December 23, 2025 • 31 mins
New Hampshire has issues, but what about Congress?
Liz and Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander talk about it all: the US Constitution, war powers, John McCain, post offices, what to do at the holidays if your family's views are vastly different than your own...
Pairs well with Niko Papakonstantis’ episode about Select Boards and Property Taxes
New episodes coming in 2026!
Become a monthly supporter of the show
Have an idea for an upcoming episode? Email Liz: newhampshirehasissues@gmail.com
Links:
- Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander's Constituent Services
- Read the US Constitution
- Read Our Town
- House Passes Goodlander’s Bipartisan Bill to Bolster Rural Small Businesses
- Trump calls Goodlander and other Democrats 'traitors' for urging military to defy 'illegal orders' (NHPR)
- House and Senate both approve releasing the Epstein files by a near unanimous margin (NPR)
- Trump’s Power Grab Over the Budget Is Breaking the Constitutional Design (The Atlantic)
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New Hampshire Has Issues is generously sponsored by Seacoast Soils, an organic compost and topsoil provider for New Hampshire, Maine, and Northeast Massachusetts. Visit their website at www.seacoastsoil.com!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz Canada (00:00):
I heard a rumor actually that you have listened
to the podcast before and thatyou listened to an episode
that had Niko Papakonstantison it about select boards and
property taxes and deliberativesessions.
And I'm my first question foryou is Isn't Niko incredible?
Isn't he a wonderful humanbeing?
Congresswoman Goodlander (00:20):
He really is.
I mean, I'm not a person wholistens to many podcasts at all,
but I get to drive a lot thesedays.
My husband said to me, youshould just look for a podcast
that interests you.
So I I immediately found yours.
It's the first podcast I reallylistened to.
Liz Canada (00:36):
Okay.
Well, I actually have the onlypodcast.
There are no other podcasts outthere.
You're listening to NewHampshire Has Issues, and I am
your host, Liz Canada.
(00:57):
And even though I say this awhole bunch in the episode, I am
so honored that CongresswomanMaggie Goodlander came onto my
podcast and that she is alistener of the podcast.
I suddenly feel an overwhelmingamount of pressure.
Not that I already didn't thinkabout that with you as a
(01:17):
listener, even if you are not acongressperson, but if you know
a congressperson who shouldlisten to the show, send them a
link.
We covered a lot of ground inthis episode.
We talked about the USConstitution, we talked about
war powers, we talked aboutgerrymandering, we talked about
term limits, we talked aboutwhat a discharge petition is, we
talked about John McCain.
(01:37):
We talked about uh postoffices.
We talked about the Epsteinfiles.
This is the weirdest sentence Ihave ever said aloud, which
feels uh especially fitting in2025.
I am wishing 2025 goodbyeforever, though I have loved
making this podcast, and it willcontinue in 2026.
(01:59):
I have a lot of guests alreadyuh recorded and I'm going to
spend my holiday break gettingthose ready.
Uh and I have a lot more queuedup with interviews in January
and February.
But if you have an idea for anepisode, send me an email.
Newhampshire hasissues atgmail.com.
And if you would like to be amonthly supporter, of which I
would be incredibly grateful,you can visit patreon.com slash
(02:22):
nh has issues.
Thank you to Seaco Soils whosponsors this podcast.
But most of all, thank you forlistening.
Whether you're a congresspersonor someone I know and have
coffee with regularly, or we'venever met, and I'm just a voice
in your headphones or your caror your kitchen, and you don't
(02:42):
even know what I look like.
Thank you for listening.
All right, I'm gonna pass itback over to me.
I'm so honored that you'velistened to this podcast.
Thank you so much.
Congresswoman Goodlander (02:53):
And in fact, today I was sitting with
a select board member fromanother town, and I said, you've
got to listen to the podcastwith Niko, and you've got to get
on this podcast because youknow this because in your town
you see it, that the the voterturnout for our town meetings,
for really anything at the locallevel, it's just we need people
(03:14):
to show up and to really beengaged at every level that it
all fits together in suchcritical ways that we've got to
hang on to it.
Liz Canada (03:21):
Absolutely.
And serving on the selectboard, you know, my wife is on
the select board here in Exeter,and it's a big commitment to
do, but it's so incrediblyimportant because our t our
state is really run byvolunteers in a lot of way,
people who step up to serve andwant to make their communities a
little bit better and a littlebit stronger.
(03:42):
So thank you for listening tothat episode and uh any other
episodes that you have.
I should do your intro though.
I'm gonna take a deep breathbecause this is quite the bio
that I have in front of me.
My guest today has been a navalofficer, a foreign policy
advisor to John McCain, a lawclerk on the United States
Supreme Court.
She has served as counsel onthe House Judiciary Committee
(04:05):
during the first impeachment ofDonald Trump.
She was an attorney at theDepartment of Justice during the
Biden administration.
She was a senior White Houseadvisor.
She taught constitutional law,and now she's a member of the
U.S.
House of Representatives forNew Hampshire's second district.
Welcome to the show.
The abundantly qualified forpretty much everything, Maggie
(04:25):
Goodlander.
Congresswoman, holy smokes, I'mso honored that you're here.
Thank you for being on theshow.
I'm so thrilled to be here.
I cannot put into words howexcited I am that you're here.
Let's start with a simplequestion.
You know, I've done episodesabout the New Hampshire House
and Senate, the governor, theexecutive council, whatever that
is.
But my simple question for you,Congresswoman, is what the heck
(04:48):
is Congress?
What do you all do in Congress?
Help me and help the listenerunderstand.
I was terrible in in highschool and civics, so give me
the breakdown.
What is Congress?
Congresswoman Goodlander (04:58):
Well, Congress, the word itself means
it's got Latin roots, it means acoming together.
The Congress, in many ways, Ireally believe that New
Hampshire is the state thatcreated the United States of
America.
We were the ninth to ratify ourConstitution.
But it really was the Congressthat the roots of this Congress
(05:18):
that I serve in now that were atthe forefront of declaring
independence, that really helpedto forge the country that we
are now working every day tocontinue.
This really fragile experiment.
But the Congress, what I'd sayto your listeners, I'm gonna
make a pitch for reading theConstitution because it takes 30
(05:40):
minutes, but even if you juststarted with Article One, it's a
great read.
And it really gives you theessential foundations of what
Congress does.
You know, we've got two housesof Congress, just as we do in
the New Hampshire legislature,the House and the Senate.
And the House is the firstinstitution that the United
States Constitution creates.
(06:00):
So the idea was the world hadnever known anything like this.
Liz Canada (06:04):
Yeah.
Congresswoman Goodlander (06:05):
The idea of a directly elected
representative from the people,of the people, by the people,
for the people was not somethingthat had ever happened before
in human history.
So we are we are the body thatis closest at the federal level
to the American people.
So it's every two years we haveto seek seek reelection.
No one serves in the House ofRepresentatives who has not been
(06:27):
elected.
There are no appointments tothe House.
And I think that that matters.
You know, we live in agerrymandered moment, but our
roles and responsibilities arein the House.
We have the power of the purse.
We make the decisions aboutfederal spending.
We make decisions abouttaxation.
We make decisions aboutdeclarations of war, and we're
(06:48):
entrusted with theresponsibility of managing our
armed forces for the UnitedStates.
These are all, I should say,these are three really core
responsibilities that we have inCongress.
We're responsible for creatingpost offices and postal roads.
Um we have a lot of responsiblefor weights and measures.
You guys are in charge of post,like making post offices?
(07:09):
Yes, actually, it's right herein Article One.
Um it's it it it's it's toestablish post offices and post
roads.
It's right here in Article One.
Liz Canada (07:19):
Listener, um, if this is an audio podcast, she is
literally holding up theConstitution right before my
eyes.
She has it in her hand.
It is it is weathered.
You have read that before.
I can tell.
Congresswoman Goodlander (07:30):
I do.
Oh my goodness.
So it's in ways, big and smallin this job, it is a really
important point of reference.
And I was looking at it todaybecause we were having a
conversation about war powers.
And, you know, the Constitutionmakes clear that the president
is the commander-in-chief, butit really entrusts a lot of
responsibility for questions ofwar and peace in the United
(07:52):
States Congress.
And these are live questionsand issues that we're grappling
with every day.
We are really in a postureright now in Congress where we
are fighting to preserve andprotect the basic
responsibilities that we've beenentrusted with.
So just take the power of thepurse, the power to spend to
appropriate.
You know, from January 20th,and I started this job January
(08:15):
3rd, from since January 20th, wehave been dealing with really
big questions around the basicusurpation.
Like we're seeing the executivebranch, we're seeing it in
school districts all across thestate of New Hampshire where
money that has been promised toNew Hampshire, appropriated for
New Hampshire public schools, isbeing clawed back randomly for
(08:36):
no good reasons.
We're seeing when it comes totaxation, you know, the
president has imposed historictariffs that are not, in my
view, and the Supreme Court willdecide this very soon, we
think.
The basic question of whetherthe president can just take over
the power to tax and raiserevenue as he sees fit.
This is something that isliterally just so clearly in
(08:59):
this document entrusted toCongress.
And we're we're living throughan extraordinary moment where
our core powers andresponsibilities are being
contested in ways big and smallevery day.
Liz Canada (09:11):
I wasn't a great high school student when it came
to social studies and civics.
Congresswoman Goodlander (09:16):
But I think I I don't believe that.
I don't believe that.
Liz Canada (09:19):
I'll call up every history teacher I had,
Congresswoman.
I promise you, they willconfirm my uh my testimony here.
But I'm pretty sure I rememberthat we didn't want a king in
the United States.
That's true.
I think I remember that basicpremise.
So what is it like to have to,I don't know, deal with the
things that you're dealing withas all of these responsibilities
(09:40):
of Congress?
It feels like they're kind ofbeing chipped away a little bit,
that they're, you know, theyit's a little bit of stress to
the system.
How do you deal with that?
Congresswoman Goodlander (09:48):
You know, we we are seeing
challenges to to core bedrockprinciples um like we've never
seen before.
And I'm I'm representing NewHampshire in the most closely
divided Congress that we've seenin a generation.
And so, you know, so much ofwhat we are able to get done
here really depends onconvincing five or more
(10:10):
Republicans to agree with whatwe're trying to get done.
So you take the release of theEpstein files.
So this got a lot of attention.
You know, to me, as someoneI've served for years at the
Justice Department, I believedeeply that sunlight is the most
powerful disinfectant.
It's an essential part ofpreserving and protecting and in
many cases establishing publictrust.
(10:32):
We were able to advance thislaw through a mechanism called a
discharge petition.
So you need to get 218signatures to have a discharge
petition be passed in in theHouse.
And some of the best work thatwe've been able to do, um,
whether it's the bill that wepassed last week to push back on
the most vicious assault onfederal workers that we've seen
(10:55):
in American history, um, whichwas launched by the president in
an executive order.
We were able to write the shipto address that through a
discharge petition.
The same was true for therelease of the Epstein Files.
Right now, we have twodischarge petitions that would
do a whole lot to stem what willI fear be a death spiral for
(11:15):
tens of thousands of familiesacross our state, for critical
access hospitals, for communityhealth centers, um, who have
already been hit this year withthe biggest cuts to healthcare
in American history.
Liz Canada (11:26):
Yeah.
Congresswoman Goodlander (11:26):
And who, with one voice, are
speaking to say that we've gotto extend the healthcare.gov,
the Affordable Care Act taxcredits that are a lifeline for
so many hardworking people,small businesses, and healthcare
providers in our state.
So that's that's all happeningthrough so what what do we do?
What I do is I I try to bringthe basic New Hampshire way to
(11:49):
my work here every day.
And that means doing the hardwork of sitting, you know, eye
to eye, palm to palm, knee toknee, and making the case for
what I think we we we need to bedoing.
And sometimes it's a lot ofdefense, but it's a little bit
of offense too.
Liz Canada (12:03):
Yeah, I one of my questions was what does Congress
have to do with New Hampshire,right?
Like you go, you represent NewHampshire, the second district,
you go there.
How does what you do thereimpact what happens in our state
here?
Congresswoman Goodlander (12:19):
It drives literally everything that
I do.
So it drives my priorities, mylegislative priorities, what I'm
really fighting to get acrossthe finish line.
I've been able to do a lot morelegislating, honestly, than I
expected to, um, in part becauseI've I worked hard to get on
two committees that are the mostbipartisan committees, probably
the only bipartisan committeesthat are left in in the House.
(12:42):
Wow.
But it drives, it drivesliterally everything that I do.
It drives the questions I askat hearings, and today we had
the Small BusinessAdministration come to talk
about their uh disaster reliefprograms.
And as I'm sure you know, NewHampshire, we're we're right now
in the thick of a historic andstill extremely severe drought
(13:05):
in many corners of our state,um, including across the north
country of our state, which Ibelieve COWAS County is the
comeback can-do county ofAmerica.
And for too long, federalprograms, federal funding that
really is funding meant forcommunities impacted by natural
disasters like the one we'reliving through right now, this
(13:27):
drought, have struggled toaccess what is theirs.
And um, today we had a witnessfrom the small business
administration and asked him aseries of really basic questions
about how an ordinary how afamily farmer is going to be
able to actually navigate thesmall business administration's
disaster alone programs withoutan army of lawyers.
And so as I'm trying to issuespot, find the opportunities,
(13:51):
I'm truly guided in everything Ido by the conversations I have,
by the letters I receive.
We get so much incredibleinput.
We we're really lucky to livein a state where people are
engaged in a real way.
And I have a lot, I have a lotof inputs to work from in a way
that a lot of my colleaguesdon't.
They don't, they don't read thebills as I do.
I read every bill that I voteon because I know that I'm gonna
(14:12):
be asked.
You know, why did you vote thisway or that way?
And I always want to be able toexplain.
And it's honestly, that's beenone of the most surprising
things about this job to seethat um so few people actually
read the bills that we write andvote on.
Liz Canada (14:26):
I'm slightly horrified to find out that
people vote on things that theyhaven't read.
That's like showing up to myEnglish class and not reading
the book in advance and beinglike, no, no, I'll be fine.
No, no, you won't.
So maybe this gets into my nextquestion, which is like when I
hear about Congress on the newsor the social medias, things
(14:47):
feel divisive and tense andstressful.
Is that your experience beingthere?
Does it feel that way there, orare we getting a different
vibe?
Congresswoman Goodlander (14:58):
Well, it is a divided time, really.
I think, you know, you see itat every level of government.
It's never been a harder timeto be in a position of public
trust, to be a public servant,whether you are, you know, an
election of whether you're amoderator for, you know, an
election at the at the local,state, or federal level, whether
you're serving, you know,really at any level of
(15:20):
government, we've seen, and partof this has to do with the
threats of violence and violencethat we see um happening at a
rate like never before againstpeople who who who serve our
communities, who serve ourcountry, who serve our state.
And so I think there's a lot offear and there is a lot of
division, and that's really whatgets the headlines.
(15:42):
But I I'll tell you, you know,I came to this work.
I worked for John McCain earlyin my career.
And, you know, he hired me,even though I voted for
President Obama twice, and heknew that.
And he actually really invited,he really liked to the way that
he learned and the way that hethought through the issues was
through debate and through beingchallenged and being pushed
(16:04):
back at.
He he used to call himself NewHampshire Senator from Arizona.
He loved New Hampshire becausehe loved to get into it with New
Hampshire voters.
And he used to talk about TedKennedy, who was one of his
favorite sparring partners,someone who he worked with
closely on a lot of majorthings, including immigration
reform.
I mean, they worked together onreally everything, but they
(16:25):
they were intellectual sparringpartners.
Uh, but he used to quote TedKennedy, who used to say, you
know, you gotta find the 30%with any person in Congress, you
can find the 30% where youreally do agree.
And these days it's it's it's30% is a huge luxury.
Um if I could find 30% withevery one of my colleagues, that
(16:46):
would be just amazing.
But you might know this, myinitials are MTG, and I'm not
the only MTG in the UnitedStates House of Representatives.
There's another MTG from thestate of Georgia.
Listener, I'll let you figureout who it is.
Liz Canada (16:58):
You'll have to write it out for yourself.
Congresswoman Goodlander (17:01):
The other MTG.
Well, listen, I mean, I'vealready found a number of bills
that I didn't expect to be ableto work on with their issues of
real consequence.
And so to me, you know, I'm notnaive about the the deeply
rooted disagreements, but Ithink my style is to try to find
the areas where we do genuinelydisagree and see things
(17:21):
differently, but to find w andto create wherever possible the
common ground that we're gonnaneed.
And I haven't given up hope onthat.
I don't think it gets as muchattention uh because it just
isn't we don't have enough, wedon't have enough podcasts like
this one.
We don't have enoughjournalists who are willing to
report on, you know, sometimesthe technical, not glamorous
(17:43):
areas that are the real workthat actually works.
Liz Canada (17:46):
I wanted to talk to you about John McCain, actually,
if that's okay.
Yeah.
Molly and I, we've two boys,14, 12 years old.
And so they don't know a timein politics that isn't like
this.
So we use the example of JohnMcCain from 2008.
He had a town hall type event,and you know, we tell the boys
(18:08):
like there was a moment wheresomeone who's like a supporter
of John McCain says somethingabout Barack Obama.
And John McCain took themicrophone and said, no, ma'am,
that's not accurate.
He's a decent man.
And like he literally stopped,and I think he did that with a
few people at that event.
And I bring this up because Ican't imagine that happening
now, where someone would, youknow, running for president.
(18:32):
And I'll just say, like, itfeels like it's in the
Republican Party right now thatthat's not happening, that
people aren't seeing thehumanity in the other side.
And I wonder from you, how doyou see us moving forward?
Like, how do you see whetherit's your colleagues or our
country?
Like, how do we go back to atime, and not that everything
(18:56):
was perfect before, not evenclose, but a time of that sort
of like civility and that seeingeach other's humanity.
How do we get back there,Congresswoman?
Or can we get back there?
Congresswoman Goodlander (19:06):
Well, look, I I think a lot about the
reforms that I want to seehappen starting here in Article
I in Congress.
Look, if I could wave a wand, Iwould get rid of partisan
gerrymandering and the kind ofredistricting that has made us a
body filled of people whooverwhelmingly think about one
(19:28):
election and one election only,and that is a primary election.
They don't think about, theydon't have competitive districts
where they uh they are notlucky like I am to come from a
state where not only do you haveto talk to everyone, you really
have to show up everywhere andbe accountable.
And we just we we've got to getback there so that we've got
people who are representing us.
(19:49):
It feels to so many Americanslike, I'm sure, like taxation
without representation, becausethey don't have representatives
who are doing the hard work, areshowing up and are.
Actually duking it out on thebasis of ideas and who who who
come to this work in good faith,actually wanting to do a job.
Um, you know, many of them arepicked by, you know, party
(20:12):
apparatus who uh don't reallythink a whole lot about
governing.
So, you know, I think there aresome basic reforms that could
help us clean house.
I think that will really make amassive difference.
I think we should have termlimits in Congress.
I think term limits are goodgovernment.
It was hard, hard-earned wisdomfor us to impose term limits on
(20:34):
the presidency, and it was allfor the best.
I think we should have termlimits on the Supreme Court too.
Uh let's just put into placesome basic principles of good
government to make this placework better, to attract the the
right kind of people, people ofgood faith who actually want to
do the job and who don't want topark it here for years and
years upon end.
(20:54):
I think we've got to get rid ofthe real sources of distrust.
So we've got a simple billright now that would ban
congressional stock trading.
Like this is just such a kindof blows the mind that this was
all, that this has all beenlegal.
You know, I I came from theexecutive branch from the
Justice Department where, youknow, this is just not something
(21:15):
that as a matter of practicewas done.
Now we're living in a in atotally new, we're under the
most corrupt administration inAmerican history, uh, where this
all seems very quaint now.
But we should, we've got toget, you know, the basic sources
of conflict uh with the publicgood, with the common good, and
with public trust out of ourpolitics.
(21:36):
And, you know, that that thatmay sound big and bold, but it's
pretty simple andstraightforward.
And I think this is another onewhere some of my colleagues who
I, Republican colleagues whohave literally never agreed with
on anything else, are persuadedthat this is the right thing to
do.
So it's gonna be brick bybrick, it's gonna be inch by
inch.
But the other thing I thinkwe've got to do is is talk to
(21:59):
each other more.
I mean, I've been showing upand prioritizing going to
places, to towns where mostDemocratic members of Congress,
most people don't visit, youknow, places where, you know, as
a party, the Democratic Partymay have given up on it.
I like to me, it's myresponsibility to represent
everyone and to really show upand to learn and to listen.
And so that's what I've triedto do.
(22:20):
And I think we need more ofthat just as citizens, showing
up and talking to one another.
You know, I was in Pelham theother day, and that's not a town
that a lot of a lot of mypredecessors ever really
visited.
Uh, I actually don't know whatthe vote count was.
Liz Canada (22:33):
You don't you don't have every count memorized of
your votes, but I can't believethat.
Congresswoman Goodlander (22:38):
I gotta.
Liz Canada (22:39):
I work for all of them.
I work for all of them.
That's right.
Congresswoman Goodlander (22:42):
That's right.
It's a place where I havelearned so much.
Liz Canada (22:44):
I think you're out there talking to people all the
time.
I feel like I always hear thatyou are all around your
district, you are talking toGranite Staters, and it sounds
like you're trying to meet folkswhether they voted for you or
not.
And so where does that comefrom?
Like it would be easy for me tojust hang out with the people
who I know like me, but like,how do you do it?
Where does that come from ofwanting to talk to folks who
(23:05):
might not have voted for you?
Congresswoman Goodlander (23:07):
The most basic reason for this is
it's my job.
I represent everybody in thesecond district.
I've all I grew up in a familywhere we disagreed passionately
and consistently at the dinnertable, and it's still the same
way.
We always have an animatedholiday.
I've I've in every job I'vehad, you know, whether it was
(23:29):
when I was clerking on theSupreme Court and I was trying
to think through a really hardlegal question, the way that I I
think it through is to pressuretest it.
You know, it's it's something Ilearned from Senator McCain as
um as as his staffer.
I I think it's reallyimportant, you know, for the
credibility of our ideas and andhonestly for the integrity of
(23:50):
of my job, which is to representeverybody, um, whether they
voted for me or not.
And that's that's how I'vetried to to govern.
I think it it's helped mereally pressure test ideas that
have been improved upon, to, tosee problems from a totally new
angle, to basically be disabusedof of orthodoxies that I did
(24:13):
wasn't even aware of.
So I think it's it's part ofwhat makes our country
beautiful.
I think I think a lot about thethe people who who helped write
this document.
And this, by the way, includesthe declaration and the
constitution.
So it's a two-for-one.
There you go.
She has it all right there inher hand.
And I handed it out to all mycolleagues on Constitution Day.
(24:34):
So it's everyone's got a copyhere.
Liz Canada (24:36):
And hopefully they all read it, as well as the
bills that they're voting on.
Congresswoman Goodlander (24:40):
We're still working on that, but it's
it's um this is this is who weare as Americans.
And I think we're really luckyto come from a state where this
is still part of so part of ourculture and how we do business.
Liz Canada (24:53):
Aaron Powell Okay, you mentioned the holidays.
You and I have a few things incommon.
And one of them, I think, isthat you have family members who
may be of a pol differentpolitical persuasion than you
are or may feel differently orsee things differently.
And so I want to know what doholidays look like?
And do you have holidays withthose family members?
(25:14):
Like, what's your advice tofolks like me and others who
have the family members who wedon't agree with, and we may end
up seeing each other very soonaround a dinner table?
Congresswoman Goodlander (25:26):
Well, I think deep breaths are really
important.
Um oxygen.
It's good advice for everybody,yes.
And not to be underestimated.
You know, I come to theseconversations with the people
who've mattered most to me in mylife, some of the people have
mattered most to me in my life.
Um, my beloved sister, who wehave been sparring partners in
(25:47):
every way.
Uh, you know, I'm the middlechild, so I, you know, she used
to call me scrappy.
She still does when she feelslike she needs to remind me uh
of my of the birth order.
Liz Canada (25:58):
Yep.
Congresswoman Goodlander (25:58):
You know, it it's it is humbling to
me and it's important to me tobe able to have it's it's but
it's I don't want to undersellhow difficult it is.
And all of your, you know,anyone who's in this situation
knows it's it is verychallenging.
It's challenging for for me uhpersonally right now, as someone
who just in the course of doingmy job, I've been on the
(26:18):
receiving end of violent threatsfrom the president that have
have really had an impact on onme, on our team, on our
community in New Hampshire.
You know, we we had a shortlyafter the president issued a
series of tweets, or I don'teven know if they're true so
truths.
I guess they're called truths.
(26:39):
I don't really call them.
Liz Canada (26:41):
He said it somewhere, yep.
Congresswoman Goodlander (26:43):
Social media posts.
Um the impact on us wasimmediate.
We had a bomb threat to ouroffice in Concord.
You know, I've been on thereceiving end of death threats.
He's the most powerful personin the world, and his words mean
something and and have have areal impact on the world and the
lives of everybody.
And, you know, one could fairlyask the question, you know, how
(27:05):
could how could someone I loveso much see the world so
differently and see this um thisquestion of who should be the
president of the United Statesso differently than I do?
I'll tell you, I we had the theinitial conversation after the
election last year at theThanksgiving dinner table, and
uh Christmas is gonna be equallyanimated, and I'm still I'm
(27:27):
still searching for the answerto that question, but I think
it's an important one tounderstand.
I am grateful that I have thischallenge because it helps me
and my job to really understand,you know, we we we we are we
live in a purple state.
We live in a state, it was theit was the closest state that
President Trump lost in theelection.
Liz Canada (27:45):
And we have to talk to folks.
Yeah, we have to talk to folkswho may not agree with us,
whether they're related to us ornot.
Uh that's one way forward, atleast.
All right, we have one otherthing in common, and I know that
we're close to our time.
You used to teach, you taughtconstitutional law, which makes
sense as you literally have itin your hand.
(28:06):
I was a teacher, not ofconstitutional law, of English
literature.
Congresswoman Goodlander (28:10):
What did you love about teaching?
For me, teaching theconstitution was such it's a
it's a learning experience forme.
I mean, I fell in love withconstitutional law, you know, in
in my early 20s.
I really I got caught in thegrip of it.
And it's just the it's atreally for any age, and I've I
(28:32):
love to teach constitutional lawand to talk about the
constitution with people who arenot lawyers, because this was a
document that was written inpart by lawyers, but mostly
actually by citizens, by peoplewho had a rough and tumble
experience of the revolution,who really disagreed on pretty
(28:52):
fundamental questions, but whowere able to come together and
to write this document.
It was written to be read byeverybody.
And it's why it was publishedin newspapers around the country
and why we had a process ofratification that was really
about involving the people.
You can't have a government ofbuy-in for the people if you
don't have buy-in from thepeople themselves.
(29:13):
And so what we have is such asp it's a it's the most
extraordinary inheritance thatany person could have.
It's not perfect.
In fact, it's intentionallymeant to make us more perfect
every day.
And it's like the firstsentence of the Constitution is
that what we are about is a isis about it's a we.
We start with the we, and thatcomes back to, you know, why
(29:33):
it's our responsibility to sitwith and to really engage with
people, especially ones who wedon't agree with.
But it's about a journeytowards something that is more
perfect, a recognition that weare flawed, but that we contain
the basic ingredients and thebasic ideas.
And I love, I learned somethingnew about the constitution
every time I teach it, everytime I talk about it.
That's what I loved about it.
(29:54):
But I wish I had been yourstudent because I feel like I
don't know.
I haven't I haven't read anovel in a really long time.
Liz Canada (30:01):
All right.
Well, trade.
I'll read the Constitution thisholiday season.
You choose any novel of yourchoice, and you read that.
How about that's our homeworkfor each other?
Congresswoman Goodlander (30:11):
I'm gonna need your syllabus.
I'm gonna need your syllabus.
Liz Canada (30:13):
I'll send it to you.
No problem.
I've got plenty of great booksthat you will be delighted by.
Congresswoman, thank you somuch for taking the time,
talking with me, listening tothe podcast.
Oh my goodness.
And please take care ofyourself and your staff and stay
strong in these wild times.
We really appreciate all thatyou're doing.
Congresswoman Goodlander (30:35):
Well, one thing about me is I will
never get up the ship, and Ifeel like the luckiest person in
the world to be doing this job.
And I'm really glad that I gotto spend some time with you.
And I hope the next time itwill be in the flesh.
Liz Canada (30:48):
I hope so too.
We will make that happen.
We will swap notes of what weread.
Congresswoman Goodlander (30:59):
In this job, I've probably spent
more time sitting with selectboards around New Hampshire than
most members of Congress dobecause we all read Thornton
Wilder's Our Town at Way TooYoung an age.
Oh my god.
So but if you revisit it, it isit is very clear and I think
convincing about the role of theselect board in the public
(31:20):
life, in the life of everycommunity that has a select
board in our state.
I heard a rumor actually that you have listened
to the podcast before and thatyou listened to an episode
that had Niko Papakonstantison it about select boards and
property taxes and deliberativesessions.
And I'm my first question foryou is Isn't Niko incredible?
Isn't he a wonderful humanbeing?
Congresswoman Goodlander (00:20):
He really is.
I mean, I'm not a person wholistens to many podcasts at all,
but I get to drive a lot thesedays.
My husband said to me, youshould just look for a podcast
that interests you.
So I I immediately found yours.
It's the first podcast I reallylistened to.
Liz Canada (00:36):
Okay.
Well, I actually have the onlypodcast.
There are no other podcasts outthere.
You're listening to NewHampshire Has Issues, and I am
your host, Liz Canada.
(00:57):
And even though I say this awhole bunch in the episode, I am
so honored that CongresswomanMaggie Goodlander came onto my
podcast and that she is alistener of the podcast.
I suddenly feel an overwhelmingamount of pressure.
Not that I already didn't thinkabout that with you as a
(01:17):
listener, even if you are not acongressperson, but if you know
a congressperson who shouldlisten to the show, send them a
link.
We covered a lot of ground inthis episode.
We talked about the USConstitution, we talked about
war powers, we talked aboutgerrymandering, we talked about
term limits, we talked aboutwhat a discharge petition is, we
talked about John McCain.
(01:37):
We talked about uh postoffices.
We talked about the Epsteinfiles.
This is the weirdest sentence Ihave ever said aloud, which
feels uh especially fitting in2025.
I am wishing 2025 goodbyeforever, though I have loved
making this podcast, and it willcontinue in 2026.
(01:59):
I have a lot of guests alreadyuh recorded and I'm going to
spend my holiday break gettingthose ready.
Uh and I have a lot more queuedup with interviews in January
and February.
But if you have an idea for anepisode, send me an email.
Newhampshire hasissues atgmail.com.
And if you would like to be amonthly supporter, of which I
would be incredibly grateful,you can visit patreon.com slash
(02:22):
nh has issues.
Thank you to Seaco Soils whosponsors this podcast.
But most of all, thank you forlistening.
Whether you're a congresspersonor someone I know and have
coffee with regularly, or we'venever met, and I'm just a voice
in your headphones or your caror your kitchen, and you don't
(02:42):
even know what I look like.
Thank you for listening.
All right, I'm gonna pass itback over to me.
I'm so honored that you'velistened to this podcast.
Thank you so much.
Congresswoman Goodlander (02:53):
And in fact, today I was sitting with
a select board member fromanother town, and I said, you've
got to listen to the podcastwith Niko, and you've got to get
on this podcast because youknow this because in your town
you see it, that the the voterturnout for our town meetings,
for really anything at the locallevel, it's just we need people
(03:14):
to show up and to really beengaged at every level that it
all fits together in suchcritical ways that we've got to
hang on to it.
Liz Canada (03:21):
Absolutely.
And serving on the selectboard, you know, my wife is on
the select board here in Exeter,and it's a big commitment to
do, but it's so incrediblyimportant because our t our
state is really run byvolunteers in a lot of way,
people who step up to serve andwant to make their communities a
little bit better and a littlebit stronger.
(03:42):
So thank you for listening tothat episode and uh any other
episodes that you have.
I should do your intro though.
I'm gonna take a deep breathbecause this is quite the bio
that I have in front of me.
My guest today has been a navalofficer, a foreign policy
advisor to John McCain, a lawclerk on the United States
Supreme Court.
She has served as counsel onthe House Judiciary Committee
(04:05):
during the first impeachment ofDonald Trump.
She was an attorney at theDepartment of Justice during the
Biden administration.
She was a senior White Houseadvisor.
She taught constitutional law,and now she's a member of the
U.S.
House of Representatives forNew Hampshire's second district.
Welcome to the show.
The abundantly qualified forpretty much everything, Maggie
(04:25):
Goodlander.
Congresswoman, holy smokes, I'mso honored that you're here.
Thank you for being on theshow.
I'm so thrilled to be here.
I cannot put into words howexcited I am that you're here.
Let's start with a simplequestion.
You know, I've done episodesabout the New Hampshire House
and Senate, the governor, theexecutive council, whatever that
is.
But my simple question for you,Congresswoman, is what the heck
(04:48):
is Congress?
What do you all do in Congress?
Help me and help the listenerunderstand.
I was terrible in in highschool and civics, so give me
the breakdown.
What is Congress?
Congresswoman Goodlander (04:58):
Well, Congress, the word itself means
it's got Latin roots, it means acoming together.
The Congress, in many ways, Ireally believe that New
Hampshire is the state thatcreated the United States of
America.
We were the ninth to ratify ourConstitution.
But it really was the Congressthat the roots of this Congress
(05:18):
that I serve in now that were atthe forefront of declaring
independence, that really helpedto forge the country that we
are now working every day tocontinue.
This really fragile experiment.
But the Congress, what I'd sayto your listeners, I'm gonna
make a pitch for reading theConstitution because it takes 30
(05:40):
minutes, but even if you juststarted with Article One, it's a
great read.
And it really gives you theessential foundations of what
Congress does.
You know, we've got two housesof Congress, just as we do in
the New Hampshire legislature,the House and the Senate.
And the House is the firstinstitution that the United
States Constitution creates.
(06:00):
So the idea was the world hadnever known anything like this.
Liz Canada (06:04):
Yeah.
Congresswoman Goodlander (06:05):
The idea of a directly elected
representative from the people,of the people, by the people,
for the people was not somethingthat had ever happened before
in human history.
So we are we are the body thatis closest at the federal level
to the American people.
So it's every two years we haveto seek seek reelection.
No one serves in the House ofRepresentatives who has not been
(06:27):
elected.
There are no appointments tothe House.
And I think that that matters.
You know, we live in agerrymandered moment, but our
roles and responsibilities arein the House.
We have the power of the purse.
We make the decisions aboutfederal spending.
We make decisions abouttaxation.
We make decisions aboutdeclarations of war, and we're
(06:48):
entrusted with theresponsibility of managing our
armed forces for the UnitedStates.
These are all, I should say,these are three really core
responsibilities that we have inCongress.
We're responsible for creatingpost offices and postal roads.
Um we have a lot of responsiblefor weights and measures.
You guys are in charge of post,like making post offices?
(07:09):
Yes, actually, it's right herein Article One.
Um it's it it it's it's toestablish post offices and post
roads.
It's right here in Article One.
Liz Canada (07:19):
Listener, um, if this is an audio podcast, she is
literally holding up theConstitution right before my
eyes.
She has it in her hand.
It is it is weathered.
You have read that before.
I can tell.
Congresswoman Goodlander (07:30):
I do.
Oh my goodness.
So it's in ways, big and smallin this job, it is a really
important point of reference.
And I was looking at it todaybecause we were having a
conversation about war powers.
And, you know, the Constitutionmakes clear that the president
is the commander-in-chief, butit really entrusts a lot of
responsibility for questions ofwar and peace in the United
(07:52):
States Congress.
And these are live questionsand issues that we're grappling
with every day.
We are really in a postureright now in Congress where we
are fighting to preserve andprotect the basic
responsibilities that we've beenentrusted with.
So just take the power of thepurse, the power to spend to
appropriate.
You know, from January 20th,and I started this job January
(08:15):
3rd, from since January 20th, wehave been dealing with really
big questions around the basicusurpation.
Like we're seeing the executivebranch, we're seeing it in
school districts all across thestate of New Hampshire where
money that has been promised toNew Hampshire, appropriated for
New Hampshire public schools, isbeing clawed back randomly for
(08:36):
no good reasons.
We're seeing when it comes totaxation, you know, the
president has imposed historictariffs that are not, in my
view, and the Supreme Court willdecide this very soon, we
think.
The basic question of whetherthe president can just take over
the power to tax and raiserevenue as he sees fit.
This is something that isliterally just so clearly in
(08:59):
this document entrusted toCongress.
And we're we're living throughan extraordinary moment where
our core powers andresponsibilities are being
contested in ways big and smallevery day.
Liz Canada (09:11):
I wasn't a great high school student when it came
to social studies and civics.
Congresswoman Goodlander (09:16):
But I think I I don't believe that.
I don't believe that.
Liz Canada (09:19):
I'll call up every history teacher I had,
Congresswoman.
I promise you, they willconfirm my uh my testimony here.
But I'm pretty sure I rememberthat we didn't want a king in
the United States.
That's true.
I think I remember that basicpremise.
So what is it like to have to,I don't know, deal with the
things that you're dealing withas all of these responsibilities
(09:40):
of Congress?
It feels like they're kind ofbeing chipped away a little bit,
that they're, you know, theyit's a little bit of stress to
the system.
How do you deal with that?
Congresswoman Goodlander (09:48):
You know, we we are seeing
challenges to to core bedrockprinciples um like we've never
seen before.
And I'm I'm representing NewHampshire in the most closely
divided Congress that we've seenin a generation.
And so, you know, so much ofwhat we are able to get done
here really depends onconvincing five or more
(10:10):
Republicans to agree with whatwe're trying to get done.
So you take the release of theEpstein files.
So this got a lot of attention.
You know, to me, as someoneI've served for years at the
Justice Department, I believedeeply that sunlight is the most
powerful disinfectant.
It's an essential part ofpreserving and protecting and in
many cases establishing publictrust.
(10:32):
We were able to advance thislaw through a mechanism called a
discharge petition.
So you need to get 218signatures to have a discharge
petition be passed in in theHouse.
And some of the best work thatwe've been able to do, um,
whether it's the bill that wepassed last week to push back on
the most vicious assault onfederal workers that we've seen
(10:55):
in American history, um, whichwas launched by the president in
an executive order.
We were able to write the shipto address that through a
discharge petition.
The same was true for therelease of the Epstein Files.
Right now, we have twodischarge petitions that would
do a whole lot to stem what willI fear be a death spiral for
(11:15):
tens of thousands of familiesacross our state, for critical
access hospitals, for communityhealth centers, um, who have
already been hit this year withthe biggest cuts to healthcare
in American history.
Liz Canada (11:26):
Yeah.
Congresswoman Goodlander (11:26):
And who, with one voice, are
speaking to say that we've gotto extend the healthcare.gov,
the Affordable Care Act taxcredits that are a lifeline for
so many hardworking people,small businesses, and healthcare
providers in our state.
So that's that's all happeningthrough so what what do we do?
What I do is I I try to bringthe basic New Hampshire way to
(11:49):
my work here every day.
And that means doing the hardwork of sitting, you know, eye
to eye, palm to palm, knee toknee, and making the case for
what I think we we we need to bedoing.
And sometimes it's a lot ofdefense, but it's a little bit
of offense too.
Liz Canada (12:03):
Yeah, I one of my questions was what does Congress
have to do with New Hampshire,right?
Like you go, you represent NewHampshire, the second district,
you go there.
How does what you do thereimpact what happens in our state
here?
Congresswoman Goodlander (12:19):
It drives literally everything that
I do.
So it drives my priorities, mylegislative priorities, what I'm
really fighting to get acrossthe finish line.
I've been able to do a lot morelegislating, honestly, than I
expected to, um, in part becauseI've I worked hard to get on
two committees that are the mostbipartisan committees, probably
the only bipartisan committeesthat are left in in the House.
(12:42):
Wow.
But it drives, it drivesliterally everything that I do.
It drives the questions I askat hearings, and today we had
the Small BusinessAdministration come to talk
about their uh disaster reliefprograms.
And as I'm sure you know, NewHampshire, we're we're right now
in the thick of a historic andstill extremely severe drought
(13:05):
in many corners of our state,um, including across the north
country of our state, which Ibelieve COWAS County is the
comeback can-do county ofAmerica.
And for too long, federalprograms, federal funding that
really is funding meant forcommunities impacted by natural
disasters like the one we'reliving through right now, this
(13:27):
drought, have struggled toaccess what is theirs.
And um, today we had a witnessfrom the small business
administration and asked him aseries of really basic questions
about how an ordinary how afamily farmer is going to be
able to actually navigate thesmall business administration's
disaster alone programs withoutan army of lawyers.
And so as I'm trying to issuespot, find the opportunities,
(13:51):
I'm truly guided in everything Ido by the conversations I have,
by the letters I receive.
We get so much incredibleinput.
We we're really lucky to livein a state where people are
engaged in a real way.
And I have a lot, I have a lotof inputs to work from in a way
that a lot of my colleaguesdon't.
They don't, they don't read thebills as I do.
I read every bill that I voteon because I know that I'm gonna
(14:12):
be asked.
You know, why did you vote thisway or that way?
And I always want to be able toexplain.
And it's honestly, that's beenone of the most surprising
things about this job to seethat um so few people actually
read the bills that we write andvote on.
Liz Canada (14:26):
I'm slightly horrified to find out that
people vote on things that theyhaven't read.
That's like showing up to myEnglish class and not reading
the book in advance and beinglike, no, no, I'll be fine.
No, no, you won't.
So maybe this gets into my nextquestion, which is like when I
hear about Congress on the newsor the social medias, things
(14:47):
feel divisive and tense andstressful.
Is that your experience beingthere?
Does it feel that way there, orare we getting a different
vibe?
Congresswoman Goodlander (14:58):
Well, it is a divided time, really.
I think, you know, you see itat every level of government.
It's never been a harder timeto be in a position of public
trust, to be a public servant,whether you are, you know, an
election of whether you're amoderator for, you know, an
election at the at the local,state, or federal level, whether
you're serving, you know,really at any level of
(15:20):
government, we've seen, and partof this has to do with the
threats of violence and violencethat we see um happening at a
rate like never before againstpeople who who who serve our
communities, who serve ourcountry, who serve our state.
And so I think there's a lot offear and there is a lot of
division, and that's really whatgets the headlines.
(15:42):
But I I'll tell you, you know,I came to this work.
I worked for John McCain earlyin my career.
And, you know, he hired me,even though I voted for
President Obama twice, and heknew that.
And he actually really invited,he really liked to the way that
he learned and the way that hethought through the issues was
through debate and through beingchallenged and being pushed
(16:04):
back at.
He he used to call himself NewHampshire Senator from Arizona.
He loved New Hampshire becausehe loved to get into it with New
Hampshire voters.
And he used to talk about TedKennedy, who was one of his
favorite sparring partners,someone who he worked with
closely on a lot of majorthings, including immigration
reform.
I mean, they worked together onreally everything, but they
(16:25):
they were intellectual sparringpartners.
Uh, but he used to quote TedKennedy, who used to say, you
know, you gotta find the 30%with any person in Congress, you
can find the 30% where youreally do agree.
And these days it's it's it's30% is a huge luxury.
Um if I could find 30% withevery one of my colleagues, that
(16:46):
would be just amazing.
But you might know this, myinitials are MTG, and I'm not
the only MTG in the UnitedStates House of Representatives.
There's another MTG from thestate of Georgia.
Listener, I'll let you figureout who it is.
Liz Canada (16:58):
You'll have to write it out for yourself.
Congresswoman Goodlander (17:01):
The other MTG.
Well, listen, I mean, I'vealready found a number of bills
that I didn't expect to be ableto work on with their issues of
real consequence.
And so to me, you know, I'm notnaive about the the deeply
rooted disagreements, but Ithink my style is to try to find
the areas where we do genuinelydisagree and see things
(17:21):
differently, but to find w andto create wherever possible the
common ground that we're gonnaneed.
And I haven't given up hope onthat.
I don't think it gets as muchattention uh because it just
isn't we don't have enough, wedon't have enough podcasts like
this one.
We don't have enoughjournalists who are willing to
report on, you know, sometimesthe technical, not glamorous
(17:43):
areas that are the real workthat actually works.
Liz Canada (17:46):
I wanted to talk to you about John McCain, actually,
if that's okay.
Yeah.
Molly and I, we've two boys,14, 12 years old.
And so they don't know a timein politics that isn't like
this.
So we use the example of JohnMcCain from 2008.
He had a town hall type event,and you know, we tell the boys
(18:08):
like there was a moment wheresomeone who's like a supporter
of John McCain says somethingabout Barack Obama.
And John McCain took themicrophone and said, no, ma'am,
that's not accurate.
He's a decent man.
And like he literally stopped,and I think he did that with a
few people at that event.
And I bring this up because Ican't imagine that happening
now, where someone would, youknow, running for president.
(18:32):
And I'll just say, like, itfeels like it's in the
Republican Party right now thatthat's not happening, that
people aren't seeing thehumanity in the other side.
And I wonder from you, how doyou see us moving forward?
Like, how do you see whetherit's your colleagues or our
country?
Like, how do we go back to atime, and not that everything
(18:56):
was perfect before, not evenclose, but a time of that sort
of like civility and that seeingeach other's humanity.
How do we get back there,Congresswoman?
Or can we get back there?
Congresswoman Goodlander (19:06):
Well, look, I I think a lot about the
reforms that I want to seehappen starting here in Article
I in Congress.
Look, if I could wave a wand, Iwould get rid of partisan
gerrymandering and the kind ofredistricting that has made us a
body filled of people whooverwhelmingly think about one
(19:28):
election and one election only,and that is a primary election.
They don't think about, theydon't have competitive districts
where they uh they are notlucky like I am to come from a
state where not only do you haveto talk to everyone, you really
have to show up everywhere andbe accountable.
And we just we we've got to getback there so that we've got
people who are representing us.
(19:49):
It feels to so many Americanslike, I'm sure, like taxation
without representation, becausethey don't have representatives
who are doing the hard work, areshowing up and are.
Actually duking it out on thebasis of ideas and who who who
come to this work in good faith,actually wanting to do a job.
Um, you know, many of them arepicked by, you know, party
(20:12):
apparatus who uh don't reallythink a whole lot about
governing.
So, you know, I think there aresome basic reforms that could
help us clean house.
I think that will really make amassive difference.
I think we should have termlimits in Congress.
I think term limits are goodgovernment.
It was hard, hard-earned wisdomfor us to impose term limits on
(20:34):
the presidency, and it was allfor the best.
I think we should have termlimits on the Supreme Court too.
Uh let's just put into placesome basic principles of good
government to make this placework better, to attract the the
right kind of people, people ofgood faith who actually want to
do the job and who don't want topark it here for years and
years upon end.
(20:54):
I think we've got to get rid ofthe real sources of distrust.
So we've got a simple billright now that would ban
congressional stock trading.
Like this is just such a kindof blows the mind that this was
all, that this has all beenlegal.
You know, I I came from theexecutive branch from the
Justice Department where, youknow, this is just not something
(21:15):
that as a matter of practicewas done.
Now we're living in a in atotally new, we're under the
most corrupt administration inAmerican history, uh, where this
all seems very quaint now.
But we should, we've got toget, you know, the basic sources
of conflict uh with the publicgood, with the common good, and
with public trust out of ourpolitics.
(21:36):
And, you know, that that thatmay sound big and bold, but it's
pretty simple andstraightforward.
And I think this is another onewhere some of my colleagues who
I, Republican colleagues whohave literally never agreed with
on anything else, are persuadedthat this is the right thing to
do.
So it's gonna be brick bybrick, it's gonna be inch by
inch.
But the other thing I thinkwe've got to do is is talk to
(21:59):
each other more.
I mean, I've been showing upand prioritizing going to
places, to towns where mostDemocratic members of Congress,
most people don't visit, youknow, places where, you know, as
a party, the Democratic Partymay have given up on it.
I like to me, it's myresponsibility to represent
everyone and to really show upand to learn and to listen.
And so that's what I've triedto do.
(22:20):
And I think we need more ofthat just as citizens, showing
up and talking to one another.
You know, I was in Pelham theother day, and that's not a town
that a lot of a lot of mypredecessors ever really
visited.
Uh, I actually don't know whatthe vote count was.
Liz Canada (22:33):
You don't you don't have every count memorized of
your votes, but I can't believethat.
Congresswoman Goodlander (22:38):
I gotta.
Liz Canada (22:39):
I work for all of them.
I work for all of them.
That's right.
Congresswoman Goodlander (22:42):
That's right.
It's a place where I havelearned so much.
Liz Canada (22:44):
I think you're out there talking to people all the
time.
I feel like I always hear thatyou are all around your
district, you are talking toGranite Staters, and it sounds
like you're trying to meet folkswhether they voted for you or
not.
And so where does that comefrom?
Like it would be easy for me tojust hang out with the people
who I know like me, but like,how do you do it?
Where does that come from ofwanting to talk to folks who
(23:05):
might not have voted for you?
Congresswoman Goodlander (23:07):
The most basic reason for this is
it's my job.
I represent everybody in thesecond district.
I've all I grew up in a familywhere we disagreed passionately
and consistently at the dinnertable, and it's still the same
way.
We always have an animatedholiday.
I've I've in every job I'vehad, you know, whether it was
(23:29):
when I was clerking on theSupreme Court and I was trying
to think through a really hardlegal question, the way that I I
think it through is to pressuretest it.
You know, it's it's something Ilearned from Senator McCain as
um as as his staffer.
I I think it's reallyimportant, you know, for the
credibility of our ideas and andhonestly for the integrity of
(23:50):
of my job, which is to representeverybody, um, whether they
voted for me or not.
And that's that's how I'vetried to to govern.
I think it it's helped mereally pressure test ideas that
have been improved upon, to, tosee problems from a totally new
angle, to basically be disabusedof of orthodoxies that I did
(24:13):
wasn't even aware of.
So I think it's it's part ofwhat makes our country
beautiful.
I think I think a lot about thethe people who who helped write
this document.
And this, by the way, includesthe declaration and the
constitution.
So it's a two-for-one.
There you go.
She has it all right there inher hand.
And I handed it out to all mycolleagues on Constitution Day.
(24:34):
So it's everyone's got a copyhere.
Liz Canada (24:36):
And hopefully they all read it, as well as the
bills that they're voting on.
Congresswoman Goodlander (24:40):
We're still working on that, but it's
it's um this is this is who weare as Americans.
And I think we're really luckyto come from a state where this
is still part of so part of ourculture and how we do business.
Liz Canada (24:53):
Aaron Powell Okay, you mentioned the holidays.
You and I have a few things incommon.
And one of them, I think, isthat you have family members who
may be of a pol differentpolitical persuasion than you
are or may feel differently orsee things differently.
And so I want to know what doholidays look like?
And do you have holidays withthose family members?
(25:14):
Like, what's your advice tofolks like me and others who
have the family members who wedon't agree with, and we may end
up seeing each other very soonaround a dinner table?
Congresswoman Goodlander (25:26):
Well, I think deep breaths are really
important.
Um oxygen.
It's good advice for everybody,yes.
And not to be underestimated.
You know, I come to theseconversations with the people
who've mattered most to me in mylife, some of the people have
mattered most to me in my life.
Um, my beloved sister, who wehave been sparring partners in
(25:47):
every way.
Uh, you know, I'm the middlechild, so I, you know, she used
to call me scrappy.
She still does when she feelslike she needs to remind me uh
of my of the birth order.
Liz Canada (25:58):
Yep.
Congresswoman Goodlander (25:58):
You know, it it's it is humbling to
me and it's important to me tobe able to have it's it's but
it's I don't want to undersellhow difficult it is.
And all of your, you know,anyone who's in this situation
knows it's it is verychallenging.
It's challenging for for me uhpersonally right now, as someone
who just in the course of doingmy job, I've been on the
(26:18):
receiving end of violent threatsfrom the president that have
have really had an impact on onme, on our team, on our
community in New Hampshire.
You know, we we had a shortlyafter the president issued a
series of tweets, or I don'teven know if they're true so
truths.
I guess they're called truths.
(26:39):
I don't really call them.
Liz Canada (26:41):
He said it somewhere, yep.
Congresswoman Goodlander (26:43):
Social media posts.
Um the impact on us wasimmediate.
We had a bomb threat to ouroffice in Concord.
You know, I've been on thereceiving end of death threats.
He's the most powerful personin the world, and his words mean
something and and have have areal impact on the world and the
lives of everybody.
And, you know, one could fairlyask the question, you know, how
(27:05):
could how could someone I loveso much see the world so
differently and see this um thisquestion of who should be the
president of the United Statesso differently than I do?
I'll tell you, I we had the theinitial conversation after the
election last year at theThanksgiving dinner table, and
uh Christmas is gonna be equallyanimated, and I'm still I'm
(27:27):
still searching for the answerto that question, but I think
it's an important one tounderstand.
I am grateful that I have thischallenge because it helps me
and my job to really understand,you know, we we we we are we
live in a purple state.
We live in a state, it was theit was the closest state that
President Trump lost in theelection.
Liz Canada (27:45):
And we have to talk to folks.
Yeah, we have to talk to folkswho may not agree with us,
whether they're related to us ornot.
Uh that's one way forward, atleast.
All right, we have one otherthing in common, and I know that
we're close to our time.
You used to teach, you taughtconstitutional law, which makes
sense as you literally have itin your hand.
(28:06):
I was a teacher, not ofconstitutional law, of English
literature.
Congresswoman Goodlander (28:10):
What did you love about teaching?
For me, teaching theconstitution was such it's a
it's a learning experience forme.
I mean, I fell in love withconstitutional law, you know, in
in my early 20s.
I really I got caught in thegrip of it.
And it's just the it's atreally for any age, and I've I
(28:32):
love to teach constitutional lawand to talk about the
constitution with people who arenot lawyers, because this was a
document that was written inpart by lawyers, but mostly
actually by citizens, by peoplewho had a rough and tumble
experience of the revolution,who really disagreed on pretty
(28:52):
fundamental questions, but whowere able to come together and
to write this document.
It was written to be read byeverybody.
And it's why it was publishedin newspapers around the country
and why we had a process ofratification that was really
about involving the people.
You can't have a government ofbuy-in for the people if you
don't have buy-in from thepeople themselves.
(29:13):
And so what we have is such asp it's a it's the most
extraordinary inheritance thatany person could have.
It's not perfect.
In fact, it's intentionallymeant to make us more perfect
every day.
And it's like the firstsentence of the Constitution is
that what we are about is a isis about it's a we.
We start with the we, and thatcomes back to, you know, why
(29:33):
it's our responsibility to sitwith and to really engage with
people, especially ones who wedon't agree with.
But it's about a journeytowards something that is more
perfect, a recognition that weare flawed, but that we contain
the basic ingredients and thebasic ideas.
And I love, I learned somethingnew about the constitution
every time I teach it, everytime I talk about it.
That's what I loved about it.
(29:54):
But I wish I had been yourstudent because I feel like I
don't know.
I haven't I haven't read anovel in a really long time.
Liz Canada (30:01):
All right.
Well, trade.
I'll read the Constitution thisholiday season.
You choose any novel of yourchoice, and you read that.
How about that's our homeworkfor each other?
Congresswoman Goodlander (30:11):
I'm gonna need your syllabus.
I'm gonna need your syllabus.
Liz Canada (30:13):
I'll send it to you.
No problem.
I've got plenty of great booksthat you will be delighted by.
Congresswoman, thank you somuch for taking the time,
talking with me, listening tothe podcast.
Oh my goodness.
And please take care ofyourself and your staff and stay
strong in these wild times.
We really appreciate all thatyou're doing.
Congresswoman Goodlander (30:35):
Well, one thing about me is I will
never get up the ship, and Ifeel like the luckiest person in
the world to be doing this job.
And I'm really glad that I gotto spend some time with you.
And I hope the next time itwill be in the flesh.
Liz Canada (30:48):
I hope so too.
We will make that happen.
We will swap notes of what weread.
Congresswoman Goodlander (30:59):
In this job, I've probably spent
more time sitting with selectboards around New Hampshire than
most members of Congress dobecause we all read Thornton
Wilder's Our Town at Way TooYoung an age.
Oh my god.
So but if you revisit it, it isit is very clear and I think
convincing about the role of theselect board in the public
(31:20):
life, in the life of everycommunity that has a select
board in our state.
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