Inside Man: A Moral Maze

Stanley Tucci delivers a mesmerizing performance as Jefferson Grieff, a former criminology professor now sitting on death row for the murder of his wife. From behind prison walls, he uses his brilliant analytical mind to solve cases that stump authorities—all while insisting he deserves his death sentence.

When British journalist Beth Davenport arrives seeking an interview, she becomes entangled in Jefferson's world after her new acquaintance Janice mysteriously disappears. What begins as two separate stories—a prisoner solving crimes in America and a vicar's family in England—gradually converges into a profound examination of human morality and breaking points.

The true brilliance of Inside Man lies in its exploration of Jefferson's unsettling philosophy: anyone can become a murderer given the right circumstances. We watch as David Tennant's character, a respected vicar, spirals into increasingly desperate actions to protect his son from a misunderstanding that threatens to destroy their lives. Meanwhile, Janice proves to be anything but a passive victim, using remarkable psychological manipulation skills to survive her captivity in the vicar's basement.

The series refuses easy moral judgments, instead placing every character in ethically ambiguous territory. Even as we're repulsed by their actions, we find ourselves understanding their motivations. The show balances its dark subject matter with unexpected moments of humor and humanity, creating a viewing experience that's as intellectually stimulating as it is emotionally engaging.

Whether you're drawn to crime dramas, psychological thrillers, or thoughtful examinations of human nature, Inside Man offers a provocative look at what lies beneath the surface of ordinary lives. Watch now and join the conversation about where your own moral breaking point might be.

Contact Niq & Jess

Episode Transcript

Niq (00:00):
Hi guys, and welcome to our next episode.
Today we're going to bediscussing Inside man on Netflix
.
I'm one of your hosts, nick,and I'm Jess upon it again and I

(00:25):
love when I stumble upon a showthat I've seen but I haven't
seen in a while and I get towatch it again and it's almost
like watching it for the firsttime.
But you kind of have a vaguememory.
Had you seen the show before Isuggested it?

Jess (00:33):
No, I had not watched it.
I saw it recommended on Netflix, but I never took the time to
watch it before.

Niq (00:40):
I like the show because it poses a lot of ethical questions
and moral questions and in someways it has me judging myself,
because I find a lot of thecharacters very likable, even
though they shouldn't be.

Jess (00:59):
Yeah, yeah, well, I think.
Okay, yes, all right.
So Inside man is a show about aman who is in prison for the
murder of his wife, who isplayed by Stanley Tucci.
He murdered his wife in somegrim, gruesome way, but he has
this unique ability to reallykind of get to the bottom of

(01:23):
different crime scenes abilityto really kind of get to the
bottom of different crime scenes.
So people come to him withdifferent cases or different
crimes that they want to helphim solve and they allow him to
solve them while in prisonbecause he's so good at it.
So the main story here is awoman who meets this woman
casually on the train.
They start an associateship,like a really early kind of
friendship, and then the womangoes missing and she believes

(01:46):
that she's missing, but becauseshe doesn't know her that well,
she doesn't have a lot to go onand she brings him this case.
So the show is him workingthrough figuring out what
happened and also, you see, whatactually happened to her friend
, whose name is Janice, alongthe way, along the way.

Niq (02:04):
So for this episode, I kind of want to discuss what the
show is trying to say, thequestions that they're asking,
and if we get any answers inthose questions, how's that
going?
That sounds good to me.
So the main character, who'splayed by Stanley Tucci, who's
like a criminology professorwho's on death row for murdering

(02:27):
his wife, who uses anotherinmate who's also on death row,
who's like a serial killer, heuses him because he has, like
what do they call the memory.
He has a photographic memory,yeah, photographic memory.
He uses him almost like a taperecorder.
So they interview people andthey take on cases and they try
to help solve cases, and so oneof the things that Jefferson

(02:53):
says is he basically says thatanybody can be a murderer in the
right situation.
Correct?
Do you agree with that?

Jess (03:03):
Yes, I think we all have like I don't think that there's
anyone that's like purelyinnocent could never commit a
crime.
I do think that there arecertain crimes that, like you
know, certain people wouldn'tcommit.
But yeah, murder, that basicone, I think, yeah, most people
could be pushed to that.

Niq (03:21):
Your mom.
I could never see your momcommitting murder.
Your mom's like one of thesweetest people you could see it
.

Jess (03:28):
I don't feel like I can answer that question.

Niq (03:32):
I know that everybody has their, everybody has like their
breaking point, and I guess ifyou put people, a lot of people,
maybe they're in like survival.
You know situations, Maybe youcould be.
But is that murder, though, ifyou're in a survival situation?

Jess (03:51):
Did you kill someone?
Yes, that's murder.
That is murder Like it's backof, like self-defense.
That is still murder Like that.

Niq (04:08):
Now that doesn't mean that you necessarily have to be
punished for every murder,because if is self-defense, then
yeah, of course I don't wantthat person punished, but did
they still commit a murder?
Yes, see, when I, when I feltlike the question I felt like
they were posing was not aself-defense question.
I felt like they were like canyou create a situation where
someone who would not inherentlytake someone's life by choice
decides to take someone's lifeby choice?

Jess (04:28):
So like, okay, so we look at what happens in this
situation.
So we have the vicar who istrying to protect his son from a
false application, applicationgoodness accusation.
And that's kind of why he takesthings in his own hands.
It goes down the realm of crimeIn his mind.
Everything he's doing is toprotect his son.

(04:49):
So you have to remember, mom,I'm like you know what I mean.
If she felt like it'sprotecting, you know, her
children, she'd do a lot and Ithink most people would.
That's why it's sounderstandable the kind of
situation he gets himself intonow.
Yes, of course I could looklooking at it.
I'm like, okay, yeah, I can seea lot of ways that you could

(05:10):
have got out of this.
You handled this completelywrong because you were in a
situation where you were kind oflike heightened and irrational.
But the base of it for him ishe feels like it's a more moral
decision to protect his childthan the things that he does to
protect his child.

Niq (05:26):
And so the Jefferson, who is like the guy on death row.
He spends the entire like Ifeel like the entire show saying
don't like me, I'm not a goodman.
Do you agree with that?
Yeah, Do you also find him verylikable, though he is very

(05:48):
likable.

Jess (05:48):
But how often is that People write letters to serial
killers in prison?
It's crazy Because there'ssomething like you could be a
bad person who does bad things,but be very charismatic, and
Jefferson is very charismatic.

Niq (06:03):
He is.
So is the vicar, so is hispartner in crime, so is the
vicar.
So is his partner in crime.
Like the guy who's like hisvideo reporter?
Yeah, they go into detailsabout their crimes and, like the
, what is his friend on deathrow?

Jess (06:21):
I don't remember his name.

Niq (06:23):
Dylan is like a serial killer and like a cannibal and
so they kind of go into likerather graphic detail about his
crimes.
But it's such a in such a lighthearted way.
You feel very much removed fromthe crime yeah, but gruesome
crimes, but they present it insuch a way that you feel so far

(06:47):
removed from the crimes that itdoesn't feel real, maybe Because
it's very much giving buddycomedy, as very serious things
are happening.
Jefferson is investigating thecrimes, but he does not leave
the prison.
He's on death row, he has verylimited visits, very limited

(07:09):
phone calls, so he's like kindof pulling the strings from
prison, so this is not somethingwhere he's out in the streets
and so you have like thesescenes with him in the prison
and then you actually haveactually have like scenes of
what is going on.
Um, as you as like he's likelooking for this woman, janice.
And another thing that I foundinteresting was the way that he

(07:34):
got the case.
Um was the journalist came andshe wanted to interview him and
he really wasn't interested inthe interview.
And then she came back andshe's like I have a case for you
.
And he said, if he, if he'slike you, can't have both, you
can, either I'll eitherinvestigate your case or I'll
give you an all access interview.
But you have to choose in thismoment.

(07:55):
And if I, if I give you theinterview, you can never ask me
about the case.
And she said, okay, I'll takethe interview, and I was floored
.

Jess (08:06):
I was not Really.
Yeah, I was not, I wasn'tbecause I'm like, like, he's
clearly like.
So he's clearly trying to teachher a lesson One.
He, like you said, he's acriminology professor.
He spent his life as aprofessor, an academic, an
academician.
He, it sounds like you know,even though his wife's murder

(08:29):
sounds gruesome, to what we knowabout the wife's murder right
now, it sounds like a crime ofpassion.
Not that he was a careercriminal, you know, what he is
is a professor.
And so the way he talks toeverybody Dylan, the warden,
everybody it's like he'steaching and he teaches through
the Socratic method.
He asks a lot of questions, hetries to get you to figure it
out for yourself.
He leads you but he doesn'tdirectly tell you the answer.

(08:51):
And that's what he's doing withher.
She comes in the first time.
She comes in to interview him.
She's very judgmental, she'svery, like you know, disgusted,
obviously disgusted with him,and he, like you know, disgusted
, obviously disgusted with him,and he makes a comment that,
like, you think you're, you know, you think you're something
about.
Basically, she thinks she'sbetter than him, like, or
everyone, most people, right,and so he is trying to bring her

(09:14):
down a notch to say no, listen,your career is more important
than this woman that you arepretending is your friend
because they just met they didjust me.

Niq (09:23):
but she knew her well enough.
But the lady sent her like apicture and like she had
reasonable enough suspicion tothink that that woman was in
trouble.

Jess (09:35):
She did.
No, I'm not doubting that atall.
And, of course, as the audience, you know that the woman really
is in trouble, right, and youalso know that they met in a
situation where Janice saved herfrom something and now she's
kind of like a little bit, youknow, wants to save Janice as
well.
So no, it's not a questionabout you know, everything was
real, of course, everything wasreal, and Janice is really in
trouble.
What he is trying to teach heris that this kind of moral

(09:57):
superiority that you have aboutyourself is like built on a
false house.
Because you are genuinelyconcerned about Janice, you are
also ambitious.

Niq (10:12):
That's what I was shocked about.
Like you know, this woman is introuble and you know this man
can help, even though it's crazybecause, like the prisoner is
in the US, he's an Americanprisoner.
Am I right about that?
Yeah, you're right and then,but the actual woman who's
missing is in England, so he'sin it, but you know that like he

(10:34):
can help her yeah, and thejournalist is from England,
right, but you choose, youchoose the interview because I'm
like, let's say you choose,okay, help my friend and your
friend has helped.
Couldn't you just interview herafterwards?
You know what I'm saying?
Like I, just I.

(10:55):
If, if you needed to have aninterview, okay, you needed to
have an interview.
Why would you not like have himsave your friend, find your
friend, and then you can write afirst person account because
you your friend, and then youcan write a first-person account
because your friend was savedand you can interview your
friend?
When she chose the interview, Icould not believe it.

(11:18):
I don't know.
It made me look at her the sameway that I looked at the
murderers.

Jess (11:25):
But he saw that.
Jefferson saw that from thebeginning and that's what he was
trying to say.
You think you're morallysuperior but when given the
opportunity, you will dosomething that is self-serving,
right, and she kind of, in a way, needed to be brought down a
peg.
He's an interested person to doit, but you know what I mean.
But yeah, that's true, and sothankfully I'm sorry real quick.

(11:51):
Also, like once you realizeyour friend was in danger.
She is a journalist, she's gotgood instincts, she knew she was
in trouble.
You can flew your behind backthere and said I'll do this
interview later, I'll do theinvestigation myself interview
later I'll do the investigationmyself.
You chose to go back and stillcontinue to talk to this guy
because her what is it?
She's a journalist and shewrites all about crime.

(12:13):
I don't know what you callthose things, goodness, but
anyway, like her specialty, herspecialty area is crime.
You know what I mean.
So you could have chosen to goback home and investigate that
and say you know what, I'll trythis again with this dude again
later, right, yeah, at that timehe didn't have a date for his
execution.

Niq (12:33):
Right.
So yes, luckily he takes thecase without letting her know.
He lets her know eventually,but she doesn't find out until
later on that he's actually beensecretly like investigating,
doesn't find out until later onthat he's actually been secretly
investigating her friend beingmissing while doing several
investigations.
While investigating her case,he solves two other cases.

(12:55):
The case with the senator wasvery interesting.

Jess (13:01):
With the money being deposited.
Yes, that was yeah, and that'sagain.
I'm like it's hard to say thatwas hilarious because it's such
a serious topic that you knowRight, but the way it's
presented is comical.

Niq (13:15):
It is because, like you said, what did you call it?
The Socratic method?
Yeah, he figured out the answer, like someone presented a case
to him and he figured out theanswer immediately.
He did not tell the guy whobought the case to him the
answer, because he basicallyasked him hey, like he's like
you, you, so the politician saidthat he had been accused of

(13:37):
rape 30 years ago and that hedidn't do it.
And so he was having thissituation where every time he
had sex with his wife, he wasgetting a deposit for the same
amount of money into his bankaccount.
He couldn't understand why.
And so Jefferson's asking himquestions, and Jefferson
immediately puts two and twotogether and says hey, I know

(13:58):
for a fact that, because I thinkhe had like three accusations,
he's like I know for a fact thatyou've raped at least one of
these women.
And the politician was likewhatever, you don't know what
you're talking about.
And Jefferson's like I knowexactly what happened, but he
never told the politician.
And then so Dylan is trying tofigure it out.
And so he's having Dylan likeask questions of him and kind of

(14:19):
do thought exercises toeventually, like he kind of
leads Dylan to like the answer,which is like it's very
interesting because they're bothon death row, but it's like
they're trying to learn andunderstand the human condition
and they're both.

Jess (14:36):
They're both on death row.
They're both incrediblyintelligent different skill sets
, but incredibly intelligent,which is why they're able to
learn from each other.
Yeah, but yeah, they're able tolearn from each other.
Yeah, but yeah, they're tryingto.
I do think that they're bothtrying to learn about the human
experience.
So he's a criminology professor, so he's always been fascinated
with crime and why people dowhat they do, and probably these

(14:56):
moral questions that he keepsposing to everyone.
And then Dylan is almost likehe's trying to learn about these
humans from outside, as if he'snot.

Niq (15:05):
Right, that is, I agree Like it.
And I wonder if that like Dylan, with the fact that he was like
a predator and a cannibal andhe did a lot of like body
dissection, if that was himtrying to understand humanity
because he does not feel like it.

Jess (15:25):
Because he doesn't understand, he has no capacity
for empathy.
None you know so like and thatI can imagine.
That removes you from the humanexperience.
He's still fascinated with it,though.

Niq (15:36):
Right, it was very like I feel like Jefferson.
Even though he knows how heended up in the situation where
he killed his wife, I think partof him he still doesn't
understand it and I feel likehe's trying to work through it
with these cases like I feellike he understands it all too
well.
I think he's trying to geteverybody else to understand

(15:57):
like you also have this capacitymaybe that's what it is,
because it's just like peopleask him very direct questions
about why he killed his wife andhe will not explain it.
But it's very clear that heknows that there's a lot of
context that people don't have,that only he has, that he's not

(16:18):
willing to share, correct, and Idon't know what is that context
?
Is that a way of him trying toprotect his wife?

Jess (16:27):
I don't think that we're going to know until it gets
revealed, or if it gets revealed, what actually happened and
where her head is, because hesays little things.
He gives you little nuggets,like he says once to I think
it's the reporter, which is Beth, if you ever really love
someone, don't come home earlyyeah, I heard him say that and

(16:49):
I'm like okay, so was shecheating?
you know, did you come home andsay something.
I feel like it's something thatfeels basic for him, so I'm
like I feel like it wassomething even worse right.
Yeah, I hate that they neverexplain that honestly, yeah
especially because is this alimited series or it is, it is
we're not getting another, no,no no, it came out in 2022, so I

(17:13):
figured by now we weren't goingto get another one.
But like that, sucks.

Niq (17:17):
It was never, I don't think .
I think it was always meant tobe open-ended in that way.

Jess (17:23):
But even the ending with Janice coming back to him.

Niq (17:28):
Yeah, I think it's.

Jess (17:31):
I'm excited for season two and Janice to be the villain.
Can I tell you, Janice is oneof my favorite characters.

Niq (17:37):
I also enjoy her.
I love Janice so much.
Here's the thing Honestly, theydid a very good job of writing
characters who are neither blackand white, you know who, who
make impulsive decisions evenwhen, like who are wrong in
their rights and rights andthey're wrong like I think that

(18:00):
I.
I really enjoyed it.
I really enjoyed it.
I really enjoyed watchingpeople twist themselves around
trying to figure out a way.
Janice is so intelligent.
You kind of learn from the verybeginning of the show that she
is a very intelligent woman.
She's fiercely independent.

(18:20):
She's very moral.
You know what I mean.
I don't know.
I don't agree with that one.
You don't think that she's verymoral.
You know what I mean.
Like she's, I don't know, Idon't agree with that one.
You don't think that she'smoral.
Not in the sense no innocent.
I feel like, because think aboutit, like when, like the
journalist is her name lydiayeah, lydia, lydia is her real

(18:41):
name.
I'm sorry, beth, when beth waslike being like intimidated on
the train by the guy like Janicelike jumped in.

Jess (18:49):
When no one else would.
She jumped in when no one elsewould.
I don't think that Janice is abad person.
I just think like I don't thinkJanice is a bad person and she
doesn't have, like these sort ofbase desires to do bad things.
But I also think she hasinteresting morals and I think
I'm like, oh, that's why I wishwe were getting more of her Like

(19:10):
, think about the way that sheinteracts with the son Like she
does not.
She's able to appeal to the sonLike the vicar has a son who is
just, is classic, highlyintelligent, wants nothing to do
with school, can do it easilybut refuses to do it kind of
rebellious kid right.
And she's able to relate to himbecause she does not place

(19:31):
judgment on the things thateverybody else judges him for.

Niq (19:34):
Mm-hmm, but is that because she also is kind of outside of
society in a certain way andthat's why I'm saying she
doesn't?

Jess (19:45):
I don't think her morals are necessarily very traditional
.
You know what I mean.
Not that she doesn't have well,she does.
There's a clear right and wrongwhen she sees the stuff on the
computer.
That's a very clear wrong.
I don't think in mostsituations.
Well, I can't even say that now.

Niq (20:02):
I think she has traditional morals but she doesn't have
traditional socialization likeshe relates to people in a very
different way, like, but I don't.
I think that's different frommorals like I think she's.
She's very black and white tome when it comes to her morals,
like right and wrong, like Ifeel like even crime and

(20:24):
punishment, but I don't thinkshe feels like she's not a warm,
fluffy person.
She doesn't want even honestlyshe doesn't really want to be
friends with Beth, like Bethkind of like forces her to like
be friends with her.
You know she's very regimentedsocially.
She's not like.

Jess (20:43):
Maybe morals is the wrong word.
She doesn't have traditionalvalues, I agree with that.
I do agree with that, but to memakes her even more interesting
.

Niq (20:51):
I wondered if she was autistic.

Jess (20:52):
Honestly, I wonder that about her and Dylan.

Niq (20:59):
I don't know, dylan, I think and here's the thing I'm
going to use the wrong terms andyou're going to have to correct
me.

Jess (21:05):
Of course.

Niq (21:06):
I think that Dylan is a sociopath, if that's the one,
that where he can't feelanything.

Jess (21:15):
Social personality disorder.
But those things aren'tmutually exclusive.
There's also other things thathe does and I mean, and I don't
know for certain, like I don'tfeel strongly about it with
Dylan, I don't necessarily feelstrongly about it with Janice, I
could see where it could be,but I don't feel strongly about
autism with her either.
But I'm like I just I justthink for both of them I wonder.
You know, it's a question likeyou know, not like a foregone

(21:38):
conclusion Right.

Niq (21:47):
So I'm going to tell you why I feel like that with when
it comes to Janice, because youknow, autism is a spectrum.
We know that.
But there are people on thatspectrum who are very direct,
very black and white with theirthinking, very regimented, like
how she's, like I have thisphone call scheduled with my
sister.
If there's no phone call, she'sgoing to know it's a problem.
How she talks about she issomeone who takes long walks by
herself without her phone, likeshe doesn't have a lot of social

(22:10):
, like she doesn't have like abig social system and she's
comfortable in that though she'svery comfortable with that you
know what I'm saying and likethere's a certain subset, I feel
like, of autistic people whodon't get their joy and their
motivation from socialinteraction.
They get it from doing thethings that they enjoy, and it

(22:31):
has nothing to do with relatingto other people.
You know what I'm saying and sothat's why I'm like oh, I
wonder, you know?
But she has a but the way shemanipulates the son makes me
like I don't know, becausethat's why I'm like, I'm not
certain.

Jess (22:47):
She is incredibly manipulative as well, and she's
very good at knowing what otherpeople want in order to
manipulate people.
She's also very good at socialcues.
Which women who are on thespectrum are better at
recognizing social cues than mentypically, I'm not convinced.

(23:07):
It's an interesting question.
I'm not convinced it could goeither way.
Um, but yeah, her ability atsocial manipulation she starts
manipulating the husband and theson from when she walks into
the interview.
Yes, she shapes him, she takesthat office.
She knows she's taking theoffice his, the um, the
husband's office.
She knows she's taking theoffice, his, the um, the
husband's office.
She knows she's puttingsituations to where he feels

(23:28):
like he has to give her thatoffice, right, and because she,
she just wants to work in theoffice, but she does you know
what I mean.
And the same thing with the son.
I'm like the way that, like shefigures out the son's
motivations, what's important tohim, and is able to use that to
get him to study math.
Yes, she's very good atmanipulating the situation,
which is why it makes her suchan interesting victim once the

(23:50):
vicar takes her and imprisonsher, basically in his basement,
right, because she's so good atmanipulating him, the only
person, that she's not as goodat manipulating the wife, which
is also interesting to me.

Niq (24:03):
Right.
But in the beginning though, itseemed like she was, like she
was pulling strings with thewife and it started.
It was working in the beginning, but the wife did clock her
very easily as soon as, like shesaw, like her husband, like
going in one direction, you know, and she's like wait a minute,

(24:25):
like what's going on?
Because, like every time theygo down and talk to janice,
because they have janice intheir basement, every time they
go down and talk to janice,janice is telling them very
divergent stories or telling,you know, telling them things
about the other one.
That's not true, you know, she,and the wife does clock it.

(24:45):
She's like wait a minute, no,no, this is not right.
She tells her husband and hestill doesn't see it.

Jess (24:52):
No, because she's so good at manipulating them too, the
men.
The wife clocks it from whenshe gets the office.
Because she does say why wouldyou give her the office?
Tell her you don't want to Tellher.
You don't want to Tell her hisson he's a vicar, which is like
a priest In other words, apriest in British, and so she

(25:18):
comes to tutor his son onSundays.
She was like, tell her you needyour office on Sunday.
She clocks it then that Janicecould be manipulative, but of
course he doesn't figure it out.
So like, and I don't think thatthe vicar is dumb, he's not
dumb, he's a smart guy, but he'snot as smart as his wife or
Janice.

Niq (25:36):
I don't think it's a question of intelligence.
I think it's a question of himfeeling like, because he's a
vicar, he has to see the best ineveryone and he has to try to
serve and help everyone, insteadof like, like dissecting
situations and making gooddecisions for the situation he's
.
He has this woman in hisbasement, like chained to a wall

(26:01):
, and he's trying to convinceher that he's a good person.
Yeah, and so, because he'strying to appear as a good guy,
instead of saying you know what,at this point I've done a
criminal act.
I need to go all in on being acriminal he's trying to convince
her to be a good guy, that he'sa good guy.
So he's only going halfway andshe uses that to her advantage.

(26:23):
You know like she does.

Jess (26:29):
But that's why I say Janice is very good at
recognizing people's underlyingmotivation and using that to
manipulate them.

Niq (26:37):
She does, she does and I.

Jess (26:41):
Which makes her probably one of the most fascinating
victims of a crime I've everseen depicted.

Niq (26:48):
Yes, my question was during that situation, yes, janice was
the victim, but did you alsofeel like for most of that
situation, she was in control?

Jess (26:57):
No, yeah, I mean.
Well, to some degree, becauseshe couldn't unchain herself,
she couldn't get out thatbasement and Janice, like, he
imprisons her.
I don't know if we're supposedto explain.
She discovers something attheir home and so a series of
like just these weird thingshappen to, where he injures her,
all unintentionally, leading toher being imprisoned in the
basement because he thinks thatshe's going to falsely accuse

(27:18):
his son of something which, theway Janice discovers the
information, makes it seem likehis son did something wrong that
he shouldn't have done.
Right but Right.
But yes, like she does now from.
She's chained into his basement, she can't get out, but she is
emotionally manipulating thesepeople left and right but in an

(27:42):
attempt to save herself.

Niq (27:44):
Right, absolutely Right.
This is not for fun, this isfor survival, and she's doing
her level best to make thesituation alive, giving them
everything All she got.

Jess (27:57):
Yeah, it's fascinating.

Niq (27:59):
And it doesn't.
I mean, it doesn't help thatthese people are criminals, but
they're not criminals.
This is the priest and his wifeand they're holding her hostage
while trying to not let the sonknow what's going on, while
also like trying, becauseeventually some even though she
doesn't have a big social circleeventually someone's going to

(28:19):
figure out that she's missing.
So they're trying to cover thatup, while they're trying to
figure out how to diffuse thisaccusation.

Jess (28:28):
You know, like it's, it's a lot going on and these people
are not criminal minded, butthey also don't have just plain
old common sense because of theheightened emotional situation
and because of the threat ofwhat happens to this, and I
think in other situations theywould, but they are so and that
again goes back to like thesedifferent moral questions.

(28:48):
So, like in his mind, thevicar's mind, everything he's
doing is justified because he'strying to protect his son, and
I'm pretty sure in his wife'smind for the most part, even
though there's several timeswhere she's like dude.

Niq (28:57):
Let's hang this up the same for us well, I feel like the
wife was trying to kill Janiceearly and often.

Jess (29:05):
But once she kind of realized that he wasn't going to
kill her or she didn't think hewas going to kill her she was
like, okay, well, now we need togive up at this point.
I don't know, she kind ofwaffles too.

Niq (29:18):
Given the opportunity, she would have killed Janice.
He stopped her, she would havekilled Janice.
If he stopped her, she wouldhave killed Janice, and he was
the only reason.
And so then he decides thathe's going to kill Janice and he
convinces his wife to go away.
He doesn't want her to knowwhat he's doing, even though
she's not crazy.

Jess (29:38):
She's not going away.

Niq (29:40):
And then he finds the slowest way to try and kill her.
And so this is once againyou're trying to be a good
person because you want to killher, but you don't want her to
know like he's trying to killher with carbon monoxide, so he
just puts like a heater that heknows that leaks carbon monoxide
in the basement with her, andso he does it like he, instead

(30:02):
of just like strangling her orshooting her or stabbing her or
poisoning her.

Jess (30:08):
Because I'm like, here's the thing if you're trying to
make the moral judgment, janicetechnically did nothing wrong.
She was just coming to do herjob and discovered something
that she shouldn't.
You know that she you know whatI mean.
That she, I guess she shouldn'tdiscover sounds wrong.
But she just discoveredsomething you know and, of
course, was upset by it becauseit was something that was very
upsetting.
So, like the moral thing, evenif you had to like say you feel

(30:33):
like you had to kill her toprotect your son, like why not
give her something that's poisonthat's going to kill her
quickly and in her sleep and youknow what I mean that's not
going to make her suffer.

Niq (30:43):
Right, especially because, like she had already had her for
a couple days and they they hadalready like she'd already been
like drinking whiskey, likethey had given her given her
whiskey to like relax and stuff.
So I'm like, okay, at thispoint she'll pretty much eat or
drink whatever you're giving her, but also like, even if you
didn't want to do poison whichto me poison sounds like the

(31:03):
best idea I'm like putting thatheater in there and killing her
slowly so she doesn't knowwhat's going on until it's too
late.
Is once again you trying to belike a good person?
Because it's like very handsoff and it's probably an
accident.

Jess (31:17):
So you still like.
Even though you're about tokill Janice and you've been put
in prison for two days, thevicar is still obsessed with
what she thinks about him whichis very weird.

Niq (31:26):
Like you gotta just make a decision.
You know what I'm saying.
Like once you change her in thebasement, like it was over what
you got you, you go all, all ornothing.

Jess (31:37):
At that point right right.

Niq (31:40):
But he, I don't know, he tried so many different ways to
like, defuse, like theaccusation and it never worked.
And actually things like themore he tried to defuse the
situation, the worse things got.
And I'm just like you don'tknow what you're doing.

(32:01):
You like you don't know whatyou're doing, like you don't
know what you're doing, so youneed to either go to the police
and just come clean abouteverything you know or like just
kill her, bury her body.
You know like.
But Janice is so.
She was so smart Like sheconvinced them to like send her

(32:21):
sister an email, because she'slike well, my sister knows that
I'm going to do like a.
Janice is so she was so smartLike she convinced them to like
send her sister an email Causeshe's like well, my sister knows
that I'm going to do like aSkype call with her, so you have
to cancel the, cancel it, tellher that I'm walking in the
woods without my phone.
And they do it.
And then the.
And then, like the next day,the wife is like wait a minute,
how would she send the email ifshe's walking in the woods
without her phone?

(32:43):
And I'm like yeah, how would?

Jess (32:45):
you, yeah, exactly, and not only like so many things.
I think Janice set them up somany ways to like both.
I'm trying to get out of here,but if you do kill me, they're
going to know it's you, becauseagain, this is also going to
ping from your house, right?
Yes, you know that, my laptop,that this email came from your
house, right, yes, you know that, my laptop, that this email

(33:05):
came from your house.
Right, it was like and then she, oh, the funniest part is okay,
so when he first puts her downin the basement and then she, he
leaves her for a while.
And when he comes back to herthat very first time and she's
like I peed in every corner ofthis room.

Niq (33:20):
She did and she's like I left my blood.
My DNA is everywhere.

Jess (33:25):
She has cut her own arms and has spread her blood all
over his basement, so there's noway that they're not going to
find out that she was in thatbasement.

Niq (33:34):
Yes, like she, from the very beginning, was playing
catch.
She was, and I love thatbecause she's like.
I don't have time to sit in thecorner and cower and cry, and
the only time I feel like shedoes that is when she's doing it
on purpose to manipulate them,like when she convinces the
vicar that the wife punches herin the face, or is it the

(33:56):
opposite?

Jess (33:57):
she did both.
She told them it seemed like itto both.
She tried to make, but the wifedidn't buy it.
Because by that time the wifeis like this chick is playing us
.
She don't fully understand, butshe's like but I know you're
trying to play us.
And so she does it to both.
She makes it seem like, shetries to make it seem like the
husband, but she doesn't buy it.
And then she tries and then shedoes the and the husband
believes it.
The husband believes yes, yes,she absolutely hit herself.

(34:23):
She did this to herself.

Niq (34:24):
She did.
She did Also.
Eventually, the son finds herin the basement and spends time
down there with her.
Why did he not let her go?

Jess (34:39):
This is like.
That is probably the mostfrustrating part of the show to
me, and I feel like they wroteit well.
They wrote it perfectlyaccurately.
So it's not that, it's just thethe idea that a teenager has to
be the one that you have toreason with in order, because, I
don't care how smart he is,he's still an irrational,
hormonal teenager and she's andhe's worried about all the wrong

(35:00):
things when they are both indanger, because at this point he
finds her gets locked into thebasement as well and the carbon
monoxide poison has alreadystarted, right.
So they're both on the timeclock and there's nothing she's
saying to make him rational.
And I'm just like, oh my God tobe with a teenager and have to
do this.
He wants to figure out what'sgoing on.
It's not time to figure outwhat's going on.

(35:20):
It's not time to figure outwhat's going on.

Niq (35:21):
It's time to get out of this basement.
Absolutely my question.
I'm like let her out and thenquestion your parents.

Jess (35:27):
And then question your parents.
No, you have to figure outwhat's going on, Because as soon
as he is so focused on tryingto figure out whether or not his
parents are lying to him, I'mlike he's going to kill her.
I thought he was going to killher.

Niq (35:49):
Because he's going to be.
Then he's going to be trying toprove his parents and, you know
, protect his parents orwhatever.
And I'm like sir, I, just I thelack of survival skills was
driving me crazy.
Well, I think by the time thatthey both realized that there
was carbon monoxide poisoningwell, I don't even think he ever
realized it by the time janicerealized that they were being
poisoned, he was already soirrational and delusional and
keyed up that he wasn't evenlistening to her.
But then the fact that he endsup attacking her and trying to
kill her, and I'm just likelisten, you don't even know.

(36:15):
Clearly has happened right youknow, my thing was once you
called your parents and askedthem direct questions and they
both lied to your face.
My next call would have been tothe police.

Jess (36:28):
You know it's like, but you know it's that
self-preservation.
Because here's the thing.
It's not that I would want toget my parents in trouble.
I would never want to get myparents in trouble.
But at this point you arelocked in a basement with carbon
monoxide poisoning.
So the only answer is police.
Right, you know what I mean.
The only answer is police.
You got your cell phonebatteries limited.

(36:48):
You got a limited number ofcalls.
If I call 911, I know someone'scoming.
You know it's not even like atthis point trying to disprove or
understand my parents at thispoint, because it's just like I
can call my parents and they notanswer.
I don't have to have.
I know 911 is going to pick upand I know somebody coming to
get these walls out.
You don't need to knock thewalls down or whatever you got
to do to get me out of thisbasement.
So if I can get on the phoneand say, hey, address, I'm

(37:11):
locked in a basement here,somebody's coming.

Niq (37:14):
Yeah, but he didn't know about the carbon monoxide
poisoning when he was callinghis parents and stuff.

Jess (37:18):
You know that you locked in a basement and ain't no way
out.

Niq (37:22):
He does, but he I don't know.
He does know that and he knewhis battery was limited.
I don't.
He didn't even go upstairs andbang on the door.
He did At the very beginning,yeah, but before the poison took
hold he did for a while,because I'm like I would have
been at the top of the stairsbanging and banging and banging.

(37:42):
Or would have been at the topof the stairs banging and
banging and banging.
Or when his dad called and heasked his dad a direct question
and he lied.
Yes, he lied.
I would have been like well,why am I in the basement with
Janice right now?

Jess (37:55):
Exactly Because you got to at least think that your
parents are going to preserveyou, Right?
Because I'm like you knowthat's my point about the like
no survival skills.
So you have this fullconversation with your dad on
low battery.
You are locked in the basement.
He actually did pick up, so Iam locked in the basement.

Niq (38:13):
Come get me and we, but we can just talk about this Janice
situation get me out thebasement yeah, I don't know.
I thought it was a very crazyway to react to the situation,
you know.
And eventually he puts two andtwo, and three and four together

(38:33):
and he figures out that Janicethinks that he's committed, like
this heinous crime that he hasnot committed and that his
parents are trying to protecthim, and that, and so he ends up
attacking Janice.
And what is crazy is, mind you,I have seen this show before,
but I thought I think when itfirst came out, when he attacked

(38:54):
her, I was like, oh man, janiceis gone.

Jess (38:57):
I forgot me too, and that was the saddest part.

Niq (39:00):
I was like, no, she fought so hard right she was so close,
although so Janice does end upsurviving she does.
But I forgot because I was sodrawn back into the story.
I was so drawn back into thestory and I'm just like every
I'm like rooting for Janice sohard, even though it's like it's

(39:23):
not that the vicar.
Once again, he's a very likablecharacter.
First of all, the fact thatthey casted David Tennant, who
played Doctor who one of themost well-known and likable
characters in this role.
Like you can't help but lovehim, even as he's like like
doing crazy stuff and makingterrible decisions.

(39:44):
It's the like.
I mean, that's Dr who, though,you know, and so it's that that
is funny.

Jess (39:50):
I definitely have better you know higher feelings of him
as Dr who than I do as a vicar.
I'm like I know that means alot to some people but like,
right, but I'm like, but yeah,but it's like, but it's Dr who
right, there were so many littlefunny moments in the show for

(40:10):
the show to be about like suchdrama and so heavy.

Niq (40:15):
It had like these random light moments, like when the
delivery man came to the door ashe's like trying to like he's
got the carbon monoxide going.
And then, like the deliveryguys come to the door as he's
like trying to like he's got thecarbon monoxide going and then,
like the delivery guys come tothe door, try to deliver a
package, he's like, oh, that'snot my address, it's like the
neighbor's house.
The guy's like, oh, are you thevicar?
My mom loves you.
And like he convinces the guyto leave.

(40:36):
And then the guy comes back.
He's like, oh, they're not home, can I leave it with you?
Can you make a video for my mom?
And because the vicar wants tobe well liked, he like as he's
trying to murder someone in thebasement.
He's like doing like a cameohappy birthday message to
somebody's mom and referring andtrying to refer him.

Jess (40:55):
Who asked him to refer himself as the sexy vicar?
Like the whole time I'm justlike I just want him to get
through the sexy vicar line,that's it and I just like, like
I just want him to get throughthe sexy vicar line, that's it.

Niq (41:11):
And I just like, and it's just like.
Those little pops of humor arelike they're definitely needed.
They're definitely needed.
I appreciate it, though, but Ieven okay.
Did you feel like the way thatthe wife died had some humor to
it?
Yes, so they're like, which isfunny, because she had been
trying to it.
Yes, so they're like, which isfunny because she had been
trying to convince him to killJanet.
And she ends up like she goesto Janice's house to try to

(41:32):
plant stuff to make it seem likeJanice was home after her
appointment with them, becauseeveryone who would look at
Janice's schedule be able toknow the last place that she was
was at her tutoring appointmentwith the family.
They're trying to convince youknow, the world, that you know
she was there, but then she left.
So they take her purse and herlaptop the wife does back to her

(41:53):
apartment.
She happens to be there at thesame time that beth, the
journalist, is there trying to,like, look around the house and
figure out what's going on.
So she's trying to get awayfrom Beth, who's asking all of
these questions, and she stepsoff the curb and she gets hit by
a bus and I'm like that.

(42:14):
It was hilarious.
I don't know why.
It was funny in the moment, butit was.
There's something, I guess,maybe ironic about her.
Who's been trying to killJanice this whole time ended up
dying.

Jess (42:24):
By being hit by a bus, the way she was Just being stepped
off a curb.
Yeah, and you not expected itin that moment?
Yeah, I don't know why that wasfunny.
I also like I don't know.

Niq (42:41):
Like at that point, like I'm specifically rooting for
janice because I still have myissues with beth, like, yes,
beth is like helping him, likebecause actually, before she
goes back to england, she helpshim solve another mystery of a
man who disappeared.
And his daughter and his wifecome to the prison and they're
like, oh, he just disappearedand it was so mysterious and we

(43:03):
can't figure it out.
And so she helps him solve that, that mystery, which was where
the wife killed him.
And she's like why would thewife, like, if she knows that
she killed him, why would shelike come to you and ask for
help?
He was like, well, she actuallydidn't.
It was like the daughter.
The daughter was the one whoactually was like asking for

(43:24):
help, she was just along for theride.
But so she actually helps himsolve that murder before going
back to england.
And he sends her back toengland with instructions and
with a private investigator tohelp find janice.
But I'm never at any pointrooting for beth, I'm only
rooting for janice morag.

Jess (43:41):
isag is another killer.
Oh, not killer, she's acriminal.
She breaks into houses.

Niq (43:49):
She does break into houses, but I feel like that's still to
me, makes her a privateinvestigator.
Every time I see a privateinvestigator, I break into
houses.

Jess (43:58):
Private investigating for him.
She's a robber.

Niq (44:04):
Is she just a robber?
Look, I'm going to look now.

Jess (44:12):
I also like.

Niq (44:14):
They just refer to her as an acquaintance.
I don't know.
She didn't give privateinvestigator vibes, she did.

Jess (44:21):
She did Intentionally.
So Again, she manipulatessituations too, because she
presents to Beth as a cop.
Initially he's in a car, he'sgoing to pick you up, and then
she is investigating or helpinghim do the legwork of the stuff
that he can't physically do.
So yeah, she definitelypresents as a PI, but she makes
it very clear that one don't getattached to this man.
He has no moral values.
And two, I am a criminal.

(44:43):
She says several times, I'm ahousebreaker.
So Morag is very clear aboutwho she is.
But yeah, she's doing thisinvestigation, but it's almost
kind of like for fun.

Niq (44:57):
So what was interesting about Morag versus Beth?
Beth says that she's disgustedby Jefferson and she doesn't
like him.
But you very much see theadmiration that she has for him.
When it comes to Morag, eventhough she works with him, you
can very much see the disdainthat she has for him.

(45:17):
She works with him but you cantell she's kind of also grossed
out by the thought of him.
I think that Beth is pretendingthat she's kind of also grossed
out by the thought of him.
You know, and I think that bethis pretending that she's like
no, I see who he really is and I, I know, I, I know he's a
problem, but I don't believe it.
She has like that.
There's this look when shetalks about him and when she's
around him where you could tellshe she is very fascinated and

(45:39):
she's very enamored with him sheis, but they're kind of similar
in that way, her and theprofessor, because it's the same
thing.

Jess (45:46):
Like you guys both chose to center your lives around
crime.
You know what I mean.
You're not criminals, butyou're fascinated with crime and
how they happen, Right, butthen he's now a criminal, but
like he did not, you know, likeI said, he didn't spend most of
his life.
Most of his life he was aprofessor, right, but of
criminology you know.
So same thing.
She's a writer, but she justhas a column, is the word I was

(46:09):
looking for.

Niq (46:10):
Her column is about crime so do you think he's fascinated
with her too?
You think he's fascinated withthe journalist?

Jess (46:18):
yeah, I think so anybody that he can kind of dissect and
kind of figure out, like wheretheir moral standing is, like
that's what I think thatfascinates him.
But Anybody that he can kind ofdissect and kind of figure out
where their moral standing is,that's what I think fascinates
him.
But also that he sees her morethan she sees herself in this
moment.

Niq (46:31):
OK.
So now I have another thing Iwant to talk about.
So when the show first starts,jefferson is very much talking
about how he's on death row andhe deserves it and how he needs
to pay for his crime by dying.
And he says stuff about like Idon't want to die, but I need to
die, I should die.
And then when he gets his deathrow date, he immediately starts

(46:53):
pulling strings so that hedoesn't actually have to die.

Jess (46:58):
But he doesn't.
That's not why he's pulling thestrings.
That's what it seems like, butthink about't.
That's not why he's pulling thestrings.
That's what it seems like, butthink about it he's.
He pulls those strings and hemakes it seem like it's to move
his death row Because he knowsthat the warden wants him to
advocate for himself.
Right, so he gets everybody togo along with it, but really
what he wants is his ex-fatherin law, ex-father-in-law, who is

(47:21):
involved in some kind ofcriminal syndicate to send his
goons to the house to go getJanice.

Niq (47:31):
So you don't think he.
So he never intended to like.

Jess (47:38):
It is all so he can move those chess pieces, but he's
resigned himself.
He does say he doesn't want todie, and I believe he doesn't
want to die, but he's resignedhimself.
He does say he doesn't want todie, and I believe he doesn't
want to die, but he believes hedeserves to die.
So he's resigned himself thathe's going to die.
But this is his last sort ofchip and he's going to use it to
solve this case.
Yeah, because he's still tryingto solve as many cases as he

(47:58):
can before death.
He does not genuinely do thingsthat are going to move back his
death date.
He just makes it seem like hedoes, so he can get his actual
agenda done.

Niq (48:08):
Also, I never understood why the warden felt like he
should try to advocate forhimself.
Like you know, a warden Right.

Jess (48:16):
But I think the warden sees what he does in this and
solving these cases as atonement, like he sees value in him
being around us because hesolves these cases that are
really difficult for otherpeople to solve.
He sees things that peoplecan't see.
He gives people in some caseswhat is it Closure, I guess To
know like what happened to theirfamily and loved ones.

(48:37):
He figures out crimes and thatkind of stuff.
So I think the warden seesvalue in what he does and
doesn't want him to die.
And I think the wardenmisunderstands what he does as
somehow like as atonement, likeas he's getting better morally.

Niq (48:51):
he's not he's just good at it.
Do you think part of the reasonwhy the the warden sees it that
way is because he is a whiteman of similar age and social
stature?

Jess (49:04):
I mean that definitely does like yeah, because he is a
white man of similar age andsocial stature.
I mean that definitely is likeyeah, because he's definitely
not going to try to, even ifDylan Dylan is not rehabbable,
but like he would never do thisfor Dylan if Dylan was the same
person, right?
But I don't think it's justthat.
I do think.
I think he is not a traditionalwarder in the sense of I think
all these criminals are bad,they should rot here forever.
I think that he I think thatthe warden is motivated by he

(49:26):
does see him as redeeminghimself.
You know what I mean?
I think, yeah, I do think hesees him as redeeming himself
and so he's like no, but youactually are doing the work and
you're redeeming yourself, soyou should have a second chance.

Niq (49:39):
I think that the only reason why he feels like he
should have a second chance isbecause he can relate to him.
I feel like if Jefferson waslike an Asian man, I don't think
he would be able to see.
I don't think he would see thesecond.
I just think that he gives himway too much grace, way too much

(50:00):
understanding and way too muchbenefit of the doubt that I just
don't see other people get.
Even if it was a woman, I don'teven know if he would see it
the same way.

Jess (50:14):
I don't think that that's the only reason.
I definitely think that that'sa factor, but I don't think
that's the only reason.
I do think that he sees what hedoes as some sort of atonement
and some evidence of progress,of him getting better.
Now, if he was black, whiteAsian I'm like black, asian or a
woman he wouldn't even look for.
It is what I think.
It is more so than anything.
But if, if, if, if.

(50:36):
If Jefferson was Dylan andstill a white man, then no, I
don't think the warden would.
I think the warden does believein redemption, right for
certain you understand what Imean, right?

Niq (50:48):
But see, because I agree with you that I don't think
Jefferson's character is likesorry for what he did or his
morals and values have changed.
I think he's bored and thosecases fascinate him, but I think
the warden is seeing somethingthat is not there, because it's
very greasy for him to puthimself in those shoes, which is

(51:10):
why I'm like that's the onlyreason.

Jess (51:13):
I do think that the warden Believes in redemption.
I think that he's not just likea punishment only type of
warden.
But Does all those things playa factor?
Because they always do.
I just don't think he wouldlook for it In someone who
wasn't a white man.
But I do think, just don'tthink like he would look for it
in someone who wasn't a whiteman.
But I do think that, like Idon't think like he would just
give a pass to any white man.
I think he sees redemption andI think he sees value in what he

(51:36):
does.

Niq (51:39):
So yeah, I'm just like hmm, what an interesting prison,
what an interesting prison thisis.
You know it is.

Jess (51:49):
But I thought I'm not like you know not that I like or
advocate for the prison system,but I don't think that every
single person in the prisonsystem is like the evil.
You know, like I think thereare some people who do think
like you know you go in thereand try to make a difference and
that they're like.
You know you try to get thepeople who can to redeem
themselves.
I think there are people likethat.

Niq (52:09):
I definitely agree, but I don't know about the head cutter
.
I don't know.
You cut somebody's head off andyou're also saying, oh, there's
context that you're missing,but I'm also not willing to give
you that context.
I don't see it, even though Isee how they made his character

(52:30):
very likable.
Like I said, he's verycharismatic that goes a long way
with people.

Jess (52:37):
It does Right or wrong and I think that is part of what
the show is saying, like thecharisma of both Jefferson and
Dylan go a long way with a lotof people, but they're not
redeemable Right, they're not.

Niq (52:52):
They're not Even like how Dylan talks about how he used
the fact that he was like aBuddhist, like to like game the
system so he couldn't like beexecuted, which I didn't
understand fully because I'mlike you're telling me they
still haven't found like aBuddhist.
That could I?

Jess (53:10):
think they just stopped trying.
I think he's got caught up inthe system and again he's made
himself of use, you know.
So they almost to me like thewarden where he sees all this
redemption, to your point wherehe sees all this redemption and
atonement in Jefferson.
He just kind of uses Dylan as atape recorder, almost like an

(53:32):
object.

Niq (53:33):
He does, yes, and also as a little student that he can
teach about things.
I'm talking about the warden.
Oh yeah, no, no.

Jess (53:43):
I think Jefferson and Dylan have a friendship.

Niq (53:46):
Jefferson's also discussing about a friendship because he
knows Dylan is not redeemable,but at the same time they're
fascinated with each other yeah,but yeah, I agree that the
warden just uses dylan thewarden is like no, he's an
object, he's a glorified taperecorder which is so interesting
, because he's like a black manand he just sees him as an
object, which is, once again,more reason why, just like the

(54:07):
warden character annoys me.
Like I understand without him,like there is no story, because
he allows all the stuff tohappen.
But I'm just like that is veryit.
Just you are on his cell, right.
I'm like this is crazy.
It's very crazy.
But I do like this show becausethey like it makes you think

(54:28):
about morality, be able to havea conversation about morality,
but it's not preachy and there'sa lot of open-endedness.
You know, if there's a lot of,okay, what would I do if I was
this person in the situation?
What would I do if I was thisperson in the situation?
It there's a lot to think aboutand there's a lot.

(54:48):
You know, there's a lot of fatto chew in this show and I like
that and I think that we couldget more.
Sometimes I feel like shows thatwant to like give you questions
and things to think about, theyget like so esoteric they
forget to actually beentertaining.
Like I don't know, have youever seen the show the OA?

(55:09):
No, like I don't know.
Have you ever seen the show theOA.
No, I want to tell you, I'vetried to watch the show so many
times.
Yeah, I can't get through it.
It's just weird for weird sake.
And now maybe you guys, if youguys out there like to see
something different, likeconvince me that I need to watch
it because I can't make itthrough a few episodes.

(55:30):
And so it's like I like when TVtries to be different, I like
when when TV poses questions andyou know, but at the same time
you still have to have a levelof entertainment.
You can't be so liketheoretical or so up in the
clouds that like I'm just like,oh, I don't care.

(55:50):
Right now, the most complicatedshow that I have ever watched
and still currently watching,I'm watching a show with my
husband and it's called dark andit's in it's.
So it's like Germany, like inthe like 80s and the 50s and the

(56:15):
30s and then in the future, andit involves like families that
overlap.
But these characters all lookso similar because, like it's a
small town, town in Germany,there's just not a lot of
diversity.
There's.
There is no diversity andeverybody looks so similar.

(56:37):
It is so hard for me and myhusband to follow and we're like
it's a German show that I hadto go online and like, look at
the online, like family trees,and so the show in itself is

(57:01):
good and the show in itself isentertaining and I don't think
it's meant to be as complicatedas it is.
I think it's complicated for meas I'm an American.
As it is, I think it'scomplicated for me as I'm an
American and so I'm used to morediversity in the way that they
look here Caucasian people.
They still look very different.

(57:23):
It's a huge country we live in.
There's just a huge variety andin this show show, everybody
looks like they could be relatedand it is just so hard.
It's hard to tell the charactersapart and here's the funny
thing like when they do presentday and when they do the 80s,
everything looks the same, likethe clothes, like they're like.

(57:47):
Oh yeah, look that thoseclothes look like they're from
the 80s and I'm like, I feellike they look like what y'all
have on now.
Like it just.
It's just not drastically onceit goes past the 80s, like once
it's like in the 50s and, Ithink, like the 30s, like that.
Okay, yes, it's very clear it'sa different time period, but
the 80s and the present day andthen the future all looks a

(58:11):
little too similar to me.
They're aging up characters andI'm like you as a child, you
couldn't be any of those peopleas an adult.
I don't know, I don't see thecorrelation.
It's a great show.
I just wish I had like okay, sodo you know, like when you

(58:34):
watch football and they havelike a telestrator, they like
they circle and they draw lines.
I would love to watch the showwhile they have that commentary
going over everybody need nametags, young and old, not just,
but it like you need more than aname tag.
You also like 1930s, veronica,because it needs to say, like

(58:58):
right, it needs to say charlotte, daughter of so-and-so, because
it's just like they all stay inthe same town.
So it's like the grandfathermarried this one and then they
had a kid, and then they had akid with their next door
neighbor.
And so I'm going to tell you,because I know you're not going
to ever watch this show, neveram I.
Ever, in present day, a littleboy gets lost.

(59:20):
You find out that he goes backin time and he ends up growing
up in the 80s and fathering, andthen marrying and fathering a
child from the.
That's in the present day.
Like that's what I'm saying,like they're like, oh, this guy,
this little boy, he disappearedand.

(59:41):
But you come to find out likeit's this, this, this guy, like
it is his dad, his dad killshimself, like right at the
beginning of the show, and youfind out that his dad the whole
time has been the little boythat ends up disappearing,
because he went to the 80s andthen grew up and got adopted.
And I'm telling you, this showis wild, it's very I, and I

(01:00:05):
don't say stuff like this often.
I would love a US versionBecause it would be so much
easier for me to follow.
To pull apart yes.

Jess (01:00:19):
I would say for the most part they do a good.
Well, I'll say now, they didnot do such a good part in like
10, 15 years ago, but they do alot better job now of matching
the children to the adults.
When you have to have adepiction of children and adults
Because I watched a few showsrecently I was like, oh no, I
clearly know.

Niq (01:00:37):
I do think they try to do a better job.
But this is just Listen.
You can only do so much whenthere's like three faces in the
town.
You know what I'm saying?
I'm trying tell my hair colorbecause I swear the child
version will have one color hairand then the adult version has

(01:00:57):
a different color hair.
Also, there are certain haircolors I can't tell.
I don't understand when someonesays, oh, that person is
strawberry blonde or dirtyblonde.
I don't know what that is.
I don't know what it is.

Jess (01:01:14):
I don't know the nuances in the hair colors enough like I
need it to be dramatic if wesay 613 or 1B, right, I would
know that better these nuances,I'm not gonna, I Right.

Niq (01:01:29):
I wouldn't know that better .
These nuances I can't pick upon these nuances.
So we had to watch season onetwice and now we're on season
two.
But we have to go so slow.
We have to watch an episode andthen dissect it and then figure
it out, but the show is stillgood.
I like this.
The show is still good.

(01:01:49):
You like this, the show isstill good.
You know, I love sci-fi andit's very trippy.
I don't think that they couldreally it would be hard to like
do a version in the US because,like there's like specific
German history.
I mean, I guess they could justdo.

Jess (01:02:06):
They would do an American version, yeah.

Niq (01:02:10):
Identical anyway.
They could just do.
They would do a americanversion.
Yeah, identical anyway.
Yeah, yeah, like it.
It's interesting, it really is.
It's like the most, it's thehardest like show I've had to
understand.
Because I'm like it's verycommon for me to watch shows
from other countries, you know,and like.
This is the first time whereI've like really struggled to
like follow a storyline and I'msomeone who I honestly prefer,

(01:02:31):
when I watch shows from othercountries, to watch it in the
native language and just readthe subtitles, because the
acting is better.
Sometimes with the voiceoveracting it's not that it's not as
good voiceover acting goes tosoap opera very quickly and so
it's just better for me to seethey hear the people.

(01:02:53):
There's a huge difference whensomeone is acting in their
native language and you justhave to read the subtitles.
For me personally, it's abetter experience.
I prefer that, yeah.

Jess (01:03:05):
It does stick me out sometimes.
That's probably why I can watchstuff in other languages with
subtitles.
I watch stuff in otherlanguages with subtitles.
Well yeah, I can watch it inother languages with subtitles.
Sometimes voiceovers are whatit is.
That kind of takes me out.
I'm like this with audiobookstoo.
If the voice is annoying, I'mout.

Niq (01:03:24):
I told you I had to DNF a book because one of the
narrators was terrible and itwas grinding.
Oh, it was the worst.
It was the worst experience inthe world and I have.
There are certain audiobooksthat I I listened to just
because of the narrator.
Like neil schusterman is one ofmy favorite authors, but the

(01:03:47):
reason, one of the reasons why Ilove his books so much is he
has the best narrator.

Jess (01:03:53):
He's got a good narrator, I will listen to it.
I will listen to whatever you,if you have a nice voice and you
have the right amount of drama,but not too much.

Niq (01:04:04):
I don't know, I think about this book often, not that I
can't remember the name of thebook, but like the first book
was really good, the second bookwas terrible, but it was that.
Now I'm like, did y'all notlisten to that narration before
you released that book?
What was going?
I I I still like it blows mymind.

(01:04:25):
And it was like there's becausethis book is like an on like
there's like six or seven maincharacters, so there's multiple
narrators in this book, so thisis one narrator who's narrating
one person out of all of them.
It was enough for me not tofinish the book.
It was that jarring anduncomfortable and that hard to

(01:04:46):
listen to and I really wish Icould get my money back from
audio.
I wonder if I could ask forfrom Audible.
Can you return an AudibleBecause it was terrible.

Jess (01:04:59):
I've never tried to return Audible, but I want to find out
.

Niq (01:05:01):
Let me know, I'll let you know.
But I know we got kind of offtopic, but we'll fix it in post,
right?
But thank you guys, so much.
So the next episode we're goingto continue our discussion of
Insight man.
We're going to actually kind oftalk more about the plot.
I know we were kind of veryvague about the plot but we're

(01:05:22):
going to get more deep into theplot in the next episode Because
I just feel like there were somany opportunities to fix this
situation and it just seemedlike anytime they were at a
crossroad, they chose the wrong.
They chose yeah.