January 28, 2025 • 57 mins
The episode examines the intricacies of "Cross," shedding light on themes of grief, community dynamics, and police relationships while navigating the narrative complexities of Alex Cross. Through discussions about character development and societal issues, the conversation invites listeners to reflect on real-world implications as the series unfolds.
• Exploration of Alex Cross's character and his duality
• Discussion about the impact of his wife's murder on the narrative
• Representation of DC and the authenticity of local characters
• Analysis of police-community relations and trust issues
• Insights on the serial killer storyline and its implications
• Pondering the potential direction for season two
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Niq (00:01):
Hi guys, welcome to the next episode with Nick and Jess,
and today we are discussingCross, and so I'm really excited
about this show.
So Cross is actually based on abook, right?
Robert Patterson, jamesPatterson, james Patterson, you
(00:21):
know me, it's definitely a.
Jess (00:22):
Patterson.
Niq (00:23):
And names it's always a mean, it's definitely a
Patterson and names it's alwaysa problem.
It's always a problem.
So it's James Patterson.
Here's the thing I remember asa child reading an Alex Cross
book.
Have you ever read an AlexCross book?
I have, yeah, I've read a fewJames Patterson books, but I
remember reading an Alex Crossbook as a child.
(00:44):
I'm going to ask you do youremember when they made the Alex
Cross movie?
Jess (00:50):
I remember the Tyler Perry one.
Niq (00:52):
Yeah, and they casted Tyler Perry and I'm like who decided
that we were going to do Medeogoes detecting?
That was Tyler.
Jess (01:00):
Perry.
Niq (01:01):
It was a problem I feel like someone owed him a favor.
Jess (01:03):
I feel like someone owed him a favor.
Niq (01:07):
I also do feel like he had some dirt on somebody, Because
I'm like this is not your role.
Jess (01:15):
He knew at least where one body was buried.
Niq (01:18):
And so it's really exciting One, that they're doing a
series and two, I feel like thatthey gave the show the respect
that it deserved and cast itlike an actor.
All this hodge, honestly,casting Casting really killed.
(01:39):
They really did a great job ofgetting people who look like
real people.
Who look like real people.
They look like, like the showhas said, in DC and they look
like DC residents.
I lived in DC as a child andthere's a particular kind of
Blackness in DC that's differentfrom being Black in Atlanta or
(02:03):
Black in California or evenBlack in the Midwest.
It's different from being Blackin Atlanta or Black in
California or even Black in theMidwest.
It's different, and so Ihonestly feel like they did a
really good job of making themlook like people you would
really actually find in DC.
Jess (02:16):
Yeah, overall, I thought that they represented DC well.
They did.
They had real DC vibesthroughout the show.
Yeah, it was like there was alove letter to DC vibes
throughout the show.
Niq (02:25):
Yeah, it was like there was a love letter to DC written in
this show, like talking aboutthe mumbo sauce and going to
Ben's Chili Bowl, like you know,having, like you know, some of
the characters be politicians,because you will throw a rock
and hit a politician in DC, likethey're very much going to be
in your network, even like thenot-for-profit, you know,
(02:49):
foundations, like all of that,like that's a big part of DC,
and so I really think that theydid a great job.
They did.
They represented DC well.
So do you want to give asynopsis or would you like me to
give us?
Not, I feel like we need togive like a more detailed
synopsis than we normally do,because a lot happened in this
(03:11):
show a lot did happen okay I'llleave that up to you go ahead.
Okay, so this show.
If you're not familiar with thecharacter alex cross, or you're
not familiar with the jamespatterson books, um, this book
is about a detective.
Is he a doctor?
Is he a doctor in psychology?
Jess (03:30):
Yeah, also a forensic psychologist.
Niq (03:32):
Yes, and he works as a DC police officer, which I think is
kind of funny because with hispedigree and his skill level I
would expect to see him in theFBI.
Jess (03:43):
But the fact that he the court offers him a job in the
show in this series.
Niq (03:47):
Yeah, they do, and so he is known for solving cases.
He's kind of like a hometownhero.
And so the show starts with hiswife being murdered and that
was a little bit shocking for me, and the reason why is because
(04:10):
they were trying to establishthat he and his wife were very
much in love.
She was dead within I feel likethe first five minutes of the
show.
Jess (04:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
They fridged the wife at thebeginning.
Niq (04:23):
Absolutely.
I'm just like wait a minute,like.
But I mean, as the show goes on, you get like flashbacks and
moments so you really get tounderstand their relationship.
But like the show is like, ohmy god, you're my soulmate, I
love you so much.
Pew, pew, she's gone and I'mjust like, hey, hey, guys, let's
slow down, let's slow down abit.
(04:44):
So his wife is murdered withinthe first five minutes of the
show and then the show fastforwards a year later where he's
like in the thick of things, inthe thick of his grief and
trying to figure out what hislife looks like without his wife
, and a famous activist is founddead and like people think that
(05:08):
he's been like killed by thepolice because he's, you know,
working to defund the police.
His family's like it's murder,murder, murder.
But the police think that it'ssuicide or maybe a drug overdose
, and so initially he just getskind of pulled in drug overdose.
And so initially he just getskind of pulled in.
They're like, hey, can you workthis case Because we, you know,
(05:31):
we're having a PR crisis andyou're trusted, and so, as he
digs into and very much you'retrusted in Black and we're
dealing with Black people.
Jess (05:36):
That's very true.
Niq (05:37):
Yeah, they're like well, you're a Black person, go talk
to those Black folks, go talk tothe other Black people, go talk
to those Black folks, go talkto the other Black people.
And so, as he investigates thecase because he does take it
seriously he investigates it, Ifeel like, without bias, because
everybody's like assuming ohwell, you know what, he has a
past and so he probably wasprobably an overdose or he
(05:58):
probably was trying to killhimself.
So he goes in with an open mindand he digs deeper and he finds
that there's more to the caseand he actually finds a serial
killer which I'm like man,that's wild.
Like imagine you're thinkingthat you're just like trying to
solve a PR crisis and find outwhat happens to this one person
(06:20):
and you stumble upon a serialkiller who, if my, I think, has
been killing people for 28 years.
Jess (06:28):
I know he's killed at the point of the show.
He has killed 11 people and hisgoal is 12, but I don't know
the exact amount of years.
But yeah, it's been a long time.
Niq (06:37):
I'm pretty sure they said 28 years because he started when
he was fairly young he didstart killing people in, I think
about, while he was college age.
Yeah, and so, as he's huntingand dealing with the serial
killer that he first has toconvince people exist, he's also
(06:57):
dealing with someone who isstalking his family and he
doesn't know or understand why,but he's being stalk and I think
I need to sneeze.
Let's see, okay, it's gonna go,okay, uh, so he's dealing with
a stalker and so he's kind ofbeing like pulled in so many
(07:19):
directions because, like theserial killer like is I feel
like almost taunting him in someways, you know, but so is this
person who is like stalking himand he's, you know, trying to be
a father to his kids and tryingto work and so like he has a
(07:39):
lot on his shoulders.
I'm like man, how much, howmuch can one person take?
Jess (07:44):
and I also feel like at the beginning of the show.
So at the end you realize thatthese are two different people,
but while it's going on it's notclear sometimes who's doing
what that's very true If theserial killer is the one
stalking and talking him thewhole time or if it's somebody
different from his past.
You kind of realize later thatit's two separate things, but it
(08:04):
does seem intertwinedthroughout a good portion of the
show you know what?
Niq (08:08):
that is a very good point, because the first time I watched
it yes, for a long time Ithought that the serial killer.
Because you find out who theserial killer is.
Very early in the series.
So it's not a surprise who theserial killer is.
But I thought the serial killerwas taunting him too, which I'm
like.
Why, if you've been doing allof this kind of in silence all
(08:31):
of these years now, why are youmessing with this man?
And it turns out it was noteven the serial killer, it was
somebody else, although he andthe serial killer do go toe to
toe.
They play a lot of mind gameswith each other.
They are really mean to eachother, and Of course they are,
(08:53):
but like and I don't Like, maybeI should say this Like they get
personal, oh, very personal.
That's what I when I say theymean to each other.
Like you, you've seen moviesbefore where, like, a police
officer is hunting a serialkiller and they'll correspond
and they'll play mind games.
But these two men get verydirty and very personal and have
(09:18):
conversations in front of otherpeople I'm gonna call them
civilians, because people whoare not involved in the
situation.
They are having theseconversations in front of
civilians and I'm just like waita minute.
How do you guys not know thathe's the serial killer?
Look at how he's acting, lookhow he's talking to this man.
Jess (09:39):
The first time he came on screen before he interacted with
a person.
I'm like that's him.
He looks like a serial killerhe's got serial killer vibes
like there's nothing you coulddo.
Niq (09:52):
There's nothing that man could do to get me to go to his
house in a car with him inT-wear because I'm like you,
exude serial killer he does, hereally does, as a matter of fact
, like, even like the lastperson that he captures that he
needs to kill, to like fulfillhis life's work.
(10:13):
The serial killer, that ladydid not trust him.
No, yet how did she still getcaught?
Because she was like, she keptsaying, like this guy, I don't
know, I don't know, I don't know, but she still got caught and
I'm like man, you didn't eventrust him she didn't.
Jess (10:30):
But the thing is that frustrated me about her is that
she has really good instinctsthat she does not listen to,
because she was like oh, youcan't finish me, no, we're done,
we're over.
And she starts to walk out.
She's about to walk away.
Then she lets him charm herback into it, which doesn't feel
right, because I'm like there'snothing charming about him.
He's not charming, he's verycreepy, he feels creepy.
(10:52):
So I'm like I don't know howyou let this man charm you into
breakfast.
Absolutely not.
Niq (10:57):
You know what it is.
Dating is hard in DC.
I've heard that dating in DC isreally rough.
Jess (11:02):
You know, honestly, I think at every I don't know,
probably, but dating is hardeverywhere.
I think it's like he catchesher not wanting to be rude, Like
some women have this reallyissue with being rude or being
like, and so like he plays onthat to me.
You know he's like, oh well,just have breakfast and you can
leave if you want after that.
(11:23):
Or you know he's like, oh well,just have breakfast and you can
leave if you want after that.
Or you know, just making itseem like he did all this kind
of stuff.
And I think she does it not tobe rude.
And the same thing when he gother the job offer for her dream
job, the Ritz Carlton to get herto the house.
And he's like, oh, come over,I'll help you prepare, make you
breakfast.
And she's clearly like I don'tknow you well enough.
And then he plays up all I wasjust trying to help you, I made
(11:44):
these calls, got you this, youknow.
And so she's like, dang it, Ican't be rude.
And that's the only reason shegoes, because her instincts at
every turn told her no, righteven to the point, like before
she walks in the door.
Niq (11:55):
She's like if you don't hear from me in an hour, this is
where I'm at now, did she know?
that he had, like, messed withher phone and so she wasn't
really calling people.
She did not know, but she knewhe was not to be trusted and she
still let him get her and I'mlike girl.
That drove me crazy.
I'm just going to be honest.
(12:16):
I'm like girl.
You could have lived.
You could have lived.
All you had to do was trustyour instincts.
But I've actually heard thatbefore, like that men who tend
to assault women, like they do,play on that women don't like to
be rude and they men use it totheir advantage.
So we need to start being morerude.
(12:37):
I don't know about that, but, um, so he matches with weakness,
only strength right, he matcheswits with the serial killer and
that storyline comes to what wethink of, the conclusion, but
not quite a conclusion, and hekind of shifts his focus over to
(12:57):
like the stalker.
Did you see that twist coming?
Jess (13:04):
I saw it before, but it was late.
I did not see it from thebeginning.
I can tell you when you foundit.
Niq (13:09):
I'm going to tell you exactly when you figured it out
when he went to see the.
I don't know if it was theparole person or something as
soon as she said.
Jess (13:21):
As soon as she said she was a street mom, I was like oh,
it's Nancy.
Niq (13:26):
That is also what I figured it out too and so then, at that
point I'm starting to like goback and say, hey, should I have
seen this twist coming?
I didn't see it, I couldn'tfind, I couldn't see it either.
Jess (13:40):
But you know, I kind of like that, because we usually
don't get surprised, right, youknow.
So I kind of like I still feellike don't get surprised, right,
you know.
So I kind of like that.
I still feel like I figured itout before most people would
have figured it out.
Niq (13:48):
But I was like but okay, Good one, Good one.
I think most people probablylike figured it out, like at the
cabin, yeah, Like you knowinside the cabin.
Jess (13:57):
yeah, yeah, but I was like no, as soon as she said, nancy,
because you do, we watch enoughTV to know like a certain point
in the show the killer has tohave, or you know, that has to
have been introduced already,even if you don't know who it is
, they've had to be introduced.
So, yeah, but yeah, that was agood job.
Niq (14:14):
It was a good job.
Did you feel like she startedbeing creepy once they got to
the cabin?
Jess (14:20):
yeah, once she started being creepy, then her whole
voice was creepy, and then whenI watched the second time, she
was creepy the whole time right,you just didn't know like yeah,
but like once you got to the,it was, and I'm like I don't
know if it was just because atthat point I knew, okay, like
this lady is bad news, but itjust seemed like everything it's
like her voice, her mannerisms,like everything seemed a little
(14:42):
bit more sinister.
Niq (14:44):
And she's doing things like offering the kids hot chocolate
, making them dinner and we'regoing to play board games.
All of the stuff, but there's asinister undertone to it.
I just think maybe she's just aphenomenal actress.
Jess (14:59):
She is and her voice fit that character perfectly.
There was a creepy kind ofraspy quality to her voice that
was like perfect for thischaracter.
Niq (15:09):
Yeah, she did a good job.
She really did a good job.
And so ultimately, like youknow, alex has to go and save
his family from the stalkerbecause the stalker has kind of
outsmarted him and you know,everybody thinks he's the
smartest, but the stalker, youknow of outsmarted him and you
know everybody thinks he's thesmartest, but the stalker, you
know, outsmarted him and theyhave his kids and he's, you know
(15:31):
, having to reconcile that.
And so this episode, like thisseason, was what?
Eight episodes, yeah, how didyou feel about the pacing?
Because they did a lot.
Jess (15:41):
They did a lot.
I honestly I feel like atcertain points it was too slow,
at certain points we didn't haveenough information, so I feel
like it was a little off.
But then those last twoepisodes I feel like they were
okay.
That's where we really got agood pacing.
I do think episode seven isperfect pacing of all the
episodes.
But there are moments where itfeels a little bit slow and then
(16:06):
there are still things that Ifeel like are kind of plot holes
that never got resolved orweren't clearly explained.
I don't know if that has to dowith pacing, but yeah Do you
have an example of that.
Yes, and maybe and I was hoping,because I want to ask you,
because I'm like, maybe I'm justconfused.
I hope I'm confused and I justmissed it, but like, so the
stalker is upset with Alex Crossbecause she has these two
children that she's kind ofadopted off the streets.
(16:27):
They refer to her as her streetmom and one of them went to
jail because Alex testified inher case and said that she was
basically unfixable, and so atthe time it seems like he says
that because she's had such atraumatic childhood, she killed
this man and she has no kind ofremorse or anything like that.
But we find out later that it'sbecause she was being abused in
(16:49):
prison by someone named BarbaraWhelan.
Do we ever see that characterLike?
I tried to look for her.
Who is Barbara Whelan?
I couldn't figure out who thatwas, okay.
Niq (17:00):
Do you remember the blonde woman who tried to kill Alex?
Jess (17:04):
That's her.
Yes, that's Barbara Wheeler.
Niq (17:08):
Yes what I did not understand and I watched it
twice and I still somehow missedit.
Why was she like I?
Why was she killing?
Why was she trying to kill Alex?
Was somebody paying her?
I know there was like a letterin her room that said kill Alex
Cross, but I missed, like wherethat letter came from.
Jess (17:29):
That that letter came from the serial killer.
No, hold on.
No, no, no.
Niq (17:39):
No, it came from the stalker.
They were trying to punish heralso because she abused.
Jess (17:47):
Deidre, I'm sorry that didn't come from my bad, that
didn't come from the serialkiller, that came from Miss
Nancy.
But why?
Because she was the one abusing.
Niq (17:57):
Deidre, no, no, no, no.
But why would Barbara do it?
I assume that there was athreat in that note.
Jess (18:04):
I know the outside of the note just said kill Alex Cross
and there was something insidethe envelope.
So I assume whatever that waswas the blackmail or the threat
to get her to do it.
And they put blanks in the gunor misfires in the gun so that
when she shot at Whitney hewould kill her.
Niq (18:21):
I understood that.
I knew that they were punishingher.
I knew why they chose her, butI didn't know why she was
willing to kill him.
Jess (18:29):
That's what I did not understand, I assume that
whatever we didn't see inside ofthat envelope was the threat or
the blackmail.
Niq (18:36):
Okay, do you have another plot hole?
Jess (18:40):
Let me see um okay, nothing I can think of right now
.
Niq (18:45):
Yeah so yeah, that was my question.
I'm like why?
Jess (18:50):
is she?
Yeah, I just okay.
So what, what?
Okay.
So then it wasn't clear thatthat was barbara whelan to me
and I was looking for her thesecond time.
I'm like who the hell is this?
Because I was trying to, I'mlike, is it the lady that's in
the wheelchair?
That's like the judge and I'mlike, well, she used to be a
warden or something.
I'm like what is connected?
Because, okay, why were theyafter her?
Why were they after who Was she?
(19:11):
The?
Niq (19:11):
prosecutor.
Yeah, okay, yeah, likeKowaleski or something, was that
her name.
I don't know her name, but yes,yeah, she helped prosecute.
Jess (19:22):
she was prosecuted in the case, okay alright, so some of
those little details is kind ofrunning together.
They just weren't as clear tome.
But okay, I'm glad we'retalking about it.
Niq (19:32):
It's because there were two stories running concurrently
and at that point, once again,you don't know if the stalker is
not the serial killer.
Like you don't understand alex,you're pulled in so many
directions because alex is alsobeing pulled in so many
directions yeah so, yeah, I, Ican understand, because, also,
(19:53):
like, I had to watch the showtwo times to understand, like,
how kayla fit into the story.
So kayla is like his friend,and then they worked on a case
together and now she's like inthe fbi, um, because I'm just
like, okay, like she's like popsup and does whatever he, she,
he asked her to do.
Hey, can you go get thisinformation?
(20:14):
Can you do this, can you dothat?
And I'm like where, like why isshe doing all of this stuff?
But it's because, like, theyused to be really close, they
used to work together, um, andnow she's in the FBI.
So I guess she kind of hasaccess to more information when
they worked together before.
Jess (20:31):
She was in the FBI then and he was just consulting on a
case with her.
Niq (20:34):
But yeah, yeah, she's been in the FBI okay, I didn't
understand that because she said, hey, you know we worked on
that case together, but you'rethe national hero.
That's what I didn't realizethat she was already in the FBI.
Jess (20:46):
Sometimes the different stuff in private.
Yeah, she's always been in theFBI, the whole time.
Niq (20:51):
Yeah, but she does a lot for him.
I just feel like, do you havean actual job that you're
supposed to do?
Jess (21:01):
But okay.
So let me tell you the verylast scene with her and Bobby
Trey.
She does a lot for him, butshe's no dummy, I think, the
whole time she's also working anangle.
She's also very intelligent,but she's also because how she
presents herself, I think shecomes across as unassuming, so
like she has end goals too.
So what she's doing is alsohelping her.
Niq (21:23):
She does.
Yeah, I also helping her shedoes.
Yeah, I agree, but you don'tsee it to the last minute, right
?
Yeah, I, oh, yeah.
At the end, when she was liketalking to bobby tray, I said,
oh, is she gonna be the villainnext season?
Jess (21:29):
because she is shady and here's the thing, I think it can
go either way, like I'm like, Ifeel like it's intentionally we
don't know if she's shady orshe was working another angle
from the beginning.
Either way, she's workinganother angle from the beginning
.
Either way, she's workinganother angle from the beginning
.
But it's like is she giving himthis deal to get a bigger fish,
which I feel like she might be,but I think it leaves it
intentionally ambiguous, so wedon't know.
(21:50):
So, with that being said, withKayla and Bobby Trey at the end,
when she's offering him thatdeal and the first part of the
deal is just so that fanboydoesn't get the credit that he
wants so bad, and that, I think,is between her and Alex.
The second part of the deal,where she gets all the dirt on
the politicians, I'm like she'seither going to go after them
directly because she is part ofthe FBI and that's who would go
(22:12):
after them, you know.
So she's like this whole timeyou know what I mean like
working the angle, like yeah,I'm gonna help you with your
case because it's gonna help memake some bigger cases, which
could be one angle and I ain'tmad at her about that or I got
all these secrets, on thishollywood, um, you know
hollywood dc elite who are verypowerful people that I can use
at my will and I think that'swhat she's doing.
Niq (22:33):
And the reason why I said that is because she's like she
offered bobby tray like a bigsum of money and I'm just like,
hmm, like I feel like if it waslike the FBI, if it was more
sanctioned, they would haveoffered him like more freedom
and not necessarily cash in hand.
Jess (22:52):
I don't know why cash in hand sounds like CIA to me okay,
but this is what it is, thoughI don't think it's that clear,
because the money that she'soffering him is just.
She's just going to unfreezethe money that she froze, that
the fanboy was paying him.
Remember, she has his money.
Niq (23:11):
I thought they.
I know that they froze thefanboy's money, but I did not
realize that the money, thatthat's where they were getting
the money from.
I know yeah, I know that BobbyTrey's wire didn't go through,
so she's just going to unfreezehis money.
Jess (23:26):
But he has access to the millions that the fanboy was
paying him after he does his 24months.
So I'm like.
So either way, like you know,wouldn't it be nice to have
money All she's got becauseshe's in, that all she's got to
do is unfreeze that money oncehe gets out, because she froze
it.
She's the one that froze it,but she can do it and again, to
me that still could be, andprobably I don't know what the
FBI has latitude to do, but Ifeel like that still could be
(23:48):
within her job and just-.
Niq (23:50):
You're right.
You're right.
Yeah, if she's just unfreezingthat money, then yes, that does
make sense.
I thought that she was comingup, coming out and I'm like that
, that sounds shady but yeah,cause.
Jess (24:02):
Bobby Trey says is this the FBI or is this you?
And she said money, don't knowwhere it came from.
She did say that and I lovethat phrase.
I was like girl.
I definitely mean like her evenmore, though I'm not even gonna
lie.
Niq (24:14):
I was like all right, I do love that he works within a team
and he's not like so often whenthere's like the tortured
genius character.
Like he stands head andshoulders above like the other
people he works with in thisshow he very much, even though
he's good at what he does, he isaround people who are also good
(24:38):
at what they do, who are also,like, well known and respected
for what they do, and I likedthat.
I liked that.
You know, I really enjoyed that.
So the show one of the thingsthat the show tackled and talked
about a lot was therelationship between, like, the
police and the community, and Ithink that's really interesting
(25:02):
because alex and his best friend, who's also his partner, their
childhood best friends to johnthey're both dc policemen but
they are actually from dc.
They still live in thecommunity that they police and
they see themselves as differentbecause of those things.
Jess (25:24):
Yeah, they see themselves as part of the community.
Niq (25:27):
But the community doesn't see them that way.
Jess (25:29):
I mean, do Black people have the latitude of seeing
police officers as part of theircommunity?
They don't.
Niq (25:37):
But I thought that that was very interesting.
They don't, but I thought thatthat was very interesting.
It's a very interestingperspective because they see
themselves very differently thanhow the community sees them and
they have a very complicatedrelationship.
It's very much like when thecommunity feels like they are
doing what they are supposed todo, they are civil with them,
(26:02):
cordial at best.
At the slightest hint that theyfeel like they are not doing
what they're supposed to do,they are vicious towards them.
I honestly respect that a lot.
Jess (26:18):
Is that not our job, but to hold our community leaders
accountable?
I that a lot.
Is that not our job, but tohold our community leaders
accountable.
Niq (26:22):
I have a lot of respect for it because, honestly, if you
look at it, the police are in aposition of power.
It's like if they don't keeptheir foot on their neck, are
they really going to get whatthey want and what they need?
They were from the verybeginning saying hey, amir, is
(26:43):
the the activist that wasmurdered?
And they're like he wasmurdered.
He was murdered and they'relike no, it was probably an
overdose or it was probably asuicide.
And then, like at the most,they were like okay, well, maybe
it was gang activity and gangrelated.
And like the community, they'relike no, you know, he's no
(27:05):
longer involved in drugs, he's acommunity gang affiliate for
years the police literally likehad to be drugged by their
fingernails to acknowledge thatthis man was murdered and it was
not related to the community.
And the question is, how manytimes does that happen across
(27:31):
the country?
Jess (27:34):
That felt so real to me.
You know that they would haveto, Because I do think that in
policing, particularly inAmerica, like they come up with
a narrative and then they try toprove themselves right, and I
think the juxtaposition withthem and Alex and 2John being
actual detectives looking forevidence, you know it's just
(27:56):
very clear and present, becauseI'm like no, they get a
narrative, they get a story andthey try to prove themselves
right, especially when it comesto black people.
It's very hard for them to seeoutside of their own prejudice.
Right, they wanted to make thisa story about gang activity and
drugs so bad because of whatthey think about black people.
Niq (28:15):
And that's the funny thing is, oh, even though the people,
even the people making theconjecture, a lot of times were
also black, because, like therewas like the black female police
officer who worked I think shesaid she either worked in the
gang unit or a lot of times thattime.
Jess (28:31):
That time because the people who are making the
conjecture are mainly the policechief, who's a white woman.
She is the main opposition,because it is not convenient for
her for it to be anything otherthan gang activity.
Because she's running for mayor,so she's trying to shut the
situation down and because sheis a white woman who does not
see black people as fully humanand does not care what happens
(28:51):
to this man.
There's the other two femalecops who I can't really tell
what race they are.
They could be are they could bewhite, they could be something
else, like the one that waspregnant, the one that was
pregnant.
And then there's one with acrinkly hair who's taller than
the Black woman.
The Black woman is the onlyBlack person who is like no,
(29:12):
this is also gang activity.
There's not a lot of Blackpeople saying that.
Niq (29:17):
I guess when I say a lot, he's giving direct evidence on
why it doesn't make sense andshe's arguing with him.
Jess (29:30):
She is.
But again, that argumentstarted before she came into the
room with the police chief.
To me she's very much like atthat point.
She changes in the show.
Eventually she changes over theBlack woman I don't know her
name.
That argument that we're goingto keep this certain narrative
starts with the police chief,the white female police chief.
(29:50):
She is very strong about it.
To me, when the Black womancomes in and is like oh, if it
walks like a duck, talks like aduck kind of attitude of
attitude I'm like she's toeingthe line that the, that the
police chief is already set andso I do place more blame on her
one.
She is the one in the mostpowerful position.
Then you've got the pregnantlady who I can't tell exactly
(30:12):
what her position is.
She, to me she seems like she'shigher than alex and um, yeah,
I think she's the captain, okayso she's the captain, all Okay,
so she's the captain.
And again, even though she knowssomething is off and we know
later on that she knows morethan we knew, she knew she's
still like, well, okay, you'rereally going to have to prove it
for us to go, even though sheknows, what the police chief is
(30:34):
saying doesn't make any senseconsidering the evidence, and
what Alex and 2John are sayingmakes the most sense.
So that opposition.
They're facing oppositionconstantly and that's the other
thing.
It's like to be looking for thetruth.
Trying to find a serial killer,trying to find evidence is
already hard, but every singlestep of the way the system is
(30:55):
fighting them.
Niq (30:57):
Yes, not just the system, the community is also fighting
them too, and I think that wasthe thing that was slightly
frustrating to me, because hisfamily, like, while I understood
the anger, like he had to govisit them too many times to get
all that information he needed,he did.
(31:18):
I'm just like, just sayeverything.
Also, here's a question thatyou may not be able to answer
what does take place in presentday?
Yeah, I think so.
Okay, you think it does takeplace in present day.
So then this is my question iswell, let's go, let's talk about
what I feel like is a plot hole.
(31:38):
Okay, so um Amir is dead.
They're investigating his uhmurder.
They find out that his lastphone call was to one of his
friends, tavio.
They're trying to go talk toTavio.
You know about what the messagewas, tavio.
They try to go talk to Tavio.
You know about what the messagewas.
Tavio ends up getting killedand they're trying to get to
(31:59):
Tavio's phone right, tavio'sbaby mama.
She finds the phone and shegoes on the run trying to get
this information to someone whocan help.
If it's present day, why didyou not post the audio on social
media?
Jess (32:15):
Literally, literally said that, literally said that, like
yesterday, I did my recent watchwith a friend and both were
like why didn't she just emailit?
Why did she post it on socialmedia?
Why did she email it to thereporter?
Why is she going on the run andhaving to give this phone in
person?
Niq (32:32):
I would have sent that message to everybody.
You could not in person.
I would have sent that messageto every body so that you could
not ignore it.
I would have texted toeverybody, emailed it.
It would have been on Twitter.
It would have been all oversocial media, everywhere.
That's what I'm like.
That's why I asked Did they saythis?
Jess (32:50):
To your point I didn't even know.
Niq (32:53):
Anybody mentioned social media.
Jess (32:55):
That phone did look old.
Niq (32:58):
But the little boy had an iPad.
Jess (33:00):
The little boy had an iPad , yeah, but the phone Tapio's
phone did not have a big enoughscreen.
It just looked really old.
I'm like was it a flip phone orwas it one of Nokia's?
Yeah, it did look old.
Niq (33:13):
I'm like, instead of going on the run, like the same day
you got the phone, you couldhave sent that message out to
everybody, literally everybody,and you wouldn't have had to go
on the run if you had text thatthing to yourself when you found
that phone and put it rightback in his body, you would
still be alive, raising yourchild, that's very true, that's
very true, so that honestly waslike and looking at her, the
(33:35):
body of her dead boyfriend, butyeah, you, but you know enough
to take the phone.
You were thinking strategicallyto a certain point, but you know
like I would have.
This is what I would have done.
I would have sent the messageto myself and took the phone to
the police.
Let the police, if they'regoing to investigate, let them
investigate.
But I also have a copy of themessage now that I can send and
(34:00):
show to any and everybody.
That part of the story did notmake sense to me.
Jess (34:06):
It did not make sense to me either, and I guess the only
explanation I can is that you'regrieving and not feeling safe,
because Cross does say somethingto the fact that she's going
someplace that's familiarbecause she runs away to a hotel
that's like in her neighborhood, and so he's like, well, she's
going to a place that's familiarand close, someplace that she
(34:27):
would have seen throughout herchildhood and been comfortable.
Maybe that's why your decisionsare not making sense, because,
yeah, I would have just emailedit to the.
Even if you just wanted to sendit to the reporter, I would
have emailed it to the reporter.
Niq (34:38):
So I saw people doing during the show online dating,
but I did not see anybody onsocial media, like I didn't see
anybody reference Twitter.
I know social media existed ifthere was iPads, if there was
online dating, but it's almostlike social media did not exist
(34:59):
in this particular world.
Jess (35:00):
That's true, you don't see anything on social media.
Even the protest and activismwould have been on social media.
Niq (35:07):
Right In that respect, james Patterson.
These books were coming out inthe 90s.
That's why I'm like what yearis this?
But there are modern thingshappening.
Jess (35:23):
Yeah, the clothes age.
Niq (35:24):
So it doesn't make sense for there not to be social media
.
But I guess maybe in thisparticular world there is no
social media because no onereferenced social media at all
and social media would have keptthat girl alive.
Also, I also did not understandwhy Tavio, who was Amir's best
(35:45):
friend, why he didn't tell thepolice about the message when
they came to interview himinitially, and he was with the
family and he's trying toconvince the family I'm sorry,
the family at this point istrying to convince the police
that he's been murdered, becausethis is their first time coming
in Alex and Tujan and they'retalking to the family, you know,
(36:06):
because at this point they'vebeen told hey, it's probably an
overdose or a suicide, and thefamily is trying to convince him
, trying to convince him, tryingto convince them that there's a
murder.
Tavio is right there in theroom, literally right there in
the room.
He could have played themessage for them right then.
(36:26):
Why did he not do that?
Jess (36:28):
That's how strong his distrust of the police are.
He was not going to give themany information about anything,
and I think that's true for thefamily too, as to why they had
to go back so many times to getany information.
Niq (36:42):
Did he play the message for the family?
I don't think he did Once again.
Jess (36:47):
And the other thing about it is that because he's going,
because, okay, so Amir is gayand Amir thinks his mother does
not know, right?
So the sister and Tavio areboth trying to keep this
information from the motherbecause they think the mother
doesn't know, but of course themother knows yes, the mother
knows, but it's not like in themessage.
Niq (37:06):
He's like hey, I'm gay, help me.
Jess (37:10):
He doesn't mention his sexuality in the message he said
I went out on a date with thisdude and I think he gave me
something.
He drugged me.
Oh then.
Niq (37:17):
I didn't hear that part, yeah.
Jess (37:18):
That's how you find out he's gay when you first hear the
voicemail and he's like I wentout on a date with this dude,
something's off, you know, comeget me.
He's telling Tabio to come gethim and that's why how Bobby
Trey finds him.
Oh, I didn't know he was gayuntil the mama was like well,
you know he gay Once.
(37:40):
They played the voicemailbecause that's how he got them.
He got both of them from datingsites, just different dating
sites.
Niq (37:44):
I know he got them from dating sites, but when I heard
the voicemail, all I heard wassomebody put something in my
something.
He said he was on a date.
Okay, so then I completelymissed that part, because when
the mama was like he gay, I waslike what?
Jess (38:01):
So that's also part of the reason why he's not sharing
that information with them,because he's still trying to
protect him, because they arefriends.
Niq (38:07):
Yeah, that's his best friend, but okay, so let's say
he did not want the mom to know.
Why did he not play the messagefor the sister, like I?
Just there was way too muchsegmented information for me,
for people who swear that theywant this murder solved it's
(38:31):
because they're not thinkingstraight and they are they just
have this extreme distrust forthe police.
Jess (38:37):
But yes, it does not make sense to both be pushing the
police to solve a murder and notgiving them vital information
that would help solve the murder.
Niq (38:45):
Right, but I honestly feel like that's kind of realistic.
Jess (38:50):
I agree.
That's why it doesn't bother me.
Niq (38:52):
It's frustrating though it's frustrating, but there is a
realism, because Black peoplehave a very complicated
relationship with the police.
We want to be protected likeany other community, but we
don't feel like we are protected, and so you never know what
interaction is going to go badly, even when you're the victim.
(39:16):
Do you know how many timeswhite people call the police
because they're being attackedor they're being assaulted or
they're being robbed and thepolice come and shoot them or
shoot their husband or shoottheir son?
Jess (39:27):
Do you know how many times I've had so many conversations
with moms who are like I wasscared to call the police
because you know my son has anissue, a mental health issue,
and then they won't?
I'm afraid that they're goingto come and kill him, you know.
And so they don't call thepolice when they need help.
And that's why that interaction, as frustrating as it is, it
(39:47):
makes perfect sense to me, givenBlack people in America's
relationship with the police,because you don't know what you
can trust them with, what youcan't, what they will use
against you, and that's whythey're so closed mouth.
Niq (39:57):
Right Now.
Okay, so while we're talkingabout people going complicated
relationships with the police,so there's a scene where Alex is
at a dinner party and these arelike the fancier Black people,
these are like the bougie DCBlack blacks and he's like had a
little dinner party and he getsinto it with one of the party
(40:20):
goers who I feel like ispressing him unnecessarily hard
about being a police officer.
He was like here's the thingwas Alex's reaction okay, it was
not.
Yeah, he has anger issues.
He does, which makes you seemeven crazier.
When people are already sayingyou shouldn't be a cop and then
(40:42):
you show you have anger issues,it makes you look even crazier.
But I have complicated feelingsabout the police.
I'm not going to sit at a tablewith a cop and be like oh my
God, how are you even a cop?
How is that even a productiveconversation?
Jess (41:00):
He wasn't trying to have a productive conversation, he was
trying to provoke him.
Niq (41:04):
And he did a good job he did.
I'm just like this is weird.
Who does this at a dinner party?
Jess (41:09):
There are a lot of pissing contests in this show.
There's so many, and that's oneof them, and that's another
reason why that scene definitelyirritated me too.
But at the same time, you knowit's real because it's like
anytime men get a chance to saymine is bigger, they're going to
, and he literally says that atthe beginning.
(41:29):
I love that scene.
Niq (41:32):
Though that scene was hilarious because I said the
same.
Though that scene was hilariousbecause I said the same thing.
That man said I'm like you gotyour thing in his face.
Jess (41:40):
He had it so close to his face.
That was hilarious to me.
So that was a pissing contestand he was trying to provoke him
.
I don't know why, because Ithink he just had to be
intimidated by all this.
That is a huge hunk of man.
So I get it.
I don't care what you do for aliving, you cannot compare.
But so I think you know he justwanted to get under his skin
(42:03):
and he did.
The issue I have with that sceneis that that's the one
unrealistic response that Ithink we got from Alex, and not
even the anger or the fighting,because that makes sense in the
context of what you know thathe's going through.
But when he points out thisexample, it said with the police
, if you, if you, somethinghappens to you and the police
and somebody is about to beatyou, you know what?
Who are you going to call?
(42:24):
I hate that question for the,when they ask that question to
black people, because that isalways an issue for black people
and I'm like and you, as ablack person, know that Black
people always struggle as towhether or not they can call the
police when they're in danger.
We just talked about that andI'm like so that's not a weapon
you could throw up against us.
That's some dumb thing whitepeople say to us because they
(42:46):
don't understand that every timewe have to have an interaction
with the police, even if we knowwe're the victim, we have to go
through a process of is itworth it?
Would it be better if I justget robbed and then wait till
the robber's gone than have todeal with the possibility of
dying from the police becausethe robber might just take my
stuff?
Niq (43:03):
Right Police do not prevent crimes and they have a really
really, really low solve ratealso.
So, like I think, yeah, so Iagree, who's going to help you
if somebody's assaulting you?
Probably my cousins, honestly,for me, honestly.
Jess (43:23):
You know that's a wrestle every time.
Every time I've been in asituation where I've had to call
the police.
That is something that youwrestle with literally.
I don't know if you rememberwhen I was living with that um
and that, and then we were andwe had that person in in the
shed behind the house.
Yeah, we didn't know it was aperson, we just saw the light
flashing.
(43:44):
So I was in a neighborhood thatwas like predominantly white.
We had one friend on the streetbehind us that we knew, um and
and that, and that was a blackman.
I we called the police firstand we called that person next,
do you know?
So we, you know they stoppedour friend on the way to come to
us.
The very police that showed upat the house stopped to pull him
(44:06):
over first before he got to us.
It is always a struggle everytime and, yes, we are in an
emergency, trying to thinkthrough things, to think if it's
worth it so like.
That question is ridiculous, asa Black person, to ask another
Black person you already knowwhy haven't you told the police
that you work for and work withthat you've got a stalker for
(44:27):
that same reason.
Niq (44:34):
So, yeah, I the show.
I enjoyed the show overall.
I did.
I thought it was a good.
I thought it was a good story.
It's interesting, like what,what they're gonna do, like if
they get a season two, becauselike, is it realistic that he
(44:54):
runs up on another serial killeror you like?
You know what I'm saying likewhat season two?
oh really.
So I'm like what is the what isrealistic?
Is he going to get called awayto investigate something
interesting?
Or you know, like I'm how many,how many serial killers are
going to come to DC?
(45:15):
Or maybe like what's going tohappen?
He's already done a big childabduction case because that's
how he got famous before.
Now he's done this serialkiller.
So I'm like what's going to be?
Like the major overarching, youknow story of season two, what
seems realistic?
Because the show is very muchbased in reality.
Jess (45:42):
But there are so many Alex Cross books, though, so I think
they can go in really whateverdirection.
Yeah, I'm looking at the list.
There's a whole bunch, there'sa lot of places he can go.
I think like he could like.
It doesn't necessarily it couldbe, it could oh goodness, I'm
so low for my words but they cancontinue in the direction of
serial killers, and you couldjust have a different kind of
serial killer, or it could be adifferent kind of crime.
Niq (46:00):
Do you think he's going to get pulled?
If it's another serial killer,is he being pulled as a
consultant or another serialkiller just happens to operate
in DC?
Because, honestly, nowadays,like serial killers are so far
and few in between, I don't knowif it's technology it's harder
to not get caught these days, orif people are finding other
(46:20):
ways to let out their violent,sick tendencies in other ways.
I don't know.
Jess (46:28):
So let me pose something to you, and I still don't know
what direction we're going to goin season two.
I think they're going to pickup with something with the woman
that we saw at the end, andthat's going to be one storyline
, and then, of course, there'sprobably going to be some other
crimes that he's solving.
But let me pose it to you thisway they would have never caught
this particular serial killerif Alex hadn't really pushed it.
(46:50):
You know, they would have justwritten this off as gang
violence and went on Like arethere ones that are going
undetected because of thevictims they choose, because I
think that's always been truefor them?
Niq (47:01):
Now that has.
I agree that, historically,like, the most prolific serial
killers usually choose people wedon't care about, like homeless
people, hookers, gay men, andwhen I say people we don't care
about, I mean like society atlarge, not me personally.
But you know, like it's alwayslike a lot of times a
marginalized group of people,you know, and they'll operate
(47:27):
over wide areas, like truckdrivers.
I think I've seen, like youknow, truck drivers who like
pick up, like prostitutes, andso it's hard to tie them
together.
But I just think, oh, like Ifeel, like in the 70s and 80s,
like serial killers.
It seemed like they were likepopping up, like crazy.
Jess (47:49):
Ok, so here's my other thing.
I don't know that I agree withyou that there are less.
I hope you're right.
I don't know that I agree withyou that there are less.
I don't think that they'renecessarily less.
One of the other things that Ithink this show points out well
is an issue that I personallyhave with policing and how we
train police, and that thatthere are not like Alex is good,
(48:10):
because he also has thatadditional benefit of being a
forensic psychologist andstudying people and learning the
motivations of people.
I feel like you could just runup the ranks as a regular cop
and then eventually becomedetective.
There's no training on how toreally find things.
That's why we also get thetunnel vision of.
This is what I think happens.
So let me prove myself rightinstead of let me look for the
truth.
So again, are things just notbeing detected because they're
(48:31):
not being connected?
Because they're not becausebecause police get a particular
narrative and then they try toprove themselves right.
Niq (48:38):
I don't know how did all of a sudden like it?
Well, I think serial killersreally are something like the
FBI usually does, I think, butit just seems like Not
identified as serial killers.
Jess (48:52):
Is my point Right I?
Niq (48:53):
don't know.
Jess (48:55):
Police work is not good enough to identify that.
Niq (48:58):
Maybe it's the loud.
Serial killers are a thing ofthe past.
You know what I'm saying.
Jess (49:05):
The ones who are potentially trying to taunt you,
taunt the police and that kindof stuff and mess with the ones
who are intentionally trying totaunt you, taunt the police and
that kind of stuff and mess withyou, or who are very
ritualistic about it.
That's our idea of what it is,but it's really.
If you've killed what?
Five or more people, I justthink that they're not being
(49:25):
connected or detected.
Niq (49:27):
Because they're doing it in a way that's more quiet.
Jess (49:28):
I don't know if they're not being connected or detected
Because they're doing it in away that's more quiet I don't
know if they're intentionallybeing quiet or just not in
something like we very much seeserial killer as who this guy is
like, the guy Ramsey.
That's how we see them, that'show we see all of them.
But in reality, what if they'rejust, if it's not that fancy
(49:49):
and ritualistic, and so thepolice are not putting it
together as such, but that'sessentially what it is.
Niq (49:55):
I don't know, and someone needs to come out with a
documentary what happened to theserial killer, and let me know
I'll watch it.
So, holistically, is thereanything else you want to talk
(50:17):
about?
Um, as far as the show, I knowwe I want to do some, some deep
dives next, but do you think,holistically, we talked about
the show?
Jess (50:24):
well I was.
Overall, I think that the showis really good.
I like that it brings up a lotof the issues that we talk about
and just how difficult it wouldbe to be a Black police officer
and have to deal with the twoin the middle of two worlds, and
especially to be one withscruples.
You know what I mean, becausewe kind of see that him
juxtapose the other Black femalepolice officer who is like I'm
(50:45):
just going to get along untilshe doesn't.
I like that overall policeofficer who is like I'm just
going to get along until shedoesn't.
You know, I like that Overall.
Like I said, some weird issueswith pacing on the show, but I
feel like they catch up and theymake up for it.
It's still overall a reallygood quality show and I like the
writing.
I think that's all, but yeahoverall really enjoyable.
Niq (51:04):
Yeah, really I think that they did a good job with the
show.
The story was interesting.
You know the characters arecharacters that I care about, so
you know I want to see you knowwhat happens next.
I enjoy, like I said, I enjoyedthe setting.
I feel like they really gave alot of love and a lot of respect
to DC, so I really enjoyed itand I would definitely
(51:29):
definitely watch a season two.
I'm like we just really havebeen picking like really good
shows a lot.
Jess (51:33):
I'm so glad that you enjoyed this.
I was a little worried about it.
Niq (51:35):
I was like really yeah, no, I knew like I was excited
because, like I told you, like Iwatched the Alex Cross movie
with Tyler Perry, because I didyou watch Morgan Freeman?
Yes, I did, but that was solong ago.
Yeah.
Jess (51:51):
I don't.
Tyler Perry, did you watch theone with Morgan Freeman?
Niq (51:52):
Yes, I did, but that was so long ago, I don't remember, it
was so long ago and so the onewith Tyler Perry.
It just pissed me off.
I'm not going to lie.
Jess (51:59):
It pissed me off.
Before I watched it I was likeno, no, and I'm not a person
who's read the books but I stillknow that this is an important
character to a lot of people.
Niq (52:09):
It is it really.
It really is.
It is.
He is an important characterbecause, like, like when I was a
child, like reading these books, like a famous like black
detective who's like apsychologist, like that's, that
was like not normal you know,yeah, so no, yeah, he's
definitely perfect for it, andnot just because I think he's
(52:30):
perfect for everything I doagree um his person.
It's so hard for his personalitynot to shine through.
Yes, whatever character heplays and it's not that he's he
plays the same person because hedoesn't play the same person.
But there is just anunderlining part of his
(52:52):
personality that always shinesthrough and I just love when I
see it.
Jess (52:58):
I love when I see it peek through.
It's like him picking on 2Johnand bringing up the Old Spice
thing, because Isaiah Mustafaplays 2John.
It was the Old Spice guy Himsaying oh, you smell like my
balls in Old Spice.
You get a little bit of that,and it does.
You know, I'm a huge Leveragefan.
Leverage is one of my favoriteshows.
So yeah, I know you say likeyou still see glimpses of his
personality, because I justdon't feel like that character
(53:19):
would have been that he played.
Leverage would have been asdynamic if anybody else had
played it Absolutely not I.
I don't.
And I think, because there's agenuineness that comes across
with Aldous Hodge that iswonderful, and there's a
blackness that comes across withhim, no matter what he does,
because I'm like I don't carewhat you say, they wrote that
character general.
He happened to be black but hewas like but you're going to
(53:40):
feel that I'm a black man inthis.
And then it made the showbetter it did, it did.
Niq (53:45):
Yeah, that he.
I love Lever do me too.
It's on my yearly watch.
Like I have to watch leverageevery year, yeah, yearly.
You know what?
The funny thing I have so manyshows on my yearly.
Like half of the tv I watchevery year is our shows that I'm
(54:05):
re-watching, so so it's like Ican't watch any show more than
once a year because I have somany on my list.
I'm like a huge re-watcher.
Jess (54:14):
I'm a huge re-watcher too, and Leverage is probably the
show I watch the most honestly.
Niq (54:19):
Yeah.
Jess (54:19):
I do love it.
Niq (54:20):
I do love it.
It's yeah, I love an ensemblecast, me too, you know.
Jess (54:29):
Experts that are really good at whatever they do.
Yes To come together to dosomething.
Niq (54:34):
Do you want to come together to do crimes?
Jess (54:36):
Or do you want to come together to save the world, or a
little bit of both?
Niq (54:40):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I love an anti-hero with aheart of gold.
Oh yeah, but the next episode.
Honestly, I'm really excitedbecause I really want to talk
about relationships and Alex'srelationships.
I think there's a lot.
(55:01):
There's a lot in there, see younext episode.
Hi guys, welcome to the next episode with Nick and Jess,
and today we are discussingCross, and so I'm really excited
about this show.
So Cross is actually based on abook, right?
Robert Patterson, jamesPatterson, james Patterson, you
(00:21):
know me, it's definitely a.
Jess (00:22):
Patterson.
Niq (00:23):
And names it's always a mean, it's definitely a
Patterson and names it's alwaysa problem.
It's always a problem.
So it's James Patterson.
Here's the thing I remember asa child reading an Alex Cross
book.
Have you ever read an AlexCross book?
I have, yeah, I've read a fewJames Patterson books, but I
remember reading an Alex Crossbook as a child.
(00:44):
I'm going to ask you do youremember when they made the Alex
Cross movie?
Jess (00:50):
I remember the Tyler Perry one.
Niq (00:52):
Yeah, and they casted Tyler Perry and I'm like who decided
that we were going to do Medeogoes detecting?
That was Tyler.
Jess (01:00):
Perry.
Niq (01:01):
It was a problem I feel like someone owed him a favor.
Jess (01:03):
I feel like someone owed him a favor.
Niq (01:07):
I also do feel like he had some dirt on somebody, Because
I'm like this is not your role.
Jess (01:15):
He knew at least where one body was buried.
Niq (01:18):
And so it's really exciting One, that they're doing a
series and two, I feel like thatthey gave the show the respect
that it deserved and cast itlike an actor.
All this hodge, honestly,casting Casting really killed.
(01:39):
They really did a great job ofgetting people who look like
real people.
Who look like real people.
They look like, like the showhas said, in DC and they look
like DC residents.
I lived in DC as a child andthere's a particular kind of
Blackness in DC that's differentfrom being Black in Atlanta or
(02:03):
Black in California or evenBlack in the Midwest.
It's different from being Blackin Atlanta or Black in
California or even Black in theMidwest.
It's different, and so Ihonestly feel like they did a
really good job of making themlook like people you would
really actually find in DC.
Jess (02:16):
Yeah, overall, I thought that they represented DC well.
They did.
They had real DC vibesthroughout the show.
Yeah, it was like there was alove letter to DC vibes
throughout the show.
Niq (02:25):
Yeah, it was like there was a love letter to DC written in
this show, like talking aboutthe mumbo sauce and going to
Ben's Chili Bowl, like you know,having, like you know, some of
the characters be politicians,because you will throw a rock
and hit a politician in DC, likethey're very much going to be
in your network, even like thenot-for-profit, you know,
(02:49):
foundations, like all of that,like that's a big part of DC,
and so I really think that theydid a great job.
They did.
They represented DC well.
So do you want to give asynopsis or would you like me to
give us?
Not, I feel like we need togive like a more detailed
synopsis than we normally do,because a lot happened in this
(03:11):
show a lot did happen okay I'llleave that up to you go ahead.
Okay, so this show.
If you're not familiar with thecharacter alex cross, or you're
not familiar with the jamespatterson books, um, this book
is about a detective.
Is he a doctor?
Is he a doctor in psychology?
Jess (03:30):
Yeah, also a forensic psychologist.
Niq (03:32):
Yes, and he works as a DC police officer, which I think is
kind of funny because with hispedigree and his skill level I
would expect to see him in theFBI.
Jess (03:43):
But the fact that he the court offers him a job in the
show in this series.
Niq (03:47):
Yeah, they do, and so he is known for solving cases.
He's kind of like a hometownhero.
And so the show starts with hiswife being murdered and that
was a little bit shocking for me, and the reason why is because
(04:10):
they were trying to establishthat he and his wife were very
much in love.
She was dead within I feel likethe first five minutes of the
show.
Jess (04:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
They fridged the wife at thebeginning.
Niq (04:23):
Absolutely.
I'm just like wait a minute,like.
But I mean, as the show goes on, you get like flashbacks and
moments so you really get tounderstand their relationship.
But like the show is like, ohmy god, you're my soulmate, I
love you so much.
Pew, pew, she's gone and I'mjust like, hey, hey, guys, let's
slow down, let's slow down abit.
(04:44):
So his wife is murdered withinthe first five minutes of the
show and then the show fastforwards a year later where he's
like in the thick of things, inthe thick of his grief and
trying to figure out what hislife looks like without his wife
, and a famous activist is founddead and like people think that
(05:08):
he's been like killed by thepolice because he's, you know,
working to defund the police.
His family's like it's murder,murder, murder.
But the police think that it'ssuicide or maybe a drug overdose
, and so initially he just getskind of pulled in drug overdose.
And so initially he just getskind of pulled in.
They're like, hey, can you workthis case Because we, you know,
(05:31):
we're having a PR crisis andyou're trusted, and so, as he
digs into and very much you'retrusted in Black and we're
dealing with Black people.
Jess (05:36):
That's very true.
Niq (05:37):
Yeah, they're like well, you're a Black person, go talk
to those Black folks, go talk tothe other Black people, go talk
to those Black folks, go talkto the other Black people.
And so, as he investigates thecase because he does take it
seriously he investigates it, Ifeel like, without bias, because
everybody's like assuming ohwell, you know what, he has a
past and so he probably wasprobably an overdose or he
(05:58):
probably was trying to killhimself.
So he goes in with an open mindand he digs deeper and he finds
that there's more to the caseand he actually finds a serial
killer which I'm like man,that's wild.
Like imagine you're thinkingthat you're just like trying to
solve a PR crisis and find outwhat happens to this one person
(06:20):
and you stumble upon a serialkiller who, if my, I think, has
been killing people for 28 years.
Jess (06:28):
I know he's killed at the point of the show.
He has killed 11 people and hisgoal is 12, but I don't know
the exact amount of years.
But yeah, it's been a long time.
Niq (06:37):
I'm pretty sure they said 28 years because he started when
he was fairly young he didstart killing people in, I think
about, while he was college age.
Yeah, and so, as he's huntingand dealing with the serial
killer that he first has toconvince people exist, he's also
(06:57):
dealing with someone who isstalking his family and he
doesn't know or understand why,but he's being stalk and I think
I need to sneeze.
Let's see, okay, it's gonna go,okay, uh, so he's dealing with
a stalker and so he's kind ofbeing like pulled in so many
(07:19):
directions because, like theserial killer like is I feel
like almost taunting him in someways, you know, but so is this
person who is like stalking himand he's, you know, trying to be
a father to his kids and tryingto work and so like he has a
(07:39):
lot on his shoulders.
I'm like man, how much, howmuch can one person take?
Jess (07:44):
and I also feel like at the beginning of the show.
So at the end you realize thatthese are two different people,
but while it's going on it's notclear sometimes who's doing
what that's very true If theserial killer is the one
stalking and talking him thewhole time or if it's somebody
different from his past.
You kind of realize later thatit's two separate things, but it
(08:04):
does seem intertwinedthroughout a good portion of the
show you know what?
Niq (08:08):
that is a very good point, because the first time I watched
it yes, for a long time Ithought that the serial killer.
Because you find out who theserial killer is.
Very early in the series.
So it's not a surprise who theserial killer is.
But I thought the serial killerwas taunting him too, which I'm
like.
Why, if you've been doing allof this kind of in silence all
(08:31):
of these years now, why are youmessing with this man?
And it turns out it was noteven the serial killer, it was
somebody else, although he andthe serial killer do go toe to
toe.
They play a lot of mind gameswith each other.
They are really mean to eachother, and Of course they are,
(08:53):
but like and I don't Like, maybeI should say this Like they get
personal, oh, very personal.
That's what I when I say theymean to each other.
Like you, you've seen moviesbefore where, like, a police
officer is hunting a serialkiller and they'll correspond
and they'll play mind games.
But these two men get verydirty and very personal and have
(09:18):
conversations in front of otherpeople I'm gonna call them
civilians, because people whoare not involved in the
situation.
They are having theseconversations in front of
civilians and I'm just like waita minute.
How do you guys not know thathe's the serial killer?
Look at how he's acting, lookhow he's talking to this man.
Jess (09:39):
The first time he came on screen before he interacted with
a person.
I'm like that's him.
He looks like a serial killerhe's got serial killer vibes
like there's nothing you coulddo.
Niq (09:52):
There's nothing that man could do to get me to go to his
house in a car with him inT-wear because I'm like you,
exude serial killer he does, hereally does, as a matter of fact
, like, even like the lastperson that he captures that he
needs to kill, to like fulfillhis life's work.
(10:13):
The serial killer, that ladydid not trust him.
No, yet how did she still getcaught?
Because she was like, she keptsaying, like this guy, I don't
know, I don't know, I don't know, but she still got caught and
I'm like man, you didn't eventrust him she didn't.
Jess (10:30):
But the thing is that frustrated me about her is that
she has really good instinctsthat she does not listen to,
because she was like oh, youcan't finish me, no, we're done,
we're over.
And she starts to walk out.
She's about to walk away.
Then she lets him charm herback into it, which doesn't feel
right, because I'm like there'snothing charming about him.
He's not charming, he's verycreepy, he feels creepy.
(10:52):
So I'm like I don't know howyou let this man charm you into
breakfast.
Absolutely not.
Niq (10:57):
You know what it is.
Dating is hard in DC.
I've heard that dating in DC isreally rough.
Jess (11:02):
You know, honestly, I think at every I don't know,
probably, but dating is hardeverywhere.
I think it's like he catchesher not wanting to be rude, Like
some women have this reallyissue with being rude or being
like, and so like he plays onthat to me.
You know he's like, oh well,just have breakfast and you can
leave if you want after that.
(11:23):
Or you know he's like, oh well,just have breakfast and you can
leave if you want after that.
Or you know, just making itseem like he did all this kind
of stuff.
And I think she does it not tobe rude.
And the same thing when he gother the job offer for her dream
job, the Ritz Carlton to get herto the house.
And he's like, oh, come over,I'll help you prepare, make you
breakfast.
And she's clearly like I don'tknow you well enough.
And then he plays up all I wasjust trying to help you, I made
(11:44):
these calls, got you this, youknow.
And so she's like, dang it, Ican't be rude.
And that's the only reason shegoes, because her instincts at
every turn told her no, righteven to the point, like before
she walks in the door.
Niq (11:55):
She's like if you don't hear from me in an hour, this is
where I'm at now, did she know?
that he had, like, messed withher phone and so she wasn't
really calling people.
She did not know, but she knewhe was not to be trusted and she
still let him get her and I'mlike girl.
That drove me crazy.
I'm just going to be honest.
(12:16):
I'm like girl.
You could have lived.
You could have lived.
All you had to do was trustyour instincts.
But I've actually heard thatbefore, like that men who tend
to assault women, like they do,play on that women don't like to
be rude and they men use it totheir advantage.
So we need to start being morerude.
(12:37):
I don't know about that, but, um, so he matches with weakness,
only strength right, he matcheswits with the serial killer and
that storyline comes to what wethink of, the conclusion, but
not quite a conclusion, and hekind of shifts his focus over to
(12:57):
like the stalker.
Did you see that twist coming?
Jess (13:04):
I saw it before, but it was late.
I did not see it from thebeginning.
I can tell you when you foundit.
Niq (13:09):
I'm going to tell you exactly when you figured it out
when he went to see the.
I don't know if it was theparole person or something as
soon as she said.
Jess (13:21):
As soon as she said she was a street mom, I was like oh,
it's Nancy.
Niq (13:26):
That is also what I figured it out too and so then, at that
point I'm starting to like goback and say, hey, should I have
seen this twist coming?
I didn't see it, I couldn'tfind, I couldn't see it either.
Jess (13:40):
But you know, I kind of like that, because we usually
don't get surprised, right, youknow.
So I kind of like I still feellike don't get surprised, right,
you know.
So I kind of like that.
I still feel like I figured itout before most people would
have figured it out.
Niq (13:48):
But I was like but okay, Good one, Good one.
I think most people probablylike figured it out, like at the
cabin, yeah, Like you knowinside the cabin.
Jess (13:57):
yeah, yeah, but I was like no, as soon as she said, nancy,
because you do, we watch enoughTV to know like a certain point
in the show the killer has tohave, or you know, that has to
have been introduced already,even if you don't know who it is
, they've had to be introduced.
So, yeah, but yeah, that was agood job.
Niq (14:14):
It was a good job.
Did you feel like she startedbeing creepy once they got to
the cabin?
Jess (14:20):
yeah, once she started being creepy, then her whole
voice was creepy, and then whenI watched the second time, she
was creepy the whole time right,you just didn't know like yeah,
but like once you got to the,it was, and I'm like I don't
know if it was just because atthat point I knew, okay, like
this lady is bad news, but itjust seemed like everything it's
like her voice, her mannerisms,like everything seemed a little
(14:42):
bit more sinister.
Niq (14:44):
And she's doing things like offering the kids hot chocolate
, making them dinner and we'regoing to play board games.
All of the stuff, but there's asinister undertone to it.
I just think maybe she's just aphenomenal actress.
Jess (14:59):
She is and her voice fit that character perfectly.
There was a creepy kind ofraspy quality to her voice that
was like perfect for thischaracter.
Niq (15:09):
Yeah, she did a good job.
She really did a good job.
And so ultimately, like youknow, alex has to go and save
his family from the stalkerbecause the stalker has kind of
outsmarted him and you know,everybody thinks he's the
smartest, but the stalker, youknow of outsmarted him and you
know everybody thinks he's thesmartest, but the stalker, you
know, outsmarted him and theyhave his kids and he's, you know
(15:31):
, having to reconcile that.
And so this episode, like thisseason, was what?
Eight episodes, yeah, how didyou feel about the pacing?
Because they did a lot.
Jess (15:41):
They did a lot.
I honestly I feel like atcertain points it was too slow,
at certain points we didn't haveenough information, so I feel
like it was a little off.
But then those last twoepisodes I feel like they were
okay.
That's where we really got agood pacing.
I do think episode seven isperfect pacing of all the
episodes.
But there are moments where itfeels a little bit slow and then
(16:06):
there are still things that Ifeel like are kind of plot holes
that never got resolved orweren't clearly explained.
I don't know if that has to dowith pacing, but yeah Do you
have an example of that.
Yes, and maybe and I was hoping,because I want to ask you,
because I'm like, maybe I'm justconfused.
I hope I'm confused and I justmissed it, but like, so the
stalker is upset with Alex Crossbecause she has these two
children that she's kind ofadopted off the streets.
(16:27):
They refer to her as her streetmom and one of them went to
jail because Alex testified inher case and said that she was
basically unfixable, and so atthe time it seems like he says
that because she's had such atraumatic childhood, she killed
this man and she has no kind ofremorse or anything like that.
But we find out later that it'sbecause she was being abused in
(16:49):
prison by someone named BarbaraWhelan.
Do we ever see that characterLike?
I tried to look for her.
Who is Barbara Whelan?
I couldn't figure out who thatwas, okay.
Niq (17:00):
Do you remember the blonde woman who tried to kill Alex?
Jess (17:04):
That's her.
Yes, that's Barbara Wheeler.
Niq (17:08):
Yes what I did not understand and I watched it
twice and I still somehow missedit.
Why was she like I?
Why was she killing?
Why was she trying to kill Alex?
Was somebody paying her?
I know there was like a letterin her room that said kill Alex
Cross, but I missed, like wherethat letter came from.
Jess (17:29):
That that letter came from the serial killer.
No, hold on.
No, no, no.
Niq (17:39):
No, it came from the stalker.
They were trying to punish heralso because she abused.
Jess (17:47):
Deidre, I'm sorry that didn't come from my bad, that
didn't come from the serialkiller, that came from Miss
Nancy.
But why?
Because she was the one abusing.
Niq (17:57):
Deidre, no, no, no, no.
But why would Barbara do it?
I assume that there was athreat in that note.
Jess (18:04):
I know the outside of the note just said kill Alex Cross
and there was something insidethe envelope.
So I assume whatever that waswas the blackmail or the threat
to get her to do it.
And they put blanks in the gunor misfires in the gun so that
when she shot at Whitney hewould kill her.
Niq (18:21):
I understood that.
I knew that they were punishingher.
I knew why they chose her, butI didn't know why she was
willing to kill him.
Jess (18:29):
That's what I did not understand, I assume that
whatever we didn't see inside ofthat envelope was the threat or
the blackmail.
Niq (18:36):
Okay, do you have another plot hole?
Jess (18:40):
Let me see um okay, nothing I can think of right now
.
Niq (18:45):
Yeah so yeah, that was my question.
I'm like why?
Jess (18:50):
is she?
Yeah, I just okay.
So what, what?
Okay.
So then it wasn't clear thatthat was barbara whelan to me
and I was looking for her thesecond time.
I'm like who the hell is this?
Because I was trying to, I'mlike, is it the lady that's in
the wheelchair?
That's like the judge and I'mlike, well, she used to be a
warden or something.
I'm like what is connected?
Because, okay, why were theyafter her?
Why were they after who Was she?
(19:11):
The?
Niq (19:11):
prosecutor.
Yeah, okay, yeah, likeKowaleski or something, was that
her name.
I don't know her name, but yes,yeah, she helped prosecute.
Jess (19:22):
she was prosecuted in the case, okay alright, so some of
those little details is kind ofrunning together.
They just weren't as clear tome.
But okay, I'm glad we'retalking about it.
Niq (19:32):
It's because there were two stories running concurrently
and at that point, once again,you don't know if the stalker is
not the serial killer.
Like you don't understand alex,you're pulled in so many
directions because alex is alsobeing pulled in so many
directions yeah so, yeah, I, Ican understand, because, also,
(19:53):
like, I had to watch the showtwo times to understand, like,
how kayla fit into the story.
So kayla is like his friend,and then they worked on a case
together and now she's like inthe fbi, um, because I'm just
like, okay, like she's like popsup and does whatever he, she,
he asked her to do.
Hey, can you go get thisinformation?
(20:14):
Can you do this, can you dothat?
And I'm like where, like why isshe doing all of this stuff?
But it's because, like, theyused to be really close, they
used to work together, um, andnow she's in the FBI.
So I guess she kind of hasaccess to more information when
they worked together before.
Jess (20:31):
She was in the FBI then and he was just consulting on a
case with her.
Niq (20:34):
But yeah, yeah, she's been in the FBI okay, I didn't
understand that because she said, hey, you know we worked on
that case together, but you'rethe national hero.
That's what I didn't realizethat she was already in the FBI.
Jess (20:46):
Sometimes the different stuff in private.
Yeah, she's always been in theFBI, the whole time.
Niq (20:51):
Yeah, but she does a lot for him.
I just feel like, do you havean actual job that you're
supposed to do?
Jess (21:01):
But okay.
So let me tell you the verylast scene with her and Bobby
Trey.
She does a lot for him, butshe's no dummy, I think, the
whole time she's also working anangle.
She's also very intelligent,but she's also because how she
presents herself, I think shecomes across as unassuming, so
like she has end goals too.
So what she's doing is alsohelping her.
Niq (21:23):
She does.
Yeah, I also helping her shedoes.
Yeah, I agree, but you don'tsee it to the last minute, right
?
Yeah, I, oh, yeah.
At the end, when she was liketalking to bobby tray, I said,
oh, is she gonna be the villainnext season?
Jess (21:29):
because she is shady and here's the thing, I think it can
go either way, like I'm like, Ifeel like it's intentionally we
don't know if she's shady orshe was working another angle
from the beginning.
Either way, she's workinganother angle from the beginning
.
Either way, she's workinganother angle from the beginning
.
But it's like is she giving himthis deal to get a bigger fish,
which I feel like she might be,but I think it leaves it
intentionally ambiguous, so wedon't know.
(21:50):
So, with that being said, withKayla and Bobby Trey at the end,
when she's offering him thatdeal and the first part of the
deal is just so that fanboydoesn't get the credit that he
wants so bad, and that, I think,is between her and Alex.
The second part of the deal,where she gets all the dirt on
the politicians, I'm like she'seither going to go after them
directly because she is part ofthe FBI and that's who would go
(22:12):
after them, you know.
So she's like this whole timeyou know what I mean like
working the angle, like yeah,I'm gonna help you with your
case because it's gonna help memake some bigger cases, which
could be one angle and I ain'tmad at her about that or I got
all these secrets, on thishollywood, um, you know
hollywood dc elite who are verypowerful people that I can use
at my will and I think that'swhat she's doing.
Niq (22:33):
And the reason why I said that is because she's like she
offered bobby tray like a bigsum of money and I'm just like,
hmm, like I feel like if it waslike the FBI, if it was more
sanctioned, they would haveoffered him like more freedom
and not necessarily cash in hand.
Jess (22:52):
I don't know why cash in hand sounds like CIA to me okay,
but this is what it is, thoughI don't think it's that clear,
because the money that she'soffering him is just.
She's just going to unfreezethe money that she froze, that
the fanboy was paying him.
Remember, she has his money.
Niq (23:11):
I thought they.
I know that they froze thefanboy's money, but I did not
realize that the money, thatthat's where they were getting
the money from.
I know yeah, I know that BobbyTrey's wire didn't go through,
so she's just going to unfreezehis money.
Jess (23:26):
But he has access to the millions that the fanboy was
paying him after he does his 24months.
So I'm like.
So either way, like you know,wouldn't it be nice to have
money All she's got becauseshe's in, that all she's got to
do is unfreeze that money oncehe gets out, because she froze
it.
She's the one that froze it,but she can do it and again, to
me that still could be, andprobably I don't know what the
FBI has latitude to do, but Ifeel like that still could be
(23:48):
within her job and just-.
Niq (23:50):
You're right.
You're right.
Yeah, if she's just unfreezingthat money, then yes, that does
make sense.
I thought that she was comingup, coming out and I'm like that
, that sounds shady but yeah,cause.
Jess (24:02):
Bobby Trey says is this the FBI or is this you?
And she said money, don't knowwhere it came from.
She did say that and I lovethat phrase.
I was like girl.
I definitely mean like her evenmore, though I'm not even gonna
lie.
Niq (24:14):
I was like all right, I do love that he works within a team
and he's not like so often whenthere's like the tortured
genius character.
Like he stands head andshoulders above like the other
people he works with in thisshow he very much, even though
he's good at what he does, he isaround people who are also good
(24:38):
at what they do, who are also,like, well known and respected
for what they do, and I likedthat.
I liked that.
You know, I really enjoyed that.
So the show one of the thingsthat the show tackled and talked
about a lot was therelationship between, like, the
police and the community, and Ithink that's really interesting
(25:02):
because alex and his best friend, who's also his partner, their
childhood best friends to johnthey're both dc policemen but
they are actually from dc.
They still live in thecommunity that they police and
they see themselves as differentbecause of those things.
Jess (25:24):
Yeah, they see themselves as part of the community.
Niq (25:27):
But the community doesn't see them that way.
Jess (25:29):
I mean, do Black people have the latitude of seeing
police officers as part of theircommunity?
They don't.
Niq (25:37):
But I thought that that was very interesting.
They don't, but I thought thatthat was very interesting.
It's a very interestingperspective because they see
themselves very differently thanhow the community sees them and
they have a very complicatedrelationship.
It's very much like when thecommunity feels like they are
doing what they are supposed todo, they are civil with them,
(26:02):
cordial at best.
At the slightest hint that theyfeel like they are not doing
what they're supposed to do,they are vicious towards them.
I honestly respect that a lot.
Jess (26:18):
Is that not our job, but to hold our community leaders
accountable?
I that a lot.
Is that not our job, but tohold our community leaders
accountable.
Niq (26:22):
I have a lot of respect for it because, honestly, if you
look at it, the police are in aposition of power.
It's like if they don't keeptheir foot on their neck, are
they really going to get whatthey want and what they need?
They were from the verybeginning saying hey, amir, is
(26:43):
the the activist that wasmurdered?
And they're like he wasmurdered.
He was murdered and they'relike no, it was probably an
overdose or it was probably asuicide.
And then, like at the most,they were like okay, well, maybe
it was gang activity and gangrelated.
And like the community, they'relike no, you know, he's no
(27:05):
longer involved in drugs, he's acommunity gang affiliate for
years the police literally likehad to be drugged by their
fingernails to acknowledge thatthis man was murdered and it was
not related to the community.
And the question is, how manytimes does that happen across
(27:31):
the country?
Jess (27:34):
That felt so real to me.
You know that they would haveto, Because I do think that in
policing, particularly inAmerica, like they come up with
a narrative and then they try toprove themselves right, and I
think the juxtaposition withthem and Alex and 2John being
actual detectives looking forevidence, you know it's just
(27:56):
very clear and present, becauseI'm like no, they get a
narrative, they get a story andthey try to prove themselves
right, especially when it comesto black people.
It's very hard for them to seeoutside of their own prejudice.
Right, they wanted to make thisa story about gang activity and
drugs so bad because of whatthey think about black people.
Niq (28:15):
And that's the funny thing is, oh, even though the people,
even the people making theconjecture, a lot of times were
also black, because, like therewas like the black female police
officer who worked I think shesaid she either worked in the
gang unit or a lot of times thattime.
Jess (28:31):
That time because the people who are making the
conjecture are mainly the policechief, who's a white woman.
She is the main opposition,because it is not convenient for
her for it to be anything otherthan gang activity.
Because she's running for mayor,so she's trying to shut the
situation down and because sheis a white woman who does not
see black people as fully humanand does not care what happens
(28:51):
to this man.
There's the other two femalecops who I can't really tell
what race they are.
They could be are they could bewhite, they could be something
else, like the one that waspregnant, the one that was
pregnant.
And then there's one with acrinkly hair who's taller than
the Black woman.
The Black woman is the onlyBlack person who is like no,
(29:12):
this is also gang activity.
There's not a lot of Blackpeople saying that.
Niq (29:17):
I guess when I say a lot, he's giving direct evidence on
why it doesn't make sense andshe's arguing with him.
Jess (29:30):
She is.
But again, that argumentstarted before she came into the
room with the police chief.
To me she's very much like atthat point.
She changes in the show.
Eventually she changes over theBlack woman I don't know her
name.
That argument that we're goingto keep this certain narrative
starts with the police chief,the white female police chief.
(29:50):
She is very strong about it.
To me, when the Black womancomes in and is like oh, if it
walks like a duck, talks like aduck kind of attitude of
attitude I'm like she's toeingthe line that the, that the
police chief is already set andso I do place more blame on her
one.
She is the one in the mostpowerful position.
Then you've got the pregnantlady who I can't tell exactly
(30:12):
what her position is.
She, to me she seems like she'shigher than alex and um, yeah,
I think she's the captain, okayso she's the captain, all Okay,
so she's the captain.
And again, even though she knowssomething is off and we know
later on that she knows morethan we knew, she knew she's
still like, well, okay, you'rereally going to have to prove it
for us to go, even though sheknows, what the police chief is
(30:34):
saying doesn't make any senseconsidering the evidence, and
what Alex and 2John are sayingmakes the most sense.
So that opposition.
They're facing oppositionconstantly and that's the other
thing.
It's like to be looking for thetruth.
Trying to find a serial killer,trying to find evidence is
already hard, but every singlestep of the way the system is
(30:55):
fighting them.
Niq (30:57):
Yes, not just the system, the community is also fighting
them too, and I think that wasthe thing that was slightly
frustrating to me, because hisfamily, like, while I understood
the anger, like he had to govisit them too many times to get
all that information he needed,he did.
(31:18):
I'm just like, just sayeverything.
Also, here's a question thatyou may not be able to answer
what does take place in presentday?
Yeah, I think so.
Okay, you think it does takeplace in present day.
So then this is my question iswell, let's go, let's talk about
what I feel like is a plot hole.
(31:38):
Okay, so um Amir is dead.
They're investigating his uhmurder.
They find out that his lastphone call was to one of his
friends, tavio.
They're trying to go talk toTavio.
You know about what the messagewas, tavio.
They try to go talk to Tavio.
You know about what the messagewas.
Tavio ends up getting killedand they're trying to get to
(31:59):
Tavio's phone right, tavio'sbaby mama.
She finds the phone and shegoes on the run trying to get
this information to someone whocan help.
If it's present day, why didyou not post the audio on social
media?
Jess (32:15):
Literally, literally said that, literally said that, like
yesterday, I did my recent watchwith a friend and both were
like why didn't she just emailit?
Why did she post it on socialmedia?
Why did she email it to thereporter?
Why is she going on the run andhaving to give this phone in
person?
Niq (32:32):
I would have sent that message to everybody.
You could not in person.
I would have sent that messageto every body so that you could
not ignore it.
I would have texted toeverybody, emailed it.
It would have been on Twitter.
It would have been all oversocial media, everywhere.
That's what I'm like.
That's why I asked Did they saythis?
Jess (32:50):
To your point I didn't even know.
Niq (32:53):
Anybody mentioned social media.
Jess (32:55):
That phone did look old.
Niq (32:58):
But the little boy had an iPad.
Jess (33:00):
The little boy had an iPad , yeah, but the phone Tapio's
phone did not have a big enoughscreen.
It just looked really old.
I'm like was it a flip phone orwas it one of Nokia's?
Yeah, it did look old.
Niq (33:13):
I'm like, instead of going on the run, like the same day
you got the phone, you couldhave sent that message out to
everybody, literally everybody,and you wouldn't have had to go
on the run if you had text thatthing to yourself when you found
that phone and put it rightback in his body, you would
still be alive, raising yourchild, that's very true, that's
very true, so that honestly waslike and looking at her, the
(33:35):
body of her dead boyfriend, butyeah, you, but you know enough
to take the phone.
You were thinking strategicallyto a certain point, but you know
like I would have.
This is what I would have done.
I would have sent the messageto myself and took the phone to
the police.
Let the police, if they'regoing to investigate, let them
investigate.
But I also have a copy of themessage now that I can send and
(34:00):
show to any and everybody.
That part of the story did notmake sense to me.
Jess (34:06):
It did not make sense to me either, and I guess the only
explanation I can is that you'regrieving and not feeling safe,
because Cross does say somethingto the fact that she's going
someplace that's familiarbecause she runs away to a hotel
that's like in her neighborhood, and so he's like, well, she's
going to a place that's familiarand close, someplace that she
(34:27):
would have seen throughout herchildhood and been comfortable.
Maybe that's why your decisionsare not making sense, because,
yeah, I would have just emailedit to the.
Even if you just wanted to sendit to the reporter, I would
have emailed it to the reporter.
Niq (34:38):
So I saw people doing during the show online dating,
but I did not see anybody onsocial media, like I didn't see
anybody reference Twitter.
I know social media existed ifthere was iPads, if there was
online dating, but it's almostlike social media did not exist
(34:59):
in this particular world.
Jess (35:00):
That's true, you don't see anything on social media.
Even the protest and activismwould have been on social media.
Niq (35:07):
Right In that respect, james Patterson.
These books were coming out inthe 90s.
That's why I'm like what yearis this?
But there are modern thingshappening.
Jess (35:23):
Yeah, the clothes age.
Niq (35:24):
So it doesn't make sense for there not to be social media
.
But I guess maybe in thisparticular world there is no
social media because no onereferenced social media at all
and social media would have keptthat girl alive.
Also, I also did not understandwhy Tavio, who was Amir's best
(35:45):
friend, why he didn't tell thepolice about the message when
they came to interview himinitially, and he was with the
family and he's trying toconvince the family I'm sorry,
the family at this point istrying to convince the police
that he's been murdered, becausethis is their first time coming
in Alex and Tujan and they'retalking to the family, you know,
(36:06):
because at this point they'vebeen told hey, it's probably an
overdose or a suicide, and thefamily is trying to convince him
, trying to convince him, tryingto convince them that there's a
murder.
Tavio is right there in theroom, literally right there in
the room.
He could have played themessage for them right then.
(36:26):
Why did he not do that?
Jess (36:28):
That's how strong his distrust of the police are.
He was not going to give themany information about anything,
and I think that's true for thefamily too, as to why they had
to go back so many times to getany information.
Niq (36:42):
Did he play the message for the family?
I don't think he did Once again.
Jess (36:47):
And the other thing about it is that because he's going,
because, okay, so Amir is gayand Amir thinks his mother does
not know, right?
So the sister and Tavio areboth trying to keep this
information from the motherbecause they think the mother
doesn't know, but of course themother knows yes, the mother
knows, but it's not like in themessage.
Niq (37:06):
He's like hey, I'm gay, help me.
Jess (37:10):
He doesn't mention his sexuality in the message he said
I went out on a date with thisdude and I think he gave me
something.
He drugged me.
Oh then.
Niq (37:17):
I didn't hear that part, yeah.
Jess (37:18):
That's how you find out he's gay when you first hear the
voicemail and he's like I wentout on a date with this dude,
something's off, you know, comeget me.
He's telling Tabio to come gethim and that's why how Bobby
Trey finds him.
Oh, I didn't know he was gayuntil the mama was like well,
you know he gay Once.
(37:40):
They played the voicemailbecause that's how he got them.
He got both of them from datingsites, just different dating
sites.
Niq (37:44):
I know he got them from dating sites, but when I heard
the voicemail, all I heard wassomebody put something in my
something.
He said he was on a date.
Okay, so then I completelymissed that part, because when
the mama was like he gay, I waslike what?
Jess (38:01):
So that's also part of the reason why he's not sharing
that information with them,because he's still trying to
protect him, because they arefriends.
Niq (38:07):
Yeah, that's his best friend, but okay, so let's say
he did not want the mom to know.
Why did he not play the messagefor the sister, like I?
Just there was way too muchsegmented information for me,
for people who swear that theywant this murder solved it's
(38:31):
because they're not thinkingstraight and they are they just
have this extreme distrust forthe police.
Jess (38:37):
But yes, it does not make sense to both be pushing the
police to solve a murder and notgiving them vital information
that would help solve the murder.
Niq (38:45):
Right, but I honestly feel like that's kind of realistic.
Jess (38:50):
I agree.
That's why it doesn't bother me.
Niq (38:52):
It's frustrating though it's frustrating, but there is a
realism, because Black peoplehave a very complicated
relationship with the police.
We want to be protected likeany other community, but we
don't feel like we are protected, and so you never know what
interaction is going to go badly, even when you're the victim.
(39:16):
Do you know how many timeswhite people call the police
because they're being attackedor they're being assaulted or
they're being robbed and thepolice come and shoot them or
shoot their husband or shoottheir son?
Jess (39:27):
Do you know how many times I've had so many conversations
with moms who are like I wasscared to call the police
because you know my son has anissue, a mental health issue,
and then they won't?
I'm afraid that they're goingto come and kill him, you know.
And so they don't call thepolice when they need help.
And that's why that interaction, as frustrating as it is, it
(39:47):
makes perfect sense to me, givenBlack people in America's
relationship with the police,because you don't know what you
can trust them with, what youcan't, what they will use
against you, and that's whythey're so closed mouth.
Niq (39:57):
Right Now.
Okay, so while we're talkingabout people going complicated
relationships with the police,so there's a scene where Alex is
at a dinner party and these arelike the fancier Black people,
these are like the bougie DCBlack blacks and he's like had a
little dinner party and he getsinto it with one of the party
(40:20):
goers who I feel like ispressing him unnecessarily hard
about being a police officer.
He was like here's the thingwas Alex's reaction okay, it was
not.
Yeah, he has anger issues.
He does, which makes you seemeven crazier.
When people are already sayingyou shouldn't be a cop and then
(40:42):
you show you have anger issues,it makes you look even crazier.
But I have complicated feelingsabout the police.
I'm not going to sit at a tablewith a cop and be like oh my
God, how are you even a cop?
How is that even a productiveconversation?
Jess (41:00):
He wasn't trying to have a productive conversation, he was
trying to provoke him.
Niq (41:04):
And he did a good job he did.
I'm just like this is weird.
Who does this at a dinner party?
Jess (41:09):
There are a lot of pissing contests in this show.
There's so many, and that's oneof them, and that's another
reason why that scene definitelyirritated me too.
But at the same time, you knowit's real because it's like
anytime men get a chance to saymine is bigger, they're going to
, and he literally says that atthe beginning.
(41:29):
I love that scene.
Niq (41:32):
Though that scene was hilarious because I said the
same.
Though that scene was hilariousbecause I said the same thing.
That man said I'm like you gotyour thing in his face.
Jess (41:40):
He had it so close to his face.
That was hilarious to me.
So that was a pissing contestand he was trying to provoke him
.
I don't know why, because Ithink he just had to be
intimidated by all this.
That is a huge hunk of man.
So I get it.
I don't care what you do for aliving, you cannot compare.
But so I think you know he justwanted to get under his skin
(42:03):
and he did.
The issue I have with that sceneis that that's the one
unrealistic response that Ithink we got from Alex, and not
even the anger or the fighting,because that makes sense in the
context of what you know thathe's going through.
But when he points out thisexample, it said with the police
, if you, if you, somethinghappens to you and the police
and somebody is about to beatyou, you know what?
Who are you going to call?
(42:24):
I hate that question for the,when they ask that question to
black people, because that isalways an issue for black people
and I'm like and you, as ablack person, know that Black
people always struggle as towhether or not they can call the
police when they're in danger.
We just talked about that andI'm like so that's not a weapon
you could throw up against us.
That's some dumb thing whitepeople say to us because they
(42:46):
don't understand that every timewe have to have an interaction
with the police, even if we knowwe're the victim, we have to go
through a process of is itworth it?
Would it be better if I justget robbed and then wait till
the robber's gone than have todeal with the possibility of
dying from the police becausethe robber might just take my
stuff?
Niq (43:03):
Right Police do not prevent crimes and they have a really
really, really low solve ratealso.
So, like I think, yeah, so Iagree, who's going to help you
if somebody's assaulting you?
Probably my cousins, honestly,for me, honestly.
Jess (43:23):
You know that's a wrestle every time.
Every time I've been in asituation where I've had to call
the police.
That is something that youwrestle with literally.
I don't know if you rememberwhen I was living with that um
and that, and then we were andwe had that person in in the
shed behind the house.
Yeah, we didn't know it was aperson, we just saw the light
flashing.
(43:44):
So I was in a neighborhood thatwas like predominantly white.
We had one friend on the streetbehind us that we knew, um and
and that, and that was a blackman.
I we called the police firstand we called that person next,
do you know?
So we, you know they stoppedour friend on the way to come to
us.
The very police that showed upat the house stopped to pull him
(44:06):
over first before he got to us.
It is always a struggle everytime and, yes, we are in an
emergency, trying to thinkthrough things, to think if it's
worth it so like.
That question is ridiculous, asa Black person, to ask another
Black person you already knowwhy haven't you told the police
that you work for and work withthat you've got a stalker for
(44:27):
that same reason.
Niq (44:34):
So, yeah, I the show.
I enjoyed the show overall.
I did.
I thought it was a good.
I thought it was a good story.
It's interesting, like what,what they're gonna do, like if
they get a season two, becauselike, is it realistic that he
(44:54):
runs up on another serial killeror you like?
You know what I'm saying likewhat season two?
oh really.
So I'm like what is the what isrealistic?
Is he going to get called awayto investigate something
interesting?
Or you know, like I'm how many,how many serial killers are
going to come to DC?
(45:15):
Or maybe like what's going tohappen?
He's already done a big childabduction case because that's
how he got famous before.
Now he's done this serialkiller.
So I'm like what's going to be?
Like the major overarching, youknow story of season two, what
seems realistic?
Because the show is very muchbased in reality.
Jess (45:42):
But there are so many Alex Cross books, though, so I think
they can go in really whateverdirection.
Yeah, I'm looking at the list.
There's a whole bunch, there'sa lot of places he can go.
I think like he could like.
It doesn't necessarily it couldbe, it could oh goodness, I'm
so low for my words but they cancontinue in the direction of
serial killers, and you couldjust have a different kind of
serial killer, or it could be adifferent kind of crime.
Niq (46:00):
Do you think he's going to get pulled?
If it's another serial killer,is he being pulled as a
consultant or another serialkiller just happens to operate
in DC?
Because, honestly, nowadays,like serial killers are so far
and few in between, I don't knowif it's technology it's harder
to not get caught these days, orif people are finding other
(46:20):
ways to let out their violent,sick tendencies in other ways.
I don't know.
Jess (46:28):
So let me pose something to you, and I still don't know
what direction we're going to goin season two.
I think they're going to pickup with something with the woman
that we saw at the end, andthat's going to be one storyline
, and then, of course, there'sprobably going to be some other
crimes that he's solving.
But let me pose it to you thisway they would have never caught
this particular serial killerif Alex hadn't really pushed it.
(46:50):
You know, they would have justwritten this off as gang
violence and went on Like arethere ones that are going
undetected because of thevictims they choose, because I
think that's always been truefor them?
Niq (47:01):
Now that has.
I agree that, historically,like, the most prolific serial
killers usually choose people wedon't care about, like homeless
people, hookers, gay men, andwhen I say people we don't care
about, I mean like society atlarge, not me personally.
But you know, like it's alwayslike a lot of times a
marginalized group of people,you know, and they'll operate
(47:27):
over wide areas, like truckdrivers.
I think I've seen, like youknow, truck drivers who like
pick up, like prostitutes, andso it's hard to tie them
together.
But I just think, oh, like Ifeel, like in the 70s and 80s,
like serial killers.
It seemed like they were likepopping up, like crazy.
Jess (47:49):
Ok, so here's my other thing.
I don't know that I agree withyou that there are less.
I hope you're right.
I don't know that I agree withyou that there are less.
I don't think that they'renecessarily less.
One of the other things that Ithink this show points out well
is an issue that I personallyhave with policing and how we
train police, and that thatthere are not like Alex is good,
(48:10):
because he also has thatadditional benefit of being a
forensic psychologist andstudying people and learning the
motivations of people.
I feel like you could just runup the ranks as a regular cop
and then eventually becomedetective.
There's no training on how toreally find things.
That's why we also get thetunnel vision of.
This is what I think happens.
So let me prove myself rightinstead of let me look for the
truth.
So again, are things just notbeing detected because they're
(48:31):
not being connected?
Because they're not becausebecause police get a particular
narrative and then they try toprove themselves right.
Niq (48:38):
I don't know how did all of a sudden like it?
Well, I think serial killersreally are something like the
FBI usually does, I think, butit just seems like Not
identified as serial killers.
Jess (48:52):
Is my point Right I?
Niq (48:53):
don't know.
Jess (48:55):
Police work is not good enough to identify that.
Niq (48:58):
Maybe it's the loud.
Serial killers are a thing ofthe past.
You know what I'm saying.
Jess (49:05):
The ones who are potentially trying to taunt you,
taunt the police and that kindof stuff and mess with the ones
who are intentionally trying totaunt you, taunt the police and
that kind of stuff and mess withyou, or who are very
ritualistic about it.
That's our idea of what it is,but it's really.
If you've killed what?
Five or more people, I justthink that they're not being
(49:25):
connected or detected.
Niq (49:27):
Because they're doing it in a way that's more quiet.
Jess (49:28):
I don't know if they're not being connected or detected
Because they're doing it in away that's more quiet I don't
know if they're intentionallybeing quiet or just not in
something like we very much seeserial killer as who this guy is
like, the guy Ramsey.
That's how we see them, that'show we see all of them.
But in reality, what if they'rejust, if it's not that fancy
(49:49):
and ritualistic, and so thepolice are not putting it
together as such, but that'sessentially what it is.
Niq (49:55):
I don't know, and someone needs to come out with a
documentary what happened to theserial killer, and let me know
I'll watch it.
So, holistically, is thereanything else you want to talk
(50:17):
about?
Um, as far as the show, I knowwe I want to do some, some deep
dives next, but do you think,holistically, we talked about
the show?
Jess (50:24):
well I was.
Overall, I think that the showis really good.
I like that it brings up a lotof the issues that we talk about
and just how difficult it wouldbe to be a Black police officer
and have to deal with the twoin the middle of two worlds, and
especially to be one withscruples.
You know what I mean, becausewe kind of see that him
juxtapose the other Black femalepolice officer who is like I'm
(50:45):
just going to get along untilshe doesn't.
I like that overall policeofficer who is like I'm just
going to get along until shedoesn't.
You know, I like that Overall.
Like I said, some weird issueswith pacing on the show, but I
feel like they catch up and theymake up for it.
It's still overall a reallygood quality show and I like the
writing.
I think that's all, but yeahoverall really enjoyable.
Niq (51:04):
Yeah, really I think that they did a good job with the
show.
The story was interesting.
You know the characters arecharacters that I care about, so
you know I want to see you knowwhat happens next.
I enjoy, like I said, I enjoyedthe setting.
I feel like they really gave alot of love and a lot of respect
to DC, so I really enjoyed itand I would definitely
(51:29):
definitely watch a season two.
I'm like we just really havebeen picking like really good
shows a lot.
Jess (51:33):
I'm so glad that you enjoyed this.
I was a little worried about it.
Niq (51:35):
I was like really yeah, no, I knew like I was excited
because, like I told you, like Iwatched the Alex Cross movie
with Tyler Perry, because I didyou watch Morgan Freeman?
Yes, I did, but that was solong ago.
Yeah.
Jess (51:51):
I don't.
Tyler Perry, did you watch theone with Morgan Freeman?
Niq (51:52):
Yes, I did, but that was so long ago, I don't remember, it
was so long ago and so the onewith Tyler Perry.
It just pissed me off.
I'm not going to lie.
Jess (51:59):
It pissed me off.
Before I watched it I was likeno, no, and I'm not a person
who's read the books but I stillknow that this is an important
character to a lot of people.
Niq (52:09):
It is it really.
It really is.
It is.
He is an important characterbecause, like, like when I was a
child, like reading these books, like a famous like black
detective who's like apsychologist, like that's, that
was like not normal you know,yeah, so no, yeah, he's
definitely perfect for it, andnot just because I think he's
(52:30):
perfect for everything I doagree um his person.
It's so hard for his personalitynot to shine through.
Yes, whatever character heplays and it's not that he's he
plays the same person because hedoesn't play the same person.
But there is just anunderlining part of his
(52:52):
personality that always shinesthrough and I just love when I
see it.
Jess (52:58):
I love when I see it peek through.
It's like him picking on 2Johnand bringing up the Old Spice
thing, because Isaiah Mustafaplays 2John.
It was the Old Spice guy Himsaying oh, you smell like my
balls in Old Spice.
You get a little bit of that,and it does.
You know, I'm a huge Leveragefan.
Leverage is one of my favoriteshows.
So yeah, I know you say likeyou still see glimpses of his
personality, because I justdon't feel like that character
(53:19):
would have been that he played.
Leverage would have been asdynamic if anybody else had
played it Absolutely not I.
I don't.
And I think, because there's agenuineness that comes across
with Aldous Hodge that iswonderful, and there's a
blackness that comes across withhim, no matter what he does,
because I'm like I don't carewhat you say, they wrote that
character general.
He happened to be black but hewas like but you're going to
(53:40):
feel that I'm a black man inthis.
And then it made the showbetter it did, it did.
Niq (53:45):
Yeah, that he.
I love Lever do me too.
It's on my yearly watch.
Like I have to watch leverageevery year, yeah, yearly.
You know what?
The funny thing I have so manyshows on my yearly.
Like half of the tv I watchevery year is our shows that I'm
(54:05):
re-watching, so so it's like Ican't watch any show more than
once a year because I have somany on my list.
I'm like a huge re-watcher.
Jess (54:14):
I'm a huge re-watcher too, and Leverage is probably the
show I watch the most honestly.
Niq (54:19):
Yeah.
Jess (54:19):
I do love it.
Niq (54:20):
I do love it.
It's yeah, I love an ensemblecast, me too, you know.
Jess (54:29):
Experts that are really good at whatever they do.
Yes To come together to dosomething.
Niq (54:34):
Do you want to come together to do crimes?
Jess (54:36):
Or do you want to come together to save the world, or a
little bit of both?
Niq (54:40):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I love an anti-hero with aheart of gold.
Oh yeah, but the next episode.
Honestly, I'm really excitedbecause I really want to talk
about relationships and Alex'srelationships.
I think there's a lot.
(55:01):
There's a lot in there, see younext episode.
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