May 13, 2025 • 55 mins
Welcome to our deep dive into the Mossbacher family dynamics from HBO's "The White Lotus." Behind the pristine facade of wealth and privilege lies a family at war with itself.
Nicole Mossbacher, a tech CEO who's broken glass ceilings, can't seem to win respect from her own household. Her husband Mark experiences a classic case of male fragility – resentful of his wife's success while enjoying its benefits. Meanwhile, their daughter Olivia performs revolutionary politics while vacationing at a luxury resort her mother's capitalism paid for. The hypocrisy would be comical if it weren't so painful to watch.
What truly captivates is how the show exposes privilege as a poison rather than a cure. The Mossbachers have everything materially, yet they're emotionally bankrupt. Their son Quinn, possibly on the spectrum, finds genuine connection with Hawaiian paddlers only to have his parents dismiss it outright. Paula, Olivia's "friend," manipulates a resort worker into a doomed theft attempt, revealing how even those critiquing systems of oppression can perpetuate harm when operating from privilege.
The genius of the Mossbacher storyline lies in its uncomfortable truths. We witness how the wealthy can take emotional and cultural resources from those with less while remaining oblivious to the damage they cause. Their accommodations drama – cramming three young adults into a shared space despite their means to afford separate rooms – perfectly symbolizes how they prioritize convenience over care.
By the vacation's end, the family achieves a superficial reconciliation that costs others dearly. It's a perfect metaphor for privilege itself: comfort for some built upon sacrifice from others. Join us as we unpack these fascinating dynamics that make "The White Lotus" such a brilliant exploration of class, family, and the price of paradise.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Niq (00:00):
Hi guys, welcome back to our discussion of season one of
the White Lotus.
This is next episode with yourhost, Niq and Jess.
And so I want to talk aboutanother set of guests.
I feel like framing like ourdiscussions around the guests is
like an easier way because wecan kind of bring in the workers
(00:23):
that way.
And so I want to discuss likethe family next is like an
easier way because we can kindof bring in the workers that way
, and so I want to discuss, likethe family.
Jess (00:34):
Next, the Mossbacher family.
Girl, you a good one, I wroteit down.
I had no clue.
Okay, so a lot of interestingfamily dynamics there.
So the Mossbacher family islike a super rich Well, they're
all rich, but this woman's likea driven career woman, she's
like CEO of a company.
Niq (00:51):
I want to say she's the CEO of a search engine called Poof.
Jess (00:56):
And then the family consists of her husband, her son
, a daughter and her daughter'sfriend, who comes along with
them on vacation.
Niq (01:04):
Yes, and so what is interesting is you would think
that, okay, they're going onthis vacation I think it's like
they're supposed to be spendinglike two weeks initially.
I believe in like thisbeautiful resort in Hawaii and
you would think that everybodywould be like really happy and
(01:24):
really excited like from thevery beginning, like these
people are almost on the line ofdepressed.
Jess (01:32):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, they're miserable.
Um, the daughter isunnecessarily bitchy to me, like
she really has an issue withher, like that bothered me.
I I'm like cause you've?
You've clearly this.
They've been given everything.
They've grown up with money.
Our mom does everything, evento the point of paying for your
(01:52):
friend to come on vacation whichyou have no value of, but like
that's a big deal for this kindof expensive behind resort and
she's just so nasty to her mom.
There seems like there's somemarital tension between the
couple and then the son.
I don't think they explicitlystated whether or not he is on
the spectrum, but it's possiblyon the spectrum.
Niq (02:16):
I agree, he's got something going on.
Jess (02:18):
There's something going on there, and so then there's
tension between him and thesister.
The sister pretty much hateseveryone but the dad and her
friend.
Niq (02:31):
I would argue that she doesn't like her friend either.
Jess (02:33):
Not fully.
Oh yeah, not for real, it's ahuman frenemy.
Niq (02:36):
So Nicole, who is the mom, she's like the CEO and she's on
family vacation, but she's stilldoing things.
She's still working takingshe's still doing things.
She's still working takingphone calls, like doing emails,
and I know that bothers thedaughter I don't know if it
bothers the husband, but itdefinitely bothers the daughter
(02:58):
and the son is oblivious towhat's going on completely.
Jess (03:02):
I don't know why it bothers the daughter.
She doesn't want to spend timewith her mom.
I think she just wants to pointout anything that she could see
as a flaw.
Niq (03:09):
Honestly, yes, this is what I think when it comes to the
mother-daughter relationship.
Her mom is insanely successfuland I don't think that her
daughter feels like she cancompete with the things her mom
has achieved and so she'sdecided to opt out, and that's
(03:30):
why I feel like she's soanti-capitalist.
She's so not really, no, but inher stance, when it comes to her
mom, she's like anti-capitalistand, you know, super leftist,
and you know we need to teardown all these systems of
oppression.
She's like anti-capitalist andsuper leftist and we need to
tear down all these systems ofoppression.
Jess (03:50):
While she's enjoying all the benefits of the system of
the oppression.
Niq (03:54):
And all the benefits of capitalism.
Exactly, it's superficial.
Jess (04:00):
It is so superficial.
Niq (04:01):
It's not well thought out.
Jess (04:02):
There's a lot of buzzwords , A lot of holeswords and you
know, but I honestly A lot ofholes in her theories.
Niq (04:08):
Right, and I really honestly think it's because,
like, she doesn't feel like thatshe can keep up with her mom's
accomplishments, and so she'sdecided I'm just going to opt
out and make you know, in orderto make myself feel better.
I'm going to tear her downBecause that's one of the things
that, you see, make myself feelbetter.
I'm going to tear her downBecause that's one of the things
that you see, her name isOlivia.
Olivia tears everybody down,everybody, and you can only do
(04:33):
that when you hate yourself Tobe that committed to being so
destructive to other people.
That's because you hateyourself and you want everybody
else to be in this much painthan you are.
Yeah.
Jess (04:45):
Yeah, I think.
I think there's an air ofresentment between, like with
everybody, but the son.
The son is just kind ofoblivious to a lot, but like
both the dad and the daughter,like they benefit from and they
enjoy all the fruits of themom's labor, but they heavily
resent her for it.
Niq (05:04):
A thousand percent.
A thousand percent.
The husband whose name is Mark.
Does Mark work?
That's a good question.
I'm not sure.
I'm quite sure he does work,but it's very clear that he's
not as successful and that thewife makes the majority of the
money and he does feelemasculated by that.
(05:27):
He does feel resentful of that.
You find out that he actuallycheated on her and I honestly
think that that was like himwanting to feel like he was
getting back at her for herbeing successful.
Yeah, agreed, which is so?
It's such a weird thing and ithonestly it's.
It's common and I it's commonit's common.
(05:50):
But at the same time I'm likedon't we hate this story?
Like don't we hate thesuccessful woman who can't be
domestic, and you know so.
She emasculates her husband andI don't even think she's
actively trying.
She does not emasculate herhusband, he feels emasculates
her husband, and I don't eventhink she's actively trying.
Jess (06:05):
She does not emasculate her husband.
He feels emasculated right,which I honestly feel like is
more accurate, because a lot oftimes, like and when men are in
these situations, they act likethe woman is is doing something
to them.
Now don't get me wrong, the momis not a saint.
She got her own problems, butlike she's not emasculating him,
he just feels emasculated andhe takes it out on her.
Niq (06:29):
Right and I'm just like well, if having a woman who is
strong and successful bothersyou, why not go and find someone
else who's not strong andsuccessful?
No, you won't have all of thebenefits of the things that she
provides, but you will have, Iguess, that feeling of
masculinity that you desire yeah, but you won't have that
(06:50):
lifestyle either, right?
Because I'm like, I thinkthat's, I'm sorry.
Jess (06:56):
I think that's.
The frustrating thing for me isthat neither him nor the
daughter, with all theircomplaints, will give up the
lifestyle like both of you could.
She could also up.
The daughter could opt outcomplaints.
Will give up the lifestyle,like both of you could.
The daughter could opt out ofthe money.
She could do things on her own.
So she is anti-capitalist andbelieves and go live in a hovel
and do whatever.
He could leave and go take careof a woman who is not as
(07:20):
successful as him and feel likethe man.
But they won't.
Niq (07:24):
Right Because I just I'm like I him and feel like the man
.
But they won't right because I,just I I'm like I don't feel
like she's the wife is happy.
I don't feel like nicole ishappy in the marriage.
I don't feel like mark is happyin the marriage.
So I'm like why are you guys,why, why are you doing this?
He doesn't appreciate thethings that you know you're
doing to provide for the family.
Like you guys aren't connectingbecause she's so focused on,
(07:48):
like her career that she's notcreating time and space for them
to connect, even with her kids.
You know, like she's socommitted to financially taking
care of them that she's notthere for them emotionally.
Even the way she talks aboutthe son when she's like, oh, you
(08:09):
know it's so hard for young menhis age, you know they're now
at the bottom of the totem pole,like all of that, and I'm just
like, listen, that is not thereason why your son acts the way
that he's acting.
Jess (08:24):
We're going to ignore the young white man, and that's
where the mom is alsoproblematic.
Niq (08:30):
Yes, she's.
She is problematic because,first of all, what she's saying
is complete BS.
But let's assume for amicrosecond that what she is
saying is true.
That is still not the reasonwhy your son is having the
issues that he has.
That man needs some like heneeds like a support person.
He needs like somebody teachinghim life skills.
(08:54):
He needs socialization like hedoesn't have any of.
He has no friends.
He couldn't bring a friend onthe trip.
That's not because he's a whiteman and because people are
seeking equity.
Something is wrong with him.
He's missing something andyou're not paying him enough
attention.
You're not giving him what heneeds and that's not just her
(09:15):
job, it's his father's job too.
But they are their children.
As parents, they're notparenting their kids.
They're just like financiallytaking care of them, but they're
not like actually looking intotheir needs.
(09:35):
Their daughter is a drug addict.
Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
She's a drug addict and she'smiserable.
I think she may even have apersonality disorder like she's
at.
I think she may even have apersonality disorder.
She's, at the very least, a big, big bitch.
Jess (09:51):
She's a big, big bitch.
Niq (09:52):
And you're not helping her to develop morals and values and
actually care about people.
Jess (09:59):
No, she's not.
I'm going to be honest with youand this is going to make me
the best person.
If I was a mom, I would leavethem all Except for the son,
honestly, because, like, the sonjust needs some support and
structure that he's not getting.
But them other two.
If I make your life somiserable, have at it, hoss.
Niq (10:22):
I would definitely like cut them off financially.
Jess (10:27):
And I'm like, honestly.
Honestly, the way that thedaughter talks to her mom is so
freaking evil that I would likecolleges on you.
Whatever you do, after you knowwhat, you ain't got to deal
with none of my capitalism.
I'm taking all of my capitalismand go with someone else.
I'll put my son in the program.
We gonna figure this issue out,but you and your daddy, y'all
(10:49):
have fun.
Niq (10:49):
The funny thing is I would cut her off financially but
still try to talk to her andspend time with her.
I would.
The point I want to prove isthat you don't really want me
emotionally or financially.
You just want something tocomplain about, to give yourself
like more depth.
So you're not a spoiled littlerich girl, you're a
(11:11):
revolutionary who does all thespoiled little rich girl things.
Jess (11:25):
I would at least want to cry All the spoiled little rich
girl things.
I would at least want to cryPeople who don't have as much
money To me.
I'm like as much as you pretendto be anti-capitalist.
Niq (11:43):
You still judge people who you see as poorer than you,
absolutely, absolutely,absolutely, absolutely so.
Okay, so, breaking down likeeach person and and why they are
a miserable, entitled person.
Um, so, nicole it, she's a ceoand she meets rachel, who is one
of the other guests.
Um, rachel is part of, like,the married couple and they're
(12:05):
on their honeymoon, and soRachel introduces herself.
They have what starts out to beactually a really good
conversation, and then Rachelmentions that she wrote a
profile on her and Nicole getsso nasty and I was kind of
(12:26):
shocked by that but wasn't theprofile like a hit piece?
Jess (12:34):
what was it?
Or did she say something crazyin the profile?
Niq (12:37):
but Rachel didn't see it like that one, which I thought
was weird.
Rachel said that she wasrepurposing a profile that
somebody else did, and I'm likethat one, which I thought was
weird.
Rachel said that she wasrepurposing a profile that
somebody else did, and I'm likethat's weird.
Why wouldn't you write your ownpiece?
right, but the but the but she Idon't think rachel saw it as a,
(12:59):
as a hit piece.
She thought that she was likewriting a nice profile and
because she was basing it onsomething she got from a more
prestigious newspaper, she wascaught off guard when Nicole was
like I hate you.
Jess (13:15):
She was, and I wish I could remember the exact phrase
that Nicole was responding to,because I remember when she said
it.
I was like why did you evenapproach her If you said that to
her about her.
Niq (13:25):
I can't remember.
She said she rode the Me Toowave.
I think it was something likeshe rode the Me Too wave.
Jess (13:33):
Okay, Let me tell you why.
I would be pissed about thattoo, Because you're basically
discounting all the hard workand everything that I've done to
be successful.
I just happen to be in theright place at the right time
when clearly you see how hardthis woman works and I'm sure to
break in as a CEO at that levelin a tech space.
She has been working for yearsbefore she really took off.
(13:54):
So to say, I wrote the me toowave.
I would.
I'm like I knew it wassomething.
I would have been pissed too.
Two things can be true no, no,no.
It could be true that maybe theMe Too situation happened and
it moved a man out the way andopened up space that I could be
promoted, but I did not ride theMe Too wave.
(14:15):
That man got kicked out of hisjob because he couldn't keep his
hands to himself, and that'sdifferent.
Don't act like you don't meanto me.
Niq (14:21):
I do feel like she was discounting her success act like
you know to me, I do feel likeshe was discounting her success.
I've when I.
What I took a when she said itwas that this woman had all had
already been doing the work anddoing the work for a long time,
and the me too movement createdan opportunity for her to
finally move up to a space thatshe already deserved.
(14:41):
I, because I just know I guessthat's how and that's not how
Nicole took it either, but Ithink I'm trying to give Rachel
some grace on how she could havewritten it and not realize that
the woman was offended becauseshe was looking.
I think she was looking at itdifferently.
She's looking at it like oh, meToo allowed women to get the
(15:06):
opportunity that they hadn'tgotten before, not because it
was undeserved, but becausethey're already going to look at
men.
But you know, that's what I'msaying.
Jess (15:17):
Nicole is a mess, but I would have took that the same
way.
Niq (15:21):
Right, but I don't like.
That's what I'm saying.
Two things can be true likenicole could be offended because
she felt like she was sayingthat she didn't work hard to get
there.
And rachel can be shockedbecause she was saying, like
you're finally like me too isallowing you to finally get the
place that you deserve.
You know what I'm saying?
(15:43):
Yeah, but I just like it wasjust how quickly Nicole went
from like girl power, womensupporting women, encouraging
her to be like I hate you.
Jess (15:54):
Mm-hmm, In two seconds.
Again, I feel like I'mdefending Nicole more than I
want to, because I don'tnecessarily like her either, but
like no, because like, yeah,I'm girl power, so I feel like
you are not.
You know what I mean.
You know what I mean.
Like if you are trying to makeit seem like, and like I said, I
would take it the same way.
So I'm like you're trying tomake it seem like I didn't
(16:15):
really deserve my success, Ididn't work to get where I was,
or I was, you know, somehowriding a wave of something that
had nothing to do with me.
You know what I mean.
Like the me too, like it hadnothing to do with me.
Niq (16:28):
So I'm going to tell you who Nicole is Like.
Nicole is one of those womenwho are like all about success,
all about like power, power, allabout women need equality and
doors opened, as until they walkthrough and then the door can
close.
Because for her to make thatcomment, being upset about
(16:53):
saying that the woman wrote the,she wrote the me too movement,
but also saying it's hard forwhite, young white men, lets me
know, that she does not like.
Like you love hillary clinton,right, so you like, but you
really don't care about peoplewho are not like you and, and
listen, I can agree.
Jess (17:14):
I don't get that from that comment because I'm like, like
I said, if I I would, I feellike she would have, she would
have been willing to help theother girl and she would have
been like girl power with herwhich, again, to be honest and
fair, is another white woman um,until she felt like attacked by
her and I'm like I can't saythat I would have acted
differently, because if I feellike you're trying to attack me,
then yeah, no, I'm not gonnahelp you in any way or be a
(17:35):
mentor or be you know.
No, we got issues, we got beef,but agreed in the sense of like
she's not pulling up women ofcolor, she's not pulling up
anybody else, she just wantswhite women to have equality to
white men.
Niq (17:53):
Right, like she doesn't like that's what I'm saying.
Her equality extends to her,and then that's where the line
is drawn To doesn't like?
That's what I'm saying.
Her equality extends to her,and then that's where the line
is drawn, to say that like, oh,it's so hard for young white men
who have always had privilege,every privilege.
What is it?
Isn't there a quote that saysequality can feel like
(18:15):
oppression, like when you'venever like experienced it before
, like when you've neverexperienced it before, when
you've never experienced.
You know what I'm saying andthat's what it is.
It's like, oh, she feels so badfor her son that he might
actually have to compete againstpeople and not get that extra
push that comes from being arich white male.
And so she's like looking athim and knowing her son cannot
(18:39):
compete because something iswrong with him.
Jess (18:43):
She's like give him sympathy.
Niq (18:45):
No, you give him resources.
Jess (18:47):
Okay, it's when you're accustomed to privilege,
equality feels like oppression.
Niq (18:51):
Thank you.
Yes, so yeah, but yeah.
So.
I dislike Nicole as a person,but I feel like the way her
family treats her is insane andnobody deserves to be treated
like that yeah, and that's why Iwould be like I'm cutting my
losses but when she got, likewhen she left the boat, crying
(19:14):
like I, I honestly felt reallybad for her.
Jess (19:17):
I feel so bad for felt so bad for her, and that's the
thing.
That's the two sides of it.
It's because, again, I don'tthink that she's a good person
either, but I did feel bad forher and I didn't want the
husband to go after her.
I was like, no, let her have amoment, just let her have a
moment.
She needs to be away from y'all.
Niq (19:39):
Get your behind on herself, because none of you, you all-
and take every single moment tolet her know that you do not
want to be bothered with her.
Right like the husband'sselfishness.
So he's already like committedadultery.
Right, he's committed adulteryand she has forgiven him, but
she's still not over.
There's still some hurt thereand the the thing that she asked
for in that situation is tokeep it between the two of them
(20:00):
and not involve the children.
The husband has an identitycrisis because he finds out that
his dad was closeted and heends up dying of AIDS.
And he thought his dad died ofcancer, like when he was like 15
.
This man is clearly pushing 50and he spirals and somehow that
(20:23):
spiral spirals into him, likedivulging to the son that he
cheated on his mom and that topay her back he bought her a
$75,000 bracelet.
Jess (20:36):
Yeah, probably for with her money he specified $75,000
bracelet.
Yeah.
Niq (20:39):
Probably with her money, but also it was not with his.
He specified I spent my ownmoney on it.
Jess (20:44):
Oh, he did say that.
Niq (20:46):
He did.
But this is immediately what Ithought.
The reason why you have $75,000to spend on that bracelet is
probably because she's payingthe living expenses, true, you?
Jess (20:57):
know what I'm saying?
Niq (20:57):
I don't believe you guys are going 50 50 and you bought
her that 75 000 by your slave.
So in a sense, she's stillpaying for it because she's
paying for your lifestyle.
But it's I and so like the thedad's identity crisis.
It it's like he's like I didn'tknow the real truth about my
(21:19):
father and I don't feel like I'ma good father.
So I need to try to find a wayto connect with my son.
Jess (21:27):
And I would say this on on his face I get him that that
find out the truth about hisfather throwing him and him
having to reconcile with that.
Because I think, like to me,the daughter focused on like or
just kind of brush past it.
He's like, oh, it's okay thathim having to reconcile with
that, because I think, like tome, the daughter focused on like
or just kind of brush past it'slike, oh, it's okay that your
dad was gay.
I'm like, he's not.
It's not just about that.
He found out that he didn'treally know his father, like he
thought he knew his father.
(21:48):
I'm like.
But like and let's not glossover the fact that he's also
reconciled like his dadessentially cheated on his
mother, their entire marriage,you know what I mean.
Like it's a lot.
It's not just about him findingout that his father was gay.
You know, I'm like.
It's like I did not know thisman.
Now he then takes it to a weirdplace when he talks to Armand.
(22:09):
But yeah, he does.
But I do understand thatthrowing him.
Niq (22:14):
He had an idea of who his father was and he measured
himself up against that hiswhole life, right, and so
finding out that he didn't knowhis dad at all, he kind of lost
his bearing on.
Well, who am I if I've alwayscompared myself to who I thought
(22:35):
he was?
If he's not the person that Ithought he was, then I no longer
know who I am and how do Imeasure myself?
That part I absolutely get.
Yes, and I feel like thedaughter was very disrespectful
because she was trying to makeit about like homophobia and I
don't.
(22:56):
It wasn't about homophobia, itwas about sense of identity.
Yeah, you know.
Jess (23:03):
And it's a little bit in there, but it was such the it it
wasn't in the conversation hewas having with her.
Niq (23:10):
I feel like the homophobia came out more so in the
conversation he was having withArmand but like it was, like if
I don't know that it, I don'tknow that the, I don't know that
the dad might be the wrong term, but it's incredibly invasive.
Jess (23:26):
The question he asked our mom and you have no business
asking anybody that that you'renot like it would be different
if that was your homie, like ifyou, if you and a person were
close friends.
Sometimes close friends haveweird conversations but you
don't notice man.
Niq (23:44):
Right, that is incredibly invasive.
That comes back to the pushingboundaries.
They push a lot of these guests, these VIP guests.
They expect to be treated acertain way and they feel like
they can push boundaries because, yeah, like he asked Armand if
(24:05):
basically anal sex was,enjoyable and what is most
hilarious about that situationis Armand did not get offended
by the question at all.
Armand was like get offended bythe question at all.
Armand was like, oh, you'reinterested, do you want to find
out?
And the guy's like no, no.
But Armand like from that pointon, from that point on,
(24:32):
armand's like I'm going to getyou.
Jess (24:38):
I think he was.
Niq (24:42):
Armand's response to that question is my favorite part of
the show.
It was so hilarious.
But I can't even fault Armand,because that's a wild question
to ask.
We don't know each other, right?
We're just at a bar talking andyou're all of a sudden asking
me how anal sex feels like,clearly knowing that I'm not
heterosexual like you.
You I feel like okay.
(25:03):
So you know how, like in somelike there was like a time where
it was not okay to be gay andso in order to like find
partners and things like that,like gay people would like they
would use innuendo and secretcodes and all of that stuff to
try to find a partner withoutfully exposed.
And I'm like I feel like Armandwas thinking that maybe that's
(25:25):
what Mark was trying to do, sohe's like well, I'm going to let
you know that I'm interested.
Even in front of his family,armand was like let me know, you
can get it.
And even the family picked up.
Yeah, that was hilarious,that's a little weird, yeah that
(25:47):
.
Jess (25:47):
That was.
Niq (25:50):
That was my favorite part of the show so, yeah, I don't,
like I said, I don't know thathis question was necessarily
rooted in homophobia, but Ithink it necessarily rooted in
homophobia, but I think it wasrooted in the why was this?
Oh, a thousand percent it wasinappropriate, but why was this
thing more important than me andmy mom and our family?
I think it's what he was.
(26:13):
I think it was what he wastrying to question, because he
felt like his dad doing thatlike was more important somehow
took away from.
He felt like his dad doing thatlike was more important,
somehow took away from his dadbeing his dad and being there
for him because he had thesecret life and he ended up
dying because of it.
And I just think that that's ofcourse.
He just got this information,so he's trying to figure out all
of his feelings that you didnot know and the fact that you
(26:37):
had all of these fond memoriesof your dad should let you know
that he did not choose thelifestyle over you.
It was just a component thatyou did not know about.
Jess (26:47):
Maybe he can get to that one day.
I don't know.
I can't get past the fact thatyou are still in a relationship
with my mom.
You've taken my mom essentiallyoff the market and taken her in
a place where she never gets achance to find love and you are
exposing her because the otherthing is like okay, you now know
(27:10):
your dad died of AIDS.
Did he expose your mom?
Did they stop sleeping?
You know what I mean.
Niq (27:14):
Right.
We don't know enough about themom to know what from her
perspective.
We don't know what she hadgoing on on the side.
We don't know anything aboutthat.
Jess (27:26):
And I don't know if his mom is dead too, but, like to me
, all of that would be runningthrough my head Like, oh my God,
so you've exposed my mom tothis.
You know what I mean.
I just feel like his breakdownwas understandable and like it
would get, but where he wouldhave stepped too far was the way
he was talking to our mom andalso revealing that situation
(27:49):
that the mom wanted privateright to his son, but even the
way he was talking about histalking to his son too, like
because he also fed his son thatemasculation BS.
And to the point where you couldtell because his son too, like
because he also fed his son thatemasculation bs.
And to the point where youcould tell because his son
parented it back and you couldtell I'm like, oh, so they're
training him to think that he'ssomehow oppressed because he's a
white man yes, yes, I told you,they are terrible parents
(28:15):
they're terrible.
Yeah, and I'm like, and I'm likethe son already has issues
connecting with people andyou've already set him up to
believe that successful womenare emasculating to men right, I
do actually want to talk aboutthe son next and I have a very
(28:37):
controversial take that I willtell you when we discuss this.
Niq (28:41):
So, quinn, he seems to be like he's like 16 and he didn't
have a friend that he couldbring on the trip and he spends
way too much time on his phoneand like playing, like video
games, and he really doesn'tknow how to exist like out in
the real world.
But he also his sister, likereally doesn't know how to exist
like out in the real world, buthe also his sister, like he
(29:02):
doesn't have a good relationshipwith his sister, like his
sister is mean His sister isevil, like she has no empathy
for him at all.
None, none.
And I just think that that isvery, very strange, like I know
that not every siblingrelationship, not every sibling
group is super close, but likeshe never really, you never
(29:25):
really see her show him anykindness, none.
Jess (29:29):
None, and it's very very odd.
But she doesn't show anybodyany kindness.
But she's particularly harshwith him and the mom.
She's harsh with the and themom, she's harsh Right.
Niq (29:41):
Right and I can't.
I can't understand it, but myquestion is he's 16 and he's
acting like this.
I don't understand why hisparents have not intervened and
done something, some kind ofintervention with him.
Jess (29:54):
Yeah, I cannot understand and I know this is a minor point
With all the money they have,why did they get them separate
rooms?
Niq (30:02):
No, that is a huge.
It's not a minor point, it's ahuge point.
That room, the room situationdoes not make sense.
She is a CEO.
Why would you get a suite withone bedroom and three children?
Would you get a suite with onebedroom and?
Jess (30:19):
three children, three adult size children, like
they're like 16.
The two girls are in collegebut they're all physically
adults right, exactly?
Niq (30:28):
and they're all not girls.
Like there's a guy, a 16 yearold boy and with your daughter's
teenage like, like it doesn'tmake sense.
There should have been, at thevery least, one more bedroom, at
the very least.
Jess (30:46):
I could not understand that you could have put them on
the couch but, like you,definitely should have had them
girls in a separate bedroom.
The daughter alludes to this,and I've seen this with other
people on the spectrum, so Idon't know if he's had this
issue in the past or if she'sjust being mean because she's
just so freaking mean, but shejust alludes to him being
(31:07):
inappropriate in front of thefriend, which sometimes you
don't have.
You know, you don't know thesocial rights or wrongs, like
you will be, but to me that waslike the most genuine concern.
She just didn't know how toexpress it or the mom just
wasn't willing to receive it,but I'm like, no, you absolutely
should not expect the three ofthem to be in the same place
overnight.
The girl needs to change, she,you know, and that's not his
(31:29):
sister right, I, yeah, I couldnot understand that.
Niq (31:33):
I think that that was the weirdest thing ever because once
again, this woman is a ceo, soat the even if they they did not
have a suite with two bedrooms,she could have gotten the girls
a separate room, their collegeage, they can be in their own
(31:53):
room.
Yeah I could not.
I could not for the life of mefigure it out.
I'm like her mom is so type A,like her mom.
You know what I'm saying.
Like I don't understand howthis is like the living
situation we ended up with.
Yeah, it did not make sense.
Jess (32:09):
He didn't have to like sleep in the kitchen with no air
conditioning, oh my god, andthat's because his sister put
him in the kitchen.
Niq (32:18):
The mom was like they can all sleep out here.
Why are you a CEO and you gotyour son sleeping on a roll away
?
Mmhmm, and he's like not achild, he's 16.
Jess (32:28):
He's a big 16, like he's.
Niq (32:30):
He's like the size of a grown man right, if it was so
cool, why didn't you put thegirls in the bedroom and you and
your husband slept on the couchwith your son?
You know what I'm saying.
If that's, if that's, if thatwas a cool living situation.
Jess (32:44):
Yeah, that never made sense to me, like I definitely
feel like the girls should havehad their own room and then the
daughter complained and the momjust completely discounted her
and that's, and I'm like, andagain, the daughter is such a
bitch.
It's hard, you know.
I mean you kind of understandsometimes, but in that moment
that was the one time where Iwas like, no, her complaint is
valid.
Her complaint is valid.
(33:04):
Like no, she's trying toprotect her friend and I'm like
it just wouldn't, it wouldn't bea far fetch to me that this,
that this boy could beinappropriate, right and and and
like everybody alluded to thefact that he had a, he had a
particular addiction to hisphone, kind of addiction with,
like, the materials that hewatched on his phone.
And so I'm like, and again, youdon't want the girl feeling
(33:26):
uncomfortable right along withyou.
Niq (33:29):
So I personally was like really excited when, like the
girl feeling uncomfortable thatshe brought along with you.
So I personally was like reallyexcited when, like Quinn like
this son's name is Quinn when hemet like the Hawaiian guys who
were doing like the paddling andhe started like doing it with
them and I was really mycontroversial take is his
parents should have allowed himto stay.
Jess (33:51):
Oh girl that's real controversial.
He's 16.
Niq (33:54):
Okay, so hear me out.
Okay, he is 16, but you cantell that they do not give their
kids a lot of parental guidanceand that they pretty much do
what they want when they want todo it.
They are financially stableenough that they can make sure
he has a safe place to stay andthat he has all his financial
(34:17):
needs met.
But even if he I don't knowwhat time of year it was let's
assume that he would miss therest of the school year.
They have enough money that theycan either hire him a tutor
while he's there in Hawaii orsend him to some sort of private
program to make it up.
But what he would get fromspending time with those guys
(34:39):
are things that he needs.
He needs male interaction.
He needs socialization.
He needs to learn teamwork.
He needs to learn that he's notthe most important thing in the
world teamwork.
Jess (34:48):
He needs to learn that he's not the most important
thing in the world and tointeract with non-white people,
because your family has somereally weird racial stuff.
Niq (34:56):
Right, but also like it would help him with his college
application.
So many like if you know, heprobably has good grades and he
went to a good school and heprobably has good SAT scores.
Honestly, these days, that'snot enough to get you into a
good school.
He probably has good SAT scores.
Honestly, these days, that'snot enough to get you into a
good school.
You need something different.
So imagine if he could write anessay about how he went to
(35:17):
Hawaii and learned this skilland was able to help this team
accomplish this thing.
It actually would make himstand out.
Jess (35:28):
He still needs a parent.
He's 16.
He does not have any socialskills.
There's clearly some kind ofissue there that they have not
confronted.
So, like I will say that if thedad was willing to stay with
him in Hawaii, but if you lethim stay in Hawaii by himself,
he's going to become somebodyelse's problem, like as in,
somebody else is now going tohave to take care of your son
because there's just certainthings that he's not able to do
(35:48):
for himself.
They can hire somebody, butwhat is the dad doing?
He's got a real job.
Niq (35:55):
I don't know, I don't know.
I wouldn't have an issue withthe dad staying, but I really
hated how they dismissed itcompletely out of hand and did
not even try to figure out a wayfor it to happen, and they were
not recognizing the benefits.
Yeah, it's like they don't.
(36:16):
They don't care about theirkids for real.
They care, like they're willingto like, I don't know, they're
willing to give them materialthings.
They are, but like they're notmeeting their kids' emotional or
developmental needs.
And you can see it because thedaughter is the spawn of Satan
and the son is barely functionalas a human.
Jess (36:39):
The daughter is definitely Satan's favorite daughter, but
I don't think To some degree Iagree Because I agree, but I
just feel like most parents.
When a teenager asks them I'mjust going to stay here and live
on my own, they would havedismissed it.
But I do agree if they hadknown what it was doing for as
(37:02):
the person who tried to leavethe house since they were eight,
there's so many differentproposals I put in front of my
parents of how I was going tolive on my own that they
dismissed Because I'm like I wasa kid.
Niq (37:13):
Yes, but you also went from a super rich family.
The super rich.
They don't do things the waythat we do, the way normal
people do.
Jess (37:21):
They don't.
Niq (37:23):
They can very easily have their own place and be living
their own separate life.
Jess (37:30):
I guess.
So, mind you, I get thebenefits of him staying there
and I was sad for him because Iwas like, dang, that really
would be good for you, but itwould require a sacrifice.
I feel like the dad should havestayed and lived there in
Hawaii.
That would give him and thewife some separation, that they
need to get some perspective,and that would have been to me.
(37:50):
That would have been my bestcase scenario, but like leaving
him to be there on his own so hecan now be the responsibility
of the people of Hawaii.
Niq (37:57):
No, I just I think my issue is that they did not even
consider it.
They dismissed it out of hand,the same way that they dismissed
the daughter out of hand whenshe was complaining about having
to share a room with herbrother and it not being
comfortable.
Like when, when these kids areexpressing like a need, from
their parents they just dismissit out of hand without even
(38:19):
giving it a second thought.
And compound that with howoften they're probably doing it
about other things, and it'slike, yes, your kids are
ungrateful for the life thatyou're providing them, but
you're also ignoring them whenthey want something that's not
financial.
Jess (38:37):
Yeah, and needs are not just financial yeah.
Okay.
Niq (38:42):
Yeah, I'm like, oh no, he needs to stay.
Make it happen.
When you have resources, youcan make anything happen.
There are things like, oh well,you can make anything happen.
There are things like, oh well,you can't live there by
yourself.
Okay well, find someone who canbe a house manager for him and
make sure that he can keep up.
Jess (39:01):
That is your child.
You stay there?
No, because all I see is himbecoming a burden to somebody
else.
Niq (39:10):
If they're paying a house manager, that would probably be
a good job for someone.
Jess (39:15):
That boy needs so much.
He needs so much.
I don't want that to becomesomebody else's responsibility.
Niq (39:23):
I don't know how much he really needs.
This is the thing.
It's very obvious that he hasissues.
Well, this is the thing I like.
It's very obvious that he hasissues right, but I think that
his, like his issues are lack ofsocialization.
I'm like I think that he wouldbe getting that socialization,
like he would be learning how toput himself, like not first.
(39:43):
He would be learning teamworklike.
I feel like this could help alot of his issues.
Jess (39:50):
He is likely undiagnosed on the spectrum.
He needs a diagnosis.
He possibly has a pornaddiction.
He does need socialization.
But like, so like he would getthe socialization and the team
building a lot of good thingsfrom from that, from that group,
and I get that.
But there's other stuff thatthose parents need to be
attended to that they don't needto partner for someone else, at
(40:11):
least be monitoring it.
You know what I mean.
At least like, okay, I'm goingto stay here with him, I'm going
to put him in therapy or somekind of specialized treatment
for whatever it is that he does,whatever diagnosis he does have
, and he can do this paddle boatthing.
Niq (40:26):
Well, I just feel like when they go home, they're not going
to be doing any of those thingsthey're just like.
That's still theirresponsibility yeah, I don't
know, I, I I feel I felt reallybad for him because I'm like oh,
you actually found somethingthat's not online like is
meeting like some of your needsand could possibly help you
(40:49):
develop into a more functionalhuman being, and your parents
are like I could care less aboutthat.
Jess (40:57):
And a community that's accepting, because that's the
other thing when you don't fitin.
And I can see people in hisworld back home not even trying.
But you had folks there thatwere willing to try with him and
put in some effort.
Like, those guys were veryaccepting and very open and
willing to try with him and I dothink that's important too
because, like, some environmentsjust aren't good for you.
(41:19):
You know, and he's at our superrich elite private school yeah,
them kids are not trying,they're just writing.
Writing you up is weird andmoving on with their life.
Niq (41:31):
Right.
So yeah, I really hate that.
They just did that, you knowyeah.
Jess (41:41):
I was going to say, I do want to talk about the
friendship between the two girlson the trip.
Niq (41:49):
Yes.
Jess (41:52):
Yeah, so that was interesting, their relationship.
I'm like I do not understandwhy the two of your friends and
here's the thing okay, so whatare their names?
Because I know you got thenames what are the two?
Niq (42:06):
names Olivia is the daughter and her friend's name
is Paula, paula, okay.
So I do not understand why thetwo of your friends, I don't
think two names.
Jess (42:10):
So Olivia is the daughter and her friend's name is Paula,
paula, okay.
So I do not understand why thetwo of you are friends.
I don't think you actuallyeither one of you likes the
other one, but you all are veryattached to each other.
Olivia is incredibly jealous ofPaula and I don't know what
Paula is getting out of thefriendship with Olivia, other
than stuff like you know, beingable to come.
(42:30):
But I'm like, but if you're inher orbit, you may not have as
much money as her, but I feellike you still would have some
money, like, so why do you needto attach yourself to her?
But yeah, they are frenemies,they are not actual friends.
And Olivia Paula says thatshe's like she's OK with me as
long as I don't advance past heror have more than she does, and
(42:51):
as soon as she does, she triesto tear that down, and you see
her do that actively.
Niq (43:00):
I honestly think that they are friends because they are
both mean girls and they bothhave that same jaded view of the
world that capitalism is bad.
But I don't know what to donext.
I don't really have real views,but I like to you know.
They have that same attitudeand they obviously both love
(43:25):
drugs and they're frenemies.
And there are certain sets ofgirls who that's all that they
know of friendship is thatfrenemy relationship hmm, yeah
my question go ahead is Oliviain love with Paula?
Jess (43:46):
yes, yes, I got that vibe too.
Olivia is in love with Paula.
She's very possessive of Paula.
Yes, yes, I got that vibe too.
Olivia is in love with Paula.
She's very possessive of Paula.
Yeah, to a point where it'suncomfortable.
It is Like the ASMR.
What was the?
Niq (44:05):
ASMR when they were doing the drugs and she was like you
want to do some ASMR, she's likelighting the drugs and she was
like you want to do some ASMRand she's like lighting the
lighter and rubbing her hair.
It was really intimate.
And I know girl friendships aredifferent.
Girl friendships they do have alevel of intimacy where it can
(44:27):
still be platonic.
But that was still a littleweird.
I think it was because theywere also like doing drugs.
Jess (44:35):
It just felt way intimate, no, the in the level of
possessiveness.
And I try to, I try to rememberbecause we've talked about this
before how, like when you'rethat, when you're that age well,
like you're coming out of highschool but you're not fully
adult, you're kind of in college, your friendships are
everything and they're, and theyare kind of um I don't know the
right word was like, like itmeshed like you're too involved
(44:56):
in each other's lives.
But it feels even beyond thatit does, it does, it does seem
like she's in love with paula,so she tries to sabotage any
relationship that she has with aman.
And I'm like it was.
I'm like from the, from thepoint where you realize that
paula doesn't want to tell herthat she met a guy that she
likes, because I'm like thatwould be the whole topic of
discussion.
If we were on a resort togetherat that age and we were single
(45:19):
and one of us met a guy that weliked, oh my God, we would be
talking about that the wholetime.
Niq (45:24):
Absolutely, it would be a huge deal.
Jess (45:27):
Okay, and then we would encourage each other Because we
got the sense.
Okay, and then we wouldencourage each other.
But the fact that she had tokeep it private and that she had
to hide it and sneak off, likeI get you sneaking off from the
parents, but like we would havesnuck off from the parents and
covered for each other, like shehas to sneak off from her
friend, that was weird.
Niq (45:48):
Olivia was also interrogating her about the guy
like it wasn't like, ooh, he'sso cute like it was like, are
you?
looking at him and like do youlike him?
You know it was it is.
I think I'm quite sure thatPaula's family is not as like
(46:12):
advanced as economicallyadvanced, because you can tell
one, I don't know what, whatPaula's ethnicity is ambiguous,
very ambiguous, like she couldeasily be like.
She looks like she could belike indigenous, but she looks
like she could be likeindigenous, but she looks like
she could also be like Latina,although those are not mutually
(46:35):
exclusive, depending on like,how you're.
But then she could also likeshe could also be Asian.
Jess (46:41):
I don't know she could be a lot of different things, but
she clearly has some tint to herskin and yeah, you can tell
that she, at the very least, hasexperienced some levels of
oppression.
Niq (46:57):
Yeah, based on her like identity, you can, you can tell
that.
So, although she is friends witholivia and she does have some
of those mean girl liketendencies, you can, you like
you could, tell her frustrationat being around these people who
are very rich, very privilegedand don't really understand what
(47:19):
real life is like yeah and so Ithink that she does enjoy her,
her friendship with, with olivia, because it does give her
access to some things that shedoesn't have access to, but it
also allows her to know andunderstand her enemy okay, but I
don't think that, like, paulais like a great person.
(47:44):
She's not a terrible person,but she is more flawed than
she's willing to give herselfcredit.
Yeah, because you are stilllike, in a lot of ways, aligning
yourself with these systemsthat you say that you don't
believe in yeah, absolutely,absolutely.
Jess (48:04):
even even spending time with this family, who has made
multiple racially and I assumelike this is not the first time
you spent time with her family,because they seem very familiar.
So they make comments like thisin front of you all the time,
and then even her and the dadget into it at dinner, kind of
like the dad is being reallyappropriate and saying some
(48:25):
really racially insensitivestuff directly to her, almost
like you know, demanding thatshe explain, or something like
that.
So and you still can choose tobe around these people.
Niq (48:36):
Right Now I'm going to tell you where Paula really really
goes off the deep end for mewhen she formulates this plan
with the guy that she met at theresort and convinces him to rob
the rich family so that he canuse the money you know for to
help out his community.
(48:57):
Yeah, this is crazy, that's oneI'm gonna say one.
It's crazy because, like, eventhough these are not the
greatest people, they still tookyou in and took you on a trip
with them.
Like that.
It's crazy because, like, eventhough these are not the
greatest people, they still tookyou in and took you on a trip
with them.
Like that, that's crazy.
Jess (49:15):
Second of all, like you did not think of the
consequences if things go bad atall, and that's where I feel
like her privilege is showingthat she's still growing up
somewhat affluent and in adifferent world, that she does
not even consider theconsequences for him.
Like you know what I mean,because if you really thought
through this, you would havestole it and then just gave it
(49:36):
to him Because there would nothave been consequences for you.
Niq (49:40):
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Jess (49:43):
You craft this ridiculous plan where he goes into the room
risking his job, his livelihood, everything his freedom.
Niq (49:56):
He did not want to do it.
He's like I'm not a thief,that's not how I operate.
Like she really browbeat thisboy into committing, like a
robbery that he did not want todo, for money he did not ask for
.
Yeah, he did not ask her foranything.
He didn't ask her for any money, no, he was just getting to
know her, letting her get toknow him, and she comes up with
(50:19):
this asinine plan which, ofcourse, falls apart and he ends
up in jail and she ends upcrying because she feels guilty
right, but going back to yourprevious life, right.
And who's there to pick up thepieces, but Olivia trying to get
in.
Jess (50:39):
Girl and I'm like run Paula, run, Run from this family
.
Niq (50:46):
I honestly was hoping that Kai was going to snitch on her
and say that she was involved,because she deserved to face the
consequences, because shecreated that situation, that
dumb plan.
And I hate that he is the onethat felt the consequences of
(51:06):
her crazy idea Me too.
So the family at the end of thetrip, of her crazy idea me too.
So I just like.
So the at the end of the tripbecause Kai, the wife ends up
coming back to the hotel earlyand is there when Kai is trying
to rob the safe.
The husband gets to be a heroand he gets to come in and swoop
(51:28):
in and save his wife.
Like their relationship gets abit of a boost.
The kids, like because theirparents were in danger, soften
towards the parents a little bit.
So, like they, I guess theyleave in a slightly better
(51:51):
position than they were.
Jess (51:52):
But it's so superficial I just don't think it'll last and
it's not going to last, andagain all these people are
affected, and then they'rebetter off even slightly,
without having made any realchange well, right, and there's
(52:14):
a worker that is hurt by it,like if you look, there's a
correlation.
Niq (52:20):
Belinda got hurt by Tanya and Kai got hurt by being
associated with Paula, who's, atthis point, a moss blocker
because she's on the trip withthem, and it's like once again
boundaries get pushed.
Paula, who's, at this point, amoss blocker because she's on
the trip with them, and it'slike you, like the once again
boundaries get pushed and theyare taking, even though they
come in, having everythingthey're taking from the lesser
(52:40):
people, and Kai ends up losinghis freedom and I just hate that
for him because he's a reallynice guy, really sweet guy and
did not want to do it.
Jess (52:48):
I reiterate did not want to do it.
I'm so did not want to do it.
I'm like I'm so wishing hewould have said no, but she
really.
I look like she pulled him inwith this idea that he could
reconnect to his community,because he was already
disconnected because he workedon the resort, and I think
that's what really got him.
But I'm like if you just took astep back and listen, like you
ought to know this is not goingto work out well for you and
(53:09):
she's going to be fine.
Niq (53:10):
Right, right.
So do you have any other partsof their story that you want to
discuss?
Jess (53:20):
I think we did pretty good .
Niq (53:22):
I think we covered.
I think we really did a goodjob.
We really covered all of them,okay, so thank you guys so much
for joining us for this.
Hi guys, welcome back to our discussion of season one of
the White Lotus.
This is next episode with yourhost, Niq and Jess.
And so I want to talk aboutanother set of guests.
I feel like framing like ourdiscussions around the guests is
like an easier way because wecan kind of bring in the workers
(00:23):
that way.
And so I want to discuss likethe family next is like an
easier way because we can kindof bring in the workers that way
, and so I want to discuss, likethe family.
Jess (00:34):
Next, the Mossbacher family.
Girl, you a good one, I wroteit down.
I had no clue.
Okay, so a lot of interestingfamily dynamics there.
So the Mossbacher family islike a super rich Well, they're
all rich, but this woman's likea driven career woman, she's
like CEO of a company.
Niq (00:51):
I want to say she's the CEO of a search engine called Poof.
Jess (00:56):
And then the family consists of her husband, her son
, a daughter and her daughter'sfriend, who comes along with
them on vacation.
Niq (01:04):
Yes, and so what is interesting is you would think
that, okay, they're going onthis vacation I think it's like
they're supposed to be spendinglike two weeks initially.
I believe in like thisbeautiful resort in Hawaii and
you would think that everybodywould be like really happy and
(01:24):
really excited like from thevery beginning, like these
people are almost on the line ofdepressed.
Jess (01:32):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, they're miserable.
Um, the daughter isunnecessarily bitchy to me, like
she really has an issue withher, like that bothered me.
I I'm like cause you've?
You've clearly this.
They've been given everything.
They've grown up with money.
Our mom does everything, evento the point of paying for your
(01:52):
friend to come on vacation whichyou have no value of, but like
that's a big deal for this kindof expensive behind resort and
she's just so nasty to her mom.
There seems like there's somemarital tension between the
couple and then the son.
I don't think they explicitlystated whether or not he is on
the spectrum, but it's possiblyon the spectrum.
Niq (02:16):
I agree, he's got something going on.
Jess (02:18):
There's something going on there, and so then there's
tension between him and thesister.
The sister pretty much hateseveryone but the dad and her
friend.
Niq (02:31):
I would argue that she doesn't like her friend either.
Jess (02:33):
Not fully.
Oh yeah, not for real, it's ahuman frenemy.
Niq (02:36):
So Nicole, who is the mom, she's like the CEO and she's on
family vacation, but she's stilldoing things.
She's still working takingshe's still doing things.
She's still working takingphone calls, like doing emails,
and I know that bothers thedaughter I don't know if it
bothers the husband, but itdefinitely bothers the daughter
(02:58):
and the son is oblivious towhat's going on completely.
Jess (03:02):
I don't know why it bothers the daughter.
She doesn't want to spend timewith her mom.
I think she just wants to pointout anything that she could see
as a flaw.
Niq (03:09):
Honestly, yes, this is what I think when it comes to the
mother-daughter relationship.
Her mom is insanely successfuland I don't think that her
daughter feels like she cancompete with the things her mom
has achieved and so she'sdecided to opt out, and that's
(03:30):
why I feel like she's soanti-capitalist.
She's so not really, no, but inher stance, when it comes to her
mom, she's like anti-capitalistand, you know, super leftist,
and you know we need to teardown all these systems of
oppression.
She's like anti-capitalist andsuper leftist and we need to
tear down all these systems ofoppression.
Jess (03:50):
While she's enjoying all the benefits of the system of
the oppression.
Niq (03:54):
And all the benefits of capitalism.
Exactly, it's superficial.
Jess (04:00):
It is so superficial.
Niq (04:01):
It's not well thought out.
Jess (04:02):
There's a lot of buzzwords , A lot of holeswords and you
know, but I honestly A lot ofholes in her theories.
Niq (04:08):
Right, and I really honestly think it's because,
like, she doesn't feel like thatshe can keep up with her mom's
accomplishments, and so she'sdecided I'm just going to opt
out and make you know, in orderto make myself feel better.
I'm going to tear her downBecause that's one of the things
that, you see, make myself feelbetter.
I'm going to tear her downBecause that's one of the things
that you see, her name isOlivia.
Olivia tears everybody down,everybody, and you can only do
(04:33):
that when you hate yourself Tobe that committed to being so
destructive to other people.
That's because you hateyourself and you want everybody
else to be in this much painthan you are.
Yeah.
Jess (04:45):
Yeah, I think.
I think there's an air ofresentment between, like with
everybody, but the son.
The son is just kind ofoblivious to a lot, but like
both the dad and the daughter,like they benefit from and they
enjoy all the fruits of themom's labor, but they heavily
resent her for it.
Niq (05:04):
A thousand percent.
A thousand percent.
The husband whose name is Mark.
Does Mark work?
That's a good question.
I'm not sure.
I'm quite sure he does work,but it's very clear that he's
not as successful and that thewife makes the majority of the
money and he does feelemasculated by that.
(05:27):
He does feel resentful of that.
You find out that he actuallycheated on her and I honestly
think that that was like himwanting to feel like he was
getting back at her for herbeing successful.
Yeah, agreed, which is so?
It's such a weird thing and ithonestly it's.
It's common and I it's commonit's common.
(05:50):
But at the same time I'm likedon't we hate this story?
Like don't we hate thesuccessful woman who can't be
domestic, and you know so.
She emasculates her husband andI don't even think she's
actively trying.
She does not emasculate herhusband, he feels emasculates
her husband, and I don't eventhink she's actively trying.
Jess (06:05):
She does not emasculate her husband.
He feels emasculated right,which I honestly feel like is
more accurate, because a lot oftimes, like and when men are in
these situations, they act likethe woman is is doing something
to them.
Now don't get me wrong, the momis not a saint.
She got her own problems, butlike she's not emasculating him,
he just feels emasculated andhe takes it out on her.
Niq (06:29):
Right and I'm just like well, if having a woman who is
strong and successful bothersyou, why not go and find someone
else who's not strong andsuccessful?
No, you won't have all of thebenefits of the things that she
provides, but you will have, Iguess, that feeling of
masculinity that you desire yeah, but you won't have that
(06:50):
lifestyle either, right?
Because I'm like, I thinkthat's, I'm sorry.
Jess (06:56):
I think that's.
The frustrating thing for me isthat neither him nor the
daughter, with all theircomplaints, will give up the
lifestyle like both of you could.
She could also up.
The daughter could opt outcomplaints.
Will give up the lifestyle,like both of you could.
The daughter could opt out ofthe money.
She could do things on her own.
So she is anti-capitalist andbelieves and go live in a hovel
and do whatever.
He could leave and go take careof a woman who is not as
(07:20):
successful as him and feel likethe man.
But they won't.
Niq (07:24):
Right Because I just I'm like I him and feel like the man
.
But they won't right because I,just I I'm like I don't feel
like she's the wife is happy.
I don't feel like nicole ishappy in the marriage.
I don't feel like mark is happyin the marriage.
So I'm like why are you guys,why, why are you doing this?
He doesn't appreciate thethings that you know you're
doing to provide for the family.
Like you guys aren't connectingbecause she's so focused on,
(07:48):
like her career that she's notcreating time and space for them
to connect, even with her kids.
You know, like she's socommitted to financially taking
care of them that she's notthere for them emotionally.
Even the way she talks aboutthe son when she's like, oh, you
(08:09):
know it's so hard for young menhis age, you know they're now
at the bottom of the totem pole,like all of that, and I'm just
like, listen, that is not thereason why your son acts the way
that he's acting.
Jess (08:24):
We're going to ignore the young white man, and that's
where the mom is alsoproblematic.
Niq (08:30):
Yes, she's.
She is problematic because,first of all, what she's saying
is complete BS.
But let's assume for amicrosecond that what she is
saying is true.
That is still not the reasonwhy your son is having the
issues that he has.
That man needs some like heneeds like a support person.
He needs like somebody teachinghim life skills.
(08:54):
He needs socialization like hedoesn't have any of.
He has no friends.
He couldn't bring a friend onthe trip.
That's not because he's a whiteman and because people are
seeking equity.
Something is wrong with him.
He's missing something andyou're not paying him enough
attention.
You're not giving him what heneeds and that's not just her
(09:15):
job, it's his father's job too.
But they are their children.
As parents, they're notparenting their kids.
They're just like financiallytaking care of them, but they're
not like actually looking intotheir needs.
(09:35):
Their daughter is a drug addict.
Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
She's a drug addict and she'smiserable.
I think she may even have apersonality disorder like she's
at.
I think she may even have apersonality disorder.
She's, at the very least, a big, big bitch.
Jess (09:51):
She's a big, big bitch.
Niq (09:52):
And you're not helping her to develop morals and values and
actually care about people.
Jess (09:59):
No, she's not.
I'm going to be honest with youand this is going to make me
the best person.
If I was a mom, I would leavethem all Except for the son,
honestly, because, like, the sonjust needs some support and
structure that he's not getting.
But them other two.
If I make your life somiserable, have at it, hoss.
Niq (10:22):
I would definitely like cut them off financially.
Jess (10:27):
And I'm like, honestly.
Honestly, the way that thedaughter talks to her mom is so
freaking evil that I would likecolleges on you.
Whatever you do, after you knowwhat, you ain't got to deal
with none of my capitalism.
I'm taking all of my capitalismand go with someone else.
I'll put my son in the program.
We gonna figure this issue out,but you and your daddy, y'all
(10:49):
have fun.
Niq (10:49):
The funny thing is I would cut her off financially but
still try to talk to her andspend time with her.
I would.
The point I want to prove isthat you don't really want me
emotionally or financially.
You just want something tocomplain about, to give yourself
like more depth.
So you're not a spoiled littlerich girl, you're a
(11:11):
revolutionary who does all thespoiled little rich girl things.
Jess (11:25):
I would at least want to cry All the spoiled little rich
girl things.
I would at least want to cryPeople who don't have as much
money To me.
I'm like as much as you pretendto be anti-capitalist.
Niq (11:43):
You still judge people who you see as poorer than you,
absolutely, absolutely,absolutely, absolutely so.
Okay, so, breaking down likeeach person and and why they are
a miserable, entitled person.
Um, so, nicole it, she's a ceoand she meets rachel, who is one
of the other guests.
Um, rachel is part of, like,the married couple and they're
(12:05):
on their honeymoon, and soRachel introduces herself.
They have what starts out to beactually a really good
conversation, and then Rachelmentions that she wrote a
profile on her and Nicole getsso nasty and I was kind of
(12:26):
shocked by that but wasn't theprofile like a hit piece?
Jess (12:34):
what was it?
Or did she say something crazyin the profile?
Niq (12:37):
but Rachel didn't see it like that one, which I thought
was weird.
Rachel said that she wasrepurposing a profile that
somebody else did, and I'm likethat one, which I thought was
weird.
Rachel said that she wasrepurposing a profile that
somebody else did, and I'm likethat's weird.
Why wouldn't you write your ownpiece?
right, but the but the but she Idon't think rachel saw it as a,
(12:59):
as a hit piece.
She thought that she was likewriting a nice profile and
because she was basing it onsomething she got from a more
prestigious newspaper, she wascaught off guard when Nicole was
like I hate you.
Jess (13:15):
She was, and I wish I could remember the exact phrase
that Nicole was responding to,because I remember when she said
it.
I was like why did you evenapproach her If you said that to
her about her.
Niq (13:25):
I can't remember.
She said she rode the Me Toowave.
I think it was something likeshe rode the Me Too wave.
Jess (13:33):
Okay, Let me tell you why.
I would be pissed about thattoo, Because you're basically
discounting all the hard workand everything that I've done to
be successful.
I just happen to be in theright place at the right time
when clearly you see how hardthis woman works and I'm sure to
break in as a CEO at that levelin a tech space.
She has been working for yearsbefore she really took off.
(13:54):
So to say, I wrote the me toowave.
I would.
I'm like I knew it wassomething.
I would have been pissed too.
Two things can be true no, no,no.
It could be true that maybe theMe Too situation happened and
it moved a man out the way andopened up space that I could be
promoted, but I did not ride theMe Too wave.
(14:15):
That man got kicked out of hisjob because he couldn't keep his
hands to himself, and that'sdifferent.
Don't act like you don't meanto me.
Niq (14:21):
I do feel like she was discounting her success act like
you know to me, I do feel likeshe was discounting her success.
I've when I.
What I took a when she said itwas that this woman had all had
already been doing the work anddoing the work for a long time,
and the me too movement createdan opportunity for her to
finally move up to a space thatshe already deserved.
(14:41):
I, because I just know I guessthat's how and that's not how
Nicole took it either, but Ithink I'm trying to give Rachel
some grace on how she could havewritten it and not realize that
the woman was offended becauseshe was looking.
I think she was looking at itdifferently.
She's looking at it like oh, meToo allowed women to get the
(15:06):
opportunity that they hadn'tgotten before, not because it
was undeserved, but becausethey're already going to look at
men.
But you know, that's what I'msaying.
Jess (15:17):
Nicole is a mess, but I would have took that the same
way.
Niq (15:21):
Right, but I don't like.
That's what I'm saying.
Two things can be true likenicole could be offended because
she felt like she was sayingthat she didn't work hard to get
there.
And rachel can be shockedbecause she was saying, like
you're finally like me too isallowing you to finally get the
place that you deserve.
You know what I'm saying?
(15:43):
Yeah, but I just like it wasjust how quickly Nicole went
from like girl power, womensupporting women, encouraging
her to be like I hate you.
Jess (15:54):
Mm-hmm, In two seconds.
Again, I feel like I'mdefending Nicole more than I
want to, because I don'tnecessarily like her either, but
like no, because like, yeah,I'm girl power, so I feel like
you are not.
You know what I mean.
You know what I mean.
Like if you are trying to makeit seem like, and like I said, I
would take it the same way.
So I'm like you're trying tomake it seem like I didn't
(16:15):
really deserve my success, Ididn't work to get where I was,
or I was, you know, somehowriding a wave of something that
had nothing to do with me.
You know what I mean.
Like the me too, like it hadnothing to do with me.
Niq (16:28):
So I'm going to tell you who Nicole is Like.
Nicole is one of those womenwho are like all about success,
all about like power, power, allabout women need equality and
doors opened, as until they walkthrough and then the door can
close.
Because for her to make thatcomment, being upset about
(16:53):
saying that the woman wrote the,she wrote the me too movement,
but also saying it's hard forwhite, young white men, lets me
know, that she does not like.
Like you love hillary clinton,right, so you like, but you
really don't care about peoplewho are not like you and, and
listen, I can agree.
Jess (17:14):
I don't get that from that comment because I'm like, like
I said, if I I would, I feellike she would have, she would
have been willing to help theother girl and she would have
been like girl power with herwhich, again, to be honest and
fair, is another white woman um,until she felt like attacked by
her and I'm like I can't saythat I would have acted
differently, because if I feellike you're trying to attack me,
then yeah, no, I'm not gonnahelp you in any way or be a
(17:35):
mentor or be you know.
No, we got issues, we got beef,but agreed in the sense of like
she's not pulling up women ofcolor, she's not pulling up
anybody else, she just wantswhite women to have equality to
white men.
Niq (17:53):
Right, like she doesn't like that's what I'm saying.
Her equality extends to her,and then that's where the line
is drawn To doesn't like?
That's what I'm saying.
Her equality extends to her,and then that's where the line
is drawn, to say that like, oh,it's so hard for young white men
who have always had privilege,every privilege.
What is it?
Isn't there a quote that saysequality can feel like
(18:15):
oppression, like when you'venever like experienced it before
, like when you've neverexperienced it before, when
you've never experienced.
You know what I'm saying andthat's what it is.
It's like, oh, she feels so badfor her son that he might
actually have to compete againstpeople and not get that extra
push that comes from being arich white male.
And so she's like looking athim and knowing her son cannot
(18:39):
compete because something iswrong with him.
Jess (18:43):
She's like give him sympathy.
Niq (18:45):
No, you give him resources.
Jess (18:47):
Okay, it's when you're accustomed to privilege,
equality feels like oppression.
Niq (18:51):
Thank you.
Yes, so yeah, but yeah.
So.
I dislike Nicole as a person,but I feel like the way her
family treats her is insane andnobody deserves to be treated
like that yeah, and that's why Iwould be like I'm cutting my
losses but when she got, likewhen she left the boat, crying
(19:14):
like I, I honestly felt reallybad for her.
Jess (19:17):
I feel so bad for felt so bad for her, and that's the
thing.
That's the two sides of it.
It's because, again, I don'tthink that she's a good person
either, but I did feel bad forher and I didn't want the
husband to go after her.
I was like, no, let her have amoment, just let her have a
moment.
She needs to be away from y'all.
Niq (19:39):
Get your behind on herself, because none of you, you all-
and take every single moment tolet her know that you do not
want to be bothered with her.
Right like the husband'sselfishness.
So he's already like committedadultery.
Right, he's committed adulteryand she has forgiven him, but
she's still not over.
There's still some hurt thereand the the thing that she asked
for in that situation is tokeep it between the two of them
(20:00):
and not involve the children.
The husband has an identitycrisis because he finds out that
his dad was closeted and heends up dying of AIDS.
And he thought his dad died ofcancer, like when he was like 15
.
This man is clearly pushing 50and he spirals and somehow that
(20:23):
spiral spirals into him, likedivulging to the son that he
cheated on his mom and that topay her back he bought her a
$75,000 bracelet.
Jess (20:36):
Yeah, probably for with her money he specified $75,000
bracelet.
Yeah.
Niq (20:39):
Probably with her money, but also it was not with his.
He specified I spent my ownmoney on it.
Jess (20:44):
Oh, he did say that.
Niq (20:46):
He did.
But this is immediately what Ithought.
The reason why you have $75,000to spend on that bracelet is
probably because she's payingthe living expenses, true, you?
Jess (20:57):
know what I'm saying?
Niq (20:57):
I don't believe you guys are going 50 50 and you bought
her that 75 000 by your slave.
So in a sense, she's stillpaying for it because she's
paying for your lifestyle.
But it's I and so like the thedad's identity crisis.
It it's like he's like I didn'tknow the real truth about my
(21:19):
father and I don't feel like I'ma good father.
So I need to try to find a wayto connect with my son.
Jess (21:27):
And I would say this on on his face I get him that that
find out the truth about hisfather throwing him and him
having to reconcile with that.
Because I think, like to me,the daughter focused on like or
just kind of brush past it.
He's like, oh, it's okay thathim having to reconcile with
that, because I think, like tome, the daughter focused on like
or just kind of brush past it'slike, oh, it's okay that your
dad was gay.
I'm like, he's not.
It's not just about that.
He found out that he didn'treally know his father, like he
thought he knew his father.
(21:48):
I'm like.
But like and let's not glossover the fact that he's also
reconciled like his dadessentially cheated on his
mother, their entire marriage,you know what I mean.
Like it's a lot.
It's not just about him findingout that his father was gay.
You know, I'm like.
It's like I did not know thisman.
Now he then takes it to a weirdplace when he talks to Armand.
(22:09):
But yeah, he does.
But I do understand thatthrowing him.
Niq (22:14):
He had an idea of who his father was and he measured
himself up against that hiswhole life, right, and so
finding out that he didn't knowhis dad at all, he kind of lost
his bearing on.
Well, who am I if I've alwayscompared myself to who I thought
(22:35):
he was?
If he's not the person that Ithought he was, then I no longer
know who I am and how do Imeasure myself?
That part I absolutely get.
Yes, and I feel like thedaughter was very disrespectful
because she was trying to makeit about like homophobia and I
don't.
(22:56):
It wasn't about homophobia, itwas about sense of identity.
Yeah, you know.
Jess (23:03):
And it's a little bit in there, but it was such the it it
wasn't in the conversation hewas having with her.
Niq (23:10):
I feel like the homophobia came out more so in the
conversation he was having withArmand but like it was, like if
I don't know that it, I don'tknow that the, I don't know that
the dad might be the wrong term, but it's incredibly invasive.
Jess (23:26):
The question he asked our mom and you have no business
asking anybody that that you'renot like it would be different
if that was your homie, like ifyou, if you and a person were
close friends.
Sometimes close friends haveweird conversations but you
don't notice man.
Niq (23:44):
Right, that is incredibly invasive.
That comes back to the pushingboundaries.
They push a lot of these guests, these VIP guests.
They expect to be treated acertain way and they feel like
they can push boundaries because, yeah, like he asked Armand if
(24:05):
basically anal sex was,enjoyable and what is most
hilarious about that situationis Armand did not get offended
by the question at all.
Armand was like get offended bythe question at all.
Armand was like, oh, you'reinterested, do you want to find
out?
And the guy's like no, no.
But Armand like from that pointon, from that point on,
(24:32):
armand's like I'm going to getyou.
Jess (24:38):
I think he was.
Niq (24:42):
Armand's response to that question is my favorite part of
the show.
It was so hilarious.
But I can't even fault Armand,because that's a wild question
to ask.
We don't know each other, right?
We're just at a bar talking andyou're all of a sudden asking
me how anal sex feels like,clearly knowing that I'm not
heterosexual like you.
You I feel like okay.
(25:03):
So you know how, like in somelike there was like a time where
it was not okay to be gay andso in order to like find
partners and things like that,like gay people would like they
would use innuendo and secretcodes and all of that stuff to
try to find a partner withoutfully exposed.
And I'm like I feel like Armandwas thinking that maybe that's
(25:25):
what Mark was trying to do, sohe's like well, I'm going to let
you know that I'm interested.
Even in front of his family,armand was like let me know, you
can get it.
And even the family picked up.
Yeah, that was hilarious,that's a little weird, yeah that
(25:47):
.
Jess (25:47):
That was.
Niq (25:50):
That was my favorite part of the show so, yeah, I don't,
like I said, I don't know thathis question was necessarily
rooted in homophobia, but Ithink it necessarily rooted in
homophobia, but I think it wasrooted in the why was this?
Oh, a thousand percent it wasinappropriate, but why was this
thing more important than me andmy mom and our family?
I think it's what he was.
(26:13):
I think it was what he wastrying to question, because he
felt like his dad doing thatlike was more important somehow
took away from.
He felt like his dad doing thatlike was more important,
somehow took away from his dadbeing his dad and being there
for him because he had thesecret life and he ended up
dying because of it.
And I just think that that's ofcourse.
He just got this information,so he's trying to figure out all
of his feelings that you didnot know and the fact that you
(26:37):
had all of these fond memoriesof your dad should let you know
that he did not choose thelifestyle over you.
It was just a component thatyou did not know about.
Jess (26:47):
Maybe he can get to that one day.
I don't know.
I can't get past the fact thatyou are still in a relationship
with my mom.
You've taken my mom essentiallyoff the market and taken her in
a place where she never gets achance to find love and you are
exposing her because the otherthing is like okay, you now know
(27:10):
your dad died of AIDS.
Did he expose your mom?
Did they stop sleeping?
You know what I mean.
Niq (27:14):
Right.
We don't know enough about themom to know what from her
perspective.
We don't know what she hadgoing on on the side.
We don't know anything aboutthat.
Jess (27:26):
And I don't know if his mom is dead too, but, like to me
, all of that would be runningthrough my head Like, oh my God,
so you've exposed my mom tothis.
You know what I mean.
I just feel like his breakdownwas understandable and like it
would get, but where he wouldhave stepped too far was the way
he was talking to our mom andalso revealing that situation
(27:49):
that the mom wanted privateright to his son, but even the
way he was talking about histalking to his son too, like
because he also fed his son thatemasculation BS.
And to the point where you couldtell because his son too, like
because he also fed his son thatemasculation bs.
And to the point where youcould tell because his son
parented it back and you couldtell I'm like, oh, so they're
training him to think that he'ssomehow oppressed because he's a
white man yes, yes, I told you,they are terrible parents
(28:15):
they're terrible.
Yeah, and I'm like, and I'm likethe son already has issues
connecting with people andyou've already set him up to
believe that successful womenare emasculating to men right, I
do actually want to talk aboutthe son next and I have a very
(28:37):
controversial take that I willtell you when we discuss this.
Niq (28:41):
So, quinn, he seems to be like he's like 16 and he didn't
have a friend that he couldbring on the trip and he spends
way too much time on his phoneand like playing, like video
games, and he really doesn'tknow how to exist like out in
the real world.
But he also his sister, likereally doesn't know how to exist
like out in the real world, buthe also his sister, like he
(29:02):
doesn't have a good relationshipwith his sister, like his
sister is mean His sister isevil, like she has no empathy
for him at all.
None, none.
And I just think that that isvery, very strange, like I know
that not every siblingrelationship, not every sibling
group is super close, but likeshe never really, you never
(29:25):
really see her show him anykindness, none.
Jess (29:29):
None, and it's very very odd.
But she doesn't show anybodyany kindness.
But she's particularly harshwith him and the mom.
She's harsh with the and themom, she's harsh Right.
Niq (29:41):
Right and I can't.
I can't understand it, but myquestion is he's 16 and he's
acting like this.
I don't understand why hisparents have not intervened and
done something, some kind ofintervention with him.
Jess (29:54):
Yeah, I cannot understand and I know this is a minor point
With all the money they have,why did they get them separate
rooms?
Niq (30:02):
No, that is a huge.
It's not a minor point, it's ahuge point.
That room, the room situationdoes not make sense.
She is a CEO.
Why would you get a suite withone bedroom and three children?
Would you get a suite with onebedroom and?
Jess (30:19):
three children, three adult size children, like
they're like 16.
The two girls are in collegebut they're all physically
adults right, exactly?
Niq (30:28):
and they're all not girls.
Like there's a guy, a 16 yearold boy and with your daughter's
teenage like, like it doesn'tmake sense.
There should have been, at thevery least, one more bedroom, at
the very least.
Jess (30:46):
I could not understand that you could have put them on
the couch but, like you,definitely should have had them
girls in a separate bedroom.
The daughter alludes to this,and I've seen this with other
people on the spectrum, so Idon't know if he's had this
issue in the past or if she'sjust being mean because she's
just so freaking mean, but shejust alludes to him being
(31:07):
inappropriate in front of thefriend, which sometimes you
don't have.
You know, you don't know thesocial rights or wrongs, like
you will be, but to me that waslike the most genuine concern.
She just didn't know how toexpress it or the mom just
wasn't willing to receive it,but I'm like, no, you absolutely
should not expect the three ofthem to be in the same place
overnight.
The girl needs to change, she,you know, and that's not his
(31:29):
sister right, I, yeah, I couldnot understand that.
Niq (31:33):
I think that that was the weirdest thing ever because once
again, this woman is a ceo, soat the even if they they did not
have a suite with two bedrooms,she could have gotten the girls
a separate room, their collegeage, they can be in their own
(31:53):
room.
Yeah I could not.
I could not for the life of mefigure it out.
I'm like her mom is so type A,like her mom.
You know what I'm saying.
Like I don't understand howthis is like the living
situation we ended up with.
Yeah, it did not make sense.
Jess (32:09):
He didn't have to like sleep in the kitchen with no air
conditioning, oh my god, andthat's because his sister put
him in the kitchen.
Niq (32:18):
The mom was like they can all sleep out here.
Why are you a CEO and you gotyour son sleeping on a roll away
?
Mmhmm, and he's like not achild, he's 16.
Jess (32:28):
He's a big 16, like he's.
Niq (32:30):
He's like the size of a grown man right, if it was so
cool, why didn't you put thegirls in the bedroom and you and
your husband slept on the couchwith your son?
You know what I'm saying.
If that's, if that's, if thatwas a cool living situation.
Jess (32:44):
Yeah, that never made sense to me, like I definitely
feel like the girls should havehad their own room and then the
daughter complained and the momjust completely discounted her
and that's, and I'm like, andagain, the daughter is such a
bitch.
It's hard, you know.
I mean you kind of understandsometimes, but in that moment
that was the one time where Iwas like, no, her complaint is
valid.
Her complaint is valid.
(33:04):
Like no, she's trying toprotect her friend and I'm like
it just wouldn't, it wouldn't bea far fetch to me that this,
that this boy could beinappropriate, right and and and
like everybody alluded to thefact that he had a, he had a
particular addiction to hisphone, kind of addiction with,
like, the materials that hewatched on his phone.
And so I'm like, and again, youdon't want the girl feeling
(33:26):
uncomfortable right along withyou.
Niq (33:29):
So I personally was like really excited when, like the
girl feeling uncomfortable thatshe brought along with you.
So I personally was like reallyexcited when, like Quinn like
this son's name is Quinn when hemet like the Hawaiian guys who
were doing like the paddling andhe started like doing it with
them and I was really mycontroversial take is his
parents should have allowed himto stay.
Jess (33:51):
Oh girl that's real controversial.
He's 16.
Niq (33:54):
Okay, so hear me out.
Okay, he is 16, but you cantell that they do not give their
kids a lot of parental guidanceand that they pretty much do
what they want when they want todo it.
They are financially stableenough that they can make sure
he has a safe place to stay andthat he has all his financial
(34:17):
needs met.
But even if he I don't knowwhat time of year it was let's
assume that he would miss therest of the school year.
They have enough money that theycan either hire him a tutor
while he's there in Hawaii orsend him to some sort of private
program to make it up.
But what he would get fromspending time with those guys
(34:39):
are things that he needs.
He needs male interaction.
He needs socialization.
He needs to learn teamwork.
He needs to learn that he's notthe most important thing in the
world teamwork.
Jess (34:48):
He needs to learn that he's not the most important
thing in the world and tointeract with non-white people,
because your family has somereally weird racial stuff.
Niq (34:56):
Right, but also like it would help him with his college
application.
So many like if you know, heprobably has good grades and he
went to a good school and heprobably has good SAT scores.
Honestly, these days, that'snot enough to get you into a
good school.
He probably has good SAT scores.
Honestly, these days, that'snot enough to get you into a
good school.
You need something different.
So imagine if he could write anessay about how he went to
(35:17):
Hawaii and learned this skilland was able to help this team
accomplish this thing.
It actually would make himstand out.
Jess (35:28):
He still needs a parent.
He's 16.
He does not have any socialskills.
There's clearly some kind ofissue there that they have not
confronted.
So, like I will say that if thedad was willing to stay with
him in Hawaii, but if you lethim stay in Hawaii by himself,
he's going to become somebodyelse's problem, like as in,
somebody else is now going tohave to take care of your son
because there's just certainthings that he's not able to do
(35:48):
for himself.
They can hire somebody, butwhat is the dad doing?
He's got a real job.
Niq (35:55):
I don't know, I don't know.
I wouldn't have an issue withthe dad staying, but I really
hated how they dismissed itcompletely out of hand and did
not even try to figure out a wayfor it to happen, and they were
not recognizing the benefits.
Yeah, it's like they don't.
(36:16):
They don't care about theirkids for real.
They care, like they're willingto like, I don't know, they're
willing to give them materialthings.
They are, but like they're notmeeting their kids' emotional or
developmental needs.
And you can see it because thedaughter is the spawn of Satan
and the son is barely functionalas a human.
Jess (36:39):
The daughter is definitely Satan's favorite daughter, but
I don't think To some degree Iagree Because I agree, but I
just feel like most parents.
When a teenager asks them I'mjust going to stay here and live
on my own, they would havedismissed it.
But I do agree if they hadknown what it was doing for as
(37:02):
the person who tried to leavethe house since they were eight,
there's so many differentproposals I put in front of my
parents of how I was going tolive on my own that they
dismissed Because I'm like I wasa kid.
Niq (37:13):
Yes, but you also went from a super rich family.
The super rich.
They don't do things the waythat we do, the way normal
people do.
Jess (37:21):
They don't.
Niq (37:23):
They can very easily have their own place and be living
their own separate life.
Jess (37:30):
I guess.
So, mind you, I get thebenefits of him staying there
and I was sad for him because Iwas like, dang, that really
would be good for you, but itwould require a sacrifice.
I feel like the dad should havestayed and lived there in
Hawaii.
That would give him and thewife some separation, that they
need to get some perspective,and that would have been to me.
(37:50):
That would have been my bestcase scenario, but like leaving
him to be there on his own so hecan now be the responsibility
of the people of Hawaii.
Niq (37:57):
No, I just I think my issue is that they did not even
consider it.
They dismissed it out of hand,the same way that they dismissed
the daughter out of hand whenshe was complaining about having
to share a room with herbrother and it not being
comfortable.
Like when, when these kids areexpressing like a need, from
their parents they just dismissit out of hand without even
(38:19):
giving it a second thought.
And compound that with howoften they're probably doing it
about other things, and it'slike, yes, your kids are
ungrateful for the life thatyou're providing them, but
you're also ignoring them whenthey want something that's not
financial.
Jess (38:37):
Yeah, and needs are not just financial yeah.
Okay.
Niq (38:42):
Yeah, I'm like, oh no, he needs to stay.
Make it happen.
When you have resources, youcan make anything happen.
There are things like, oh well,you can make anything happen.
There are things like, oh well,you can't live there by
yourself.
Okay well, find someone who canbe a house manager for him and
make sure that he can keep up.
Jess (39:01):
That is your child.
You stay there?
No, because all I see is himbecoming a burden to somebody
else.
Niq (39:10):
If they're paying a house manager, that would probably be
a good job for someone.
Jess (39:15):
That boy needs so much.
He needs so much.
I don't want that to becomesomebody else's responsibility.
Niq (39:23):
I don't know how much he really needs.
This is the thing.
It's very obvious that he hasissues.
Well, this is the thing I like.
It's very obvious that he hasissues right, but I think that
his, like his issues are lack ofsocialization.
I'm like I think that he wouldbe getting that socialization,
like he would be learning how toput himself, like not first.
(39:43):
He would be learning teamworklike.
I feel like this could help alot of his issues.
Jess (39:50):
He is likely undiagnosed on the spectrum.
He needs a diagnosis.
He possibly has a pornaddiction.
He does need socialization.
But like, so like he would getthe socialization and the team
building a lot of good thingsfrom from that, from that group,
and I get that.
But there's other stuff thatthose parents need to be
attended to that they don't needto partner for someone else, at
(40:11):
least be monitoring it.
You know what I mean.
At least like, okay, I'm goingto stay here with him, I'm going
to put him in therapy or somekind of specialized treatment
for whatever it is that he does,whatever diagnosis he does have
, and he can do this paddle boatthing.
Niq (40:26):
Well, I just feel like when they go home, they're not going
to be doing any of those thingsthey're just like.
That's still theirresponsibility yeah, I don't
know, I, I I feel I felt reallybad for him because I'm like oh,
you actually found somethingthat's not online like is
meeting like some of your needsand could possibly help you
(40:49):
develop into a more functionalhuman being, and your parents
are like I could care less aboutthat.
Jess (40:57):
And a community that's accepting, because that's the
other thing when you don't fitin.
And I can see people in hisworld back home not even trying.
But you had folks there thatwere willing to try with him and
put in some effort.
Like, those guys were veryaccepting and very open and
willing to try with him and I dothink that's important too
because, like, some environmentsjust aren't good for you.
(41:19):
You know, and he's at our superrich elite private school yeah,
them kids are not trying,they're just writing.
Writing you up is weird andmoving on with their life.
Niq (41:31):
Right.
So yeah, I really hate that.
They just did that, you knowyeah.
Jess (41:41):
I was going to say, I do want to talk about the
friendship between the two girlson the trip.
Niq (41:49):
Yes.
Jess (41:52):
Yeah, so that was interesting, their relationship.
I'm like I do not understandwhy the two of your friends and
here's the thing okay, so whatare their names?
Because I know you got thenames what are the two?
Niq (42:06):
names Olivia is the daughter and her friend's name
is Paula, paula, okay.
So I do not understand why thetwo of your friends, I don't
think two names.
Jess (42:10):
So Olivia is the daughter and her friend's name is Paula,
paula, okay.
So I do not understand why thetwo of you are friends.
I don't think you actuallyeither one of you likes the
other one, but you all are veryattached to each other.
Olivia is incredibly jealous ofPaula and I don't know what
Paula is getting out of thefriendship with Olivia, other
than stuff like you know, beingable to come.
(42:30):
But I'm like, but if you're inher orbit, you may not have as
much money as her, but I feellike you still would have some
money, like, so why do you needto attach yourself to her?
But yeah, they are frenemies,they are not actual friends.
And Olivia Paula says thatshe's like she's OK with me as
long as I don't advance past heror have more than she does, and
(42:51):
as soon as she does, she triesto tear that down, and you see
her do that actively.
Niq (43:00):
I honestly think that they are friends because they are
both mean girls and they bothhave that same jaded view of the
world that capitalism is bad.
But I don't know what to donext.
I don't really have real views,but I like to you know.
They have that same attitudeand they obviously both love
(43:25):
drugs and they're frenemies.
And there are certain sets ofgirls who that's all that they
know of friendship is thatfrenemy relationship hmm, yeah
my question go ahead is Oliviain love with Paula?
Jess (43:46):
yes, yes, I got that vibe too.
Olivia is in love with Paula.
She's very possessive of Paula.
Yes, yes, I got that vibe too.
Olivia is in love with Paula.
She's very possessive of Paula.
Yeah, to a point where it'suncomfortable.
It is Like the ASMR.
What was the?
Niq (44:05):
ASMR when they were doing the drugs and she was like you
want to do some ASMR, she's likelighting the drugs and she was
like you want to do some ASMRand she's like lighting the
lighter and rubbing her hair.
It was really intimate.
And I know girl friendships aredifferent.
Girl friendships they do have alevel of intimacy where it can
(44:27):
still be platonic.
But that was still a littleweird.
I think it was because theywere also like doing drugs.
Jess (44:35):
It just felt way intimate, no, the in the level of
possessiveness.
And I try to, I try to rememberbecause we've talked about this
before how, like when you'rethat, when you're that age well,
like you're coming out of highschool but you're not fully
adult, you're kind of in college, your friendships are
everything and they're, and theyare kind of um I don't know the
right word was like, like itmeshed like you're too involved
(44:56):
in each other's lives.
But it feels even beyond thatit does, it does, it does seem
like she's in love with paula,so she tries to sabotage any
relationship that she has with aman.
And I'm like it was.
I'm like from the, from thepoint where you realize that
paula doesn't want to tell herthat she met a guy that she
likes, because I'm like thatwould be the whole topic of
discussion.
If we were on a resort togetherat that age and we were single
(45:19):
and one of us met a guy that weliked, oh my God, we would be
talking about that the wholetime.
Niq (45:24):
Absolutely, it would be a huge deal.
Jess (45:27):
Okay, and then we would encourage each other Because we
got the sense.
Okay, and then we wouldencourage each other.
But the fact that she had tokeep it private and that she had
to hide it and sneak off, likeI get you sneaking off from the
parents, but like we would havesnuck off from the parents and
covered for each other, like shehas to sneak off from her
friend, that was weird.
Niq (45:48):
Olivia was also interrogating her about the guy
like it wasn't like, ooh, he'sso cute like it was like, are
you?
looking at him and like do youlike him?
You know it was it is.
I think I'm quite sure thatPaula's family is not as like
(46:12):
advanced as economicallyadvanced, because you can tell
one, I don't know what, whatPaula's ethnicity is ambiguous,
very ambiguous, like she couldeasily be like.
She looks like she could belike indigenous, but she looks
like she could be likeindigenous, but she looks like
she could also be like Latina,although those are not mutually
(46:35):
exclusive, depending on like,how you're.
But then she could also likeshe could also be Asian.
Jess (46:41):
I don't know she could be a lot of different things, but
she clearly has some tint to herskin and yeah, you can tell
that she, at the very least, hasexperienced some levels of
oppression.
Niq (46:57):
Yeah, based on her like identity, you can, you can tell
that.
So, although she is friends witholivia and she does have some
of those mean girl liketendencies, you can, you like
you could, tell her frustrationat being around these people who
are very rich, very privilegedand don't really understand what
(47:19):
real life is like yeah and so Ithink that she does enjoy her,
her friendship with, with olivia, because it does give her
access to some things that shedoesn't have access to, but it
also allows her to know andunderstand her enemy okay, but I
don't think that, like, paulais like a great person.
(47:44):
She's not a terrible person,but she is more flawed than
she's willing to give herselfcredit.
Yeah, because you are stilllike, in a lot of ways, aligning
yourself with these systemsthat you say that you don't
believe in yeah, absolutely,absolutely.
Jess (48:04):
even even spending time with this family, who has made
multiple racially and I assumelike this is not the first time
you spent time with her family,because they seem very familiar.
So they make comments like thisin front of you all the time,
and then even her and the dadget into it at dinner, kind of
like the dad is being reallyappropriate and saying some
(48:25):
really racially insensitivestuff directly to her, almost
like you know, demanding thatshe explain, or something like
that.
So and you still can choose tobe around these people.
Niq (48:36):
Right Now I'm going to tell you where Paula really really
goes off the deep end for mewhen she formulates this plan
with the guy that she met at theresort and convinces him to rob
the rich family so that he canuse the money you know for to
help out his community.
(48:57):
Yeah, this is crazy, that's oneI'm gonna say one.
It's crazy because, like, eventhough these are not the
greatest people, they still tookyou in and took you on a trip
with them.
Like that.
It's crazy because, like, eventhough these are not the
greatest people, they still tookyou in and took you on a trip
with them.
Like that, that's crazy.
Jess (49:15):
Second of all, like you did not think of the
consequences if things go bad atall, and that's where I feel
like her privilege is showingthat she's still growing up
somewhat affluent and in adifferent world, that she does
not even consider theconsequences for him.
Like you know what I mean,because if you really thought
through this, you would havestole it and then just gave it
(49:36):
to him Because there would nothave been consequences for you.
Niq (49:40):
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Jess (49:43):
You craft this ridiculous plan where he goes into the room
risking his job, his livelihood, everything his freedom.
Niq (49:56):
He did not want to do it.
He's like I'm not a thief,that's not how I operate.
Like she really browbeat thisboy into committing, like a
robbery that he did not want todo, for money he did not ask for
.
Yeah, he did not ask her foranything.
He didn't ask her for any money, no, he was just getting to
know her, letting her get toknow him, and she comes up with
(50:19):
this asinine plan which, ofcourse, falls apart and he ends
up in jail and she ends upcrying because she feels guilty
right, but going back to yourprevious life, right.
And who's there to pick up thepieces, but Olivia trying to get
in.
Jess (50:39):
Girl and I'm like run Paula, run, Run from this family
.
Niq (50:46):
I honestly was hoping that Kai was going to snitch on her
and say that she was involved,because she deserved to face the
consequences, because shecreated that situation, that
dumb plan.
And I hate that he is the onethat felt the consequences of
(51:06):
her crazy idea Me too.
So the family at the end of thetrip, of her crazy idea me too.
So I just like.
So the at the end of the tripbecause Kai, the wife ends up
coming back to the hotel earlyand is there when Kai is trying
to rob the safe.
The husband gets to be a heroand he gets to come in and swoop
(51:28):
in and save his wife.
Like their relationship gets abit of a boost.
The kids, like because theirparents were in danger, soften
towards the parents a little bit.
So, like they, I guess theyleave in a slightly better
(51:51):
position than they were.
Jess (51:52):
But it's so superficial I just don't think it'll last and
it's not going to last, andagain all these people are
affected, and then they'rebetter off even slightly,
without having made any realchange well, right, and there's
(52:14):
a worker that is hurt by it,like if you look, there's a
correlation.
Niq (52:20):
Belinda got hurt by Tanya and Kai got hurt by being
associated with Paula, who's, atthis point, a moss blocker
because she's on the trip withthem, and it's like once again
boundaries get pushed.
Paula, who's, at this point, amoss blocker because she's on
the trip with them, and it'slike you, like the once again
boundaries get pushed and theyare taking, even though they
come in, having everythingthey're taking from the lesser
(52:40):
people, and Kai ends up losinghis freedom and I just hate that
for him because he's a reallynice guy, really sweet guy and
did not want to do it.
Jess (52:48):
I reiterate did not want to do it.
I'm so did not want to do it.
I'm like I'm so wishing hewould have said no, but she
really.
I look like she pulled him inwith this idea that he could
reconnect to his community,because he was already
disconnected because he workedon the resort, and I think
that's what really got him.
But I'm like if you just took astep back and listen, like you
ought to know this is not goingto work out well for you and
(53:09):
she's going to be fine.
Niq (53:10):
Right, right.
So do you have any other partsof their story that you want to
discuss?
Jess (53:20):
I think we did pretty good .
Niq (53:22):
I think we covered.
I think we really did a goodjob.
We really covered all of them,okay, so thank you guys so much
for joining us for this.
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