June 3, 2025 • 59 mins
What happens when you wake up with no memory, surrounded by people telling you who you are? In this riveting analysis of Surface Season 1, we unravel the complex web of deception surrounding Sophie – a woman who emerges from a near-fatal boating "suicide attempt" with complete amnesia, forced to trust the narratives others provide about her life.
Behind the facade of concern, Sophie's husband Nick wields troubling control, monitoring her every move through surveillance cameras and a conservatorship that gives him complete legal authority over her finances and decisions. As Sophie attempts to recover fragments of her past through experimental treatments, she's surrounded by a cast of deeply flawed characters – from Caroline, the "best friend" who secretly pines for Nick, to Harrison, Nick's obsessive friend who actively undermines Sophie, to Thomas, a police officer whose investigation becomes dangerously personal.
The brilliant twist that transforms our understanding of the entire season is the revelation that Sophie is actually Tess Caldwell, a con artist who had meticulously planned to steal $11 million from Nick before her elaborate escape plan went wrong. This discovery forces us to reconsider every relationship and motivation – was Nick truly controlling, or desperately trying to protect himself from a master manipulator? Was Sophie a victim of circumstance, or did she create her own prison?
Surface provokes profound questions about identity, memory, and reinvention. If you don't remember doing something terrible, are you still responsible? Can you truly change if your core nature remains intact despite memory loss? And most importantly, when trapped in a life that doesn't feel right, is running away sometimes the only viable option?
Whether you've already watched Surface or are considering diving in, this episode offers fresh perspectives on the psychological chess match at the heart of this captivating thriller. Join us next time as we explore Season 2 and Sophie's journey back to London, where she confronts her origins and investigates her mother's mysterious death.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Niq (00:01):
Hi guys, welcome to next episode.
I'm your host, nick, and I'mJess, and today we're going to
be discussing Season 1 ofSurface.
So we decided to split Surfaceup into Season 1 and Season 2,
partly because I still haven'tfinished Season 2, but also
(00:22):
because I think that they're twoindividual stories yeah, it
goes.
Yes, season two is verydifferent than season one so I
would like to talk about sophieand her journey in season one,
and I like, I like the show didyou enjoy it oh yeah, I thought
it was good yeah, it was you uh,introduced me to it.
(00:44):
I didn't know about it before,but it brings up a lot of
questions about, like identitytrust loss.
You know, it's like you knowhow people are like, oh, I'm
searching for myself.
She's literally searching forherself.
Jess (01:01):
She is literally searching for herself and, yeah, that's
crazy.
So like the plot of the storyis, this woman kind of wakes up
from amnesia after a boatingaccident and she's basically
relying on her husband and herfriends to tell her who she is
and she's trying to figure outher life, which is a very
(01:22):
vulnerable place to be in.
Niq (01:24):
Well, I think to be more specific, it wasn't just a
boating accident.
She was told that she committed, that she was trying to commit
suicide.
So that's one of the thingslike she's trying to reconcile.
She's trying to figure out,like, is that true?
And if it is true, like whatled me to that?
(01:46):
Because everyone's telling heryour life is so great, your life
is so wonderful, you know.
So she's trying to understandif everything is so great, like,
why would I kill myself?
Right?
And what's interesting is, Ifeel like, growing up as a
lifetime child, I am like primedto not trust the husband
(02:08):
immediately yeah, yeah, Idefinitely from jump was like no
, absolutely not, no this issleeping with the enemy all over
again, and so the like, as youmeet people in her circle.
So she has her husband, Ibelieve his name is Nick Mm-hmm.
She has a best friend namedCaroline Somebody she's told is
(02:31):
her best friend.
Yes, somebody she's told is herbest friend.
Nick has a best friend and hisname is Harrison.
I wrote these down because youknow, how I'm so proud of you
Because I was like I knew youdidn't know that.
No, I did not know, um.
And then later on in the storyshe meets a police officer who
(02:52):
has to reintroduce himselfseveral times, because every
time he introduces himself hetells her another way in which
they are connected.
Like he initially introduceshimself and says that he's
investigating her case and thenshe finds out that that's a lie
or he is, but he's doing it onhis own time.
And then another point like shelearns other things about their
(03:13):
relationship.
But we'll get to there.
So his name is Thomas, his nameis Thomas, and then the last
person in her little world isher therapist, whose name is
Thomas.
And then the last person in herlittle world is her therapist
whose name is Hannah.
So I would like to kind of goone by one and tell you why I
(03:33):
dislike each and every one ofthese people.
Okay, first off, her husband,nick.
The reason why I don't like himis because he is trying to
control her and lock her down.
Like I understand his feelingsin the sense that you think that
(03:54):
your wife just tried to commitsuicide and now she has, like
this, severe memory loss whereshe doesn't have any long-term
memories and so he he is reallyconcerned.
But it comes off as socontrolling and so creepy it
does it absolutely does come offas very controlling.
She's like a bird in a gildedcage, literally.
(04:15):
So she doesn't have a job shedidn't have a job really before
she lost her memory and so shereally just spends her days like
just running and occasionallyvolunteering, but mostly she's
just jogging around the cityLike she doesn't have anything
to do, right?
And I just think that that alsolike feeds her paranoia.
(04:39):
So imagine you've lost yourmemory and you're trying to
figure out what your life is,but you have nothing in your to
figure out what your life is,but you have nothing in your
life.
You know your life is.
Her life is so small it is.
It's very weird.
So that how do you feel abouther husband?
Jess (04:57):
oh yeah, I didn't trust him from the beginning and,
quite honestly, although he didnot turn out to be as bad as I
thought he was, because Ithought he was the worst, like
I'm telling you, I thought hehad.
I thought it as bad as Ithought he was because I thought
he was the worst, I'm going totell you I thought he had.
I thought it was his fault.
I thought he had tried to killher.
I didn't think she really triedto kill herself.
I'm like he is very controlling.
I was scared that he might havebeen abusive, all kinds of
things, but you can find outwhat he was, which was just
(05:20):
controlling, and some of thatwas to protect her from herself.
But still he was still over thetop with it.
I still didn't like him.
Niq (05:29):
I did not either.
Now, neither one of us likedhim once we got all of the
details.
Do you think the show, though,was trying to redeem him?
Like they were trying to makeyou think that he was like a
terrible person, and then, whenyou find out the full story,
you're supposed to be like oh,he wasn't a bad guy after all.
(05:49):
That's what the show was tryingto say.
Jess (05:52):
I think that is what the show was trying to say and.
I'm like I never got that andlike, even to the end of the
season, when she does end upkind of leaving him, I don't
feel bad for him at all.
I don't, I don't either.
I don't feel bad for him at all.
I don't, I don't either.
I don't feel anything for himat all because I'm like that was
not sustainable.
You were trying to control herlife.
I felt like at some point shegets placed in a conservatorship
because she can't take care ofherself and make decisions for
(06:15):
herself, which was true, but atthe point in which we see her in
the show, she should be readyto come out of that.
And it just does not seem likehe's doing anything that's going
to help her get her freedom orto get you know, so he doesn't
have control over everything.
He's spying on her because,like the one thing the
conservatorship is one thing,and I guess that would be
debatable but like you followingher and watching her on every
(06:38):
camera that you can, havingcameras in places that she
doesn't know about you know whatI mean.
That's nothing to do with hersafety.
That's you being controlling.
Niq (06:46):
Plotting with her therapist .
I feel like they were plottingtogether.
Jess (06:49):
I did too.
I didn't trust the therapisteither.
I felt like he was plottingwith the therapist.
I didn't like how she consultedwith him.
Like I know there are rules,like when you have an adult
who's not technically in controlof herself, but I still feel
like the therapist gave him waytoo much information, more than
she had to.
Even with that conservatorshipin place, I did not like the way
(07:10):
he introduced her to Caroline.
Caroline is not her best friend.
Caroline is not her best friend.
He poses Caroline like she is.
Caroline is his friend, hisfriend that he's had for a very
long time.
She becomes friends with thewife as a part of their
relationship.
But he also knows that Carolinais secretly in love with him
and the wife knows honestly.
(07:30):
Even when she had her memoryshe knew that.
So I just feel like, yes, theyhad a friendship and they had a
friendship outside of him.
But when this girl wakes up anddoesn't know who she is and you
tell her, that's her bestfriend that also seems
(07:51):
controlling and manipulative.
Niq (07:53):
It is.
He wanted everyone to aroundher to be loyal to him and so,
like, yeah, I thought that Ifelt like the show was trying to
redeem him, but I'm like he'snot redeemable because what?
What you learn like as she'slearning the truth and you go
through flashbacks is when theymet, she was a waitress and he
was like at the very beginningof his career and it was
(08:25):
actually her that helped himbuild his career up to where it
is her, out of that situationwhere he no longer let her be
involved anymore in creatingthose business deals, which I
thought was very, very shady,because, essentially, she put
anything that she really wantedto do on hold and invested in
him and she believed in him whenno one else did and then he
dropped her and then wanted herto just be like a trophy wife
after she really is the thingthat built his business.
Jess (08:48):
Because, like, essentially she's a con woman and she uses
those skills to get him intothese, like, get him these great
business deals by charming her,charming them, talking him up,
getting people to trust him.
Because he doesn't have thatability he is good at managing
the money.
And then, once he gets to acertain place and he doesn't
need that anymore, he doesn'tneed that level of selling, he
(09:11):
just drops her and then she hasnothing, and that's part of the
reason why I think she's alsodepressed.
She has nothing to do and shewas an integral part of the
business, and he made it veryclear oh, I don't want you to be
part of this anymore.
Niq (09:23):
Right, just sit back.
And it's so condescending Like,oh no, don't worry, you don't
have to worry about that anymore, just sit back and do nothing.
Like if she was a sit back anddo nothing kind of woman, you
wouldn't be where you are today.
No, you would not.
So, yeah, the husband is trash.
The husband is trash andspeaking of Caroline.
(09:44):
So you find out once again inflashbacks that Caroline and the
husband, before he ever metSophie, they hooked up.
I don't think it was arelationship, but I think that
they had like fooled around.
Jess (09:56):
No.
Niq (09:59):
And Caroline did tell her that, and so she knew new, but
at the same time, like one.
I think that that's weird, umthat you still have like this
strong relationship with thiswoman, because it's very clear
that carolyn is in love with him.
But it's not even a question,and so I I really think, first
(10:21):
of all, I would have neverallowed her to be a close friend
of mine, because you, you knowshe's in love with your husband.
But also it's like, how can youtrust her, how can you confide
in her?
Jess (10:32):
Right, well, and that's the thing, is that, like that's
why I feel like it's somanipulative to introduce her?
Because, like, we don't know weknow what Caroline and we know
what the guy says theirrelationship was before we see
glimpses of their friendship,but that doesn't mean that she
still she wasn't friendly withher, but keeping hers at an
arm's distance.
Because when, after she gets,amnesia and her and Caroline go
(10:55):
on vacation together and sheasks Caroline to tell her about
herself, caroline can't, whichtells me that when she had all
her memories she wasn't thatclose to you.
Niq (11:06):
I don't think Sophie is close to anybody, so no one
knows.
I don't either.
Her name is not even Sophie.
Jess (11:13):
No, I don't either, but like when she had control of
herself, so she still.
She was friendly to you becauseshe could see you're important
to him, but she didn't confidein her because she didn't know
anything about her.
Niq (11:26):
But also also remember that .
So you find out like that um,sophie is unfaithful in her
marriage and her husband findsout, and when he finds out he
goes and he sleeps with carolyn.
And so sophie finds out aboutthat before the accident and
they agree to stay together, butthey agree to keep distance
(11:48):
away from Carolyn, so for him to.
What's crazy about that is youknow she was no longer friends
with her.
She hadn't seen her talk to herin months, while you introduced
her as her best friend.
That was a shame, that was ashame because even if they were
friends, at one point, you knowthat they were no longer friends
(12:09):
and you know exactly why.
But I honestly think that hedid that not even for sophie,
but he wanted to keep carolineclose because he needed her.
She was always his backup planbecause she's very wealthy and
you find out that he's in severefinancial debt, like $11
(12:29):
million debt, and so I think hewas keeping Sophie as a backup,
keeping Carolyn close as abackup, because he knew that he
may need to get money from her.
He did end up borrowing $4million from her.
Yeah, who has a friend that canborrow?
Jess (12:43):
$4 million from her.
Yeah, who has a friend?
Niq (12:45):
that can borrow $4 million from.
I need one.
Okay, I need one.
Jess (12:51):
Yeah.
Niq (12:53):
Anyone, anyone.
If you have $4 million that youcan let me borrow, you can be
my friend, and that may soundtrifling, so, and pretty much so
.
Carolyn is also trash, but tome personally, the most trash
(13:19):
person is his best friend,harrison.
Okay, you feel like Harrison isthe most trash person, and I'm
going to tell you why Harrisonis his best friend.
He's married to a man.
That has nothing to do with whyhe's trash.
Now Harrison is in love withNick.
Do they discuss it in the showat all?
They don't.
(13:41):
They do not discuss it in theshow at all, but it is very,
very obvious.
Every time Harrison is around,nick, he's constantly putting
Sophie down.
He's always talking so bad,telling Nick he should leave his
wife, he shouldn't like she'snot good enough for him, he
shouldn't put up with her.
And you know, oh my gosh, she'sgot memory loss.
(14:03):
Why are you sticking around?
Why are you sticking by her?
We also find out Harrison hireda private detective to follow
Sophie.
Now, what we learned throughoutthe show is the private
detective is following Sophieand ends up falling in love with
her and he creates a littlemeetup situation and that is
(14:31):
actually who she ends up havingan affair with.
The police officer she ends uphaving an affair with.
He was working on the side as aprivate detective and he is a
stalker.
He's a stalker.
He comes in and he says that hepretends to be her savior, but
he's really a stalker, he, he,he's a stalker, he.
He comes in and he says thathe's he pretends to be her
savior, but he's really astalker.
And garrison walked that maninto her life.
(14:54):
She would have never, ever.
I don't even know if she wouldhave, like, cheated on her
husband, necessarily, becauseshe wasn't like, really she was
unhappy and she was trying tofigure things out, but I don't
think she was actively reallylooking for someone to date.
I think that was just kind ofhappenstance when she was
(15:15):
already going through something.
She was like a soft target andso that was Harrison.
So you hired this privatedetective who turns out to stalk
the victim and you don't evensay anything.
You never want to admit it toNick.
He is terrible.
He's worse Because even thoughNick, the husband, is very, very
(15:41):
controlling, he does have acertain amount of love for
Sophie.
It's a little bit of anobsession.
Jess (15:48):
It is an obsession.
Niq (15:50):
You know, like when you see something in somebody that you
know you can never have, like hehas that obsession Because I
think Sophie has like this light, that kind of draws people in
and like people get reallyattached to her.
And he doesn't have that.
I think that's why he's kind oflike obsessed with her, because
honestly, at this point I don'tthink that there's anything
(16:12):
that sophie could do where nickwould not be with her.
No, because, like you find outthat she was unfaithful, you
also found out that the $11million he's in debt she stole
from him.
She conned it out of him and heknows that.
And he still is like trying.
(16:33):
He's just trying to make themoney, bring the money back.
He still wants to be with her.
Jess (16:38):
Mm-hmm, it's like a possession thing.
Though he wants to possess, hewants her in in his possession.
That's how he treats her to meyeah, very much.
Niq (16:47):
It's like that.
He's like she's like this rareexotic bird that no one else can
have.
But he puts up with a lot hedoes cause she's not like.
Jess (16:57):
So this is the thing with Harrison like to do, especially
before the amnesia.
He is right, sophie's a badperson and she is dragging him
down.
You know, know what I mean.
I still don't care for Harrisoneither, but he is right about
his concerns about the effectthat Sophie's having on Nick's
life.
He's supposed to be a conartist at first.
He's a bad person he's likebecause, like the way he wills
(17:21):
and does, business is not on theup and up, but he's just one of
those who's just straight up.
He's like I'm shysty, but hetreats Nick like he's this
golden boy that's perfect andthat him and Sophie himself and
Sophie are like the scum of theearth that don't deserve him.
Niq (17:38):
But can I say this Okay, nick would not be where he was
without Sophie.
Is she a con artist?
Yes, she was using her powersfor good until he cut her off,
and so now she doesn't have anyaccess, she doesn't have any
power in the relationship, andso her stealing that money, yes,
(17:59):
it's wrong, but I mean like hewouldn't have even had access to
that level of money if it wasnot for her.
So, although like Harrisonthinks that she's like the worst
, he doesn't understand that shewas like being her best self
with Nick initially, until Nickturned on her, and then she's
like she's a better villain thananybody she is, you know.
Jess (18:24):
So I mean she's better than both of you.
Niq (18:27):
Right.
So I kind of blame that on,like Nick, that she kind of
turned on him, and I wonder ifHarrison's like constant
bad-mouthing of her is one ofthe reasons why Nick started
trying to cut her out of things.
I don't know, would you befriends with someone who's
(18:47):
constantly bad-mouthing yourspouse every time you talk to
them?
No?
Jess (18:52):
no, it's weird, right, it is weird, I don't know.
At that last party, whereSophie is conning and it's at
the point where she reallydoesn't need to con anymore
because he's gotten to such alevel of success, but she's
still doing it, I felt like Isaw jealousy in his eyes, in the
husband's eyes, because of howshe talks to men Not jealous,
(19:16):
but not like that Jealous of herability to do what she does.
Niq (19:20):
I definitely think so.
I think that's part of hisobsession.
Jess (19:23):
Yeah, I think that motivation to kind of turn her,
to shut her down, was because hewas jealous of her and but yeah
, but like, yeah, harrison's badmouth and doesn't help, but he
also dismisses.
He dismisses the stuff he knowsshe does.
Niq (19:40):
Like he also.
So I, nick, understands thatHarrison hates Sophie so much
that when he tells Harrisonabout the money going missing he
never tells her it was Sophie.
He never tells him it wasSophie that took it Because he
know Harrison would immediatelywent to the police.
He would have rolled her over.
He would have rolled yeah.
Immediately so even Nick knows.
(20:01):
Harrison never asked.
Jess (20:03):
Yeah, even Nick knows Harrison is trashed.
Yeah, he knows they don't likeeach other, because when he
realizes that Harrison isresponsible for the death of her
side piece, he doesn't tell her, he lets her think it was him.
Right.
For that same reason he waslike oh no, these two will roll
over on each other in a minute.
Niq (20:18):
Which is very, very weird.
Why are you playing man in themiddle between your best friend
Right, especially when youthey're like it's like he's in
the middle of like this weirdtriangle, like carolyn's in love
with him but he don't reallywant her harrison is in love
with him, but he don't.
He don't want harrison.
(20:38):
Sophie likes him, but he'sobsessed with her like she does,
like she likes Nick.
I don't think she loves him.
Jess (20:48):
I don't either.
I don't know that she has theability to love maybe not, I
don't know.
Niq (20:56):
Like so in the beginning, all of them know I do too.
Oh, I'm still on my everybody.
I hate everybody on the showbut her.
Jess (21:09):
She is not a good person.
She's not, but I still like her.
She's likable.
Niq (21:14):
That's how charming she is so the therapist.
Now, of course, I don't knowthe rules, the way that you know
the rules when it comes totherapy, professionalism, what's
okay to do, what's not to do.
One thing I can't figure out iswe get to watch her therapy
sessions throughout the show.
I don't understand what thetherapist's goal is With the way
(21:37):
she talks to her, the questionsshe asks her.
I don't understand what she'strying to do.
Jess (21:41):
She's trying to get her to accept that she committed
suicide because Sophie is tryingto figure out what really
happened.
She's struggling with acceptingthat and Sophie says a line
that is so good to me, to thetherapist and she was like you
know, the therapist basicallyasked her when are you going to
take accountability for what youdid?
And she was like it's hard totake accountability for
(22:04):
something you don't rememberdoing.
And I'm like that is a reallygood voice.
Niq (22:08):
It makes sense, and so that's what I'm trying to.
That's what I'm saying.
I don't really understand thetherapist, because it's like the
therapist will not consideranything other than she was
trying to commit suicide.
Even if she jumped from the boat, that doesn't necessarily mean
she was trying to kill herselfright and and so for the
therapist to be so rigid andlike forcing her to like agree
(22:31):
to something that we don't evenknow is true, she doesn't know
if she was pushed or not, or shedoesn't know, if she did jump,
what the reason was, and also,if she can't remember anything
that happened before, why doesshe have to like accept that?
I don't understand how.
I don't understand what thatdoes for her.
Jess (22:53):
I think I guess part of it , and I'm not saying I agree
with the therapist in this case,but like I think she was trying
to get her to stop doing someof the more dangerous things,
trying to find out what happened, and like, stop some of the
what appeared to the therapistas erratic or, you know,
sporadic behavior and trying tofinding, trying to find out.
(23:14):
But like to me it was like no,she's just genuinely trying to
put piece together what happened.
But so I think I think shethought if she accepts that this
is what happened, then she'llstop doing all this craziness to
try to figure out and go intothese alternative treatments,
all of which I was like if shewants to go that bad, all you
got to do is tell her what yourconcerns and then you still let
(23:34):
her make the decision.
I'll be like listen, x, y, z,dang, dang, dang, diggity,
diggity down.
Now do what you want to do.
I'm going to be here regardless.
Niq (23:48):
To me her dad should have spent her time helping, trying
to help her move forward Likehow do you like help her create
a new identity and to deal andgrieve with the loss of her
memories and who she was.
You know what I mean it justdidn't seem like that, the
therapist was interested inhelping her become a complete
(24:10):
person again.
Jess (24:11):
Yeah, no, everybody.
And I can't say that I've neverhad a loved one go through this
.
So like I kind of understandthe lay people, but it was
frustrating to watch everybodytrying to force her back to this
person that she was.
And I do think that that's whatwould have happened outside of
the therapist.
I think everybody would try topush you back into who they knew
(24:31):
you who to be.
But I'm like, but it's soobvious, like she's never going
to be that person again.
She's.
You know what I mean.
Like let her figure out who sheis from this point forward
because the gag is she was neverthat person to begin with.
She was pretending that is thefunny part, that's, and that is
why they really don't know her.
It's because she was pretending.
Niq (24:53):
And so to me it seems like, yes, she lost all her memories,
but she has remained her coreself.
She's still a con person, she'sstill a grifter, she still
strategizes, she still canmanipulate, make manipulate
people like right and makepeople just like want to help
(25:14):
her and do for her.
She all of those things, hercore self, it it stayed, it
stayed, and all of the windowdressings that she had put on,
they're all gone, right andthat's the thing is like.
Jess (25:28):
So people, since people really don't know her, because
she really didn't have any closefriends, because she's a con
artist, people are trying to gether to go back to the facade
that they knew the funny thingis even, but she doesn't even
know that, like she can'tunderstand that because she
doesn't remember who she was toknow that the person that they
knew was not real.
Niq (25:47):
So I'm going to tell you my favorite quote that she said
was it's hard not knowing yourown secrets.
Yeah, and I was like damn yeah,right for real, and so as she's
going like as she's going in.
So she I feel like her recoverywas was going pretty good until
(26:13):
thomas, the police officer,showed back up and basically was
like hey, um, I think yourhusband has something to do with
this, I'm investigating thecase and you're not safe.
And then that caused her tostart looking for things.
And you know, when you'relooking for something, you will
find it, because you will twistand manipulate things to to fit
(26:36):
what you already like have goingon.
So she has her husband, who'sbeing very controlling and she
just doesn't fit in with whatthe what they told her her life
was.
And her husband's also nottruthful about a lot of things
Because he's trying to erase allof their past mistakes and
marital issues by lying, theywere not in a good place.
Jess (26:59):
When, of course and he's trying to erase all that and the
fact that he cheated and allthat kind of stuff he kind of
gets a do-over in that way.
I will say this I think thereason why the police officer
showing up was so effective isbecause she already had a sense
that something was off with herhusband.
She just couldn't put herfinger on it.
So, him coming in and givingher, she was like I knew
something was wrong with thisman, I knew something was wrong
(27:20):
with this, you know, and it just, I think it ignited something
that was already there, becauseshe already was lying to him,
because she knew that shecouldn't be you know, even about
basic stuff, because she knewshe couldn't tell him the truth
about you know where she wouldgo, like when the therapist
tells her to go out of town withhim.
And she was like, yeah, shesaid we need time apart.
I was rolling.
Niq (27:39):
I was rolling.
Yeah, she did spin that oneactually really well, because
she set the therapist up.
Oh my gosh, like I've beenhaving the same routine every
day, I just need some fresh air.
Like she really set thetherapist up and she.
What I loved about the scene iswhen she talked to her husband.
She said the things that shesaid the therapist said were
(28:02):
correct.
They were true.
That's, the therapist reallydid say it, but she flipped the
context and I I'm like thatwoman is good, she's good, she
really is good.
She flipped that context reallyto get away from him, which,
though it is crazy that sheshouldn't have had to even lie
to do it.
Jess (28:21):
Yeah, but she knew that she did.
I'm like her instincts thatsomething is off with her
husband was right.
It's just what was off waswrong, Because it's not okay for
your husband to spy on you andhave that much control over you.
Like that's weird.
I don't care that you were in aconservatorship.
Like nobody has a right to belooking at you on cameras all
day.
Niq (28:38):
You know what is so funny to me?
I wonder if, when she woke upfrom her coma, if he would have
just been honest and forthrightwith her, what would have
happened If he would have justbeen honest and forthright with
her?
What would have happened if hewould have been like you know,
I'm so thankful that you werealive.
We were in such a bad place.
But this situation, if theseare the things that I did wrong
(28:59):
and I think maybe I pushed youto to want to do that, and I'm
so sorry and let's work onthings, let's start anew but if
he would have just like, beentransparent and open from the
beginning, I think she wouldn'thave that feeling of mistrust
for him that's true, becausehe's not a good liar, because
part of the reason why she evenstarts, you know, conning for
(29:19):
him is because he's trying to doit and make himself bigger, but
it's not working because he'sbad at it.
Jess (29:24):
So, like it's obvious that you lying and you're not
telling the whole truth, becauseyou're not good at this.
He does lie about stupid stuff.
Niq (29:34):
Like lying about a conference that you say you go
to every year and you don't,when that's such an easy
question like that.
Come on, man.
Jess (29:44):
And she had you not.
She almost got that informationwithout you.
Niq (29:47):
Mm, hmm, like I, just I'm like, sir, you need to always
tell the truth.
Jess (29:54):
you are terrible and that's the other thing it's like
.
So, since you didn't push her,why are you lying about the
conference?
Niq (30:00):
because he, once again, he was trying to pretend like
everything was so great.
He was supposed to be there buthe didn't go.
Yeah, I think he was trying.
I think at that point he knewshe stole the money, I think.
(30:21):
So what we find out is Sophie'sreal name is Tess Caldwell and
she's basically she's a conartist, she's a scammer, and so
her plan was that she was goingto take that 11 million dollars
and she was going to go off andlike live a new life without him
(30:42):
.
And so Nick had found out abouther infidelity and, in turn,
cheated with Carolyn.
But she was like playing a coolhand, like, oh you know, we can
work it out, we can figure itout as she's trying to escape
with the money and the way thatshe convinces him to give the
money is she tells him thatshe's found like a business
opportunity and you know it's.
(31:04):
It's so ground floor that noone can know.
And because she has spent somany like all of this time
hooking him up with like thebest business people and
building his career, like hebelieved it so easily.
Which $11 million?
Like if my husband bought me abusiness opportunity and he
(31:26):
needed a thousand dollars, abusiness opportunity and he
needed $1,000.
There would be so manyquestions like questions upon
questions.
So $11 million and it's noteven your money he took money
from.
He basically embezzled themoney from his company because
(31:46):
they did not know he wasinvesting in this business that
she literally made up.
Jess (31:53):
It was a real business.
Because, like she was masterful, she had him investigate the
real business.
Because even the way she playedhim, because at this point she
knows that he doesn't want herto be as competent as she is.
So she dangles the carrot andthen she's like, oh, but you
know, you know more about thesethings.
Here's the company.
And then she's like, oh, butyou know, you know more about
these things, here's the company.
You take a look, you know, youknow what I mean.
Like I was like this girl isphenomenal.
Niq (32:14):
How did she get the money if the business was real?
Jess (32:17):
The business was real because, like, she was the
intermediary though, so like,whatever accounts that he had to
put it in, like did not go tothe people Because, remember,
that dude was pissed with himthe actual, the guy who actually
had the company I forgot aboutthat that was a real person,
this was a real company.
She just that money never gotthere.
(32:37):
So, like, their investmentactually fell through because
they were waiting on his $11million.
And so when he met that guy inperson, he's like oh, I'm so
happy to meet you.
He's like F you, man, youscrewed me.
That's how he finds out thatshe took the money.
He's thinking that they got themoney and yeah, and then she
didn't create an old account forherself and got that money in
(32:59):
that account so, basically,thomas has convinced her that
her husband has stolen the moneyand that maybe that could be
motive on why he pushed her.
Niq (33:10):
He's also convinced that you know that he pushed her.
And so what's hilarious is that, like they like the two of them
are hardcore investigating thehusband, like go, like she's
disabling the alarm so Thomascan go through the house, she's
recording his conversations likethey are hardcore, like on the
(33:32):
verge of busting the husband.
And then, at the very lastminute, she figures out that it
was her that stole the money.
And what made that scene sohilarious?
So the husband and wife were ata party and Thomas was at their
(33:52):
house, um, like, conducting aninvestigation, trying to get
evidence.
She ends up leaving the partyand nick assumes that she has
gone home.
So he goes home to try to findher and she.
He runs into thomas and heknows that thomas is the one
sleeping with his wife.
The two of them are there.
(34:14):
Neither one of them leave.
They are waiting all night forher to get there and they are
actually standing out in frontof the house when she gets there
, which in and of itself isinsane, is insane.
She comes home, she walks pastThomas.
(34:35):
Like he's not even there.
Jess (34:38):
Like she don't even know him.
Niq (34:39):
She walks past Thomas like he is not even there and like
basically tells Nick, go in thehouse, come on, let's go, and he
does, and he kind of looks atThomas like eh.
And so she goes in there andshe's like, um am I traveling?
(35:01):
was it me the whole time and soat that point, like she kind of
drops Nick and that's when Imean she drops Thomas, and
that's when I mean she dropsThomas, and that's when Thomas
like really goes into full-blownstalker mode and yada, yada,
yada, thomas ends up dead.
But I mean he knew that she wasmarried and he knew she was
(35:24):
married to like a rich, powerfulman.
I don't know why he everthought that she would run away
to be with him.
He is nobody and he has nothing.
And if he was a good privatedetective he would know that she
was a con artist.
He would have figured that out,and then he would have really
known that she would have neverleft him.
(35:46):
So he is either a terrible copNot for him anyway.
Jess (35:51):
Okay, I'm telling you he is either.
It was not for him, anyway he'sokay.
I'm telling you he's a terriblecop.
He's a terrible cop because,like so many times, he abuses
his power.
You know what I mean like to toget whatever he wants.
Like he's one of those like I'mdoing it in the name of the law
, so it's okay, even though allthe stuff you're doing is
illegal, and I'm not talkingabout him being a drug dealer,
but like he's like in gettingother people to do stuff that's
(36:12):
illegal at their job to for thisinvestigation that he's not
supposed to be doing for so allkind of stuff.
Niq (36:18):
So yeah, he's a bad cop I'm gonna tell you, police who feel
like they can do whatever tosolve a case, I call them
detective staplers.
No, he's a total stapler.
Yeah, definitely.
And so I'm like, oh, youactually I don't feel bad for
you, you actually deserve that.
And so Sophie, though, isreally upset because she thinks
(36:44):
that Nick killed the policeofficer, and she's really upset.
But I don't buy it.
I think that because she usesthat when she writes Nick his
dear John letter, she uses thefact that she thinks he killed
the cop as the reason.
I think that she's lying.
Yeah, she just wanted to go,and she's like this will work,
(37:05):
this will work, but she's notgood enough reason.
And he's reading this letterand he's like, if she came back
today, he would take her back.
Like I'm waiting for him tolike pop up on her, because he
is obsessed with her.
He needs to go talk to Hannah.
He needs to talk to thetherapist.
Jess (37:26):
Maybe a different one.
Niq (37:27):
Yeah, yeah, I'm in.
Hannah loves him, though,though maybe she'll give him the
care I don't know.
I just like I don't know.
Jess (37:36):
Everybody seem to fall in love with Nick and Sophie, so
who knows, hannah might be inlove with him too.
Niq (37:40):
Maybe everybody is in love with both of them based on her
haircut, I would have thoughtshe would have been in love with
Sophie, but you never know.
Jess (37:46):
I don't even know that she likes Sophie.
I feel like she don't even knowthat she likes Sophie.
I feel like she don't.
Niq (37:51):
Sophie does irritate her.
Jess (37:55):
They irritate each other.
That's why I'm like at thispoint, why you ain't requested
that?
Because they cannot stand eachother.
And it's beyond just the.
You know, therapists challengeyou sometimes and that does piss
people off and that is part oftheir job to challenge you about
stuff.
But it's beyond that.
They don't like each other.
Niq (38:12):
No she doesn't, it's not productive.
At this point, that's what I'msaying.
She doesn't get anything out ofthose sessions, I don't know.
So here let me ask you aquestion, because I feel very
strongly about this Is thereever a situation where it's okay
(38:33):
to put someone inconservatorship?
Jess (38:37):
Yeah, there are people who absolutely cannot make
decisions for themselves.
Niq (38:47):
It just seems like every time you hear about
conservatorship, somebody isgetting screwed over and I feel
like we need something else.
Jess (38:53):
Well, that's what you hear about.
You don't hear about the onesthat are functioning the way
that they're supposed tofunction, because why would you?
And that doesn't mean that thethat it still doesn't need an
overhaul, but like there areabsolutely adults who cannot and
will never be able to makedecisions for themselves, and it
would be a detriment to themand everybody else for them to
(39:15):
do that.
And those are the cases thathave them.
Niq (39:20):
I think maybe there needs to be like some sort of team,
but where people are independentfrom each other.
But where people areindependent from each other,
because it just seems likeanytime there's a
conservatorship, people worktogether to siphon from that
person and keep them locked up.
And how do we mitigate that?
Jess (39:42):
piece of it?
I don't know, Because ineverything there are going to be
people who take advantage anddo things the wrong way, Like
you know what I mean.
Whenever bad people have power,it's an issue, and so I've seen
it go wrong in all the ways,whether it's a family member in
charge or when it's likesomebody the state has assigned
to be in charge, and if you'vegot a person who is going to
(40:04):
abuse their power in thatposition, they're going to abuse
their power in that position.
I think there needs to be areview process and I'd like you
know, maybe every few years orevery something like that, or a
way that the person who wasunder conservatorship can
request which they're supposedto be, but it just seems so hard
for them to do that Like thatmaybe needs to be able to be
made easier.
But there absolutely are peoplewho do not have the ability to
(40:29):
make decisions for themselves,and if you give those people,
you know, if you allow them to,and especially if they have
access to money, they'resometimes going to make
decisions that are dangerous foreveryone.
You know what I mean.
But again, if it's working likeit's supposed to, you don't
hear about it.
You're going to hear about theanswer or not.
So maybe there needs to be likean independent advocate, yeah,
(40:53):
like someone who is outside ofthe conservatorship, who, like,
meets with the person likemonthly, talks to them and is
like their, their, advocate yeahI mean, there's something
overhaul and there's definitelyin it, and especially in, like,
the higher profile or the caseswhere people because, like,
(41:14):
everybody who's under somethinglike this does not have a lot of
money, and so you don't hearabout it you hear about the ones
where people have an insaneamount of money, you know.
So, like, yeah, like, those arethe ones that you hear about,
and those are the people who,yeah, those are the ones that
you hear about, and those arethe people who, well, they're
not the only ones who get takenadvantage of.
I think they get takenadvantage of in different ways.
No-transcript, so you at leastknow are familiar with what
(41:52):
those person's limitations are.
You know what I mean, becausethey're, they're just there's a
lot of, there's a lot ofpotential issues with this.
So, yeah, and someone that theycan reach out to if they're
being abused, if they're beingharmed, if they're ready to, are
like Sophie's, which shouldhave always been temporary,
cause she was going to get backto the point where she could
care for herself.
Whether or not she gets hermemories back doesn't matter.
(42:12):
She's a functional adult atthis point.
You know what I mean.
I'm guessing that there wassome point where she really
couldn't, either, make decisionsfor herself.
She was just that unclear towhere he had to do that and he
was able to do that.
But it should have always beentemporary for her because she
was definitely going to get backto the point where she could
(42:33):
make decisions for herself, andto me she's at that point when
we meet her.
Niq (42:39):
So what's weird is he's like oh you know, it's so hard,
you have to get lawyers involvedand all of this to take it
apart.
Was it easy to put it together?
Jess (42:47):
Yeah, so what?
Let's get all of them.
And that bothers me more thananything.
That bothers me with him, ofcourse, but he's self-controlled
, of course he's not going torelease it and he is using this
to completely control every bitof her life and to keep her with
him.
So I'm like, but to me, thetherapist, that's one thing that
she could have startedadvocating for, because part of
(43:09):
this is you evaluating that thisperson is now able to care for
themselves and make decisionsfor themselves.
So I'm like why wouldn't youtell your client okay, you might
want to consider starting tofile paperwork to get out of
this conservatorship, because atthis point, you may not have
all your memories back, but youcan function as an adult.
You can make decisions foryourself.
Niq (43:26):
You're not a danger to yourself at this point when she
said she wanted to like buy somedresses, and he's like oh, I
can take you shopping, like thatwas so I was so pissed.
Jess (43:36):
I was like, oh no, no, you want to control every aspect of
this woman's life.
Niq (43:40):
No but yeah, because he could have easily just given her
a credit card and said here yougo or the money or anything,
but no, he wants to know whereshe is at all points in time.
Jess (43:51):
He's constantly spying on her.
Yeah, it's a problem, it's awhole problem it is.
And because her relationshipwith her therapist is so bad she
doesn't trust her enough toeven tell her any of that stuff.
Niq (44:05):
Right, I agree, her relationship with her therapist
is like I hate it.
Jess (44:13):
Okay, so this is Right.
I agree.
Her relationship with hertherapist is like this is
something that they said andthen it kind of to me they never
fully went back and explained.
You may not Even season two.
I question this, but I don'twant to reveal anything.
At some point they tell herthat her mother was
schizophrenic, basically.
Niq (44:26):
Oh, okay.
Jess (44:26):
So I've seen.
Niq (44:32):
I've seen, I think, episode one and part of episode two, so
I know like her mom.
Jess (44:38):
She thinks that her mom was like murdered or something
yeah, she does think that hermom is murdered, but I also
don't think that her mom isschizophrenic so, but didn't
Hannah tell her that in seasonone that she had a history of
mental illness or something shedid?
Based on the fact that her momwas schizophrenic, which I think
.
She got that information fromthe husband, which I think is
(45:01):
inaccurate.
You think he just made it up.
Niq (45:04):
Yeah, I mean.
Jess (45:11):
When she eventually does start to you know, she alludes
to the fact that she's nottrusting James, and then, to me,
hannah writes it off as oh, youpossibly got paranoia and these
treatments that you got thatyou're not supposed to get,
could lead to paranoia andpsychosis, which also I'm like
okay, whatever, but Hannah isbasing that on a history that I
think that James told her, whichI think is a lie, nick.
Niq (45:34):
Nick or James.
His name is Nick Nick.
Okay, I don't know.
Jess (45:38):
I think you made James up, okay girl, I'm going to call
that man James.
Niq (45:42):
He's like a James to me, okay.
So what would you do if youwere in Sophie's shoes, where
you essentially have lost yourmemories and, as you pieced it
together, you found out that youwere actually like a terrible
person?
How do you move on from that?
Jess (46:04):
girl.
I honestly would have probablyhandled the way she handled it,
like as in I'm out this piece.
He's never going to leave heralone.
Her husband is controlled.
First of all, the first thing Iwould have done was get out
that conservatorship like fromthe point.
That I would have done was getout that conservatorship Like
(46:25):
from the point that I understandthat I'm in one.
I am advocating on all levelsto get out of that
conservatorship With mytherapist and if you won't help
me, I'm getting a new therapist.
If you won't help me, I'm goingto the press.
I'm going to do everything,because at this point nobody can
substantiate that I cannot makedecisions for myself and I
cannot have access to my ownmoney.
So that's one Step, one, I'mgetting out the conservatorship.
If I cannot get out thatconservatorship, then I'm
handling it just the way shehandled it.
Niq (46:46):
Because it's like do you really need to get out the
conservatorship when it's basedon somebody who you actually are
not?
Jess (47:00):
Like on somebody who you actually are not, like she's not
really, that's true.
Like if I was playing on,that's true, that's true, that's
true.
So either way, like, but likeI'm getting away from that man,
I'm getting away from that man,that man, if he's not abusive
now, he he going to because,like, once he realized he can't
control every aspect of yourlife, it ain't got nowhere else
to go yeah, I just think that,like if I found out that I was
like a terrible person, I wouldwant to just leave and start
over, start fresh and figure outokay, yes, I used to be a
(47:21):
terrible person, but let mestart my life over.
Niq (47:23):
And let's see who I am now I mean I mean I still may be
maybe, but let me just see, I Ijust don't see, I don't see how
I could like stay in thatsituation because honestly, like
watching the show, I felt likeI was suffocating a little bit
at times.
Yeah, it was very like she wasso isolated.
Jess (47:47):
Yeah, he suffocated, and that's part of the problem too.
Like I said, the therapistseems like she's listening to
the husband more than she'slistening to her own client.
All the people that you've beentold your friends are not your
friends.
They're your husband's friends.
You don't have anybody, so one.
She might even have to make anew friend and establish a
relationship so that she justhas somebody else that can also
help advocate for her, becauseall of your connections are his
(48:10):
connections.
Right, or do what she did,which is fake her own death and
take your behind back to london.
Niq (48:19):
Faking your own death is wildly dramatic, especially like
stealing 11 million dollarsfrom your husband and then
faking your death like I justfeel like maybe there was
another way to solve herproblems.
Jess (48:33):
I wasn't mad at none of it .
I really wasn't.
Niq (48:36):
It's obvious, though, that she's a runner, Because one of
the things you find out abouther as she does get some
memories from going to like whatwas that thing, what was this?
Was it hypnosis?
Jess (48:48):
What was that?
No, it was even moreexperimental than that, because
I'm like I don't think thetherapist the therapist wouldn't
have had an issue with hypnosis.
It was something crazy.
Niq (48:57):
I can't remember.
She went to hypnosis first andthen she went up to the next
place.
Jess (49:02):
Then she went to biofeedback, but neither the
hypnosis nor the biofeedbackwere places that upset the
therapist.
It was that other experimentaltreatment that I cannot remember
what the heck they were doingto her.
Was it the sensory deprivation?
I don't know.
They started with sensorydeprivation and they did
something else.
Niq (49:18):
Because I honestly thought that she was just wasting her
money.
Jess (49:22):
I ain't never heard of it, but it helped.
More memories come back.
Niq (49:27):
It did, and so one of the memories that she found out was
that she liked to ride horsesand also that she likes to kiss
girls, which I thought washilarious, because I'm like
that's why you don't really likenick for real, not even your
type, so I'm just like she needsto like, like run, and but you
(49:49):
also find I think she also findsout that she runs from
situations when things get hairy.
Jess (49:56):
Yeah, but I just don't feel like.
I feel like Nick was going tofight her on that
conservatorship.
You know, and since you don'thave any money, you don't have
any friends or you don't haveany family, it is really hard to
advocate for yourself in thatsituation.
Niq (50:11):
Mm-hmm yeah, I agree, I mean, I think running was her
best option.
Mm-hmm yeah, I agree, I mean, Ithink running was her best
option.
Jess (50:18):
Yeah, I guess you could have played.
That was the advocate got onHannah's good side and it slowly
turned her against James andgot her to start advocating for
you.
But that's a long time.
Niq (50:33):
She really can't.
No, I think it would be easierto convince Thomas before he was
dead that Nick tried to beather up, and then Thomas would
have killed him.
Jess (50:47):
Or had him arrested or something like that.
You know what?
Thomas would have been her onlyadvocate, but then she stuck
with Thomas and it's like you'rejumping from, but she's not
legally bound to Thomas, so thatstill would have been a better
like.
Okay, let's say, if you'regoing to stay in your own life
and stay in this identity,thomas is the best advocate.
You get him arrested, get himout of the situation, because,
(51:09):
also, nobody knows necessarilythat you stole the 11 million
dollars and unless they foundthat account with her name on it
which might have come out inthe investigation but you know
what I mean she could have gothim to go to jail, got the house
, got everything.
Niq (51:24):
Actually, yeah, thomas is her best advocate but the
problem is he's going to want tomove into that house he is.
Jess (51:30):
he is going to want to move into the house.
The thing is, you get out ofthat conservatorship, because
once he gets arrested, he can nolonger be a conservator.
You get out of thatconservatorship.
You get your husband away,locked up.
I don't care if he stay lockedup or not, you get out.
You are not legally bound toThomas.
The thing is that you nevermarry Thomas.
You can never marry Thomasbecause when you're ready to,
when you're done, when you beable to move, right, but that's
(51:53):
her only advocate.
Niq (51:57):
Rough lady.
Jess (51:59):
Yes, I mean like none of the choices were great and all
of them involved her continuingto con.
Niq (52:04):
This show had me stressed, because I'm like all of the
information was pointing thateverybody was out to get her.
Everybody was lying to her,which, yes, everybody was lying.
Everybody was lying to getlying to her, but really she was
(52:25):
out to get everybody else andto get her freedom.
She was moving these peoplearound like chess pieces, right,
you know?
Jess (52:34):
Which brings me to my question Do you think she really
tried to kill herself?
Niq (52:40):
No, no, I don't either.
I thought that they explainedwhy she did it.
Jess (52:49):
My assumption was I think she was trying to fake her own
death the first time.
I think it was something aboutthere was an island she was
trying to fake her own death.
Niq (52:54):
The first time too, I think it was something about.
Jess (52:56):
There was an island she was trying to get to okay, and
then she jumped too soon or atthe wrong point yeah.
Niq (53:06):
I don't know like I felt like she she wasn't trying to
kill herself when she jumped.
I didn't fully understand whyshe needed to jump because I
mean I think like you can jumpoff like a small boat and be
okay, but like when you jump offlike big ships, like cruise
ships and ferries, I think likethe force that you hit the water
(53:28):
, it messes your body up.
So I don't think she really waslike thinking it through.
Jess (53:34):
Well, I think she didn't count for the propeller, because
what happened was I think shewas trying to fake her own death
that time and get away with the11 million dollars, but what
happened, what you see is likethe propeller like sucks her in
and then she ends up hitting herhead on the propeller and
that's why she lost her memory.
So I think she was trying tofake her death the first time
and didn't jump off at the rightspot and didn't account for the
(53:56):
propeller at the bottom of theship pulling her in.
Niq (54:02):
I just think that jumping off of a ferry without doing a
hell of a lot of research iscrazy.
It's crazy because also thewater seemed a little rocky.
It just did not, it was.
It's crazy Because also thewater seemed a little rocky.
Jess (54:17):
It just did not.
It was, yeah, Both choppy andtheir little chunks of rock in
it Like, yeah, no, this was nota good plan.
I get why you had to.
And because James is soobsessed Nick, that man's name
is Nick is so obsessed that hewouldn't have stopped looking
(54:37):
for her if he didn't think shewas dead.
Niq (54:39):
The way I would have cut myself and just put a whole
bunch of blood because it wasone of those fairies you drove
into, right, or did she?
I would have had blood all inmy car.
Some of my hair I would havemade had blood like all in my
car, or like some of my hairlike I would have made it seem
like somebody like chopped me upin little pieces, like I think
(55:02):
I would have waited till likethe boat docked before I jumped
or something.
I don't know she, just her planwas not that good.
You know what?
It reminds me of um and One ofour, the first show that we
reviewed, kevin can F himself,when the lady Faked her death by
(55:22):
just like leaving her Backpackin the woods.
She had like all of these Likecrazy, like I'm gonna, you know,
I'm gonna Like be in his carand I'm gonna set the car on
fire and I'm just gonna leavelike a tooth in there.
Like you know, it's like crazy,like not well thought out death
faking, you know.
(55:42):
So, even though she's a conartist, she needs to tighten up
her game a little bit or just onher faking her death right yeah
, yeah, the way she manipulatespeople, she does good.
Jess (55:56):
Her fake and her death Right.
Yeah, yeah, the way shemanipulates people, she does
good.
Niq (56:00):
So, yes, so I'm excited to watch season two To see what it
entails, but I'm just based onthe episode and a half that I've
seen.
It's not at this point.
It is not connected to seasonone because she's kind of going
in her past to try to figure outwho she was and you know, she's
(56:24):
trying to reconnect with herold girlfriend, she's trying to
investigate her mom's death, allof these things Like.
If Nick pops up, I won't beshocked because he is crazy.
Jess (56:36):
Yeah.
Niq (56:37):
But it's not about him.
Jess (56:40):
But I see that as the connection between season one,
season two.
I do like that they are sodifferent.
I wasn't expecting that, butthey are so different.
But it is still her trying tofigure out who she is Right and
so, since she's originally fromLondon, she's back in London.
Niq (56:57):
So, yeah, I can't wait for us to have that conversation.
Jess (57:01):
Oh yeah, yeah, I can't wait for you to watch it.
I think you're going to enjoyit, yeah.
Niq (57:05):
Guys, I hope you really enjoyed this episode.
If you guys have checked outseason one of Surface, let us
know your takeaways in thecomments.
We're always curious to know ifthe things that you think about
the show line up to the thingsthat we say.
Feel free.
If you completely disagree withus, let us know in the comments
(57:26):
.
We want to know.
We'll see you next time, guys.
Bye.
Hi guys, welcome to next episode.
I'm your host, nick, and I'mJess, and today we're going to
be discussing Season 1 ofSurface.
So we decided to split Surfaceup into Season 1 and Season 2,
partly because I still haven'tfinished Season 2, but also
(00:22):
because I think that they're twoindividual stories yeah, it
goes.
Yes, season two is verydifferent than season one so I
would like to talk about sophieand her journey in season one,
and I like, I like the show didyou enjoy it oh yeah, I thought
it was good yeah, it was you uh,introduced me to it.
(00:44):
I didn't know about it before,but it brings up a lot of
questions about, like identitytrust loss.
You know, it's like you knowhow people are like, oh, I'm
searching for myself.
She's literally searching forherself.
Jess (01:01):
She is literally searching for herself and, yeah, that's
crazy.
So like the plot of the storyis, this woman kind of wakes up
from amnesia after a boatingaccident and she's basically
relying on her husband and herfriends to tell her who she is
and she's trying to figure outher life, which is a very
(01:22):
vulnerable place to be in.
Niq (01:24):
Well, I think to be more specific, it wasn't just a
boating accident.
She was told that she committed, that she was trying to commit
suicide.
So that's one of the thingslike she's trying to reconcile.
She's trying to figure out,like, is that true?
And if it is true, like whatled me to that?
(01:46):
Because everyone's telling heryour life is so great, your life
is so wonderful, you know.
So she's trying to understandif everything is so great, like,
why would I kill myself?
Right?
And what's interesting is, Ifeel like, growing up as a
lifetime child, I am like primedto not trust the husband
(02:08):
immediately yeah, yeah, Idefinitely from jump was like no
, absolutely not, no this issleeping with the enemy all over
again, and so the like, as youmeet people in her circle.
So she has her husband, Ibelieve his name is Nick Mm-hmm.
She has a best friend namedCaroline Somebody she's told is
(02:31):
her best friend.
Yes, somebody she's told is herbest friend.
Nick has a best friend and hisname is Harrison.
I wrote these down because youknow, how I'm so proud of you
Because I was like I knew youdidn't know that.
No, I did not know, um.
And then later on in the storyshe meets a police officer who
(02:52):
has to reintroduce himselfseveral times, because every
time he introduces himself hetells her another way in which
they are connected.
Like he initially introduceshimself and says that he's
investigating her case and thenshe finds out that that's a lie
or he is, but he's doing it onhis own time.
And then another point like shelearns other things about their
(03:13):
relationship.
But we'll get to there.
So his name is Thomas, his nameis Thomas, and then the last
person in her little world isher therapist, whose name is
Thomas.
And then the last person in herlittle world is her therapist
whose name is Hannah.
So I would like to kind of goone by one and tell you why I
(03:33):
dislike each and every one ofthese people.
Okay, first off, her husband,nick.
The reason why I don't like himis because he is trying to
control her and lock her down.
Like I understand his feelingsin the sense that you think that
(03:54):
your wife just tried to commitsuicide and now she has, like
this, severe memory loss whereshe doesn't have any long-term
memories and so he he is reallyconcerned.
But it comes off as socontrolling and so creepy it
does it absolutely does come offas very controlling.
She's like a bird in a gildedcage, literally.
(04:15):
So she doesn't have a job shedidn't have a job really before
she lost her memory and so shereally just spends her days like
just running and occasionallyvolunteering, but mostly she's
just jogging around the cityLike she doesn't have anything
to do, right?
And I just think that that alsolike feeds her paranoia.
(04:39):
So imagine you've lost yourmemory and you're trying to
figure out what your life is,but you have nothing in your to
figure out what your life is,but you have nothing in your
life.
You know your life is.
Her life is so small it is.
It's very weird.
So that how do you feel abouther husband?
Jess (04:57):
oh yeah, I didn't trust him from the beginning and,
quite honestly, although he didnot turn out to be as bad as I
thought he was, because Ithought he was the worst, like
I'm telling you, I thought hehad.
I thought it as bad as Ithought he was because I thought
he was the worst, I'm going totell you I thought he had.
I thought it was his fault.
I thought he had tried to killher.
I didn't think she really triedto kill herself.
I'm like he is very controlling.
I was scared that he might havebeen abusive, all kinds of
things, but you can find outwhat he was, which was just
(05:20):
controlling, and some of thatwas to protect her from herself.
But still he was still over thetop with it.
I still didn't like him.
Niq (05:29):
I did not either.
Now, neither one of us likedhim once we got all of the
details.
Do you think the show, though,was trying to redeem him?
Like they were trying to makeyou think that he was like a
terrible person, and then, whenyou find out the full story,
you're supposed to be like oh,he wasn't a bad guy after all.
(05:49):
That's what the show was tryingto say.
Jess (05:52):
I think that is what the show was trying to say and.
I'm like I never got that andlike, even to the end of the
season, when she does end upkind of leaving him, I don't
feel bad for him at all.
I don't, I don't either.
I don't feel bad for him at all.
I don't, I don't either.
I don't feel anything for himat all because I'm like that was
not sustainable.
You were trying to control herlife.
I felt like at some point shegets placed in a conservatorship
because she can't take care ofherself and make decisions for
(06:15):
herself, which was true, but atthe point in which we see her in
the show, she should be readyto come out of that.
And it just does not seem likehe's doing anything that's going
to help her get her freedom orto get you know, so he doesn't
have control over everything.
He's spying on her because,like the one thing the
conservatorship is one thing,and I guess that would be
debatable but like you followingher and watching her on every
(06:38):
camera that you can, havingcameras in places that she
doesn't know about you know whatI mean.
That's nothing to do with hersafety.
That's you being controlling.
Niq (06:46):
Plotting with her therapist .
I feel like they were plottingtogether.
Jess (06:49):
I did too.
I didn't trust the therapisteither.
I felt like he was plottingwith the therapist.
I didn't like how she consultedwith him.
Like I know there are rules,like when you have an adult
who's not technically in controlof herself, but I still feel
like the therapist gave him waytoo much information, more than
she had to.
Even with that conservatorshipin place, I did not like the way
(07:10):
he introduced her to Caroline.
Caroline is not her best friend.
Caroline is not her best friend.
He poses Caroline like she is.
Caroline is his friend, hisfriend that he's had for a very
long time.
She becomes friends with thewife as a part of their
relationship.
But he also knows that Carolinais secretly in love with him
and the wife knows honestly.
(07:30):
Even when she had her memoryshe knew that.
So I just feel like, yes, theyhad a friendship and they had a
friendship outside of him.
But when this girl wakes up anddoesn't know who she is and you
tell her, that's her bestfriend that also seems
(07:51):
controlling and manipulative.
Niq (07:53):
It is.
He wanted everyone to aroundher to be loyal to him and so,
like, yeah, I thought that Ifelt like the show was trying to
redeem him, but I'm like he'snot redeemable because what?
What you learn like as she'slearning the truth and you go
through flashbacks is when theymet, she was a waitress and he
was like at the very beginningof his career and it was
(08:25):
actually her that helped himbuild his career up to where it
is her, out of that situationwhere he no longer let her be
involved anymore in creatingthose business deals, which I
thought was very, very shady,because, essentially, she put
anything that she really wantedto do on hold and invested in
him and she believed in him whenno one else did and then he
dropped her and then wanted herto just be like a trophy wife
after she really is the thingthat built his business.
Jess (08:48):
Because, like, essentially she's a con woman and she uses
those skills to get him intothese, like, get him these great
business deals by charming her,charming them, talking him up,
getting people to trust him.
Because he doesn't have thatability he is good at managing
the money.
And then, once he gets to acertain place and he doesn't
need that anymore, he doesn'tneed that level of selling, he
(09:11):
just drops her and then she hasnothing, and that's part of the
reason why I think she's alsodepressed.
She has nothing to do and shewas an integral part of the
business, and he made it veryclear oh, I don't want you to be
part of this anymore.
Niq (09:23):
Right, just sit back.
And it's so condescending Like,oh no, don't worry, you don't
have to worry about that anymore, just sit back and do nothing.
Like if she was a sit back anddo nothing kind of woman, you
wouldn't be where you are today.
No, you would not.
So, yeah, the husband is trash.
The husband is trash andspeaking of Caroline.
(09:44):
So you find out once again inflashbacks that Caroline and the
husband, before he ever metSophie, they hooked up.
I don't think it was arelationship, but I think that
they had like fooled around.
Jess (09:56):
No.
Niq (09:59):
And Caroline did tell her that, and so she knew new, but
at the same time, like one.
I think that that's weird, umthat you still have like this
strong relationship with thiswoman, because it's very clear
that carolyn is in love with him.
But it's not even a question,and so I I really think, first
(10:21):
of all, I would have neverallowed her to be a close friend
of mine, because you, you knowshe's in love with your husband.
But also it's like, how can youtrust her, how can you confide
in her?
Jess (10:32):
Right, well, and that's the thing, is that, like that's
why I feel like it's somanipulative to introduce her?
Because, like, we don't know weknow what Caroline and we know
what the guy says theirrelationship was before we see
glimpses of their friendship,but that doesn't mean that she
still she wasn't friendly withher, but keeping hers at an
arm's distance.
Because when, after she gets,amnesia and her and Caroline go
(10:55):
on vacation together and sheasks Caroline to tell her about
herself, caroline can't, whichtells me that when she had all
her memories she wasn't thatclose to you.
Niq (11:06):
I don't think Sophie is close to anybody, so no one
knows.
I don't either.
Her name is not even Sophie.
Jess (11:13):
No, I don't either, but like when she had control of
herself, so she still.
She was friendly to you becauseshe could see you're important
to him, but she didn't confidein her because she didn't know
anything about her.
Niq (11:26):
But also also remember that .
So you find out like that um,sophie is unfaithful in her
marriage and her husband findsout, and when he finds out he
goes and he sleeps with carolyn.
And so sophie finds out aboutthat before the accident and
they agree to stay together, butthey agree to keep distance
(11:48):
away from Carolyn, so for him to.
What's crazy about that is youknow she was no longer friends
with her.
She hadn't seen her talk to herin months, while you introduced
her as her best friend.
That was a shame, that was ashame because even if they were
friends, at one point, you knowthat they were no longer friends
(12:09):
and you know exactly why.
But I honestly think that hedid that not even for sophie,
but he wanted to keep carolineclose because he needed her.
She was always his backup planbecause she's very wealthy and
you find out that he's in severefinancial debt, like $11
(12:29):
million debt, and so I think hewas keeping Sophie as a backup,
keeping Carolyn close as abackup, because he knew that he
may need to get money from her.
He did end up borrowing $4million from her.
Yeah, who has a friend that canborrow?
Jess (12:43):
$4 million from her.
Yeah, who has a friend?
Niq (12:45):
that can borrow $4 million from.
I need one.
Okay, I need one.
Jess (12:51):
Yeah.
Niq (12:53):
Anyone, anyone.
If you have $4 million that youcan let me borrow, you can be
my friend, and that may soundtrifling, so, and pretty much so
.
Carolyn is also trash, but tome personally, the most trash
(13:19):
person is his best friend,harrison.
Okay, you feel like Harrison isthe most trash person, and I'm
going to tell you why Harrisonis his best friend.
He's married to a man.
That has nothing to do with whyhe's trash.
Now Harrison is in love withNick.
Do they discuss it in the showat all?
They don't.
(13:41):
They do not discuss it in theshow at all, but it is very,
very obvious.
Every time Harrison is around,nick, he's constantly putting
Sophie down.
He's always talking so bad,telling Nick he should leave his
wife, he shouldn't like she'snot good enough for him, he
shouldn't put up with her.
And you know, oh my gosh, she'sgot memory loss.
(14:03):
Why are you sticking around?
Why are you sticking by her?
We also find out Harrison hireda private detective to follow
Sophie.
Now, what we learned throughoutthe show is the private
detective is following Sophieand ends up falling in love with
her and he creates a littlemeetup situation and that is
(14:31):
actually who she ends up havingan affair with.
The police officer she ends uphaving an affair with.
He was working on the side as aprivate detective and he is a
stalker.
He's a stalker.
He comes in and he says that hepretends to be her savior, but
he's really a stalker, he, he,he's a stalker, he.
He comes in and he says thathe's he pretends to be her
savior, but he's really astalker.
And garrison walked that maninto her life.
(14:54):
She would have never, ever.
I don't even know if she wouldhave, like, cheated on her
husband, necessarily, becauseshe wasn't like, really she was
unhappy and she was trying tofigure things out, but I don't
think she was actively reallylooking for someone to date.
I think that was just kind ofhappenstance when she was
(15:15):
already going through something.
She was like a soft target andso that was Harrison.
So you hired this privatedetective who turns out to stalk
the victim and you don't evensay anything.
You never want to admit it toNick.
He is terrible.
He's worse Because even thoughNick, the husband, is very, very
(15:41):
controlling, he does have acertain amount of love for
Sophie.
It's a little bit of anobsession.
Jess (15:48):
It is an obsession.
Niq (15:50):
You know, like when you see something in somebody that you
know you can never have, like hehas that obsession Because I
think Sophie has like this light, that kind of draws people in
and like people get reallyattached to her.
And he doesn't have that.
I think that's why he's kind oflike obsessed with her, because
honestly, at this point I don'tthink that there's anything
(16:12):
that sophie could do where nickwould not be with her.
No, because, like you find outthat she was unfaithful, you
also found out that the $11million he's in debt she stole
from him.
She conned it out of him and heknows that.
And he still is like trying.
(16:33):
He's just trying to make themoney, bring the money back.
He still wants to be with her.
Jess (16:38):
Mm-hmm, it's like a possession thing.
Though he wants to possess, hewants her in in his possession.
That's how he treats her to meyeah, very much.
Niq (16:47):
It's like that.
He's like she's like this rareexotic bird that no one else can
have.
But he puts up with a lot hedoes cause she's not like.
Jess (16:57):
So this is the thing with Harrison like to do, especially
before the amnesia.
He is right, sophie's a badperson and she is dragging him
down.
You know, know what I mean.
I still don't care for Harrisoneither, but he is right about
his concerns about the effectthat Sophie's having on Nick's
life.
He's supposed to be a conartist at first.
He's a bad person he's likebecause, like the way he wills
(17:21):
and does, business is not on theup and up, but he's just one of
those who's just straight up.
He's like I'm shysty, but hetreats Nick like he's this
golden boy that's perfect andthat him and Sophie himself and
Sophie are like the scum of theearth that don't deserve him.
Niq (17:38):
But can I say this Okay, nick would not be where he was
without Sophie.
Is she a con artist?
Yes, she was using her powersfor good until he cut her off,
and so now she doesn't have anyaccess, she doesn't have any
power in the relationship, andso her stealing that money, yes,
(17:59):
it's wrong, but I mean like hewouldn't have even had access to
that level of money if it wasnot for her.
So, although like Harrisonthinks that she's like the worst
, he doesn't understand that shewas like being her best self
with Nick initially, until Nickturned on her, and then she's
like she's a better villain thananybody she is, you know.
Jess (18:24):
So I mean she's better than both of you.
Niq (18:27):
Right.
So I kind of blame that on,like Nick, that she kind of
turned on him, and I wonder ifHarrison's like constant
bad-mouthing of her is one ofthe reasons why Nick started
trying to cut her out of things.
I don't know, would you befriends with someone who's
(18:47):
constantly bad-mouthing yourspouse every time you talk to
them?
No?
Jess (18:52):
no, it's weird, right, it is weird, I don't know.
At that last party, whereSophie is conning and it's at
the point where she reallydoesn't need to con anymore
because he's gotten to such alevel of success, but she's
still doing it, I felt like Isaw jealousy in his eyes, in the
husband's eyes, because of howshe talks to men Not jealous,
(19:16):
but not like that Jealous of herability to do what she does.
Niq (19:20):
I definitely think so.
I think that's part of hisobsession.
Jess (19:23):
Yeah, I think that motivation to kind of turn her,
to shut her down, was because hewas jealous of her and but yeah
, but like, yeah, harrison's badmouth and doesn't help, but he
also dismisses.
He dismisses the stuff he knowsshe does.
Niq (19:40):
Like he also.
So I, nick, understands thatHarrison hates Sophie so much
that when he tells Harrisonabout the money going missing he
never tells her it was Sophie.
He never tells him it wasSophie that took it Because he
know Harrison would immediatelywent to the police.
He would have rolled her over.
He would have rolled yeah.
Immediately so even Nick knows.
(20:01):
Harrison never asked.
Jess (20:03):
Yeah, even Nick knows Harrison is trashed.
Yeah, he knows they don't likeeach other, because when he
realizes that Harrison isresponsible for the death of her
side piece, he doesn't tell her, he lets her think it was him.
Right.
For that same reason he waslike oh no, these two will roll
over on each other in a minute.
Niq (20:18):
Which is very, very weird.
Why are you playing man in themiddle between your best friend
Right, especially when youthey're like it's like he's in
the middle of like this weirdtriangle, like carolyn's in love
with him but he don't reallywant her harrison is in love
with him, but he don't.
He don't want harrison.
(20:38):
Sophie likes him, but he'sobsessed with her like she does,
like she likes Nick.
I don't think she loves him.
Jess (20:48):
I don't either.
I don't know that she has theability to love maybe not, I
don't know.
Niq (20:56):
Like so in the beginning, all of them know I do too.
Oh, I'm still on my everybody.
I hate everybody on the showbut her.
Jess (21:09):
She is not a good person.
She's not, but I still like her.
She's likable.
Niq (21:14):
That's how charming she is so the therapist.
Now, of course, I don't knowthe rules, the way that you know
the rules when it comes totherapy, professionalism, what's
okay to do, what's not to do.
One thing I can't figure out iswe get to watch her therapy
sessions throughout the show.
I don't understand what thetherapist's goal is With the way
(21:37):
she talks to her, the questionsshe asks her.
I don't understand what she'strying to do.
Jess (21:41):
She's trying to get her to accept that she committed
suicide because Sophie is tryingto figure out what really
happened.
She's struggling with acceptingthat and Sophie says a line
that is so good to me, to thetherapist and she was like you
know, the therapist basicallyasked her when are you going to
take accountability for what youdid?
And she was like it's hard totake accountability for
(22:04):
something you don't rememberdoing.
And I'm like that is a reallygood voice.
Niq (22:08):
It makes sense, and so that's what I'm trying to.
That's what I'm saying.
I don't really understand thetherapist, because it's like the
therapist will not consideranything other than she was
trying to commit suicide.
Even if she jumped from the boat, that doesn't necessarily mean
she was trying to kill herselfright and and so for the
therapist to be so rigid andlike forcing her to like agree
(22:31):
to something that we don't evenknow is true, she doesn't know
if she was pushed or not, or shedoesn't know, if she did jump,
what the reason was, and also,if she can't remember anything
that happened before, why doesshe have to like accept that?
I don't understand how.
I don't understand what thatdoes for her.
Jess (22:53):
I think I guess part of it , and I'm not saying I agree
with the therapist in this case,but like I think she was trying
to get her to stop doing someof the more dangerous things,
trying to find out what happened, and like, stop some of the
what appeared to the therapistas erratic or, you know,
sporadic behavior and trying tofinding, trying to find out.
(23:14):
But like to me it was like no,she's just genuinely trying to
put piece together what happened.
But so I think I think shethought if she accepts that this
is what happened, then she'llstop doing all this craziness to
try to figure out and go intothese alternative treatments,
all of which I was like if shewants to go that bad, all you
got to do is tell her what yourconcerns and then you still let
(23:34):
her make the decision.
I'll be like listen, x, y, z,dang, dang, dang, diggity,
diggity down.
Now do what you want to do.
I'm going to be here regardless.
Niq (23:48):
To me her dad should have spent her time helping, trying
to help her move forward Likehow do you like help her create
a new identity and to deal andgrieve with the loss of her
memories and who she was.
You know what I mean it justdidn't seem like that, the
therapist was interested inhelping her become a complete
(24:10):
person again.
Jess (24:11):
Yeah, no, everybody.
And I can't say that I've neverhad a loved one go through this
.
So like I kind of understandthe lay people, but it was
frustrating to watch everybodytrying to force her back to this
person that she was.
And I do think that that's whatwould have happened outside of
the therapist.
I think everybody would try topush you back into who they knew
(24:31):
you who to be.
But I'm like, but it's soobvious, like she's never going
to be that person again.
She's.
You know what I mean.
Like let her figure out who sheis from this point forward
because the gag is she was neverthat person to begin with.
She was pretending that is thefunny part, that's, and that is
why they really don't know her.
It's because she was pretending.
Niq (24:53):
And so to me it seems like, yes, she lost all her memories,
but she has remained her coreself.
She's still a con person, she'sstill a grifter, she still
strategizes, she still canmanipulate, make manipulate
people like right and makepeople just like want to help
(25:14):
her and do for her.
She all of those things, hercore self, it it stayed, it
stayed, and all of the windowdressings that she had put on,
they're all gone, right andthat's the thing is like.
Jess (25:28):
So people, since people really don't know her, because
she really didn't have any closefriends, because she's a con
artist, people are trying to gether to go back to the facade
that they knew the funny thingis even, but she doesn't even
know that, like she can'tunderstand that because she
doesn't remember who she was toknow that the person that they
knew was not real.
Niq (25:47):
So I'm going to tell you my favorite quote that she said
was it's hard not knowing yourown secrets.
Yeah, and I was like damn yeah,right for real, and so as she's
going like as she's going in.
So she I feel like her recoverywas was going pretty good until
(26:13):
thomas, the police officer,showed back up and basically was
like hey, um, I think yourhusband has something to do with
this, I'm investigating thecase and you're not safe.
And then that caused her tostart looking for things.
And you know, when you'relooking for something, you will
find it, because you will twistand manipulate things to to fit
(26:36):
what you already like have goingon.
So she has her husband, who'sbeing very controlling and she
just doesn't fit in with whatthe what they told her her life
was.
And her husband's also nottruthful about a lot of things
Because he's trying to erase allof their past mistakes and
marital issues by lying, theywere not in a good place.
Jess (26:59):
When, of course and he's trying to erase all that and the
fact that he cheated and allthat kind of stuff he kind of
gets a do-over in that way.
I will say this I think thereason why the police officer
showing up was so effective isbecause she already had a sense
that something was off with herhusband.
She just couldn't put herfinger on it.
So, him coming in and givingher, she was like I knew
something was wrong with thisman, I knew something was wrong
(27:20):
with this, you know, and it just, I think it ignited something
that was already there, becauseshe already was lying to him,
because she knew that shecouldn't be you know, even about
basic stuff, because she knewshe couldn't tell him the truth
about you know where she wouldgo, like when the therapist
tells her to go out of town withhim.
And she was like, yeah, shesaid we need time apart.
I was rolling.
Niq (27:39):
I was rolling.
Yeah, she did spin that oneactually really well, because
she set the therapist up.
Oh my gosh, like I've beenhaving the same routine every
day, I just need some fresh air.
Like she really set thetherapist up and she.
What I loved about the scene iswhen she talked to her husband.
She said the things that shesaid the therapist said were
(28:02):
correct.
They were true.
That's, the therapist reallydid say it, but she flipped the
context and I I'm like thatwoman is good, she's good, she
really is good.
She flipped that context reallyto get away from him, which,
though it is crazy that sheshouldn't have had to even lie
to do it.
Jess (28:21):
Yeah, but she knew that she did.
I'm like her instincts thatsomething is off with her
husband was right.
It's just what was off waswrong, Because it's not okay for
your husband to spy on you andhave that much control over you.
Like that's weird.
I don't care that you were in aconservatorship.
Like nobody has a right to belooking at you on cameras all
day.
Niq (28:38):
You know what is so funny to me?
I wonder if, when she woke upfrom her coma, if he would have
just been honest and forthrightwith her, what would have
happened If he would have justbeen honest and forthright with
her?
What would have happened if hewould have been like you know,
I'm so thankful that you werealive.
We were in such a bad place.
But this situation, if theseare the things that I did wrong
(28:59):
and I think maybe I pushed youto to want to do that, and I'm
so sorry and let's work onthings, let's start anew but if
he would have just like, beentransparent and open from the
beginning, I think she wouldn'thave that feeling of mistrust
for him that's true, becausehe's not a good liar, because
part of the reason why she evenstarts, you know, conning for
(29:19):
him is because he's trying to doit and make himself bigger, but
it's not working because he'sbad at it.
Jess (29:24):
So, like it's obvious that you lying and you're not
telling the whole truth, becauseyou're not good at this.
He does lie about stupid stuff.
Niq (29:34):
Like lying about a conference that you say you go
to every year and you don't,when that's such an easy
question like that.
Come on, man.
Jess (29:44):
And she had you not.
She almost got that informationwithout you.
Niq (29:47):
Mm, hmm, like I, just I'm like, sir, you need to always
tell the truth.
Jess (29:54):
you are terrible and that's the other thing it's like
.
So, since you didn't push her,why are you lying about the
conference?
Niq (30:00):
because he, once again, he was trying to pretend like
everything was so great.
He was supposed to be there buthe didn't go.
Yeah, I think he was trying.
I think at that point he knewshe stole the money, I think.
(30:21):
So what we find out is Sophie'sreal name is Tess Caldwell and
she's basically she's a conartist, she's a scammer, and so
her plan was that she was goingto take that 11 million dollars
and she was going to go off andlike live a new life without him
(30:42):
.
And so Nick had found out abouther infidelity and, in turn,
cheated with Carolyn.
But she was like playing a coolhand, like, oh you know, we can
work it out, we can figure itout as she's trying to escape
with the money and the way thatshe convinces him to give the
money is she tells him thatshe's found like a business
opportunity and you know it's.
(31:04):
It's so ground floor that noone can know.
And because she has spent somany like all of this time
hooking him up with like thebest business people and
building his career, like hebelieved it so easily.
Which $11 million?
Like if my husband bought me abusiness opportunity and he
(31:26):
needed a thousand dollars, abusiness opportunity and he
needed $1,000.
There would be so manyquestions like questions upon
questions.
So $11 million and it's noteven your money he took money
from.
He basically embezzled themoney from his company because
(31:46):
they did not know he wasinvesting in this business that
she literally made up.
Jess (31:53):
It was a real business.
Because, like she was masterful, she had him investigate the
real business.
Because even the way she playedhim, because at this point she
knows that he doesn't want herto be as competent as she is.
So she dangles the carrot andthen she's like, oh, but you
know, you know more about thesethings.
Here's the company.
And then she's like, oh, butyou know, you know more about
these things, here's the company.
You take a look, you know, youknow what I mean.
Like I was like this girl isphenomenal.
Niq (32:14):
How did she get the money if the business was real?
Jess (32:17):
The business was real because, like, she was the
intermediary though, so like,whatever accounts that he had to
put it in, like did not go tothe people Because, remember,
that dude was pissed with himthe actual, the guy who actually
had the company I forgot aboutthat that was a real person,
this was a real company.
She just that money never gotthere.
(32:37):
So, like, their investmentactually fell through because
they were waiting on his $11million.
And so when he met that guy inperson, he's like oh, I'm so
happy to meet you.
He's like F you, man, youscrewed me.
That's how he finds out thatshe took the money.
He's thinking that they got themoney and yeah, and then she
didn't create an old account forherself and got that money in
(32:59):
that account so, basically,thomas has convinced her that
her husband has stolen the moneyand that maybe that could be
motive on why he pushed her.
Niq (33:10):
He's also convinced that you know that he pushed her.
And so what's hilarious is that, like they like the two of them
are hardcore investigating thehusband, like go, like she's
disabling the alarm so Thomascan go through the house, she's
recording his conversations likethey are hardcore, like on the
(33:32):
verge of busting the husband.
And then, at the very lastminute, she figures out that it
was her that stole the money.
And what made that scene sohilarious?
So the husband and wife were ata party and Thomas was at their
(33:52):
house, um, like, conducting aninvestigation, trying to get
evidence.
She ends up leaving the partyand nick assumes that she has
gone home.
So he goes home to try to findher and she.
He runs into thomas and heknows that thomas is the one
sleeping with his wife.
The two of them are there.
(34:14):
Neither one of them leave.
They are waiting all night forher to get there and they are
actually standing out in frontof the house when she gets there
, which in and of itself isinsane, is insane.
She comes home, she walks pastThomas.
(34:35):
Like he's not even there.
Jess (34:38):
Like she don't even know him.
Niq (34:39):
She walks past Thomas like he is not even there and like
basically tells Nick, go in thehouse, come on, let's go, and he
does, and he kind of looks atThomas like eh.
And so she goes in there andshe's like, um am I traveling?
(35:01):
was it me the whole time and soat that point, like she kind of
drops Nick and that's when Imean she drops Thomas, and
that's when I mean she dropsThomas, and that's when Thomas
like really goes into full-blownstalker mode and yada, yada,
yada, thomas ends up dead.
But I mean he knew that she wasmarried and he knew she was
(35:24):
married to like a rich, powerfulman.
I don't know why he everthought that she would run away
to be with him.
He is nobody and he has nothing.
And if he was a good privatedetective he would know that she
was a con artist.
He would have figured that out,and then he would have really
known that she would have neverleft him.
(35:46):
So he is either a terrible copNot for him anyway.
Jess (35:51):
Okay, I'm telling you he is either.
It was not for him, anyway he'sokay.
I'm telling you he's a terriblecop.
He's a terrible cop because,like so many times, he abuses
his power.
You know what I mean like to toget whatever he wants.
Like he's one of those like I'mdoing it in the name of the law
, so it's okay, even though allthe stuff you're doing is
illegal, and I'm not talkingabout him being a drug dealer,
but like he's like in gettingother people to do stuff that's
(36:12):
illegal at their job to for thisinvestigation that he's not
supposed to be doing for so allkind of stuff.
Niq (36:18):
So yeah, he's a bad cop I'm gonna tell you, police who feel
like they can do whatever tosolve a case, I call them
detective staplers.
No, he's a total stapler.
Yeah, definitely.
And so I'm like, oh, youactually I don't feel bad for
you, you actually deserve that.
And so Sophie, though, isreally upset because she thinks
(36:44):
that Nick killed the policeofficer, and she's really upset.
But I don't buy it.
I think that because she usesthat when she writes Nick his
dear John letter, she uses thefact that she thinks he killed
the cop as the reason.
I think that she's lying.
Yeah, she just wanted to go,and she's like this will work,
(37:05):
this will work, but she's notgood enough reason.
And he's reading this letterand he's like, if she came back
today, he would take her back.
Like I'm waiting for him tolike pop up on her, because he
is obsessed with her.
He needs to go talk to Hannah.
He needs to talk to thetherapist.
Jess (37:26):
Maybe a different one.
Niq (37:27):
Yeah, yeah, I'm in.
Hannah loves him, though,though maybe she'll give him the
care I don't know.
I just like I don't know.
Jess (37:36):
Everybody seem to fall in love with Nick and Sophie, so
who knows, hannah might be inlove with him too.
Niq (37:40):
Maybe everybody is in love with both of them based on her
haircut, I would have thoughtshe would have been in love with
Sophie, but you never know.
Jess (37:46):
I don't even know that she likes Sophie.
I feel like she don't even knowthat she likes Sophie.
I feel like she don't.
Niq (37:51):
Sophie does irritate her.
Jess (37:55):
They irritate each other.
That's why I'm like at thispoint, why you ain't requested
that?
Because they cannot stand eachother.
And it's beyond just the.
You know, therapists challengeyou sometimes and that does piss
people off and that is part oftheir job to challenge you about
stuff.
But it's beyond that.
They don't like each other.
Niq (38:12):
No she doesn't, it's not productive.
At this point, that's what I'msaying.
She doesn't get anything out ofthose sessions, I don't know.
So here let me ask you aquestion, because I feel very
strongly about this Is thereever a situation where it's okay
(38:33):
to put someone inconservatorship?
Jess (38:37):
Yeah, there are people who absolutely cannot make
decisions for themselves.
Niq (38:47):
It just seems like every time you hear about
conservatorship, somebody isgetting screwed over and I feel
like we need something else.
Jess (38:53):
Well, that's what you hear about.
You don't hear about the onesthat are functioning the way
that they're supposed tofunction, because why would you?
And that doesn't mean that thethat it still doesn't need an
overhaul, but like there areabsolutely adults who cannot and
will never be able to makedecisions for themselves, and it
would be a detriment to themand everybody else for them to
(39:15):
do that.
And those are the cases thathave them.
Niq (39:20):
I think maybe there needs to be like some sort of team,
but where people are independentfrom each other.
But where people areindependent from each other,
because it just seems likeanytime there's a
conservatorship, people worktogether to siphon from that
person and keep them locked up.
And how do we mitigate that?
Jess (39:42):
piece of it?
I don't know, Because ineverything there are going to be
people who take advantage anddo things the wrong way, Like
you know what I mean.
Whenever bad people have power,it's an issue, and so I've seen
it go wrong in all the ways,whether it's a family member in
charge or when it's likesomebody the state has assigned
to be in charge, and if you'vegot a person who is going to
(40:04):
abuse their power in thatposition, they're going to abuse
their power in that position.
I think there needs to be areview process and I'd like you
know, maybe every few years orevery something like that, or a
way that the person who wasunder conservatorship can
request which they're supposedto be, but it just seems so hard
for them to do that Like thatmaybe needs to be able to be
made easier.
But there absolutely are peoplewho do not have the ability to
(40:29):
make decisions for themselves,and if you give those people,
you know, if you allow them to,and especially if they have
access to money, they'resometimes going to make
decisions that are dangerous foreveryone.
You know what I mean.
But again, if it's working likeit's supposed to, you don't
hear about it.
You're going to hear about theanswer or not.
So maybe there needs to be likean independent advocate, yeah,
(40:53):
like someone who is outside ofthe conservatorship, who, like,
meets with the person likemonthly, talks to them and is
like their, their, advocate yeahI mean, there's something
overhaul and there's definitelyin it, and especially in, like,
the higher profile or the caseswhere people because, like,
(41:14):
everybody who's under somethinglike this does not have a lot of
money, and so you don't hearabout it you hear about the ones
where people have an insaneamount of money, you know.
So, like, yeah, like, those arethe ones that you hear about,
and those are the people who,yeah, those are the ones that
you hear about, and those arethe people who, well, they're
not the only ones who get takenadvantage of.
I think they get takenadvantage of in different ways.
No-transcript, so you at leastknow are familiar with what
(41:52):
those person's limitations are.
You know what I mean, becausethey're, they're just there's a
lot of, there's a lot ofpotential issues with this.
So, yeah, and someone that theycan reach out to if they're
being abused, if they're beingharmed, if they're ready to, are
like Sophie's, which shouldhave always been temporary,
cause she was going to get backto the point where she could
care for herself.
Whether or not she gets hermemories back doesn't matter.
(42:12):
She's a functional adult atthis point.
You know what I mean.
I'm guessing that there wassome point where she really
couldn't, either, make decisionsfor herself.
She was just that unclear towhere he had to do that and he
was able to do that.
But it should have always beentemporary for her because she
was definitely going to get backto the point where she could
(42:33):
make decisions for herself, andto me she's at that point when
we meet her.
Niq (42:39):
So what's weird is he's like oh you know, it's so hard,
you have to get lawyers involvedand all of this to take it
apart.
Was it easy to put it together?
Jess (42:47):
Yeah, so what?
Let's get all of them.
And that bothers me more thananything.
That bothers me with him, ofcourse, but he's self-controlled
, of course he's not going torelease it and he is using this
to completely control every bitof her life and to keep her with
him.
So I'm like, but to me, thetherapist, that's one thing that
she could have startedadvocating for, because part of
(43:09):
this is you evaluating that thisperson is now able to care for
themselves and make decisionsfor themselves.
So I'm like why wouldn't youtell your client okay, you might
want to consider starting tofile paperwork to get out of
this conservatorship, because atthis point, you may not have
all your memories back, but youcan function as an adult.
You can make decisions foryourself.
Niq (43:26):
You're not a danger to yourself at this point when she
said she wanted to like buy somedresses, and he's like oh, I
can take you shopping, like thatwas so I was so pissed.
Jess (43:36):
I was like, oh no, no, you want to control every aspect of
this woman's life.
Niq (43:40):
No but yeah, because he could have easily just given her
a credit card and said here yougo or the money or anything,
but no, he wants to know whereshe is at all points in time.
Jess (43:51):
He's constantly spying on her.
Yeah, it's a problem, it's awhole problem it is.
And because her relationshipwith her therapist is so bad she
doesn't trust her enough toeven tell her any of that stuff.
Niq (44:05):
Right, I agree, her relationship with her therapist
is like I hate it.
Jess (44:13):
Okay, so this is Right.
I agree.
Her relationship with hertherapist is like this is
something that they said andthen it kind of to me they never
fully went back and explained.
You may not Even season two.
I question this, but I don'twant to reveal anything.
At some point they tell herthat her mother was
schizophrenic, basically.
Niq (44:26):
Oh, okay.
Jess (44:26):
So I've seen.
Niq (44:32):
I've seen, I think, episode one and part of episode two, so
I know like her mom.
Jess (44:38):
She thinks that her mom was like murdered or something
yeah, she does think that hermom is murdered, but I also
don't think that her mom isschizophrenic so, but didn't
Hannah tell her that in seasonone that she had a history of
mental illness or something shedid?
Based on the fact that her momwas schizophrenic, which I think
.
She got that information fromthe husband, which I think is
(45:01):
inaccurate.
You think he just made it up.
Niq (45:04):
Yeah, I mean.
Jess (45:11):
When she eventually does start to you know, she alludes
to the fact that she's nottrusting James, and then, to me,
hannah writes it off as oh, youpossibly got paranoia and these
treatments that you got thatyou're not supposed to get,
could lead to paranoia andpsychosis, which also I'm like
okay, whatever, but Hannah isbasing that on a history that I
think that James told her, whichI think is a lie, nick.
Niq (45:34):
Nick or James.
His name is Nick Nick.
Okay, I don't know.
Jess (45:38):
I think you made James up, okay girl, I'm going to call
that man James.
Niq (45:42):
He's like a James to me, okay.
So what would you do if youwere in Sophie's shoes, where
you essentially have lost yourmemories and, as you pieced it
together, you found out that youwere actually like a terrible
person?
How do you move on from that?
Jess (46:04):
girl.
I honestly would have probablyhandled the way she handled it,
like as in I'm out this piece.
He's never going to leave heralone.
Her husband is controlled.
First of all, the first thing Iwould have done was get out
that conservatorship like fromthe point.
That I would have done was getout that conservatorship Like
(46:25):
from the point that I understandthat I'm in one.
I am advocating on all levelsto get out of that
conservatorship With mytherapist and if you won't help
me, I'm getting a new therapist.
If you won't help me, I'm goingto the press.
I'm going to do everything,because at this point nobody can
substantiate that I cannot makedecisions for myself and I
cannot have access to my ownmoney.
So that's one Step, one, I'mgetting out the conservatorship.
If I cannot get out thatconservatorship, then I'm
handling it just the way shehandled it.
Niq (46:46):
Because it's like do you really need to get out the
conservatorship when it's basedon somebody who you actually are
not?
Jess (47:00):
Like on somebody who you actually are not, like she's not
really, that's true.
Like if I was playing on,that's true, that's true, that's
true.
So either way, like, but likeI'm getting away from that man,
I'm getting away from that man,that man, if he's not abusive
now, he he going to because,like, once he realized he can't
control every aspect of yourlife, it ain't got nowhere else
to go yeah, I just think that,like if I found out that I was
like a terrible person, I wouldwant to just leave and start
over, start fresh and figure outokay, yes, I used to be a
(47:21):
terrible person, but let mestart my life over.
Niq (47:23):
And let's see who I am now I mean I mean I still may be
maybe, but let me just see, I Ijust don't see, I don't see how
I could like stay in thatsituation because honestly, like
watching the show, I felt likeI was suffocating a little bit
at times.
Yeah, it was very like she wasso isolated.
Jess (47:47):
Yeah, he suffocated, and that's part of the problem too.
Like I said, the therapistseems like she's listening to
the husband more than she'slistening to her own client.
All the people that you've beentold your friends are not your
friends.
They're your husband's friends.
You don't have anybody, so one.
She might even have to make anew friend and establish a
relationship so that she justhas somebody else that can also
help advocate for her, becauseall of your connections are his
(48:10):
connections.
Right, or do what she did,which is fake her own death and
take your behind back to london.
Niq (48:19):
Faking your own death is wildly dramatic, especially like
stealing 11 million dollarsfrom your husband and then
faking your death like I justfeel like maybe there was
another way to solve herproblems.
Jess (48:33):
I wasn't mad at none of it .
I really wasn't.
Niq (48:36):
It's obvious, though, that she's a runner, Because one of
the things you find out abouther as she does get some
memories from going to like whatwas that thing, what was this?
Was it hypnosis?
Jess (48:48):
What was that?
No, it was even moreexperimental than that, because
I'm like I don't think thetherapist the therapist wouldn't
have had an issue with hypnosis.
It was something crazy.
Niq (48:57):
I can't remember.
She went to hypnosis first andthen she went up to the next
place.
Jess (49:02):
Then she went to biofeedback, but neither the
hypnosis nor the biofeedbackwere places that upset the
therapist.
It was that other experimentaltreatment that I cannot remember
what the heck they were doingto her.
Was it the sensory deprivation?
I don't know.
They started with sensorydeprivation and they did
something else.
Niq (49:18):
Because I honestly thought that she was just wasting her
money.
Jess (49:22):
I ain't never heard of it, but it helped.
More memories come back.
Niq (49:27):
It did, and so one of the memories that she found out was
that she liked to ride horsesand also that she likes to kiss
girls, which I thought washilarious, because I'm like
that's why you don't really likenick for real, not even your
type, so I'm just like she needsto like, like run, and but you
(49:49):
also find I think she also findsout that she runs from
situations when things get hairy.
Jess (49:56):
Yeah, but I just don't feel like.
I feel like Nick was going tofight her on that
conservatorship.
You know, and since you don'thave any money, you don't have
any friends or you don't haveany family, it is really hard to
advocate for yourself in thatsituation.
Niq (50:11):
Mm-hmm yeah, I agree, I mean, I think running was her
best option.
Mm-hmm yeah, I agree, I mean, Ithink running was her best
option.
Jess (50:18):
Yeah, I guess you could have played.
That was the advocate got onHannah's good side and it slowly
turned her against James andgot her to start advocating for
you.
But that's a long time.
Niq (50:33):
She really can't.
No, I think it would be easierto convince Thomas before he was
dead that Nick tried to beather up, and then Thomas would
have killed him.
Jess (50:47):
Or had him arrested or something like that.
You know what?
Thomas would have been her onlyadvocate, but then she stuck
with Thomas and it's like you'rejumping from, but she's not
legally bound to Thomas, so thatstill would have been a better
like.
Okay, let's say, if you'regoing to stay in your own life
and stay in this identity,thomas is the best advocate.
You get him arrested, get himout of the situation, because,
(51:09):
also, nobody knows necessarilythat you stole the 11 million
dollars and unless they foundthat account with her name on it
which might have come out inthe investigation but you know
what I mean she could have gothim to go to jail, got the house
, got everything.
Niq (51:24):
Actually, yeah, thomas is her best advocate but the
problem is he's going to want tomove into that house he is.
Jess (51:30):
he is going to want to move into the house.
The thing is, you get out ofthat conservatorship, because
once he gets arrested, he can nolonger be a conservator.
You get out of thatconservatorship.
You get your husband away,locked up.
I don't care if he stay lockedup or not, you get out.
You are not legally bound toThomas.
The thing is that you nevermarry Thomas.
You can never marry Thomasbecause when you're ready to,
when you're done, when you beable to move, right, but that's
(51:53):
her only advocate.
Niq (51:57):
Rough lady.
Jess (51:59):
Yes, I mean like none of the choices were great and all
of them involved her continuingto con.
Niq (52:04):
This show had me stressed, because I'm like all of the
information was pointing thateverybody was out to get her.
Everybody was lying to her,which, yes, everybody was lying.
Everybody was lying to getlying to her, but really she was
(52:25):
out to get everybody else andto get her freedom.
She was moving these peoplearound like chess pieces, right,
you know?
Jess (52:34):
Which brings me to my question Do you think she really
tried to kill herself?
Niq (52:40):
No, no, I don't either.
I thought that they explainedwhy she did it.
Jess (52:49):
My assumption was I think she was trying to fake her own
death the first time.
I think it was something aboutthere was an island she was
trying to fake her own death.
Niq (52:54):
The first time too, I think it was something about.
Jess (52:56):
There was an island she was trying to get to okay, and
then she jumped too soon or atthe wrong point yeah.
Niq (53:06):
I don't know like I felt like she she wasn't trying to
kill herself when she jumped.
I didn't fully understand whyshe needed to jump because I
mean I think like you can jumpoff like a small boat and be
okay, but like when you jump offlike big ships, like cruise
ships and ferries, I think likethe force that you hit the water
(53:28):
, it messes your body up.
So I don't think she really waslike thinking it through.
Jess (53:34):
Well, I think she didn't count for the propeller, because
what happened was I think shewas trying to fake her own death
that time and get away with the11 million dollars, but what
happened, what you see is likethe propeller like sucks her in
and then she ends up hitting herhead on the propeller and
that's why she lost her memory.
So I think she was trying tofake her death the first time
and didn't jump off at the rightspot and didn't account for the
(53:56):
propeller at the bottom of theship pulling her in.
Niq (54:02):
I just think that jumping off of a ferry without doing a
hell of a lot of research iscrazy.
It's crazy because also thewater seemed a little rocky.
It just did not, it was.
It's crazy Because also thewater seemed a little rocky.
Jess (54:17):
It just did not.
It was, yeah, Both choppy andtheir little chunks of rock in
it Like, yeah, no, this was nota good plan.
I get why you had to.
And because James is soobsessed Nick, that man's name
is Nick is so obsessed that hewouldn't have stopped looking
(54:37):
for her if he didn't think shewas dead.
Niq (54:39):
The way I would have cut myself and just put a whole
bunch of blood because it wasone of those fairies you drove
into, right, or did she?
I would have had blood all inmy car.
Some of my hair I would havemade had blood like all in my
car, or like some of my hairlike I would have made it seem
like somebody like chopped me upin little pieces, like I think
(55:02):
I would have waited till likethe boat docked before I jumped
or something.
I don't know she, just her planwas not that good.
You know what?
It reminds me of um and One ofour, the first show that we
reviewed, kevin can F himself,when the lady Faked her death by
(55:22):
just like leaving her Backpackin the woods.
She had like all of these Likecrazy, like I'm gonna, you know,
I'm gonna Like be in his carand I'm gonna set the car on
fire and I'm just gonna leavelike a tooth in there.
Like you know, it's like crazy,like not well thought out death
faking, you know.
(55:42):
So, even though she's a conartist, she needs to tighten up
her game a little bit or just onher faking her death right yeah
, yeah, the way she manipulatespeople, she does good.
Jess (55:56):
Her fake and her death Right.
Yeah, yeah, the way shemanipulates people, she does
good.
Niq (56:00):
So, yes, so I'm excited to watch season two To see what it
entails, but I'm just based onthe episode and a half that I've
seen.
It's not at this point.
It is not connected to seasonone because she's kind of going
in her past to try to figure outwho she was and you know, she's
(56:24):
trying to reconnect with herold girlfriend, she's trying to
investigate her mom's death, allof these things Like.
If Nick pops up, I won't beshocked because he is crazy.
Jess (56:36):
Yeah.
Niq (56:37):
But it's not about him.
Jess (56:40):
But I see that as the connection between season one,
season two.
I do like that they are sodifferent.
I wasn't expecting that, butthey are so different.
But it is still her trying tofigure out who she is Right and
so, since she's originally fromLondon, she's back in London.
Niq (56:57):
So, yeah, I can't wait for us to have that conversation.
Jess (57:01):
Oh yeah, yeah, I can't wait for you to watch it.
I think you're going to enjoyit, yeah.
Niq (57:05):
Guys, I hope you really enjoyed this episode.
If you guys have checked outseason one of Surface, let us
know your takeaways in thecomments.
We're always curious to know ifthe things that you think about
the show line up to the thingsthat we say.
Feel free.
If you completely disagree withus, let us know in the comments
(57:26):
.
We want to know.
We'll see you next time, guys.
Bye.
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