June 17, 2025 • 40 mins
How free are Education Freedom Accounts in New Hampshire? Why do some people call them school vouchers?
Liz asks Christina why this funding is being prioritized when other services are needed, and Christina asks Liz for a little time to draft a tagline.
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Have an idea for an upcoming episode? Email Liz: newhampshirehasissues@gmail.com
This episode pairs well with the School Funding episode with Zack Sheehan.
Links:
- Inside EFAs: A quarter of all Education Freedom Account tuition dollars went to five Christian schools, Monitor analysis finds (Concord Monitor)
- Report on Qualifying EFA Families Shows Errors in a Quarter of Applications (InDepthNH)
- Democrats call for deeper audit of New Hampshire Education Freedom Account after initial review (NH Bulletin)
- Ayotte signs bills to eliminate school voucher income cap and codify parental rights (NHPR)
- Universal voucher program signed into law despite concerns (Reaching Higher NH)
- Universal EFA program sees 500 applications in day one of expansion (Concord Monitor)
- Official in charge of NH school voucher program attends Trump ceremony dismantling US Department of Education (Granite Post)
- School Vouchers Were Supposed to Save Taxpayer Money. Instead They Blew a Massive Hole in Arizona’s Budget. (ProPublica)
- Understanding the Cost of Universal School Vouchers: An Analysis of Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account Program (Learning Policy Institute)
- Florida Continues to Drain Much-Needed Funds Away from Public Schools to Private and Home-School Students (Florida Policy Institute)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Commissioner Edelblut is fascinating because
he has no background experienceprior to being the commissioner
in public school, as far as Iknow.
SPEAKER_00 (00:07):
That's very true.
Yeah, he homeschooled all of hischildren.
His family homeschooled hischildren.
He was he did not come fromeducation whatsoever.
I think he even said before hetook the job, he had never even
walked into a public school, ifI remember correctly.
SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
And now he's been the commissioner.
He's been in charge of educationin New Hampshire, which is kind
of like making me thecommissioner of heterosexuality.
It's like I have no backgroundon the matter, but I've got a
lot of I've got a lot offeedback and I want to make a
lot of changes.
Got a lot of thoughts on thematter.
(00:43):
It's fine.
I would also give five thousanddollars to gay people.
Happy Pride Month.
Here you go.
Five thousand dollars.
(01:04):
Welcome to New Hampshire HasIssues.
I am your host, Liz Canada.
And actually, I'm interruptingmy own episode to jump in from
the future.
Because ever since Christina andI recorded this, and we recorded
in early June, a lot hasactually changed.
So when we talk in the episodeabout the current law, that's
actually the old law now.
Because on June 10, GovernorAyotte signed the bill that
(01:27):
expanded school vouchers, theeducation freedom accounts, to
everyone, regardless of how muchmoney they make.
And they might make a whole lotof money and still be eligible.
But instead of asking Christinato rerecord the whole dang
episode, I figured I would justjump in and say hi and thank you
for listening.
If you would like to support theshow, you can do so by clicking
on the link in the show notes.
(01:47):
And of course, if you have anyideas for upcoming episodes,
send me an email.
New Hampshire has issues atgmail.com.
All right, I'm going to head outand pass it back over to me.
Welcome to New Hampshire HasIssues, the podcast that dares
to ask, how much public taxmoney is the state willing to
give millionaires this year?
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
A
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
lot.
Sorry.
A lot.
Okay.
That's all you need to know,folks.
All right, Christina, what doyou think?
What's your tagline?
SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Oh, that's a good question.
Man, you know, I do bettertyping them and then reading
them.
I'm a typer.
Totally.
Yeah, I gotta type it out.
I'll wait.
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
You can just type it and I'll sit here and then you
can be like, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
It's called drafting.
Drafting, yes.
Yeah, I do.
Yeah, we do a lot of it.
I've heard it called a voucherscam because of just what it is
and And that feels fitting forwhat they are.
I've heard the fraud, the abuse,the misuse, the complete lack of
accountability.
The scam feels like it fits allof those things.
(02:50):
The podcast that dares to ask,
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
is it a scam?
Is it a fraud?
Is it an abuse?
What is it?
Okay.
Yeah, great.
(03:12):
in New Hampshire when it comesto school vouchers, question
mark, education freedomaccounts, question mark.
So thank you for being here,Christina Pretorius.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
This is so fun.
You and I worked together for afew years in the education
policy space back when we wroteexciting research articles on
things like school funding.
(03:34):
Oh, yes.
And we haven't worked togethersince these vouchers have passed
the legislature.
Like I haven't worked with yousince then.
So I'm hoping you can catchEducation Freedom Accounts I'm
(04:05):
like, amazing.
Who doesn't love freedom?
When I hear accounts, I have noopinion on the matter.
When their forces combine, theybecome education freedom
accounts.
But my simple question for youis, What are they?
What does that mean when you putthose three words together?
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Yeah, so education freedom accounts are what the
state of New Hampshire callstheir statewide school voucher
program.
So school vouchers aregovernment-funded accounts,
taxpayer-funded accounts thatpeople can use to pay for
private and religious schooltuition, for homeschooling
expenses, for, quote,educational expenses, anything
(04:41):
that's outside of the publicschool.
for school vouchers, educationfreedom accounts.
That's what the legislaturedecided to name them.
And some folks say it's aneducation freedom account.
It's not a school voucher.
It's a school voucher.
It's just like the technicalstatutory term for the school
voucher program.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Why do people make that argument that they're two
different things?
I see them have what I mightrefer to as a pretty big fit
that these are not.
They have a visceral reaction.
Yeah, they have a big reaction.
Yeah.
So what's their explanation andwhat is real?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
So So their explanation is that they're not
school vouchers because thestate isn't giving private
schools money directly, which iswhat a traditional voucher
program is.
Other states have had them for acouple of decades with very
mixed results.
Education freedom accounts are astyle of school vouchers, which
(05:37):
are under the education savingsaccount umbrella, notably still
a school voucher because it isstill government funding,
private schools, homeschools,education, other things.
With the Education FreedomAccount, parents get what's
effectively a debit card, andthen they can use that at Amazon
to pay for tuition, to pay forthe tutor down the street.
(05:57):
Whatever they choose andwhatever the third-party
administration company says isokay.
So there's a misunderstandingaround what a voucher is.
A voucher is actually a reallybig umbrella for a bunch of
different programs.
Education Freedom Accounts,Education Savings Accounts are
under that umbrella.
But the push, that reaction thatwe see from voucher advocates is
(06:18):
actually really intentionalbecause the general public,
voters, Americans, GraniteStaters, don't like school
vouchers.
They don't like them.
SPEAKER_01 (06:27):
It's a lot of different groups that are all
the same.
They're all the same group.
People,
SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
voters,
SPEAKER_01 (06:31):
Granite Staters, Americans.
People don't like schoolvouchers.
All these folks, they don't likethem.
SPEAKER_00 (06:35):
Vouchers are wildly unpopular.
And so what voucher advocates dois they try to flip and try to
find a little bit of nuance toseparate the education freedom
accounts from what areeffectively vouchers.
And so they can say, oh, it'snot vouchers.
It's not what you know you don'tlike.
This is a different program.
It's the same program.
It's messaging, really.
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
When people find out what an education freedom
account is when they're educatedabout it, they realize that it's
actually...
free money to wealthy folks tobe able to fund what is
effectively private school orprivate programming for their
young person and not to public
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
schools.
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
I mean, at the top of the thing,we said, hey, education, love
it, freedom, love it.
But there's a lot of polling.
There's a lot of data that wehave that show that using these
formal words, people are like,oh, I don't really know what
that is.
I'd like to learn more.
I like education.
I like freedom.
But the more people learn aboutschool vouchers, the more people
learn about education, freedomaccounts, those who are familiar
(07:36):
with it, are opposed.
They say, we don't want that.
We don't want the expansion.
We don't want the program.
We don't agree with this policydecision.
SPEAKER_01 (07:44):
So the program currently exists.
There's already educationfreedom accounts, school
vouchers in New Hampshire.
How long have they been aroundand who actually gets them?
What are the qualifications onemust have to get this little
debit
SPEAKER_00 (08:00):
card?
Yeah, sure.
So the school voucher programpassed as part of the state
budget in 2021.
So it began enrolling.
Yeah, that was a big year forunpopular policies to be shoved
into the state budget.
(08:34):
students that fall.
And so it's been, I think thisis year four, this will be year
five this next year.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:41):
And in 2021, to be clear for folks who are not
constantly thinking about NewHampshire policy all the time,
the budget in 2021 had theschool voucher program, it had
the ban on quote unquote,divisive concepts, which has
gone to court and the state, Ibelieve, Yeah, they have.
They have lost.
Yeah.
(09:01):
And the abortion ban that wassigned is also in that budget.
So that budget really had alittle bit of everything that
this podcast seeks to cover atsome point.
So it's been around for a fewyears.
Who actually qualifies foreducation freedom accounts?
SPEAKER_00 (09:15):
Yeah, so there are a handful of requirements.
If you want a school voucher,you have to have a child who is
of school age.
So between the ages of five and20, who has not graduated high
school, If you have a studentwith disabilities, there are
some laws around with theirgraduation, with how long they
(09:36):
can be in school and all ofthat.
But generally, as young as five,as late as, has not yet
graduated, has to be a NewHampshire resident.
And there is right now, undercurrent law, an income
requirement.
It is 350% of the U.S.
Department of Health and HumanServices Federal Poverty
Guideline, which sounds reallywonky, right?
(09:58):
It's a lot of words.
It's a lot of words.
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
A lot of words.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
Tell me what it really means.
(10:29):
school vouchers, it's three anda half times that poverty
guideline.
So saying federal povertyguideline makes you think, oh,
you know, it's only serving lowincome kids.
But in fact, it's three and ahalf times that rate.
So for a family of four, theincome level is right around
$110,000 per year.
Notably, though, the medianhousehold income in New
Hampshire is about$95,000 peryear.
(10:51):
So it is serving low andmoderate income families right
now, or they qualify, low andmoderate income families qualify
right now what the legislatureis trying to do is to eliminate
the income requirement so thatwealthy families can participate
and receive government fundingfor private schools, educational
expenses, ski trips, horsebackriding, Legos, you know,
(11:13):
whatever the...
Those are expensive.
We can all agree those thingsare
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
expensive things.
It's a matter of who should bepaying for them.
So to go back for a moment,because I think that that
percentage is really important,especially in comparison to
Yeah.
Yeah.
(11:50):
And so there are three differenttypes of lunches at school.
The one being you pay it fully.
You have a reduced cost oflunch.
And I don't remember what theexact cost is.
I think it's like a dollar orsomething like that.
And then there's free lunch thatif you make a certain amount of
money in your household orbelow, your kid thankfully gets
(12:10):
to eat school lunch for free.
What I'm hearing you say is forfree or reduced price lunch,
185% free.
or below that guideline.
is what qualifies a kiddo to beable to eat at school for a
lower cost than fully paying forit.
(12:31):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
universal school lunch programs.
It is one of the most impactfulpolicies that we can do, but
SPEAKER_01 (12:56):
lawmakers refuse to do it.
I don't know how many lawmakershave met kids, but they're
hungry.
They are.
All the time.
They are hungry.
All of the time.
And that is true for kids whohave families who have plenty of
ways to feed them multiple mealsa day, snacks and so forth.
They're hungry, let alone thekiddos who have families who are
(13:18):
working so hard and may havedifficulty paying for food.
meals and school meals and soforth.
So all the kids are hungry.
They're all hungry.
That's a great policy.
Kids are hungry, yeah.
All kids eat without having toworry about money.
SPEAKER_00 (13:30):
Surprise! Fun fact, when kids are fed, they learn
better.
I don't know if you knew that,but it's hard to learn when
you're hungry.
You heard it here first,
SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
folks.
SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
You heard
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
it here first.
Breaking news.
Breaking news.
When kids aren't hungry, theylearn more.
Hey, hey, hey.
And these school vouchers cannotbe used to pay for your school
lunches at school.
That's right.
At public school.
That's right.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
You can't be enrolled in your own public
school for the school voucher.
We are
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
going to do a lightning round soon of who gets
the money because I'm reallycurious to narrow down who
exactly gets this money.
So we haven't even talked abouthow much money this is actually.
That's right.
We're like 4,000 years into thisepisode and I haven't even asked
how much money is one of thesevouchers, one of these accounts.
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
It's an average of about$5,200 per child per year.
It's dependent on a number offactors So there's a, quote,
base amount that families wouldreceive, and that's right around
$4,200 per student per year.
If they qualify for the schoolmeal program, they get some
(14:35):
additional funding.
If their student qualifies forspecial education services or if
they have a documenteddisability, they get extra
funding.
If their student qualifies forEnglish language learner
services, they get extrafunding.
But the average is about$5,000.
What is
SPEAKER_01 (14:53):
the average cost of a year of private school tuition
in
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
New Hampshire?
(15:22):
high tuition schools in NewHampshire, some of your boarding
schools, those privateacademies, those kinds of things
that people think of.
There's a really wide range, butit's about$20,000 per year.
The premise,
SPEAKER_01 (15:35):
if I'm understanding correctly, the folks who want
these to continue or whatever itmight be, they say that it's a
sort of equalizer, that it helpsfolks who have lower incomes to
be able to access a school thatbetter fits their needs.
But I'm no math But if my mathis mathing right now, the
(15:55):
voucher is$5,000 and the schoolis$20,000.
So how are families who are notultra wealthy making up the
difference there?
That's right.
And I don't have this$15,000lying around myself, frankly.
Me neither.
I wish I did.
That'd be great.
That would be fantastic.
But I definitely do not.
So how does that work to getfrom the$5,000 to the$20,000?
(16:20):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
the reality is it just doesn't.
Right.
It just doesn't work.
I think that's just it's apopular talking point.
And it just doesn't shake outthat way for a number of
reasons.
One, it wouldn't that$5,000would not make up for the
private school tuition.
But on the flip side of that, wearen't seeing a mass exodus from
our public schools.
85% of children in NewHampshire, their families choose
(16:44):
their public schools andcontinue to choose their public
schools year after year, evenwith this voucher program in
place.
So even with this financialincentive to leave their public
schools.
Families like their publicschools.
They choose their publicschools.
They trust their teachers.
They trust their school leaders.
And so there is a talking pointof, hey, you know, this is a
great equalizer.
(17:05):
But what parents and familiesare telling us year after year
is we don't want a subsidy toleave our public schools.
We want you to invest in ourpublic schools to make them the
best that they can be becausethat's where we want.
That's what our choice is.
You know, vouchers don't give usschool choice because we're
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
Right.
What's another way we can saysubsidy?
I don't know how sexy that wordis for a regular person.
Like, how do we describe whatsubsidy actually is?
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great point.
When I say subsidy, I mean,taxpayer support.
So it's effectively it's, hey,taxpayers are now going to
support your private schooleducation, your kids' private
school education.
I think, yeah, the subsidy is avery wonky term.
Right,
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
right.
Yeah.
And that is, I'm going to sayit's a little odd to do that.
When I know from talking to allthe different guests that I've
(18:15):
spoken to, we have other fundingpriorities in our state.
We have things that are at acrisis point.
Burning fires.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
They are.
They, yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (18:25):
it is.
It's tough out there.
So the current rule program saysthat you have to have a kid
between ages five and 20, can'thave graduated high school,
can't be in a public school, andyou can use it for any except As
long as you, your family, yourhousehold is 350% or below.
That's right.
(18:46):
So...
I have heard maybe some changesare going to happen.
What's the buzz, Christina?
What are they proposing?
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
Well, the hot buzz is that Thursday, both
chambers...
We're recording this early June.
So the Senate is about to vote.
That's right.
So the Senate will be voting ona school voucher expansion bill.
So that would remove the incomeeligibility cap altogether.
So making anyone, regardless ofincome, qualify for school
(19:13):
vouchers.
The same day, the House will bevoting...
on a bill to expand schoolvouchers.
No income eligibility.
No income eligibility.
That's right.
All of them remove the incomeeligibility.
SPEAKER_01 (19:26):
So literally a family that makes so much money
that when I see them drivingtheir very fancy car that is
more than maybe how much myhouse is worth, they're able to
get money from the state of NewHampshire for their kid to go to
a boarding school in NewHampshire?
Is it allowed for boardingschools?
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Allowed for boarding schools, allowed for
out-of-state schools.
The school doesn't even have tobe in New Hampshire.
What?
The company doesn't have to bein New Hampshire.
It can be anywhere.
And there are a lot ofout-of-state vendors, approved
vendors on the list.
But yes, regardless of income,you could have an income of$10
million a year and still qualifyfor the money.
(20:09):
And in other states that don'thave income limits, that is the
case.
Wealthy families overwhelminglyreceive the bulk of the money in
voucher programs.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
My mind is absolutely boggled because the
income alone is really shockingbecause other programs that the
state helps to fund has afinancial requirement, you know,
means testing and so forth tosay like, you can only qualify
for this if you are at X amountof income on a monthly basis.
(20:42):
So this proposal by, it soundslike the majority in the state
house is to make that expansiveto literally ultra wealthy folks
would be able to get this money.
But now you're also saying itcould be to out-of-state
vendors, out-of-state companiesand organizations, which I am
very shocked by this.
I cannot believe that that is athing
SPEAKER_00 (21:01):
that is possible here.
It's a shocking fact that not alot of people recognize.
There are very few limitationsto what these can't be used for.
One of the prohibited uses is asingle person trampoline.
It's one of the onlyprohibitions
SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
So there's a long list of things you can use it,
but you cannot use it for asingle person trampoline.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
Why not?
That's a great question.
I'm fascinated by like...
Also, you can't use it forknives.
No knives.
It does not, however, sayanything about firearms.
And that had been prettyintentional because of
lawmakers' desire for firearmtraining for youth.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
I don't even know where to go next in the
questions, thinking about like,okay, we've made a short list of
things you can't use this for.
Knives.
Knives.
Single person trampoline.
That's the end of our list sofar.
We haven't come up with anyother things, so we say no to.
Yeah.
Wow.
And public school.
You can't use it for publicschool.
SPEAKER_00 (22:03):
Oh, so you can use it for public school if it is
outside of your residentdistrict public school.
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
Oh, tell me
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
more about that.
What does that mean?
So that means that you cannot beenrolled in your assigned
district public school.
So my kids attend the school inmy town.
If they cannot receive aneducation freedom account, a
school voucher, because theyattend our assigned school.
They also cannot attend acharter school full-time.
Those are the two public schoolsthat they can't attend.
(22:36):
But if they were to attend apublic school outside, the rules
are murky.
There's no prohibition againstthat.
If you go to a public schoolthat is outside of your
designated area, do you qualifyfor an EFA?
There are public schools whoare, quote, approved vendors
because there are EFA studentsThey may go to CTE classes,
(22:59):
career and technical educationcourses.
They may take an algebra courseat their local high school.
They can kind of buy pieces ofpublic school.
They kind of purchase them.
But that's a nuance that I haveto say I have been asking about
for years and I have not hadclarity on.
Do students
SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
go to other
SPEAKER_00 (23:17):
schools?
So there are actually a numberof pathways where students can
attend a different schooloutside of their their resident
district.
Manifest education hardship.
So, you know, if my child isjust is having a hard time in
the public school in my town orin my district, and I feel as
though they would be a betterfit at a different school for a
(23:39):
number of reasons.
You know, if they're beingbullied, if the school just
isn't meeting their needs, theycan actually be assigned to a
different public school.
I can say, hey, I want them togo here instead.
I work with the superintendentwith the school board and we
make that happen.
There are a And at the moment,school boards, superintendents,
(24:00):
they want to work with families.
They want to make sure thattheir kids are getting the best
education possible.
And so they make it happen thatway.
So would they then qualify?
That's actually unclear to me.
What else is unclear to me is inthe town that I live in, we
don't operate a high school.
We tuition out to two differenthigh schools.
So if my kid goes to one ofthose high schools, it's not my
(24:25):
resident district population.
I don't know.
And that hasn't been tested yet.
And it's been a big interestarea of mine of like, where are
the lines?
Because the law was reallywritten pretty ambiguously.
A
SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
lot of gray area.
A lot of gray area.
Question two, I had put out aquestion on social media to be
like, what are you interested inlearning about?
And had some folks ask like, howmany of the students who are in
(25:04):
it were already in privateschools when they first started
receiving this from the state?
So how many students, how manywere already in private school?
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
As of this spring, there are about 5,800 students
in New Hampshire who receivedschool vouchers at a cost of
about$30 million to the state ofNew Hampshire this year alone.
Notably, that has grown fromabout So in the course of this
school year, the program hasgrown by several hundred
students.
(25:33):
And we see this really upwardtrend of students participating,
the growth of the program.
About three quarters of themwere not enrolled in public
school.
They were already enrolled inprivate school.
They were already homeschooled.
So the vast majority of studentswho are participating weren't
enrolled in their publicschools.
(25:53):
They just, hey, we're already inprivate school.
We're already homeschooled.
We can get this money.
So, you know, why not?
It subsidizes the decisions thatwe've already made.
And so the vast majority ofstudents weren't enrolled in
public school.
They were already enrolled inprivate schools or were
homeschooled.
SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
What I'm hearing you say is 75 percent ish around 75
percent of the students and thefamilies who are receiving this
free government money to go toprivate school were already in
private school or already beinghomeschooled.
They were already doing thatthing.
And now the state has just giventhem money to essentially reward
(26:30):
them for not being in publicschool.
SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Yeah, they're paying them to keep doing private
school, keep homeschooling.
That's exactly right.
Other states do have, you know,you have to have been enrolled
in a public school for at leasta year in order to qualify
because when this programstarted, you know, school
vouchers aren't a New Hampshirething, right?
They are all over the country.
(26:54):
National interest groups are allover the country.
They're pushing them really hardin a number of states.
But some states do have thisrequirement where you have to
have been enrolled in a publicschool for a year, and then you
can qualify.
New Hampshire does not havethat.
Some lawmakers have tried to putthat requirement in and the
(27:15):
majority party for the pastseveral years has shut it down
time after time.
So it effectively right now doesact as, you're already in
private school, here's somemoney.
Interestingly, their privateschools have relied on EFAs,
Education Freedom Accounts,school vouchers, more and more
to supplement their ownscholarship packages.
(27:36):
So as this program has grown,it's becoming part of their
scholarship packages.
SPEAKER_01 (27:42):
How much would this new program proposal to allow
anyone to receive it, how muchwould that cost to the state of
New Hampshire, and therefore,like, regular people.
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Yeah, so there are about 20,000 kids in New
Hampshire who are enrolled inprivate school or who are home
educated right now.
And if all of them enrolled inthe school voucher program,
because they would all beeligible, it would cost the
state around$100 million peryear, which is a significant
amount of money.
(28:14):
That's a lot of money.
And
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
that's just the students who are already...
enrolled in private school orhomeschooling?
SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
That's right.
Yep.
So if all of them were to enrollin the school voucher program,
that's right.
All of the current privateschool students, current
home-educated students, if thisprogram...
There were no incomelimitations, and they could all
then opt into the program.
It would cost the state about$100 million per year.
And in other states that don'thave income requirements, that
(28:46):
does happen.
That sounds like a really fastgrowth and a huge, huge program,
and it is.
And we know that that happens.
That happened in Arizona.
Their school voucher program hascompletely broken their state
budget.
It happens in Florida.
It happens in a number of otherstates.
SPEAKER_01 (29:04):
But do they allow single person trampolines in
Arizona?
Is that the problem?
They haven't excluded that onething.
And so the state budget isbroken now because they didn't
say no single persontrampolines.
I guess the question is like,why wouldn't people apply?
Like it's free money.
You're being rewarded for notbeing in public school is what
(29:27):
it seems like.
Like it's like a high five fromthe government.
Here's$5,000 for not going toyour public school.
You did it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
Yeah.
That is...
something that we've tried totell lawmakers through this
entire process of you're openingthis up to Everyone, regardless
of income, this is what couldhappen.
And they come back and they say,oh, well, you know, not
everyone's going to take one.
But that feels like writing 10checks and hoping that only four
(29:54):
people cash those checks.
Like I'm praying that only fourpeople cash the checks because
that's all the money I have.
SPEAKER_01 (30:00):
If you find out that you can get$5,000 a year per
each of your kids that's inprivate school, like why
wouldn't you do that?
Because it's just there.
It's just available.
And I'm very confused.
Confused by why this is thething that is being pushed so
hard.
So
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
there are actually three interests that are pushing
these school vouchers.
SPEAKER_01 (30:23):
Give me the three.
Boom, boom, boom.
SPEAKER_00 (30:25):
I know.
It's a lot.
So there are Christian...
Okay.
We're coming in hot.
We're coming in hot.
(30:58):
going to Christian textbookcompanies, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
So a majority of the school vouchers right now or a
lot are going towards Christianschools?
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Yeah, a lot of the money is going to Christian
schools.
Yep, that's right.
So we have the religiousinterests, right?
Christian nationalists, numberone.
That's right.
Then we have folks who justdon't believe that government
should exist.
They see government and they seeit as a barrier to their lives.
(31:32):
So get government out ofschooling.
So it's a free state project.
There are a number of folks inpower right now in New Hampshire
who are free staters who justdon't believe in government, who
believe that government shouldget out of schools and that kind
of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (31:48):
They got in government so that they could
get government out.
That's right.
That's what happened.
Okay.
All right.
So we have Christiannationalists.
We have folks who don't thinkthe government should exist,
okay?
That's right.
It should exist for as long asthey can do things with it.
That's
SPEAKER_00 (32:04):
right.
And then the third, as we seeit, are people who want to make
money off of education.
You know, we see ed techcompanies.
There is a meteoric rise in edtech companies.
I can't tell you how manyFacebook ads I get of, you can
use an EFA to enroll in ouronline virtual school out of
Ohio, right?
(32:26):
Or, you know, use this for thelatest AI powered school there's
a company which is you know mykid can sit for two hours a day
with an AI bot and get all oftheir education so I can
purchase that so there are justand they call themselves
edupreneurs so they have a name
SPEAKER_01 (32:47):
too blended
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
word that's right so there are people who are looking
to make money off of education
SPEAKER_01 (32:56):
making$5,000 per student, theoretically.
Theoretically,
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
yeah.
It can be a big business.
SPEAKER_01 (33:02):
So religious groups, religious schools, folks who are
highly skeptical of thegovernment being part of
education in the first place,and then education tech folks.
And I do think we should beclear.
Ed tech is not necessarily a badthing.
There are lots of parts oftechnology and education that
(33:23):
are really great and important.
Yeah.
I don't know that having yourkids sit with an AI bot for two
hours is the best.
I don't want to judge.
I don't want to yuck anyone'syum if they love to have their
kid talk to AI.
But interesting to have then,again, it's about the public
money, the state money, thetaxpayer money going to pay for
(33:43):
a child to sit with an AI botfor two hours.
Yeah.
Give that edgerpreneur,edgerpreneur, that ed person,
get them money.
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
And so just to be clear, like I called out edtech
because I think there's justsuch a huge growth of those
kinds of companies and all ofthat.
But there are brick and mortarschools, particularly in other
states.
They enroll hundreds of studentsand then they collect the
taxpayer dollars.
They collect the out your moneyand then they shut down and they
(34:19):
leave those kids in a lurch theycollect the money and run
there's a lot of predatorycompanies that take that money
and they leave so it can berough it's This
SPEAKER_01 (34:31):
gets to the question of oversight.
So you have these organizations,companies, whether they're brick
and mortar, whether they'rethrough the comfort of your own
laptop camera, what oversightexists to make sure that all of
those things are on the up andup for what this program is
intended to do?
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
The New Hampshire Department of Education has
contracted all of thatresponsibility out to a
nonprofit called the Children'sScholarship Fund.
It is a New York-based companythat has a chapter here in New
Hampshire, and they doeverything related.
So they determine which studentsare eligible, how much money
that student receives, how thatfamily can use the dollars, and
(35:24):
they also determine, you know,there is a reporting requirement
where the kid either has to takea standardized test, the
statewide assessment or completea portfolio in order to continue
to receive the funding.
And the Children's ScholarshipFund is the entity that says,
yes, you did that.
Check the box.
You can continue to receive it.
The state doesn't get really anyof that data.
The data that they get is thisis how many students the
(35:46):
Children's Scholarship Fund sayswe need money for.
And they say, OK, boop, boop,boop.
And then they give them themoney.
There is very little oversight.
And it has created a lot ofwaves.
The state auditors are trying todo a performance audit of the
Education Freedom Accountprogram, the school voucher
program, and they can't getreally any data.
(36:08):
The Children's Scholarship Fundis a contractor of the state, so
the department says, yeah,they're a contractor, so we
can't ask for the data.
That's
SPEAKER_01 (36:17):
literally what a contractor is supposed to do?
That's how you become acontractor, is you have to
follow, okay, that'sinteresting.
That's an interesting argument.
SPEAKER_00 (36:26):
The Department of Education did a compliance
report in the 2020 2022 and 2023school years, and they audited
50 accounts, 50 voucheraccounts, and they found errors
in about 20% of them.
So we talked earlier about ifyou have a certain income level,
you qualify.
If you have a disability, youqualify.
(36:46):
They were giving money toparents that didn't actually
qualify for it.
And they only looked at 50accounts, and they found this
extremely high error rate.
And the department did not say,okay, well, we looked at 50, we
found this many errors.
Let's look at a broader thing.
SPEAKER_01 (37:04):
They just said, all right, case closed.
You know, I listen in on thesestate budget conversations and
things are being nickeled anddimed all over the place.
And this is kind of a huge shiftaway from we have to cut the
budget because we don't haveenough money is what we hear
from folks in Concord.
SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
On one of the latest floor votes, there was a state
rep who proposed an amendmentthat said, hey, we're not going
to expand the school voucherprogram.
We're not going to remove theincome limit until the state
auditors have done their auditof the program so that we can
better understand and make surethat this money is being used
appropriately.
And they did not pass thatamendment.
(37:42):
They rejected that amendment.
So time after time, we have seenlawmakers try to propose more
guardrails for the program toensure that this taxpayer money
is being used effectively isbeing used as intended.
And time after time, lawmakershave voted these down.
So they've had the opportunityto put these pieces in and they
(38:05):
time after time rejected.
It's wild.
It's just absolutely wild.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
Recent guests on this show have included...
Ken's Nicholson talking aboutchildcare and the absolute need
for funding to go towardschildcare.
And Nick Taylor talking abouthousing and how it is absolutely
critical that we need money forhousing.
And as far as I know, thatmoney's not happening.
Not happening.
(38:29):
But the priority is goingtowards this.
That's right.
Christina, I miss working withyou.
I
SPEAKER_00 (38:34):
miss working with you, too.
SPEAKER_01 (38:35):
But I will say that this bums me out.
I'm not going to lie.
This is a pretty big bummer,Christina.
All this
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
stuff is going on.
It is.
It is.
I have to say, this is the issuearea that I've been following
most in all of my years ineducation policy, and it's an
upsetting one.
It's sad.
SPEAKER_01 (38:54):
So listeners, if you're feeling down, join us,
because we are too.
Once again, happy pride.
Are you feeling happy?
Because have I got news for you.
Have I got news for you.
It's called Education FreedomAccounts.
(39:19):
a lightning round.
Great.
Yes, no questions.
I want to know if theseindividuals are able to get
school vouchers in the newproposal.
If this new one passes, yes orno?
Families who are already inprivate schools.
Yes.
Private school students who'venever been in public school.
Yes.
Religious school students.
(39:40):
Yes.
Families who make over a milliondollars.
They will.
Yes.
If this passes, yes.
Families who make five milliondollars.
Yes.
Yes.
This new version.
Someone who's only ever beenhomeschooled.
Yes.
Someone who's at a boardingschool in New Hampshire.
Yes.
Public school student.
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (39:59):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (39:59):
Not in their resident district school.
SPEAKER_01 (40:01):
Public school student who qualifies for free
or reduced lunch.
SPEAKER_00 (40:05):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (40:06):
No.
No.
Okay.
Thank you for doing my firstever lightning round.
SPEAKER_00 (40:09):
The change is literally just allowing wealthy
people to receive taxpayerdollars to fund private and
religious education andhomeschooling.
That's the only change.
Everything else is alreadythere.
SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
Okay.
Speaking of school choice,that's certainly a choice that
we're making here in NewHampshire.
That's definitely a choice.
And these choices already exist.
You can already choose to go toprivate school.
You can already choose tohomeschool your kiddo.
You can already choose to go toa public school.
The question is, who pays forthat?
(40:43):
And should it be public taxdollars going to Christian
schools?
Commissioner Edelblut is fascinating because
he has no background experienceprior to being the commissioner
in public school, as far as Iknow.
SPEAKER_00 (00:07):
That's very true.
Yeah, he homeschooled all of hischildren.
His family homeschooled hischildren.
He was he did not come fromeducation whatsoever.
I think he even said before hetook the job, he had never even
walked into a public school, ifI remember correctly.
SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
And now he's been the commissioner.
He's been in charge of educationin New Hampshire, which is kind
of like making me thecommissioner of heterosexuality.
It's like I have no backgroundon the matter, but I've got a
lot of I've got a lot offeedback and I want to make a
lot of changes.
Got a lot of thoughts on thematter.
(00:43):
It's fine.
I would also give five thousanddollars to gay people.
Happy Pride Month.
Here you go.
Five thousand dollars.
(01:04):
Welcome to New Hampshire HasIssues.
I am your host, Liz Canada.
And actually, I'm interruptingmy own episode to jump in from
the future.
Because ever since Christina andI recorded this, and we recorded
in early June, a lot hasactually changed.
So when we talk in the episodeabout the current law, that's
actually the old law now.
Because on June 10, GovernorAyotte signed the bill that
(01:27):
expanded school vouchers, theeducation freedom accounts, to
everyone, regardless of how muchmoney they make.
And they might make a whole lotof money and still be eligible.
But instead of asking Christinato rerecord the whole dang
episode, I figured I would justjump in and say hi and thank you
for listening.
If you would like to support theshow, you can do so by clicking
on the link in the show notes.
(01:47):
And of course, if you have anyideas for upcoming episodes,
send me an email.
New Hampshire has issues atgmail.com.
All right, I'm going to head outand pass it back over to me.
Welcome to New Hampshire HasIssues, the podcast that dares
to ask, how much public taxmoney is the state willing to
give millionaires this year?
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
A
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
lot.
Sorry.
A lot.
Okay.
That's all you need to know,folks.
All right, Christina, what doyou think?
What's your tagline?
SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Oh, that's a good question.
Man, you know, I do bettertyping them and then reading
them.
I'm a typer.
Totally.
Yeah, I gotta type it out.
I'll wait.
SPEAKER_01 (02:25):
You can just type it and I'll sit here and then you
can be like, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
It's called drafting.
Drafting, yes.
Yeah, I do.
Yeah, we do a lot of it.
I've heard it called a voucherscam because of just what it is
and And that feels fitting forwhat they are.
I've heard the fraud, the abuse,the misuse, the complete lack of
accountability.
The scam feels like it fits allof those things.
(02:50):
The podcast that dares to ask,
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
is it a scam?
Is it a fraud?
Is it an abuse?
What is it?
Okay.
Yeah, great.
(03:12):
in New Hampshire when it comesto school vouchers, question
mark, education freedomaccounts, question mark.
So thank you for being here,Christina Pretorius.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
This is so fun.
You and I worked together for afew years in the education
policy space back when we wroteexciting research articles on
things like school funding.
(03:34):
Oh, yes.
And we haven't worked togethersince these vouchers have passed
the legislature.
Like I haven't worked with yousince then.
So I'm hoping you can catchEducation Freedom Accounts I'm
(04:05):
like, amazing.
Who doesn't love freedom?
When I hear accounts, I have noopinion on the matter.
When their forces combine, theybecome education freedom
accounts.
But my simple question for youis, What are they?
What does that mean when you putthose three words together?
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Yeah, so education freedom accounts are what the
state of New Hampshire callstheir statewide school voucher
program.
So school vouchers aregovernment-funded accounts,
taxpayer-funded accounts thatpeople can use to pay for
private and religious schooltuition, for homeschooling
expenses, for, quote,educational expenses, anything
(04:41):
that's outside of the publicschool.
for school vouchers, educationfreedom accounts.
That's what the legislaturedecided to name them.
And some folks say it's aneducation freedom account.
It's not a school voucher.
It's a school voucher.
It's just like the technicalstatutory term for the school
voucher program.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Why do people make that argument that they're two
different things?
I see them have what I mightrefer to as a pretty big fit
that these are not.
They have a visceral reaction.
Yeah, they have a big reaction.
Yeah.
So what's their explanation andwhat is real?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
So So their explanation is that they're not
school vouchers because thestate isn't giving private
schools money directly, which iswhat a traditional voucher
program is.
Other states have had them for acouple of decades with very
mixed results.
Education freedom accounts are astyle of school vouchers, which
(05:37):
are under the education savingsaccount umbrella, notably still
a school voucher because it isstill government funding,
private schools, homeschools,education, other things.
With the Education FreedomAccount, parents get what's
effectively a debit card, andthen they can use that at Amazon
to pay for tuition, to pay forthe tutor down the street.
(05:57):
Whatever they choose andwhatever the third-party
administration company says isokay.
So there's a misunderstandingaround what a voucher is.
A voucher is actually a reallybig umbrella for a bunch of
different programs.
Education Freedom Accounts,Education Savings Accounts are
under that umbrella.
But the push, that reaction thatwe see from voucher advocates is
(06:18):
actually really intentionalbecause the general public,
voters, Americans, GraniteStaters, don't like school
vouchers.
They don't like them.
SPEAKER_01 (06:27):
It's a lot of different groups that are all
the same.
They're all the same group.
People,
SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
voters,
SPEAKER_01 (06:31):
Granite Staters, Americans.
People don't like schoolvouchers.
All these folks, they don't likethem.
SPEAKER_00 (06:35):
Vouchers are wildly unpopular.
And so what voucher advocates dois they try to flip and try to
find a little bit of nuance toseparate the education freedom
accounts from what areeffectively vouchers.
And so they can say, oh, it'snot vouchers.
It's not what you know you don'tlike.
This is a different program.
It's the same program.
It's messaging, really.
SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
When people find out what an education freedom
account is when they're educatedabout it, they realize that it's
actually...
free money to wealthy folks tobe able to fund what is
effectively private school orprivate programming for their
young person and not to public
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
schools.
That's exactly right.
Yeah.
I mean, at the top of the thing,we said, hey, education, love
it, freedom, love it.
But there's a lot of polling.
There's a lot of data that wehave that show that using these
formal words, people are like,oh, I don't really know what
that is.
I'd like to learn more.
I like education.
I like freedom.
But the more people learn aboutschool vouchers, the more people
learn about education, freedomaccounts, those who are familiar
(07:36):
with it, are opposed.
They say, we don't want that.
We don't want the expansion.
We don't want the program.
We don't agree with this policydecision.
SPEAKER_01 (07:44):
So the program currently exists.
There's already educationfreedom accounts, school
vouchers in New Hampshire.
How long have they been aroundand who actually gets them?
What are the qualifications onemust have to get this little
debit
SPEAKER_00 (08:00):
card?
Yeah, sure.
So the school voucher programpassed as part of the state
budget in 2021.
So it began enrolling.
Yeah, that was a big year forunpopular policies to be shoved
into the state budget.
(08:34):
students that fall.
And so it's been, I think thisis year four, this will be year
five this next year.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:41):
And in 2021, to be clear for folks who are not
constantly thinking about NewHampshire policy all the time,
the budget in 2021 had theschool voucher program, it had
the ban on quote unquote,divisive concepts, which has
gone to court and the state, Ibelieve, Yeah, they have.
They have lost.
Yeah.
(09:01):
And the abortion ban that wassigned is also in that budget.
So that budget really had alittle bit of everything that
this podcast seeks to cover atsome point.
So it's been around for a fewyears.
Who actually qualifies foreducation freedom accounts?
SPEAKER_00 (09:15):
Yeah, so there are a handful of requirements.
If you want a school voucher,you have to have a child who is
of school age.
So between the ages of five and20, who has not graduated high
school, If you have a studentwith disabilities, there are
some laws around with theirgraduation, with how long they
(09:36):
can be in school and all ofthat.
But generally, as young as five,as late as, has not yet
graduated, has to be a NewHampshire resident.
And there is right now, undercurrent law, an income
requirement.
It is 350% of the U.S.
Department of Health and HumanServices Federal Poverty
Guideline, which sounds reallywonky, right?
(09:58):
It's a lot of words.
It's a lot of words.
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
A lot of words.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
Tell me what it really means.
(10:29):
school vouchers, it's three anda half times that poverty
guideline.
So saying federal povertyguideline makes you think, oh,
you know, it's only serving lowincome kids.
But in fact, it's three and ahalf times that rate.
So for a family of four, theincome level is right around
$110,000 per year.
Notably, though, the medianhousehold income in New
Hampshire is about$95,000 peryear.
(10:51):
So it is serving low andmoderate income families right
now, or they qualify, low andmoderate income families qualify
right now what the legislatureis trying to do is to eliminate
the income requirement so thatwealthy families can participate
and receive government fundingfor private schools, educational
expenses, ski trips, horsebackriding, Legos, you know,
(11:13):
whatever the...
Those are expensive.
We can all agree those thingsare
SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
expensive things.
It's a matter of who should bepaying for them.
So to go back for a moment,because I think that that
percentage is really important,especially in comparison to
Yeah.
Yeah.
(11:50):
And so there are three differenttypes of lunches at school.
The one being you pay it fully.
You have a reduced cost oflunch.
And I don't remember what theexact cost is.
I think it's like a dollar orsomething like that.
And then there's free lunch thatif you make a certain amount of
money in your household orbelow, your kid thankfully gets
(12:10):
to eat school lunch for free.
What I'm hearing you say is forfree or reduced price lunch,
185% free.
or below that guideline.
is what qualifies a kiddo to beable to eat at school for a
lower cost than fully paying forit.
(12:31):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (12:50):
universal school lunch programs.
It is one of the most impactfulpolicies that we can do, but
SPEAKER_01 (12:56):
lawmakers refuse to do it.
I don't know how many lawmakershave met kids, but they're
hungry.
They are.
All the time.
They are hungry.
All of the time.
And that is true for kids whohave families who have plenty of
ways to feed them multiple mealsa day, snacks and so forth.
They're hungry, let alone thekiddos who have families who are
(13:18):
working so hard and may havedifficulty paying for food.
meals and school meals and soforth.
So all the kids are hungry.
They're all hungry.
That's a great policy.
Kids are hungry, yeah.
All kids eat without having toworry about money.
SPEAKER_00 (13:30):
Surprise! Fun fact, when kids are fed, they learn
better.
I don't know if you knew that,but it's hard to learn when
you're hungry.
You heard it here first,
SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
folks.
SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
You heard
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
it here first.
Breaking news.
Breaking news.
When kids aren't hungry, theylearn more.
Hey, hey, hey.
And these school vouchers cannotbe used to pay for your school
lunches at school.
That's right.
At public school.
That's right.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
You can't be enrolled in your own public
school for the school voucher.
We are
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
going to do a lightning round soon of who gets
the money because I'm reallycurious to narrow down who
exactly gets this money.
So we haven't even talked abouthow much money this is actually.
That's right.
We're like 4,000 years into thisepisode and I haven't even asked
how much money is one of thesevouchers, one of these accounts.
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
It's an average of about$5,200 per child per year.
It's dependent on a number offactors So there's a, quote,
base amount that families wouldreceive, and that's right around
$4,200 per student per year.
If they qualify for the schoolmeal program, they get some
(14:35):
additional funding.
If their student qualifies forspecial education services or if
they have a documenteddisability, they get extra
funding.
If their student qualifies forEnglish language learner
services, they get extrafunding.
But the average is about$5,000.
What is
SPEAKER_01 (14:53):
the average cost of a year of private school tuition
in
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
New Hampshire?
(15:22):
high tuition schools in NewHampshire, some of your boarding
schools, those privateacademies, those kinds of things
that people think of.
There's a really wide range, butit's about$20,000 per year.
The premise,
SPEAKER_01 (15:35):
if I'm understanding correctly, the folks who want
these to continue or whatever itmight be, they say that it's a
sort of equalizer, that it helpsfolks who have lower incomes to
be able to access a school thatbetter fits their needs.
But I'm no math But if my mathis mathing right now, the
(15:55):
voucher is$5,000 and the schoolis$20,000.
So how are families who are notultra wealthy making up the
difference there?
That's right.
And I don't have this$15,000lying around myself, frankly.
Me neither.
I wish I did.
That'd be great.
That would be fantastic.
But I definitely do not.
So how does that work to getfrom the$5,000 to the$20,000?
(16:20):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
the reality is it just doesn't.
Right.
It just doesn't work.
I think that's just it's apopular talking point.
And it just doesn't shake outthat way for a number of
reasons.
One, it wouldn't that$5,000would not make up for the
private school tuition.
But on the flip side of that, wearen't seeing a mass exodus from
our public schools.
85% of children in NewHampshire, their families choose
(16:44):
their public schools andcontinue to choose their public
schools year after year, evenwith this voucher program in
place.
So even with this financialincentive to leave their public
schools.
Families like their publicschools.
They choose their publicschools.
They trust their teachers.
They trust their school leaders.
And so there is a talking pointof, hey, you know, this is a
great equalizer.
(17:05):
But what parents and familiesare telling us year after year
is we don't want a subsidy toleave our public schools.
We want you to invest in ourpublic schools to make them the
best that they can be becausethat's where we want.
That's what our choice is.
You know, vouchers don't give usschool choice because we're
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
Right.
What's another way we can saysubsidy?
I don't know how sexy that wordis for a regular person.
Like, how do we describe whatsubsidy actually is?
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great point.
When I say subsidy, I mean,taxpayer support.
So it's effectively it's, hey,taxpayers are now going to
support your private schooleducation, your kids' private
school education.
I think, yeah, the subsidy is avery wonky term.
Right,
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
right.
Yeah.
And that is, I'm going to sayit's a little odd to do that.
When I know from talking to allthe different guests that I've
(18:15):
spoken to, we have other fundingpriorities in our state.
We have things that are at acrisis point.
Burning fires.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
They are.
They, yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (18:25):
it is.
It's tough out there.
So the current rule program saysthat you have to have a kid
between ages five and 20, can'thave graduated high school,
can't be in a public school, andyou can use it for any except As
long as you, your family, yourhousehold is 350% or below.
That's right.
(18:46):
So...
I have heard maybe some changesare going to happen.
What's the buzz, Christina?
What are they proposing?
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
Well, the hot buzz is that Thursday, both
chambers...
We're recording this early June.
So the Senate is about to vote.
That's right.
So the Senate will be voting ona school voucher expansion bill.
So that would remove the incomeeligibility cap altogether.
So making anyone, regardless ofincome, qualify for school
(19:13):
vouchers.
The same day, the House will bevoting...
on a bill to expand schoolvouchers.
No income eligibility.
No income eligibility.
That's right.
All of them remove the incomeeligibility.
SPEAKER_01 (19:26):
So literally a family that makes so much money
that when I see them drivingtheir very fancy car that is
more than maybe how much myhouse is worth, they're able to
get money from the state of NewHampshire for their kid to go to
a boarding school in NewHampshire?
Is it allowed for boardingschools?
SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Allowed for boarding schools, allowed for
out-of-state schools.
The school doesn't even have tobe in New Hampshire.
What?
The company doesn't have to bein New Hampshire.
It can be anywhere.
And there are a lot ofout-of-state vendors, approved
vendors on the list.
But yes, regardless of income,you could have an income of$10
million a year and still qualifyfor the money.
(20:09):
And in other states that don'thave income limits, that is the
case.
Wealthy families overwhelminglyreceive the bulk of the money in
voucher programs.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
My mind is absolutely boggled because the
income alone is really shockingbecause other programs that the
state helps to fund has afinancial requirement, you know,
means testing and so forth tosay like, you can only qualify
for this if you are at X amountof income on a monthly basis.
(20:42):
So this proposal by, it soundslike the majority in the state
house is to make that expansiveto literally ultra wealthy folks
would be able to get this money.
But now you're also saying itcould be to out-of-state
vendors, out-of-state companiesand organizations, which I am
very shocked by this.
I cannot believe that that is athing
SPEAKER_00 (21:01):
that is possible here.
It's a shocking fact that not alot of people recognize.
There are very few limitationsto what these can't be used for.
One of the prohibited uses is asingle person trampoline.
It's one of the onlyprohibitions
SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
So there's a long list of things you can use it,
but you cannot use it for asingle person trampoline.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
Why not?
That's a great question.
I'm fascinated by like...
Also, you can't use it forknives.
No knives.
It does not, however, sayanything about firearms.
And that had been prettyintentional because of
lawmakers' desire for firearmtraining for youth.
SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
I don't even know where to go next in the
questions, thinking about like,okay, we've made a short list of
things you can't use this for.
Knives.
Knives.
Single person trampoline.
That's the end of our list sofar.
We haven't come up with anyother things, so we say no to.
Yeah.
Wow.
And public school.
You can't use it for publicschool.
SPEAKER_00 (22:03):
Oh, so you can use it for public school if it is
outside of your residentdistrict public school.
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
Oh, tell me
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
more about that.
What does that mean?
So that means that you cannot beenrolled in your assigned
district public school.
So my kids attend the school inmy town.
If they cannot receive aneducation freedom account, a
school voucher, because theyattend our assigned school.
They also cannot attend acharter school full-time.
Those are the two public schoolsthat they can't attend.
(22:36):
But if they were to attend apublic school outside, the rules
are murky.
There's no prohibition againstthat.
If you go to a public schoolthat is outside of your
designated area, do you qualifyfor an EFA?
There are public schools whoare, quote, approved vendors
because there are EFA studentsThey may go to CTE classes,
(22:59):
career and technical educationcourses.
They may take an algebra courseat their local high school.
They can kind of buy pieces ofpublic school.
They kind of purchase them.
But that's a nuance that I haveto say I have been asking about
for years and I have not hadclarity on.
Do students
SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
go to other
SPEAKER_00 (23:17):
schools?
So there are actually a numberof pathways where students can
attend a different schooloutside of their their resident
district.
Manifest education hardship.
So, you know, if my child isjust is having a hard time in
the public school in my town orin my district, and I feel as
though they would be a betterfit at a different school for a
(23:39):
number of reasons.
You know, if they're beingbullied, if the school just
isn't meeting their needs, theycan actually be assigned to a
different public school.
I can say, hey, I want them togo here instead.
I work with the superintendentwith the school board and we
make that happen.
There are a And at the moment,school boards, superintendents,
(24:00):
they want to work with families.
They want to make sure thattheir kids are getting the best
education possible.
And so they make it happen thatway.
So would they then qualify?
That's actually unclear to me.
What else is unclear to me is inthe town that I live in, we
don't operate a high school.
We tuition out to two differenthigh schools.
So if my kid goes to one ofthose high schools, it's not my
(24:25):
resident district population.
I don't know.
And that hasn't been tested yet.
And it's been a big interestarea of mine of like, where are
the lines?
Because the law was reallywritten pretty ambiguously.
A
SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
lot of gray area.
A lot of gray area.
Question two, I had put out aquestion on social media to be
like, what are you interested inlearning about?
And had some folks ask like, howmany of the students who are in
(25:04):
it were already in privateschools when they first started
receiving this from the state?
So how many students, how manywere already in private school?
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
As of this spring, there are about 5,800 students
in New Hampshire who receivedschool vouchers at a cost of
about$30 million to the state ofNew Hampshire this year alone.
Notably, that has grown fromabout So in the course of this
school year, the program hasgrown by several hundred
students.
(25:33):
And we see this really upwardtrend of students participating,
the growth of the program.
About three quarters of themwere not enrolled in public
school.
They were already enrolled inprivate school.
They were already homeschooled.
So the vast majority of studentswho are participating weren't
enrolled in their publicschools.
(25:53):
They just, hey, we're already inprivate school.
We're already homeschooled.
We can get this money.
So, you know, why not?
It subsidizes the decisions thatwe've already made.
And so the vast majority ofstudents weren't enrolled in
public school.
They were already enrolled inprivate schools or were
homeschooled.
SPEAKER_01 (26:10):
What I'm hearing you say is 75 percent ish around 75
percent of the students and thefamilies who are receiving this
free government money to go toprivate school were already in
private school or already beinghomeschooled.
They were already doing thatthing.
And now the state has just giventhem money to essentially reward
(26:30):
them for not being in publicschool.
SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Yeah, they're paying them to keep doing private
school, keep homeschooling.
That's exactly right.
Other states do have, you know,you have to have been enrolled
in a public school for at leasta year in order to qualify
because when this programstarted, you know, school
vouchers aren't a New Hampshirething, right?
They are all over the country.
(26:54):
National interest groups are allover the country.
They're pushing them really hardin a number of states.
But some states do have thisrequirement where you have to
have been enrolled in a publicschool for a year, and then you
can qualify.
New Hampshire does not havethat.
Some lawmakers have tried to putthat requirement in and the
(27:15):
majority party for the pastseveral years has shut it down
time after time.
So it effectively right now doesact as, you're already in
private school, here's somemoney.
Interestingly, their privateschools have relied on EFAs,
Education Freedom Accounts,school vouchers, more and more
to supplement their ownscholarship packages.
(27:36):
So as this program has grown,it's becoming part of their
scholarship packages.
SPEAKER_01 (27:42):
How much would this new program proposal to allow
anyone to receive it, how muchwould that cost to the state of
New Hampshire, and therefore,like, regular people.
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Yeah, so there are about 20,000 kids in New
Hampshire who are enrolled inprivate school or who are home
educated right now.
And if all of them enrolled inthe school voucher program,
because they would all beeligible, it would cost the
state around$100 million peryear, which is a significant
amount of money.
(28:14):
That's a lot of money.
And
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
that's just the students who are already...
enrolled in private school orhomeschooling?
SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
That's right.
Yep.
So if all of them were to enrollin the school voucher program,
that's right.
All of the current privateschool students, current
home-educated students, if thisprogram...
There were no incomelimitations, and they could all
then opt into the program.
It would cost the state about$100 million per year.
And in other states that don'thave income requirements, that
(28:46):
does happen.
That sounds like a really fastgrowth and a huge, huge program,
and it is.
And we know that that happens.
That happened in Arizona.
Their school voucher program hascompletely broken their state
budget.
It happens in Florida.
It happens in a number of otherstates.
SPEAKER_01 (29:04):
But do they allow single person trampolines in
Arizona?
Is that the problem?
They haven't excluded that onething.
And so the state budget isbroken now because they didn't
say no single persontrampolines.
I guess the question is like,why wouldn't people apply?
Like it's free money.
You're being rewarded for notbeing in public school is what
(29:27):
it seems like.
Like it's like a high five fromthe government.
Here's$5,000 for not going toyour public school.
You did it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
Yeah.
That is...
something that we've tried totell lawmakers through this
entire process of you're openingthis up to Everyone, regardless
of income, this is what couldhappen.
And they come back and they say,oh, well, you know, not
everyone's going to take one.
But that feels like writing 10checks and hoping that only four
(29:54):
people cash those checks.
Like I'm praying that only fourpeople cash the checks because
that's all the money I have.
SPEAKER_01 (30:00):
If you find out that you can get$5,000 a year per
each of your kids that's inprivate school, like why
wouldn't you do that?
Because it's just there.
It's just available.
And I'm very confused.
Confused by why this is thething that is being pushed so
hard.
So
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
there are actually three interests that are pushing
these school vouchers.
SPEAKER_01 (30:23):
Give me the three.
Boom, boom, boom.
SPEAKER_00 (30:25):
I know.
It's a lot.
So there are Christian...
Okay.
We're coming in hot.
We're coming in hot.
(30:58):
going to Christian textbookcompanies, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
So a majority of the school vouchers right now or a
lot are going towards Christianschools?
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Yeah, a lot of the money is going to Christian
schools.
Yep, that's right.
So we have the religiousinterests, right?
Christian nationalists, numberone.
That's right.
Then we have folks who justdon't believe that government
should exist.
They see government and they seeit as a barrier to their lives.
(31:32):
So get government out ofschooling.
So it's a free state project.
There are a number of folks inpower right now in New Hampshire
who are free staters who justdon't believe in government, who
believe that government shouldget out of schools and that kind
of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (31:48):
They got in government so that they could
get government out.
That's right.
That's what happened.
Okay.
All right.
So we have Christiannationalists.
We have folks who don't thinkthe government should exist,
okay?
That's right.
It should exist for as long asthey can do things with it.
That's
SPEAKER_00 (32:04):
right.
And then the third, as we seeit, are people who want to make
money off of education.
You know, we see ed techcompanies.
There is a meteoric rise in edtech companies.
I can't tell you how manyFacebook ads I get of, you can
use an EFA to enroll in ouronline virtual school out of
Ohio, right?
(32:26):
Or, you know, use this for thelatest AI powered school there's
a company which is you know mykid can sit for two hours a day
with an AI bot and get all oftheir education so I can
purchase that so there are justand they call themselves
edupreneurs so they have a name
SPEAKER_01 (32:47):
too blended
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
word that's right so there are people who are looking
to make money off of education
SPEAKER_01 (32:56):
making$5,000 per student, theoretically.
Theoretically,
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
yeah.
It can be a big business.
SPEAKER_01 (33:02):
So religious groups, religious schools, folks who are
highly skeptical of thegovernment being part of
education in the first place,and then education tech folks.
And I do think we should beclear.
Ed tech is not necessarily a badthing.
There are lots of parts oftechnology and education that
(33:23):
are really great and important.
Yeah.
I don't know that having yourkids sit with an AI bot for two
hours is the best.
I don't want to judge.
I don't want to yuck anyone'syum if they love to have their
kid talk to AI.
But interesting to have then,again, it's about the public
money, the state money, thetaxpayer money going to pay for
(33:43):
a child to sit with an AI botfor two hours.
Yeah.
Give that edgerpreneur,edgerpreneur, that ed person,
get them money.
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
And so just to be clear, like I called out edtech
because I think there's justsuch a huge growth of those
kinds of companies and all ofthat.
But there are brick and mortarschools, particularly in other
states.
They enroll hundreds of studentsand then they collect the
taxpayer dollars.
They collect the out your moneyand then they shut down and they
(34:19):
leave those kids in a lurch theycollect the money and run
there's a lot of predatorycompanies that take that money
and they leave so it can berough it's This
SPEAKER_01 (34:31):
gets to the question of oversight.
So you have these organizations,companies, whether they're brick
and mortar, whether they'rethrough the comfort of your own
laptop camera, what oversightexists to make sure that all of
those things are on the up andup for what this program is
intended to do?
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
The New Hampshire Department of Education has
contracted all of thatresponsibility out to a
nonprofit called the Children'sScholarship Fund.
It is a New York-based companythat has a chapter here in New
Hampshire, and they doeverything related.
So they determine which studentsare eligible, how much money
that student receives, how thatfamily can use the dollars, and
(35:24):
they also determine, you know,there is a reporting requirement
where the kid either has to takea standardized test, the
statewide assessment or completea portfolio in order to continue
to receive the funding.
And the Children's ScholarshipFund is the entity that says,
yes, you did that.
Check the box.
You can continue to receive it.
The state doesn't get really anyof that data.
The data that they get is thisis how many students the
(35:46):
Children's Scholarship Fund sayswe need money for.
And they say, OK, boop, boop,boop.
And then they give them themoney.
There is very little oversight.
And it has created a lot ofwaves.
The state auditors are trying todo a performance audit of the
Education Freedom Accountprogram, the school voucher
program, and they can't getreally any data.
(36:08):
The Children's Scholarship Fundis a contractor of the state, so
the department says, yeah,they're a contractor, so we
can't ask for the data.
That's
SPEAKER_01 (36:17):
literally what a contractor is supposed to do?
That's how you become acontractor, is you have to
follow, okay, that'sinteresting.
That's an interesting argument.
SPEAKER_00 (36:26):
The Department of Education did a compliance
report in the 2020 2022 and 2023school years, and they audited
50 accounts, 50 voucheraccounts, and they found errors
in about 20% of them.
So we talked earlier about ifyou have a certain income level,
you qualify.
If you have a disability, youqualify.
(36:46):
They were giving money toparents that didn't actually
qualify for it.
And they only looked at 50accounts, and they found this
extremely high error rate.
And the department did not say,okay, well, we looked at 50, we
found this many errors.
Let's look at a broader thing.
SPEAKER_01 (37:04):
They just said, all right, case closed.
You know, I listen in on thesestate budget conversations and
things are being nickeled anddimed all over the place.
And this is kind of a huge shiftaway from we have to cut the
budget because we don't haveenough money is what we hear
from folks in Concord.
SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
On one of the latest floor votes, there was a state
rep who proposed an amendmentthat said, hey, we're not going
to expand the school voucherprogram.
We're not going to remove theincome limit until the state
auditors have done their auditof the program so that we can
better understand and make surethat this money is being used
appropriately.
And they did not pass thatamendment.
(37:42):
They rejected that amendment.
So time after time, we have seenlawmakers try to propose more
guardrails for the program toensure that this taxpayer money
is being used effectively isbeing used as intended.
And time after time, lawmakershave voted these down.
So they've had the opportunityto put these pieces in and they
(38:05):
time after time rejected.
It's wild.
It's just absolutely wild.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
Recent guests on this show have included...
Ken's Nicholson talking aboutchildcare and the absolute need
for funding to go towardschildcare.
And Nick Taylor talking abouthousing and how it is absolutely
critical that we need money forhousing.
And as far as I know, thatmoney's not happening.
Not happening.
(38:29):
But the priority is goingtowards this.
That's right.
Christina, I miss working withyou.
I
SPEAKER_00 (38:34):
miss working with you, too.
SPEAKER_01 (38:35):
But I will say that this bums me out.
I'm not going to lie.
This is a pretty big bummer,Christina.
All this
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
stuff is going on.
It is.
It is.
I have to say, this is the issuearea that I've been following
most in all of my years ineducation policy, and it's an
upsetting one.
It's sad.
SPEAKER_01 (38:54):
So listeners, if you're feeling down, join us,
because we are too.
Once again, happy pride.
Are you feeling happy?
Because have I got news for you.
Have I got news for you.
It's called Education FreedomAccounts.
(39:19):
a lightning round.
Great.
Yes, no questions.
I want to know if theseindividuals are able to get
school vouchers in the newproposal.
If this new one passes, yes orno?
Families who are already inprivate schools.
Yes.
Private school students who'venever been in public school.
Yes.
Religious school students.
(39:40):
Yes.
Families who make over a milliondollars.
They will.
Yes.
If this passes, yes.
Families who make five milliondollars.
Yes.
Yes.
This new version.
Someone who's only ever beenhomeschooled.
Yes.
Someone who's at a boardingschool in New Hampshire.
Yes.
Public school student.
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (39:59):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (39:59):
Not in their resident district school.
SPEAKER_01 (40:01):
Public school student who qualifies for free
or reduced lunch.
SPEAKER_00 (40:05):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (40:06):
No.
No.
Okay.
Thank you for doing my firstever lightning round.
SPEAKER_00 (40:09):
The change is literally just allowing wealthy
people to receive taxpayerdollars to fund private and
religious education andhomeschooling.
That's the only change.
Everything else is alreadythere.
SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
Okay.
Speaking of school choice,that's certainly a choice that
we're making here in NewHampshire.
That's definitely a choice.
And these choices already exist.
You can already choose to go toprivate school.
You can already choose tohomeschool your kiddo.
You can already choose to go toa public school.
The question is, who pays forthat?
(40:43):
And should it be public taxdollars going to Christian
schools?
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