April 18, 2024 • 26 mins
How are injury and illness monitored in the brain? Once thought of as the glue of the brain, glia cells have been proven to play a key role in brain health with astrocytes acting as important messengers. These star-like cells are at the center of the research of Nathan A. Smith, PhD, associate dean for Equity & Inclusion for Research and Research Education and associate professor of Neuroscience at the University of Rochester Medical Center and School of Medicine, who joins John Foxe, PhD, director of the Del Monte Institute for Neuroscience at the University of Rochester, on NeURoscience Perspectives. They explore Smith’s journey into science that started with the gift of a microscope from his mother, how research experience shaped his academic career, and why he is steadfast on wearing two hats to transform the future of the field.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We're scientists, we know that data shows diversity powers innovation.
(00:03):
We know diverse workforces actually lead the way in innovative science.
And so we just have to keep pushing forward.
Hello, I'm John Foxe.
I'm the director of the Del Monte Institute for Neuroscience at the
(00:25):
University of Rochester.
And I'd like to welcome you all to another episode of Neuroscience Perspectives.
We have a fantastic homegrown guest here today, Dr.
Nathan Smith, who is the associate dean for equity and inclusion and an associate
professor of neuroscience at the School of Medicine and Dentistry right here at the
University of Rochester.
His research focuses on the brain's immune system and has the potential to shape how
(00:48):
diseases such as attention deficit disorder or epilepsy are treated.
He has received numerous honors and awards, including being named one of the 1000 most
inspiring black scientists in America by Cell Press.
And in 2021, he was elected to the American Association for the Advancement of Science
as a fellow, truly prestigious honor.
(01:10):
Nathan, fantastic to have you here today.
I was just, you know, add to that actually this time last year, I got to introduce you
personally as a distinguished lecturer at the at the FENS meeting, the Federation of
European Neuroscience meeting in Paris, where you were really speaking to thousands of
people and gave a fantastic lecture.
Your star is certainly on the rise these days.
(01:33):
You've had an amazing journey into science.
I'm going to we're going to come back to that at the end.
Let's let's dive into your research first.
And now you work on a very specific cell type.
You know, when people are thinking about the brain, they they've all heard of neurons and
they think about the neurons.
But you work you work in another class of cells that have maybe an equally important
role in the brain.
(01:54):
Want to tell us a little bit about these?
These cells, I work on glial cells in particular, I work on astrocytes and microglia.
And these are two important cells.
One is the immune cell of the brain, the microglia and astrocytes.
Well, I call them the stars and parents of the central nervous system because they are
not only important for homeostatic properties, but they also are important for informational
(02:14):
processing, which now come in, which is now coming online as we speak, based on the new
research and the techniques that are being developed.
Right.
So this this is a cell type that that has an immunological function.
But it's it's also doing it also has a second set of processes where it's actually involved
in the in the machinations of the mind as well.
Absolutely.
Yes, both actually.
(02:35):
So, you know, people are scribing astrocytes have immune properties, but microglia is known
for their immune properties.
But secondly, we look for in my particular lab is outside of the pathological functions
or their immune properties, how they are regulating neural neural processes, in particular,
how the microglia are actually modulating plasticity, synaptic plasticity, as well as
(02:57):
how astrocytes are modulating plasticity.
But I do have to say that for my thing is I am very biased because astrocytes are at
the center of my entire research program and how astrocytes dictate to microglia and microglia
would dictate to neurons and vice versa, where astrocytes can also dictate to neurons as
well.
Right.
But all modulating that plasticity.
And if you went back 20 years, maybe 25 years, the people's conception of glia was as like,
(03:24):
you know, kind of a relatively dumb set of cells that were just there to like a scaffold
or structural.
They were just glue.
Most people believe that they were just holding their brain together, glue, they didn't have
any relevance or importance.
And that was due to the fact that we didn't have any tools to actually measure their
properties and see what they're doing.
Right, right.
And just, you know, again, like for the non-expert out there, I mean, these glial cells,
(03:47):
they're not always stuck in the same place either, right?
These guys get around.
Yes, in particular, the microglia definitely move around.
So microglia will move, it will basically send out their processes, extend and retract
their process to survey the parenchyma, their environment, basically to see if anything
is going on, right?
And when they do, since the danger is happening or some type of injury, then they will be
(04:08):
able to move their entire processes as well as their body, the cell body, to that area
of interest to help clear out that debris or that damaged tissue.
Right, right, right.
And you use imaging techniques to watch these cells move, to look at them operating.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about the technologies that you're using?
(04:29):
Absolutely.
You know, it's been a long time now.
We are able to look at astrocytes and both microglia in particular using two-photon
calcium imaging, right?
And so basically we use these fluorophores called as GCaMP, genetically encoded calcium
indicators inside of these cells which allow us to look at the calcium dynamics.
But we also have another fluorophore which is T tomato, which is a static fluorescent
(04:52):
protein that allow us to watch the movement of their processes and they move around.
And so basically in my lab, we can actually look at both, we can look at it in situ or
in vivo.
So basically we cut slices of brain and we can image things in real time while the slice
is alive or we can actually make these cranial windows on the mouse head and actually image
how these cell types are interacting with each other in real time as well.
(05:16):
That's incredible, right?
And then, so these are super important to normal function, but they can get off on their
own, they can get off on a jag and end up with inflammation and stuff.
So they play a big role in some of the pathologies that are well known to us.
Absolutely.
I normally think of these cell types are working normally under normal physiological conditions,
(05:37):
but things can go awry where they become pathological and they could do more damage than good, especially
in disease states.
And one in particular, one disease that always popped into my mind when I first learned about
microglia was at the University of Utah when I was working with Mario Capecchi on a collaboration
with my postdoc mentor at the time, John White.
(05:59):
And Mario Capecchi looked at microglia in particular, a disease called trichotillomania.
And that's basically where humans will pull out their hair and eat it.
And actually, most people thought it was just a neuronal disease, a disease that is responsible
by neurons.
But it turned out to be it is actually a disease that is caused by microglia.
30% of very small population of microglia, known as Hoxb8, is like they have a special
(06:23):
gene that is found in the people who express this disease.
And basically, when you take those microglia out, then people will actually store, I mean,
the mice will exhibit the same functions, I mean, the same phenotype that we see in
humans and it will pull out the hair and store it to consume the hair.
A completely extraordinary phenotype shared by a human and a mouse.
(06:43):
Shared by a human and a mouse.
On the basis of one subtype of glial cell.
One subtype.
And it's like, and that's, and it was, and that mutation, and it was unbelievable because
usually we don't see this, right?
We never could get the, when we create these mouse models, we never could get the mouse
models to recapitulate that a human disease in its full capacity.
But that was the first time I've ever seen where it does, where the microglia, that you
(07:07):
put the disease microglia in the mice and they can actually recapitulate the full brunt
of that disease.
Trichotillomania.
Absolutely amazing.
Yeah, yeah.
Now, how did you get into glia?
I mean, so let's go back a little bit.
How'd you get into science?
When did the love of science develop?
The love of science developed when I was a young age, when my mother bought me a little
(07:28):
microscope and I used to catch little butterflies outside and examine the wings of the microscope.
And it started when I was little.
I was an avid reader and everything else, but I always loved science.
I always wanted to do science.
And most of the time, especially my family was like, oh, you can either do a doctor,
but you don't hear about scientists.
But you know, and so I had that dream of becoming a choreothoracic surgeon or a neurosurgeon.
(07:50):
So you were really heading off in the clinical direction when you were very young.
Very young, right.
And it was all due to Ben Carson's book, Gifted Hands.
It was like a book that was passed down to many in African American families because
Ben Carson was like a hero to us all.
And we read that book and you get captivated and I was like, oh my God, I want to do neurosurgery.
(08:11):
I'm now interested in the brain.
And it all started from there.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
So you grew up in Louisiana.
I grew up in a great state of Louisiana.
In New Orleans?
I grew up, my family is from New Orleans, but I grew up in West Baton Rouge Parish in a
small, in a city known as Brule, Louisiana, which is, if you translate it from French,
it's Berne.
But yeah, grew up in Louisiana and Brule, Louisiana.
(08:33):
You're a long way from Louisiana up here in the great northern climes of Rochester.
Oh yes.
But you have a long history here at Rochester.
Will you talk a little bit about that?
It went to undergraduate in Louisiana.
It was a compromise I made with my mother and my grandmother.
I was at Xavier University of Louisiana.
And then they said, oh, why don't you graduate from high school?
We would like for you to stay in the state.
(08:55):
But when you do professional school or graduate school, you get to leave the state, right?
So they wanted to keep me close.
And so I graduated from Xavier and I came up here to Rochester.
And I took a year out from school because during that time I lost my brother and everything
else.
So I needed some time to recuperate.
And I took a year out and then I decided to do work as a lab tech.
(09:16):
And Hicham Dressi in the Center of Musculoskeletal Research.
And that was my first taste of full on-blown research that was not associated with a summer
undergraduate research program.
And it was really interesting.
I got advice from an old mentor long ago who said, if you're really interested in something
like neuroscience, you should do something outside of neuroscience to see if you like
(09:36):
it, right?
And so I did that.
And orthopedics, it was unusual.
I was like, oh, you know, I would be interested in the bone.
You know, I'll do orthopedics.
And it actually turned out to work out really well.
I ended up getting my first first off the paper within six months.
And Hicham Dressi, Hicham was a really good mentor.
I was his first, basically you look at, you know, I was in lab tech, but I was also his
(09:59):
first graduate student in a sense that we worked really well together.
And we got him that as a new investigator, it was very important for him to get those
papers out.
And we got that his foundation paper out.
It was really, really nice.
Yeah.
It really kicks off a career to and get that first first off the paper as a really as a
research check.
Right.
Right.
(10:20):
It shows you, you know, it's like a mile.
It's like a threshold in that milestone, right?
It's like once you cross that milestone, it's like, oh, it's really interesting.
Like, you know, I could do this.
And literally after that happened, it's like, hmm, you know, I could do this.
That's not that hard.
You hear lots of stories and everything else like, oh, it's so difficult.
You have to put in long hours.
Yes.
But it's this always light at the end of the tunnel on it.
And that pivotal moment right there showed that I could do it.
(10:41):
Can we turn the clock back to because I'm totally fast.
And I think, you know, I think folks out there, youngsters will be fascinated to know, you
know, when you were in school, like, are you from an academic family?
No, I'm not from an academic family.
It's like most of my family, my brother was in firefighting and stuff like that.
Cops.
And we had nurses in the family and stuff like that.
(11:02):
No true academic.
Yeah, yeah.
Actually, both of my own, both of my own parents are nurses.
Yeah.
So that's interesting.
Right.
So someone bought you a microscope.
And that was through persistence for me because I was persistent because I was like, oh, I
really would like to, you know, you watch all of these television shows and everything
else and I can't remember.
I think it was watch it was watching MacGyver and that really set everything in motion.
(11:26):
It's like, wow, it's sort of thinking like a scientist just wanting to.
I look at science like putting a puzzle together almost like you figure out a puzzle and you
put in different pieces of the puzzles together until you get the full thing completed.
And that's the way I look at it.
Yeah.
And that utility component of it did MacGyver component where you can say, I'm going to
take a piece of sellotape and a bit of this and a bit of that and we'll build this and
(11:47):
we'll just make it happen.
Troubleshooting.
Right.
And I always explain to my students, it's like, you know, research is about troubleshooting.
You have to, you know, things happen.
We have to pivot on demand and stuff like that.
But it's the fun thing about research is the troubleshooting part because you learn so
much doing that troubleshooting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, so and then you went to Xavier and you were studying biology.
(12:08):
Yes, Xavier.
Yes, I went to Xavier and my major was biology pre-med.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So you were still, there was still this thought I might be heading over in the Ben Carson
direction.
Still heading over in the Ben Carson direction, but it was that, that time in orthopedics that
switched it.
Gotcha.
That told me I should have explained it better.
That showed me that I can do the actual science part of it.
Right.
(12:29):
It's not the impossible.
Right.
And being, being the first person to like go into science.
Yeah.
I felt like, oh, I could do this.
Now, now, so let's get back to the formula.
So when you said, I'm going to go off and do this esoteric PhD business, how, how were
the folks at home about that?
Were they totally supportive?
Are they saying, what, what about that doctor thing?
No, you know, my mother, that's like a thing about her.
(12:49):
She's all, she was the type of mother that's like, I will support anything you do.
My grandmother was also very, I was very close to my grandmother.
Yeah.
So it was very close to my grandmother and she always wanted to push us to go for our
dreams and she knows like, that's your dream.
You go and you have to do work 100% harder than anyone else, but I know you could do
(13:11):
it given that that fire to keep going and shooting for our, getting our dreams.
So important women in your life.
Oh God.
It is so important that the, the nurturing and the, the instilled values they lay in
you, the hard working until you can, you know, things may not always work out, but you keep
going, you keep shooting and keeps thriving, shooting for those stars.
(13:34):
And that's one of the important, some of them, one of the important lessons I learned from
that actual experience from them.
And I always think back to my grandmother passed away in 20, in 2014 and I was like,
oh, you know, and I still remember her words.
And I remember even as a graduate student, my friends, when I came to Rochester for graduate
(13:54):
school, I used to always give my grandmother isms and how, you know, certain phrases to
help them overcome certain things.
They were like, oh, Nathan, I know your grandmother would say this and I could do this.
So yeah, I was just like, it was one of, it was just so wonderful because now I go back
one day we all have our reunion and they come to visit.
They always say those grandmother isms and it's so funny.
(14:18):
And I think about it, I was like, oh, that's my tribute to her.
And my tribute to both my mother who is still with us is to always strive for the stars
and always pull people forward, right?
And that's what my heart is.
A big part of my drive is looking back at the next generation that they come for us.
(14:40):
And I think that's the biggest drive for me is to make sure.
People that raise you up.
Right.
And they raised me up.
I taught you perseverance.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Taught me to perseverance and everything else.
And now I want to raise the next generation up.
Let's pick up on this theme of raising up other people in the sciences and that.
And again, you know, I know, I know this is literally a cornerstone of who you are as
(15:04):
a human being.
So you wear two important hats here.
One is you're a superb scientist in your own right.
You're running a lab, publishing papers and doing all that good stuff.
But the other piece of your portfolio is in your role as an associate dean for equity
and diversity.
And it's quite purposeful, your return to this institution.
(15:26):
But can we can we dive into that?
What it means to be the first black male graduate of a program like ours and to come back now
and take on this leadership role here in the program?
It meant a lot, right?
It's like, OK, people who look like me have someone they can look up to and say, you know
what, if he could do it, I could do it.
And that is the whole essence of my being.
(15:47):
It's like showing people that actually, if I did it, I know you could do it.
Yeah.
And going back to the importance of a black male neurosurgeon and a book handed to you
as a youngster and how seeing somebody who walks in your shoes, tread that path successfully
to the very top.
It was important.
It's extremely important, right?
(16:08):
It's like I remember, you know, when I got the book from my cousin and I read this book
and I was like, oh, my God, I didn't even think this was possible.
I've never seen anyone who looked like me achieving this goal to get more people who
look like me, young males, young women, in to the sciences and say, wow, you know, that's
a viable option outside of medicine, right?
(16:30):
I mean, everywhere I go when I go out and do outreach in the community and everything
else, we always hear medicine, medicine, medicine, because no one hear about, oh, you can also
do a science.
You can also be a scientist.
You can also touch many lives by the discoveries that you can find in a lab.
You know, I know what one thing you often say this to me, actually, the viewers may
not know, but like you and I spent a lot of time interacting and you said we have a lot
(16:53):
of work to do.
Oh, a lot of work to do.
But at the same time, when you look at look at where we're at today, how do you feel about
it?
I mean, is it are we are we are we well on the way?
Are we part on the way?
Are we getting there?
Hey, John, as you know, you've known me.
We got to know each other for a while.
I'm an opt I'm a perpetual optimist.
And people like, oh, you're too optimistic.
(17:14):
I think we are getting there.
We're definitely on the way.
It's more work, right?
We we can't like say, oh, we stop now.
We've made it.
No, it's just more work to do.
But I think we're heading in the right direction.
One of the things that you were absolutely instrumental in establishing here at this university
and I know it's been picked up at many other universities is our Neuroscience Diversity
(17:34):
Commission.
And we have a set of programs there.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about those and what they mean and how they operate
when I was still in D.C. and my other institution?
Maybe I get this email from you asking, hey, I really want you to sit on this.
It was alumni member of the university and alumni member of the of the program to sit
on this commission.
And I was like, you know, I yes, I will, because you've seen a lot of places.
(17:57):
And I think this is important to to note.
You see a lot of places put all after in the wake of the death of the tragic death of George
Floyd of those diversity supplements, statements, statements.
And it was like, oh, it was like words, words, words, but no actions.
And the one difference between Rochester and and the other institutions was actions and
(18:18):
write the Diversity Commission actions.
And it's like, let's do this great programing.
Let's change the narrative and make things better.
And not only that, we have the resources for you to do it.
And I have to say it was it's been extremely adorable by working not only working as an
alumni member when I was away, but now being a faculty member on the commission and to
(18:40):
help build programs that actually help diversify neuroscience in general.
All right.
We have done a lot as a commission.
I mean, the first is the neuro east program by bringing high school students from East
High into Rochester.
Give them that first research experience that is unheard of.
Right.
And from going in and showing people are telling young students, hey, you could be a scientist
(19:03):
one day.
No, now we take them in our labs and showing them, hey, it is very possible.
You can actually pipette and do all the things that we're doing as scientists and see yourself
in those roles.
Right.
The other one is NeuroCity going into MS minority service institutions, MSIs like CUNY City
College in New York City, bringing students who have never had a research program, who've
(19:24):
never had research experience into the University of Rochester, showing them the true potential
that they could achieve and putting them in labs where we know that they will thrive because
that's a very important thing.
Put them with mentors that we know who are interested and willing to nurture this person
to reach their true potential.
Another which is a program dear to my heart is NeuroYes, which is where we take senior
post docs and invite them to do practice job talks and now we have added chalk talks to
(19:49):
it and give them that experience.
And we have been very successful and the fellows who have gone through NeuroYes program have
all emailed and said, this has been an amazing program.
I am so happy you have done that.
So this is a program, right, just to clarify for folks, where people who are getting on
that first rung of the job market and going out trying to get a faculty position, get
(20:11):
to practice all their skills that maybe folks from privilege would have picked up along
the way anyway.
Oh, absolutely.
They would have those opportunities ahead of time.
That's really, really important.
There's a huge change in the narrative.
I mean, I've said on many panels, you have said on many panels, the one thing I hate
here is, oh, we can't find people with diverse perspectives.
We can't find them.
(20:32):
And I was like, I don't understand.
We're not hiding anywhere.
We're out there.
We have now, you know, Black and Neuro led the way in creating a directory where you
no longer have to say, oh, I can't find them.
Here they are.
Right.
Right.
And so we're making sure that the next generation is much more representative of the population
(21:02):
that the United States and the world.
Right.
So that not everybody coming through the system looks one way and enriching everything in
the process.
We're scientists.
We know that data shows diversity, powers, innovation.
We know diverse workforces actually lead the way in innovative science.
And so we just have to keep pushing forward.
(21:23):
The last program that we just had is Neuro to All, where we have the students.
And in fact, we go into the community and educate the community about neuroscience and
teaching them how to teach them about neuroscience.
And they can go on and teach neuroscience to their families, et cetera, just spreading
the neuroscience excitement across the region.
And basically.
(21:44):
Exactly.
It's more exciting than trying to figure out the workings of the human brain.
Exactly.
So a question for you, right?
So you need folks like you to step into the breach in the diversity effort and initiative
and help us do this.
But of course, what it does now is it steals a bunch of your time.
Now you've got a job, you've got two jobs.
It's hard enough to be a successful scientist in an extraordinarily competitive market with
(22:10):
limited resources.
If that's the only thing you're doing, but now you have this leadership role.
How are you thinking about that balance?
Because there are loads of people out there who are going to be saying, like, how the
hell are you going to manage these two portfolios?
I always get this question and I actually got it this past week.
I always tell people you can walk and chew gum at the same time.
(22:31):
But the most important thing is because I know it is like the onus for diversifying neuroscience
or any aspect of science should not be on people of color, women, people with disabilities,
et cetera.
It's a collective group working together.
This is crucial.
Right.
That is a crucial point.
It's like we should, it's everyone at the table should be working to change the narrative,
should making sure that people with disabilities, people who are URIMs, people who are sexually,
(23:00):
have sexual orientation differences, should have a seat at the table.
We should work together to make sure everyone is represented and everyone has a fair seat
at the table.
However, the reason I took my position and the reason I wanted the leadership position
is the fact that I wanted to represent people who felt that they didn't have a voice, who
didn't have a voice at the table and who feared that if they do speak out, they won't be heard.
(23:24):
And so I balance it like it's tough.
I'm going to be real with it.
It is tough.
But I do love science.
I am still doing experiments.
And I know sometimes my students, I tell them, oh, we're coming on Saturday, we're trained
and stuff like this during the week.
But it is a fine dance, but I manage it.
There's a vocational street to this, right?
(23:45):
This is a piece of who you are, Nate.
It is who I am.
And also you have to have the resources.
You know, I saw like we had people or I should say institutions will hire people and that
person is going to fix all of the diversity problems.
That's impossible.
Right.
Right.
They shouldn't.
Right.
They should hire that person to fix all the diversity problems with zero resources.
(24:08):
And it's just that person.
And so when I talked with Rochester about this and set up two stages, I do have a team
on each side, right?
That helps out.
You need a team.
So you were given the support structure to be successful in both of those spaces.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And that's crucial.
I'm not carrying a weight myself.
(24:28):
I have a team.
So you're collecting out like 10 years, 20 years, which bit of it do you want to be known
for?
When you think about how it's going to go, there's a piece of you that's policy leadership
and then there's the pure scientist piece of you.
You think you're going to keep them both going or what would you want to be known for?
I think I would have to, I honestly, I think it would be both because I think they're both
(24:50):
intertwined because again, until we balance it out, until we see that it is a fair representation
across the board, because our science would not be innovative.
We don't have a diverse workforce in the lab and we won't be able to push those boundaries
of science.
Right?
So I would rather be known for both rather than have them to pick because I think I truly
(25:12):
believe this in my core that they are both intertwined.
I totally think that's the case because one of the things of course, about being a credible
leader, let's say in the neurosciences is that you're, you're seen as a credible scientist
in your own right.
That's what gives you the leverage.
That's what gives you the gravitas with your community.
And I think it's an important, important combination.
(25:35):
Well, it's been absolutely fantastic to get to chat with you and to hear your thoughts
on these, these really important issues.
And it's been a great pleasure of mine to witness you operating and working hard and
working hard on behalf of people of every background.
You're really, really a leading light in the field, Nathan, and it's a pleasure, pleasure
(25:59):
to be around you.
So thanks for coming on Neuroscience Perspectives.
Thank you for the invitation.
We're scientists, we know that data shows diversity powers innovation.
(00:03):
We know diverse workforces actually lead the way in innovative science.
And so we just have to keep pushing forward.
Hello, I'm John Foxe.
I'm the director of the Del Monte Institute for Neuroscience at the
(00:25):
University of Rochester.
And I'd like to welcome you all to another episode of Neuroscience Perspectives.
We have a fantastic homegrown guest here today, Dr.
Nathan Smith, who is the associate dean for equity and inclusion and an associate
professor of neuroscience at the School of Medicine and Dentistry right here at the
University of Rochester.
His research focuses on the brain's immune system and has the potential to shape how
(00:48):
diseases such as attention deficit disorder or epilepsy are treated.
He has received numerous honors and awards, including being named one of the 1000 most
inspiring black scientists in America by Cell Press.
And in 2021, he was elected to the American Association for the Advancement of Science
as a fellow, truly prestigious honor.
(01:10):
Nathan, fantastic to have you here today.
I was just, you know, add to that actually this time last year, I got to introduce you
personally as a distinguished lecturer at the at the FENS meeting, the Federation of
European Neuroscience meeting in Paris, where you were really speaking to thousands of
people and gave a fantastic lecture.
Your star is certainly on the rise these days.
(01:33):
You've had an amazing journey into science.
I'm going to we're going to come back to that at the end.
Let's let's dive into your research first.
And now you work on a very specific cell type.
You know, when people are thinking about the brain, they they've all heard of neurons and
they think about the neurons.
But you work you work in another class of cells that have maybe an equally important
role in the brain.
(01:54):
Want to tell us a little bit about these?
These cells, I work on glial cells in particular, I work on astrocytes and microglia.
And these are two important cells.
One is the immune cell of the brain, the microglia and astrocytes.
Well, I call them the stars and parents of the central nervous system because they are
not only important for homeostatic properties, but they also are important for informational
(02:14):
processing, which now come in, which is now coming online as we speak, based on the new
research and the techniques that are being developed.
Right.
So this this is a cell type that that has an immunological function.
But it's it's also doing it also has a second set of processes where it's actually involved
in the in the machinations of the mind as well.
Absolutely.
Yes, both actually.
(02:35):
So, you know, people are scribing astrocytes have immune properties, but microglia is known
for their immune properties.
But secondly, we look for in my particular lab is outside of the pathological functions
or their immune properties, how they are regulating neural neural processes, in particular,
how the microglia are actually modulating plasticity, synaptic plasticity, as well as
(02:57):
how astrocytes are modulating plasticity.
But I do have to say that for my thing is I am very biased because astrocytes are at
the center of my entire research program and how astrocytes dictate to microglia and microglia
would dictate to neurons and vice versa, where astrocytes can also dictate to neurons as
well.
Right.
But all modulating that plasticity.
And if you went back 20 years, maybe 25 years, the people's conception of glia was as like,
(03:24):
you know, kind of a relatively dumb set of cells that were just there to like a scaffold
or structural.
They were just glue.
Most people believe that they were just holding their brain together, glue, they didn't have
any relevance or importance.
And that was due to the fact that we didn't have any tools to actually measure their
properties and see what they're doing.
Right, right.
And just, you know, again, like for the non-expert out there, I mean, these glial cells,
(03:47):
they're not always stuck in the same place either, right?
These guys get around.
Yes, in particular, the microglia definitely move around.
So microglia will move, it will basically send out their processes, extend and retract
their process to survey the parenchyma, their environment, basically to see if anything
is going on, right?
And when they do, since the danger is happening or some type of injury, then they will be
(04:08):
able to move their entire processes as well as their body, the cell body, to that area
of interest to help clear out that debris or that damaged tissue.
Right, right, right.
And you use imaging techniques to watch these cells move, to look at them operating.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about the technologies that you're using?
(04:29):
Absolutely.
You know, it's been a long time now.
We are able to look at astrocytes and both microglia in particular using two-photon
calcium imaging, right?
And so basically we use these fluorophores called as GCaMP, genetically encoded calcium
indicators inside of these cells which allow us to look at the calcium dynamics.
But we also have another fluorophore which is T tomato, which is a static fluorescent
(04:52):
protein that allow us to watch the movement of their processes and they move around.
And so basically in my lab, we can actually look at both, we can look at it in situ or
in vivo.
So basically we cut slices of brain and we can image things in real time while the slice
is alive or we can actually make these cranial windows on the mouse head and actually image
how these cell types are interacting with each other in real time as well.
(05:16):
That's incredible, right?
And then, so these are super important to normal function, but they can get off on their
own, they can get off on a jag and end up with inflammation and stuff.
So they play a big role in some of the pathologies that are well known to us.
Absolutely.
I normally think of these cell types are working normally under normal physiological conditions,
(05:37):
but things can go awry where they become pathological and they could do more damage than good, especially
in disease states.
And one in particular, one disease that always popped into my mind when I first learned about
microglia was at the University of Utah when I was working with Mario Capecchi on a collaboration
with my postdoc mentor at the time, John White.
(05:59):
And Mario Capecchi looked at microglia in particular, a disease called trichotillomania.
And that's basically where humans will pull out their hair and eat it.
And actually, most people thought it was just a neuronal disease, a disease that is responsible
by neurons.
But it turned out to be it is actually a disease that is caused by microglia.
30% of very small population of microglia, known as Hoxb8, is like they have a special
(06:23):
gene that is found in the people who express this disease.
And basically, when you take those microglia out, then people will actually store, I mean,
the mice will exhibit the same functions, I mean, the same phenotype that we see in
humans and it will pull out the hair and store it to consume the hair.
A completely extraordinary phenotype shared by a human and a mouse.
(06:43):
Shared by a human and a mouse.
On the basis of one subtype of glial cell.
One subtype.
And it's like, and that's, and it was, and that mutation, and it was unbelievable because
usually we don't see this, right?
We never could get the, when we create these mouse models, we never could get the mouse
models to recapitulate that a human disease in its full capacity.
But that was the first time I've ever seen where it does, where the microglia, that you
(07:07):
put the disease microglia in the mice and they can actually recapitulate the full brunt
of that disease.
Trichotillomania.
Absolutely amazing.
Yeah, yeah.
Now, how did you get into glia?
I mean, so let's go back a little bit.
How'd you get into science?
When did the love of science develop?
The love of science developed when I was a young age, when my mother bought me a little
(07:28):
microscope and I used to catch little butterflies outside and examine the wings of the microscope.
And it started when I was little.
I was an avid reader and everything else, but I always loved science.
I always wanted to do science.
And most of the time, especially my family was like, oh, you can either do a doctor,
but you don't hear about scientists.
But you know, and so I had that dream of becoming a choreothoracic surgeon or a neurosurgeon.
(07:50):
So you were really heading off in the clinical direction when you were very young.
Very young, right.
And it was all due to Ben Carson's book, Gifted Hands.
It was like a book that was passed down to many in African American families because
Ben Carson was like a hero to us all.
And we read that book and you get captivated and I was like, oh my God, I want to do neurosurgery.
(08:11):
I'm now interested in the brain.
And it all started from there.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
So you grew up in Louisiana.
I grew up in a great state of Louisiana.
In New Orleans?
I grew up, my family is from New Orleans, but I grew up in West Baton Rouge Parish in a
small, in a city known as Brule, Louisiana, which is, if you translate it from French,
it's Berne.
But yeah, grew up in Louisiana and Brule, Louisiana.
(08:33):
You're a long way from Louisiana up here in the great northern climes of Rochester.
Oh yes.
But you have a long history here at Rochester.
Will you talk a little bit about that?
It went to undergraduate in Louisiana.
It was a compromise I made with my mother and my grandmother.
I was at Xavier University of Louisiana.
And then they said, oh, why don't you graduate from high school?
We would like for you to stay in the state.
(08:55):
But when you do professional school or graduate school, you get to leave the state, right?
So they wanted to keep me close.
And so I graduated from Xavier and I came up here to Rochester.
And I took a year out from school because during that time I lost my brother and everything
else.
So I needed some time to recuperate.
And I took a year out and then I decided to do work as a lab tech.
(09:16):
And Hicham Dressi in the Center of Musculoskeletal Research.
And that was my first taste of full on-blown research that was not associated with a summer
undergraduate research program.
And it was really interesting.
I got advice from an old mentor long ago who said, if you're really interested in something
like neuroscience, you should do something outside of neuroscience to see if you like
(09:36):
it, right?
And so I did that.
And orthopedics, it was unusual.
I was like, oh, you know, I would be interested in the bone.
You know, I'll do orthopedics.
And it actually turned out to work out really well.
I ended up getting my first first off the paper within six months.
And Hicham Dressi, Hicham was a really good mentor.
I was his first, basically you look at, you know, I was in lab tech, but I was also his
(09:59):
first graduate student in a sense that we worked really well together.
And we got him that as a new investigator, it was very important for him to get those
papers out.
And we got that his foundation paper out.
It was really, really nice.
Yeah.
It really kicks off a career to and get that first first off the paper as a really as a
research check.
Right.
Right.
(10:20):
It shows you, you know, it's like a mile.
It's like a threshold in that milestone, right?
It's like once you cross that milestone, it's like, oh, it's really interesting.
Like, you know, I could do this.
And literally after that happened, it's like, hmm, you know, I could do this.
That's not that hard.
You hear lots of stories and everything else like, oh, it's so difficult.
You have to put in long hours.
Yes.
But it's this always light at the end of the tunnel on it.
And that pivotal moment right there showed that I could do it.
(10:41):
Can we turn the clock back to because I'm totally fast.
And I think, you know, I think folks out there, youngsters will be fascinated to know, you
know, when you were in school, like, are you from an academic family?
No, I'm not from an academic family.
It's like most of my family, my brother was in firefighting and stuff like that.
Cops.
And we had nurses in the family and stuff like that.
(11:02):
No true academic.
Yeah, yeah.
Actually, both of my own, both of my own parents are nurses.
Yeah.
So that's interesting.
Right.
So someone bought you a microscope.
And that was through persistence for me because I was persistent because I was like, oh, I
really would like to, you know, you watch all of these television shows and everything
else and I can't remember.
I think it was watch it was watching MacGyver and that really set everything in motion.
(11:26):
It's like, wow, it's sort of thinking like a scientist just wanting to.
I look at science like putting a puzzle together almost like you figure out a puzzle and you
put in different pieces of the puzzles together until you get the full thing completed.
And that's the way I look at it.
Yeah.
And that utility component of it did MacGyver component where you can say, I'm going to
take a piece of sellotape and a bit of this and a bit of that and we'll build this and
(11:47):
we'll just make it happen.
Troubleshooting.
Right.
And I always explain to my students, it's like, you know, research is about troubleshooting.
You have to, you know, things happen.
We have to pivot on demand and stuff like that.
But it's the fun thing about research is the troubleshooting part because you learn so
much doing that troubleshooting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, so and then you went to Xavier and you were studying biology.
(12:08):
Yes, Xavier.
Yes, I went to Xavier and my major was biology pre-med.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So you were still, there was still this thought I might be heading over in the Ben Carson
direction.
Still heading over in the Ben Carson direction, but it was that, that time in orthopedics that
switched it.
Gotcha.
That told me I should have explained it better.
That showed me that I can do the actual science part of it.
Right.
(12:29):
It's not the impossible.
Right.
And being, being the first person to like go into science.
Yeah.
I felt like, oh, I could do this.
Now, now, so let's get back to the formula.
So when you said, I'm going to go off and do this esoteric PhD business, how, how were
the folks at home about that?
Were they totally supportive?
Are they saying, what, what about that doctor thing?
No, you know, my mother, that's like a thing about her.
(12:49):
She's all, she was the type of mother that's like, I will support anything you do.
My grandmother was also very, I was very close to my grandmother.
Yeah.
So it was very close to my grandmother and she always wanted to push us to go for our
dreams and she knows like, that's your dream.
You go and you have to do work 100% harder than anyone else, but I know you could do
(13:11):
it given that that fire to keep going and shooting for our, getting our dreams.
So important women in your life.
Oh God.
It is so important that the, the nurturing and the, the instilled values they lay in
you, the hard working until you can, you know, things may not always work out, but you keep
going, you keep shooting and keeps thriving, shooting for those stars.
(13:34):
And that's one of the important, some of them, one of the important lessons I learned from
that actual experience from them.
And I always think back to my grandmother passed away in 20, in 2014 and I was like,
oh, you know, and I still remember her words.
And I remember even as a graduate student, my friends, when I came to Rochester for graduate
(13:54):
school, I used to always give my grandmother isms and how, you know, certain phrases to
help them overcome certain things.
They were like, oh, Nathan, I know your grandmother would say this and I could do this.
So yeah, I was just like, it was one of, it was just so wonderful because now I go back
one day we all have our reunion and they come to visit.
They always say those grandmother isms and it's so funny.
(14:18):
And I think about it, I was like, oh, that's my tribute to her.
And my tribute to both my mother who is still with us is to always strive for the stars
and always pull people forward, right?
And that's what my heart is.
A big part of my drive is looking back at the next generation that they come for us.
(14:40):
And I think that's the biggest drive for me is to make sure.
People that raise you up.
Right.
And they raised me up.
I taught you perseverance.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Taught me to perseverance and everything else.
And now I want to raise the next generation up.
Let's pick up on this theme of raising up other people in the sciences and that.
And again, you know, I know, I know this is literally a cornerstone of who you are as
(15:04):
a human being.
So you wear two important hats here.
One is you're a superb scientist in your own right.
You're running a lab, publishing papers and doing all that good stuff.
But the other piece of your portfolio is in your role as an associate dean for equity
and diversity.
And it's quite purposeful, your return to this institution.
(15:26):
But can we can we dive into that?
What it means to be the first black male graduate of a program like ours and to come back now
and take on this leadership role here in the program?
It meant a lot, right?
It's like, OK, people who look like me have someone they can look up to and say, you know
what, if he could do it, I could do it.
And that is the whole essence of my being.
(15:47):
It's like showing people that actually, if I did it, I know you could do it.
Yeah.
And going back to the importance of a black male neurosurgeon and a book handed to you
as a youngster and how seeing somebody who walks in your shoes, tread that path successfully
to the very top.
It was important.
It's extremely important, right?
(16:08):
It's like I remember, you know, when I got the book from my cousin and I read this book
and I was like, oh, my God, I didn't even think this was possible.
I've never seen anyone who looked like me achieving this goal to get more people who
look like me, young males, young women, in to the sciences and say, wow, you know, that's
a viable option outside of medicine, right?
(16:30):
I mean, everywhere I go when I go out and do outreach in the community and everything
else, we always hear medicine, medicine, medicine, because no one hear about, oh, you can also
do a science.
You can also be a scientist.
You can also touch many lives by the discoveries that you can find in a lab.
You know, I know what one thing you often say this to me, actually, the viewers may
not know, but like you and I spent a lot of time interacting and you said we have a lot
(16:53):
of work to do.
Oh, a lot of work to do.
But at the same time, when you look at look at where we're at today, how do you feel about
it?
I mean, is it are we are we are we well on the way?
Are we part on the way?
Are we getting there?
Hey, John, as you know, you've known me.
We got to know each other for a while.
I'm an opt I'm a perpetual optimist.
And people like, oh, you're too optimistic.
(17:14):
I think we are getting there.
We're definitely on the way.
It's more work, right?
We we can't like say, oh, we stop now.
We've made it.
No, it's just more work to do.
But I think we're heading in the right direction.
One of the things that you were absolutely instrumental in establishing here at this university
and I know it's been picked up at many other universities is our Neuroscience Diversity
(17:34):
Commission.
And we have a set of programs there.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about those and what they mean and how they operate
when I was still in D.C. and my other institution?
Maybe I get this email from you asking, hey, I really want you to sit on this.
It was alumni member of the university and alumni member of the of the program to sit
on this commission.
And I was like, you know, I yes, I will, because you've seen a lot of places.
(17:57):
And I think this is important to to note.
You see a lot of places put all after in the wake of the death of the tragic death of George
Floyd of those diversity supplements, statements, statements.
And it was like, oh, it was like words, words, words, but no actions.
And the one difference between Rochester and and the other institutions was actions and
(18:18):
write the Diversity Commission actions.
And it's like, let's do this great programing.
Let's change the narrative and make things better.
And not only that, we have the resources for you to do it.
And I have to say it was it's been extremely adorable by working not only working as an
alumni member when I was away, but now being a faculty member on the commission and to
(18:40):
help build programs that actually help diversify neuroscience in general.
All right.
We have done a lot as a commission.
I mean, the first is the neuro east program by bringing high school students from East
High into Rochester.
Give them that first research experience that is unheard of.
Right.
And from going in and showing people are telling young students, hey, you could be a scientist
(19:03):
one day.
No, now we take them in our labs and showing them, hey, it is very possible.
You can actually pipette and do all the things that we're doing as scientists and see yourself
in those roles.
Right.
The other one is NeuroCity going into MS minority service institutions, MSIs like CUNY City
College in New York City, bringing students who have never had a research program, who've
(19:24):
never had research experience into the University of Rochester, showing them the true potential
that they could achieve and putting them in labs where we know that they will thrive because
that's a very important thing.
Put them with mentors that we know who are interested and willing to nurture this person
to reach their true potential.
Another which is a program dear to my heart is NeuroYes, which is where we take senior
post docs and invite them to do practice job talks and now we have added chalk talks to
(19:49):
it and give them that experience.
And we have been very successful and the fellows who have gone through NeuroYes program have
all emailed and said, this has been an amazing program.
I am so happy you have done that.
So this is a program, right, just to clarify for folks, where people who are getting on
that first rung of the job market and going out trying to get a faculty position, get
(20:11):
to practice all their skills that maybe folks from privilege would have picked up along
the way anyway.
Oh, absolutely.
They would have those opportunities ahead of time.
That's really, really important.
There's a huge change in the narrative.
I mean, I've said on many panels, you have said on many panels, the one thing I hate
here is, oh, we can't find people with diverse perspectives.
We can't find them.
(20:32):
And I was like, I don't understand.
We're not hiding anywhere.
We're out there.
We have now, you know, Black and Neuro led the way in creating a directory where you
no longer have to say, oh, I can't find them.
Here they are.
Right.
Right.
And so we're making sure that the next generation is much more representative of the population
(21:02):
that the United States and the world.
Right.
So that not everybody coming through the system looks one way and enriching everything in
the process.
We're scientists.
We know that data shows diversity, powers, innovation.
We know diverse workforces actually lead the way in innovative science.
And so we just have to keep pushing forward.
(21:23):
The last program that we just had is Neuro to All, where we have the students.
And in fact, we go into the community and educate the community about neuroscience and
teaching them how to teach them about neuroscience.
And they can go on and teach neuroscience to their families, et cetera, just spreading
the neuroscience excitement across the region.
And basically.
(21:44):
Exactly.
It's more exciting than trying to figure out the workings of the human brain.
Exactly.
So a question for you, right?
So you need folks like you to step into the breach in the diversity effort and initiative
and help us do this.
But of course, what it does now is it steals a bunch of your time.
Now you've got a job, you've got two jobs.
It's hard enough to be a successful scientist in an extraordinarily competitive market with
(22:10):
limited resources.
If that's the only thing you're doing, but now you have this leadership role.
How are you thinking about that balance?
Because there are loads of people out there who are going to be saying, like, how the
hell are you going to manage these two portfolios?
I always get this question and I actually got it this past week.
I always tell people you can walk and chew gum at the same time.
(22:31):
But the most important thing is because I know it is like the onus for diversifying neuroscience
or any aspect of science should not be on people of color, women, people with disabilities,
et cetera.
It's a collective group working together.
This is crucial.
Right.
That is a crucial point.
It's like we should, it's everyone at the table should be working to change the narrative,
should making sure that people with disabilities, people who are URIMs, people who are sexually,
(23:00):
have sexual orientation differences, should have a seat at the table.
We should work together to make sure everyone is represented and everyone has a fair seat
at the table.
However, the reason I took my position and the reason I wanted the leadership position
is the fact that I wanted to represent people who felt that they didn't have a voice, who
didn't have a voice at the table and who feared that if they do speak out, they won't be heard.
(23:24):
And so I balance it like it's tough.
I'm going to be real with it.
It is tough.
But I do love science.
I am still doing experiments.
And I know sometimes my students, I tell them, oh, we're coming on Saturday, we're trained
and stuff like this during the week.
But it is a fine dance, but I manage it.
There's a vocational street to this, right?
(23:45):
This is a piece of who you are, Nate.
It is who I am.
And also you have to have the resources.
You know, I saw like we had people or I should say institutions will hire people and that
person is going to fix all of the diversity problems.
That's impossible.
Right.
Right.
They shouldn't.
Right.
They should hire that person to fix all the diversity problems with zero resources.
(24:08):
And it's just that person.
And so when I talked with Rochester about this and set up two stages, I do have a team
on each side, right?
That helps out.
You need a team.
So you were given the support structure to be successful in both of those spaces.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And that's crucial.
I'm not carrying a weight myself.
(24:28):
I have a team.
So you're collecting out like 10 years, 20 years, which bit of it do you want to be known
for?
When you think about how it's going to go, there's a piece of you that's policy leadership
and then there's the pure scientist piece of you.
You think you're going to keep them both going or what would you want to be known for?
I think I would have to, I honestly, I think it would be both because I think they're both
(24:50):
intertwined because again, until we balance it out, until we see that it is a fair representation
across the board, because our science would not be innovative.
We don't have a diverse workforce in the lab and we won't be able to push those boundaries
of science.
Right?
So I would rather be known for both rather than have them to pick because I think I truly
(25:12):
believe this in my core that they are both intertwined.
I totally think that's the case because one of the things of course, about being a credible
leader, let's say in the neurosciences is that you're, you're seen as a credible scientist
in your own right.
That's what gives you the leverage.
That's what gives you the gravitas with your community.
And I think it's an important, important combination.
(25:35):
Well, it's been absolutely fantastic to get to chat with you and to hear your thoughts
on these, these really important issues.
And it's been a great pleasure of mine to witness you operating and working hard and
working hard on behalf of people of every background.
You're really, really a leading light in the field, Nathan, and it's a pleasure, pleasure
(25:59):
to be around you.
So thanks for coming on Neuroscience Perspectives.
Thank you for the invitation.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com