December 2, 2025 • 46 mins
Spoiler alert: Liz and Pat talk about Wicked. And housing. And curb cuts! Oh my.
Pat shares with Liz the significance of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and the ongoing challenges faced by individuals with disabilities in accessing affordable and accessible housing in New Hampshire.
New episodes on Tuesdays.
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Have an idea for an upcoming episode? Email Liz: newhampshirehasissues@gmail.com
Links:
- Pat and Jim's website
- That's Inclusive! podcast on Spotify
- Housing Choice Voucher Program (New Hampshire Housing)
- Guide to Disability Rights Law (ADA.gov)
- In New Hampshire, people with disabilities face challenges hiring the help they need (NH Bulletin)
- New Hampshire disability community rallies against federal cuts to special education (NH Bulletin)
Some of Pat's writing:
- The Soapbox: GOP's war on disabled Americans - Manchester Ink Link
- The Soapbox: Medicaid - A lifeline for the Granite State - Manchester Ink Link
- The Soapbox: Voting in NH is too hard - Manchester Ink Link
Clarification from Pat on the Federal Fair Housing Act:
"The landlord may choose, where reasonable, to require the tenant to restore the unit to its original condition when the tenant moves. This doesn't apply to "Universal Design elements," where the general thought is that everyone could benefit from a change becoming a permanent part of the rental unit. For example, ramps are considered universal design, and probably would be required to stay a part of the apartment once added."
Podcast theme music by Transistor.fm. Learn how to start a podcast here.
New Hampshire Has Issues is generously sponsored by Seacoast Soils, an organic compost and topsoil provider for New Hampshire, Maine, and Northeast Massachusetts. Visit their website at www.seacoastsoil.com!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Do you have your tickets to Wicked for good yet?
No! No!
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
No, I do not.
I don't buy them ahead of time.
I know I should.
We have planned to go.
So I think I told you in one ofthe emails that Wicked actually
is an interesting issue in thedisability community.
SPEAKER_02 (00:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
Because in spoiler alerts, in case it makes it.
SPEAKER_02 (00:28):
Spoiler alert.
When's this gonna go live?
I hope people have seen themovie.
SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
In case it makes it in.
In the second act, if we've seenthe original Broadway show, her
sister.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Nesserose.
SPEAKER_00 (00:43):
Nesserose.
She put on the shoes.
Yeah.
And she gets up and walks.
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Which is a really big no-no.
Extremely ableist.
SPEAKER_02 (00:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
So the director of the movie has changed that
point.
Because actually the actorplaying this road in the movie,
unlike on the stage, had adisability.
She used the wheelchair that shedid.
So having her get up and walk isanother thing that's gonna
(01:20):
happen.
Yeah.
So they've they've reworked thatpart of the movie, which is very
much appreciated in thedigability community.
SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
By the time this episode goes live, probably
folks who are like you and me,who love the good and see it,
will probably have seen it.
But yes, in act two of themusical, Nessa Rose, who is in a
wheelchair, uses a wheelchair,she gets those ruby slippers
that we are so familiar withfrom Wizard of Oz, which puts
them on, and now she's able towalk.
(01:52):
And that being incrediblyableist.
And so we'll see what they do inthe movie.
It's pretty exciting that theyare taking that feedback and
learning how to best demonstratewhat it means for an actress and
for this character who uses awheelchair, what that would look
(02:15):
like for for her.
SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
Right.
Because having acted withoutdisabilities portray characters
with disabilities is reallyfrowned upon in the disability
community.
It's been really long in thedisability community.
When Queen is recognized, pleasedon't do that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:38):
Yeah, right.
And it has been so prevalent infilm and television of folks who
do not have the disability thatthey are portraying, and how
problematic that is to do that.
Exactly.
So yay! So we can do that.
Good job, John too.
Good job, director.
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
Good job, Fred.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
So we'll see, we'll see what happens and we'll see
if we how we how we feel aboutit, the change.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Dare I say, for good.
Oh you're listening to NewHampshire Has Issues, and I am
(03:22):
your host, Liz Canada.
I was so honored and excitedwhen Pat reached out to me about
a podcast that she works oncalled That's Inclusive, which
is the podcast from the NewHampshire Council on
Developmental Disabilities.
And she emailed me and, youknow, referenced that I like
musicals and she likes musicals,you know, a little this and
that.
(03:42):
I was like, Pat, why don't youcome on my podcast and talk
about disability rights?
And so here she is.
And we spend a lot of thisepisode talking about housing.
And I feel like housing, might Isay, is the talk of the town
right now.
And I really feel like we'rejust barely scratching the
surface of the issue of housing.
So I'm so appreciative of Patcoming on and talking with me.
(04:04):
If you would like to support theshow, you can visit patreon.com
slash NH has issues.
If you, like Pat, might have anidea for an episode, send me an
email.
Newhampshire has issues atgmail.com.
Uh it is December, it is cold,it is snowy, it is dark at 2
p.m.
Please take care of yourself.
Listen to the podcast, laugh atsome jokes here or there, and
I'm gonna do my best to get youan episode, one more episode,
(04:26):
before 2026, and then we'll beback with our regularly
scheduled programming.
All right, I will pass it overto me.
Welcome to New Hampshire HasIssues, the podcast that dares
to ask what learnings are wegonna do today on this podcast
from the issues we've alreadytalked about?
What can I learn and what are wegonna learn together?
My guest today is PatriciaVincent Piet.
(04:50):
Very good.
Very good, are you sure?
So, my guest today is PatriciaVincent Piet, who is a
disability rights advocate and alistener of the show, knows
enough about the show to knowthat I love musicals, and when
we connected on email, promisedme we would talk about musicals
on this episode, which is great.
I'm so glad that you are here,Patricia.
(05:11):
Thank you.
Do you go by Patricia or Pat?
I feel like I've seen Pat.
You can call me Pat.
Okay.
Do you have a tagline for me forour episode together?
New Hampshire has issues, thepodcast that dares to ask.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Why does New Hampshire seem to hate me?
And uh and people and allinterventions would dispel us.
Hmm.
Oh why?
Why do they why did it seem likethey're out to get us?
Hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (05:44):
Hard-hitting tagline on the podcast today.
That is for sure.
That's great.
But the question is, why are thepolicies and the practices and
the laws in our state, why arethey in such a way that cause
harm to folks with disabilities?
Why is this how New Hampshire isbehaving?
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
And why have recently it felt like feels like
they're going out out of theirway to disenfranchise people?
SPEAKER_02 (06:13):
Let's get into it, Pat, because that is the
question that I have as well.
So why don't we start with alittle bit of background about
yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (06:21):
I have a relatively mild version of simple party.
So growing up, I could m whatthey call mask pretty well.
I I mean the emphasis away withtherapy, physical therapy,
speech therapy was let'snormalize this person so they
(06:44):
can have a typical typical life.
And I discovered at some pointyeah, that just wasn't gonna
happen.
Like you can only disguise thisvoice so much.
You can only disguise my wobbleso much.
And so I lived most of my lifeoutside the disability
(07:10):
community, just trying to fit inand be quote unquote normal.
When I went to school, I was ina typical classroom, they called
it mainstreaming at the time,and never interacted with
disabled kids.
I would do it everythingcompletely inclusive classrooms.
(07:30):
I never knew anyone with adisability.
Wow.
Until really until my latetwenties.
I mean I had some interaction.
I had some interaction incollege, but I went to college
about the time the ADA passed.
And I went to a small privatecollege.
There weren't many people withdisabilities in my college.
(07:53):
So I ended up actually datingsomeone who was really
interested in my identity as aperson with a disability.
And I and to me I had neveridentified that way.
And so when he was veryinterested in that, I started
getting interested in it too.
(08:15):
And I discovered somethingcalled the disability culture
and the disability rightsmovement.
I went on to to marry someonewho was completely outside of
that and spent time in a sort ofweird place for a few years.
But then when I b came after Igot divorced and came back to
(08:37):
New Hampshire, I was trying tocreate a life for myself.
And someone suggested, why don'tyou get in touch with disability
organizations maybe they canhelp you find your niche
employment-wise.
And when I did it opened up awhole new world, including the
(09:00):
how I met my current husband,who has stable bodied well,
he'll need support for most ofhis what we call ADL's activity
to daily living.
So even though Jim has a masterdegree and worked for the state
for twenty to mod years, hestill needs help with getting
(09:23):
out of bed, eating, using thebathroom.
We're both part of thisdisability culture, and yet we
experienced it very differently.
He went to a second school, hewent to Quadrick Mountain.
He grew up entirely around otherkids with disabilities.
(09:44):
I grew up not knowing any kidwith disabilities with
disabilities.
And so we realized sort of earlyon that our experiences really
brought a lot to the discussionabout disability and disability
rates here in New Hampshire.
So I got involved with the NewHampshire Council on
(10:08):
Developmental Disabilities.
I worked for Grancy IndependentLiving for a while.
Um, and just got to know a lotof people in the disability
community here in New Hampshire.
I was working under real estateagent at the time.
I started uh to dig into why isit so hard for people with
(10:33):
disabilities to find accessibleafford and affordable housing?
What are the funding strengths?
How do they work?
How do they add to the problem?
How do they help the problem?
And different theories oninclusion from the leaders of
the disability rates movement.
(10:53):
People like Ed Roberts, who wasa guy who lived in an iron rung
and started the Indi independentliving movement.
And Justin Dort, he's oftencalled the father of the ADA.
Yeah, polio.
SPEAKER_02 (11:11):
Can I ask you about that actually?
ADA?
Because you mentioned thisearlier.
You said that you went tocollege, I believe, and when
they were passing the ADA.
Yes.
So maybe a simple question, assimple as this can be, what is
the ADA?
What does it stand for and whatdoes it mean?
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
American with Displays Act.
So with an act that passed in1990, it was signed into law by
George H.W.
Bush.
And basically it's it was acivil rights law for people with
displays, by ensuring that wehad access to spaces and
(11:51):
programs, employment, housing,transportation, uh everything
that most people took forgranted that you just did.
You just got on the bus.
You just went out and got a job.
You just you just got into thestore or the theater.
(12:13):
And until then, a lot of peoplewith dispos didn't do any of
those things.
SPEAKER_02 (12:19):
Right.
That's the that's the earlynineties you just said that it
was passed in the earlynineties.
SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
1990.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Yeah, that late.
That is not that long ago.
That is so recent.
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
It is and and the final version the past was
lacking.
Extremely lacking as far as thedisability community was
concerned, right?
A lot of things got taken outthat people with disabilities
really needed.
There have been attempts afterattempt to roll it back.
(12:56):
Right.
But the minimal exitability justis too much for so many people.
And so they're constantly tryingto roll it back.
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
I sort of introduced you as being a disability rights
advocate.
When we talk about that phrasedisability rights, because it it
seems like, you know, the ADApassed in 1990.
Not that long ago.
Wild how recent that was.
What does disability rightsactually mean, maybe in daily
life for folks withdisabilities?
SPEAKER_00 (13:27):
It means people with disabilities get to do what
everyone else takes for granted.
Like I went to college, uh, fouryears of college.
Not great grades, but prettygood grades, uh.
SPEAKER_02 (13:43):
A classic college student, which I did the grades,
I got 'em.
SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
I got out and was unable to find employment
because no one trusted me to dothe things I had just spent four
years and thousands of dollarslearning how to do.
Because they heard the speechimpediments and they saw the
wall when I walk, and theythought, yeah, we're not we're
(14:10):
not going there.
The ADA empowered my husband towork for twenty twenty-five
years for the university and andthen for the state.
(14:32):
But also simple things.
Like prior to the ADA, a lot ofstreets did not have code cuts.
Yeah.
But most public buildings hadsteps at every entrance.
And there was no accessiblebathroom.
There was no way for vi blindand visually impaired people to
(14:57):
understand what was going onaround them.
But now if you go to crosswalk,you press the little button and
it's wait.
And then it and then it beepsand when it's coming close so
that you're not cross.
Well, that's because of the ideathat people who are blind are
visually impaired, don't get oneover by a cross.
SPEAKER_02 (15:21):
Just that we're we're asking for the basic
things.
I would like to be able to crossthe street without getting hit
by a car.
Yeah.
Basic things here.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
Just don't make me take my life in my hand.
SPEAKER_02 (15:36):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
To do so.
And now when you go to themovies, you can get forget what
it's called, but a device thatwill put captions for you.
Yeah.
That will capture in the movies.
I mean, bef before the ADA,people who wouldn't go to the
movies.
(15:58):
Right.
Because nothing was captioned.
All sorts of big and littlethings that make it possible.
Well, Jim and I go out torestaurants a lot.
Most of those restaurants 30, 40years ago, he would not have
been able to get into.
There i it would not have beenaccessible to him.
(16:20):
There would have been steps atevery entrance.
Right.
And still, I I mean I have allsorts of choice of older
buildings where people thinkthey are meeting the minimum
requirements or etc.
I've been to too many placeswhere they have like a ramp.
(16:41):
But at the top of the ramp,there's like a three-inch lip.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:49):
Whoops.
Whoopsie Daisy on that one.
Wow.
Yeah.
You mentioned the curb cuts, andit's like, you know, I've seen
some projects around the state,like playgrounds that have
become more accessible, whereinstead of using like the wood
chips uh on the ground, there'sthe different um material so
(17:10):
that young people who usewheelchairs or have mobility um
that wood chips would not behelpful to be able to move on,
they're able to do that.
And it's like, I think somepeople think that if you're
making changes in your town orcommunity for folks with
disabilities, that it onlybenefits folks with
disabilities.
It's like everybody benefits.
(17:31):
You got mom walking with astroller.
That's helpful with the curb.
Yes.
That helps every that helps lotsof people.
Our boys have talked about likethe playgrounds that have
changed, and they're like, it'sso great.
You know, be more kids get to behere.
That's pretty cool.
Like, that's really great foreverybody.
SPEAKER_00 (17:48):
And and it's safer for the the kids who can walk,
the kids who don't need thedebility.
Yeah.
Just a safer playground.
SPEAKER_02 (17:58):
Imagine.
Imagine having safer playgroundsfor the kids.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
I mean but but I mean you need someone who really
knows what they're doing to doit.
Yeah.
Because I think too, that we'regonna talk about housing.
SPEAKER_01 (18:13):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
There and I don't mean to call out the uh housing
housing authority here inConcord, but and this was so
remember this was like overtwenty years ago that I had gone
to one of their developments.
Fund of actually had theaccessible units in their
(18:36):
developments.
She didn't need the the unit,but um it was available.
So she was like, Oh, great, Ifinally live somewhere
accessible, you guys can comevisit me.
Well, we didn't think about.
So there was no cope cut to getfrom the parking lot.
The unit was perfectlywheelchair accessible.
(18:59):
There was no cope cut betweenthe parking lot and the unit.
Jim had to go all the way downto the end, like a block away to
the end of the street.
Oh my god.
And go out into traffic to getup on the sidewalk.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (19:19):
And so it's really funny with what people I love
that you say funny, dude.
As if that's that's the word todescribe that.
I don't know, horrifying,terrifying, ridiculous.
Whatever, whatever the wordsare.
SPEAKER_00 (19:35):
I mean, that happens a lot.
We made this accessible.
SPEAKER_02 (19:41):
Well, no, you didn't know, you missed something.
So housing is your wheelhouse.
That's how that's how you'vedescribed it is like this is the
thing that you know you're mostmost expert in.
I don't know how to say it, butlike this is your thing, right?
So I heard you talk aboutindependent living and housing,
and the a question that you sortof prompted as well is why is it
(20:02):
so difficult to find housing inNew Hampshire for folks with
disabilities?
What's what's going on, Pat?
Tell me what's going on here.
So that's a complicated story.
SPEAKER_00 (20:13):
What?
So there are two laws that coverthat cover acceptable housing.
The both federal laws is Section504 of the Rehabilitator Act.
Most people know that have heardof that connected to education.
So I had a 504 plan.
(20:34):
Yep.
But section 504 of therehabilitator, it actually one
paragraph at the very end of therebuilt data act, and all it
said was all federally fundedprograms and buildings have to
be made basically accessible topeople with disabilities.
(20:55):
The Act passed in 1973.
1977 rolled around and it stillhas not been implemented.
The fight to force the federalgovernment to implement Section
504 was one of the mostremarkable moments or fight in
(21:20):
disability history.
When I talk about disabilityhistory and I talk about
disability culture, one aspectof that is the history of the
disability rights movement, thena lot of people don't even s
don't even know that thishistory exists.
So when they finally in theearly eighties started to put in
(21:46):
place um rules around federallyfunded housing accessibility.
All new federally funded housinghad to make 10% of the units
accessible.
The other law that affectsaccessible housing is the
(22:07):
American Ridge Purities Act.
After the ADA passed, that 10%requirement was passed to all
housing providers.
The problem with that was thatit was only for multifamily
developments over six units andlarger, and it didn't cover
(22:31):
townhomes.
So single-family homes,townhomes, and multifamily
buildings with five units orless did not have to have any
type of accessibility.
Now, two things happened afterthis.
Right around the time it passed,which was shortly after the
(22:53):
housing market in New Hampshirecrashed.
Oh boy.
And people and people werebuilding.
So, yay, we had this brand newlaw.
No one was building housing.
So if you look, a lot of themultifamily housing, the logic
of multifamily housingdevelopments, are either built
(23:15):
in the 80s or they're brand new.
If they're brand new, marketrates multifamily housings, they
are expensive.
So you may have theaccessibility, but you don't
have the affordability.
And so when buildings started toramp back up in the early 2000s,
(23:39):
what were they building?
Single families, townhomes, anda lot of deep places.
None of those, none of thosehousing options had to be made
accessible.
So we end up with far fewer than10% of our housing units being
basically accessible.
(24:00):
One thing I often get fromhousing providers when I talk
about this though, is well webuild accessible housing, but we
don't have anybody withdisability to fill the housing.
There's a couple of problemswith this, right?
One is that most people withdisability don't drive, which is
a big issue.
(24:22):
So you if you're gonna put uphousing, it needs to be walkable
to things like employment andand shopping and uh health care,
or they need to have publictransportation ability.
So you build yes, you build thisnice place out in the middle of
nowhere, but people withdisabilities aren't going to
(24:45):
come live there because thenthey are stuck out in the middle
of nowhere.
SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
New Hampshire, I'm gonna take a controversial
stance here.
But New Hampshire isn't knownfor its public transportation in
this state.
No, it isn't so you're sayingthat one of the issues here is
that when these folks are goingto build new housing, they're
(25:11):
saying, well, if we buildaccessible units, people won't
move here who have disabilities.
And the counterpoint to that is,well, that's because there are
all these other services thatare missing that make it livable
to be in that community in thefirst place.
Like you need to have a way toget to the grocery store, get to
(25:32):
the doctor's office to be ableto be near the services and and
employment as well, a place toto work when you live there.
SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
And if you need to put to get out of bed in the
morning to eat, to do all thethings that people do, you need
to have other affordable housingin the area so that people
providing you the services canlive within a reasonable
distance of you.
(26:00):
Because when you're an hourlyworker, if you're having to
travel an hour each way to workfor someone for a couple of
hours and then travel anotherhour to work for someone else
who needs a couple of uh I mean,so i it's the location of this
housing too, which so a lot ofpeople think the answer to that
(26:25):
then is supported housing.
So there's another po there's aprogram called Section 8 811
housing, which is fairly fundedhousing, specifically for people
with disabilities, and it oftenprovides services as well.
The problem with this housing isa it's segregated.
(26:51):
And when you tie services andhousing together, so if you're
receiving your personal careservices from the same
organization that's providingyour housing, you're kind of
stuck with both.
When Jim and I met, he wasliving in Section 11 housing.
(27:14):
It's not designed for families.
But it sometimes it feels likethe assumption is that people
with disabilities, people whoneed divisions are going to
remain single and alone andalone entire life.
So they only need to they onlyneed, you know, one bedroom tiny
(27:38):
apartment.
We've created this littlesegregated enclave.
So we've done our point, notconsidering the fact that, well,
they might get married and thenhave children and hot take.
SPEAKER_02 (27:52):
People with disabilities, they're people.
Turns out.
Turns out they're they'rehumans.
SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
So Jim and I had my condo.
Well, I had a detached condo,none of which had to be made
accessible because they woulddetach condos when they were
built.
We ended up having to w moveinto this really expensive
market weight apartment that wastaking up like over half half
(28:22):
our income a month.
SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
Because we made too much money to qualify for
subsidized housing.
But most market weight housingthat was reasonably put was not
accessible.
SPEAKER_02 (28:37):
Make too much money for the subsidized housing that
would be accessible, but havingto live somewhere else can
afford the place, but it is notaccessible.
So what does New Hampshire do,Pat?
Like how is New Hampshirehelping?
Do does New Hampshire help?
(28:59):
What is New Hampshire?
Does New Hampshire help?
Is it hurting?
Like what should New Hampshirebe doing?
What are they doing?
SPEAKER_00 (29:06):
So a big thing that would be really helpful, and it
seems like that's happening now,is that communities are allowing
larger multifamily projects.
So if you have largermultifamily projects, 10% of
(29:28):
them are going to be accessible.
Again, it's a question of whereyou're locating them and are you
ensuring that either they havepublic transportation or or are
located close enough to supportsand services that someone can
(29:49):
can access it withouttransportation.
When we talk about the theSection 811 housing, so that
segregated housing is just forpeople.
People with disabilities insteadof having that program, because
people with disabilities are theonly minority that it's legal to
(30:10):
segregate us, but you you don'thave segregated housing programs
for any of the minority.
So can we take the money thatwe're spending on Section 811
housing and use that tosubsidize units in more
inclusive housing?
I I think that's being that'sbeing thought of how they can.
SPEAKER_02 (30:36):
Because that's federal money, right?
The Section 811 would befederal.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
So I'm assuming that it would be complicated, but I
also have my reservation tosegregating people based on
income, which is what we'redoing right now.
Like you either living in insubsidized housing.
There's also vouchers.
(31:01):
So I know that there's a voucherprogram that people can can use
to section eight?
Section eight.
Yep.
That's why I'm okay.
SPEAKER_02 (31:15):
I was thinking the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
I was like, I think there's section eight, but now
there's section eight eleven.
Here I am pretending like I knowall this about housing.
And I'm no like, no, I don't.
So section eight housing.
Yep.
It had the voucher program sothat someone with a disability
who qualifies for take sectioneight housing could take that
(31:38):
money.
And that was intended to stopsegregating people based on
income.
And so is the way to do thatwith Section 811 housing.
SPEAKER_02 (31:51):
Because Section 811, you're saying, is like the
housing that is built issegregated from folks who do not
have disabilities.
So it's specifically for folkswith disabilities, those units
entirely, like a building thathas that or is all just Section
811 versus Section 8 housing isvoucher, you would receive
(32:14):
funding to help support yourrents where you might live.
If I'm understanding itcorrectly.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
So some section eight is project-based, so so
developers can get section eightfunding to develop affordable
housing, and then the sectioneight funding is tied to the
units that are built, and thenthe section eight voucher
(32:42):
program, with the section eightfunding is tied to the
individual, which allowed formore choice for people with low
low incomes.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
So those programs are federal programs, like
that's federal funding that goestowards these, so these housing
initiatives, let's say.
What does the state of NewHampshire do?
Like, does the state haveprograms that are there to help
fund new housing development andto ensure that we have public
(33:16):
transportation?
I'm going to laugh at that ownquestion, but is the state doing
things specifically in this inthis space?
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
No.
No, the state did not.
Now, in the past, the state hashad some grant funding
available, but there's no likepredictable funding stream that
you can tap into.
SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
What a great phrase.
Predictable funding stream.
Like imagine if things werepredictable for folks.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Wild.
Wild, yeah.
No, there's there as far as I'maware, and someone can correct
me if I'm wrong, there is nostate funding.
No state dollars go to houding.
I think the only time statedollars have gone to hounding,
it's been in the form of likegrants or temporary funding.
SPEAKER_02 (34:12):
Like gap type funding.
From what I can tell, if I ifI've read the news correctly,
housing is a big issue in NewHampshire.
Housing is a big issue foreveryone in New Hampshire.
And so what I'm hearing you say,Pat, is that it is an even
bigger issue for folks who needaccessible housing.
(34:35):
Because that is even morelimited than the housing, which
is already extremely limited inthis state.
SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
Yes.
Yeah.
Exigable, affordable, andintegrated.
So a lot of people have theylook back to things like group
homes or the section elevenhousing.
Again, group homes okay, but itis somewhere that you would want
(35:05):
to live.
If it's a place that you wouldnot want to live.
People living in this group homesituation, they really don't
have a lot of say over theirdaily routines.
They often don't have a lot ofsay over who is providing their
services.
(35:26):
And again, we want to avoidhousing people in some place
that's going to end up beingthat place.
Right.
You walk by the house and it'sthat place.
That place.
SPEAKER_02 (35:41):
Italicized that place.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
When those people live, it's not what you and I
would find acceptable housingoptions.
And so the more the more we cancreate truly inclusive,
accessible, and affordable,which affordability is.
(36:05):
I'm not even I know.
SPEAKER_02 (36:06):
I feel like I wrote down something you said.
Accessibility.
You need accessibility and youneed affordability.
It can't just be accessible.
It also needs to be affordable.
SPEAKER_00 (36:15):
It does, it needs to be affordable and it needs to be
integrated.
People with disabilities deserveto live in their with everyone
else.
With non-dis, right, and not offin their own little enclaves.
And sometimes I think we'resetting young people up.
(36:37):
Young people with disabilitiesup.
Right.
We've worked so hard to keepthem in their own communities
with their own families.
And then they graduate and theyhave to go live in that place
over there.
Because we have no we have noroom for them.
Or or they have to stay at homeas adults.
(37:01):
They have to live with theirparents indefinitely.
When I think about the idealsituation for housing, I think
about universal design.
SPEAKER_02 (37:12):
Oh, explain that.
What's universal design?
SPEAKER_00 (37:16):
Universal design is creating spaces that are usable
to the largest number of people.
So it's not it didn't meetentirely accessible standards,
but it's usable to most people.
So there is uh an entrance thathad no step.
(37:37):
There were a bathroom facilitythat you can get to and use
safely and comfortably.
There's the opportunity foraccessible communication for
people with who are deaf orheart of hearing or blind or
visually impaired.
So when we design a space, wedon't put a step at the top of
(38:01):
the ramp.
SPEAKER_02 (38:04):
Don't the big finale of the ramp is not a step.
That is not the best way to goabout that.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (38:10):
So when we're creating housing, how can we
create how can we create as manyunits in the development that
have wired doors, a no-stepentrance, a bathroom that's
accessible, a bedroom on thelower floor, so that so that
anyone can live there.
(38:32):
How do we how do we make as muchnew housing as possible that
way?
And another issue another issuewith housing also is according
to the law, if someone with adisability wants to rent a unit
that doesn't meet their needs,they can rent that unit and the
(38:56):
landlord has to allow them attheir own expense, at the at the
tenant expense, to make the unitaccessible to them.
Right?
So when Jim and I first movedinto that really expensive
apartment, it was basicallyaccessible, but it didn't have a
rolling shower.
(39:18):
So we had we had to take out aloan to put a rolling shower
into an apartment that we wererenting.
Technically, the landlord couldhave forced us at our own
expense to return the bathroomthe way it was.
(39:39):
Yeah.
That's the rule.
Is that a state law or is that aNo, that's a that's a that's
allowable by the ADA.
Yeah.
No.
I had to warn someone who he hadput in a stairlift in his unit.
(40:01):
And I'm like, you do know thatwhen you move out of here, your
landlord can force you to pay tohave that ticket out.
And he was not aware.
Wow.
Now, fortunately in myexperience, a lot of landlords
don't.
(40:21):
Right.
Because our apartment had twobathrooms.
The volume shower, I'm sure,would not a was not a problem if
it had a bathroom in the otherbathroom.
But yeah, they could they couldhave forced us to put it back.
SPEAKER_02 (40:37):
Holy smokes.
Yeah.
I mean it's it's accessiblehousing, it's affordable
housing, it's the impactfinancially moving in to make
your space accessible if it isnot already.
That's that's a high cost.
It is potentially putting itback the way it was, the
(40:59):
financial cost there, if it's ifthe landlord forces that issue.
And something that you mentionedbefore is also like for folks
who need in-home care in someway, it's making sure that those
individuals have housing nearbyand affordable housing nearby,
because they are often not paidhuge, they don't make huge
(41:22):
salaries.
And so they need to have housingthat they can live in and
commute to to be able to supportfolks in all this housing that
we're talking about.
Right.
It's a lot of layers here, Pat.
It's a lot of layers.
Just for housing.
SPEAKER_00 (41:37):
It's like a really guessy cake.
unknown (41:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:44):
It's a really cool cake.
SPEAKER_02 (41:46):
A terrible onion where you just keep peeling it
back, and you're like, there'sno use there's no usable part of
this onion, is it?
It's pretty pretty bad.
Time to get a new onionentirely.
SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
So I I mean the one way that we can w to change that
law, like, is to make it so thatpeople would disvaluate if they
do move in and change it.
They don't have to change itback.
And I understand, you know,small landlords, if you're
(42:21):
putting in an accessibilityfeature that's gonna make it
unusable for another tenant.
But there must be some way tofund modifications and the
retraction of thosemodifications without taking it
(42:44):
out of the income of people forwhom their income is already
paying limited.
SPEAKER_02 (42:50):
Pat, we didn't even cover 90% of the questions that
I had for you in advance becausethis topic alone has so much
depth to it.
You know, I had a housingepisode with Nick Taylor, and I
had a homelessness episode withErica and Lauren from Families
in Transition.
And housing is such a huge issuein New Hampshire.
(43:13):
And, you know, my tagline at thebeginning, jokesy, but not, was
like, what am I gonna learn?
I'm learning about so many ofthe layers of housing beyond
like the quick headlines of wedon't have enough housing.
Like there's a lot of depth herethat kind of terrifies me.
What could someone do to make apositive impact here?
(43:37):
Like if I live in a town and I'mlike, okay, I listen to this
podcast.
We definitely don't have publictransportation.
I don't know if we're buildingany new housing anytime soon,
but I don't know how muchaccessible housing we have.
What could a listener do to makea positive impact?
SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
You could start by, you know, perhaps a town could
have a fund that's thatsupported people who needed to
move into an inaccessible unitto make that exit to make that
unit accessible and meet theirneeds.
When you're looking at newhousing being built, so there's
(44:15):
there's a lot of discussionaround auxiliary living units.
Um so people who have singlefamily homes are adding like a
small permit to their homes alot of times for their kids or
(44:36):
family or friends who can'tfind.
Can we look at requiring someaccessibility in in those ex
auxiliary units or some sort offinancial incentive to make
these units more accessible?
Can we look at the tr the availavailability of transportation
(45:02):
in our community and how we cancreate more public
transportation which wouldbenefit not just people with
disabilities but would benefitthe entire all of the people.
Everybody benefits.
Right.
More more public transportationoptions.
(45:22):
Yeah.
And when people are talkingabout building segregated
accessible housing, are wereally are we really asking the
right questions to make surethat that housing is is still a
part of the community.
Right?
(45:42):
So that the people in that inthat unit on that street are
feel just as much a part of thecommunity as the family who just
bought the expensive house nextdoor.
Pat, thank you so much for beingon the podcast today.
Thank you, Liz.
(46:03):
You know, the title of thepodcast, New Hampshire had
issues.
You have an endless supply ofissues to talk.
SPEAKER_02 (46:10):
There are so many issues.
If I've learned one major thingtoday, it's that even when I
think I kind of understand anissue, we go eight layers deeper
and it's like, oh no, it's wayworse than I thought it was.
Every issue comes with itsacronyms.
(46:30):
If I'm gonna publish a book,it's gonna be the New Hampshire
has Issues acronym guide.
Here is your guide to acronymsfor housing, for education, for
I'm like there, everybody's gotan acronym, so don't you worry.
That would be a bestseller.
SPEAKER_00 (46:45):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (46:46):
That'd be a number one New York Times bestseller.
What are the acronyms that youhear in New Hampshire has
Issues?
Do you have your tickets to Wicked for good yet?
No! No!
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
No, I do not.
I don't buy them ahead of time.
I know I should.
We have planned to go.
So I think I told you in one ofthe emails that Wicked actually
is an interesting issue in thedisability community.
SPEAKER_02 (00:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
Because in spoiler alerts, in case it makes it.
SPEAKER_02 (00:28):
Spoiler alert.
When's this gonna go live?
I hope people have seen themovie.
SPEAKER_00 (00:33):
In case it makes it in.
In the second act, if we've seenthe original Broadway show, her
sister.
SPEAKER_02 (00:42):
Nesserose.
SPEAKER_00 (00:43):
Nesserose.
She put on the shoes.
Yeah.
And she gets up and walks.
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Which is a really big no-no.
Extremely ableist.
SPEAKER_02 (00:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
So the director of the movie has changed that
point.
Because actually the actorplaying this road in the movie,
unlike on the stage, had adisability.
She used the wheelchair that shedid.
So having her get up and walk isanother thing that's gonna
(01:20):
happen.
Yeah.
So they've they've reworked thatpart of the movie, which is very
much appreciated in thedigability community.
SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
By the time this episode goes live, probably
folks who are like you and me,who love the good and see it,
will probably have seen it.
But yes, in act two of themusical, Nessa Rose, who is in a
wheelchair, uses a wheelchair,she gets those ruby slippers
that we are so familiar withfrom Wizard of Oz, which puts
them on, and now she's able towalk.
(01:52):
And that being incrediblyableist.
And so we'll see what they do inthe movie.
It's pretty exciting that theyare taking that feedback and
learning how to best demonstratewhat it means for an actress and
for this character who uses awheelchair, what that would look
(02:15):
like for for her.
SPEAKER_00 (02:17):
Right.
Because having acted withoutdisabilities portray characters
with disabilities is reallyfrowned upon in the disability
community.
It's been really long in thedisability community.
When Queen is recognized, pleasedon't do that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:38):
Yeah, right.
And it has been so prevalent infilm and television of folks who
do not have the disability thatthey are portraying, and how
problematic that is to do that.
Exactly.
So yay! So we can do that.
Good job, John too.
Good job, director.
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
Good job, Fred.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
So we'll see, we'll see what happens and we'll see
if we how we how we feel aboutit, the change.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Dare I say, for good.
Oh you're listening to NewHampshire Has Issues, and I am
(03:22):
your host, Liz Canada.
I was so honored and excitedwhen Pat reached out to me about
a podcast that she works oncalled That's Inclusive, which
is the podcast from the NewHampshire Council on
Developmental Disabilities.
And she emailed me and, youknow, referenced that I like
musicals and she likes musicals,you know, a little this and
that.
(03:42):
I was like, Pat, why don't youcome on my podcast and talk
about disability rights?
And so here she is.
And we spend a lot of thisepisode talking about housing.
And I feel like housing, might Isay, is the talk of the town
right now.
And I really feel like we'rejust barely scratching the
surface of the issue of housing.
So I'm so appreciative of Patcoming on and talking with me.
(04:04):
If you would like to support theshow, you can visit patreon.com
slash NH has issues.
If you, like Pat, might have anidea for an episode, send me an
email.
Newhampshire has issues atgmail.com.
Uh it is December, it is cold,it is snowy, it is dark at 2
p.m.
Please take care of yourself.
Listen to the podcast, laugh atsome jokes here or there, and
I'm gonna do my best to get youan episode, one more episode,
(04:26):
before 2026, and then we'll beback with our regularly
scheduled programming.
All right, I will pass it overto me.
Welcome to New Hampshire HasIssues, the podcast that dares
to ask what learnings are wegonna do today on this podcast
from the issues we've alreadytalked about?
What can I learn and what are wegonna learn together?
My guest today is PatriciaVincent Piet.
(04:50):
Very good.
Very good, are you sure?
So, my guest today is PatriciaVincent Piet, who is a
disability rights advocate and alistener of the show, knows
enough about the show to knowthat I love musicals, and when
we connected on email, promisedme we would talk about musicals
on this episode, which is great.
I'm so glad that you are here,Patricia.
(05:11):
Thank you.
Do you go by Patricia or Pat?
I feel like I've seen Pat.
You can call me Pat.
Okay.
Do you have a tagline for me forour episode together?
New Hampshire has issues, thepodcast that dares to ask.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Why does New Hampshire seem to hate me?
And uh and people and allinterventions would dispel us.
Hmm.
Oh why?
Why do they why did it seem likethey're out to get us?
Hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (05:44):
Hard-hitting tagline on the podcast today.
That is for sure.
That's great.
But the question is, why are thepolicies and the practices and
the laws in our state, why arethey in such a way that cause
harm to folks with disabilities?
Why is this how New Hampshire isbehaving?
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
And why have recently it felt like feels like
they're going out out of theirway to disenfranchise people?
SPEAKER_02 (06:13):
Let's get into it, Pat, because that is the
question that I have as well.
So why don't we start with alittle bit of background about
yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (06:21):
I have a relatively mild version of simple party.
So growing up, I could m whatthey call mask pretty well.
I I mean the emphasis away withtherapy, physical therapy,
speech therapy was let'snormalize this person so they
(06:44):
can have a typical typical life.
And I discovered at some pointyeah, that just wasn't gonna
happen.
Like you can only disguise thisvoice so much.
You can only disguise my wobbleso much.
And so I lived most of my lifeoutside the disability
(07:10):
community, just trying to fit inand be quote unquote normal.
When I went to school, I was ina typical classroom, they called
it mainstreaming at the time,and never interacted with
disabled kids.
I would do it everythingcompletely inclusive classrooms.
(07:30):
I never knew anyone with adisability.
Wow.
Until really until my latetwenties.
I mean I had some interaction.
I had some interaction incollege, but I went to college
about the time the ADA passed.
And I went to a small privatecollege.
There weren't many people withdisabilities in my college.
(07:53):
So I ended up actually datingsomeone who was really
interested in my identity as aperson with a disability.
And I and to me I had neveridentified that way.
And so when he was veryinterested in that, I started
getting interested in it too.
(08:15):
And I discovered somethingcalled the disability culture
and the disability rightsmovement.
I went on to to marry someonewho was completely outside of
that and spent time in a sort ofweird place for a few years.
But then when I b came after Igot divorced and came back to
(08:37):
New Hampshire, I was trying tocreate a life for myself.
And someone suggested, why don'tyou get in touch with disability
organizations maybe they canhelp you find your niche
employment-wise.
And when I did it opened up awhole new world, including the
(09:00):
how I met my current husband,who has stable bodied well,
he'll need support for most ofhis what we call ADL's activity
to daily living.
So even though Jim has a masterdegree and worked for the state
for twenty to mod years, hestill needs help with getting
(09:23):
out of bed, eating, using thebathroom.
We're both part of thisdisability culture, and yet we
experienced it very differently.
He went to a second school, hewent to Quadrick Mountain.
He grew up entirely around otherkids with disabilities.
(09:44):
I grew up not knowing any kidwith disabilities with
disabilities.
And so we realized sort of earlyon that our experiences really
brought a lot to the discussionabout disability and disability
rates here in New Hampshire.
So I got involved with the NewHampshire Council on
(10:08):
Developmental Disabilities.
I worked for Grancy IndependentLiving for a while.
Um, and just got to know a lotof people in the disability
community here in New Hampshire.
I was working under real estateagent at the time.
I started uh to dig into why isit so hard for people with
(10:33):
disabilities to find accessibleafford and affordable housing?
What are the funding strengths?
How do they work?
How do they add to the problem?
How do they help the problem?
And different theories oninclusion from the leaders of
the disability rates movement.
(10:53):
People like Ed Roberts, who wasa guy who lived in an iron rung
and started the Indi independentliving movement.
And Justin Dort, he's oftencalled the father of the ADA.
Yeah, polio.
SPEAKER_02 (11:11):
Can I ask you about that actually?
ADA?
Because you mentioned thisearlier.
You said that you went tocollege, I believe, and when
they were passing the ADA.
Yes.
So maybe a simple question, assimple as this can be, what is
the ADA?
What does it stand for and whatdoes it mean?
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
American with Displays Act.
So with an act that passed in1990, it was signed into law by
George H.W.
Bush.
And basically it's it was acivil rights law for people with
displays, by ensuring that wehad access to spaces and
(11:51):
programs, employment, housing,transportation, uh everything
that most people took forgranted that you just did.
You just got on the bus.
You just went out and got a job.
You just you just got into thestore or the theater.
(12:13):
And until then, a lot of peoplewith dispos didn't do any of
those things.
SPEAKER_02 (12:19):
Right.
That's the that's the earlynineties you just said that it
was passed in the earlynineties.
SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
1990.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Yeah, that late.
That is not that long ago.
That is so recent.
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
It is and and the final version the past was
lacking.
Extremely lacking as far as thedisability community was
concerned, right?
A lot of things got taken outthat people with disabilities
really needed.
There have been attempts afterattempt to roll it back.
(12:56):
Right.
But the minimal exitability justis too much for so many people.
And so they're constantly tryingto roll it back.
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
I sort of introduced you as being a disability rights
advocate.
When we talk about that phrasedisability rights, because it it
seems like, you know, the ADApassed in 1990.
Not that long ago.
Wild how recent that was.
What does disability rightsactually mean, maybe in daily
life for folks withdisabilities?
SPEAKER_00 (13:27):
It means people with disabilities get to do what
everyone else takes for granted.
Like I went to college, uh, fouryears of college.
Not great grades, but prettygood grades, uh.
SPEAKER_02 (13:43):
A classic college student, which I did the grades,
I got 'em.
SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
I got out and was unable to find employment
because no one trusted me to dothe things I had just spent four
years and thousands of dollarslearning how to do.
Because they heard the speechimpediments and they saw the
wall when I walk, and theythought, yeah, we're not we're
(14:10):
not going there.
The ADA empowered my husband towork for twenty twenty-five
years for the university and andthen for the state.
(14:32):
But also simple things.
Like prior to the ADA, a lot ofstreets did not have code cuts.
Yeah.
But most public buildings hadsteps at every entrance.
And there was no accessiblebathroom.
There was no way for vi blindand visually impaired people to
(14:57):
understand what was going onaround them.
But now if you go to crosswalk,you press the little button and
it's wait.
And then it and then it beepsand when it's coming close so
that you're not cross.
Well, that's because of the ideathat people who are blind are
visually impaired, don't get oneover by a cross.
SPEAKER_02 (15:21):
Just that we're we're asking for the basic
things.
I would like to be able to crossthe street without getting hit
by a car.
Yeah.
Basic things here.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
Just don't make me take my life in my hand.
SPEAKER_02 (15:36):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
To do so.
And now when you go to themovies, you can get forget what
it's called, but a device thatwill put captions for you.
Yeah.
That will capture in the movies.
I mean, bef before the ADA,people who wouldn't go to the
movies.
(15:58):
Right.
Because nothing was captioned.
All sorts of big and littlethings that make it possible.
Well, Jim and I go out torestaurants a lot.
Most of those restaurants 30, 40years ago, he would not have
been able to get into.
There i it would not have beenaccessible to him.
(16:20):
There would have been steps atevery entrance.
Right.
And still, I I mean I have allsorts of choice of older
buildings where people thinkthey are meeting the minimum
requirements or etc.
I've been to too many placeswhere they have like a ramp.
(16:41):
But at the top of the ramp,there's like a three-inch lip.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:49):
Whoops.
Whoopsie Daisy on that one.
Wow.
Yeah.
You mentioned the curb cuts, andit's like, you know, I've seen
some projects around the state,like playgrounds that have
become more accessible, whereinstead of using like the wood
chips uh on the ground, there'sthe different um material so
(17:10):
that young people who usewheelchairs or have mobility um
that wood chips would not behelpful to be able to move on,
they're able to do that.
And it's like, I think somepeople think that if you're
making changes in your town orcommunity for folks with
disabilities, that it onlybenefits folks with
disabilities.
It's like everybody benefits.
(17:31):
You got mom walking with astroller.
That's helpful with the curb.
Yes.
That helps every that helps lotsof people.
Our boys have talked about likethe playgrounds that have
changed, and they're like, it'sso great.
You know, be more kids get to behere.
That's pretty cool.
Like, that's really great foreverybody.
SPEAKER_00 (17:48):
And and it's safer for the the kids who can walk,
the kids who don't need thedebility.
Yeah.
Just a safer playground.
SPEAKER_02 (17:58):
Imagine.
Imagine having safer playgroundsfor the kids.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
I mean but but I mean you need someone who really
knows what they're doing to doit.
Yeah.
Because I think too, that we'regonna talk about housing.
SPEAKER_01 (18:13):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
There and I don't mean to call out the uh housing
housing authority here inConcord, but and this was so
remember this was like overtwenty years ago that I had gone
to one of their developments.
Fund of actually had theaccessible units in their
(18:36):
developments.
She didn't need the the unit,but um it was available.
So she was like, Oh, great, Ifinally live somewhere
accessible, you guys can comevisit me.
Well, we didn't think about.
So there was no cope cut to getfrom the parking lot.
The unit was perfectlywheelchair accessible.
(18:59):
There was no cope cut betweenthe parking lot and the unit.
Jim had to go all the way downto the end, like a block away to
the end of the street.
Oh my god.
And go out into traffic to getup on the sidewalk.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (19:19):
And so it's really funny with what people I love
that you say funny, dude.
As if that's that's the word todescribe that.
I don't know, horrifying,terrifying, ridiculous.
Whatever, whatever the wordsare.
SPEAKER_00 (19:35):
I mean, that happens a lot.
We made this accessible.
SPEAKER_02 (19:41):
Well, no, you didn't know, you missed something.
So housing is your wheelhouse.
That's how that's how you'vedescribed it is like this is the
thing that you know you're mostmost expert in.
I don't know how to say it, butlike this is your thing, right?
So I heard you talk aboutindependent living and housing,
and the a question that you sortof prompted as well is why is it
(20:02):
so difficult to find housing inNew Hampshire for folks with
disabilities?
What's what's going on, Pat?
Tell me what's going on here.
So that's a complicated story.
SPEAKER_00 (20:13):
What?
So there are two laws that coverthat cover acceptable housing.
The both federal laws is Section504 of the Rehabilitator Act.
Most people know that have heardof that connected to education.
So I had a 504 plan.
(20:34):
Yep.
But section 504 of therehabilitator, it actually one
paragraph at the very end of therebuilt data act, and all it
said was all federally fundedprograms and buildings have to
be made basically accessible topeople with disabilities.
(20:55):
The Act passed in 1973.
1977 rolled around and it stillhas not been implemented.
The fight to force the federalgovernment to implement Section
504 was one of the mostremarkable moments or fight in
(21:20):
disability history.
When I talk about disabilityhistory and I talk about
disability culture, one aspectof that is the history of the
disability rights movement, thena lot of people don't even s
don't even know that thishistory exists.
So when they finally in theearly eighties started to put in
(21:46):
place um rules around federallyfunded housing accessibility.
All new federally funded housinghad to make 10% of the units
accessible.
The other law that affectsaccessible housing is the
(22:07):
American Ridge Purities Act.
After the ADA passed, that 10%requirement was passed to all
housing providers.
The problem with that was thatit was only for multifamily
developments over six units andlarger, and it didn't cover
(22:31):
townhomes.
So single-family homes,townhomes, and multifamily
buildings with five units orless did not have to have any
type of accessibility.
Now, two things happened afterthis.
Right around the time it passed,which was shortly after the
(22:53):
housing market in New Hampshirecrashed.
Oh boy.
And people and people werebuilding.
So, yay, we had this brand newlaw.
No one was building housing.
So if you look, a lot of themultifamily housing, the logic
of multifamily housingdevelopments, are either built
(23:15):
in the 80s or they're brand new.
If they're brand new, marketrates multifamily housings, they
are expensive.
So you may have theaccessibility, but you don't
have the affordability.
And so when buildings started toramp back up in the early 2000s,
(23:39):
what were they building?
Single families, townhomes, anda lot of deep places.
None of those, none of thosehousing options had to be made
accessible.
So we end up with far fewer than10% of our housing units being
basically accessible.
(24:00):
One thing I often get fromhousing providers when I talk
about this though, is well webuild accessible housing, but we
don't have anybody withdisability to fill the housing.
There's a couple of problemswith this, right?
One is that most people withdisability don't drive, which is
a big issue.
(24:22):
So you if you're gonna put uphousing, it needs to be walkable
to things like employment andand shopping and uh health care,
or they need to have publictransportation ability.
So you build yes, you build thisnice place out in the middle of
nowhere, but people withdisabilities aren't going to
(24:45):
come live there because thenthey are stuck out in the middle
of nowhere.
SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
New Hampshire, I'm gonna take a controversial
stance here.
But New Hampshire isn't knownfor its public transportation in
this state.
No, it isn't so you're sayingthat one of the issues here is
that when these folks are goingto build new housing, they're
(25:11):
saying, well, if we buildaccessible units, people won't
move here who have disabilities.
And the counterpoint to that is,well, that's because there are
all these other services thatare missing that make it livable
to be in that community in thefirst place.
Like you need to have a way toget to the grocery store, get to
(25:32):
the doctor's office to be ableto be near the services and and
employment as well, a place toto work when you live there.
SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
And if you need to put to get out of bed in the
morning to eat, to do all thethings that people do, you need
to have other affordable housingin the area so that people
providing you the services canlive within a reasonable
distance of you.
(26:00):
Because when you're an hourlyworker, if you're having to
travel an hour each way to workfor someone for a couple of
hours and then travel anotherhour to work for someone else
who needs a couple of uh I mean,so i it's the location of this
housing too, which so a lot ofpeople think the answer to that
(26:25):
then is supported housing.
So there's another po there's aprogram called Section 8 811
housing, which is fairly fundedhousing, specifically for people
with disabilities, and it oftenprovides services as well.
The problem with this housing isa it's segregated.
(26:51):
And when you tie services andhousing together, so if you're
receiving your personal careservices from the same
organization that's providingyour housing, you're kind of
stuck with both.
When Jim and I met, he wasliving in Section 11 housing.
(27:14):
It's not designed for families.
But it sometimes it feels likethe assumption is that people
with disabilities, people whoneed divisions are going to
remain single and alone andalone entire life.
So they only need to they onlyneed, you know, one bedroom tiny
(27:38):
apartment.
We've created this littlesegregated enclave.
So we've done our point, notconsidering the fact that, well,
they might get married and thenhave children and hot take.
SPEAKER_02 (27:52):
People with disabilities, they're people.
Turns out.
Turns out they're they'rehumans.
SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
So Jim and I had my condo.
Well, I had a detached condo,none of which had to be made
accessible because they woulddetach condos when they were
built.
We ended up having to w moveinto this really expensive
market weight apartment that wastaking up like over half half
(28:22):
our income a month.
SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
Because we made too much money to qualify for
subsidized housing.
But most market weight housingthat was reasonably put was not
accessible.
SPEAKER_02 (28:37):
Make too much money for the subsidized housing that
would be accessible, but havingto live somewhere else can
afford the place, but it is notaccessible.
So what does New Hampshire do,Pat?
Like how is New Hampshirehelping?
Do does New Hampshire help?
(28:59):
What is New Hampshire?
Does New Hampshire help?
Is it hurting?
Like what should New Hampshirebe doing?
What are they doing?
SPEAKER_00 (29:06):
So a big thing that would be really helpful, and it
seems like that's happening now,is that communities are allowing
larger multifamily projects.
So if you have largermultifamily projects, 10% of
(29:28):
them are going to be accessible.
Again, it's a question of whereyou're locating them and are you
ensuring that either they havepublic transportation or or are
located close enough to supportsand services that someone can
(29:49):
can access it withouttransportation.
When we talk about the theSection 811 housing, so that
segregated housing is just forpeople.
People with disabilities insteadof having that program, because
people with disabilities are theonly minority that it's legal to
(30:10):
segregate us, but you you don'thave segregated housing programs
for any of the minority.
So can we take the money thatwe're spending on Section 811
housing and use that tosubsidize units in more
inclusive housing?
I I think that's being that'sbeing thought of how they can.
SPEAKER_02 (30:36):
Because that's federal money, right?
The Section 811 would befederal.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
So I'm assuming that it would be complicated, but I
also have my reservation tosegregating people based on
income, which is what we'redoing right now.
Like you either living in insubsidized housing.
There's also vouchers.
(31:01):
So I know that there's a voucherprogram that people can can use
to section eight?
Section eight.
Yep.
That's why I'm okay.
SPEAKER_02 (31:15):
I was thinking the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
I was like, I think there's section eight, but now
there's section eight eleven.
Here I am pretending like I knowall this about housing.
And I'm no like, no, I don't.
So section eight housing.
Yep.
It had the voucher program sothat someone with a disability
who qualifies for take sectioneight housing could take that
(31:38):
money.
And that was intended to stopsegregating people based on
income.
And so is the way to do thatwith Section 811 housing.
SPEAKER_02 (31:51):
Because Section 811, you're saying, is like the
housing that is built issegregated from folks who do not
have disabilities.
So it's specifically for folkswith disabilities, those units
entirely, like a building thathas that or is all just Section
811 versus Section 8 housing isvoucher, you would receive
(32:14):
funding to help support yourrents where you might live.
If I'm understanding itcorrectly.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
So some section eight is project-based, so so
developers can get section eightfunding to develop affordable
housing, and then the sectioneight funding is tied to the
units that are built, and thenthe section eight voucher
(32:42):
program, with the section eightfunding is tied to the
individual, which allowed formore choice for people with low
low incomes.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
So those programs are federal programs, like
that's federal funding that goestowards these, so these housing
initiatives, let's say.
What does the state of NewHampshire do?
Like, does the state haveprograms that are there to help
fund new housing development andto ensure that we have public
(33:16):
transportation?
I'm going to laugh at that ownquestion, but is the state doing
things specifically in this inthis space?
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
No.
No, the state did not.
Now, in the past, the state hashad some grant funding
available, but there's no likepredictable funding stream that
you can tap into.
SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
What a great phrase.
Predictable funding stream.
Like imagine if things werepredictable for folks.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Wild.
Wild, yeah.
No, there's there as far as I'maware, and someone can correct
me if I'm wrong, there is nostate funding.
No state dollars go to houding.
I think the only time statedollars have gone to hounding,
it's been in the form of likegrants or temporary funding.
SPEAKER_02 (34:12):
Like gap type funding.
From what I can tell, if I ifI've read the news correctly,
housing is a big issue in NewHampshire.
Housing is a big issue foreveryone in New Hampshire.
And so what I'm hearing you say,Pat, is that it is an even
bigger issue for folks who needaccessible housing.
(34:35):
Because that is even morelimited than the housing, which
is already extremely limited inthis state.
SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
Yes.
Yeah.
Exigable, affordable, andintegrated.
So a lot of people have theylook back to things like group
homes or the section elevenhousing.
Again, group homes okay, but itis somewhere that you would want
(35:05):
to live.
If it's a place that you wouldnot want to live.
People living in this group homesituation, they really don't
have a lot of say over theirdaily routines.
They often don't have a lot ofsay over who is providing their
services.
(35:26):
And again, we want to avoidhousing people in some place
that's going to end up beingthat place.
Right.
You walk by the house and it'sthat place.
That place.
SPEAKER_02 (35:41):
Italicized that place.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
When those people live, it's not what you and I
would find acceptable housingoptions.
And so the more the more we cancreate truly inclusive,
accessible, and affordable,which affordability is.
(36:05):
I'm not even I know.
SPEAKER_02 (36:06):
I feel like I wrote down something you said.
Accessibility.
You need accessibility and youneed affordability.
It can't just be accessible.
It also needs to be affordable.
SPEAKER_00 (36:15):
It does, it needs to be affordable and it needs to be
integrated.
People with disabilities deserveto live in their with everyone
else.
With non-dis, right, and not offin their own little enclaves.
And sometimes I think we'resetting young people up.
(36:37):
Young people with disabilitiesup.
Right.
We've worked so hard to keepthem in their own communities
with their own families.
And then they graduate and theyhave to go live in that place
over there.
Because we have no we have noroom for them.
Or or they have to stay at homeas adults.
(37:01):
They have to live with theirparents indefinitely.
When I think about the idealsituation for housing, I think
about universal design.
SPEAKER_02 (37:12):
Oh, explain that.
What's universal design?
SPEAKER_00 (37:16):
Universal design is creating spaces that are usable
to the largest number of people.
So it's not it didn't meetentirely accessible standards,
but it's usable to most people.
So there is uh an entrance thathad no step.
(37:37):
There were a bathroom facilitythat you can get to and use
safely and comfortably.
There's the opportunity foraccessible communication for
people with who are deaf orheart of hearing or blind or
visually impaired.
So when we design a space, wedon't put a step at the top of
(38:01):
the ramp.
SPEAKER_02 (38:04):
Don't the big finale of the ramp is not a step.
That is not the best way to goabout that.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (38:10):
So when we're creating housing, how can we
create how can we create as manyunits in the development that
have wired doors, a no-stepentrance, a bathroom that's
accessible, a bedroom on thelower floor, so that so that
anyone can live there.
(38:32):
How do we how do we make as muchnew housing as possible that
way?
And another issue another issuewith housing also is according
to the law, if someone with adisability wants to rent a unit
that doesn't meet their needs,they can rent that unit and the
(38:56):
landlord has to allow them attheir own expense, at the at the
tenant expense, to make the unitaccessible to them.
Right?
So when Jim and I first movedinto that really expensive
apartment, it was basicallyaccessible, but it didn't have a
rolling shower.
(39:18):
So we had we had to take out aloan to put a rolling shower
into an apartment that we wererenting.
Technically, the landlord couldhave forced us at our own
expense to return the bathroomthe way it was.
(39:39):
Yeah.
That's the rule.
Is that a state law or is that aNo, that's a that's a that's
allowable by the ADA.
Yeah.
No.
I had to warn someone who he hadput in a stairlift in his unit.
(40:01):
And I'm like, you do know thatwhen you move out of here, your
landlord can force you to pay tohave that ticket out.
And he was not aware.
Wow.
Now, fortunately in myexperience, a lot of landlords
don't.
(40:21):
Right.
Because our apartment had twobathrooms.
The volume shower, I'm sure,would not a was not a problem if
it had a bathroom in the otherbathroom.
But yeah, they could they couldhave forced us to put it back.
SPEAKER_02 (40:37):
Holy smokes.
Yeah.
I mean it's it's accessiblehousing, it's affordable
housing, it's the impactfinancially moving in to make
your space accessible if it isnot already.
That's that's a high cost.
It is potentially putting itback the way it was, the
(40:59):
financial cost there, if it's ifthe landlord forces that issue.
And something that you mentionedbefore is also like for folks
who need in-home care in someway, it's making sure that those
individuals have housing nearbyand affordable housing nearby,
because they are often not paidhuge, they don't make huge
(41:22):
salaries.
And so they need to have housingthat they can live in and
commute to to be able to supportfolks in all this housing that
we're talking about.
Right.
It's a lot of layers here, Pat.
It's a lot of layers.
Just for housing.
SPEAKER_00 (41:37):
It's like a really guessy cake.
unknown (41:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:44):
It's a really cool cake.
SPEAKER_02 (41:46):
A terrible onion where you just keep peeling it
back, and you're like, there'sno use there's no usable part of
this onion, is it?
It's pretty pretty bad.
Time to get a new onionentirely.
SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
So I I mean the one way that we can w to change that
law, like, is to make it so thatpeople would disvaluate if they
do move in and change it.
They don't have to change itback.
And I understand, you know,small landlords, if you're
(42:21):
putting in an accessibilityfeature that's gonna make it
unusable for another tenant.
But there must be some way tofund modifications and the
retraction of thosemodifications without taking it
(42:44):
out of the income of people forwhom their income is already
paying limited.
SPEAKER_02 (42:50):
Pat, we didn't even cover 90% of the questions that
I had for you in advance becausethis topic alone has so much
depth to it.
You know, I had a housingepisode with Nick Taylor, and I
had a homelessness episode withErica and Lauren from Families
in Transition.
And housing is such a huge issuein New Hampshire.
(43:13):
And, you know, my tagline at thebeginning, jokesy, but not, was
like, what am I gonna learn?
I'm learning about so many ofthe layers of housing beyond
like the quick headlines of wedon't have enough housing.
Like there's a lot of depth herethat kind of terrifies me.
What could someone do to make apositive impact here?
(43:37):
Like if I live in a town and I'mlike, okay, I listen to this
podcast.
We definitely don't have publictransportation.
I don't know if we're buildingany new housing anytime soon,
but I don't know how muchaccessible housing we have.
What could a listener do to makea positive impact?
SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
You could start by, you know, perhaps a town could
have a fund that's thatsupported people who needed to
move into an inaccessible unitto make that exit to make that
unit accessible and meet theirneeds.
When you're looking at newhousing being built, so there's
(44:15):
there's a lot of discussionaround auxiliary living units.
Um so people who have singlefamily homes are adding like a
small permit to their homes alot of times for their kids or
(44:36):
family or friends who can'tfind.
Can we look at requiring someaccessibility in in those ex
auxiliary units or some sort offinancial incentive to make
these units more accessible?
Can we look at the tr the availavailability of transportation
(45:02):
in our community and how we cancreate more public
transportation which wouldbenefit not just people with
disabilities but would benefitthe entire all of the people.
Everybody benefits.
Right.
More more public transportationoptions.
(45:22):
Yeah.
And when people are talkingabout building segregated
accessible housing, are wereally are we really asking the
right questions to make surethat that housing is is still a
part of the community.
Right?
(45:42):
So that the people in that inthat unit on that street are
feel just as much a part of thecommunity as the family who just
bought the expensive house nextdoor.
Pat, thank you so much for beingon the podcast today.
Thank you, Liz.
(46:03):
You know, the title of thepodcast, New Hampshire had
issues.
You have an endless supply ofissues to talk.
SPEAKER_02 (46:10):
There are so many issues.
If I've learned one major thingtoday, it's that even when I
think I kind of understand anissue, we go eight layers deeper
and it's like, oh no, it's wayworse than I thought it was.
Every issue comes with itsacronyms.
(46:30):
If I'm gonna publish a book,it's gonna be the New Hampshire
has Issues acronym guide.
Here is your guide to acronymsfor housing, for education, for
I'm like there, everybody's gotan acronym, so don't you worry.
That would be a bestseller.
SPEAKER_00 (46:45):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (46:46):
That'd be a number one New York Times bestseller.
What are the acronyms that youhear in New Hampshire has
Issues?
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