May 5, 2025 • 48 mins
Amanda and Bilal host relationship coaches Victoria Matesky and Tafazal Mohammed, founders of Tea For Two https://www.teafortwo.uk/ in this 2-part candid discussion on what makes a successful marriage and why our marriages end up in failure.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
As-salamu alaykum.
You're listening to the NewBeginnings podcast.
No fluff, no holding back.
Just honest conversations aboutyour journey as a new Muslim.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Brought to you by New Beginnings, a platform that
aims to support new Muslims ontheir journey through Islam from
the shahada and beyond.
UNKNOWN (00:18):
Music
SPEAKER_01 (00:23):
As-salamu alaykum and welcome back to the New
Beginnings podcast.
I'm your co-host Bilal Brown.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
And I'm Amanda.
Thank you all for joining us.
Today we're once again delvinginto the timeless subject of
marriage as a convert to Islam.
But this time we're moving pastthe contracts and the walimas
and on to what makes an Islamicmarriage really work.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
So in the past we've spoken many times about the fact
that converting to Islam is notan event.
It's a lifetime of challengesand the same can be said for
marriage.
For converts, these challengescan be more daunting.
So gone are the days of datingfor months or years before
settling down.
Now you're seemingly expected tomeet someone, keep it strictly
(01:05):
halal, and then somehow figureout if this person is the one
within just a few weeks.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
Now, in previous episodes, we've discussed the
fact that converts seem to havea comparatively high divorce
rate.
And we've emphasised the needfor those who are new to Islam
to take the time they need togrow roots as Muslims for
themselves before marrying.
But we also know that this isn'talways practical or feasible.
We also realise that even forthose who have been Muslim all
(01:32):
their lives, happily ever afterisn't guaranteed.
So how can we work towards asuccessful marriage?
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
With us today are our guests, Victoria and Taff.
They are a marriage couple whoset up Tea for Two, which is a
marriage coaching service tohelp Muslim couples achieve the
strongest relationships they canwith their spouses.
You can check out their website.
Please do check that out.
I'll leave a link with thepodcast as well.
So welcome to the podcast, bothof you.
(02:00):
Victoria, you're a convert toIslam, while Taff is not a
convert to Islam, but he's aMuslim, heritage Muslim.
Can you...
Introduce yourselves briefly,please.
SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
Yeah, sure.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much for invitingus.
And it's an honour to be heretoday.
I'm Coach Taff and I've beenworking across the UK in the
youth and community field foraround about 30 years.
So I've been kind of known upand down the country in a public
way.
I'm an award-winningrelationship coach, so I guess
(02:30):
what I have in terms of myexperience is very relevant
today.
And I'm the co-founder of Teafor Two, like you said earlier,
and that's with my wife,Victoria, who sat next to me.
And I actually specialize inworking with Muslim men, and
perhaps later on we can speakabout how that manifests itself.
Mashallah.
SPEAKER_03 (02:49):
I'm Victoria Metesky.
So good to be here with youboth.
And I've now been Muslim,alhamdulillah.
This is, I think it's been eightand a half years.
No, so I still feel sometimeslike I'm a newborn in the faith,
but other times I feel like I'vebeen here for a long time.
So I, as Taff said, I co-foundedTea for Two with him, and we are
(03:10):
both certified relationshipcoaches.
We have been trained by theworld-renowned Gottman
Institute.
They're leaders and experts inrelationship, and we're
currently studying Islamicpsychology with a local
institute here in England.
As you can probably tell by myvoice, I'm not British-born.
I'm from America.
And yeah, so it's been, it'slovely to be here having this
(03:33):
conversation today.
We come with a lifetime ofexperience.
Between us, we have eightchildren and eight
grandchildren, alhamdulillah.
Our oldest children are in their30s.
A lot of what we share and whatwe teach and what we share with
our couples is based not just ontheory, but on life experience.
So we're really excited to bringthat to this conversation today
as well.
SPEAKER_00 (03:52):
Mashallah, eight children and eight
grandchildren.
And tabarakallah, neither of youlook old enough to have
grandchildren.
Let me just say that right now,mashallah.
So welcome, both of you.
It is really great to have youboth on.
I'm really excited about theconversation that we're going to
have today.
And as we've said, today is nottalking about the rules.
of marriage.
(04:12):
We're not talking about therights, the duties, the
responsibilities, and so on.
That's another topic for anothertime.
Today, we're talking to anyonewho is thinking of getting
married, who is actively lookingto get married, and those who
are already married.
It's about how to be within therelationship in a way that will
give it the best chance ofsuccess, inshallah.
(04:33):
So, just to dive right in, We'rejust going to have, like I said,
a very casual conversation aboutit.
But the first topic that we wantto touch on today is
compatibility.
We hear a lot about this.
I, myself, as a convert, havestruggled with this idea.
What does it mean to becompatible?
What is it?
What is it not?
And can converts andnon-converts, heritage Muslims
(04:55):
or non-verts, Be compatible.
I remember being told very earlyon in my journey within Islam
that Islam is yourcompatibility.
Like as long as you were bothpracticing Muslims, that's all
you need.
You don't need anything else.
You know what?
I'd love to hear your insightson this.
What do you think it means whenyou say that somebody is
compatible?
SPEAKER_03 (05:14):
Now, this is a really good question because
compatibility, so many peoplehave a different idea, like you
said, Amanda, about what it is.
And it's about aligning yourwhy.
And we really, of all the workwe have done for so many years
with so many Muslims across theworld, I think we've worked with
Muslims from 11 differentcountries, is that it comes down
to really two different things.
(05:35):
And you touched on one.
And we do believe that having analigned faith is really a great
foundation for compatibility.
But what is an aligned faith?
And we can talk about that fromour perspective on a practical
sense, on a day-to-day, like howdoes that look in marriage?
Because we can all say we're aMuslim, but we practice that
very differently.
And that's really important.
(05:55):
And the second thing is, ishaving a compatible purpose.
And it doesn't mean you're onthe path to the same purpose in
life.
It just means that you're not, Iwould say, interfering.
SPEAKER_02 (06:06):
Yeah, you are opposing the person in terms of
your purpose and they want toplay with you in terms of their
purpose as well.
I'd like to say that beingcompatible doesn't mean that
you're identical, right?
Sometimes some people set out onthis journey thinking that I
want someone who is like me, butyou're not going to marry
yourself, right?
You want to marry someone else.
(06:26):
And invariably, inevitably,you're going to find someone who
is totally different to you.
And the idea is that howdifferent can you actually
handle, so to speak?
You know, how different do youwant this person?
What are the things that you canaccept and what are the things
that you can't accept or the redflag for you as well?
We always talk about that, youknow, on that journey to finding
(06:49):
the one, really knowing yourselfis the the first most important
thing to really get a hold on interms of what are my likes what
are my dislikes what will iaccept what won't i accept and
then what are those boundarieswithin which i can stay in and
boundaries outside of which youknow i can't accept anything and
(07:11):
that's fine so you can have thesame faith and still have
boundaries and say actually i'mnot compatible this person so
sister amanda like you said youknow sameness in terms of faith
doesn't necessarily mean thatyou are compatible and will live
an amazing life journey withthis person next to you as a
muslim
SPEAKER_03 (07:31):
well one of the things we can explain uh we can
get into it is what is analigned faith from a
psychodynamic you know aspectwhen we're talking about that
because it really has threethings it's about understanding
where you come from spiritually.
And some of us have a reallydifficult background.
It kind of comes to coming upwith faith and or an absence of
(07:52):
it completely.
And also, where are you now?
But most importantly, where youwant to be and where you want to
be isn't just Jannah or heaven.
You know, we all have a veryunique learning style.
Some of us don't really workwell with others when it comes
to learning.
A lot of people coming intoIslam They get married and they
(08:13):
think, oh, my spouse is going tolead me and direct me to this
faith and they're going to teachme.
And some people aren't greatteachers and that's okay.
It's about understanding that.
And when we talk aboutcompatibility, it's about
saying, this is the way I learnand how I grow my faith.
How does that work with you?
It's really important.
And we can talk more about that.
And it's something we developedactually for New Beginnings was
(08:35):
the spiritual blueprint.
It's a beautiful thing thathelps people understand
determine what those things are.
It's really, really nice.
But you said something reallybeautiful.
You know, a lot of people I'veheard this so often on so many
different podcasts, make a listof everything you're looking for
and then go become that list.
Okay.
That's nice.
But to be honest, I'll give youan example.
(08:55):
I'm kind of a passionate,anxious person.
I get really, you know, anxietyridden very easily.
And I knew that If I marriedsomeone that was like me, it was
going to be chaos.
So I was looking for someone whotended to be more patient and
SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
calm.
I'm the
SPEAKER_03 (09:12):
opposite.
Yeah.
He keeps us grounded and I keepour dreams alive.
And so we make a really goodbalance.
So sometimes similarity isn'tcompatibility.
And this is so important aboutlike what Taff said, knowing
yourself and what you need.
So when we work with people,even talking about this, whether
you're a Muslim or you're alifelong Muslim, it doesn't
(09:34):
matter.
You have to talk about thesethings because there's so many
beautiful variables in people,definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
So it's not about the similarity or just sharing a
faith because people canactually be at different levels
of religiosity as well.
And it seems to be an assumptionin our community, like the
Hadith says, you know, choosethe pious woman.
Not every single woman is goingto be at such a level of piety
anyway.
Neither are you in reality.
And compatibility is somethingthat I've actually mentioned
(10:03):
frequently in looking for aspouse without actually defining
what it is.
Let me get this straight.
It's actually looking for thewhy, the shared why.
How does a person go about thatthen?
SPEAKER_03 (10:14):
Yeah, I agree with you.
It's not only the why, but it'salso the how.
So if I, let's just say, forexample, For me, attending
religious services and being ina community where I'm actively
seeking my spiritual connectionis essential to my growth in
(10:34):
whatever faith I am in.
And the person I marry goes,absolutely not.
I feel uncomfortable.
I'm an introvert.
We're never going out.
This is uncomfortable.
I'm not going to do it.
It could really stunt yourspiritual growth.
So when we talk aboutcompatibility, it's, yeah, the
why and the how.
It's very, very important.
UNKNOWN (10:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
Thank you.
That's really, really useful.
Another thing we wanted to speakabout is culture clashes.
Sometimes there is a clash ofcultures.
Have you experienced this withpeople you've worked with and
how do you navigate thischallenge?
SPEAKER_02 (11:04):
That's a great question, Sheikh Bilal.
You know, there's intracultureand interculture and they're
both complex terms.
So intraculture will be you'refrom the same culture and you
have a clash and you haveinterculture.
And you still have a clash.
So you have a clash that's acommon denominator.
And so when we look to this abit more deeply, I give the
example of the iceberg conceptof culture.
(11:27):
So, you know, the iceberg is wejust see the 10th above water.
So in this respect, you know, wesee the identity marker.
So someone wears a certain typeof clothing, may have a beard or
do something that you canvisibly see.
But beneath the surface, ninetenths of that culture is ice.
(11:48):
hidden.
So things like your norms, thestories of your culture, the
ways you even communicate.
So some people are very abrasivein the way they approach you and
some people are very quiet andmild.
And these nuances are soimportant for people to
understand that you may comefrom a different culture and it
(12:09):
doesn't necessarily mean it's agood or a bad thing.
It means that you need to bevery curious in terms of what
has this person's livedexperience been that has brought
to this point in their lives,right?
And how does that fare againstwhat I've experienced in life?
As long as two people arewilling to open up a very
healthy dialogue, and dialoguemeaning, you know, you're not
(12:33):
talking about just the what's,but the why's, you know, why do
you do this in a certain way?
You know, what does that bringyou?
I think at that point, peopleare able to understand each
other far better.
Now, Sheikh Bilal, you probablywill cover this later on, but we
know that everyone can havetheir culture as long as it
doesn't contradict the faith.
So wherever your culture has, asit's called, I believe that
(12:57):
anything that, you know, withinyour culture is a tradition
that's healthy and doesn'tcontradict the faith is fine.
And I think there's amisunderstanding about that.
You know, sometimes people willthink that the minute I embrace
Islam, I have to give upeverything that I've ever
experienced my whole life.
And I think that's so sad toeven hear about, which I hope
that more people reallyunderstand it from a wider
(13:19):
perspective.
SPEAKER_03 (13:20):
I would say we face it all, me coming from America
as a white woman, as a convert,and Taff is a British Pakistani.
So we face it all.
We talk about even food, genderroles, expectations when it
comes to culture, even ways ofexpressing love is very
different.
You know, I come from acompletely different background
from TAF, 4,000 miles away.
And there were moments where Ireally felt like we were
(13:43):
speaking different languages,metaphorically and literally.
And so that took time.
But, you know, one of the thingsthat in our work we've
discovered is that it's reallyimportant to know that there are
over 2 billion Muslims in theworld.
And although Muslims can befound in any culture, any
country, the majority of themare living in Northern and
(14:05):
Central Africa, Middle East andSoutheast Asia.
This is so important to know.
So if you are a convert comingto this faith, the likelihood of
you marrying into anotherculture is actually a
probability.
So this is very important for usto talk about because it's sort
of the elephant in the room.
We have to know that it's goingto likely happen.
If you're coming in and you'renot married already, you have to
(14:27):
assume that that's going tohappen.
So you have to be curious.
You have to ask questions.
You have to be able tounderstand what is negotiable
here on the table.
What isn't.
And we always, when we work withcouples, it's so important.
What is the ratio?
69% of all relationshipproblems, whether you are a
Muslim, a Christian, doesn'tmatter what you are, are
perpetual.
(14:47):
You're always going to deal withthem.
You just have to ask yourself,what 69% of the problems do I
want to deal with?
So if you're marrying intoanother culture, you have to be
really aware what comes withthat package.
And am I okay with it?
Because there's going to be somenegotiations and some compromise
that has to happen inevitablyfor you to have an amazing,
amazing marriage.
And I would say, you know, onefailed relationship doesn't mean
(15:09):
the whole culture isincompatible.
I think it's really important tounderstand that, like you said,
there is so much variableswithin culture.
And when I married Taff, youknow, marrying into the British
Pakistani culture, it was alearning curve.
We've had our time of going...
We've had some TED Talks.
We've had some TED Talks.
(15:29):
And I didn't understand it.
You can't understand all of ituntil you're in it.
So you have to ask yourself, amI with someone who's got the
capacity to be patient, askquestions...
instead of being judgmental.
That's more important thanknowing all the little details
of a culture and understandingit.
Is this person willing tounderstand me?
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
Yeah, I think you made a good point about not
being able to fully understandsomething until you're actually
experiencing it yourself andavoiding being judgmental.
But I just want to touch on the69% of perpetual problems.
So let's say somebody'sexperiencing these problems very
early in the marriage and theyrealize you know these things
are just going to continue thisis time to break away from from
(16:13):
the marriage or would you saythey should try to work on that
that 69 or just curious abouthow the person would proceed at
that point knowing that some alot of these problems they're
not really gonna just disappear
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
yeah so that data is from the gotman institute and
john gotman talks about this youknow a lot and and says the the
only thing that any couple cando is manage those issues so as
long as a couple are willing tounderstand that for every day my
desk will look untidy thevictorian needs to be okay with
(16:49):
that that's a small problemthat's a small problem but it's
a perpetual problem but if shekind of took that to heart and
thought that I was doing thatdeliberately, then it would be
not only a perpetual problem, itwould cause chaos perhaps in
some cases.
So the idea is to understandthat perpetual problems
oftentimes will not change.
(17:10):
And that means that there has tobe some negotiation and some
understanding on how to managethose problems.
And that's the key.
SPEAKER_03 (17:16):
Yeah, one of the things that we tell our couples
that we work with is you have tobecome what we call a dream
detective.
You have to understand what isbeneath.
What's at the root of thisproblem?
Because the problem is never theproblem.
It's something deeper.
There is usually a dream or avalue or something that's being
trampled on or being taken awayfrom the person.
(17:37):
And if you become a dreamdetective and you can understand
your spouse, it's unbelievablethe amount of empathy and
ability to be compromised in acategory that you had.
And this is another thing yousaid below.
This is so important is thatpeople think, well, Maybe the
grass is greener, right?
Well, I'll tell you what, you'regoing to get married to someone
else and you're going to have anew 69% of unsolvable problems.
(18:00):
So it's just about youunderstanding how much can we
negotiate here?
And we help couples really lookat what is negotiable here and
what am I not able to compromiseon?
There are some things we justcan't compromise on and there
are some things we can learn tolive without.
SPEAKER_02 (18:15):
And it's unfortunate that what happens is that
oftentimes couples get to apoint where they think that, I
have these problems, and I can'tsolve these problems.
And unfortunately, the worstcase scenario happens, they end
up divorcing, not realizingactually, if I had all the
options and choices in front ofme, I could make an informed
decision.
But oftentimes, they're makingdecisions without any real
(18:37):
information, i.e., like, youknow, we can actually manage
some things, as long as weunderstand each other's
perspective, then perhapsthere'll be greater empathy, so
we can move through thistogether.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
I think it's really interesting the point that
you've brought up about this.
It was a 68% of perpetualproblems.
69.
69% of problems are perpetualproblems.
This is not culture specific.
This is not just in anintercultural marriage.
I mean, I am just thinking ofcouples who I know who are both
the husband and the wife arewhite Welsh converts.
(19:11):
And they still have this 69% ofperpetual problems.
They both come from, you know,the same type of background, the
same type of spiritual journeyeven, subhanAllah.
And yet, on paper, they wouldseem to be the most compatible,
and yet they still have theseproblems.
These are human things.
And I think that we need to, youknow, we need to understand
this, especially as converts.
(19:32):
What would you say to this,though?
Like my personal experience,I've seen a lot of people who
are converts who come into amarriage and there are
differences, as there will be,because no two people are the
same, but they blame theproblems on the other person's
culture.
And very often both parties,both parts of the couple, both
(19:53):
the husband and the wife, willlay the blame for the problem on
the other person's culture beingflawed.
And sometimes it veers intoracism, let's be honest.
Sometimes it veers into, well,you know, you're from this
background and so of course yourpeople think this way.
And sometimes the thenon-convert part of the couple
(20:15):
will be like, oh, well, that'sbecause you were raised in that
culture and that environment andyour people are just down the
pub all the time and et cetera,et cetera, right?
And it can spiral out of controlin a way.
If things start to spiral, ifthe blame starts to be laid on
the wrong place and we stoplooking at what the actual
problem is and start just sortof laying blame and sort of
throwing blame out, how can wereel that in?
(20:37):
How can we sort of recover fromthat kind of thing?
SPEAKER_03 (20:39):
Well, the first thing I would say is the moment
you blame someone else for asituation you're in, you
automatically give them thepower to not only what they're
doing to you, but also the powerto fix it.
That means that you'repowerless.
You can't fix anything.
So there's a couple of things.
Yes.
Some of this is so true, Amanda.
(20:59):
Like I'm not going to lie.
There are, even for me as anAmerican born white woman,
there's a lot of things from myculture that I don't really
resonate with.
I don't feel great about.
I don't like it.
I don't want to see it.
I don't want it on me in mylife.
But it is a part of where I wasraised and how I grew up.
And in some of these things, wehave to understand that we have
(21:21):
to be able to have a realconversation with our spouse and
say what I like, what I don'tlike, and to say, what are you
willing to leave behind orprotect our marriage?
This is a really big thing.
I would say we're almost like ateam.
And If you're looking to comeinto marriage and just keep
everything from your previouslife, your culture, no matter
(21:42):
what, even if it's hurtingsomeone, then it's almost as if
you're not really married.
I would say.
How do you how would you explainthis?
Because we've worked with a lotof couples who had this exact
situation.
I
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
would say what's being said is something on a
deeper level.
So when someone is saying that Idon't like this about your
culture.
Right.
There's something that has deepdown affected them.
And perhaps it's something deepdown within them that has been
stirred.
So maybe a sense of injustice isa real issue, not that your
(22:14):
husband or wife is doingsomething.
It's just this deep sense ofyour extended family don't treat
you in the best way possible.
That's what they're reallysaying.
But they're saying it's yourculture.
Now, I think if we take away theculture and really focus on this
person right in front of me, whohappens to be my life partner,
who I want to take to Jannahwith me, inshallah, right?
(22:39):
Then I have a different way offraming this, that I really want
you to be protected and yourfamily isn't really helping you.
And I'm really concerned, howcan we solve this problem?
And sometimes, you know, whensomeone has an expectation of
their spouse, and theexpectation isn't met, we can
oftentimes make sweepingstatements.
(22:59):
so really it's what victoriasaid earlier we look at the
dreams the aspirations and thedesires deep down what we have
for our marriage what we had forour spouse and how we envision
this future maybe that's beingcompromised right now so it's
about having those deeperconversations in terms of not
(23:20):
what's affected you but why hasthis really affected you And
that's where dialogue is reallyimportant with an open mind,
with empathy, not askingquestions or saying things just
to judge or to, you know, reallyput that person down to see it
from their point of view.
And I think that's the mostimportant thing with any couple,
no matter what.
(23:41):
You could come from the samearea, you know, and you could
still argue.
But the most important thing isthe key ingredients are
remaining curious.
We always say always remaincurious.
Be willing to learn.
Don't ask to judge.
SPEAKER_03 (23:56):
Well, and I would say the last one we always say
is don't ever expect someone tobe a mind reader, talking about
expectations.
And when you have an uncommutedexpectation, that is just a
dream.
It's nothing more than a dream.
So, and I will be honest,Amanda, maybe we'll go into this
conversation, but a lot of thesedifferences, they come down to
(24:17):
gender roles.
When we talk about culturalclashes, it's, well, the women
in my culture or the men in myculture.
And that's really where I wouldsay the majority of these
expectations are coming from.
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
Yeah, so this is a topic that we wanted to touch
on.
Next is the gender roles and theexpectations.
And we see TAF posting a lotabout positive masculinity.
And we see some Muslim men,they've adopted these toxic
behaviors.
narratives following someproblematic personalities and
influences and currently thewhole nation is uh having a
(24:51):
discussion you might have seenthe series adolescence that is
the whole nation is is speakingabout it but kimmy badenock
hasn't been bothered to watch itapparently she's not seen it yet
the whole entire country isspeaking about this program so
uh Can you give some insightinto that?
What do you mean by positivemasculinity to begin with?
(25:11):
Can masculinity be negative?
Is that what you're saying?
There are two sides to it.
It's a
SPEAKER_02 (25:17):
really thought-provoking topic.
And like you said, theadolescence series, we watched
it in fact, has created anational debate on masculinity,
positive, negative, the nuancesin between and the role of a
father.
We have
SPEAKER_03 (25:34):
five sons
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
between us.
So it's a very important topicand we can't escape this topic.
And I actually wrote on this aswell.
I created this handy nine-pointresponse almost to the
adolescence program in terms ofhow our young sons can actually
look at the lens of being ayoung man through the prism of
(25:57):
us being Muslims, in fact.
One of the things that positivemasculinity isn't It isn't
someone who's controlling.
And that key word I'd like toemphasize that whenever I look
at men who are touting thistoxicity online, they're talking
about control, domination,gaining, coveting, taking, you
(26:22):
know, the alpha in the pack thatyou need to take all and sundry.
Otherwise, you're not a realman.
And the problem with that isthat I've worked, like I said
earlier on, almost 30 years inthe community, and I've seen
many alpha men who are brokenmen.
And I don't say that lightly.
One to one, in a quiet room,when you speak to these men, for
(26:43):
some of them, it's a facade,it's a mask, right?
To mask the boy who's inside,who really had a trouble to
bring in, who wasn't able toexpress himself, who wasn't able
to find any comfort, safety,stability, especially in a role
model that was male.
So some of those young men whodidn't have, they had fathers,
(27:06):
but they had absent fathers, andthey had surrogate fathers on
the streets who really gave themeverything in terms of the kudos
and the positive talk, quoteunquote, and the boosting of
their ego to say, no, you can doanything that you want to do.
I'm with you.
I have your back.
Whereas if we look at positivemasculinity, it's about having
(27:27):
strength.
but also having humbleness.
It's having this sense of I'm aprotector to my family, but I'm
also gracious.
I'm also a soft place for myfamily to fall back into.
Men who are emotionallyavailable, who can have a
conversation, who can reallyprocess their emotions and be
(27:47):
able to then guide their familymembers, their sons, their
daughters in terms of whatemotional availability means.
Now, if a man hasn't done thathimself, how can he actually
exhibit that with anyone else?
How can he actually model thatfor someone else?
So for me, positive masculinitymeans that someone has been able
to process their thoughts, theiremotions, and is someone who is
(28:11):
grounded.
Someone can relate to differentsituations and be able to
respond in an appropriate way.
And it might sound cliche, butwe know the Prophet was a
different person and everyoneunderstood him in a different
way according to how they werefacing life, as it were.
And if we look at the Prophet
UNKNOWN (00:00):
,
SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
he was a protector, he was a stabilizer, he was a
man of dignity, a man of honor,but also we look at how he dealt
with many, many people in asoft, calm and compassionate
way.
So there's a huge balance to beattained or I'd say reclaim so
we have to reclaim masculinityespecially for us muslim men to
(28:56):
understand it's okay to beemotional and it's not a sign of
weakness in the right place andit's okay to be someone who
stands up and says it's notacceptable but in a kind and
compassionate way to be able toarticulate what's really going
on and it being a blueprint forespecially our younger men the
younger adolescent men who arereally growing up and seeing,
(29:18):
like you said, Sheikh Bilal, youknow, these quote unquote role
models who, to be honest withyou, put on the front, but
behind closed doors, they'resomeone else.
SPEAKER_03 (29:28):
Absolutely.
And I would even say that a lotof converts that come to Islam,
especially women, were raisedwith the Western mentality.
And that is, we are to be theman.
We are to do it all.
We've got to work full time, beeducated, raise the children,
take care of the house, make thedecisions, be the boss babe, as
(29:50):
you know, people say.
And that's beautiful.
And it's wonderful when itworks.
But then when it doesn't work,we struggle to allow the man to
show up in our life.
And I'm not talking about theman within us.
I'm talking about the real man,the husband.
And so there really is thisbalance.
And a lot of times we're helpingcouples recalibrate.
And it's not about a womanalways living in her softness
(30:13):
and femininity and a man beingthat demanding, commanding
protector 24-7.
It's about a fluctuation andthem learning how to to kind of
be compatible and share thatjourney together.
So no matter where you comefrom, that is a journey.
But I do think in today's world,it is much more difficult and it
is hard.
Gender roles and expectations isprobably one of the biggest
(30:37):
difficulties when you'rethinking about coming into
marriage, especially walkinginto this faith.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
And the most important thing I think you
touched upon there at the end isthat it's going to look
different for every singlecouple.
So your unique blueprint, as itwere, as a couple is going to
look different to your neighbornext door.
So it's about the couple saying,okay, what do we expect from
each other?
And what are our roles?
And you talk about these thingsopenly and work something out
(31:03):
that works for you too, notnecessarily for the Johnsies.
It works out for you.
And that's the most importantthing.
There's nothing that's like ablueprint that says it must look
like this because everyone'ssituation invariably is going to
be different.
SPEAKER_03 (31:16):
I remember when we first got married and we, I met
Taf's family.
They're all Pakistani, beautifulfamily, mashallah, I love them.
And I remember the first bigdinner we had and all the girls
cleaned everything up,subhanAllah.
And I was sitting there and theywouldn't let me touch a thing
because I'm considered an elder,auntie, I'm an auntie.
(31:36):
Auntie, you sit, don't touch athing.
And I was so shocked andsurprised because where I come
from in America, it's like, ifyou're the host, you don't let
any guests touch a thing.
And I had to be, and they werein our home at the time they
were in our home.
And so it was really strange forme.
And at first I thought, this isreally strange.
I don't like this.
Why are the girls supposed to doit?
(31:58):
But they really enjoyed it.
They loved it.
It was their expression of loveand respect to me.
And so it does take time, youknow, to understand these
nuances and some of them areactually, even though they're
very different than what weexperienced growing up, they're
actually really beautiful.
So we have to allow some of thatin and be okay with it.
SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
Yeah, it's a different love language, isn't
it?
One of the things, you know,that baffles me about all of
these, you know, influencersthat promote this narrative, the
Muslim men that take this onboard, that none of it is really
rooted in Islam.
It has no religious basis.
And you reminded me actually ofthe hadith of the Messenger of
(32:35):
Allah, which is the soundnarration, where he says, which
means just treat women kindly,you know, make sure that you
treat women kindly.
And the Messenger of Allah saidthat with the woman, the female
was created from the rib, youknow, meaning Eve, peace be upon
her.
And if the most crooked part ofthe rib is the top part, and if
(32:57):
you try to straighten it, youwill break it.
And if you leave it, then itwill stay as it is.
So treat women kindly.
So the message of the law istelling us that, you know, if
you try to be harsh with women,and, you know, there's a huge
responsibility upon men here aswell.
If you try to be harsh withwomen, if you try to be
(33:18):
domineering, it's not going towork.
So you need to really be gentle.
with with women but um we don'tyou know refer to these
religious texts in any of thatdiscourse unfortunately
SPEAKER_03 (33:32):
no there's this beautiful verse in the quran we
some of us have heard so manytimes it's that they are
garments for you and you aregarments for them and so that
verse it reminds us thatmarriage is mutual it's respect
protection and comfort not justfor the wife, but also for the
husband.
So imagine that it's for both.
And it's not about a hierarchyor ego.
(33:52):
It's so important to rememberthat our faith has this
beautiful blueprint of what lovelooks like and marriage looks
like.
And oftentimes, you know, ittakes people a while when they
come into Islam from ourperspective of separating what
the faith is and who Muslimsare.
You know, we're human andeveryone's perfect.
SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
And one of the things that you alluded to,
Victoria, was that thedifference between demanding
respect and commanding respect.
And I think this is where thetoxic males online really hit it
hard.
They tried to demand respect.
Commanding respect requires somuch work, so much inner work,
(34:33):
so much self-reflection, so muchcurtailing back your ego.
And for me, it's the hardestwork to be able to really get to
a point where you're reallychallenging yourself, right?
To get to a point where you canemulate a character which is
really attractive.
People are gravitating towardswho you are now.
(34:55):
And because they love who youare and they love what you do,
they say, oh, I want a piece ofthat.
I want to be like this personbecause of what they have.
And I think probably the biggesttakeaway for me is that when we
as men as believing men wereable to really be these models
who've done the work onourselves and there's a
(35:18):
statement i heard many years agothat really resonated with me i
think it's relevant that thebest form of dawah, the best
form of calling someone to Islamis with the least words.
And that really hit me hardbecause it's all about your
character.
People will judge you by whatyou do, not what you say.
And I think it's so, so poignantto be able to focus on your
(35:41):
character.
SPEAKER_00 (35:41):
The point about the difference between demanding
respect and commanding respect,I think is incredibly important.
And I would have to say that inmy experience, All my long years
on this earth, all of the menwho I've met who command respect
are not men who are seeking toget respect from others.
They're just being humble, beingthemselves, being the best
(36:03):
people they can be, fearingAllah, and that leads people to
respect them.
But the ones who are demandingrespect, who are seeking it from
others.
They're seeking validation,basically, whether they deserve
that respect or not is a wholeother matter.
And I think that's really whatit comes down to.
And I'm glad that you've broughtthat in.
And I think to be utterly fair,it goes for women too, you know,
(36:25):
and I think there's a lot of usas women who, because as women,
we do have a vulnerability insociety.
And this is true in non-Muslimsociety and in Muslim society,
we have a vulnerability, wedon't have the same type of
influence necessarily as menhave.
And this is a problem.
with what feminism has taught usas Western women.
And, you know, Victoria, I'm thesame as you.
I'm a North American white womanhere coming into Islam and
(36:47):
having been taught that I canhave it all and do it all and be
it all.
And then I hit my 30s and I'mexhausted because I've been
trying to do it all and be itall and have it all, you know.
And that isn't how humans arecreated, let alone women, you
know.
We should be there to help eachother and support each other.
But I think having thathumility, you know, women, when
we're coming...
(37:08):
out of that way of thinking butwe're still looking for well
okay it's the man's job to dothis it's the man's job to pay
for everything it's the man'sjob to support me it's the man's
job to and I shouldn't have todo anything and his money is my
money and my money is my moneyand this kind of mentality
that's sort of starting topermeate the communities these
days and I think too we need tostep back and have a little bit
(37:30):
of humility about this as welland think you know okay is is
this really how it is like ifI'm if I'm getting married yes
okay yes my husband isresponsible for certain things
but what if he falls on hardtimes.
Shouldn't I step up?
Shouldn't I, if I have thecapacity to, shouldn't I do
something to help?
And, you know, and so on.
I see a lot of women online, forbetter or for worse, I don't
know why I've joined thesethings, but I'm a member of a
(37:51):
few Facebook groups for sisterswho are looking for marriage and
they're helping each other,supporting each other, advising
each other.
And some of them, they can bereally derogatory towards men
who are just honestly trying.
Do you know what I mean?
And men who are like, you know,okay, I'm still studying and I
can't pay 100% of the billsright now and maybe I will be
able to in five years, but fornow I can do, can we do 75-25 or
(38:13):
not even 50-50 kind of thing.
And the women are so derogatoryabout it, calling them
princesses and, you know, oh, hejust wants a free ride kind of
thing.
And I think as women, we have tolook at the bigger picture as
well and think about, okay, interms of the gender roles as
Muslims, how should we be?
And who are our examples?
Are influencers online ourexamples, or are the mothers of
(38:35):
the believers our examples, andhow are they, subhanAllah?
When we talk about alpha males,you know, Sheikh Bilal,
subhanAllah, you said that noneof that ideology is rooted in
Islamic teachings, and yet theywill co-opt Islamic teachings.
They will take whatever versesand hadith they can find to back
up what they're saying, andwomen will do the same.
And yet, subhanAllah, if youwant to talk about properly
(38:57):
alpha men, who was the ultimatemale?
was the Prophet ï·º, and yet hewasn't according to what the
modern alpha male would bedefined as, subhanAllah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:08):
Yeah, it's sad how polarised the whole discourse
has been,
SPEAKER_00 (39:13):
you
SPEAKER_01 (39:14):
know, especially on social media.
And I've seen Muslim men andMuslim women misquoting verses
of the Qur'an and misquotinghadith or just posting half of a
hadith, you know, to suit theirown agendas.
But none of us are really goingback to the scholars and back to
the primary texts or looking atwhat the religion has to say in
(39:36):
a holistic manner and having adiscussion about that.
It's just, you know, we're usingthis scripture to attack one
another and support our agendas.
SPEAKER_03 (39:45):
Yeah, what you said, Amanda, was really beautiful.
When Tav and I were courtingfrom 4,000 miles away from each
other and we were getting toknow each other, I'm not
recommending this for anybodywho's listening who's not
married, but for me it worked.
I never asked him how much moneyhe made.
I never asked to see what hiscar looked like, what his house
looked like.
I was much more interested inwho he was, what mission he was
(40:10):
on in life and whether or not wewere really compatible because
here's the thing, looks come andgo, money can come and go.
And this life is so short andyou need someone by your side
who is able to pivot, who'sopen-minded, who's able to
understand you and buildsomething with you.
Even if you want to be thehousewife, even if you don't
(40:31):
want to work, that's one thing,that's fine.
As long as he understands thatand that works for him too and
he loves that.
Or maybe you want to work.
And so I think it, you know, forme, it was important for me to
let Taff know what was importantto me and ask, are you able to
provide that life and build thatwith me?
And he had to ask me the samequestions.
This is the journey I'm on,Victoria.
Are you able to do that with meas well?
And that was really importantfor us because I always say, you
(40:55):
know, I married the VolkswagenGolf.
But I've got the Mercedes now.
Alhamdulillah.
So you never know many yearslater what marriage and life
brings you down the road.
You could marry a very poorperson.
And subhanAllah, God may giveyou so many riches in this life
in other ways, whether it'smonetary value, other blessings.
(41:16):
You're right.
You know, these women lookingfor men who, the 50,000 endowery
mahar, you know, it's a littleridiculous.
SPEAKER_01 (41:25):
The key is go for the gulf.
SPEAKER_03 (41:26):
Go for the gulf.
You never know.
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
Golfs are good cars, actually, if we're not
belittling Volkswagen cars.
SPEAKER_00 (41:33):
At all.
I think Volkswagens are prettygood cars.
Let's move on to our next topicthen.
And this is perhaps a bit of asensitive topic, which is
intimacy.
You know, many of us who areconverts, we come to Islam.
as adults with adultexperiences.
We may have had intimatepartners.
(41:53):
We may have been married before.
We may have children already.
Even if we've not been marriedbefore, a lot of us come from
cultures.
I would say most of us come fromcultures that don't stigmatize
premarital physicalrelationships.
And so we've had thoseexperiences.
And because of this, we canbecome it can be quite a
(42:15):
daunting thing to think aboutthat I'm going to get married to
somebody without having testedthe water, so to speak.
And what if we're notcompatible?
What happens then?
What if on our wedding night, Idiscover horrific things about
him or her that I, you know,that I can't deal with, or it
just, it doesn't work orwhatever, you know, without
getting too graphic.
Is this really something we needto be worried about?
SPEAKER_03 (42:36):
This is such a good question.
It's natural to worry,especially when you've had past
experiences and now you'reapproaching intimacy through
more of a faith lens.
You know, when Taff and I gotmarried, it's really important
for anyone listening to this,Taff and I had been married
twice before we married.
This is our third marriage.
And we were grandparents when wegot married.
(42:57):
So of course we come with ahistory and we can't erase our
history.
It's part of who we are.
But it's really important toknow that intimacy is is so much
more than just physical.
It's about trust, safety.
It's so many different levels,intellectual connection.
And it's way more important tounderstand the person beyond
(43:18):
their physical history and moreso on their ability moving
forward.
And I remember so funny when Iwas courting TAF because we were
long distance.
I had several friends who werenot Muslim.
And they said, Victoria, youhaven't even kissed this man.
You never even held his hand.
What if he's a horrible kisser?
And I said, you know what?
(43:38):
Anyone can learn how to kiss.
It's okay.
We got this.
It's not a big deal.
And you have to have thatmentality going into it.
It's not about, we don't have atry it before you buy it policy.
And I will tell you somethingfor the first time in my life,
having that beautiful waitingperiod period before marriage,
it really made it so much morebeautiful as getting us getting
(44:00):
to know each other.
And I didn't, I think comingfrom a Western background, we
forget that there's a gift inthat.
There's a gift in waiting forsomething and working towards
it.
And when there's this beautifullevel of commitment and sharing
something, it's incredible.
So I'll let you, I know you wantto pop in here, Taff, say
something, I guess.
SPEAKER_02 (44:19):
I'll have to correct you.
What you said was that I'llteach him.
SPEAKER_03 (44:23):
I'll teach him, yeah.
I'll teach him how to kiss.
Let's keep it rated G.
SPEAKER_02 (44:29):
Intimacy, obviously, is one of those sensitive topics
and it's a valid topic.
question and query by people,you know, am I going to be
compatible with this person?
Again, what does compatibilitymean?
And do we reduce it just to thephysical aspect or do we talk
about the emotional intimacy,even the spiritual intimacy, you
(44:50):
know, with another person,intellectual intimacy?
So different levels of intimacyitself.
So the advantage that we had, wedidn't have physical proximity
and that was our advantage, infact.
So we were able to really delveinto the human being know who is
this person what really drivesthis person why are they coming
from what you said earliervictoria you know do they have a
(45:14):
purpose do they have a long-termvision you know what they want
out of life because i know thisfor a fact that you know when
you're connected to someone on adifferent level emotionally
intellectually spiritually imean connect in the sense that
as much as possible in a halalway without being married,
meaning that you've asked enoughrelevant questions to know this
(45:35):
person, that in and of itselfcan create such an attraction to
someone, right, on a differentlevel, as opposed to being just
solely attracted to somebodybecause of their physicality.
I'd like to shift the paradigmin terms of how we even engage
in this conversation and how weeven approach this, that if
you've been trying that before,and in some ways it hasn't led
(45:56):
you to desired place then let'stry something different just try
it just look at you know the thespiritual aspect someone said
that you know we're not humanbeings having a spiritual
experience but we're spiritshaving a physical experience if
we start from our spiritualityand we're spiritual beings man
that just opens up a new door ofcommunication with someone and
(46:18):
they say that you know whenyou're connected to somebody on
a spiritual level, that evenengaging in the physical act can
take you to a different levelaltogether, right?
So imagine that what you thoughtwas a ceiling is actually
perhaps just the beginning.
So the whole notion that, youknow, you have something that's
incredible may not actually bethe threshold.
(46:39):
It could be something far aboveand far deeper than what you
envision.
SPEAKER_03 (46:44):
But let's talk about what you said.
is the luggage we bring, thepackages we bring with us from
our past, okay?
Your past doesn't disqualifyyou.
Your presence, your intention,your effort, that's what
matters.
And it is really important.
We work with a lot of people whoare healing from failed
relationships, whether they weremarried before or they just had
(47:04):
a courtship that didn't work oreven if it was a relationship,
just they were dating someone.
And we have to be really carefulof what energy we bring into a
new relationship.
It's not about lying about yourpast experiences.
It's about deciding, is thisserving me well to constantly
keep remembering and bringingthis up?
And we have to be reallycautious about what we share and
(47:27):
tell somebody because thatinevitably will create an energy
that's really unhealthy in anyrelationship.
So you don't have tonecessarily...
go into detail about your past.
And I think sometimes it's notabout ignoring that it happened.
We had a past, we have a past.
It's just about what details doI share?
What's important and relevantnow here in this relationship
(47:48):
and for me who I am today.
So we don't have to relive.
And the thing is, is look, ashumans, we're jealous.
And jealousy is really the fearof loss.
And some people are more jealousthan others.
You gotta be really cautious.
But we have to just be carefulthat we're not purposely making
a situation worse than it couldbe.
(48:08):
I would say that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Unfortunately, we've run out of time.
So let's continue thisdiscussion in part two, coming
soon, inshallah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:16):
Until next time, assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi
wa barakatuh.
As-salamu alaykum.
You're listening to the NewBeginnings podcast.
No fluff, no holding back.
Just honest conversations aboutyour journey as a new Muslim.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Brought to you by New Beginnings, a platform that
aims to support new Muslims ontheir journey through Islam from
the shahada and beyond.
UNKNOWN (00:18):
Music
SPEAKER_01 (00:23):
As-salamu alaykum and welcome back to the New
Beginnings podcast.
I'm your co-host Bilal Brown.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
And I'm Amanda.
Thank you all for joining us.
Today we're once again delvinginto the timeless subject of
marriage as a convert to Islam.
But this time we're moving pastthe contracts and the walimas
and on to what makes an Islamicmarriage really work.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
So in the past we've spoken many times about the fact
that converting to Islam is notan event.
It's a lifetime of challengesand the same can be said for
marriage.
For converts, these challengescan be more daunting.
So gone are the days of datingfor months or years before
settling down.
Now you're seemingly expected tomeet someone, keep it strictly
(01:05):
halal, and then somehow figureout if this person is the one
within just a few weeks.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
Now, in previous episodes, we've discussed the
fact that converts seem to havea comparatively high divorce
rate.
And we've emphasised the needfor those who are new to Islam
to take the time they need togrow roots as Muslims for
themselves before marrying.
But we also know that this isn'talways practical or feasible.
We also realise that even forthose who have been Muslim all
(01:32):
their lives, happily ever afterisn't guaranteed.
So how can we work towards asuccessful marriage?
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
With us today are our guests, Victoria and Taff.
They are a marriage couple whoset up Tea for Two, which is a
marriage coaching service tohelp Muslim couples achieve the
strongest relationships they canwith their spouses.
You can check out their website.
Please do check that out.
I'll leave a link with thepodcast as well.
So welcome to the podcast, bothof you.
(02:00):
Victoria, you're a convert toIslam, while Taff is not a
convert to Islam, but he's aMuslim, heritage Muslim.
Can you...
Introduce yourselves briefly,please.
SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
Yeah, sure.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much for invitingus.
And it's an honour to be heretoday.
I'm Coach Taff and I've beenworking across the UK in the
youth and community field foraround about 30 years.
So I've been kind of known upand down the country in a public
way.
I'm an award-winningrelationship coach, so I guess
(02:30):
what I have in terms of myexperience is very relevant
today.
And I'm the co-founder of Teafor Two, like you said earlier,
and that's with my wife,Victoria, who sat next to me.
And I actually specialize inworking with Muslim men, and
perhaps later on we can speakabout how that manifests itself.
Mashallah.
SPEAKER_03 (02:49):
I'm Victoria Metesky.
So good to be here with youboth.
And I've now been Muslim,alhamdulillah.
This is, I think it's been eightand a half years.
No, so I still feel sometimeslike I'm a newborn in the faith,
but other times I feel like I'vebeen here for a long time.
So I, as Taff said, I co-foundedTea for Two with him, and we are
(03:10):
both certified relationshipcoaches.
We have been trained by theworld-renowned Gottman
Institute.
They're leaders and experts inrelationship, and we're
currently studying Islamicpsychology with a local
institute here in England.
As you can probably tell by myvoice, I'm not British-born.
I'm from America.
And yeah, so it's been, it'slovely to be here having this
(03:33):
conversation today.
We come with a lifetime ofexperience.
Between us, we have eightchildren and eight
grandchildren, alhamdulillah.
Our oldest children are in their30s.
A lot of what we share and whatwe teach and what we share with
our couples is based not just ontheory, but on life experience.
So we're really excited to bringthat to this conversation today
as well.
SPEAKER_00 (03:52):
Mashallah, eight children and eight
grandchildren.
And tabarakallah, neither of youlook old enough to have
grandchildren.
Let me just say that right now,mashallah.
So welcome, both of you.
It is really great to have youboth on.
I'm really excited about theconversation that we're going to
have today.
And as we've said, today is nottalking about the rules.
of marriage.
(04:12):
We're not talking about therights, the duties, the
responsibilities, and so on.
That's another topic for anothertime.
Today, we're talking to anyonewho is thinking of getting
married, who is actively lookingto get married, and those who
are already married.
It's about how to be within therelationship in a way that will
give it the best chance ofsuccess, inshallah.
(04:33):
So, just to dive right in, We'rejust going to have, like I said,
a very casual conversation aboutit.
But the first topic that we wantto touch on today is
compatibility.
We hear a lot about this.
I, myself, as a convert, havestruggled with this idea.
What does it mean to becompatible?
What is it?
What is it not?
And can converts andnon-converts, heritage Muslims
(04:55):
or non-verts, Be compatible.
I remember being told very earlyon in my journey within Islam
that Islam is yourcompatibility.
Like as long as you were bothpracticing Muslims, that's all
you need.
You don't need anything else.
You know what?
I'd love to hear your insightson this.
What do you think it means whenyou say that somebody is
compatible?
SPEAKER_03 (05:14):
Now, this is a really good question because
compatibility, so many peoplehave a different idea, like you
said, Amanda, about what it is.
And it's about aligning yourwhy.
And we really, of all the workwe have done for so many years
with so many Muslims across theworld, I think we've worked with
Muslims from 11 differentcountries, is that it comes down
to really two different things.
(05:35):
And you touched on one.
And we do believe that having analigned faith is really a great
foundation for compatibility.
But what is an aligned faith?
And we can talk about that fromour perspective on a practical
sense, on a day-to-day, like howdoes that look in marriage?
Because we can all say we're aMuslim, but we practice that
very differently.
And that's really important.
(05:55):
And the second thing is, ishaving a compatible purpose.
And it doesn't mean you're onthe path to the same purpose in
life.
It just means that you're not, Iwould say, interfering.
SPEAKER_02 (06:06):
Yeah, you are opposing the person in terms of
your purpose and they want toplay with you in terms of their
purpose as well.
I'd like to say that beingcompatible doesn't mean that
you're identical, right?
Sometimes some people set out onthis journey thinking that I
want someone who is like me, butyou're not going to marry
yourself, right?
You want to marry someone else.
(06:26):
And invariably, inevitably,you're going to find someone who
is totally different to you.
And the idea is that howdifferent can you actually
handle, so to speak?
You know, how different do youwant this person?
What are the things that you canaccept and what are the things
that you can't accept or the redflag for you as well?
We always talk about that, youknow, on that journey to finding
(06:49):
the one, really knowing yourselfis the the first most important
thing to really get a hold on interms of what are my likes what
are my dislikes what will iaccept what won't i accept and
then what are those boundarieswithin which i can stay in and
boundaries outside of which youknow i can't accept anything and
(07:11):
that's fine so you can have thesame faith and still have
boundaries and say actually i'mnot compatible this person so
sister amanda like you said youknow sameness in terms of faith
doesn't necessarily mean thatyou are compatible and will live
an amazing life journey withthis person next to you as a
muslim
SPEAKER_03 (07:31):
well one of the things we can explain uh we can
get into it is what is analigned faith from a
psychodynamic you know aspectwhen we're talking about that
because it really has threethings it's about understanding
where you come from spiritually.
And some of us have a reallydifficult background.
It kind of comes to coming upwith faith and or an absence of
(07:52):
it completely.
And also, where are you now?
But most importantly, where youwant to be and where you want to
be isn't just Jannah or heaven.
You know, we all have a veryunique learning style.
Some of us don't really workwell with others when it comes
to learning.
A lot of people coming intoIslam They get married and they
(08:13):
think, oh, my spouse is going tolead me and direct me to this
faith and they're going to teachme.
And some people aren't greatteachers and that's okay.
It's about understanding that.
And when we talk aboutcompatibility, it's about
saying, this is the way I learnand how I grow my faith.
How does that work with you?
It's really important.
And we can talk more about that.
And it's something we developedactually for New Beginnings was
(08:35):
the spiritual blueprint.
It's a beautiful thing thathelps people understand
determine what those things are.
It's really, really nice.
But you said something reallybeautiful.
You know, a lot of people I'veheard this so often on so many
different podcasts, make a listof everything you're looking for
and then go become that list.
Okay.
That's nice.
But to be honest, I'll give youan example.
(08:55):
I'm kind of a passionate,anxious person.
I get really, you know, anxietyridden very easily.
And I knew that If I marriedsomeone that was like me, it was
going to be chaos.
So I was looking for someone whotended to be more patient and
SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
calm.
I'm the
SPEAKER_03 (09:12):
opposite.
Yeah.
He keeps us grounded and I keepour dreams alive.
And so we make a really goodbalance.
So sometimes similarity isn'tcompatibility.
And this is so important aboutlike what Taff said, knowing
yourself and what you need.
So when we work with people,even talking about this, whether
you're a Muslim or you're alifelong Muslim, it doesn't
(09:34):
matter.
You have to talk about thesethings because there's so many
beautiful variables in people,definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
So it's not about the similarity or just sharing a
faith because people canactually be at different levels
of religiosity as well.
And it seems to be an assumptionin our community, like the
Hadith says, you know, choosethe pious woman.
Not every single woman is goingto be at such a level of piety
anyway.
Neither are you in reality.
And compatibility is somethingthat I've actually mentioned
(10:03):
frequently in looking for aspouse without actually defining
what it is.
Let me get this straight.
It's actually looking for thewhy, the shared why.
How does a person go about thatthen?
SPEAKER_03 (10:14):
Yeah, I agree with you.
It's not only the why, but it'salso the how.
So if I, let's just say, forexample, For me, attending
religious services and being ina community where I'm actively
seeking my spiritual connectionis essential to my growth in
(10:34):
whatever faith I am in.
And the person I marry goes,absolutely not.
I feel uncomfortable.
I'm an introvert.
We're never going out.
This is uncomfortable.
I'm not going to do it.
It could really stunt yourspiritual growth.
So when we talk aboutcompatibility, it's, yeah, the
why and the how.
It's very, very important.
UNKNOWN (10:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:50):
Thank you.
That's really, really useful.
Another thing we wanted to speakabout is culture clashes.
Sometimes there is a clash ofcultures.
Have you experienced this withpeople you've worked with and
how do you navigate thischallenge?
SPEAKER_02 (11:04):
That's a great question, Sheikh Bilal.
You know, there's intracultureand interculture and they're
both complex terms.
So intraculture will be you'refrom the same culture and you
have a clash and you haveinterculture.
And you still have a clash.
So you have a clash that's acommon denominator.
And so when we look to this abit more deeply, I give the
example of the iceberg conceptof culture.
(11:27):
So, you know, the iceberg is wejust see the 10th above water.
So in this respect, you know, wesee the identity marker.
So someone wears a certain typeof clothing, may have a beard or
do something that you canvisibly see.
But beneath the surface, ninetenths of that culture is ice.
(11:48):
hidden.
So things like your norms, thestories of your culture, the
ways you even communicate.
So some people are very abrasivein the way they approach you and
some people are very quiet andmild.
And these nuances are soimportant for people to
understand that you may comefrom a different culture and it
(12:09):
doesn't necessarily mean it's agood or a bad thing.
It means that you need to bevery curious in terms of what
has this person's livedexperience been that has brought
to this point in their lives,right?
And how does that fare againstwhat I've experienced in life?
As long as two people arewilling to open up a very
healthy dialogue, and dialoguemeaning, you know, you're not
(12:33):
talking about just the what's,but the why's, you know, why do
you do this in a certain way?
You know, what does that bringyou?
I think at that point, peopleare able to understand each
other far better.
Now, Sheikh Bilal, you probablywill cover this later on, but we
know that everyone can havetheir culture as long as it
doesn't contradict the faith.
So wherever your culture has, asit's called, I believe that
(12:57):
anything that, you know, withinyour culture is a tradition
that's healthy and doesn'tcontradict the faith is fine.
And I think there's amisunderstanding about that.
You know, sometimes people willthink that the minute I embrace
Islam, I have to give upeverything that I've ever
experienced my whole life.
And I think that's so sad toeven hear about, which I hope
that more people reallyunderstand it from a wider
(13:19):
perspective.
SPEAKER_03 (13:20):
I would say we face it all, me coming from America
as a white woman, as a convert,and Taff is a British Pakistani.
So we face it all.
We talk about even food, genderroles, expectations when it
comes to culture, even ways ofexpressing love is very
different.
You know, I come from acompletely different background
from TAF, 4,000 miles away.
And there were moments where Ireally felt like we were
(13:43):
speaking different languages,metaphorically and literally.
And so that took time.
But, you know, one of the thingsthat in our work we've
discovered is that it's reallyimportant to know that there are
over 2 billion Muslims in theworld.
And although Muslims can befound in any culture, any
country, the majority of themare living in Northern and
(14:05):
Central Africa, Middle East andSoutheast Asia.
This is so important to know.
So if you are a convert comingto this faith, the likelihood of
you marrying into anotherculture is actually a
probability.
So this is very important for usto talk about because it's sort
of the elephant in the room.
We have to know that it's goingto likely happen.
If you're coming in and you'renot married already, you have to
(14:27):
assume that that's going tohappen.
So you have to be curious.
You have to ask questions.
You have to be able tounderstand what is negotiable
here on the table.
What isn't.
And we always, when we work withcouples, it's so important.
What is the ratio?
69% of all relationshipproblems, whether you are a
Muslim, a Christian, doesn'tmatter what you are, are
perpetual.
(14:47):
You're always going to deal withthem.
You just have to ask yourself,what 69% of the problems do I
want to deal with?
So if you're marrying intoanother culture, you have to be
really aware what comes withthat package.
And am I okay with it?
Because there's going to be somenegotiations and some compromise
that has to happen inevitablyfor you to have an amazing,
amazing marriage.
And I would say, you know, onefailed relationship doesn't mean
(15:09):
the whole culture isincompatible.
I think it's really important tounderstand that, like you said,
there is so much variableswithin culture.
And when I married Taff, youknow, marrying into the British
Pakistani culture, it was alearning curve.
We've had our time of going...
We've had some TED Talks.
We've had some TED Talks.
(15:29):
And I didn't understand it.
You can't understand all of ituntil you're in it.
So you have to ask yourself, amI with someone who's got the
capacity to be patient, askquestions...
instead of being judgmental.
That's more important thanknowing all the little details
of a culture and understandingit.
Is this person willing tounderstand me?
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
Yeah, I think you made a good point about not
being able to fully understandsomething until you're actually
experiencing it yourself andavoiding being judgmental.
But I just want to touch on the69% of perpetual problems.
So let's say somebody'sexperiencing these problems very
early in the marriage and theyrealize you know these things
are just going to continue thisis time to break away from from
(16:13):
the marriage or would you saythey should try to work on that
that 69 or just curious abouthow the person would proceed at
that point knowing that some alot of these problems they're
not really gonna just disappear
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
yeah so that data is from the gotman institute and
john gotman talks about this youknow a lot and and says the the
only thing that any couple cando is manage those issues so as
long as a couple are willing tounderstand that for every day my
desk will look untidy thevictorian needs to be okay with
(16:49):
that that's a small problemthat's a small problem but it's
a perpetual problem but if shekind of took that to heart and
thought that I was doing thatdeliberately, then it would be
not only a perpetual problem, itwould cause chaos perhaps in
some cases.
So the idea is to understandthat perpetual problems
oftentimes will not change.
(17:10):
And that means that there has tobe some negotiation and some
understanding on how to managethose problems.
And that's the key.
SPEAKER_03 (17:16):
Yeah, one of the things that we tell our couples
that we work with is you have tobecome what we call a dream
detective.
You have to understand what isbeneath.
What's at the root of thisproblem?
Because the problem is never theproblem.
It's something deeper.
There is usually a dream or avalue or something that's being
trampled on or being taken awayfrom the person.
(17:37):
And if you become a dreamdetective and you can understand
your spouse, it's unbelievablethe amount of empathy and
ability to be compromised in acategory that you had.
And this is another thing yousaid below.
This is so important is thatpeople think, well, Maybe the
grass is greener, right?
Well, I'll tell you what, you'regoing to get married to someone
else and you're going to have anew 69% of unsolvable problems.
(18:00):
So it's just about youunderstanding how much can we
negotiate here?
And we help couples really lookat what is negotiable here and
what am I not able to compromiseon?
There are some things we justcan't compromise on and there
are some things we can learn tolive without.
SPEAKER_02 (18:15):
And it's unfortunate that what happens is that
oftentimes couples get to apoint where they think that, I
have these problems, and I can'tsolve these problems.
And unfortunately, the worstcase scenario happens, they end
up divorcing, not realizingactually, if I had all the
options and choices in front ofme, I could make an informed
decision.
But oftentimes, they're makingdecisions without any real
(18:37):
information, i.e., like, youknow, we can actually manage
some things, as long as weunderstand each other's
perspective, then perhapsthere'll be greater empathy, so
we can move through thistogether.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
I think it's really interesting the point that
you've brought up about this.
It was a 68% of perpetualproblems.
69.
69% of problems are perpetualproblems.
This is not culture specific.
This is not just in anintercultural marriage.
I mean, I am just thinking ofcouples who I know who are both
the husband and the wife arewhite Welsh converts.
(19:11):
And they still have this 69% ofperpetual problems.
They both come from, you know,the same type of background, the
same type of spiritual journeyeven, subhanAllah.
And yet, on paper, they wouldseem to be the most compatible,
and yet they still have theseproblems.
These are human things.
And I think that we need to, youknow, we need to understand
this, especially as converts.
(19:32):
What would you say to this,though?
Like my personal experience,I've seen a lot of people who
are converts who come into amarriage and there are
differences, as there will be,because no two people are the
same, but they blame theproblems on the other person's
culture.
And very often both parties,both parts of the couple, both
(19:53):
the husband and the wife, willlay the blame for the problem on
the other person's culture beingflawed.
And sometimes it veers intoracism, let's be honest.
Sometimes it veers into, well,you know, you're from this
background and so of course yourpeople think this way.
And sometimes the thenon-convert part of the couple
(20:15):
will be like, oh, well, that'sbecause you were raised in that
culture and that environment andyour people are just down the
pub all the time and et cetera,et cetera, right?
And it can spiral out of controlin a way.
If things start to spiral, ifthe blame starts to be laid on
the wrong place and we stoplooking at what the actual
problem is and start just sortof laying blame and sort of
throwing blame out, how can wereel that in?
(20:37):
How can we sort of recover fromthat kind of thing?
SPEAKER_03 (20:39):
Well, the first thing I would say is the moment
you blame someone else for asituation you're in, you
automatically give them thepower to not only what they're
doing to you, but also the powerto fix it.
That means that you'repowerless.
You can't fix anything.
So there's a couple of things.
Yes.
Some of this is so true, Amanda.
(20:59):
Like I'm not going to lie.
There are, even for me as anAmerican born white woman,
there's a lot of things from myculture that I don't really
resonate with.
I don't feel great about.
I don't like it.
I don't want to see it.
I don't want it on me in mylife.
But it is a part of where I wasraised and how I grew up.
And in some of these things, wehave to understand that we have
(21:21):
to be able to have a realconversation with our spouse and
say what I like, what I don'tlike, and to say, what are you
willing to leave behind orprotect our marriage?
This is a really big thing.
I would say we're almost like ateam.
And If you're looking to comeinto marriage and just keep
everything from your previouslife, your culture, no matter
(21:42):
what, even if it's hurtingsomeone, then it's almost as if
you're not really married.
I would say.
How do you how would you explainthis?
Because we've worked with a lotof couples who had this exact
situation.
I
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
would say what's being said is something on a
deeper level.
So when someone is saying that Idon't like this about your
culture.
Right.
There's something that has deepdown affected them.
And perhaps it's something deepdown within them that has been
stirred.
So maybe a sense of injustice isa real issue, not that your
(22:14):
husband or wife is doingsomething.
It's just this deep sense ofyour extended family don't treat
you in the best way possible.
That's what they're reallysaying.
But they're saying it's yourculture.
Now, I think if we take away theculture and really focus on this
person right in front of me, whohappens to be my life partner,
who I want to take to Jannahwith me, inshallah, right?
(22:39):
Then I have a different way offraming this, that I really want
you to be protected and yourfamily isn't really helping you.
And I'm really concerned, howcan we solve this problem?
And sometimes, you know, whensomeone has an expectation of
their spouse, and theexpectation isn't met, we can
oftentimes make sweepingstatements.
(22:59):
so really it's what victoriasaid earlier we look at the
dreams the aspirations and thedesires deep down what we have
for our marriage what we had forour spouse and how we envision
this future maybe that's beingcompromised right now so it's
about having those deeperconversations in terms of not
(23:20):
what's affected you but why hasthis really affected you And
that's where dialogue is reallyimportant with an open mind,
with empathy, not askingquestions or saying things just
to judge or to, you know, reallyput that person down to see it
from their point of view.
And I think that's the mostimportant thing with any couple,
no matter what.
(23:41):
You could come from the samearea, you know, and you could
still argue.
But the most important thing isthe key ingredients are
remaining curious.
We always say always remaincurious.
Be willing to learn.
Don't ask to judge.
SPEAKER_03 (23:56):
Well, and I would say the last one we always say
is don't ever expect someone tobe a mind reader, talking about
expectations.
And when you have an uncommutedexpectation, that is just a
dream.
It's nothing more than a dream.
So, and I will be honest,Amanda, maybe we'll go into this
conversation, but a lot of thesedifferences, they come down to
(24:17):
gender roles.
When we talk about culturalclashes, it's, well, the women
in my culture or the men in myculture.
And that's really where I wouldsay the majority of these
expectations are coming from.
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
Yeah, so this is a topic that we wanted to touch
on.
Next is the gender roles and theexpectations.
And we see TAF posting a lotabout positive masculinity.
And we see some Muslim men,they've adopted these toxic
behaviors.
narratives following someproblematic personalities and
influences and currently thewhole nation is uh having a
(24:51):
discussion you might have seenthe series adolescence that is
the whole nation is is speakingabout it but kimmy badenock
hasn't been bothered to watch itapparently she's not seen it yet
the whole entire country isspeaking about this program so
uh Can you give some insightinto that?
What do you mean by positivemasculinity to begin with?
(25:11):
Can masculinity be negative?
Is that what you're saying?
There are two sides to it.
It's a
SPEAKER_02 (25:17):
really thought-provoking topic.
And like you said, theadolescence series, we watched
it in fact, has created anational debate on masculinity,
positive, negative, the nuancesin between and the role of a
father.
We have
SPEAKER_03 (25:34):
five sons
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
between us.
So it's a very important topicand we can't escape this topic.
And I actually wrote on this aswell.
I created this handy nine-pointresponse almost to the
adolescence program in terms ofhow our young sons can actually
look at the lens of being ayoung man through the prism of
(25:57):
us being Muslims, in fact.
One of the things that positivemasculinity isn't It isn't
someone who's controlling.
And that key word I'd like toemphasize that whenever I look
at men who are touting thistoxicity online, they're talking
about control, domination,gaining, coveting, taking, you
(26:22):
know, the alpha in the pack thatyou need to take all and sundry.
Otherwise, you're not a realman.
And the problem with that isthat I've worked, like I said
earlier on, almost 30 years inthe community, and I've seen
many alpha men who are brokenmen.
And I don't say that lightly.
One to one, in a quiet room,when you speak to these men, for
(26:43):
some of them, it's a facade,it's a mask, right?
To mask the boy who's inside,who really had a trouble to
bring in, who wasn't able toexpress himself, who wasn't able
to find any comfort, safety,stability, especially in a role
model that was male.
So some of those young men whodidn't have, they had fathers,
(27:06):
but they had absent fathers, andthey had surrogate fathers on
the streets who really gave themeverything in terms of the kudos
and the positive talk, quoteunquote, and the boosting of
their ego to say, no, you can doanything that you want to do.
I'm with you.
I have your back.
Whereas if we look at positivemasculinity, it's about having
(27:27):
strength.
but also having humbleness.
It's having this sense of I'm aprotector to my family, but I'm
also gracious.
I'm also a soft place for myfamily to fall back into.
Men who are emotionallyavailable, who can have a
conversation, who can reallyprocess their emotions and be
(27:47):
able to then guide their familymembers, their sons, their
daughters in terms of whatemotional availability means.
Now, if a man hasn't done thathimself, how can he actually
exhibit that with anyone else?
How can he actually model thatfor someone else?
So for me, positive masculinitymeans that someone has been able
to process their thoughts, theiremotions, and is someone who is
(28:11):
grounded.
Someone can relate to differentsituations and be able to
respond in an appropriate way.
And it might sound cliche, butwe know the Prophet was a
different person and everyoneunderstood him in a different
way according to how they werefacing life, as it were.
And if we look at the Prophet
UNKNOWN (00:00):
,
SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
he was a protector, he was a stabilizer, he was a
man of dignity, a man of honor,but also we look at how he dealt
with many, many people in asoft, calm and compassionate
way.
So there's a huge balance to beattained or I'd say reclaim so
we have to reclaim masculinityespecially for us muslim men to
(28:56):
understand it's okay to beemotional and it's not a sign of
weakness in the right place andit's okay to be someone who
stands up and says it's notacceptable but in a kind and
compassionate way to be able toarticulate what's really going
on and it being a blueprint forespecially our younger men the
younger adolescent men who arereally growing up and seeing,
(29:18):
like you said, Sheikh Bilal, youknow, these quote unquote role
models who, to be honest withyou, put on the front, but
behind closed doors, they'resomeone else.
SPEAKER_03 (29:28):
Absolutely.
And I would even say that a lotof converts that come to Islam,
especially women, were raisedwith the Western mentality.
And that is, we are to be theman.
We are to do it all.
We've got to work full time, beeducated, raise the children,
take care of the house, make thedecisions, be the boss babe, as
(29:50):
you know, people say.
And that's beautiful.
And it's wonderful when itworks.
But then when it doesn't work,we struggle to allow the man to
show up in our life.
And I'm not talking about theman within us.
I'm talking about the real man,the husband.
And so there really is thisbalance.
And a lot of times we're helpingcouples recalibrate.
And it's not about a womanalways living in her softness
(30:13):
and femininity and a man beingthat demanding, commanding
protector 24-7.
It's about a fluctuation andthem learning how to to kind of
be compatible and share thatjourney together.
So no matter where you comefrom, that is a journey.
But I do think in today's world,it is much more difficult and it
is hard.
Gender roles and expectations isprobably one of the biggest
(30:37):
difficulties when you'rethinking about coming into
marriage, especially walkinginto this faith.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
And the most important thing I think you
touched upon there at the end isthat it's going to look
different for every singlecouple.
So your unique blueprint, as itwere, as a couple is going to
look different to your neighbornext door.
So it's about the couple saying,okay, what do we expect from
each other?
And what are our roles?
And you talk about these thingsopenly and work something out
(31:03):
that works for you too, notnecessarily for the Johnsies.
It works out for you.
And that's the most importantthing.
There's nothing that's like ablueprint that says it must look
like this because everyone'ssituation invariably is going to
be different.
SPEAKER_03 (31:16):
I remember when we first got married and we, I met
Taf's family.
They're all Pakistani, beautifulfamily, mashallah, I love them.
And I remember the first bigdinner we had and all the girls
cleaned everything up,subhanAllah.
And I was sitting there and theywouldn't let me touch a thing
because I'm considered an elder,auntie, I'm an auntie.
(31:36):
Auntie, you sit, don't touch athing.
And I was so shocked andsurprised because where I come
from in America, it's like, ifyou're the host, you don't let
any guests touch a thing.
And I had to be, and they werein our home at the time they
were in our home.
And so it was really strange forme.
And at first I thought, this isreally strange.
I don't like this.
Why are the girls supposed to doit?
(31:58):
But they really enjoyed it.
They loved it.
It was their expression of loveand respect to me.
And so it does take time, youknow, to understand these
nuances and some of them areactually, even though they're
very different than what weexperienced growing up, they're
actually really beautiful.
So we have to allow some of thatin and be okay with it.
SPEAKER_01 (32:13):
Yeah, it's a different love language, isn't
it?
One of the things, you know,that baffles me about all of
these, you know, influencersthat promote this narrative, the
Muslim men that take this onboard, that none of it is really
rooted in Islam.
It has no religious basis.
And you reminded me actually ofthe hadith of the Messenger of
(32:35):
Allah, which is the soundnarration, where he says, which
means just treat women kindly,you know, make sure that you
treat women kindly.
And the Messenger of Allah saidthat with the woman, the female
was created from the rib, youknow, meaning Eve, peace be upon
her.
And if the most crooked part ofthe rib is the top part, and if
(32:57):
you try to straighten it, youwill break it.
And if you leave it, then itwill stay as it is.
So treat women kindly.
So the message of the law istelling us that, you know, if
you try to be harsh with women,and, you know, there's a huge
responsibility upon men here aswell.
If you try to be harsh withwomen, if you try to be
(33:18):
domineering, it's not going towork.
So you need to really be gentle.
with with women but um we don'tyou know refer to these
religious texts in any of thatdiscourse unfortunately
SPEAKER_03 (33:32):
no there's this beautiful verse in the quran we
some of us have heard so manytimes it's that they are
garments for you and you aregarments for them and so that
verse it reminds us thatmarriage is mutual it's respect
protection and comfort not justfor the wife, but also for the
husband.
So imagine that it's for both.
And it's not about a hierarchyor ego.
(33:52):
It's so important to rememberthat our faith has this
beautiful blueprint of what lovelooks like and marriage looks
like.
And oftentimes, you know, ittakes people a while when they
come into Islam from ourperspective of separating what
the faith is and who Muslimsare.
You know, we're human andeveryone's perfect.
SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
And one of the things that you alluded to,
Victoria, was that thedifference between demanding
respect and commanding respect.
And I think this is where thetoxic males online really hit it
hard.
They tried to demand respect.
Commanding respect requires somuch work, so much inner work,
(34:33):
so much self-reflection, so muchcurtailing back your ego.
And for me, it's the hardestwork to be able to really get to
a point where you're reallychallenging yourself, right?
To get to a point where you canemulate a character which is
really attractive.
People are gravitating towardswho you are now.
(34:55):
And because they love who youare and they love what you do,
they say, oh, I want a piece ofthat.
I want to be like this personbecause of what they have.
And I think probably the biggesttakeaway for me is that when we
as men as believing men wereable to really be these models
who've done the work onourselves and there's a
(35:18):
statement i heard many years agothat really resonated with me i
think it's relevant that thebest form of dawah, the best
form of calling someone to Islamis with the least words.
And that really hit me hardbecause it's all about your
character.
People will judge you by whatyou do, not what you say.
And I think it's so, so poignantto be able to focus on your
(35:41):
character.
SPEAKER_00 (35:41):
The point about the difference between demanding
respect and commanding respect,I think is incredibly important.
And I would have to say that inmy experience, All my long years
on this earth, all of the menwho I've met who command respect
are not men who are seeking toget respect from others.
They're just being humble, beingthemselves, being the best
(36:03):
people they can be, fearingAllah, and that leads people to
respect them.
But the ones who are demandingrespect, who are seeking it from
others.
They're seeking validation,basically, whether they deserve
that respect or not is a wholeother matter.
And I think that's really whatit comes down to.
And I'm glad that you've broughtthat in.
And I think to be utterly fair,it goes for women too, you know,
(36:25):
and I think there's a lot of usas women who, because as women,
we do have a vulnerability insociety.
And this is true in non-Muslimsociety and in Muslim society,
we have a vulnerability, wedon't have the same type of
influence necessarily as menhave.
And this is a problem.
with what feminism has taught usas Western women.
And, you know, Victoria, I'm thesame as you.
I'm a North American white womanhere coming into Islam and
(36:47):
having been taught that I canhave it all and do it all and be
it all.
And then I hit my 30s and I'mexhausted because I've been
trying to do it all and be itall and have it all, you know.
And that isn't how humans arecreated, let alone women, you
know.
We should be there to help eachother and support each other.
But I think having thathumility, you know, women, when
we're coming...
(37:08):
out of that way of thinking butwe're still looking for well
okay it's the man's job to dothis it's the man's job to pay
for everything it's the man'sjob to support me it's the man's
job to and I shouldn't have todo anything and his money is my
money and my money is my moneyand this kind of mentality
that's sort of starting topermeate the communities these
days and I think too we need tostep back and have a little bit
(37:30):
of humility about this as welland think you know okay is is
this really how it is like ifI'm if I'm getting married yes
okay yes my husband isresponsible for certain things
but what if he falls on hardtimes.
Shouldn't I step up?
Shouldn't I, if I have thecapacity to, shouldn't I do
something to help?
And, you know, and so on.
I see a lot of women online, forbetter or for worse, I don't
know why I've joined thesethings, but I'm a member of a
(37:51):
few Facebook groups for sisterswho are looking for marriage and
they're helping each other,supporting each other, advising
each other.
And some of them, they can bereally derogatory towards men
who are just honestly trying.
Do you know what I mean?
And men who are like, you know,okay, I'm still studying and I
can't pay 100% of the billsright now and maybe I will be
able to in five years, but fornow I can do, can we do 75-25 or
(38:13):
not even 50-50 kind of thing.
And the women are so derogatoryabout it, calling them
princesses and, you know, oh, hejust wants a free ride kind of
thing.
And I think as women, we have tolook at the bigger picture as
well and think about, okay, interms of the gender roles as
Muslims, how should we be?
And who are our examples?
Are influencers online ourexamples, or are the mothers of
(38:35):
the believers our examples, andhow are they, subhanAllah?
When we talk about alpha males,you know, Sheikh Bilal,
subhanAllah, you said that noneof that ideology is rooted in
Islamic teachings, and yet theywill co-opt Islamic teachings.
They will take whatever versesand hadith they can find to back
up what they're saying, andwomen will do the same.
And yet, subhanAllah, if youwant to talk about properly
(38:57):
alpha men, who was the ultimatemale?
was the Prophet ï·º, and yet hewasn't according to what the
modern alpha male would bedefined as, subhanAllah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:08):
Yeah, it's sad how polarised the whole discourse
has been,
SPEAKER_00 (39:13):
you
SPEAKER_01 (39:14):
know, especially on social media.
And I've seen Muslim men andMuslim women misquoting verses
of the Qur'an and misquotinghadith or just posting half of a
hadith, you know, to suit theirown agendas.
But none of us are really goingback to the scholars and back to
the primary texts or looking atwhat the religion has to say in
(39:36):
a holistic manner and having adiscussion about that.
It's just, you know, we're usingthis scripture to attack one
another and support our agendas.
SPEAKER_03 (39:45):
Yeah, what you said, Amanda, was really beautiful.
When Tav and I were courtingfrom 4,000 miles away from each
other and we were getting toknow each other, I'm not
recommending this for anybodywho's listening who's not
married, but for me it worked.
I never asked him how much moneyhe made.
I never asked to see what hiscar looked like, what his house
looked like.
I was much more interested inwho he was, what mission he was
(40:10):
on in life and whether or not wewere really compatible because
here's the thing, looks come andgo, money can come and go.
And this life is so short andyou need someone by your side
who is able to pivot, who'sopen-minded, who's able to
understand you and buildsomething with you.
Even if you want to be thehousewife, even if you don't
(40:31):
want to work, that's one thing,that's fine.
As long as he understands thatand that works for him too and
he loves that.
Or maybe you want to work.
And so I think it, you know, forme, it was important for me to
let Taff know what was importantto me and ask, are you able to
provide that life and build thatwith me?
And he had to ask me the samequestions.
This is the journey I'm on,Victoria.
Are you able to do that with meas well?
And that was really importantfor us because I always say, you
(40:55):
know, I married the VolkswagenGolf.
But I've got the Mercedes now.
Alhamdulillah.
So you never know many yearslater what marriage and life
brings you down the road.
You could marry a very poorperson.
And subhanAllah, God may giveyou so many riches in this life
in other ways, whether it'smonetary value, other blessings.
(41:16):
You're right.
You know, these women lookingfor men who, the 50,000 endowery
mahar, you know, it's a littleridiculous.
SPEAKER_01 (41:25):
The key is go for the gulf.
SPEAKER_03 (41:26):
Go for the gulf.
You never know.
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
Golfs are good cars, actually, if we're not
belittling Volkswagen cars.
SPEAKER_00 (41:33):
At all.
I think Volkswagens are prettygood cars.
Let's move on to our next topicthen.
And this is perhaps a bit of asensitive topic, which is
intimacy.
You know, many of us who areconverts, we come to Islam.
as adults with adultexperiences.
We may have had intimatepartners.
(41:53):
We may have been married before.
We may have children already.
Even if we've not been marriedbefore, a lot of us come from
cultures.
I would say most of us come fromcultures that don't stigmatize
premarital physicalrelationships.
And so we've had thoseexperiences.
And because of this, we canbecome it can be quite a
(42:15):
daunting thing to think aboutthat I'm going to get married to
somebody without having testedthe water, so to speak.
And what if we're notcompatible?
What happens then?
What if on our wedding night, Idiscover horrific things about
him or her that I, you know,that I can't deal with, or it
just, it doesn't work orwhatever, you know, without
getting too graphic.
Is this really something we needto be worried about?
SPEAKER_03 (42:36):
This is such a good question.
It's natural to worry,especially when you've had past
experiences and now you'reapproaching intimacy through
more of a faith lens.
You know, when Taff and I gotmarried, it's really important
for anyone listening to this,Taff and I had been married
twice before we married.
This is our third marriage.
And we were grandparents when wegot married.
(42:57):
So of course we come with ahistory and we can't erase our
history.
It's part of who we are.
But it's really important toknow that intimacy is is so much
more than just physical.
It's about trust, safety.
It's so many different levels,intellectual connection.
And it's way more important tounderstand the person beyond
(43:18):
their physical history and moreso on their ability moving
forward.
And I remember so funny when Iwas courting TAF because we were
long distance.
I had several friends who werenot Muslim.
And they said, Victoria, youhaven't even kissed this man.
You never even held his hand.
What if he's a horrible kisser?
And I said, you know what?
(43:38):
Anyone can learn how to kiss.
It's okay.
We got this.
It's not a big deal.
And you have to have thatmentality going into it.
It's not about, we don't have atry it before you buy it policy.
And I will tell you somethingfor the first time in my life,
having that beautiful waitingperiod period before marriage,
it really made it so much morebeautiful as getting us getting
(44:00):
to know each other.
And I didn't, I think comingfrom a Western background, we
forget that there's a gift inthat.
There's a gift in waiting forsomething and working towards
it.
And when there's this beautifullevel of commitment and sharing
something, it's incredible.
So I'll let you, I know you wantto pop in here, Taff, say
something, I guess.
SPEAKER_02 (44:19):
I'll have to correct you.
What you said was that I'llteach him.
SPEAKER_03 (44:23):
I'll teach him, yeah.
I'll teach him how to kiss.
Let's keep it rated G.
SPEAKER_02 (44:29):
Intimacy, obviously, is one of those sensitive topics
and it's a valid topic.
question and query by people,you know, am I going to be
compatible with this person?
Again, what does compatibilitymean?
And do we reduce it just to thephysical aspect or do we talk
about the emotional intimacy,even the spiritual intimacy, you
(44:50):
know, with another person,intellectual intimacy?
So different levels of intimacyitself.
So the advantage that we had, wedidn't have physical proximity
and that was our advantage, infact.
So we were able to really delveinto the human being know who is
this person what really drivesthis person why are they coming
from what you said earliervictoria you know do they have a
(45:14):
purpose do they have a long-termvision you know what they want
out of life because i know thisfor a fact that you know when
you're connected to someone on adifferent level emotionally
intellectually spiritually imean connect in the sense that
as much as possible in a halalway without being married,
meaning that you've asked enoughrelevant questions to know this
(45:35):
person, that in and of itselfcan create such an attraction to
someone, right, on a differentlevel, as opposed to being just
solely attracted to somebodybecause of their physicality.
I'd like to shift the paradigmin terms of how we even engage
in this conversation and how weeven approach this, that if
you've been trying that before,and in some ways it hasn't led
(45:56):
you to desired place then let'stry something different just try
it just look at you know the thespiritual aspect someone said
that you know we're not humanbeings having a spiritual
experience but we're spiritshaving a physical experience if
we start from our spiritualityand we're spiritual beings man
that just opens up a new door ofcommunication with someone and
(46:18):
they say that you know whenyou're connected to somebody on
a spiritual level, that evenengaging in the physical act can
take you to a different levelaltogether, right?
So imagine that what you thoughtwas a ceiling is actually
perhaps just the beginning.
So the whole notion that, youknow, you have something that's
incredible may not actually bethe threshold.
(46:39):
It could be something far aboveand far deeper than what you
envision.
SPEAKER_03 (46:44):
But let's talk about what you said.
is the luggage we bring, thepackages we bring with us from
our past, okay?
Your past doesn't disqualifyyou.
Your presence, your intention,your effort, that's what
matters.
And it is really important.
We work with a lot of people whoare healing from failed
relationships, whether they weremarried before or they just had
(47:04):
a courtship that didn't work oreven if it was a relationship,
just they were dating someone.
And we have to be really carefulof what energy we bring into a
new relationship.
It's not about lying about yourpast experiences.
It's about deciding, is thisserving me well to constantly
keep remembering and bringingthis up?
And we have to be reallycautious about what we share and
(47:27):
tell somebody because thatinevitably will create an energy
that's really unhealthy in anyrelationship.
So you don't have tonecessarily...
go into detail about your past.
And I think sometimes it's notabout ignoring that it happened.
We had a past, we have a past.
It's just about what details doI share?
What's important and relevantnow here in this relationship
(47:48):
and for me who I am today.
So we don't have to relive.
And the thing is, is look, ashumans, we're jealous.
And jealousy is really the fearof loss.
And some people are more jealousthan others.
You gotta be really cautious.
But we have to just be carefulthat we're not purposely making
a situation worse than it couldbe.
(48:08):
I would say that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Unfortunately, we've run out of time.
So let's continue thisdiscussion in part two, coming
soon, inshallah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:16):
Until next time, assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi
wa barakatuh.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.