting before it gets sent on
(59:30):
to the next stage what's um?
Speaker 1 (59:32):
what's the book about ?
Speaker 3 (59:35):
uh, breaking down a lot of myths of autism, and I've
taken a bit of a philosophicalapproach to it, so looking at
kind of a lot of the kind of themythology around autism, like
masking, you know, fitting intoorganisations, some things about
(59:57):
culture, relationships there'ssome really fascinating stuff
going around about that.
So it's really about breakingdown those myths and using
universal myths like CassandraRing of Gyges that I picked up
through my philosophy course.
So I thought I'd use thatintroduction Unleash nice, yeah,
(01:00:20):
unleash it to the world.
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
Well, look, seamus.
Thank you so much for coming ontoday.
It's been really cool talkingto you.
You know I can't wait to go toyour big book launch, hopefully
in.
Sydney here.
Yeah, that should be cool.
Hopefully Photon John can comedown for that.
What do you reckon, Photon John?
Or is he on mute?
(01:00:44):
I think he's on mute.
Did you turn yourself on mute,mate?
I did, I did.
Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
No, that would be awesome.
I need to come down to Sydney.
I keep talking about it and notgetting around to it.
Totally, totally.
Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
But thank you so much seamus, it's.
It's been a pleasure, my friendoh, thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate.
It's just been, uh, so much funtalking about you guys no, no
problem, no problem.
Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
and for all of our listeners as well.
If you haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
We're available on loads ofdifferent places.
Also, check us out on all ofour podcasting platforms.
Wherever you listen to yourpodcasts, my name's Will Wheeler
, join with my main man, photonJohn, and this is NeuroDivergent
.
May it's until next time, yeah.
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of NeuroDivergent Mates.
I'm your host, will Wheeler,joined with my main man, photon
(00:28):
John.
What's going on, brother?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, you know working hard.
A lot of Neurodiversity Academystuff today, nice, good, good,
good good good, good, good, goodto see.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Good to see.
Good to see.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, just a whole bunch of stuff.
Um, yeah, just um, a wholebunch of stuff.
So obviously, withneurodiversity academy, we've
got um, we've put out for anadvisory board and um, we've
actually had some really good umcandidates apply.
So I've been doing a fewinterviews there, um, that's
going to help me to develop theum accreditationsations in areas
(01:05):
I don't know.
So you know I'm surrounded bythese masters, meaning you and
Prateek, but I lack all thisother experience.
So having these people come onboard is going to be so helpful.
So it's been fun yeah, it hasbeen.
But I tell you what right, it'snot as exciting as the guests
(01:26):
that we've got coming on today.
So what we're going to becovering is what is masking and
how does it affect us withSeamus Hart.
Seamus, how's it going, myfriend?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Hey guys, yeah great, and thank you for inviting me
on the show.
I think it's a really excitingtopic.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
No problem.
No problem, it's great to beable for inviting me on the show
.
I think it's a really excitingtopic.
Um, no problem, yeah, we talk abit about it and it's it's um,
yeah, it's a daily thing, youknow, yeah, totally, and I think
, like you know, even for for me, like when kev you know, I'm
(02:04):
not autistic and Kev's taught mea lot about autism and I
remember him talking a lot aboutmasking I'm like what is
masking?
Or he'd tell me stuff, like youknow, I went out with my mates
and I said, look, I'm not goingto mask tonight and I want you
to be okay with that, am I right, ferdon John?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, I tried demasking for the first time.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah, yeah, and I was sort of like, well, what does
that look like?
You know, what do?
What should I know?
As like a friend maybe, orwhatever.
So when you came in, when youand I were talking the other
week, it was sort of like youknow, you're talking a lot about
that, especially at work, andhow you mask a lot, and I was
(02:54):
like, oh my God, this will besuch a cool topic to get Photon
John in and yourself to talkabout this, you know.
But before we do get started, Imight just do a little bit of
housekeeping, just so we can.
I don't know, just let all ofour listeners know.
And I don't know, just let allof our listeners know.
So, if you haven't already doneso, please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia pages.
We're available on TikTok,linkedin, facebook, instagram, x
(03:15):
, twitch and YouTube.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Man, I stuffed it up a little bit there, man, I
usually have it all in order,but I got it, I got it.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, totally, totally.
But also too, if you haven'talready done so, please check
out all the work we're doing atneurodiversityacademycom.
We've got some really coolstuff happening there.
And also too, um, maybe whilewe're talking, some of the
discussions may be triggering.
If you need help, please reachout to loved one, to a loved one
(03:43):
, or call emergency services.
We are are not doctors.
This is the space for sharingexperience and strategies.
Also, too, if you've got anyquestions while we're going
through the live podcast, pleasepop it in the chat channels on
our pages there, and if we'restill live, we'll ask the
questions or have a bit of adiscussion while we're going
(04:05):
through it.
All right, I think I may.
Oh, here we go.
We've got a guest already.
I know that one.
I know that one.
Thank you, joe, for saying hello, awesome, okay, cool.
So you know, first things.
First, Seamus, um, tell us alittle bit about yourself.
(04:26):
You've done some really awesomestuff.
And um, yeah, just tell us alittle bit about ourselves okay,
I'll probably give you the the10,000 foot view.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
So, uh, yeah, I originally got a Asperger's
diagnosis well, a temporary one,I would probably say in 2007.
So it was like oh, here's yourpiece of paper.
Oh, by the way, it's adults, wedon't have much to actually
help you with.
Here's the certificate and goon your merry way.
It took me about 10 years toreally kind of come to terms
(05:01):
with it, and what actuallyhappened was I had quite a bit
of burnout and ended up gettinganother diagnosis in 2017, which
was ASD level what excuse me?
Autism spectrum disorder, levelone.
And then I recently gotre-diagnosed again, about a year
(05:25):
or two ago.
So I'm actually ASD level twowith ADHD, and the interesting
part about it is that part ofthe reason why my diagnosis had
changed so dramatically from 17now is due to masking.
So even a lot of practitionersand medical professionals
(05:49):
professionals especially fordiagnosing women are just not
sure about masking and where itfits in, and there's a couple of
dimensions to it.
So for me, I missed out becauseI didn't know I was masking as
much.
Uh, it's not funny.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Big vote on John.
You were the same right brother.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, you just described my entire life from
2007, including the diagnosesand the time they happened.
So, yeah, I did my first testand, quote, failed it.
You know, maybe you have Vespa,but yeah, I was sort of
answering the questions as Ikind of had learnt to, but not
(06:27):
really as I felt, because Ididn't realise the extent to
which I was masking.
You know, I was like, yeah,I've kind of learnt to deal with
that, so I'll answer it thisway, not, oh, actually that
really bothers me.
Yeah.
So yeah it's an interestingjourney oh sorry.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So what has happened?
Like you know, since, like youknow, being diagnosed, all that,
how has that changed for you?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Ooh, I think probably the big one is, I would say,
identity.
It's probably the biggest onebecause I guess pre-diagnosis
you're fitting in and for me itwas a matter of world was in
hard mode, couldn't work out why, like, and there was things
(07:16):
that people could do that Ithought that they're not
struggling at it or maybe theyare, but they're not saying
anything about it.
Everything from work to home torelationships, to doing things
like going out and then cominghome and like being totally
shattered for you know, a coupleof days, or just not having the
(07:39):
medical.
I guess the medical side kindof validated.
Um, like, I mean, somethinghappens, you get sick and it's
like there are other underlyingreasons for it.
Um, like the burnout isn'tburnout, it's because of you
know, my cup is, yay, full andI've used more than I can, so it
(08:01):
was like a bit of an energysort of a thing.
Um, I think it's also as wellyou understand, when you get an
autism diagnosis, that you'vebeen fitting into what a
neurotypical world is and howthat works, and then you kind of
look at yourself and you go,well, who actually am I?
I think that's probably themost significant thing to come
(08:21):
out of it is that you realisethat you've just, basically,
there's an identity that you'vemade to fit into a world that's
not really accommodating and notreally understanding of what
you need, and that's from likeschool to even to the workplace.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And I think that's probably a neurodivergent thing
as a whole, because I'm notautistic, but I look at a lot of
things myself, or even when Iwas younger, and think, you know
, I don't feel normal, if thatmakes sense, I know that's very
not me.
(08:59):
That was what was going on in myhead at the time.
I'm like, well, I feel like Idon't fit into this crowd.
But I feel like I don't fitinto this crowd but I can, I
feel like I can be amongst it.
Um, and that was very difficultand, I suppose, confusing at
the same time.
That I don't know, I just feltlike I didn't really have a like
.
I just know, when I was atschool, I would was the one who
(09:22):
would move around from crowd tocrowd, not to stay with the one
lot of people, because and Isuppose when I look at it now,
it's probably my ADHD, forexample going okay, you've had
enough of these people, they'reboring, you need to go on to the
next people type of thing.
You're the friendly guy, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I was about to the only thing I was going to add to
that that you just sparked amemory.
It was like when I when I wasin in high school.
One of the things is they talkabout like peer group pressure,
and I'm sitting in there and Ijust like I didn't get it.
I'm like why would you want todo that?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
that really should have been an indication for
being yeah, true, it probablycould have been a lot like that,
but you know what, like when,when you and I sat down, I think
it was about a week or so ortwo weeks ago, whenever it was,
time flies when you're havingfun, I suppose, um, and you were
talking to me about a lot ofstuff.
You know, you you've done a lotof work, but you've, um, you're
(10:20):
really trying to get into theneurodiversity space now.
So, you know, tell us a littlebit about the work that you do
or you're trying to work towards.
I'd really love to hear alittle bit about that.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Oh, I guess part of it is that part of the identity
and self-discovery.
I started a psych degree andI've also one subject left on a
double, basically a double majorin philosophy and applied
ethics, and part of it.
I just found all of thesethings that I thought I really
(10:54):
wish I knew these when I was ateenager.
They would have weighed.
You know, things likeattachment theory, attachment
styles, how people interact.
I really wish I kind of knewthat.
And it applied really well toto being a ux designer, because
you're designing for you knowpeople doing things.
Um, so there was part of thatwhich kind of was a natural um
(11:17):
connection.
But there's the other part ofit.
I found that there was a lot ofum neurodivergent people who I
had worked with and some wereout, some weren't, and I found
that a lot of the stuff that Ihad, exactly what they had.
So I started kind of postingthings up on Medium, just doing
some random posts, doing a fewworkshops with places of work.
(11:42):
A lot of it resonated a lot.
It was either someone wasneurodivergent or they had
neurodivergent kids and they'relike, okay, that's why they're
doing that.
Um, I had quite a few people Iworked with and um really great
instances that one of the theguys who I worked with had a um,
had an autistic child and oneof the things that they
(12:05):
struggled with was the conceptof tomorrow opposed to days of
the week, and like explaining tothem like tomorrow isn't
logical, but Tuesday is, so itdoesn't change.
And that helped them.
And another one as well, saidyou know, they're having
(12:25):
problems after lunch with theirautistic child and it was purely
the sensory from a playground.
They gave them headphones andthat just solved them.
That's like, yeah, wow, theirwife goes oh my God, you're my
new best friend.
And I just found that there wasa lot of need for it.
There was stuff that for me waslogical and just made sense.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
But can I just say on that, like you know, I'm not a
parent, but I'm assuming as aparent you just wouldn't think
that playing in the playgroundwould be something that someone
would be affected by, becauseyou'd think, oh great, the kids
out there having fun.
You know that.
Do you know what I mean?
(13:10):
You're thinking, oh, they'replaying on the swings, how could
that affect them?
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
what I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
It's a whole different and I suppose it's a
whole different way of lookingat it going.
Well, that could actuallyaffect them a lot because of
these things going on.
Yeah, speaking from experience.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Well, speaking from experience, they might be having
an absolutely traumaticnightmare.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, but people just wouldn't see it that way.
People just may not see it thatway.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I mean it's funny.
You know you were talkingbefore about um, uh, masking and
graduate and the identity sideof stuff, you know, tying into
the school thing.
I was the kid in grade one orwhatever, just walking around by
themselves at lunch because Ijust there was just complete
disconnect with me and the otherkids.
I couldn't comprehend them andthey couldn't comprehend me.
(14:03):
And then, as I got older, youknow, I got lonely, so I started
learning oh, this is thecorrect way to behave, and I'm I
don't have any idea whatmasking is, but I build this
sort of series of um behaviorsthat I've gradually learned
through very harsh trial anderror, uh, the way to get people
to.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
You know, not hate on you and um, yeah, and you think
what was?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
um, I was just a very strange kid.
I was just like there was,there was a um.
I remember when we were ingoing to school in tasmania,
there was this other kid.
I think we made friends becausewe're just as weird as each
other, because we didn't talk toeach other.
And I remember I was it waslike grade one we were on the
monkey bars and I was just, yeah, we just sort of silently
agreed that we would both playon the monkey bars and you know
(14:51):
doing a few things that werefunny and then started laughing
and then we just became friends,right, and it was just there
was.
He didn't put any of that verbalstuff on me that I couldn't
navigate, you know what I mean.
But then he was like one of myfirst friends and then I sort of
figured out how to have friendsand figured it out more and
more.
And then I became a musician inhigh school and suddenly people
(15:14):
want to talk to me and so Istart learning all these
behaviours and I think I'mprogressing and improving as a
person.
But I'm actually getting worsebecause as I do this more and
more I'm starting to burn out.
I start to experience burnoutduring my teen years quite hard,
and I just think I havedepression and so they put me on
antidepressants, but it's notreally addressing any of the
(15:34):
root causes.
I'm not learning any tools tocope with this stuff, so yeah,
long-winded answer Great.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
So maybe that goes well into our next question.
Yeah, long-winded answer Great.
So maybe that goes well intoour next question.
Yeah, but yeah, so what ismasking?
You know, seamus, you know Ithink it's important.
I know, from when I first metwith Kev, I was like, masking,
what are you talking about?
Like I just honestly didn't getit.
And when you're not from that,like, um, you know, being
(16:07):
autistic, um, and and look,don't get me wrong I, I'm
learning, as well as aneurodivergent person, that I as
, especially as an adhd, therewas probably a lot of times I
was masking, or even as adyslexic person, I was masking
as well at times, but maybe notat the level that, say, an
(16:29):
autistic person may, if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
It's interesting you say because it's a really good
segue from John what you saidbefore, because one of the
things that I could not do atschool and I was tested for
dyslexia, I think in about yeareight, remembering that I can't
read under fluorescent lights, Isee the flickering.
(16:57):
So the way that I would getaround that was I'd memorize a
text so I could pretend that Iwas readingise a text so I could
pretend that I was reading andgoing and it wasn't to do
anything like that.
So I mean, I think like in asimplistic way, like people look
at masking as kind of acting,but it's a little bit more
(17:18):
nuanced and a little bit morelike complex than that.
There's actually quite a lot ofacademic literature on it that
goes from everything like youcan think of.
But the way that I kind ofnavigate it is that when you
think about it it's an acutestress response to social
(17:39):
stimuli.
Is that I'm getting anxious fornot fitting in?
How can I change my behaviourand lower that stress to fit in?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Which then?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
increases stress, exactly, and also increases
cognitive load, and I think alot of people don't realise that
a lot of the autisticbehaviours from high-functioning
people and I hate that term areconditioned out of them
inadvertently, like I mean agood one with ADHD.
(18:14):
It's like if we're notfidgeting, we're not paying
attention.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Oh, okay, I see what you mean, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
So ADHD, there is forms of masking.
So like I'm ADHD, adhd as wellit's like if I'm fidgeting I'm
not really paying attentionbecause I'm spending all my time
to actually pretend to listenwhen I'm clearly not.
So you can imagine how greatmeetings are when I'm not
fidgeting.
So a mask would be stoppingthat fidget and that's
(18:43):
reinforced.
You know parents telling theirkids oh, you know, you've got to
pay attention in class.
So they're not actually payingattention, they're, they're just
masking an underlying.
So try and look as if they'redoing that.
Yeah, exactly.
And then that kind of goes intothe subconscious and like
there's level of levels ofconsciousness when you think
(19:03):
about masking everything fromlike the, the behavioral stuff,
like how am I going to dress andwhat type of scripting am I
going to say when I'm talking tosomeone, to mirroring
behaviours, mirroring themannerisms you know, suppressing
stims and that really deepsubconscious stuff that you're
(19:25):
not really aware that you'redoing but you kind of do.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's quite a complicated web of cogs
happening under the hood thatyou don't really realise.
It's not just I'm pretending tobe okay.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yeah, no, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, and I think you know, could you?
I'm just trying to think, couldyou give like an example of
maybe what that might be?
So you know, we're talking alittle bit about relationships
before before we came on.
You know how was that, and I'vesort of watched a few things on
TikTok, for example.
(20:03):
We can't like take what theysay on TikTok, but the people
who were sharing stuff, theyweren't giving advice on masking
, for example, they were moresharing their experience.
So I think that was sort of a.
You know it was interesting tohear.
But you know, I remembersomeone was sharing that when
they would go on dates, peoplewould be like, would be like, oh
(20:26):
well, you know this person, butthey were masking the whole
time and then once, like, thatrelationship gets, I suppose,
more involved.
You know you can't just bemasking the whole time you're in
a relationship.
That must be incredibly hard aswell, because how do you
present yourself straight fromthe get-go, especially when
(20:47):
you're dating and things likethat?
Speaker 3 (20:52):
It's an interesting one, especially in the dating
scene, because when you thinkabout it, that dating, in
essence it's a lot of peacockingand a lot of like falseness to
it, like you're presenting anavatar of what you think
yourself is.
Um, but yeah, it's.
(21:12):
It's a difficult one,especially like we burn out
really quickly so we can'treally mask around partners and
this goes across anyone who'sneurodivergent.
It's just we can't mask long,and that goes for both partners
as well.
So you get a lot of burnout oryou notice that your partner is
(21:33):
stimming, which is a reallyinteresting thing.
So I actually read a study acouple of weeks ago and they
said one of the big confusingthings for women on the spectrum
and masking and stimmingbehavior is that it's often
confused as flirting so one ofthe give me an okay, you give me
(21:54):
an example, really really goodexample of it.
Yes, that a neurotypical femalewill often play with her hair.
It's a form of preening toprove that they're like,
interested, and you know they'replaying with her hair.
It's a form of preening to provethat they're interested and
they're playing with their hair.
With an autistic female, it'sactually quite the opposite is
that they will do stimmingbehaviour to lower that anxiety
(22:15):
level, and so they might haverepetitive behaviour with their
hair.
It might be their stim playingwith their hair.
Yeah, that's interesting.
You interpret it as, oh wow,they're really interested when
it's not the case, and thatcould be a problem.
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Well, that's a oh, here you go.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Oh no, you wouldn't have any problems with that.
I've been sitting away.
No, you don't have any.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Oh, that right.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Sorry, mate, problems with that.
I've been sitting away.
It is me.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
no, you don't have any hair on that right?
No, um, it's, it's.
You know, it can be our wholeexperience, you know, um, I
often try to explain my friends.
The thing with autism is thatnot all the behaviors we might
exhibit seem abnormal.
They might be perfectly normalbehaviors that anyone else
exhibits.
But the, my friends, the thingwith autism is that not all the
behaviors we might exhibit seemabnormal.
They might be perfectly normalbehaviors that anyone else
exhibits.
But the thinking that got us tothat behavior was completely
(23:12):
different and it doesn't meanwhat you think it means.
Would that be sort of whatyou're getting at?
Oh so your neurotypical brainsees the behavior and goes well,
the way I know this, the way Iunderstand this behavior.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
It means this, but the autistic person is just not
even remotely in the sameheadspace you know, because I'm
sorry, sorry to just step in onthat one right because I
remember, before I met my wife II did go out on a date with a,
an autistic person, at one pointand she was playing with her
hair and I was thinking, oh, Ithink this girl's interested,
(23:48):
type of thing, so why that's?
I honestly did pick that up,you know, and I thought, um that
that was the case, type ofthing it's.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
It's.
It's interesting because it'slike that's one of the big ones,
especially masking, because youmay not, by the time the I
guess this is probably a reallyweird flip side one is that a
lot of the times with masking,and when the person gets
comfortable with them, they dropthe mask and then suddenly
you've got this oh my God,there's a completely different
(24:20):
person.
What's actually happened?
So it's like it's a real weirdsort of a vibe and it's like and
and a lot of masking.
It's like you may not evenrealize you're doing it, like
even I I found out like themasking I was doing was
effectively conditioned from avery young age, like oh, stop
(24:42):
fidgeting.
Like a lot of the, the stimsthat I would have done as a
child, like they weredisciplined out of me by
well-meaning teachers.
So it means that I was maskingthose autistic traits, which
means that I go into a you knowa to a medical practitioner and
(25:05):
they're also contending with 35years' worth of really effective
masking and strategies to fitin with the group.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
And when you start to become aware of masking and
what it is and how it affectsyourself, um, that can also be
stressful, even if you're stilldoing it.
You're still good at it.
I was.
I was just.
You know, I hate walk-inbarbers and every barber just
just like walking.
I'm like no, give me anappointment.
I want to get in, get it done,get out, um.
But I couldn't do it the otherday, so I went in and I'm having
to sit there with families andstuff and I just was very aware,
(25:43):
in a way that I wasn't when Iwas younger, how uncomfortable,
you know, the whole situationwas for me.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
The waiting game.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Yeah, and I was supposed to do shopping
afterwards and I just didn't.
I just went home and just sortof sat in a dark corner.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, wow, crazy, crazy.
And do you know what?
Sometimes and this is nothingagainst the barbers, because
they're probably trying to docustomer service and all that
but sometimes I just enjoy goingto a barber where I don't have
to make conversation.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Do you know what I?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
mean They'll just do my hair.
So sometimes I'll try to go toa barber that can't speak really
good English and they won'treally talk to me type of thing,
and they'll just do my hair andI'm out of there if that makes
sense, it's.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
It's interesting you say that because there's also a
cultural dimension to masking aswell.
So even from a cultural pointof view you will see um people
do that.
I mean, best example of it isif you watch that border.
You know the borders where theycatch people going through
customs and bringing in.
All the people do it.
(26:49):
So it's not just a phenomenathat's just completely isolated
to autism.
It's like the degree of whichdepends on, like I guess the
best way to look at it is the,the, the majority versus a
minority.
So part of it is is a socialtechnique to fit in.
(27:09):
So it's like it's interestingthat you you kind of said that
because it's that often kind ofum affects other areas, just not
autism and I don't thinkeveryone's kind of yeah well you
know what.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
It's interesting because I I'm and I think I
think it sort of maybe workswell into our next question how
does masking affectneurodivergent individuals?
And I think, as I'm learningmore about my diagnosis and all
that and even from you know, Iwas diagnosed with dyslexia when
I was like 10 or something likethat I'm still learning a lot
(27:46):
about certain things that sortof happened or what I was
thinking back in those days.
So, for example, I was meetingwith someone on the weekend and
when I speak to a lot of peopleI used to go to school with, I
talk about how, you know, I wasgoing through so much, I was
failing, I had no realself-esteem, I felt like a loser
(28:09):
, all that.
And people are like what really, I thought you were just this
popular, cool kid and I'mthinking what?
That was the opposite to what Iwas thinking.
But a friend of mine, they'relike well, you must have been
masking really well, becausethat was the image you were
putting across, but inside I wasa complete wreck, if that makes
(28:34):
sense, you know.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, no, it totally does make sense.
Yeah, I think probably.
Yeah, john, you probably wantto have a good thought on this
no, no, no, no, no one thought Iwas good all good, all good.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So how does masking affect neurodivergent
individuals?
So we've sort of touched alittle bit on on it.
But what's like?
No, you know.
So what can be the outcome ofpeople having to mask all the
time, say at work or whatever.
That might be what, and we'vesort of spoken about kev you'd
(29:14):
have to go home and sit in adark room, um, what you know?
Could this cause illness?
Can this cause people to goinsane?
I don't know.
This is where it would beinteresting to hear a little bit
more about it.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, it's an interesting one because I think,
probably the big one.
When you think about it.
It's the cognitive load, likefor me, and to kind of like
touch on what you guys saidbefore, it's like for me I was a
wreck and always exhausted.
I've had glandular fever acouple of times.
It's how fast I've pushedmyself.
(29:52):
So I've had serious burnout andit's purely because of the
cognitive load.
And if you think about it likethis is that neurodivergent
people tend to process about 40%more stimuli than a
neurotypical brain.
And there's like you can have alook on Google with a couple of
(30:12):
these and they've got brainscans and showing how much they
process.
So we're not just processingmore, but we're having more
conscious thought, and I'mtalking about different levels
of consciousness here toactually appear normal.
So we're over-processing.
So it's, like you know, reallyover-revving a tuned car like a
(30:34):
V6 or a V8 and not switching upthe gears.
So the amount of effort we have, there's always going to be
burnout and it's not a matter ofif you're going to get burnt
out, it's a matter of when.
And it's like.
I've seen a lot of people.
They get their diagnosismiddle-aged, like you know, in
(30:54):
their middle 30s to 40s, andit's because they've just
exerted so much energy to appearto be normal and end up burning
out and, as a result, it's likeoh, by the way, the underlying
reason for all this exhaustionis purely because you've you
know, you're masked effectivelyto fit in.
(31:15):
You're doing all thesecompensatory acts to fit in.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Can I give you an example and I was just thinking
about it then of masking as adyslexic person right Now.
I think this works in with it.
Well, right.
So let's say, when I'm reading,right Now, I can read really
well.
But if I want to try to read,to look as if I really know how
to read and look good, I cansound really great.
(31:41):
But I am not going to bepicking up what I'm actually
reading, you know.
So if you're thinking about akid in school who's trying to
read something can try to soundlike everyone else so it doesn't
look like they're struggling orwhat.
It don't get me wrong.
When I was in school, I stillread and I was struggling.
But now, because it wasinteresting, I had to speak at
(32:03):
this school on last Wednesdayand there was a question saying
oh you know, is it true that ifyou read a book more than once,
you will retain all of thatinformation?
And I'm thinking no way.
And then someone's like thenone of the people on the panel
is like yeah, yeah, that's true.
And I'm like thinking.
(32:24):
One of the people on the panelis like yeah, yeah, that's true.
And I'm like thinking what thehell?
And I'm thinking I could readit a million times and still not
pick it up.
But like you were talking aboutwith that brain and I know the
pitch you're talking about yousee the I think it's the
autistic brain is using like itswhole, the whole brain, where,
say, a neurotypical brain wouldjust be using a slight little
(32:45):
part of it, type of thing.
And I'm thinking, and like I'mno doctor, but like what I'm
thinking is that because I'mtrying to focus and get
everything while I'm reading, Iam having to try and use all of
my brain and my brain feels likeit's physically like like
burning type of thing.
It's not like that, but it'shard to explain it.
(33:08):
But it is yeah, it is, it's likesorry, you go well, what I was
sort of going to finish off withis that, let's say, I then get
um a certain technology to readthat book back to me.
My brain's now able to relaxand I'm able to just take that
(33:29):
information, because I'm nothaving to do the reading, take
the information in, try to bedoing it at a speed that
everyone else thinks it's good,so I'm able to relax and bring
more like information in andlearn better, you know.
So I think that could be sortof like masking in a way for
dyslexic people, if that makessense.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Absolutely.
It's like you're probably a 90skid like me.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, man, 90s, girl.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, 90s, girl.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
Remember getting the old 486 or the pentium one, like
the first season seriespentiums.
You could like play some reallycool 3d games, but you'd need a
3d card in it okay.
So if there was no 3d card.
You could still run it, um, butyou'd hear the, the fan and
that like burn.
That's exactly what's happeningwith us is it's like running
(34:25):
without gpu.
That's kind of what I was goingto say before.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
It's just like yeah I feel the burning, the burning
brain thing you were talkingabout.
Will I get that when I'm,because I don't really have a
problem with loud noises as such.
It's certain types of noises,or too many, going on at once
and I that's when there's somuch going on in the room and
I'm talking to a person tryingto cut out all this other
sensory noise and just hear themand not appear rude.
(34:52):
That's when my brain's on fire.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
It's almost like at a networking event for me.
I'm trying to cut outeverything else just to focus on
this person.
Or I remember I was sittingdown with one of our advisory
board members on Saturday.
I took her out for lunch and wehad a bit of a brainstorming
session.
Man, we were going for it hardas both ADHDers.
(35:18):
Then I just got to a point andI'm like like my brain is fried
and she's like so is mine.
I'm like let's stop.
You know what I mean?
It was just.
It was just like it was likethat.
You know you can be pompous andand I think that's like a hyper
focus.
You know we'll hyper focus andthen all of a sudden we just go
(35:40):
boom, boom, that's it.
I need to break.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, no, definitely, definitely.
It's like, definitely, you kindof get to the end of it and
your brain's just done as muchas it can.
It's like a switch, it justgoes off?
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah, it does, and it's almost like say, if we have
I don't know, let's say it'slike okay, work, let's have
lunch.
Trying to get back into whatyou were before lunch, for
example, it can be incrediblydifficult For me.
It might be like I can't getback into it for another three
(36:17):
hours.
My brain is, but then I couldbe back in hyper focus again.
It's sort of weird how it sortof really works like that.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Or if you have like a whole, sorry, just if you have
a whole.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
No, you're right.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Hyper-focus day and you kick ass at work and your
boss is like, oh, that's thebest, and then the next morning
you can't even come in.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Yeah, yeah, totally, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
That cup emptied yesterday and I'm going to need
some time.
You know, yeah, totally,totally, totally.
It's almost like you know.
Sometimes, like Friday, let'ssay like by the time it gets to
Friday, you're like, oh my, andeveryone's like this.
It's like, oh my God, theweekend, you know, and it's just
good to relax and recharge,type of thing.
But I remember I used to onlydo four days a week.
(37:07):
I'm doing five days a week now.
And I'm like, oh my God, likedoing four days a week was so
much better for me mentally.
You know, now I'm sort of likewhat the weekend's over, I still
like, I still feel like I'm onthe recharge button.
Weekend's over, I still feellike I'm on the recharge button,
if that makes sense, you know.
But we should move on from that.
Can masking be a useful tool?
Speaker 3 (37:34):
that's, that's a good .
That's a good one.
I I think you can take two.
No, no, it's.
It's a good one.
It's it's.
I think you can take two toolsfrom it.
I think, at a fundamental level,masking when and this is kind
of like from all the academicstuff it's compensatory behavior
(37:55):
for not fitting in or astereotype bias, depending on
how you look at it.
So part of it is the utilityand this is from a utilitarian
stance.
So it's like, as an outcome, isthat it's something that we do
to fit in and that's more of asymptom of not having the right
(38:15):
structures and supports andaccommodations.
So it's like for us to get thebasic level of social well we
have to mask.
But then, if you look at itfrom the other point of view, so
the antisocial version ofmasking and a lot of people
don't look at it it's calleddark acting.
It's called dark acting.
(38:36):
So psychopaths, so anything onthe dark triad trait, which is
psychopathy, machiavellianismand narcissism.
Yeah, narcissism tends to usedark acting to get they want.
So they use this acting ormasking as a utility To get what
(38:57):
they want, type of thing.
Yeah, they use this acting ormasking as a utility.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
People like us To get what they want type of thing,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
So it's to manipulate and get the outcome they want.
On the other hand, we need touse it to fit in, because, I
mean, we're already excludedfrom a lot of things and the
best way we can get that is notreally being ourselves, but by
fitting in with the, theaccepted behaviors, like you
kind of said before.
(39:20):
Like, oh, at school you thoughteveryone thought you had it
together and you were the coolguy and all that, but it was
like deep down it wasn't.
It was part of driving behaviorwas to get that level of
acceptance.
Um, not a nefarious, nefarioustype of thing, it was just
that's what you were trying toget out of it and yeah, yeah
(39:42):
yeah, yeah, yeah totally, andyou know, kev, what sorry I'll
feed on john.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
What about yourself, mate?
Like what was some of you knowwhen you were like in your band
and stuff, was it like similarfor that, or is that more like
you could be more yourself?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
yeah, the band got better and my vocal performances
got far better when I justpulled the curtain down and
stopped all that nonsense oftrying to.
You know, because I was like itwas a very I was doing the sorts
of performances that othersingers were doing, but I was
doing it in a way that I hadstudied them and I'm thinking
mechanically about everythingthat I'm doing every minute of
(40:23):
every song and it distracted mefrom quality and all that kind
of stuff.
So as soon as I just went, I'mgoing to dance around like a
crazy person and stim on stageand I'm going to be really open
online about the fact that I'mautistic and ADHD and possibly
other things.
But you know, music's easybecause people are really
accepting and they likedifferent people and it made me
(40:43):
such a unique vocalist that waythat we became more popular and
so it was a really good thing.
But in dealing with venues,sometimes when you're touring
around, in dealing with peopleto do with work, especially
where sales are concerned, orjust a short interaction it's
not something I've ever forcedmyself to do for long periods of
(41:05):
time, but I do find sometimesthere's just a short interaction
that I need to have withsomeone at the shop or at work
and I'll just put it on the maskand because it just makes it
happen easier and I need to getan answer out of them or
something like that.
But I just don't recommend itas a long time, all the time,
kind of strategy, you know.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
So when I come up to visit, do you remember?
I'm coming up to visit you in,like, yeah, october, november,
okay, I'm glad because I wouldhave been homeless, I could have
gone to my parents house, but,um, I would have had to go all
the way from Redcliffe back downto Victoria Point.
But anyway, that's all anotherstory.
Will you be masking that wholetime on there?
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Not really.
No, it's.
You know it's little things andit's big things, and I'm still
learning when I'm masking.
I still haven't fully figuredit out.
And you know, there's thatidentity thing that you spoke
about, seamus.
I'm still figuring that out too, but it's starting to become.
You know, the more I marinatein this community and you know,
the podcast has been likeamazing for me.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Can I ask what you mean by the identity thing?
Well, you don't know what doyou mean?
The identity thing?
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Well, you get so used to masking.
You do it for so many years youdon't know what parts of you
are you really being you andwhat parts of you were learned
behaviors to become moreaccepted.
You know what I mean.
Wow.
So now it's like this thing.
Now there's like little things.
My friends know if we're in a,a club or whatever, and because
I'm fine when there's like aband on or I'm in the band
because it's one moving piece ofsound that just drowns out
everything else, if you knowwhat I mean.
But they're trying to talk tome and all I can hear is the air
conditioner two rooms away.
I can just say that to them andthey're like, oh okay, well,
(42:46):
I'll finish this conversationwith you later then.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
And they don't expect me and they understand that
they don't expect me or getupset with me if I can't focus.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
They understand that I'm having a if I can't focus.
That's interesting.
That's interesting because I'vesort of I suppose I've learnt a
lot about myself as well inregards to once I got diagnosed
with my ADHD, that I couldn't goto the shops at certain times
because there was just way toomany people and there's babies
crying and, you know, trolleysin my way and I just couldn't be
(43:20):
in this free for all, like youknow.
I just felt.
But now, when I've sort of gota better idea of what time to go
there or to get it dropped tomy boot, I now know that works
for me.
Seamus, what's it been like foryou?
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
It's funny because that was probably the big thing
that I kind of got out of it andit's kind of part of the reason
why I started studyingphilosophy.
Long story short and a friendof mine knows that kind of one
of my special interests is likemythology and I was like
absolutely ancient Egypt crazy.
(44:01):
When I was a child Got me theMyth of Sisyphus, thinking it
was like mythology and it's not.
It's basically anexistentialism book by Camus
Great read, by the way, and alot of it.
Like there's bits in it thatit's just so on point about
(44:24):
being autistic and especiallyabout the sense of meaning, and
it's like you kind of realisethat what you're doing is none
of it's for yourself and none ofit's things that you actually
get a lot of joy out of or anysort of meaning.
It's just purely to fit in.
So I'm acting this way to fitin, like that's the purpose.
(44:46):
It's not like, oh well, you knowI like doing this, so it's
actually I don't like doing thisand it's only doing that
fitting in.
I mean one of the the big onesthat I got out of Camus when he
said and this is the light bulbmoment for me when I thought, oh
, I am probably 100% autistic onthis one because I really
didn't come to terms to it untillike 2016, 2017, that he said
(45:12):
you'd be surprised how manypeople put so much energy in to
be appearing normal when they'renot.
And I'm just like that was me.
I may have muffed up the quotea little bit, but that's roughly
what he said and it's like forme.
It's like that identity bit,because the mask, you start
doing it, you're doing it allthe time and you lose who and
(45:36):
why you're doing it.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah, you're doing it all the time and you, like, you
lose who, who and why.
You're doing it.
Yeah, can we just, can I justtake a moment to point out that
amazing bloody sense of reliefwhen not just diagnosis, but
these things start to dawn onyou.
You're going, oh, okay, also alittle bit of a grieving process
as you learn.
You're like things could bevery different.
But, yeah, that I, I, you knowit's been so beautiful learning
(45:59):
more about it and having thesechats, you know, on the podcast
and yeah, it just and probablyvalidated well, probably
connecting with people similarwho have had a similar
experience.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
And you're sort of like because I always, always
say this I felt like when I wasin school I was the only
dyslexic person who wasstruggling and failing in school
.
That's what I felt.
But then once I opened up,especially to some people at
school, they're like oh yeah,man, I'm this.
And now I'm like, oh my God, Inever thought that in a million
(46:32):
years.
But then you sort of feel thatlike, like, oh, so it's not just
me who's going through this andit's almost a sense of relief,
but it's still some like somehard times back then because you
felt very lonely.
It was very lonely because youyou didn't know you're thinking
there's something not right withme.
(46:53):
You know, cool, cool, cool,cool, cool.
Sorry, did you have somethingyou wanted to share, shangers?
Speaker 3 (47:02):
Oh no, it's just.
Yeah, that made a lot of sense,what you said before.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
No, totally, totally Now.
You know, fodor and John wasactually talking about this when
we were getting the questionstogether and he said there's a
bit of an unmasking movementhappening at the moment.
What are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 3 (47:22):
oh I, I.
I think it's a reallyinteresting one because I I'm
probably going to say somethingthat's probably not not in line
with it.
But I think it's not so much anunmasking movement, I'm saying
it's more of an identitymovement where it's the
isolation of hey, this is notreally brilliant.
(47:44):
It's more of an existentialmovement, if you will.
It's saying that you knowautistic people exist or any
type of neurodivergent personexists and because of that the
movement's really identifyingthe behaviours from a
(48:05):
neurominority.
It's not necessarily unmasking,it's making.
It's like actually educatingpeople about them, and I think
that's a good thing.
Similar to what Frantz Fanondid with a lot of his cultural
context of like the mid-20thcentury.
So same sort of thing.
(48:26):
But yeah, for me it's like I'veseen all different types and I
think it's still a good thing,like getting education out there
about what a condition is, notjust from a dsm-4 or five or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Um makes a huge difference for acceptance and
actually like not burning outthrough masking but also not not
getting all of your learning onthis topic from tick tock yes
which is not which is not toinvalidate it, but I do see a
lot of influencers out there whoare You're right, and look, I
(49:05):
never disparage anyone who's notdiagnosed.
You know, I knew four yearsbefore I got diagnosed, but
pre-diagnosis you're not alwaysas super educated.
And just people in general onsocial media they're not always
super educated.
They might get some thingswrong and they shouldn't be
giving medical or mental healthadvice.
So, yeah, you've got to becareful about what, what you
(49:26):
choose, where you choose tolearn from.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Um, yeah, and it sort of rilesme a little bit because these
tiktokers will build like thesehuge followings because I know
maybe they look good in whateverthey're wearing or they do some
funny clips and that, but thenthey start becoming experts and
selling books and all of thisstuff and I'm like what the hell
(49:51):
?
There's people out here who'sdoing all this research and that
, who have the evidence behindthem and you know if, and it's
just, it's a real problem totell you the truth.
It's a real problem, but youcan get.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
This is what I mean by picking and choosing.
I mean, um that adhd loveaccount.
You know they're kind of likewhat you're talking about.
They've made funny videos,they're a couple um, they're
really beautiful, but butthey've learned a lot through
diagnosis and psychologists andso they they've genuinely
educated themselves and theyhave written a book which, um I
bought for my mom who's um hasfound out she's all dhd and um
(50:28):
uh, that, I know, is reallygenuine, genuinely helpful and
full of.
I can't wait to read it whenshe's done, you know, so it.
So it can go the other way, Ithink you're just going to pick
carefully you know who youchoose to listen to.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
But it just blows my mind that someone can do a funny
video or do like I was watchinga son do the other day and he
was just doing something, likehe was hiding behind a bin or
something and going I don't knowwhat it was, it was like an
ADHD-er.
When they're going out intopublic and they're hiding behind
a bin or something like thatGot thousands of views, you know
(51:02):
, I suppose it's, you know,funny and all of that type of
thing.
But then you know people arelike you know, all it would take
is that person to then giveadvice and people would be like
yeah, yeah, yeah, you're deadright.
And then a person who does havethe experience and knowledge to
come in and go actually that'snot right.
(51:22):
And then, because these peoplehave such a huge following,
they'll then attack you forbeing wrong when you're not
wrong you know what I mean,exactly, exactly, and it's even
even in the space.
Speaker 3 (51:35):
you get quite a few people like that.
They mark out their littleterritory and it's like they
become the pseudo expert in it.
And I've seen that a lotposting up on LinkedIn and Insta
and it's like a lot like Ithink it's like a fine line and
it's like even with a lot of themainstream media shows and that
(51:58):
I think a lot of them are alittle bit dangerous on how they
actually portray someneurodivergent conditions but
don't actually label it so likeGood Doctor, really good example
of it.
And to a second extent.
But the Good Doctor isn'tautistic, he's, he's, it's
(52:21):
savantism.
If you want to look at it, andit's like you know, I can't
memorize gray's anatomy.
If I could, I wouldn't be Iwould have been a doctor when I
was 12 years old, but, yeah,that hasn't happened yeah, and
you know, it's neurodiversity.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
You know, like all the autistic people are not the
same.
It's just, yeah, it'sfrustrating so you know, I just
quickly want to say, before wemove on, not to disparage any
social media influences we lovethem, we want to have more of
them on the show and we alsolove ready set squirrel in
particular.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
She's amazing yeah, yeah, yeah, and, like we said,
there are some good people doingsome really great stuff.
It's.
It's like who are those peopleyou know?
Um, they're sometimes cloudedbehind the crap that's out there
, the false crap.
I should say, um, cool, cool,cool.
So what has been yourexperiences around masking at
(53:16):
work?
Now, I know you and I spokeabout this when you and I first
caught up.
How has that been for you, oryour past experience, because I
know you went through a fair bitof stuff.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
Yeah, I think it's a really tough one.
Probably the best example of itis I've done kind of in
services for some businesseswhen I've worked there and I've
spoken about autism.
The thing that really shocksthem is that one in five are
(53:50):
neurodivergent and they all tendto ask and it's like there's
this idea that there's none inthe organisation and chances are
, statistically speaking, you'veprobably got one in five Will's
going to have something to sayabout this, I'm sure.
Yeah, no, it's reallyinteresting.
Yeah, and there's the otherpoint of view is that your
(54:13):
autistic specifically forautistic workers will be masking
.
So if they're not feeling safearound you, they're not going to
ask the right accommodations,they're not going to get the
right support and you're notgetting the best out of them,
and so it's got.
A knock-on effect is thatyou've got kind of liabilities
aside, you've got people whowill burn out very quickly and
(54:35):
for the amount of effort thatthey need to fit in where it's,
I don't think that's a good wayof managing anyone yeah, it's um
, it's a tricky one.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
It's actually interesting with the one in five
, I had someone say to me ohlook, we don't have dyslexic
people at our workplace.
And I'm just thinking, oh yeah,you've probably got, like you
know, a handful of them sittingin your office right now.
Um, it just shows how littleyou know, um, but that's the
type of mindsets we're stillliving with, um.
(55:09):
But you know what I'm saying?
There are some workplaces whoare really doing some great
stuff on it now, um, but not allyou know, and I it's just with
some of the workplaces I'mdealing with at the moment.
I'm just seeing it.
I'm just like oh my god, likethese guys have no idea users so
users, so I don't know what theword like had it just well.
(55:37):
It just blows my mind that whatwe're trying to work towards,
some people are saying thatthey're neuro inclusive, but
they're probably the worst onesyou know and it's like, oh my
god, like you've got so much tolearn, but you know they have
neuro inclusive quotas.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Perhaps.
Speaker 1 (55:56):
But that's about it you're exactly right, it's true
there's quotas that they do haveto get with some things, but
anyway, that's a whole.
That's a whole.
Nother podcast, um, but look,we're getting to the end.
But like, what advice could yougive to any neurodivergent
(56:19):
people out there about managingmasking in their life?
Speaker 3 (56:25):
I would probably start with a bit of reductive
absurdism and just really askwhy.
I think that the hardestquestion to ask is why you're
actually masking and there's,there's always an underlying
reason for it.
Um, you know it's, you know itcan be anything, um, a lot of it
(56:46):
.
I, you know, I've unpacked overthe last several years with,
with um, with my therapist, andfound out oh, by the way, you
know, it was discipline Out ofyou at high school or like, and
not just talking aboutpunishment, it's like things
like well, I would complainabout the lights, and well, the
(57:08):
explanation and this has gonethrough even to the workplace
that you're effectively gaslitto believe that's not a problem,
that you're effectively gaslitto believe that's not a problem.
So I would say part of it isthat underlying why are you
masking?
And it's usually social orsensory aspects to why you're
doing that.
Understanding that and it's notabout unmasking, it's just
(57:33):
understanding the why and Ithink it also gives a lot more
validity to what you're actuallygoing through and why things
are so hard yeah, no,interesting, interesting.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
What are your thoughts on that photo on john?
Speaker 2 (57:47):
um, something I was kind of going to say before
about the, the demasking, or, uh, the re-educating is perhaps a
better way to put it.
Like you're saying before,seamus, but be careful just
suddenly dropping the mask in apublic space, that could.
That in itself could betraumatic, you know, because,
(58:07):
although you may have to takesome time to get to know exactly
every aspect of what it isyou're doing to mask, there's
likely going to be a few thingsyou're aware of.
We're just like, okay, I'm justgoing to stop doing all these
things at once.
That could be an experience.
Do it responsibly, think aboutit carefully.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Ah no, interesting, interesting stuff.
Seamus, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Like you know, you're doingsome really starting to do some
really cool stuff out there.
You know, if people areinterested in some of the stuff
you're doing, where can theyconnect with your work?
Speaker 3 (58:41):
The best place is LinkedIn, so a lot of the works
I'm putting up on LinkedIn, soit's just like all these little
interesting thought experimentsthat I've picked up through my
studies and talking to otherneurodivergent people.
Speaker 1 (58:56):
So yeah, yeah, and you said you were going to be
releasing a book and I say thatthat's correct.
I'm actually in edit mode, I'mnot saying so.
Speaker 3 (59:09):
No, no, no, it's actually in edit mode at the
moment.
Yeah, cool, so I've written.
Yeah, yeah, I've done totallythe autistic hyper focus thing
and I've got about 200 000 wordsand I'm cutting that down, so
there'll probably be a couple ofbooks in in it.
Um, I've got about 80 throughediting before it gets sent on
(59:30):
to the next stage what's um?
Speaker 1 (59:32):
what's the book about ?
Speaker 3 (59:35):
uh, breaking down a lot of myths of autism, and I've
taken a bit of a philosophicalapproach to it, so looking at
kind of a lot of the kind of themythology around autism, like
masking, you know, fitting intoorganisations, some things about
(59:57):
culture, relationships there'ssome really fascinating stuff
going around about that.
So it's really about breakingdown those myths and using
universal myths like CassandraRing of Gyges that I picked up
through my philosophy course.
So I thought I'd use thatintroduction Unleash nice, yeah,
(01:00:20):
unleash it to the world.
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
Well, look, seamus.
Thank you so much for coming ontoday.
It's been really cool talkingto you.
You know I can't wait to go toyour big book launch, hopefully
in.
Sydney here.
Yeah, that should be cool.
Hopefully Photon John can comedown for that.
What do you reckon, Photon John?
Or is he on mute?
(01:00:44):
I think he's on mute.
Did you turn yourself on mute,mate?
I did, I did.
Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
No, that would be awesome.
I need to come down to Sydney.
I keep talking about it and notgetting around to it.
Totally, totally.
Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
But thank you so much seamus, it's.
It's been a pleasure, my friendoh, thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate.
It's just been, uh, so much funtalking about you guys no, no
problem, no problem.
Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
and for all of our listeners as well.
If you haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
We're available on loads ofdifferent places.
Also, check us out on all ofour podcasting platforms.
Wherever you listen to yourpodcasts, my name's Will Wheeler
, join with my main man, photonJohn, and this is NeuroDivergent
.
May it's until next time, yeah.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.