May 28, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode of Next Door Gospel, host Peggy Griffith continues her conversation with her friend Matt, who identifies as an atheist. They discuss the foundations of ethics and morality from an atheist perspective, Matt's views on divine intervention and prayer, and the importance of following one's beliefs. They also explore the potential for collaboration between religious and non-religious people in supporting charitable causes, and the significance of genuine dialogue and mutual respect in understanding differing viewpoints. The episode emphasizes listening with love and an open mind.
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Episode Transcript
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Peggy Griffith (00:10):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to Next DoorGospel.
I'm your host, Peggy Griffith,and I'm so delighted that you
are choosing to spend a portionof your day with us.
Whether you're listening whiledriving somewhere, doing chores,
or just taking a break foryourself, I hope you are all
doing wonderfully and enjoyingsome of the new light and life
(00:33):
that the springtime offers.
Today we're going to listen intopart two of my conversation with
my friend Matt, who identifiesas an atheist.
But first, I wanna express myappreciation to Matt for being
willing to explore some opendialogue about his journey.
It takes a lot of courage, notjust to be a guest on a podcast,
(00:56):
but to share such a personalpart of one's life with others
who likely have a pretty strongfeeling about the subject
matter.
And I've also gotten some greatfeedback from you, on Part one,
and I love it.
I appreciate hearing how theseconversations resonate with you.
(01:17):
I hope these episodes spark someimportant thought and further
dialogue regarding how we mightapproach our understanding of
people who believe differentlythan we do.
And as I mentioned in the priorepisode, neither Matt nor I set
out to convince or convert oneanother to our own ways of
thinking.
There are some very meaningfulconclusions, lessons, and
(01:40):
insights that we can gain whenwe actively listen to one
another.
So let's listen in.
So prior to this podcast, Ireached out to several friends
and asked them if you could askan atheist anything, what would
it be?
And I know you're a good sport,you've always been a good sport.
(02:01):
So I'd like to ask one of themain questions, that were coming
up and being asked, and that is,what framework or foundation do
you apply?
When approaching questions ofethics and morality in your
life.
Matt Adams (02:17):
Sure.
And, and there's another, youknow, probably fairly famous
quote that I would love to takecredit for, but it's probably
been said by many atheists overthe years and, um, someone asked
an atheist.
What's to stop you from rapingand murdering all that you want
to, which the atheist wouldrespond.
(02:38):
I do rape and murder all I want.
It just so happens that theamount that I want is zero
because I'm a good person and Iwouldn't want anyone to do those
things to me.
So.
I tend to think that trying tofollow the Bible as a source of
morality is okay, and there'sdefinitely a lot of good stuff
(02:58):
in there, but there's also a lotof things that society has
determined are no longeracceptable.
Perfect examples are slavery andpolygamy.
Things that in biblical timeswere perfectly normal and were
even written about.
As if it were just commonthings.
But now society has changed and.
(03:21):
Whether I was religious or not,whether I was an atheist or not,
I personally would not agreewith owning slaves or with
having multiple spouses.
So where I get my guidance fromis I think where a lot of people
truly get their guidance from,and it's covered in almost every
religion.
So there's a chart that I sawone time that I would love to
(03:45):
post on my wall, and it had.
Religious symbols from maybe 15,20 different religions, and it
had the quote from thatreligious text for that religion
pertaining to the golden rule.
So pretty much every religionhas a form of the golden rule,
and in many cases, it's actuallyalmost the exact same phrasing.
(04:07):
It's do unto others as you'dhave done to you.
I agree with that and I tend tothink that, I would not want
someone to steal from me, so Iwill not steal from someone
else.
I would not want someone tomurder me, so I won't murder
anyone else.
I would want others to treat mewith respect, so I will treat
(04:28):
others with respect.
If I did have things that wereagainst the religion that I was
doing, for example, if I weregay, which I'm not, but I have
no objection to it.
If I were gay, would I want tobe penalized for that as exists
in many societies, includingsome Christian families where,
(04:48):
you know, many homosexual teensand.
And, older have been ostracizedfrom their families.
In many countries, they may beput in jail or even put to
death.
Me personally, if I were gay, Iwould not want to be put to
death or be put in jail for it.
So I wouldn't want to, expectthat of anyone else that was not
(05:11):
committing a crime that impactedother people.
So that's probably where I getit from.
Peggy Griffith (05:16):
me too.
Matt Adams (05:17):
Yeah.
Peggy Griffith (05:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fair.
Very fair.
Many people, of faith describepersonal experiences that feel
like divine encounters, answeredprayers or a sense of a presence
among them.
Growing up in a family with astrong faith background and
having some of the experiencesthat you did, I would imagine
(05:40):
you have experienced orwitnessed, some of these types
of things yourself.
And how do you make sense ofthese experiences from your
perspective now?
Matt Adams (05:50):
Well, I think there's a lot of things that
could be attributed to divineintervention or seen as an
answer or prayer simply becausethey worked out the way that we
wanted.
Uh, you know, we mentionedbefore that if things work out
the way we wanted, we might say,oh, it's an answer to prayer.
I.
If they don't, we might justsay, well, it's part of God's
plan and we don't quiteunderstand what that means.
(06:12):
One of the songs, I think that,that, brings this up is Garth
Brooks had a song aboutunanswered prayer and the, in
the song he's singing about howhe goes to a high school
football game and he runs intohis old high school girlfriend.
And, when he was in high school,he had wanted nothing more than
to be with this girl and wantedto marry her, wanted to be with
(06:32):
her forever, and.
Things didn't work out that way.
And instead he ended up meetinghis current wife and they fell
in love.
And when he tried to look backon his memories from high school
with this other girl, hecouldn't really think of much
that was really all thatspectacular compared to what
he'd experienced as a result.
So it certainly would bepossible to say, well, God
(06:54):
clearly had a hand in this.
And he drew, the situation,realized that this.
Person was not correct for meand that I should be with this
other person.
But then it's also important toremember that, you know, no
offense to Garth, but he's alsobeen divorced and married
several times.
And maybe it's not God's hand,but it's really just things that
(07:17):
worked out in the way that theydid.
Another example is I remember asituation when I was, still
going to church where a friendthat was very religious, prayed
and prayed and prayed about ajob that they really wanted, and
they got the job.
And of course it was a, ananswer to prayer, but it didn't
(07:39):
come out of nowhere.
I mean, he also spent a lot oftime learning the things he
needed for the job, doing thebackground on the company,
learning the skills that heneeded so that when he went to
apply for the job, he was thecorrect fit for it.
There's another quote that Ilike.
It's actually from Pope Franciswhere he said, first you pray
(08:00):
for the hungry, then you feedthem.
That's how prayer works.
I think too often we fall intothe habit of, sending our
prayers when we don't want to doanything else.
And I, I won't go into a ton ofexamples on that, but, you know,
there's definitely situationswhere someone might say, well,
I'm praying for you, or, sendingmy thoughts and prayers, but
(08:22):
they're not actually doinganything to improve the
situation.
And so, to me that's not quitehow prayer works.
You first, you pray for thehungry and then you feed them
because that's how prayer works.
Peggy Griffith (08:34):
Yeah.
Well, and, and you're right.
And Pope Francis, makes a verygood point there.
'Cause that's a very fascinatinginsight and it is so easy to
lean on.
I mean, prayer is one of thosethings, at least for me, it's a
part of my life of, I, I feellike every day I have
conversations with God that arein my heart.
I'm not out.
Walk in the streets, people likewho's she talking to?
(08:56):
But it's just part of myeveryday dialogue.
Matt Adams (09:01):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (09:03):
it's really easy to, Hey, hey, I'm kind of in
this rough situation.
I need to find a way out of it.
God, I, help me, deliver me fromthis rough situation.
It's easy to say I prayed, butnothing happened.
And, I read a quote I from CSLewis said very similar to what
(09:27):
Pope Francis said, said, I don'tpray to change God, it changes
me.
Matt Adams (09:34):
That's a good one.
Peggy Griffith (09:36):
So I think there's quite a parallel in our
thinking there.
And I think it's something thatthose of us who are Christians
it need to kind of remember isthat when we are praying, it's,
we're praying to for ourselvesto change.
We're not asking for, you know,God to wave some pixie dust and,
Matt Adams (09:59):
Yeah.
Peggy Griffith (10:00):
every, everything magically gets
better.
Matt Adams (10:03):
Well, I think in one of our conversations years ago,
we had talked about, maybe wehad talked about it more
recently, but we had talkedabout prayer and if someone were
to say they were praying for mefor something like if some of
your followers were listening tothe podcast and, wanted to say a
silent prayer for me, that Iwould turn around or that I
would change my beliefs orwhatever that happened to be.
(10:25):
I was at a.
Anniversary gathering from myparents many years ago.
And one of the, members of thechurch said, oh, we're praying
for you on a regular basis.
And one way to take that mightbe, we don't like you, we want
you to change, but it could alsomean we want what's best for
you, and we are concerned withyou and we want, what would be
(10:49):
the best outcome for you?
So.
Different atheists might reactdifferently to that.
So if someone came up to themand said, I'm praying for you.
Well, an atheist who's a jerkmight say, well, why don't you?
You don't wanna talk to yourimaginary friend or whatever.
I personally wouldn't, as longas I knew that the person meant
(11:09):
it from their heart and thatthey actually did care about me,
did care about my wellbeing, andtruly wanted the best.
For me and we're praying for, Iwould be very moved by that.
I would be very appreciative.
I think it's a powerful thing.
Prayer has been proven to havepositive effect on people.
(11:29):
Even if it's a, like taking aplacebo pill.
Even if it's just that youbelieve that it will work, the
fact that it works can't bedenied.
And so to that, I think it's avery good thing altogether.
And an atheist might see it moreas meditation rather than
prayer.
Maybe it's just a silent,thought to myself about how
(11:53):
things are going and how theycould be improved and if there's
anything I could do to improvethem.
Whereas a Christian might seethat as prayer to a higher power
to a God.
Then all the better.
It's almost definitely gonnahave a good outcome no matter
what.
Peggy Griffith (12:11):
Yeah.
Would you say that in your viewthat your parents or me or those
who, have a belief in God, wouldyou say that they are mistaken
in their beliefs or justinterpreting a human experience
through a different lens?
Matt Adams (12:33):
Well, I don't think that beliefs can be wrong,
really.
I think that's a very deepquestion, but I don't think that
you are wrong or that you aremistaken, or that anyone in my
parents' church or in myextended fam, I don't believe
that anyone is wrong.
I think that some people havestronger senses of faith than
(12:53):
others, and I can only commendthem for that.
I cannot put them down for that.
I think that's a positive thing.
When there are things that Icouldn't personally be satisfied
by, others may be able to usetheir faith to kind of fill in
the gaps, and I think that'sperfectly fine.
(13:15):
I personally couldn't.
And maybe that's a shortcomingon my side.
But you know, others have haddifferent experiences in life.
I strongly encourage people tofollow their beliefs.
You know, you were talking aboutdivine intervention.
Many people think that they'vehad direct communication or
experiences that prove that Godis real and I would never try
(13:38):
to.
Negate that or try to talk themout of it or try to explain why
I disagree.
And, if there was ever asituation where religion was,
legally mandated or forbidden, Iwould have.
I would have major issue withthat.
(13:58):
I, if someone said, that Peggy,you can't believe in God because
we are no longer a Christiancountry.
I mean, that's not indicative ofcurrent times, but there's
certainly been some, governmentsituations where that's been the
case and where believers are,know, forced into.
Denying their faith or thingslike that.
And I would have a great concernabout that.
(14:19):
If someone said you couldn'tbelieve in God, or that, you
couldn't worship Vishnu or thatyou couldn't handle snakes as
part of your religion orwhatever the case might be, I
personally wouldn't find thatacceptable.
I think that your experiencesare just as valid as mine.
And I certainly wouldn't agreewith anyone who would try to
take that away from you or saythat you're wrong.
Peggy Griffith (14:44):
That makes sense.
And I think, when we've talkedabout that in the past, the idea
being is that, as well, youwouldn't want to have it forced
on you, um, on the, on theopposite side of that to it be
like, well, it's Christianityand that, and that's it.
And it's forced on you whetheryou believe it or you don't.
Yeah.
(15:04):
Now, over the years I've knownyou and I know that we share a
lot of common values, and youhave supported a lot of causes
that you care about.
I have seen you run literallyhundreds.
Have you reached a thousandmiles?
I bet you have.
Matt Adams (15:22):
Oh, year, years ago, I'm sure.
Peggy Griffith (15:24):
Yes.
Yeah, I have seen you just runmiles and miles and miles to
raise money for incrediblecharities.
Uh, so when it comes to doinggood in the world, what areas do
you see for potentialcollaboration between religious
and non-religious people?
I.
Matt Adams (15:38):
Well, actually it's interesting because I listened
to one of your recent podcasts.
I believe it was with Pattyfrom, the Red Cross and, about
disaster recovery.
And to me, I think there's a lotof, there's a lot of overlap of
causes that are very goodcauses, regardless of your
religion.
And really it comes down to whatyou have a personal connection
(16:02):
with, either direct or indirect.
You use the example in thatpodcast, about how your area had
been affected by a flood and theRed Cross had, helped out in the
area, so you had good feelingstowards the Red Cross.
Someone else who didn't have oneof those same experiences may
still hear of the Red Cross.
May say it's a goodorganization, but probably
(16:23):
wouldn't donate any of theirtime or money to it.
So ultimately it's aboutconnection and you know what
really is an important what?
What is true to your heart?
And so over the years, I'vedefinitely supported a number of
charities that used to beinvolved.
Very involved with a, an animalshelter in Denver that I was, I
(16:47):
volunteer for, but I was thevolunteer coordinator.
I did their merchandise.
I did a lot of different thingsto the point where I was
volunteering probably 40 to 50hours a week, on a regular
basis, and definitely had greatpassion for that animal shelter.
And I still do have greatpassion for animals.
At the same time, we would oftenbe doing fundraising or out in
(17:10):
the community, and we would hearfrom someone who would say
something like, well, why areyou raising money for animals
when there's homeless people onthe street?
And the fact of the matter is.
Typically it would be fromsomeone who also would not help
homeless people, or someone who,might say, why are we doing this
when veterans can't get goodhomes, but yet aren't doing
(17:31):
anything to help those veteranseither.
So, whether it's raising fundsor donating time, They've always
been causes that I've had someconnection to either my love for
animals.
I raise a lot of money forNational MS.
Society, which is multiplesclerosis, mainly because I have
a friend and neighbor who isaffected by it.
(17:51):
And I also have a formercoworkers, husband who's very
severely, affected by it.
And to me, it's something I cando to try to help.
But if nobody has, if someoneelse doesn't have that
connection, then I certainlycouldn't fault them for that
either.
I would think that no matter whoyou were, we'd all love to see
an end to things like cancer.
(18:13):
Anyone who's been, even heardabout the impacts of Alzheimer's
or dementia would want to seethat being treated someday.
But we all have limiteddisposable income and limited
time.
So really I think it's justeveryone needs to give what
their heart call calls them to.
Me personally, I probablywouldn't donate much time or
(18:36):
money to.
Something I don't necessarilyconnect with.
If someone was raising funds fora mission trip or for a church
outing or a religious school orsomething like that, I may
donate a little bit to help outa friend, but I wouldn't give
out of the bottom of my heartbecause I really wouldn't have
that connection.
(18:58):
So give to what your heart callsyou to, I guess.
Peggy Griffith (19:02):
Sure.
Yeah when it comes to havingproductive dialogue with people,
particularly who have differentviewpoints, I think what's great
about this conversation is thatwe're approaching it like, Hey,
we've got something to learnfrom one another.
And not just that we havesomething to teach someone,
Matt Adams (19:19):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (19:19):
that we have something to learn.
And, and both religious andnon-religious people sometimes
fall into stereotyping oneanother.
As you said earlier, somethingalong the lines of religious
people aren't all anti-scienceand critical un thinkers and
atheists aren't all lost soulslacking a moral compass.
I think we've uncovered thattoday.
(19:41):
So mutual respect and curiositygo a long way in trying to seek
first to understand.
So as we wrap up ourconversation today, I'm curious,
what.
Question, do you wish religiouspeople would ask more often?
Matt Adams (20:00):
I think I would love to see religious people of all
faiths regularly ask themselveswhy they believe what they
believe, and if their actionsmatch those beliefs.
Does religion truly bring outtheir best, or does it serve as
a method or a justification forhatred of some kind?
Are they going to church becausethey believe it's a societal
(20:20):
family or community expectation?
Or is it because they truly getsomething out of it and feel
that their life is better orthat their relationship with God
is better, as a result?
I think if a lot of peoplereally dwelled on that and, ask
themselves that on occasion, Ithink that would help.
I would think that would help alot.
Peggy Griffith (20:39):
Yeah, I like that.
Is there a question you wish youcould ask religious believers
more often?
Matt Adams (20:47):
Well, without getting mean-spirited or
anything, I think a goodquestion would be, do you love
Jesus?
And if yes, then.
Do you believe that you followJesus' teachings?
And if so, can you explain how,I think part of what I was
alluding to earlier was thepeople that go to church and say
they believe in Jesus, believein God, but then don't show it.
(21:09):
They don't act it at all.
They don't act Christ-like atall.
And so, there's certainly manyChristians out there who I.
Truly believe do follow theseteachings of Jesus and want to
help society and they wanna makethings better.
But I think they're starting tobecome a smaller subset and I
(21:30):
think in recent years.
Not all of them, of course, butI think a lot of churches have
started to take on verypolitical stances on things
ranging from covid tohealthcare, to homelessness, to
immigration, and many of thesestances may be directly
contradictory to the exactteachings of Jesus.
(21:51):
There was a story recently aboutsome pastors who had actually
been, punished and some that hadbeen asked to leave for
preaching about things like theBeatitudes, the Sermon on the
Mount and what makes a personblessed or not.
Because the followers felt thatwas very woke, and wasn't
something that we should beteaching about because it went
(22:13):
contrary to views and that.
That caring for the sick couldbe viewed as socialism, even
though Jesus, did it on theregular basis.
And so, I think that's probablywhat I'd ask is if you really
say that you love God, that youlove Jesus, what are you doing
to prove it?
Peggy Griffith (22:30):
Sure.
And I think, one point, toobeing I think people can tend
to, take things out of contextmake religion or make God fit a
mold that they think it shouldbe,
Matt Adams (22:51):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (22:54):
based on their human understanding.
That as we know, is limited.
And, I think, if you are someonewho is an, I'm gonna use the
word outsider to Christianity,meaning that you maybe weren't
(23:15):
raised, with that, and you'relooking at someone who is, and
you're thinking, wait, this, I'mseeing contradictions here.
And it's probably frustrating,and.
To your point earlier, it'sleading with love is you can't
(23:35):
go wrong.
There's no, no laws against,against love and understanding.
There's no, no law no againstthat.
Matt Adams (23:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Peggy Griffith (23:46):
and so I think that's where that delicate line
can be.
Matt Adams (23:51):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (23:53):
Well, you mentioned that you aren't really
out, so to speak with your,atheist beliefs, at least among
your family, and why is that anddo you see that changing at some
point?
Matt Adams (24:07):
I'm certainly not ashamed, of who I am, but I'm
also, I don't pretend to besomeone I'm not.
I'm sure there's certainlypeople that are atheists, but go
to church because it's easierthan, admitting to those around
them that they're not.
So, I don't attend churchservices to pretend to be a good
Christian, for example.
I'm, but I'm also not fully outof the closet, I guess you could
(24:29):
say, is that, I think if I cameout as gay to, to certain family
or religious friends, I thinkthat could be forgiven.
Coming out as an atheist I thinkmay just be too much.
There's plenty of stories ofbeing.
People being ostracized fromtheir family or from the
community for not sharing thesame beliefs.
And while I doubt that wouldhappen, and I really have no
(24:51):
dependency on anyone to thepoint where it would impact my
life significantly, even if Iwas, excommunicated or
ostracized or whatever you wantto call it.
But I also see no reason to behurtful or disrespectful.
And I know that those, peoplethat are close to me, they know
that I'm not religious and I'mokay with that, and I wouldn't
try to change their minds in anyway.
(25:12):
And just like I doubt they'd beable to change mine.
So the last things I'd want isfrom my beliefs to, negatively
impact or to, emotionally injureanyone who cares about me.
So I don't see that changing.
Peggy Griffith (25:27):
What are your thoughts about this podcast?
Should I change your name?
Matt Adams (25:31):
No, it's okay if I think if someone listens to it,
then we'll just call it the willof God.
How about that?
Peggy Griffith (25:36):
Oh.
I hear you saying you don't wantto go outta your way to
potentially hurt someone whocares about you.
And I think that says a lotabout you, Matt.
And I wanna thank you for youropen and thoughtful
conversation.
(25:57):
I think it's an extension of theinteractions that we've had,
over the years and again, it'salso the ways that you bring so
much positivity to this worldand dialogue like this really
helps people understand oneanother better and we are living
in a very polarized world, so Ithink that's very important.
(26:21):
So I thank you for that.
Matt Adams (26:22):
Sure.
It's been a, it's been apleasure and, I hope you can, if
it works out in the future, thatyou can use me in future
episodes If there's ever, a usefor me in the future, I'm happy
to be on again, even if it'sjust for a little three minute,
Hey, we're talking about thiswith another guest.
What's your perspective?
I love answering questions likethat.
Peggy Griffith (26:38):
Well, I think just even in this episode, we've
come up with two other topicsfor a podcast.
So I think there's plenty totalk about in this space.
And to our listeners, thank youfor joining us for this episode
of Next Door Gospel.
I love sharing this time withyou.
I hope this conversation with myfriend Matt, has given you some
(26:59):
perspective to considerremembering that understanding
doesn't require agreement, butit does require listening with
love and an open mind.
So be sure to click the followor the subscribe button wherever
you listen to your podcast.
And until we meet again, I wishyou a blessed week ahead and as
(27:20):
I typically end each episodewith a blessing from numbers
chapter six.
I asked Matt if he wascomfortable with this and, if he
was comfortable with a blessing,and he said, okay, so may the
Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make his face to shineupon you and be gracious to you.
The Lord turn his face towardsyou and give you peace.
(27:43):
Amen.
And stay encouraged everyone.
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Adams (27:48):
Thank you.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to Next DoorGospel.
I'm your host, Peggy Griffith,and I'm so delighted that you
are choosing to spend a portionof your day with us.
Whether you're listening whiledriving somewhere, doing chores,
or just taking a break foryourself, I hope you are all
doing wonderfully and enjoyingsome of the new light and life
(00:33):
that the springtime offers.
Today we're going to listen intopart two of my conversation with
my friend Matt, who identifiesas an atheist.
But first, I wanna express myappreciation to Matt for being
willing to explore some opendialogue about his journey.
It takes a lot of courage, notjust to be a guest on a podcast,
(00:56):
but to share such a personalpart of one's life with others
who likely have a pretty strongfeeling about the subject
matter.
And I've also gotten some greatfeedback from you, on Part one,
and I love it.
I appreciate hearing how theseconversations resonate with you.
(01:17):
I hope these episodes spark someimportant thought and further
dialogue regarding how we mightapproach our understanding of
people who believe differentlythan we do.
And as I mentioned in the priorepisode, neither Matt nor I set
out to convince or convert oneanother to our own ways of
thinking.
There are some very meaningfulconclusions, lessons, and
(01:40):
insights that we can gain whenwe actively listen to one
another.
So let's listen in.
So prior to this podcast, Ireached out to several friends
and asked them if you could askan atheist anything, what would
it be?
And I know you're a good sport,you've always been a good sport.
(02:01):
So I'd like to ask one of themain questions, that were coming
up and being asked, and that is,what framework or foundation do
you apply?
When approaching questions ofethics and morality in your
life.
Matt Adams (02:17):
Sure.
And, and there's another, youknow, probably fairly famous
quote that I would love to takecredit for, but it's probably
been said by many atheists overthe years and, um, someone asked
an atheist.
What's to stop you from rapingand murdering all that you want
to, which the atheist wouldrespond.
(02:38):
I do rape and murder all I want.
It just so happens that theamount that I want is zero
because I'm a good person and Iwouldn't want anyone to do those
things to me.
So.
I tend to think that trying tofollow the Bible as a source of
morality is okay, and there'sdefinitely a lot of good stuff
(02:58):
in there, but there's also a lotof things that society has
determined are no longeracceptable.
Perfect examples are slavery andpolygamy.
Things that in biblical timeswere perfectly normal and were
even written about.
As if it were just commonthings.
But now society has changed and.
(03:21):
Whether I was religious or not,whether I was an atheist or not,
I personally would not agreewith owning slaves or with
having multiple spouses.
So where I get my guidance fromis I think where a lot of people
truly get their guidance from,and it's covered in almost every
religion.
So there's a chart that I sawone time that I would love to
(03:45):
post on my wall, and it had.
Religious symbols from maybe 15,20 different religions, and it
had the quote from thatreligious text for that religion
pertaining to the golden rule.
So pretty much every religionhas a form of the golden rule,
and in many cases, it's actuallyalmost the exact same phrasing.
(04:07):
It's do unto others as you'dhave done to you.
I agree with that and I tend tothink that, I would not want
someone to steal from me, so Iwill not steal from someone
else.
I would not want someone tomurder me, so I won't murder
anyone else.
I would want others to treat mewith respect, so I will treat
(04:28):
others with respect.
If I did have things that wereagainst the religion that I was
doing, for example, if I weregay, which I'm not, but I have
no objection to it.
If I were gay, would I want tobe penalized for that as exists
in many societies, includingsome Christian families where,
(04:48):
you know, many homosexual teensand.
And, older have been ostracizedfrom their families.
In many countries, they may beput in jail or even put to
death.
Me personally, if I were gay, Iwould not want to be put to
death or be put in jail for it.
So I wouldn't want to, expectthat of anyone else that was not
(05:11):
committing a crime that impactedother people.
So that's probably where I getit from.
Peggy Griffith (05:16):
me too.
Matt Adams (05:17):
Yeah.
Peggy Griffith (05:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fair.
Very fair.
Many people, of faith describepersonal experiences that feel
like divine encounters, answeredprayers or a sense of a presence
among them.
Growing up in a family with astrong faith background and
having some of the experiencesthat you did, I would imagine
(05:40):
you have experienced orwitnessed, some of these types
of things yourself.
And how do you make sense ofthese experiences from your
perspective now?
Matt Adams (05:50):
Well, I think there's a lot of things that
could be attributed to divineintervention or seen as an
answer or prayer simply becausethey worked out the way that we
wanted.
Uh, you know, we mentionedbefore that if things work out
the way we wanted, we might say,oh, it's an answer to prayer.
I.
If they don't, we might justsay, well, it's part of God's
plan and we don't quiteunderstand what that means.
(06:12):
One of the songs, I think that,that, brings this up is Garth
Brooks had a song aboutunanswered prayer and the, in
the song he's singing about howhe goes to a high school
football game and he runs intohis old high school girlfriend.
And, when he was in high school,he had wanted nothing more than
to be with this girl and wantedto marry her, wanted to be with
(06:32):
her forever, and.
Things didn't work out that way.
And instead he ended up meetinghis current wife and they fell
in love.
And when he tried to look backon his memories from high school
with this other girl, hecouldn't really think of much
that was really all thatspectacular compared to what
he'd experienced as a result.
So it certainly would bepossible to say, well, God
(06:54):
clearly had a hand in this.
And he drew, the situation,realized that this.
Person was not correct for meand that I should be with this
other person.
But then it's also important toremember that, you know, no
offense to Garth, but he's alsobeen divorced and married
several times.
And maybe it's not God's hand,but it's really just things that
(07:17):
worked out in the way that theydid.
Another example is I remember asituation when I was, still
going to church where a friendthat was very religious, prayed
and prayed and prayed about ajob that they really wanted, and
they got the job.
And of course it was a, ananswer to prayer, but it didn't
(07:39):
come out of nowhere.
I mean, he also spent a lot oftime learning the things he
needed for the job, doing thebackground on the company,
learning the skills that heneeded so that when he went to
apply for the job, he was thecorrect fit for it.
There's another quote that Ilike.
It's actually from Pope Franciswhere he said, first you pray
(08:00):
for the hungry, then you feedthem.
That's how prayer works.
I think too often we fall intothe habit of, sending our
prayers when we don't want to doanything else.
And I, I won't go into a ton ofexamples on that, but, you know,
there's definitely situationswhere someone might say, well,
I'm praying for you, or, sendingmy thoughts and prayers, but
(08:22):
they're not actually doinganything to improve the
situation.
And so, to me that's not quitehow prayer works.
You first, you pray for thehungry and then you feed them
because that's how prayer works.
Peggy Griffith (08:34):
Yeah.
Well, and, and you're right.
And Pope Francis, makes a verygood point there.
'Cause that's a very fascinatinginsight and it is so easy to
lean on.
I mean, prayer is one of thosethings, at least for me, it's a
part of my life of, I, I feellike every day I have
conversations with God that arein my heart.
I'm not out.
Walk in the streets, people likewho's she talking to?
(08:56):
But it's just part of myeveryday dialogue.
Matt Adams (09:01):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (09:03):
it's really easy to, Hey, hey, I'm kind of in
this rough situation.
I need to find a way out of it.
God, I, help me, deliver me fromthis rough situation.
It's easy to say I prayed, butnothing happened.
And, I read a quote I from CSLewis said very similar to what
(09:27):
Pope Francis said, said, I don'tpray to change God, it changes
me.
Matt Adams (09:34):
That's a good one.
Peggy Griffith (09:36):
So I think there's quite a parallel in our
thinking there.
And I think it's something thatthose of us who are Christians
it need to kind of remember isthat when we are praying, it's,
we're praying to for ourselvesto change.
We're not asking for, you know,God to wave some pixie dust and,
Matt Adams (09:59):
Yeah.
Peggy Griffith (10:00):
every, everything magically gets
better.
Matt Adams (10:03):
Well, I think in one of our conversations years ago,
we had talked about, maybe wehad talked about it more
recently, but we had talkedabout prayer and if someone were
to say they were praying for mefor something like if some of
your followers were listening tothe podcast and, wanted to say a
silent prayer for me, that Iwould turn around or that I
would change my beliefs orwhatever that happened to be.
(10:25):
I was at a.
Anniversary gathering from myparents many years ago.
And one of the, members of thechurch said, oh, we're praying
for you on a regular basis.
And one way to take that mightbe, we don't like you, we want
you to change, but it could alsomean we want what's best for
you, and we are concerned withyou and we want, what would be
(10:49):
the best outcome for you?
So.
Different atheists might reactdifferently to that.
So if someone came up to themand said, I'm praying for you.
Well, an atheist who's a jerkmight say, well, why don't you?
You don't wanna talk to yourimaginary friend or whatever.
I personally wouldn't, as longas I knew that the person meant
(11:09):
it from their heart and thatthey actually did care about me,
did care about my wellbeing, andtruly wanted the best.
For me and we're praying for, Iwould be very moved by that.
I would be very appreciative.
I think it's a powerful thing.
Prayer has been proven to havepositive effect on people.
(11:29):
Even if it's a, like taking aplacebo pill.
Even if it's just that youbelieve that it will work, the
fact that it works can't bedenied.
And so to that, I think it's avery good thing altogether.
And an atheist might see it moreas meditation rather than
prayer.
Maybe it's just a silent,thought to myself about how
(11:53):
things are going and how theycould be improved and if there's
anything I could do to improvethem.
Whereas a Christian might seethat as prayer to a higher power
to a God.
Then all the better.
It's almost definitely gonnahave a good outcome no matter
what.
Peggy Griffith (12:11):
Yeah.
Would you say that in your viewthat your parents or me or those
who, have a belief in God, wouldyou say that they are mistaken
in their beliefs or justinterpreting a human experience
through a different lens?
Matt Adams (12:33):
Well, I don't think that beliefs can be wrong,
really.
I think that's a very deepquestion, but I don't think that
you are wrong or that you aremistaken, or that anyone in my
parents' church or in myextended fam, I don't believe
that anyone is wrong.
I think that some people havestronger senses of faith than
(12:53):
others, and I can only commendthem for that.
I cannot put them down for that.
I think that's a positive thing.
When there are things that Icouldn't personally be satisfied
by, others may be able to usetheir faith to kind of fill in
the gaps, and I think that'sperfectly fine.
(13:15):
I personally couldn't.
And maybe that's a shortcomingon my side.
But you know, others have haddifferent experiences in life.
I strongly encourage people tofollow their beliefs.
You know, you were talking aboutdivine intervention.
Many people think that they'vehad direct communication or
experiences that prove that Godis real and I would never try
(13:38):
to.
Negate that or try to talk themout of it or try to explain why
I disagree.
And, if there was ever asituation where religion was,
legally mandated or forbidden, Iwould have.
I would have major issue withthat.
(13:58):
I, if someone said, that Peggy,you can't believe in God because
we are no longer a Christiancountry.
I mean, that's not indicative ofcurrent times, but there's
certainly been some, governmentsituations where that's been the
case and where believers are,know, forced into.
Denying their faith or thingslike that.
And I would have a great concernabout that.
(14:19):
If someone said you couldn'tbelieve in God, or that, you
couldn't worship Vishnu or thatyou couldn't handle snakes as
part of your religion orwhatever the case might be, I
personally wouldn't find thatacceptable.
I think that your experiencesare just as valid as mine.
And I certainly wouldn't agreewith anyone who would try to
take that away from you or saythat you're wrong.
Peggy Griffith (14:44):
That makes sense.
And I think, when we've talkedabout that in the past, the idea
being is that, as well, youwouldn't want to have it forced
on you, um, on the, on theopposite side of that to it be
like, well, it's Christianityand that, and that's it.
And it's forced on you whetheryou believe it or you don't.
Yeah.
(15:04):
Now, over the years I've knownyou and I know that we share a
lot of common values, and youhave supported a lot of causes
that you care about.
I have seen you run literallyhundreds.
Have you reached a thousandmiles?
I bet you have.
Matt Adams (15:22):
Oh, year, years ago, I'm sure.
Peggy Griffith (15:24):
Yes.
Yeah, I have seen you just runmiles and miles and miles to
raise money for incrediblecharities.
Uh, so when it comes to doinggood in the world, what areas do
you see for potentialcollaboration between religious
and non-religious people?
I.
Matt Adams (15:38):
Well, actually it's interesting because I listened
to one of your recent podcasts.
I believe it was with Pattyfrom, the Red Cross and, about
disaster recovery.
And to me, I think there's a lotof, there's a lot of overlap of
causes that are very goodcauses, regardless of your
religion.
And really it comes down to whatyou have a personal connection
(16:02):
with, either direct or indirect.
You use the example in thatpodcast, about how your area had
been affected by a flood and theRed Cross had, helped out in the
area, so you had good feelingstowards the Red Cross.
Someone else who didn't have oneof those same experiences may
still hear of the Red Cross.
May say it's a goodorganization, but probably
(16:23):
wouldn't donate any of theirtime or money to it.
So ultimately it's aboutconnection and you know what
really is an important what?
What is true to your heart?
And so over the years, I'vedefinitely supported a number of
charities that used to beinvolved.
Very involved with a, an animalshelter in Denver that I was, I
(16:47):
volunteer for, but I was thevolunteer coordinator.
I did their merchandise.
I did a lot of different thingsto the point where I was
volunteering probably 40 to 50hours a week, on a regular
basis, and definitely had greatpassion for that animal shelter.
And I still do have greatpassion for animals.
At the same time, we would oftenbe doing fundraising or out in
(17:10):
the community, and we would hearfrom someone who would say
something like, well, why areyou raising money for animals
when there's homeless people onthe street?
And the fact of the matter is.
Typically it would be fromsomeone who also would not help
homeless people, or someone who,might say, why are we doing this
when veterans can't get goodhomes, but yet aren't doing
(17:31):
anything to help those veteranseither.
So, whether it's raising fundsor donating time, They've always
been causes that I've had someconnection to either my love for
animals.
I raise a lot of money forNational MS.
Society, which is multiplesclerosis, mainly because I have
a friend and neighbor who isaffected by it.
(17:51):
And I also have a formercoworkers, husband who's very
severely, affected by it.
And to me, it's something I cando to try to help.
But if nobody has, if someoneelse doesn't have that
connection, then I certainlycouldn't fault them for that
either.
I would think that no matter whoyou were, we'd all love to see
an end to things like cancer.
(18:13):
Anyone who's been, even heardabout the impacts of Alzheimer's
or dementia would want to seethat being treated someday.
But we all have limiteddisposable income and limited
time.
So really I think it's justeveryone needs to give what
their heart call calls them to.
Me personally, I probablywouldn't donate much time or
(18:36):
money to.
Something I don't necessarilyconnect with.
If someone was raising funds fora mission trip or for a church
outing or a religious school orsomething like that, I may
donate a little bit to help outa friend, but I wouldn't give
out of the bottom of my heartbecause I really wouldn't have
that connection.
(18:58):
So give to what your heart callsyou to, I guess.
Peggy Griffith (19:02):
Sure.
Yeah when it comes to havingproductive dialogue with people,
particularly who have differentviewpoints, I think what's great
about this conversation is thatwe're approaching it like, Hey,
we've got something to learnfrom one another.
And not just that we havesomething to teach someone,
Matt Adams (19:19):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (19:19):
that we have something to learn.
And, and both religious andnon-religious people sometimes
fall into stereotyping oneanother.
As you said earlier, somethingalong the lines of religious
people aren't all anti-scienceand critical un thinkers and
atheists aren't all lost soulslacking a moral compass.
I think we've uncovered thattoday.
(19:41):
So mutual respect and curiositygo a long way in trying to seek
first to understand.
So as we wrap up ourconversation today, I'm curious,
what.
Question, do you wish religiouspeople would ask more often?
Matt Adams (20:00):
I think I would love to see religious people of all
faiths regularly ask themselveswhy they believe what they
believe, and if their actionsmatch those beliefs.
Does religion truly bring outtheir best, or does it serve as
a method or a justification forhatred of some kind?
Are they going to church becausethey believe it's a societal
(20:20):
family or community expectation?
Or is it because they truly getsomething out of it and feel
that their life is better orthat their relationship with God
is better, as a result?
I think if a lot of peoplereally dwelled on that and, ask
themselves that on occasion, Ithink that would help.
I would think that would help alot.
Peggy Griffith (20:39):
Yeah, I like that.
Is there a question you wish youcould ask religious believers
more often?
Matt Adams (20:47):
Well, without getting mean-spirited or
anything, I think a goodquestion would be, do you love
Jesus?
And if yes, then.
Do you believe that you followJesus' teachings?
And if so, can you explain how,I think part of what I was
alluding to earlier was thepeople that go to church and say
they believe in Jesus, believein God, but then don't show it.
(21:09):
They don't act it at all.
They don't act Christ-like atall.
And so, there's certainly manyChristians out there who I.
Truly believe do follow theseteachings of Jesus and want to
help society and they wanna makethings better.
But I think they're starting tobecome a smaller subset and I
(21:30):
think in recent years.
Not all of them, of course, butI think a lot of churches have
started to take on verypolitical stances on things
ranging from covid tohealthcare, to homelessness, to
immigration, and many of thesestances may be directly
contradictory to the exactteachings of Jesus.
(21:51):
There was a story recently aboutsome pastors who had actually
been, punished and some that hadbeen asked to leave for
preaching about things like theBeatitudes, the Sermon on the
Mount and what makes a personblessed or not.
Because the followers felt thatwas very woke, and wasn't
something that we should beteaching about because it went
(22:13):
contrary to views and that.
That caring for the sick couldbe viewed as socialism, even
though Jesus, did it on theregular basis.
And so, I think that's probablywhat I'd ask is if you really
say that you love God, that youlove Jesus, what are you doing
to prove it?
Peggy Griffith (22:30):
Sure.
And I think, one point, toobeing I think people can tend
to, take things out of contextmake religion or make God fit a
mold that they think it shouldbe,
Matt Adams (22:51):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (22:54):
based on their human understanding.
That as we know, is limited.
And, I think, if you are someonewho is an, I'm gonna use the
word outsider to Christianity,meaning that you maybe weren't
(23:15):
raised, with that, and you'relooking at someone who is, and
you're thinking, wait, this, I'mseeing contradictions here.
And it's probably frustrating,and.
To your point earlier, it'sleading with love is you can't
(23:35):
go wrong.
There's no, no laws against,against love and understanding.
There's no, no law no againstthat.
Matt Adams (23:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Peggy Griffith (23:46):
and so I think that's where that delicate line
can be.
Matt Adams (23:51):
Mm-hmm.
Peggy Griffith (23:53):
Well, you mentioned that you aren't really
out, so to speak with your,atheist beliefs, at least among
your family, and why is that anddo you see that changing at some
point?
Matt Adams (24:07):
I'm certainly not ashamed, of who I am, but I'm
also, I don't pretend to besomeone I'm not.
I'm sure there's certainlypeople that are atheists, but go
to church because it's easierthan, admitting to those around
them that they're not.
So, I don't attend churchservices to pretend to be a good
Christian, for example.
I'm, but I'm also not fully outof the closet, I guess you could
(24:29):
say, is that, I think if I cameout as gay to, to certain family
or religious friends, I thinkthat could be forgiven.
Coming out as an atheist I thinkmay just be too much.
There's plenty of stories ofbeing.
People being ostracized fromtheir family or from the
community for not sharing thesame beliefs.
And while I doubt that wouldhappen, and I really have no
(24:51):
dependency on anyone to thepoint where it would impact my
life significantly, even if Iwas, excommunicated or
ostracized or whatever you wantto call it.
But I also see no reason to behurtful or disrespectful.
And I know that those, peoplethat are close to me, they know
that I'm not religious and I'mokay with that, and I wouldn't
try to change their minds in anyway.
(25:12):
And just like I doubt they'd beable to change mine.
So the last things I'd want isfrom my beliefs to, negatively
impact or to, emotionally injureanyone who cares about me.
So I don't see that changing.
Peggy Griffith (25:27):
What are your thoughts about this podcast?
Should I change your name?
Matt Adams (25:31):
No, it's okay if I think if someone listens to it,
then we'll just call it the willof God.
How about that?
Peggy Griffith (25:36):
Oh.
I hear you saying you don't wantto go outta your way to
potentially hurt someone whocares about you.
And I think that says a lotabout you, Matt.
And I wanna thank you for youropen and thoughtful
conversation.
(25:57):
I think it's an extension of theinteractions that we've had,
over the years and again, it'salso the ways that you bring so
much positivity to this worldand dialogue like this really
helps people understand oneanother better and we are living
in a very polarized world, so Ithink that's very important.
(26:21):
So I thank you for that.
Matt Adams (26:22):
Sure.
It's been a, it's been apleasure and, I hope you can, if
it works out in the future, thatyou can use me in future
episodes If there's ever, a usefor me in the future, I'm happy
to be on again, even if it'sjust for a little three minute,
Hey, we're talking about thiswith another guest.
What's your perspective?
I love answering questions likethat.
Peggy Griffith (26:38):
Well, I think just even in this episode, we've
come up with two other topicsfor a podcast.
So I think there's plenty totalk about in this space.
And to our listeners, thank youfor joining us for this episode
of Next Door Gospel.
I love sharing this time withyou.
I hope this conversation with myfriend Matt, has given you some
(26:59):
perspective to considerremembering that understanding
doesn't require agreement, butit does require listening with
love and an open mind.
So be sure to click the followor the subscribe button wherever
you listen to your podcast.
And until we meet again, I wishyou a blessed week ahead and as
(27:20):
I typically end each episodewith a blessing from numbers
chapter six.
I asked Matt if he wascomfortable with this and, if he
was comfortable with a blessing,and he said, okay, so may the
Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make his face to shineupon you and be gracious to you.
The Lord turn his face towardsyou and give you peace.
(27:43):
Amen.
And stay encouraged everyone.
Thank you, Matt.
Matt Adams (27:48):
Thank you.
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