April 2, 2025 • 30 mins
Dr. Maria Rosario Jackson is the former chair of the National Endowment for the Arts, having resigned when President Trump took office. She talks about how the arts are shaping urban policy, including by “healing, bridging and thriving” in communities.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Straw Hut Media.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You know, the profound impact of the arts has so
many manifestations, and one of them I think is a
precondition for everything else, and that is the ability for
us to see the humanity in each other. And you know,
(00:32):
I contend that if we can't see the humanity in
each other, none of the other policies matter.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
This is Lucas Grindley from Next City, a show about
change makers and their stories. Truth is, there are solutions
to the problems of pressing people in cities. If you're listening,
I hope it's because you want to spread good ideas
from one city to the next city. The world is
giving us a lot to contend with right now, and
on today's episode, we're talking about the role that arts
can play in our work to build healthier, more just,
(01:01):
and more connected communities. And we have the single best
person I can imagine asking for advice right now. That's
doctor Mario Rosario Jackson. She's a lifelong advocate for embedding
arts and culture into public policy. The country may know
her best as the former chair of the National Endowment
for the Arts. She resigned that job effective on January twentieth,
the day of the inauguration for the new administration. We're
(01:23):
also lucky to have Jason Schupack asking the questions. Jason
is the dean of Westfall College of Media, Arts and
Design at Drexel University. He's a former board member for
Next City, and before all that, he was director of
Design and created placemicking programs for the NEA. So much
is changing all around us. Jason's going to ask about
the opportunities that still exist for artists to make a
(01:44):
difference and help foster belonging instead of exclusion. They'll talk
about some exemplary work that was funded by the NEA
and which shows us how cities can work with artists,
and finally, Jason will ask how doctor Jackson and any
of us can find joy in these uncertain times. This
conversation is possible because both our guests were a part
of the creation of the Rutledge Handbook of Urban Cultural Planning.
(02:06):
Jason co edited the book and doctor Jackson co authored
the closing article. You'll want to check it out. The
book brings together insights from across six continents and over
forty contributors into a manual for how cities can integrate
arts and culture into urban planning. Here's Jason.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
It is really the biggest survey of urban cultural planning
in about ten years, and it's really a comprehensive look
at the way that culturally informed city planning can happen,
both in the United States and across the world. It
was a partnership with the World Cities Culture Forum, the
(02:46):
National Down for the Arts, grantmakers in the Arts, the
Global Cultural Districts Network, and the Inter American Development Bank,
and includes policies, projects, precedences, all different kinds of information
about how culture works in cities. So, with thirty years
of experience and advancing art is a critical element of
healthy and just communities, Doctor Maria Zari Jackson has pursued
(03:07):
her work through applied public policy research, philanthropy, academia, the
nonprofit sector, and government. Tell us a little bit more
about your experience, Maria.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I'm trained as an urban planner. The work has been
from a number of different purchases, as you just mentioned,
with the most recent being federal government, but academia, philanthropy,
the nonprofit sector, and from all of those different purchaes,
I think the intention has been the same, and that
(03:39):
is to create just and healthy communities. Where everyone can thrive,
and I've seen the arts as an integral element of
that from very early on in my career.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
That's awesome. You are certainly an inspiration to me. But
tell me a little bit more about how your belief
and engaging creatives and city making started.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
You know, it started in a really intuitive way, and
part of it has to do with my personal background
and how I experienced the arts growing up. And I
didn't come from a family of artists or people who
were wealthy collectors or anything like that, but the arts
(04:28):
were a really important part of how my parents helped
my brother and me understand who we were, where we
came from, what our history was, helped us understand what
we were capable of. And I think they were doing
it intuitively as well. And I think what has been
(04:49):
interesting over the past three decades of work is the
evolution in understanding of the role of the arts in communities.
I think from a policy perspective, the default notion has
typically been to focus on economic development impacts, and without question,
(05:10):
those are significant and important and things that we need
to understand and hold up. But it's such a it's
just a part of the picture. And I think over
the years. What has been really beautiful to see is
the evolution of how we understand the importance of artists
(05:32):
and arts organizations and cultural agencies and really how they
can impact so many different facets of our individual and
collective lives, from the built environment and urban design to
physical environments as well as social context, right, so human connection.
(05:56):
How we understand again our histories, and how we imagine
and what the future can look like, and how we
make sense of our current circumstances. All of these things
I think rely on the arts in order for us
to fully engage, to fully engage as humans, and it
(06:17):
goes beyond just economic development. It certainly has impacts in
terms of health. It has impacts in terms of our
democracy and our ability to have a viable democracy. So again,
the evolution and the increasing understanding of the many facets
of how the arts contribute, I think is healthy. There's
(06:41):
so much more bona fide research now that speaks to
the importance of being in creative flow, of having art
in your life, and I think that that has led
to some policy evolutions that are that are important. Where
(07:02):
you see in some places there's social prescribing around the world,
right where you're told to go to a museum, go
to a concert, play an instrument, have a creative life,
which is what I've been trying to advance from all
of the purchase that I've that I've been fortunate enough
(07:22):
to work from.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
What are the opportunities right now for cities and goo
city planners to partner with creatives to make positive change
in this moment? Where do you Where do you think
there's the most opportunity there's So.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
There's there's a lot of opportunity. Again, I think the
health field and increased understanding of the role of the
arts in people's lives from the public health angle creates
a lot of opportunities for the growth of audience and
consumers as well as the growth of makers. So I
(08:01):
think that in the public health realm there's a lot
I think with investments in physical infrastructure, there's a lot
of opportunity for artists to participate and help lead how
we imagine our physical landscape in community planning processes. So
the idea that artists are potentially members of cross disciplinary
(08:25):
teams that allow us to move beyond I always say,
get unstuck, right, to get unstuck in our thinking about
what our cities and neighborhoods can actually deliver to us.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Right. And I think you've you know, when you're at
the NEA and that some of the work you're doing Kresky,
you also funded some work where artists were in residency
and city offices, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So in much of my career the focus has been
on arts integration, and I believe that at their most powerful,
the arts are part of so many facets of our lives.
It's not only artists in the traditional cultural venues, which
(09:09):
of course are important and we should have access to
and we should make sure that they exist. In addition
to that, though, artists have a role to play in
how we think about environmental issues, how we think about
our health, how we think about transportation, housing, all of
(09:30):
the things that planners care about. There is a role
for artists to push us and help us see things
from different perspectives and animate that imagination that we need
and creativity that we need in order to make the
places that we want to call home.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Right. I think a lot about Mara Eucules when I
think about artists and residents in cities. She was the
artist in residence at the Sanitation Department for New York
City for thirty years, and I think she did a
project to one point where she shook the hand of
every single sanitation worker in the city, which is such
a wonderful, validating thing to do, and then created some
sculptures and things from it. And I remember in LA
(10:11):
when they want they actually hired an artist to work
in the Department of Transportation and his job was to
take pedestrian deaths down to zero. They heard an artist, right,
It's like, you have to have creative people to have
creative solutions.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
After the break in these times of deep uncertainty? What
role can artists play in helping us imagine a better future?
Welcome back. Today's conversation is led by Jason Schupack, co
editor of the Rutledch Handbook of Urban Cultural Planning, in
(10:47):
dialogue with doctor Mario Versario Jackson. They've been talking about
how the arts impacts our cities. But creativity isn't just
nice to have, It's essential to our well being. Here's Jason, So.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Let's talk about artists. It isn't insert and time in
our country and world as you might have heard. You know,
what role do you think creatives should play now in cities,
you know, where can they lean in.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And now is the time when we need what artists
do the most right It's I always think of artists
as people who are truth tellers, people who help us
understand how we are connected to each other, how we
don't live in isolation, and how what happens to one
(11:33):
person impacts many. And I think that there's an opportunity
for artists to help us make sense of the world
right now, help us imagine what could be, and creating
these spaces where that can happen is something that we
(11:57):
have to be very deliberate about. It's something that we
have to not only protect but advance, Like how do
we make sure that cities have places where artists can
do their work and where people who don't see themselves
(12:20):
as artists necessarily can also continue to have healthy creative lives.
I've often said that none of the things that we
aspire to as a nation are possible. And when I say,
you know, none of the things we aspire to as
a nation of opportunity and justice, that none of that
(12:44):
is possible without the integration of arts, culture, and design
in all facets of our lives. You know, the profound
impact of the arts has so many manifestations, and one
of them I think is a precondition for everything else,
and that is the ability for us to see the
(13:08):
humanity in each other. The arts help us do that.
And you know, I contend that if we can't see
the humanity in each other, none of the other policies matter.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I agree. So we know there's a lot of infrastructure
projects happening right now. You mentioned this. You know, there
was a trillion dollar bill that happened that's just really
beginning to roll out. In the book, you said artists
are essential to driving inclusive community planning processes that inform
the physical expression of investments. Tell me more about what
you meant by this, And you know, if I'm got
(13:45):
a big project going on in my community, what's like
a good first step about how to get artists involved.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
One to recognize that there are probably artists in your
community that could have something to offer if they're able
to see the investment opportunity as a place where they
have a role. So there is something about being intentional
about understanding how artists can contribute and creating the pathways
(14:15):
where that's possible. But you know what that can look
like again, you know, some of it has to do
with public art, some of it has to do with
urban design and artists participating as contributors on the ground floor.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
So, when there's a new building or there are renovations
that are happening in significant places, you know, what's the
opportunity to make those places deeply meaningful because there is
an artistic expression or is there there is an esthetic
element to it. Artists and designers are really important contributors
(14:59):
to making sh or that the places that are being
built are reflections of who we are as a society,
reflections of our many and varied histories. And this can
happen as part of the planning process, it can happen
(15:19):
as part of the actual execution of a building design.
So there are lots of points of interception or intervention
or connection that I think as planners we need to identify,
make visible and animate, make accessible.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
I remember when we were at the NEA and we
created the Art Time program, which was a creative placemaking program. Flint,
Michigan was redoing its city plan and its zoning for
the first time in fifty years. And this is after
the water isis and they came to the they asked
for grant from the NEA to fund artists to participate
(16:07):
in the planning process because they wanted to collect data
in different ways. I mean, we've all watched parks and
rec How boring are the public meetings on that TV show.
They're even worse than some communities. So what they did
is they had artists go and live in residency in
neighborhoods and storefronts they worked obviously not necessarily lived there,
and help community meetings in these storefronts using artistic practices,
(16:30):
theater practices, you know, getting people to put on plays
about what they want to see to do in the
see in the community, using dance practices, visual art practices,
And I just thought that was so cool, and they
got so many data in such a different way and
such so much more honest data about what it would
take for them to belong in that community. I just
(16:50):
I felt that was incredibly powerful.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
It is, it's really powerful. You know. When I was teaching,
there's an examples. I'm in Los Angeles is my hometown,
and there's an example, so many examples here, but there's
one in particular that also had any support, and it
was the WATS Willowbrook Project and Roston wu is the
(17:15):
artist who helped design and execute a cultural asset mapping process.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, I explain with that is what a cultural asset
mapping process is. That's probably a new term just a
lot of people.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, So communities have things that they cherish and should
be proud of and things that need to be lifted
up that are often cultural, that are art based or
art relevant. And I think an important you know, a
(17:48):
lot of the work that I've done has been in
low income and historically marginalized communities. Not I mean they've
worked in all kinds of communities, but specifically when you're
you're looking at communities that have those characteristics, the tendency
is to look only at their deficits. And the intention
(18:11):
of looking at assets in communities that are primarily defined
by their deficits is not to turn a blind eye
to the deficits or say that they don't exist, but
to have a more balanced perspective of who lives there
and what they have to offer and how they're human.
And I think that the cultural asset mapping that I've
(18:33):
been most excited about is that activity that reveals that.
And in this case, rosst and WU created a process
by which residents of the wats Willowbrook community were able
to lift up the things that they loved, that they
(18:55):
cared about, that made them proud to be from where
they were from, that made them feel like they were contributing,
and all kinds of things that you wouldn't necessarily know
existed in the community began to be revealed. So people
had these amazing collections of sculptures that they had made
(19:16):
from found objects. There were bands, There were lots of
bands in the neighborhood. Music was important. There were dance troops.
There were all of these artistic expressions and evidence that
people were creative and resourceful and imaginative. And I remember
(19:38):
when I used to teach about planning in cities and
was trying to advance more of a balanced approach to
low income neighborhoods. I would tell the students. I would say, Okay,
now you know these assets exist in this neighborhood, how
does that change you're thinking about what needs to happen there?
(20:01):
And there was no singular answer, but suddenly the students
weren't just responsible for statistics, they were responsible for people
and people who had these artistic expressions that was evidence
(20:21):
of their humanity.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
We're talking about what makes us human. Up next, we'll
talk about how we can measure the impact of the
arts not just in figures, but in culture, connection and care.
Plus the idea of cultural kitchens and why every community
needs them. Welcome back. We're talking today about the role
(20:47):
of the arts in our communities. How do we know
when arts and culture are really making a difference. Here's Jason.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Let's nerd out on this topic of measurement. So a
lot of folks will that the contribution of culture to
communities is not important, right, and it's not measurable in
ways that matter to policymakers. You alluded to this in
the beginning, right, looking at a lot of people only
look at the economic indicators. I know you don't agree
with that. I know you've done a ton of work
in this area, So talk to me about it and
about some of the ways you've looked at measuring the
(21:20):
impacts of creatives and culture and communities.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I think that again not diminishing the importance of economic impacts,
but to look at a number of characteristics of a
community to understand its cultural vitality, I think is really significant.
And when that work started and I was at the
(21:46):
Urban Institute, we were looking at all kinds of things.
We were looking at the presence of artists in communities,
the presence of arts education programs. We're looking at both
not profit and commercial entities that provided some indication that
people had access to artistic experiences. It was this wide
(22:12):
range of different manifestations of arts and culture in a
place that could easily go unnoticed or ignored even but
without these things, there was a palpable difference in how
(22:32):
communities felt and how people experienced them, whether they felt
like they belonged or whether they even felt safe. Right,
But something about the interpretation of the built environment and
the role of creative expression in helping us understand where
(22:53):
we live and what needs to happen there. That was
a was really important foundational set of insights that guided
a lot of the work going forward. So if you
understand that and you believe that, then what does data
collection look like? All right? What does it mean to
(23:14):
pay attention to where there's evidence of care or pay
attention to where there's evidence of despair? So it's a
little bit more nuanced, and it's not only initially quantitative
but there's a need to understand qualitative observations and figure
out how to turn that into something that can inform
(23:37):
a policy discussion and a discussion about resource allocation.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yes, I want to live in a world where there's
more nuance. I want to go back to this idea
of spaces are belonging. So I think a lot of
people that think about city planners when they think about culture,
they think about, Oh, it's the museum, it's the theater,
(24:03):
it's the dance center, very traditional kind of capital projects,
spaces impacts. You've written quite extensively about this idea of
cultural kitchens, that there are other kinds of spaces that
are very meaningful to communities and build belonging. It's a
beautiful term. Can you kind of explain to me what
you mean by that and how city planners could partner
(24:26):
with those spaces for communities, how they might recognize and
validate the importance of those spaces in their communities and
in their plans. Talk to me a little about cultural kitchens.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
When people talk about cities, people talk about the vitality
and the diversity, and that happens when people celebrate the
cultural commons. And it occurred to me that what we
don't do enough is think about where do we make
(25:01):
the things that we want to share? Where does that
happen If there's a communal table and everyone is asked
to bring something to share, but what if you don't
have a place to prepare what you want to bring?
And this is the idea of cultural kitchens, right And
it's not just about food, although it could be, but
(25:22):
it is about what is it that we are able
to share with others and where do we make that?
And I think it's really important for communities to have
these cultural kitchens, these places where you can come to
be creative, to ask questions, to figure out how to
(25:46):
make sense of the world, how to care for each other,
and how to do that in ways that are often
art based.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I think it's a beautiful conception. I think it's important
for planners to recognize and validate the importance of these
spaces and create support systems for them. So you know
that it's a tough time for a lot of people.
People are definitely stressed about so I want to talk
about finding some joy in this moment. I know this
kind of uncertainty right now is leading to a lack
(26:16):
of joy. What is what's bringing you joy? What would
you encourage others to do? What kind of artistic practices
to help bring them some joy and tamp down some
of that stress.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
You know, I'm thinking a lot about, like in the
spaces where you have control over your environment, what can
we do to build the artful lives that we need
if we're going to survive as a species. And I
(26:48):
just I'm you know, I encourage us all to be
about that, to be about the expression of care and
to protect each other's humanities humanity, and I think that
there's no better way to do that than through the arts.
And I think what brings me joy is knowing that
(27:14):
even small gestures can matter and that we all have
the opportunity to try to build our full lives. And
I think the notion that small things can matter is
something that we need to embrace. And it doesn't mean
(27:35):
that big gestures need to go away, or that we
shouldn't pay attention to big actions, But the ability to
protect and guard our creativity and imagination is something that
we have to do and we have to celebrate when
(27:59):
we see evidence of that. There's something that is empowering
and transformational when people learn that they can make something
or that they can bring an idea to life, and
the fact that we can still do that in whatever ways,
(28:22):
because we haven't fully lost our humanity is something that
I hold I hold onto, So having a beautiful dinner
with friends and paying attention to how we treat each
other and being intentional about care and beauty and expression
(28:47):
and mourning and pain and tending to all of that
fully with head, heart and hand. That's something that I
have to believe is still available to us. And the
fact that we can do that and must do that
as has some seated joy.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Next City Show
about change makers and their stories. Together we can spread
good ideas from one city to the next city. Thank
you for listening this week, and thank you to our
guests doctor Mario Rosario Jackson, former chair of the National
Endowment for the Arts, and Jason Schupack, co editor of
the New Rutledge Handbook of Urban Cultural Planning. To hear
the full conversation between Jason and Maria, visit nextcity dot
(29:47):
org slash webinars. Our audio producer is Silvana Alcala. Our
show producer is Maggie Bowles. Our executive producer is Ryan Tillotson,
and I'm Lucas Gridley, executive director for Next City. By
the way, next City is a news organation with a
nonprofit model. If you believe in the power of well
researched stories that uplift change makers, please consider supporting our work.
(30:07):
Visit nexcity dot org slash membership to make a donation.
We'd love to hear from you. Email us anytime at
info atnexcity dot org and if you haven't already, subscribed
to the show on Apple, Spotify, good Pods, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Straw Hut Media.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You know, the profound impact of the arts has so
many manifestations, and one of them I think is a
precondition for everything else, and that is the ability for
us to see the humanity in each other. And you know,
(00:32):
I contend that if we can't see the humanity in
each other, none of the other policies matter.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
This is Lucas Grindley from Next City, a show about
change makers and their stories. Truth is, there are solutions
to the problems of pressing people in cities. If you're listening,
I hope it's because you want to spread good ideas
from one city to the next city. The world is
giving us a lot to contend with right now, and
on today's episode, we're talking about the role that arts
can play in our work to build healthier, more just,
(01:01):
and more connected communities. And we have the single best
person I can imagine asking for advice right now. That's
doctor Mario Rosario Jackson. She's a lifelong advocate for embedding
arts and culture into public policy. The country may know
her best as the former chair of the National Endowment
for the Arts. She resigned that job effective on January twentieth,
the day of the inauguration for the new administration. We're
(01:23):
also lucky to have Jason Schupack asking the questions. Jason
is the dean of Westfall College of Media, Arts and
Design at Drexel University. He's a former board member for
Next City, and before all that, he was director of
Design and created placemicking programs for the NEA. So much
is changing all around us. Jason's going to ask about
the opportunities that still exist for artists to make a
(01:44):
difference and help foster belonging instead of exclusion. They'll talk
about some exemplary work that was funded by the NEA
and which shows us how cities can work with artists,
and finally, Jason will ask how doctor Jackson and any
of us can find joy in these uncertain times. This
conversation is possible because both our guests were a part
of the creation of the Rutledge Handbook of Urban Cultural Planning.
(02:06):
Jason co edited the book and doctor Jackson co authored
the closing article. You'll want to check it out. The
book brings together insights from across six continents and over
forty contributors into a manual for how cities can integrate
arts and culture into urban planning. Here's Jason.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
It is really the biggest survey of urban cultural planning
in about ten years, and it's really a comprehensive look
at the way that culturally informed city planning can happen,
both in the United States and across the world. It
was a partnership with the World Cities Culture Forum, the
(02:46):
National Down for the Arts, grantmakers in the Arts, the
Global Cultural Districts Network, and the Inter American Development Bank,
and includes policies, projects, precedences, all different kinds of information
about how culture works in cities. So, with thirty years
of experience and advancing art is a critical element of
healthy and just communities, Doctor Maria Zari Jackson has pursued
(03:07):
her work through applied public policy research, philanthropy, academia, the
nonprofit sector, and government. Tell us a little bit more
about your experience, Maria.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I'm trained as an urban planner. The work has been
from a number of different purchases, as you just mentioned,
with the most recent being federal government, but academia, philanthropy,
the nonprofit sector, and from all of those different purchaes,
I think the intention has been the same, and that
(03:39):
is to create just and healthy communities. Where everyone can thrive,
and I've seen the arts as an integral element of
that from very early on in my career.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
That's awesome. You are certainly an inspiration to me. But
tell me a little bit more about how your belief
and engaging creatives and city making started.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
You know, it started in a really intuitive way, and
part of it has to do with my personal background
and how I experienced the arts growing up. And I
didn't come from a family of artists or people who
were wealthy collectors or anything like that, but the arts
(04:28):
were a really important part of how my parents helped
my brother and me understand who we were, where we
came from, what our history was, helped us understand what
we were capable of. And I think they were doing
it intuitively as well. And I think what has been
(04:49):
interesting over the past three decades of work is the
evolution in understanding of the role of the arts in communities.
I think from a policy perspective, the default notion has
typically been to focus on economic development impacts, and without question,
(05:10):
those are significant and important and things that we need
to understand and hold up. But it's such a it's
just a part of the picture. And I think over
the years. What has been really beautiful to see is
the evolution of how we understand the importance of artists
(05:32):
and arts organizations and cultural agencies and really how they
can impact so many different facets of our individual and
collective lives, from the built environment and urban design to
physical environments as well as social context, right, so human connection.
(05:56):
How we understand again our histories, and how we imagine
and what the future can look like, and how we
make sense of our current circumstances. All of these things
I think rely on the arts in order for us
to fully engage, to fully engage as humans, and it
(06:17):
goes beyond just economic development. It certainly has impacts in
terms of health. It has impacts in terms of our
democracy and our ability to have a viable democracy. So again,
the evolution and the increasing understanding of the many facets
of how the arts contribute, I think is healthy. There's
(06:41):
so much more bona fide research now that speaks to
the importance of being in creative flow, of having art
in your life, and I think that that has led
to some policy evolutions that are that are important. Where
(07:02):
you see in some places there's social prescribing around the world,
right where you're told to go to a museum, go
to a concert, play an instrument, have a creative life,
which is what I've been trying to advance from all
of the purchase that I've that I've been fortunate enough
(07:22):
to work from.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
What are the opportunities right now for cities and goo
city planners to partner with creatives to make positive change
in this moment? Where do you Where do you think
there's the most opportunity there's So.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
There's there's a lot of opportunity. Again, I think the
health field and increased understanding of the role of the
arts in people's lives from the public health angle creates
a lot of opportunities for the growth of audience and
consumers as well as the growth of makers. So I
(08:01):
think that in the public health realm there's a lot
I think with investments in physical infrastructure, there's a lot
of opportunity for artists to participate and help lead how
we imagine our physical landscape in community planning processes. So
the idea that artists are potentially members of cross disciplinary
(08:25):
teams that allow us to move beyond I always say,
get unstuck, right, to get unstuck in our thinking about
what our cities and neighborhoods can actually deliver to us.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Right. And I think you've you know, when you're at
the NEA and that some of the work you're doing Kresky,
you also funded some work where artists were in residency
and city offices, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So in much of my career the focus has been
on arts integration, and I believe that at their most powerful,
the arts are part of so many facets of our lives.
It's not only artists in the traditional cultural venues, which
(09:09):
of course are important and we should have access to
and we should make sure that they exist. In addition
to that, though, artists have a role to play in
how we think about environmental issues, how we think about
our health, how we think about transportation, housing, all of
(09:30):
the things that planners care about. There is a role
for artists to push us and help us see things
from different perspectives and animate that imagination that we need
and creativity that we need in order to make the
places that we want to call home.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Right. I think a lot about Mara Eucules when I
think about artists and residents in cities. She was the
artist in residence at the Sanitation Department for New York
City for thirty years, and I think she did a
project to one point where she shook the hand of
every single sanitation worker in the city, which is such
a wonderful, validating thing to do, and then created some
sculptures and things from it. And I remember in LA
(10:11):
when they want they actually hired an artist to work
in the Department of Transportation and his job was to
take pedestrian deaths down to zero. They heard an artist, right,
It's like, you have to have creative people to have
creative solutions.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
After the break in these times of deep uncertainty? What
role can artists play in helping us imagine a better future?
Welcome back. Today's conversation is led by Jason Schupack, co
editor of the Rutledch Handbook of Urban Cultural Planning, in
(10:47):
dialogue with doctor Mario Versario Jackson. They've been talking about
how the arts impacts our cities. But creativity isn't just
nice to have, It's essential to our well being. Here's Jason, So.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Let's talk about artists. It isn't insert and time in
our country and world as you might have heard. You know,
what role do you think creatives should play now in cities,
you know, where can they lean in.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And now is the time when we need what artists
do the most right It's I always think of artists
as people who are truth tellers, people who help us
understand how we are connected to each other, how we
don't live in isolation, and how what happens to one
(11:33):
person impacts many. And I think that there's an opportunity
for artists to help us make sense of the world
right now, help us imagine what could be, and creating
these spaces where that can happen is something that we
(11:57):
have to be very deliberate about. It's something that we
have to not only protect but advance, Like how do
we make sure that cities have places where artists can
do their work and where people who don't see themselves
(12:20):
as artists necessarily can also continue to have healthy creative lives.
I've often said that none of the things that we
aspire to as a nation are possible. And when I say,
you know, none of the things we aspire to as
a nation of opportunity and justice, that none of that
(12:44):
is possible without the integration of arts, culture, and design
in all facets of our lives. You know, the profound
impact of the arts has so many manifestations, and one
of them I think is a precondition for everything else,
and that is the ability for us to see the
(13:08):
humanity in each other. The arts help us do that.
And you know, I contend that if we can't see
the humanity in each other, none of the other policies matter.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I agree. So we know there's a lot of infrastructure
projects happening right now. You mentioned this. You know, there
was a trillion dollar bill that happened that's just really
beginning to roll out. In the book, you said artists
are essential to driving inclusive community planning processes that inform
the physical expression of investments. Tell me more about what
you meant by this, And you know, if I'm got
(13:45):
a big project going on in my community, what's like
a good first step about how to get artists involved.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
One to recognize that there are probably artists in your
community that could have something to offer if they're able
to see the investment opportunity as a place where they
have a role. So there is something about being intentional
about understanding how artists can contribute and creating the pathways
(14:15):
where that's possible. But you know what that can look
like again, you know, some of it has to do
with public art, some of it has to do with
urban design and artists participating as contributors on the ground floor.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
So, when there's a new building or there are renovations
that are happening in significant places, you know, what's the
opportunity to make those places deeply meaningful because there is
an artistic expression or is there there is an esthetic
element to it. Artists and designers are really important contributors
(14:59):
to making sh or that the places that are being
built are reflections of who we are as a society,
reflections of our many and varied histories. And this can
happen as part of the planning process, it can happen
(15:19):
as part of the actual execution of a building design.
So there are lots of points of interception or intervention
or connection that I think as planners we need to identify,
make visible and animate, make accessible.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
I remember when we were at the NEA and we
created the Art Time program, which was a creative placemaking program. Flint,
Michigan was redoing its city plan and its zoning for
the first time in fifty years. And this is after
the water isis and they came to the they asked
for grant from the NEA to fund artists to participate
(16:07):
in the planning process because they wanted to collect data
in different ways. I mean, we've all watched parks and
rec How boring are the public meetings on that TV show.
They're even worse than some communities. So what they did
is they had artists go and live in residency in
neighborhoods and storefronts they worked obviously not necessarily lived there,
and help community meetings in these storefronts using artistic practices,
(16:30):
theater practices, you know, getting people to put on plays
about what they want to see to do in the
see in the community, using dance practices, visual art practices,
And I just thought that was so cool, and they
got so many data in such a different way and
such so much more honest data about what it would
take for them to belong in that community. I just
(16:50):
I felt that was incredibly powerful.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
It is, it's really powerful. You know. When I was teaching,
there's an examples. I'm in Los Angeles is my hometown,
and there's an example, so many examples here, but there's
one in particular that also had any support, and it
was the WATS Willowbrook Project and Roston wu is the
(17:15):
artist who helped design and execute a cultural asset mapping process.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, I explain with that is what a cultural asset
mapping process is. That's probably a new term just a
lot of people.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, So communities have things that they cherish and should
be proud of and things that need to be lifted
up that are often cultural, that are art based or
art relevant. And I think an important you know, a
(17:48):
lot of the work that I've done has been in
low income and historically marginalized communities. Not I mean they've
worked in all kinds of communities, but specifically when you're
you're looking at communities that have those characteristics, the tendency
is to look only at their deficits. And the intention
(18:11):
of looking at assets in communities that are primarily defined
by their deficits is not to turn a blind eye
to the deficits or say that they don't exist, but
to have a more balanced perspective of who lives there
and what they have to offer and how they're human.
And I think that the cultural asset mapping that I've
(18:33):
been most excited about is that activity that reveals that.
And in this case, rosst and WU created a process
by which residents of the wats Willowbrook community were able
to lift up the things that they loved, that they
(18:55):
cared about, that made them proud to be from where
they were from, that made them feel like they were contributing,
and all kinds of things that you wouldn't necessarily know
existed in the community began to be revealed. So people
had these amazing collections of sculptures that they had made
(19:16):
from found objects. There were bands, There were lots of
bands in the neighborhood. Music was important. There were dance troops.
There were all of these artistic expressions and evidence that
people were creative and resourceful and imaginative. And I remember
(19:38):
when I used to teach about planning in cities and
was trying to advance more of a balanced approach to
low income neighborhoods. I would tell the students. I would say, Okay,
now you know these assets exist in this neighborhood, how
does that change you're thinking about what needs to happen there?
(20:01):
And there was no singular answer, but suddenly the students
weren't just responsible for statistics, they were responsible for people
and people who had these artistic expressions that was evidence
(20:21):
of their humanity.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
We're talking about what makes us human. Up next, we'll
talk about how we can measure the impact of the
arts not just in figures, but in culture, connection and care.
Plus the idea of cultural kitchens and why every community
needs them. Welcome back. We're talking today about the role
(20:47):
of the arts in our communities. How do we know
when arts and culture are really making a difference. Here's Jason.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Let's nerd out on this topic of measurement. So a
lot of folks will that the contribution of culture to
communities is not important, right, and it's not measurable in
ways that matter to policymakers. You alluded to this in
the beginning, right, looking at a lot of people only
look at the economic indicators. I know you don't agree
with that. I know you've done a ton of work
in this area, So talk to me about it and
about some of the ways you've looked at measuring the
(21:20):
impacts of creatives and culture and communities.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I think that again not diminishing the importance of economic impacts,
but to look at a number of characteristics of a
community to understand its cultural vitality, I think is really significant.
And when that work started and I was at the
(21:46):
Urban Institute, we were looking at all kinds of things.
We were looking at the presence of artists in communities,
the presence of arts education programs. We're looking at both
not profit and commercial entities that provided some indication that
people had access to artistic experiences. It was this wide
(22:12):
range of different manifestations of arts and culture in a
place that could easily go unnoticed or ignored even but
without these things, there was a palpable difference in how
(22:32):
communities felt and how people experienced them, whether they felt
like they belonged or whether they even felt safe. Right,
But something about the interpretation of the built environment and
the role of creative expression in helping us understand where
(22:53):
we live and what needs to happen there. That was
a was really important foundational set of insights that guided
a lot of the work going forward. So if you
understand that and you believe that, then what does data
collection look like? All right? What does it mean to
(23:14):
pay attention to where there's evidence of care or pay
attention to where there's evidence of despair? So it's a
little bit more nuanced, and it's not only initially quantitative
but there's a need to understand qualitative observations and figure
out how to turn that into something that can inform
(23:37):
a policy discussion and a discussion about resource allocation.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yes, I want to live in a world where there's
more nuance. I want to go back to this idea
of spaces are belonging. So I think a lot of
people that think about city planners when they think about culture,
they think about, Oh, it's the museum, it's the theater,
(24:03):
it's the dance center, very traditional kind of capital projects,
spaces impacts. You've written quite extensively about this idea of
cultural kitchens, that there are other kinds of spaces that
are very meaningful to communities and build belonging. It's a
beautiful term. Can you kind of explain to me what
you mean by that and how city planners could partner
(24:26):
with those spaces for communities, how they might recognize and
validate the importance of those spaces in their communities and
in their plans. Talk to me a little about cultural kitchens.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
When people talk about cities, people talk about the vitality
and the diversity, and that happens when people celebrate the
cultural commons. And it occurred to me that what we
don't do enough is think about where do we make
(25:01):
the things that we want to share? Where does that
happen If there's a communal table and everyone is asked
to bring something to share, but what if you don't
have a place to prepare what you want to bring?
And this is the idea of cultural kitchens, right And
it's not just about food, although it could be, but
(25:22):
it is about what is it that we are able
to share with others and where do we make that?
And I think it's really important for communities to have
these cultural kitchens, these places where you can come to
be creative, to ask questions, to figure out how to
(25:46):
make sense of the world, how to care for each other,
and how to do that in ways that are often
art based.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
I think it's a beautiful conception. I think it's important
for planners to recognize and validate the importance of these
spaces and create support systems for them. So you know
that it's a tough time for a lot of people.
People are definitely stressed about so I want to talk
about finding some joy in this moment. I know this
kind of uncertainty right now is leading to a lack
(26:16):
of joy. What is what's bringing you joy? What would
you encourage others to do? What kind of artistic practices
to help bring them some joy and tamp down some
of that stress.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
You know, I'm thinking a lot about, like in the
spaces where you have control over your environment, what can
we do to build the artful lives that we need
if we're going to survive as a species. And I
(26:48):
just I'm you know, I encourage us all to be
about that, to be about the expression of care and
to protect each other's humanities humanity, and I think that
there's no better way to do that than through the arts.
And I think what brings me joy is knowing that
(27:14):
even small gestures can matter and that we all have
the opportunity to try to build our full lives. And
I think the notion that small things can matter is
something that we need to embrace. And it doesn't mean
(27:35):
that big gestures need to go away, or that we
shouldn't pay attention to big actions, But the ability to
protect and guard our creativity and imagination is something that
we have to do and we have to celebrate when
(27:59):
we see evidence of that. There's something that is empowering
and transformational when people learn that they can make something
or that they can bring an idea to life, and
the fact that we can still do that in whatever ways,
(28:22):
because we haven't fully lost our humanity is something that
I hold I hold onto, So having a beautiful dinner
with friends and paying attention to how we treat each
other and being intentional about care and beauty and expression
(28:47):
and mourning and pain and tending to all of that
fully with head, heart and hand. That's something that I
have to believe is still available to us. And the
fact that we can do that and must do that
as has some seated joy.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Next City Show
about change makers and their stories. Together we can spread
good ideas from one city to the next city. Thank
you for listening this week, and thank you to our
guests doctor Mario Rosario Jackson, former chair of the National
Endowment for the Arts, and Jason Schupack, co editor of
the New Rutledge Handbook of Urban Cultural Planning. To hear
the full conversation between Jason and Maria, visit nextcity dot
(29:47):
org slash webinars. Our audio producer is Silvana Alcala. Our
show producer is Maggie Bowles. Our executive producer is Ryan Tillotson,
and I'm Lucas Gridley, executive director for Next City. By
the way, next City is a news organation with a
nonprofit model. If you believe in the power of well
researched stories that uplift change makers, please consider supporting our work.
(30:07):
Visit nexcity dot org slash membership to make a donation.
We'd love to hear from you. Email us anytime at
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