February 14, 2025 • 37 mins
Some of us grew up hearing toxic, negative comments about our weight and we may now think, “Don’t ever talk about your kid’s body!” We understand that logic, but we must be careful. We can’t ignore extreme weight loss/gain or any other body changes our kids may be experiencing. We sit down with a licensed professional counselor to discuss body changes, eating disorders, and so much more!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Next Talk podcast.
We are a nonprofit passionateabout keeping kids safe online.
We're learning together how tonavigate tech, culture and faith
with our kids.
Today we are joined by JamieMershon.
She is an amazing licensedprofessional counselor.
(00:21):
She's partnered with us foryears.
I mean, I've sent so many kidsand families to you, um and she
is on our advisory council.
She's, thankfully, I can texther when I have immediate you
know, like, oh my gosh, this ishappening.
I need, I need some help here.
Yeah, I need some help anddirection, but Jamie's been
great.
If you haven't listened to someof her previous shows, like,
(00:44):
we'll link them, especially theeating disorder, because we're
going to get into that today andwe did a previous show about
that.
But before we get into thetopic at hand, why don't you
tell us just about you?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you for having me.
I'm always honored to be here,and a little bit about me is my
journey started as an elementaryschool teacher.
I taught first and third grade,and then God transitioned me
into the school counseling world, and that was just a really
incredible time in my life.
And then, when I got marriedand started having babies, god
(01:18):
took me out of that and put mein private practice, and he has
just blown my mind of how he hasgrown my practice, um, and I
have just been in the throes ofit while building this practice
of marriage and motherhood andall the things.
And so it's really cool, though, to just, you know, look back
and see all the different phasesand how God got me here today.
(01:41):
And yeah, and you have threekids, yes, three daughters.
And so we were overachieversand decided we were going to
have three kids in three and ahalf years, or God decided that
I should say.
And so, if you want somebodythat's like humble and relatable
and just you know, gets thecrazy and messiness of life.
I'm your gal, yeah, and thosekids are young.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I mean your oldest is late elementary school.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Exactly, that's the oldest.
That's the oldest, so you'rethe Uber, or second kinder?
Yeah, I am the Uber.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
No one's driving.
You're the school parties,you're it.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yes, and we're the kid house, and so, yeah, you're
in the thick of it.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yes, I love how God uses Jamie's experience as a mom
, as a parent, and merges itwith her um, her training and
her expertise as a counselor,and I think it's a very
invaluable thing, and so themore every time I'm with her I'm
like, okay, that was acounseling session.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
When I just what you just said, that you are so sweet
, Mandy.
Well, I you know.
As you know, I just take somuch comfort into the scripture,
Philippians one 6, right, andso how the Lord uses the couch
and even in my own life I lovethat scripture because he
started a good work in us anduntil our last breath, and we
are home with Christ, we are notcalled to perfection, we are
(02:58):
called to growth and there's alot of peace in that.
So that is always my goal ofhow the Lord uses the couch.
It represents growth.
How that scripture relates tomy life.
I'm not called to be theperfect mom or the perfect
counselor and I'm not going tosay everything perfect today,
right, but we're growing andwe're learning and that just is
so comforting to my heart.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, that's such a great scripture, such a great
scripture, and it's it's alsolike the tone of humility that
we want to be with our kids.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Like apologizing to our kids.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yes, Saying when we're wrong, understanding that
we're not always going to get itright.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah, and I often say that I'm like, hey, we're a
Philippians 1-6 family, yeah,right, like that doesn't just
apply to kids that are learningand growing.
That's I get it wrong so manytimes and yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I love that.
I mean, I know we have weposted something incorrect,
we've said something on thepodcast that didn't land the way
I thought it would and I'm like, oh, that's not what we meant.
But I understand how thosepeople took it that way,
absolutely.
And so we're all the work inprogress which leads me to.
We want to talk about bodyimage and eating disorders.
But really, what led to thisshow today was I saw a post by a
(04:04):
big account we follow, werecommend them all the time and
they're really focused ontalking to young kids about sex
and they just have some reallygreat practical one-liners.
You know that they just throwat people.
That's great and I love it.
But they had a post recentlythat I was like, oh, I don't
know about that, it got yourattention and it wasn't that I
was mad at them or upset oranything.
(04:26):
I was just like, oh, from thework that I've done over the
last decade and learning fromyou about, like, eating
disorders, it was just like Whoa, whoa, whoa, what if we have a
kid struggling with this?
And so first of all, I want toread the post to you and then I
want you to like give your hottake immediately and then let's
dive into it a little bit more.
(04:52):
Okay, so this is the post.
It says how to talk to yourchild about their body.
Step one don't.
Don't say anything if she'slost weight.
Don't say anything if he'sgained weight.
If you think your daughter'sbody looks amazing, don't say
that.
Don't talk about your body.
Don't talk about your diet.
Don't talk about how many carbsyou've had or how you wish you
could eat those French fries butcan't.
And then it goes on and on.
(05:13):
When I first saw it, I thought,oh, they do such good work and
I followed them for so long.
Probably the heart behind thatwas we grew up in a toxic
environment about body image andthey're trying to correct that.
Correct, because we did.
We grew up commenting onpeople's weight and all this
(05:35):
stuff and it's like Whoa, weneed to.
We need to fix that.
But what's your hot take Like?
What do you immediately thinkabout when I read that post?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I think you know, we're all healing and growing
and recovering, right, just from, maybe.
When I say recovering, maybejust from the lies or things
that in the past, it's like, oh,that could have been done
better.
And what I noticed is whenpeople start healing, um,
getting restored, recovering oreven grasping healthier concepts
(06:06):
, right, there's a level of apendulum and it's swinging and
so we kind of go extreme.
So maybe it was the extreme oflike there was so much focus on
it and now we're at the otherextreme, where that is saying
don't talk about it at all.
I think that's extreme too,right.
But if you think about a cordjust going side to side or a
(06:28):
string, eventually it's going toland in the middle, it's going
to calibrate and I think, aswe're diving into these topics,
everyone is going to findthemselves somewhere in this
pendulum and we want to findourselves in the middle where
it's healthy and it's balanced.
So stay out of the extremes,because basically, when they say
just don't talk about it at all, that's extreme and then uber
(06:51):
focused, that's an extreme.
So I think it's not all bad,not all good.
We just have to find ahealthier place to land, because
these kids do want to talkabout it, because something that
I've always said we run off ofbeliefs more than we run off a
reality, and kids are creatingbeliefs about their body,
they're creating relationshipswith their body and they do want
(07:15):
our input and they do want usto help them navigate their
changing bodies and help themestablish good, positive, you
know, habits.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I think that's the key for me.
I think that's why it it rubbedme so wrong.
It really did, because I waslike, okay, first of all, no
topic is off limits.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
And my mind went to if you have a kid who you see
significant weight gain orsignificant weight loss, like
that's a conversation, it's notshaming.
Of course we don't want anybodyto be like, oh my gosh, you
gained 50 pounds, what is upwith you?
Of course you don't say that.
But like we have to noticewhat's going on in our kids'
(07:59):
minds and in their narrativeRight, like that's important to
be able to connect with them.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Right, exactly, and just being in tune.
Because if you have a kidthat's saying like, oh, I'm so
hungry, I'm so hungry, and youmake their favorite meal and
they're not eating it, okay,what's that about?
You hear them, they're hungry,they have food that you know
they like and they're not eating, red flag.
But that's being in tune.
And so even just saying, hey,honey, like I've noticed, you're
(08:26):
saying you're really hungry, Icooked your favorite meal.
Can you help me understand?
You know, because that could bea red flag to an eating
disorder, right?
If a child who's always sayingI'm hungry or oh, I'll eat later
, and they never eat later, orthey're chewing lots of gum,
drinking lots of water, right,so a lot of this is this
entombment too, because whatthat post is saying just don't
bring it up at all.
(08:46):
Well, by not bringing it up, wecould really be ignoring
outcries or ignoring this childwho is in the throes of
something really dangerous.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Well, and there was.
You know, I commented and I wastrying to be very kind, I
wasn't trying to call them outat all.
I mean we have people commenton our posts and call us out and
we miss stuff.
We miss angles or just thoughtprocesses, it's not conflict,
it's just a conversation.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Because they posted that probably well-meaning, and
if we sat they'd probably have adifferent angle on it, right?
But because we're not privy tothat angle, we're just privy to
that angle, we're just privy towhat they put.
That sounds extreme.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Well, and what I was afraid is that parents would
internalize it Cause I've seenthis before with some of the
things I've said, that I willmake a blanket statement trying
to over-correct how we grew up,and then it's like parents get
the vibe of well, we can't everdo that.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
And I'm like.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Oh, that's not really what I.
I mean like I meant there's a,there's a middle ground, there's
a balance with all of it.
And so my fear, literally, wasthat parents would read that and
if they had a kid with extremeweight loss, they wouldn't seek
help, or they they would justsweep it under the rug, which is
one of the things that at nexttalk like it's just a no-no for
us, like we're not sweepinganything under the rug, we're
(09:58):
bringing in things into thelight, amen.
But I totally agree that wehave to do it in a healthy, very
healthy way.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So, as we were talking through this, one of the
things you said and I thinkthis is really important because
, looking back all over theyears, you know I have a girl
and a boy and, um, I thinksometimes like I would really
not bring up body stuff unlessthey started- Sure.
And I would see them to startto develop thoughts about their
(10:27):
body.
Yeah, my daughter and I tackledthis on a previous show.
I mean, she's really long legs,my husband's 6'4".
I get that.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Everybody in my house is tall but me.
We are going to have some tallgirls.
Yes, I get that.
Everybody knows I'm tall but me.
We are going to have some tallgirls.
Yes, I get that.
Everybody knows I'm tall but me.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
And she just was getting so frustrated about how
skirts fit on her and clothing.
Yeah, like it was her problem,like she's the problem, and I
remember just saying, babe, likeyour legs are beautiful, like I
know it feels like you're theproblem, but it's really the
clothing that's the problem.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Exactly Like.
I know it feels like you're theproblem, but it's really the
clothing that's the problem.
It's really like Well, youcorrected the narrative, you
gave her a different way to lookat it, right?
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yes, but I think that if I had bought into the don't
comment, because what if I saysomething wrong to see, then
then she would have keptbelieving the narrative that her
body was the problem.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Yeah, and you know, when I hear you say that,
something that I think of in thecounseling world is you know,
we do a lot of work with thebrain and earlier I said we run
off of beliefs more than we runoff of reality.
And so this visual I'll use alot is like imagine just a
pasture with like tall grassright, and here's the barn and
there's the water, and if ahorse goes from barn to water,
(11:36):
like one time, the grass isgoing to pop down and pop right
back up, right, but imagine,like months and years, of this
horse in this pasture going frombarn to water, water to barn,
barn to water, back and forth,right, like it's going to create
a path.
It is no longer just grasspopping up and down, it is a
deep rooted path and that's howGod's designed our brain, is
(11:59):
that we have neural pathways,and when we run off of those
beliefs and we practice thosebeliefs, whether they're true or
untrue, they're going to feellike reality.
So we're creating these neuralpathways, right, and a big one
is we have to make sure thatwe're understanding the
relationship our children havewith their body.
So, if the story, if thenarrative, if the belief is, you
(12:23):
know, I was created, you know,with long legs and the clothing
industry, you know, is notfavorable to my body, but I can
run and I love my hair or what,like you know what I'm saying,
though.
Like, what is theirconversation with themselves,
right?
Or is the conversation?
You know, I hate these longlegs.
(12:44):
Like I wish I looked more likeSarah, um, you know, I just, oh,
I just disgusted when I look inthe mirror.
Like years of that, right,that's a really negative
relationship.
That's why it's helpful to havethese conversations, because
you kind of get to understandwhat the relationship is with
your child and their body.
(13:04):
And sometimes we had to put thehorse in a new pasture and it's
like, okay, let's create a newpair, narrow pathway.
What's the truer story orwhat's the correct story?
Just like with your daughter,right Now, the legs aren't the
problem, the clothing is theproblem, and now you can focus
on solutions that okay, maybe wejust need to add extra fabric
or find different stores thatare meant for tall people or a
(13:26):
certain brand.
And so now you don't feelhelpless, you shift it to okay,
I'm just learning more about mybody, my style and what works
for my body type Exactly, andthat's exactly what we did.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
But it became about not her.
And I think that's reallyimportant, because if I had just
felt like, well, we can't evertalk about your body or what
you're struggling with orwhatever, then cause I'm going
to say something wrong orshameful that obviously I don't
want to do, right, I don't wantto make that mistake and if I do
, apologize, obviously own it,but, um, but I think that I
(13:59):
would have missed all of thoseconversations to redirect.
Like you said, put the horse ina new pasture.
Yeah, because that path wasforming, that my body's the
problem, yeah, and her body'snot the problem.
Her body's amazing.
And so when I saw in that post,don't tell your body it's
amazing, yeah, I'm like, well,not just randomly out of the
blue, don't focus on the body,but in context, it is really
(14:22):
important to tell your kid howamazing, they are.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And to highlight how they maybe different from others, yes,
exactly, and you know just.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
you know one thing you know having three girls, or,
you know, praying over them,like I love how God designed you
, like I love your eyes, I loveyour hair.
You know, when we think aboutbody, we often think of just
weight.
It's really creating arelationship with yourself.
You know, lately, my littlenine-year-old she's almost 10.
She's really been into skincareand I love that right, because
(14:52):
she gets to connect with hergender, of just you know, of
getting all dolled up or takingcare of herself.
You know all that, all that funstuff that we as girls like to
do skincare, feeling pretty, youknow.
But one of the things that Ipointed out is I love how you
steward your body.
You are so good at, you know,taking the time and cleaning
(15:15):
your skin.
You're really good about washingyour hair and combing it and
braiding it.
I just love how you take suchgreat care of your body, because
if you think about a treasure,right, you're going to protect
it, you're going to take care ofit, and her body is her
treasure, right, and she's beinga good steward of it, and so
(15:36):
it's.
There's so many ways we cantake care of our body other than
our weight, and I just callthem habits, right, like you
have so many great habits, youknow.
And sometimes, if I, you know,hear kids talk about like, oh my
, I don't like how I feel in mybody.
You know.
Well, tell me all the reallygood habits you think that you
do.
You know they're like well, Idrink a lot of water and you
(15:58):
know I'm really good aboutgetting enough sleep.
Great, let's keep doing thosethings.
What's something that we couldadd to your habits, you know?
And sometimes they say, well,you know I could move more.
Great, like, add that to thelist, right, it doesn't have to
be this like huge focus andcatastrophize it, right, it's
just a conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
When you said in the very beginning of all those
examples, you said when we thinkabout body, we automatically go
to weights, and I think that isthe problem, because we've all
been raised in that generationwhere we we have some scars from
that.
Yeah, and I think that is thatwas really what we're talking
about here, because it's waymore than just weight, our body.
We're way more than what weweigh, what size we are.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
I think that's the lie, though, is our worth is
connected either to performanceor our worth is connected to
weight.
That can also often be the lie,right, our achievements and how
we look, because that's alloutward yeah, Right.
What do you have to offer?
Right, you know, and so I thinkit's really important that we
understand.
Yeah, there's so many parts toit other than just a weight.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
So okay, so as a, as a counselor, I mean you see kids
with eating disorders, youtreat them, say we have a parent
at home and they haven'tnoticed extreme weight loss or
weight gain and haven't noticedextreme weight loss or weight
gain and they haven't.
The kid is not sharing it withthe parents.
Okay, so we don't have an endto start talking about it.
(17:24):
So it is kind of awkward tojust bring it up.
Sure, what is your best pieceof advice for parents in that
situation?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I mean, obviously the goal is always to be in tune
with our children, right?
Well, in there's a level ofstudying them, like kind of what
I said earlier.
Like they're saying they'rehungry and they're not eating.
It could just be as simple ashelp me understand.
Hey, I've just noticed you'vebeen saying you're hungry a lot
and I'm making dinner, butyou're not eating.
Can you help me understandwhat's going on with that?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Cause sometimes they don't know how to advocate.
They really want somebody tonotice I'm not well.
So it's this like one foot inthe dark and one foot, please
help me.
Yeah, Right, Cause normally itstarts with both feet in the
dark and then it starts gettingto this place where it's kind of
scary, right when they're likeOoh, this is getting slippery
slope.
It's really just kind of not,because oftentimes we may, you
(18:15):
know, come across as accusatory.
I think help me understand isjust a really good.
Keep the walls down, right,Like where somebody doesn't get
defensive.
Or hey, I'm confused about this, right, You're, you're seeking
understanding, You're notaccusing or anything.
Or you know what I have beennoticing, um, you know you're
(18:36):
eating in your room, more youknow, and you're not out here
with a family, you know issomething going on or has
something shifted, you know.
And so that tells that childlike, oh, my mom's noticing, she
sees me, she can tell thatsomething's off.
And so I think oftentimes we dohave to push in, but we have to
(18:56):
do it in a way that doesn'tcreate that child to be
defensive or feel like we'recoming after them or that
they're in trouble.
Yeah, but we also have to bewilling to go to that hard place
too.
If they're pretty dug in andthey're like I'm fine, Nothing's
wrong, we have to be ready to,um, you know, have those hard
conversations of you know what?
I've actually been outside thebathroom door and I've been
(19:19):
hearing you throw up, or I'vebeen noticing you stuffing food
in napkins, Like there comes toa place where we just have to
call it what it is, becausethat's loving.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I love this because, you know, in the comments of
course I chimed in with whatabout eating disorders and all
of that?
But but what was really amazingwas people were sharing their
stories, their vulnerablestories, and you know, one
person chimed in.
I didn't know who she was, butbut she said I'm.
You know.
I'm glad you said this becauseI suffered with an eating
(19:50):
disorder and nobody spoke up forme.
Yeah, and it was almost likeshe.
I'm not, I don't want to speakfor her, but but what I
interpreted that was like shedidn't feel seen and she was
struggling and nobody advocatedfor her.
Right, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
And.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I think that's where we have to be super careful
telling parents, like, don'ttalk about that or don't do that
because we do internalize thatand it's off limits somehow.
Even if it's in a generalcontext of our parents screwed
this up.
We have to be very careful withthis topic and eating disorders
look different.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Right Like anorexia and bulimia used to be the
go-tos, right Now it'sorthorexia, where kids are
getting praised.
It's extreme clean eating.
I only eat organic, I only eatsalads, right, and so you see
them eating.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And that's people don't think of that as an eating
disorder.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Dive into that a little bit more for me.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Because, sometimes we're like oh that's a healthy
habit Right.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
But when does it?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
become extreme Right, and I think it's just, you know
, when it becomes veryrestrictive right.
Like obviously there's moremedical things going on, like
gluten and celiac, like there'smore awareness around that stuff
.
So some people truly like thatis medically how they need to
have their diet Right.
But then there's the otherextreme too, where, yeah, it's
extreme eating.
Like you know, I'm not going toeat the cake, or I won't eat
(21:05):
anything if it's not organic, oryou know, I'm really good about
just eating this protein.
There's so many different dietsout there too.
And so for growing kids, like Ido think there is a fine line of
not there's just education, Ithink there's just education to
how you need to educate yourkids.
Like there's not good foods andbad foods, right.
(21:27):
Too much of anything is notgood, Right.
And so kind of teaching kids tobe in tune with their body,
right, we eat when we're hungry.
We stop when we're full,because, you know, another
eating disorder is just bingeeating, where kids are
overeating and we've seen thependulum swing.
On the other word, like allbodies are acceptable, which for
(21:47):
somebody who has struggled withweight, like yeah, I am glad
that sizes look different thanthey did when I was a kid Cause
I remember having to shop likein the guy section.
Sometimes it is still one ofthose things where I think that
we have to educate our childrenon what healthy habits look like
and what a healthy relationshiplooks like with food.
So sometimes it starts with us,because we don't have a good
(22:10):
relationship with our body andour food habits, and other times
it comes to we're so scaredthat we're like but if I say
this, are they going to thinkI'm shaming them?
And so I think it's just reallybeing mindful and discerning on
how to have those conversations.
But just in general, so if youhave one kid who's really
struggling, you know we're goingto maybe just change what
(22:31):
family dinners look like.
We're not going to focus onthat, just one child.
It's like hey, guys, like Itried this new recipe, or we're
going to start family walks orwhatever it looks like.
There's just ways that we canjust incorporate healthy habits
to maybe not single one personout, but just as a family like,
yeah, we should be more mindfulor have conversations.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Well, and I think too , we see a lot in this
generation like they're justrotting on their phones all the
time, Exactly, and so you know alot of the unhealthy stuff.
Sometimes it's just aboutmoving and it's not really
anything to do with your body.
This is about your mind too,and having those you know and
like, if you're up rotting,scrolling on your phone all
(23:11):
night, you're, you're probablynot going to be at your
healthiest mentally, physically,anything Exactly and so attack
it from the street.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Logical, right.
This isn't like emotional, thisisn't attackable, like take all
emotions out of it, right?
What kid do you think is goingto feel better?
You know one that went to bedat a decent time, that you know.
Not even comparison, but justlook at it logically, right,
like a child who's up till twoin the morning on a screen and
they've been on the screen sincethey got out of school Like,
(23:42):
obviously that child is notgoing to feel his best, compared
to a child who you know, playedoutside for a bit, did their
homework, ate dinner, hadappropriate screen time, but at
a different time.
There's just a better waysometimes and it doesn't have to
be personal there's just abetter way sometimes.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And it doesn't have to be personal.
There is just a better waysometimes, you know.
Just going back to what yousaid about the, the eating
disorder, what did you call it?
Orthorexia, orthorexia.
Yeah so that is like healthyeating total yes.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
I think people working out is connected to that
too.
So you're working out, it'sjust ultra healthy, but again
it's that extreme.
And I think that is such a goodpoint there, because it's good,
that's good that you're doingthat and you're getting praised
on self-control and you'regetting praised on those habits.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
And oh, my word, you look great You're disciplined?
Yes, you're disciplined, but itcan come to a point where you
spend more time countingcalories and looking at labels
than you do living your life,and that's when it gets kind of
off balance.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
And I think what we have to be careful here is
nobody wakes up and says I'mgoing to start eating disorder
today it's a nine out of 10.
It starts with good intentions.
Just let me change things up.
And then it gets extreme, right, because people say start
noticing like, oh, you've lostweight, looks so great.
Well, how did I look before?
I lost weight?
Right?
(25:02):
People are noticing me now more, but they didn't comment like
that before.
So it starts to mess with yourmind and that's why we have to.
That talking is so important,right, and just helping anytime,
like our kids are saying youknow, if you do have a child
that's overweight and they're inan unhealthy situation and they
say I really need to work onbeing more healthy, right,
(25:23):
they're coming to you.
Just be mindful, as you startgetting healthy, right, that
you're having the correctconversations and you're
monitoring it because lots oftimes something like I said
starts off well-meaning andreally good, because there are
kids who get to a place wherethey're like, you know what, I
don't feel good in my body, andthat's them being in tune, and
that's not a bad thing, yeah,but we just have to help them
(25:45):
walk through.
What does healthy weight losslook like?
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Well, and that goes back to taking care of a
treasure your body is a temple,like managing and stewarding
that well.
I think are all really goodconversations.
I also just want to point out,you know, I mean I'm guilty of
this.
I think of eating disorders, Ithink of girls, and I think it's
normal.
I mean, most of the girls aresuffering from eating disorders.
(26:10):
But you know, I'm raising a boy,teen boy he's an athlete and
it's constantly more protein,more calories, more whatever.
And again I'm talking to himabout hey, you're able to eat
5,000 calories right now becauseyou've got a lot of energy that
you're burning and muscle thatyou're going, but you can't eat
(26:34):
5,000 calories when you're myage.
Yes, but like you can't eat5,000 calories when you're my
age, and like I will say to himif I ate 5,000 calories I would
be really overweight, and not ingood health, like not, not even
so, not worried about my body,not in good health.
And so you know, maybe that'sright, maybe that's wrong, but I
really take an open doorapproach to that because I don't
(26:57):
want him to think this is hishabit for the rest of his life.
You can't eat 5,000 caloriesfor the rest of your life, and
it's not anything about his body.
I feel like it's more likescientific biological To me.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
what pops into my head?
That's just education.
I'm just understanding, likewhen you're an athlete, this is
what you need.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Right, and when you're not, it's going to look
different, and so you're not.
It doesn't sound like you'reputting this huge emphasis on it
, but it was definitely aconversation, so it's not this
repeated thing like every day.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Hey, just remember, I think we talked about it once,
for 10 minutes Exactly.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Right, and so I think it's like when kids hear things
like over and over, it's like,oh, like that's starting that
neural pathway.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
That's the problem with the body is shaming.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Right, but if it's more just an educational piece
and it's just a goodconversation.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I think that is very healthy, yeah.
And then we move on Right anddon't dwell on it.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Don't nag your kid about their weight, don't you
know?
Of course, my daughter saidsomething on one of the recent
shows.
She said shame is not a goodtactic for anything.
And that has stuck in my mindand I think parents, sometimes
we feel like we can shame ourkids into something Absolutely
(28:11):
Even.
I see that a lot with, likenon-disciplined kids or kids
that are struggling in school.
Well, you know, I'm just goingto put the hammer down and
they're not going to have this,this and this until they get all
A's.
Well, I don't know if that'sthe approach.
Maybe talk about why are youstruggling?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Why do you think you're struggling in school?
I mean, it could be somethingthat they're struggling with.
With their eyes, they can't seesomething right.
It could be an attentionCompletely.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I mean, it could be lots of different things.
Right, and I think that justgoes back to being in tune,
right, because the kids learnlike oh, you'd like me when I'm
a red car, I'll pretend I'm ared car, right, that doesn't
change anything about the car,you just put new paint on it.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
And so I think you want to love you.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
No matter what Right Exactly Like we'll work through
it.
Yeah, so I think it's.
It's being a safe person.
I think because, like these arejust this is the tale as old as
time, right, weightrelationships with bodies right,
we've seen it go so manydifferent cycles and it really
just comes down to relationalLike moms and daughters, sons,
(29:07):
moms, dads, sons, all of it Likethese are just this is a normal
part of life to have theseconversations.
Food is such a huge part of ourlife.
Yeah, we got to shop for it.
We got our life.
Yeah, we got to shop for it.
We got to put it away.
We got to cook it.
We got to clean up from it.
It's around so many things.
So, like it should not be ataboo thing.
We just just like we shouldhave a healthy relationship with
(29:30):
food.
We should also have a healthyrelationship having
conversations around it.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, okay.
I want to ask you one morething.
Tell me, as a counselor, youthink, mandy, you're right,
you're not right, or?
you know, maybe I'm both maybeI'm both.
So you've got a kid goingthrough puberty and either
they're going through at a highrate of speed, like faster than
everybody else, or they're verydelighted, and each kid's going
to be different on that, even inyour own family, and so if you
(29:56):
see your kid when I was walkingthrough all that, it's not
something that I wouldconstantly point out or anything
like that, but if my kidsstarted to talk about it, well,
this person has this and I don'tor they have that and they're
getting noticed and I don'tAgain.
Those were the conversationsthat I would sweep in and be
(30:17):
like okay, there's absolutelynothing wrong with you.
Yeah, everybody's going throughpuberty and each person is
different and they mature atdifferent times.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Love that.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
So just because you're not maturing right now
like all of these people, thatdoesn't mean anything is wrong
with you Absolutely, you have totrust God's timing on that,
right, exactly, and also howhe's designed you there.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
They trust God's timing on them, right, exactly,
and also how he's designed you.
There are just going to becertain things we can't change.
Like you know, your daughter'stall, my daughters are going to
be tall Like I'm 5'11", myhusband's 6'8".
Sorry, genetics.
Like this is your reality,right, yeah.
And so there's a level ofyou're right, like they can't
change their height, and how youget proportioned and how you go
(30:56):
through puberty and where youput on weight and where you
don't.
Right.
There is a level of notcomparing but also just
accepting.
This is my journey with my bodyright.
Accepting yourself.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yes exactly and honestly, jamie I think this
also goes into, like kids whostruggle with their gender
there's there's, there's a,there's an acceptance there of
you may feel these qualities andyou can have those qualities.
I mean, it's cool if you're adude and you love baking, you
know pink or whatever thestereotypical boxes that we put
(31:31):
people in, but it's almost likethis.
We we've gotten into the habitof not loving ourself the way we
are If we're big bones if we'reif we're tall if we're
whatever color hair we have we,we live in this like drive
through society where if I don'tlike my eyes, I change them.
If I don't like my hair, Ichange them.
If I don't like this, I'm goingto change them.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
You know you use that word earlier shame.
And I think that is such apowerful tool of the enemy
because anytime you look ataddiction or change, what I
always say is let's just go withthe need disorder, right,
that's.
That's an addiction, right?
It's not the problem, it's thesolution.
And essentially, is you feelshame, so you want to get as far
(32:17):
away from yourself as possible.
So how do we get far away aspossible?
I'm going to transform myself,I'm going to look different, I'm
going to get drunk, I'm goingto get high it's anything that
takes you away from your shame,right.
And so an addiction or genderconfusion, all that right.
(32:37):
Oftentimes it is not theproblem, it's the solution To a
deeper problem.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yes, right, like maybe some so unresolved trauma,
or I'm numbing myself for this,or or I just don't like who I
am and the narrative is going onin the brain that you are not.
You are not enough.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
And I mean, that's what it is.
You are not enough, Absolutely,and we also just have to really
look.
Even this could be a wholedifferent podcast with, like,
just you know, going back to theeating disorders, but like,
let's not overlook any level oftrauma either, because trauma
and eating disorders go hand inhand, and so that's, that's a
deeper question, right, um, itcould be the society we live in,
(33:20):
right?
Where then, is you know, um,what's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
You know my worst accepted yeah, or it's just kind
of like it's praised, I guess.
Right, right, idolized, that'sthe word.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Right.
So when we idolize stuff right,sometimes it truly is like we
want to become that because it'slike, oh, that's idolized,
right.
But sometimes it's rooted insomething deeper.
So we want to be reallyprayerful that we're not
overlooking something, becausesometimes it can be, or we want
to go to something that'sidolized, or sometimes it's.
We're working through atraumatic experience and it's
(33:58):
manifesting through an eatingdisorder.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
So good, so good.
There's so much to unpack here.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Is there anything else that you would want to say
on the topic of?
I mean, I know we can go deeperinto trauma- and eating
disorders, but on this show,like just this general show,
body image or eating disorders,anything you want to throw out
there to parents.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
I really think, just you know, we've covered an array
of different things right,which I think is good, because
just I think everyone there's atakeaway in here for everyone,
and I think we've touched on alot of things that kids are
dealing with, and so my takeawayis just have conversations
about it, just like we're doingright now.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Healthy healthy.
Non-shaming, non judgmental.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Don't call out your kid's weight, obviously, but
talk about their bodies.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Yeah, talk about their bodies and make sure that
you're in a place to them.
So this may be promptingsomebody to say, okay, what, if?
What have I projected?
What have I modeled?
Or why do I feel uncomfortablelistening to this?
Or even if we're kind of likejudgy or walling up, like I
don't agree with that, right,sometimes it's because it's it's
(35:09):
hitting a tender point with usor an on heel point.
So I would even just encouragelisteners to really take a deep
dive into their own relationshipwith their body and their
history with food.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Look in the mirror.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Look in the mirror and we spill that over to our
kids, not realizing itcompletely.
And that's where it gets sotoxic, yes, so toxic, and I
think that was probably in theintent of the original host for
sure, but I'm glad we were ableto dive into it.
I'm glad you came on the showbecause I just from a licensed
professional counselor and amama girl mom, you're juggling
(35:42):
all this too and I think that itwas a really helpful insight.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm on the journey.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
I'm on it with y'all, like yes, and I feel like every
mom I mean I don't want tospeak for dads, but I feel like
every mom has a body journey,Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
I mean, we've had babies.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I'm in now, you know, menopause, which is a whole
other beast to manage on how mybody is changing, right and
medical stuff yeah.
Yeah, but I'm even talking tomy daughter.
She's getting ready to be 21.
I'm even talking to her aboutwhat I'm going through with
menopause.
Yeah, just in the sense of notcomplaining or not, you know,
(36:24):
making fun of myself.
But like, this is an ongoingjourney of getting to know
myself.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
And loving me, no matter what.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Yeah, and I think you're just showing her
vulnerability and you're showingher that, like, this isn't a
taboo subject, right, you'rejust normalizing it Our bodies
are going to change over timeand we need to talk about it
Amen.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Okay, thanks for being here, jamie.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Next Talk is a 501c3 nonprofit keeping kids safe
online.
To support our work, make adonation at nexttalkorg.
Next Talk resources are notintended to replace the advice
of a trained healthcare or legalprofessional, or to diagnose,
treat or otherwise render expertadvice regarding any type of
medical, psychological, legal,financial or other problem.
You are advised to consult aqualified expert for your
(37:09):
personal treatment plan.
Welcome to the Next Talk podcast.
We are a nonprofit passionateabout keeping kids safe online.
We're learning together how tonavigate tech, culture and faith
with our kids.
Today we are joined by JamieMershon.
She is an amazing licensedprofessional counselor.
(00:21):
She's partnered with us foryears.
I mean, I've sent so many kidsand families to you, um and she
is on our advisory council.
She's, thankfully, I can texther when I have immediate you
know, like, oh my gosh, this ishappening.
I need, I need some help here.
Yeah, I need some help anddirection, but Jamie's been
great.
If you haven't listened to someof her previous shows, like,
(00:44):
we'll link them, especially theeating disorder, because we're
going to get into that today andwe did a previous show about
that.
But before we get into thetopic at hand, why don't you
tell us just about you?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you for having me.
I'm always honored to be here,and a little bit about me is my
journey started as an elementaryschool teacher.
I taught first and third grade,and then God transitioned me
into the school counseling world, and that was just a really
incredible time in my life.
And then, when I got marriedand started having babies, god
(01:18):
took me out of that and put mein private practice, and he has
just blown my mind of how he hasgrown my practice, um, and I
have just been in the throes ofit while building this practice
of marriage and motherhood andall the things.
And so it's really cool, though, to just, you know, look back
and see all the different phasesand how God got me here today.
(01:41):
And yeah, and you have threekids, yes, three daughters.
And so we were overachieversand decided we were going to
have three kids in three and ahalf years, or God decided that
I should say.
And so, if you want somebodythat's like humble and relatable
and just you know, gets thecrazy and messiness of life.
I'm your gal, yeah, and thosekids are young.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I mean your oldest is late elementary school.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Exactly, that's the oldest.
That's the oldest, so you'rethe Uber, or second kinder?
Yeah, I am the Uber.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
No one's driving.
You're the school parties,you're it.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yes, and we're the kid house, and so, yeah, you're
in the thick of it.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yes, I love how God uses Jamie's experience as a mom
, as a parent, and merges itwith her um, her training and
her expertise as a counselor,and I think it's a very
invaluable thing, and so themore every time I'm with her I'm
like, okay, that was acounseling session.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
When I just what you just said, that you are so sweet
, Mandy.
Well, I you know.
As you know, I just take somuch comfort into the scripture,
Philippians one 6, right, andso how the Lord uses the couch
and even in my own life I lovethat scripture because he
started a good work in us anduntil our last breath, and we
are home with Christ, we are notcalled to perfection, we are
(02:58):
called to growth and there's alot of peace in that.
So that is always my goal ofhow the Lord uses the couch.
It represents growth.
How that scripture relates tomy life.
I'm not called to be theperfect mom or the perfect
counselor and I'm not going tosay everything perfect today,
right, but we're growing andwe're learning and that just is
so comforting to my heart.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, that's such a great scripture, such a great
scripture, and it's it's alsolike the tone of humility that
we want to be with our kids.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Like apologizing to our kids.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yes, Saying when we're wrong, understanding that
we're not always going to get itright.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yeah, and I often say that I'm like, hey, we're a
Philippians 1-6 family, yeah,right, like that doesn't just
apply to kids that are learningand growing.
That's I get it wrong so manytimes and yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I love that.
I mean, I know we have weposted something incorrect,
we've said something on thepodcast that didn't land the way
I thought it would and I'm like, oh, that's not what we meant.
But I understand how thosepeople took it that way,
absolutely.
And so we're all the work inprogress which leads me to.
We want to talk about bodyimage and eating disorders.
But really, what led to thisshow today was I saw a post by a
(04:04):
big account we follow, werecommend them all the time and
they're really focused ontalking to young kids about sex
and they just have some reallygreat practical one-liners.
You know that they just throwat people.
That's great and I love it.
But they had a post recentlythat I was like, oh, I don't
know about that, it got yourattention and it wasn't that I
was mad at them or upset oranything.
(04:26):
I was just like, oh, from thework that I've done over the
last decade and learning fromyou about, like, eating
disorders, it was just like Whoa, whoa, whoa, what if we have a
kid struggling with this?
And so first of all, I want toread the post to you and then I
want you to like give your hottake immediately and then let's
dive into it a little bit more.
(04:52):
Okay, so this is the post.
It says how to talk to yourchild about their body.
Step one don't.
Don't say anything if she'slost weight.
Don't say anything if he'sgained weight.
If you think your daughter'sbody looks amazing, don't say
that.
Don't talk about your body.
Don't talk about your diet.
Don't talk about how many carbsyou've had or how you wish you
could eat those French fries butcan't.
And then it goes on and on.
(05:13):
When I first saw it, I thought,oh, they do such good work and
I followed them for so long.
Probably the heart behind thatwas we grew up in a toxic
environment about body image andthey're trying to correct that.
Correct, because we did.
We grew up commenting onpeople's weight and all this
(05:35):
stuff and it's like Whoa, weneed to.
We need to fix that.
But what's your hot take Like?
What do you immediately thinkabout when I read that post?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I think you know, we're all healing and growing
and recovering, right, just from, maybe.
When I say recovering, maybejust from the lies or things
that in the past, it's like, oh,that could have been done
better.
And what I noticed is whenpeople start healing, um,
getting restored, recovering oreven grasping healthier concepts
(06:06):
, right, there's a level of apendulum and it's swinging and
so we kind of go extreme.
So maybe it was the extreme oflike there was so much focus on
it and now we're at the otherextreme, where that is saying
don't talk about it at all.
I think that's extreme too,right.
But if you think about a cordjust going side to side or a
(06:28):
string, eventually it's going toland in the middle, it's going
to calibrate and I think, aswe're diving into these topics,
everyone is going to findthemselves somewhere in this
pendulum and we want to findourselves in the middle where
it's healthy and it's balanced.
So stay out of the extremes,because basically, when they say
just don't talk about it at all, that's extreme and then uber
(06:51):
focused, that's an extreme.
So I think it's not all bad,not all good.
We just have to find ahealthier place to land, because
these kids do want to talkabout it, because something that
I've always said we run off ofbeliefs more than we run off a
reality, and kids are creatingbeliefs about their body,
they're creating relationshipswith their body and they do want
(07:15):
our input and they do want usto help them navigate their
changing bodies and help themestablish good, positive, you
know, habits.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I think that's the key for me.
I think that's why it it rubbedme so wrong.
It really did, because I waslike, okay, first of all, no
topic is off limits.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
And my mind went to if you have a kid who you see
significant weight gain orsignificant weight loss, like
that's a conversation, it's notshaming.
Of course we don't want anybodyto be like, oh my gosh, you
gained 50 pounds, what is upwith you?
Of course you don't say that.
But like we have to noticewhat's going on in our kids'
(07:59):
minds and in their narrativeRight, like that's important to
be able to connect with them.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Right, exactly, and just being in tune.
Because if you have a kidthat's saying like, oh, I'm so
hungry, I'm so hungry, and youmake their favorite meal and
they're not eating it, okay,what's that about?
You hear them, they're hungry,they have food that you know
they like and they're not eating, red flag.
But that's being in tune.
And so even just saying, hey,honey, like I've noticed, you're
(08:26):
saying you're really hungry, Icooked your favorite meal.
Can you help me understand?
You know, because that could bea red flag to an eating
disorder, right?
If a child who's always sayingI'm hungry or oh, I'll eat later
, and they never eat later, orthey're chewing lots of gum,
drinking lots of water, right,so a lot of this is this
entombment too, because whatthat post is saying just don't
bring it up at all.
(08:46):
Well, by not bringing it up, wecould really be ignoring
outcries or ignoring this childwho is in the throes of
something really dangerous.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Well, and there was.
You know, I commented and I wastrying to be very kind, I
wasn't trying to call them outat all.
I mean we have people commenton our posts and call us out and
we miss stuff.
We miss angles or just thoughtprocesses, it's not conflict,
it's just a conversation.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Because they posted that probably well-meaning, and
if we sat they'd probably have adifferent angle on it, right?
But because we're not privy tothat angle, we're just privy to
that angle, we're just privy towhat they put.
That sounds extreme.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Well, and what I was afraid is that parents would
internalize it Cause I've seenthis before with some of the
things I've said, that I willmake a blanket statement trying
to over-correct how we grew up,and then it's like parents get
the vibe of well, we can't everdo that.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
And I'm like.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Oh, that's not really what I.
I mean like I meant there's a,there's a middle ground, there's
a balance with all of it.
And so my fear, literally, wasthat parents would read that and
if they had a kid with extremeweight loss, they wouldn't seek
help, or they they would justsweep it under the rug, which is
one of the things that at nexttalk like it's just a no-no for
us, like we're not sweepinganything under the rug, we're
(09:58):
bringing in things into thelight, amen.
But I totally agree that wehave to do it in a healthy, very
healthy way.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So, as we were talking through this, one of the
things you said and I thinkthis is really important because
, looking back all over theyears, you know I have a girl
and a boy and, um, I thinksometimes like I would really
not bring up body stuff unlessthey started- Sure.
And I would see them to startto develop thoughts about their
(10:27):
body.
Yeah, my daughter and I tackledthis on a previous show.
I mean, she's really long legs,my husband's 6'4".
I get that.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Everybody in my house is tall but me.
We are going to have some tallgirls.
Yes, I get that.
Everybody knows I'm tall but me.
We are going to have some tallgirls.
Yes, I get that.
Everybody knows I'm tall but me.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
And she just was getting so frustrated about how
skirts fit on her and clothing.
Yeah, like it was her problem,like she's the problem, and I
remember just saying, babe, likeyour legs are beautiful, like I
know it feels like you're theproblem, but it's really the
clothing that's the problem.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Exactly Like.
I know it feels like you're theproblem, but it's really the
clothing that's the problem.
It's really like Well, youcorrected the narrative, you
gave her a different way to lookat it, right?
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yes, but I think that if I had bought into the don't
comment, because what if I saysomething wrong to see, then
then she would have keptbelieving the narrative that her
body was the problem.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Yeah, and you know, when I hear you say that,
something that I think of in thecounseling world is you know,
we do a lot of work with thebrain and earlier I said we run
off of beliefs more than we runoff of reality.
And so this visual I'll use alot is like imagine just a
pasture with like tall grassright, and here's the barn and
there's the water, and if ahorse goes from barn to water,
(11:36):
like one time, the grass isgoing to pop down and pop right
back up, right, but imagine,like months and years, of this
horse in this pasture going frombarn to water, water to barn,
barn to water, back and forth,right, like it's going to create
a path.
It is no longer just grasspopping up and down, it is a
deep rooted path and that's howGod's designed our brain, is
(11:59):
that we have neural pathways,and when we run off of those
beliefs and we practice thosebeliefs, whether they're true or
untrue, they're going to feellike reality.
So we're creating these neuralpathways, right, and a big one
is we have to make sure thatwe're understanding the
relationship our children havewith their body.
So, if the story, if thenarrative, if the belief is, you
(12:23):
know, I was created, you know,with long legs and the clothing
industry, you know, is notfavorable to my body, but I can
run and I love my hair or what,like you know what I'm saying,
though.
Like, what is theirconversation with themselves,
right?
Or is the conversation?
You know, I hate these longlegs.
(12:44):
Like I wish I looked more likeSarah, um, you know, I just, oh,
I just disgusted when I look inthe mirror.
Like years of that, right,that's a really negative
relationship.
That's why it's helpful to havethese conversations, because
you kind of get to understandwhat the relationship is with
your child and their body.
(13:04):
And sometimes we had to put thehorse in a new pasture and it's
like, okay, let's create a newpair, narrow pathway.
What's the truer story orwhat's the correct story?
Just like with your daughter,right Now, the legs aren't the
problem, the clothing is theproblem, and now you can focus
on solutions that okay, maybe wejust need to add extra fabric
or find different stores thatare meant for tall people or a
(13:26):
certain brand.
And so now you don't feelhelpless, you shift it to okay,
I'm just learning more about mybody, my style and what works
for my body type Exactly, andthat's exactly what we did.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
But it became about not her.
And I think that's reallyimportant, because if I had just
felt like, well, we can't evertalk about your body or what
you're struggling with orwhatever, then cause I'm going
to say something wrong orshameful that obviously I don't
want to do, right, I don't wantto make that mistake and if I do
, apologize, obviously own it,but, um, but I think that I
(13:59):
would have missed all of thoseconversations to redirect.
Like you said, put the horse ina new pasture.
Yeah, because that path wasforming, that my body's the
problem, yeah, and her body'snot the problem.
Her body's amazing.
And so when I saw in that post,don't tell your body it's
amazing, yeah, I'm like, well,not just randomly out of the
blue, don't focus on the body,but in context, it is really
(14:22):
important to tell your kid howamazing, they are.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And to highlight how they maybe different from others, yes,
exactly, and you know just.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
you know one thing you know having three girls, or,
you know, praying over them,like I love how God designed you
, like I love your eyes, I loveyour hair.
You know, when we think aboutbody, we often think of just
weight.
It's really creating arelationship with yourself.
You know, lately, my littlenine-year-old she's almost 10.
She's really been into skincareand I love that right, because
(14:52):
she gets to connect with hergender, of just you know, of
getting all dolled up or takingcare of herself.
You know all that, all that funstuff that we as girls like to
do skincare, feeling pretty, youknow.
But one of the things that Ipointed out is I love how you
steward your body.
You are so good at, you know,taking the time and cleaning
(15:15):
your skin.
You're really good about washingyour hair and combing it and
braiding it.
I just love how you take suchgreat care of your body, because
if you think about a treasure,right, you're going to protect
it, you're going to take care ofit, and her body is her
treasure, right, and she's beinga good steward of it, and so
(15:36):
it's.
There's so many ways we cantake care of our body other than
our weight, and I just callthem habits, right, like you
have so many great habits, youknow.
And sometimes, if I, you know,hear kids talk about like, oh my
, I don't like how I feel in mybody.
You know.
Well, tell me all the reallygood habits you think that you
do.
You know they're like well, Idrink a lot of water and you
(15:58):
know I'm really good aboutgetting enough sleep.
Great, let's keep doing thosethings.
What's something that we couldadd to your habits, you know?
And sometimes they say, well,you know I could move more.
Great, like, add that to thelist, right, it doesn't have to
be this like huge focus andcatastrophize it, right, it's
just a conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
When you said in the very beginning of all those
examples, you said when we thinkabout body, we automatically go
to weights, and I think that isthe problem, because we've all
been raised in that generationwhere we we have some scars from
that.
Yeah, and I think that is thatwas really what we're talking
about here, because it's waymore than just weight, our body.
We're way more than what weweigh, what size we are.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
I think that's the lie, though, is our worth is
connected either to performanceor our worth is connected to
weight.
That can also often be the lie,right, our achievements and how
we look, because that's alloutward yeah, Right.
What do you have to offer?
Right, you know, and so I thinkit's really important that we
understand.
Yeah, there's so many parts toit other than just a weight.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
So okay, so as a, as a counselor, I mean you see kids
with eating disorders, youtreat them, say we have a parent
at home and they haven'tnoticed extreme weight loss or
weight gain and haven't noticedextreme weight loss or weight
gain and they haven't.
The kid is not sharing it withthe parents.
Okay, so we don't have an endto start talking about it.
(17:24):
So it is kind of awkward tojust bring it up.
Sure, what is your best pieceof advice for parents in that
situation?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I mean, obviously the goal is always to be in tune
with our children, right?
Well, in there's a level ofstudying them, like kind of what
I said earlier.
Like they're saying they'rehungry and they're not eating.
It could just be as simple ashelp me understand.
Hey, I've just noticed you'vebeen saying you're hungry a lot
and I'm making dinner, butyou're not eating.
Can you help me understandwhat's going on with that?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Cause sometimes they don't know how to advocate.
They really want somebody tonotice I'm not well.
So it's this like one foot inthe dark and one foot, please
help me.
Yeah, Right, Cause normally itstarts with both feet in the
dark and then it starts gettingto this place where it's kind of
scary, right when they're likeOoh, this is getting slippery
slope.
It's really just kind of not,because oftentimes we may, you
(18:15):
know, come across as accusatory.
I think help me understand isjust a really good.
Keep the walls down, right,Like where somebody doesn't get
defensive.
Or hey, I'm confused about this, right, You're, you're seeking
understanding, You're notaccusing or anything.
Or you know what I have beennoticing, um, you know you're
(18:36):
eating in your room, more youknow, and you're not out here
with a family, you know issomething going on or has
something shifted, you know.
And so that tells that childlike, oh, my mom's noticing, she
sees me, she can tell thatsomething's off.
And so I think oftentimes we dohave to push in, but we have to
(18:56):
do it in a way that doesn'tcreate that child to be
defensive or feel like we'recoming after them or that
they're in trouble.
Yeah, but we also have to bewilling to go to that hard place
too.
If they're pretty dug in andthey're like I'm fine, Nothing's
wrong, we have to be ready to,um, you know, have those hard
conversations of you know what?
I've actually been outside thebathroom door and I've been
(19:19):
hearing you throw up, or I'vebeen noticing you stuffing food
in napkins, Like there comes toa place where we just have to
call it what it is, becausethat's loving.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I love this because, you know, in the comments of
course I chimed in with whatabout eating disorders and all
of that?
But but what was really amazingwas people were sharing their
stories, their vulnerablestories, and you know, one
person chimed in.
I didn't know who she was, butbut she said I'm.
You know.
I'm glad you said this becauseI suffered with an eating
(19:50):
disorder and nobody spoke up forme.
Yeah, and it was almost likeshe.
I'm not, I don't want to speakfor her, but but what I
interpreted that was like shedidn't feel seen and she was
struggling and nobody advocatedfor her.
Right, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
And.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I think that's where we have to be super careful
telling parents, like, don'ttalk about that or don't do that
because we do internalize thatand it's off limits somehow.
Even if it's in a generalcontext of our parents screwed
this up.
We have to be very careful withthis topic and eating disorders
look different.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Right Like anorexia and bulimia used to be the
go-tos, right Now it'sorthorexia, where kids are
getting praised.
It's extreme clean eating.
I only eat organic, I only eatsalads, right, and so you see
them eating.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And that's people don't think of that as an eating
disorder.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Dive into that a little bit more for me.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Because, sometimes we're like oh that's a healthy
habit Right.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
But when does it?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
become extreme Right, and I think it's just, you know
, when it becomes veryrestrictive right.
Like obviously there's moremedical things going on, like
gluten and celiac, like there'smore awareness around that stuff
.
So some people truly like thatis medically how they need to
have their diet Right.
But then there's the otherextreme too, where, yeah, it's
extreme eating.
Like you know, I'm not going toeat the cake, or I won't eat
(21:05):
anything if it's not organic, oryou know, I'm really good about
just eating this protein.
There's so many different dietsout there too.
And so for growing kids, like Ido think there is a fine line of
not there's just education, Ithink there's just education to
how you need to educate yourkids.
Like there's not good foods andbad foods, right.
(21:27):
Too much of anything is notgood, Right.
And so kind of teaching kids tobe in tune with their body,
right, we eat when we're hungry.
We stop when we're full,because, you know, another
eating disorder is just bingeeating, where kids are
overeating and we've seen thependulum swing.
On the other word, like allbodies are acceptable, which for
(21:47):
somebody who has struggled withweight, like yeah, I am glad
that sizes look different thanthey did when I was a kid Cause
I remember having to shop likein the guy section.
Sometimes it is still one ofthose things where I think that
we have to educate our childrenon what healthy habits look like
and what a healthy relationshiplooks like with food.
So sometimes it starts with us,because we don't have a good
(22:10):
relationship with our body andour food habits, and other times
it comes to we're so scaredthat we're like but if I say
this, are they going to thinkI'm shaming them?
And so I think it's just reallybeing mindful and discerning on
how to have those conversations.
But just in general, so if youhave one kid who's really
struggling, you know we're goingto maybe just change what
(22:31):
family dinners look like.
We're not going to focus onthat, just one child.
It's like hey, guys, like Itried this new recipe, or we're
going to start family walks orwhatever it looks like.
There's just ways that we canjust incorporate healthy habits
to maybe not single one personout, but just as a family like,
yeah, we should be more mindfulor have conversations.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Well, and I think too , we see a lot in this
generation like they're justrotting on their phones all the
time, Exactly, and so you know alot of the unhealthy stuff.
Sometimes it's just aboutmoving and it's not really
anything to do with your body.
This is about your mind too,and having those you know and
like, if you're up rotting,scrolling on your phone all
(23:11):
night, you're, you're probablynot going to be at your
healthiest mentally, physically,anything Exactly and so attack
it from the street.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Logical, right.
This isn't like emotional, thisisn't attackable, like take all
emotions out of it, right?
What kid do you think is goingto feel better?
You know one that went to bedat a decent time, that you know.
Not even comparison, but justlook at it logically, right,
like a child who's up till twoin the morning on a screen and
they've been on the screen sincethey got out of school Like,
(23:42):
obviously that child is notgoing to feel his best, compared
to a child who you know, playedoutside for a bit, did their
homework, ate dinner, hadappropriate screen time, but at
a different time.
There's just a better waysometimes and it doesn't have to
be personal there's just abetter way sometimes.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And it doesn't have to be personal.
There is just a better waysometimes, you know.
Just going back to what yousaid about the, the eating
disorder, what did you call it?
Orthorexia, orthorexia.
Yeah so that is like healthyeating total yes.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
I think people working out is connected to that
too.
So you're working out, it'sjust ultra healthy, but again
it's that extreme.
And I think that is such a goodpoint there, because it's good,
that's good that you're doingthat and you're getting praised
on self-control and you'regetting praised on those habits.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
And oh, my word, you look great You're disciplined?
Yes, you're disciplined, but itcan come to a point where you
spend more time countingcalories and looking at labels
than you do living your life,and that's when it gets kind of
off balance.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
And I think what we have to be careful here is
nobody wakes up and says I'mgoing to start eating disorder
today it's a nine out of 10.
It starts with good intentions.
Just let me change things up.
And then it gets extreme, right, because people say start
noticing like, oh, you've lostweight, looks so great.
Well, how did I look before?
I lost weight?
Right?
(25:02):
People are noticing me now more, but they didn't comment like
that before.
So it starts to mess with yourmind and that's why we have to.
That talking is so important,right, and just helping anytime,
like our kids are saying youknow, if you do have a child
that's overweight and they're inan unhealthy situation and they
say I really need to work onbeing more healthy, right,
(25:23):
they're coming to you.
Just be mindful, as you startgetting healthy, right, that
you're having the correctconversations and you're
monitoring it because lots oftimes something like I said
starts off well-meaning andreally good, because there are
kids who get to a place wherethey're like, you know what, I
don't feel good in my body, andthat's them being in tune, and
that's not a bad thing, yeah,but we just have to help them
(25:45):
walk through.
What does healthy weight losslook like?
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Well, and that goes back to taking care of a
treasure your body is a temple,like managing and stewarding
that well.
I think are all really goodconversations.
I also just want to point out,you know, I mean I'm guilty of
this.
I think of eating disorders, Ithink of girls, and I think it's
normal.
I mean, most of the girls aresuffering from eating disorders.
(26:10):
But you know, I'm raising a boy,teen boy he's an athlete and
it's constantly more protein,more calories, more whatever.
And again I'm talking to himabout hey, you're able to eat
5,000 calories right now becauseyou've got a lot of energy that
you're burning and muscle thatyou're going, but you can't eat
(26:34):
5,000 calories when you're myage.
Yes, but like you can't eat5,000 calories when you're my
age, and like I will say to himif I ate 5,000 calories I would
be really overweight, and not ingood health, like not, not even
so, not worried about my body,not in good health.
And so you know, maybe that'sright, maybe that's wrong, but I
really take an open doorapproach to that because I don't
(26:57):
want him to think this is hishabit for the rest of his life.
You can't eat 5,000 caloriesfor the rest of your life, and
it's not anything about his body.
I feel like it's more likescientific biological To me.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
what pops into my head?
That's just education.
I'm just understanding, likewhen you're an athlete, this is
what you need.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Right, and when you're not, it's going to look
different, and so you're not.
It doesn't sound like you'reputting this huge emphasis on it
, but it was definitely aconversation, so it's not this
repeated thing like every day.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Hey, just remember, I think we talked about it once,
for 10 minutes Exactly.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Right, and so I think it's like when kids hear things
like over and over, it's like,oh, like that's starting that
neural pathway.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
That's the problem with the body is shaming.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Right, but if it's more just an educational piece
and it's just a goodconversation.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I think that is very healthy, yeah.
And then we move on Right anddon't dwell on it.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Don't nag your kid about their weight, don't you
know?
Of course, my daughter saidsomething on one of the recent
shows.
She said shame is not a goodtactic for anything.
And that has stuck in my mindand I think parents, sometimes
we feel like we can shame ourkids into something Absolutely
(28:11):
Even.
I see that a lot with, likenon-disciplined kids or kids
that are struggling in school.
Well, you know, I'm just goingto put the hammer down and
they're not going to have this,this and this until they get all
A's.
Well, I don't know if that'sthe approach.
Maybe talk about why are youstruggling?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Why do you think you're struggling in school?
I mean, it could be somethingthat they're struggling with.
With their eyes, they can't seesomething right.
It could be an attentionCompletely.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I mean, it could be lots of different things.
Right, and I think that justgoes back to being in tune,
right, because the kids learnlike oh, you'd like me when I'm
a red car, I'll pretend I'm ared car, right, that doesn't
change anything about the car,you just put new paint on it.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
And so I think you want to love you.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
No matter what Right Exactly Like we'll work through
it.
Yeah, so I think it's.
It's being a safe person.
I think because, like these arejust this is the tale as old as
time, right, weightrelationships with bodies right,
we've seen it go so manydifferent cycles and it really
just comes down to relationalLike moms and daughters, sons,
(29:07):
moms, dads, sons, all of it Likethese are just this is a normal
part of life to have theseconversations.
Food is such a huge part of ourlife.
Yeah, we got to shop for it.
We got our life.
Yeah, we got to shop for it.
We got to put it away.
We got to cook it.
We got to clean up from it.
It's around so many things.
So, like it should not be ataboo thing.
We just just like we shouldhave a healthy relationship with
(29:30):
food.
We should also have a healthyrelationship having
conversations around it.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, okay.
I want to ask you one morething.
Tell me, as a counselor, youthink, mandy, you're right,
you're not right, or?
you know, maybe I'm both maybeI'm both.
So you've got a kid goingthrough puberty and either
they're going through at a highrate of speed, like faster than
everybody else, or they're verydelighted, and each kid's going
to be different on that, even inyour own family, and so if you
(29:56):
see your kid when I was walkingthrough all that, it's not
something that I wouldconstantly point out or anything
like that, but if my kidsstarted to talk about it, well,
this person has this and I don'tor they have that and they're
getting noticed and I don'tAgain.
Those were the conversationsthat I would sweep in and be
(30:17):
like okay, there's absolutelynothing wrong with you.
Yeah, everybody's going throughpuberty and each person is
different and they mature atdifferent times.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Love that.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
So just because you're not maturing right now
like all of these people, thatdoesn't mean anything is wrong
with you Absolutely, you have totrust God's timing on that,
right, exactly, and also howhe's designed you there.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
They trust God's timing on them, right, exactly,
and also how he's designed you.
There are just going to becertain things we can't change.
Like you know, your daughter'stall, my daughters are going to
be tall Like I'm 5'11", myhusband's 6'8".
Sorry, genetics.
Like this is your reality,right, yeah.
And so there's a level ofyou're right, like they can't
change their height, and how youget proportioned and how you go
(30:56):
through puberty and where youput on weight and where you
don't.
Right.
There is a level of notcomparing but also just
accepting.
This is my journey with my bodyright.
Accepting yourself.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yes exactly and honestly, jamie I think this
also goes into, like kids whostruggle with their gender
there's there's, there's a,there's an acceptance there of
you may feel these qualities andyou can have those qualities.
I mean, it's cool if you're adude and you love baking, you
know pink or whatever thestereotypical boxes that we put
(31:31):
people in, but it's almost likethis.
We we've gotten into the habitof not loving ourself the way we
are If we're big bones if we'reif we're tall if we're
whatever color hair we have we,we live in this like drive
through society where if I don'tlike my eyes, I change them.
If I don't like my hair, Ichange them.
If I don't like this, I'm goingto change them.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
You know you use that word earlier shame.
And I think that is such apowerful tool of the enemy
because anytime you look ataddiction or change, what I
always say is let's just go withthe need disorder, right,
that's.
That's an addiction, right?
It's not the problem, it's thesolution.
And essentially, is you feelshame, so you want to get as far
(32:17):
away from yourself as possible.
So how do we get far away aspossible?
I'm going to transform myself,I'm going to look different, I'm
going to get drunk, I'm goingto get high it's anything that
takes you away from your shame,right.
And so an addiction or genderconfusion, all that right.
(32:37):
Oftentimes it is not theproblem, it's the solution To a
deeper problem.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yes, right, like maybe some so unresolved trauma,
or I'm numbing myself for this,or or I just don't like who I
am and the narrative is going onin the brain that you are not.
You are not enough.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
And I mean, that's what it is.
You are not enough, Absolutely,and we also just have to really
look.
Even this could be a wholedifferent podcast with, like,
just you know, going back to theeating disorders, but like,
let's not overlook any level oftrauma either, because trauma
and eating disorders go hand inhand, and so that's, that's a
deeper question, right, um, itcould be the society we live in,
(33:20):
right?
Where then, is you know, um,what's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
You know my worst accepted yeah, or it's just kind
of like it's praised, I guess.
Right, right, idolized, that'sthe word.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Right.
So when we idolize stuff right,sometimes it truly is like we
want to become that because it'slike, oh, that's idolized,
right.
But sometimes it's rooted insomething deeper.
So we want to be reallyprayerful that we're not
overlooking something, becausesometimes it can be, or we want
to go to something that'sidolized, or sometimes it's.
We're working through atraumatic experience and it's
(33:58):
manifesting through an eatingdisorder.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
So good, so good.
There's so much to unpack here.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Is there anything else that you would want to say
on the topic of?
I mean, I know we can go deeperinto trauma- and eating
disorders, but on this show,like just this general show,
body image or eating disorders,anything you want to throw out
there to parents.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
I really think, just you know, we've covered an array
of different things right,which I think is good, because
just I think everyone there's atakeaway in here for everyone,
and I think we've touched on alot of things that kids are
dealing with, and so my takeawayis just have conversations
about it, just like we're doingright now.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Healthy healthy.
Non-shaming, non judgmental.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Don't call out your kid's weight, obviously, but
talk about their bodies.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Yeah, talk about their bodies and make sure that
you're in a place to them.
So this may be promptingsomebody to say, okay, what, if?
What have I projected?
What have I modeled?
Or why do I feel uncomfortablelistening to this?
Or even if we're kind of likejudgy or walling up, like I
don't agree with that, right,sometimes it's because it's it's
(35:09):
hitting a tender point with usor an on heel point.
So I would even just encouragelisteners to really take a deep
dive into their own relationshipwith their body and their
history with food.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Look in the mirror.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Look in the mirror and we spill that over to our
kids, not realizing itcompletely.
And that's where it gets sotoxic, yes, so toxic, and I
think that was probably in theintent of the original host for
sure, but I'm glad we were ableto dive into it.
I'm glad you came on the showbecause I just from a licensed
professional counselor and amama girl mom, you're juggling
(35:42):
all this too and I think that itwas a really helpful insight.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm on the journey.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
I'm on it with y'all, like yes, and I feel like every
mom I mean I don't want tospeak for dads, but I feel like
every mom has a body journey,Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
I mean, we've had babies.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I'm in now, you know, menopause, which is a whole
other beast to manage on how mybody is changing, right and
medical stuff yeah.
Yeah, but I'm even talking tomy daughter.
She's getting ready to be 21.
I'm even talking to her aboutwhat I'm going through with
menopause.
Yeah, just in the sense of notcomplaining or not, you know,
(36:24):
making fun of myself.
But like, this is an ongoingjourney of getting to know
myself.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
And loving me, no matter what.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Yeah, and I think you're just showing her
vulnerability and you're showingher that, like, this isn't a
taboo subject, right, you'rejust normalizing it Our bodies
are going to change over timeand we need to talk about it
Amen.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Okay, thanks for being here, jamie.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Next Talk is a 501c3 nonprofit keeping kids safe
online.
To support our work, make adonation at nexttalkorg.
Next Talk resources are notintended to replace the advice
of a trained healthcare or legalprofessional, or to diagnose,
treat or otherwise render expertadvice regarding any type of
medical, psychological, legal,financial or other problem.
You are advised to consult aqualified expert for your
(37:09):
personal treatment plan.
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