October 28, 2024 • 61 mins
In this episode of Neurodivergent Mates, we sit down with Nikki Searby to explore the critical intersection of psychological safety and neurodiversity in the workplace. Nikki shares valuable insights on how creating a safe, inclusive environment can empower neurodivergent employees to thrive.
For those interested in connecting with Nikki Searby and following her journey, stay tuned till the end for more details!
Questions
- Tell us a bit about yourself?
- Tell us a bit about your work?
- Can you explain what psychological safety means in the context of the workplace?
- What are some signs that a workplace may not be psychologically safe for neurodivergent individuals?
- How does psychological safety particularly impact neurodivergent employees?
- How can managers foster a sense of psychological safety for neurodivergent employees?
- What advice would you give to neurodivergent employees who are struggling to feel safe in their current work environment?
- For those interested in what you are doing, where can they connect with you?
All episodes are brought to you by neurodiversityacademy.com To check out more episodes, visit all our social media platforms or check us out where you listen to all your podcasts.
#Neurodiversity #PsychologicalSafety #InclusiveWorkplace #Neuroinclusion #WorkplaceCulture #Podcast #NeurodivergentMates #NikkiSearby
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Neurodivergent Mates.
I'm your host, Will Wheeler,and today I'm joined with Nikki
(00:30):
Searby.
Did I pronounce it right then,Searby?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
to talk to us.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Yeah, awesome, awesome, awesome.
I nailed it first time and thenwhen I'm on the spot, I stuff it
up, but I got it.
I the spot, I stuff it up, butI got it, I got it, I got it.
So today, what we're going tobe covering is workplace
psychological safety andneurodiversity.
Nikki, look, thank you so muchfor coming on.
When we caught up, gee, sixweeks ago or something, I don't
(01:00):
know, something like that.
It was just so cool to you know, get your perspective from, I
suppose, a law point of view andspeak about really what you're
working towards, all of thattype of stuff.
And I was like, yeah, I've gotto get you on, you know, because
I think what you're workingtowards is so important and
(01:23):
plays such a huge role.
But before we do get stuck intoit, I'll just do a little bit
of housekeeping.
If we haven't already done so,please subscribe, like and
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(01:48):
us, do whatever, write greatcomments, because it helps with
the algorithm.
Also, too, if you haven'talready done so, please check
out all the work that we'redoing at Neurodiversity Academy.
You can check that out atneurodiversityacademycom.
Actually got some really coolnews with that.
We actually have just releaseda new professional development
(02:11):
course for vet professionals, sovocational education
professionals there.
So if that is you, please reachout and we'd love to get you
onto the course.
Got some really great stuffthere as well.
Also, look, just a warning Someof the discussions may be
triggering.
If you need help, please reachout to a loved one or call
(02:32):
emergency services.
We are not doctors.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and strategies and
if you've got any questionsduring the live podcast which
we're sitting in right now, justfeel free to put those
questions in the comments andyou know, if they come through
in time, we will be able to talkto them or we'll be able to
(02:55):
answer them as part of thepodcast.
Nikki, are you ready to rockand roll, my friend?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Nice, nice, nice, nice.
So so before we do start,you're up in brisbane, um, in
indra pilly, and we're justtalking about this before you
got on like, if how?
Sorry, actually I'm not goingto even try to spell indra pilly
, but it looks like indraly,right, yep.
(03:23):
So so really good for umneurodivergent people.
So whoever decided to spell itthat way, um did a really
awesome job.
But anyway, let's get stuckinto this.
Let's start with um.
Look, share a little bit withour audience a little bit about
yourself.
I think it'd be great for themto find out who you are.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Sure, well, as you mentioned, I'm a lawyer.
I'm really just an adventurousbig kid.
I'm passionate about animalwelfare and raising awareness
for neurodiversity.
I'm always getting intosomething.
I'm always into some newactivity saving earthworms,
rescuing roadkill and dancingaround to whatever music is
(04:06):
playing in my head.
I grew up in the Philippines.
I came to Australia when I was17, moved around a couple of
places in Australia, went toboarding school in Victoria,
then I went up to Darwin and nowI'm in Brisbane.
In terms of you know my ADHD,adhd background, I was diagnosed
in 2006 and that's sort of youknow where my journey started
(04:30):
yeah, cool, cool.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Gee, you have moved around a bit from, so hang on.
Where did you start from whenyou first came to Australia?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I went to boarding school in Geelong oh okay, yep,
yep, yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Is that Geelong Grammar?
Yeah, yeah, okay, yep.
Great Geelong Grammar.
Are you a cat?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
supporter.
If I was an AFL supporter then,yes, I would be a cat supporter
.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, great, great, great.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
And then all the way up to Darwin, Gee that would
have been a bit of a cultureshock.
Right, it was a bit.
It was you shock ride, itwasn't it it was.
You know, I've gone from manilato melbourne, so I went from a
tropical, hot, humid place topretty freezing geelong and then
back up to hot and humid indarwin, and every every sort of
city has is quite different anddifferent vibe yeah, it would
(05:22):
have been a very big cultureshock coming from Manila to
Australia.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And I think as well, like I don't know, what was your
perception of Australia beforeyou come?
Was it like Australia is a hotplace?
Did you think Australia is ahot place?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well, I had visited Australia two or three times
growing up.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
My dad's Australian oh, okay, so you knew it pretty
well then.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, we'd sort of, you know, done summer holidays
like our school holidays, youknow two or three times when I
was growing up.
So I'd been to Australia ahandful of times before I moved
here.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Oh, that's okay, that's okay.
The reason why I ask is I meetsome people from overseas and
who have been to australia andthey're like, oh my god, we we
landed in melbourne in themiddle of winter and I was like,
oh, you know, I come from acountry where it snows, it won't
be cold.
And they're like it wasfreezing, you know, and I'm like
(06:22):
, yeah, australia can get prettycold at times.
Yeah, absolutely, melbourne'sgot a biting cold too yeah, and
like just the change, theweather just changes.
So so often down there, likewith like four seasons in one
day, and you know, for some ofour listeners overseas as well,
um, it does snow in australia,if you didn't know that, not
(06:45):
like all over Australia, but upon the mountains and stuff like
that.
But you know what?
I think it would be great ifyou shared with us a little bit
about the work you're doing.
I think when you first reachedout to me and we sat down, it
was just so, I suppose,enlightening enlightening, I
(07:06):
think that's the word I'm tryingto pronounce to sort of hear it
from, I suppose, a legalbackground type of thing and
what our rights andresponsibilities can be, and
especially from the safetyaspect as well.
So please share a little bitabout what you do.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Sure, well, as you know, I sort of have a full-time
job as well.
So please share a little bitabout what you do.
Sure, well, as you know, I sortof have a full-time job as well
, so in my legal capacity, but I, a couple of years ago, had, I
just wasn't doing so well withmy work and I, you know, was
just struggling a lot.
I knew I had ADHD because I'dbeen diagnosed quite a while ago
(07:48):
, but I didn't understand justhow much it actually affected me
.
When I was diagnosed therewasn't a lot of information yet
and I was diagnosed at a timewhen girls weren't expected to
have ADHD.
They believe girls didn't getit.
And also I was an adult.
(08:09):
So you know, you're supposed tooutgrow it if you do have it.
That was the prevailing theorythen.
So there wasn't a lot ofinformation and I had the
medication.
It worked sometimes, or a lotof the time.
I should say it worked maybe75% of the time for me, but
there would be times when it,you know, just didn't work at
all and it was like I hadn'ttaken anything.
(08:31):
Um, and then I went unmedicatedfor a few years because I kind
of you know, just it was toohard to regulate myself within,
like with the medication.
Um, and then I I was actuallydoing well at work and was given
promotion opportunities forthis after you weren't medicated
(08:53):
.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So you're doing pretty well at work and you
weren't medicated anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Just out of curiosity um well, so I was doing pretty
well at work.
I was taking medication on onan as needed basis, like it
wasn't something I was takingregularly, and when my script
ran out I didn't bother torefill it because I was taking
the medicine so infrequentlyanyway.
Unfortunately, what I now knowis that was really bad timing in
(09:23):
terms of development with ADHDand linked hormones and all of
that.
And then I went into a rolethat I thought I wanted and it
was actually the wrong role forme.
I didn't know that at the timeeither.
So I just sort of had thisperfect storm of being
(09:44):
unmedicated, trying to do a rolethat wasn't suitable for me,
and you know my challenges withhaving ADHD and my symptoms
getting worse.
So then I wasn't doing well and,yeah, I was struggling with all
(10:05):
of that.
Well, and, yeah, strugglingwith all of that.
And then I sort of tried torevisit actually I should
backtrack thanks to social mediaand everyone sharing all their
stories and symptoms andexperiences, that kind of
(10:25):
awakened my knowledge andperception to just how pervasive
ADHD symptoms can be.
So there were you know, there'sso many symptoms that people
were sharing and I'm watchingthese videos thinking I have
that.
I do that, all this stuff thatI didn't associate with?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
ADHD.
Oh wow, even considering thatyou'd had it for so long.
You had probably, so you wereprobably and I don't know if
this is the word to use you weresold on like ADHD person is
this?
And then you were learningabout all this other stuff
thinking, oh my God, that's meas well.
(11:08):
I didn't realize that was partof it, correct?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Exactly, that's exactly it.
So then I you know I sort ofrevisited ADHD.
There was a lot moreinformation you know that I
didn't find when I was firstdiagnosed.
So I've basically been on a newjourney of understanding ADHD
(11:35):
and the symptoms and how it canaffect us.
And you know even things like Imentioned earlier.
There were times when themedication wasn't working for me
.
I mentioned earlier, there weretimes when the medication
wasn't working for me and Icouldn't work out why.
I thought maybe I was eatingfood that was, you know,
(11:56):
negating it and that sort ofthing.
But the new research shows thatit actually has to do with
hormone levels and I think maybethat's why it didn't work for
me those times that it didn'twork.
So there's just so much moreinformation now.
There's so much more supportnow.
That wasn't around at the timeand so yeah, now that I know
(12:17):
that and my experience withtaking on a role that I thought
I wanted but now know was reallynot suitable for me, me had I
known that, maybe I wouldn'thave gone for that role because
I'm a safe, yeah, sorry go aheadwell, I I think you're about to
exactly say it I, I think youprobably went through a lot of
(12:41):
you know, you went for a rolethat you thought you could have
done.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Uh, it didn't work out.
And then we know how, I suppose, sensitive to rejection a lot
of ADHDers are.
So I'm assuming, and you know,I think, when something like
that happens, you almost doubtyourself.
You start to think, oh, I'llnever be able to do this or I'll
never be that correct.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
That's exactly right.
Yeah, and I guess, yeah, once Icame out of once the clouds
from all of that negativeself-talk and you know the I
guess, the anxiety anddepression that followed my
non-performance, I realised thatyou know, if I had known, maybe
(13:29):
I wouldn't have gone throughthat difficult period and maybe
I can help someone else byspreading the word, spreading
awareness, so that they canavoid what I went through or at
least, you know, learn from myexperience, maybe help them
(13:49):
through theirs.
And from there it all just sortof you know, discussing it with
people chatting to friends andthat sort of thing, you know,
recognized or came to myattention that there was this
need to consider it and apply itin the workspace, particularly
(14:10):
given the legislation changeswith workplace health and safety
requirements.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, no, interesting , interesting.
Interesting Because I thinkwhen and I think as well,
especially when we look at itfrom a legal standpoint a lot of
neurodivergent people don'tknow where they stand, a lot of
the time they don't know what todo, or they may think that, oh,
(14:38):
this has happened, I felt likethis, but maybe that was my
fault, not the actual person whowas creating that harm, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Absolutely yes.
So yeah, there's a hugeeducation piece to be had across
the board.
You know, we're still learningabout symptoms and how to manage
them.
About symptoms and how tomanage them, where you know
(15:11):
people are getting diagnosed andrecognizing how much it affects
them, which was basically myexperience.
But there's also a bigeducation piece around the
employment side of things.
You know, most employers wantto have happy staff and support
their staff, but if they don'tknow, then they don't know what
they don't know and you knowthere's all of that, that comes
(15:33):
into play.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
It's almost like in the education space.
I think that what I see is thatsome education providers they
want to help, but unless you'vegot the right understanding and
knowledge to be able to knowwhat to do, you could be doing a
lot more damage than good, ifthat makes sense yeah, it does
(15:56):
yeah totally, you know, I think.
Moving on from that, can youexplain what psychological
safety means in the context ofthe workplace?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Sure, well, sorry.
In the context of a workspace,psychological safety refers to
the environment where anemployee can feel comfortable
being themselves, where they canfeel comfortable taking risks
or, you know, acting up in ahigher role, speaking up when
(16:30):
they see something that theydon't agree with, or even where
they feel they can make animprovement somewhere, having
the confidence to speak up aboutthat without feeling like
they're going to be put down orreprimanded.
You know, just being able tospeak up without the fear of the
(16:51):
negative consequences.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Or having to tiptoe around people.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Like, oh my.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
God, the manager's here today.
I really hope they're in a goodmood because I don't want to
have to, you know, because Ithink and you know, I had an
experience not long ago where Iwas dealing with some person and
this person was very hot andcold.
You just couldn't and I'vedealt with a few people like
(17:18):
that through my career, whereyou just don't know how they're
going to be on certain dates andit's like and I think, I think
you know, and I'm assuming youwould probably be the same if
you have a certain badexperience that could wreck your
week or it could even wreckyour career at that actual
(17:40):
workplace well, yeah, theanxiety that that would that
could induce.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
You know, it's almost better when you know what to
expect.
If you have a difficult personthat you have to work with I
mean, no one wants to work withthem, but at least if you know
what to expect, then you can,you know, manage accordingly.
But if they're hot and cold,it's hard for you to.
Well, how do you approach it?
(18:11):
How do you?
Speaker 1 (18:11):
approach it?
How do you?
You know, and I think a bigthing about it is, it's like
that's not our fault.
Do you know what I mean?
Like if and I think this iswhere, and I don't know, maybe
I'm wrong Would you say thatthis day and age, it's we're
(18:35):
seeing more workplace because of, like you know?
So, for example, let's takeEllen DeGeneres, for example
right, okay, so on TV she's likewas like this, like this?
Hey, look at me, I'm doingeverything for everyone.
I am just such a nice person,but behind the scenes she was
(18:56):
just big monster type of thing.
Right now, you know, I thinkthis day and age, it doesn't
matter who you are, that type ofbehavior just isn't acceptable.
Completely agree, you know, andyou know, if we're work, and I
think I, when I do come acrosspeople like that or workplaces
(19:19):
like that, I'm just like, oh mygod, these people are so far
behind the times that it justblows my mind.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, it is quite concerning, isn't it, when you
think about it.
We know that that existed onceupon a time, but it is
confronting when you come acrossit in this day and age.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, totally, and I think with social media as
well is that social media canpaint a picture of something
that actually isn't correct, ifthat makes sense.
Dealt with an organization thatwas everything that we're
(20:07):
talking about in a negativeaspect, but then on social media
, you're seeing all this, like,hey, look at us, we're this and
that, and you really want to geton social media and go no,
you're not.
You know, but you feel likeyou're lowering yourself to
their standards and it's just so.
(20:27):
It just blows my mind sometimesthat we just can't I don't even
know how to word it, but it'sstill going on and it's like we
need to.
You know, and I think this iswhere, especially when you and I
spoke ages ago, it's like well,what's the process we need to?
You know, and I think this iswhere, especially when you and I
spoke um ages ago, it's like,well, what's the, what's the
(20:49):
process we need to take, whatneeds to happen in this aspect?
You know, it feels like, um,certain things, um, uh, we just
don't know what's going on, youknow.
But to tell you the truth, Ithink that's where we can
probably move on to the nextquestion there, because I think
this would sort of slide into it.
(21:09):
Well, what are actual somesigns that a workplace may not
be psychologically safe forneurodivergent individuals?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
So probably a big thing is you pick it up in
conversations, you'll feel itfrom.
You know the way a managermight speak about certain topics
If there's a dismissiveattitude towards you.
Know issues like or sorry, notissues, but like conversations
(21:43):
around say neurodiversity, youknow if people are dismissive
about it.
If you hear comments likeeveryone has ADHD today, these
days, those sorts of comments,you can sort of see how that is
probably not the mostopen-minded or inclusive
(22:06):
environment in itself.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, and would you also say?
For example, I was dealing withan organisation a while back
and the people I was consultingwith they would tell me how they
would hear the manager in, likethe office abusing people and
all of this type of stuff.
(22:29):
You know what I mean?
And I think this is where ouractions speak louder than words,
if that makes sense.
Well, obviously there werewords going on.
But this person probably doesn'trealise that, okay, they're
abusing someone, that hasnothing to do with everyone else
(22:52):
sitting in the office, but itactually has a lot to do with
everyone else sitting in theoffice because, especially
neurodivergent people, they'restarting to go.
Oh my God, I think that's goingto be me shortly, you know.
Or the other managers in theoffice think I need to be like
that because my manager whatevergeneral managers what are the
(23:14):
general managers like that aswell.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
Or you know you have theconcerns about, like, if you're
talking someone who is atmanagement level, then you have
people that either are theirpeers or you know a level down,
feeling like they can't doanything about it.
That goes to the heart of a,you know, psychologically safe
(23:42):
workplace.
If you can't feel, if you don'tfeel like you can speak up
about that behavior, that's sortof indicative that it's not a
psychologically safe workspace.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Do you know what else as well?
I reckon, like, if the leadersin the company and like,
actually it's hard to explainbecause, the way I look at, lead
not everyone's a leader.
So I don't describe, say themanagement as a leader, right,
sure, that's just my perspective.
(24:16):
So I don't describe, say themanagement as a leader, right,
that's just my perspective.
I believe that you need to earncertain things to be a leader
and all of that type of stuff,right.
And I remember I was working ina workplace one time and I
would go in every day orwhatever, and I would always
make sure I said hello to allthe managers.
Reason being the managers neversaid hello to to me ever, but I
(24:41):
always went out of my way tosay hello and and that was where
I was.
Like there, this place is toxic, do you know what I?
mean, because it's those littlethings that people pick up on.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Absolutely.
If you've got a manager thatgoes out of their way to say hi
to staff, it is just a generallyhappier.
It starts the day well.
You feel that connection.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly.
But um, you know, um, I'd say,moving on from that, like how
does psychological, how doespsychological safety particular
impact?
Speaker 2 (25:27):
neurodivergent employees oh, that's a that's a
big question, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
um well, we've sort of said a few little things yeah
what is it?
You know, I think it would beinteresting.
If you want to share, it ismaybe share like what you were
going through that time, um,when you were struggling at work
and all of that yeah, sure,well, actually, my, my sort of
(25:54):
experience within the workplacewas a more positive one, um,
unlike a lot of other storiesI've heard.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
So for me when I was struggling, it was more of a
personal um stress that I wasputting on myself because I knew
I wasn't performing.
I was unhappy with myself but Icouldn't bring myself to do the
work that all the challengesthat come with um, you know,
(26:25):
executive function issues andand time management and those
sorts of challenges that peoplewith ADHD have.
But when I was reallystruggling, my boss was actually
awesome about it came up to meand said look, I see you're
struggling.
How can we support you?
Which was the best thing youcould say, in my opinion one of
(26:51):
the best things you could say tosomeone who was struggling,
rather than saying you're notperforming, you need you to
perform.
You know, adding that extralayer of stress which a lot of
people would do, because amanager's job is to have
performing.
You know meeting performancetargets and so you can't.
You know, I wouldn't hold it.
I wouldn't have held it againstmy my boss if he had approached
(27:14):
it that way, but he actuallyapproached it the best way
possible, which was asking mehow I could be supported.
Unfortunately and this goesback to me revisiting my ADHD I
didn't know what I needed, so Idug myself into a bigger hole
because I kept saying I know I'mfine, I'll, I just need a
(27:38):
couple of days to get back ontop.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
And and of course, I didn't get back and you know
what I think that's such aninteresting point because you
know, and I think this is whereneurodiversity training.
Sorry, what's that noise Isthere like?
Is that thunder?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
That's thunder.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Oh my God, when are?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
you Into what?
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Into what?
What are you near Are?
You near a window or somethingyeah near a window.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I've got the board down behind me.
But it's.
It's that loud.
My screen actually flickered,just the oh my god that was.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
I thought it was like heavy breathing or something
like that.
Oh my god well, that's that's.
That's um typical, uh, brisbaneafternoon weather right, crazy,
crazy, crazy.
Oh well, there you go, thereyou go um so I just want to keep
you entertained.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, what?
Speaker 1 (28:38):
was I saying before I um what was, what were we
talking?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
about just um.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
So education and awareness yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes.
And this is where I I'm a bigbeliever in this type of, you
know, some basic neurodiversitytraining is better than no
neurodiversity training at all.
So when an employee does comeand says, hey look, I've got a
(29:06):
problem, hopefully the manageris able to then go oh my God,
yeah, let's put this into place,or this is what we need to do,
um, you know.
But with that being said, I'veactually worked with people
before who we have put, we'vedone training with them.
I knew that their personalityto like.
(29:27):
I knew they didn't wantanything to do with
neurodiversity, because theytold me straight out um, but I
covered certain things like rsd,all of that type of thing,
because I knew they were goingto be a big problem, right, um,
but they completely ignored theadvice that I had given them,
type of thing, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
So they were just just didn't get it well, they
were just continuing to like.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
We spoke about acting in a manner that would make
other people look at them likeoh my God, that's going to be me
shortly.
I'm going to quit.
You know what, with theseleaders around, or these
(30:16):
management, this is never goingto happen here, you know, I just
find that with some workplaces.
You know, what would yourthoughts be from a legal
standpoint on that then?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Well, so that's, I suppose, where we are slowly
heading in the right direction.
With the developments toworkplace health and safety
regulations expanding to includenot just physical health and
safety, but also psychological,psychosocial health and safety,
(30:51):
businesses are now required toadd like consider psychological
safety under any of theirworkplace health and safety
policies and programs.
So we are moving in that rightdirection, but it's just going
to take time.
(31:11):
It's going to take time to getthe message out.
It's going to take time forpeople to shift their thinking.
It's going to take time forprocesses and frameworks to be
put in place and rolled out.
Still didn't embrace it or takeit into consideration when they
(31:35):
actually have, you know,penalties and risk on them.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
so actually an interesting point, right?
So if a workplace or someone, amanager at a workplace was to
do some training, for example,but then you know they filled it
out, they ticked the things andgot it all correct or whatever,
right, but then continued tothen act in a way that was
(32:06):
putting someone's psychologicalsafety in danger if that's the
right words Could that person?
Then could that be like asackable offence or what could
happen in that case there?
Because like you're doing whatyou're breaking what you've been
taught, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yeah Well.
So I suppose it's not astraightforward answer, but you
know, just as you would approacha physical workplace injury,
you would follow the same sortof principles where you would
first look at what policies andprocedures are in place, if
(32:49):
there are, if they do have somein place, you know, are they
adequate?
And if they weren't followed,why weren't they followed?
You would sort of look, go downthat path of investigating it
for one of a better expressionand then consider how severe the
breach is.
(33:10):
So you take all that sort of allthose factors into
consideration.
Um, but yeah, so it's.
It's definitely not, uh, notsomething to be taken lightly.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
You'd have all the penalties and risks and
obligations for ensuring a safeworkplace but let's say we've
got um the it's a neurodivergentperson that has made a
complaint about someone, right,um, would you know, hr, and all
(33:44):
of that then have to do liketheir, um, what do you call it?
Um investigation, all of that,um, you know, would there need
to be a different route that'snow in place, compared to say
what a neurotypical person wouldbe going through in that aspect
?
Do you know, are they takingthat into place?
(34:04):
Do they know about it?
You know, because the wholeinvestigation part that could
just be as stressful.
Yeah, exactly you know, and itfeels like they wouldn't even
know what they're doing as well.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah, absolutely so.
That's a great point and, yes,it is something that also needs
to be taken into consideration.
Whatever processes andprocedures you have a business
is implementing, it really needsto be across the board that it
takes into considerationneurodivergent communication and
(34:43):
needs.
Just as a practical example,let's say you have a
non-performing staff member whois neurodivergent.
They're non-performing becausethey're struggling with certain
conditions, for example, and ifyou could provide them with
workplace accommodations, thenperhaps they, you know, wouldn't
(35:05):
be falling behind.
But then, if you're not awareof that, you're probably going
to treat that staff member as anon-performing employee and put
them through a performancemanagement program when they
probably didn't need to be onthat, if they could have needs
(35:27):
addressed, if there wascommunication there, if they
felt that they could talk to thecompany, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Well, it's actually interesting.
You say that because I remembera few years ago, like I was at
like a pitch night for a lot oftech companies and, like I don't
know, there's always heaps ofHR tech companies out there or
trying to start.
I've never seen so many HR techprojects in my life.
(35:59):
But I remember I was speakingto one of these people who was
part of this organisation, whowas creating some app or some
program or something and think,um you, it was gonna show like
peaks in performance and lows inperformance and all of that.
(36:22):
And I said they said, oh, youknow, if the person goes below
this, they'd be able you know,we'd be able to go.
Okay, we need to step in here,and all of that.
And I I was like, well, hang on, with a neurodivergent person,
you could have that.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
You would have those bits and drops.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
yeah, yeah yeah, exactly, and that may not mean
that they're not performing.
Maybe, you know, and, like wespoke about before, maybe
there's certain what's the wordI'm looking for, like, um,
adjustments in place or supportsin place for them to be able to
(37:01):
, to, to reach that.
So if we're just basing itbased on oh my god, there's,
they're low, they're low here.
We need to now step in, insteadof like going, hey, now you
need to pick up the pace orwhatever, instead of
implementing these other thingsum, and you've just stress and
(37:22):
anxiety and they're unraveling,mentally unraveling, because
they're so, you know, stressedabout it well, it was
interesting when I spoke to thisperson, because they're like oh
, we never thought about it likethat and I said well yeah, yeah
, you know, because they'rebuilding it based on whatever
you know.
(37:42):
They're probably not thinking ohwow, we've got different types
of brains in our, or differenttypes of people in our workforce
.
Is our stuff matching thosepeople's?
I suppose peak performance andweaknesses and stuff?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
yeah, yeah, that's, that's really.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Um, yeah, just that's quite boggled mind boggling
that well, to tell you the truth, I had had some wines at that
point, so I was getting intosome, like I was getting into
some pretty big well, not stuckinto them.
I was having some goodconversations with them and
everything.
But it was really opening up mymind and going oh you know,
(38:26):
have you thought about this,because this could actually
happen?
Speaker 2 (38:30):
um, you know, uh well , you know, even even on that,
like just a lot of these, um,you know, programs, platforms,
policies, procedures, they're,they're really um, they're sort
of written or geared for someonewho is neurotypical in mind.
(38:51):
You, if you have anon-performing worker, who is a
neurotypical worker, you wouldput them on a performance
management plan.
That performance managementplan is written for someone who
is neurotypical non-performing.
If you put someone who isneurodivergent, who is
non-performing, even if they ifthey, you know, let's say they
(39:15):
deserve to be on a performancemanagement plan, the performance
management plan is usually nottailored to their needs either.
So you're basically getting adouble whammy.
You've got someone who may ormay not need to be on a
performance management plan, butthey're put on a performance
management plan.
That's not.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
It's just not Right for them.
So then you're adding a furtherlayer of difficulty.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
They're then being told they're, you know, a bad
staff member.
They're stressed, so they'renot going to be able to satisfy
like they're going to performeven worse well, do you know
what right it's?
Speaker 1 (39:58):
it's interesting that we're talking about performance
management plans and everythingright.
So I remember a few years ago Iwas dealing with a corporate
company actually up in brisbaneand um, I won't name the company
I'm getting into a lot oftrouble, probably best not to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly whenwe're talking about legal stuff
and everything.
But you know, it wasinteresting because they reached
(40:21):
out to me.
They said, look, we've got thisperson here.
They're not performing.
You know, we've got them on aperformance management plan,
this, and that we want you tocome in and coach them so they
can get up to you know speed.
And I was just like, okay, andthe hardest thing was to get
(40:44):
information about why the personwas the way.
They were okay, so theworkplace were like thinking, oh
, all we need is a coach to comein help this person get up to
speed and then they will beright.
Right, but what was and thewhat the problem was?
(41:05):
And I knew it straight from thebeginning.
But they were like, no, no, no,we can't tell you that or
whatever.
So I just was going in thereand I got to a point where I was
just like talking with the guygoing look, I'm just going to
sit here for an hour and talk toyou about the boxing and UFC
and all of that, because I knowyou can do what you can do.
(41:26):
It's just your workplace isn'tadapting your environment to
best help you.
Now, the person had a managerwho hated them all right because
they were different to all therest of them.
This manager was like you know,just like very, very much about
(41:51):
themselves type of thing andyou need to conform to do.
You know what I mean.
So there was no working withthat.
That manager had then turned alot of the other team against
this person and they were.
They actually got to a pointwhere they had a vote to vote
the guy out of the business andit took a partner to step in and
(42:16):
go hang on, hang on.
This isn't right.
And if it wasn't for that onepartner giving me a call and
saying look, this is what'sgoing on, and he this partner
opened up to me about everything.
And I said and this partneropened up to me about everything
, and I said that's your problem, right there, the manager is
(42:37):
the problem?
I'm telling you right now if youchange, I said, this person, I
said they're not going toperform.
When you've got people tryingto vote them out, you're putting
them on a management plan andeveryone in their team hates
them.
Of course they're not going to.
Anyone wouldn't perform underthat right.
I said what you got tounderstand is that if you get
(43:01):
someone who can work in withthis person and see, okay, we've
got some great skills here, wejust need to work in with this
person, not not feeling thatthey, um, uh, can't be open with
them, I said you're gonna seeso much come out of this person.
So what they ended up doing waschanging this person to a
(43:23):
different manager, and that wasit.
You know what I mean it's likeyou paid me they seriously paid
me for six months to go in thereand like all they had to do was
go.
What do you think the problemis, will?
And I would have said it's themanager.
We need to change the managershere.
And that's what it was.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
That's crazy, but that actually ties in with you
know one of the challenges umpeople with neurodivergent
conditions experience like theydo.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
there is a higher risk of experiencing bullying,
and he just gave a very clearexample of that and, and you
know what, this is now wherethat person, that partner who
gave me a call and said, look, Iwant to.
He had nothing to do with likeall this, he just stepped in for
this guy.
(44:18):
That's leadership.
Do you know what I mean when Italk about leaders?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
that's a leader right there, you know, and that's
where really all of them in theworld exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
So when we've got these allies in companies and I
think a big thing with it's soimportant you don't have to be
neurodivergent to be an ally oreven just having some
understanding about it is sovital to be able to help these
people who don't have the voiceyou know, and it took this
(44:52):
person stepping in that reallyhelped.
It changes a person's life ifthat makes sense.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Well, it sounds like it was a great and happy you
know.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah, it was sort of like, towards the end I was like
dude, I'm just going to sithere and talk to you about the
boxing because these idiots,your bosses, don't even want to
talk to me about what they needto do.
And we would have had it solvedlike that.
But I think this actually tiesin well for the next question
how can managers foster a senseof psychological safety for
(45:25):
neurodivergent employees?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
um, well, I suppose the the first step or the
biggest thing we need to, youknow, have a manager consider is
just open communication, um,you know, actually develop some
empathy and understanding whichcan really only come from them
having that open communicationand getting educated and just
(45:52):
costing their mind to the factthat there are people who are
wired a bit differently.
The way I explain how I'vereconciled my adhd and how I
don't quite fit in, or you know,in, in this world is it's I
describe it as being left-handedin a right-handed world I am
(46:13):
left-handed.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Actually I I am, I'm left-handed, but I'm actually
I'm ambidextrous.
Okay, so I have the best ofboth worlds, sort of, but like
yeah you go.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Did you have to work to get there?
No, it just happened, naturally.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
It was just like my mum would be like hey, Will, do
you realise that you're doingthis?
I'm like what, no, do yourealize that you're doing this?
I'm like what, no?
Or like I would say, forexample, I'd iron and I'd iron
with both hands.
I didn't realize that peopleonly iron with one hand.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Yeah Well, so I actually came up with that.
I reconciled it for myselfbecause my dad's left-handed and
his right hand isn't fullyformed, like his fingers are
sort of half developed.
He was born that way, so he isleft-handed.
(47:11):
But I remember when I wasyounger he was telling me that
when he was in school it was ata time when you were forced to
write with your right hand andhe was being forced to write
with his right hand even when hedidn't have a, you know, he
didn't have full fingers.
And so I said and how?
And then he told me thateventually they allowed him to
(47:33):
use his left hand and it was alot easier for him.
And that kind of, I guess, ishow I reconciled it for myself.
That you know, if you'releft-handed, being told you have
to write with your right hand,you'll get there, you'll manage
to do it.
But your penmanship is nevergoing to be as neat and tidy and
(47:55):
clear as it would have been ifyou were right-handed and clear
as it would have been if youwere right-handed.
You're exhausted from the extraeffort of trying to write with
your right hand when you'releft-hand dominant and you have
all that negative programmingthat comes from everyone telling
you oh, your handwriting isreally bad and you know you're
writing too slow, and all thestuff that comes with that.
(48:18):
So that's sort of how I came tounderstand my challenges, and
so, yeah, hats off to dad forgiving me the the way of the way
to do.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
You know what I've actually, I've actually met a
lot of people who obviously alittle bit older than myself,
who, um, yeah, they wereleft-handed and their right hand
.
I'm like, oh, do you want to goback to left hand?
They're like, I've just beendoing it for so long now that
I'm used to my right hand, youknow.
(48:52):
But honestly, like if I was togo you know what, tomorrow I'm
going to start writing with myright hand no, I would never be.
I think it's because I'm tooold now writing with my right
hand.
No, I would never be.
I think it's because I'm tooold now too.
You know, maybe if I had doneit when I was younger, maybe,
but I've tried to, like Iwouldn't even know how to hold a
pen properly.
Like I don't know, I just, butwho cares?
(49:15):
Like I don't know, but likeit's sort of straight, like this
is sort of going a bit offtopic, but like that's not like
you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, it'ssort of like it's just but it
was actually a really good waythat you described it actually
but like it's so interestingwhen you do see people who are
left-handed or whatever thesedays and it stands out, you're
(49:40):
like, oh my God, yeah, yeah,you're just like me, you know.
But when you're ambidextrous,that's a whole other thing
altogether.
Yeah, I didn't realise that,like that means you're using
both sides of your brain.
I don't know if I'm pronouncingit right, that you're using
both sides of your brain orsomething, or I have no idea.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
I think they've debunked that concept today
there you go, there you go Ithink.
Well, I think what they say isthat, um, you're using your
whole brain.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know,
I don't know, I just know itjust comes naturally to me, so
that that's the main thing.
But but, um, sorry, I don'tknow.
I just know it just comesnaturally to me, so that's the
main thing.
But sorry, I don't think wereally answered the question,
did we?
How can managers foster a senseof psychological safety for
neurodivergent employees?
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Well, yeah.
So we sort of got halfwaythrough and then started
chatting yeah that all good.
It really comes down toeducation and training and just
recognizing that people dooperate a bit differently.
Some people like the coffeeblack, Some people like the flat
white.
We're all a bit different.
(50:52):
Recognizing that we operate abit differently, that you know,
being able to offer or providereasonable workplace
accommodations that might assistthat employee.
The information is out therenow.
It's available if we look forit.
(51:13):
You know it's being developed,we're learning more being
developed.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
We're learning more.
It's actually interestingbecause I finished developing
this course, um for vocationaleducation, um professionals and
I was adding in a whole bunch ofstats and all of that and you
could actually see where a lotof the diagnosis of, like
anxiety and certain neurologicalconditions well, yeah, how
(51:44):
they're they're rising.
Right, and I actually said I'mlike the reason why they're
rising is that we're having abetter understanding about what
they actually are and people aregetting diagnosed.
All of that and those numbersare only going to grow, you know
.
So we do need to have things inplace because, you know, if
(52:08):
people don't, I think, speakingabout it from the law
perspective, this is where wecan be looking at lawsuits,
because it's discrimination, allof those types of things.
So, if workplaces keep puttingit in the too hard basket, what
they're going to find is thattheir competitors are going to
start getting on top of this andthey're going to fall behind.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Yes, well, even worse , if they keep putting it in the
too hard basket, they'll have astaff member who actually
experiences um, you know thenegative effects of that ends up
with a major issue.
And then they have a workplace.
You know, work cover claimagainst them, against the
(52:54):
business, because they'veallowed it to happen yeah, yeah,
crazy, crazy, crazy.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Now, what advice would you give to neurodivergent
employees who are struggling tofeel safe in their current work
environment?
Speaker 2 (53:08):
This is a really challenging question because at
the moment I keep hearing a lotof really bad horror stories
about experiences people havehad when they've approached
their managers, when they've, ifthey've been diagnosed, where
they've disclosed theirdiagnosis, it's actually been
(53:29):
detrimental to them, um.
So yeah, it's a challenging one.
I think that people would needto just really need to consider
the benefit.
Sorry, I should say they shouldconsider.
You know their situation andhow a disclosure would benefit
(53:52):
them.
But I suppose the short answerto your question is there are
support services out there.
The short answer to yourquestion is there are support
services out there.
You know we've got a few groupslike the Black Dog Institute,
lifeline, if they are strugglingat that level, to that extent,
(54:18):
but if they have someone withintheir workplace, like the
partner you mentioned at thatcompany.
If there is someone within thecompany that they could speak to
and champion for them, yeah,that would obviously open the
(54:38):
door for conversations.
If they can have a meeting withtheir manager, explain you know
what they're experiencing itreally means you have that
conversation.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
Have you heard of like?
Are they called ERGs, employee?
What does that stand for?
An ERG like an employee,something, group, responsibility
group.
So I think what it is is likediverse community of people come
(55:16):
together and then they'll talkabout certain issues that are
going on which can then beimplemented into the workplace.
I think, like Microsoft dostuff.
I think it's what it's calledan ERG or something like that.
Have you heard that term before?
Speaker 2 (55:31):
I haven't heard that term.
I was actually going to suggestthat a staff member could look
at if there are any employeeassistance programs EAPs within.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
But this is sort of different from an EAP, because
an EAP is almost like aconfidential type of thing.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
Yes, and that's an external support.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah, where an ERG is almost like a committee getting
together, going.
Look, we need to start doingthis.
We need you know.
Know, when we're doinginterviews, for example, the
neurodivergent people are reallystruggling because we're not
doing this or whatever.
Do you know what I mean?
And and they actually invitenot just neurodivergent people
(56:16):
to the table.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Everyone can come to the table type of yeah, yeah,
that that would be a great I'mactually gonna.
Speaker 1 (56:23):
I'm actually, I really want to know what it,
what it was.
I was trying to think of um ume e r g um, meaning uh,
hopefully that was what I waslooking for.
Hang on, meaning in corporate,here we go.
(56:47):
Yeah, employee resource groups.
So employee resource groups arevoluntary Employee-led groups
whose aim is to foster a diverse, inclusive workplace aligned
with the organisation they serve.
There you go, yes.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
I've heard of.
For example, I was at an eventput on by one of the top-tier
firms and they've actuallyorganised a neurodiversity group
within the company.
So it's definitely a anevolving piece.
I think we're just, I thinkit's just starting for us here
(57:27):
in australia.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
I think we've got a long way to go yeah, yeah, I, I,
and I think as well, like someof the problems I've sort of
found is that there are someprograms that have happened
within some organisations whichdon't actually align with what
it is we're trying to worktowards, that actually sometimes
(57:50):
do more damage than good.
But everyone sees that as like,oh my God, we're doing this,
you know this, and that it'slike well, hang on, hang on, we
actually want this.
It's not that you know, um,which can be, which can be quite
difficult there, but look,we're getting to the end of the
the show here, um, you know,thank you so much for coming on
(58:13):
and having a chat with me, um,but where can people connect
with you and find out more aboutyour work?
Speaker 2 (58:20):
Well, I've got a site .
It's just a simple one-pagerwhere people can contact me.
It's adhdbrainstormcomau.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
You know what?
I know that you probably didn'thave a storm going on outside
there.
You probably have music goingon.
Speaker 2 (58:38):
I knew that happened.
Yeah, because of adhdbrainstorm right every time I've
told people that I, you know,that's the name I, I decide, I
settled on everyone's.
Oh my god, that's exactly,that's perfect.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
That's exactly what goes on in my head because out
of curiosity do you drive towork or do you catch the train?
Speaker 2 (59:04):
Also, I usually drive , but at the moment I'm doing
the Black Dog Institute's OneFoot Forward Challenge, so I've
been walking.
Speaker 1 (59:12):
They're walking.
Speaker 2 (59:14):
I've done a couple of days where I'll ride the bus in
and then walk home and thatsort of thing.
Oh yeah, done a couple of dayswhere I'll ride the bus in and
then walk home and that sort ofthing.
Oh yeah, so I'm.
I'm at 130 kilometers of my 150kilometer commitment.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
Sorry, can I ask right coming from Toowong and
Indooroopilly is Ziggy the bagman still there?
Yes, he's still there yes,ziggy the bag man, all right.
So for those of you who don'tknow so, ziggy is a homeless man
who lives in to wong um uhturinga, really turinga.
(59:49):
Well, yeah, turinga up near theI used to see him up near the
hungry jacks there, yep stillthere, oh okay.
okay now he's obviously someonewho's got a lot of mental issues
, all of that, and he collectsand forwards a lot of bags and
stuff like that, and he'sactually quite a real famous
person in the area, correct?
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Yes, he has a lot of support in the community and so
on some of the Facebook groupsfor the area people will comment
saying you know, I reached outto Zinni today and brought him
some food If anyone can bringhim X, y, z, you know thing he
might need.
Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
So he's supported by the local community in that way,
it's like he's sort of likejust part of like that area.
If that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
He's very famous yeah , I remember there was, before I
moved, that, um, you know,there was some business that was
trying to get rid of him andlike get him to move on, and the
local community actually saidno and yeah, let him stay.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Power to the people, eh power to the people go, Go
Ziggy right, Look.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for jumpingon today.
I hope you enjoy Thanks forhaving me.
Yeah, no problem.
No problem, I always lovegetting people on and having a
chat, but no, thank you so much.
And if you haven't already doneso, please subscribe, like and
(01:01:17):
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
My name's Will Wheeler and thisis Neurodivergent Mates.
Till next time.
You're listening to NeuroDivergent Mates.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of Neurodivergent Mates.
I'm your host, Will Wheeler,and today I'm joined with Nikki
(00:30):
Searby.
Did I pronounce it right then,Searby?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
to talk to us.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Yeah, awesome, awesome, awesome.
I nailed it first time and thenwhen I'm on the spot, I stuff it
up, but I got it.
I the spot, I stuff it up, butI got it, I got it, I got it.
So today, what we're going tobe covering is workplace
psychological safety andneurodiversity.
Nikki, look, thank you so muchfor coming on.
When we caught up, gee, sixweeks ago or something, I don't
(01:00):
know, something like that.
It was just so cool to you know, get your perspective from, I
suppose, a law point of view andspeak about really what you're
working towards, all of thattype of stuff.
And I was like, yeah, I've gotto get you on, you know, because
I think what you're workingtowards is so important and
(01:23):
plays such a huge role.
But before we do get stuck intoit, I'll just do a little bit
of housekeeping.
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(01:48):
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You can check that out atneurodiversityacademycom.
Actually got some really coolnews with that.
We actually have just releaseda new professional development
(02:11):
course for vet professionals, sovocational education
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Got some really great stuffthere as well.
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(02:32):
emergency services.
We are not doctors.
This is a space for sharingexperiences and strategies and
if you've got any questionsduring the live podcast which
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(02:55):
answer them as part of thepodcast.
Nikki, are you ready to rockand roll, my friend?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Nice, nice, nice, nice.
So so before we do start,you're up in brisbane, um, in
indra pilly, and we're justtalking about this before you
got on like, if how?
Sorry, actually I'm not goingto even try to spell indra pilly
, but it looks like indraly,right, yep.
(03:23):
So so really good for umneurodivergent people.
So whoever decided to spell itthat way, um did a really
awesome job.
But anyway, let's get stuckinto this.
Let's start with um.
Look, share a little bit withour audience a little bit about
yourself.
I think it'd be great for themto find out who you are.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Sure, well, as you mentioned, I'm a lawyer.
I'm really just an adventurousbig kid.
I'm passionate about animalwelfare and raising awareness
for neurodiversity.
I'm always getting intosomething.
I'm always into some newactivity saving earthworms,
rescuing roadkill and dancingaround to whatever music is
(04:06):
playing in my head.
I grew up in the Philippines.
I came to Australia when I was17, moved around a couple of
places in Australia, went toboarding school in Victoria,
then I went up to Darwin and nowI'm in Brisbane.
In terms of you know my ADHD,adhd background, I was diagnosed
in 2006 and that's sort of youknow where my journey started
(04:30):
yeah, cool, cool.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Gee, you have moved around a bit from, so hang on.
Where did you start from whenyou first came to Australia?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I went to boarding school in Geelong oh okay, yep,
yep, yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Is that Geelong Grammar?
Yeah, yeah, okay, yep.
Great Geelong Grammar.
Are you a cat?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
supporter.
If I was an AFL supporter then,yes, I would be a cat supporter
.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, great, great, great.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
And then all the way up to Darwin, Gee that would
have been a bit of a cultureshock.
Right, it was a bit.
It was you shock ride, itwasn't it it was.
You know, I've gone from manilato melbourne, so I went from a
tropical, hot, humid place topretty freezing geelong and then
back up to hot and humid indarwin, and every every sort of
city has is quite different anddifferent vibe yeah, it would
(05:22):
have been a very big cultureshock coming from Manila to
Australia.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And I think as well, like I don't know, what was your
perception of Australia beforeyou come?
Was it like Australia is a hotplace?
Did you think Australia is ahot place?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well, I had visited Australia two or three times
growing up.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
My dad's Australian oh, okay, so you knew it pretty
well then.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, we'd sort of, you know, done summer holidays
like our school holidays, youknow two or three times when I
was growing up.
So I'd been to Australia ahandful of times before I moved
here.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Oh, that's okay, that's okay.
The reason why I ask is I meetsome people from overseas and
who have been to australia andthey're like, oh my god, we we
landed in melbourne in themiddle of winter and I was like,
oh, you know, I come from acountry where it snows, it won't
be cold.
And they're like it wasfreezing, you know, and I'm like
(06:22):
, yeah, australia can get prettycold at times.
Yeah, absolutely, melbourne'sgot a biting cold too yeah, and
like just the change, theweather just changes.
So so often down there, likewith like four seasons in one
day, and you know, for some ofour listeners overseas as well,
um, it does snow in australia,if you didn't know that, not
(06:45):
like all over Australia, but upon the mountains and stuff like
that.
But you know what?
I think it would be great ifyou shared with us a little bit
about the work you're doing.
I think when you first reachedout to me and we sat down, it
was just so, I suppose,enlightening enlightening, I
(07:06):
think that's the word I'm tryingto pronounce to sort of hear it
from, I suppose, a legalbackground type of thing and
what our rights andresponsibilities can be, and
especially from the safetyaspect as well.
So please share a little bitabout what you do.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Sure, well, as you know, I sort of have a full-time
job as well.
So please share a little bitabout what you do.
Sure, well, as you know, I sortof have a full-time job as well
, so in my legal capacity, but I, a couple of years ago, had, I
just wasn't doing so well withmy work and I, you know, was
just struggling a lot.
I knew I had ADHD because I'dbeen diagnosed quite a while ago
(07:48):
, but I didn't understand justhow much it actually affected me
.
When I was diagnosed therewasn't a lot of information yet
and I was diagnosed at a timewhen girls weren't expected to
have ADHD.
They believe girls didn't getit.
And also I was an adult.
(08:09):
So you know, you're supposed tooutgrow it if you do have it.
That was the prevailing theorythen.
So there wasn't a lot ofinformation and I had the
medication.
It worked sometimes, or a lotof the time.
I should say it worked maybe75% of the time for me, but
there would be times when it,you know, just didn't work at
all and it was like I hadn'ttaken anything.
(08:31):
Um, and then I went unmedicatedfor a few years because I kind
of you know, just it was toohard to regulate myself within,
like with the medication.
Um, and then I I was actuallydoing well at work and was given
promotion opportunities forthis after you weren't medicated
(08:53):
.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So you're doing pretty well at work and you
weren't medicated anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Just out of curiosity um well, so I was doing pretty
well at work.
I was taking medication on onan as needed basis, like it
wasn't something I was takingregularly, and when my script
ran out I didn't bother torefill it because I was taking
the medicine so infrequentlyanyway.
Unfortunately, what I now knowis that was really bad timing in
(09:23):
terms of development with ADHDand linked hormones and all of
that.
And then I went into a rolethat I thought I wanted and it
was actually the wrong role forme.
I didn't know that at the timeeither.
So I just sort of had thisperfect storm of being
(09:44):
unmedicated, trying to do a rolethat wasn't suitable for me,
and you know my challenges withhaving ADHD and my symptoms
getting worse.
So then I wasn't doing well and,yeah, I was struggling with all
(10:05):
of that.
Well, and, yeah, strugglingwith all of that.
And then I sort of tried torevisit actually I should
backtrack thanks to social mediaand everyone sharing all their
stories and symptoms andexperiences, that kind of
(10:25):
awakened my knowledge andperception to just how pervasive
ADHD symptoms can be.
So there were you know, there'sso many symptoms that people
were sharing and I'm watchingthese videos thinking I have
that.
I do that, all this stuff thatI didn't associate with?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
ADHD.
Oh wow, even considering thatyou'd had it for so long.
You had probably, so you wereprobably and I don't know if
this is the word to use you weresold on like ADHD person is
this?
And then you were learningabout all this other stuff
thinking, oh my God, that's meas well.
(11:08):
I didn't realize that was partof it, correct?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Exactly, that's exactly it.
So then I you know I sort ofrevisited ADHD.
There was a lot moreinformation you know that I
didn't find when I was firstdiagnosed.
So I've basically been on a newjourney of understanding ADHD
(11:35):
and the symptoms and how it canaffect us.
And you know even things like Imentioned earlier.
There were times when themedication wasn't working for me
.
I mentioned earlier, there weretimes when the medication
wasn't working for me and Icouldn't work out why.
I thought maybe I was eatingfood that was, you know,
(11:56):
negating it and that sort ofthing.
But the new research shows thatit actually has to do with
hormone levels and I think maybethat's why it didn't work for
me those times that it didn'twork.
So there's just so much moreinformation now.
There's so much more supportnow.
That wasn't around at the timeand so yeah, now that I know
(12:17):
that and my experience withtaking on a role that I thought
I wanted but now know was reallynot suitable for me, me had I
known that, maybe I wouldn'thave gone for that role because
I'm a safe, yeah, sorry go aheadwell, I I think you're about to
exactly say it I, I think youprobably went through a lot of
(12:41):
you know, you went for a rolethat you thought you could have
done.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Uh, it didn't work out.
And then we know how, I suppose, sensitive to rejection a lot
of ADHDers are.
So I'm assuming, and you know,I think, when something like
that happens, you almost doubtyourself.
You start to think, oh, I'llnever be able to do this or I'll
never be that correct.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
That's exactly right.
Yeah, and I guess, yeah, once Icame out of once the clouds
from all of that negativeself-talk and you know the I
guess, the anxiety anddepression that followed my
non-performance, I realised thatyou know, if I had known, maybe
(13:29):
I wouldn't have gone throughthat difficult period and maybe
I can help someone else byspreading the word, spreading
awareness, so that they canavoid what I went through or at
least, you know, learn from myexperience, maybe help them
(13:49):
through theirs.
And from there it all just sortof you know, discussing it with
people chatting to friends andthat sort of thing, you know,
recognized or came to myattention that there was this
need to consider it and apply itin the workspace, particularly
(14:10):
given the legislation changeswith workplace health and safety
requirements.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, no, interesting , interesting.
Interesting Because I thinkwhen and I think as well,
especially when we look at itfrom a legal standpoint a lot of
neurodivergent people don'tknow where they stand, a lot of
the time they don't know what todo, or they may think that, oh,
(14:38):
this has happened, I felt likethis, but maybe that was my
fault, not the actual person whowas creating that harm, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Absolutely yes.
So yeah, there's a hugeeducation piece to be had across
the board.
You know, we're still learningabout symptoms and how to manage
them.
About symptoms and how tomanage them, where you know
(15:11):
people are getting diagnosed andrecognizing how much it affects
them, which was basically myexperience.
But there's also a bigeducation piece around the
employment side of things.
You know, most employers wantto have happy staff and support
their staff, but if they don'tknow, then they don't know what
they don't know and you knowthere's all of that, that comes
(15:33):
into play.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
It's almost like in the education space.
I think that what I see is thatsome education providers they
want to help, but unless you'vegot the right understanding and
knowledge to be able to knowwhat to do, you could be doing a
lot more damage than good, ifthat makes sense yeah, it does
(15:56):
yeah totally, you know, I think.
Moving on from that, can youexplain what psychological
safety means in the context ofthe workplace?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Sure, well, sorry.
In the context of a workspace,psychological safety refers to
the environment where anemployee can feel comfortable
being themselves, where they canfeel comfortable taking risks
or, you know, acting up in ahigher role, speaking up when
(16:30):
they see something that theydon't agree with, or even where
they feel they can make animprovement somewhere, having
the confidence to speak up aboutthat without feeling like
they're going to be put down orreprimanded.
You know, just being able tospeak up without the fear of the
(16:51):
negative consequences.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Or having to tiptoe around people.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Like, oh my.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
God, the manager's here today.
I really hope they're in a goodmood because I don't want to
have to, you know, because Ithink and you know, I had an
experience not long ago where Iwas dealing with some person and
this person was very hot andcold.
You just couldn't and I'vedealt with a few people like
(17:18):
that through my career, whereyou just don't know how they're
going to be on certain dates andit's like and I think, I think
you know, and I'm assuming youwould probably be the same if
you have a certain badexperience that could wreck your
week or it could even wreckyour career at that actual
(17:40):
workplace well, yeah, theanxiety that that would that
could induce.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
You know, it's almost better when you know what to
expect.
If you have a difficult personthat you have to work with I
mean, no one wants to work withthem, but at least if you know
what to expect, then you can,you know, manage accordingly.
But if they're hot and cold,it's hard for you to.
Well, how do you approach it?
(18:11):
How do you?
Speaker 1 (18:11):
approach it?
How do you?
You know, and I think a bigthing about it is, it's like
that's not our fault.
Do you know what I mean?
Like if and I think this iswhere, and I don't know, maybe
I'm wrong Would you say thatthis day and age, it's we're
(18:35):
seeing more workplace because of, like you know?
So, for example, let's takeEllen DeGeneres, for example
right, okay, so on TV she's likewas like this, like this?
Hey, look at me, I'm doingeverything for everyone.
I am just such a nice person,but behind the scenes she was
(18:56):
just big monster type of thing.
Right now, you know, I thinkthis day and age, it doesn't
matter who you are, that type ofbehavior just isn't acceptable.
Completely agree, you know, andyou know, if we're work, and I
think I, when I do come acrosspeople like that or workplaces
(19:19):
like that, I'm just like, oh mygod, these people are so far
behind the times that it justblows my mind.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, it is quite concerning, isn't it, when you
think about it.
We know that that existed onceupon a time, but it is
confronting when you come acrossit in this day and age.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, totally, and I think with social media as
well is that social media canpaint a picture of something
that actually isn't correct, ifthat makes sense.
Dealt with an organization thatwas everything that we're
(20:07):
talking about in a negativeaspect, but then on social media
, you're seeing all this, like,hey, look at us, we're this and
that, and you really want to geton social media and go no,
you're not.
You know, but you feel likeyou're lowering yourself to
their standards and it's just so.
(20:27):
It just blows my mind sometimesthat we just can't I don't even
know how to word it, but it'sstill going on and it's like we
need to.
You know, and I think this iswhere, especially when you and I
spoke ages ago, it's like well,what's the process we need to?
You know, and I think this iswhere, especially when you and I
spoke um ages ago, it's like,well, what's the, what's the
(20:49):
process we need to take, whatneeds to happen in this aspect?
You know, it feels like, um,certain things, um, uh, we just
don't know what's going on, youknow.
But to tell you the truth, Ithink that's where we can
probably move on to the nextquestion there, because I think
this would sort of slide into it.
(21:09):
Well, what are actual somesigns that a workplace may not
be psychologically safe forneurodivergent individuals?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
So probably a big thing is you pick it up in
conversations, you'll feel itfrom.
You know the way a managermight speak about certain topics
If there's a dismissiveattitude towards you.
Know issues like or sorry, notissues, but like conversations
(21:43):
around say neurodiversity, youknow if people are dismissive
about it.
If you hear comments likeeveryone has ADHD today, these
days, those sorts of comments,you can sort of see how that is
probably not the mostopen-minded or inclusive
(22:06):
environment in itself.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, and would you also say?
For example, I was dealing withan organisation a while back
and the people I was consultingwith they would tell me how they
would hear the manager in, likethe office abusing people and
all of this type of stuff.
(22:29):
You know what I mean?
And I think this is where ouractions speak louder than words,
if that makes sense.
Well, obviously there werewords going on.
But this person probably doesn'trealise that, okay, they're
abusing someone, that hasnothing to do with everyone else
(22:52):
sitting in the office, but itactually has a lot to do with
everyone else sitting in theoffice because, especially
neurodivergent people, they'restarting to go.
Oh my God, I think that's goingto be me shortly, you know.
Or the other managers in theoffice think I need to be like
that because my manager whatevergeneral managers what are the
(23:14):
general managers like that aswell.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
Or you know you have theconcerns about, like, if you're
talking someone who is atmanagement level, then you have
people that either are theirpeers or you know a level down,
feeling like they can't doanything about it.
That goes to the heart of a,you know, psychologically safe
(23:42):
workplace.
If you can't feel, if you don'tfeel like you can speak up
about that behavior, that's sortof indicative that it's not a
psychologically safe workspace.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Do you know what else as well?
I reckon, like, if the leadersin the company and like,
actually it's hard to explainbecause, the way I look at, lead
not everyone's a leader.
So I don't describe, say themanagement as a leader, right,
sure, that's just my perspective.
(24:16):
So I don't describe, say themanagement as a leader, right,
that's just my perspective.
I believe that you need to earncertain things to be a leader
and all of that type of stuff,right.
And I remember I was working ina workplace one time and I
would go in every day orwhatever, and I would always
make sure I said hello to allthe managers.
Reason being the managers neversaid hello to to me ever, but I
(24:41):
always went out of my way tosay hello and and that was where
I was.
Like there, this place is toxic, do you know what I?
mean, because it's those littlethings that people pick up on.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Absolutely.
If you've got a manager thatgoes out of their way to say hi
to staff, it is just a generallyhappier.
It starts the day well.
You feel that connection.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly.
But um, you know, um, I'd say,moving on from that, like how
does psychological, how doespsychological safety particular
impact?
Speaker 2 (25:27):
neurodivergent employees oh, that's a that's a
big question, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
um well, we've sort of said a few little things yeah
what is it?
You know, I think it would beinteresting.
If you want to share, it ismaybe share like what you were
going through that time, um,when you were struggling at work
and all of that yeah, sure,well, actually, my, my sort of
(25:54):
experience within the workplacewas a more positive one, um,
unlike a lot of other storiesI've heard.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
So for me when I was struggling, it was more of a
personal um stress that I wasputting on myself because I knew
I wasn't performing.
I was unhappy with myself but Icouldn't bring myself to do the
work that all the challengesthat come with um, you know,
(26:25):
executive function issues andand time management and those
sorts of challenges that peoplewith ADHD have.
But when I was reallystruggling, my boss was actually
awesome about it came up to meand said look, I see you're
struggling.
How can we support you?
Which was the best thing youcould say, in my opinion one of
(26:51):
the best things you could say tosomeone who was struggling,
rather than saying you're notperforming, you need you to
perform.
You know, adding that extralayer of stress which a lot of
people would do, because amanager's job is to have
performing.
You know meeting performancetargets and so you can't.
You know, I wouldn't hold it.
I wouldn't have held it againstmy my boss if he had approached
(27:14):
it that way, but he actuallyapproached it the best way
possible, which was asking mehow I could be supported.
Unfortunately and this goesback to me revisiting my ADHD I
didn't know what I needed, so Idug myself into a bigger hole
because I kept saying I know I'mfine, I'll, I just need a
(27:38):
couple of days to get back ontop.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
And and of course, I didn't get back and you know
what I think that's such aninteresting point because you
know, and I think this is whereneurodiversity training.
Sorry, what's that noise Isthere like?
Is that thunder?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
That's thunder.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Oh my God, when are?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
you Into what?
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Into what?
What are you near Are?
You near a window or somethingyeah near a window.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I've got the board down behind me.
But it's.
It's that loud.
My screen actually flickered,just the oh my god that was.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
I thought it was like heavy breathing or something
like that.
Oh my god well, that's that's.
That's um typical, uh, brisbaneafternoon weather right, crazy,
crazy, crazy.
Oh well, there you go, thereyou go um so I just want to keep
you entertained.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, what?
Speaker 1 (28:38):
was I saying before I um what was, what were we
talking?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
about just um.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
So education and awareness yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes.
And this is where I I'm a bigbeliever in this type of, you
know, some basic neurodiversitytraining is better than no
neurodiversity training at all.
So when an employee does comeand says, hey look, I've got a
(29:06):
problem, hopefully the manageris able to then go oh my God,
yeah, let's put this into place,or this is what we need to do,
um, you know.
But with that being said, I'veactually worked with people
before who we have put, we'vedone training with them.
I knew that their personalityto like.
(29:27):
I knew they didn't wantanything to do with
neurodiversity, because theytold me straight out um, but I
covered certain things like rsd,all of that type of thing,
because I knew they were goingto be a big problem, right, um,
but they completely ignored theadvice that I had given them,
type of thing, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
So they were just just didn't get it well, they
were just continuing to like.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
We spoke about acting in a manner that would make
other people look at them likeoh my God, that's going to be me
shortly.
I'm going to quit.
You know what, with theseleaders around, or these
(30:16):
management, this is never goingto happen here, you know, I just
find that with some workplaces.
You know, what would yourthoughts be from a legal
standpoint on that then?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Well, so that's, I suppose, where we are slowly
heading in the right direction.
With the developments toworkplace health and safety
regulations expanding to includenot just physical health and
safety, but also psychological,psychosocial health and safety,
(30:51):
businesses are now required toadd like consider psychological
safety under any of theirworkplace health and safety
policies and programs.
So we are moving in that rightdirection, but it's just going
to take time.
(31:11):
It's going to take time to getthe message out.
It's going to take time forpeople to shift their thinking.
It's going to take time forprocesses and frameworks to be
put in place and rolled out.
Still didn't embrace it or takeit into consideration when they
(31:35):
actually have, you know,penalties and risk on them.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
so actually an interesting point, right?
So if a workplace or someone, amanager at a workplace was to
do some training, for example,but then you know they filled it
out, they ticked the things andgot it all correct or whatever,
right, but then continued tothen act in a way that was
(32:06):
putting someone's psychologicalsafety in danger if that's the
right words Could that person?
Then could that be like asackable offence or what could
happen in that case there?
Because like you're doing whatyou're breaking what you've been
taught, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yeah Well.
So I suppose it's not astraightforward answer, but you
know, just as you would approacha physical workplace injury,
you would follow the same sortof principles where you would
first look at what policies andprocedures are in place, if
(32:49):
there are, if they do have somein place, you know, are they
adequate?
And if they weren't followed,why weren't they followed?
You would sort of look, go downthat path of investigating it
for one of a better expressionand then consider how severe the
breach is.
(33:10):
So you take all that sort of allthose factors into
consideration.
Um, but yeah, so it's.
It's definitely not, uh, notsomething to be taken lightly.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
You'd have all the penalties and risks and
obligations for ensuring a safeworkplace but let's say we've
got um the it's a neurodivergentperson that has made a
complaint about someone, right,um, would you know, hr, and all
(33:44):
of that then have to do liketheir, um, what do you call it?
Um investigation, all of that,um, you know, would there need
to be a different route that'snow in place, compared to say
what a neurotypical person wouldbe going through in that aspect
?
Do you know, are they takingthat into place?
(34:04):
Do they know about it?
You know, because the wholeinvestigation part that could
just be as stressful.
Yeah, exactly you know, and itfeels like they wouldn't even
know what they're doing as well.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah, absolutely so.
That's a great point and, yes,it is something that also needs
to be taken into consideration.
Whatever processes andprocedures you have a business
is implementing, it really needsto be across the board that it
takes into considerationneurodivergent communication and
(34:43):
needs.
Just as a practical example,let's say you have a
non-performing staff member whois neurodivergent.
They're non-performing becausethey're struggling with certain
conditions, for example, and ifyou could provide them with
workplace accommodations, thenperhaps they, you know, wouldn't
(35:05):
be falling behind.
But then, if you're not awareof that, you're probably going
to treat that staff member as anon-performing employee and put
them through a performancemanagement program when they
probably didn't need to be onthat, if they could have needs
(35:27):
addressed, if there wascommunication there, if they
felt that they could talk to thecompany, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Well, it's actually interesting.
You say that because I remembera few years ago, like I was at
like a pitch night for a lot oftech companies and, like I don't
know, there's always heaps ofHR tech companies out there or
trying to start.
I've never seen so many HR techprojects in my life.
(35:59):
But I remember I was speakingto one of these people who was
part of this organisation, whowas creating some app or some
program or something and think,um you, it was gonna show like
peaks in performance and lows inperformance and all of that.
(36:22):
And I said they said, oh, youknow, if the person goes below
this, they'd be able you know,we'd be able to go.
Okay, we need to step in here,and all of that.
And I I was like, well, hang on, with a neurodivergent person,
you could have that.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
You would have those bits and drops.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
yeah, yeah yeah, exactly, and that may not mean
that they're not performing.
Maybe, you know, and, like wespoke about before, maybe
there's certain what's the wordI'm looking for, like, um,
adjustments in place or supportsin place for them to be able to
(37:01):
, to, to reach that.
So if we're just basing itbased on oh my god, there's,
they're low, they're low here.
We need to now step in, insteadof like going, hey, now you
need to pick up the pace orwhatever, instead of
implementing these other thingsum, and you've just stress and
(37:22):
anxiety and they're unraveling,mentally unraveling, because
they're so, you know, stressedabout it well, it was
interesting when I spoke to thisperson, because they're like oh
, we never thought about it likethat and I said well yeah, yeah
, you know, because they'rebuilding it based on whatever
you know.
(37:42):
They're probably not thinking ohwow, we've got different types
of brains in our, or differenttypes of people in our workforce
.
Is our stuff matching thosepeople's?
I suppose peak performance andweaknesses and stuff?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
yeah, yeah, that's, that's really.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Um, yeah, just that's quite boggled mind boggling
that well, to tell you the truth, I had had some wines at that
point, so I was getting intosome, like I was getting into
some pretty big well, not stuckinto them.
I was having some goodconversations with them and
everything.
But it was really opening up mymind and going oh you know,
(38:26):
have you thought about this,because this could actually
happen?
Speaker 2 (38:30):
um, you know, uh well , you know, even even on that,
like just a lot of these, um,you know, programs, platforms,
policies, procedures, they're,they're really um, they're sort
of written or geared for someonewho is neurotypical in mind.
(38:51):
You, if you have anon-performing worker, who is a
neurotypical worker, you wouldput them on a performance
management plan.
That performance managementplan is written for someone who
is neurotypical non-performing.
If you put someone who isneurodivergent, who is
non-performing, even if they ifthey, you know, let's say they
(39:15):
deserve to be on a performancemanagement plan, the performance
management plan is usually nottailored to their needs either.
So you're basically getting adouble whammy.
You've got someone who may ormay not need to be on a
performance management plan, butthey're put on a performance
management plan.
That's not.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
It's just not Right for them.
So then you're adding a furtherlayer of difficulty.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
They're then being told they're, you know, a bad
staff member.
They're stressed, so they'renot going to be able to satisfy
like they're going to performeven worse well, do you know
what right it's?
Speaker 1 (39:58):
it's interesting that we're talking about performance
management plans and everythingright.
So I remember a few years ago Iwas dealing with a corporate
company actually up in brisbaneand um, I won't name the company
I'm getting into a lot oftrouble, probably best not to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly whenwe're talking about legal stuff
and everything.
But you know, it wasinteresting because they reached
(40:21):
out to me.
They said, look, we've got thisperson here.
They're not performing.
You know, we've got them on aperformance management plan,
this, and that we want you tocome in and coach them so they
can get up to you know speed.
And I was just like, okay, andthe hardest thing was to get
(40:44):
information about why the personwas the way.
They were okay, so theworkplace were like thinking, oh
, all we need is a coach to comein help this person get up to
speed and then they will beright.
Right, but what was and thewhat the problem was?
(41:05):
And I knew it straight from thebeginning.
But they were like, no, no, no,we can't tell you that or
whatever.
So I just was going in thereand I got to a point where I was
just like talking with the guygoing look, I'm just going to
sit here for an hour and talk toyou about the boxing and UFC
and all of that, because I knowyou can do what you can do.
(41:26):
It's just your workplace isn'tadapting your environment to
best help you.
Now, the person had a managerwho hated them all right because
they were different to all therest of them.
This manager was like you know,just like very, very much about
(41:51):
themselves type of thing andyou need to conform to do.
You know what I mean.
So there was no working withthat.
That manager had then turned alot of the other team against
this person and they were.
They actually got to a pointwhere they had a vote to vote
the guy out of the business andit took a partner to step in and
(42:16):
go hang on, hang on.
This isn't right.
And if it wasn't for that onepartner giving me a call and
saying look, this is what'sgoing on, and he this partner
opened up to me about everything.
And I said and this partneropened up to me about everything
, and I said that's your problem, right there, the manager is
(42:37):
the problem?
I'm telling you right now if youchange, I said, this person, I
said they're not going toperform.
When you've got people tryingto vote them out, you're putting
them on a management plan andeveryone in their team hates
them.
Of course they're not going to.
Anyone wouldn't perform underthat right.
I said what you got tounderstand is that if you get
(43:01):
someone who can work in withthis person and see, okay, we've
got some great skills here, wejust need to work in with this
person, not not feeling thatthey, um, uh, can't be open with
them, I said you're gonna seeso much come out of this person.
So what they ended up doing waschanging this person to a
(43:23):
different manager, and that wasit.
You know what I mean it's likeyou paid me they seriously paid
me for six months to go in thereand like all they had to do was
go.
What do you think the problemis, will?
And I would have said it's themanager.
We need to change the managershere.
And that's what it was.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
That's crazy, but that actually ties in with you
know one of the challenges umpeople with neurodivergent
conditions experience like theydo.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
there is a higher risk of experiencing bullying,
and he just gave a very clearexample of that and, and you
know what, this is now wherethat person, that partner who
gave me a call and said, look, Iwant to.
He had nothing to do with likeall this, he just stepped in for
this guy.
(44:18):
That's leadership.
Do you know what I mean when Italk about leaders?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
that's a leader right there, you know, and that's
where really all of them in theworld exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
So when we've got these allies in companies and I
think a big thing with it's soimportant you don't have to be
neurodivergent to be an ally oreven just having some
understanding about it is sovital to be able to help these
people who don't have the voiceyou know, and it took this
(44:52):
person stepping in that reallyhelped.
It changes a person's life ifthat makes sense.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Well, it sounds like it was a great and happy you
know.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah, it was sort of like, towards the end I was like
dude, I'm just going to sithere and talk to you about the
boxing because these idiots,your bosses, don't even want to
talk to me about what they needto do.
And we would have had it solvedlike that.
But I think this actually tiesin well for the next question
how can managers foster a senseof psychological safety for
(45:25):
neurodivergent employees?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
um, well, I suppose the the first step or the
biggest thing we need to, youknow, have a manager consider is
just open communication, um,you know, actually develop some
empathy and understanding whichcan really only come from them
having that open communicationand getting educated and just
(45:52):
costing their mind to the factthat there are people who are
wired a bit differently.
The way I explain how I'vereconciled my adhd and how I
don't quite fit in, or you know,in, in this world is it's I
describe it as being left-handedin a right-handed world I am
(46:13):
left-handed.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Actually I I am, I'm left-handed, but I'm actually
I'm ambidextrous.
Okay, so I have the best ofboth worlds, sort of, but like
yeah you go.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Did you have to work to get there?
No, it just happened, naturally.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
It was just like my mum would be like hey, Will, do
you realise that you're doingthis?
I'm like what, no, do yourealize that you're doing this?
I'm like what, no?
Or like I would say, forexample, I'd iron and I'd iron
with both hands.
I didn't realize that peopleonly iron with one hand.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Yeah Well, so I actually came up with that.
I reconciled it for myselfbecause my dad's left-handed and
his right hand isn't fullyformed, like his fingers are
sort of half developed.
He was born that way, so he isleft-handed.
(47:11):
But I remember when I wasyounger he was telling me that
when he was in school it was ata time when you were forced to
write with your right hand andhe was being forced to write
with his right hand even when hedidn't have a, you know, he
didn't have full fingers.
And so I said and how?
And then he told me thateventually they allowed him to
(47:33):
use his left hand and it was alot easier for him.
And that kind of, I guess, ishow I reconciled it for myself.
That you know, if you'releft-handed, being told you have
to write with your right hand,you'll get there, you'll manage
to do it.
But your penmanship is nevergoing to be as neat and tidy and
(47:55):
clear as it would have been ifyou were right-handed and clear
as it would have been if youwere right-handed.
You're exhausted from the extraeffort of trying to write with
your right hand when you'releft-hand dominant and you have
all that negative programmingthat comes from everyone telling
you oh, your handwriting isreally bad and you know you're
writing too slow, and all thestuff that comes with that.
(48:18):
So that's sort of how I came tounderstand my challenges, and
so, yeah, hats off to dad forgiving me the the way of the way
to do.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
You know what I've actually, I've actually met a
lot of people who obviously alittle bit older than myself,
who, um, yeah, they wereleft-handed and their right hand
.
I'm like, oh, do you want to goback to left hand?
They're like, I've just beendoing it for so long now that
I'm used to my right hand, youknow.
(48:52):
But honestly, like if I was togo you know what, tomorrow I'm
going to start writing with myright hand no, I would never be.
I think it's because I'm tooold now writing with my right
hand.
No, I would never be.
I think it's because I'm tooold now too.
You know, maybe if I had doneit when I was younger, maybe,
but I've tried to, like Iwouldn't even know how to hold a
pen properly.
Like I don't know, I just, butwho cares?
(49:15):
Like I don't know, but likeit's sort of straight, like this
is sort of going a bit offtopic, but like that's not like
you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, it'ssort of like it's just but it
was actually a really good waythat you described it actually
but like it's so interestingwhen you do see people who are
left-handed or whatever thesedays and it stands out, you're
(49:40):
like, oh my God, yeah, yeah,you're just like me, you know.
But when you're ambidextrous,that's a whole other thing
altogether.
Yeah, I didn't realise that,like that means you're using
both sides of your brain.
I don't know if I'm pronouncingit right, that you're using
both sides of your brain orsomething, or I have no idea.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
I think they've debunked that concept today
there you go, there you go Ithink.
Well, I think what they say isthat, um, you're using your
whole brain.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know,
I don't know, I just know itjust comes naturally to me, so
that that's the main thing.
But but, um, sorry, I don'tknow.
I just know it just comesnaturally to me, so that's the
main thing.
But sorry, I don't think wereally answered the question,
did we?
How can managers foster a senseof psychological safety for
neurodivergent employees?
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Well, yeah.
So we sort of got halfwaythrough and then started
chatting yeah that all good.
It really comes down toeducation and training and just
recognizing that people dooperate a bit differently.
Some people like the coffeeblack, Some people like the flat
white.
We're all a bit different.
(50:52):
Recognizing that we operate abit differently, that you know,
being able to offer or providereasonable workplace
accommodations that might assistthat employee.
The information is out therenow.
It's available if we look forit.
(51:13):
You know it's being developed,we're learning more being
developed.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
We're learning more.
It's actually interestingbecause I finished developing
this course, um for vocationaleducation, um professionals and
I was adding in a whole bunch ofstats and all of that and you
could actually see where a lotof the diagnosis of, like
anxiety and certain neurologicalconditions well, yeah, how
(51:44):
they're they're rising.
Right, and I actually said I'mlike the reason why they're
rising is that we're having abetter understanding about what
they actually are and people aregetting diagnosed.
All of that and those numbersare only going to grow, you know
.
So we do need to have things inplace because, you know, if
(52:08):
people don't, I think, speakingabout it from the law
perspective, this is where wecan be looking at lawsuits,
because it's discrimination, allof those types of things.
So, if workplaces keep puttingit in the too hard basket, what
they're going to find is thattheir competitors are going to
start getting on top of this andthey're going to fall behind.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Yes, well, even worse , if they keep putting it in the
too hard basket, they'll have astaff member who actually
experiences um, you know thenegative effects of that ends up
with a major issue.
And then they have a workplace.
You know, work cover claimagainst them, against the
(52:54):
business, because they'veallowed it to happen yeah, yeah,
crazy, crazy, crazy.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Now, what advice would you give to neurodivergent
employees who are struggling tofeel safe in their current work
environment?
Speaker 2 (53:08):
This is a really challenging question because at
the moment I keep hearing a lotof really bad horror stories
about experiences people havehad when they've approached
their managers, when they've, ifthey've been diagnosed, where
they've disclosed theirdiagnosis, it's actually been
(53:29):
detrimental to them, um.
So yeah, it's a challenging one.
I think that people would needto just really need to consider
the benefit.
Sorry, I should say they shouldconsider.
You know their situation andhow a disclosure would benefit
(53:52):
them.
But I suppose the short answerto your question is there are
support services out there.
The short answer to yourquestion is there are support
services out there.
You know we've got a few groupslike the Black Dog Institute,
lifeline, if they are strugglingat that level, to that extent,
(54:18):
but if they have someone withintheir workplace, like the
partner you mentioned at thatcompany.
If there is someone within thecompany that they could speak to
and champion for them, yeah,that would obviously open the
(54:38):
door for conversations.
If they can have a meeting withtheir manager, explain you know
what they're experiencing itreally means you have that
conversation.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
Have you heard of like?
Are they called ERGs, employee?
What does that stand for?
An ERG like an employee,something, group, responsibility
group.
So I think what it is is likediverse community of people come
(55:16):
together and then they'll talkabout certain issues that are
going on which can then beimplemented into the workplace.
I think, like Microsoft dostuff.
I think it's what it's calledan ERG or something like that.
Have you heard that term before?
Speaker 2 (55:31):
I haven't heard that term.
I was actually going to suggestthat a staff member could look
at if there are any employeeassistance programs EAPs within.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
But this is sort of different from an EAP, because
an EAP is almost like aconfidential type of thing.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
Yes, and that's an external support.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Yeah, where an ERG is almost like a committee getting
together, going.
Look, we need to start doingthis.
We need you know.
Know, when we're doinginterviews, for example, the
neurodivergent people are reallystruggling because we're not
doing this or whatever.
Do you know what I mean?
And and they actually invitenot just neurodivergent people
(56:16):
to the table.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Everyone can come to the table type of yeah, yeah,
that that would be a great I'mactually gonna.
Speaker 1 (56:23):
I'm actually, I really want to know what it,
what it was.
I was trying to think of um ume e r g um, meaning uh,
hopefully that was what I waslooking for.
Hang on, meaning in corporate,here we go.
(56:47):
Yeah, employee resource groups.
So employee resource groups arevoluntary Employee-led groups
whose aim is to foster a diverse, inclusive workplace aligned
with the organisation they serve.
There you go, yes.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
I've heard of.
For example, I was at an eventput on by one of the top-tier
firms and they've actuallyorganised a neurodiversity group
within the company.
So it's definitely a anevolving piece.
I think we're just, I thinkit's just starting for us here
(57:27):
in australia.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
I think we've got a long way to go yeah, yeah, I, I,
and I think as well, like someof the problems I've sort of
found is that there are someprograms that have happened
within some organisations whichdon't actually align with what
it is we're trying to worktowards, that actually sometimes
(57:50):
do more damage than good.
But everyone sees that as like,oh my God, we're doing this,
you know this, and that it'slike well, hang on, hang on, we
actually want this.
It's not that you know, um,which can be, which can be quite
difficult there, but look,we're getting to the end of the
the show here, um, you know,thank you so much for coming on
(58:13):
and having a chat with me, um,but where can people connect
with you and find out more aboutyour work?
Speaker 2 (58:20):
Well, I've got a site .
It's just a simple one-pagerwhere people can contact me.
It's adhdbrainstormcomau.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
You know what?
I know that you probably didn'thave a storm going on outside
there.
You probably have music goingon.
Speaker 2 (58:38):
I knew that happened.
Yeah, because of adhdbrainstorm right every time I've
told people that I, you know,that's the name I, I decide, I
settled on everyone's.
Oh my god, that's exactly,that's perfect.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
That's exactly what goes on in my head because out
of curiosity do you drive towork or do you catch the train?
Speaker 2 (59:04):
Also, I usually drive , but at the moment I'm doing
the Black Dog Institute's OneFoot Forward Challenge, so I've
been walking.
Speaker 1 (59:12):
They're walking.
Speaker 2 (59:14):
I've done a couple of days where I'll ride the bus in
and then walk home and thatsort of thing.
Oh yeah, done a couple of dayswhere I'll ride the bus in and
then walk home and that sort ofthing.
Oh yeah, so I'm.
I'm at 130 kilometers of my 150kilometer commitment.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
Sorry, can I ask right coming from Toowong and
Indooroopilly is Ziggy the bagman still there?
Yes, he's still there yes,ziggy the bag man, all right.
So for those of you who don'tknow so, ziggy is a homeless man
who lives in to wong um uhturinga, really turinga.
(59:49):
Well, yeah, turinga up near theI used to see him up near the
hungry jacks there, yep stillthere, oh okay.
okay now he's obviously someonewho's got a lot of mental issues
, all of that, and he collectsand forwards a lot of bags and
stuff like that, and he'sactually quite a real famous
person in the area, correct?
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Yes, he has a lot of support in the community and so
on some of the Facebook groupsfor the area people will comment
saying you know, I reached outto Zinni today and brought him
some food If anyone can bringhim X, y, z, you know thing he
might need.
Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
So he's supported by the local community in that way,
it's like he's sort of likejust part of like that area.
If that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
He's very famous yeah , I remember there was, before I
moved, that, um, you know,there was some business that was
trying to get rid of him andlike get him to move on, and the
local community actually saidno and yeah, let him stay.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Power to the people, eh power to the people go, Go
Ziggy right, Look.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for jumpingon today.
I hope you enjoy Thanks forhaving me.
Yeah, no problem.
No problem, I always lovegetting people on and having a
chat, but no, thank you so much.
And if you haven't already doneso, please subscribe, like and
(01:01:17):
follow to all of our socialmedia platforms.
My name's Will Wheeler and thisis Neurodivergent Mates.
Till next time.
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