Our Cross to Bear

This episode dives deep into how grief shapes the narratives of Alex Cross and those around him, examining the emotional turmoil that arises from loss. Exploring themes of accountability, relationships, and unresolved pain, we reflect on the importance of addressing grief rather than letting it fester unchecked, highlighting the struggles of Alex as a father and a professional in mental health.

• Examining the role of grief as a central theme in the Alex Cross narrative 
• Discussing Alex’s avoidance of therapy and its implications 
• Understanding Alex’s guilt regarding his wife’s murder 
• Insights into parenthood amid loss and its impact on children’s well-being 
• The dynamic of Cross’s friendships and accountability 
• The effect of grief on secondary characters like Nancy and Peter 
• Highlighting societal expectations and personal experiences with mourning 
• The necessity of recognizing and addressing grief for healing

Contact Niq & Jess

Episode Transcript

Nig (00:00):
Hi guys, welcome back to next episode with Niq and.
I'm Jess and today we're goingto continue our conversation
about Cross, and today I reallywant to explore grief and its
role in the season.
If you think about it like theserial killer was one plot line,
the stalker was another plotline, I feel like grief was also

(00:25):
a plot line this season.
What do you think about that?

Jess (00:28):
No, no, I agree.
We see, like Alex Cross' griefis such a big part of what's
going on right now that, yeah,it does also feel like a
character.
But there are other peoplegrieving in the show as well.

Nig (00:40):
Yes.
So my first question to you isAlex is a forensic psychologist,
right, right?
Why is he running from therapyto help with his wife's?

Jess (00:56):
death.
Have you ever heard likedoctors and nurses make the
worst patients?

Nig (01:01):
Yes, I have heard that.

Jess (01:03):
You know that's what it is .
Um, sometimes it's so hard whenyou're the helper to go get
help and I also think that'scoupled by the fact that Alex is
really smart and he's like thebest in his field.
It's kind of there's a littlebit of arrogance there, like who
can help me, you know, andtrusting someone else when he's
like at the top of of his field.
But yeah, he absolutely needsto go therapy and he is running

(01:26):
full speed for it.

Nig (01:28):
And so do you also think, because his wife was murdered
and at the time of his wife'smurder he has no idea why she's
murdered.
Later on he comes to theunderstanding of it, but he has
a huge amount of guilt about thefact that his wife was murdered
and the fact that he could notprotect her.

(01:48):
Do you think in a sense hefeels like he deserves that pain
and is?
Could that also be a reason whyhe doesn't seek help, because
he feels like he deserves that,that hurt and pain and shame
that he feels?

Jess (02:01):
absolutely, absolutely, and I actually think that that's
pretty common with grief tooLike to blame yourself, even
when it's not realistic to blameyourself.
I think that that is normal andthat's definitely a place
people go, but also, yes, heclearly the guilt is around him
not being able to protect herand him seeing himself as a

(02:22):
protector just in general, likehe's supposed to be able to
protect everybody.
It is unrealistic.
But I think that's also why hegoes into these days as a police
officer and not as a part ofthe FBI.
It never goes to the FBI, eventhough he's clearly well
qualified for it.
I think being a police officeron the ground in the community
feels more like he's protectingpeople.

(02:43):
His grief is palpable.
I think being a police officeron the ground in the community
feels more like he's protectingpeople.

Nig (02:45):
Yeah, and here's the like.
His grief is palpable, like thepain that you see him
experience through this series.
Kudos Aldous Hodge.
He did a great job.
He really did a great job and,like I was, I was so like sucked

(03:05):
in.
So, for example, there's ascene where he's calling the
radio station, um, and he'stalking to like would you
consider that the dj, yeah, the,the host of the show, um, and
it was like his wife's favoriteshow and they used to call in
and listen to music together.
And he's talking to the DJabout his wife and I'm like

(03:26):
that's the closest thing to atherapy session you have had.
But at the same time, like whenI tell you, that scene was
ripping my heart, like the pain,the pain that he is in.
I don't know how he'sfunctioning and he's not in a
lot of ways In a lot of wayshe's not.

(03:48):
He's not functioning in a lot ofways.
So when the show picks up afterthe murder of his wife, it's a
little bit.
Over a year has passed and Ifeel like he has really honestly
not dealt with her death at all, other than he has accepted the
fact that she's really dead.
Yeah, dealt with her death atall, other than he has accepted

(04:14):
the fact that she's really dead?
Yeah, so he's not in denial,but he has not, I feel like,
dealt with her death in a waythat is productive at all.
And so you find out things likehe was trying to solve his
wife's murder himself, which youknow is a no-no, just like you
know, a doctor doesn't operateon their family members.
He should not be investigatinghis wife's murder.
And in the course of thatinvestigation he ends up
actually assaulting an innocentman who he's convinced was the
one that killed his wife.

(04:37):
Or had some information on her,or something like that Right and
he so he assaulted this man andhis best friend, 2john, who's
his partner, turned him in, andthat speaks to the person that 2
John is.
Here's the thing.
I know that Alex Cross is anamazing detective and I

(04:59):
understand that he is also themain character of the show, but
2 John is an amazing human being.
He just is.
He just is because not only ishe a great friend to him and
he's like, good to his familyand he's good at his job, he has

(05:20):
integrity, but he also has alevel of emotional intelligence
Like.
I know we're going to divedeeper into their relationship
at another time, but when Ifound out that he turned him in,
I'm like man.
I like this character Becauseone of the things like whenever

(05:40):
you see like men friendshipportrayed on tv a lot of times
it's like supporting them intheir rights and in their wrongs
and not necessarily holdingthem accountable.
And so for his friend to holdhim accountable and feel like,
hey, this is for your bettermentis amazing.
But alex just did not see itthat way.
Alex understood, I feel like,intellectually, what he was

(06:03):
doing and how he was doing itand he but he kept bringing it
up anytime he got mad at two.
John.
He, like you, turned me in.
I'm like y'all were just eatingfries together and y'all were
happy as clams and now you gotyour finger in his face like
that man.
You knew that man turned you in.
Anytime he gets mad, he throwsit in his face and I just think

(06:24):
that that's part of his griefhas him being so irrational.
Well, okay, I actually thinkthat.

Jess (06:29):
Well, yes, I don't disagree with what you just said
, but I also think it speaks tothe thing that we were talking
about last time, about howcomplicated the relationship
with Black people and the policeare.
And the reason why I say thatis because 2John turned him in
thinking that they were going toforce him to go to counseling,
which you can do, which thepolice could have done and your

(06:50):
job can do, if whatever you'regoing through is affecting your
job, and that's what hisexpectation is.
But no matter how good you are,you are still Black.
And so instead of that, theytook him out for six months.
They gave him a six-monthsuspension.
So when 2 John is turning him in, he's thinking that this is
also going to get him some helpand really push him into getting
some help, and at that time hedefinitely needed it and did not

(07:10):
need to be out there doingpolice work Right.
He did not know how harsh asentence that they were going to
give him and they definitelybrought the hammer down on him
unnecessarily, like now.
Do I think he needed time off?
I do.
I still think you could havedid that without a suspension.
There's so many things youcould do to also make sure he

(07:31):
gets into therapy but also takesome time off, but it not be
like a mark on his record.
And they didn't do that.

Nig (07:36):
I agree.
I think that one.
I feel like, whatever they did,their mandatory therapy should
have been a component and I feellike he should have been
psychologically cleared beforehe could come back to work.
But I think that they couldhave taken him out of being a
detective and had him dosomething in another capacity,
maybe more community policing,where he's going out and he's

(07:57):
talking to kids about differentstuff, I feel like because his
job is really important to him.
I think that six months off ofhis job is really kind of cruel.
I just I think that they couldhave.
He would have been betterserviced just because, like you
said, he loves, he wants to feellike he's protecting people.
I think, keeping him likewithin the community, working

(08:20):
with the community but alsoreceiving therapy, and he should
have been psychologicallycleared before he went back to
work.
I think that that, to me, madea better sense than just, okay,
just go sit down for six monthsFor six months, and I agree with
you.

Jess (08:37):
And when you do the mandatory therapy, you can
stipulate it, and it's usuallystipulated, there's levels to
this.
So you can say mandatorytherapy and you continue to.
Stipulated like there's levelsto this.
So you can say mandatorytherapy and you continue to work
because we still think you'resafe, we think you're unsafe.
You got to sit down for a monthmandatory therapy and then you
do have to be cleared to go backto work.
That is part of that process.

(08:57):
You know what I mean.
There's so many options thatthey could do and they just went
to penalizing him right, whichagain is the whole issue with
how they treat black people.

Nig (09:07):
That is very true.
Yes, it is.
It's not a rehabilitationsystem, it's very much a penal
system.
Yeah, that makes sense.
But, like so, even with thatsix month suspension, he still
did not.
He still has not dealt with hisgrief at all and I feel like

(09:27):
it's to his detriment in so manyways.
I feel like it makes his jobharder, it makes him more
vulnerable because he has a hairtrigger.
Now, what do you want to say?

Jess (09:40):
I was going to say but you notice, like when, after his
wife's died and he's in thepolice station, and like right
before he interacts with thewhite supremacist, he's filling
out a voluntary form.

Nig (09:52):
Okay, yeah, I saw that and they cause.
The chief says to him hey, Iknow you want to take a leave of
absence, but no, we need you onthis case.
And at that point I did notknow about the six month
suspension.
I'm not saying that informationwasn't out there.
Like I sometimes I miss stuff,so at that point I did not know
about the six months he'dalready been off six months.

(10:13):
Yeah right, so he's requesting,or at least tried to right, and
so I thought that that wasreally, really interesting.
Because they're like, oh no,you can't take this leave of
absence, I wonder what he wasgoing to do with.
Because they're like, oh no,you can't take this leave of
absence, I wonder what he wasgoing to do with that leave of
absence.
My feeling is he was just goingto be hunting for his wife's
killer.
I can't prove it.
I don't think he was takingthat leave of absence to like,

(10:36):
let me go and get in therapy,get in somebody's program and
better myself.
I think he was like you knowwhat I need to find out?
I need to find out.

Jess (10:46):
I need to figure out who's who's killing my.
Who killed my wife?
That's what I feel like.
That sounds more like crosshonestly.

Nig (10:51):
And so one of the things like I talked about the fact
that you know he's a mentalhealth professional, yet not
only does he, is he not like incounseling, as far as I know his
, is he not in counseling?
As far as I know, his kids arenot in counseling either.
That is a good point.
Everybody needs to be intherapy, yes, but not only that.

(11:14):
He's ignoring his kids' mentalhealth issues.
He has his grandmother who ishelping as caretakers, you know,
of the children, and she isconstantly bringing things to
the forefront, saying, hey, yourchildren are having these
issues, your children are havingthese issues.
And he is.
His grief is wrapped around himso tightly it's even though you

(11:39):
see him fathering his kids andyou know he has a love for his
kids.
It's like he is so caught up inhis grief that he's not even
making sure that the kids arementally okay, like he's okay
with making sure they'rephysically okay.
They're physically okay,they're well provided for you
know what I mean but he's notmeeting their emotional needs no

(12:01):
, he can do happy stuff withthem, if you notice.
he can do like playful stuffwith them, but anytime like he
has to deal with like conflictwith them or something bad is
happening, it's like he can't,he can't go there with them and
I'm just like sir, okay, youdon't want to deal with your
grief for you, but what?

(12:22):
What about your children?
Once again, it's yeah.

Jess (12:28):
That scene where the little boy says you lost mom,
but we lost mom and you I almostlost it.

Nig (12:37):
Yes, I almost lost it.
Yes, because that, honestly,perfectly sums up where Alex is
emotionally like he, and I don'tknow if it's like he if he's
trying to protect his kids in acertain sense by creating that
distance.
You know what I'm saying?
Like making it, I don't knowwhat.

(12:59):
Do you understand what I'msaying?
Like he's putting emotionaldistance between him and his
kids so if something happened tohim, he feels like it would
hurt less.
Of course, we know it wouldn't,but I'm wondering if that's
what he's trying to do.
But he definitely doesn't haveit.

Jess (13:14):
I think he doesn't have the ability to bandwagon, I
don't think he just does nothave it, but he's still working.

Nig (13:22):
You're hunting a serial killer and then at some point
you're also hunting a stalker,but it's so hard for you to have
a conversation with your childwhere you have like patience.

Jess (13:37):
I think he thinks that he's not going to get past his
grief until he finds her killer,until he solves the murder, and
that's why that's the forefrontof his mind.

Nig (13:48):
But I feel like, once again , he's a mental health
professional and he knows a lotof times that that is not enough
.
That doesn't cure the hurt.

Jess (13:57):
It's still different.
The whole point, though, ofgoing to a mental health
professional is someone outsideyourself.
It's still hard to see you, youknow.
That's why you go to somebodyelse.
So, yes, he probably would tellthat to somebody else perfectly
, but to himself, no, he's not.
He's not there.
He's actually going through it.

Nig (14:20):
He had a conversation with, with, with, with his friend, to
John, and to John was like ifyou, if you had a patient to say
what you just said, you wouldsend them to the hospital.
2john's, like you are not OKand he does not sugarcoat stuff,
even though he calls him sugarand that I love that so much
that 2John's nickname for him issugar.

(14:42):
I miss that.
Watch it again.
He only refers to him.
If you pay attention, he onlyrefers to him as sugar.
It is the cutest, it is the.
They don't explain why, but Ilike when I tell you the fact
that two dogs has a personalnickname for him and his name

(15:03):
and he calls him sugar is justit.
I love it so much they have,they are so cute.
But so we talk about alex'swife's murder.
But honestly, alex's traumastarted very young.
Yeah, because his mom was ondrugs and a prostitute.

Jess (15:25):
It sounds like it both his parents died young.

Nig (15:28):
Yeah they both died.
I think his yeah, his mom anddad both died tragically when he
was very, very young.
Um, they didn't die at the sametime, they died separately.
I think his mom died first andthen his dad, and so he was
raised by his grandmother, whohe calls n Mama, and so, even
though I really think that NanaMama did her best and raised him

(15:50):
well, I think those pains neverreally healed properly, and I
think that's why he has thatdesire to help and to protect,
because he maybe feels like hisparents weren't protected yeah,
you know, and it, but it's, it'sto your detriment, like you

(16:12):
should have got that stuff fixed.
You should have got that stufffixed.
And it wasn't a problem beforebecause he was so happy, like he
was someone who married hisdream girl, the, the love of his
life, his soulmate, and theyhad, like you know, children.
He had the career that hewanted, they were incredibly
happy, and so it was very easy,I feel like, to push down those

(16:34):
feelings.
But now, with his wife beingdead, being murdered, everything
is bubbling up.
Yeah, everything is bubbling up.

Jess (16:44):
And this probably also speaks to why he's grieving for
so long because I think a lot ofpeople are really pushing him
to get over it and he's just notthere yet because, like you're
dealing with the grief of yourwife, it's probably bringing up
from the grief of things, fromthe grief of your parent.

Nig (17:00):
It's a lot of stuff that he's working on let me ask you
this, like can we be fair?
I don't know that people aretelling him to get over it.
I think what people are tellinghim to do is to give help and
to acknowledge where he ismentally and where he needs to
be.
I don't think anybody's likeyour wife died, get over it.

(17:21):
But they're like, hey, you gotkids and your kids need you and
you're not functioning wellenough.
You need to fix that, you needto figure it out.
You know, hey.

Jess (17:31):
I feel like there's an era of you've been grieving too
long.

Nig (17:34):
I don't get.
I don't see that, because Idon't think that anyone expects
him to stop grieving.
I think that they expect him toget help so that at some point,
yes, maybe he can stop grieving.
Because this is what and I wantto really talk about this more
in the next episode but the factthat he is grieving and he's

(17:58):
just raw and an open wound, buthe is somehow dating.
Yeah, open wound, but he issomehow dating, yeah, but you
know what?

Jess (18:12):
And I know everybody has brought that up and I know that
that is incredibly common formen, and I'm not saying it's
right, I'm saying it's commonMost men who lose a spouse start
dating again within six months.

Nig (18:27):
Honestly, that's not an issue.
My specific issue is that he isstill hung up on on his wife,
in the sense that I feel likethe woman he's currently dating
is competing with a ghost.
And that is the issue, becausea lot of times, a lot of times,

(18:48):
that's the worst one, that's theworst kind of competition to be
in.
A lot of times when a lot likemen who especially have been
happily married, they will moveon fast because they don't know
how to live withoutcompanionship, but they don't
bring their like ex-wife ortheir, their, their their

(19:08):
deceased spouse into therelationship with them.

Jess (19:12):
But it's like he's having a threesome or like the like the
goat, like he's like got a gota ghost as a side chick, like he
is very much still in a heavyemotional relationship with his
wife, who is not alive, whiledating this other woman, and

(19:32):
that is a problem I don't knowif what you're describing is
common or what's healthy,because, while I would say yes,
when men are able to move on andlike their wife passed and
they're able to have a newrelationship in a way and not
bring their wife into it, Ithink that is healthy, again, I
don't know that that's what'scommon, because men also will

(19:55):
use women to heal right so wehave a friend who passed away
during COVID and when herhusband got remarried it kind of
broke my heart a bit because itwas like, oh, she's really gone

(20:17):
, you know.

Nig (20:19):
But one thing I know about them they were in love.
Oh yeah, you know what I what Imean?
Like they were, they had abeautiful relationship.
They were so in love, you know.
And so when I see him now withhis new wife and he looks happy,
he does, he does look happy, helooks so happy.

(20:39):
You know what I mean, and I,and and I'm like you know what,
I'm glad that he has thatbecause, honestly, that's what
she would want for him.
She wouldn't want him to bemiserable because she loved him
just that much.

Jess (20:52):
Yeah, and I can't remember the details.
But I also don't think hedefinitely has remarried and is
in a different relationship.
But I feel like he gave himselfsome time.
I don't feel like he did thatimmediately.
No, no, no, I'm not saying thathe did that immediately Right,
but I'm saying okay, and I saythat to say I think that's the
difference.
Like you know what I mean.

Nig (21:11):
I don't know what the time frame was Right.

Jess (21:16):
I can't remember the details, like I said, but I feel
like he gave himself some timeand while because we know that
first relationship and we knewthem as a couple, it's kind of a
little bit hard to watch.
But from what I've seen of himin the new relationship it looks
very different than his firstone but he does look really
happy.
But to me, again, that's a signlike you didn't try to recreate
what you had before, you have aunique and different

(21:38):
relationship with this new woman.
But again, he gave himself sometime, I think.

Nig (21:45):
I don't know how much time, because time moves differently,
but when I saw it it surprisedme, but it was more so.
Like I said, for me that was asign that, oh my gosh, like no,
she's really gone.
You know, what I mean, and soit definitely wasn't immediate,

(22:07):
but I can't tell yourealistically like what the time
frame was.
But it wasn't like adisrespectful amount of time.
No, it wasn't.
But I guess I'm just saying likeI can't dating someone like
seeing someone in a relationship, like after their spouse has

(22:27):
died, like it.
It can be tricky, even when youfeel, even when things you know
go good like.
You know what I'm saying.
Like, like I said, initially Iwas very shocked and then, as I
really like got to like seetheir relationship, I was really
really happy for him.
Sad, sad for me because myfriend is gone, but happy that
he doesn't have to spend therest of his life alone, because

(22:49):
he doesn't deserve that.

Jess (22:51):
He was a great husband to her.
Yeah, absolutely.

Nig (22:57):
The fact that Alex Cross is dating while still not over his
wife's death and not even justnot even over his wife like his,
his wife's death is just a hugeraw very present part of his
life but it's, it's in everybreath he takes.
You know what I'm saying?

(23:18):
Like I don't understand howhe's dating it.
I don't understand it.

Jess (23:22):
And this is the thing.
It's not.
Again, not thinking of whatwould be healthy, but thinking
of what, you see, men do, and Ido think a lot of men use women
to heal, whether or not theyconsciously know that that's
what they're doing.
That's what they do.
You know, whether it's justthat I need to feel better.
So this little feed of my egogives me a few minutes of
reprieve from what I'm feelingfrom losing my wife.

(23:44):
Whether it's for most men, Ithink it's a lot.
This is not the truth for Cross, because he does have his
grandmother in the house, butfor a lot of men, the reason why
I say they'll just move on andnot be over it is because they
want the functional things donethat their wife does.
But I don't think that themajority of them do this the
healthy way.
But they do move on quickly.

(24:05):
Not move on because move on isthe wrong word but they do start
dating and get intorelationships quickly.
That's more typical for menthan women.
They lose a spouse.

Nig (24:16):
So I want to say we talked about there are other people
grieving in the show and so Iwant to talk about them.
I want to say there is no goodexample of how to grieve in the
show.
There's no good example, I'mthinking, unless you want to use
, like the children and NanaMama, I feel like they they
grieve in a way.

(24:37):
That's fine, but oh yeah,that's true, nana Mama she lost
her daughter.

Jess (24:42):
At the end of the day she lost her.
Well, I assume that was hismom's mom.
I don't know if it was his momor his dad's mom.

Nig (24:46):
Oh, you're talking about Nana Mama, oh, when she lost her
daughter.
Yeah, oh, I really wasn'ttalking about it because we
really don't get to see orexperience that much of it.

Jess (24:59):
I know what you're talking about, but I'm saying she has
lost a child.
I don't know if she's themother of his mom or dad, but
she's lost a child.

Nig (25:09):
I feel like it's his mom.
Yeah, I was talking about hismom, but like I don't know and
eight child, I feel like it'shis mom.

Jess (25:13):
Yeah, I was asking mom, but I don't know.
There are people who never getover losing a child.
She's raised another child veryfunctionally and she's now
raising her grandkids.

Nig (25:25):
I'm not saying tired, but those are her great grandkids.

Jess (25:29):
Those are her great grandkids.
That's what I felt for her.
I was like dang, when are yougoing to get out of raising kids
?

Nig (25:36):
When are you going to take your break?
She must have been a young mamaalso, yeah, and I think her
daughter was a young mom too.

Jess (25:47):
I'm like, dang, you're right, that's the great grand
that she's raising, he's thegreat, he's the great, yeah,
he's the grandson.

Nig (25:54):
So so I guess, yes, you can say that Nana, mama and the
children you know show anacceptable path to grieving,
because you know what, like theythey are, they are still
dealing with their mom's death,but I feel like they kind of
face it more head on, you know,and they, they try to honor
their mom's death, but I feellike they kind of face it more
head on, you know, and they tryto honor their mom a lot.

(26:16):
If you see, like when the sonis his name Damon girl, I think,
so we're going to call himDamon Damon was wearing, like,
the mom's scarf, wanting to wearher watch to the recital.
You know they talk about herfavorite music a lot.

(26:40):
I feel like they try to honortheir mom and keep her memory
alive, so I think that'shonestly a very healthy degree,
I agree.
So I want to talk about EdRamsey, who spends a lot of time
in the show telling everybodythat his mom is dead and that
woman is very much alive, verymuch alive.
And so when you find out thathis mom is alive and they go

(27:00):
visit the mother, you find outthat she lost her daughter when
her daughter was a child and nowwe agree that Ed killed her,
right?
Yeah, because he said he woulddo anything to be an only child.
Now, when Alex discusses hissister's death with Ed Ramsey,

(27:26):
he talks about how, because ofthe sister's death, the mom
never, like the mom, withheldlove from him.
But if Ed killed the sister, hewas already having issues
before that.

Jess (27:41):
And the thing is, I think the mom knows that he killed the
sister, right?
Yeah, so then that makes moresense as to why she would
withhold love so he didn't killher.
You know what I mean?
Like he was already having yeah, he's already having issues
before.
He was already on this kind ofsociopathic path before because
he started with killing theanimals.
Um, he killed the sister.

(28:04):
And then how does the mom?
The mom doesn't seem to turnhim in, but she seems to know
that he did it because she, shesays, has he done something else
bad?

Nig (28:14):
Right, I feel like she treats him as if he's possessed
by a demon and she can pray itout Like she gets uber religious
.
She is uber religious, you knowwhat I mean.
And I feel like she's like, oh,it's right, because it's just
the devil, you know, and so, butshe still lives with the

(28:34):
daughter's death and it stopsher from functioning.
You know, that's true, we knowthat she was functioning and she
withheld from him, and so onceagain.

Jess (28:47):
Well, that's why I think Outcross's analysis is wrong,
where he's a bit off Because hedoesn't have the information
that he killed the sister.
He's right that he's become aserial killer because the sister
just died and after that hekilled the sister.
And then after that, the mom isdealing with both the grief and

(29:07):
death of her child, who shekind of makes it seem like she's
like a saint, you know, and itmay be because she died or what
have you and and the fact thather other child killed them
right.

Nig (29:18):
I wonder, though, if she already knew who he was before
he killed the sister.
Like knew that he had hisissues and probably like had a
better relationship with thedaughter.
He said that his mom never knewabout the birds.
Remember he said that she neverknew about the birds.
He said that to him, like mymom never knew about the birds.

Jess (29:45):
Maybe she still picked up on something wrong with this boy
.

Nig (29:47):
Yeah, you know your child, you know your child.
I think she picked up on anevilness in him and so probably
preferred the sister, whichmakes it worse.
You know what I mean, and soit's chicken and egg.
You know, alex thought that.
You know he was created, and no, he was born.
He was born.

Jess (30:09):
And I think that was important for Ramsey to let Alex
know no, I was born.
He was born, and I think thatwas important for Ramsey to let
Alex know.
No, I was born like this, Right?

Nig (30:14):
He's like no, this is me, baby.
Nobody controls my destiny butme.
I'm Birdfeet McGee.

Jess (30:20):
Not Birdfeet McGee.

Nig (30:23):
So once again we see the mom mishandling her grief
Because if she was functional,she would have turned her son in
for killing her daughter.
But you know, like you, you'retrying to pray the evil away,
you know, and not, I guess, notwant to feel like you've lost
both of your children.

Jess (30:43):
Maybe no, because I think she can't nothing about that boy
.
I, I don't.
I I think one of the thingsthat rsey does I don't think I
added S's to his name but Ramseydoes is that he preys on, like
social kind of capital, evenfrom young.
So he's blackmailing the kidwho knows that he's killing the

(31:04):
birds into being quiet by notexposing his father's affairs.
Right Well, his mother, I don'tthink she cares about that boy
at all.
She's very religious and whatwould it look like for her son
to have killed her daughter?

Nig (31:19):
Maybe this evil demon seed You're right, you're right,
you're right.
He's very good at playing thosesocial games.
Yeah, and he's also the blackmale king.

Jess (31:31):
I mean, he like basically a social strategist for, um uh,
politicians like he's.
I think he runs campaigns orsomething like that.

Nig (31:38):
I'm gonna be real with you I could never figure out what he
did like.
I just knew he knew.
Yeah, I knew he was in politicsbecause he was working with the
congresswoman or somethingcongresswoman, and then he said
something about runningsomebody's campaign.
Okay, I never could understandwhat he was doing and I'm like I
just know he got a lot of moneyand he has no scruples.

Jess (32:00):
No, not a scruple to be found.

Nig (32:03):
I'm like, okay, that's why he got a scruple.
Because he is scruple-less.
Also, I was really upset thatthe Congresswoman did not get
exposed.

Jess (32:13):
I was too.
You know what I'm going to say.
This this is making me want topunch her in the face a little
bit.
You know who your husband is.
You know that in this, the dirtthat Ramsey has on the
Congresswoman is that herhusband is a pedophile.
Why would you try to have achild with him?
Yeah, that's crazy.
You were going to extra lengthsto have a child with this man

(32:37):
that you already knew who he was.
That really, I'm like, yeah,that she didn't get.
I'm still hoping that maybe shewill get exposed in season two,
because we still got that FBIis going to get all the dirt she
so she's going to get thatinformation from bobby right
yeah that I was like okay, holdon, because this is my when.

Nig (33:00):
So the congresswoman.
There's a scene in the house.
She's oh, she's speaking thehouse.
That's crazy.
That's crazier.
So there's a scene where she'sat Ed Ramsey's birthday party.
Mind you, ed Ramsey is theserial killer and people don't
know he's a serial killer, buthe has this huge birthday party
of yours.
So she is at his birthday party.

(33:21):
She has snuck away fromeverybody and she's smoking a
cigarette.
First of all, that made me mad.
Why are you smoking in thatman's house?
That is wild, wild behavior,like where she she was outdoors.

Jess (33:37):
I don't think she was.
She was Because, think about it, when the girls, when she sees
the girls, like he's got one ofthose indoor-outdoor, she was in
like an outdoor space.

Nig (33:46):
I thought she was in like an indoor garden or something.

Jess (33:51):
It's a garden, which is why I assumed it's outdoors,
because, if you think about it,the girl he's kidnapped, shannon
, has run up to the glass andshe can't get out, so that is
outside.
She's trying to get outside andthe woman's on the other side
of the glass.

Nig (34:04):
So wait a minute because I just want to make sure you
understand.
She literally is smoking acigarette and she sees, like the
woman, that he's kidnapped andshe's one.
She stays there and watches thetwo of them fight it out it's a
change like if you were notgoing to get this woman out, I
would have ran you got thepolice chief upstairs that's

(34:29):
true, that is true, but sheknows that she can't expose
Ramsey because he knows too much.
You got the police chiefupstairs, that's true.
That is true In the house, butshe knows that she can't expose
Ramsey because he knows too muchabout her.
But why did you stay at theparty If you were outside
because you were smoking acigarette?
Why did you go back inside thehouse?
Because I would have gotten inmy car and left.
You're inside the party.

(34:50):
You went back inside in theparty and you're like so scared,
like you're shaking, and left.
You're inside the party.
You went back inside in theparty and you're so scared,
you're shaking and stuff.
Why?

Jess (34:57):
did you not go home?
Social conventions and socialnorms are a lot more important
than they are to us.
Think of who she is.
She is a politician.
It would have looked away ifshe had left and therefore
possibly angered Ramsey.
She's like, okay, I'm not goingto say anything and I'm going
to play this part.
That's a signal to him that I'mnot going to be a problem.

Nig (35:18):
That's wild to me.
I'm telling you that that iswhat he's good at.
She could have picked up ashe's in a garden.
She could have picked up a rockand broke the glass.

Jess (35:28):
That little woman was not going to do nothing to him and
he is not this huge, big, strong, strapping man.
She just was not about to donothing to him.

Nig (35:36):
The crazy guy extra strength Because he was because
he, because, like she wasfighting, like the woman he
kidnapped, she was giving herall, she was fighting him and he
is like he was handling herevery time, even when she was
not like a huge woman like shewould get the swipe of her hand.

Jess (35:52):
She's still not like a huge woman.
I know she's like a thin woman.
If any man in that series couldhave taken him out, yeah,
because the guy, all the menthat he took out, he took out by
sneak attack.
He drugged Amir and then theguy who was coming to fix the

(36:15):
house work on the house, he gothim from behind Toe to toe.
He went against no man.
So you got a little old womanwho is frail and already scared
because you got all this stuffon her.
And then you got this woman whois she's thin, she's not like a
frail.
You got this woman who is Imean, she's thin, she's not like
a frail, weak looking woman,but she's also.
There's a size differentialbetween the two of them.

Nig (36:39):
I don't know.

Jess (36:42):
Any male in that house could took him out.

Nig (36:45):
I, just when she took to watch that man like, attack her
and then drag her Girl, I wouldhave already been gone, gone as
soon as I realized I could notopen the door and he popped up
two feet.
You know how in Scooby Doothey're running and you see the

(37:05):
little that would have been me.
That would have been me, Iwould have beat feet so fast.
I don't care, straight to mycar, straight to my car.
There's no way, because youjust don't know.
If he's capable of that, he'scapable of anything.
But you know what?

(37:26):
Maybe she's desensitizedbecause her husband's a
pedophile and she knows it andhe's given her evidence of him
messing with very young childrenand she's like you know.
So maybe she's desensitized,you know, I don't know power.

Jess (37:44):
Power and money is more important than everything else
but back to our topic of grief.

Nig (37:49):
I know I went on a little tangent.
No, I definitely went on thattangent because that
Congresswoman, like thatsituation like really, really
irritated me.
But back to talking about grief.
The last person I want to talkto concerning grief is I want to
talk about Miss Nancy and Peterand Peter.

(38:17):
So in the show we find out thatum, alex Cross gives testimony
in a murder trial, um, whichgives a woman is it life in
prison?

Jess (38:22):
like I think so.

Nig (38:23):
Life in prison, but she ended up hanging herself yeah,
she ends up killing herself inprison because she um getting
really abused.
And her family which is not herblood family, it's her adopted
family they're really upset withCross and you find out at the
end of the show that they'veinfiltrated his life and that
they're the ones that arestalking.

(38:43):
And so what Miss Nancy, who isthe mom, is saying is that she
is so grief stricken that AlexCross took away her opportunity,
said that she was broken andunfixable, took away her life

(39:04):
and had her put in prison.
He had to pay for that becauseshe ends up killing herself.
She lost her daughter.
Now, what we learned for thefull story is the daughter never
had to pay for that, becauseshe ends up killing herself.
She lost her daughter.
Now, what we learned for thefull story is the daughter never
actually killed anyone.
It was the son that killedsomeone.
The mom convinces the daughterto take a rap because she
thought because she was like alittle young white girl with no

(39:26):
criminal record that she wouldget a slap on the wrist and move
on.
But this man was first of all.
This man was violently killed.

Jess (39:35):
He was violently killed.
That's a very good pointExtremely.

Nig (39:38):
He was there.
He was violently killed,extremely violent.
So when she said, oh, they'llprobably let you out in less
than a year, was she lying toherself or was she lying to her
daughter?

Jess (39:56):
Well, I think she believed that they would let her out in
less than a year.
The issue is more so that youdon't think that this boy needs
to be in prison for this violentmurder.
Like I do think she genuinelybelieved they're not going to
give this white girl with nopriors a real prison time,
genuinely believed they're notgoing to give this white girl
with no priors a real prisontime.
You know, she just couldn'taccount for what was going to
happen to her in prison and howshe was going to present and how
that happened.

(40:17):
So I think she believed thatshe wasn't going to get any time
.
But it's like the issue isreally like but he needs to be
in jail if he's committingviolent murders, and I guess
that's kind of a plot hole.
So if Deidre did not kill himon a date, which is what we were
led to believe, why?

Nig (40:31):
did Peter kill him?
I think he was robbing him.

Jess (40:35):
You think he was just robbing.
They never explained, though,like they never explained that.
They explained that he actuallydid it, but not why.
I don't think that he eveninteracted with the man.
This is a random man.

Nig (40:51):
I think that, yeah, I think he was robbing him and he
killed him.
They never said that, though.
No, they didn't say that.
That's what I assume, but I I'msorry.

Jess (41:01):
There's no reason for them to be connected.
That is a plot hole.
There's no reason for him to beconnected to that random man,
because the reason why it's soeasy to believe what Deidre is
is because it makes sense thatshe comes from a broken home,
doesn't have a family, that shewould be on a dating app and
then that would happen.
That makes sense.
There's no reason why Peter andthis man that he apparently
killed are connected.

Nig (41:22):
When you look at the details that the prosecutor
gives of the murder and you seethem reenact the murder on the
show with Deidre of the murderand like you see, like them, um,
reenact the murder on the showwith deidre committing the
murder.
Yeah, I think the man was liketied up and stuff.
That looked like a rock, itlooked like a robbery.

(41:44):
That's why I said it.
I think he was robbing himbecause, if you like, take out
the fact that it's a woman doingthose acts.
If you place a man in that samesituation, it's giving robbery.
You know what I'm saying, but Idon't.
I think the mom's logic ofusing the daughter was flawed

(42:09):
from the beginning.
Oh, I think it was flawed fromthe beginning.
Oh, I think it was flawed fromthe beginning, most definitely.
But my issue is I feel like sheputs an unnecessary amount of
blame on Alex also.
Hello, it doesn't make sense.

Jess (42:26):
Yes, Okay, you just disappeared.

Nig (42:29):
The last thing that you did too, but I just kept talking as
if you were still there.
I didn't know, you couldn'thear me.
No, I was saying I feel likethe mom placed an unnecessary
amount of blame on Alex.
Now do I agree with thetestimony that Alex gave?
No, I don't know like it didseem extremely harsh the

(42:50):
testimony that he gave, the waythat he talked about her.
It did seem unnecessarily harsh.
Hello, yes, hello.
I don't know why that'shappening.

Jess (43:06):
You said okay, you don't agree with the testimony that
alex gave.

Nig (43:08):
It seemed extremely harsh yes, like the way he was, like
oh, she's so broken, she can'tbe fixed.

Jess (43:17):
Like I'm like, honestly and that, and that's the line he
knows that he shouldn't havesaid.
I think that was just kind of amisspeak, but what I think he
should have said rather than shecan't be fixed, because you can
never determine that she's notsafe to be in the community is
more a correct line, I agree.

Nig (43:34):
I think he could have said that she's not safe to be in the
community.
Why don't we give her somecounseling and let's see if she
responds to it?
It was like that's what I'msaying, Like to me, the
testimony was characteristic ofhim.

Jess (43:48):
He's there to testify as to whether or not she can rejoin
the community, as in like do weneed to put her in jail or does
she need to be in somethingelse?
Like where do you think, or isthere a possibility of
rehabilitation?
And so he was like not enoughfor her to be safe in the
community.
And that's why I think the lineshould have been and I and he
knows that, he knows he misspoke, you know he realizes that's a

(44:12):
mistake like he's.
Like professionals are notperfect, we always get it right,
but like um, I think he, so Ithink um, it's more so she's not
safe to be in the community.
And then, yeah, there couldhave been some recommendations
there as to what would be properand safe for her, but he is
also not working with all theinformation because he thinks

(44:32):
that she did commit this murder.

Nig (44:34):
Right, I agree.
Also, deidre and Peter, herbrother, who actually committed
the murder, are writing allthese letters back and forth,
and Peter's like oh, I shouldjust confess, but why didn't you
?
She was in jail, she couldn'tstop you, right?
If it was really that important, elaborate stalking scam trying

(45:02):
to like, really destroy AlexCross's entire life because they
are grieving Dee Dee.
But I think that that's not.
I don't know that that's real,though I don't think that that's
real.

Jess (45:18):
Oh, I think that they are grieving.
They're absolutely grieving DeeDee, and I think they both did
think that she would get alighter sentence because all the
evidence that they have andthey understand enough of police
, again, it would make sense.
That's what usually happens forgirls like that.
What they did not account forand could not account for is how
being in prison was going tochange her to.
When she got there she didn'tappear like the innocent, sweet

(45:40):
little white girl, she was thebroken what have you because of
what was going on in the prisonand they couldn't account for
that.
But I think it is both a mix of, because it doesn't have to be
one thing.
They are absolutely grievingthe loss of her because both of
them did respond to her in afamiliar way, but they are also
both avoiding accountability fortheir own actions.

Nig (46:02):
Okay.
I think, maybe that's what Iwas trying to say.

Jess (46:04):
And blaming Alex Cross and hyper-focusing on Alex Cross
gives them a way to avoidaccountability for their own
actions.

Nig (46:12):
Because I'm like, peter, if you really feel that bad, why
didn't you tell them the truthbefore she hung herself, the
first time she got punched inthe face?
You could have literally wentin there and told the truth.
She got punched in the face.
You could have literally wentin there and told the truth.
But also, why didn't the momtell Peter what she did, that
she convinced her to go andconfess?

(46:33):
Because I'm like, why did Peterthink that she went and
confessed for him?

Jess (46:38):
like I don't know the goodness of her own heart, but
they did have this weird kind ofsick way too close.
You know't mean like theyrespond like their family,
family, but it's not in ahealthy way either.
No, it was because I wonder andI I don't think that this is
addressed or stated this, Ithink this is an assumption I'm
making that maybe miss nancycannot have children and that's

(47:00):
why she clings to them so muchLike they're her real children.
Because it's funny to me thatshe says once they get to the
cabin, she says to Elle, thosearen't your kids, but you're
responding to these kids thatare not your kids as if they are
.

Nig (47:15):
Yeah.
So it's another example of ifyou do not grieve properly.
But I think part of theirgrieving would be honestly
taking responsibility, becausePeter killed a man yeah, he
violently.
I think they said somethinglike he, was it 17 blows or

(47:36):
something like that.

Jess (47:37):
I don't know.
That's one of them times I hadto be like her hitting that
thing.
I was like I can't.

Nig (47:41):
So this is the thing, like once again, let's say, like they
came up with the story that shewas on a date.
When you were on a date andsomebody attacks you, you did
not hit them 17 times.
It doesn't make sense.
But like, peter is the one whocommitted the murder, miss Nancy
is the one who convinced DeeDee to take the fall for the
murder.
Yet they're blaming everythingthat happened on Alex.

(48:05):
But here's the thing she wasalready broken by the time Alex
met her, because she immediatelystarted getting abused in jail.
And yet they did punish the COwho was abusing her.
That's Brenda, who went afterAlex with the blanks in her gun,
didn't know she had blanks inher gun, but't know she had
blanks in her gun.
But I just feel like they had,I feel like they should have

(48:28):
dealt with her death, the rolesthat they had in her death, and
I think that maybe they couldhave gotten over it by now,
because this has been a whilenow.
Yeah, you know, I think it justgoes to show grief looks
different on different people indifferent situations, but if

(48:49):
it's not handled, it ultimatelybecomes like almost like
obsession, like everybody isobsessed with the person that
they lost and it's to theirdetriment.
No, one fully living in thepresent moment like nobody is
here and what's going on right?

Jess (49:04):
now yeah.

Nig (49:06):
And so I I really I think that was really interesting
because I'm it's very rare thatyou find a show that has, like
grief as a major plot point,where that's not all the show is
about.
You know what I'm saying.
Like I feel like, like I said,I feel like grief was like the
third plot point in the show isabout.
You know what I'm saying.
Like I said, I feel like griefwas the third plot point in the
show, but they weaved it inwhere it was Alex, but it was

(49:33):
also other characters, and youcan kind of see how it can rip
your life apart.
It can stop you from living.
You die when they die if youdon't move past it, you know,
because you stop progressing.

Jess (49:49):
Yeah, like you're stuck.
Definitely, Miss Nancy isdefinitely stuck.

Nig (49:55):
She's insane.

Jess (49:57):
Oh yeah.

Nig (49:58):
Like oh, also also, I feel like she was already insane.
She was insane that day shetold her to take the fall.
Because that was crazy then,and the way that she was like,
oh, they're gonna throw the bookat Peter yeah, before yeah, she
was already.
She was already, and that's whyshe eventually sets herself on

(50:23):
fire.

Jess (50:24):
She does.
I can't never be that mad at me.

Nig (50:27):
I can't either, I can't even, and so like she gets, so
like that's what I'm saying, Ithink that, like it was not, I
feel like to a certain extent itwas not about Dee Dee, because
she just it was about her.

Jess (50:42):
I think it would be all of it mixed.

Nig (50:43):
I don't think it has to be like she was like wanting to
kill the kids and Peter was like, hey, we never agreed to hurt
children.
She's like, no, he's got tofeel what I felt, he's got to
understand my feelings.
But it's like, ma'am, she wouldhave never been in that
position to even be hurt had younot told her to take the fall.
But somehow you've madeeverything about alex crossing,

(51:07):
about your pain, how you're sohurt.
You're so hurt.
And it was you.
You did it.
Yeah, so I don't know, she gota little, she got a little.
I feel like a little narcissismI don't know narcissism, but
there's.

Jess (51:20):
But there's something off.
There's definitely some kind ofissue, even like the way she's
a puppet master Well, therelationship that she crafted
with those two children and wedon't get to see a lot of it,
but what we know is that it hadto be unhealthy For you to be
able to get to the point whereyou can convince this girl to
take a fall for this guy thatshe's like.
I have no choice because that'smy brother and in her repeating

(51:41):
that line, family blood doesn'tmake you family Families who
love you.
Yeah, there's something offabout her.
I don't think I'm ready to callit narcissism, but there's
definitely something off.

Nig (51:52):
Well, what do cult leaders have?
It's given cult of three.

Jess (51:57):
Oh goodness.
Well, yeah, A lot of times theyare narcissists.
But yeah, I don't know.
I just don't feel like we'vegotten enough of that to see it
for me to feel comfortablesaying it.

Nig (52:05):
Yeah, that's because you actually know the real criteria,
and I'm just like I feel it inmy shoulder.

Jess (52:10):
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I don't
have enough information.
But again, that's why I crossedhis diagnosis.
It's wrong because he does nothave to correct help that You've
got her lying about being themurderer.
You know she comes from a birthand childhood because she has
no family.
But this woman and he doesn'teven know this woman exists.
So again, from his perspectiveas the professional, she has no

(52:32):
family at all, there's nosupport system.

Nig (52:37):
I'm just thankful no one has ever put me in that
situation, because the way Iwould have been like yes, yes,
nancy, nancy, I will do it andwent to the police station and
told them Everything that Peterdid Everything, the way I would
have went up there and sang andtold them that Miss Nancy was
trying to get me to take thefall suit.
So can you lock her up?
For that I'm not built.

(52:57):
I'm not built for that.

Jess (53:00):
And then to your point If she's cultivating these
relationships, people who are insome way a predator and I don't
mean predator as in sexualpredator, but like you're
praying with people, they knowwho- to pick.

Nig (53:13):
That's very true, because Ramsay did the same thing, in
the sense that he would findpeople's weaknesses and he would
use those to get them under histhumb, like how he found the
lady who wanted to have a baby,which also I feel like that was
crazy, one of the dumbest things, I think because I'm like

(53:36):
what's the point of having ababy?

Jess (53:37):
You're not going to be able to raise it, you're not
going to be able to be pregnant,even though you might have
thought you got away with it,you knew that was a risk and so
it does not make sense.

Nig (53:45):
If you were going to turn yourself in anyway, why didn't
you turn yourself in before youshot that man in the head?

Jess (53:51):
Because you turned yourself in the next day,
basically One day before I can'tdo this, let me go ahead and
turn myself in.
Before you've committed murderand now you're going to jail for
a long time and you will neversee this child again, right, and
your child is going to be bornin prison.

Nig (54:06):
Honestly, if you had not committed that murder, yeah, you
would have probably got sometime, but not on the level.
But also and I'm saying this assomeone who desperately wanted
to have a child like giving upyour freedom to have a child
does not make sense.
When you can just baby, justadopt, at this point, why do you

(54:28):
have to carry the baby?
If you want a baby, that badlike this is going to sound
terrible.
There are a lot of countriesyou can go to and buy a baby you
said buy a baby, no you knowwhat it is.
You know they're like you cancall.
They call it whatever they want.
They're buying children.
You know I don't.
You know they're like you cancall.
They call it whatever they wantthey're buying children.

Jess (54:46):
You know I you know how I feel about international
adoption.
No matter what, it does notmake sense for you to go through
all this work to have a babythat you're not going to be able
to raise and be a part of theirlife right, right, and I don't
care what she was saying.

Nig (54:57):
When she asked tujon to be the godfather, that's how she
was trying to be manipulative.
She tried to come back andclean it up and was like no,
that's what I was saying,because I knew.
No, ma'am, you knew he had youdead to rights and so you had no
choice but to turn yourself in.
But had that man not come, youwould not have said anything.
You knew exactly what you weredoing.

(55:19):
You were playing on that man'sfeelings when you asked him to
be that tough, you know, likewhatever.
But yeah, I just thought I'mlike man, that price was a
little low.
A baby, a baby, that price wasway too low, way too low.

Jess (55:39):
Y'all ain't got no health insurance.

Nig (55:42):
She said they use their health insurance, they use all
of their savings listen you aretrying to force your body at
that point to do something itdon't want to do.
Let it go, baby.
Let it go and figure outanother way.
There's a baby on earth thatneeds you.
Go buy it.

(56:03):
That's what they're buyingchildren.
I'm not going to sugarcoat it.
You know how I feel aboutinternational adoption.
They are buying children.

Jess (56:12):
I'm going to adopt somebody within the United
States and they're still buyingchildren to you.
Okay, I'm going to let that go.

Nig (56:21):
You know, I did my research because there was a time where
I'm like, oh well, if I can'thave a child, maybe I should
adopt.
And after doing my research Isaid I can't participate in this
, I can't participate in this.
So you know, but?
And that ends our discussion ongrief.

(56:43):
And that ends our discussion ongrief.
Oh gosh, we went so many places.
We did.
We got everything that wewanted to discuss when it comes
to grief.
We just took some side streets.
Also, we took some detours.

Jess (57:01):
Definitely we did, but thank you for going on this road
with us.

Nig (57:05):
Yes, I hope you guys enjoyed it, and if you have any
questions, just send us an emailor comment down below and we
will respond, no problem.
But we want to see you in thenext episode.
It's going to be a really goodone, because we're going to be
talking about Alex Cross and hisrelationships, and so you guys
you're're going to be talkingabout Alex Cross and his
relationships, and so you guysyou're not going to want to miss

(57:27):
it.
So we'll see you next time.
See you next time, bye.