May 21, 2025 • 20 mins
In this episode of Next Door Gospel, host Peggy Griffith welcomes her friend Matt, an atheist from Longmont, Colorado, to discuss the importance of understanding different belief systems. The conversation centers on fostering respectful dialogue without the aim of converting or convincing each other. Matt shares his journey from a traditional Christian upbringing to atheism, emphasizing the value of open-mindedness and learning from various perspectives. The discussion touches on the impact of organized religion, the irony of religious contradictions, and the notion of evidence for God's existence. Peggy encourages listeners to approach similar conversations with grace and an open mind, highlighting the shared quest for doing good in the world.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Peggy Griffith (00:10):
And welcome back to Next Door Gospel.
I am your host, Peggy Griffith,and I am so happy to be with
you today.
So I got a joke for you, aChristian and an atheist walk
into a bar and plot twist.
They have a delightful and afruitful conversation.
I have been looking forward tothis episode for several weeks,
(00:32):
and I'm excited to bring youalong for it.
I realize that this might be asensitive topic for some folks
because I know that as humanbeings, we are naturally drawn
to our closely held convictions.
Um, we have rigidity around ourcertainty that things are the
way they are, and there's noroom for doubt.
Well, a quote attributed toMark Twain says, it ain't what
(00:54):
you don't know that gets you introuble.
It's what you know for sure.
That just ain't so.
So today's episode is aboutunderstanding different paths,
and our guest today is my friendMatt from Longmont, Colorado.
Matt and I go back a long time.
We used to work together andhave known each other for years.
Matt identifies as an atheist,but has also been very open to
(01:17):
having thoughtful dialogue andconversation on just about any
topic.
So our goal today is not toconvince or convert the other
into a way of thinking, but tolisten and understand and grow
through these conversations.
So I encourage you today toclear your mind of any ideas or
notions you may have aboutatheist or agnostic viewpoints.
(01:41):
I suspect that after hearingMatt's story, you may find that
we are more alike than we think,and we can love and respect
each other in the quest fordoing good in this world.
So Matt, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Matt Adams (01:57):
Yeah.
Thanks Peggy.
And when I heard about thispodcast, I was actually, very,
appreciative and I was veryexcited to see people following
their passions.
Um, I know that it's somethingthat you've probably had on your
heart.
I.
And it just another way ofreaching out to people.
And at least since we're inpodcast form, I don't have to
worry about anyone, throwinganything at me or giving me the
(02:18):
old Southern, bless your heart.
So that's always good.
Um, as you mentioned, we usedto work together many years ago
and we used to travel a lot.
We shared a lot of meals.
And we used to sit together atthe airport, a lot and we used
to have a lot of discussionsabout different things and,
religious beliefs often came up.
And I'm definitely one of thosepeople that I have my set of
beliefs that have been formedover the years.
(02:39):
Um, I definitely do not want,I.
To put anyone else down or tryto put myself above others in
any way, shape or form.
The last thing I would want todo is try to say, well, this is
what I believe, so you shouldbelieve this as well.
Um, I love hearing others'perspectives and I love, I.
Learning what makes them tickand how they come to, believe
(03:04):
what they believe.
So I'm, I'm really lookingforward to it.
Peggy Griffith (03:09):
That is great.
Well, what would you like toachieve by being on the podcast
today?
Knowing that a majority of thelisteners likely hold a deeply
held belief that is contrary toyours.
Matt Adams (03:20):
Well, that's a good question.
You know, I, I, I think one ofthe first things I would.
Like to accomplish is justletting people know that I am a
normal person, just like mostatheists are.
But I'm also not, uh, everyatheist I am, I think I'm very
understanding.
I think I'm very polite andcourteous.
Uh, and you as a Christian arenot every other Christian and
(03:45):
you can't, represent all thosepeople, but we can certainly
come together, and we can tryand.
Learn about what makes eachother who we are, and learn
that, you know, we're notnecessarily boogeyman, we're not
stupid, we're not evil, andmost of us aren't out there to
try to interfere with anyoneelse's way of life.
Um, I love learning abouthistory.
(04:08):
I love learning about thingslike science and astronomy.
I love learning about thingsthat, other people in the world
are going through that don'tmatch my set of understanding,
and I'm all for podcasts orbooks or anything like that,
that really help me open my mindto that type of experience.
(04:28):
And so that's really what I'mhoping to accomplish for you and
your listeners today.
Peggy Griffith (04:35):
And I love that about you, Matt.
Well, before we dive intodeeper conversations, I think
our listeners would love to heara bit about your background and
your path that led you to yourcurrent set of beliefs or
non-belief.
Matt Adams (04:51):
Sure.
I think, uh, like many,millions of people in America, I
grew up with a.
Fairly traditional, typicalChristian upbringing.
Uh, we were in a evangelicalfree church.
We had church, Sunday morning,Sunday evening Services, youth
group.
In the middle of the week wewould do do church camps with
youth groups.
We would do retreats, uh,things like that.
(05:14):
Christian music was alwaysplaying on the radio.
My mom actually worked for aChristian radio station.
That ended up being acquired byK Love many, many years ago.
Um, yeah.
Um, several members of myextended family are pastors or
have done mission work.
I was definitely, I.
What you would say, a dedicatedfollower of the church for
(05:36):
many, many years.
I had, a Jesus tattoo on mychest, at one point, which has
been covered up with anothertattoo now.
But, probably in my teenageyears, I started to, have some
questions about things that Ireally couldn't seem to find
answers that, that satisfiedthat curiosity.
And despite those questions, Istill remain.
(05:56):
Dedicated to the church.
I still went to church.
I still believed in God,everything like that.
For years and years and yearsand after I got out of high
school, I started, expanding toother churches, looking for
churches that were more designedfor, a young adult type
audience and thinking thatmaybe.
Maybe I would find one thatmaybe the problem was with the
(06:19):
church that I was attending, notnecessarily with churches as a
whole.
And I spent probably severalyears going back and forth to
different churches and reallyjust not, again, not finding
answers to questions that I had.
Around that time, I had somefairly basic education about
different religions aside fromChristianity, and I found it to
(06:42):
be quite intriguing, and theseweren't just things like Judaism
and Islam and, Hinduism.
But, what did the NativeAmericans believe before the
missionaries arrived?
What, what were their religionslike?
And, if we were to find auncontacted tribe in the middle
of the Amazon somewhere, chancesare probably good that they
(07:03):
have some religious beliefs.
So what are those beliefs andwhat makes them who they are?
And, and why am I Christian andnot these other religions?
And.
How did my ancestors come toaccept Christianity as opposed
to how some of these otherreligions ancestors came to
accept their religions?
(07:23):
And I think I, I found that tobe very intriguing and probably
was part of my, initialdeparture away from the church
around that time.
Peggy Griffith (07:33):
Yeah.
And you know, I definitely hearyou there.
I I had similar questionsgrowing up too and, I do
remember being a young child andasking my mom, like, where, why
were there so many differentreligions?
And which one was better?
Well, I mean, that was when,when you're kind of young,
that's a deep question, and Iknow it sounds overly
(07:56):
simplistic, but she, she said,well, you know how now I'm from
small town in Kentucky, so thathopefully that'll make sense.
So to what I'm saying.
But um, she said, well, youknow how the courthouse is in
the middle of town and sometimeswe take Main Street to get
there, and other times we takeShelby Street to get there.
We're all just trying to getthere.
And one route's not necessarilybetter than the other.
Matt Adams (08:19):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (08:20):
And I know that sounds like so simplistic, but
I've always sat with thatexplanation for a long time.
And I've also come to notequate religion with my
relationship with God.
Matt Adams (08:35):
I think that's very fair.
Peggy Griffith (08:36):
yeah.
And I think that's a topic forlike, we could have a whole
nother conversation.
I'll have to have you back onthat.
'cause I think that could be areally fascinating conversation.
Uh, but as it relates to yourearly questioning of religion,
would you say that part of thatunbelief is somewhat rooted in a
religious notion of biblicaland errancy, or maybe
(08:58):
contradiction that you wereseeing in the Bible, like, God
is love.
But then why does God let badthings happen or something else?
Matt Adams (09:08):
Um, you know, that's a good question too.
I don't really think that,played a part as much.
I think there was definitelysome irony that I noticed from a
very young age, of seeingthings like talking about God's
love, but then using God to hateother people was probably a
classic example.
And I think one of the.
The first that I probablynoticed was, the treatment of
(09:30):
homosexuality, among thefollowers and not all followers,
of course, you know, this isagain, one of those, some
Christians believe certainthings and some don't.
But, we were definitely taughtthat, God loved everybody.
Jesus.
Loved everyone.
He hung out with the lowerrungs of society.
He was more about caring forthe sick and he was, definitely,
(09:52):
not one to wag his finger atpeople and condemn them or
anything like that.
He was more love everybody.
Um, this is who is blessed, etcetera.
And, I think I became friendswith some some homosexuals over
the years and realized thatthese were not bad people.
(10:12):
Probably like when peoplebecome friends with me and
realize that, maybe they've beentold that atheists are bad
people, but you know, they'rejust fine.
And many of them were religiousand many of them love God.
And many of them love theirfamily and, had committed
relationships.
But yet.
We're being very downcast bymembers of the church.
And that definitely did not sitwell with me.
(10:36):
But it didn't necessarily makeme distrustful of religion as a
whole.
It more made me just distrustor dislike some of those
followers.
So, um, I think one of thethings that probably stood out
for me.
That, that may have been partof my separation was the church
that I had attended since I wasa baby.
Around the time of my lateryears of high school.
(10:58):
As I was starting to questionthings, they decided to rebuild
their fellowship hall andremodel the entire church.
And part of that was that therewas other churches, in the
neighborhood that were alsogetting newer and updated
equipment and newer buildings.
And so they.
Felt they had to compete andother, and, they started doing a
(11:20):
lot of aggressive fundraising.
They brought in professionalfundraisers.
They had members of the churchgive really, impassioned
speeches about how giving to thechurch had made their.
Lives better and so forth.
And, and it kind of got mewondering about whether God is,
about the flash, about thetechnology, about whether
(11:41):
churches really should becompeting with each other.
And I think that was alsoprobably part of my separation,
but I still believe that for themost part, that God truly.
Focusing on God as love isdefinitely a better option.
Peggy Griffith (11:58):
Yeah, and I think your comments, are very.
Timely.
And I think they're veryrelevant for today.
When you think about, the valueof where the church is, it's
the building itself versus whatit is for the community.
Right?
Matt Adams (12:17):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (12:18):
Um, and so many congregations and church
leaders, I think are ponderingthat question of what is the
value of.
Church, and if they're not,well, that's another
conversation for anotherepisode.
Matt Adams (12:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you certainly see, youknow, nothing against them, but
you see a lot of themegachurches, with the Joel Oste
and so forth as the pastors andyou know, pastors living in $40
million mansions and buildingsthat are, super elaborate with
parking decks and you know, allthe technology you can think of,
and thousands of peopleattending every week and
(12:55):
everyone tithing to the church.
And, it just kind of makes youwonder if that church is better
than, a little podunk church ina quiet little town for really
meeting the needs and bringingpeople closer to God.
Peggy Griffith (13:11):
That makes so much sense.
And I think that.
Religion.
I put up my little air quotesreligion as it has been
constructed and organized byhumans over time.
Um, it's gotten to a pointwhere, as I've discussed with my
pastor and with others, thatit's going through a great
unraveling and that's a goodthing.
(13:34):
Questioning, I think the valuethat the church brings to its
community and to its people.
To the world should continuallybe a part of a church life and
a church's existence.
Um, yeah, there's been a lot ofpain and hurt, even death in
(13:56):
the name of religion and I don'tthink that's what God intends
for humanity.
Matt Adams (14:02):
I, I would agree with you very much.
Yeah.
Peggy Griffith (14:06):
So in a conversation that we had a
couple of weeks ago, when wewere planning for this podcast,
you mentioned that you have notfound or seen evidence or proof
that God exists.
I would love to hear more aboutthat.
What does that evidence mean toyou?
Matt Adams (14:22):
Sure.
Well, there's an old joke, andI would love to take credit for
it, but I, I certainly can'twhere, a religious person would
say God can do anything to whichthe atheist would reply, have
him say hello.
Evidence of God used to befound in all kinds of different
sources, and over the years, Godhas meant many different
things.
And so, it used to be that ifthe rains fell or didn't, or if
(14:46):
the weather was good or bad, orthat the, that the harvest was
good or not.
It was either because the Godor the gods, or the ancestors or
whatever you want to call it,that invisible being had either
been pleased or angered by whatyou were doing.
And, I think people tend toassociate things that are good
(15:09):
and pleasing with God.
So they might look at abeautiful sunset and maybe a
view of the Grand Canyon and.
Something that really inspiresawe, you know, a, a view of the
Swiss Alps from right up next tohim and say, wow, this is
really amazing.
This is proof that God existsand that he created this.
But you rarely see it on theother side, so, a mundane sunset
(15:34):
or a boring state.
You know, I would hate to pickon any particular state because
I'm sure you have listeners andall of them, but I had the
opportunity to drive throughNorth Dakota a couple of months
ago, and it is just awful.
It is boring.
There's nothing to look at.
There's no hills, there's noanimals, there's nothing.
There's nothing great, andnobody would really.
Drive through that experienceand say clearly God is present
(15:58):
here because he gave us thisbeauty.
And so I think it's alsoimportant to remember that what
one person might, identify as amiracle or proof of God's
existence.
Another person might look at asa curse or as very bad news.
(16:18):
And one of the examples thatcame to mind when we were
discussing this earlier wassomeone who needs a new heart or
another critical organ and theyfinally get the news that they
can get one that could be seenas a miracle, but the fact that
they're getting that heart meansthat someone else.
(16:40):
Got very bad news.
Someone else passed awayunexpectedly.
Often a very young person,maybe in a car crash, maybe, in
some type of a suicide or maybesome other horrific accident.
That's why.
They no longer need the heart,but that's why someone else gets
to use the heart.
So, what could be a miracle toone person may definitely not be
(17:02):
a miracle to someone else.
So me personally, I can't sayI've ever seen anything, that
would be evidence of God thatcouldn't be explained by
something else.
Peggy Griffith (17:15):
I hear that, you know, as humans we do tend to
lump all the things we can'texplain into an act of God.
If things are great, it's agift from God.
If things aren't well, then itmust be God's will.
Matt Adams (17:29):
Mm-hmm.
Or part of a part of God's planthat we just don't understand
yet.
Peggy Griffith (17:34):
Yeah.
Grief and lament are very real.
Very human.
And the examples you justmentioned just made me stop in
my tracks a little bit, becauseI really think I'm thinking
about how a grieving family maybe experiencing that example
(17:56):
that you mentioned.
And then recognize my call.
To comfort and show grace, notto remind them that it's so
great that their loved one wasan organ donor.
Matt Adams (18:13):
Sure.
Peggy Griffith (18:14):
That doesn't help, them get through their
grief.
But yeah, that it's veryprofound, Matt.
Speaker (18:25):
Well, this concludes part one of my interview with
Matt, and next week's episodewe'll dive into questions about
ethics and morality, divineintervention prayer, and how
both religious and non-religiouspeople might work together to
do good in the world.
I hope you found thisconversation enlightening today.
(18:47):
There are parts of Matt's storythat I hear all too often from
people who have fallen away fromtheir faith.
I realize some of what youheard today might have sounded
uncomfortable, but I hope you'llsit with that a little bit and
maybe ponder how Matt's storymight impact how we are to show
up as God's people in the world.
(19:08):
How might we approachmeaningful conversations free of
judgment with others whobelieve or don't believe the
same things we do?
I really look forward tocontinuing this conversation
next week.
So be sure to click that followor subscribe button wherever
(19:28):
you listen to podcasts.
And until we meet again nextweek, I wish you all a blessed
week ahead and to stayencouraged everyone and as I
usually end each episode with ablessing from the book of
numbers, chapter three, I askedMatt if he was comfortable with
this, and of course, being thegood sport he is, he said, okay.
So may the Lord bless you andkeep you.
(19:51):
The Lord make his face to shineupon you and be gracious to
you.
The Lord turn his face towardsyou and give you peace.
Amen.
And welcome back to Next Door Gospel.
I am your host, Peggy Griffith,and I am so happy to be with
you today.
So I got a joke for you, aChristian and an atheist walk
into a bar and plot twist.
They have a delightful and afruitful conversation.
I have been looking forward tothis episode for several weeks,
(00:32):
and I'm excited to bring youalong for it.
I realize that this might be asensitive topic for some folks
because I know that as humanbeings, we are naturally drawn
to our closely held convictions.
Um, we have rigidity around ourcertainty that things are the
way they are, and there's noroom for doubt.
Well, a quote attributed toMark Twain says, it ain't what
(00:54):
you don't know that gets you introuble.
It's what you know for sure.
That just ain't so.
So today's episode is aboutunderstanding different paths,
and our guest today is my friendMatt from Longmont, Colorado.
Matt and I go back a long time.
We used to work together andhave known each other for years.
Matt identifies as an atheist,but has also been very open to
(01:17):
having thoughtful dialogue andconversation on just about any
topic.
So our goal today is not toconvince or convert the other
into a way of thinking, but tolisten and understand and grow
through these conversations.
So I encourage you today toclear your mind of any ideas or
notions you may have aboutatheist or agnostic viewpoints.
(01:41):
I suspect that after hearingMatt's story, you may find that
we are more alike than we think,and we can love and respect
each other in the quest fordoing good in this world.
So Matt, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Matt Adams (01:57):
Yeah.
Thanks Peggy.
And when I heard about thispodcast, I was actually, very,
appreciative and I was veryexcited to see people following
their passions.
Um, I know that it's somethingthat you've probably had on your
heart.
I.
And it just another way ofreaching out to people.
And at least since we're inpodcast form, I don't have to
worry about anyone, throwinganything at me or giving me the
(02:18):
old Southern, bless your heart.
So that's always good.
Um, as you mentioned, we usedto work together many years ago
and we used to travel a lot.
We shared a lot of meals.
And we used to sit together atthe airport, a lot and we used
to have a lot of discussionsabout different things and,
religious beliefs often came up.
And I'm definitely one of thosepeople that I have my set of
beliefs that have been formedover the years.
(02:39):
Um, I definitely do not want,I.
To put anyone else down or tryto put myself above others in
any way, shape or form.
The last thing I would want todo is try to say, well, this is
what I believe, so you shouldbelieve this as well.
Um, I love hearing others'perspectives and I love, I.
Learning what makes them tickand how they come to, believe
(03:04):
what they believe.
So I'm, I'm really lookingforward to it.
Peggy Griffith (03:09):
That is great.
Well, what would you like toachieve by being on the podcast
today?
Knowing that a majority of thelisteners likely hold a deeply
held belief that is contrary toyours.
Matt Adams (03:20):
Well, that's a good question.
You know, I, I, I think one ofthe first things I would.
Like to accomplish is justletting people know that I am a
normal person, just like mostatheists are.
But I'm also not, uh, everyatheist I am, I think I'm very
understanding.
I think I'm very polite andcourteous.
Uh, and you as a Christian arenot every other Christian and
(03:45):
you can't, represent all thosepeople, but we can certainly
come together, and we can tryand.
Learn about what makes eachother who we are, and learn
that, you know, we're notnecessarily boogeyman, we're not
stupid, we're not evil, andmost of us aren't out there to
try to interfere with anyoneelse's way of life.
Um, I love learning abouthistory.
(04:08):
I love learning about thingslike science and astronomy.
I love learning about thingsthat, other people in the world
are going through that don'tmatch my set of understanding,
and I'm all for podcasts orbooks or anything like that,
that really help me open my mindto that type of experience.
(04:28):
And so that's really what I'mhoping to accomplish for you and
your listeners today.
Peggy Griffith (04:35):
And I love that about you, Matt.
Well, before we dive intodeeper conversations, I think
our listeners would love to heara bit about your background and
your path that led you to yourcurrent set of beliefs or
non-belief.
Matt Adams (04:51):
Sure.
I think, uh, like many,millions of people in America, I
grew up with a.
Fairly traditional, typicalChristian upbringing.
Uh, we were in a evangelicalfree church.
We had church, Sunday morning,Sunday evening Services, youth
group.
In the middle of the week wewould do do church camps with
youth groups.
We would do retreats, uh,things like that.
(05:14):
Christian music was alwaysplaying on the radio.
My mom actually worked for aChristian radio station.
That ended up being acquired byK Love many, many years ago.
Um, yeah.
Um, several members of myextended family are pastors or
have done mission work.
I was definitely, I.
What you would say, a dedicatedfollower of the church for
(05:36):
many, many years.
I had, a Jesus tattoo on mychest, at one point, which has
been covered up with anothertattoo now.
But, probably in my teenageyears, I started to, have some
questions about things that Ireally couldn't seem to find
answers that, that satisfiedthat curiosity.
And despite those questions, Istill remain.
(05:56):
Dedicated to the church.
I still went to church.
I still believed in God,everything like that.
For years and years and yearsand after I got out of high
school, I started, expanding toother churches, looking for
churches that were more designedfor, a young adult type
audience and thinking thatmaybe.
Maybe I would find one thatmaybe the problem was with the
(06:19):
church that I was attending, notnecessarily with churches as a
whole.
And I spent probably severalyears going back and forth to
different churches and reallyjust not, again, not finding
answers to questions that I had.
Around that time, I had somefairly basic education about
different religions aside fromChristianity, and I found it to
(06:42):
be quite intriguing, and theseweren't just things like Judaism
and Islam and, Hinduism.
But, what did the NativeAmericans believe before the
missionaries arrived?
What, what were their religionslike?
And, if we were to find auncontacted tribe in the middle
of the Amazon somewhere, chancesare probably good that they
(07:03):
have some religious beliefs.
So what are those beliefs andwhat makes them who they are?
And, and why am I Christian andnot these other religions?
And.
How did my ancestors come toaccept Christianity as opposed
to how some of these otherreligions ancestors came to
accept their religions?
(07:23):
And I think I, I found that tobe very intriguing and probably
was part of my, initialdeparture away from the church
around that time.
Peggy Griffith (07:33):
Yeah.
And you know, I definitely hearyou there.
I I had similar questionsgrowing up too and, I do
remember being a young child andasking my mom, like, where, why
were there so many differentreligions?
And which one was better?
Well, I mean, that was when,when you're kind of young,
that's a deep question, and Iknow it sounds overly
(07:56):
simplistic, but she, she said,well, you know how now I'm from
small town in Kentucky, so thathopefully that'll make sense.
So to what I'm saying.
But um, she said, well, youknow how the courthouse is in
the middle of town and sometimeswe take Main Street to get
there, and other times we takeShelby Street to get there.
We're all just trying to getthere.
And one route's not necessarilybetter than the other.
Matt Adams (08:19):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (08:20):
And I know that sounds like so simplistic, but
I've always sat with thatexplanation for a long time.
And I've also come to notequate religion with my
relationship with God.
Matt Adams (08:35):
I think that's very fair.
Peggy Griffith (08:36):
yeah.
And I think that's a topic forlike, we could have a whole
nother conversation.
I'll have to have you back onthat.
'cause I think that could be areally fascinating conversation.
Uh, but as it relates to yourearly questioning of religion,
would you say that part of thatunbelief is somewhat rooted in a
religious notion of biblicaland errancy, or maybe
(08:58):
contradiction that you wereseeing in the Bible, like, God
is love.
But then why does God let badthings happen or something else?
Matt Adams (09:08):
Um, you know, that's a good question too.
I don't really think that,played a part as much.
I think there was definitelysome irony that I noticed from a
very young age, of seeingthings like talking about God's
love, but then using God to hateother people was probably a
classic example.
And I think one of the.
The first that I probablynoticed was, the treatment of
(09:30):
homosexuality, among thefollowers and not all followers,
of course, you know, this isagain, one of those, some
Christians believe certainthings and some don't.
But, we were definitely taughtthat, God loved everybody.
Jesus.
Loved everyone.
He hung out with the lowerrungs of society.
He was more about caring forthe sick and he was, definitely,
(09:52):
not one to wag his finger atpeople and condemn them or
anything like that.
He was more love everybody.
Um, this is who is blessed, etcetera.
And, I think I became friendswith some some homosexuals over
the years and realized thatthese were not bad people.
(10:12):
Probably like when peoplebecome friends with me and
realize that, maybe they've beentold that atheists are bad
people, but you know, they'rejust fine.
And many of them were religiousand many of them love God.
And many of them love theirfamily and, had committed
relationships.
But yet.
We're being very downcast bymembers of the church.
And that definitely did not sitwell with me.
(10:36):
But it didn't necessarily makeme distrustful of religion as a
whole.
It more made me just distrustor dislike some of those
followers.
So, um, I think one of thethings that probably stood out
for me.
That, that may have been partof my separation was the church
that I had attended since I wasa baby.
Around the time of my lateryears of high school.
(10:58):
As I was starting to questionthings, they decided to rebuild
their fellowship hall andremodel the entire church.
And part of that was that therewas other churches, in the
neighborhood that were alsogetting newer and updated
equipment and newer buildings.
And so they.
Felt they had to compete andother, and, they started doing a
(11:20):
lot of aggressive fundraising.
They brought in professionalfundraisers.
They had members of the churchgive really, impassioned
speeches about how giving to thechurch had made their.
Lives better and so forth.
And, and it kind of got mewondering about whether God is,
about the flash, about thetechnology, about whether
(11:41):
churches really should becompeting with each other.
And I think that was alsoprobably part of my separation,
but I still believe that for themost part, that God truly.
Focusing on God as love isdefinitely a better option.
Peggy Griffith (11:58):
Yeah, and I think your comments, are very.
Timely.
And I think they're veryrelevant for today.
When you think about, the valueof where the church is, it's
the building itself versus whatit is for the community.
Right?
Matt Adams (12:17):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (12:18):
Um, and so many congregations and church
leaders, I think are ponderingthat question of what is the
value of.
Church, and if they're not,well, that's another
conversation for anotherepisode.
Matt Adams (12:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you certainly see, youknow, nothing against them, but
you see a lot of themegachurches, with the Joel Oste
and so forth as the pastors andyou know, pastors living in $40
million mansions and buildingsthat are, super elaborate with
parking decks and you know, allthe technology you can think of,
and thousands of peopleattending every week and
(12:55):
everyone tithing to the church.
And, it just kind of makes youwonder if that church is better
than, a little podunk church ina quiet little town for really
meeting the needs and bringingpeople closer to God.
Peggy Griffith (13:11):
That makes so much sense.
And I think that.
Religion.
I put up my little air quotesreligion as it has been
constructed and organized byhumans over time.
Um, it's gotten to a pointwhere, as I've discussed with my
pastor and with others, thatit's going through a great
unraveling and that's a goodthing.
(13:34):
Questioning, I think the valuethat the church brings to its
community and to its people.
To the world should continuallybe a part of a church life and
a church's existence.
Um, yeah, there's been a lot ofpain and hurt, even death in
(13:56):
the name of religion and I don'tthink that's what God intends
for humanity.
Matt Adams (14:02):
I, I would agree with you very much.
Yeah.
Peggy Griffith (14:06):
So in a conversation that we had a
couple of weeks ago, when wewere planning for this podcast,
you mentioned that you have notfound or seen evidence or proof
that God exists.
I would love to hear more aboutthat.
What does that evidence mean toyou?
Matt Adams (14:22):
Sure.
Well, there's an old joke, andI would love to take credit for
it, but I, I certainly can'twhere, a religious person would
say God can do anything to whichthe atheist would reply, have
him say hello.
Evidence of God used to befound in all kinds of different
sources, and over the years, Godhas meant many different
things.
And so, it used to be that ifthe rains fell or didn't, or if
(14:46):
the weather was good or bad, orthat the, that the harvest was
good or not.
It was either because the Godor the gods, or the ancestors or
whatever you want to call it,that invisible being had either
been pleased or angered by whatyou were doing.
And, I think people tend toassociate things that are good
(15:09):
and pleasing with God.
So they might look at abeautiful sunset and maybe a
view of the Grand Canyon and.
Something that really inspiresawe, you know, a, a view of the
Swiss Alps from right up next tohim and say, wow, this is
really amazing.
This is proof that God existsand that he created this.
But you rarely see it on theother side, so, a mundane sunset
(15:34):
or a boring state.
You know, I would hate to pickon any particular state because
I'm sure you have listeners andall of them, but I had the
opportunity to drive throughNorth Dakota a couple of months
ago, and it is just awful.
It is boring.
There's nothing to look at.
There's no hills, there's noanimals, there's nothing.
There's nothing great, andnobody would really.
Drive through that experienceand say clearly God is present
(15:58):
here because he gave us thisbeauty.
And so I think it's alsoimportant to remember that what
one person might, identify as amiracle or proof of God's
existence.
Another person might look at asa curse or as very bad news.
(16:18):
And one of the examples thatcame to mind when we were
discussing this earlier wassomeone who needs a new heart or
another critical organ and theyfinally get the news that they
can get one that could be seenas a miracle, but the fact that
they're getting that heart meansthat someone else.
(16:40):
Got very bad news.
Someone else passed awayunexpectedly.
Often a very young person,maybe in a car crash, maybe, in
some type of a suicide or maybesome other horrific accident.
That's why.
They no longer need the heart,but that's why someone else gets
to use the heart.
So, what could be a miracle toone person may definitely not be
(17:02):
a miracle to someone else.
So me personally, I can't sayI've ever seen anything, that
would be evidence of God thatcouldn't be explained by
something else.
Peggy Griffith (17:15):
I hear that, you know, as humans we do tend to
lump all the things we can'texplain into an act of God.
If things are great, it's agift from God.
If things aren't well, then itmust be God's will.
Matt Adams (17:29):
Mm-hmm.
Or part of a part of God's planthat we just don't understand
yet.
Peggy Griffith (17:34):
Yeah.
Grief and lament are very real.
Very human.
And the examples you justmentioned just made me stop in
my tracks a little bit, becauseI really think I'm thinking
about how a grieving family maybe experiencing that example
(17:56):
that you mentioned.
And then recognize my call.
To comfort and show grace, notto remind them that it's so
great that their loved one wasan organ donor.
Matt Adams (18:13):
Sure.
Peggy Griffith (18:14):
That doesn't help, them get through their
grief.
But yeah, that it's veryprofound, Matt.
Speaker (18:25):
Well, this concludes part one of my interview with
Matt, and next week's episodewe'll dive into questions about
ethics and morality, divineintervention prayer, and how
both religious and non-religiouspeople might work together to
do good in the world.
I hope you found thisconversation enlightening today.
(18:47):
There are parts of Matt's storythat I hear all too often from
people who have fallen away fromtheir faith.
I realize some of what youheard today might have sounded
uncomfortable, but I hope you'llsit with that a little bit and
maybe ponder how Matt's storymight impact how we are to show
up as God's people in the world.
(19:08):
How might we approachmeaningful conversations free of
judgment with others whobelieve or don't believe the
same things we do?
I really look forward tocontinuing this conversation
next week.
So be sure to click that followor subscribe button wherever
(19:28):
you listen to podcasts.
And until we meet again nextweek, I wish you all a blessed
week ahead and to stayencouraged everyone and as I
usually end each episode with ablessing from the book of
numbers, chapter three, I askedMatt if he was comfortable with
this, and of course, being thegood sport he is, he said, okay.
So may the Lord bless you andkeep you.
(19:51):
The Lord make his face to shineupon you and be gracious to
you.
The Lord turn his face towardsyou and give you peace.
Amen.
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides.  Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer  Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.