February 26, 2025 • 60 mins
Exploring the deep influences of toxic relationships and family dynamics on self-esteem, we reflect on how these patterns shape our adult lives. The episode highlights the importance of recognizing unhealthy cycles and offers practical insights for breaking free.
• Examining the impacts of toxic relationships on personal identity
• Discussing how family dynamics can reinforce self-esteem issues
• The role of parental influence in shaping adult relationships
• Exploring the nature of brother-sister dynamics and loyalty
• Highlighting the importance of friendship and community support
• Acknowledging the challenges of establishing healthy boundaries
• Understanding emotional dependency and its origins
• Strategies for fostering self-love and acceptance
• Empowering listeners to reclaim their narratives and identities
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi guys, welcome back On today's episode.
We're going to be discussinghow to die alone.
I'm your host, nick.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Jess.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm really excited about today's episode because
we're going to be talking aboutrelationships, and I don't know
if I've had so many toxicrelationships.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Say that again.
You don't know if you've had somany toxic relationships.
I'm going to say it again youdon't know if you've had so many
toxic relationships I've neverseen a show that has had so many
toxic relationships crammed in.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's mind-blowing yeah.
So in the first episode we kindof talked about Melissa's
self-esteem problems, how shedoesn't feel like she's worthy
of love, and so my firstquestion would be how does
somebody get that way?
And then my answer would be hermother.
(00:54):
Yeah her mama, her mama also,but I feel like he learned that
from the mom.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
So, yeah, definitely.
Her family of origin from themom.
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
So, yeah, definitely her familyof origin, her mom, who seems
like she has spent her entirelife, melissa's entire life,
breaking her self-esteem down tobe as low as it is, because if
she has always talked to herlike she talks to her as an
adult, I'm sure hearing thosekind of things, as a child has
probably been, was probablyreally hard.
And then she set up thisdynamic because I really think
(01:24):
the brother and her relationshipand why a big the mom is the
reason why it's so toxic and shereally kind of plays a big role
in that dysfunction.
And then, on top of that,there's something going on with
the father that they're notclear about.
So we know the father is dead,the brother has a different
(01:44):
opinion of the father, butMelissa also says at some point
like you got his good years.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So making it seem like there was some kind of
change, you know, by the timeshe came along to, where he was
not as good or present as father, but it's not clear that like
was he there and just a badperson Did he leave.
You know, we just know he diedwhen I think I was about 14.
The brother was about 14.
Not Alex, alex, I'm sorry.
(02:11):
Alex is the boyfriend.
What's the brother's name?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Brian.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Brian when Brian was about 14.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Is that right, though Is his name Brian.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
That feels right.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
It does feel right, but I've been wrong before.
Names is not your strong point,it's not, and I lean into it.
So that what she said about thefather when she said, oh, you
got his good years For me, hewas just like the first man who
(02:44):
did, she say, didn't want me,and I'm like yikes, and so I
always I have a ton of questions, a ton of threads, I guess, to
pull.
So the mom made a comment to herbrother about how the father
(03:06):
was not a good man.
Did she explain exactly in whatway she felt like he wasn't a
good man?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
No, that's what I'm saying.
Everybody kind of alludes tothe fact that there was
something wrong, something goingon with the father, but they
never said specifically what itwas.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
I mean definitely.
I think there's alcoholism,because she was saying that he
was a drunk.
I didn't miss that.
I thought she said when she.
I thought she said you got thebest of him.
By the time I came along he wasdrunk.
And then she made the commentabout he was the first man.
Maybe I made that up.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I missed that part completely.
I don't remember that.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I don't know, maybe I just was taking that.
He was an alcoholic, I don'tknow where.
I got that.
From now I'll be honest and saysometimes I get feelings from
things and they're not true.
But now I have to go back andwatch the scene again because I
thought she made reference tohim being drunk.
I think so, brother is Brian.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Brother's name is Brian.
I think so.
Brother's name is Brian.
Brother's name is Brian.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I was right, so you have.
I wonder if part of the momtreating the daughter badly has
to do with the dad.
And I say that is because if,according to what Melissaissa
said, the father was betterbefore she came along.
(04:30):
You know, like sometimes, likeyou have another child and then
things go south and the parentwill take it out on that child
as if it was the child's fault.
I wonder if there was some ofthat, like their marriage got
worse after she was born, notnecessarily because of her, but
just because that's how thingsgo sometimes.
Yeah, mom took it out on herand criticized her.
(04:52):
You know, you obviously see,her mom is a boy, mom.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
And that's the thing.
I don't think that that ispossible, but I don't think we
have any evidence of that yet.
What I think is more clear andpresent is that the mom has an
issue with women.
You know what I mean.
She has a very kind of it seemslike old school understanding
of women and men and what men'srole are, because I think she
probably again alludes to, notdirectly states, but she kind of
(05:19):
put him in the place of thelike he kind of made her son her
husband.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Absolutely.
Even the way she talks to himabout how he needs to tighten it
up, it's you know he has to bethe leader of the family.
No, he doesn't want to, but hehas to.
It's his job.
No, it was very much givinglike, oh, you are my new husband
energy which, when women dothat, it bothers me so much.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
And also even though I know there's racial elements
too at play, but that's also whyshe wasn't going to like his
wife regardless.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Oh, she wasn't, she wasn't going to like his wife,
regardless, he's married to awhite woman in the story and I
think because he's married to awhite woman, it makes it easier
for her to say, oh, I don't likeher.
But if he was married to ablack woman, she was not going
to like him either.
It would just be, she wouldjust have less of a standing Not
(06:14):
that she has a standing becausehis wife is white, but, you
know, it gives her a little bitof cover to say, oh well, we're
just so different and why didn'the choose someone that looked
like me?
And you know, know, you can sayall those things that don't
matter, because who you're yourchild marries has absolutely
nothing to do with you, and Ithink it's weird to be like, oh,
marry somebody like me, that'screepy that is creepy, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So I think she has a bunch of toxic um stuff about
like male and femalerelationships and dynamics.
Um pushes on melissa, on bothher children, honestly, okay,
the reason why I say this isbecause when her and I'm
assuming that that's her sister,the blonde lady at the
thanksgiving I'm assuming that'sher sister because I think
that's their um when they aretalking to and melissa's trying
(06:58):
to talk about her career, sheand she's like they're very
clearly belittling her.
Um, uh and she's I fell into, Iwent to a management program.
She goes oh, I thought you fellinto a man.
You know what I mean.
Like her, having or not having aboyfriend is the most important
part of their life.
And when women do that, that'susually because you have these
really old school kind of youknow toxic beliefs about men and
(07:18):
women.
And then they're harping on herweight the way that they do,
you Harping on her weight theway that they do.
You know.
Again, that's about what istraditionally attractive and you
being able to appeal to anattractive man.
I think it's more than that.
So I don't think I don't thinkany female that came out of her.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
She was going like I'm going to say this Even if
her and Alex were still togetherbecause Alex is very well put
together, you know he willpresent well to a family.
Because Alex is very well puttogether, you know he will
present well to a family.
If she bought Alex aThanksgiving dinner, her mom
would have still treated herlike crap, probably all up in
Alex's face and but she stillwould have treated her like so.
Even having a man would nothave saved her because her mom
(08:00):
does not like her no, but I'msaying she does not like women.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
You know what I mean.
So I completely agree witheverything you just said.
But again, that's these weird.
Does not like her.
No, but I'm saying she does notlike women.
You know what I mean.
So I completely agree witheverything you just said, but
again.
That's these weird.
Like you could be a woman andstill be misogynist Absolutely.
And so to me, that's why I seeit Like, yeah, no, if she had a
man she would still hate her,but if she had Alex and she was
still plus size, she still wouldbe in on.
You're going to lose that man.
Whatever, it's a vehicle tojust hate on this woman.
(08:29):
If she actually lost weight, itwould be like you're too skinny
, you look sickly.
She has an issue with women.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, and that's really sad.
It's really sad.
A lot of women I've heard themsay that their mom was their
first bully.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Mm.
Hmm, this is a thousand percenttrue in this case.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, it is.
And so she has a toxicrelationship with her, her mom,
and it feeds into a toxicrelationship with her brother,
because she doesn't, you know,she feels like you know, he puts
her down the way that the momdoes.
The mom hits the two of themagainst each other, I feel like,
(09:13):
and then, kind of like, stepsback and then, when things get
too chaotic, I feel like shesteps in and tries to pretend
that she's the referee.
But it's like you started thefight, you absolutely started
the fight.
You steadily talk about howwonderful he is and how terrible
she is, and then, when they goat it, then you're like, oh, you
(09:33):
can't, don't be like that,don't do that, you know.
Yeah, her brother, I'm tryingto, he triggered you were
talking about triggering.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
He triggered the hell out of me.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I want to be.
I have some empathy for thebrother in some respects.
Those respects are I'm going tosay this his father dying was
very traumatic on him and it'svery obvious he did not get the
help that he needed and he stillis not over that no, he's not
(10:13):
his mom is inappropriate withhim.
She's made him her husband youknow what I mean, and it made
him feel like he's responsiblefor everybody in the family, and
I don't think that that's fair,and I don't think if he was a
(10:34):
brother, if he was a girl or boy, I don't think that would have
been fair.
No, now I'm gonna, I, but the.
What is funny to me, though, isthe position that he is in in
his family is typically theposition that you see the oldest
daughter in.
It is In.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Black families.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I will say yes, I'm sorry, in Black families the
position of being the caretakerand the keeper and the fixer and
the saver in black families istypically the oldest daughter
and it doesn't create issues.
It does create issues it like,but I feel like we have been
(11:18):
trained as black women to bearit in silence.
We're not allowed to use thatas an excuse, and I think he
uses that position that he'sbeen put in in his family as an
excuse to be out of control andto be mean and to be aggressive
(11:40):
and to be rude.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
So, whereas I have empathy for him, it only can go
so far, because I'm just likeyou are.
At this point, I feel likeyou're college educated.
You keep talking about how youhave a financial success.
Why are you not in therapy?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Well, I also.
While that is true, the motherhas put him in this position.
She has definitely made him herhusband and he does help his
mother and his sister.
At times, I still think heoverplays his hand.
At the end of the day, like themost of the stuff that you are
complaining about is regulareveryday stuff.
That is also the result of yourchoices.
(12:22):
You are married.
It doesn't seem like your wifeworks.
That's the decision that y'allmade together.
So then the financial piece ofit being on you again, that's
the decision that y'all madetogether.
You are choosing not to shareyour struggles with your wife.
You know, even though she'sthere every five seconds, asking
you what's wrong, trying tocoddle you, you know you still
(12:43):
won't open up and share with herand spread that.
And then you keep sayingbecause you guys are my
dependents, you know he saidthat line and I'm like, so you
can't have a conversation withthem?
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Right.
That is something you made up,sir, I think his he's not
willing to stand up to his mom.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
He's not.
But you don't have to stand up.
Your wife could be yourconfidant.
What the heck did you marry herfor?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
and she's more than willing to be that confidant she
is and cause she sees himbreaking down and she's trying
to do stuff like giving himbreathing exercises and she,
honestly, is very yeah, she istrying to help, she's very
understanding and she is begginghim to open up, but he has his
mom in his head who told him tohis face when he got aggressive
(13:33):
and she's like it doesn't matterhow much you have on you, close
your mouth, don't let you.
Don't let it out.
That's a good point.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
That is, but also like, and I think overall his
responsibilities are so basic,you know what I mean Like you
are a married man with astay-at-home wife.
Big whoop, that's most, notmost, but that's a lot of
married men.
Why are you acting like you arelifting mountains on your
(14:03):
shoulders?
You decided to have a wife.
That doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Right and also taking care, because I can tell that
he does not take care of his momcompletely financially.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
No, he doesn't.
He doesn't take care of eitherof them, but he acts like he
does.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
He does, and I'm like that once again, having older
parents, it is very normal thatyou have to assist them with
different things.
That it is very normal that youhave to assist them with
different things.
That, once again, is verynormal and that's just a part of
being in a family.
As your parents age, they needmore and more.
But what he does not do is hedoes not put in boundaries, no,
(14:38):
and then he complains about them, because even with his sister,
you know, he complains and saysoh, you know what?
What you're on my family planon my phone and you only call me
when you need something.
And like then he like sheoffered to babysit for him and
he's like I would never trustyou.
And which is so interesting tome because when she came over
for thanksgiving, his daughteris like you're my favorite
(15:01):
person, I'm so thankful for you.
Here's a gift.
No one else got a gift from her, you know.
So it's it's very obvious thatshe has a good relationship.
She has a good relationshipwith his wife.
You know, like I think, yoursister is stealing money from us
.
She stole your, she stole yoursocial security card.
She still, like, has a goodrelationship.
So but he.
But that's not when he talks toher, that's not how he speaks to
(15:22):
her that's not how he speaks toher no and so, instead of just
putting boundaries in place andhe could easily say listen, you
know, I have my own family, Ihave a wife, I have kids.
My wife does not work, I'mtaking care of her financially,
I can no longer lend you moneyjust a boundary I need to set in
(15:44):
place.
He doesn't say that, no, hegives her whatever money she's
asking for, when she's asking.
I don't even know how much itis, I don't feel like it's a
whole lot.
I don't either, but you know,hey, I don't know.
But it's very apparent thathe's helped her out financially
in the past.
Instead of just putting aboundary in place by saying, hey
(16:04):
, I can't be your first phonecall because I have a lot going
on in my life, I can't lend youmoney, instead of saying those
things, he will do things forher and then throw them in her
face.
They're going to feel terribleabout it.
I don't like that.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
That's what I don't like.
Instead of saying you got threemonths to get off my family
plan.
You know what I mean.
That's easy.
She got a full-time job Eventhough she doesn't make a lot of
money.
You can afford your cell phonebill.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I also don't understand.
I'm like or pay part of thebill for him, so he will let you
stay on the family plan becauseobviously it's a discount the
more phones are on there.
Why are you not sending himmoney per month so he sees you
as a benefit, being on hisfamily plan instead of a problem
?
And I know you don't even haveto open your mouth.
(16:53):
I know you.
That would be the world's worstthing for you to be on somebody
else's bill.
You know like I.
I know how.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
That's not where I was going to go, even if she was
doing that even if she wasdoing that, he still would
complain that she's on there,because the idea of who she is
and who she and you know to him,like his construction of her in
his mind, I think nothingchanges.
She's a bum, she can't doanything.
So I think even if she wasn't,him money, um, he was still
(17:24):
complaining.
But she's still on my familyplate.
You know what I mean.
That's what he wants.
He wants to be able to complain, he wants to do the woe is me
thing and he wants to do I'm sosuccessful, you're such a bum.
So no, the answer is to get offhis family plate.
And now we're talking about me.
I will never ask you foranything.
I know absolutely I will neverask you for anything.
(17:45):
I know.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Absolutely, I will never.
And so who I am.
I would have gone no contactwith both of them and I know
that's hard because she lovesher niece and nephew and she
even likes his wife.
But I would be permanently nocontact with the mom and I would
be no contact with him for longenough for him to understand
(18:07):
you're not going to talk to meany kind of way.
I'm getting my life together.
I will reach back out when Ifeel like we are on even keel
and we can come together asadults.
I don't need anything from you,you don't need anything from me
, and we can see where we are at.
I think unless he gets some help, though, he's still going to
see her negatively well then, Imean the no contact stands you
(18:30):
know what I'm saying like it canonly work if it's going to work
, but I just don't think thatanybody I don't care who they
are is guaranteed access to youno, but even the wife talked
about, even with the wifeknowing that she stole the
social security number, stillsaid I don't like the way he
talks to you Because it'sabusive.
(18:54):
Let's call it what it is it'sabusive.
And he feels like you know what?
I have so much pressure on me.
To relieve that pressure, I'mgoing to belittle you and be
aggressive to you and I'm like.
That doesn't work like that.
You know what.
You know what.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I'm speculating here, hard speculation, but I wonder
if that's how the dad treatedthe mom and the mom doesn't have
a problem with him, becausethey keep saying the dad is bad.
But I'm not really clear onwhether or not.
I don't think the dad left, butI'm just not sure.
But I'm wondering if the dadbelittled and all this kind of
stuff and made the mom feel bad.
And the mom doesn't have anissue with brian because brian
(19:37):
doesn't treat her that way, butshe's okay with her treating
melissa that way I don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Because in the kitchen she's like oh, you lost
your cool.
You know you're not allowed todo that.
You need to keep it tight andbutton it up.
And then she's like go takethis pot to your sister.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Any, other time he's talking down to her, she has no
problem.
But as soon as Melissa clapsback, she's sneering at her.
She's looking at negativity.
So I don't really think she hasa problem with him talking to
her.
Cash crazy.
She got upset because he losthis temper and started yelling.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yes, okay, I agree with that.
I agree that it was.
She wants him to keep a certainperception.
So, yeah, he can talk crazy toher.
She doesn't want him yellingand screaming because that makes
him look bad, not that it makesMelissa feel bad.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And that's why I'm wondering if that's who the dad
was to her and why he's a badguy.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I don't know.
I would love more information.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, we need more information.
I told you I'm speculating hard.
This does not happen in avacuum.
You know what I mean.
Like these kind of like.
You know this comes fromsomewhere Right, and so the dad
was a bad person because hetreated me like he treated
Melissa, but I don't care howyou treat Melissa, right?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
the dad was a screamer and a yeller, so don't
scream and yell at her.
You can still dog her out, butdon't raise your voice right,
which is wild.
Yeah, I really hope that we getmore.
I would love a daddy.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I would love a daddy flashback.
Who would play the dad?
Who should play the dad?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Who would play the dad.
It depends on how they want togo.
Do you know?
Is his name Tim Reed?
He would be the dad from Sister, Sister, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
That would be interesting, especially when you
play a deadbeat, because he'susually, like you know, kind of
in more refined roles, like youknow, like he was the straight
and sister sister right, but Ionce again, I think it's like
perception versus reality.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I think he would look like that.
It would make them look likethey had, they were such a great
family, but then behind closeddoors yeah, he's a mess
screaming and talking down toher.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I kind of like it.
Yeah, to me that's a goodchoice, okay.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
What do you think would play the dad?
Speaker 2 (22:07):
I feel like everybody that's popping up in my head is
too old to play the dad,because I'm like Danny Glover,
but he's way too, you know.
But that's a flashback to theColor Purple.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Didn't he just pass away?
No, that was the dad from GoodTimes, edward James Olmos.
No, that's not his name.
What's the dad from Good Times?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
name Girl, I don't know, james.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Earl, you know what?
Never mind, I'm not good withnames.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Lawrence Fishburne.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Lawrence Fishburne was not the daddy from Good
Times.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
No, I'm saying as a suggestion.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
You don't think he's too powerful for that role?
He was in Black-ish.
He was in Black-ish, he was thedaddy of most, and when I said
powerful I don't mean like he'stoo big of a star.
I guess.
When I think about LawrenceFishburne, immediately I go to
like what's love got to do withit, Ike Turner and I'm like we
(23:03):
don't need all of that energy,Like that's a bit too much for
me.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
I need to be toned down, and so that's why I'm like
ooh Lawrence Fishburne.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Lawrence Whitaker.
I don't know if he would do TV,but Forrest Whitaker.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I forgot Forrest Whitaker existed.
And Hold on, you know what?
Never mind.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I'm not going to let that intrusive thought out.
I know what it is, but hold itback.
But okay, yeah, that's my vote.
Forest Whitaker is my vote.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Man.
Once again I almost feel likeForest Whitaker is too much for
the part, because like Last Kingof Scotland, like that's a lot
of energy.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
I think he can temper his energy.
I think he's an excellent actor, so like it doesn't matter,
he's going to body whatever roleit is, and he kind of looks
like he could fit into theirfamily too, you know, and so I
guess that's what I meant bylike Laurence Fishburne.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I'm like, yes, they are Forrest Whitaker and
Laurence Fishburne are like goodactors and so I'm like, ooh, if
they have to play an abusiveperson, I'm scared, I don't know
, ike.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Turner.
I can't handle another,honestly, another Laurence
Fishburne.
What am I saying?
I'm like oh no, you know what.
I cannot watch that movie as anadult.
And again, I watched it so manytimes as a child.
Should not have watched that asa child.
I cannot watch that movie as anadult.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I'm going to be real.
At the stage of life that I amin, I cannot really watch a
woman being physically abused orphysically assaulted.
I can't do it.
Physically abused or physicallyassaulted, I can't do it.
I have to move past it, fastforward.
I honestly try to avoid itcompletely if I can.
It's just too much.
(24:52):
It's too much for me.
I feel like I've seen enoughwith innovation and trauma and
abuse.
Once again, the movies we werewatching as kids, like the Color
Purple, the Women of Brewster'sPlace why were we watching
these movies as children?
Are the movies great?
They are.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I don't think our parents tippered what we watched
.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I don't think they really thought psychologically
all the way through.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Because, if you think about it, 80s, 90s yeah, there
was no consideration for what wedo in Psychologically Shattered
no no, but like a lot of thosemovies, yeah, I'm like okay, I
enjoyed them and I watched themover and, over and over again
and to the point where most ofthem, I know them line by line.
And now I cannot watch them asan adult, like I can't even
(25:43):
watch the remake of Color Purple.
I can't.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
I have tried, I have tried and I'm like, even with
you singing the fact that it'slike a remake of the Broadway
play and not of the originalmovie.
I still can't do it and I don'tknow why.
That hurts me a little bitbecause that movie was such a
huge part of my childhood huge,huge part of my childhood, but
Huge, huge part of my childhood.
But I, just I am anti-Blacktrauma.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, and I don't completely get rid of it.
Like I do have hard, I haveissues with essay scenes.
I can't do essay scenes anymore, but like I don't completely
get, I just make sure I'm in agood enough mood to watch some
stuff like that.
But it just doesn't seem to likeI've caught it and I think you
know if I watch it I'm gonnahave to watch it with people
(26:28):
like you know in my in my areais a group of people get
together and watch movies andstuff like that, like we'll have
a movie night, um, so I'mseeing, let me see if I can.
Yeah, like you know, can wejust have like a little
impromptu one.
I need some other people towatch this with.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
It was hard, that Thanksgiving scene.
It was really hard to watchbecause you really understand,
start to understand why shereally doesn't love herself.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
That Thanksgiving episode yeah, that's another one
that was emotionally hard towatch.
To just watch her just bebelittled and no matter what she
does, it's never going to begood enough.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
And I just want to be like girl just stop trying with
these things you know, like, so, like now, going no contact is
a really, really popular thing,like it's, it's, it's very like
normalized to like put in thosehard, firm boundaries.
But if you think about it backin the day, there were always
like people in the family thatwould just disappear and they
(27:32):
said, oh well, they think thatthey're too good and they don't
come around anymore.
And I look like, oh no, theywere the no contact pioneers.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
They were, they were.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
You don't understand, like oh no, that they were.
You don't understand.
That person was brave.
They weren't selfish, theyweren't sadistic, they were
brave.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
When you find out that story as to why they
stopped, then you're like ohdang.
Right you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
I don't understand.
I'm like girl.
I would have went no contact.
She already doesn't haveanybody.
That's true.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
that makes sense it's complicated by the financial
needs.
She does have a financial need.
She does.
So.
To completely go non-contact,especially with a brother, would
be hard because, like she still, you know, she doesn't have
herself together financially butdo you think if she had herself
together financially she wouldgo no contact?
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I don't think she would.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Only if it was coupled with therapy.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Because at this point she is so broken on the inside
that the crumbs, the hint oflove and connection would be
enough for her, because she justdoesn't have it.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
She still wants to prove herself to them.
She still wants to try to proveherself to them.
So, yes, I don't think she's atthat point, but I hope she gets
there.
Okay, but I do.
Let's talk about Rory, becausewe haven't talked about her
relationship.
Oh, okay, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
so Rory at the start of the show is her best friend,
and so let's give a backgroundon Rory.
Rory's father is is he thepresident of the airport?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
What is?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
he the CEO of the airport.
He's over JFK.
He works at the airport like ata newsstand Rory does, to
fulfill the requirements of histrust fund.
He's 35.
He's the same age as Melissa.
He is homosexual and he kind ofhas like this attitude of you
(29:30):
know, I'm free and I want tojust party.
I don't want to do anythingserious.
He's not serious about hiscareer.
He's not serious about you knowhis love life and he does not
have a good relationship withhis father.
He's also adopted.
He's Asian.
He's not serious about you knowhis love life and he does not
have a good relationship withhis father.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
He's also adopted.
He's Asian.
He's adopted by white Jewishparents.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yes, so the first episode it starts out like it
seems like, oh my God, these arebest friends, they are two peas
in a pod and the show starts onher birthday, right, so the day
of her birthday they'resupposed to go out like eat and
karaoke, like they have.
(30:10):
It sounds like they have awhole weekend plan, like
watching the office or takingedibles, like they have a whole
weekend plan.
Um, but what it turns out isthat, uh, rory ends up meeting a
guy who they've been likeseeing in the airport and kind
of lusting over, and they alllike, oh my God, he's so perfect
.
And Rory actually meets him andgets an opportunity to go out
(30:33):
on a date with him or kind oflike a hookup with him.
And so he lies to Melissa andsays, hey, I can't hang out with
you for your birthday, I haveto go to a fundraiser.
And you know that leads to theevents that lead to her actually
getting hurt and ended up inthe hospital actually dying
(30:54):
Because she's by herself on herbirthday putting together
furniture.
That wasn't even the plan ofwhat she was supposed to do.
Buying the furniture was neverthe plan, it was just her making
her feel putting togetherfurniture.
That wasn't even the plan ofwhat she was supposed to do.
Buying the furniture was neverthe plan, it was just her making
her feel you know good aboutbeing alone on her birthday.
So that's kind of Rory'sbackground.
And so Rory and the airport guy, like their hookup, actually
(31:16):
turns into a relationship and Ifeel like that is why he
switches up on Melissa.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Well, how do you feel he switches up?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
when you say switches up, Okay, so Rory and Melissa
they end up getting into areally, really bad fight.
He is the person that she callswhen she's in the hospital.
He does not answer her and sowhen they get back to work on
Monday, she's not answering hisphone calls.
(31:47):
She's upset with him becauseshe knows in her heart of hearts
, when he gave that excuse, thathe was like lying about.
He apparently does that quiteoften.
So they end up getting into afight because she feels like
he's not there for her and hefeels like she wants too much
(32:08):
from him.
Basically.
But the my the way, the reasonwhy I say that he switches up,
is because they had arelationship dynamic that they
both agreed upon.
Was it necessarily healthy?
No, it was not.
But they both agreed to thatrelationship dynamic.
(32:30):
And then you come to find outthat, honestly, he was not
really fulfilling the dynamicthe way that he was supposed to
be.
But also I feel like all of asudden now like oh, he has the
potential for a boyfriend Now hejust wants to be free and do
whatever and he doesn't want herto rely on him in the way that
(32:55):
they also, that they relied oneach other.
And I also feel like he'sselfish and inappropriate.
And I'll tell you why I feellike that after I give you the
opportunity to talk, ok so Ithink the reason why it's not
even that I disagree necessarilywith what you said.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
I think the reason why I see it differently is
because this dynamic that theyset up that they both set up was
toxic and unhealthy from thebeginning.
So I see that this was alwayson a crash course from the
beginning.
I'm like this is going to crash.
This is unsustainable becauseit is too much to have all your
emotional needs met by oneperson and that's the dynamic
that they set up with each other.
(33:35):
And I think they both set it upwhen they were both in a really
broken place.
So it makes sense to me thatonce either person starts to
come out of that broken place,that's going to fall apart,
because it was unrealistic inthe beginning.
I do think at some point that hefulfilled a lot of that and I
feel like it's too much.
It's too heavy because, whilehe did agree to it you know what
(33:58):
I mean he still it's still.
Melissa needs a lot, she needsa lot and she calls on him.
I think too much.
And I think she calls on him intimes where it's inappropriate
for her to call on him.
He needs her emotionally.
She needs him emotionally,financially you know what I mean
socially Whereas she does nothave anyone but him.
(34:23):
He does have outside friendsfrom her.
He does have another sociallife, so he is not relying on
her.
I don't feel like he's relyingon her as heavily as she's
relying on him is it a sociallife or is it hookups?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
whatever the reason why I say that is because she's
like oh, you're ditching me forsex, which you shouldn't.
Here's the thing.
I personally, I think Rory isthe worst.
But the reason why I think Roryis the worst is because he,
(34:58):
once he made an agreement thatthey were going to be each
other's everything with theexception of sex, and when he,
when he felt differently, hedidn't tell her.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
And again he's wrong for that.
They have issues withcommunication, Do I think he's?
I don't think he's irredeemable, you know.
I think that they've beenneeded to have a conversation
because this is unhealthy.
I think he's been feeling thatfor a while before Bicostal Day.
This has started to, becausewhy?
Because I think that's why hisbehavior started changing,
Because it started changingbefore Bicostal Day, Because she
(35:33):
was this is not the first timehe's ditched her for dick and
then and before, where they werealways together, I think they
spent a lot of time together.
There was a switch that wasslowly progressing, because I
think the weight of beingsomeone's everything was getting
to be too much for him andagain, he never communicated
that.
But neither of these people.
We're not talking aboutemotionally healthy people.
We're talking about twoemotionally unhealthy people.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
I think my issue is is he says stuff to her like I
don't want you to replace mewith lamar and somebody else.
I don't remember the otherperson he named he's like don't
don't, yeah, don't replace mewith tamika and lamar.
But then, at the same time,you're saying I can't breathe
because you want me to be yourman.
(36:16):
You know you want me to be youreverything.
When they laid in the bedtogether and she was explaining
to him all of the reasons whyshe was going to break up with
Alex, and he didn't say to heryou know what?
I think that you guys can workit out.
You know, you just need to loveyourself more and understand
why you're so amazing.
He would want to be with you.
He says leave him alone.
(36:38):
You shouldn't.
You shouldn't seek out arelationship.
Just have sex with randompeople and let me be everything
else to you.
Let me be your emotional person, you'll be my emotional person.
We'll be everything to eachother but sex.
And then, all of a sudden,you're screaming in my face I'm
not your man.
Well, that's not what you said.
They never should have made theagreement.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I agree, because the agreement was crazy to begin
with it was unrealistic and oncethe weight of that was getting
to be too much for him, yes, heshould have said something.
There's a lot of things thatneed to be said, like when he
keeps canceling, she needs tocall him out for that.
There's a lot of things thatneed to be said.
But I think you're dealing withtwo very emotionally unhealthy
(37:21):
people in a friendship andthere's a lot of things that
they need to talk through thatthey don't that I don't think
that either of them have thecapacity or know how to talk
through.
But I think if they can getsome good boundaries in place, I
think that this can be ahealthy friendship.
I just don't think that it isright now.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
There's also an imbalance of power in the
relationship because he's atrust fund kid and she is dead
broke.
But then he would tell her hey,I don't feel comfortable with
you doing this managementprogram, because it makes me
feel bad when you know she'salready financially strapped and
you say that you don't want herto be reliant on you.
(38:01):
But then you would also tell heroh, you know what, don't pursue
something that would likefinancially help you, and to me
that is the worst thing he didlike to it of all the stuff that
he did.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Telling her not to be a part of that management
program because he has the issuewith his dad is the worst thing
that he did and it's out oftouch.
But he's out.
He's out of touch because he'srich and he's never had to
really deal with the stuff thatshe's dealing with.
He does not have anunderstanding for that.
I'm not saying that to excusehim, I just, you know, just to
kind of explain.
But to me that is the worstthing he did Because her not
doing that management plan isnot going to improve your
(38:34):
relationship with your daddy atall.
That just is holding, holdingher back, Like.
To me that's worse than all theother stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
He also, when he found out that she was in the
hospital, he went around theairport and got her gifts, which
means that not only did youditch her on her birthday, you
didn't get her a gift and thendecided to like, throw something
together quick.
I'm just like you should shutup and get it.
She doesn't think that shedeserves anything.
(39:02):
But if that were you, you wouldbe pissed yeah, because a
lotion wash like no.
Thank you that he got for free.
Once again, once again, trustfund kid.
You ditched me on my birthdayand then I didn't didn't like
respond when I was in thehospital.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
How's he supposed to know that she's in the hospital?
You don't like.
It's like if you're genuinelybusy sometimes you don't, you
don't, you don't respond.
I don't know why you're callingme.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, and if you can't answer the phone, you are
going to immediately text me.
Hey, I got this and this youwould.
He's a terrible selfish person.
I am happy that he found arelationship because I think he
(39:53):
deserves to be loved and it'svery obvious because he's made
comments about his self-esteemand how he would never be able
to get a man that's attractiveor no one would want to be in a
relationship with him, which iswhy I think he developed that
you know just hook up culture,minded.
I'm glad that he found arelationship.
It seems like that guy isreally good for him.
(40:15):
Yeah, but it was like, oh, assoon as he got a role in a
relationship, I feel like heimmediately started to look down
on melissa, like, and everybodyhe already he knows that's his,
he knows how people treat her,especially like her family
members and stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
And I feel like he started doing the same thing as
soon as he got in thatrelationship and that's why I'm
like oh, he switched up, likethe way he was yelling at her, I
think it was building and Ithink if he had had
conversations about, like youknow hey, I know we said this,
but this is getting to be toomuch, I think.
What I see is, I think it wasslowly building and then it
exploded.
And it exploded because, again,you don't know how to
communicate and you don't knowhow to, you know, change rules
(40:55):
that you know we all set updynamics and then that changed.
Like you know what I mean, likewe've been friends for almost
30 years, dynamics have changedand they do change as we
continue to grow, and but Idon't think most people know how
to have those conversations andhow to do those, and that's it.
And so that it builds up to thepoint where he explodes.
And I just feel like I'm notsaying that that's right or OK.
(41:16):
I'm saying I see that a lotwith people like you know, if
you don't know how tocommunicate your feelings, now
I'm mad about everything and I'mletting you have it for stuff
10 years ago that I should havesaid to you 10 years ago 10
years ago.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
The thing about it is is like you feel like she's the
worst person in the worldbecause she did the management
class after you asked her not to.
But then, when she asked you toco-sign not pay to co-sign on a
loan, you're like why would youdo that?
Why would you ask me?
Well, because you are a trustfund kid and, for whatever
reason, this loan means too muchto me.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
But you're like I feel like she was wrong.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
It was a bit much, I wouldn't do it either.
But once again, if me asking toco-sign on that loan was too
much a bridge too far, youasking me not to take that
management class was a bridgetoo far.
And then he was devastatinglyupset with her when he found out
(42:15):
she did it anyway Afterrefusing to do the loan.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
I think that her asking for anybody to co-sign on
$30,000 is crazy, I think thatis crazy work.
I don't care that he's rich.
That's a lot to ask of yourfriend.
It wouldn't work.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I don't care that he's rich.
That's a lot to ask of yourfriend.
It wouldn't be.
It's not, I wouldn't do iteither, but I feel like if he is
asking her to put her life onhold, To me that's the worst
thing that he did, the way heresponded about that.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
And again, it's equal .
It's not women, not equally,but it still is unrealistic as
well.
It's unrealistic to say, hey,not to advance your career
because my father recommendedyou and I'm kind of jealous.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I see it is the same.
I see, like, if, if she, if hefeels like she went a bridge too
far asking him to co-sign onthe loan, then you were too.
You were too far, asking toofar, but he still felt like she
was so wrong, you know, evenafter.
And I'm like, well, how is itthat there's limits on what
(43:18):
you're willing to do for her,but it doesn't seem to be limits
on what you expect her to dofor you?
That's why I don't, I don'tthink that their friendship is
necessary.
I don't think that theirfriendship is necessary.
I don't because, honestly,nobody has it necessary.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
I think it's redeemable.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
I want to say this her life started getting
exponentially better once shestopped being friends with Rory,
because she truly had to startfrom the ground up rebuilding
friendships and finding newfriends, because she didn't have
him as a security blanketanymore.
So there were people shealready were friends with, but
(43:58):
she did not really see how muchthey wanted.
Right, she couldn't see itanymore because she only was
like it was like Rory Rory, rory, rory, rory.
And then she started meetingnew people and all of a sudden
she went from having no one tohaving a beautiful community,
right?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
But I guess I see, and I think that's beautiful you
know that's one of my favoriteparts of the story is watching
her build community, because Ilove that for people in general
and I love that these people,that she didn't realize how many
people she had around her thatcared about her, and I love that
part.
I'm not saying that it has tohappen, but I'm saying if you
all can have some honestconversations with each other
(44:39):
and put in some seriousboundaries, I think that
friendship is redeemable.
Does she have to have thatfriendship?
No, she can be fine without himas well.
I just don't think that it's.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
I think I see they both participate in this toxic
cycle with each other and bothof them need to make changes in
general and to make theirfriendship work you know, like,
(45:13):
like, when she said that she wasgonna fly, like every like
everybody like really ralliedaround her and he was the only
one other than patty who is her,her biggest hater.
We don't let's take patty outof the equation, because patty
is because they're not friendsand she's not part of that she's
notshe's not her people, she's not
her tribe everybody else likereally, really poured, poured
(45:36):
into her and this is the thing.
It wasn't like she was all of asudden using people because she
was opening up more, she wasconnecting with people, she was
building herself.
It wasn't like everybodyhelping her.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
She was part of a community, you know that's also
a change that she needed to makebecause she has some user
tendencies as well.
So, building this new communitywhere she is a reciprocal part
you know what I mean when shegives to people, she pours into
people and they pour into her.
(46:11):
That is a character growth thatneeded to happen for her.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
A thousand percent.
But I think it would not havehappened the way that it
happened if she still had thefriendship with Rory, because
with Rory Rory wants all of herattention when he wants it and
when he doesn't want it he wantsher to be left alone, and I
just think it's toxic.
Their friendship was toxic, Idon't disagree that it's toxic.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
I just think they can work through it.
Don't have to.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
She could choose not to, but, like I think, in his
relationship, because throughoutthe movie, like that's the only
thing you see is him building.
You don't really see him likebuilding other other
relationships with other people.
It's just that.
And so I'm like you know what?
Okay, he's one of those guys.
(47:00):
Now he has a boyfriend, hedon't need nobody else, okay,
cool.
Well, you and your boyfriend,y'all seem really happy.
Maybe he's healing some of yourdaddy issues.
Y'all go over there.
You know, really happy.
Maybe he's healing some of yourdaddy issues.
Y'all go over there.
So, okay, do you want to talk?
So we've talked about toxicfriendships and we talked about
her good friendships.
(47:21):
Were you surprised that shereally started to blossom when
she got like some goodgirlfriends around her?
Speaker 2 (47:32):
of course, not, of course not women.
Like my female friendships havealways been like some of the
most important relationships andthe most healing community
oriented, like just all aroundgood.
So, no, I'm not at allsurprised.
I was so excited when she madethat connection with Tamika and
(47:52):
the bartender.
Like I love the three of them,I love their dynamic, I love
their relationship that I seegrowing and blossoming.
It's crazy to me that, like it'slike these people were so close
to you all along but now youdiscover that you know no, these
are really good people Because,like before, that Tamika is
just the girl you hear on theother side of the wall that you
create a narrative about, butthen, when you get to know her,
(48:13):
you all actually are really good, compatible friends.
And then even the people at theairport her getting closer to
Kaya, the lady who sells thelotion washes, who I feel like
is again a silent supporter,even though you guys weren't
that close.
She's rooting for you Becauseshe calls, calls, roy out a few
(48:36):
times about his crap.
Um, who else is it in theairport?
I feel like there's somebodyelse.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
we're talking about the female relationships.
Okay, we'll say that my onlyquestion.
So my new question is why didshe not have female friends
before that that were close?
I don't know that is sointeresting because she,
objectively, is a very likableperson.
She's well like they don't likeher in her family, but her
(49:00):
sister-in-law actually likes her, Like she's a girl's girl.
You know what I'm saying?
Like she's very personable.
It seems like she really makesfriends easy.
I'm like where were yourgirlfriends at before this?
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah, I don't know, and I mean I guess some people
just don't have them, which iscrazy.
It's a crazy thing for me tothink about, like having some
relationships that have lastedso long in my life, but I am
very glad that she did find themand I love it, I.
I love the worships for herthere is, like that, female
(49:34):
support it's just different itdoes it.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
It just it hits different.
And I really feel like that waslike the game changer because,
like, they immediately startednot only pouring into her but
holding her accountable, likewhen she said, oh, I don't have
anything to wear.
And they're like oh, we'll comeover, we'll figure out, we'll
put something together.
And she's like, oh, maybetomorrow.
They're like well, are yousaying no because you want to go
(50:01):
and do something else, or youjust saying no because that's
what you do?
And she's like okay, let's godo the fashion show?
Speaker 2 (50:09):
well, they, like they immediately started like
holding her accountable to thethings that she said she wanted
yeah, agree, it was even even umkaya, the airport, encouraging
her to fly and being part ofthat, that flight simulation,
and then talking her, makingsure she got the luggage so that
(50:29):
she could go.
You know, because I think thefunny thing is, I think some of
the things that she sellsbecause that's Kaya's business,
she owns that kiosk she couldhave sold her.
I didn't understand that sheowns that.
She could have sold thatluggage to her because she sells
luggage, but no, she's like Iknow you can't afford it.
(50:50):
This is the way you go.
Get it for free.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Do you know?
The entire time I thought shewas like working at a kiosk but
trying to sell her own stuff onthe side.
No, I think that's hers.
That is amazing.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
There's a little scene where she leaves oh, where
, well, like she leaves, oh, shesaid, oh, no, okay, so she's
trying to sell the lotion washesto that lady and she was like
you're supporting a blackwoman's me-owned business.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah, I did hear her say that and I thought she was
specifically talking about thelotion washes and then, later on
, like when the guy's like, well, can you get off.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
He essentially asked her can you get off work to go?
And she was like who gonna stopme?
Because she, you know what Imean, it's her business.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Yeah, I heard her say who gonna stop me?
That's why she was just beingsassy.
But I love her even moreknowing now that that's actually
her own business.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
And again, like I said, like she could have sold
her luggage but she was like no,I know enough to know you can't
.
This is how you get it for free.
Cause like it's aboutsupporting you, not just you
know.
Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Yes, there were like beautiful examples of um, female
friendships and female supportand why, like those
relationships are so important.
But one of the things that wegot to see in this show, which I
don't feel like often getsportrayed, are friendships
between, like women and men thatare healthy and fun and not
(52:24):
crossing any line.
Now, I'm not including terrencein this conversation.
I think that Terrence belongsin a different conversation.
But the two guys who work onthe tarmac with Terrence they
are so funny, they have afriendship together.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
I love their friendship.
I do too.
You know, seeing healthy malefriendships on screen is
something that does not happenoften.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
But like they are great friends to her, like you
see them interacting with Kaya,like you just see, like they are
just great guys and greatfriends, like they they they
tease her, but they alsoencourage her and they show that
they care about her like I.
I love that I love that because,once again, that's not always
(53:14):
something that we see, you knowand I, she's getting all of like
.
She went from this very, verytoxic friendship with rory to
all of a sudden opening herselfup and she has so many people
who, like you said, were rightthere in her face, who actually
care about her.
But the only difference nothingchanged, except she allowed
(53:37):
herself to receive it, becausethey were always doing this.
They were always speaking toher, interacting with her,
loving on her, encouraging her,but she never received it before
agreed she let them into herlife a lot more too, I think,
during this process with herloving on her encouraging her,
but she never received it before.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
Agreed you, let them into her life a lot more too?
I think during this process.
Speaker 1 (53:59):
Yes, the show is a great example about the power of
friendship and the power ofcommunity.
You have to ask yourself if I'mstuck and I'm not able to grow,
I'm not able to move forward,I'm not able to reach my goals.
Maybe I need to look around andsee who's around me and maybe I
(54:21):
need to expand my community.
Maybe I need to decrease mycommunity and then push some
people out.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Or take a break, take a healthy break.
But one of the things is I likethat point because, like so
much of her issue is that shecan't see a way out and so these
people being able to give herglimpses, and because of how
they see her versus how she seesherself, she gets to start to
see her way out because they cansee her being in the management
program, they can see her ontrips, planes and flights.
(54:50):
Girl, when I tell you thatflight simulator that they set
up for her in order to help hergirl, I almost, almost tears.
I was like, okay, I'm not goingto go out there like a punk,
but I almost did.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
It was beautiful, because the effort, the thought
and just the way they loved thethought and just the way they
loved the way that they allloved on her, you can very
easily tell she's neverexperienced anything like that.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
No, no, it feels like family, you know, in a way that
she's, like you said, neverexperienced.
That is what family is, that'swhat people, who, who care about
you, that's what that feelslike.
And to even to be able to openher up to the point where she
could even.
I don't think romantic love isnot the point of the goal, um,
(55:40):
and it doesn't have to be, butthe way she could even open
herself up enough to think, oh,maybe I could have romantic love
is because now she's like, oh,this is what love is supposed to
feel like.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Right, absolutely, absolutely.
They people can love you rightwhere you are, right where you
are, and so, yeah, that wasbeautiful, it was, that was.
That was very, a very touching.
Speaker 2 (56:03):
I love the way that was done but I love that about
shows in general, like when theyreally show people build a
community and come together andhow that looks.
I love those depictions of it.
I love seeing thoserelationships form and how they
kind of get their little theirthing with each other.
Yeah, okay.
So the two guys in the airport,sean and Deshawn, they're like
brothers, they are.
(56:23):
They're like brotherly figuresin the best way though, because
they tease you, you, but theylove you.
They're gonna push you, butthey're not gonna let you quit
on yourself, you know and sothat, juxtaposed to her actual
brother, is jarring.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
You know her actual blood brother, who?
Here's the thing.
It's not that he does not lovehis sister, he does love her,
but it is wrapped up in so muchtoxicity from all of the family
baggage.
True, they have little moments.
(57:02):
They do have little momentswhen they connect.
You know and you're like this ishow their relationship is
supposed to be, but it neverstays that way long and here's
the thing I'm going to say thisit's not all the brother,
because she has a lot ofproblems and in some ways he's
correct.
At 35 she should have herselftogether.
(57:22):
So it's not a one-sided thingwhere she's just a victim and
her brother is a terrorizer.
He has her terrorizer, he hasher issues and he has his issues
and it leads to a terriblerelationship.
But I agree that the guys onthe tarmac show her how
beautiful a brother sisterrelationship could be.
(57:45):
They do.
That was very beautiful.
It was very beautiful.
I really enjoyed that.
We started off.
You know, talking about thetoxic relationship stuff is kind
of hard, but I feel like weended on a beautiful note.
Sometimes you have to take thebitter to appreciate the sweet.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
I like that.
It sounds beautiful.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
So, guys, thank you so much for joining us with this
episode.
I'm really, really lookingforward to our next episode.
Please join us.
It'll be our final episode onhow to die alone.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
See you next time.
Hi guys, welcome back On today's episode.
We're going to be discussinghow to die alone.
I'm your host, nick.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Jess.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm really excited about today's episode because
we're going to be talking aboutrelationships, and I don't know
if I've had so many toxicrelationships.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Say that again.
You don't know if you've had somany toxic relationships.
I'm going to say it again youdon't know if you've had so many
toxic relationships I've neverseen a show that has had so many
toxic relationships crammed in.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's mind-blowing yeah.
So in the first episode we kindof talked about Melissa's
self-esteem problems, how shedoesn't feel like she's worthy
of love, and so my firstquestion would be how does
somebody get that way?
And then my answer would be hermother.
(00:54):
Yeah her mama, her mama also,but I feel like he learned that
from the mom.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
So, yeah, definitely.
Her family of origin from themom.
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
So, yeah, definitely her familyof origin, her mom, who seems
like she has spent her entirelife, melissa's entire life,
breaking her self-esteem down tobe as low as it is, because if
she has always talked to herlike she talks to her as an
adult, I'm sure hearing thosekind of things, as a child has
probably been, was probablyreally hard.
And then she set up thisdynamic because I really think
(01:24):
the brother and her relationshipand why a big the mom is the
reason why it's so toxic and shereally kind of plays a big role
in that dysfunction.
And then, on top of that,there's something going on with
the father that they're notclear about.
So we know the father is dead,the brother has a different
(01:44):
opinion of the father, butMelissa also says at some point
like you got his good years.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So making it seem like there was some kind of
change, you know, by the timeshe came along to, where he was
not as good or present as father, but it's not clear that like
was he there and just a badperson Did he leave.
You know, we just know he diedwhen I think I was about 14.
The brother was about 14.
Not Alex, alex, I'm sorry.
(02:11):
Alex is the boyfriend.
What's the brother's name?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Brian.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Brian when Brian was about 14.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Is that right, though Is his name Brian.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
That feels right.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
It does feel right, but I've been wrong before.
Names is not your strong point,it's not, and I lean into it.
So that what she said about thefather when she said, oh, you
got his good years For me, hewas just like the first man who
(02:44):
did, she say, didn't want me,and I'm like yikes, and so I
always I have a ton of questions, a ton of threads, I guess, to
pull.
So the mom made a comment to herbrother about how the father
(03:06):
was not a good man.
Did she explain exactly in whatway she felt like he wasn't a
good man?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
No, that's what I'm saying.
Everybody kind of alludes tothe fact that there was
something wrong, something goingon with the father, but they
never said specifically what itwas.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
I mean definitely.
I think there's alcoholism,because she was saying that he
was a drunk.
I didn't miss that.
I thought she said when she.
I thought she said you got thebest of him.
By the time I came along he wasdrunk.
And then she made the commentabout he was the first man.
Maybe I made that up.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I missed that part completely.
I don't remember that.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I don't know, maybe I just was taking that.
He was an alcoholic, I don'tknow where.
I got that.
From now I'll be honest and saysometimes I get feelings from
things and they're not true.
But now I have to go back andwatch the scene again because I
thought she made reference tohim being drunk.
I think so, brother is Brian.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Brother's name is Brian.
I think so.
Brother's name is Brian.
Brother's name is Brian.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I was right, so you have.
I wonder if part of the momtreating the daughter badly has
to do with the dad.
And I say that is because if,according to what Melissaissa
said, the father was betterbefore she came along.
(04:30):
You know, like sometimes, likeyou have another child and then
things go south and the parentwill take it out on that child
as if it was the child's fault.
I wonder if there was some ofthat, like their marriage got
worse after she was born, notnecessarily because of her, but
just because that's how thingsgo sometimes.
Yeah, mom took it out on herand criticized her.
(04:52):
You know, you obviously see,her mom is a boy, mom.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
And that's the thing.
I don't think that that ispossible, but I don't think we
have any evidence of that yet.
What I think is more clear andpresent is that the mom has an
issue with women.
You know what I mean.
She has a very kind of it seemslike old school understanding
of women and men and what men'srole are, because I think she
probably again alludes to, notdirectly states, but she kind of
(05:19):
put him in the place of thelike he kind of made her son her
husband.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Absolutely.
Even the way she talks to himabout how he needs to tighten it
up, it's you know he has to bethe leader of the family.
No, he doesn't want to, but hehas to.
It's his job.
No, it was very much givinglike, oh, you are my new husband
energy which, when women dothat, it bothers me so much.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
And also even though I know there's racial elements
too at play, but that's also whyshe wasn't going to like his
wife regardless.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Oh, she wasn't, she wasn't going to like his wife,
regardless, he's married to awhite woman in the story and I
think because he's married to awhite woman, it makes it easier
for her to say, oh, I don't likeher.
But if he was married to ablack woman, she was not going
to like him either.
It would just be, she wouldjust have less of a standing Not
(06:14):
that she has a standing becausehis wife is white, but, you
know, it gives her a little bitof cover to say, oh well, we're
just so different and why didn'the choose someone that looked
like me?
And you know, know, you can sayall those things that don't
matter, because who you're yourchild marries has absolutely
nothing to do with you, and Ithink it's weird to be like, oh,
marry somebody like me, that'screepy that is creepy, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So I think she has a bunch of toxic um stuff about
like male and femalerelationships and dynamics.
Um pushes on melissa, on bothher children, honestly, okay,
the reason why I say this isbecause when her and I'm
assuming that that's her sister,the blonde lady at the
thanksgiving I'm assuming that'sher sister because I think
that's their um when they aretalking to and melissa's trying
(06:58):
to talk about her career, sheand she's like they're very
clearly belittling her.
Um, uh and she's I fell into, Iwent to a management program.
She goes oh, I thought you fellinto a man.
You know what I mean.
Like her, having or not having aboyfriend is the most important
part of their life.
And when women do that, that'susually because you have these
really old school kind of youknow toxic beliefs about men and
(07:18):
women.
And then they're harping on herweight the way that they do,
you Harping on her weight theway that they do.
You know.
Again, that's about what istraditionally attractive and you
being able to appeal to anattractive man.
I think it's more than that.
So I don't think I don't thinkany female that came out of her.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
She was going like I'm going to say this Even if
her and Alex were still togetherbecause Alex is very well put
together, you know he willpresent well to a family.
Because Alex is very well puttogether, you know he will
present well to a family.
If she bought Alex aThanksgiving dinner, her mom
would have still treated herlike crap, probably all up in
Alex's face and but she stillwould have treated her like so.
Even having a man would nothave saved her because her mom
(08:00):
does not like her no, but I'msaying she does not like women.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
You know what I mean.
So I completely agree witheverything you just said.
But again, that's these weird.
Does not like her.
No, but I'm saying she does notlike women.
You know what I mean.
So I completely agree witheverything you just said, but
again.
That's these weird.
Like you could be a woman andstill be misogynist Absolutely.
And so to me, that's why I seeit Like, yeah, no, if she had a
man she would still hate her,but if she had Alex and she was
still plus size, she still wouldbe in on.
You're going to lose that man.
Whatever, it's a vehicle tojust hate on this woman.
(08:29):
If she actually lost weight, itwould be like you're too skinny
, you look sickly.
She has an issue with women.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, and that's really sad.
It's really sad.
A lot of women I've heard themsay that their mom was their
first bully.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Mm.
Hmm, this is a thousand percenttrue in this case.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, it is.
And so she has a toxicrelationship with her, her mom,
and it feeds into a toxicrelationship with her brother,
because she doesn't, you know,she feels like you know, he puts
her down the way that the momdoes.
The mom hits the two of themagainst each other, I feel like,
(09:13):
and then, kind of like, stepsback and then, when things get
too chaotic, I feel like shesteps in and tries to pretend
that she's the referee.
But it's like you started thefight, you absolutely started
the fight.
You steadily talk about howwonderful he is and how terrible
she is, and then, when they goat it, then you're like, oh, you
(09:33):
can't, don't be like that,don't do that, you know.
Yeah, her brother, I'm tryingto, he triggered you were
talking about triggering.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
He triggered the hell out of me.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I want to be.
I have some empathy for thebrother in some respects.
Those respects are I'm going tosay this his father dying was
very traumatic on him and it'svery obvious he did not get the
help that he needed and he stillis not over that no, he's not
(10:13):
his mom is inappropriate withhim.
She's made him her husband youknow what I mean, and it made
him feel like he's responsiblefor everybody in the family, and
I don't think that that's fair,and I don't think if he was a
(10:34):
brother, if he was a girl or boy, I don't think that would have
been fair.
No, now I'm gonna, I, but the.
What is funny to me, though, isthe position that he is in in
his family is typically theposition that you see the oldest
daughter in.
It is In.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Black families.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I will say yes, I'm sorry, in Black families the
position of being the caretakerand the keeper and the fixer and
the saver in black families istypically the oldest daughter
and it doesn't create issues.
It does create issues it like,but I feel like we have been
(11:18):
trained as black women to bearit in silence.
We're not allowed to use thatas an excuse, and I think he
uses that position that he'sbeen put in in his family as an
excuse to be out of control andto be mean and to be aggressive
(11:40):
and to be rude.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
So, whereas I have empathy for him, it only can go
so far, because I'm just likeyou are.
At this point, I feel likeyou're college educated.
You keep talking about how youhave a financial success.
Why are you not in therapy?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Well, I also.
While that is true, the motherhas put him in this position.
She has definitely made him herhusband and he does help his
mother and his sister.
At times, I still think heoverplays his hand.
At the end of the day, like themost of the stuff that you are
complaining about is regulareveryday stuff.
That is also the result of yourchoices.
(12:22):
You are married.
It doesn't seem like your wifeworks.
That's the decision that y'allmade together.
So then the financial piece ofit being on you again, that's
the decision that y'all madetogether.
You are choosing not to shareyour struggles with your wife.
You know, even though she'sthere every five seconds, asking
you what's wrong, trying tocoddle you, you know you still
(12:43):
won't open up and share with herand spread that.
And then you keep sayingbecause you guys are my
dependents, you know he saidthat line and I'm like, so you
can't have a conversation withthem?
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Right.
That is something you made up,sir, I think his he's not
willing to stand up to his mom.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
He's not.
But you don't have to stand up.
Your wife could be yourconfidant.
What the heck did you marry herfor?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
and she's more than willing to be that confidant she
is and cause she sees himbreaking down and she's trying
to do stuff like giving himbreathing exercises and she,
honestly, is very yeah, she istrying to help, she's very
understanding and she is begginghim to open up, but he has his
mom in his head who told him tohis face when he got aggressive
(13:33):
and she's like it doesn't matterhow much you have on you, close
your mouth, don't let you.
Don't let it out.
That's a good point.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
That is, but also like, and I think overall his
responsibilities are so basic,you know what I mean Like you
are a married man with astay-at-home wife.
Big whoop, that's most, notmost, but that's a lot of
married men.
Why are you acting like you arelifting mountains on your
(14:03):
shoulders?
You decided to have a wife.
That doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Right and also taking care, because I can tell that
he does not take care of his momcompletely financially.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
No, he doesn't.
He doesn't take care of eitherof them, but he acts like he
does.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
He does, and I'm like that once again, having older
parents, it is very normal thatyou have to assist them with
different things.
That it is very normal that youhave to assist them with
different things.
That, once again, is verynormal and that's just a part of
being in a family.
As your parents age, they needmore and more.
But what he does not do is hedoes not put in boundaries, no,
(14:38):
and then he complains about them, because even with his sister,
you know, he complains and saysoh, you know what?
What you're on my family planon my phone and you only call me
when you need something.
And like then he like sheoffered to babysit for him and
he's like I would never trustyou.
And which is so interesting tome because when she came over
for thanksgiving, his daughteris like you're my favorite
(15:01):
person, I'm so thankful for you.
Here's a gift.
No one else got a gift from her, you know.
So it's it's very obvious thatshe has a good relationship.
She has a good relationshipwith his wife.
You know, like I think, yoursister is stealing money from us
.
She stole your, she stole yoursocial security card.
She still, like, has a goodrelationship.
So but he.
But that's not when he talks toher, that's not how he speaks to
(15:22):
her that's not how he speaks toher no and so, instead of just
putting boundaries in place andhe could easily say listen, you
know, I have my own family, Ihave a wife, I have kids.
My wife does not work, I'mtaking care of her financially,
I can no longer lend you moneyjust a boundary I need to set in
(15:44):
place.
He doesn't say that, no, hegives her whatever money she's
asking for, when she's asking.
I don't even know how much itis, I don't feel like it's a
whole lot.
I don't either, but you know,hey, I don't know.
But it's very apparent thathe's helped her out financially
in the past.
Instead of just putting aboundary in place by saying, hey
(16:04):
, I can't be your first phonecall because I have a lot going
on in my life, I can't lend youmoney, instead of saying those
things, he will do things forher and then throw them in her
face.
They're going to feel terribleabout it.
I don't like that.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
That's what I don't like.
Instead of saying you got threemonths to get off my family
plan.
You know what I mean.
That's easy.
She got a full-time job Eventhough she doesn't make a lot of
money.
You can afford your cell phonebill.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I also don't understand.
I'm like or pay part of thebill for him, so he will let you
stay on the family plan becauseobviously it's a discount the
more phones are on there.
Why are you not sending himmoney per month so he sees you
as a benefit, being on hisfamily plan instead of a problem
?
And I know you don't even haveto open your mouth.
(16:53):
I know you.
That would be the world's worstthing for you to be on somebody
else's bill.
You know like I.
I know how.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
That's not where I was going to go, even if she was
doing that even if she wasdoing that, he still would
complain that she's on there,because the idea of who she is
and who she and you know to him,like his construction of her in
his mind, I think nothingchanges.
She's a bum, she can't doanything.
So I think even if she wasn't,him money, um, he was still
(17:24):
complaining.
But she's still on my familyplate.
You know what I mean.
That's what he wants.
He wants to be able to complain, he wants to do the woe is me
thing and he wants to do I'm sosuccessful, you're such a bum.
So no, the answer is to get offhis family plate.
And now we're talking about me.
I will never ask you foranything.
I know absolutely I will neverask you for anything.
(17:45):
I know.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Absolutely, I will never.
And so who I am.
I would have gone no contactwith both of them and I know
that's hard because she lovesher niece and nephew and she
even likes his wife.
But I would be permanently nocontact with the mom and I would
be no contact with him for longenough for him to understand
(18:07):
you're not going to talk to meany kind of way.
I'm getting my life together.
I will reach back out when Ifeel like we are on even keel
and we can come together asadults.
I don't need anything from you,you don't need anything from me
, and we can see where we are at.
I think unless he gets some help, though, he's still going to
see her negatively well then, Imean the no contact stands you
(18:30):
know what I'm saying like it canonly work if it's going to work
, but I just don't think thatanybody I don't care who they
are is guaranteed access to youno, but even the wife talked
about, even with the wifeknowing that she stole the
social security number, stillsaid I don't like the way he
talks to you Because it'sabusive.
(18:54):
Let's call it what it is it'sabusive.
And he feels like you know what?
I have so much pressure on me.
To relieve that pressure, I'mgoing to belittle you and be
aggressive to you and I'm like.
That doesn't work like that.
You know what.
You know what.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I'm speculating here, hard speculation, but I wonder
if that's how the dad treatedthe mom and the mom doesn't have
a problem with him, becausethey keep saying the dad is bad.
But I'm not really clear onwhether or not.
I don't think the dad left, butI'm just not sure.
But I'm wondering if the dadbelittled and all this kind of
stuff and made the mom feel bad.
And the mom doesn't have anissue with brian because brian
(19:37):
doesn't treat her that way, butshe's okay with her treating
melissa that way I don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Because in the kitchen she's like oh, you lost
your cool.
You know you're not allowed todo that.
You need to keep it tight andbutton it up.
And then she's like go takethis pot to your sister.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Any, other time he's talking down to her, she has no
problem.
But as soon as Melissa clapsback, she's sneering at her.
She's looking at negativity.
So I don't really think she hasa problem with him talking to
her.
Cash crazy.
She got upset because he losthis temper and started yelling.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yes, okay, I agree with that.
I agree that it was.
She wants him to keep a certainperception.
So, yeah, he can talk crazy toher.
She doesn't want him yellingand screaming because that makes
him look bad, not that it makesMelissa feel bad.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And that's why I'm wondering if that's who the dad
was to her and why he's a badguy.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I don't know.
I would love more information.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, we need more information.
I told you I'm speculating hard.
This does not happen in avacuum.
You know what I mean.
Like these kind of like.
You know this comes fromsomewhere Right, and so the dad
was a bad person because hetreated me like he treated
Melissa, but I don't care howyou treat Melissa, right?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
the dad was a screamer and a yeller, so don't
scream and yell at her.
You can still dog her out, butdon't raise your voice right,
which is wild.
Yeah, I really hope that we getmore.
I would love a daddy.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I would love a daddy flashback.
Who would play the dad?
Who should play the dad?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Who would play the dad.
It depends on how they want togo.
Do you know?
Is his name Tim Reed?
He would be the dad from Sister, Sister, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
That would be interesting, especially when you
play a deadbeat, because he'susually, like you know, kind of
in more refined roles, like youknow, like he was the straight
and sister sister right, but Ionce again, I think it's like
perception versus reality.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I think he would look like that.
It would make them look likethey had, they were such a great
family, but then behind closeddoors yeah, he's a mess
screaming and talking down toher.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I kind of like it.
Yeah, to me that's a goodchoice, okay.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
What do you think would play the dad?
Speaker 2 (22:07):
I feel like everybody that's popping up in my head is
too old to play the dad,because I'm like Danny Glover,
but he's way too, you know.
But that's a flashback to theColor Purple.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Didn't he just pass away?
No, that was the dad from GoodTimes, edward James Olmos.
No, that's not his name.
What's the dad from Good Times?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
name Girl, I don't know, james.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Earl, you know what?
Never mind, I'm not good withnames.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Lawrence Fishburne.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Lawrence Fishburne was not the daddy from Good
Times.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
No, I'm saying as a suggestion.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
You don't think he's too powerful for that role?
He was in Black-ish.
He was in Black-ish, he was thedaddy of most, and when I said
powerful I don't mean like he'stoo big of a star.
I guess.
When I think about LawrenceFishburne, immediately I go to
like what's love got to do withit, Ike Turner and I'm like we
(23:03):
don't need all of that energy,Like that's a bit too much for
me.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
I need to be toned down, and so that's why I'm like
ooh Lawrence Fishburne.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Lawrence Whitaker.
I don't know if he would do TV,but Forrest Whitaker.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I forgot Forrest Whitaker existed.
And Hold on, you know what?
Never mind.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I'm not going to let that intrusive thought out.
I know what it is, but hold itback.
But okay, yeah, that's my vote.
Forest Whitaker is my vote.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Man.
Once again I almost feel likeForest Whitaker is too much for
the part, because like Last Kingof Scotland, like that's a lot
of energy.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
I think he can temper his energy.
I think he's an excellent actor, so like it doesn't matter,
he's going to body whatever roleit is, and he kind of looks
like he could fit into theirfamily too, you know, and so I
guess that's what I meant bylike Laurence Fishburne.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I'm like, yes, they are Forrest Whitaker and
Laurence Fishburne are like goodactors and so I'm like, ooh, if
they have to play an abusiveperson, I'm scared, I don't know
, ike.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Turner.
I can't handle another,honestly, another Laurence
Fishburne.
What am I saying?
I'm like oh no, you know what.
I cannot watch that movie as anadult.
And again, I watched it so manytimes as a child.
Should not have watched that asa child.
I cannot watch that movie as anadult.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I'm going to be real.
At the stage of life that I amin, I cannot really watch a
woman being physically abused orphysically assaulted.
I can't do it.
Physically abused or physicallyassaulted, I can't do it.
I have to move past it, fastforward.
I honestly try to avoid itcompletely if I can.
It's just too much.
(24:52):
It's too much for me.
I feel like I've seen enoughwith innovation and trauma and
abuse.
Once again, the movies we werewatching as kids, like the Color
Purple, the Women of Brewster'sPlace why were we watching
these movies as children?
Are the movies great?
They are.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I don't think our parents tippered what we watched
.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I don't think they really thought psychologically
all the way through.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Because, if you think about it, 80s, 90s yeah, there
was no consideration for what wedo in Psychologically Shattered
no no, but like a lot of thosemovies, yeah, I'm like okay, I
enjoyed them and I watched themover and, over and over again
and to the point where most ofthem, I know them line by line.
And now I cannot watch them asan adult, like I can't even
(25:43):
watch the remake of Color Purple.
I can't.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
I have tried, I have tried and I'm like, even with
you singing the fact that it'slike a remake of the Broadway
play and not of the originalmovie.
I still can't do it and I don'tknow why.
That hurts me a little bitbecause that movie was such a
huge part of my childhood huge,huge part of my childhood, but
Huge, huge part of my childhood.
But I, just I am anti-Blacktrauma.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, and I don't completely get rid of it.
Like I do have hard, I haveissues with essay scenes.
I can't do essay scenes anymore, but like I don't completely
get, I just make sure I'm in agood enough mood to watch some
stuff like that.
But it just doesn't seem to likeI've caught it and I think you
know if I watch it I'm gonnahave to watch it with people
(26:28):
like you know in my in my areais a group of people get
together and watch movies andstuff like that, like we'll have
a movie night, um, so I'mseeing, let me see if I can.
Yeah, like you know, can wejust have like a little
impromptu one.
I need some other people towatch this with.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
It was hard, that Thanksgiving scene.
It was really hard to watchbecause you really understand,
start to understand why shereally doesn't love herself.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
That Thanksgiving episode yeah, that's another one
that was emotionally hard towatch.
To just watch her just bebelittled and no matter what she
does, it's never going to begood enough.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
And I just want to be like girl just stop trying with
these things you know, like, so, like now, going no contact is
a really, really popular thing,like it's, it's, it's very like
normalized to like put in thosehard, firm boundaries.
But if you think about it backin the day, there were always
like people in the family thatwould just disappear and they
(27:32):
said, oh well, they think thatthey're too good and they don't
come around anymore.
And I look like, oh no, theywere the no contact pioneers.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
They were, they were.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
You don't understand, like oh no, that they were.
You don't understand.
That person was brave.
They weren't selfish, theyweren't sadistic, they were
brave.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
When you find out that story as to why they
stopped, then you're like ohdang.
Right you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
I don't understand.
I'm like girl.
I would have went no contact.
She already doesn't haveanybody.
That's true.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
that makes sense it's complicated by the financial
needs.
She does have a financial need.
She does.
So.
To completely go non-contact,especially with a brother, would
be hard because, like she still, you know, she doesn't have
herself together financially butdo you think if she had herself
together financially she wouldgo no contact?
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I don't think she would.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Only if it was coupled with therapy.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Because at this point she is so broken on the inside
that the crumbs, the hint oflove and connection would be
enough for her, because she justdoesn't have it.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
She still wants to prove herself to them.
She still wants to try to proveherself to them.
So, yes, I don't think she's atthat point, but I hope she gets
there.
Okay, but I do.
Let's talk about Rory, becausewe haven't talked about her
relationship.
Oh, okay, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
so Rory at the start of the show is her best friend,
and so let's give a backgroundon Rory.
Rory's father is is he thepresident of the airport?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
What is?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
he the CEO of the airport.
He's over JFK.
He works at the airport like ata newsstand Rory does, to
fulfill the requirements of histrust fund.
He's 35.
He's the same age as Melissa.
He is homosexual and he kind ofhas like this attitude of you
(29:30):
know, I'm free and I want tojust party.
I don't want to do anythingserious.
He's not serious about hiscareer.
He's not serious about you knowhis love life and he does not
have a good relationship withhis father.
He's also adopted.
He's Asian.
He's not serious about you knowhis love life and he does not
have a good relationship withhis father.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
He's also adopted.
He's Asian.
He's adopted by white Jewishparents.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yes, so the first episode it starts out like it
seems like, oh my God, these arebest friends, they are two peas
in a pod and the show starts onher birthday, right, so the day
of her birthday they'resupposed to go out like eat and
karaoke, like they have.
(30:10):
It sounds like they have awhole weekend plan, like
watching the office or takingedibles, like they have a whole
weekend plan.
Um, but what it turns out isthat, uh, rory ends up meeting a
guy who they've been likeseeing in the airport and kind
of lusting over, and they alllike, oh my God, he's so perfect
.
And Rory actually meets him andgets an opportunity to go out
(30:33):
on a date with him or kind oflike a hookup with him.
And so he lies to Melissa andsays, hey, I can't hang out with
you for your birthday, I haveto go to a fundraiser.
And you know that leads to theevents that lead to her actually
getting hurt and ended up inthe hospital actually dying
(30:54):
Because she's by herself on herbirthday putting together
furniture.
That wasn't even the plan ofwhat she was supposed to do.
Buying the furniture was neverthe plan, it was just her making
her feel putting togetherfurniture.
That wasn't even the plan ofwhat she was supposed to do.
Buying the furniture was neverthe plan, it was just her making
her feel you know good aboutbeing alone on her birthday.
So that's kind of Rory'sbackground.
And so Rory and the airport guy, like their hookup, actually
(31:16):
turns into a relationship and Ifeel like that is why he
switches up on Melissa.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Well, how do you feel he switches up?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
when you say switches up, Okay, so Rory and Melissa
they end up getting into areally, really bad fight.
He is the person that she callswhen she's in the hospital.
He does not answer her and sowhen they get back to work on
Monday, she's not answering hisphone calls.
(31:47):
She's upset with him becauseshe knows in her heart of hearts
, when he gave that excuse, thathe was like lying about.
He apparently does that quiteoften.
So they end up getting into afight because she feels like
he's not there for her and hefeels like she wants too much
(32:08):
from him.
Basically.
But the my the way, the reasonwhy I say that he switches up,
is because they had arelationship dynamic that they
both agreed upon.
Was it necessarily healthy?
No, it was not.
But they both agreed to thatrelationship dynamic.
(32:30):
And then you come to find outthat, honestly, he was not
really fulfilling the dynamicthe way that he was supposed to
be.
But also I feel like all of asudden now like oh, he has the
potential for a boyfriend Now hejust wants to be free and do
whatever and he doesn't want herto rely on him in the way that
(32:55):
they also, that they relied oneach other.
And I also feel like he'sselfish and inappropriate.
And I'll tell you why I feellike that after I give you the
opportunity to talk, ok so Ithink the reason why it's not
even that I disagree necessarilywith what you said.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
I think the reason why I see it differently is
because this dynamic that theyset up that they both set up was
toxic and unhealthy from thebeginning.
So I see that this was alwayson a crash course from the
beginning.
I'm like this is going to crash.
This is unsustainable becauseit is too much to have all your
emotional needs met by oneperson and that's the dynamic
that they set up with each other.
(33:35):
And I think they both set it upwhen they were both in a really
broken place.
So it makes sense to me thatonce either person starts to
come out of that broken place,that's going to fall apart,
because it was unrealistic inthe beginning.
I do think at some point that hefulfilled a lot of that and I
feel like it's too much.
It's too heavy because, whilehe did agree to it you know what
(33:58):
I mean he still it's still.
Melissa needs a lot, she needsa lot and she calls on him.
I think too much.
And I think she calls on him intimes where it's inappropriate
for her to call on him.
He needs her emotionally.
She needs him emotionally,financially you know what I mean
socially Whereas she does nothave anyone but him.
(34:23):
He does have outside friendsfrom her.
He does have another sociallife, so he is not relying on
her.
I don't feel like he's relyingon her as heavily as she's
relying on him is it a sociallife or is it hookups?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
whatever the reason why I say that is because she's
like oh, you're ditching me forsex, which you shouldn't.
Here's the thing.
I personally, I think Rory isthe worst.
But the reason why I think Roryis the worst is because he,
(34:58):
once he made an agreement thatthey were going to be each
other's everything with theexception of sex, and when he,
when he felt differently, hedidn't tell her.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
And again he's wrong for that.
They have issues withcommunication, Do I think he's?
I don't think he's irredeemable, you know.
I think that they've beenneeded to have a conversation
because this is unhealthy.
I think he's been feeling thatfor a while before Bicostal Day.
This has started to, becausewhy?
Because I think that's why hisbehavior started changing,
Because it started changingbefore Bicostal Day, Because she
(35:33):
was this is not the first timehe's ditched her for dick and
then and before, where they werealways together, I think they
spent a lot of time together.
There was a switch that wasslowly progressing, because I
think the weight of beingsomeone's everything was getting
to be too much for him andagain, he never communicated
that.
But neither of these people.
We're not talking aboutemotionally healthy people.
We're talking about twoemotionally unhealthy people.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
I think my issue is is he says stuff to her like I
don't want you to replace mewith lamar and somebody else.
I don't remember the otherperson he named he's like don't
don't, yeah, don't replace mewith tamika and lamar.
But then, at the same time,you're saying I can't breathe
because you want me to be yourman.
(36:16):
You know you want me to be youreverything.
When they laid in the bedtogether and she was explaining
to him all of the reasons whyshe was going to break up with
Alex, and he didn't say to heryou know what?
I think that you guys can workit out.
You know, you just need to loveyourself more and understand
why you're so amazing.
He would want to be with you.
He says leave him alone.
(36:38):
You shouldn't.
You shouldn't seek out arelationship.
Just have sex with randompeople and let me be everything
else to you.
Let me be your emotional person, you'll be my emotional person.
We'll be everything to eachother but sex.
And then, all of a sudden,you're screaming in my face I'm
not your man.
Well, that's not what you said.
They never should have made theagreement.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I agree, because the agreement was crazy to begin
with it was unrealistic and oncethe weight of that was getting
to be too much for him, yes, heshould have said something.
There's a lot of things thatneed to be said, like when he
keeps canceling, she needs tocall him out for that.
There's a lot of things thatneed to be said.
But I think you're dealing withtwo very emotionally unhealthy
(37:21):
people in a friendship andthere's a lot of things that
they need to talk through thatthey don't that I don't think
that either of them have thecapacity or know how to talk
through.
But I think if they can getsome good boundaries in place, I
think that this can be ahealthy friendship.
I just don't think that it isright now.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
There's also an imbalance of power in the
relationship because he's atrust fund kid and she is dead
broke.
But then he would tell her hey,I don't feel comfortable with
you doing this managementprogram, because it makes me
feel bad when you know she'salready financially strapped and
you say that you don't want herto be reliant on you.
(38:01):
But then you would also tell heroh, you know what, don't pursue
something that would likefinancially help you, and to me
that is the worst thing he didlike to it of all the stuff that
he did.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Telling her not to be a part of that management
program because he has the issuewith his dad is the worst thing
that he did and it's out oftouch.
But he's out.
He's out of touch because he'srich and he's never had to
really deal with the stuff thatshe's dealing with.
He does not have anunderstanding for that.
I'm not saying that to excusehim, I just, you know, just to
kind of explain.
But to me that is the worstthing he did Because her not
doing that management plan isnot going to improve your
(38:34):
relationship with your daddy atall.
That just is holding, holdingher back, Like.
To me that's worse than all theother stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
He also, when he found out that she was in the
hospital, he went around theairport and got her gifts, which
means that not only did youditch her on her birthday, you
didn't get her a gift and thendecided to like, throw something
together quick.
I'm just like you should shutup and get it.
She doesn't think that shedeserves anything.
(39:02):
But if that were you, you wouldbe pissed yeah, because a
lotion wash like no.
Thank you that he got for free.
Once again, once again, trustfund kid.
You ditched me on my birthdayand then I didn't didn't like
respond when I was in thehospital.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
How's he supposed to know that she's in the hospital?
You don't like.
It's like if you're genuinelybusy sometimes you don't, you
don't, you don't respond.
I don't know why you're callingme.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, and if you can't answer the phone, you are
going to immediately text me.
Hey, I got this and this youwould.
He's a terrible selfish person.
I am happy that he found arelationship because I think he
(39:53):
deserves to be loved and it'svery obvious because he's made
comments about his self-esteemand how he would never be able
to get a man that's attractiveor no one would want to be in a
relationship with him, which iswhy I think he developed that
you know just hook up culture,minded.
I'm glad that he found arelationship.
It seems like that guy isreally good for him.
(40:15):
Yeah, but it was like, oh, assoon as he got a role in a
relationship, I feel like heimmediately started to look down
on melissa, like, and everybodyhe already he knows that's his,
he knows how people treat her,especially like her family
members and stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
And I feel like he started doing the same thing as
soon as he got in thatrelationship and that's why I'm
like oh, he switched up, likethe way he was yelling at her, I
think it was building and Ithink if he had had
conversations about, like youknow hey, I know we said this,
but this is getting to be toomuch, I think.
What I see is, I think it wasslowly building and then it
exploded.
And it exploded because, again,you don't know how to
communicate and you don't knowhow to, you know, change rules
(40:55):
that you know we all set updynamics and then that changed.
Like you know what I mean, likewe've been friends for almost
30 years, dynamics have changedand they do change as we
continue to grow, and but Idon't think most people know how
to have those conversations andhow to do those, and that's it.
And so that it builds up to thepoint where he explodes.
And I just feel like I'm notsaying that that's right or OK.
(41:16):
I'm saying I see that a lotwith people like you know, if
you don't know how tocommunicate your feelings, now
I'm mad about everything and I'mletting you have it for stuff
10 years ago that I should havesaid to you 10 years ago 10
years ago.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
The thing about it is is like you feel like she's the
worst person in the worldbecause she did the management
class after you asked her not to.
But then, when she asked you toco-sign not pay to co-sign on a
loan, you're like why would youdo that?
Why would you ask me?
Well, because you are a trustfund kid and, for whatever
reason, this loan means too muchto me.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
But you're like I feel like she was wrong.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
It was a bit much, I wouldn't do it either.
But once again, if me asking toco-sign on that loan was too
much a bridge too far, youasking me not to take that
management class was a bridgetoo far.
And then he was devastatinglyupset with her when he found out
(42:15):
she did it anyway Afterrefusing to do the loan.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
I think that her asking for anybody to co-sign on
$30,000 is crazy, I think thatis crazy work.
I don't care that he's rich.
That's a lot to ask of yourfriend.
It wouldn't work.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I don't care that he's rich.
That's a lot to ask of yourfriend.
It wouldn't be.
It's not, I wouldn't do iteither, but I feel like if he is
asking her to put her life onhold, To me that's the worst
thing that he did, the way heresponded about that.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
And again, it's equal .
It's not women, not equally,but it still is unrealistic as
well.
It's unrealistic to say, hey,not to advance your career
because my father recommendedyou and I'm kind of jealous.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
I see it is the same.
I see, like, if, if she, if hefeels like she went a bridge too
far asking him to co-sign onthe loan, then you were too.
You were too far, asking toofar, but he still felt like she
was so wrong, you know, evenafter.
And I'm like, well, how is itthat there's limits on what
(43:18):
you're willing to do for her,but it doesn't seem to be limits
on what you expect her to dofor you?
That's why I don't, I don'tthink that their friendship is
necessary.
I don't think that theirfriendship is necessary.
I don't because, honestly,nobody has it necessary.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
I think it's redeemable.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
I want to say this her life started getting
exponentially better once shestopped being friends with Rory,
because she truly had to startfrom the ground up rebuilding
friendships and finding newfriends, because she didn't have
him as a security blanketanymore.
So there were people shealready were friends with, but
(43:58):
she did not really see how muchthey wanted.
Right, she couldn't see itanymore because she only was
like it was like Rory Rory, rory, rory, rory.
And then she started meetingnew people and all of a sudden
she went from having no one tohaving a beautiful community,
right?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
But I guess I see, and I think that's beautiful you
know that's one of my favoriteparts of the story is watching
her build community, because Ilove that for people in general
and I love that these people,that she didn't realize how many
people she had around her thatcared about her, and I love that
part.
I'm not saying that it has tohappen, but I'm saying if you
all can have some honestconversations with each other
(44:39):
and put in some seriousboundaries, I think that
friendship is redeemable.
Does she have to have thatfriendship?
No, she can be fine without himas well.
I just don't think that it's.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
I think I see they both participate in this toxic
cycle with each other and bothof them need to make changes in
general and to make theirfriendship work you know, like,
(45:13):
like, when she said that she wasgonna fly, like every like
everybody like really ralliedaround her and he was the only
one other than patty who is her,her biggest hater.
We don't let's take patty outof the equation, because patty
is because they're not friendsand she's not part of that she's
notshe's not her people, she's not
her tribe everybody else likereally, really poured, poured
(45:36):
into her and this is the thing.
It wasn't like she was all of asudden using people because she
was opening up more, she wasconnecting with people, she was
building herself.
It wasn't like everybodyhelping her.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
She was part of a community, you know that's also
a change that she needed to makebecause she has some user
tendencies as well.
So, building this new communitywhere she is a reciprocal part
you know what I mean when shegives to people, she pours into
people and they pour into her.
(46:11):
That is a character growth thatneeded to happen for her.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
A thousand percent.
But I think it would not havehappened the way that it
happened if she still had thefriendship with Rory, because
with Rory Rory wants all of herattention when he wants it and
when he doesn't want it he wantsher to be left alone, and I
just think it's toxic.
Their friendship was toxic, Idon't disagree that it's toxic.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
I just think they can work through it.
Don't have to.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
She could choose not to, but, like I think, in his
relationship, because throughoutthe movie, like that's the only
thing you see is him building.
You don't really see him likebuilding other other
relationships with other people.
It's just that.
And so I'm like you know what?
Okay, he's one of those guys.
(47:00):
Now he has a boyfriend, hedon't need nobody else, okay,
cool.
Well, you and your boyfriend,y'all seem really happy.
Maybe he's healing some of yourdaddy issues.
Y'all go over there.
You know, really happy.
Maybe he's healing some of yourdaddy issues.
Y'all go over there.
So, okay, do you want to talk?
So we've talked about toxicfriendships and we talked about
her good friendships.
(47:21):
Were you surprised that shereally started to blossom when
she got like some goodgirlfriends around her?
Speaker 2 (47:32):
of course, not, of course not women.
Like my female friendships havealways been like some of the
most important relationships andthe most healing community
oriented, like just all aroundgood.
So, no, I'm not at allsurprised.
I was so excited when she madethat connection with Tamika and
(47:52):
the bartender.
Like I love the three of them,I love their dynamic, I love
their relationship that I seegrowing and blossoming.
It's crazy to me that, like it'slike these people were so close
to you all along but now youdiscover that you know no, these
are really good people Because,like before, that Tamika is
just the girl you hear on theother side of the wall that you
create a narrative about, butthen, when you get to know her,
(48:13):
you all actually are really good, compatible friends.
And then even the people at theairport her getting closer to
Kaya, the lady who sells thelotion washes, who I feel like
is again a silent supporter,even though you guys weren't
that close.
She's rooting for you Becauseshe calls, calls, roy out a few
(48:36):
times about his crap.
Um, who else is it in theairport?
I feel like there's somebodyelse.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
we're talking about the female relationships.
Okay, we'll say that my onlyquestion.
So my new question is why didshe not have female friends
before that that were close?
I don't know that is sointeresting because she,
objectively, is a very likableperson.
She's well like they don't likeher in her family, but her
(49:00):
sister-in-law actually likes her, Like she's a girl's girl.
You know what I'm saying?
Like she's very personable.
It seems like she really makesfriends easy.
I'm like where were yourgirlfriends at before this?
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah, I don't know, and I mean I guess some people
just don't have them, which iscrazy.
It's a crazy thing for me tothink about, like having some
relationships that have lastedso long in my life, but I am
very glad that she did find themand I love it, I.
I love the worships for herthere is, like that, female
(49:34):
support it's just different itdoes it.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
It just it hits different.
And I really feel like that waslike the game changer because,
like, they immediately startednot only pouring into her but
holding her accountable, likewhen she said, oh, I don't have
anything to wear.
And they're like oh, we'll comeover, we'll figure out, we'll
put something together.
And she's like, oh, maybetomorrow.
They're like well, are yousaying no because you want to go
(50:01):
and do something else, or youjust saying no because that's
what you do?
And she's like okay, let's godo the fashion show?
Speaker 2 (50:09):
well, they, like they immediately started like
holding her accountable to thethings that she said she wanted
yeah, agree, it was even even umkaya, the airport, encouraging
her to fly and being part ofthat, that flight simulation,
and then talking her, makingsure she got the luggage so that
(50:29):
she could go.
You know, because I think thefunny thing is, I think some of
the things that she sellsbecause that's Kaya's business,
she owns that kiosk she couldhave sold her.
I didn't understand that sheowns that.
She could have sold thatluggage to her because she sells
luggage, but no, she's like Iknow you can't afford it.
(50:50):
This is the way you go.
Get it for free.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Do you know?
The entire time I thought shewas like working at a kiosk but
trying to sell her own stuff onthe side.
No, I think that's hers.
That is amazing.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
There's a little scene where she leaves oh, where
, well, like she leaves, oh, shesaid, oh, no, okay, so she's
trying to sell the lotion washesto that lady and she was like
you're supporting a blackwoman's me-owned business.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah, I did hear her say that and I thought she was
specifically talking about thelotion washes and then, later on
, like when the guy's like, well, can you get off.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
He essentially asked her can you get off work to go?
And she was like who gonna stopme?
Because she, you know what Imean, it's her business.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Yeah, I heard her say who gonna stop me?
That's why she was just beingsassy.
But I love her even moreknowing now that that's actually
her own business.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
And again, like I said, like she could have sold
her luggage but she was like no,I know enough to know you can't
.
This is how you get it for free.
Cause like it's aboutsupporting you, not just you
know.
Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Yes, there were like beautiful examples of um, female
friendships and female supportand why, like those
relationships are so important.
But one of the things that wegot to see in this show, which I
don't feel like often getsportrayed, are friendships
between, like women and men thatare healthy and fun and not
(52:24):
crossing any line.
Now, I'm not including terrencein this conversation.
I think that Terrence belongsin a different conversation.
But the two guys who work onthe tarmac with Terrence they
are so funny, they have afriendship together.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
I love their friendship.
I do too.
You know, seeing healthy malefriendships on screen is
something that does not happenoften.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
But like they are great friends to her, like you
see them interacting with Kaya,like you just see, like they are
just great guys and greatfriends, like they they they
tease her, but they alsoencourage her and they show that
they care about her like I.
I love that I love that because,once again, that's not always
(53:14):
something that we see, you knowand I, she's getting all of like
.
She went from this very, verytoxic friendship with rory to
all of a sudden opening herselfup and she has so many people
who, like you said, were rightthere in her face, who actually
care about her.
But the only difference nothingchanged, except she allowed
(53:37):
herself to receive it, becausethey were always doing this.
They were always speaking toher, interacting with her,
loving on her, encouraging her,but she never received it before
agreed she let them into herlife a lot more too, I think,
during this process with herloving on her encouraging her,
but she never received it before.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
Agreed you, let them into her life a lot more too?
I think during this process.
Speaker 1 (53:59):
Yes, the show is a great example about the power of
friendship and the power ofcommunity.
You have to ask yourself if I'mstuck and I'm not able to grow,
I'm not able to move forward,I'm not able to reach my goals.
Maybe I need to look around andsee who's around me and maybe I
(54:21):
need to expand my community.
Maybe I need to decrease mycommunity and then push some
people out.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Or take a break, take a healthy break.
But one of the things is I likethat point because, like so
much of her issue is that shecan't see a way out and so these
people being able to give herglimpses, and because of how
they see her versus how she seesherself, she gets to start to
see her way out because they cansee her being in the management
program, they can see her ontrips, planes and flights.
(54:50):
Girl, when I tell you thatflight simulator that they set
up for her in order to help hergirl, I almost, almost tears.
I was like, okay, I'm not goingto go out there like a punk,
but I almost did.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
It was beautiful, because the effort, the thought
and just the way they loved thethought and just the way they
loved the way that they allloved on her, you can very
easily tell she's neverexperienced anything like that.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
No, no, it feels like family, you know, in a way that
she's, like you said, neverexperienced.
That is what family is, that'swhat people, who, who care about
you, that's what that feelslike.
And to even to be able to openher up to the point where she
could even.
I don't think romantic love isnot the point of the goal, um,
(55:40):
and it doesn't have to be, butthe way she could even open
herself up enough to think, oh,maybe I could have romantic love
is because now she's like, oh,this is what love is supposed to
feel like.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Right, absolutely, absolutely.
They people can love you rightwhere you are, right where you
are, and so, yeah, that wasbeautiful, it was, that was.
That was very, a very touching.
Speaker 2 (56:03):
I love the way that was done but I love that about
shows in general, like when theyreally show people build a
community and come together andhow that looks.
I love those depictions of it.
I love seeing thoserelationships form and how they
kind of get their little theirthing with each other.
Yeah, okay.
So the two guys in the airport,sean and Deshawn, they're like
brothers, they are.
(56:23):
They're like brotherly figuresin the best way though, because
they tease you, you, but theylove you.
They're gonna push you, butthey're not gonna let you quit
on yourself, you know and sothat, juxtaposed to her actual
brother, is jarring.
Speaker 1 (56:38):
You know her actual blood brother, who?
Here's the thing.
It's not that he does not lovehis sister, he does love her,
but it is wrapped up in so muchtoxicity from all of the family
baggage.
True, they have little moments.
(57:02):
They do have little momentswhen they connect.
You know and you're like this ishow their relationship is
supposed to be, but it neverstays that way long and here's
the thing I'm going to say thisit's not all the brother,
because she has a lot ofproblems and in some ways he's
correct.
At 35 she should have herselftogether.
(57:22):
So it's not a one-sided thingwhere she's just a victim and
her brother is a terrorizer.
He has her terrorizer, he hasher issues and he has his issues
and it leads to a terriblerelationship.
But I agree that the guys onthe tarmac show her how
beautiful a brother sisterrelationship could be.
(57:45):
They do.
That was very beautiful.
It was very beautiful.
I really enjoyed that.
We started off.
You know, talking about thetoxic relationship stuff is kind
of hard, but I feel like weended on a beautiful note.
Sometimes you have to take thebitter to appreciate the sweet.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
I like that.
It sounds beautiful.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
So, guys, thank you so much for joining us with this
episode.
I'm really, really lookingforward to our next episode.
Please join us.
It'll be our final episode onhow to die alone.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
See you next time.
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